1 2010-10-19 01:20:07 <genjix> hey
  2 2010-10-19 01:20:21 <nanotube> o/
  3 2010-10-19 01:28:05 <lfm> ;nr
  4 2010-10-19 01:28:11 <bitbot> lfm: CurrentBlockCount( 86,151 blocks ) CurrentDifficulty( 1,378.0286071800 ) NextDifficultyAt( 86,688 blocks ) NextDifficultyIn( 537 blocks )
  5 2010-10-19 01:28:18 <lfm> ;estimate
  6 2010-10-19 01:28:25 <bitbot> lfm: LastDiff(6d 21:53:14 ago)  ExpBlocks(995)  ActualBlocks(1479)  TrgNewDiffDate(2010/10/26 05:35:05 GMT)  EstNewDiffDate(2010/10/21 15:42:10 GMT)  EstNewDiff(2048.34604022)
  7 2010-10-19 01:35:56 <nanotube> whoa, check out that new estimate
  8 2010-10-19 01:36:09 <nanotube> guess the foss gpu clients are finally making an impact
  9 2010-10-19 03:13:25 <nanotube> what's the process to add an item to bitcoin.org/trade ?
 10 2010-10-19 03:14:09 <noagendamarket> nanotube ask sirius
 11 2010-10-19 03:14:24 <nanotube> Sirius: --^ :)
 12 2010-10-19 03:16:01 <noagendamarket> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=30.0  nanotube post here on the forum
 13 2010-10-19 03:16:04 <bitbot> We accept Bitcoins
 14 2010-10-19 03:16:31 <Kiba> We accept Bitcoins is such a catchy call...
 15 2010-10-19 03:16:35 <Kiba> Bitcoin GALORE!
 16 2010-10-19 03:20:52 <nanotube> heh yea
 17 2010-10-19 03:20:56 <nanotube> noagendamarket: posted thanks :)
 18 2010-10-19 03:21:10 <Kiba> when there is a breakout
 19 2010-10-19 03:21:17 <Kiba> time to do a BITCOIN GALORE!
 20 2010-10-19 03:21:56 <noagendamarket> wat are you smoking kiba?lol
 21 2010-10-19 03:22:25 <Kiba> noagendamarket: hmm
 22 2010-10-19 03:22:27 <Kiba> I am onto something
 23 2010-10-19 03:28:02 <Kiba> aceat64: hey
 24 2010-10-19 03:39:50 <Diablo-D3> ;calculator
 25 2010-10-19 03:39:51 <bitbot> Diablo-D3: http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php
 26 2010-10-19 04:31:08 <Keefe> nanotube: http://i53.tinypic.com/o76ag3.png
 27 2010-10-19 04:31:17 <Keefe> chart of total bitcoin network processing power
 28 2010-10-19 04:31:25 <Keefe> since about May 29
 29 2010-10-19 04:31:37 <Keefe> 1 bar = 48 blocks
 30 2010-10-19 04:31:50 <Keefe> vertical scale is logarythmic, in mhps
 31 2010-10-19 04:33:21 <Keefe> power has been doubling approx every 3 weeks since /.
 32 2010-10-19 04:37:23 <Keefe> if foss gpu clients are dramatically increasing total power, it's only making up for possible slower growth in numbers of generators
 33 2010-10-19 04:58:04 <codehotter> so bitcoin inflation rate is predetermined for the whole network?
 34 2010-10-19 04:58:38 <codehotter> wait, there will never be more than a certain max amount of bitcoin
 35 2010-10-19 04:58:56 <codehotter> that seems like an undesirable property
 36 2010-10-19 05:20:56 <bd__> codehotter: why?
 37 2010-10-19 05:24:18 <codehotter> cause it will cause deflation and eventual lack of liquidity
 38 2010-10-19 05:32:24 <joe_1> imagine that bitcion were in a deflationary period right now, of something like -10%.
 39 2010-10-19 05:33:00 <joe_1> and let's say right now 1 BTC = 0.10 USD
 40 2010-10-19 05:33:20 <joe_1> in 1 year, then, we expect 1 BTC = 0.11 USD
 41 2010-10-19 05:34:41 <joe_1> the market would immediately raise the price of 1 BTC to 0.11 USD today
 42 2010-10-19 05:35:15 <ne0futur> 08:58) < codehotte> wait, there will never be more than a certain max amount of bitcoin
 43 2010-10-19 05:35:19 <ne0futur> (08:58) < codehotte> that seems like an undesirable property
 44 2010-10-19 05:35:21 <ne0futur> I also cant understand this
 45 2010-10-19 05:35:33 <ne0futur> 21 million coins for 5 billion humans
 46 2010-10-19 05:35:50 <joe_1> therefore deflation above cash rate can never be expected
 47 2010-10-19 05:35:52 <ne0futur> will be difficult to use bitcoins when a beer will cost 0.0000001 bc
 48 2010-10-19 05:37:07 <genjix> ne0futur: just call them 1 nano bc
 49 2010-10-19 05:37:10 <genjix> 1 nbc
 50 2010-10-19 05:37:29 <ne0futur> 21 million bc is 0.042 coin/human
 51 2010-10-19 05:39:29 <codehotter> does the system support transfers of arbitrarily small amounts?
