1 2010-09-27 00:01:41 <grondilu> well maye some are good, but I don't like the one I saw.  I'd like to see a order book.  I haven't seen any of them.
  2 2010-09-27 00:07:18 <grondilu> as I see it, a client would just send a mail to my bot with "BOOK" in the subject, and he will receive my order book (in wich I will be the only one in the buy column).  But I still have to think this through.
  3 2010-09-27 00:16:50 <grondilu> web based exchange plateforms are basicaly escrow services.  Somehow when using them we lose most of the benefit from bitcoin, imo.   I want to buid my own reputation, not relying on someone else's.
  4 2010-09-27 00:19:49 <MacRohard> https://www.bitcoinmarket.com has the order book
  5 2010-09-27 00:20:15 <MacRohard> i don't really like mtgox either, since the coins and money can't really leave the system for a month they could be running a fractional reserve system over there
  6 2010-09-27 00:20:27 <MacRohard> not that i'm suggesting they are - there's just no way to know
  7 2010-09-27 00:21:13 <MacRohard> bitcoinmarket doesn't really do anything - once an order is executed you actually resolve it bilaterally using email with the person on the other side of the deal
  8 2010-09-27 00:21:26 <grondilu> "since the coins and money can't really leave the system for a month"  I didn't know that.
  9 2010-09-27 00:23:49 <MacRohard> it's a rule they have allegedly to prevent fraud due to chargebacks
 10 2010-09-27 00:23:50 <grondilu> that seems to be what I'm looking for.
 11 2010-09-27 00:23:50 <MacRohard> yeah
 12 2010-09-27 00:24:00 <grondilu> no other way of transfer than paypal ?
 13 2010-09-27 00:24:09 <MacRohard> there's also libertyreserve
 14 2010-09-27 00:24:25 <MacRohard> but hardly anyone deals in libertyreserve
 15 2010-09-27 00:25:32 <grondilu> If was asking you to sell me bitcoins, would you accept to give me your bank account infos so that I can transfer some money (euros) to your account ?
 16 2010-09-27 00:25:57 <MacRohard> i dunno.. probably not
 17 2010-09-27 00:26:08 <grondilu> hum
 18 2010-09-27 00:26:17 <MacRohard> the problem with that is the same info you need to deposit can be used to make unauthorized withdrawls
 19 2010-09-27 00:26:39 <mizerydearia> MacRohard, Not necessarily.
 20 2010-09-27 00:26:42 <grondilu> I guess so.  So I'll have to stick with paypal
 21 2010-09-27 00:26:48 <mizerydearia> At my bank only account number is needed to deposit money.
 22 2010-09-27 00:26:58 <MacRohard> usually.. in most cases you could probably even print out a cheque and cash it
 23 2010-09-27 00:27:36 <MacRohard> obviously you wouldn't want to do that on your own account or you'd probably get busted - but there's people out there who have ways around that
 24 2010-09-27 00:27:52 <grondilu> cheques between countries are very expensive, but inside a country it might be a reasonable solution.
 25 2010-09-27 00:28:38 <MacRohard> you could post cash
 26 2010-09-27 00:28:42 <grondilu> ho
 27 2010-09-27 00:29:00 <MacRohard> either way you do it, someone (either the seller or the buyer) has counterparty risk
 28 2010-09-27 00:29:30 <MacRohard> bitcoinmarket does escrow the seller's bitcoins though
 29 2010-09-27 00:29:34 <MacRohard> so i guess that side of things is fairly safe
 30 2010-09-27 00:29:37 <grondilu> posting cash might be a good idea.  Simple and efficace.
 31 2010-09-27 00:30:29 <MacRohard> i guess you still have a problem if the seller claims not to have been paid though
 32 2010-09-27 00:30:41 <grondilu> no
 33 2010-09-27 00:30:42 <MacRohard> somehow you have to convince bitcoinmarket to release the bitcoins
 34 2010-09-27 00:31:31 <grondilu> hum
 35 2010-09-27 00:33:38 <grondilu> maybe we have to wait for Satoshi to have a great idea to solve escrow problems  :)
 36 2010-09-27 00:34:01 <MacRohard> it's not really a problem it's just reality
 37 2010-09-27 00:34:45 <MacRohard> while bitcoin transactions are irrevokable, USD transactions through paypal are not
 38 2010-09-27 00:35:13 <MacRohard> people can steal back money they paid you thorugh paypal, and on the other side they can lie and say they weren't paid when they were and not transfer your coins.
 39 2010-09-27 00:35:28 <grondilu> indeed
 40 2010-09-27 00:36:05 <MacRohard> you can have the exchange escrow both the USD and bitcoin potiton
 41 2010-09-27 00:36:32 <MacRohard> but i think that would make them an easy target for the govt to shuw down
 42 2010-09-27 00:36:42 <MacRohard> or for paypal to shut down if they were using paypal
 43 2010-09-27 00:37:02 <MacRohard> i mean that's basically the mtgox solution
 44 2010-09-27 00:37:23 <MacRohard> they go in the middle of every transaction and make sure things get paid
 45 2010-09-27 00:42:52 <grondilu> in a free market approach, the exchange is based on reputation, right ?   I mean :  let's say Alice buys 50BTC from Bob against 1euro.  They agree that Bob sends the 50BTC first.  Alice then sends a 1euro coin to mailpost.  Three days later, if Bob didn't receive anything, he say to everyone :  "Alice stole me".   And Alice's reputation is diminished.    If he did received the euro but still says "Alice stole me", then Alice says "Bob
 46 2010-09-27 00:43:47 <mizerydearia> s/stole/kidnapped/?
 47 2010-09-27 00:44:14 <grondilu> don't know, maybe my english is not very good.
 48 2010-09-27 00:44:35 <dwdollar> In theory, but no reputation system is perfect.
 49 2010-09-27 00:44:36 <grondilu> "Alice is a thief", if you prefer.
 50 2010-09-27 00:44:54 <mizerydearia> mm, grondilu Where are you from?
 51 2010-09-27 00:45:04 <grondilu> nor is third party usage.
 52 2010-09-27 00:45:10 <grondilu> I guess.
 53 2010-09-27 00:45:19 <dwdollar> People will eventually learn the weakness of the reputation system and exploit it.
 54 2010-09-27 00:45:26 <grondilu> mizerydearia: France
 55 2010-09-27 00:45:31 <mizerydearia> Yes, it is easy to create many identities
 56 2010-09-27 00:45:50 <mizerydearia> Each time reputation is negative create a new identity.
 57 2010-09-27 00:46:13 <grondilu> aa freshly created identity will have zero reputation, so it's quite useless.
 58 2010-09-27 00:46:31 <mizerydearia> Create many identities at same time, when one of the identities is negative, use the others
 59 2010-09-27 00:47:05 <dwdollar> Or create an uber reputation by trading with yourself, then cheat people occasional.
 60 2010-09-27 00:47:09 <grondilu> still, you'll have zero.  And zero will be less than the reputation of honnest people.
 61 2010-09-27 00:47:22 <mizerydearia> You must start from somewhere
 62 2010-09-27 00:47:36 <mizerydearia> Also, yes, trading with yourself is easy also.
 63 2010-09-27 00:47:53 <MacRohard> mizerydearia, just look at ebay :)
 64 2010-09-27 00:48:11 <mizerydearia> mm, I don't want to become blind =/
 65 2010-09-27 00:48:36 <grondilu> in GNUnet they use some economics algorithm with reputation concept.
 66 2010-09-27 00:48:59 <MacRohard> reputation won't work when everyone is pseudo anonymous
 67 2010-09-27 00:49:19 <mizerydearia> Yes,  you would need to "Know Yuor Customer"
 68 2010-09-27 00:49:20 <grondilu> I don't see why.
 69 2010-09-27 00:49:30 <jgarzik> sure it does.  a built reputation has value, even if you don't know who is behind the pseudonym.
 70 2010-09-27 00:49:39 <grondilu> +1
 71 2010-09-27 00:49:41 <MacRohard> because people will post fake reviews saying 'a+++ great honest dealer' and then they rip you off
 72 2010-09-27 00:50:11 <mizerydearia> jgarzik, It has perceived value, yes, but it may not always be reliable or reputable.
 73 2010-09-27 00:50:20 <jgarzik> mizerydearia: just like real life...
 74 2010-09-27 00:50:23 <jgarzik> and real names
 75 2010-09-27 00:50:30 <mizerydearia> Tis true
 76 2010-09-27 00:51:09 <grondilu> maybe we can use proof-of-work cryptographic concept to implement a reputation rating system.
 77 2010-09-27 00:52:13 <grondilu> such as : in order to increase the reputation of someone, you have to use your CPU for some time.
 78 2010-09-27 00:52:30 <grondilu> or something like this.
 79 2010-09-27 00:53:19 <jgarzik> pay BTC for reputation :)
 80 2010-09-27 00:53:45 <MacRohard> yeah
 81 2010-09-27 00:54:05 <grondilu> this would be a waste of BTC.   BTC are meant to be fixed in number.  Not the reputation concept.
 82 2010-09-27 00:54:22 <MacRohard> doesn't matter
 83 2010-09-27 00:54:36 <MacRohard> you can't 'waste' BTC
 84 2010-09-27 00:55:24 <grondilu> hum, maybe.
 85 2010-09-27 00:55:55 <MacRohard> so i guess you could 'buy' identities
 86 2010-09-27 00:56:11 <MacRohard> and at least that would give you some minimal level of confidence they they'll use them more than once
 87 2010-09-27 00:56:44 <grondilu> well this would lead to a situation where reputation is based on your wealth, in other worlds where 'Money goes to money'.  Quite as it is right now.
 88 2010-09-27 01:00:53 <jgarzik> power and money concentrated in the hands of the few:  not likely to change anytime soon :)
 89 2010-09-27 01:01:10 <grondilu> hang on
 90 2010-09-27 01:02:35 <grondilu> maybe reputation can be rewarded with a similar kind of currency.  Only different.  (for instance with leading 111111 instead of 000000).
