1 2010-11-18 00:00:42 <Kiba> well, it's going to be harder to move up in price as time goes on
2 2010-11-18 00:01:24 <xelister> would be nice to have bigger demand on BTC
3 2010-11-18 00:01:42 <tcatm> i think 0.20 USD/BTC is a good price
4 2010-11-18 00:01:53 <Kiba> then pledge some money for the android client
5 2010-11-18 00:02:02 <xelister> why android client would be important?
6 2010-11-18 00:02:09 <Kiba> if you want more demand for BTC so you can make more caaash
7 2010-11-18 00:02:12 <xelister> imho, lots of e-services offered over BTC are the key
8 2010-11-18 00:02:16 <Kiba> xelister: so people can physically trade
9 2010-11-18 00:02:20 <Kiba> Hand me cash, I hand you bitcoins
10 2010-11-18 00:02:23 <Kiba> and off you go
11 2010-11-18 00:02:46 <xelister> hand me cash,
12 2010-11-18 00:02:48 <xelister> *BAM* I took you wallet! lol
13 2010-11-18 00:02:52 <xelister> and android
14 2010-11-18 00:03:28 <Kiba> well, yeah sure..e-services?
15 2010-11-18 00:03:35 <Kiba> what kind of name is that?
16 2010-11-18 00:03:59 <xelister> hand me cash, and you're under arest. Government. Shut your face, know your place, no free trading for you, slace
17 2010-11-18 00:04:02 <Kiba> well, the key here is that your investment in the bitcoin economy..will yield more bitcoins services..which will increase demand.
18 2010-11-18 00:04:03 <xelister> *slave
19 2010-11-18 00:04:18 <Kiba> which will make price go up
20 2010-11-18 00:04:25 <Kiba> which make your bitcoin more valuable
21 2010-11-18 00:04:27 <xelister> what name you like more?
22 2010-11-18 00:04:45 <xelister> services offered remotelly; Especially IT alike. like development, webdesign, hosting, etc
23 2010-11-18 00:04:46 <Kiba> 1690 bitcoins is available
24 2010-11-18 00:05:12 <Kiba> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1812.0
25 2010-11-18 00:05:38 <Kiba> 422.5 @ .25 cents
26 2010-11-18 00:05:58 <Kiba> pretty good
27 2010-11-18 00:06:36 <Kiba> xelister: there are people who are willing to develop, host..and web design
28 2010-11-18 00:06:49 <Kiba> but a lack of demand for such services
29 2010-11-18 00:07:04 <xelister> hm
30 2010-11-18 00:07:23 <Kiba> well, if you're willing to develop, you could take on the existing bounty
31 2010-11-18 00:07:45 <Kiba> like the 1690 BTC bounty
32 2010-11-18 00:07:54 <xelister> for android client?
33 2010-11-18 00:07:57 <Kiba> I think another guy offers some money for a vBulletin plugin for bitcoin
34 2010-11-18 00:08:07 <xelister> but that is a full reimplementation of bitcoind + gui?
35 2010-11-18 00:08:09 <Kiba> xelister: yes, to facilitate local transaction.
36 2010-11-18 00:08:24 <Kiba> I am not looking for a full reimplementation...
37 2010-11-18 00:08:25 <xelister> over.. bluetooth?
38 2010-11-18 00:08:55 <Kiba> just some features so people can sell stuff on the streets for bitcoins
39 2010-11-18 00:09:15 <xelister> "on the streets" :)
40 2010-11-18 00:09:33 <xelister> hey homie lets hit the streets for some bitcoinz ans hit
41 2010-11-18 00:09:35 <tcatm> it's unlikely to meet someone using bitcoin in person
42 2010-11-18 00:10:02 <Kiba> perhaps.
43 2010-11-18 00:10:14 <Kiba> but this is a long term project.
44 2010-11-18 00:12:11 <xelister> once I meet in person a lady that was using bitcoin
45 2010-11-18 00:12:27 <xelister> at least that what I thought
46 2010-11-18 00:12:31 <xelister> boy, was the pimp mad at hell
47 2010-11-18 00:12:36 <xelister> as
48 2010-11-18 00:12:37 <xelister> <_<
49 2010-11-18 00:18:36 <xelister> btw, if I would have 3000 BTC to sell, would you/other buyers likelly offer price a bit better then current prices at say www.bitcoinmarket.com - or is that rather not possible?
