1 2010-10-28 00:00:09 <Malouin_> Hmmm
  2 2010-10-28 00:00:45 <ArtForz> problem is, if you screw that bottom left screw in too far, left lower edge of the cooler plate shorts something in that area and kills the DVI
  3 2010-10-28 00:01:03 <Malouin_> ahhhh, okay
  4 2010-10-28 00:01:13 <Malouin_> thats where the problem come from
  5 2010-10-28 00:01:46 <ArtForz> honestly, stay with the stock cooler and run the fan at 60-80%
  6 2010-10-28 00:02:00 <ArtForz> it's noisy, but at least it cools the VRMs decently
  7 2010-10-28 00:02:26 <ArtForz> check out the temps: http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/coolers/ac-accelero-xtreme-5970/30_dtemp(xbt).png
  8 2010-10-28 00:02:55 <ArtForz> stock cooler @ 100% gets 20???C lower VRM temps than accelero @ 100% ...
  9 2010-10-28 00:02:59 <Malouin_> lol...
 10 2010-10-28 00:03:03 <Malouin_> ridiculous
 11 2010-10-28 00:03:36 <Malouin_> except the noise, nothing bad to run those fan at 100% ?
 12 2010-10-28 00:03:47 <ArtForz> nope
 13 2010-10-28 00:04:05 <ArtForz> stock fan is a ball bearing unit, it should run for a looong time @ 100%
 14 2010-10-28 00:04:12 <ArtForz> so with accelero, 91???C VRM in furmark at STOCK voltage and clock (!)
 15 2010-10-28 00:04:12 <brocktice> If you don't mind yelling to communicate with anyone nearby, I suppose.
 16 2010-10-28 00:04:32 <ArtForz> DID YOU SAY SOMETHING?
 17 2010-10-28 00:04:36 <Malouin_> hehe ;)
 18 2010-10-28 00:04:54 <ArtForz> "white noise is good to preserve privacy of conversations"
 19 2010-10-28 00:05:04 <Malouin_> heating my place with 1 radeon 5970 is a bit cold, thats why i ordered more.
 20 2010-10-28 00:05:09 <ArtForz> yep
 21 2010-10-28 00:05:51 <ArtForz> with 8 or so 5970s in a room it should get warm and cozy :P
 22 2010-10-28 00:06:01 <brocktice> heh
 23 2010-10-28 00:06:05 <Malouin_> haha =p
 24 2010-10-28 00:06:34 <ArtForz> 8 OCed 5970s = ~ 3kW
 25 2010-10-28 00:07:12 <Malouin_> i'm lucky that electricity isn't priced high here
 26 2010-10-28 00:07:20 <ArtForz> reminds me of running a 32-node P3 cluster
 27 2010-10-28 00:07:44 <brocktice> Malouin_: what is it per kw-hour?
 28 2010-10-28 00:08:01 <ArtForz> had to open windows frequently to keep room temp < 25???C
 29 2010-10-28 00:08:20 <brocktice> ArtForz: you did that in your house?
 30 2010-10-28 00:08:24 <ArtForz> yep
 31 2010-10-28 00:08:27 <brocktice> for why?
 32 2010-10-28 00:08:41 <ArtForz> being the first private person to factor a RSA512
 33 2010-10-28 00:08:42 <Malouin_> 0,0545$ / kw-hour
 34 2010-10-28 00:08:50 <Malouin_> CAD*
 35 2010-10-28 00:08:58 <brocktice> wow, that IS cheap
 36 2010-10-28 00:09:01 <ArtForz> and that was in winter, with outside temps well below freezing
 37 2010-10-28 00:09:04 <ArtForz> yup
 38 2010-10-28 00:09:21 <brocktice> We pay about US$0.10/kw-hour, and other places people pay 3x as much or more in the States.
 39 2010-10-28 00:10:19 <Malouin_> I would hesitate a bit more if that costed me around 0.12$ per kw-hour
 40 2010-10-28 00:10:26 <Malouin_> but even at that price, the profit is big
 41 2010-10-28 00:10:35 <ArtForz> *converts* I'd pay about $0.20/kwh if i'd get all my power from the utility company
 42 2010-10-28 00:11:00 <Malouin_> ouch
 43 2010-10-28 00:11:22 <ArtForz> well, most of my power comes from a combined heat+power unit
 44 2010-10-28 00:11:26 <brocktice> Well, I do run a heater in here during the winter
 45 2010-10-28 00:11:38 <ArtForz> = my electrical heating is ... free
 46 2010-10-28 00:11:38 <brocktice> If I start this mining machine up I can probably run it less.
 47 2010-10-28 00:11:46 <Malouin_> hehe
 48 2010-10-28 00:11:55 <Malouin_> yeah
 49 2010-10-28 00:12:12 <ArtForz> in summer things look different of course
 50 2010-10-28 00:14:14 <Malouin_> I was thinking about bitcoin generating today, and about selling them, and I come to a conclusion :
 51 2010-10-28 00:14:16 <ArtForz> here's a good pic of the problem: http://www.xbitlabs.com/misc/picture/?src=/images/coolers/ac-accelero-xtreme-5970/23_ac_597ont_big.jpg&1=1
 52 2010-10-28 00:14:31 <Malouin_> Bitcoin generator will have an edge on people who want to buy and sell for profit
 53 2010-10-28 00:14:42 <Malouin_> Because our cost is nearly nothing compare to them, so we can lower our price
 54 2010-10-28 00:14:55 <brocktice> And this is how the price will converge to the cost to produce. :)
 55 2010-10-28 00:15:02 <ArtForz> see how badly that PCB is bent?
 56 2010-10-28 00:15:06 <brocktice> yeah, eeew
 57 2010-10-28 00:15:08 <Malouin_> wow
 58 2010-10-28 00:15:17 <Malouin_> like i said, it's ugly
 59 2010-10-28 00:15:42 <ArtForz> reason is that screw in the center
 60 2010-10-28 00:16:16 <ArtForz> right above the X
 61 2010-10-28 00:16:35 <ArtForz> loosen that a bit and the card stays nice and straight
 62 2010-10-28 00:16:40 <brocktice> huh
 63 2010-10-28 00:16:49 <Malouin_> I see
 64 2010-10-28 00:16:51 <brocktice> looks like it's because the heatsink is hittting that black doodad on the right.
 65 2010-10-28 00:19:10 <Malouin_> ArtForz: did you OC the GPU memory clock ?
 66 2010-10-28 00:19:18 <ArtForz> nope
 67 2010-10-28 00:20:48 <ArtForz> no reason for it, 10% increase in mem clock = 0.4% increase in hashrate
 68 2010-10-28 00:21:06 <Malouin_> ok
 69 2010-10-28 00:22:37 <Kiba> ArtForz: do you use your CPU for mining too?
 70 2010-10-28 00:22:45 <ArtForz> nope
 71 2010-10-28 00:23:12 <Diablo-D3> http://hc.apache.org/httpclient-3.x/apidocs/org/apache/commons/httpclient/params/HttpParams.html
 72 2010-10-28 00:23:15 <Diablo-D3> I love how
 73 2010-10-28 00:23:18 <Diablo-D3> there isnt a list of
 74 2010-10-28 00:23:19 <Diablo-D3> params
 75 2010-10-28 00:24:00 <brocktice> When I tried using my CPU along with the GPUs on this machine (not anything like ArtForz's machines), it substantially slowed the GPUs.
 76 2010-10-28 00:24:13 <brocktice> Despite the fact that the GPU crunching doesn't really seem to produce much system load otherwise.
 77 2010-10-28 00:24:16 <Diablo-D3> really?
 78 2010-10-28 00:24:19 <brocktice> yeah
 79 2010-10-28 00:24:33 <ArtForz> I guess added latency is what causes problems
 80 2010-10-28 00:24:36 <Diablo-D3> turning it off had zero effect
 81 2010-10-28 00:24:39 <brocktice> cut the speed by about 50%
 82 2010-10-28 00:24:50 <brocktice> maybe it's NVidia's OpenCL implementation, who knows.
 83 2010-10-28 00:25:37 <brocktice> tried again just now, ranges from 0.1 to 0.5x the performance I get without CPU generation.
 84 2010-10-28 00:25:59 <Diablo-D3> nvidia just sucks
 85 2010-10-28 00:30:11 <brocktice> Am I crazy ordering this machine?
 86 2010-10-28 00:30:30 <brocktice> I'm not hard up for the money or anything but it's not cheap
 87 2010-10-28 00:30:35 <Malouin_> do you mean a 5970 ?
 88 2010-10-28 00:30:51 <brocktice> I mean a 5970 + supporting hardware
 89 2010-10-28 00:31:13 <Malouin_> I got a 5970, had it before generating bitcoin and i was pretty happy with it
 90 2010-10-28 00:31:23 <Malouin_> Now i'm even more happy :p
 91 2010-10-28 00:31:35 <brocktice> heh
 92 2010-10-28 00:32:23 <brocktice> I guess even if the value of bitcoins go down quite a bit and difficulty goes up, it should pay itself off in a month or two.
 93 2010-10-28 00:32:39 <Malouin_> maybe less
 94 2010-10-28 00:32:59 <brocktice> Ideally I'm figuring about 10 days, but there are a lot of variables.
 95 2010-10-28 00:33:26 <brocktice> how important is PCI Express speed?
 96 2010-10-28 00:33:33 <Diablo-D3> it has zero effect
 97 2010-10-28 00:33:42 <brocktice> good to know.
 98 2010-10-28 00:33:55 <brocktice> I was concerned if I try to cram in more cards later it would slow it way down.
 99 2010-10-28 00:34:28 <Diablo-D3> erm?
100 2010-10-28 00:34:36 <Diablo-D3> each pci-e is a series of individual buses.
101 2010-10-28 00:34:44 <Diablo-D3> er, each pci-e slot
102 2010-10-28 00:34:50 <brocktice> Well, many motherboards drop the speed of some of the slots as you add more cards.
103 2010-10-28 00:34:57 <ArtForz> well, speed diff is not much
104 2010-10-28 00:35:03 <Diablo-D3> brocktice: not speed, width
105 2010-10-28 00:35:04 <brocktice> So, 4 slots that function at 16x as long as you're only using one of them
106 2010-10-28 00:35:16 <Diablo-D3> you mean x16
107 2010-10-28 00:35:18 <ArtForz> 5970 in gen2 x16 2x340.0Mh/s
108 2010-10-28 00:35:19 <brocktice> yes
109 2010-10-28 00:35:26 <ArtForz> 5970 in gen2 x8 2x339.8Mh/s
110 2010-10-28 00:35:34 <brocktice> I stand corrected.
111 2010-10-28 00:35:36 <ArtForz> 5970 in gen1 x4 2x339.4Mh/s
112 2010-10-28 00:35:37 <Diablo-D3> brocktice: you could have them running at x1, there is no real difference
113 2010-10-28 00:35:44 <brocktice> And since this is not a bandwidth intensive application, it's not an isue.
