1 2010-09-23 00:17:14 <redengin> grrr, why does bitcoin draw out the econ-crazies
  2 2010-09-23 00:18:48 <LobsterMan> what do you mean?
  3 2010-09-23 00:20:01 <redengin> ppl worried about bank runs and monetary policy and all sorts of things they have poor understanding of to begin with
  4 2010-09-23 00:20:24 <LobsterMan> just smile and nod at their ramblings lol
  5 2010-09-23 00:54:16 <dwdollar> I'm questioning and thinking out loud.  I don't see why any of this is crazy talk.  If the economists are so smart, who wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.
  6 2010-09-23 00:54:48 <redengin> and why do you believe that?
  7 2010-09-23 00:55:00 <dwdollar> Believe what?
  8 2010-09-23 00:55:06 <dwdollar> That we're in a mess?
  9 2010-09-23 00:55:09 <redengin> metereologists are smart people, why don't they control the weather
 10 2010-09-23 00:56:00 <dwdollar> They can predict it better than an economist can predict the market.
 11 2010-09-23 00:56:26 <dwdollar> IMO...
 12 2010-09-23 00:59:06 <redengin> well the market is even more difficult, since its not just physics, but full of irrational behaviors
 13 2010-09-23 00:59:43 <redengin> but thats the fun of it, you can learn the markets and then figure out how to use your own predictions
 14 2010-09-23 01:02:35 <dwdollar> How can I demand something I already own?  Is that possible?
 15 2010-09-23 01:02:52 <dwdollar> I'm asking... I don't know...
 16 2010-09-23 01:03:59 <dwdollar> Are people withdrawing funds from their own account really demanding USD?
 17 2010-09-23 01:04:11 <dwdollar> It's already theirs...
 18 2010-09-23 01:04:14 <redengin> yes, thats why they are on demand accounts
 19 2010-09-23 01:04:15 <dwdollar> Or suppose to be.
 20 2010-09-23 01:04:44 <redengin> your supposition is that the bank is some not-for-profit wealth storage locker
 21 2010-09-23 01:05:21 <dwdollar> But that's how must people see it...
 22 2010-09-23 01:06:07 <dwdollar> Especially if it's 'insured'
 23 2010-09-23 01:07:09 <redengin> you're putting together so many different terms that you are confusing the issue
 24 2010-09-23 01:07:27 <dwdollar> hehe...
 25 2010-09-23 01:07:35 <dwdollar> Yeah probably.
 26 2010-09-23 01:08:29 <redengin> I'm guessing this is related to our forum conversation on bank runs.  there have been recent bank runs, and the ppl got their money
 27 2010-09-23 01:08:54 <redengin> there is adequate supply to meet the temporary irrational uprising
 28 2010-09-23 01:09:10 <dwdollar> irrational uprising???
 29 2010-09-23 01:09:57 <redengin> what do all these bank runners do with their suitcase full of dollars?!    I would guess they wait a few days then put it bank into the system
 30 2010-09-23 01:11:57 <dwdollar> Is that so bad?  It is their money after all.
 31 2010-09-23 01:13:00 <redengin> its just irrational, their strain on the system did no good to anyone
 32 2010-09-23 01:15:57 <dwdollar> Maybe the supporters of central banking are irrational for believing it can work indefinitely.
 33 2010-09-23 01:17:17 <redengin> I think if you research it you'll find its a much more stable system than others
 34 2010-09-23 01:19:33 <dwdollar> If the USD survives the next 50 years I might believe you.
 35 2010-09-23 01:26:08 <redengin> what do you plan to do if it doesn't?
 36 2010-09-23 01:26:23 <MacRohard> use bitcoins maybe :P
 37 2010-09-23 01:26:28 <redengin> lol
 38 2010-09-23 01:26:52 <MacRohard> there's no way the us dollar will survive in it's present form
 39 2010-09-23 01:27:10 <MacRohard> i dunno what they'll do about it though
 40 2010-09-23 01:27:18 <redengin> what "form"?
 41 2010-09-23 01:27:30 <dwdollar> Hopefully I'll have enough Bitcoins, gold, and silver by then.
 42 2010-09-23 01:28:21 <MacRohard> redengin, well.. a currency backed by cia drug dealing and military interventions
 43 2010-09-23 01:28:44 <dwdollar> Bitcoins may not exist in their current form, but I think the basic idea is a major development.
 44 2010-09-23 01:28:45 <MacRohard> then again, maybe it won't be so different heh
 45 2010-09-23 01:29:47 <MacRohard> bitcoin is a fantastic idea.. you could do the same thing in a way that leaves the fiat door open though
 46 2010-09-23 01:30:00 <MacRohard> a skeleton key for the central bank to use
 47 2010-09-23 01:30:34 <MacRohard> they could just upload the federal reserves books into a fresh controlled bitcoin and set it loose
 48 2010-09-23 01:31:41 <MacRohard> but then again why not just settle transactions in a big central database
 49 2010-09-23 01:32:13 <dwdollar> hehe... yeah.  Easier for them to manipulate.
 50 2010-09-23 01:32:37 <MacRohard> make it cheap enough and you get most of the major benefits of bitcoin without giving up control
 51 2010-09-23 01:32:50 <MacRohard> meh
 52 2010-09-23 01:33:28 <MacRohard> i'm interested to see there's now a russian bitcoin exchange
 53 2010-09-23 01:33:40 <MacRohard> might help decouple bitcoin from paypal
 54 2010-09-23 01:33:54 <dwdollar> I think we scared redengin off?
 55 2010-09-23 01:35:06 <MacRohard> we just need venezuelan and iranian exchanges
 56 2010-09-23 01:35:23 <MacRohard> they might actually want ot use it given the general lack of available payment services
 57 2010-09-23 01:46:51 <Keefe> that might be just asking for the usgov to try to interfere with bitcoin
 58 2010-09-23 01:47:28 <MacRohard> they haven't had much success against other p2p apps
 59 2010-09-23 01:47:51 <Keefe> haven't tried hard enough. haven't cared quite enough
 60 2010-09-23 01:47:58 <MacRohard> perhaps
 61 2010-09-23 01:48:17 <Keefe> but control over money is far more important to them than the music industry hurting
 62 2010-09-23 01:48:39 <MacRohard> yeah i agree with that
 63 2010-09-23 02:11:17 <second> yeah I'm ok with the archive, but i'm not clicking the link :P
 64 2010-09-23 02:11:32 <MacRohard> what's up with xe.net? shut down to cover up the dollar slide?
 65 2010-09-23 02:11:48 <MacRohard> nm. it's fine
 66 2010-09-23 02:12:09 <MacRohard> bit slow maye
 67 2010-09-23 07:57:28 <UukGoblin> hmm, iranian/iraqi/afghan exchange would be bloody awesome
 68 2010-09-23 08:05:08 <lfm> exchange of what?
 69 2010-09-23 08:05:27 <MacRohard> reals and dinars for bitcoins
 70 2010-09-23 08:05:46 <MacRohard> maybe street level fx dealers could start selling bitcoins too
 71 2010-09-23 08:06:23 <lfm> you think we could give them a common currency? ya, awsome but Id say dont hold your breath
 72 2010-09-23 08:06:52 <MacRohard> i think iranians might be interested because of the general difficulty they have sending payments of any kind
 73 2010-09-23 08:07:13 <lfm> you mean sending international paym,ents?