 52 2010-10-19 05:40:41 <joe_1> no, but i believe it goes down to several powers of 10
 53 2010-10-19 05:40:55 <joe_1> like 7 or 10 powers of 10
 54 2010-10-19 05:41:09 <codehotter> that seems small enough
 55 2010-10-19 05:41:57 <codehotter> if one bc is worth a million dollars you can still buy a beer for 3microbc
 56 2010-10-19 05:43:53 <codehotter> still psychologically I would not want my salary drastically shrinking every month
 57 2010-10-19 05:44:06 <codehotter> even if I could buy more for it
 58 2010-10-19 05:44:53 <codehotter> that psychological factor is one reason we have inflation. Humans are not flexible with cost for certain things as economically they perhaps shold be
 59 2010-10-19 05:45:02 <FreeMoney> that's pretty weak man
 60 2010-10-19 05:45:33 <FreeMoney> it's absurd to say human nature can only be comfortable with falling prices
 61 2010-10-19 05:45:54 <FreeMoney> er rising prices
 62 2010-10-19 05:46:15 <FreeMoney> do you see lots of people freaked out about cheaper better computers every year?
 63 2010-10-19 05:46:39 <joe_1> i would argue again that deflation will not occur on a long term basis
 64 2010-10-19 05:47:19 <FreeMoney> even if the people who are here now were all (I'm not so there's one) broken to need to be bled by inflation that would only be a fact about current humans
 65 2010-10-19 05:47:44 <FreeMoney> if people want a shit currency they'll be able to find one I promise
 66 2010-10-19 05:47:57 <FreeMoney> you don't need to force on on them at the point of a gun if it's what they want
 67 2010-10-19 05:55:59 <codehotter> I am definitely not saying people are averse to falling prices. But I'd be uncomfortable with having a smaller salary every month.
 68 2010-10-19 05:57:02 <codehotter> joe_1: if the wealth in society increases but the money upply remains the same, prices will drop.
 69 2010-10-19 05:57:33 <FreeMoney> maybe you could become more productive every month if youwant more real wealth every month
 70 2010-10-19 05:58:49 <codehotter> if the currency is very deflationary, I can work my ass off and still get reduction in my salary every month
 71 2010-10-19 05:59:48 <joe_1> codehotter: that is true if you assume the wealth in society increases.
 72 2010-10-19 06:03:40 <FreeMoney> regardless of what ends up happening to the nominal amount people will get over it since it absolutely doesn't matter
 73 2010-10-19 06:03:51 <joe_1> your paycheck should stay the same though, assuming your work benefits society more in keeping with the premise that the cumulative wealth of society is increasing.
 74 2010-10-19 06:04:06 <FreeMoney> do you feel way better when you convert your paycheck to Yen because you get so many more of them?
 75 2010-10-19 06:06:17 <genjix> yeah because it means i live in japan
 76 2010-10-19 06:06:22 <genjix> and japan is fucking cool
 77 2010-10-19 06:08:40 <FreeMoney> hi gen
 78 2010-10-19 06:09:37 <FreeMoney> you get a ton of coins yet so you can come play at Thirrd with us?
 79 2010-10-19 06:10:09 <genjix> i am writing a poker client for bitcoin
 80 2010-10-19 06:12:01 <joe_1> genjix is it open or closed source
 81 2010-10-19 06:12:16 <genjix> open obv :p i never write closed source
 82 2010-10-19 06:12:59 <joe_1> is it centralized or decentralized
 83 2010-10-19 06:14:31 <genjix> roadmap: centralised (multiple servers), semi-centralised player hosted, peer2peer
 84 2010-10-19 06:15:11 <joe_1> yea i had some notes on a multi server poker client i was going to write, then i abandoned the idea
 85 2010-10-19 06:16:06 <codehotter> genjix: eh:P. It does not necessarily have to use bitcoin. In fact I am massively in favour of using accepted currency for that idea.
 86 2010-10-19 06:16:21 <genjix> codehotter: why?
 87 2010-10-19 06:16:32 <genjix> normal currency is retarded
 88 2010-10-19 06:16:46 <codehotter> enforcing bitcoin will limit us to fringe. I intended to make it pretty big. Agree on your last point
 89 2010-10-19 06:17:06 <joe_1> the reason you cant write a poker client with real currency is because of laws
 90 2010-10-19 06:17:13 <genjix> exactly
 91 2010-10-19 06:17:21 <genjix> codehotter: did you write that web client
 92 2010-10-19 06:19:44 <codehotter> joe_1 it's perfectly legal to write a poker client. so long as you don't use it to engage in illegal gambling. also: playing poker on bitcoin is just as illegal as playing on full tit poker. No more no less. What currency does not change anything
 93 2010-10-19 06:20:12 <genjix> yeah but they cant do shit
 94 2010-10-19 06:20:58 <codehotter> in any case I think it would be a very bad idea to enforce bitcoin as currency on our poker network
 95 2010-10-19 06:21:31 <genjix> codehotter: did you write the web client?
 96 2010-10-19 06:21:52 <joe_1> ok, how exactly would the poker network be set up organizationally
 97 2010-10-19 06:21:59 <codehotter> what web client
 98 2010-10-19 06:22:12 <genjix> oh nvm, i thought you wrote something
 99 2010-10-19 06:25:23 <joe_1> codehotter: what is the poker network?
100 2010-10-19 06:26:50 <codehotter> joe_1 do you know xmpp?
101 2010-10-19 06:27:15 <joe_1> no
102 2010-10-19 06:28:48 <codehotter> ok you know email. When I send an email as a user codehotter@freecult.org to joe_1@example.com
103 2010-10-19 06:29:28 <codehotter> I send it to my server, freecult.org, and my server sends it to example.com, which finally passes it on to you
104 2010-10-19 06:30:19 <codehotter> xmpp is that system extended for instant messaging. I can host a chatroom that we both can join even though we are on different servers.
105 2010-10-19 06:30:52 <joe_1> if i have yahoo, yahoo will take the email, tell your server it was received successfully, then throw it away before i ever see it. but i get your point any way
106 2010-10-19 06:31:00 <codehotter> I want to make something like that for poker, so that anyone can make a server and join the network.
107 2010-10-19 06:31:18 <genjix> codehotter: whats wrong with bitcoin?