50 2010-11-18 00:19:25 <Kiba> I don't have any money to buy 3000 BTC
51 2010-11-18 00:20:01 <xelister> did you invested into BTC before in some way?
52 2010-11-18 00:20:18 <Kiba> I invested 6 dollars and a boatload of time
53 2010-11-18 00:20:25 <Kiba> I also bet 500 dollars that it will succeeded
54 2010-11-18 00:20:49 <xelister> bet?
55 2010-11-18 00:21:05 <Kiba> xelister: yes, I made a bet with some other guy about the future of bitcoin
56 2010-11-18 00:21:14 <Kiba> bitcoin success mean that I am 500 dollars richer.
57 2010-11-18 00:21:40 <theymos> Why would you do such a bet in dollars?
58 2010-11-18 00:21:56 <Kiba> theymos: because he believes that bitcoin will fail.
59 2010-11-18 00:22:15 <xelister> :)
60 2010-11-18 00:22:24 <xelister> Kiba: what is the bect exactly?
61 2010-11-18 00:22:27 <xelister> "succeed"
62 2010-11-18 00:22:38 <Kiba> about 10,000 people will use bitcoins by 2015.
63 2010-11-18 00:23:29 <Kiba> my success is tied to bitcoin's success, yo.
64 2010-11-18 00:23:46 <xelister> ArtForz: do you remembe the cost-factor to convert cores*time into Mhash for nvidia 2xx 3xx 4xx 5xx 6xx ? it is 4250 on radeon-5770 it seems
65 2010-11-18 00:23:49 <Kiba> bitcoin community is basically a bunch of optimistic anarcho-capitalists
66 2010-11-18 00:24:01 <xelister> Kiba: woot
67 2010-11-18 00:24:05 <Kiba> the rest are naysayers
68 2010-11-18 00:24:10 <Kiba> who are anarcho-capitalists
69 2010-11-18 00:24:23 <Kiba> who don't think bitcoin will succeed
70 2010-11-18 00:24:23 <xelister> Kiba: perhaps you would like invest BTCs into my friend small bitcoin awarness campaign
71 2010-11-18 00:24:31 <xelister> actually, perhaps more people want to?
72 2010-11-18 00:24:37 <Kiba> xelister: I have several projects...
73 2010-11-18 00:24:48 <xelister> want another good one?
74 2010-11-18 00:25:03 <xelister> it will run in PL, and PL seems to be very good with opensource and privacy,
75 2010-11-18 00:25:13 <Kiba> PL is what?
76 2010-11-18 00:25:13 <xelister> check out i2p, tor, freenet, open-source, linux per country stats
77 2010-11-18 00:25:16 <xelister> Poland
78 2010-11-18 00:25:18 <Kiba> got too many projects...
79 2010-11-18 00:25:34 <xelister> afair 3rd main cryptosystems user in EU
80 2010-11-18 00:25:37 <xelister> after UK and FR
81 2010-11-18 00:25:39 <tcatm> Kiba: what are you working on?
82 2010-11-18 00:25:40 <xelister> near DE
83 2010-11-18 00:25:55 <Kiba> tcatm: the CCC campaign.
84 2010-11-18 00:26:03 <Kiba> the bitcoin galore meme contest
85 2010-11-18 00:26:10 <xelister> Kiba: url?
86 2010-11-18 00:26:15 <Kiba> bitcoin.org/smf
87 2010-11-18 00:26:59 <Kiba> and I got a new business that accept bitcoin
88 2010-11-18 00:27:16 <Kiba> in addition to my bitcoin spectulation
89 2010-11-18 00:28:21 <tcatm> what's the business?
90 2010-11-18 00:28:45 <Kiba> http:/www.soulplaying.com
91 2010-11-18 00:28:55 <Kiba> it's a clusterfuck of a web app
92 2010-11-18 00:29:06 <Kiba> but it's my first web app.