 74 2010-09-23 08:07:15 <MacRohard> iraq and afghanistan don't really have that problem since they're now us colonies with pretty good acces to the reular financial system
 75 2010-09-23 08:07:19 <MacRohard> right yes
 76 2010-09-23 08:09:03 <lfm> seems it would need someone inside to exchange bitcoins for their local currencies
 77 2010-09-23 08:10:16 <MacRohard> right
 78 2010-09-23 08:10:38 <MacRohard> like mtgox, bitcoinexchange and the new russian webmoney one
 79 2010-09-23 08:10:47 <lfm> I wouldn't wanna be that person
 80 2010-09-23 08:11:01 <MacRohard> why not?
 81 2010-09-23 08:11:43 <MacRohard> it seems like it would be a good new product for fx small fx/money transfer businesses to offer
 82 2010-09-23 08:12:10 <lfm> in iran say, exchangeing iran currency for some forein devil computer money! I dont even think theyd bother to make up a law to arrest you on it
 83 2010-09-23 08:12:28 <MacRohard> the govt might like it
 84 2010-09-23 08:13:17 <lfm> might just as well tell their givt to start using us$
 85 2010-09-23 08:13:31 <lfm> govt
 86 2010-09-23 08:13:59 <MacRohard> bitcoin isn't usd
 87 2010-09-23 08:14:33 <lfm> tell iranian beaurocrats that bitcoin isnt tied to us$
 88 2010-09-23 08:15:08 <MacRohard> i don't know how they'd react, but neither do you and it seems like you have some presumptions that may not be valid
 89 2010-09-23 08:16:50 <lfm> maybe. Maybe Iran doesnt really care if their people adopt decadent us centric internet ideas. I have a impression they do care
 90 2010-09-23 08:17:27 <MacRohard> that's because you get your informaiton about iran from zionist cotnrolled us media ;)
 91 2010-09-23 08:17:33 <MacRohard> (probably
 92 2010-09-23 08:18:17 <lfm> yes largely from us media.
 93 2010-09-23 08:19:47 <lfm> seems they are quite capable of creating their own biases without need to resort to zionist control tho
 94 2010-09-23 08:19:57 <MacRohard> bitcoin might actually be sharia compliant ;)
 95 2010-09-23 08:20:44 <lfm> you mean like how their banks arnt spozed to charge interest?
 96 2010-09-23 08:21:11 <MacRohard> yeah and how payments have to be in gold for some things
 97 2010-09-23 08:21:18 <MacRohard> i'm no expert
 98 2010-09-23 08:21:53 <MacRohard> it might be worth asking a technologically knowledgeable cleric to express an opinion about it
 99 2010-09-23 08:22:13 <lfm> that would be interesting
100 2010-09-23 09:07:58 <Keefe> i sent btc using the rpc command sendtoaddress, 50 minutes ago, yet it still says 0/unconfirmed
101 2010-09-23 09:08:23 <Keefe> 9 blocks have been generated by the net since then
102 2010-09-23 09:09:02 <Keefe> do i have to keep waiting? or might something have gone wrong with my client?
103 2010-09-23 09:10:05 <ArtForz> just wait a bit more, when a TX doesn't get into the next block the client waits between 30 and 60 minutes before resending it
104 2010-09-23 09:10:06 <Keefe> it's like the txn wasn't distributed so none of the nodes who generated the last 9 blocks published my txn
105 2010-09-23 09:10:33 <Keefe> ah, thx ArtForz
106 2010-09-23 09:13:30 <ArtForz> you can check debug.log for ResendWalletTransactions()
107 2010-09-23 09:16:24 <Keefe> nice. i see it did that ~20min ago
108 2010-09-23 09:16:43 <ArtForz> you shound see the TX going out to other nodes right after that
109 2010-09-23 09:16:53 <Keefe> no blocks have been generated by the net since, so probably the next block will include my txn
110 2010-09-23 09:17:01 <ArtForz> ahh, probably
111 2010-09-23 09:18:46 <ArtForz> here 2 TX are queued for current block, 2b6dc532dffe98c6be7a and b788481533e2b46e9314
112 2010-09-23 09:19:54 <Keefe> ResendWalletTransactions()
113 2010-09-23 09:20:37 <ArtForz> yep, so it's queued
114 2010-09-23 09:20:41 <Keefe> so all's good. i've been watching more closely since i lost a block a couple days ago (guessing connection issues)
115 2010-09-23 09:21:25 <Keefe> 5 min agter generating a block, it realized someone else did 17 min prior
116 2010-09-23 09:21:58 <Keefe> after*
117 2010-09-23 09:22:30 <ArtForz> yea, that sucks
118 2010-09-23 09:29:12 <Keefe> that's odd. looks like i had 7 or 8 txns queued at the time you said you had 2
119 2010-09-23 09:30:05 <ArtForz> yep, turns out I lost connection :/
120 2010-09-23 09:31:11 <Keefe> so that's why we got no blocks for 35 minutes? :P
121 2010-09-23 09:32:18 <Keefe> how many hps are you doing now?
122 2010-09-23 09:33:10 <ArtForz> pretty close to 2Ghps
123 2010-09-23 09:33:42 <Keefe> targeting ~20% of the total as it grows?
124 2010-09-23 09:33:57 <ArtForz> yep
125 2010-09-23 09:34:09 <ArtForz> somewhere between 15 and 25%
126 2010-09-23 09:34:31 <lfm> Keefe, do you use any -addnode args on your client?
127 2010-09-23 09:34:38 <Keefe> no
128 2010-09-23 09:35:18 <Keefe> is that only for bootstrapping, or does it make it keep connected to them more aggressively long-term?
129 2010-09-23 09:35:31 <lfm> might help make better connections if you found one or two well connected nodes to hook into
130 2010-09-23 09:36:03 <Keefe> worth trying
131 2010-09-23 09:36:49 <Keefe> i couldn't determine whether my connection issue a couple days ago was my node being isolated from everyone, or whether there was a local netsplit
132 2010-09-23 09:37:15 <lfm> ya, if your isp is having trouble then theres not much you can do
133 2010-09-23 09:37:40 <Keefe> the latter seems unlikely, since i'm on a major isp in california usa
134 2010-09-23 09:37:45 <Keefe> verizon
135 2010-09-23 09:37:54 <Keefe> but i know it can happen to the best
136 2010-09-23 09:38:34 <lfm> well even big guys do things like maintainance and stuff, often in the middle of the night when they think fewer people are watching
137 2010-09-23 09:38:52 <Keefe> it was very close to midnight
138 2010-09-23 09:42:53 <lfm> its kinda funny, sometimes when I call em they first try to claim its my problem, then when they realize I might know more than them they express surpize that their own outfit is doing stuff they were not aware of till that very moment
139 2010-09-23 09:47:39 <Keefe> lol
140 2010-09-23 09:48:19 <UukGoblin> there /are/ fewer people watching in the middle of the night. :-)
141 2010-09-23 09:48:51 <Keefe> ya one of these days i'm going to have to call them about my dsl modem often not getting the sync rate it should. and i just know it will go like that. blame me, play ignorant, etc
142 2010-09-23 09:50:10 <UukGoblin> Keefe, probably first things they'll ask you to do is to connect to a test socket (if there is such thing in usa) and change the wires and microfilters. /me went through this process once, took about 2 weeks, but they finally fixed it
143 2010-09-23 09:50:12 <Keefe> sometimes it gets the top speed and nice snr margin, other times it's just awful
144 2010-09-23 09:50:12 <lfm> thats why they dont like to mention actual speeds much any more, they can then deliver anything they feel like
145 2010-09-23 09:50:21 <UukGoblin> (with bethere.co.uk, not verizon)
146 2010-09-23 09:50:50 <UukGoblin> Keefe, might be some interference too
147 2010-09-23 09:51:15 <lfm> UukGoblin, nope, the FIRST thing is they will ask you to reboot your computer
148 2010-09-23 09:51:30 <UukGoblin> "have you tried turning it off and then on again?"
