1 2010-10-17 00:01:07 <FreeMoney> eh
  2 2010-10-17 00:01:37 <FreeMoney> I'm saying that if mtgox allowed people to send MTGOX USD to each other then you could do this:
  3 2010-10-17 00:02:03 <theymos> Diablo-D3: Would you accept Pecunix for the BTC?
  4 2010-10-17 00:02:21 <Diablo-D3> theymos: I dont know... whats Pecunix?
  5 2010-10-17 00:02:31 <FreeMoney> I want to sell BTC so I put them on mtgox and get MTGOX USD then I find someone who doesn't mind liqpay and have them give me PP for the MTGOX USD
  6 2010-10-17 00:02:44 <FreeMoney> then they can buy coins or cash out via Liqpay
  7 2010-10-17 00:03:19 <theymos> Diablo-D3: It's like Liberty Reserve, but gold-backed and more trustworthy.
  8 2010-10-17 00:03:31 <FreeMoney> I'm just saying that if some people can withdraw and transfers can be made then it will fix the market , but maybe not be super convenient
  9 2010-10-17 00:03:33 <Diablo-D3> theymos: how hard is it to get USD back out of it?
 10 2010-10-17 00:03:43 <theymos> Diablo-D3: Same as LR.
 11 2010-10-17 00:03:52 <Diablo-D3> Ive never used LR though
 12 2010-10-17 00:04:23 <theymos> Diablo-D3: Pretty hard... You probably don't want it if you don't use it already.
 13 2010-10-17 00:04:33 <Diablo-D3> blaaaaaaargh
 14 2010-10-17 00:06:18 <Kiba> growing pain in an economy with little services and goods
 15 2010-10-17 00:06:53 <Diablo-D3> well I want to sell the btc to improve the economy a little
 16 2010-10-17 00:06:57 <Diablo-D3> but meh
 17 2010-10-17 00:07:08 <Diablo-D3> I'll wait until I have like 50k of them or something
 18 2010-10-17 00:08:40 <Kiba> "Yo, there are fanastic opportunity in X MMO!"
 19 2010-10-17 00:08:44 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: except
 20 2010-10-17 00:08:46 <Diablo-D3> you have WoW
 21 2010-10-17 00:08:51 <Diablo-D3> which just grows wildly out of control
 22 2010-10-17 00:11:49 <yebyen> i am still thinking,
 23 2010-10-17 00:11:50 <yebyen> mmo craps
 24 2010-10-17 00:11:57 <yebyen> pyramid scheme ftw
 25 2010-10-17 00:15:00 <Kiba> hmm
 26 2010-10-17 00:15:01 <Kiba> trusts
 27 2010-10-17 00:15:23 <Kiba> bitcoin community is a place by which people can trust..
 28 2010-10-17 00:15:33 <yebyen> the real weakness of this currency is that there are more valuable currencies that it is traded against
 29 2010-10-17 00:15:41 <yebyen> if this was a cult currency, we would all be much better off
 30 2010-10-17 00:15:56 <Diablo-D3> well, do you know any cults?
 31 2010-10-17 00:16:08 <yebyen> do you smoke weed?
 32 2010-10-17 00:16:28 <yebyen> lol
 33 2010-10-17 00:17:03 <theymos> Maybe we should market Bitcoin to Scientology. They have lots of cash flow that they don't want people to know about.
 34 2010-10-17 00:17:47 <noagendamarket> all that is needed is a way to prove that cash and btc exist at some location
 35 2010-10-17 00:17:51 <yebyen> really i don't want a bitcoin from you unless i would also take a check from you
 36 2010-10-17 00:18:09 <noagendamarket> https://loom.cc/?function=grid_tutorial&help=1
 37 2010-10-17 00:18:09 <yebyen> except that it doesn't help me for you to have all the bitcoins
 38 2010-10-17 00:18:22 <genjix> hey
 39 2010-10-17 00:18:36 <genjix> can anyone tell me why the upper limit is at 21 million?
 40 2010-10-17 00:18:41 <genjix> isn't that a bit low?
 41 2010-10-17 00:18:42 <yebyen> i like the private bitcoin network idea
 42 2010-10-17 00:18:52 <yebyen> i have my own bitcoins generating, not fighting with any other computers
 43 2010-10-17 00:18:55 <yebyen> up over 8000 blocks already
 44 2010-10-17 00:19:07 <yebyen> so 400k coins supposedly gone to somewher
 45 2010-10-17 00:19:17 <yebyen> i wonder if i'll ever see those lost 210k
 46 2010-10-17 00:19:23 <yebyen> or if i'll ever miss them
 47 2010-10-17 00:19:47 <theymos> genjix: If money is divisible, it doesn't matter how much of it there is. There is a small limited supply of gold, but that was used as money for thousands of years.
 48 2010-10-17 00:19:56 <genjix> ohh cool :)
 49 2010-10-17 00:20:52 <yebyen> android builds seem to be going
 50 2010-10-17 00:21:00 <yebyen> generic_x86 and eeepc will be ready in a few hours
 51 2010-10-17 00:21:04 <yebyen> for me to poop on
 52 2010-10-17 00:21:37 <genjix> i love the idea of this
 53 2010-10-17 00:38:38 <yebyen> android bitcoin craps?
 54 2010-10-17 00:39:18 <yebyen> to provide backup funding to prevent mtgox from getting his paypal suspended
 55 2010-10-17 00:39:36 <yebyen> there will be a link to a craps app that you can play on android, lol
 56 2010-10-17 00:39:43 <yebyen> i think we should have an arm port
 57 2010-10-17 00:42:10 <yebyen> probably small number of hashes from an android cpu
 58 2010-10-17 00:42:16 <yebyen> but a lot of them out there
 59 2010-10-17 00:42:28 <yebyen> and always network enabled
 60 2010-10-17 00:42:30 <jrabbit> maybe its gpu miht be of use?
 61 2010-10-17 00:42:30 <thrashaholic> that's kind of interesting
 62 2010-10-17 00:42:36 <thrashaholic> a mobile swarm of generators
 63 2010-10-17 00:42:45 <jrabbit> the geneeratign woudl be useless tbh
 64 2010-10-17 00:42:47 <Diablo-D3> christ
 65 2010-10-17 00:42:50 <Diablo-D3> I have found a webcomic
 66 2010-10-17 00:42:52 <Diablo-D3> that actually
 67 2010-10-17 00:42:54 <jrabbit> but mobile bitconi cleints woudl be useful
 68 2010-10-17 00:42:58 <Diablo-D3> makes me want to stab people
 69 2010-10-17 00:43:04 <yebyen> against our clusters perhaps
 70 2010-10-17 00:43:10 <doublec> another interesting one would be javascript clients
 71 2010-10-17 00:43:19 <yebyen> wow
 72 2010-10-17 00:43:21 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: what's the webcomic? :)
 73 2010-10-17 00:43:23 <jrabbit> doublec: dont even
 74 2010-10-17 00:43:24 <yebyen> web zombies
 75 2010-10-17 00:43:25 <doublec> so a bit of JS in your website would have visitors compute hashes
 76 2010-10-17 00:43:25 <jrabbit> :(
 77 2010-10-17 00:43:29 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: and.. how much do you want per btc?
 78 2010-10-17 00:43:58 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: sore thumbs
 79 2010-10-17 00:44:00 <Diablo-D3> its complete shit
 80 2010-10-17 00:44:04 <Diablo-D3> the art style is shit
 81 2010-10-17 00:44:08 <Diablo-D3> the logic is nonexistent
 82 2010-10-17 00:44:13 <Diablo-D3> and its SUPPOSED to be funny
 83 2010-10-17 00:44:15 <Diablo-D3> yet
 84 2010-10-17 00:44:16 <Diablo-D3> isnt
 85 2010-10-17 00:44:36 <Diablo-D3> and the saturation of colors is burning my retinas
 86 2010-10-17 00:45:20 <thrashaholic> hmm
 87 2010-10-17 00:47:02 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: heh well, first glance - doesn't seem like i'd spend my time on it... but doesn't seem stab-worthy really. plenty of crap out there on the net.
 88 2010-10-17 00:47:16 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: anyway, more to the point.. :) btc?
 89 2010-10-17 00:49:53 <Diablo-D3> well
 90 2010-10-17 00:49:55 <Diablo-D3> Im thinking
 91 2010-10-17 00:50:03 <Diablo-D3> I have 655.55 btc
 92 2010-10-17 00:50:04 <Diablo-D3> thus
 93 2010-10-17 00:50:14 <Diablo-D3> USD $65.55
 94 2010-10-17 00:50:26 <nanotube> recent price on bcm in lrusd is 0.0820
 95 2010-10-17 00:51:19 <Diablo-D3> well
 96 2010-10-17 00:51:19 <nanotube> my offer is 655.55*0.08 = 52.44
 97 2010-10-17 00:51:25 <Diablo-D3> it'd be nice if someone could put the bot back up
 98 2010-10-17 00:52:06 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: also, Im not accepting lr or pecunix or anything else that involves me having to stab people
 99 2010-10-17 00:52:40 <nanotube> my offer is in normal usd, via paypal
100 2010-10-17 00:54:18 <nanotube> so, you could sell your btc on bcm for 0.082 lrusd per btc, but then would have to deal with converting to 'normal' usd, which is a pain, and has fees
101 2010-10-17 00:54:29 <nanotube> or, you could sell at 0.08 to me for normal usd
102 2010-10-17 00:54:40 <nanotube> a winning proposition, i think :)
103 2010-10-17 00:55:16 <Diablo-D3> who runs bcm?
104 2010-10-17 00:55:24 <nanotube> dwdollar runs bcm
105 2010-10-17 00:55:43 <Diablo-D3> dwdollar: hey you
106 2010-10-17 00:55:46 <nanotube> heh
107 2010-10-17 00:56:37 <nanotube> is account registration still closed?
108 2010-10-17 00:56:39 <Diablo-D3> yes
109 2010-10-17 00:56:44 <nanotube> i thought it opened back up... when was the last you tried
110 2010-10-17 00:57:06 <Diablo-D3> Im looking right at the front page
111 2010-10-17 00:58:42 <nanotube> ah... that's new, then. last i looked a couple of days ago, it was open
112 2010-10-17 01:00:35 <nanotube> anyway, feel free to let me know what you think about my offer. :) offer stands for another 60minutes, starting now.
113 2010-10-17 01:00:53 <Diablo-D3> I wonder where Art is
114 2010-10-17 01:00:57 <Diablo-D3> he should be talking me out of this
115 2010-10-17 01:02:53 <nanotube> he sells his btc for lrusd on bcm
116 2010-10-17 01:03:16 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but wtf is he using the lr for
117 2010-10-17 01:03:22 <Diablo-D3> it looks useless
118 2010-10-17 01:03:42 <nanotube> good question... there probably aren't that many merchants accepting it directly...
119 2010-10-17 01:03:57 <nanotube> but he could be withdrawing it to his bank account with bank wires
120 2010-10-17 01:05:06 <theymos> nanotube: I think that is what he's doing. I offered to pay him directly with wire transfer, and he declined due to bad currency conversion rates. Presumably he can convert LRUSD directly into his currency at a good rate.
121 2010-10-17 01:05:24 <nanotube> which would involve some fees... but if he does it in large chunks, the fee may be smaller percentage-wise
122 2010-10-17 01:06:36 <nanotube> theymos: hmm well, i doubt he can get a better than 1/1 ratio for usd/lrusd... but he probably does it in chunks of > 1000, to spread the wire fee over more usd
123 2010-10-17 01:07:51 <Diablo-D3> huh.