108 2010-10-19 06:31:52 <codehotter> one radical idea at a time. We will not have a large userbase if we enforce bitcoin
109 2010-10-19 06:32:56 <codehotter> let's start with widely accepted currency. We can add bitcoin as a possible currency, so long as it is an option and not enforced nor the default
110 2010-10-19 06:32:58 <joe_1> ok-- the problem i have with your system is this: how will i pay you if i lose to you?
111 2010-10-19 06:33:20 <codehotter> joe_1: that is the biggest challenge, one we think we can solve.
112 2010-10-19 06:33:52 <doublec> who is we?
113 2010-10-19 06:35:08 <codehotter> the people interested in this project
114 2010-10-19 06:35:29 <codehotter> I am not speaking for #bitcoin sorry if I gave that impression
115 2010-10-19 06:35:42 <codehotter> whole thing is offtopic anyway
116 2010-10-19 06:35:56 <doublec> oh right, I thought this was some bitcoin thing
117 2010-10-19 06:36:18 <doublec> it seemed odd that bitcoin users didn't want to have bitcoin accepted
118 2010-10-19 06:39:36 <codehotter> heh
119 2010-10-19 06:39:51 <codehotter> well technically the network should allow any currency
120 2010-10-19 06:40:14 <codehotter> anyway: deflation is bad.
121 2010-10-19 06:40:30 <genjix> i read somewhere that bitcoin isnt subject to legal issues as its technically not a currency
122 2010-10-19 06:40:42 <genjix> can anyone confirm this
123 2010-10-19 06:41:05 <genjix> codehotter: also its not like the law can seize your funds :D
124 2010-10-19 06:41:34 <genjix> worst they can do is seize your servers
125 2010-10-19 06:41:46 <genjix> then you tell them to fuck off and send players back their cash
126 2010-10-19 06:42:31 <joe_1> but can you post bail using bitcoins
127 2010-10-19 06:42:44 <joe_1> yes
128 2010-10-19 06:42:54 <joe_1> the commissioner has a bitcoin address on file
129 2010-10-19 06:44:59 <doublec> has anyone elses betco.in balance got larger all of a sudden?
130 2010-10-19 06:46:13 <doublec> my balance seems to have gained 20 bitcoins without me doing anything
131 2010-10-19 06:47:47 <genjix> doublec: check MyAccount not bitcoins sent
132 2010-10-19 06:48:22 <doublec> I'm looking at 'You Balance' under 'My Account'
133 2010-10-19 06:48:36 <doublec> odd. maybe I played in my sleep.
134 2010-10-19 06:48:46 <genjix> damn, shoulda kept my money there then :p
135 2010-10-19 06:48:58 <genjix> would be closer to reach that 1k i wanna get to
136 2010-10-19 06:49:15 <doublec> it also says "you sent so far 40.00" under deposit
137 2010-10-19 06:49:20 <doublec> pretty sure I've only ever sent 20
138 2010-10-19 06:49:26 <FreeMoney> :doublec: hippich said he was going to give bonuses to the people who tested for him
139 2010-10-19 06:49:35 <doublec> FreeMoney, oh, nice!
140 2010-10-19 06:49:35 <genjix> ooohh nice
141 2010-10-19 06:49:49 <FreeMoney> I didn't know if I got any because I didn't know my balance
142 2010-10-19 06:49:58 <genjix> 0.00 :(
143 2010-10-19 06:50:28 <joe_1> ok how bad should i feel for withdrawing 10 bitcoins over and over again
144 2010-10-19 06:50:48 <doublec> especially if it was a 'double your balance' type of deal
145 2010-10-19 06:51:19 <genjix> joe_1: yep same :)
146 2010-10-19 06:51:29 <genjix> i like to withdraw to my bitcoin account
147 2010-10-19 06:51:44 <genjix> and then orgasm over the having 15 bc
148 2010-10-19 06:52:02 <doublec> hehe
149 2010-10-19 06:52:16 <genjix> "this is virtual money made out of nothing"
150 2010-10-19 06:54:06 <doublec> so if the poker room was hosted behind i2p or a tor hidden service, and everyone used bitcoins, does that make it pretty much untraceable?
151 2010-10-19 06:55:27 <genjix> yep
152 2010-10-19 06:55:43 <genjix> but then how do you trust this anonymous service?
153 2010-10-19 06:56:01 <doublec> build up trust over time
154 2010-10-19 06:56:16 <doublec> don't keep my balance on it - transfer in and out as needed
155 2010-10-19 06:56:39 <doublec> same way as I trust ftp or stars
156 2010-10-19 06:56:41 <genjix> cool :)
157 2010-10-19 06:56:56 <doublec> or cereus ;)
158 2010-10-19 06:57:40 <joe_1> who runs betcoin
159 2010-10-19 06:59:27 <doublec> the person who posted this thread: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=840.0
160 2010-10-19 07:37:05 <Diablo-D3> http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/19/amd-radeon-hd-6870-and-hd-6850-officially-pictured-coming-this/
161 2010-10-19 07:37:11 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: did anyone expect these to look new/
162 2010-10-19 09:00:17 <soma> genjix: any chance there will be tourney sit&go tables at betco.in?
163 2010-10-19 09:00:36 <genjix> soma: i dont own betco.in
164 2010-10-19 09:00:51 <soma> ah ok, then i misinterpreted that
165 2010-10-19 09:09:49 <FreeMoney> soma: where did you go? want to play?
166 2010-10-19 09:12:14 <soma> you were the other player there? ;)
167 2010-10-19 09:19:12 <soma> will take a bit until my transfer is confirmed
168 2010-10-19 09:21:52 <sneak> hi guys
169 2010-10-19 09:22:42 <FreeMoney> I'm still here
170 2010-10-19 09:23:10 <FreeMoney> if you already sent it then it will only take 1 confirm
171 2010-10-19 10:19:08 <sneak> hi
172 2010-10-19 10:19:29 <sneak> i've a question
173 2010-10-19 10:19:38 <sneak> every n blocks, the 'target' is changed, yes?