149 2010-09-23 09:51:41 <ArtForz> I though it was power cycle the modem
150 2010-09-23 09:51:59 <lfm> are you running a virus scanner?
151 2010-09-23 09:52:06 <Keefe> ya, i have a "test" socket also, which to access disconnects the house, but connecting there doesn't seem to make a diff
152 2010-09-23 09:52:41 <ArtForz> pff, my ISP refuses to give me anything more than 3M/256k DSL because their holy DB says my line is crap
153 2010-09-23 09:53:27 <Keefe> 3/768 here, when it's working right
154 2010-09-23 09:53:29 <lfm> at the wrong end of your block?
155 2010-09-23 09:53:34 <ArtForz> pretty much
156 2010-09-23 09:53:53 <ArtForz> 2 techs measured the line, it'd be perfectly capable of >16M dsl2+
157 2010-09-23 09:54:05 <lfm> I only get 1m cuz Im too cheap to pay for more
158 2010-09-23 09:54:23 <ArtForz> hell, I already had 16M/1M dsl2+ for several months with decent SNR and no line problems
159 2010-09-23 09:54:32 <Keefe> have you been to the forums at dslreports?
160 2010-09-23 09:55:18 <ArtForz> until the DSLAM died, then it was back to 3M/256k
161 2010-09-23 10:02:39 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, is that 2ghps from gfx cards, or some servers you have?
162 2010-09-23 10:03:09 <ArtForz> gfx cards, 2 HD5970s and 4 HD5770s
163 2010-09-23 10:03:26 <UukGoblin> whoah
164 2010-09-23 10:03:31 <UukGoblin> that's... a lot then ;-)
165 2010-09-23 10:04:26 <ArtForz> the 5970 rocks, well over 650Mhash/s per card when overclocked
166 2010-09-23 10:05:08 <UukGoblin> cool
167 2010-09-23 10:06:24 <lfm> Id think theyr most likely quite warm
168 2010-09-23 10:08:52 <ArtForz> yep, dual 5970 is ~850W
169 2010-09-23 10:12:19 <UukGoblin> nice
170 2010-09-23 10:12:34 <UukGoblin> so I guess you'll need around 10,000 difficulty to make it stop being profitable ;-)
171 2010-09-23 10:12:39 <lfm> yup warm, not cool
172 2010-09-23 10:13:05 <UukGoblin> I mean, he has to keep them cool somehow ;-)
173 2010-09-23 10:13:22 <ArtForz> yeah, somewhere around that
174 2010-09-23 10:14:04 <lfm> UukGoblin, also kinda depends on the markets prices for bitcoins
175 2010-09-23 10:14:15 <ArtForz> CUDA mining will stop being profitable a lot earlier, so I'm not too worried
176 2010-09-23 10:14:16 <UukGoblin> lfm, yeah, but it's been pretty steady recently
177 2010-09-23 10:14:26 <doublec> is the gpu based client a modified version of the original or a rewrite?
178 2010-09-23 10:14:37 <ArtForz> well, kind of both
179 2010-09-23 10:14:57 <ArtForz> I replaced the miner in the stock client with a TCP server
180 2010-09-23 10:15:26 <ArtForz> and have standalone GPU miners connect to it
181 2010-09-23 10:15:38 <doublec> good idea - that way you don't have to redo all the protocol stuff
182 2010-09-23 10:15:38 <UukGoblin> yup
183 2010-09-23 10:16:05 <UukGoblin> the GPU miners just need some bytes from each block
184 2010-09-23 10:16:12 <ArtForz> yep
185 2010-09-23 10:16:13 <UukGoblin> which the stock client can generate
186 2010-09-23 10:16:36 <UukGoblin> and then they need to feed the resulting nonce back ;-)
187 2010-09-23 10:16:45 <ArtForz> yep
188 2010-09-23 10:17:13 <ArtForz> it also makes optimizing the miner a lot easier
189 2010-09-23 11:27:20 <Dybbuk> /me shakes his fist at the radio waves.
190 2010-09-23 11:27:23 <Dybbuk> Hey!
191 2010-09-23 11:27:33 <Dybbuk> Weird-ass IRC client.
192 2010-09-23 11:29:56 <bonsaikitten> weird ass-irc client? ;)
193 2010-09-23 11:30:12 <necrodearia> You put a space before /
194 2010-09-23 11:30:50 <necrodearia> heh, reminds me of the "weird ass-car" quotes
195 2010-09-23 11:31:23 <Dybbuk> I didn't put the space there.
196 2010-09-23 11:31:28 <Dybbuk> Something else did.
197 2010-09-23 11:31:45 <Dybbuk> Something nefarious.  It's...it's stegonography.
198 2010-09-23 11:31:59 <necrodearia> Spaces sometime like to appear from nowhere.  For example right now there is a space in front of me and the monitor that I am glancing at as I type this.  I have NO idea where it came from.
199 2010-09-23 11:32:04 <Dybbuk> That space contains 8 bits of mischief.
200 2010-09-23 11:38:48 <UukGoblin> pebkac
201 2010-09-23 11:41:13 <Dybbuk> These network issues are getting ridiculous.
202 2010-09-23 11:45:41 <UukGoblin> hehe
203 2010-09-23 11:46:06 <UukGoblin> I don't understand this new p2p payment system called ripple - and they don't even have an IRC channel
204 2010-09-23 11:46:33 <UukGoblin> what if someone says they owe you a $1000 in the system and then RIPple YOU OFF?
205 2010-09-23 11:53:22 <Dybbuk> Hey, somebody sent me a Bitpenny!
206 2010-09-23 11:53:28 <Dybbuk> I must have said something really clever.
207 2010-09-23 11:53:45 <edcba> ;faucet
208 2010-09-23 11:53:47 <bitbot> faucet is https://freebitcoins.appspot.com (Free Bitcoins) courtesy of gavin
209 2010-09-23 11:54:02 <nathan7> :o
210 2010-09-23 11:58:08 <RazielZ> I wonder if I could make money by buying and selling bitcoins
211 2010-09-23 11:58:10 <RazielZ> lulz
212 2010-09-23 12:01:51 <UukGoblin> RazielZ, if you do it properly, you probably could :-)
213 2010-09-23 12:02:31 <RazielZ> Hmmmm..
214 2010-09-23 12:02:49 <RazielZ> Buy games low, sellt hem low-ish but in bitcoins, exchange bitcoins for dollarrz, buy moar gamez, and so on...
215 2010-09-23 12:02:53 <RazielZ> that could actully work.
216 2010-09-23 12:03:06 <UukGoblin> games?
217 2010-09-23 12:03:12 <RazielZ> Yes games.
218 2010-09-23 12:03:16 <RazielZ> Computer games.
219 2010-09-23 12:03:19 <RazielZ> Well, more like cd-keys
220 2010-09-23 12:03:25 <UukGoblin> hm
221 2010-09-23 12:03:36 <UukGoblin> yeah, sounds like a plan ;-]
222 2010-09-23 12:03:45 <UukGoblin> if you can get them cheap ;-]
223 2010-09-23 12:05:19 <RazielZ> That depends on what people cosnider cheap
224 2010-09-23 12:05:20 <RazielZ> ._.