114 2010-10-28 00:36:09 <Malouin_> My 5970 OCed at 900mhz is doing 2x330mhash/s . Fan at 80%, temp fo from 80 to 82c
115 2010-10-28 00:36:20 <ArtForz> so... reducing the avbilable bandwidth to 1/8, I got a ... 0.18% performance drop
116 2010-10-28 00:36:52 <ArtForz> should try at gen1 x1 :P
117 2010-10-28 00:38:16 <brocktice> You can tell how much I've cared about GPUs since AGP was the top of the line
118 2010-10-28 00:38:25 <ArtForz> Malouin: sounds about normal
119 2010-10-28 00:38:37 <Diablo-D3> brocktice: gpu consumption of bus bandwidth has not really increased since the agp 4x days
120 2010-10-28 00:38:49 <ArtForz> is that 900MHz at stock Vcore ?
121 2010-10-28 00:38:54 <brocktice> I mean, I haven't kept up on the technology at all.
122 2010-10-28 00:38:57 <Malouin_> nop, 1.15
123 2010-10-28 00:39:05 <Diablo-D3> brocktice: pci-e 1.0 x1 == agp 1x
124 2010-10-28 00:39:08 <brocktice> Mistaking the bus width for the bus speed
125 2010-10-28 00:39:10 <brocktice> etc etc
126 2010-10-28 00:39:26 <Diablo-D3> brocktice: 1.0 x16 == 2x agp 8x, 2.0 x16 == 4x agp 8x
127 2010-10-28 00:39:53 <Malouin_> temps seem stable
128 2010-10-28 00:40:08 <Diablo-D3> pci-e 1.0 x1 == agp x1 == pci 32bit 66mhz == pci 64bit 33mhz
129 2010-10-28 00:40:16 <ArtForz> really
130 2010-10-28 00:40:25 <Diablo-D3> brocktice: and they do make x32 slots, but you're never going to see one
131 2010-10-28 00:40:35 <ArtForz> I thought PCIe x1 = 250MB/s
132 2010-10-28 00:40:40 <brocktice> This HP server has PCI-X, for which you can buy almost nothing anymore.
133 2010-10-28 00:40:53 <Diablo-D3> brocktice: pci-x is an evolved standard for pci 64bit
134 2010-10-28 00:41:08 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: I equate 250 and 266
135 2010-10-28 00:41:15 <ArtForz> ahhh, k
136 2010-10-28 00:41:18 <ArtForz> then... yeah
137 2010-10-28 00:42:28 <brocktice> alright, thanks for the pointers guys. New miner system should probably be here by monday.
138 2010-10-28 00:42:35 <brocktice> Now, off to bedfordshire.
139 2010-10-28 00:42:52 <Malouin_> cya brock
140 2010-10-28 00:43:02 <ArtForz> cya
141 2010-10-28 00:48:38 <Malouin_> any clue why sometime 1 core go from 95% to 87% activity ? Or is it normal
142 2010-10-28 00:52:39 <ArtForz> does the clore lcock drop then?
143 2010-10-28 00:52:42 <ArtForz> *core clock
144 2010-10-28 00:53:23 <Malouin_> don't seem to
145 2010-10-28 00:53:40 <ArtForz> do you do anything on the GUI on that box?
146 2010-10-28 00:54:07 <Malouin_> this. the web irc, and the soft to check the temp, on win 7
147 2010-10-28 00:54:26 <ArtForz> that might cause it
148 2010-10-28 00:54:42 <Malouin_> ok
149 2010-10-28 00:54:48 <ArtForz> I can make my use% jump all over the placve by just dragging windows around on linux
150 2010-10-28 00:55:01 <Malouin_> that would explain it yeah, thanks
151 2010-10-28 00:59:07 <Malouin_> I'm out for a better world. See you tomorrow
152 2010-10-28 01:09:50 <Diablo-D3> fuck it
153 2010-10-28 01:20:40 <Diablo-D3> json-rpc can suck my nuts
154 2010-10-28 01:20:46 <Diablo-D3> I have to SEND json to the fucking thing too?
155 2010-10-28 01:35:55 <Diablo-D3> {"result":{"block":"000000015b4274a41d2e6d4058edaf4998800d7f360a3b128ebd8d47000b1dc500000000bbf79680bfd9852319b52b76f58c11b7bcaa8748a28482eaa11b41ead11ef3894cc8ef8c1b1e7eca00000000000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000","state":"02a0eca41c41832e418a850171f2ecc9380d22132e2d81ce984785202186fce3","target":"000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ca7e1e000000
156 2010-10-28 01:35:58 <Diablo-D3> there goddamnit.
157 2010-10-28 01:35:59 <Diablo-D3> there.
158 2010-10-28 01:36:00 <Diablo-D3> god.
159 2010-10-28 01:36:01 <Diablo-D3> damn.
160 2010-10-28 01:36:02 <Diablo-D3> it.
161 2010-10-28 01:36:10 <Diablo-D3> I wrote my own fucking code to do it
162 2010-10-28 01:39:04 <nanotube> code to do what?
163 2010-10-28 01:39:09 <Diablo-D3> json rpc
164 2010-10-28 01:39:24 <nanotube> ah cool
165 2010-10-28 01:40:05 <Diablo-D3> so basically 20 lines
166 2010-10-28 01:40:21 <Diablo-D3> using jackson (popular json lib for java) and java's own http shit
167 2010-10-28 02:19:11 <Diablo-D3> ooh
168 2010-10-28 02:19:15 <Diablo-D3> it uses even less code
169 2010-10-28 02:19:26 <Diablo-D3> ObjectNode response = (ObjectNode) mapper.readTree(connection.getInputStream());
170 2010-10-28 02:19:32 <Diablo-D3> replaces about 5-10 lines
171 2010-10-28 02:19:57 <Diablo-D3> so the whole thing takes about, eh, 15 or so
172 2010-10-28 02:26:08 <Kiba> bitcoin! a neal stephenson plot device!
173 2010-10-28 02:26:32 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: ohshi-!
174 2010-10-28 02:26:49 <Diablo-D3> double oh shit!
175 2010-10-28 02:27:15 <Diablo-D3> you're right!
176 2010-10-28 02:27:27 <Diablo-D3> fuck!
177 2010-10-28 02:28:04 <Diablo-D3> hes either going to sue us or give us blowjobs!
178 2010-10-28 02:28:08 <Diablo-D3> Im not sure which is worse!
179 2010-10-28 02:29:33 <Kiba> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1574.msg18954#msg18954
180 2010-10-28 02:29:54 <Kiba> I got it off from somebody else
181 2010-10-28 02:30:12 <Kiba> bitcoin in 15 words for laymen
182 2010-10-28 02:31:58 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: fuck!
183 2010-10-28 02:32:00 <Diablo-D3> thats
184 2010-10-28 02:32:01 <Diablo-D3> fuck!
185 2010-10-28 02:32:38 <Kiba> what?
186 2010-10-28 02:32:50 <Kiba> I remarked before that I feel like I am in a cyberpunk novel
187 2010-10-28 02:35:14 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: its perfect!
188 2010-10-28 02:35:56 <Kiba> perfect?
189 2010-10-28 02:36:19 <Diablo-D3> perfect!
190 2010-10-28 02:36:36 <Kiba> which is perfect?
191 2010-10-28 02:44:05 <Kiba> just wait until we get into wired magazine
192 2010-10-28 02:46:08 <lfm> wired wouldnt be as big as slashdot I think
193 2010-10-28 02:47:55 <Kiba> you sure?
194 2010-10-28 02:49:36 <lfm> of course not., thats why i said "i think"
195 2010-10-28 02:51:03 <Kiba> well, we'll be on the business magazine stand all over the country
196 2010-10-28 02:51:14 <Kiba> and it will even be read by people in prisons
197 2010-10-28 02:51:15 <Kiba> and so on
198 2010-10-28 02:53:13 <lfm> slashdot is all over the wolrd
199 2010-10-28 02:53:33 <Kiba> but not everybody read slashdot
200 2010-10-28 02:56:08 <lfm> wired has been shrinking for years
201 2010-10-28 02:57:42 <genjix> who said bitcoin is gonna be in wires?
202 2010-10-28 02:57:45 <genjix> wired
203 2010-10-28 03:11:03 <Diablo-D3> a _magazine_
204 2010-10-28 03:11:07 <Diablo-D3> is smaller than slashdot?
205 2010-10-28 03:17:18 <lfm> I just think some mention in wored would have a smaller effect on bitcoin than the slashdot ref did
206 2010-10-28 03:17:28 <lfm> wored ->wired
207 2010-10-28 03:20:47 <Kiba> volume has risen to 72635 bitcoins in the last 24 hours
208 2010-10-28 03:23:33 <lfm> yup mtgox is going way up, someone buying btc like mad it seems
209 2010-10-28 03:24:15 <Kiba> hmm, my bitcoin spectulation is a lot more profitable than selling penny ads
210 2010-10-28 03:34:50 <Kiba> the funny thing is, even though I made some profit in USD, I can't purchased the same amount of 100 bitcoins back when I first started spectulating
211 2010-10-28 03:35:10 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: why, wanna buy more?
212 2010-10-28 03:35:37 <Kiba> I purchased 100 btc for about 6 bucks
213 2010-10-28 03:35:52 <Kiba> but now, at the exchange rate, it required 19 bucks to purchased 100 btc
214 2010-10-28 03:43:04 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: you around?
215 2010-10-28 03:47:21 <noagendamarket> Kiba you should have purchased 10 000 at .06 lol
216 2010-10-28 03:48:13 <Kiba> and then wait until the price go up to 0.19?
217 2010-10-28 03:48:20 <Kiba> hindsight
218 2010-10-28 03:48:44 <Diablo-D3> I fucking hate python
219 2010-10-28 03:48:51 <Diablo-D3> Im looking at m0's script
220 2010-10-28 03:49:01 <Diablo-D3> at no point does he send the work back to bitcoind
221 2010-10-28 03:49:02 <Diablo-D3> YET
222 2010-10-28 03:49:05 <Diablo-D3> HE DOES
223 2010-10-28 03:49:40 <Kiba> m0?
224 2010-10-28 03:49:46 <Kiba> who is m0?
225 2010-10-28 03:49:50 <Kiba> and what script does he write?