174 2010-10-19 10:20:16 <sneak> what's to stop someone from setting it excessively low if they win the race on that block, and preventing any future blocks?  is that a clientside check?
175 2010-10-19 10:20:27 <sneak> that it must match the locally-computed target to be a valid block?
176 2010-10-19 10:36:13 <UukGoblin> I'd believe it's verified, and if it's outside of bounds, it should be rejected
177 2010-10-19 10:36:51 <UukGoblin> every client has at least a rough idea of what time it is, and how long ago was the previous difficulty-setting block generated, so everyone can do the maths
178 2010-10-19 10:47:49 <bd_> Received blocks can't be more than two hours in the future
179 2010-10-19 10:48:10 <bd_> Other than that, there's a limit that the target can't change more than 4x per adjustment
180 2010-10-19 10:50:48 <UukGoblin> surely if the whole network agrees new difficulty should be 2500 and a client sets it to 2000, its block should get rejected?
181 2010-10-19 10:50:54 <ArtForz> yep
182 2010-10-19 10:52:03 <ArtForz> every client computes the target for the current 2016 block segment and if a new block has a different target it gets rejected
183 2010-10-19 10:54:31 <sneak> so in theory if someone wrote a bitcoin protocol client that got more adoption than the current one
184 2010-10-19 10:54:45 <sneak> that was backdoored to allow for certain types of changes in blocks it accepts
185 2010-10-19 10:54:56 <sneak> the network could in theory be DoSed?
186 2010-10-19 10:55:01 <ArtForz> not really the network
187 2010-10-19 10:55:28 <ArtForz> block chain for clients using that version and reference clients would start to differ
188 2010-10-19 10:55:31 <UukGoblin> it'd split the network in two
189 2010-10-19 10:55:35 <ArtForz> yep
190 2010-10-19 10:55:45 <UukGoblin> and no-one would want to use the 'better' client anymore
191 2010-10-19 10:55:54 <sneak> UukGoblin: well, if it was more widely adopted
192 2010-10-19 10:56:00 <sneak> then nobody would want to use the older one :)
193 2010-10-19 10:56:05 <bonsaikitten> hmm, there are some funny impersonation attacks
194 2010-10-19 10:56:06 <sneak> as those would start showing "wrong" things
195 2010-10-19 10:56:13 <UukGoblin> it'd turn out that it's buggy and would either have to be fixed or people would lose the incentive to use it
196 2010-10-19 10:56:47 <sneak> i am trying to think of how an attacker with great resources (e.g. enough to hire a world-class development team and make great and shiny versions for all major platforms) could subvert the network
197 2010-10-19 10:56:54 <UukGoblin> sneak, to the contrary, old one would continue to work reasonably whereas the new one would never generate a block because difficulty would be set so high
198 2010-10-19 10:57:07 <ArtForz> well, people would figure out which of the clients is "right" according to specs and cry foul on the other one
199 2010-10-19 10:57:19 <sneak> UukGoblin: or too low :)
200 2010-10-19 10:57:36 <sneak> or otherwise allow certain people to grant themselves more coins in a new block (or accept a block like that)
201 2010-10-19 10:57:46 <UukGoblin> it'd be seen by the whole network
202 2010-10-19 10:57:50 <sneak> well yes
203 2010-10-19 10:58:00 <ArtForz> examining the block data and checking for "weirdness" isn't too hard with for example gavinadresens bitcointools
204 2010-10-19 10:58:06 <sneak> yeah
205 2010-10-19 10:58:12 <sneak> that's not what i'm saying
206 2010-10-19 10:58:20 <sneak> if the network had sufficient momentum with an alternate client
207 2010-10-19 10:58:30 <sneak> one that is less strict about checks
208 2010-10-19 10:58:38 <sneak> then it would be posssible to subvert, at least within that installed base
209 2010-10-19 10:58:38 <UukGoblin> someone would attack it
210 2010-10-19 10:58:44 <UukGoblin> yes
211 2010-10-19 10:58:49 <UukGoblin> of course
212 2010-10-19 10:58:54 <UukGoblin> but that's kinda pointless
213 2010-10-19 10:58:58 <sneak> not really
214 2010-10-19 10:58:59 <ArtForz> as soon as that alternate client would accept "unusual" transactions/blocks people would drop it like a hot potato
215 2010-10-19 10:59:07 <sneak> ArtForz: i don't think that's true.
216 2010-10-19 10:59:23 <sneak> depends on how many had it installed
217 2010-10-19 10:59:36 <sneak> compare/contrast something like vuze
218 2010-10-19 10:59:45 <ArtForz> installed user base != importance on the network
219 2010-10-19 10:59:54 <UukGoblin> sneak, if someone had that many resources, she could basically break the whole network by outpacing all nodes
220 2010-10-19 11:00:13 <UukGoblin> but even then, it'd probably be more profitable for her to just use that power to generate new blocks
221 2010-10-19 11:00:16 <sneak> UukGoblin: that doesn't "break" the network
222 2010-10-19 11:00:24 <UukGoblin> it could
223 2010-10-19 11:00:29 <sneak> that just gives coins to the attacker
224 2010-10-19 11:00:36 <sneak> what if they don't want coins, but instead want to disrupt the network?