 91 2010-09-27 01:03:41 <jgarzik> in bitcoin (or similar system), you need >50% of nodes on P2P network to be "honest."  Who participates in distributed reputation system - and what are their motivations?
 92 2010-09-27 01:03:58 <jgarzik> it's a fun topic to think about.  some similar discussions appeared on the forums.
 93 2010-09-27 01:04:40 <grondilu> in the economics section ?  Will I find them if I search "reputation" ?
 94 2010-09-27 01:07:07 <jgarzik> 1. dunno.  2. yes
 95 2010-09-27 01:07:29 <grondilu> ok
 96 2010-09-27 04:07:41 <kermit> T_X: no, you might need to modprobe it: for a in speedstep-centrino cpufreq_ondemand  cpufreq_powersave  cpufreq_stats  cpufreq_userspace  freq_table;do modprobe $a;done   #  it might need a certain CPU though
 97 2010-09-27 05:39:40 <T_X> kermit: thanks. I've also been googling a little, also tried installing powernowd or cpufreqd. but both don't wanna start because of the missing sysfs files
 98 2010-09-27 05:39:58 <T_X> and also tried loading all kinds of cpufreq_* modules already
 99 2010-09-27 05:40:27 <T_X> I have a directory /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpufreq, but that one is empty
100 2010-09-27 05:44:10 <kermit> T_X: did loading those modules work?
101 2010-09-27 05:44:41 <T_X> kermit: hmm, well it did not help
102 2010-09-27 05:44:50 <T_X> and I got: FATAL: Error inserting speedstep_centrino (/lib/modules/2.6.32-5-amd64/kernel/arch/x86/kernel/cpu/cpufreq/speedstep-centrino.ko): No such device
103 2010-09-27 05:44:58 <kermit> T_X: so you arent on intel
104 2010-09-27 05:45:09 <kermit> T_X: i dont know how other brands do it, if at all
105 2010-09-27 05:45:18 <T_X> FATAL: Module cpufreq_ondemand not found.
106 2010-09-27 05:45:25 <kermit> and by intel i do mean intel, not x86
107 2010-09-27 05:45:39 <T_X> hmm, should be intel, it's a core 2 duo
108 2010-09-27 05:45:46 <kermit> hm thats what i have
109 2010-09-27 05:46:09 <kermit> oh hmm i cant load those modules either
110 2010-09-27 05:46:12 <kermit> but its working anyway
111 2010-09-27 05:46:32 <T_X> cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep "model name" -> model name      : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     T7300  @ 2.00GHz
112 2010-09-27 05:46:34 <kermit> T_X: add CPU Frequency Scaling Monitor 2.30.0 to your applet bac
113 2010-09-27 05:46:40 <kermit> bac/bar
114 2010-09-27 05:47:13 <T_X> kermit: where did you get the kernel from? debian unstable too?
115 2010-09-27 05:47:27 <kermit> T_X: i'm in ubuntu
116 2010-09-27 05:47:30 <T_X> maybe a kernel config option is missing (though I checked that with various wikis already)
117 2010-09-27 05:47:52 <kermit> T_X: i control this via that applet
118 2010-09-27 05:47:54 <T_X> kermit: don't have an applet bar available on the system here :)
119 2010-09-27 05:48:29 <kermit> hmm i dont see any module that looks like it
120 2010-09-27 05:48:32 <kermit> in proc/modules
121 2010-09-27 05:48:55 <kermit> well if you arent local on a laptop, who cares
122 2010-09-27 05:49:03 <kermit> i just underclock it so it doesnt get hot in my lap
123 2010-09-27 05:50:31 <T_X> kermit: it's on my local laptop
124 2010-09-27 05:50:44 <T_X> but still I don't have a an applet bar or kde/gnome ;)
125 2010-09-27 05:51:12 <T_X> grep "CPUFREQ" /boot/config-2.6.32-5-amd64; grep "CPU_FREQ" /boot/config-2.6.32-5-amd64 ->
126 2010-09-27 05:51:40 <T_X> CONFIG_CPU_FREQ=y
127 2010-09-27 05:51:43 <T_X> # CONFIG_CPU_FREQ_STAT_DETAILS is not set
128 2010-09-27 05:51:45 <T_X> # CONFIG_CPU_FREQ_DEFAULT_GOV_PERFORMANCE is not set
129 2010-09-27 05:51:47 <T_X> # CONFIG_CPU_FREQ_DEFAULT_GOV_POWERSAVE is not set
130 2010-09-27 05:51:49 <T_X> # CONFIG_CPU_FREQ_DEFAULT_GOV_USERSPACE is not set
131 2010-09-27 05:51:51 <T_X> CONFIG_CPU_FREQ_DEFAULT_GOV_ONDEMAND=y
132 2010-09-27 05:51:53 <kermit> i only have:
133 2010-09-27 05:51:54 <T_X> # CONFIG_CPU_FREQ_DEFAULT_GOV_CONSERVATIVE is not set
134 2010-09-27 05:51:56 <T_X> CONFIG_CPU_FREQ_GOV_PERFORMANCE=y
135 2010-09-27 05:51:58 <T_X> CONFIG_CPU_FREQ_GOV_POWERSAVE=m
136 2010-09-27 05:52:00 <T_X> CONFIG_CPU_FREQ_GOV_USERSPACE=m
137 2010-09-27 05:52:02 <T_X> CONFIG_CPU_FREQ_GOV_ONDEMAND=y
138 2010-09-27 05:52:05 <T_X> CONFIG_CPU_FREQ_GOV_CONSERVATIVE=m
139 2010-09-27 05:52:07 <T_X> CONFIG_X86_ACPI_CPUFREQ=m
140 2010-09-27 05:52:09 <T_X> that's what I get
141 2010-09-27 05:52:11 <kermit> qoh, with underline
142 2010-09-27 05:52:13 <T_X> nothing with CPU_FREQ?
143 2010-09-27 05:52:31 <T_X> yeah, both
144 2010-09-27 05:52:32 <kermit> yes lots with that
145 2010-09-27 05:52:37 <kermit> i wont paste it all though, it looks like you have it on
146 2010-09-27 05:52:54 <kermit> in fact it says its on by default!
147 2010-09-27 05:53:05 <T_X> hmm. yoah. and I guess I don't have a cpufreq_ondemand module as it's already built-in in the kernel here
148 2010-09-27 05:53:31 <kermit> but you dont have /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/ondemand/ignore_nice_load  ?
149 2010-09-27 05:54:24 <T_X> yep,
150 2010-09-27 05:54:44 <kermit> it only shows up if you're in ondemand mode
151 2010-09-27 05:54:51 <kermit> maybe something set it to performance mode
152 2010-09-27 05:55:32 <kermit> er but setting it wouldd be in cpufreq/ under that, which you dont have either
153 2010-09-27 05:55:39 <kermit> OHH its possible you disabled it in your BIOS
154 2010-09-27 05:56:06 <T_X> hmm, okay. though I did not do that on perpous, but I'll have a look at that
155 2010-09-27 05:56:08 <kermit> "SpeedStep"
156 2010-09-27 05:56:25 <T_X> do you have cpufreqd or powernowd installed?
157 2010-09-27 05:56:34 <kermit> no
158 2010-09-27 05:56:51 <T_X> hmm, thought your applet might be using it, hmm
159 2010-09-27 05:57:26 <T_X> hmm, I'll have a short look at my bios options, brb
160 2010-09-27 05:57:30 <T_X> thanks so far
161 2010-09-27 05:57:36 <kermit> well anyway if you get it working, i can barely tell anything is even running
162 2010-09-27 05:57:39 <kermit> its niec and cool
163 2010-09-27 05:58:49 <kermit> or, not sitting at them in their laps
164 2010-09-27 06:10:49 <T_X> :)
165 2010-09-27 06:11:35 <T_X> kermit: but that downscaling is definitely something I want - though not because of the battery life of my laptop, but beceause it gets way too loud for working at that box at the same time, when running bitcoin
166 2010-09-27 06:11:57 <T_X> no succes with the bios, there's no such option
167 2010-09-27 06:12:06 <T_X> it's a very crappy, minimal bios anyway
168 2010-09-27 06:12:19 <T_X> I can configure the boot order, and that's nearly it
169 2010-09-27 06:12:44 <kermit> T_X: loud and heat.. yeah
170 2010-09-27 06:13:10 <kermit> T_X: this is really strange, speedstep is supported, you have in in the kernel, and you have the same cpu i do.
171 2010-09-27 06:14:20 <lfm_> just turn off generating for laptops
172 2010-09-27 06:16:29 <T_X> lfm_: well, would prefer leaving it on. those laptops are not that quick... but the power usage to power cost ratio is still quite ok with the current bitcoin difficulty
173 2010-09-27 06:17:47 <kermit> lfm_: i only have a laptop :P
174 2010-09-27 06:18:00 <kermit> desktops are for desks, desks are for paper, paper is for old people.
175 2010-09-27 06:18:25 <lfm_> prolly cheaper for ya to buy bitcoins
176 2010-09-27 06:18:56 <T_X> lfm_?
177 2010-09-27 06:19:17 <T_X> no, not really
178 2010-09-27 06:19:24 <T_X> well, depends
179 2010-09-27 06:21:15 <kermit> lfm_: hehe, i didnt get that far in the FAQ, how do i do that?
180 2010-09-27 06:21:55 <kermit> i dont see any on ebay
181 2010-09-27 06:22:20 <FreeMoney> mtgox is good, but there is a 30 day wait now for new USD deposits to 'clear'
182 2010-09-27 06:22:36 <FreeMoney> bitcoinmarket.com works too
183 2010-09-27 06:22:56 <FreeMoney> there is a store where you can use a CC directly I believe if you don't use PayPal
184 2010-09-27 06:23:09 <FreeMoney> I can find the address if you want
185 2010-09-27 06:24:13 <kermit> wow this has been running for 12 hours and i have 0 bitcoins
186 2010-09-27 06:24:21 <lfm_> I'll sell you some
187 2010-09-27 06:26:10 <FreeMoney> kermit, what is your khash?