124 2010-10-17 01:07:55 <Diablo-D3> goddamn him
125 2010-10-17 01:08:01 <Diablo-D3> he probably makes like 1000 BTC a day
126 2010-10-17 01:08:06 <Diablo-D3> I havent made 1000 BTC _EVER_
127 2010-10-17 01:08:10 <nanotube> hehe
128 2010-10-17 01:08:33 <nanotube> yea i think he makes 2-3k btc per day
129 2010-10-17 01:08:50 <nanotube> s/makes/generates/
130 2010-10-17 01:09:22 <Diablo-D3> angry diablo is angry
131 2010-10-17 01:09:26 <nanotube> haha
132 2010-10-17 01:09:33 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: so wait, how do I know you're trustworthy?
133 2010-10-17 01:09:55 <theymos> Diablo-D3: He is.
134 2010-10-17 01:10:03 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: trust theymos :)
135 2010-10-17 01:10:54 <Diablo-D3> theymos: but how do I know YOU
136 2010-10-17 01:10:55 <Diablo-D3> er
137 2010-10-17 01:10:59 <Diablo-D3> YOU'RE trustworthy?!
138 2010-10-17 01:11:16 <Diablo-D3> Im going to remap my enter button someday, srsly
139 2010-10-17 01:12:26 <nanotube> the more important question is... how do i know /you/ are trustworthy :)
140 2010-10-17 01:12:45 <Diablo-D3> *gasp!*
141 2010-10-17 01:13:01 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: as far as my side of the tx, i'll send you funds from pp balance, using 'personal gift', which is non-chargebackable.
142 2010-10-17 01:13:12 <nanotube> but how do i know you'll send me the btc in exchange
143 2010-10-17 01:13:55 <theymos> I'll escrow for 5 BTC. (Though you're both trusted enough that it's not really necessary...)
144 2010-10-17 01:14:09 <Diablo-D3> yeah, I doubt Im screwing anyone here
145 2010-10-17 01:14:29 <Diablo-D3> poor me :<
146 2010-10-17 01:15:05 <Diablo-D3> I can send from bitcoind cant I?
147 2010-10-17 01:16:03 <theymos> Diablo-D3: bitcoind sendtoaddress (address) (amount)
148 2010-10-17 01:16:38 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: so 0.08? hrm, I could do worse, I guess.
149 2010-10-17 01:19:28 <Diablo-D3> wait, nanotube is on ##finance! *gasp!*
150 2010-10-17 01:19:34 <nanotube> theymos: Diablo-D3 you know, just to pave new ground... i'd like to take you up on the escrow offer. :)
151 2010-10-17 01:19:42 <thrashaholic> he's an academic :O
152 2010-10-17 01:20:04 <thrashaholic> yay escrow
153 2010-10-17 01:20:25 <Diablo-D3> did anyone ever end up making a trustworthy escrow site?
154 2010-10-17 01:20:29 <Diablo-D3> I remember that being discussed
155 2010-10-17 01:20:43 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: escrow is on may todo list....
156 2010-10-17 01:20:49 <nanotube> s/may/my/
157 2010-10-17 01:21:18 <Diablo-D3> apparently theymos gets to play escrow
158 2010-10-17 01:21:20 <theymos> I was thinking of making an escrow site with a mechanism similar to the built-in Bitcoin one.
159 2010-10-17 01:21:37 <Kiba> I had escrowed before...
160 2010-10-17 01:23:15 <nanotube> theymos: so... what do you say, you get btc from Diablo-D3, notify me when you have it, then i send ppusd to Diablo-D3 , he notifies you when he gets it, you remit the btc-5 to me?
161 2010-10-17 01:23:30 <nanotube> wouldn't that be fun? :) heh
162 2010-10-17 01:24:10 <theymos> nanotube: Yes. I willl PM the address to Diablo-D3.
163 2010-10-17 01:24:20 <Kiba> there are various charity competing for bitcoin donations...hmmmm
164 2010-10-17 01:24:30 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: does that work for you, btw?
165 2010-10-17 01:24:39 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: sure, why not
166 2010-10-17 01:24:58 <nanotube> ok. :)
167 2010-10-17 01:25:05 <nanotube> theymos: let me know when you receive the funds.
168 2010-10-17 01:25:18 <theymos> OK
169 2010-10-17 01:27:12 <theymos> Funds received. 655.55 BTC.
170 2010-10-17 01:27:49 <nanotube> ok, sending pp to diablo
171 2010-10-17 01:29:50 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: pp funds sent
172 2010-10-17 01:30:40 <Diablo-D3> it worked!
173 2010-10-17 01:30:43 <nanotube> heh
174 2010-10-17 01:31:04 <Diablo-D3> I am now on my way to being rich like art is
175 2010-10-17 01:31:14 <nanotube> o/
176 2010-10-17 01:31:41 <theymos> 650.55 sent to nanotube. Easiest 5 BTC I've ever made! :)
177 2010-10-17 01:31:53 <nanotube> nice :) /me waits for it
178 2010-10-17 01:32:03 <nanotube> theymos: thank you for your services. :) hehe
179 2010-10-17 01:32:28 <nanotube> ooh, 650 received, and even have 1 confirmation to go with it
180 2010-10-17 01:33:09 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: theymos: pleasure doing business :)
181 2010-10-17 01:34:28 <Diablo-D3> so I am now.... $52.44 closer to buying a new video card
182 2010-10-17 01:35:08 <nanotube> hehe
183 2010-10-17 01:35:35 <Diablo-D3> which is, roughly, 1/10th of what a 6970 is going to cost
184 2010-10-17 01:36:04 <nanotube> hehe well... depending on how much extra gen-power it'll give you... you could buy it early in anticipation of it paying for itself.
185 2010-10-17 01:36:40 <theymos> Diablo-D3: You could sell generation time in advance.
186 2010-10-17 01:37:37 <nanotube> ooh, that too. interesting idea. :)
187 2010-10-17 01:37:40 <Diablo-D3> my generation time is not consistent
188 2010-10-17 01:37:52 <Diablo-D3> also, btw, Im broke
189 2010-10-17 01:38:43 <nanotube> X days at Y MHps for $bla .
190 2010-10-17 01:39:26 <nanotube> due to the riskiness though, you'd have to charge less than the P(gen)/day * btc/gen * days
191 2010-10-17 01:39:59 <Diablo-D3> dude
192 2010-10-17 01:40:04 <Diablo-D3> I turn this machine off periodically
193 2010-10-17 01:40:08 <Diablo-D3> as in, the 8 hours I sleep
194 2010-10-17 01:40:18 <Diablo-D3> and I turn off the opencl gen when I game
195 2010-10-17 01:40:25 <Diablo-D3> and I game on the days I especially hate society
196 2010-10-17 01:40:34 <nanotube> riskiness coming from (a) possibility that less than expected is genned, plus (b) nonverifiability of you actually running the gen plus (c) you not underdisclosing how much you gen to stiff the buyer...
197 2010-10-17 01:40:36 <Diablo-D3> which is roughly... every day
198 2010-10-17 01:40:43 <doublec> anyone want to try connecting to a pooled/remote miner server?
199 2010-10-17 01:40:45 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: wow shit
200 2010-10-17 01:40:48 <doublec> I have a test one running
201 2010-10-17 01:40:51 <doublec> from this thread: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1458.20
202 2010-10-17 01:40:52 <bitbot> Pooled/Remote Mining
203 2010-10-17 01:40:55 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: I could just never do shit then :D
204 2010-10-17 01:41:16 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: well, no, as long as you make sure to start/stop the clock when you turn off gen, you can do whatever you want
205 2010-10-17 01:41:32 <nanotube> payment is for X hours of gen time at your mhps rate
206 2010-10-17 01:41:53 <theymos> Bitcoin periodically prints the time to debug.log, so tracking wouldn't be that difficult.
207 2010-10-17 01:41:55 <nanotube> so if you gen for an hour, then game some, then gen for another hour, then sleep for 8, total time you accrue is the 2 hours
208 2010-10-17 01:42:07 <nanotube> theymos: debug.log can be spoofed easily, though... just a text file
209 2010-10-17 01:42:17 <nanotube> especially when money is involved... ;)
210 2010-10-17 01:42:31 <theymos> Clearly, but it would be useful in calculating the uptime.
211 2010-10-17 01:43:02 <nanotube> true
212 2010-10-17 01:43:17 <nanotube> anyway, there's way too many risky variables involved for me to even consider buying gen time. :)
213 2010-10-17 01:43:28 <nanotube> (at least... from a person of unknown trustworthiness)
214 2010-10-17 01:43:35 <nanotube> it would require a lot of preexisting trust
215 2010-10-17 01:43:55 <Diablo-D3> theres an easier way to buy gen time
216 2010-10-17 01:44:00 <Diablo-D3> BUY A FUCKING VIDEO CARD
217 2010-10-17 01:44:07 <nanotube> heh true
218 2010-10-17 01:44:09 <jgarzik> an ATI video card, apparently
219 2010-10-17 01:44:16 <nanotube> but gen time can be bought in smaller chunks than video cards
220 2010-10-17 01:46:48 <theymos> I wonder why tcatm is selling generation time when it would clearly be more profitable for him not to.
221 2010-10-17 01:47:17 <jgarzik> in the thread, I think he said he wanted to give The Little Guy a chance to participate
222 2010-10-17 01:48:56 <Diablo-D3> huh, paypal has 87.2 million people
223 2010-10-17 01:49:07 <Diablo-D3> we have... 87.2 people. Im not even sure how .2 people works.
224 2010-10-17 01:49:59 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: cut off just above the knee. :P
225 2010-10-17 01:50:04 <FreeMoney> :theymos I think he can buy as much as he wants in addition to all he sells to us.
226 2010-10-17 01:50:57 <Diablo-D3> "balance" : 0.00000000,
227 2010-10-17 01:51:01 <Diablo-D3> I am sad :<
228 2010-10-17 01:51:34 <jgarzik> if you got BTC, I got LRUSD </plug>
229 2010-10-17 01:51:36 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: look at your paypal balance od 52.44 and rejoice :)
230 2010-10-17 01:51:47 <nanotube> s/od/of/
231 2010-10-17 01:51:50 <Diablo-D3> actually, Im double rejoicing here
232 2010-10-17 01:51:59 <Diablo-D3> I just realized I had another $40 some in there
233 2010-10-17 01:52:08 <nanotube> haha nice
234 2010-10-17 01:52:12 <Diablo-D3> that somehow I forgot to transfer out
235 2010-10-17 01:52:17 <Diablo-D3> which I never do
236 2010-10-17 01:52:34 <Diablo-D3> so do I
237 2010-10-17 01:52:36 <Diablo-D3> I dont trust them
238 2010-10-17 01:53:08 <Kiba> ;mtgox
239 2010-10-17 01:53:10 <bitbot> Kiba: Mt. Gox: Last(0.102) High(0.103) Low(0.1) BestSellPrice(0.1) BestBuyPrice(0.103) Volume(7299)
240 2010-10-17 01:53:16 <theymos> Selling generation time (by being a pooled mining client, for example) just seems like "reverse gambling stupidity" to me. You *know* you're going to win eventually, but yet you give away money to get paid quicker.