226 2010-10-28 03:49:59 <Diablo-D3> m0mchi
227 2010-10-28 03:50:08 <Diablo-D3> he wrote the py miner
228 2010-10-28 03:53:50 <lfm> he only sends the nonce back
229 2010-10-28 03:54:14 <Diablo-D3> nonce and entire block
230 2010-10-28 03:54:19 <Diablo-D3> but python is just nuts
231 2010-10-28 03:54:24 <Diablo-D3> I found out where hes doing it
232 2010-10-28 04:36:01 <Diablo-D3> {"block":"00000001a222fc3fd98527eeec70e5b8ae840d4d5cbb8a88cf273bf70007dc5000000000a4cedacda4449472b151564a421b0a722d91d3d79f2fbdc46e27221ed1b7b87a4cc919a71b1e7eca00000000000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000","state":"9a9dc50c6c2346e8418ff6f97da1511a6449b280939f93aa64bc7524d4a2cabd","target":"000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ca7e1e0000000000","ext
233 2010-10-28 04:36:02 <Diablo-D3> state: 9a9dc50c6c2346e8418ff6f97da1511a6449b280939f93aa64bc7524d4a2cabd
234 2010-10-28 04:36:04 <Diablo-D3> target: 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000xxxxxxxx00000000
235 2010-10-28 04:36:58 <Diablo-D3> top is the json from bitcoind getwork
236 2010-10-28 04:37:24 <Diablo-D3> bottom is parsed into actual numbers from strings, and then shit back out as strings
237 2010-10-28 04:43:52 <lfm> is there a question?  Diablo-D3 ?
238 2010-10-28 04:47:44 <Diablo-D3> lfm: nope
239 2010-10-28 15:14:21 <mtgox> anyone looking to get out $1000 from mtgox that wants paypal?
240 2010-10-28 15:14:40 <yebyen> damn
241 2010-10-28 15:14:54 <yebyen> mtgox: is it required that i first had put $1000 in?
242 2010-10-28 15:15:02 <yebyen> :)
243 2010-10-28 15:15:33 <mtgox> or a lot of BTC
244 2010-10-28 15:16:37 <nanotube> heh
245 2010-10-28 15:16:55 <nanotube> are you looking to test paypal withdrawals, mtgox ?
246 2010-10-28 15:17:22 <mtgox> no someone owes me $1000 and only has paypal
247 2010-10-28 15:17:32 <nanotube> oh
248 2010-10-28 15:18:16 <Malouin_> :p
249 2010-10-28 15:25:41 <Kiba> hmm
250 2010-10-28 15:25:48 <Kiba> Russian rubes are apperantly worthless
251 2010-10-28 15:26:15 <Kiba> 1 rubes only buy .45 btc
252 2010-10-28 15:26:20 <Kiba> no wonder trade volume are so low
253 2010-10-28 15:27:11 <MacRohard> it's funny that the price increase has increased trade volumes on mtgox/bcm
254 2010-10-28 15:27:18 <Malouin_> hehehe
255 2010-10-28 15:27:36 <Kiba> mtgox isn't exactly breaking record
256 2010-10-28 15:27:49 <MacRohard> perhaps not.. it was high yesterday though
257 2010-10-28 15:27:52 <MacRohard> 70000 or something
258 2010-10-28 15:27:54 <Kiba> but then it is kinda hard to break 200,000 volumes
259 2010-10-28 15:27:59 <Kiba> 63000
260 2010-10-28 15:28:21 <Kiba> the rally is not as quite hardcore I guess
261 2010-10-28 15:30:19 <MacRohard> i wonder how many coins satoshi has
262 2010-10-28 15:32:27 <Kiba> Satoshi will be one of the wealthiest man in the world
263 2010-10-28 15:32:57 <Kiba> because he took the biggest entrepenurial risk of all, inventing a new money and succeeding at it
264 2010-10-28 15:33:46 <MacRohard> maybe he's a frontman for rothschild
265 2010-10-28 15:33:59 <genjix> how is that a huge risk?
266 2010-10-28 15:34:12 <Kiba> well, I supposed you're right
267 2010-10-28 15:34:13 <genjix> and you dont know that bitcoin will be famous
268 2010-10-28 15:34:23 <genjix> it could still fail :p
269 2010-10-28 15:34:25 <MacRohard> indeed
270 2010-10-28 15:34:28 <genjix> (although i hope not)
271 2010-10-28 15:34:37 <Kiba> in a year or two, we'll be OMG FRICKING RICH
272 2010-10-28 15:34:41 <Kiba> or
273 2010-10-28 15:34:47 <Kiba> we wasted lot of money
274 2010-10-28 15:34:48 <genjix> or maybe it does become a popular micropayment
275 2010-10-28 15:34:48 <Kiba> and time
276 2010-10-28 15:34:55 <genjix> but not HUGE
277 2010-10-28 15:35:01 <genjix> just moderately sucessful
278 2010-10-28 15:35:06 <genjix> with its own niche
279 2010-10-28 15:35:17 <genjix> (although i hope not- want it to be BIIGIGIGIGIGIGGI!!!)
280 2010-10-28 15:35:19 <UukGoblin> of online gaming.
281 2010-10-28 15:35:21 <Kiba> I consider bitcoins to be safer than paypal
282 2010-10-28 15:35:30 <genjix> me2
283 2010-10-28 15:35:37 <genjix> UukGoblin: what are you referring to?
284 2010-10-28 15:35:45 <genjix> the UIGEA?
285 2010-10-28 15:35:45 <UukGoblin> the niche
286 2010-10-28 15:35:47 <MacRohard> the problem with bitcoins is there's no economy asside from the speculative exchanges
287 2010-10-28 15:35:57 <MacRohard> and the exchange systems are essentially illegal
288 2010-10-28 15:36:00 <UukGoblin> my prediction is that banks and governments will notice it and try to put a stop to it
289 2010-10-28 15:36:03 <genjix> UukGoblin: agree :) are you doing anything in bitcoin in that area?
290 2010-10-28 15:36:08 <genjix> haha impossible
291 2010-10-28 15:36:13 <genjix> i will tell them to fuck off
292 2010-10-28 15:36:15 <Kiba> by then, it WILL BE TOO LATE
293 2010-10-28 15:36:19 <genjix> and they cant do jackshit
294 2010-10-28 15:36:31 <genjix> its why im making free software poker for bitcoin
295 2010-10-28 15:36:35 <genjix> a big fuck you to government
296 2010-10-28 15:36:36 <Kiba> first they IGNORE you
297 2010-10-28 15:36:45 <Kiba> then, they'll LAUGH at you
298 2010-10-28 15:36:47 <genjix> i am making server, client to distribute for free
299 2010-10-28 15:36:54 <Kiba> Then they try to FIGHT you
300 2010-10-28 15:36:57 <Kiba> then YOU WIN!
301 2010-10-28 15:37:01 <UukGoblin> genjix, no, I don't have enough time
302 2010-10-28 15:37:10 <Kiba> now, we're not even in the ignore state
303 2010-10-28 15:37:13 <Kiba> we're invisible
304 2010-10-28 15:37:32 <genjix> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tAASvcrJ78
305 2010-10-28 15:37:38 <MacRohard> i dunno.. alto of people have looked at it and gone 'meh - not interested'
306 2010-10-28 15:37:47 <genjix> old video. my client is much better now
307 2010-10-28 15:37:50 <UukGoblin> genjix, check out libtmcg
308 2010-10-28 15:37:51 <genjix> im working on server
309 2010-10-28 15:37:51 <Kiba> MacRohard: true. lot of slashdotters did.
310 2010-10-28 15:37:54 <Malouin_> Kiba: I agree, they didn't noticed bitcoin yet
311 2010-10-28 15:38:17 <UukGoblin> genjix, also, pavel already's done something like the client/server thing at betco.in (and he released all his sources)
312 2010-10-28 15:38:21 <Kiba> they probably think we're a bunch of LUNATIC
313 2010-10-28 15:38:28 <genjix> UukGoblin: wow thats great libmtcg
314 2010-10-28 15:38:28 <Kiba> I like to be thought of LUNATIC
315 2010-10-28 15:38:42 <genjix> although theres a problem with mental poker (that algorithm)
316 2010-10-28 15:38:50 <genjix> its how to escrow the pot while in play
317 2010-10-28 15:39:09 <UukGoblin> genjix, I think that could be done by some sort of extension to the bitcoin protocol
318 2010-10-28 15:39:11 <genjix> i plan to release this first software, and then ill work on p2p poker
319 2010-10-28 15:39:25 <UukGoblin> cool
320 2010-10-28 15:39:49 <genjix> well if bitcoin had the ability to do *fast* escrows while in play
321 2010-10-28 15:39:50 <Kiba> genjix: by then it will be TOO LATE
322 2010-10-28 15:39:51 <genjix> then thats great
323 2010-10-28 15:39:57 <UukGoblin> about libtmcg, these guys said it's a bit too slow for poker, but that was 5 years ago
324 2010-10-28 15:40:07 <genjix> well mental poker is a slow algorithm
325 2010-10-28 15:40:07 <MacRohard> i think a cash (bitcoin) only settlement securities trading platform might be a good thing to have
326 2010-10-28 15:40:13 <genjix> but theres ways to speed it up
327 2010-10-28 15:40:23 <genjix> to ensure *mostly* secure shuffling
328 2010-10-28 15:40:30 <UukGoblin> mhm
329 2010-10-28 15:40:36 <genjix> but the escrow problem is much bigger
330 2010-10-28 15:40:38 <UukGoblin> then again
331 2010-10-28 15:40:52 <UukGoblin> escrows could be done using some sort of web-of-trust model
332 2010-10-28 15:41:39 <genjix> one idea I had was storing the current money in the pot equally among lots of people (like 30) so that if steals the cash then its not a big loss
333 2010-10-28 15:42:00 <genjix> but the problem is player disconnects
334 2010-10-28 15:42:16 <UukGoblin> genjix, well one solution to escrowing I have is: all players put in a special transaction with no recipient to buy in for the tournament, you play in a tournament setting, at the end of the tournament all players send cryptographically proven log of the game, and then bitcoin nodes decide who won the tournament and make the transfer accordingly
335 2010-10-28 15:42:19 <genjix> so then i moved to the idea of dedicated servers on top of a web of trust (like what you're suggesting)
336 2010-10-28 15:42:20 <MacRohard> i would think that people would trust the poker site
337 2010-10-28 15:42:33 <UukGoblin> I guess bitcoin could get some plugins for handling such special transactions and tests
338 2010-10-28 15:42:39 <MacRohard> i mean it will naturally get a reputation as people play on it
339 2010-10-28 15:42:50 <genjix> but then i realised that the multiple server --> client model is close enough to that
340 2010-10-28 15:42:56 <genjix> and much more flexible
341 2010-10-28 15:43:06 <genjix> i.e i can write it to work with robots on top of irc
342 2010-10-28 15:43:11 <UukGoblin> hrm that's true
343 2010-10-28 15:43:22 <UukGoblin> another big problem in games with more than 2 players is collusion
344 2010-10-28 15:43:27 <genjix> people can easily write their own clients
345 2010-10-28 15:43:35 <UukGoblin> which I think can /only/ be solved on a web-of-trust model
346 2010-10-28 15:43:36 <genjix> yep exactly, collusion is a big problem
347 2010-10-28 15:43:51 <genjix> esp when choosing escrows collectively
348 2010-10-28 15:43:59 <genjix> but with the irc again
349 2010-10-28 15:44:06 <genjix> it is proven technology too
350 2010-10-28 15:44:13 <genjix> with ways to stop attacks
351 2010-10-28 15:44:23 <genjix> so you gain the immediate benefits of irc security too
352 2010-10-28 15:44:33 <UukGoblin> mhm
353 2010-10-28 15:44:38 <UukGoblin> there are some existing irc poker bots
354 2010-10-28 15:44:45 <UukGoblin> pytbot is one I used
355 2010-10-28 15:44:50 <UukGoblin> (or pybot?)