188 2010-09-27 06:26:22 <kermit> FreeMoney: my bitcoin address?
189 2010-09-27 06:26:33 <FreeMoney> no, your hashing speed
190 2010-09-27 06:26:49 <FreeMoney> you want me to ship a few bit cents to see it work?
191 2010-09-27 06:26:53 <doublec> FreeMoney, buybitcoins.com is a site that lets you buy via credit card and get them immediately
192 2010-09-27 06:27:03 <kermit> FreeMoney: 650
193 2010-09-27 06:27:04 <FreeMoney> yep, just found it
194 2010-09-27 06:27:09 <kermit> 650 khash/s
195 2010-09-27 06:27:20 <FreeMoney> oh, it's going to take a few months on average
196 2010-09-27 06:27:26 <kermit> to make one coin?
197 2010-09-27 06:27:39 <FreeMoney> to make one block which will give you 50 coins
198 2010-09-27 06:27:54 <FreeMoney> I thought you had a GPU client or something
199 2010-09-27 06:27:58 <kermit> its a shame i dont still have access to 500 cpus
200 2010-09-27 06:28:05 <FreeMoney> 12 hours is nothing
201 2010-09-27 06:28:32 <FreeMoney> could you really have run on 500 cpus?
202 2010-09-27 06:28:34 <kermit> i may get a job as a sysadmin, then i'll have access to a few hundred CPUs again :)
203 2010-09-27 06:28:42 <kermit> FreeMoney: yse
204 2010-09-27 06:28:44 <FreeMoney> and they wouldn't mind?
205 2010-09-27 06:28:46 <FreeMoney> nice
206 2010-09-27 06:28:49 <kermit> i wouldnt ask first
207 2010-09-27 06:28:53 <kermit> they wouldnt notice
208 2010-09-27 06:28:59 <FreeMoney> ha
209 2010-09-27 06:29:05 <FreeMoney> might notice the power bill though
210 2010-09-27 06:29:08 <kermit> as long as the process is niced, noone would care
211 2010-09-27 06:29:11 <kermit> hmm
212 2010-09-27 06:29:55 <kermit> whats the real difference between idle and loaded on a CPU?
213 2010-09-27 06:29:59 <kermit> in power
214 2010-09-27 06:30:27 <kermit> i imagine the max power rating  would only apply to certain types of calculations that use all the CPU features
215 2010-09-27 06:30:49 <bonsaikitten> kermit: on my notebook I have ~10W idle, ~35W at full load
216 2010-09-27 06:30:57 <FreeMoney> i'm not sure, but it is non-negligable
217 2010-09-27 06:31:10 <FreeMoney> so x500 would probably be noticed
218 2010-09-27 06:31:18 <FreeMoney> you could ramp it up though
219 2010-09-27 06:31:37 <FreeMoney> 50 more machines/month
220 2010-09-27 06:32:08 <bonsaikitten> if the machines aren't running at full load it's a waste anyway ;)
221 2010-09-27 06:32:38 <lfm_> on a server it could easily be 100 watts per box
222 2010-09-27 06:33:13 <Keefe> so it might cost $240/mo more in electricity
223 2010-09-27 06:33:30 <T_X> lfm_: I'm generating with about 1800 khash/s. the power consumes 65W under full cpu stress. power costs 0.19EUR ~ 0.255USD  per kWh. which means:
224 2010-09-27 06:33:57 <T_X> however, if you are running bitcoin while you have your laptop turned on anyway for working etc. you can caculate it that way:
225 2010-09-27 06:34:19 <Keefe> what's the 25.3?
226 2010-09-27 06:34:46 <T_X> idle is 35W, full is 65W, so when running bitcoin while having the laptop turned on anyway, it's:
227 2010-09-27 06:34:57 <T_X> which is below the current 6.X market value
228 2010-09-27 06:35:07 <T_X> it's the days I need according to bitbot
229 2010-09-27 06:35:16 <T_X> ;bph 1800
230 2010-09-27 06:35:18 <bitbot> T_X: ProbabilityPerSecond(0.00000045661476583683170734419000) Chances: Avg(25d 8:20:29) 25%(7d 7:00:32) 50%(17d 13:40:13) 75%(35d 3:20:26) 95%(75d 22:25:43) 99%(116d 17:31:00)
231 2010-09-27 06:35:26 <Keefe> a block is worth about $3.10
232 2010-09-27 06:36:02 <T_X> argh! :D
233 2010-09-27 06:36:15 <T_X> Keefe: yeah, forgot that only 50btc get generated per block, you're right
234 2010-09-27 06:36:45 <doublec> not to mention the difficulty is going to jump up a tad higher soon
235 2010-09-27 06:36:53 <Keefe> ;estimate
236 2010-09-27 06:36:55 <bitbot> Keefe: LastDiff(8d 06:30:38 ago)  ExpBlocks(1191)  ActualBlocks(1684)  TrgNewDiffDate(2010/10/03 02:04:07 GMT)  EstNewDiffDate(2010/09/28 23:42:55 GMT)  EstNewDiff(1297.75591826)
237 2010-09-27 06:37:05 <kermit> full/idle is 20W difference on my laptop
238 2010-09-27 06:37:15 <Keefe> i predicted 1400-1500 diff about a week ago
239 2010-09-27 06:37:28 <T_X> ok, then forget/ignore everything what I've said before, sorry :)
240 2010-09-27 06:37:30 <Keefe> looks like i overestimated
241 2010-09-27 06:37:30 <kermit> how many khashes per block?
242 2010-09-27 06:38:41 <Keefe> about 4 billion khashes per block
243 2010-09-27 06:38:48 <Keefe> at diff=918
244 2010-09-27 06:39:19 <lfm_> difficulty * 2^32
245 2010-09-27 06:41:58 <kermit> so by my math a bitcoin costs me a penny
246 2010-09-27 06:42:02 <kermit> assuming the CPU had no better use
247 2010-09-27 06:42:34 <Keefe> what hash rate kermit?
248 2010-09-27 06:42:42 <doublec> so sometime next week the difficulty will be about 1300?
249 2010-09-27 06:43:02 <kermit> Keefe: 650/s
250 2010-09-27 06:43:11 <kermit> why is it called 'khash'?
251 2010-09-27 06:43:22 <lfm_> kilo hashes
252 2010-09-27 06:43:38 <lfm_> SHA is Secure Hash Algorithm
253 2010-09-27 06:44:22 <kermit> i figured it'd be factoring numbers, how can a hash be reversable for verification?
254 2010-09-27 06:44:26 <lfm_> each "hash" is one run of the SHA256 standard algorithm
255 2010-09-27 06:45:41 <Keefe> kermit, by my math, it costs you 17c per btc if you pay 25c/kwh for elecriticy
256 2010-09-27 06:45:53 <Keefe> at 650 khps and 20W
257 2010-09-27 06:46:02 <kermit> 3.5W
258 2010-09-27 06:46:07 <kermit> 20W was at 2.5GHz
259 2010-09-27 06:46:10 <kermit> i'm running at 800Mhz
260 2010-09-27 06:46:11 <Keefe> oh
261 2010-09-27 06:46:15 <Keefe> nice
262 2010-09-27 06:46:16 <kermit> and i only pay 10c/kwh
263 2010-09-27 06:46:22 <kermit> last i checked my bill anyway
264 2010-09-27 06:46:25 <kermit> which was a long time ago..
265 2010-09-27 06:46:39 <Keefe> yep, 1.2c/btc
266 2010-09-27 06:46:45 <darkski3z> kermit has disconnected * connection reset by power company
267 2010-09-27 06:47:24 <Keefe> in a couple days it will cost you 1.7c/btc
268 2010-09-27 06:47:31 <edcba> but during winter your cpu/gpu can double as heater !
269 2010-09-27 06:48:21 <kermit> Keefe: 11c/kwh... god who pays 25c, that would be rough.
270 2010-09-27 06:48:22 <Netsniper> started in ~2000 with distributed.net
271 2010-09-27 06:48:31 <Keefe> i do
272 2010-09-27 06:48:42 <kermit> Keefe: where?
273 2010-09-27 06:48:44 <Keefe> at this time of year
274 2010-09-27 06:48:54 <Keefe> southern california
275 2010-09-27 06:49:03 <Netsniper> 7.2c here
276 2010-09-27 06:49:19 <Netsniper> from latest bill
277 2010-09-27 06:49:29 <kermit> Keefe: wow, your AC bill must be like $300/mo
278 2010-09-27 06:49:45 <kermit> or $450 even
279 2010-09-27 06:50:04 <Keefe> dunno. i don't pay it myself
280 2010-09-27 06:50:27 <Keefe> not directly at least. so i haven't checked the total bill
281 2010-09-27 06:51:32 <kermit> hmm so it costs 1.2c/btc to make, but they're selling for 6 on bitcoinmarket.com?
282 2010-09-27 06:51:52 <Keefe> and i have 200W of bitcoin computing going on in one room. it's rough when it's 100F outside
283 2010-09-27 06:51:59 <kermit> the FAQ still says: At the moment, though, you can generate new coins quite profitably
284 2010-09-27 06:52:06 <kermit> er wait, that would be profit, nevermind
285 2010-09-27 06:52:12 <Netsniper> ha
286 2010-09-27 06:53:10 <lfm_> that faq was written when difficulty was 45
287 2010-09-27 06:53:16 <Netsniper> my amd 2000+ isnt market competitive
288 2010-09-27 06:53:26 <Netsniper> at this juncture
289 2010-09-27 06:55:24 <Netsniper> hash/watt ratio not quite there
290 2010-09-27 06:56:04 <Keefe> looking at the total? or the additional watts to hash when the computer's already on?
291 2010-09-27 06:56:31 <Keefe> especially if you can utilize something like speedstep and not let bitcoin increase the clock
292 2010-09-27 06:56:49 <Keefe> that's how kermit is getting 650khps for 3.5W, right?