225 2010-10-19 11:00:42 <sneak> e.g. nsa
226 2010-10-19 11:00:46 <UukGoblin> it could be used to create alternative chains that don't include certain transactions and allow double spending etc
227 2010-10-19 11:00:55 <UukGoblin> then they can
228 2010-10-19 11:00:59 <ArtForz> erm, disrupting the network in it's current state is trivial
229 2010-10-19 11:01:05 <UukGoblin> if they have more processing power than the network
230 2010-10-19 11:01:27 <UukGoblin> yup, I could disrupt the whole network if you gave me enough money ;-]
231 2010-10-19 11:01:49 <UukGoblin> not that much, in range of tens of thousands of $
232 2010-10-19 11:02:01 <UukGoblin> petty cash for any reasonable government
233 2010-10-19 11:02:06 <sneak> just need lots of sha1, no?
234 2010-10-19 11:02:10 <UukGoblin> sha256
235 2010-10-19 11:02:14 <ArtForz> 0 money needed (well, about 10 BTC...)
236 2010-10-19 11:02:27 <sneak> ArtForz: ?
237 2010-10-19 11:02:45 <ArtForz> split em into 1000 0.01 transactions and keep sending those to your own addresses
238 2010-10-19 11:02:48 <UukGoblin> yeah ArtForz could probably do it in a whim
239 2010-10-19 11:03:16 <sneak> is there a maximal number of transactions allowed in a block?
240 2010-10-19 11:03:18 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, the merkle tree will merge them
241 2010-10-19 11:03:36 <ArtForz> nope, it wont
242 2010-10-19 11:03:47 <UukGoblin> no, but there's a charge for transactions that go into a block that already has a lot of transactions
243 2010-10-19 11:03:48 <ArtForz> the idea is to use up all "free" space in every block
244 2010-10-19 11:03:55 <ArtForz> = every legit transaction suddenly requires a fee
245 2010-10-19 11:06:29 <UukGoblin> of 0.01
246 2010-10-19 11:06:46 <UukGoblin> not that bad a price for keeping the network together
247 2010-10-19 11:07:04 <ArtForz> depends on hib full the block already is and the data size of the transaction
248 2010-10-19 11:07:09 <UukGoblin> having more hash/sec than the whole network is more dangerous imho
249 2010-10-19 11:07:24 <ArtForz> yeah, but that actually requires some money
250 2010-10-19 11:07:58 <UukGoblin> government has plenty of these
251 2010-10-19 11:08:09 <UukGoblin> and if it's Zimbabwe, they can always just print more ;-)
252 2010-10-19 11:08:14 <ArtForz> or you could just flood the network to hell with millions of microcent transactions
253 2010-10-19 11:08:46 <ArtForz> they wont get into a block as they dont have enough fees, but clients will happily broadcast em
254 2010-10-19 11:12:11 <UukGoblin> huh
255 2010-10-19 11:12:15 <UukGoblin> yeah, that's nasty
256 2010-10-19 11:12:36 <ArtForz> oh, and as a bonus they will cache em in memory#
257 2010-10-19 11:13:46 <ArtForz> ~ 200 bytes per transaction * x M transactions = oops
258 2010-10-19 11:14:05 <sneak> ArtForz: is there a plan to not accept transactions on the wire that wouldn't be accepted in a block?
259 2010-10-19 11:14:14 <sneak> why wouldn't they be checked in both places?
260 2010-10-19 11:14:21 <UukGoblin> that'd kinda break the idea
261 2010-10-19 11:14:34 <UukGoblin> because you might not accept it in the block, but some other client would
262 2010-10-19 11:15:00 <ArtForz> yep
263 2010-10-19 11:15:11 <sneak> well when someone implements ArtForz's attack, it will have to get fixed in some way
264 2010-10-19 11:15:34 <UukGoblin> I guess limiting the number of relayed transactions per whatever (or a bandwidth cap, or something like that)
265 2010-10-19 11:15:57 <sneak> such a ddos would still shut down the network
266 2010-10-19 11:16:04 <UukGoblin> yup
267 2010-10-19 11:16:09 <sneak> you'd just have to do it from a bunch of diff clients
268 2010-10-19 11:16:10 <sneak> not one
269 2010-10-19 11:16:14 <sneak> but same attack really
270 2010-10-19 11:16:46 <ArtForz> yeah, protecting against DDoS is hard in a broadcast network :/
271 2010-10-19 11:16:52 <sneak> as gnutella learned.
272 2010-10-19 11:16:59 <sneak> how does the bittorrent dht do it?
273 2010-10-19 11:17:25 <ArtForz> dht is afair pull based, not broadcast
274 2010-10-19 11:17:30 <sneak> hrm, yeah
275 2010-10-19 11:17:43 <sneak> my centos build/specfile/srpm/etc is almost done
276 2010-10-19 11:17:58 <sneak> i got it building ok but it crashes when i start generation
277 2010-10-19 11:18:35 <UukGoblin> gdb backtrace plz! ;-]
278 2010-10-19 11:18:44 <bonsaikitten> sybil attacks
279 2010-10-19 11:18:48 <sneak> i think i'm talking to the system openssl instead of the build one
280 2010-10-19 11:18:54 <sneak> rebuilding now
281 2010-10-19 11:18:58 <bonsaikitten> as long as you can generate signatures(!) fast enough you can do some pretty funky things
282 2010-10-19 11:19:07 <sneak> bonsaikitten: like what
283 2010-10-19 11:19:17 <bonsaikitten> sneak: like pretending to be 10k clients
284 2010-10-19 11:19:24 <bonsaikitten> from one single machine
285 2010-10-19 11:21:30 <ArtForz> that reminds me, I wanted to check how hard it would be to implement EC multiplication in OpenCL
286 2010-10-19 11:21:57 <ArtForz> no real attack, just would make generating vanity addresses a lot faster :P
287 2010-10-19 11:22:13 <Diablo-D3> EC?\n26080
288 2010-10-19 11:22:31 <Diablo-D3> ahh, heh
289 2010-10-19 11:23:01 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: well, even if you cant run the shit in parallel
290 2010-10-19 11:23:07 <Diablo-D3> you can just run guesses in parallel
291 2010-10-19 11:23:08 <sneak> i wonder if the cost-per-khash on EC2 is cheaper than the coin-per-khash average converted to USD
292 2010-10-19 11:23:14 <Diablo-D3> just like the sha256 shit
293 2010-10-19 11:23:21 <Diablo-D3> sneak: _no_
294 2010-10-19 11:23:24 <Diablo-D3> ec2 is the worst.