241 2010-10-17 01:53:17 <Diablo-D3> wrong kind of prices kiba
242 2010-10-17 01:53:32 <Diablo-D3> theymos: well duh
243 2010-10-17 01:53:36 <Diablo-D3> its called a check cashing place
244 2010-10-17 01:53:44 <Diablo-D3> or, actually, worse, its a payday loan place
245 2010-10-17 01:54:26 <nanotube> heh
246 2010-10-17 01:55:08 <Diablo-D3> okay so
247 2010-10-17 01:55:12 <Diablo-D3> cheapest 5970 is $600
248 2010-10-17 01:55:15 <Diablo-D3> FFFFFFFffffFFffFFFffFFffFFFffFFFffFFff
249 2010-10-17 01:56:04 <Diablo-D3> that'd be, roughly, over 9000 times faster than what I have now
250 2010-10-17 01:56:27 <Diablo-D3> and probably cause my machine to burst into flames
251 2010-10-17 01:56:35 <nanotube> haha
252 2010-10-17 01:58:58 <echelon> http://www.jokeoverflow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/fromthefuture-500x689.jpg
253 2010-10-17 01:59:32 <Diablo-D3> fffffff
254 2010-10-17 02:00:02 <echelon> :D
255 2010-10-17 02:06:18 <jgarzik> payday loans are truly evil.  I was an "investor" at prosper.com before they were attacked by state regulations.  I saw all sorts of hell payday loans would put people through
256 2010-10-17 02:07:37 <Diablo-D3> heh, I invested a small amount at propser too
257 2010-10-17 02:08:11 <echelon> i heard their interest rate is 100%?
258 2010-10-17 02:08:18 <Diablo-D3> whos?
259 2010-10-17 02:08:34 <echelon> oh, i dunno about prosper
260 2010-10-17 02:08:37 <Diablo-D3> because payday loans can exceed 400% actual (after fees and shit)
261 2010-10-17 02:08:52 <Diablo-D3> echelon: prosper is one of two major person to person loan sites
262 2010-10-17 02:09:02 <FreeMoney> price controls are what's evil
263 2010-10-17 02:10:15 <FreeMoney> there is a solution to the 'problem' of 'too much' profit, it is called freedom
264 2010-10-17 02:13:34 <theymos> The Bitcoin community seems to be the anarcho-capitalist ideal: smart people making mutually-beneficial deals and innovations without any coercement. Even if Bitcoin doesn't catch on, I'm glad to have experienced such a community.
265 2010-10-17 02:14:13 <Diablo-D3> yes, when you have a bunch of people who arent douchebags, shit doesnt happen
266 2010-10-17 02:14:18 <Diablo-D3> thats sort of how it works
267 2010-10-17 02:22:14 <genjix> so i've been generating coins for a few hours and have all blocks downloaded
268 2010-10-17 02:22:20 <genjix> but it still says 0.00?
269 2010-10-17 02:22:31 <Diablo-D3> why would it say otherwise?
270 2010-10-17 02:22:42 <genjix> oh :o
271 2010-10-17 02:22:55 <genjix> how long before I'll get 0.01? :)
272 2010-10-17 02:23:06 <Diablo-D3> it wont... for now, it goes in blocks of 50
273 2010-10-17 02:23:17 <Diablo-D3> its a random event
274 2010-10-17 02:23:22 <genjix> aha i see
275 2010-10-17 02:24:03 <genjix> echelon: haha that pic is hilarious
276 2010-10-17 02:24:08 <Kiba> theymos: too bad that fellow anarcho-capitalists don't join in.
277 2010-10-17 02:24:14 <FreeMoney> it'll be a long time on average genjix
278 2010-10-17 02:24:26 <Kiba> it's a pretty nice warm feeling that you're in a community of voluntaryists
279 2010-10-17 02:24:34 <FreeMoney> would you like me to send you a few cents?
280 2010-10-17 02:24:37 <Kiba> and by the virtue of being part of the community, entrepeneurs
281 2010-10-17 02:24:49 <genjix> FreeMoney: yep if it's not too much
282 2010-10-17 02:25:10 <genjix> 14tWgU3nPX43yDzWh5HCsnT6QyLvkyjAQh
283 2010-10-17 02:25:38 <genjix> pretty happy i found this cool project :)
284 2010-10-17 02:25:41 <Diablo-D3> why not just use the faucet?
285 2010-10-17 02:25:44 <Kiba> hackers and ciphergeeks
286 2010-10-17 02:26:06 <FreeMoney> bit quarter coming
287 2010-10-17 02:26:40 <fedorared> Because it's also proof you can send coins to any random person you meet
288 2010-10-17 02:26:59 <genjix> who wrote the esperanto text?
289 2010-10-17 02:27:33 <FreeMoney> yeah, it's nice to see it work a bunch of times imo
290 2010-10-17 02:27:42 <genjix> fuck yer! it works!
291 2010-10-17 02:27:59 <genjix> how do i confirm it?
292 2010-10-17 02:28:15 <genjix> kaj
293 2010-10-17 02:28:27 <fedorared> The network will automatically confirm it in the next few blocks
294 2010-10-17 02:28:31 <Kiba> I think my clock is wrong
295 2010-10-17 02:28:42 <lfm> 28 min past the hour?
296 2010-10-17 02:28:55 <Kiba> 2 minutes behind
297 2010-10-17 02:29:13 <Kiba> so mine read right now 00:27
298 2010-10-17 02:29:14 <genjix> i see. so say i made an online rpg with trading in (as an example)
299 2010-10-17 02:29:24 <genjix> that uses bitcoin currency.
300 2010-10-17 02:29:57 <genjix> then if i the game required real time trading, you'd need a central account in game which you convert to/from BTC?
301 2010-10-17 02:30:06 <Diablo-D3> well
302 2010-10-17 02:30:13 <Diablo-D3> if I did a game like that
303 2010-10-17 02:30:19 <Diablo-D3> I'd allow people to just convert from game currency to btc and back
304 2010-10-17 02:30:22 <genjix> like an in game cashier
305 2010-10-17 02:30:23 <Diablo-D3> but not use btc internally
306 2010-10-17 02:30:24 <genjix> yep
307 2010-10-17 02:30:58 <Kiba> charge 0.01
308 2010-10-17 02:31:12 <Kiba> to convert into in-game currency
309 2010-10-17 02:31:20 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: actually, I'd jew them percentage
310 2010-10-17 02:31:20 <lfm> genjix If I were doing that Id keep an account for each player in the game thas not actually on the bitcoin net. Keep in game transactions in the game and only make bitcoin net transactions if they want to transfer bitcoin into or out of the game
311 2010-10-17 02:31:27 <Diablo-D3> say, 1% either direction
312 2010-10-17 02:32:11 <FreeMoney> that won't be nearly as satisfying to people or as profitable to you as just selling some extra features or items or something
313 2010-10-17 02:32:16 <Kiba> I think I am going to change kibabase.com into an arcade
314 2010-10-17 02:32:18 <genjix> yep thats problematic, especially if the game is decentralised
315 2010-10-17 02:32:41 <Kiba> FreeMoney: I got an idea of charging people for upgrades for use in various game around the arcade
316 2010-10-17 02:33:09 <Kiba> the game design would make certain upgrades mandatory
317 2010-10-17 02:33:19 <lfm> kiba thats evil
318 2010-10-17 02:33:33 <Kiba> the way people get upgrade is to go to the game supermarket
319 2010-10-17 02:33:45 <Kiba> on certain days, the inventory price will be lowered
320 2010-10-17 02:33:46 <FreeMoney> if they are mandatory what are they upgrades from, some impossible situation?
321 2010-10-17 02:33:50 <genjix> required upgrades only once you're like 70% through the game and already invested lots of time into it :p
322 2010-10-17 02:33:53 <genjix> evil indeed
323 2010-10-17 02:33:58 <Kiba> than everyone combat each other to get upgrade and goodies
324 2010-10-17 02:34:23 <Kiba> while losing their chart upgrade
325 2010-10-17 02:34:28 <lfm> so what happens if they dont upgrade
326 2010-10-17 02:34:30 <Kiba> though attrition
327 2010-10-17 02:34:36 <Kiba> lfm: the game will be much much harder
328 2010-10-17 02:34:50 <lfm> thats not manditory then
329 2010-10-17 02:35:15 <Diablo-D3> that sounds rather fun
330 2010-10-17 02:35:15 <Kiba> no, but if they want high score, they might want to buy upgrades
331 2010-10-17 02:35:32 <Kiba> market rush, people losing chart upgrade
332 2010-10-17 02:35:40 <Kiba> the rest of the week, they buy chart upgrade
333 2010-10-17 02:35:45 <genjix> i always wonder why WoW and other MMORPG's try to stop trading
334 2010-10-17 02:35:46 <Kiba> only to lose them the next week
335 2010-10-17 02:35:52 <genjix> like you can't sell in game items
336 2010-10-17 02:35:57 <genjix> is there a reason for that?
337 2010-10-17 02:36:04 <fedorared> WoW gold selling causes lots of grief
338 2010-10-17 02:36:11 <fedorared> Hacked accounts and all kinds of nastiness
339 2010-10-17 02:36:13 <FreeMoney> I wonder if it keeps the price artificially high
340 2010-10-17 02:36:14 <Kiba> hoard of gold farmers...hmm
341 2010-10-17 02:36:23 <Kiba> general inflation?
342 2010-10-17 02:36:28 <genjix> i heard they have the GNP of a small country
343 2010-10-17 02:36:36 <Kiba> the problem is that gold are like created out of nowhere
344 2010-10-17 02:36:47 <lfm> genjix, its the perception that rich people get it easier, they dont have to do the work or learn the game.
345 2010-10-17 02:36:56 <genjix> i see
346 2010-10-17 02:37:01 <Kiba> I hate MMOs. They're work, basically
347 2010-10-17 02:37:05 <Kiba> my arcade is going to be fun.
348 2010-10-17 02:37:27 <genjix> well they should just make it so re-appropriating the goods is easy if you suck
349 2010-10-17 02:37:46 <Kiba> maybe they should not make it based on showing up?
350 2010-10-17 02:37:48 <genjix> therefore if you buy expensive items X but you suck then people just take them from you
351 2010-10-17 02:37:50 <lfm> genix ya, if you screw up it breaks
352 2010-10-17 02:37:57 <Kiba> if you fight a monster, you hit and hit and hit, then heal, and so on
353 2010-10-17 02:38:28 <Kiba> my arcade is going to be skill games of some sort
354 2010-10-17 02:39:02 <genjix> sounds cool
355 2010-10-17 02:40:10 <Kiba> but first, I gottach finish my first web app and earn some money
356 2010-10-17 02:40:47 <Kiba> and repair my clock
357 2010-10-17 02:42:26 <genjix> woo got my first 0.25 BTC
358 2010-10-17 02:42:30 <genjix> so happy
359 2010-10-17 02:42:41 <Kiba> for what?
360 2010-10-17 02:43:12 <genjix> happy about this new thing i've found
361 2010-10-17 02:44:29 <lfm> how do you get 0.25btc?
362 2010-10-17 02:47:55 <lfm> like an odd number unless he hit the fauctet 5 times or something
363 2010-10-17 02:48:32 <fedorared> By asking nicely I think
364 2010-10-17 02:54:47 <genjix> yep thank you freemon ;)
365 2010-10-17 02:55:19 <thrashaholic> damn you have more than me! ;)
366 2010-10-17 03:02:12 <lfm> the block rate is accelerating again. now: Average interval since last diff change: 7.22 min
367 2010-10-17 03:04:44 <genjix> the bitcoin program should donate the coinages by SI prefixes
368 2010-10-17 03:05:00 <genjix> 0.001 BTC = 1 mBTC
369 2010-10-17 03:05:49 <genjix> 0.0001 BTC = 100 ???BTC .etc
370 2010-10-17 03:11:40 <genjix> wont there be a problem between earlier adopters of bitcoin and later adopter? a price gap?