293 2010-09-27 06:57:07 <Netsniper> i used the thermal specs from amd's site - the total
294 2010-09-27 06:57:21 <kermit> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=more_faqs says bitcoin runs at low priority.. in linux it runs at normal priority
295 2010-09-27 06:57:21 <Netsniper> -thermal
296 2010-09-27 06:57:49 <kermit> i used powertop to measure
297 2010-09-27 06:57:58 <kermit> let me try some medium speeds and see their efficiency
298 2010-09-27 06:58:16 <Netsniper> yeah, make a khash/watt graph
299 2010-09-27 06:58:18 <Netsniper> brilliant
300 2010-09-27 06:59:42 <Netsniper> anyhoo, my betime
301 2010-09-27 06:59:46 <kermit> hmm no 800MHz is most power efficient
302 2010-09-27 07:02:28 <Keefe> what's the next level?
303 2010-09-27 07:02:43 <kermit> bitcoin.org isnt responding
304 2010-09-27 07:02:56 <kermit> i connect to http, but there is no reply
305 2010-09-27 07:03:32 <kermit> Keefe: of my cpu speed? 1.6MHz, it seems to use 10W for that, slight less efficient
306 2010-09-27 07:03:43 <kermit> er GHz
307 2010-09-27 07:04:01 <Keefe> 10W more than idle or more than 800mhz with bitcoin?
308 2010-09-27 07:04:20 <Keefe> bitcoin.org loads for me
309 2010-09-27 07:04:47 <kermit> more than idle
310 2010-09-27 07:04:59 <Keefe> and what hash rate at 1.6?
311 2010-09-27 07:05:10 <kermit> Keefe: twice 800MHz
312 2010-09-27 07:05:19 <kermit> Keefe: are you sure bitcoin.org isnt cached? hit reload
313 2010-09-27 07:05:28 <Keefe> i think you're right
314 2010-09-27 07:05:35 <Keefe> i can't get to other pages
315 2010-09-27 07:06:18 <Keefe> so 650khps costs 3.5W, 650khps more costs 6.5W more
316 2010-09-27 07:06:39 <kermit> yeah
317 2010-09-27 07:06:40 <Keefe> still worth it
318 2010-09-27 07:06:51 <kermit> not counting the cost of a hot laptop in my lap, yeah
319 2010-09-27 07:06:56 <Keefe> true
320 2010-09-27 07:07:54 <Keefe> other pages are loading but very slow
321 2010-09-27 07:11:22 <Keefe> extremely slow
322 2010-09-27 07:11:24 <kermit> maybe its 'slashdotted' again
323 2010-09-27 07:15:57 <kermit> so if it takes 3 months to maek 1 bitcoin, bitcoin needs instructions as to how to make it run at boot.. i know how, but not everyone does
324 2010-09-27 07:16:09 <kermit> it also needs to nice itself and mention the ondemand/ignore nice thing
325 2010-09-27 07:39:13 <FreeMoney> http://95.211.13.33:10619/
326 2010-09-27 07:39:22 <FreeMoney> is not getting me the roulette site anymore
327 2010-09-27 07:41:34 <joe_1> its at cashcow.no-ip.org now
328 2010-09-27 07:44:08 <kermit> so each khash takes the same block of data but with a different random number?  how big is the random number?
329 2010-09-27 07:50:17 <joe_1> freemoney is that url working for you
330 2010-09-27 07:56:44 <kermit> hrm how do i build this
331 2010-09-27 07:57:13 <kermit> make gives me 1000 erros, but the first one is headers.h:30:19: error: wx/wx.h: No such file or directory
332 2010-09-27 07:58:04 <Diablo-D3> step one: install wx 2.9
333 2010-09-27 07:58:12 <Diablo-D3> step two: realize the makefile is an utter pile of shit
334 2010-09-27 07:58:25 <Diablo-D3> step three: realize wx is an utter pile of shit
335 2010-09-27 07:58:30 <Diablo-D3> step four: download the binary.
336 2010-09-27 08:02:56 <kermit> wx is crap too, wx/platform.h tries to include wx/setup.h  which doesnt exist
337 2010-09-27 08:03:10 <Diablo-D3> it does, but its somewhere else I bet
338 2010-09-27 08:03:20 <Diablo-D3> also, see the makefile
339 2010-09-27 08:04:00 <Diablo-D3> you have really dumb fuck shit like /usr/lib/include/something
340 2010-09-27 08:04:04 <Diablo-D3> where that something isnt consistent
341 2010-09-27 08:04:17 <Diablo-D3> it could be gtk2, it could be something else, it could be release, it could be something else
342 2010-09-27 08:04:33 <Diablo-D3> all sorts of dumb shit
343 2010-09-27 08:04:57 <Diablo-D3> now, the makefile should be using wx-config to get those lines
344 2010-09-27 08:05:01 <Diablo-D3> but it doesnt
345 2010-09-27 08:05:09 <bonsaikitten> people that voluntarily use wx should be carefully pruned from society ;)
346 2010-09-27 08:05:26 <Diablo-D3> bonsaikitten: I agree
347 2010-09-27 08:09:11 <FreeMoney> joe_1: yes it works thanks
348 2010-09-27 08:11:32 <joe_1> np
349 2010-09-27 08:14:08 <kermit> its a good thing i once ran slackware or i'd have no idea how to get this built
350 2010-09-27 08:15:28 <kermit> for something thats little more than an accounting program, this sure uses a lot of weird libraries
351 2010-09-27 08:16:38 <Keefe> kermit: the data being hashed includes a timestamp in seconds, and a nonce that's incremented each time it hashes
352 2010-09-27 08:17:21 <Keefe> and the data also includes stuff that's unique to you
353 2010-09-27 08:17:48 <Keefe> so the combination of those factors ensures nobody is checking the same data more than once
354 2010-09-27 08:18:35 <bertodsera> ok for the bot
355 2010-09-27 08:18:55 <Keefe> if you were hashing faster than 4295000 khps, the 32-bit nonce would wrap back to 0
356 2010-09-27 08:19:11 <Keefe> with the same timestamp
357 2010-09-27 08:19:29 <Keefe> i forget whether there's code to deal with that possibility
358 2010-09-27 08:20:01 <Keefe> but who has a processor that fast, lol
359 2010-09-27 08:26:44 <kermit> its only a second not microsecond timestamp?
360 2010-09-27 08:27:19 <kermit> cpus will be that fast within 20 years
361 2010-09-27 08:34:35 <kermit> wow it takes over a GB of free space to build wxwidgets 2.9
362 2010-09-27 08:49:15 <UukGoblin> Keefe, ArtForz does ;-) nearly
363 2010-09-27 08:49:55 <UukGoblin> he's doing ~650000 khps with his gfx card IIRC
364 2010-09-27 08:55:14 <kermit> you've gotta be kidding
365 2010-09-27 08:56:24 <kermit> anyone know how to build this?  i'm up to /usr/local/include/wx-2.9/wx/chkconf.h:94:9: error: #error "wxUSE_ANY must be defined, please read comment near the top of this file."
366 2010-09-27 08:56:58 <bonsaikitten> so read that ;)
367 2010-09-27 08:57:07 <kermit> i read it, i still get the error :P
368 2010-09-27 08:57:26 <bonsaikitten> ok, let me rephrase
369 2010-09-27 08:57:33 <bonsaikitten> read, understand and act on it
370 2010-09-27 08:57:42 <kermit> i'm failing on the second part there
371 2010-09-27 08:57:46 <kermit> here's said file https://svn.lcube.de/dev123/projects/vendor/wxWidgets/include/wx/chkconf.h
372 2010-09-27 08:59:07 <kermit> A) this isnt a daily snapshot, so there are no instructions for that case, B) even if it was, i wouldnt understand those instructions
373 2010-09-27 08:59:31 <kermit> i just took the tarball, did configure, make, make install
374 2010-09-27 08:59:51 <kermit> but when i compile against it, i get the error
375 2010-09-27 09:03:55 <doublec> i ended up just building the cli version
376 2010-09-27 09:04:04 <doublec> I gave up trying to get the right wx libraries, etc
377 2010-09-27 09:04:52 <kermit> doublec: oh fuck thats a really good idea, thanks.
378 2010-09-27 09:05:13 <kermit> doublec: how do i do that?
379 2010-09-27 09:05:29 <doublec> kermit, let me check what I changed in the makefile
380 2010-09-27 09:05:37 <kermit> oh make bitcoind
381 2010-09-27 09:05:43 <kermit> it doestn seem to be built by default even
382 2010-09-27 09:07:14 <doublec> yeah
383 2010-09-27 09:07:25 <doublec> just make bitcointd - I had to tweak the boost libraries though
384 2010-09-27 09:09:31 <kermit> yeah that complied, thanks!!
385 2010-09-27 09:11:03 <doublec> no worries
386 2010-09-27 09:11:08 <doublec> you don't miss much with the gui anyway
387 2010-09-27 09:11:22 <kermit> how do i see how fast its going without the GUI?
388 2010-09-27 09:12:20 <doublec> bitcoind getinfo
389 2010-09-27 09:12:37 <doublec> that'll show you you balance, khash/s and other stuff
390 2010-09-27 09:12:58 <doublec> bitcoind setgenerate true x
391 2010-09-27 09:13:05 <doublec> where x = number of cpus to generate coins
392 2010-09-27 09:13:16 <doublec> I think leaving x off uses all cpus
393 2010-09-27 09:13:57 <doublec> "bitcoind help" for other commands
394 2010-09-27 09:14:24 <kermit> thanks
395 2010-09-27 09:16:44 <doublec> to send money: bitcoind sendtoaddress 1AATGuNgN3ZGjxr7PKTvWJBab8mTDqikXV a_very_large_number
396 2010-09-27 09:16:46 <doublec> ;)
397 2010-09-27 09:18:08 <doublec> I like how simple the bitcoind interface is to integrate into websites and other payment processing programs
398 2010-09-27 09:18:54 <kermit> oh hah i just happened to notice why bitcoin didnt compile.. i was still telling it to use the 2.8 include paths, and my shell had wx-config hashed to call the 2.8 one
399 2010-09-27 09:19:01 <bonsaikitten> it's badly named, one should not use the daemon to run default commands
400 2010-09-27 09:19:37 <doublec> true
401 2010-09-27 09:20:26 <doublec> if you run it with -server you also want to be careful that you don't run third party programs that look for that and send your balance somewhere
402 2010-09-27 09:20:35 <bonsaikitten> lol
403 2010-09-27 09:20:40 <doublec> bitcoin probably hasn't got the traction for people to try that yet though
404 2010-09-27 09:22:21 <kermit> bitcoin is almost fully distrubited, but there needs to be an interface right in the GUI to enter an IRC server so the single point of failure, irc.lfnet.org, wont cause as much of a problem.