225 2010-09-23 12:07:29 <RazielZ> I can get bad comapny 2 for 350 bitcoins, if my calculations are correct
226 2010-09-23 12:08:10 <UukGoblin> you know there's biddingpond.com, right?
227 2010-09-23 12:08:28 <RazielZ> Uuuh
228 2010-09-23 12:08:31 <RazielZ> Yeah I just found out
229 2010-09-23 12:08:39 <UukGoblin> yw ;-)
230 2010-09-23 12:09:03 <RazielZ> Do people actually use it? It looks dead-ish
231 2010-09-23 12:09:17 <UukGoblin> it's not properly born yet
232 2010-09-23 12:09:22 <UukGoblin> and no, I don't think many people use it
233 2010-09-23 12:09:36 <niekie> Channel op count under minimum safety threshold... taking countermeasures, please stand by.
234 2010-09-23 12:09:44 <UukGoblin> but I think you'll be more likely to find potential buyers there than anywhere else I can think of
235 2010-09-23 12:10:06 <UukGoblin> niekie, I'm not sure exactly how freenode works, but can't we get ChanServ in here?
236 2010-09-23 12:10:19 <RazielZ> We can
237 2010-09-23 12:10:21 <RazielZ> I mean you can
238 2010-09-23 12:10:22 <RazielZ> xD
239 2010-09-23 12:10:23 <niekie> UukGoblin: the channel is already registered, by sirius-m.
240 2010-09-23 12:11:02 <niekie> Ask him, I guess.
241 2010-09-23 12:11:04 <UukGoblin> niekie, perhaps make a trade on bitcoinexchange and put "GET US THE CHANSERV BACK!!11" in the comment?
242 2010-09-23 12:11:11 <niekie> Lol.
243 2010-09-23 12:12:06 <UukGoblin> do you consider them evil, centrally-owned, and bank-like?
244 2010-09-23 12:12:18 <niekie> Nah.
245 2010-09-23 12:12:35 <UukGoblin> or do you simply have nothing to trade?
246 2010-09-23 12:12:38 <RazielZ> biddingbay could use a web designer
247 2010-09-23 12:12:40 <RazielZ> Or two
248 2010-09-23 12:12:45 <RazielZ> <.<
249 2010-09-23 12:12:50 <niekie> biddingpond? :P
250 2010-09-23 12:13:02 <RazielZ> yeah
251 2010-09-23 12:13:15 <RazielZ> It's because of the "forget the bay" thing
252 2010-09-23 12:13:15 <UukGoblin> RazielZ, I'm sure it'll get some once it gets more popular
253 2010-09-23 12:13:27 <UukGoblin> hey, at least it's not Comic Sans
254 2010-09-23 12:13:29 <niekie> UukGoblin: meh, I have no real opinion on them. Just never felt the need to use one.
255 2010-09-23 12:14:14 <RazielZ> isn't there a gpu bitcoin generator?
256 2010-09-23 12:14:16 <RazielZ> <.<
257 2010-09-23 12:14:23 <RazielZ> cpu just isn't making enough
258 2010-09-23 12:14:31 <RazielZ> 3600khash/s for shame
259 2010-09-23 12:14:37 <UukGoblin> I use them, but I do wonder what the IRS equivalent will think if my primary income will come from mt gox
260 2010-09-23 12:14:56 <UukGoblin> RazielZ, there certainly are, but I don't think there's any opensource one yet
261 2010-09-23 12:15:33 <RazielZ> I don't need it to be open source, I need it to work :D
262 2010-09-23 12:15:39 <UukGoblin> s/will come/comes/
263 2010-09-23 12:16:11 <UukGoblin> RazielZ, I'm also not sure if there are any open-binary ones freely available
264 2010-09-23 12:16:14 <UukGoblin> but there might be
265 2010-09-23 12:17:25 <RazielZ> Biddingpond's currency converter has two problems <.<
266 2010-09-23 12:17:39 <RazielZ> One is it doesn't have BTCs listed, and the second is, well, it doesn't seem to work with any currency anyway
267 2010-09-23 12:17:56 <RazielZ> I also can't find where to put my bitcin address x.x
268 2010-09-23 12:19:02 <RazielZ> bitcoin*
269 2010-09-23 12:19:22 <RazielZ> Oooh internet services category
270 2010-09-23 12:19:28 <RazielZ> I should offer a dedicated servurr.
271 2010-09-23 12:24:43 <RazielZ> ohwait maybe I should code for bitcoins
272 2010-09-23 12:24:48 <RazielZ> Except I suck, but I can lern <.<
273 2010-09-23 12:27:53 <UukGoblin> they all say they can learn... ;-]
274 2010-09-23 12:29:11 <UukGoblin> mullvad or something was offering dedicated servurrs for btc, weren't they?
275 2010-09-23 12:29:19 <UukGoblin> I guess some competition never hurt anyone
276 2010-09-23 12:30:34 <RazielZ> Yeah except I only actually have one.
277 2010-09-23 12:33:33 <Dybbuk> I should offer my really funny horse joke for BTC.
278 2010-09-23 12:33:40 <Dybbuk> Except that everybody would want a refund.
279 2010-09-23 12:34:15 <RazielZ> lol
280 2010-09-23 12:34:47 <UukGoblin> hm
281 2010-09-23 12:35:01 <UukGoblin> the only good joke I know wouldn't make much sense over IRC
282 2010-09-23 12:37:50 <nathan7> :o
283 2010-09-23 12:38:34 <nathan7> it surprises me every time, that I'm an op
284 2010-09-23 13:09:01 <UukGoblin> ok, existentional question
285 2010-09-23 13:09:15 <UukGoblin> why do you think $0.062, so precisely?
286 2010-09-23 13:09:42 <LobsterMan> just where the market deems one btc's worth lies at present?
287 2010-09-23 13:10:08 <UukGoblin> https://mtgox.com/trade/history the "All time" graph is really interesting
288 2010-09-23 13:10:14 <UukGoblin> it's like sin(x)/x
289 2010-09-23 13:11:07 <LobsterMan> hmm
290 2010-09-23 13:11:09 <UukGoblin> it seems to oscillate around $0.062
291 2010-09-23 13:11:19 <UukGoblin> fluctuating less and less
292 2010-09-23 13:11:31 <UukGoblin> just like this central value was somehow crucial
293 2010-09-23 13:11:38 <LobsterMan> maybe some of the bigger economic powers are covertly manipulating things here
294 2010-09-23 13:11:52 <UukGoblin> it's not exactly the price of power, is it?
295 2010-09-23 13:13:27 <LobsterMan> im not sure what the power rates are where i live
296 2010-09-23 13:13:35 <LobsterMan> i dont pay for my electric bill at present ^_^
297 2010-09-23 13:15:07 <UukGoblin> sounds like a perfect setup for generation ;-]
298 2010-09-23 13:15:42 <UukGoblin> I'm sure however that if you turn up with a $1k monthly bill your landlord won't be very happy
299 2010-09-23 13:16:21 <LobsterMan> i dont think it would be that easy to use that much power
300 2010-09-23 13:16:33 <UukGoblin> I wonder if having a significant economy (some mmorpg type of one) would change the market value at all
301 2010-09-23 13:18:06 <UukGoblin> hmm you'd need about 10kW by UK price... that's 45 amperes...
302 2010-09-23 13:18:18 <UukGoblin> yeah, not exactly easy without some nice damage to the wiring ;-]
303 2010-09-23 13:19:05 <LobsterMan> even running several video cards over the span of a month...