371 2010-10-17 03:13:04 <joe_1> the early adopters may hope that the price will skyrocket as more people from general society start using bitcoins
372 2010-10-17 03:14:48 <genjix> right, but they have more of the bitcoins. newcomers would have less
373 2010-10-17 03:15:48 <genjix> it is food for thought that things made on the net today have little value and are unpaid because no micro-payment system exists :) really glad i found this project
374 2010-10-17 03:16:18 <genjix> cannon fodder against the argument that you need copyright to enforce quality content
375 2010-10-17 03:16:21 <fedorared> OK early adopters had more time to generate. What are they going to do with them? Spend them, if there is any value to them.
376 2010-10-17 03:17:17 <thrashaholic> right, and spend them at the price that newcomers "bought in" at
377 2010-10-17 03:17:46 <genjix> yep well deflation is only caused by a low velocity
378 2010-10-17 03:18:15 <genjix> and with many small micropayments instead of few big payments, you kind of guard against concentration of cash flows
379 2010-10-17 03:18:18 <genjix> which is cool :)
380 2010-10-17 03:20:17 <lfm> I don't think its the lack of a mico payment system that has kept people from paying for things on the net (and bitcoins might prove it)
381 2010-10-17 03:20:39 <genjix> how comes?
382 2010-10-17 03:21:27 <smop> lots of people pay for things on the net
383 2010-10-17 03:21:36 <lfm> its just a threshold value that is not worth the bookeeping and grasping for $0.000001 just makes you look silly.
384 2010-10-17 03:22:13 <Kiba> there are serious structural deficency in our economy right now because of government regulations and all
385 2010-10-17 03:22:21 <Kiba> and the perchants for violent non-solutions
386 2010-10-17 03:22:22 <lfm> smop some people think we should pay the content creators for every web page we visit
387 2010-10-17 03:22:44 <genjix> really? i would click LIKE to pay 1 nano BTC for someones video
388 2010-10-17 03:23:03 <noagendamarket> what genjox says^
389 2010-10-17 03:23:22 <noagendamarket> ah keyboard fail
390 2010-10-17 03:23:37 <smop> yeah
391 2010-10-17 03:23:39 <lfm> so if you get a million hits you have "earned" $1? whats the point?
392 2010-10-17 03:24:03 <nanotube> noagendamarket: tab-complete fail :P
393 2010-10-17 03:24:08 <noagendamarket> lol
394 2010-10-17 03:24:37 <doublec> flattr's idea of donating a fixed amount per month and each 'like' is a portion of the total things you've liked for the month is interesting
395 2010-10-17 03:24:42 <nanotube> lfm: well, i'd even pay a centi-btc if i like someone's video.
396 2010-10-17 03:24:45 <lfm> or if its a nano btc you have earned maybe $0.10
397 2010-10-17 03:24:56 <nanotube> lfm: so if you have a million hits, you make like 10k usd
398 2010-10-17 03:25:07 <nanotube> er... 10k btc. :)
399 2010-10-17 03:25:10 <genjix> you underestimate how much that can help
400 2010-10-17 03:25:11 <doublec> I'm thinking of adding individual address to each video on tinyvid.tv so people can donate to individual videos
401 2010-10-17 03:25:30 <doublec> and have the original provider of the video provide their own address so they get it
402 2010-10-17 03:25:34 <genjix> so i used to be a professional poker player and am funding my studies through poker
403 2010-10-17 03:25:47 <doublec> genjix, have you seen the bitcoin poker website?
404 2010-10-17 03:25:47 <genjix> if you play play-money games, they are fucking shit
405 2010-10-17 03:25:56 <genjix> no one cares and doesnt play properly
406 2010-10-17 03:25:56 <nanotube> doublec: that'd be nice. especially if more people had btc. :)
407 2010-10-17 03:26:02 <genjix> doublec: where, plz link :)
408 2010-10-17 03:26:13 <genjix> at nl2, they play bad but at least are trying to win
409 2010-10-17 03:26:17 <doublec> genjix, http://bitco.in
410 2010-10-17 03:26:22 <genjix> $0.01/$0.02 (size of the blinds)
411 2010-10-17 03:26:23 <doublec> genjix, I too play online poker
412 2010-10-17 03:26:37 <genjix> ok so you know how as you go up the play becomes hard as nails
413 2010-10-17 03:26:41 <doublec> yep
414 2010-10-17 03:26:56 <genjix> i think even $10 would make people try to make really good content on the net
415 2010-10-17 03:27:15 <genjix> not because they need the money
416 2010-10-17 03:27:18 <doublec> there's a thread in the forums btw where people will do transfers to pokerstars in exchange for bitcoins
417 2010-10-17 03:27:23 <nanotube> doublec: that's some contractor firm... :P wasnn't it betco.in?
418 2010-10-17 03:27:34 <genjix> just, that it shows people value your content
419 2010-10-17 03:27:41 <genjix> doublec: oh thanks for that info
420 2010-10-17 03:27:59 <doublec> isn't that what I typed nanotube?
421 2010-10-17 03:28:19 <genjix> that site is wrong
422 2010-10-17 03:28:23 <nanotube> doublec: nope :P
423 2010-10-17 03:28:26 <doublec> https://betco.in/
424 2010-10-17 03:28:26 <genjix> oh thanks nano
425 2010-10-17 03:28:30 <nanotube> doublec: s/i/e/ :P
426 2010-10-17 03:28:34 <doublec> doh
427 2010-10-17 03:28:46 <nanotube> :)
428 2010-10-17 03:29:02 <lfm> https://betco.in/
429 2010-10-17 03:29:08 <doublec> unfortunately transferring between poker sites in the major sites 'links' your accounts. If one account commits some form of fraud (or transfers with anyone else who does) then the other is closed until the money is recovered.
430 2010-10-17 03:29:15 <doublec> so transferring with randoms is dangerous
431 2010-10-17 03:29:23 <genjix> cool im going to try this out :)
432 2010-10-17 03:31:24 <genjix> theres no games running :p
433 2010-10-17 03:31:44 <doublec> Yeah it's in testing I believe and not widely promoted
434 2010-10-17 03:31:50 <doublec> I'll play if you're keen
435 2010-10-17 03:32:54 <doublec> 100-200 no-limit's out of my league though :)
436 2010-10-17 03:33:07 <genjix> nah, i only have 0.25 BTC :p
437 2010-10-17 03:33:29 <genjix> wtf who gave me 3 BTC also :)
438 2010-10-17 03:33:45 <doublec> I sent 2 :)
439 2010-10-17 03:34:08 <genjix> oh thanks
440 2010-10-17 03:34:11 <doublec> this is what we do in bitcoin. trade coins between each other.
441 2010-10-17 03:34:25 <genjix> yep, i can already tell this is a nice community
442 2010-10-17 03:36:15 <nanotube> announcing #bitcoin-otc channel for OTC trading.
443 2010-10-17 03:36:22 <genjix> hopefully bitcoin will crush ads on the net
444 2010-10-17 03:36:41 <nanotube> (spurred by the recent OTC trade i did with Diablo-D3, with theymos serving as escrow. :) )
445 2010-10-17 03:36:58 <genjix> what's difference to #bitcoin-market ?
446 2010-10-17 03:37:10 <doublec> what does otc stand for?
447 2010-10-17 03:37:18 <nanotube> genjix: bitcoin-market is just a streaming quotes place
448 2010-10-17 03:37:23 <nanotube> otc == over the counter
449 2010-10-17 03:37:30 <nanotube> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the-counter_%28finance%29
450 2010-10-17 03:37:53 <nanotube> genjix: -otc is for directly-negotiated trading
451 2010-10-17 03:37:56 <doublec> I see, thanks
452 2010-10-17 03:38:01 <genjix> ok
453 2010-10-17 03:38:24 <nanotube> with the recent troubles on the existing exchanges... i figure it'd be nice to have a more organized place for OTC trading
454 2010-10-17 03:38:28 <Kiba> over the counter...
455 2010-10-17 03:38:48 <Kiba> forum members has garnered themsleves reputation..trust
456 2010-10-17 03:39:00 <nanotube> Kiba: right.
457 2010-10-17 03:39:23 <Kiba> scammers are unlikely to build reputations..hmm
458 2010-10-17 03:39:25 <nanotube> with the relatively small community here, otc trading should be doable
459 2010-10-17 03:39:43 <nanotube> and besides that... trusted members can serve as escrow, when 'new' people come in
460 2010-10-17 03:39:57 <nanotube> just like theymos just did a few hours ago :)
461 2010-10-17 03:41:30 <genjix> yep same as in poker community
462 2010-10-17 03:41:47 <genjix> you can learn several examples from them since they deal with virtual money too
463 2010-10-17 03:42:21 <nanotube> genjix: if you have any interesting insights from that, please feel free to share :)
464 2010-10-17 03:42:47 <genjix> not off the top of my head, but what you said about transfers... equally applies there
465 2010-10-17 03:42:56 <nanotube> theymos: re: Even if Bitcoin doesn't catch on, I'm glad to have experienced such a community. <-- ++ on that.
466 2010-10-17 03:43:03 <genjix> you do lots of transfers for small amounts, become trusted
467 2010-10-17 03:43:13 <genjix> help people out doing transfers for bigger amounts
468 2010-10-17 03:43:21 <nanotube> mmm
469 2010-10-17 03:43:22 <genjix> gain reputation
470 2010-10-17 03:44:01 <genjix> also peoples winnings are tracked by an external site, so you can see if someones a big winner before doing a risky transfer
471 2010-10-17 03:44:11 <Kiba> nobody formalize a reputation system yet..
472 2010-10-17 03:44:17 <genjix> you might be a bit more hesitant if they've been losing for 6 months
473 2010-10-17 03:44:27 <genjix> same with poker players... its informal but works well
474 2010-10-17 03:44:46 <nanotube> hm well... reputation systems is something we'd have to think about too
475 2010-10-17 03:44:50 <genjix> generally you hear if someone is a scammer and they get ostracised
476 2010-10-17 03:45:20 <nanotube> genjix: how do you deal with the problem of "scammer just goes and creates a new account" ?
477 2010-10-17 03:45:27 <doublec> I just stole someone's blinds at 0.01/0.02 - they were sitting in but obviously apparently not  intending to play since they didn't do anything after. oops.
478 2010-10-17 03:45:47 <genjix> nanotube: say i ask for $200 on full tilt poker for $200 to you on pokerstars
479 2010-10-17 03:46:00 <genjix> new forum poster X with 0 posts says i'll do it
480 2010-10-17 03:46:20 <FreeMoney> pfft, that was my blind
481 2010-10-17 03:46:21 <genjix> i say you transfer first then since i have 1000 posts and am well known in the community
482 2010-10-17 03:46:27 <doublec> sorry FreeMoney :)
483 2010-10-17 03:46:28 <genjix> he says no, im a bit suspicious
484 2010-10-17 03:46:38 <genjix> but against better judgement i decide to do it anyway
485 2010-10-17 03:46:49 <Diablo-D3> you know
486 2010-10-17 03:46:52 <FreeMoney> I looked at it when i heard the jingle, but you didn't play right away so i miniized and there was never another noise
487 2010-10-17 03:46:55 <Diablo-D3> a 5970 isnt so bad
488 2010-10-17 03:46:55 <genjix> so we exchange in $20 increments
489 2010-10-17 03:46:57 <Diablo-D3> its $600
490 2010-10-17 03:47:18 <Diablo-D3> vs ~$310 for a 5870
491 2010-10-17 03:47:22 <genjix> next time he wishes to do a transfer with someone else, he sends me a message asking for me to vouch for him
492 2010-10-17 03:47:33 <genjix> i say i did exchange with him for $20 increments and it went well
493 2010-10-17 03:47:34 <genjix> .etc
494 2010-10-17 03:47:38 <doublec> FreeMoney, I'm back again
495 2010-10-17 03:47:44 <genjix> http://www.liquidpoker.net/poker-forum/925799/exchange_$$.html
496 2010-10-17 03:47:45 <FreeMoney> i'm in
497 2010-10-17 03:47:46 <genjix> example
498 2010-10-17 03:49:02 <nanotube> genjix: ah, increments - good idea. so most you'd stand to lose is $20, rather than the whole 600
499 2010-10-17 03:49:04 <genjix> http://www.liquidpoker.net/poker-forum/925962/excange_$_anyone_.html
500 2010-10-17 03:49:14 <genjix> theres another example of unsucessful poster
501 2010-10-17 03:49:43 <genjix> scammer: http://www.liquidpoker.net/poker-forum/925863/swap_money.html
502 2010-10-17 03:50:07 <genjix> you check his blog, and you see his other post was a scam
503 2010-10-17 03:51:40 <Kiba> hmm
504 2010-10-17 03:51:45 <Kiba> Bitcoin Economic Journal
505 2010-10-17 03:52:09 <jrabbit> Sounds slightly less fun than the international journal for zizek studies.