405 2010-09-27 09:24:56 <kermit> especially considering there's a bill in congress right now to give the authority to block domain names without due process
406 2010-09-27 09:26:17 <bonsaikitten> yeah, that'll scare .tk domains away ;)
407 2010-09-27 09:26:27 <bonsaikitten> the amount of stupid you find in politics is impressive
408 2010-09-27 09:36:08 <lfm_> kermit: you can bypass ALL the irc servers and give it node addresses directly
409 2010-09-27 09:37:36 <doublec> a swoopo/grab-a-bid clone using bitcoins might be fun
410 2010-09-27 09:38:32 <kermit> lfm_: is there a place to put that in the GUI?
411 2010-09-27 09:39:00 <lfm_> kermit: the gui is for wimps. its in the command line
412 2010-09-27 09:40:39 <kermit> oh, i thought this was for the masses
413 2010-09-27 09:40:58 <lfm_> if you're serious you use the command line, if your not serious you dont need to bypass the irc
414 2010-09-27 09:41:14 <doublec> heh, on bidding pond. Shipping Conditions: will not ship internationally. Shipping cost: 10btc worldwide
415 2010-09-27 09:41:22 <doublec> that's obviously some other worldwide that isn't international
416 2010-09-27 09:41:36 <lfm_> hehe
417 2010-09-27 09:43:05 <lfm_> they probably think "worldwide" means alaska and Hawaii
418 2010-09-27 09:44:42 <kermit> maybe that level of robustness will be added later down the line then
419 2010-09-27 09:44:51 <kermit> the robustness is a big draw to a lot of people
420 2010-09-27 09:45:54 <lfm_> kermit if the irc ever starts failing in any way, there is already a built in fallback to a fixed list of nodes. if that fails, you may need to download a new version
421 2010-09-27 09:46:17 <kermit> does it share node lists?
422 2010-09-27 09:46:44 <lfm_> yes as soon as you have any connections, the nodes start shareing more connections
423 2010-09-27 09:47:19 <kermit> ohh ok, mine seemed to struggle without the irc server, but maybe i didnt let it run long enough
424 2010-09-27 09:48:17 <lfm_> is your incomming port open?
425 2010-09-27 09:48:22 <kermit> yes
426 2010-09-27 09:48:52 <ArtForz> if you run -noirc use -addnode to manually add a few good seed nodes, otherwise it waits for over a minute before falling back to the hardcoded list of seednodes
427 2010-09-27 09:49:28 <lfm_> he sez the command line is too hard
428 2010-09-27 09:49:46 <ArtForz> *shrug* tough luck then
429 2010-09-27 09:49:50 <kermit> ArtForz: hardcoded or the list its learned from previous runs?
430 2010-09-27 09:50:07 <ArtForz> for first run hardcoded
431 2010-09-27 09:50:28 <ArtForz> once it got peer addrs it uses those
432 2010-09-27 09:50:35 <kermit> cool
433 2010-09-27 09:51:07 <ArtForz> but it goes through the list quite slowly.
434 2010-09-27 09:51:32 <ArtForz> I think it only tries one node every 10 sec or so
435 2010-09-27 09:52:20 <ArtForz> so it can take a bit to connect even if the client already has a list of peer addrs
436 2010-09-27 09:54:29 <kermit> ArtForz: ahh, thats what misled me, thanks
437 2010-09-27 09:54:47 <ArtForz> imo a place where the client could use some improvement, something like keeping a list of nodes it had outgoing connections to on last shutdown and immediately trying those on startup
438 2010-09-27 09:55:32 <lfm_> so if you forced to use only the gui you're stuck without those controls. Like he sez, too bad.
439 2010-09-27 09:57:29 <ArtForz> yep
440 2010-09-27 09:57:36 <lfm_> it records the last time it connected to a node but Im not clear when or if it uses that info
441 2010-09-27 09:58:15 <ArtForz> I think it uses that to prioritise nodes for connect attempts, but it looks like that logic doesn't wortk too well for some reason
442 2010-09-27 10:00:02 <lfm_> i expect there is still a lot of people that don't run 24/7
443 2010-09-27 10:06:05 <lfm> ;nr
444 2010-09-27 10:06:06 <bitbot> lfm: CurrentBlockCount( 82,360 blocks ) CurrentDifficulty( 917.8309374400 ) NextDifficultyAt( 82,656 blocks ) NextDifficultyIn( 296 blocks )
445 2010-09-27 10:10:36 <doublec> is the client stay joined to the irc channel? So the number of users in the channel are the number of connected clients?
446 2010-09-27 10:11:10 <ArtForz> I think so
447 2010-09-27 10:11:41 <lfm> mostly, only a few would use -noirc or have irc blocked
448 2010-09-27 10:39:44 <kermit> if i'm understanding this right, any receipient has to calculate the same chain to verify its authenticity?
449 2010-09-27 10:40:09 <kermit> oh but knowing the nonce, only that 1 nonce, i see
450 2010-09-27 10:45:48 <edcba> indeed verifying is a lot faster than generating
451 2010-09-27 14:03:35 <UukGoblin> mizerydearia, oh, what a nice number of bitcoins you've received in donations ;-]
452 2010-09-27 14:05:32 <UukGoblin> where's that famous gpu miner by puddinpop?
453 2010-09-27 14:29:23 <kermit> are ppl really getting 30Mhash/s with a GPU?
454 2010-09-27 14:34:23 <kermit> does anyone have a staticly linked bsd binary?
455 2010-09-27 14:35:32 <MacRohard> do you want one that randomly steals your coins or not?
456 2010-09-27 14:35:51 <kermit> as long as it doesnt steal more than half of them
457 2010-09-27 14:40:54 <niekie> nathan7: your bitcoin payment has been received. Here's the op:
458 2010-09-27 14:41:32 <niekie> (just kidding, I don't really sell ops for Bitcoins... or do I? ;))
459 2010-09-27 14:46:31 <nathan7> niekie: lol
460 2010-09-27 14:51:13 <kermit> oh even a staticly linked linux binary will work on bsd.. but i cant seem to make that
461 2010-09-27 15:00:49 <nathan7> hmm
462 2010-09-27 15:02:06 <MacRohard> i'm thinking it would be enormous
463 2010-09-27 15:07:48 <kermit> this channel should be +g
464 2010-09-27 15:09:47 <MacRohard> what does that do?
465 2010-09-27 15:09:52 <kermit> it lets anyone /invite
466 2010-09-27 16:02:24 <kermit> so i spent several hours looking for weaknesses in what you guys are doing and i couldnt find any, i'm really excited.   "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" -- Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild
467 2010-09-27 16:03:57 <Tritonio> weaknesses in bitcoin?
468 2010-09-27 16:05:33 <gavinandresen> kermit: were you looking at the fundamental idea, the code, the protocol ... ?
469 2010-09-27 16:06:25 <kermit> gavinandresen: all of that.. i put about 10 hours into it
470 2010-09-27 16:06:38 <kermit> gavinandresen: i've wanted something like htis for a really really long time, i wasnt sure if it was possible
471 2010-09-27 16:06:50 <gavinandresen> kermit: awesome.  I did the same thing when I first heard about bitcoin
472 2010-09-27 16:07:42 <gavinandresen> kermit: I'm still a little worried that a professional cryptographer might find some fundamental flaw, but only a little...
473 2010-09-27 16:13:15 <Tritonio> is there any way to pretect the network form spam? I mean what if I transfer some coins from one account to another hundred of times per hour so that I fill the blocks with trash.
474 2010-09-27 16:13:49 <gavinandresen> Tritonio: mandatory transaction fees seem to be the leading idea at the moment.
475 2010-09-27 16:17:58 <gavinandresen> Tritonio: besides being a jerk, there's no incentive to generate lots of transactions.  And if you want to be a jerk, there are probably easier ways of disrupting the network.
476 2010-09-27 16:24:41 <lfm> gavinandresen, I'd be more worried that an amateur cryptographer find a flaw than a pro. the pro would probably just explain it to us.
477 2010-09-27 16:25:25 <gavinandresen> lfm: you're thinking an amateur would take advantage of it and we wouldn't notice?
478 2010-09-27 16:25:38 <lfm> they might try
479 2010-09-27 16:26:22 <gavinandresen> They might, but I think it'd be noticed very quickly.  I've been impressed with how quickly bug exploits have been discovered and fixed.
480 2010-09-27 16:27:03 <gavinandresen> Unless it was something really subtle, like a method that allows them to generate more than their "fair share" of blocks.
481 2010-09-27 16:27:03 <lfm> well ya that overflow bug was noticed right away.
482 2010-09-27 16:27:42 <jgarzik> thanks to the overflow being obvious on http://www.bitcoinwatch.com/
483 2010-09-27 16:27:45 <jgarzik> </plug>
484 2010-09-27 16:28:55 <lfm> the GPU generators could almost be considered such! grin
485 2010-09-27 16:30:11 <jgarzik> we've had occasions where a single entity had >50% of the CPU power, right?
486 2010-09-27 16:30:32 <jgarzik> nenolod and/or ArtForz?
487 2010-09-27 16:30:41 <Tritonio> gavinandresen: so the netowrk is not jerk-proof? damn we need those custom fees now...