295 2010-10-19 11:23:33 <ArtForz> Diablo-D3: that'd be the idea
296 2010-10-19 11:23:33 <sneak> i will do the math momentarily
297 2010-10-19 11:23:36 <sneak> and i will let you know
298 2010-10-19 11:23:48 <Diablo-D3> sneak: when nenolod tried it last, the best was rapidxen and rackspace cloud
299 2010-10-19 11:23:55 <ArtForz> afair for ECC priv_key = random 256 bit int, pub_key = priv_key * generator, addr = base56(ripemd160(pub_key))
300 2010-10-19 11:23:55 <sneak> also it will be a fun excuse to spin up ~20 EC2 instances for a half hour
301 2010-10-19 11:23:57 <Diablo-D3> and they _were_ profitable, I dunno about now
302 2010-10-19 11:24:06 <Diablo-D3> sneak: but ec2 was the worst of what he tried
303 2010-10-19 11:24:10 <ArtForz> I very much doubt it
304 2010-10-19 11:24:32 <sneak> a block yields 50 coins or ca. $5, yes?
305 2010-10-19 11:24:36 <ArtForz> yes
306 2010-10-19 11:25:03 <ArtForz> and a block currently needs 1378 * 2**32 hashes on avg to find
307 2010-10-19 11:25:07 <Diablo-D3> "CPSC and the company are aware of 19 incidents of lacerations to boys' genital area. One of the incidents required medical attention."
308 2010-10-19 11:25:13 <Diablo-D3> http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11012.html
309 2010-10-19 11:25:14 <Diablo-D3> what.
310 2010-10-19 11:25:25 <Diablo-D3> sneak: its more like 0.08 per coin
311 2010-10-19 11:25:34 <sneak> Diablo-D3: "ca." means "circa"
312 2010-10-19 11:25:52 <ArtForz> so... about 6Thashes for 50 BTC
313 2010-10-19 11:25:52 <sneak> and from all transaction data available to me, it would appear that 9c or more is the going rate.
314 2010-10-19 11:27:38 <sneak> how many USD are in Mt Gox?  is that data public?
315 2010-10-19 11:28:23 <ArtForz> assuming you have a decent CPU capable of 10Mhash/s thats ... about 166 hours
316 2010-10-19 11:32:26 <ArtForz> hrrrm... either my math is off or CPU mining is still profitable if you only have to pay for power...
317 2010-10-19 11:35:30 <ArtForz> well, not very profitable, and the way difficulty is rising probably not for much longer...
318 2010-10-19 11:35:49 <sneak> i am going to spin up a small farm of AMIs and see what the real-world cost per hash is
319 2010-10-19 11:35:52 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: use the calculator?
320 2010-10-19 11:36:59 <sneak> even if it's not profitable, it's a good way to buy coins
321 2010-10-19 11:37:01 <ArtForz> Diablo:D3, yeah, and then guess added power for mostly idle vs. 100% CPU and $/kWh
322 2010-10-19 11:41:36 <ArtForz> assuming difficulty 1378, $0.08/BTC, 10Mh/s, +100W and $0.10/kWh one cpu would make a proft of ~ $0.34/day
323 2010-10-19 11:41:48 <bonsaikitten> per instance?
324 2010-10-19 11:42:06 <ArtForz> no, that is for the case of "I already have a few 100 servers sitting mostly idle"
325 2010-10-19 11:42:53 <bonsaikitten> ah. fun.
326 2010-10-19 11:47:08 <sneak> #0  CallCPUID (in=<value optimized out>, aret=@0x4607e46c, cret=@0x49656e69) at main.cpp:2798
327 2010-10-19 11:47:16 <sneak> any guesses why tha'td make my bitcoind segfault?
328 2010-10-19 11:48:36 <Diablo-D3> whats your cpu?
329 2010-10-19 11:48:41 <Diablo-D3> or is this on a vps?
330 2010-10-19 11:48:52 <sneak> it's hypervised, yes
331 2010-10-19 11:48:57 <sneak> it's the dom0 though
332 2010-10-19 11:49:31 <Diablo-D3> shouldnt be an issue.
333 2010-10-19 11:51:24 <sneak> it wasn't crashing when i wasn't statically linking
334 2010-10-19 11:51:26 <sneak> only now
335 2010-10-19 11:51:30 <UukGoblin> sneak, recompile with -O0 -ggdb
336 2010-10-19 11:51:38 <sneak> roger that
337 2010-10-19 11:51:52 <UukGoblin> (is the usual thing I do whenever I see 'value optimized out' in gdb)
338 2010-10-19 11:52:12 <UukGoblin> (some other ppl might have better advice though)
339 2010-10-19 12:21:42 <sneak> well would you look at that
340 2010-10-19 12:21:46 <sneak> my centos build works
341 2010-10-19 12:27:40 <sneak> it claims to be doing 2.3M/sec
342 2010-10-19 13:15:16 <MacRohard> i wonder if it would be possible to setup a company that can just deposit wire transfers into a bitcoin account
343 2010-10-19 13:15:32 <MacRohard> couldn't you just add "for further deposit too <hashcode>" to the text of the message?
344 2010-10-19 13:15:42 <MacRohard> could have something automatically parse that out and perform the action
345 2010-10-19 13:17:09 <sneak> the problem is obtaining the coins in the first place.