304 2010-09-23 13:19:22 <LobsterMan> i can imagine it would be more than a few hundred $
305 2010-09-23 13:41:21 <LobsterMan> warning: ISO C++ 1998 does not support 'long long'
306 2010-09-23 13:41:22 <LobsterMan> derp what
307 2010-09-23 13:41:46 <UukGoblin> nope, it doesn't
308 2010-09-23 13:42:03 <LobsterMan> is that a warning to be concerned about?
309 2010-09-23 13:42:17 <LobsterMan> boost has been tossing me 10's of those as i compilse
310 2010-09-23 13:42:21 <LobsterMan> compile*
311 2010-09-23 13:42:24 <UukGoblin> dunno, depends if you want to be worried about ISO C++ 1998 compliance
312 2010-09-23 13:42:30 <LobsterMan> meh not really
313 2010-09-23 13:42:38 <UukGoblin> oh.
314 2010-09-23 13:42:43 <UukGoblin> are you using long long at all?
315 2010-09-23 13:42:57 <UukGoblin> I'd suggest using int64_t or something like it instead
316 2010-09-23 13:42:59 <LobsterMan> i dont know lol
317 2010-09-23 13:43:04 <tree> I suggest it too
318 2010-09-23 13:43:06 <LobsterMan> i'm just trying to compile boost at present
319 2010-09-23 13:43:23 <UukGoblin> oh, if you're not a developer then it's OK to ignore it
320 2010-09-23 13:43:46 <LobsterMan> lolwut
321 2010-09-23 13:43:47 <UukGoblin> oh yeah?
322 2010-09-23 13:44:09 <LobsterMan> i like to think of myself as a novice developer :P
323 2010-09-23 13:44:16 <UukGoblin> s/a/the/
324 2010-09-23 13:44:17 <tree> LobsterMan: You develop novices?
325 2010-09-23 13:44:29 <LobsterMan> <_<
326 2010-09-23 13:44:38 <LobsterMan> stop twisting my words around!
327 2010-09-23 13:45:19 <LobsterMan> my goal at present is to build the gpu miner that puddinpop released the source to
328 2010-09-23 13:45:28 <LobsterMan> eventually to improve it ^_^
329 2010-09-23 13:45:36 <UukGoblin> puddinpop released the source?
330 2010-09-23 13:45:47 <UukGoblin> did people chip BTCs in to pay him?
331 2010-09-23 13:45:50 <LobsterMan> yeah
332 2010-09-23 13:45:54 <UukGoblin> cool
333 2010-09-23 13:45:56 <LobsterMan> 10k or some absurd amount
334 2010-09-23 13:46:09 <UukGoblin> whoah.
335 2010-09-23 13:46:29 <UukGoblin> cool.
336 2010-09-23 13:46:42 <UukGoblin> lfm will say it's warm, but nvmd him.
337 2010-09-23 13:53:27 <tree> UukGoblin: jgarzik paid all 10,000btc for the source to become open sourced
338 2010-09-23 13:54:56 <LobsterMan> yeah im trying to build it right now, gonna make sure his ransom routine is gone then im going to release a public package
339 2010-09-23 13:55:21 <UukGoblin> tree, whoah, all by himself? :-O
340 2010-09-23 13:55:25 <UukGoblin> that's a lot of money...
341 2010-09-23 13:55:52 <ArtForz> not really
342 2010-09-23 13:56:03 <LobsterMan> ArtForz how many btc do you have? :P
343 2010-09-23 13:56:38 <ArtForz> right now? 26550
344 2010-09-23 13:56:59 <LobsterMan> is that all from generating your own?
345 2010-09-23 13:57:04 <ArtForz> yup
346 2010-09-23 13:57:13 <LobsterMan> over how long a time period?
347 2010-09-23 13:57:22 <tree> UukGoblin: Of course
348 2010-09-23 13:57:38 <ArtForz> a bit over 9 weeks
349 2010-09-23 13:57:55 <tree> ;bcsell 26550btc total
350 2010-09-23 13:57:56 <bitbot> tree: Total amount for BTC26550 is $1528.04151025
351 2010-09-23 13:58:08 <ArtForz> I generated a lot more, sold off about 2/3
352 2010-09-23 13:59:14 <LobsterMan> so you've made a good few grand USD off this?
353 2010-09-23 13:59:22 <tree> Is it possible I can buy some friendly treants with Bitcoins?
354 2010-09-23 13:59:30 <ArtForz> so far, yup
355 2010-09-23 13:59:32 <LobsterMan> not bad :P
356 2010-09-23 13:59:33 <tree> Shweet!
357 2010-09-23 13:59:46 <tree> How many are left?
358 2010-09-23 14:00:56 <LobsterMan> treants, that's from.....warcraft3 isnt it?
359 2010-09-23 14:01:03 <tree> O_O
360 2010-09-23 14:01:19 <tree> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ent
361 2010-09-23 14:01:32 <LobsterMan> http://dota-addiction.blogspot.com/2009/05/rooftrellen-treant-protector.html
362 2010-09-23 14:01:33 <LobsterMan> :P
363 2010-09-23 14:02:25 <AAA_awright> Also a computer term for "tree-like"
364 2010-09-23 14:03:23 <tree> http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1797062&cid=33676382 may garnish some attention for Bitcoin.. Maybe
365 2010-09-23 14:03:42 <MacRohard> people still read /. ? ;)
366 2010-09-23 14:03:47 <LobsterMan> i do.....
367 2010-09-23 14:04:07 <MacRohard> i do when i'm reall bored and have read every other news site i read
368 2010-09-23 14:04:20 <tree> MacRohard: I think it's fairly obvious to recognize the answer to that question simply by revieing the large list of comments
369 2010-09-23 14:04:33 <tree> revieing == re virgin interactive entertainmenting
370 2010-09-23 14:12:59 <UukGoblin> hmm, is there a way to donate BTC to 'the network', reliably?
371 2010-09-23 14:13:17 <UukGoblin> say I made a transaction for 20 BTC with 20 BTC fee, to a dummy address
372 2010-09-23 14:13:35 <UukGoblin> that would then theoretically give the 20 BTC to the next person who generates a block
373 2010-09-23 14:13:39 <UukGoblin> BUT
374 2010-09-23 14:13:42 <UukGoblin> WHAT IF
375 2010-09-23 14:14:06 <UukGoblin> I found a block myself, with only my 20 BTC transaction in it
376 2010-09-23 14:14:25 <UukGoblin> so that the network would think I donated the money to the network, where in fact I merely given them to myself
377 2010-09-23 14:14:28 <tree> Best way to donate to the network reliably is by sending to address 1Gn26uRqEWYEgsMruEE3aRg6jRPDhm75Um
378 2010-09-23 14:14:54 <gavinandresen> That's easy; just stop generating blocks for ten minutes or so.
379 2010-09-23 14:15:04 <UukGoblin> I mean, I want it to be visible to every node that this donation was made (with some cryptographically signed message to show it's coming from me)
380 2010-09-23 14:15:38 <UukGoblin> I'd want to use it for something like captcha for creating an account
381 2010-09-23 14:15:55 <UukGoblin> but instead of solving captcha, you pay a certain amount of BTCs
382 2010-09-23 14:16:22 <UukGoblin> once you've paid and a system/website/game acknowledges it, you get your account
383 2010-09-23 14:16:51 <gavinandresen> ... and you want the payment to be to "the network"...