488 2010-09-27 16:30:46 <gavinandresen> Have we?  I think the most ArtForz ever claimed was 40%
489 2010-09-27 16:31:01 <gavinandresen> ... and I'm not sure nenolod got above 50%
490 2010-09-27 16:31:25 <lfm> maybe very early during the first year when difficulty was still 1.00
491 2010-09-27 16:31:26 <gavinandresen> Tritonio: making any p2p system jerk-proof is really hard, and an area of active research.
492 2010-09-27 16:31:43 <Tritonio> gavinandresen: you just have to put a transaction fee in our case....
493 2010-09-27 16:31:45 <Diablo-D3> nenolod could have had over 50%
494 2010-09-27 16:32:17 <lfm> and arguably for the first block, Satoshi was 100%
495 2010-09-27 16:32:25 <gavinandresen> Tritonio:  that'll solve the generate-lots-of-little-transactions problem, but doesn't solve the other (probably) 999 ways of messing with the network...
496 2010-09-27 16:32:36 <jgarzik> luckily most people with massive CPU power have a built-in incentive not to screw the system.  Messing up bitcoin requires CPU power _and_ the will to throw away money...
497 2010-09-27 16:33:09 <Tritonio> gavinandresen: like what?
498 2010-09-27 16:33:18 <lfm> jgarzik, so we just need to worry about governments Id think
499 2010-09-27 16:34:33 <jgarzik> even criminals who'd want to double-spend, and may have the botnet power to gain >50% of the network, have incentives to keep the overall network working.  A double-spend is worthless, if bitcoins are worthless.
500 2010-09-27 16:35:22 <jgarzik> thus, I predict bitcoin will continue to be healthy until a massive, immediate collapse, precipitated by a government or griefer attack.
501 2010-09-27 16:36:55 <gavinandresen> Tritonio:  I haven't spared any brain cycles trying to figure out ways of messing up the network, but I'm sure there are lots of ways to cause trouble.  Maybe send lots and lots of bogus "addr" commands, making other machines try to connect to non-existent bitcoin nodes...
502 2010-09-27 16:38:01 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: 'addr' attack is definitely valid
503 2010-09-27 16:38:09 <gavinandresen> Tritonio: or send bogus blocks in response to "get block inventory" commands.  Or claim to have a 1-million-long block chain, and then send out the block inventory starting with the millionth bogus block, but send it out really s...l...o...w...l...y ....
504 2010-09-27 16:38:31 <jgarzik> and think about the 'amplification' class of bugs
505 2010-09-27 16:40:01 <gavinandresen> We need some professional cryptographers to look at the basic crypto ideas.  And some people experienced with network protocol design to tell us all the interesting ways the network protocol could fail...  (I'm not either)
506 2010-09-27 16:40:02 <kermit> who's Mathias?   i want my bitcoin i just bought ;)
507 2010-09-27 16:44:25 <Tritonio> gavinandresen: what if you claim you have a looong chain... others won't believe you until they see all of it I suppose... right? And what are bogus blocks? Anything bogus can be detected I suppose and whoever sent that to you can be banned by your client.
508 2010-09-27 16:45:52 <gavinandresen> "whoever sent that to you can be banned" is hard; you could try to ban by IP, but bad guys may have thousands of IPs available (think botnet).  And good guys may be sharing IPs (think TOR)
509 2010-09-27 16:46:28 <Tritonio> gavinandresen: still that's the way all P2P netoworks protect themselves... torrent etc...
510 2010-09-27 16:47:23 <lfm> an example of one isn't quite "all"
511 2010-09-27 16:47:40 <Tritonio> it better you have a smaller network than no netowork at all...
512 2010-09-27 16:47:58 <Tritonio> lfm i think emule also had the same kind of bans... not really sure though.
513 2010-09-27 16:48:02 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: the network protocol is bloody awful :(
514 2010-09-27 16:48:19 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: unfortunately interoperability was not a priority for satoshi
515 2010-09-27 16:48:27 <Tritonio> it is. from what I can understand I can mess the network up right now...
516 2010-09-27 16:48:31 <jgarzik> plenty of "my client is the only client" assumptions built into the network itself.
517 2010-09-27 16:48:59 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: "awful but works" is better than "perfect on paper" ....
518 2010-09-27 16:49:05 <jgarzik> true :)
519 2010-09-27 16:49:44 <gavinandresen> I actually think Satoshi did the right thing by doing the best he could as quickly as he could...
520 2010-09-27 16:50:04 <gavinandresen> The only way to figure out if Bitcoin will work in practice is to get it out there and get people trying to break it.
521 2010-09-27 16:50:14 <jgarzik> the linkage between C++ data types seen by compiler, and network protocol, is much too tight IMO
522 2010-09-27 16:50:25 <gavinandresen> I just wish I could convince him to switch to a more collaborative development model.
523 2010-09-27 16:50:42 <jgarzik> network protocol is basically serialized C++, which is unfriendly, long term, to any competing implementation
524 2010-09-27 16:50:44 <Tritonio> gavinandresen: what do you mean? what is the current development model?
525 2010-09-27 16:50:59 <jgarzik> Tritonio: mostly-closed
526 2010-09-27 16:51:06 <jgarzik> open source, closed development
527 2010-09-27 16:51:07 <lfm> his variable length fields could have been a bit nicer I think but they could have been a lot worse too
528 2010-09-27 16:51:17 <gavinandresen> Tritonio: Satoshi is the gatekeeper right now, all code flows through him
529 2010-09-27 16:51:30 <Tritonio> well forks are always possible...
530 2010-09-27 16:51:45 <gavinandresen> But forks this early are painful (I know, I've got several!)
531 2010-09-27 16:51:55 <Tritonio> painful to who?
532 2010-09-27 16:52:22 <gavinandresen> Painful to those of us who implement a feature and then have to re-integrate if the feature makes it into the main codebase
533 2010-09-27 16:52:27 <lfm> mostly painfull to the fork developer (ie the test net)
534 2010-09-27 16:52:51 <gavinandresen> And painful to keep track of dependencies between/among forks
535 2010-09-27 16:54:23 <gavinandresen> Speaking of which: jgarzik, have you done any work on a -testnetwork switch?
536 2010-09-27 16:55:58 <Tritonio> gavinandresen: just an idea. what about a plugin interface? perhaps a way to write lua plugins that control many aspects, both in the protocol and in the UI.
537 2010-09-27 16:57:24 <lfm> Tritonio, yes, several of us would like to see a nice plug-in interface for the mining-generating stuff but imo its just getting worse instead of better
538 2010-09-27 16:57:38 <Tritonio> what is getting worse?
539 2010-09-27 16:57:44 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: yes.  did the non-gui portions, but still unsure about the GUI areas.
540 2010-09-27 16:57:46 <gavinandresen> Tritonio: I'd rather have a "libbitcoin" interface, with core functionality exposed via clean C++ api
541 2010-09-27 16:57:52 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I need to find a non-github git host...
542 2010-09-27 16:57:59 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: agreed (re libbitcoin)
543 2010-09-27 16:58:14 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: what's wrong with github?  (and I think SourceForge does git these days)
544 2010-09-27 16:58:21 <lfm> the mining-generating code. I have been trying to maintain some code for the VIA-C7 for mining and its kinda nasty
545 2010-09-27 16:58:34 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: it doesn't support various minor details I'm used to having, with *.kernel.org
546 2010-09-27 16:59:02 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: being on the git host where the original git author hosts his stuff has its advantages :)
547 2010-09-27 17:00:13 <gavinandresen> gotta run out and fetch kids, back in a while...
548 2010-09-27 17:00:18 <lfm> bye
549 2010-09-27 17:01:05 <Tritonio> bb
550 2010-09-27 17:56:03 <LobsterMan> so assuming i'm using mingw on windows, once i've built wxwidgets/db/openssl/boost, where do i stick all those new libraries and stuff with respect to the bitcoin source so that I can use the mingw makefile?
551 2010-09-27 21:20:39 <briareus> ah, I didn't realize there was a -dev
552 2010-09-27 21:20:49 <briareus> I was asking in #bitcoin
553 2010-09-27 21:21:06 <briareus> I'm having problems with the bitcoin 32b linux app
554 2010-09-27 21:21:10 <briareus> it's complaining that libpng12.so.0 isn't in /usr/lib/ but I am looking at /usr/lib/libpng12.so.0
555 2010-09-27 21:21:47 <briareus> ./bitcoin: /usr/lib/libpng12.so.0: no version information available (required by ./bitcoin)
556 2010-09-27 21:22:17 <briareus> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2010-07-22 00:37 libpng12.so.0 -> libpng12.so.0.1.2.44
557 2010-09-27 21:26:11 <kermit> does the difficulty change in fixed incriments?  the blocks goes up, but difficulty doesnt seem to move.
558 2010-09-27 21:26:11 <Zarutian> kermit: the difficulty is recalculated every 120 blocks or about weekly from how fast block generation was that week. If faster than target then the difficulty increases. If slower than target then the difficulty lessens.
559 2010-09-27 21:26:30 <blablaa> "Bitcoin has value because it is accepted as payment by many. The initial market value was achieved when people speculated, that because of its properties, the currency would be accepted by others later on." <- are we sure these guys have speculated well?
560 2010-09-27 21:26:59 <Diablo-D3> theres a shitload of speculation going on
561 2010-09-27 21:27:03 <fedorared> Well meaning what, profit?
562 2010-09-27 21:27:14 <Diablo-D3> I think most of the existing btc is held by speculators
563 2010-09-27 21:28:59 <dwdollar> I'd trust the average Bitcoin speculator more than the average stock market speculator.
564 2010-09-27 21:30:43 <briareus> so, does anyone have an idea of what I posted above? I'll provide any other info required.
565 2010-09-27 21:31:35 <briareus> sorry, I'll just wait for a reply. (I'm excited, hehe)
566 2010-09-27 21:32:09 <blablaa> dwdollar, obviously, because u're bitcoin speculator! :D
567 2010-09-27 21:32:21 <dwdollar> Yeah.:)
568 2010-09-27 21:33:05 <blablaa> dwdollar, what is the history of the bitcoin-dollar exchange rate?