356 2010-10-28 15:44:54 <UukGoblin> did tournament games
357 2010-10-28 15:44:59 <genjix> i tried poker-engine but i think its too old
358 2010-10-28 15:45:13 <genjix> i think maybe those and betco.in are using poker-engine
359 2010-10-28 15:45:26 <genjix> but i think its possible to do better now
360 2010-10-28 15:45:37 <genjix> like give players the option to design their own games .etc
361 2010-10-28 15:45:38 <UukGoblin> cool
362 2010-10-28 15:45:49 <UukGoblin> nice to see someone having interest in the same thing
363 2010-10-28 15:45:51 <UukGoblin> and really
364 2010-10-28 15:46:04 <UukGoblin> games like second life or eve are just more complex poker
365 2010-10-28 15:46:20 <genjix> maybe a tournament with decreasing blinds, or 200 buyin stack in a cash game
366 2010-10-28 15:46:30 <UukGoblin> and gambling law is stupid.
367 2010-10-28 15:46:34 <genjix> lets players choose the restrictions
368 2010-10-28 15:46:43 <genjix> yep, its a skill game
369 2010-10-28 15:46:47 <UukGoblin> decreasing blinds?
370 2010-10-28 15:46:55 <UukGoblin> how would that work? ;-]
371 2010-10-28 15:47:08 <genjix> its just a random suggestion what could be possible
372 2010-10-28 15:47:24 <genjix> i mean like you sit in a tournament and the starting blinds are really high
373 2010-10-28 15:47:30 <genjix> then they decrease slowly
374 2010-10-28 15:47:46 <genjix> when they reach 0 the game stops.
375 2010-10-28 15:47:47 <UukGoblin> ... and the tournament goes forever/
376 2010-10-28 15:47:52 <UukGoblin> oh...
377 2010-10-28 15:47:55 <genjix> person with biggest stack wins
378 2010-10-28 15:48:10 <genjix> new game, new strategies :)
379 2010-10-28 15:48:22 <UukGoblin> funky
380 2010-10-28 15:48:35 <genjix> rush poker has been popular
381 2010-10-28 15:48:44 <nathan7> BOOM
382 2010-10-28 15:48:50 <genjix> im sure with powerr in players hands, we can do more :)
383 2010-10-28 15:48:57 <genjix> more cool games
384 2010-10-28 15:49:14 <genjix> and no rake!
385 2010-10-28 15:49:17 <genjix> free :)
386 2010-10-28 15:49:58 <UukGoblin> minimal rakes should go to escrows/servers
387 2010-10-28 15:50:06 <UukGoblin> so that there is an incentive to run one
388 2010-10-28 15:50:26 <genjix> why
389 2010-10-28 15:51:47 <UukGoblin> so that people run lots of servers
390 2010-10-28 15:51:54 <UukGoblin> that then get trusted
391 2010-10-28 15:52:00 <UukGoblin> and some of them are over tor
392 2010-10-28 15:52:07 <UukGoblin> and gov't can fuck off
393 2010-10-28 15:52:11 <genjix> let them worry about it
394 2010-10-28 15:52:23 <genjix> if they want to charge to setup an account or whatever on their server
395 2010-10-28 15:52:46 <genjix> or they can tax the big winners and not charge the small winners/losers
396 2010-10-28 15:53:04 <genjix> whatever, its server policy, not mine. but i think rake free servers are possible
397 2010-10-28 15:53:11 <genjix> look at freenode for instance :p
398 2010-10-28 15:53:14 <genjix> free
399 2010-10-28 15:53:30 <UukGoblin> ah, sure, yeah.
400 2010-10-28 15:53:41 <UukGoblin> I like psyc
401 2010-10-28 15:53:45 <UukGoblin> in that regard. :-]
402 2010-10-28 15:54:53 <genjix> psyc, the protocol?
403 2010-10-28 15:55:25 <UukGoblin> yeah
404 2010-10-28 15:55:48 <UukGoblin> if you design a room/channel definition for psyc
405 2010-10-28 15:55:54 <UukGoblin> you get all the routing stuff for free
406 2010-10-28 16:01:16 <yebyen> why do i have a telephone on my desk
407 2010-10-28 16:01:21 <yebyen> nobody in the whole company calls me :D
408 2010-10-28 16:04:06 <nanotube> post your number on here, someone'll call you :P hehe
409 2010-10-28 16:12:41 <genjix> yeah post it
410 2010-10-28 16:13:45 <yebyen> lol
411 2010-10-28 16:13:56 <yebyen> i'm not even supposed to be on irc
412 2010-10-28 16:14:03 <yebyen> it's firewalled, but ssh is not
413 2010-10-28 16:14:36 <genjix> work ewwww
414 2010-10-28 16:14:46 <genjix> im allergic
415 2010-10-28 16:14:47 <Malouin_> same here =D
416 2010-10-28 16:23:04 <yebyen> yeah it's great not being poor anymore though
417 2010-10-28 16:23:13 <yebyen> i just got out of 7 year college program :D
418 2010-10-28 17:40:33 <brocktice> yebyen: I have my phone number posted right on my web page and still hardly anybody calls me
419 2010-10-28 17:40:48 <brocktice> It's google voice though, so at least I can always filter if necessary
420 2010-10-28 18:02:41 <Kiba> hmm
421 2010-10-28 18:02:52 <Kiba> ;mtgox
422 2010-10-28 18:03:01 <Kiba> bitcoin rose to the price of .191
423 2010-10-28 18:08:01 <Kiba> one of the perk of being an anarcho-capitalist is the ability to play with a Neal Stephenson plot device
424 2010-10-28 18:08:19 <nathan7> :o
425 2010-10-28 18:08:23 <nanotube> even socialists can play with them. heh
426 2010-10-28 18:09:27 <Kiba> well, a Neal Stephenson polot device will have a high probability of selecting anarcho-capitalist
427 2010-10-28 18:19:51 <nanotube> mmm, mtg and bcm prices seem to have approximately equalized
428 2010-10-28 18:20:40 <Teppy> Anyone around that's willing to test the Dragon's Tale Linux installer? I need someone that has never installed A Tale in the Desert. (To make sure it copies over all needed files.)
429 2010-10-28 18:23:56 <genjix> Teppy: yeah here
430 2010-10-28 18:24:12 <Teppy> Ok, try going to the website and then Downloads page.
431 2010-10-28 18:24:13 <genjix> can i install it in a sandbox?
432 2010-10-28 18:24:20 <genjix> which website?
433 2010-10-28 18:24:23 <Teppy> Should be able to.
434 2010-10-28 18:24:30 <Teppy> http://www.dragons.tl
435 2010-10-28 18:24:33 <genjix> i dont even know what the project is :p
436 2010-10-28 18:24:34 <genjix> ok
437 2010-10-28 18:25:05 <genjix> ohh nice
438 2010-10-28 18:25:06 <Teppy> I'll send some Bitcoins once your character is created.
439 2010-10-28 18:26:15 <genjix> Teppy: firstly it doesn't download
440 2010-10-28 18:26:20 <genjix> i get an empty file
441 2010-10-28 18:26:21 <genjix> 0 bytes
442 2010-10-28 18:26:24 <Teppy> Linux version doesn't?
443 2010-10-28 18:26:40 <genjix> linux version does
444 2010-10-28 18:26:53 <Teppy> The Windows and OSX versions should be up later tonight.
445 2010-10-28 18:27:01 <genjix> 0 bytes
446 2010-10-28 18:27:29 <Teppy> Hmm, strange.
447 2010-10-28 18:27:34 <Teppy> Let me fool with the server.
448 2010-10-28 18:29:14 <ArtForz> oh, and download page os tab display is b0rked with Opera
449 2010-10-28 18:30:18 <niekie> Teppy: yup, also get a 0 byte file.
450 2010-10-28 18:32:58 <nanotube> i get a 'file not found'
451 2010-10-28 18:33:35 <Teppy> Ok, try now - might have to clear your cache.
452 2010-10-28 18:33:54 <Teppy> Which version of Opera?
453 2010-10-28 18:34:23 <ArtForz> 10.63 linux amd64
454 2010-10-28 18:35:10 <Teppy> Ok, I'll install that in a bit.
455 2010-10-28 18:35:46 <ArtForz> doesnt seem to want to do vertical text
456 2010-10-28 18:35:55 <Teppy> Installing Opera now.
457 2010-10-28 18:37:36 <Teppy> Wow, easy install.
458 2010-10-28 18:38:20 <Teppy> Huh. Is vertical text something new?
459 2010-10-28 18:38:40 <ArtForz> seems to be for the opera devs :P
460 2010-10-28 18:39:14 <Teppy> I used to use Opera primarily, but then their Javascript got so slow that Slashdot was painful to use.
461 2010-10-28 18:39:40 <nanotube> s/their javascript/slashdot/ :)
462 2010-10-28 18:40:13 <Teppy> niekie / genjix: Download working?
463 2010-10-28 18:41:21 <OneFixt> Asks > Bids on MtG - time for a retracement
464 2010-10-28 18:41:41 <Teppy> Where can you see the ask/bid chart of MtGox?
465 2010-10-28 18:41:49 <Kiba> ;mtgox
466 2010-10-28 18:41:50 <OneFixt> The market depth window.
467 2010-10-28 18:42:01 <Kiba> bitbot is not alive!
468 2010-10-28 18:42:05 <Kiba> this is so annoying
469 2010-10-28 18:42:20 <OneFixt> Or in this case, the sum of all visible asks vs bids.
470 2010-10-28 18:42:29 <nanotube> Teppy: yes, dl working, 47mb or so file offered for download
471 2010-10-28 18:45:22 <OneFixt> (If anyone would like to dump some coins for the short term, now is probably a good time to do so.)
472 2010-10-28 18:46:43 <nanotube> how's it looking on bcm, for bids/asks?
473 2010-10-28 18:47:57 <Teppy> Gotta head out...
474 2010-10-28 18:48:12 <niekie> Teppy: hm, not here.
475 2010-10-28 18:48:20 <Kiba> so it's going to be hard to go beyond .191
476 2010-10-28 18:48:33 <niekie> Though probably it's cached
477 2010-10-28 18:48:34 <Kiba> and I think I am the first guy who brought bitcoins for .191.
478 2010-10-28 18:48:34 <Teppy> What isn't here?
479 2010-10-28 18:48:49 <niekie> Teppy: the download working.
480 2010-10-28 18:48:57 <Teppy> Try refreshing your cache.