506 2010-10-17 03:52:12 <Kiba> invite an economist to supervise papers and such
507 2010-10-17 03:54:06 <genjix> also might interest you, other things that happen are: buying a stake (number of hands played, % of action in tournament, fixed amount of % of winnings), prop-bets (like betting against person X playing Y amount of hands in a month- people make the bet to self motivate themselves to play) and selling shares (of a tournament to reduce variance)
508 2010-10-17 03:54:18 <Kiba> in a year or two, we'll be fools
509 2010-10-17 03:54:22 <Kiba> or incredibly rich?
510 2010-10-17 03:55:29 <genjix> heres an example of investment for sports, http://www.liquidpoker.net/poker-forum/925855/Selling....html
511 2010-10-17 03:56:33 <genjix> if you read that post it gives you an idea of how business is transacted, and how bitcoin might (possibly) function in the future if it takes off :)
512 2010-10-17 03:57:53 <FreeMoney> genjix: there is a game running now
513 2010-10-17 03:58:18 <genjix> cool :)
514 2010-10-17 03:58:38 <genjix> how do i get chips there?
515 2010-10-17 03:58:47 <FreeMoney> even if we end up rich we'll probably still feel like fools for not being richer
516 2010-10-17 03:58:59 <genjix> oh i see
517 2010-10-17 03:59:06 <doublec> when you signed up for an account you get an address to send too
518 2010-10-17 03:59:35 <genjix> yep
519 2010-10-17 03:59:36 <genjix> sent
520 2010-10-17 03:59:47 <FreeMoney> will have to wait 1 confirmation I think
521 2010-10-17 03:59:50 <FreeMoney> unless he changed it
522 2010-10-17 04:00:04 <FreeMoney> or was it 2?
523 2010-10-17 04:00:10 <doublec> I think it was 2
524 2010-10-17 04:01:29 <genjix> are they any of you?
525 2010-10-17 04:01:42 <doublec> natavla isme
526 2010-10-17 04:01:59 <genjix> cool, i love this bitcoin business
527 2010-10-17 04:02:10 <genjix> anarchism ftw
528 2010-10-17 04:02:10 <nanotube> genjix: :)
529 2010-10-17 04:02:41 <joe_1> freemoney: are you talking about a poker site?
530 2010-10-17 04:02:45 <FreeMoney> I am First
531 2010-10-17 04:02:58 <FreeMoney> yes we are playing at bitco.in
532 2010-10-17 04:03:00 <doublec> joe_1, yes
533 2010-10-17 04:03:22 <nanotube> joe_1: FreeMoney betco.in, not bitco.in. :P
534 2010-10-17 04:03:34 <joe_1> ok
535 2010-10-17 04:03:36 <FreeMoney> oh sorry, thanks
536 2010-10-17 04:03:39 <genjix> cmon, confirm... i wanna play :p
537 2010-10-17 04:04:28 <joe_1> what are the blinds
538 2010-10-17 04:04:41 <FreeMoney> we are playing .01/.02
539 2010-10-17 04:04:42 <doublec> there's  bunchj of different tables
540 2010-10-17 04:05:05 <joe_1> so max buyin is 4 btc?
541 2010-10-17 04:05:13 <doublec> 2btc
542 2010-10-17 04:05:13 <joe_1> or, i mean 2btc
543 2010-10-17 04:05:27 <FreeMoney> it's NL big blind is .02 buy in is 2
544 2010-10-17 04:05:35 <genjix> btw it only needs 1 confirm
545 2010-10-17 04:06:07 <FreeMoney> cool
546 2010-10-17 04:06:16 <joe_1> wow this is nice
547 2010-10-17 04:06:21 <genjix> how can i rebuy?
548 2010-10-17 04:06:22 <joe_1> chat is blank though
549 2010-10-17 04:06:33 <doublec> there should be a rebuy button top right when you drop down
550 2010-10-17 04:06:50 <doublec> next to 'sit out'
551 2010-10-17 04:07:09 <genjix> i see
552 2010-10-17 04:07:31 <doublec> the code is open source btw
553 2010-10-17 04:08:30 <genjix> yep theres a mistake
554 2010-10-17 04:08:45 <doublec> what happened?
555 2010-10-17 04:09:18 <genjix> how can joe call but it timebanks him?
556 2010-10-17 04:10:06 <genjix> why did it fold me?
557 2010-10-17 04:10:32 <doublec> whatever ituses to update the client is a little flaky at times
558 2010-10-17 04:11:04 <genjix> aha i see
559 2010-10-17 04:11:35 <theymos> nanotube: I found all of my concerns as a minarchist (age of majority, how to remedy broken contracts, slavery contracts, etc.) easily solved by polylegal anarcho-capitalism. How would your ideal system handle such controversial issues with irreconcilable positions?
560 2010-10-17 04:13:34 <jrabbit> most likely due to most of the proponets benefiting so much from the already existing capitalism.
561 2010-10-17 04:14:41 <nanotube> theymos: well, from a united-states-centric point of view - keep a govt at the federal level to do the minimum of required services, and let the states compete on what to do with irreconcilable positions
562 2010-10-17 04:14:58 <nanotube> so... it's essentially a 'poly-legal' structure
563 2010-10-17 04:15:03 <thrashaholic> i knew nanotube was a jeffersonian at heart o/
564 2010-10-17 04:15:08 <nanotube> heh
565 2010-10-17 04:15:38 <jrabbit> And how exactly does this position differ from what those in power wish?
566 2010-10-17 04:15:51 <theymos> I don't think a government is capable of limiting its own power.
567 2010-10-17 04:16:00 <jrabbit> Every step you take away from the ideology you walk towards violence and capital.
568 2010-10-17 04:16:27 <genjix> no capitalism
569 2010-10-17 04:17:27 <jrabbit> the ideolgoy itself they're starting from is flawwed but its not their fault, it has some very powerful people wishing it to be pushed.
570 2010-10-17 04:21:41 <nanotube> theymos: yes, that is a big problem... but people who cheat, steal, and kill are, i think, quite a problem as well. how do you deal with say, a bunch of would-be rapists, aggregating themselves into a mini-state where rape is legal?
571 2010-10-17 04:22:02 <nanotube> same thing with would-be thieves, killers, etc.?
572 2010-10-17 04:22:44 <nanotube> there seems to me a need for at least some basic laws that are common throughout.
573 2010-10-17 04:23:43 <nanotube> otherwise you might have your thief go out to loot, and as long as he makes it back to his 'home state of thieves' he'll be immune from consequences, since 'it's legal in my state'
574 2010-10-17 04:23:54 <doublec> genjix, http://github.com/hippich/Bitcoin-Poker-Room
575 2010-10-17 04:23:55 <jgarzik> US needs fewer feds and more inter-state competition, when it comes to laws
576 2010-10-17 04:24:02 <genjix> thanks double
577 2010-10-17 04:24:33 <theymos> nanotube: Reasonable people outnumber unreasonable, and will not allow such things to occur to them. If everyone in a society where murder is legal willingly went there, I don't see a problem. If these people try to outsource their murder, everyone will band together and destroy them.
578 2010-10-17 04:24:59 <nanotube> jgarzik: that's basically my position. competition between govts is a great way to curb govt. competition only exists when people can freely move between regimes, such as between states.
579 2010-10-17 04:25:45 <nanotube> theymos: so you foresee war between the 'guild of thieves' and bunch of neighboring states eh?
580 2010-10-17 04:26:03 <nanotube> just what we need, war.
581 2010-10-17 04:26:24 <thrashaholic> nanotube: imo that is the true intent of the "grand experiment"
582 2010-10-17 04:26:45 <theymos> nanotube: Everyone will try to avoid it, of course. No one likes war. But in any society, if a group of people are going on a killing spree, they need to be stopped.
583 2010-10-17 04:26:49 <nanotube> so at the end of the day, rather than having "a government" find a thief and bring them to justice, you have .... a bunch of vigilantes doing it?
584 2010-10-17 04:27:13 <jrabbit> theymos: so you want to resolve violence with organzed violence?
585 2010-10-17 04:27:16 <nanotube> thrashaholic: indeed... one that's been corrupted by the growth of the fed
586 2010-10-17 04:27:29 <jgarzik> a corporation-state would be an interesting experiment.  have a few countries compete for citizens.
587 2010-10-17 04:27:59 <nanotube> jgarzik: well, that's what was supposed to be happening between states...
588 2010-10-17 04:28:26 <thrashaholic> they already are Corporations with slogans and trademarks ;)
589 2010-10-17 04:28:40 <nanotube> heh
590 2010-10-17 04:28:46 <jgarzik> I was thinking, a corp-state would have leadership (and leadership changes) similar to today's corporations.  Citizens freely pick their benevolent dictator.
591 2010-10-17 04:28:59 <thrashaholic> board members
592 2010-10-17 04:29:34 <nanotube> jgarzik: mmm, in your analogy, what's the difference between employees and shareholders? arguably, employees have a lot more at stake in the firm, but do not have a voice in choosing leadership
593 2010-10-17 04:29:57 <nanotube> shareholders tend to be diversified, having little at stake in any one individual firm... but in the aggregate, get to choose the leadership
594 2010-10-17 04:30:06 <jgarzik> gov't workers == employees
595 2010-10-17 04:30:12 <theymos> jrabbit: Is it better to ignore the murderers? You've got to do something about them. In democracy, money is stolen from people and given to mercenaries (police) in order to kill them. In anarcho-capitalism, the affected people pay the mercenaries.
596 2010-10-17 04:30:47 <nanotube> theymos: but what if the guild of thieves accumulates more money to pay more mercenaries? and, being thieves... they just might?
597 2010-10-17 04:31:13 <theymos> nanotube: They can't get more money than the whole world.
598 2010-10-17 04:31:28 <nanotube> theymos: but they /can/ get more money than the neighboring states
599 2010-10-17 04:31:53 <nanotube> people half a world away aren't going to go fight a thief-state if it doesn't affect them. waste of resources
600 2010-10-17 04:32:01 <nanotube> only the neighboring states would have incentive
601 2010-10-17 04:33:12 <nanotube> theymos: at any rate - it may work, it may not... but before going for large wholesale changes like that... a lot of thought needs to be given on how to deal with "the undesirables".
602 2010-10-17 04:33:25 <nanotube> of course, it all works nice when everyone is a 'nice guy'
603 2010-10-17 04:33:51 <nanotube> it's the dealing with the crooks and killers where it gets tricky
604 2010-10-17 04:34:22 <theymos> What we need is some nice brainwashing technology to instill everyone with anarcho-capitalist values...