93 2010-11-18 00:30:24 <xelister> Kiba: a demo page would help
94 2010-11-18 00:30:55 <xelister> there seems to be literally no information about what it is, before I enter registration details
95 2010-11-18 00:31:34 <tcatm> reminds me of chore wars
96 2010-11-18 00:32:54 <xelister> btw anyone mines with nvidia here?
97 2010-11-18 00:33:01 <tcatm> nope
98 2010-11-18 00:34:40 <xelister> it is shaders * shader-clock / constant / 4 (if I used constant from radeon-5xxx) right?
99 2010-11-18 00:34:52 <xelister> is the constant even worse then /4 for radeons-8xxx ?
100 2010-11-18 00:34:58 <xelister> is the constant even worse then /4 for nv-8xxx ?
101 2010-11-18 00:35:44 <LobsterMan> xelister i use nvidia
102 2010-11-18 00:35:59 <xelister> seriously though ;)
103 2010-11-18 00:36:03 <LobsterMan> ya....
104 2010-11-18 00:36:10 <LobsterMan> better than nothing
105 2010-11-18 00:36:16 <xelister> LobsterMan: what card and what is your speed? Im verifing my formula for NV's speed
106 2010-11-18 00:36:27 <LobsterMan> i get about 50mhash from a gtx275
107 2010-11-18 00:36:41 <Kiba> xelister: post it here, http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1557.0
108 2010-11-18 00:37:03 <Kiba> IRC is like talking, I'll forget what we talk about yesterday
109 2010-11-18 00:38:31 <xelister> Kiba: post what there?
110 2010-11-18 00:38:41 <xelister> LobsterMan: OC'd?
111 2010-11-18 00:38:44 <LobsterMan> no, stock
112 2010-11-18 00:39:22 <xelister> my formula says 43
113 2010-11-18 00:39:28 <LobsterMan> it averages like 50-51mhash but can spike up as high almost as 53
114 2010-11-18 00:39:55 <xelister> does gtx have better instruction set then gts
115 2010-11-18 00:40:07 <Kiba> xelister: in my thread on my site
116 2010-11-18 00:40:19 <LobsterMan> xelister it's possible, it's a newer card
117 2010-11-18 00:40:22 <Kiba> err
118 2010-11-18 00:40:25 <Kiba> on the forum
119 2010-11-18 00:40:28 <LobsterMan> gtx275 was fairly high end about a year ago
120 2010-11-18 00:41:06 <xelister> LobsterMan: my compuer > devices? :)
121 2010-11-18 00:41:14 <xelister> ah you ment... ok nevermind
122 2010-11-18 00:41:45 <LobsterMan> moo: os: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional - (6.1.7600) up: 2days 4hrs 13mins 47secs cpu: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 920 @ 2.67GHz (x64) at 2668MHz (96% Load) gfx: NVIDIA NVxx 896MB res: 1920x1200 32bit 59Hz ram: 3158/6135.1MB (51.48%) [|||||-----] hdd: C: 10.95GB/297.99GB D: 23.94GB/931.51GB F: 11.14GB/1.36TB net: Marvell Yukon 88E8056 PCI-E Gigabit Ethernet
123 2010-11-18 00:41:46 <LobsterMan> Controller - 100MB/s 85.36GB In 26.76GB Out
124 2010-11-18 00:42:12 <LobsterMan> should show gfx: NVIDIA GTX275 896MB
125 2010-11-18 00:43:54 <xelister> are there at all any nvidias
126 2010-11-18 00:43:58 <xelister> that do not suck for bc mining
127 2010-11-18 00:44:05 <LobsterMan> unlikely
128 2010-11-18 00:44:10 <LobsterMan> lol
129 2010-11-18 00:48:26 <Kiba> somebody should suprise Neal Stephenson with a thing-o-matic bitcoin combo
130 2010-11-18 00:48:52 <Kiba> The Neal Stephenson Award
131 2010-11-18 01:01:12 <davex__> kiba: not sure about the anarcho-capitalist thing. there seems to be a lot of keynesian liquidity trap nonsense in the forums
132 2010-11-18 01:01:28 <davex__> although maybe those guys don't use it
133 2010-11-18 01:01:48 <Kiba> davex__: liqudity trap nonsense which are repeatly refuted
134 2010-11-18 01:01:51 <Kiba> to death
135 2010-11-18 01:02:14 <Kiba> there will alway be people who thinks bitcoin is backed by CPU computation for example
136 2010-11-18 01:02:19 <Kiba> which is a bunch of nonsense
137 2010-11-18 01:03:04 <davex__> i think that's coming from the proto-austrian "gold is money" crowd
138 2010-11-18 01:05:17 <brocktice> Kiba: Depends on your definition of "backed"
139 2010-11-18 01:05:18 <davex__> not sure why people think that money needs to be backed by something. that's credit
140 2010-11-18 01:05:38 <brocktice> I tell you what, dedicated miners are not going to sell bitcoins at a loss though
141 2010-11-18 01:06:07 <brocktice> It's also "backed" by the fact that nobody can just go out and print more out of thin air disproportionately to everyone else.