481 2010-10-28 18:49:01 <Kiba> I was betting that it will go beyond .191 but now I have tos uffer the consequence
482 2010-10-28 18:49:04 <Teppy> (Linux version is the only one that's up.)
483 2010-10-28 18:49:27 <nanotube> Kiba: well, /eventually/ it will :)
484 2010-10-28 18:50:01 <OneFixt> Haven't checked BCM bids/asks, but I notice BCM last trade is lower than MtG.  Since BCM and MtG are now both in LR, I would expect price to start dropping from this point.
485 2010-10-28 18:51:02 <Kiba> nanotube: it will but in the mean time I don't make money. For now ;)
486 2010-10-28 18:51:12 <Teppy> I have to head home, but if you do get it installed it will require at least 1 Bitcoin to log in. I'll send you 10 each when I'm back online if you want to try it out and have 10 BTC of your own.
487 2010-10-28 18:51:22 <Teppy> (Or 1 of your own!)
488 2010-10-28 18:51:25 <nanotube> heh try short selling bitcoins.
489 2010-10-28 18:51:33 <Kiba> hmm
490 2010-10-28 18:51:40 <OneFixt> I would love to sell some short right now.
491 2010-10-28 18:51:50 <Kiba> how does short selling work?
492 2010-10-28 18:51:54 <brocktice> Kiba: yeah I actually bought a few for 0.2 yesterday on bcm, because I wanted a certain number
493 2010-10-28 18:52:03 <brocktice> I don't think there's a mechanism to short bitcoins right now
494 2010-10-28 18:52:05 <nanotube> you borrow bitcoins, sell them, then buy them back for cheaper, and return them
495 2010-10-28 18:52:19 <brocktice> unless someone wants to loan them to you
496 2010-10-28 18:52:20 <OneFixt> Asks have gotten tired of competing and people are starting to sell at market.
497 2010-10-28 18:52:47 <Kiba> nanotube: sound like a risky proposition
498 2010-10-28 18:52:49 <nanotube> i'm willing to lend some bitcoins for the purposes of short selling to willing/trusted parties
499 2010-10-28 18:52:56 <brocktice> you'd want a contract
500 2010-10-28 18:53:06 <Kiba> not a government enforced contract
501 2010-10-28 18:53:08 <nanotube> Kiba: yes, you lose money if bitcoins go up, gain if they go down. opposite to when you buy.
502 2010-10-28 18:53:18 <OneFixt> nanotube: how many are you lending?
503 2010-10-28 18:53:44 <nanotube> heh, i'd probably start small, until trust is established. how about 100 btc?
504 2010-10-28 18:54:17 <Kiba> what's the interest rate?
505 2010-10-28 18:54:19 <nanotube> just under $20 by today's prices :)
506 2010-10-28 18:54:24 <OneFixt> Oh, I was thinking around 10k
507 2010-10-28 18:54:44 <nanotube> heh, that'd require too much counterparty risk.
508 2010-10-28 18:54:54 <OneFixt> agreed
509 2010-10-28 18:55:07 <OneFixt> It would be great to have reliable short-selling mechanisms in place though.
510 2010-10-28 18:55:31 <nanotube> since it's too easy for you to walk away and never be seen again. 100 i'm willing to risk, given our interactions so far. but 10k is too much. :)
511 2010-10-28 18:55:43 <nanotube> heh yea, with margin requirements and all that.
512 2010-10-28 18:55:49 <OneFixt> Sure, I don't blame you.
513 2010-10-28 18:55:53 <nanotube> Kiba: 1pct per month, say
514 2010-10-28 18:57:10 <Kiba> I am bullish at the moment
515 2010-10-28 18:57:17 <OneFixt> Kiba: I am sorry.
516 2010-10-28 18:57:20 <nanotube> heh
517 2010-10-28 18:57:50 <Kiba> there's all sort of opporunities
518 2010-10-28 18:57:52 <Kiba> and there's bounties
519 2010-10-28 18:57:59 <Kiba> there should be more bounties for people who wish to earn bitcoins
520 2010-10-28 19:00:44 <nanotube> let's make repurchase agreements :)
521 2010-10-28 19:00:46 <nanotube> hehe
522 2010-10-28 19:01:22 <Kiba> hmm
523 2010-10-28 19:01:27 <Kiba> it's already 5 in the afternoon
524 2010-10-28 19:01:31 <Kiba> still did not code anything
525 2010-10-28 19:01:32 <Kiba> that's bad
526 2010-10-28 19:03:38 <nanotube> Kiba: yes... more coding, less chatting, get on with it. :)
527 2010-10-28 19:03:54 <nanotube> see my btc lending offer on #bitcoin-otc
528 2010-10-28 19:07:21 <Kiba> look like we're experiencing collapse
529 2010-10-28 19:07:54 <Kiba> if .1710 is broken down, than it is a collapse...
530 2010-10-28 19:08:14 <nanotube> too early to say. may be just a simple stabilization of price for the moment.
531 2010-10-28 19:08:27 <nanotube> the runup over the past couple of weeks was rather sharp.
532 2010-10-28 19:13:10 <OneFixt> I expect price to fall to .10-.12 within a few hours.
533 2010-10-28 19:14:52 <brocktice> I would be sad to lose the value, but happy because I want more bitcoins
534 2010-10-28 19:15:02 <brocktice> so, easier to buy them at that price.
535 2010-10-28 19:15:34 <OneFixt> Yep, that's always the fun part. Guessing both price and time.
536 2010-10-28 19:24:58 <genjix> what are you guys on about
537 2010-10-28 19:25:11 <genjix> it was 15 btc / $1 a few days back
538 2010-10-28 19:25:35 <genjix> now its 5.75 btc / $1 and you're prematurely talking about a price collapse?
539 2010-10-28 19:27:48 <ArtForz> one trade at 0.1731 ... for not quite 3 btc ...
540 2010-10-28 19:31:24 <brocktice> That guy doing analysis on the forums predicted 'support' at around 0.17
541 2010-10-28 19:31:51 <MacRohard> heh
542 2010-10-28 19:32:07 <OneFixt> Well, it IS a bit of support.  Holding it there for 10 minutes can also count as support =)
543 2010-10-28 19:33:36 <Kiba> nanotube: let me buy 100 btc ;)
544 2010-10-28 19:33:45 <OneFixt> =D
545 2010-10-28 19:34:14 <Kiba> lend me 100 btc...
546 2010-10-28 19:34:58 <Kiba> 1FJmczLXnoYdHbq6nL9h386USt3dCskpZa
547 2010-10-28 19:35:01 <Kiba> my bitcoin address
548 2010-10-28 19:35:55 <Kiba> later, I suggest we sign using public key cryptography that I keep hearing of
549 2010-10-28 19:35:55 <MacRohard> 1GSLYkZEzqDws8mwoo8T53Hs6VDRPEFLqu
550 2010-10-28 19:36:11 <Kiba> and create a ring of trust
551 2010-10-28 19:36:17 <jrabbit> huh
552 2010-10-28 19:36:22 <jrabbit> for why
553 2010-10-28 19:36:28 <brocktice> I use PGP but I never really had a ring of trust
554 2010-10-28 19:36:35 <genjix> yeah you need to meet in real life really
555 2010-10-28 19:36:46 <jrabbit> pgp is a pita to use on a mac.
556 2010-10-28 19:37:01 <brocktice> No it isn't
557 2010-10-28 19:37:01 <jrabbit> then again I hate the stuff pgp is designed for
558 2010-10-28 19:37:05 <brocktice> MacGPG
559 2010-10-28 19:37:19 <genjix> why do you hate the stuff its designed for?
560 2010-10-28 19:37:22 <brocktice> Here's why we need it: I am actually noagendamarket on the forums.
561 2010-10-28 19:37:23 <Kiba> I never used public key cryptography liek that before
562 2010-10-28 19:37:30 <brocktice> Now, send me bitcoins.
563 2010-10-28 19:37:30 <genjix> cryptographic messaging?
564 2010-10-28 19:37:30 <jrabbit> someone picked up the pgp port?
565 2010-10-28 19:37:36 <genjix> whats to hate about that?
566 2010-10-28 19:37:45 <brocktice> Because you like noagendamarket (me) right?
567 2010-10-28 19:37:58 <jrabbit> http://www.gpgmail.org/ ah there
568 2010-10-28 19:38:01 <brocktice> picked up? jrabbit, was it dropped? I've not been a heavy mac user for the last year
569 2010-10-28 19:38:07 <jrabbit> yes
570 2010-10-28 19:38:11 <jrabbit> the develoepr resigned
571 2010-10-28 19:38:17 <brocktice> Oh, damn
572 2010-10-28 19:38:17 <jrabbit> 19 August 2010: GPGMail finally found a new home after the original author St??phane Corth??sy had to resign from continuing develoment on it. A group of developpers now braught it to http://www.gpgmail.org/. So if you need encryption in Apple Mail it is strongly recommended to turn to this new website.
573 2010-10-28 19:38:30 <brocktice> sure, but what about macgpg?
574 2010-10-28 19:38:31 <jrabbit> :)
575 2010-10-28 19:38:33 <brocktice> macgpg != gpgmail
576 2010-10-28 19:38:43 <brocktice> But, I'm not actually noagendamarket
577 2010-10-28 19:38:45 <jrabbit> donno
578 2010-10-28 19:38:49 <jrabbit> they don't update
579 2010-10-28 19:38:51 <brocktice> but say I say I'm actually me: I am Brock Tice.
580 2010-10-28 19:38:52 <jrabbit> and I don't care.
581 2010-10-28 19:38:56 <genjix> no im the real noagendamarket
582 2010-10-28 19:38:59 <brocktice> How do I prove it if we want to have a transaction?
583 2010-10-28 19:39:24 <jrabbit> via secret libertard mental telepathy
584 2010-10-28 19:39:27 <brocktice> So these issues of shorting and trades etc.
585 2010-10-28 19:39:43 <brocktice> If there were a group of people that knew and trusted each other to do such things
586 2010-10-28 19:39:53 <brocktice> Then you'd need a way to verify that you were talking with the right person.
587 2010-10-28 19:40:00 <brocktice> Say I trust Kiba and Kiba trusts MacRohard
588 2010-10-28 19:40:11 <genjix> call him on skype
589 2010-10-28 19:40:12 <brocktice> then by web of trust I'd automatically trust MacRohard somewhat.
590 2010-10-28 19:40:26 <genjix> use webcam
591 2010-10-28 19:40:28 <brocktice> Like Facebook for trust, heh
592 2010-10-28 19:40:35 <brocktice> Or more like LinkedIn really
593 2010-10-28 19:40:39 <brocktice> "Extended network"
594 2010-10-28 19:44:24 <nathan7> Trust networks aren't new
595 2010-10-28 19:44:44 <brocktice> no, but to a lot of people they are a new concept
596 2010-10-28 19:45:01 <brocktice> even though they may use some form of them already
597 2010-10-28 19:45:31 <genjix> all security is built on the idea of networks of trust
598 2010-10-28 19:45:36 <genjix> there's no security scheme that isn't
599 2010-10-28 19:46:50 <brocktice> sure, ssl for websites is a prominent example
600 2010-10-28 19:51:36 <nanotube> Kiba: MacRohard so you wanna take me up on the offer, as posted on bitcoin-otc?