605 2010-10-17 04:34:47 <jrabbit> ;_;
606 2010-10-17 04:34:55 <nanotube> haha
607 2010-10-17 04:35:24 <genjix> i advocate just a seperate society for people who would like to live according to anarch values
608 2010-10-17 04:35:31 <nathan7> :o
609 2010-10-17 04:35:44 <genjix> their society would naturally be nicer and people would want to move there
610 2010-10-17 04:35:46 <jrabbit> genjix: I want to see the suffering.
611 2010-10-17 04:35:52 <genjix> society of scientists and artists
612 2010-10-17 04:36:04 <nanotube> genjix: how do you prevent the crooks from moving in?
613 2010-10-17 04:36:05 <Kiba> no, society of voluntaryists
614 2010-10-17 04:36:14 <genjix> obstracising
615 2010-10-17 04:36:19 <genjix> they'd be outnumbered
616 2010-10-17 04:36:22 <genjix> its how dubai works
617 2010-10-17 04:36:34 <jrabbit> Dubai works based on slave labor.
618 2010-10-17 04:36:41 <Kiba> genjix: I am not so optimstic to expect everyting to fall into place
619 2010-10-17 04:36:42 <genjix> yes it does
620 2010-10-17 04:36:46 <nanotube> theymos: in summary - the ideas are appealing, but i'm just not sure how it'd work out in practice, wrt the undesirables.
621 2010-10-17 04:36:48 <genjix> but for instance
622 2010-10-17 04:36:52 <Kiba> making sure that the system work right or won't spin out of control is hard work
623 2010-10-17 04:37:02 <genjix> wikipedia might not have taken off had it not been popularised on slashdot
624 2010-10-17 04:37:06 <Kiba> economic is easy to get wrong
625 2010-10-17 04:37:13 <Kiba> voluntary systems can fall apart for number of reason
626 2010-10-17 04:37:28 <Kiba> genjix: wikipedia is a beaucractic mess that somehow work enough
627 2010-10-17 04:37:54 <genjix> dubai, if you break their laws then you get shipped back home
628 2010-10-17 04:38:02 <genjix> i dont advocate their rules
629 2010-10-17 04:38:06 <genjix> but it is very safe there
630 2010-10-17 04:38:06 <Kiba> some wikipedian spend too much time wikilawyering
631 2010-10-17 04:38:19 <genjix> ok, but wikipedia does work nice still
632 2010-10-17 04:38:28 <genjix> they do need to reduce power tho, i agree
633 2010-10-17 04:38:53 <Kiba> maintaining an efficent and just voluntary order is hard work
634 2010-10-17 04:39:01 <Kiba> and require us to think outside of short term interest
635 2010-10-17 04:39:07 <genjix> same with this society- right minded people with correct political education can make it work
636 2010-10-17 04:39:10 <nanotube> indeed... which people are not too good, in the aggregate, at doing.
637 2010-10-17 04:39:16 <genjix> well squats and social centres work fine
638 2010-10-17 04:39:24 <nanotube> (i mean, think outside of short-term interest)
639 2010-10-17 04:39:26 <Kiba> nanotube: true.
640 2010-10-17 04:39:28 <genjix> we have lots of them in europe
641 2010-10-17 04:39:41 <genjix> maybe you're from usa and you never seen such a thing working
642 2010-10-17 04:40:00 <Kiba> the thing is
643 2010-10-17 04:40:06 <theymos> nanotube: I guess we'll have to wait until seasteading becomes possible and we can try both of our ideas.
644 2010-10-17 04:40:10 <Kiba> we shouldn't expect an informed voter in a democracy
645 2010-10-17 04:40:21 <Kiba> so we shouldn't expect wise people in a bitcoin economy
646 2010-10-17 04:40:30 <nanotube> theymos: indeed. i'm all for trying a bunch of things and letting 'natural selection' weed out the flaws.
647 2010-10-17 04:40:42 <Kiba> all what anybody can do now is study and specialize...and try not to get evil
648 2010-10-17 04:40:45 <jrabbit> yeah without a nice tract of land, the right pigmentation of skin, and the right religion...
649 2010-10-17 04:41:20 <nanotube> jrabbit: what was that in response to?
650 2010-10-17 04:41:27 <jrabbit> 6.011  < Kiba> we shouldn't expect an informed voter in a democracy
651 2010-10-17 04:41:45 <nathan7> :o
652 2010-10-17 04:41:51 <Kiba> jrabbit: impossiblity, I said.
653 2010-10-17 04:42:04 <Kiba> I should said.
654 2010-10-17 04:42:11 <genjix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squatting
655 2010-10-17 04:42:15 <genjix> works well
656 2010-10-17 04:42:16 <genjix> nuff said
657 2010-10-17 04:42:35 <nathan7> They banned it in the hollandland D:
658 2010-10-17 04:42:38 <Kiba> nobody know how to make ap encil
659 2010-10-17 04:42:43 <nathan7> Now all the hackerspaces are gone, I think
660 2010-10-17 04:42:56 <nanotube> jrabbit: mmm
661 2010-10-17 04:43:03 <jgarzik> nanotube: #bitcoin-otc is a nice idea
662 2010-10-17 04:43:19 <nanotube> jgarzik: glad you like. :)
663 2010-10-17 04:43:39 <genjix> nathan7: sucks to be you :(
664 2010-10-17 04:43:45 <Kiba> the core of the bitcoin economy is personal knowledge of a person's reputation...
665 2010-10-17 04:43:57 <genjix> i wrote a wikipedia article on it,
666 2010-10-17 04:43:58 <genjix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Squatting_Ban
667 2010-10-17 04:44:05 <genjix> plz keep it up to date with current events
668 2010-10-17 04:44:08 <nathan7> Where'd you live?
669 2010-10-17 04:44:20 <Kiba> formalized reputation system scale the economy
670 2010-10-17 04:44:53 <Kiba> by complementing the personal reputaiton network
671 2010-10-17 04:45:01 <genjix> i remember all the hackers in amsterdam :)
672 2010-10-17 04:45:04 <genjix> doing great work
673 2010-10-17 04:45:27 <Kiba> hackerspaces
674 2010-10-17 04:45:34 <Kiba> could be the focal point of the bitcoin economy
675 2010-10-17 04:46:19 <theymos> I like the FMS trust system (on Freenet), though people always complain that it's too complicated.
676 2010-10-17 04:47:44 <doublec> FMS trust does see to work quite well
677 2010-10-17 04:48:29 <genjix> freenet is slow and crappy
678 2010-10-17 04:48:55 <genjix> im all for a sneaker net, but it cant be 10x as slow as the net
679 2010-10-17 04:49:07 <nathan7> genjix: mhm
680 2010-10-17 04:49:17 <Kiba> http://fivegrinder.com/group/Bitcoin%20Mutual%20Aid%20Association
681 2010-10-17 04:49:20 <nanotube> genjix: i've heard it's gotten faster... though i can't say i've tried it in the past several years
682 2010-10-17 04:49:26 <Kiba> join the bitcoin mutual aid association!
683 2010-10-17 04:49:42 <theymos> Latency is a few seconds, but the download speed is actually quite good.
684 2010-10-17 04:49:43 <genjix> i tried it a few months ago
685 2010-10-17 04:50:29 <genjix> Kiba: is that like a bitcoin bank?
686 2010-10-17 04:50:44 <Kiba> genjix: no.
687 2010-10-17 04:51:01 <genjix> building society :p
688 2010-10-17 04:51:13 <Kiba> mutual aid societies
689 2010-10-17 04:51:17 <Kiba> like freemasons and stuff
690 2010-10-17 04:51:36 <genjix> ok
691 2010-10-17 04:51:43 <nathan7> so I get free candy?
692 2010-10-17 04:52:02 <Kiba> let just say these kind of societies were major big before the government kill them off
693 2010-10-17 04:52:38 <Kiba> they serve everyone from the poor to the rich...provide for many social functions...
694 2010-10-17 04:52:38 <nathan7> Why?
695 2010-10-17 04:52:42 <Kiba> help people in needs
696 2010-10-17 04:53:05 <Kiba> social security without the parasital nature of social security.
697 2010-10-17 04:53:24 <nathan7> I mean, the government killing them off.
698 2010-10-17 04:53:25 <Kiba> but currently, the association only offer one benefit: discounts for members from other members.
699 2010-10-17 04:53:45 <jgarzik> well, well, well... look what relevant Google Ad was just served up:
700 2010-10-17 04:53:46 <Kiba> nathan7: implemented social security
701 2010-10-17 04:53:49 <jgarzik> http://www.appro.com/product/hyperpower_intel_overview.asp
702 2010-10-17 04:53:53 <jgarzik> GPU computing cluster
703 2010-10-17 04:53:55 <nathan7> :o
704 2010-10-17 04:54:34 <thrashaholic> =D
705 2010-10-17 04:54:43 <Kiba> not that it matter anyway. social security is going to die.
706 2010-10-17 04:55:02 <Kiba> but these kind of insitutions might not emerge again since nobody remember them
707 2010-10-17 04:55:03 <genjix> kjdkjdfdf
708 2010-10-17 04:55:06 <Kiba> only in history books
709 2010-10-17 04:55:19 <nathan7> Kiba: Hi, mr Nobody
710 2010-10-17 04:56:28 <Kiba> I guess the Bitcoin Mutual Aid Association is going to end up as some kind of cooperative bank
711 2010-10-17 04:56:56 <jrabbit> I love how naive mutualism is the more I look into it
712 2010-10-17 04:57:08 <Kiba> mutualism?
713 2010-10-17 04:57:11 <Kiba> I don't study mutualism
714 2010-10-17 04:57:11 <nathan7> =)
715 2010-10-17 04:57:25 <jrabbit> its the concept involved in mutual aid
716 2010-10-17 04:57:49 <Kiba> the three things that an organization like mine needs to offer:
717 2010-10-17 04:57:53 <Kiba> 1. Material benefit.
718 2010-10-17 04:57:55 <Kiba> 2. Information.
719 2010-10-17 04:58:07 <Kiba> 3. Solidarity.
720 2010-10-17 04:58:19 <jgarzik> The Chinese and Hong Kong Triads have impressive mutual aid associations.
721 2010-10-17 04:59:40 <Kiba> seem to be a type of criminal organization
722 2010-10-17 04:59:58 <jrabbit> naive in the sense they approach the problem with a "bandaid"
723 2010-10-17 05:00:40 <Kiba> so you're syaing that mutual aid societies are bandaid?
724 2010-10-17 05:01:19 <nathan7> bandaid?
725 2010-10-17 05:01:21 <Kiba> I don't believe that everything should be worker owned
726 2010-10-17 05:01:23 <nathan7> bullshit.
727 2010-10-17 05:01:28 <nathan7> DUCT TAPE.
728 2010-10-17 05:02:13 <jrabbit> nathan7: they attempt to make basic capital easier to aquire with low fee loans to people not in the ruling class.
729 2010-10-17 05:02:25 <nathan7> Mhm
730 2010-10-17 05:02:48 <Kiba> mutual aid societies serve all classes of societies
731 2010-10-17 05:02:56 <Kiba> some are for the rich, the poor, for certain X of a culture..
732 2010-10-17 05:03:05 <jrabbit> which doesn't exactly solve the problem of capital accumulation and the inherent hiearchy of capitalism
733 2010-10-17 05:03:38 <Kiba> jrabbit: and I am not trying to solve inheritent hiearchy or whatever
734 2010-10-17 05:04:59 <Kiba> I am just trying to solve problems like people having no "safety net" but without producing adverse results that are assocatied with statist regulation
735 2010-10-17 05:05:10 <Kiba> but I have no interest in trying to destroy hiearchy
736 2010-10-17 05:05:16 <Kiba> hiearchy are not inheriently evil
737 2010-10-17 05:05:34 <Kiba> nor is capital accumlation
738 2010-10-17 05:06:29 <Kiba> We are organized to help each other, promote friendship amongst bitcoiners, and the like, as well provide certain benefits and services. We also donate 50% of our saving to projects that promote the bitcoin economy. The fee is 5 bitcoins every 2 weeks, totaling to 10 bitcoins per month.