569 2010-09-27 21:33:18 <dwdollar> But the average stock market speculator lets someone else manage his/her money.
570 2010-09-27 21:34:55 <dwdollar> Well, if I might do some shameless self-promotion, you can check out https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/
571 2010-09-27 21:35:07 <doublec> briareus, you need to either rebuild libpng yourself, or rebuild the bitcoin program
572 2010-09-27 21:35:20 <doublec> I'd opt for the latter since the former might have other issues with your system
573 2010-09-27 21:35:31 <doublec> briareus, what distro is it?
574 2010-09-27 21:35:58 <briareus> slackware 13.0.0.0.0
575 2010-09-27 21:36:15 <briareus> Linux 2.6.35.6 i686 GNU/Linux
576 2010-09-27 21:36:28 <briareus> http://pastebin.com/Ghyzmw6p  <-- ldd bitcoin
577 2010-09-27 21:38:00 <blablaa> dwdollar, thx, exactly what i was looking for
578 2010-09-27 21:38:06 <blablaa> dwdollar, so it seems stable at 0.06..
579 2010-09-27 21:38:28 <dwdollar> Yeah, ever since the slashdot influx.
580 2010-09-27 21:38:34 <doublec> briareus, I don't think slackware links with versioned symbols whereas distro's like ubuntu do
581 2010-09-27 21:38:47 <blablaa> dwdollar, 2010-07 has been caused by slashdot?
582 2010-09-27 21:38:50 <blablaa> dwdollar, :
583 2010-09-27 21:38:52 <blablaa> dwdollar, funny
584 2010-09-27 21:38:56 <briareus> doublec: I don't even know what that means.
585 2010-09-27 21:38:56 <doublec> briareus, so you have problems with binaries from the other distros
586 2010-09-27 21:39:05 <doublec> briareus, it means you need to rebuild bitcoin from source
587 2010-09-27 21:39:19 <dwdollar> blablaa: Yep. :)
588 2010-09-27 21:39:22 <briareus> I would have preferred building it from source, I only saw the bin download
589 2010-09-27 21:41:13 <blablaa> dwdollar, last question.. how much time it takes to generate one bitcoin, on average?
590 2010-09-27 21:42:25 <dwdollar> blablaa:  I'm not sure.  I haven't tried generating in a long time.  You have to have some serious hardware to generate much anymore.
591 2010-09-27 21:43:08 <kermit> heh it looks like ##economics in here
592 2010-09-27 21:43:29 <doublec> about 1 coin every 12 hours I think
593 2010-09-27 21:43:31 <doublec> depending on hash rate
594 2010-09-27 21:43:55 <doublec> ;bph 1800
595 2010-09-27 21:43:57 <bitbot> doublec: ProbabilityPerSecond(0.00000045661476583683170734419000) Chances: Avg(25d 8:20:29) 25%(7d 7:00:32) 50%(17d 13:40:13) 75%(35d 3:20:26) 95%(75d 22:25:43) 99%(116d 17:31:00)
596 2010-09-27 21:44:07 <doublec> so 25 days on average to get 50 coins
597 2010-09-27 21:44:11 <FreeMoney> I generated one today, first one of the month, running 1 laptop about 12 hours/day on average
598 2010-09-27 21:44:40 <blablaa> doublec, thx
599 2010-09-27 21:45:00 <briareus> doublec: is there any docs on how to make it from source? I'm in the /src dir, but my usual method is to configure, make, make install, etc
600 2010-09-27 21:45:04 <briareus> that's not working here
601 2010-09-27 21:45:11 <doublec> briareus, make -f makefile.unix
602 2010-09-27 21:45:13 <kermit> briareus: i've done it
603 2010-09-27 21:45:18 <doublec> briareus, but you'll need some dependancies
604 2010-09-27 21:45:21 <blablaa> FreeMoney, so 1 month to generate one coin?
605 2010-09-27 21:45:23 <kermit> briareus: mv makefile.unix Makefile;make
606 2010-09-27 21:45:31 <blablaa> FreeMoney, maybe u've below average hardware?
607 2010-09-27 21:45:38 <doublec> blablaa, 50 coins I suspect
608 2010-09-27 21:45:39 <kermit> briareus: then spend an hour or so installing dependancies
609 2010-09-27 21:45:58 <briareus> yeah, it seems I need many deps for this, but that's ok.
610 2010-09-27 21:46:03 <kermit> briareus: then run wx-confing --cxx;wx-config --cppflags  and put what it says in the Makefile, then make
611 2010-09-27 21:46:10 <kermit> briareus: and you need wx 2.9, not 2.8
612 2010-09-27 21:46:11 <FreeMoney> 1 block = 50 coins
613 2010-09-27 21:46:32 <kermit> briareus: also wx needs 1GB of space to compile
614 2010-09-27 21:46:34 <FreeMoney> my last one was on aug31st so... 27 days running half time
615 2010-09-27 21:47:05 <briareus> crap, I need a gig of compile space?  ...then I can't even do it on this machine
616 2010-09-27 21:47:08 <kermit> briareus: and no i cant make a static binary for you, that fails
617 2010-09-27 21:47:13 <kermit> briareus: unless you already have wx 2.9
618 2010-09-27 21:47:31 <briareus> no that's ok, I'm fine with making it, I just need to use another computer
619 2010-09-27 21:47:48 <kermit> but you'll still need wx 2.9 on that computer
620 2010-09-27 21:47:56 <briareus> that's what I mean
621 2010-09-27 21:47:57 <kermit> er well maybe it staticly links that part
622 2010-09-27 21:48:07 <kermit> some things staticly link, some dont
623 2010-09-27 21:48:19 <blablaa> doublec, what's the logic of converging to a fixed money supply?
624 2010-09-27 21:48:32 <kermit> i can make one thats as static as it can be and send you that if you want
625 2010-09-27 21:49:43 <doublec> blablaa, I don't know enough about the economics or the math of it to answer accurately, sorry
626 2010-09-27 21:50:35 <kermit> blablaa: i considered that the hard coded deflation is to encourage initial investment
627 2010-09-27 21:50:57 <blablaa> doublec, thx anyway :)
628 2010-09-27 21:51:02 <blablaa> kermit, i also considered that
629 2010-09-27 21:51:08 <briareus> doublec: you shouldn't have to know it to trade bitcoins :)
630 2010-09-27 21:51:13 <kermit> blablaa: its effectively incentivizing me, anyway
631 2010-09-27 21:51:29 <doublec> briareus, that's my theory. As long as I can buy things with it and earn it I'm ok with it
632 2010-09-27 21:51:35 <FreeMoney> I already have a bunch of currency that can be diluted, I don't need another
633 2010-09-27 21:52:26 <blablaa> kermit, heh
634 2010-09-27 21:55:23 <doublec> briareus, you can build a command line only client if that's useful
635 2010-09-27 21:55:28 <doublec> briareus, without needing a ton of space
636 2010-09-27 21:55:43 <doublec> briareus, make -f makefile.unix bitcoind
637 2010-09-27 21:56:26 <briareus> nice, I'll try that
638 2010-09-27 21:56:35 <blablaa> kermit, i think the "design space" is interesting.. for example something could be designed which gives a fixed amount of coins to each physical person whose parents have not already joined this..
639 2010-09-27 21:57:10 <briareus> doublec: is there a way to find what deps I would need for that?
640 2010-09-27 21:57:16 <blablaa> kermit, for example.. 50 coins could be fixed as "default" inheritance
641 2010-09-27 21:57:25 <briareus> doublec: looks like I will still need wx
642 2010-09-27 21:57:39 <doublec> briareus, just boost. You don't need wx
643 2010-09-27 21:57:57 <blablaa> kermit, but hmm.. there are problems..
644 2010-09-27 21:58:15 <kermit> blablaa: i am concerned that volatility will be in inverse proportion to the remaining uncalculated coins
645 2010-09-27 21:58:23 <doublec> briareus, also bdb
646 2010-09-27 21:58:25 <briareus> doublec: the build failed immediately, first step, I see wx in the g++ command. But I'll try boost
647 2010-09-27 21:58:42 <doublec> briareus, I think it's just include headers but they're not used
648 2010-09-27 21:58:50 <kermit> briareus: did you install wx 2.9  ?
649 2010-09-27 21:59:17 <briareus> kermit: you said I'd probably need a gig compile space for wx, which I don't have. I need to get another computer for such
650 2010-09-27 21:59:24 <blablaa> kermit, yep
651 2010-09-27 21:59:39 <blablaa> kermit, my concern is more direct.. i'm not sure bitcoins are worth something..
652 2010-09-27 21:59:45 <briareus> doublec: is bdb = lbdb ?
653 2010-09-27 21:59:58 <blablaa> kermit, but fundamentally it is same as your.. we'll see clearly how much they're worth when they can no longer be produced
654 2010-09-27 21:59:59 <doublec> briareus, yes
655 2010-09-27 21:59:59 <kermit> blablaa: thats what people said about gold
656 2010-09-27 22:00:07 <briareus> blablaa: if people believe dollars are worth something, and people believe bitcoins are worth something, same thing.
657 2010-09-27 22:00:21 <kermit> they both have utility as a currency
658 2010-09-27 22:00:41 <kermit> the per unit value however is going to volatilie
659 2010-09-27 22:00:56 <kermit> but so what
660 2010-09-27 22:02:04 <kermit> briareus: i can try to make one with the png lib staticly linked
661 2010-09-27 22:02:10 <kermit> briareus: since i already have all the deps
662 2010-09-27 22:02:34 <briareus> [ installed ] - boost-1.38.0-i486-2   <--and I just installed lbdb, so I'll see if that cli-only bitcoind works
663 2010-09-27 22:03:16 <kermit> briareus: oh did you try just running bitcoind instead?
664 2010-09-27 22:03:19 <briareus> nope, failure. I'll need to make that wx it seems. kermit I do appreciate it, but I should probably be able to make it
665 2010-09-27 22:03:23 <kermit> briareus: that has much less dependancies
666 2010-09-27 22:03:27 <briareus> kermit: yes, but it still fails immediately
667 2010-09-27 22:03:34 <kermit> briareus: same libpng problem?