601 2010-10-28 19:56:10 <brocktice> Hi mtgox
602 2010-10-28 19:56:40 <brocktice> I remember reading somewhere about an interface to your site for automatic trading
603 2010-10-28 19:56:51 <brocktice> Is that published anywhere, or are people just reverse-engineering it?
604 2010-10-28 20:02:12 <Kiba> nanotube: yeah, the whole 1% interest rate thing
605 2010-10-28 20:03:42 <Kiba> hmm
606 2010-10-28 20:03:50 <Kiba> I just got back from barefoot running, getting more hardcore
607 2010-10-28 20:07:57 <mtgox> brocktice: send me an email (jed@mtgox.com) and I'll send it to you
608 2010-10-28 20:09:14 <brocktice> okie doke, thanks
609 2010-10-28 20:12:23 <nanotube> Kiba: ok, let's talk on -otc then
610 2010-10-28 20:44:24 <nanotube> Kiba: make a key, i'll send you encrypted email. :)
611 2010-10-28 20:44:50 <theymos> Kiba: Want to sign my key? It's 0xDAB591E7. I'll sign yours, too.
612 2010-10-28 20:47:00 <Kiba> hmm
613 2010-10-28 20:47:11 <Kiba> don't know how to?
614 2010-10-28 20:47:48 <Teppy> niekie / genjix - any luck?
615 2010-10-28 20:48:02 <nanotube> theymos: uploaded your signed key to mit keyserver.
616 2010-10-28 20:48:14 <theymos> nanotube: Cool; thanks!
617 2010-10-28 20:48:21 <nanotube> np :)
618 2010-10-28 20:48:27 <nanotube> feel free to reciprocate.
619 2010-10-28 20:48:42 <theymos> What is your key?
620 2010-10-28 20:48:57 <nanotube> same one i signed with.
621 2010-10-28 20:49:13 <nanotube> gpg --show-sigs
622 2010-10-28 20:49:25 <Kiba> any idea where I should backup my key?
623 2010-10-28 20:49:58 <nanotube> somewhere secure.
624 2010-10-28 20:50:17 <nanotube> and make sure not to forget your password.
625 2010-10-28 20:50:26 <nanotube> (maybe back that up somewhere /else/ secure too)
626 2010-10-28 20:52:38 <Teppy> Anyone else in here alive and willing to test the Linux version of Dragon's Tale installer? I'll send Bitcoins.
627 2010-10-28 20:53:07 <Kiba> me!
628 2010-10-28 20:53:26 <Teppy> http://www.dragons.tl
629 2010-10-28 20:56:04 <Teppy> Tell me if the download works, and then if the install is smooth.
630 2010-10-28 20:56:23 <Kiba> hmm
631 2010-10-28 20:57:24 <theymos> nanotube: I signed your cert.
632 2010-10-28 20:58:11 <theymos> Kiba: To sign, use --sign-key and then upload *my* cert to a keyserver.
633 2010-10-28 20:58:50 <Kiba> woah....slow down
634 2010-10-28 20:59:05 <nanotube> Kiba: nice, got it. :)
635 2010-10-28 20:59:10 <nanotube> s/kiba/theymos/
636 2010-10-28 21:04:03 <theymos> Kiba: Create a key with 'gpg2 --gen-key' if you haven't already. Run 'gpg2 --recv-keys 0xDAB591E7' to get my key. Then 'gpg2 --sign-key 0xDAB591E7' to sign it. Then 'gpg2 --send-keys 0xDAB591E7' to upload it.
637 2010-10-28 21:04:30 <Kiba> I am creating a key
638 2010-10-28 21:06:38 <doublec> theymos, would you be willing to sign mine?
639 2010-10-28 21:07:01 <theymos> doublec: Yes.
640 2010-10-28 21:07:13 <doublec> theymos, 0x9753DFAB
641 2010-10-28 21:08:30 <Kiba> Heap: could not malloc a heap
642 2010-10-28 21:08:47 <Kiba> client doesn't work? :(
643 2010-10-28 21:09:23 <theymos> doublec: Signed.
644 2010-10-28 21:09:46 <Kiba> finally created a key
645 2010-10-28 21:11:17 <doublec> theymos, thanks, signed yours too
646 2010-10-28 21:11:42 <Kiba> bitcoin are not backed by CPU power, right?
647 2010-10-28 21:11:53 <Kiba> each bitcoin is a unique hash
648 2010-10-28 21:12:18 <theymos> doublec: Thanks. I've never had any signatures before, and now I have two!
649 2010-10-28 21:12:51 <Kiba> Teppy: hey hey. I got Heap: could not malloc a heap
650 2010-10-28 21:13:10 <theymos> Kiba: No. Bitcoins are not "things". They are just a sequence of transactions, starting with one "magical" one that produces 50 BTC from nothing.
651 2010-10-28 21:13:35 <nanotube> doublec: signed yours too
652 2010-10-28 21:13:38 <Teppy> Kiba: When installing, or when running the installed program?
653 2010-10-28 21:13:47 <Kiba> I installed
654 2010-10-28 21:13:51 <Kiba> then I launched
655 2010-10-28 21:13:56 <doublec> thanks nanotube, I'll get yours
656 2010-10-28 21:14:10 <Teppy> Which version of Linux?
657 2010-10-28 21:14:11 <nanotube> Teppy: remember, i had the same error on my comp with only 1g of ram.
658 2010-10-28 21:14:35 <Kiba> version of linux?
659 2010-10-28 21:14:42 <Kiba> I used the archlinux distro
660 2010-10-28 21:15:04 <Teppy> nanotube: Which version are you on?
661 2010-10-28 21:15:28 <nanotube> Teppy: that was on ubuntu karmic
662 2010-10-28 21:15:55 <Teppy> Ok, let me see if I can grab the guy that did the Linux port.
663 2010-10-28 21:18:05 <Teppy> Pluribus will be in in a bit to help debug.
664 2010-10-28 21:20:06 <Teppy> 32 bit or 64 bit?
665 2010-10-28 21:20:14 <nanotube> i was on 32bit. dunno what kiba's on
666 2010-10-28 21:20:23 <Kiba> 32bit
667 2010-10-28 21:20:35 <nanotube> Kiba: how much ram do you have? and how much of it's free?
668 2010-10-28 21:20:51 <nanotube> Kiba: and what's your kernel version?
669 2010-10-28 21:21:07 <Teppy> Is it fltk-elaunch that's crapping out, or fltk-eclient
670 2010-10-28 21:21:08 <nanotube> doublec: thanks :)
671 2010-10-28 21:21:08 <Teppy> ?
672 2010-10-28 21:21:13 <doublec> nanotube, no problem :)
673 2010-10-28 21:21:43 <nanotube> Teppy: don't recall. as you remember, i deleted all the files from my netbook where the problem was occurring, and i don't rememeber the details anymore.
674 2010-10-28 21:22:02 <Teppy> k
675 2010-10-28 21:22:04 <nanotube> Teppy: was just making a note that i saw the same error as kiba. but proceed with the rest with him. :)
676 2010-10-28 21:23:02 <Teppy> Back in a bit.
677 2010-10-28 21:25:23 <Kiba> bitcoins is not backed by CPU power right?
678 2010-10-28 21:26:05 <nanotube> Kiba: not really 'backed by'... see what theymos said at 19.13.11
679 2010-10-28 21:47:20 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: no more than USD is backed by gold ;)
680 2010-10-28 21:49:14 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: you here?
681 2010-10-28 21:49:17 <Kiba> CPU and GPU are used to mine bitcoin and create bitcoin blocks?
682 2010-10-28 21:49:40 <Kiba> GPU and GPU are used to mine bitcoin and create bitcoin blocks, nothing more?
683 2010-10-28 21:50:16 <theymos> It takes a bit of CPU to do anything, of course, but that is the only "big" calculation done by Bitcoin.
684 2010-10-28 21:50:20 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: programs use processing power, yes.
685 2010-10-28 21:50:38 <ArtForz> Diablo-D3: yes
686 2010-10-28 21:50:43 <Kiba> ok, I'll consider that a definte yes on my statement
687 2010-10-28 21:51:08 <Kiba> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1845418
688 2010-10-28 21:51:20 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: look at m0's miner.... why does it send both the original state and the new one that he does the three sharounds on?
689 2010-10-28 21:51:56 <ArtForz> look at the core sha256 algo
690 2010-10-28 21:52:11 <Diablo-D3> I have, I dont understand it completely
691 2010-10-28 21:52:18 <Diablo-D3> he plugs the orig into the second sha256
692 2010-10-28 21:52:25 <Diablo-D3> but why not just use it normally?
693 2010-10-28 21:52:26 <ArtForz> a,b,c... = initial_state; 64 rounds; a,b,c, ... += initial_state
694 2010-10-28 21:52:51 <ArtForz> so if you do a few rounds outside of the inner loop, you have to pass the initial state as well as the state after the first rounds in
695 2010-10-28 21:53:00 <ArtForz> as you still need to add that initial state at the end
696 2010-10-28 21:53:04 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: what Im saying is
697 2010-10-28 21:53:10 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: why not ONLY send state2?
698 2010-10-28 21:53:21 <ArtForz> okay, SLOWLY AGAIN
699 2010-10-28 21:54:26 <ArtForz> state0 = initial_state; state1 = round(state0); state2 = round(state1); ... ; result_state = state64 + initial_state
700 2010-10-28 21:55:03 <ArtForz> so if you do 3 rounds OUTSIDE THE LOOP, the loop needs state3 and initial state
701 2010-10-28 21:55:11 <ArtForz> tate3 becausr thats the state the next round needs
702 2010-10-28 21:55:21 <ArtForz> and itnitial_state because that has to be added to the satet after the  lat orund
703 2010-10-28 22:14:14 <Kiba> so...what should I do now that I have created a public key?
704 2010-10-28 22:14:42 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: but theres no state1 and 3
705 2010-10-28 22:15:09 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: the code does state2 = copy(state); sharound(state2) three times
706 2010-10-28 22:16:13 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: then inside the code it does the rest of the rounds, and does the second sha256
707 2010-10-28 22:16:15 <ArtForz> sharound updates state2
708 2010-10-28 22:16:26 <Diablo-D3> yes it does
709 2010-10-28 22:16:33 <theymos> Kiba: Upload it to a keyserver with --send-keys. Sign the keys people listed above. Make some test signatures/encryptions.
710 2010-10-28 22:16:34 <Diablo-D3> so why not use ONLY state2?
711 2010-10-28 22:16:39 <ArtForz> ARGH
712 2010-10-28 22:16:50 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: its not "outside the loop", the shader skips the first three rounds
713 2010-10-28 22:16:54 <ArtForz> because. you. need. to. add. initial. state. after. last. round.