384 2010-09-23 14:17:07 <UukGoblin> yeah, in some undefined sense
385 2010-09-23 14:17:27 <UukGoblin> not to anyone in particular, basically, but to show that you've actually spent some money in order to get an account
386 2010-09-23 14:18:01 <gavinandresen> How bit a payment you thinking?  Just a couple of bit-cents?
387 2010-09-23 14:18:12 <UukGoblin> depends
388 2010-09-23 14:18:17 <UukGoblin> but rather small
389 2010-09-23 14:18:23 <UukGoblin> it's to stop spam effectively
390 2010-09-23 14:18:25 <gavinandresen> And can you generate a new BTC address every time?
391 2010-09-23 14:19:32 <UukGoblin> hm, ok, let me explain my idea more clearly: I'm thinking of a p2p mmorpg scenario. Creating a character shouldn't be too easy, so I think the easiest way is to make it cost money. But because the game is supposed to be decentralized, there's no-one to pay the money to.
392 2010-09-23 14:20:02 <UukGoblin> perhaps it could be sent to some players who've gained enough experience or whatever.
393 2010-09-23 14:20:04 <gavinandresen> A two-hop solution would probably work-- they send to a BTC address you give them, then that is, in turn, spent with a big transaction fee.
394 2010-09-23 14:20:35 <gavinandresen> (but you'd have to be left with at least a bit-penny paid to ... somebody...)
395 2010-09-23 14:20:50 <UukGoblin> hmm, but then you'd have to trust the p2p mmo client to do the job properly...
396 2010-09-23 14:21:14 <UukGoblin> I mean, consider someone paying a transaction with 100% of it going as a transaction fee, to whatever address he wants
397 2010-09-23 14:21:16 <gavinandresen> Ah, right, you're trying to be completely decentralized...
398 2010-09-23 14:21:29 <gavinandresen> But you can use the bitcoin network itself as a central authority.  Hmm.
399 2010-09-23 14:21:40 <UukGoblin> that'd almost work fine, except for people who'd want to cheat and generate the block for themselves
400 2010-09-23 14:22:01 <gavinandresen> Encouraging people to try to generate blocks is not a bad thing!
401 2010-09-23 14:22:09 <UukGoblin> and then the p2p mmo could verify the transaction by just checking the latest bitcoin block, seeing a transaction for the right amount and with a correct message in it
402 2010-09-23 14:22:17 <gavinandresen> ... and the cheaters would only succeed rarely, so that's probably OK.
403 2010-09-23 14:22:41 <UukGoblin> well, there is that.
404 2010-09-23 14:22:48 <UukGoblin> well actually yeah
405 2010-09-23 14:23:05 <UukGoblin> they might steal from the p2p mmo, but they will contribute towards bitcoin network instead
406 2010-09-23 14:23:17 <UukGoblin> goal achieved.
407 2010-09-23 14:25:55 <tree> http://is.gd/fp7f1
408 2010-09-23 14:26:26 <UukGoblin> y...eah, something like that
409 2010-09-23 14:27:24 <UukGoblin> so... another question is... can you send a transaction with a message that the whole network could see, not just the intended recipient?
410 2010-09-23 14:27:51 <UukGoblin> how are these messages stored, are they encrypted with the recipient's public key?
411 2010-09-23 14:35:00 <LobsterMan> ./boost/math/policies/error_handling.hpp: In function 'T boost::math::policies::detail::raise_evaluation_error(const char*, const char*
412 2010-09-23 14:35:02 <LobsterMan> oh lawd
413 2010-09-23 14:35:19 <LobsterMan> it really doesnt like that long long
414 2010-09-23 14:35:50 <UukGoblin> pastie the whole error message and the bit of code affected if you can plz
415 2010-09-23 14:36:13 <UukGoblin> (to pastie.org or somethin')
416 2010-09-23 14:36:17 <LobsterMan> it's just compile time warnings
417 2010-09-23 14:36:23 <LobsterMan> boost is still chugging along
418 2010-09-23 14:36:26 <LobsterMan> been going for about 2 hours now
419 2010-09-23 14:36:27 <LobsterMan> lol
420 2010-09-23 14:37:27 <gavinandresen> UUkGoblin: no, standard transactions cannot contain messages.
421 2010-09-23 14:38:07 <LobsterMan> if you send to an ip it can
422 2010-09-23 14:38:37 <gavinandresen> LobsterMan: no, the message isn't stored in the transaction if you send to IP (it is stored directly in the recipient's wallet)
423 2010-09-23 14:38:52 <LobsterMan> but it wont even let you send a message unless you send to ip
424 2010-09-23 14:39:11 <UukGoblin> sendtoaddress <bitcoinaddress> <amount> [comment] [comment-to]
425 2010-09-23 14:39:15 <UukGoblin> so what's that 'comment' about?
426 2010-09-23 14:39:16 <LobsterMan> it greys out the message box if you try to send to btc wallet address
427 2010-09-23 14:39:23 <LobsterMan> try it...
428 2010-09-23 14:39:31 <UukGoblin> and what about 'non-standard' transactions?
429 2010-09-23 14:40:06 <LobsterMan> i dunno but it will not allow you to send a message when sending to a btc address
430 2010-09-23 14:40:09 <LobsterMan> only when sending to an up
431 2010-09-23 14:40:10 <LobsterMan> ip
432 2010-09-23 14:40:11 <LobsterMan> *
433 2010-09-23 14:40:43 <gavinandresen> UukGoblin: there are three standard transactions:  a coin-generation transaction, and two variations on "send to a bitcoin address" (one's used by the send-to-ip function)
434 2010-09-23 14:41:07 <gavinandresen> None of them have messages in them, just addresses/signatures and amounts.
435 2010-09-23 14:41:42 <gavinandresen> RE: what does sendtoaddress ... [comment] [comment-to]  do:  I'd have to look at the code, but I think it just adds the comment to the SENDING side's wallet.
436 2010-09-23 14:41:53 <UukGoblin> right...
437 2010-09-23 14:42:06 <UukGoblin> I thought I read about it somewhere...
438 2010-09-23 14:42:35 <UukGoblin> probably the current implementation doesn't allow it, but I think I read that you could add arbitrary data to a transaction
439 2010-09-23 14:42:54 <en> UukGoblin: May I have op plese?
440 2010-09-23 14:43:07 <en> You can then call me op en
441 2010-09-23 14:43:36 <UukGoblin> en, you may not (at least not from me)
442 2010-09-23 14:43:52 <gavinandresen> UukGoblin: if you patch your bitcoin, you can create all sorts of wacky transactions.  There's a little expression evaluation language built-in to transactions...
443 2010-09-23 14:44:13 <gavinandresen> UukGoblin: but, as of a couple of patches ago, you'll have a hard time getting the rest of the network to put those weird transactions in blocks.
444 2010-09-23 14:44:34 <UukGoblin> ah yeah I vaguely recall someone asking about that change on the forum
445 2010-09-23 14:45:22 <UukGoblin> at that time when I read it (pre-0.3.10), I think the standard charge was 0.01BTC per 1kb of data
446 2010-09-23 14:45:54 <gavinandresen> UukGoblin: so getting back to the problem you want to solve:  you want to be able to verify that a transaction on the network was generated by a particular somebody...
447 2010-09-23 14:46:04 <UukGoblin> yes.
448 2010-09-23 14:47:22 <UukGoblin> if I can get arbitrary data into a transaction, that'd simply be someone's signature (using a private key) for instance of the last block's sha256sum.