142 2010-11-18 01:06:24 <brocktice> Unlike certain fiat currencies that are being inflated 7% over 6 months.
143 2010-11-18 01:06:27 <xelister> WHAT ???
144 2010-11-18 01:06:32 <xelister> no bitcoin article at wikipedia?!
145 2010-11-18 01:06:34 <xelister> why
146 2010-11-18 01:06:38 <brocktice> xelister: baleeted
147 2010-11-18 01:06:51 <xelister> what?
148 2010-11-18 01:06:52 <brocktice> I think someone put it on the Mises wiki though
149 2010-11-18 01:07:02 <brocktice> xelister: someone didn't like it so it was baleeted
150 2010-11-18 01:07:07 <xelister> wtf is baleeted
151 2010-11-18 01:07:11 <brocktice> I have a friend at wikimedia foundation, maybe I should give her a ring
152 2010-11-18 01:07:13 <brocktice> Deleted.
153 2010-11-18 01:07:14 <davex__> homestar runner
154 2010-11-18 01:07:35 <brocktice> davex__: Oh yeah, I barely remembered myself. :)
155 2010-11-18 01:09:08 <xelister> why they delete it?
156 2010-11-18 01:09:19 <brocktice> I'm not sure, i think it's mentioned on the forums somewhere
157 2010-11-18 01:09:24 <Kiba> because it was deemed "non-notable"
158 2010-11-18 01:09:38 <Kiba> in other words, we're not famous
159 2010-11-18 01:11:34 <Kiba> we're not famous...we're not famous...we're not famous...we're FAMOUS!
160 2010-11-18 01:11:41 <brocktice> I'
161 2010-11-18 01:11:50 <brocktice> I'm sending my wikimedia friend a message about it
162 2010-11-18 01:11:55 <xelister> good brocktice
163 2010-11-18 01:11:57 <brocktice> See if we can get some advice on how to make it 'notable'
164 2010-11-18 01:12:20 <xelister> brocktice: you can also write on Freenet page that since late 2010 people are considering donations in it
165 2010-11-18 01:12:36 <xelister> and on EFF/TOR page you can add they accept donations
166 2010-11-18 01:12:44 <brocktice> I'm not going to mention the page itself unless she asks.
167 2010-11-18 01:12:56 <brocktice> Lest it look like I'm trying to get her to pull strings.
168 2010-11-18 01:14:00 <Kiba> you know somebody at wikimedia?
169 2010-11-18 01:14:06 <brocktice> Kiba: yep
170 2010-11-18 01:14:11 <brocktice> she just started working there recently though
171 2010-11-18 01:14:45 <Kiba> connections matter!
172 2010-11-18 01:14:47 <xelister> ASK HERE IF SHE ACCEPTS BITCOINS
173 2010-11-18 01:14:48 <xelister> >_>
174 2010-11-18 01:14:52 <brocktice> Oh do they ever.
175 2010-11-18 01:15:01 <Kiba> that why we are able to get bitcoins accepted at mtgox
176 2010-11-18 01:15:03 <xelister> - I accept bitcoins - that's what /she/ said
177 2010-11-18 01:15:08 <Kiba> xelister: dude....