714 2010-10-28 22:17:18 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: WHY
715 2010-10-28 22:17:24 <Diablo-D3> whats so special in the initial state?
716 2010-10-28 22:17:28 <ArtForz> because thats what the fucking spec says
717 2010-10-28 22:18:17 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: what does bitcoind hand me in state? the inner or the outer sha256 state?
718 2010-10-28 22:18:33 <ArtForz> outer sha2 state after processing first 64 byte block
719 2010-10-28 22:18:39 <Diablo-D3> AHH
720 2010-10-28 22:18:42 <Diablo-D3> now it makes sense
721 2010-10-28 22:18:58 <Diablo-D3> I thought it was handing me the inner state
722 2010-10-28 22:20:02 <ArtForz> assume you have a state-updating block sha256
723 2010-10-28 22:20:12 <ArtForz> then sha256_block(state, data) does temp_state = state; 64* round(temp_state); state += temp_state;
724 2010-10-28 22:20:20 <Diablo-D3> yeah I get it now
725 2010-10-28 22:20:26 <ArtForz> we process 80 bytes in the outer sha2, so 2 blocks
726 2010-10-28 22:20:37 <Diablo-D3> but doesnt this make the process more complex?
727 2010-10-28 22:20:40 <ArtForz> yes
728 2010-10-28 22:20:43 <ArtForz> but also faster
729 2010-10-28 22:20:55 <Diablo-D3> or slower since it consumes registers faster
730 2010-10-28 22:20:57 <ArtForz> passing in 32 extra bytes is faster than doing the first 3 rounds
731 2010-10-28 22:21:12 <Diablo-D3> no no
732 2010-10-28 22:21:15 <Diablo-D3> thats not what I meant
733 2010-10-28 22:22:17 <ArtForz> you need the same # of regs anyways
734 2010-10-28 22:22:48 <Kiba> what does it mean for "others may not see this signature" when I goes to sign?
735 2010-10-28 22:22:53 <Diablo-D3> header -> first 64 bytes first round on cpu -> seconds 12? bytes on cpu -> rest on gpu -> whole second round on gpu
736 2010-10-28 22:23:06 <ArtForz> yep
737 2010-10-28 22:23:16 <jrabbit> it won't download the blocks
738 2010-10-28 22:23:29 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: as opposed to first 64 bytes of first ANd second rounds on cpu
739 2010-10-28 22:23:41 <theymos> Kiba: You won't export your signatures with --send-keys if you do that. You don't want to make public signatures without the person's permission.
740 2010-10-28 22:23:44 <ArtForz> you cant do more than 12 bytes outside the loop, because then comes nonce
741 2010-10-28 22:24:01 <ArtForz> *12 bytes of the second half of the header
742 2010-10-28 22:24:14 <ArtForz> and each GPU thread does a diff nonce
743 2010-10-28 22:24:31 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: bitcoind does sha256(sha256()), what if I do just sha256() and NOT hack the second sha256?
744 2010-10-28 22:24:41 <Diablo-D3> and do the second normally
745 2010-10-28 22:25:04 <ArtForz> huH?
746 2010-10-28 22:25:26 <Kiba> theymos: so, no?
747 2010-10-28 22:25:45 <Kiba> I already uploaded my public key
748 2010-10-28 22:25:53 <Diablo-D3> header -> first 64 bytes first sha256 on cpu -> second 12? bytes first sha256 on cpu -> rest of first sha256 gpu -> whole second sha256 on gpu
749 2010-10-28 22:25:56 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: ^
750 2010-10-28 22:26:30 <ArtForz> isnt that what we're doing?
751 2010-10-28 22:26:35 <Diablo-D3> no
752 2010-10-28 22:26:38 <Diablo-D3> whats being done now is
753 2010-10-28 22:27:36 <Diablo-D3> header -> first 64 bytes first AND second sha256 on cpu -> second 12 bytes first sha256 on cpu -> rest of first sha256 on gpu -> push second sha256 state back in -> finish second sha256
754 2010-10-28 22:27:49 <ArtForz> impossible
755 2010-10-28 22:28:20 <ArtForz> you can't start the second sha256 before you finish the 2nd block of the first sha256
756 2010-10-28 22:28:44 <ArtForz> because the output hash of the first sha256 is the first 32 bytes of data for the 2nd sha256
757 2010-10-28 22:28:45 <Diablo-D3> but you said bitcoind sent me the outer state, not the inner state
758 2010-10-28 22:29:01 <ArtForz> well, okay, then its inner state
759 2010-10-28 22:29:10 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit
760 2010-10-28 22:29:18 <Diablo-D3> so theres no way to win here?
761 2010-10-28 22:29:33 <ArtForz> if it were that easy, people would've already done it :P
762 2010-10-28 22:29:34 <theymos> Kiba: The signatures are attached to the public key you sign, not your public key. Use --sign-key to sign someone's key and then --send-keys to upload it. You have to download someone's key with --recv-keys first, of course.
763 2010-10-28 22:30:01 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: this is as optimized as it gets?
764 2010-10-28 22:30:03 <ArtForz> really, except for a few small tweaks m0mchils OCL miner is as fast as it gets
765 2010-10-28 22:30:12 <Diablo-D3> fuck.
766 2010-10-28 22:30:38 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: btw, my miner does everything but actually run the miner
767 2010-10-28 22:31:02 <Diablo-D3> I build the shader, I json-rpc, I parse the results, and I do the first three sharounds
768 2010-10-28 22:31:03 <ArtForz> you can try to get better ALU and register usage by prodding the CL compiler, try to reduce latency and keep the ALUs busy as much as possible
769 2010-10-28 22:31:22 <ArtForz> but as far as I see algorithmically it's the end of the line
770 2010-10-28 22:33:55 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: I cant even reduce latency any father
771 2010-10-28 22:33:57 <Diablo-D3> *farther
772 2010-10-28 22:34:06 <Diablo-D3> its already running in all the registers except for the final result push
773 2010-10-28 22:35:26 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: I just dont like that final check
774 2010-10-28 22:42:30 <Kiba> theymos: downloaded your key
775 2010-10-28 22:42:47 <Kiba> so I signed someone key using my key?
776 2010-10-28 22:45:24 <theymos> Kiba: Export my key (--armor --export 0xDAB591E7) and upload it to http://pgp.mit.edu/ . Then you can see if your signature was added to http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0xC6555693DAB591E7 .
777 2010-10-28 22:46:37 <Kiba> hmm, the previous key were revoked
778 2010-10-28 22:47:28 <theymos> Kiba: Yes; I revoked it. If you looked at the revokation you'd see that the reason was "Superseded by <fingerprint of my current key>".
779 2010-10-28 22:47:59 <Malouin_> theymos: thanks for the trade btw =)
780 2010-10-28 22:48:04 <Malouin_> and hi to everone else :P
781 2010-10-28 22:48:49 <theymos> Malouin_: Thank you, too! You have the same name as someone else who frequents this channel. Maybe you should pick something else.
782 2010-10-28 22:49:07 <Kiba> hmm, I'll try again tommorow
783 2010-10-28 22:49:31 <Malouin_> What ? :O I never saw the other Malouin, but if it's the case i'm gonna rename myself
784 2010-10-28 22:51:31 <theymos> Malouin_: He's online right now ('malouin'). I PMed him about our trade... he was confused. Possibly he only came to this channel because I PMed him, but I seem to remember seeing him before, also.
785 2010-10-28 22:52:07 <Malouin_> Well, I come here everyday for 1-2 weeks now, that may be me :P
786 2010-10-28 22:52:21 <Malouin_> but I could change to xxmalouinxx
787 2010-10-28 22:52:32 <theymos> Could be that I've gotten it all reversed...
788 2010-10-28 22:52:42 <Malouin_> hehehe
789 2010-10-28 22:54:03 <Teppy> Back
790 2010-10-28 22:55:41 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: hey, the check, dont I just have to, really, check if the first 5 or 6 or whatever ints == 0?
791 2010-10-28 22:55:58 <ArtForz> one is plenty ;)
792 2010-10-28 22:56:14 <Diablo-D3> why?
793 2010-10-28 22:56:34 <ArtForz> because only 1 in 2**32 hashes on avg will have H == 0
794 2010-10-28 22:57:18 <ArtForz> then redo that hash on the host and check if it's < target
795 2010-10-28 22:57:39 <Diablo-D3> you mean check as in pass it to bitcoind?
796 2010-10-28 22:57:52 <ArtForz> either that or do the check in your opencl host
797 2010-10-28 22:58:22 <Diablo-D3> it'd be faster to just have bitcoind do it
798 2010-10-28 22:58:27 <Teppy> Pluribus: No idea, but it's fine to change it to 1G if it's a client, 1.5G is it's a server.
799 2010-10-28 22:58:32 <ArtForz> whatever
800 2010-10-28 23:08:18 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: whats the correct int index for the nonce?
801 2010-10-28 23:08:32 <sneak> ArtForz: what do you plan to do with your fancy mining farm when a 100k node botnet decides to try 250kh/sec on each box
802 2010-10-28 23:08:50 <Diablo-D3> he'll just make a bigger farm
803 2010-10-28 23:09:12 <sneak> the small botnet described in my example will still beat him to every block
804 2010-10-28 23:09:18 <ArtForz> nope it wont
805 2010-10-28 23:09:23 <ArtForz> it's only 25Gh/s
806 2010-10-28 23:09:54 <Teppy> How many is yours?
807 2010-10-28 23:10:04 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: how big is yours, and how often do you get a block?
808 2010-10-28 23:10:18 <ArtForz> currently about 3.7Gh/s as one 5970 is offline
809 2010-10-28 23:10:21 <sneak> ok, so when he beats you to half of them, and realizes that bitcoins are worth real money, and his other friend who runs a botnet 3x larger notices...
810 2010-10-28 23:10:39 <sneak> i anticipate this is within 120 days
811 2010-10-28 23:11:00 <Diablo-D3> oh shut up.
812 2010-10-28 23:11:13 <sneak> i was using a conservative example
813 2010-10-28 23:11:20 <Diablo-D3> I finally have a chance to have a little bit of money
814 2010-10-28 23:11:22 <sneak> and i'm only asking because i know ArtForz is very smart
815 2010-10-28 23:11:24 <Diablo-D3> quit screwing it up for me
816 2010-10-28 23:11:27 <sneak> and must consider these things
817 2010-10-28 23:11:32 <sneak> i am wondering if he knows something i don't
818 2010-10-28 23:11:42 <ArtForz> well, simply because the economic incentive isn't there
819 2010-10-28 23:12:05 <sneak> ArtForz: how do you figure?  do you anticipate bitcoins becoming worthless?
820 2010-10-28 23:12:14 <ArtForz> you can't generate more than 7200btc a day.