739 2010-10-17 05:06:47 <Kiba> that is the purpose of the Bitcoin Mutual Aid Association
740 2010-10-17 05:08:25 <theymos> I don't want to give a discount to anyone, and a "mutual aid association" should not be donating money to charities -- it should be kept as a legal defense fund.
741 2010-10-17 05:09:43 <Kiba> 50% of the money is saved automatically
742 2010-10-17 05:09:57 <Kiba> theymos: what you called charity, I called it promotion.
743 2010-10-17 05:12:11 <Kiba> beside, fraternal organizations in the past set up orphanage and charities anyway
744 2010-10-17 05:15:51 <genjix> hey how come there isnt a bitcoin wikipedia article?
745 2010-10-17 05:16:11 <genjix> nvm, someone told me
746 2010-10-17 05:16:36 <genjix> was the text from the page taken down, saved?
747 2010-10-17 05:17:41 <theymos> It wasn't a very good article. Probably better to start from scratch.
748 2010-10-17 05:18:25 <genjix> ok
749 2010-10-17 05:18:50 <doublec> you'd need to find some mention of bitcoin in an article so it could be 'notable'
750 2010-10-17 05:19:03 <echelon> theymos, did you add rnam4cxam62nkcyf.onion?
751 2010-10-17 05:19:09 <echelon> it never worked for me
752 2010-10-17 05:19:57 <theymos> echelon: No. Bitlex added it.
753 2010-10-17 05:20:18 <genjix> who is the king of bitcoinia?
754 2010-10-17 05:20:35 <genjix> The United Meritocracy of Bitcoinia
755 2010-10-17 05:20:39 <echelon> oh ok
756 2010-10-17 05:22:12 <theymos> echelon: I think we should remove .onions if Tor gives the "hidden service unavailable" error for it, since that means it's not found in the directory and the server hasn't been up for a while. Does it give that error?
757 2010-10-17 05:22:22 <Netsniper> whatever you guys come up with
758 2010-10-17 05:22:31 <Netsniper> i want to be one of the guys with the guns
759 2010-10-17 05:23:38 <echelon> i just try to open a connection on 8333 with socat
760 2010-10-17 05:24:44 <theymos> The error would be in Tor's log.
761 2010-10-17 05:25:19 <echelon> ohh
762 2010-10-17 05:26:21 <echelon> Tried for 120 seconds to get a connection to [scrubbed]:8333. Giving up. (waiting for rendezvous desc)
763 2010-10-17 05:27:35 <theymos> I think that also indicates that it's been down for a while, but let's wait a few days.
764 2010-10-17 05:27:48 <echelon> kk
765 2010-10-17 05:28:02 <genjix> https://n-1.cc/pg/groups/44414/esperanto/
766 2010-10-17 05:28:06 <genjix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto
767 2010-10-17 05:28:08 <genjix> for joe
768 2010-10-17 05:32:57 <genjix> theymos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Message_From_Xenu/Bitcoin
769 2010-10-17 05:33:02 <genjix> how is that inadequate?
770 2010-10-17 05:33:08 <genjix> seems quite nice at first glance
771 2010-10-17 05:35:46 <nathan7> Xenu?
772 2010-10-17 05:35:54 <nathan7> SCIENTOLOGY?
773 2010-10-17 05:36:19 <theymos> It's been updated since I last looked at it (before it was deleted), but "technical basis" still has innaccuracies.
774 2010-10-17 05:36:56 <genjix> those deletionfascists need to learn their place
775 2010-10-17 05:37:31 <genjix> maybe you could fix it? i looked up bitcoin before but didnt see wiki article and nearly abandoned this
776 2010-10-17 05:37:43 <genjix> its only by chance friend recommendation i came back to this
777 2010-10-17 05:38:23 <genjix> ill restore the article later
778 2010-10-17 05:39:51 <theymos> The aren't enough third-party sources, are there?
779 2010-10-17 05:40:36 <theymos> Actually I see a few good ones in the references. I guess it's ready to be recreated.
780 2010-10-17 05:41:54 <genjix> cool
781 2010-10-17 05:42:23 <genjix> anyone want to join our bitcoin poker game? :)
782 2010-10-17 05:49:43 <genjix> who's the world richest bitcoin owner?
783 2010-10-17 05:50:04 <genjix> the who's who of bitcoinia
784 2010-10-17 05:53:02 <echelon> the guy at bitcoin2cash.com has a reserve of 9400 something bitcoins, not sure if that's much
785 2010-10-17 05:53:29 <thrashaholic> ArtForzZy is.
786 2010-10-17 05:53:36 <echelon> compared to others
787 2010-10-17 05:53:41 <thrashaholic> compared to everyone
788 2010-10-17 05:54:18 <echelon> what kind of cpu's/gpu's does he have at his disposal? :S
789 2010-10-17 05:54:19 <thrashaholic> i guess he's selling some though
790 2010-10-17 05:54:41 <thrashaholic> echelon: no idea
791 2010-10-17 05:55:24 <ArtForzZy> holding ~30k, sold ~110k, 5x5770, 2x5870, 2x5970
792 2010-10-17 05:55:50 <echelon> -_-
793 2010-10-17 05:55:53 <doublec> genjix, http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2010/10/10/a-short-introduction-to-bitcoin.html
794 2010-10-17 05:56:06 <echelon> ArtForzZy, you can be your own bank
795 2010-10-17 05:58:12 <genjix> what happens to lost bitcoin money?
796 2010-10-17 05:58:22 <genjix> like someone has 5 btc and loses their wallet#
797 2010-10-17 05:58:25 <genjix> is it gone forever
798 2010-10-17 05:58:27 <theymos> The main problem with the Wikipedia article is that it strongly implies that bitcoins actually exist as pieces of data that you can point to, when they are in reality just a sequence of transactions interpreted by the nodes. Also, it is not strictly correct to say that block hashes must start with a "certain amount of leading zero bits" -- the target is a long number that hashes must be below.
799 2010-10-17 05:58:32 <ArtForzZy> gone forever
800 2010-10-17 05:59:02 <theymos> Knightmb has 150,000+ BTC.
801 2010-10-17 06:03:51 <genjix> incredible
802 2010-10-17 06:04:44 <genjix> ArtForzZy: so doesn't that deflate the economy?
803 2010-10-17 06:05:19 <ArtForzZy> over the really long term, yes
804 2010-10-17 06:05:26 <theymos> Knightmb is working with people with money to create some sort of prepaid Bitcoin card (or something like that).
805 2010-10-17 06:08:49 <nathan7> I was thinking About making physical bitcoins
806 2010-10-17 06:08:51 <nathan7> *about
807 2010-10-17 06:09:08 <genjix> what for?
808 2010-10-17 06:09:22 <genjix> no use
809 2010-10-17 06:09:35 <joe_1> advertising
810 2010-10-17 06:09:56 <joe_1> bitcoin notes
811 2010-10-17 06:10:30 <genjix> might have some value for micronations and imaginary countries who want a virtual currency with real value
812 2010-10-17 06:15:54 <doublec> it'd be useful to be able to give someone a 'bitcoin banknote' that they can scan when at their PC and get the coins
813 2010-10-17 06:16:38 <doublec> unfortuntately they'd have to actually trust you that the note was worth X coins
814 2010-10-17 06:17:55 <nathan7> True
815 2010-10-17 06:20:16 <theymos> You can create a special transaction that requires a password as well as a signature. Put the signature on the front of the BitCard for verification, and the password under a scratch-off.
816 2010-10-17 06:20:27 <nathan7> hmm..
817 2010-10-17 06:20:38 <nathan7> I have an idea..
818 2010-10-17 06:20:55 <nathan7> but I'd have to get a PCB made
819 2010-10-17 06:21:10 <nathan7> and I can't really afford that atm
820 2010-10-17 06:28:47 <nathan7> but it'd be like a mobile bitcoin card
821 2010-10-17 06:42:21 <jgarzik> theymos: that's interesting
822 2010-10-17 06:45:47 <echelon> what happens to transactions where the recipient's address is entered incorrectly?
823 2010-10-17 06:46:15 <theymos> There's a check code in the address to prevent that.
824 2010-10-17 06:46:45 <echelon> what does it check.. the length?
825 2010-10-17 06:47:22 <echelon> or does the address itself contain some data?
826 2010-10-17 06:47:22 <theymos> It's hash of the contents.
827 2010-10-17 06:47:32 <echelon> hmm kk
828 2010-10-17 06:48:46 <theymos> You can turn arbitrary data into a valid BC address here: http://theymos.ath.cx:64150/q/hashtoaddress . Any 20 bytes will turn into a valid address.
829 2010-10-17 06:49:14 <nathan7> :o
830 2010-10-17 06:49:25 <nathan7> nice
831 2010-10-17 06:50:49 <echelon> :)
832 2010-10-17 06:55:37 <joe_1> how does the client create addresses versus how does your site create the addresses?
833 2010-10-17 06:56:20 <theymos> joe_1: I'm just converting between hex and base58. Bitcoin creates real public/private ECDSA keys.
834 2010-10-17 06:57:03 <theymos> The address is a hash of the public key.
835 2010-10-17 06:57:35 <theymos> Plus a version number and the check hash.
836 2010-10-17 07:00:34 <joe_1> so the address wont actually be valid?
837 2010-10-17 07:01:27 <joe_1> it will be the right format, but it might not be valid?
838 2010-10-17 07:02:07 <theymos> It's in valid format, and Bitcoin will accept it. You can throw away coins by sending to 1111111111111111111114oLvT2, for example.
839 2010-10-17 07:02:25 <nathan7> D:
840 2010-10-17 07:02:49 <nathan7> And if you're lucky, you get some address where everyone threw his coins away
841 2010-10-17 07:03:19 <joe_1> ohh
842 2010-10-17 07:03:59 <theymos> If you reverse the conversion on that throwaway address, you can see that I just used all zeroes: http://theymos.ath.cx:64150/q/addresstohash/1111111111111111111114oLvT2
843 2010-10-17 07:04:00 <joe_1> but if i get an address people threw their coins into, i still couldn't do anything cause i really need the private key?
844 2010-10-17 07:04:35 <theymos> Right. I think nathan7 was talking about real address generation, though.
845 2010-10-17 07:10:50 <joe_1> i c
846 2010-10-17 07:44:10 <genjix> is there a total user metric for bitcoin?
847 2010-10-17 07:44:15 <genjix> (number of total users)
848 2010-10-17 07:45:48 <nathan7> Hmm, not really measurable
849 2010-10-17 07:46:21 <genjix> ok
850 2010-10-17 08:27:01 <genjix> what is the argument against that when bitcoin reaches 21mil BTC and begins to deflate that the economy will become fucked because people will hoard instead of trading?