449 2010-09-23 14:47:38 <ArtForz> well, a extra push(some_data); pop; shouldnt be a problem
450 2010-09-23 14:47:46 <UukGoblin> and then he could prove that it's him by signing further packets with his private key
451 2010-09-23 14:48:34 <UukGoblin> (also, well, I think it'd be fairly easy to convince satoshi to include such transactions in new versions if we had a mmorpg ;->)
452 2010-09-23 14:48:38 <gavinandresen> There's already a public/private key implicit in a transaction, so seems like you should be able to come up with a protocol so "they" prove that they have the private key corresponding to transaction XYZ
453 2010-09-23 14:48:51 <UukGoblin> it'd only create more incentive towards generating blocks
454 2010-09-23 14:49:07 <UukGoblin> gavinandresen, ah, see... that...
455 2010-09-23 14:49:17 <UukGoblin> gavinandresen, that might be even simplier!
456 2010-09-23 14:49:34 <UukGoblin> is your wallet's public key made public?
457 2010-09-23 14:49:52 <gavinandresen> No, just the base58(Hash160()) of it
458 2010-09-23 14:50:12 <gavinandresen> ... but part of the protocol could be "send me the public key corresponding to BTC address BLAH
459 2010-09-23 14:50:35 <UukGoblin> "could be" == "probably is"?
460 2010-09-23 14:50:57 <UukGoblin> or "could be" == "could probably be made to be"?
461 2010-09-23 15:01:20 <LobsterMan> ;target
462 2010-09-23 15:01:22 <bitbot> target is http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=target
463 2010-09-23 15:01:23 <LobsterMan> ;nr
464 2010-09-23 15:01:25 <bitbot> LobsterMan: CurrentBlockCount( 81,531 blocks ) CurrentDifficulty( 917.8309374400 ) NextDifficultyAt( 82,656 blocks ) NextDifficultyIn( 1,125 blocks )
465 2010-09-23 15:01:34 <LobsterMan> can you determine the current target?
466 2010-09-23 15:01:58 <UukGoblin> http://theymos.ath.cx:64150/q/hextarget
467 2010-09-23 15:03:11 <UukGoblin> LobsterMan, if you mathematically derive a formula using difficulty (and reference target which is 00000000ffff0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000), you can calculate it yourself
468 2010-09-23 15:07:55 <jgarzik> Changes to transaction fees: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=994.msg13829#msg13829
469 2010-09-23 15:07:59 <bitbot> Always pay transaction fee? : satoshi: I implemented this change in SVN rev 157.  The reason I previously made it so high was to allow very large transactions without hitting the transaction fee.  The threshold was around 26,000 BTC for transactions made of 50 BTC generated coins.  Even though it was 100 times easier to generate back then, only a few people ever enco...
470 2010-09-23 15:09:00 <UukGoblin> jgarzik, oooh
471 2010-09-23 15:09:22 <UukGoblin> jgarzik, before that takes place, I'd like to have an option to transfer money directly between wallets, thus encurring no fee
472 2010-09-23 15:10:03 <jgarzik> UukGoblin: you won't hit it unless you are doing a large transaction, comprised of many smaller generated transactions
473 2010-09-23 15:10:15 <UukGoblin> fair enough
474 2010-09-23 15:10:36 <ArtForz> of course you don't *have* to pay a fee
475 2010-09-23 15:10:38 <UukGoblin> I got confused by the 'Always pay transaction fee' topic, sorry
476 2010-09-23 15:12:12 <jgarzik> ArtForz: you do if the tx is large enough.  and "large enough" size just got lowered in SVN r157.
477 2010-09-23 15:12:15 <UukGoblin> it might be worth noting though, that before any serious transaction fees are required, there should really be an option to transfer money directly between two wallets
478 2010-09-23 15:13:04 <rnd_> I thought bitcoin generation happened when a hash with a certain leading zero bits was found? Or is that what  is meant by 'hash must be lower than the current target'? Lower numerically?
479 2010-09-23 15:13:06 <ArtForz> eexcept theres miners miners that don't require any fee except for the 0.01 for < 0.01 outputs
480 2010-09-23 15:14:35 <jgarzik> ArtForz: I'm pretty sure the "large transaction" rule has been in the code for quite a while
481 2010-09-23 15:14:43 <UukGoblin> :-)
482 2010-09-23 15:14:52 <jgarzik> ArtForz: obviously SVN r157 is new, so $SIZE change has not trickled out to the majority yet
483 2010-09-23 15:14:56 <UukGoblin> but ArtForz, owning a fair portion of the network, can choose not to upgrade ;-)
484 2010-09-23 15:15:15 <jgarzik> as long as he owns > 50%, that works
485 2010-09-23 15:15:23 <ArtForz> nope, anything >0% works
486 2010-09-23 15:15:41 <ArtForz> just takes longer for the Tx to get into a block
487 2010-09-23 15:16:12 <jgarzik> if the majority don't accept it, it will never make it into a block
488 2010-09-23 15:16:25 <ArtForz> even if it doesn't have enough fees normal clients still passon the TX, they just don't include it in blocks
489 2010-09-23 15:16:51 <jgarzik> yeah
490 2010-09-23 15:17:07 <UukGoblin> jgarzik, majority don't have to accept it... just one node needs to accept it in its block
491 2010-09-23 15:17:18 <ArtForz> so if theres a single client that doesn't require a TX fee, and that client finds a block, that tx is in a valid block
492 2010-09-23 15:17:33 <UukGoblin> I seriously doubt that clients will reject a block because of it having too low a transaction fee...
493 2010-09-23 15:17:37 <ArtForz> exactly
494 2010-09-23 15:17:51 <ArtForz> other clients dont check if "enough" fees were included in a valid block
495 2010-09-23 15:18:39 <ArtForz> why would they? asit rouns counter to the idea that miners can set their own min fees in the future
496 2010-09-23 15:19:00 <UukGoblin> exactly
497 2010-09-23 15:20:38 <UukGoblin> a funny situation could arise though... if someone makes a large transaction and decides to wait longer and not to pay a fee... and that 'longer' turns out to be way too long for him to be acceptable... he can't get the money back anymore, can he? he can be stuck waiting a century before his transaction gets accepted ;-)
498 2010-09-23 15:20:50 <ArtForz> actually he can
499 2010-09-23 15:21:04 <jgarzik> refundtransaction
500 2010-09-23 15:21:24 <ArtForz> theres special code for handling updating still-not-in-blockchain transactions
501 2010-09-23 15:21:27 <UukGoblin> oh, is that what this new feature is for?
502 2010-09-23 15:21:32 <UukGoblin> coooool
503 2010-09-23 15:21:37 <ArtForz> has been for a long while
504 2010-09-23 15:21:55 <UukGoblin> damn, satoshi has really thought of everything, hasn't he?
505 2010-09-23 15:23:23 <ArtForz> check main.cpp Transaction::AcceptToMemoryPool around the part // Allow replacing with a newer version of the same transaction
506 2010-09-23 15:24:07 <ArtForz> except it got disabled... wtf
507 2010-09-23 15:25:18 <ArtForz> got disabled in r140 ?!?
508 2010-09-23 15:25:54 <UukGoblin> just like that?
509 2010-09-23 15:26:19 <ArtForz> yea
510 2010-09-23 15:26:34 <ArtForz> commit log just says block index checking on load, extra redundant checks, misc refactoring
511 2010-09-23 15:27:38 <UukGoblin> I'm sure it's implemented somewhere else then...