821 2010-10-28 23:12:29 <ArtForz> no matter if you have 10k nodes or 10M
822 2010-10-28 23:12:31 <sneak> yeah but electricity is free on botnetted machines for the botnetter
823 2010-10-28 23:12:44 <ArtForz> so, whoever has the biggest botnet will get ... the biggest share of 7200 BTC
824 2010-10-28 23:12:55 <ArtForz> and for that they run all zombies at 100% CPU
825 2010-10-28 23:13:57 <ArtForz> combine that with the abdundance of notebooks nowadays and you just increased your daily loss of zombies by a lot
826 2010-10-28 23:14:41 <sneak> i doubt they'd run at 100%
827 2010-10-28 23:14:44 <theymos> Botnet controllers can probably make more money doing other things.
828 2010-10-28 23:14:56 <sneak> it'd be easy to make a feedback-client that keeps cpu at 20 or 30%
829 2010-10-28 23:15:04 <sneak> theymos: sending spam can happen in parallel
830 2010-10-28 23:15:08 <ArtForz> now you need 3-5x the number of zombies
831 2010-10-28 23:15:14 <sneak> AND, not XOR :)
832 2010-10-28 23:15:27 <Malouin_> Bang
833 2010-10-28 23:15:32 <sneak> ArtForz: that's why i used the 250kh/s number and not 1M
834 2010-10-28 23:15:58 <ArtForz> I suspect thats still pretty unprofitable
835 2010-10-28 23:16:07 <sneak> it's free money if you already have the network
836 2010-10-28 23:16:11 <sneak> it's not like your electricity
837 2010-10-28 23:16:16 <sneak> err, it's not like it's your electricity
838 2010-10-28 23:16:23 <sneak> and it's not like 20% cpu is gonna make anyone notice
839 2010-10-28 23:16:44 <Malouin_> On any case
840 2010-10-28 23:16:58 <sneak> i dunno, i'm excited about mining, i just bought a retarded expensive gpu on your data to run a miner myself
841 2010-10-28 23:17:05 <Malouin_> once the connections number will be over NINE THOUSAND, we will know that something isn't right
842 2010-10-28 23:17:13 <sneak> but the moment i see the difficulty spike that says my prediction was right, it's going on ebay before it loses any more value :)
843 2010-10-28 23:17:21 <ArtForz> well, running a full node on each zombie would be crazy
844 2010-10-28 23:17:32 <sneak> why?
845 2010-10-28 23:17:43 <sneak> the network is designed for scale, is it not?
846 2010-10-28 23:17:50 <sneak> obv irc bootstrapping has got to go
847 2010-10-28 23:18:01 <ArtForz> not for that scale
848 2010-10-28 23:18:02 <sneak> but the broadcast network itself can handle 100k nodes, no?
849 2010-10-28 23:18:45 <ArtForz> well, all the addr broadcasts might cause problems
850 2010-10-28 23:18:47 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: er, whats the correct int index for the nonce?
851 2010-10-28 23:19:36 <theymos> sneak: I doubt it.
852 2010-10-28 23:19:54 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: 17?
853 2010-10-28 23:19:55 <sneak> theymos: i feel like a network that can handle 1k nodes can handle 100k
854 2010-10-28 23:19:57 <sneak> 1M, probably not
855 2010-10-28 23:20:21 <sneak> i haven't looked at the code tho
856 2010-10-28 23:20:25 <Diablo-D3> sneak: but the network doesnt HAVE to
857 2010-10-28 23:20:26 <ArtForz> so, you modify the node to run hidden, add a script to send matured generated btc to ... somewhere?
858 2010-10-28 23:20:35 <sneak> i stopped when i saw that the irc bootstrapping part has the ircd's v4 address HARDCODED IN
859 2010-10-28 23:20:38 <Diablo-D3> he could be running remote miners that just do something like getwork
860 2010-10-28 23:21:02 <ArtForz> yep
861 2010-10-28 23:21:28 <ArtForz> easier to just run remote miners if you already have a C&C network
862 2010-10-28 23:21:36 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: wait, is it 19?
863 2010-10-28 23:21:46 <ArtForz> erm... nonce...
864 2010-10-28 23:21:48 <theymos> sneak: A comment in net.cpp says: 'With 100,000 nodes, if senders broadcast to 1000 random nodes and receivers subscribe to 1000 random nodes, 99.995% (1 - 0.99^1000) of messages will get through.' Bitcoin only does _8_ outbound connections, though - nowhere near 1000.
865 2010-10-28 23:22:08 <ArtForz> thats for the never-implemented subscription stuff
866 2010-10-28 23:22:32 <ArtForz> 16 = first int of second half of header, so nNonce should be 19
867 2010-10-28 23:22:32 <theymos> What was the subscription stuff supposed to do?
868 2010-10-28 23:22:36 <ArtForz> no clue
869 2010-10-28 23:22:44 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: okay good
870 2010-10-28 23:24:43 <sneak> what is the .13->.14 changelog
871 2010-10-28 23:25:34 <theymos> sneak: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1528.0 . Nothing significant was excluded from this post.
872 2010-10-28 23:26:08 <sneak> oh, ho-hum
873 2010-10-28 23:26:35 <sneak> i was hoping for "a real bootstrapping system" or "integrated getwork" or "no longer takes forever to startup on osx" or something
874 2010-10-28 23:27:29 <theymos> sneak: It does have a real bootstrapping system. The seednode system would work great if the offline ones were removed.
875 2010-10-28 23:31:38 <Malouin_> Diablo-D3: did you sell other bitcoin recently ? I remember the first trade you ever made, but I don't remember if it happened after that
876 2010-10-28 23:31:55 <Diablo-D3> Malouin_: nope, only did one
877 2010-10-28 23:31:58 <Diablo-D3> Im now at 250 coins
878 2010-10-28 23:32:19 <Malouin_> sweet, if we don't compare it with art production
879 2010-10-28 23:32:28 <Diablo-D3> every 500 seems to be smallest to reduce overhead
880 2010-10-28 23:34:23 <Malouin_> btw
881 2010-10-28 23:34:25 <Malouin_> Order Date: Wednesday 27 October, 2010
882 2010-10-28 23:34:31 <Malouin_> 1 x Dual PSU 24-Pin Adapter Cable
883 2010-10-28 23:34:39 <Malouin_> on the performance pcs dot com
884 2010-10-28 23:34:51 <Malouin_> that will be perfect
885 2010-10-28 23:36:21 <ArtForz> btw
886 2010-10-28 23:36:29 <ArtForz> 7 x 2048MB Powercolor Radeon HD 5970 Eyefinity GDDR5 PCIe
887 2010-10-28 23:37:05 <sneak> ArtForz: from who are you buying that spricht Deutsch?
888 2010-10-28 23:37:07 <Malouin_> what..
889 2010-10-28 23:37:17 <Malouin_> you didn't...
890 2010-10-28 23:37:30 <ArtForz> yup, 7 more 5970s
891 2010-10-28 23:37:56 <Malouin_> I was happy with my 3 i ordered yesterday -_-
892 2010-10-28 23:38:02 <Malouin_> that gonna be insane mate
893 2010-10-28 23:38:24 <ArtForz> should get me to about 9Gh/s
894 2010-10-28 23:38:34 <Malouin_> hahaha
895 2010-10-28 23:38:59 <Malouin_> Well
896 2010-10-28 23:39:08 <Malouin_> you would be a fool for not jumping on this opportunity
897 2010-10-28 23:39:55 <Malouin_> I just hope that we will not run out of buyer
898 2010-10-28 23:40:16 <ArtForz> I don't think so
899 2010-10-28 23:40:17 <sneak> Malouin_: well, worst-cast, you can always just sell your radeons to sociopathic counterstrikers
900 2010-10-28 23:40:21 <sneak> worst-case
901 2010-10-28 23:40:24 <ArtForz> yep
902 2010-10-28 23:40:30 <sneak> and then it's just the electric bill to worry about :)
903 2010-10-28 23:40:32 <Malouin_> yeah, I mean those radeon will still sell :P
904 2010-10-28 23:40:46 <ArtForz> thats why I stopped buying 5770s, sucky resale value
905 2010-10-28 23:40:48 <sneak> ArtForz: where are you located?
906 2010-10-28 23:40:52 <ArtForz> .de
907 2010-10-28 23:40:52 <brocktice> Jesus christ people
908 2010-10-28 23:40:59 <sneak> i'm in berlin
909 2010-10-28 23:41:00 <brocktice> I only ordered one 5970
910 2010-10-28 23:41:07 <brocktice> I can see that's going to have to change soon.
911 2010-10-28 23:41:13 <ArtForz> ~ 70km north of munich
912 2010-10-28 23:41:14 <Diablo-D3> Im still using my 4850 :<
913 2010-10-28 23:41:26 <brocktice> For now I'm using my GTS 250 :)
914 2010-10-28 23:41:32 <brocktice> But I got a block last night!
915 2010-10-28 23:41:36 <Malouin_> grats :P
916 2010-10-28 23:41:47 <brocktice> according to the calculator that's pretty good luck
917 2010-10-28 23:41:54 <Malouin_> ArtForz: that gonna hurt. you got 7 new radeon, I got 3 new, and brock gonna have 1
918 2010-10-28 23:41:59 <brocktice> Maybe two
919 2010-10-28 23:42:04 <Malouin_> maybe two XD
920 2010-10-28 23:42:07 <brocktice> but yeah, one to start with
921 2010-10-28 23:42:08 <sneak> my 5970 arrives tomorrow as well
922 2010-10-28 23:42:10 <sneak> :)
923 2010-10-28 23:42:17 <Malouin_> haha thats crazy
924 2010-10-28 23:42:19 <sneak> GOOOOOOLD RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSH
925 2010-10-28 23:42:26 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: hey, whats that trick to make bitcoind start in 0 block mode?
926 2010-10-28 23:42:27 <brocktice> Like ArtForz said, at the worst I can heat my basement office all winter
927 2010-10-28 23:42:36 <Malouin_> hehehe
928 2010-10-28 23:42:42 <sneak> ArtForz: i did a trick
929 2010-10-28 23:42:51 <ArtForz> Diablo-D3: won't work with newest ver, it refuses to gen with <74k blocks
930 2010-10-28 23:42:59 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: wtf!
931 2010-10-28 23:43:04 <Diablo-D3> how the fuck am I supposed to test then
932 2010-10-28 23:43:08 <sneak> instead of buying the radeon here and a) paying MwSt on the card and b) paying the exorbitant Stromsteuer on the kWh
933 2010-10-28 23:43:18 <theymos> ArtForz: Are you still not charging transaction fees?
934 2010-10-28 23:43:22 <ArtForz> yup
935 2010-10-28 23:43:23 <sneak> i bought it in america and sent it to my friend where it's $0.1/kWh
936 2010-10-28 23:43:28 <sneak> no tax, cheap to run
937 2010-10-28 23:43:42 <theymos> ArtForz: Are you planning to keep it free permanantly?
938 2010-10-28 23:43:48 <ArtForz> yeah
939 2010-10-28 23:44:06 <Malouin_> me too ! =(