178 2010-11-18 01:15:09 <xelister> Kiba: some ids for bitcoin memes lol
179 2010-11-18 01:15:20 <Kiba> err
180 2010-11-18 01:15:24 <Kiba> bitcoin accepted at EFF
181 2010-11-18 01:15:30 <xelister> yes, they accept
182 2010-11-18 01:15:36 <Kiba> xelister: dude, we're not big and improtant enough for wikimedia to consider yet
183 2010-11-18 01:16:34 <xelister> wikipedia should accept bitcoins
184 2010-11-18 01:16:38 <Kiba> wikimedia
185 2010-11-18 01:16:45 <xelister> well wikiwhatever
186 2010-11-18 01:16:52 <Kiba> lol
187 2010-11-18 01:27:12 <xelister> how about, if we get some bounty, I know people taht could spead the word about bitcoin in PL
188 2010-11-18 01:27:38 <xelister> poland. we are 3rd or 4th crypto-like network systems users in EU (UK,FR, DE/PL)
189 2010-11-18 01:40:15 <Kiba> xelister: post any bounty lately?
190 2010-11-18 01:42:54 <xelister> Kiba: I ment, if someone would set such a bounty, we could implement it. Or perhaps even the android thing (in late December)
191 2010-11-18 01:43:05 <xelister> Kiba: how you imaging this android thing would work?\n46066
192 2010-11-18 01:45:38 <Kiba> xelister: whatever make it easy for people to exchange goods for bitcoins on local level
193 2010-11-18 01:49:52 <dwdollar1> http://video.pbs.org/video/1646871620/
194 2010-11-18 01:50:10 <dwdollar1> Another Rockefeller scheme...
195 2010-11-18 01:51:25 <Kiba> dwdollar1: how your next generation site going?
196 2010-11-18 01:51:29 <Kiba> MTGOX is beating you!
197 2010-11-18 01:52:46 <brocktice> Price is oscillating like crazy lately between 0.22 and 0.3
198 2010-11-18 01:53:15 <davex__> i think that's just because of the wide bid-ask spread
199 2010-11-18 01:53:36 <Kiba> when there is wide bid-ask, it's best to close the gap
200 2010-11-18 01:53:43 <Kiba> you get PROFITs for doing so
201 2010-11-18 01:54:18 <davex__> how so? isn't it just a result of market illiquidity?
202 2010-11-18 01:54:39 <Kiba> it's only 0.0065
203 2010-11-18 01:54:46 <xelister> Kiba: ok I will think about this, by local level you mean people easly paying in BTCs in exchange for services or cash delivered in person?
204 2010-11-18 01:54:56 <Kiba> hai.
205 2010-11-18 01:55:28 <dwdollar1> Kiba: Still going to be awhile. I'm taking my time on it.
206 2010-11-18 01:55:55 <Kiba> there is a certain degree of...abritage opportunity...
207 2010-11-18 01:55:55 <xelister> you think it will go up even to like 0.35 or 0.40 ?
208 2010-11-18 01:55:58 <davex__> hmm, you're right. thought it was wider than that
209 2010-11-18 01:56:02 <Kiba> too much resistance
210 2010-11-18 01:56:14 <Kiba> need somebody with BIG DOLLARS
211 2010-11-18 01:56:28 <brocktice> someone call the Paul family
212 2010-11-18 01:56:41 <Kiba> the more asks piling up, the more resistance
213 2010-11-18 02:02:07 <davex__> brocktice, or call into Peter Schiff's radio show, bet he'd be interested
214 2010-11-18 02:02:28 <brocktice> davex__: Yeah probably, good call
215 2010-11-18 02:38:21 <davex__> so pretty sure porting bitcoind to android is going to be a bitch
216 2010-11-18 02:39:33 <Kiba> the objective is to make it easy for people to do local transaction
217 2010-11-18 02:39:36 <Kiba> not mine bitcoins
218 2010-11-18 02:49:23 <jgarzik> running an active bitcoin P2P client on a phone is a pointless waste of power -- and that's with coin generation switched -off-
219 2010-11-18 02:54:06 <davex__> ya seems server would be running elsewhere
220 2010-11-18 02:58:46 <doublec> an android client that uses json-rpc to talk to a running server wouldn't be too hard
221 2010-11-18 02:59:23 <doublec> but would decrease uptake of the client since people have to have the hassle of running a server somewhere
222 2010-11-18 03:02:35 <jgarzik> market opening for a secure service...