668 2010-09-27 22:03:42 <kermit> briareus: try building bitcoind, that doestn need wx
669 2010-09-27 22:04:07 <briareus> no, in this case the build fails with an error I don't recognize but the g++ command has wxdebug and wxgtk in the command
670 2010-09-27 22:04:17 <briareus> so it seems I need ex either way?
671 2010-09-27 22:04:20 <briareus> ex*
672 2010-09-27 22:04:24 <kermit> briareus: 'make bitcoind' complains about wx?
673 2010-09-27 22:04:27 <briareus> grrr, fatfiinger
674 2010-09-27 22:04:36 <briareus> make -f makefile.unix bitcoind
675 2010-09-27 22:05:01 <doublec> briareus, paste the error
676 2010-09-27 22:05:06 <doublec> briareus, to a pastebin
677 2010-09-27 22:05:22 <briareus> http://pastebin.com/JMhACyvs
678 2010-09-27 22:05:58 <kermit> CDB? is that berkley DB?
679 2010-09-27 22:06:00 <briareus> it mentions wx-2.9 right in that command thats breaking
680 2010-09-27 22:06:09 <doublec> briareus, it's the db library that's the issue
681 2010-09-27 22:06:12 <briareus> I have no idea what cdb is, I'm not a programmer
682 2010-09-27 22:06:18 <kermit> briareus: that mention is irrevelant
683 2010-09-27 22:06:22 <briareus> oh
684 2010-09-27 22:06:39 <kermit> briareus: its just saying where to look fro wx if it needs it, but it doesnt need it
685 2010-09-27 22:06:41 <doublec> briareus, what version of bdb did you install?
686 2010-09-27 22:07:29 <briareus> looks like 0.36
687 2010-09-27 22:07:45 <briareus> lbdb 0.36
688 2010-09-27 22:08:59 <doublec> briareus, need libdb4.7++
689 2010-09-27 22:09:08 <doublec> and libdb4.7
690 2010-09-27 22:09:39 <doublec> sorry I put you wrong before, it wasn't libbdb
691 2010-09-27 22:09:56 <doublec> build-unix.txt has the dependancies listed
692 2010-09-27 22:09:58 <briareus> oh
693 2010-09-27 22:10:28 <doublec> It also says: "You need Berkeley DB 4.7.  Don't use 4.8"
694 2010-09-27 22:14:07 <kermit> briareus: are you sure bitcoind gave you an error about libpng?
695 2010-09-27 22:14:26 <kermit> mine isnt linked to libpng
696 2010-09-27 22:14:27 <briareus> kermit: it gave the error I pastebinned, I have no idea what it means
697 2010-09-27 22:14:35 <briareus> http://pastebin.com/JMhACyvs
698 2010-09-27 22:14:40 <briareus> oh you mean initially
699 2010-09-27 22:14:49 <kermit> briareus: yeah, running it
700 2010-09-27 22:14:57 <briareus> <[ briareus@slacktop ]> ~/apps/bitcoin-0.3.12/bin/32$ ./bitcoin
701 2010-09-27 22:14:58 <briareus> ./bitcoin: /usr/lib/libpng12.so.0: no version information available (required by ./bitcoin)
702 2010-09-27 22:15:02 <briareus> and it just hangs there
703 2010-09-27 22:15:12 <kermit> bitbcoind
704 2010-09-27 22:15:14 <kermit> dddddddddd
705 2010-09-27 22:16:01 <briareus> well that might be working
706 2010-09-27 22:16:22 <briareus> it's telling me to set passwords in the blah blah (no surprise)
707 2010-09-27 22:16:31 <kermit> just make something up
708 2010-09-27 22:16:39 <kermit> i dont know what its even used for
709 2010-09-27 22:16:43 <doublec> briareus, yeah sounds like it's working
710 2010-09-27 22:16:56 <kermit> the GUI is pretty boring anyway, you arnet missing anything
711 2010-09-27 22:16:58 <doublec> kermit, it's for when you connect to it with a json-rpc client
712 2010-09-27 22:17:19 <doublec> kermit, it lets you control bitcoind from a third party program
713 2010-09-27 22:17:54 <doublec> the password is there so random programs on your machine don't connect to it and do bad stuff
714 2010-09-27 22:18:14 <doublec> although those random programs could also just read the password out of the .conf file
715 2010-09-27 22:18:19 <kermit> doublec: heh
716 2010-09-27 22:18:37 <kermit> not if theyy're a diffferent user
717 2010-09-27 22:18:40 <doublec> true
718 2010-09-27 22:18:48 <kermit> doublec: so you can get stats, but to do transactions it would prompt you?
719 2010-09-27 22:19:01 <doublec> kermit, no you can do anything via json-rpc including send transactions
720 2010-09-27 22:19:10 <kermit> without a pw?
721 2010-09-27 22:19:14 <doublec> you need the pw
722 2010-09-27 22:19:19 <doublec> to even connect
723 2010-09-27 22:20:00 <doublec> the password is sent over clear text though so you need to keep that in mind if you are using the json-rpc interface over a public network to a bitcoind running on another machine
724 2010-09-27 22:20:10 <doublec> always tunnel it through ssh or something
725 2010-09-27 22:20:13 <briareus> i like how firefox freaks out on the bitcoin.org wiki, tells me its an unsafe site, recommends I dont visit it
726 2010-09-27 22:20:20 <doublec> yeah I hate that
727 2010-09-27 22:20:26 <kermit> doublec: it doest prompt me for 'getinfo'
728 2010-09-27 22:20:51 <doublec> kermit, it never prompt's you for anything
729 2010-09-27 22:20:59 <kermit> doublec: you just said it prompts fro everthying
730 2010-09-27 22:21:02 <briareus> rpcuser=anything
731 2010-09-27 22:21:03 <briareus> rpcpassword=anything
732 2010-09-27 22:21:05 <briareus> ...that's it?
733 2010-09-27 22:21:10 <doublec> briareus, yes
734 2010-09-27 22:21:17 <kermit> briareus: i think browsers say that for any https that didnt buy a key
735 2010-09-27 22:21:21 <doublec> kermit, erm did I? Might be a typo.
736 2010-09-27 22:21:32 <kermit> doublec: when are you ever prompted for a password?
737 2010-09-27 22:21:46 <doublec> kermit, never - where did I say you were prompted for a password?
738 2010-09-27 22:21:58 <kermit> doublec: when is the password ever used?
739 2010-09-27 22:22:10 <doublec> kermit, it's used by third party programs
740 2010-09-27 22:22:20 <doublec> kermit, they need it to access the json-rpc interface
741 2010-09-27 22:22:20 <kermit> ok we're going in cicles, i dont care this bad
742 2010-09-27 22:22:37 <doublec> kermit, so you need to tell the third party program what the password is
743 2010-09-27 22:22:48 <doublec> kermit, bitcoind also uses it to communicate with the running daemon
744 2010-09-27 22:22:57 <kermit> so you're prompted by anything other than bitcoind?
745 2010-09-27 22:22:58 <doublec> kermit, when you send it commands like getinfo. It reads it from the .conf file.
746 2010-09-27 22:23:05 <kermit> ah
747 2010-09-27 22:23:10 <doublec> kermit, prompted or it's stored somewhere. That depends on the program.
748 2010-09-27 22:24:23 <briareus> getblockcount  3598
749 2010-09-27 22:24:29 <briareus> getdifficulty    1.0000000
750 2010-09-27 22:24:35 <briareus> getconnectioncount    3
751 2010-09-27 22:24:43 <doublec> kermit, browsers say that for any certificate signed by someone they don't recognise. So primarily self signed certificates.
752 2010-09-27 22:25:00 <doublec> it's saying basically that they can't confirm the identity of the website
753 2010-09-27 22:25:18 <briareus> huh, block count constnatly increasing
754 2010-09-27 22:25:29 <kermit> briareus: its downloading the journal
755 2010-09-27 22:25:31 <briareus> interesting :) need to read more of this
756 2010-09-27 22:25:43 <doublec> briareus, it needs to download 82,478 of them
757 2010-09-27 22:25:51 <doublec> briareus, then you can start generating
758 2010-09-27 22:27:07 <briareus> bitcoind getnewaddress <label>   <---suggestions? wiki said he used his username
759 2010-09-27 22:28:25 <kermit> the label is just a label, it doestn do anything
760 2010-09-27 22:28:39 <kermit> its just for your refernece
761 2010-09-27 22:30:26 <briareus> ok
762 2010-09-27 22:33:01 <kermit> maybe "ebaysales" or something
763 2010-09-27 22:33:15 <kermit> an account name, for the account 'number'
764 2010-09-27 23:03:25 <kaja> hello
765 2010-09-27 23:08:09 <doublec> hello
766 2010-09-27 23:08:20 <redengin> <echo>
767 2010-09-27 23:32:14 <smop> i have to receive all the blocks right
768 2010-09-27 23:32:23 <smop> before i can receive my transaction?
769 2010-09-27 23:37:31 <gavinandresen> smop: yes
770 2010-09-27 23:38:22 <smop> ah, that's why it's not going through
771 2010-09-27 23:38:26 <smop> i got a ways to go :)
772 2010-09-27 23:45:47 <kaja> hello. what is an rpcpassword?
773 2010-09-27 23:46:00 <kaja> i can't start bitcoind because it says i need an rpcpassword in ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
774 2010-09-27 23:46:56 <kermit> kaja: echo rpcpassword=something > ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
775 2010-09-27 23:47:41 <kaja> kermit: oh so i have to make my own password?
776 2010-09-27 23:47:49 <kermit> kaja: yes
777 2010-09-27 23:47:51 <kaja> i've been trying to find out what my rpcpassword is :P
778 2010-09-27 23:49:02 <kaja> kermit: but what is an rpcpassword?
779 2010-09-27 23:51:03 <kermit> kaja: if you're ever trying to use it, and it asks for a password, that'd be what you'd put