346 2010-10-19 13:17:17 <MacRohard> not really
347 2010-10-19 13:17:52 <MacRohard> could always refuse the transaction if you can't find enough coins
348 2010-10-19 13:18:23 <MacRohard> it would be kindof risky for the sender since they wouldn't know how many coins they'd get
349 2010-10-19 13:18:40 <MacRohard> given the potential for exchange rate instability in such a small market
350 2010-10-19 13:29:52 <nanotube> MacRohard: so essentially, you're looking for an 'automated' way to buy btc?
351 2010-10-19 13:30:10 <MacRohard> nanotube, well i'm just thinkign how to make it as easy as possible
352 2010-10-19 13:38:40 <nanotube> mm
353 2010-10-19 16:02:09 <LobsterMan> hehe my old box getting 1000khash/s just generated a block
354 2010-10-19 16:03:33 <jackmcbarn> 1000 is bad? my fastest box only gets 2000 at its best
355 2010-10-19 16:03:47 <LobsterMan> yeah 1000 is pretty bad
356 2010-10-19 16:04:02 <LobsterMan> people and their cuda miners are getting like 300,000khash/s :\n26182
357 2010-10-19 16:04:27 <jackmcbarn> 300,000!?
358 2010-10-19 16:04:49 <LobsterMan> yep
359 2010-10-19 16:05:45 <ArtForz> lol
360 2010-10-19 16:06:05 <LobsterMan> i really wish someone would release a public binary for windows
361 2010-10-19 16:06:13 <LobsterMan> cause i am n00b and can't get shit to compile
362 2010-10-19 16:06:28 <ArtForz> 300Mhash/s = about 3x GTX480 or 4x GTX460
363 2010-10-19 16:06:32 <Kiba> LobsterMan: the solution is to use archlinux
364 2010-10-19 16:06:52 <LobsterMan> Keefe alleges he gets 300mhash in one box with one card
365 2010-10-19 16:07:05 <LobsterMan> and i do not want to use linux just for bitcoin :P
366 2010-10-19 16:07:25 <ArtForz> not using CUDA
367 2010-10-19 16:07:39 <LobsterMan> i was under the impression he was
368 2010-10-19 16:07:45 <ArtForz> 300MHash/s = 1x HD5870
369 2010-10-19 16:07:51 <LobsterMan> hmph
370 2010-10-19 16:08:52 <ArtForz> nvidia flat out sucks for integer work
371 2010-10-19 16:13:59 <gavinandresen> Satoshi just committed svn r168: Gavin's TEST network as -testnet switch, misc fixes
372 2010-10-19 16:21:12 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: happy happy... :)
373 2010-10-19 16:21:24 <jgarzik> once less patch to carry
374 2010-10-19 16:24:44 <nanotube> jgarzik: how goes it on style-correcting your listtransactions patch? :)
375 2010-10-19 16:28:17 <lfm> ;rn
376 2010-10-19 16:29:29 <theymos> Why is nBits included in generation scriptSigs when it's already in the block header? It was briefly removed, but put back in the latest SVN (main.cpp:2995).
377 2010-10-19 16:31:44 <jgarzik> -        Sleep(50);
378 2010-10-19 16:34:01 <ArtForz> theymos: no clue
379 2010-10-19 16:34:18 <theymos> Maybe putting it back in was a mistake.
380 2010-10-19 16:34:31 <ArtForz> it isn't really used by anything and doesn't even provide entropy
381 2010-10-19 16:48:50 <sandos> is wxwidgets 2.9 required for building?
382 2010-10-19 16:51:12 <theymos> sandos: It is for the GUI version.
383 2010-10-19 16:51:23 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: "A -testnet bitcoin listens for connections on ports 8333/8332, just like regular bitcoin, so you cannot run both -testnet and regular bitcoin at the same time on one machine."
384 2010-10-19 16:51:30 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: that is a bit strange, and inconvenient
385 2010-10-19 16:51:54 <jgarzik> seems like a breaking change for the testnet as a whole, too
386 2010-10-19 16:52:01 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  I sent Satoshi a -port=  patch, with a "pretty please?"
387 2010-10-19 16:52:16 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: not a breaking change for the testnet, it'll connect to arbitrary ports just fine.
388 2010-10-19 16:52:22 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ok, good
389 2010-10-19 17:09:40 <sandos> ok, any easier way than sudo checkinstall to get wxwidgets on ubuntu maverick, anyone? I need to manually create a lot of directories in /usr/local/.. for some reason
390 2010-10-19 17:15:27 <theymos> Compile it to a prefix in your home directory.
391 2010-10-19 17:20:22 <jgarzik> As an experiment, I'm selling bitcoins for PPEUR (paypal euros), see http://bitcoin-otc.com/vieworderbook.php
392 2010-10-19 17:20:53 <jgarzik> req. a good reputation here, or on forums, to [hopefully] avoid chargebacks.
393 2010-10-19 17:21:02 <jgarzik> US citizens can convert USD->EUR on PP's site.
394 2010-10-19 17:23:01 <caution> can I run the linux version from only the command line?
395 2010-10-19 17:23:24 <jgarzik> caution: yes.  'bitcoin' is GUI, 'bitcoind' is headless server/CLI version.
396 2010-10-19 17:23:37 <caution> thanks
397 2010-10-19 17:23:39 <theymos> The GUI can run on Linux.
398 2010-10-19 17:25:38 <xelister> theymos: limited to recent distros  with wx 2.8
399 2010-10-19 17:25:57 <theymos> xelister: You can compile 2.9 on anything...
400 2010-10-19 17:26:12 <xelister> perhaps but not everyone is eagerto
401 2010-10-19 17:26:22 <caution> did the security vulnerability allow code execution?
402 2010-10-19 17:26:35 <xelister> assuming the depends would be also satisfied
403 2010-10-19 17:26:44 <theymos> caution: No.