512 2010-09-23 15:27:55 <ArtForz> doesn't look like it, added code is
513 2010-09-23 15:27:56 <ArtForz> // Disable replacement feature for now
514 2010-09-23 15:28:11 <UukGoblin> huh
515 2010-09-23 15:28:24 <ArtForz> ... yeah
516 2010-09-23 15:28:29 <UukGoblin> perhaps a bug was discovered?
517 2010-09-23 15:28:49 <UukGoblin> weird, but I have to go now, see you folks later
518 2010-09-23 15:29:20 <ArtForz> or more likely it's disabled as half of the feature is curently unimplemented (normal client can never create such a update transaction
519 2010-09-23 15:31:20 <ArtForz> if it werent disabled the requirements would be quite simple, TX has to have the same inputs as the old TX and it has to be newer
520 2010-09-23 15:33:06 <ArtForz> so you could change a bog TX like (loads of inputs) -> (all to X) to (same inputs) -> ((all-fee) to self)(leftover fee)
521 2010-09-23 15:47:01 <necrodearia> What is a reliable way to determine the current value in USD of Bitcoins?  Mt. Gox?  Bitcoin Market? Bitcoin Exchange?  BitcoinFX?  BitLex?   Other?
522 2010-09-23 15:47:18 <ArtForz> yes
523 2010-09-23 15:47:26 <necrodearia> heh
524 2010-09-23 15:48:35 <necrodearia> So http://bitcoin2cash.com/ 200 bitcoins == USD$1?
525 2010-09-23 15:48:45 <yebyen> reliable?
526 2010-09-23 15:48:49 <yebyen> i'm sure he will send it
527 2010-09-23 15:48:52 <necrodearia> hehe
528 2010-09-23 15:49:26 <necrodearia> Perhaps "reliable" is correct word then. =/
529 2010-09-23 15:49:31 <necrodearia> Perhaps "reliable" is not correct word then. =/
530 2010-09-23 15:50:18 <yebyen> what can you mean
531 2010-09-23 15:50:32 <yebyen> the exchange rate is correct if you can make the exchange
532 2010-09-23 15:50:48 <yebyen> if someone withdraws their bid/ask before you get the chance, it was incorrect
533 2010-09-23 15:51:05 <yebyen> all of the exchange sites pretty much work differently
534 2010-09-23 15:51:26 <necrodearia> mm
535 2010-09-23 16:27:37 <LobsterMan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY_iWeNffZg
536 2010-09-23 16:52:53 <Dybbuk> yebyen: It's probably safe to assume you can get about $0.06 per BTC at the moment.
537 2010-09-23 16:53:28 <yebyen> so for $1==200btc, necrodearia would have been getting ripped off
538 2010-09-23 16:53:33 <necrodearia> lies!
539 2010-09-23 16:54:03 <necrodearia> wait, nevermind
540 2010-09-23 16:54:20 <Dybbuk> I don't know.  If I got 200BTC for $1, I'd be pretty happy.
541 2010-09-23 16:54:40 <bitbot> My bot is crazy. I think I will replace it with a new one sometime soon.
542 2010-09-23 16:55:01 <yebyen> i won't be happy until i have monkeys with typewriters who accept phony BTC as payment to work on my craps table
543 2010-09-23 16:55:10 <yebyen> i'm generating a lot of phony BTC
544 2010-09-23 16:55:21 <yebyen> i'd say about 50 every 10 minutes
545 2010-09-23 16:56:40 <Dybbuk> Arg, I wish I had money in my LibertyReserve account.
546 2010-09-23 16:56:50 <Dybbuk> I wish getting money into my LR account wasn't such a HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS.
547 2010-09-23 16:56:58 <yebyen> what's LR all about?
548 2010-09-23 16:57:07 <Dybbuk> yebyen: I think it's about being annoying.
549 2010-09-23 16:57:21 <yebyen> i mean, is it exactly the same thing as paypal?
550 2010-09-23 16:57:29 <Dybbuk> But there is always such a disparity between LR prices and PayPal prices that you can make some good money.
551 2010-09-23 16:57:30 <yebyen> do they take routing numbers and account numbers
552 2010-09-23 16:57:59 <Dybbuk> yebyen: It's different.  I don't know enough about them to sound really smart about the whole thing, but it seems they are trying to be some kind of detached digital currency thing.
553 2010-09-23 16:58:38 <yebyen> does it use cpu cycles to counter artificial inflation?
554 2010-09-23 16:58:41 <yebyen> or cryptography
555 2010-09-23 16:59:44 <MacRohard> the problem with LR is it's a pain in the ass to get some
556 2010-09-23 16:59:47 <yebyen> or nothing quite so fancy and decentralized
557 2010-09-23 16:59:57 <MacRohard> infact, probably the easiest way to get it would be to buy bitcoins using paypal and then sell them for LR ;)
558 2010-09-23 17:00:20 <yebyen> on bitcoinmarket?
559 2010-09-23 17:00:27 <MacRohard> yea
560 2010-09-23 17:01:47 <theymos> Someone should evangelize Bitcoin on the JonDonym forum. (They're like a paid version of Tor.)
561 2010-09-23 17:02:50 <theymos> Maybe someone who can speak German, since their community/admins seems to be mostly German.
562 2010-09-23 17:03:20 <yebyen> i can evangelize bitcoin while trying to convince them that i speak german
563 2010-09-23 17:03:35 <yebyen> but it won't take long before they realize i don't know german
564 2010-09-23 17:16:23 <Dybbuk> MacRohard: Yes, that's true, but then you *lose* money.  :)
565 2010-09-23 18:34:52 <theymos> I updated the wiki with the new transaction fee rates: http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?do=show&id=transaction_fee (Compare revisions to see what the change was.)
566 2010-09-23 21:51:02 <lfm> theymos those new rates only apply to 0.3.13 and later? is 0.3.13 release imminent then?
567 2010-09-23 22:53:09 <LobsterMan> what new rates?
568 2010-09-23 22:56:07 <theymos> lfm: The new rates are in SVN. They'll be in 0.3.13.
569 2010-09-23 22:57:14 <theymos> LobsterMan: The transaction fee rates were changed.
570 2010-09-23 22:57:26 <LobsterMan> significantly?
571 2010-09-23 22:58:17 <theymos> LobsterMan: No. See http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?do=revisions&id=transaction_fee (Compare the latest two revisions.)
572 2010-09-23 23:00:49 <LobsterMan> i still dont really understand it
573 2010-09-23 23:00:59 <LobsterMan> is there a "fee" charged whenver coins are sent?
574 2010-09-23 23:02:14 <theymos> LobsterMan: Not usually, but it can sometimes happen.
575 2010-09-23 23:02:29 <LobsterMan> "For transactions which draw coins from many bitcoin addresses and therefore have a large data size, a small transaction fee is charged. "
576 2010-09-23 23:02:37 <LobsterMan> how would it draw coins from multiple addresses?
577 2010-09-23 23:04:21 <theymos> LobsterMan: When you send bitcoins, they're taken from previous transactions that were sent to you. Usually you have to combine several previous transactions. If you need to bundle hundreds of previous transactions to get the total that you want, a fee will be charged.
578 2010-09-23 23:48:41 <Keefe> ;estimate
579 2010-09-23 23:48:42 <bitbot> Keefe: LastDiff(4d 23:42:54 ago)  ExpBlocks(718)  ActualBlocks(976)  TrgNewDiffDate(2010/10/03 02:04:07 GMT)  EstNewDiffDate(2010/09/29 09:20:55 GMT)  EstNewDiff(1247.63648321)