851 2010-10-17 08:29:02 <Diablo-D3> well, I dont see anyone hoarding USD
852 2010-10-17 08:29:55 <genjix> over time the usd inflates though
853 2010-10-17 08:30:16 <Diablo-D3> not for the past year, however
854 2010-10-17 08:31:40 <joe_1> i dont think it would deflate for a long period of time
855 2010-10-17 08:31:53 <genjix> but when it will
856 2010-10-17 08:32:29 <joe_1> if everyone knows it's going to be worth 150% of its value in a year, then the value will go up by 150% now, not in a year. so it's a contradiction that you could ever expect deflation
857 2010-10-17 08:32:44 <Diablo-D3> but its only worth that if people use it
858 2010-10-17 08:34:39 <genjix> I mean because when your currency is depreciating in value, you need to invest it
859 2010-10-17 08:34:47 <genjix> when it appreciates in value, you save it
860 2010-10-17 08:34:57 <Diablo-D3> but you cant invest btc
861 2010-10-17 08:35:06 <genjix> why not?
862 2010-10-17 08:35:12 <joe_1> no, you save it if you expect it to appreciate in value
863 2010-10-17 08:35:35 <Diablo-D3> genjix: invest it in what?
864 2010-10-17 08:35:44 <Diablo-D3> I didnt know they made federal treasury bonds in btc
865 2010-10-17 08:35:51 <genjix> banks who lend it out to others and give you interest
866 2010-10-17 08:36:09 <Diablo-D3> but there are no btc banks
867 2010-10-17 08:36:25 <genjix> there isn't now
868 2010-10-17 08:36:31 <Diablo-D3> nor should there be
869 2010-10-17 08:37:24 <OneFixt> there will always be someone willing to spend BTC *now*, which will always set a market price
870 2010-10-17 08:37:43 <OneFixt> perhaps there could be a futures market in BTC as well
871 2010-10-17 08:38:07 <OneFixt> and if you expect depreciation, you can use the futures to bet on that while still using your coins
872 2010-10-17 08:39:34 <OneFixt> or appreciation
873 2010-10-17 08:46:51 <joe_1> but the cost of a futures contract on one bitcoin might be 1 BTC, so all your money would then be tied up in the futures market.
874 2010-10-17 08:47:31 <genjix> what do you all think about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_monetary_system ?
875 2010-10-17 08:53:31 <joe_1> is that the ripplepay network
876 2010-10-17 08:54:24 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: ripplpay runs ripple
877 2010-10-17 08:56:14 <joe_1> it's a credit network that allowed you to pay anyone else in the network anonymously because your payment established a chain of credit positions that went from you to the recipient
878 2010-10-17 08:58:28 <tcatm> seems more complicated than bitcoin
879 2010-10-17 08:59:07 <Diablo-D3> its not more "complicated"
880 2010-10-17 08:59:17 <Diablo-D3> its just the full solution
881 2010-10-17 09:09:44 <genjix> so it's better than bitcoin, or?
882 2010-10-17 09:10:14 <Diablo-D3> genjix: no
883 2010-10-17 09:12:50 <genjix> so what do you mean by "the full solution"?
884 2010-10-17 09:12:50 <noagendamarket> what about loom? https://loom.cc/
885 2010-10-17 09:13:28 <genjix> noagendamarket: website looks a bit stark :p
886 2010-10-17 09:13:58 <OneFixt> joe_1: futures contracts are highly leveraged so they can be used for hedging, they wouldn't cost 1 to 1
887 2010-10-17 09:14:21 <noagendamarket> genjix its not spammy lol
888 2010-10-17 09:15:46 <genjix> noagendamarket: yep, but i meant that the site is a low on details...
889 2010-10-17 09:15:52 <genjix> Diablo-D3: so what do you mean by "the full solution"?
890 2010-10-17 09:16:04 <Diablo-D3> genjix: it has half of a paypal-like portal going on
891 2010-10-17 09:16:38 <genjix> i see, so why is bitcoin better?
892 2010-10-17 09:16:57 <Diablo-D3> you're asking the wrong question
893 2010-10-17 09:17:15 <genjix> oh
894 2010-10-17 09:17:17 <Diablo-D3> you should be asking why isnt ripple using bitcoin underneath for the transaction protocol
895 2010-10-17 09:17:21 <Diablo-D3> because it could
896 2010-10-17 09:17:27 <genjix> aha i see, what it is now
897 2010-10-17 09:17:42 <Diablo-D3> they'd just need to form their own network to do denominations in USD directly
898 2010-10-17 09:17:42 <genjix> thanks
899 2010-10-17 09:17:48 <noagendamarket> genjix https://loom.cc/faq/
900 2010-10-17 09:18:15 <Diablo-D3> theres also no reason why, say, bitcoin markets cant <->ripple usd
901 2010-10-17 09:18:59 <noagendamarket> wasnt the ripplepay system stopped in developmen t?
902 2010-10-17 09:19:50 <genjix> noagendamarket: looks interesting...
903 2010-10-17 09:20:25 <noagendamarket> genjix they have atm cards lol
904 2010-10-17 09:20:37 <genjix> still, i prefer money. batering with assets... idk
905 2010-10-17 09:21:05 <noagendamarket> https://secure.goldnow.st/index.php
906 2010-10-17 09:21:13 <noagendamarket> it seems linked to that
907 2010-10-17 09:21:50 <genjix> everyone in bitcoin keeps talking about gold :p
908 2010-10-17 09:22:14 <Diablo-D3> gold is a 6000 year old monetary standard
909 2010-10-17 09:22:20 <Diablo-D3> nothing has managed to beat it yet
910 2010-10-17 09:22:48 <genjix> but why does everyone keep talking about it?
911 2010-10-17 09:24:27 <Diablo-D3> because its a system built on trust
912 2010-10-17 09:25:31 <genjix> ok
913 2010-10-17 09:48:15 <OneFixt> gold's a system based on proof-of-work (aka mining)
914 2010-10-17 09:48:26 <OneFixt> very similar to bitcoin in that regard
915 2010-10-17 09:48:47 <OneFixt> and someday, the supply of gold will stop increasing
916 2010-10-17 09:49:06 <OneFixt> while some of it (though not much) might be lost through industrial use
917 2010-10-17 09:50:01 <Diablo-D3> OneFixt: btw, no
918 2010-10-17 09:50:13 <Diablo-D3> monetary gold increases very slowly
919 2010-10-17 09:50:28 <Diablo-D3> its something like less than 1% of gold mined becomes money
920 2010-10-17 09:50:33 <Diablo-D3> the rest is all industrial use
921 2010-10-17 09:50:39 <OneFixt> sorry, i was referring to the metal itself
922 2010-10-17 09:50:49 <Diablo-D3> gold itself has no direct value
923 2010-10-17 09:51:11 <Diablo-D3> its when you mint coins out of it, then it becomes money
924 2010-10-17 09:51:26 <Diablo-D3> and on the whole, its a slow constant process
925 2010-10-17 09:51:35 <OneFixt> well, i would say that if you want to sell gold to a buyer, they won't care what shape it's in
926 2010-10-17 09:51:46 <OneFixt> industrial gold is worth the same per ounce as a gold coin
927 2010-10-17 09:52:40 <Diablo-D3> not true
928 2010-10-17 09:52:49 <OneFixt> can you give me an example?
929 2010-10-17 09:52:56 <Diablo-D3> most people buying monetary gold want it actually minted
930 2010-10-17 09:53:19 <Diablo-D3> otherwise there is no assurance of the purity, or even the content of the gold
931 2010-10-17 09:53:36 <OneFixt> yes, regular people will pay extra for an assurance
932 2010-10-17 09:54:48 <Diablo-D3> no we wont
933 2010-10-17 09:54:52 <Diablo-D3> I wont pay over spot price.
934 2010-10-17 09:55:12 <OneFixt> regular people don't go on IRC to talk about BTC either =)
935 2010-10-17 09:55:18 <OneFixt> i wasn't referring to the people here
936 2010-10-17 09:56:19 <OneFixt> but if you look at gold as a whole, work goes into mining and refining it, and that can't be faked
937 2010-10-17 09:56:35 <OneFixt> so that's why i compared it to bitcoin
938 2010-10-17 09:56:45 <Diablo-D3> oh, it CAN be faked
939 2010-10-17 09:56:46 <Diablo-D3> easily
940 2010-10-17 09:57:06 <OneFixt> i don't mean fooling people
941 2010-10-17 09:57:11 <OneFixt> social engineering etc.
942 2010-10-17 09:57:13 <Diablo-D3> then thats no fun.
943 2010-10-17 09:57:15 <OneFixt> i mean faking actually physical gold
944 2010-10-17 09:57:28 <OneFixt> people are always the weakest link
945 2010-10-17 10:01:33 <Diablo-D3> yes, but this is why we audit vaults
946 2010-10-17 10:02:40 <OneFixt> and why banks used to pool and rush their gold supplies from one vault to the next just in time for the auditors to arrive
947 2010-10-17 10:03:09 <Diablo-D3> yes, and this is why you don't depend on a single bank
948 2010-10-17 10:03:17 <Diablo-D3> and this is also why you audit concurrently and randomyl
949 2010-10-17 10:03:27 <OneFixt> i agree
950 2010-10-17 10:04:08 <OneFixt> of course disallowing fractional-reserve banking would be a better solution
951 2010-10-17 10:04:50 <Diablo-D3> fractional reserve isnt the big problem
952 2010-10-17 10:05:11 <Diablo-D3> banks also own assets which back their currency reserve.
953 2010-10-17 10:05:20 <OneFixt> yes, specifically that
954 2010-10-17 10:05:28 <OneFixt> 10-fold inflation of any assets that they own
955 2010-10-17 10:05:29 <Diablo-D3> this is the true reason why the mortgage blow up was a problem
956 2010-10-17 10:05:32 <OneFixt> which are debt-based to begin with
957 2010-10-17 10:05:48 <Diablo-D3> the US made a run on all the major banks via the back door.
958 2010-10-17 10:06:17 <OneFixt> courtesy of the federal reserve
959 2010-10-17 10:06:23 <OneFixt> making sure that no single bank can be blamed
960 2010-10-17 10:06:36 <OneFixt> at the expense of bringing the entire system down together
961 2010-10-17 10:07:31 <Diablo-D3> well, yes and no
962 2010-10-17 10:07:39 <Diablo-D3> FDIC is a very important part of the banking system
963 2010-10-17 10:07:41 <OneFixt> and FDIC
964 2010-10-17 10:07:51 <OneFixt> absolutely
965 2010-10-17 10:07:57 <Diablo-D3> without it, people would be hoarding cash in their mattresses
966 2010-10-17 10:08:01 <Diablo-D3> which is even worse
967 2010-10-17 10:08:17 <Netsniper> the original recipients of newly printed dollars are the biggest beneficiaries
968 2010-10-17 10:08:20 <OneFixt> well, the real problem is moral hazard
969 2010-10-17 10:08:32 <Netsniper> and theser is no problem with hoarding
970 2010-10-17 10:08:34 <OneFixt> what is the incentive for banks to be prudent?
971 2010-10-17 10:09:02 <Diablo-D3> OneFixt: there used to be one
972 2010-10-17 10:09:10 <Diablo-D3> but Congress removed it
973 2010-10-17 10:09:12 <OneFixt> FDIC requires every bank to pitch in, regardless of the bank's business practices
974 2010-10-17 10:09:28 <OneFixt> so it encourages everyone to be reckless
975 2010-10-17 10:09:53 <Diablo-D3> gutting the Glass Steagall act was the big problem
976 2010-10-17 10:09:57 <genjix> isnt this guy selling BTC below market price? 25btc for $1
977 2010-10-17 10:10:03 <OneFixt> where?
978 2010-10-17 10:10:06 <OneFixt> i'll take it
979 2010-10-17 10:10:09 <genjix> from http://bitcoinwatch.com/
980 2010-10-17 10:10:12 <Diablo-D3> genjix: ~0.08
981 2010-10-17 10:10:14 <genjix> http://www.bitcoin2cash.com/
982 2010-10-17 10:10:32 <genjix> this is the forum post http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1303.0