404 2010-10-19 17:28:09 <caution> how long does it take to get a coin on an average system?
405 2010-10-19 17:28:30 <theymos> caution: http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php
406 2010-10-19 17:28:32 <caution> nevermind, I see the faq
407 2010-10-19 17:29:43 <Kiba> it will take me 39 days to mine 50 bitcoins :(
408 2010-10-19 17:29:44 <sandos> takes a long time, likely. It was 2 weeks or so for a while ago but that was with much lower difficulty =)
409 2010-10-19 17:29:49 <Kiba> 1371 ain't so hot anymore
410 2010-10-19 17:30:50 <sandos> 34 days here
411 2010-10-19 17:31:19 <caution> can you configure it to use maximum cpu?
412 2010-10-19 17:31:38 <caution> how easy is it to use multiple machines at once?
413 2010-10-19 17:32:48 <caution> how much disk space does it take?
414 2010-10-19 17:32:52 <sandos> is sending -SIGHUP a correct-ish way to kill bitcoind?
415 2010-10-19 17:33:06 <theymos> sandos: Send SIGTERM.
416 2010-10-19 17:33:16 <sandos> it uses all cpu per default, afaik
417 2010-10-19 17:33:35 <sandos> running it on multiple machines is trivial, you just need to send your coins somewhere if you want them in one place =)
418 2010-10-19 17:33:38 <caution> I thought it used idle cpu
419 2010-10-19 17:33:44 <sandos> well, yes
420 2010-10-19 17:33:57 <sandos> would you really want it to use ALL cpu?
421 2010-10-19 17:34:04 <sandos> that way you cant use the machice :)
422 2010-10-19 17:35:35 <sandos> hmm, pocl still says "Method not found" even after compiling the bitcoin-patches git version if bitcoind
423 2010-10-19 17:38:30 <sandos> oops, that doesnt actually include getwork it seems
424 2010-10-19 17:46:06 <caution> what happens if I try sending the same coin to two people at the same time?
425 2010-10-19 17:47:19 <theymos> Whichever transaction gets into a block first will become "real".
426 2010-10-19 17:48:43 <caution> if I send you a coin can you instantly send it to someone else?
427 2010-10-19 17:50:11 <theymos> It's allowed, but Bitcoin won't do it (this was recently changed because someone was exploiting it).
428 2010-10-19 17:51:45 <caution> what did exploiting it allow them to gain?
429 2010-10-19 17:53:12 <theymos> They didn't gain anything, but they could send people bad transactions that would never clear. When the recipient of the bad transaction sends bitcoins, they might choose those bad coins, spreading the problem.
430 2010-10-19 17:53:20 <Teppy> theymos: was hoping to find you here...
431 2010-10-19 17:53:36 <theymos> Teppy: Why?
432 2010-10-19 17:53:53 <Teppy> I'm working on the part of Dragon's Tale that handles the case of the server crashing prior to recording that a user has withdrawn Bitcoins.
433 2010-10-19 17:54:30 <Teppy> What I want to do is query bitcoind for "all transactions sent to <label>"
434 2010-10-19 17:54:40 <Teppy> Something like this exists in...
435 2010-10-19 17:54:59 <Teppy> getreceivedbylabel
436 2010-10-19 17:55:36 <Teppy> And I see that you can enter comments in sendtoaddress, but I can't see a way in the JSON/RPC API to query those comments.
437 2010-10-19 17:56:12 <Teppy> (You did work on that API, right?)
438 2010-10-19 17:56:39 <theymos> No, I didn't.
439 2010-10-19 17:56:45 <theymos> You're probably thinking of gavinandresen
440 2010-10-19 17:57:13 <theymos> I know that stock Bitcoin can't do it, though. listtransactions might do what you need, and you could probably modify it to get the comments pretty easily.
441 2010-10-19 17:57:35 <jgarzik> Does bitcoin store those comments anywhere?  I thought that was for IP transactions only?
442 2010-10-19 17:57:52 <theymos> They're stored in the wallet.
443 2010-10-19 17:57:59 <Teppy> I think the comment-to field is for IP transactions.
444 2010-10-19 18:06:38 <sandos> I cant build latest from the http://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git.git, complaining about missing zlib stuff at linking
445 2010-10-19 18:06:44 <sandos> and I see no mention of zlib in the makefile?
446 2010-10-19 18:19:05 <sandos> seems -l z was missing and possibly a few others
447 2010-10-19 18:19:13 <sandos> diffed the official svn to the git repo
448 2010-10-19 20:27:24 <jgarzik> lovely.  LR software update introduced some as-yet-unknown API incompatibility.
449 2010-10-19 20:57:12 <ArtForz> urk.
450 2010-10-19 20:59:40 <Kiba> hello
451 2010-10-19 21:03:12 <caution> what's LR?
452 2010-10-19 21:03:19 <Kiba> liberty reserve
453 2010-10-19 21:03:23 <ArtForz> Liberty Reserve
454 2010-10-19 21:10:40 <Kiba> the whole world is inflating
455 2010-10-19 21:10:45 <Kiba> even bitcoin
456 2010-10-19 21:11:05 <Kiba> but bitcoin can only inflate to 21 million and inflation is extremely predictable even though there is no one person behind the control
457 2010-10-19 23:07:29 <jrabbit> why isn't hashespersec averaged?
458 2010-10-19 23:21:22 <gavinandresen> jrabbit:  I dunno.  Although I'd rather get a sampled number, because then I can average myself if I want (going the other way, averaged-to-sampled, is a whole lot harder).
459 2010-10-19 23:21:42 <jrabbit> maybe offer it averaged?
460 2010-10-19 23:22:10 <jrabbit> I mean it just seems a bit useless as a diagnostic to me as a human being