223 2010-11-18 03:02:47 <davex__> right
224 2010-11-18 03:03:09 <doublec> you could use mybitcoin's api
225 2010-11-18 03:13:49 <davex__> are transaction fees happening yet? or does that not start until coin generation is over?
226 2010-11-18 03:15:53 <nanotube> davex__: you could always feel free to include a tx fee if you want. :)
227 2010-11-18 03:16:01 <nanotube> but the current required fee schedule is listed on the wiki
228 2010-11-18 03:16:33 <davex__> oh, ok. haven't seen the wiki page
229 2010-11-18 03:22:49 <ByteCoin> jgarzik: There are circumstances when it would make sense to run a full bitcoin client on a phone.
230 2010-11-18 03:23:01 <ByteCoin> You just wouldn't run it all the time.
231 2010-11-18 03:23:31 <ByteCoin> You'd only run it when redeeming a printed bitcoin note
232 2010-11-18 03:23:52 <ByteCoin> Or when you want to make a bitcoin payment to a merchant in return for over-the-counter goods
233 2010-11-18 03:24:05 <jgarzik> ByteCoin: sure. I'm mainly thinking about mass market. If we posit an app used by many thousands of Average Joe's, I wouldn't recommend requiring it to maintain a block chain and active P2P network connection
234 2010-11-18 03:24:25 <jgarzik> just need enough to send and receive transactions securely
235 2010-11-18 03:24:51 <jgarzik> it should be possible to do that in a decentralized and private manner
236 2010-11-18 03:25:15 <ByteCoin> I don't know whether you're familiar with my balance sheets idea but that was intended to minimize the amount of data a phone would have to download to "catch up"
237 2010-11-18 03:25:43 <ByteCoin> The problem with your idea is that it requires the phone owner to trust some server
238 2010-11-18 03:26:08 <ByteCoin> The great thing about bitcoin is that it's happy in an atmosphere of mutual suspicion!
239 2010-11-18 03:26:51 <ByteCoin> I too think that the block chain maintenance thing is unsuitable for phones.
240 2010-11-18 03:26:55 <jgarzik> sure, it's a tradeoff. trusting a server would present the lowest possible power and network footprint.
241 2010-11-18 03:27:03 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin: having bitcoin run on a phone is probably not a so good idea as bitcoin uses quite a lot of cpu
242 2010-11-18 03:27:10 <MT`AwAy> (even without generating coins)
243 2010-11-18 03:27:15 <jgarzik> but it's possible to utilize sampling without trusting a server
244 2010-11-18 03:27:39 <MT`AwAy> I can imagine running bitcoin on a phone would reduce the battery lifetime significantly
245 2010-11-18 03:27:47 <ByteCoin> It doesn't have to use lots of cpu. You'd only have it running to get your transaction out on the net.
246 2010-11-18 03:28:00 <jgarzik> connect to random P2P network nodes as non-generating leaf. easy to send TX's that way. then just receive blocks until your TX is confirmed.
247 2010-11-18 03:28:06 <jgarzik> disconnect.
248 2010-11-18 03:28:08 <ByteCoin> Once that's done then it just has to wait for it to confirm
249 2010-11-18 03:28:15 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin: plus if you don't verify each transaction and keep a complete backlog (all blocks), you cannot make sure a transaction is valid or not
250 2010-11-18 03:28:49 <jgarzik> MT`AwAy: not quite true... technically with the merkle tree you just need block headers for most blocks
251 2010-11-18 03:28:55 <ByteCoin> MT'AwAy: You need to read up on "balance sheets"
252 2010-11-18 03:29:21 <ByteCoin> You just need a list of unspent transactions and to keep it updated as they're spent
253 2010-11-18 03:29:46 <MT`AwAy> anyway, just generating a receiving address on a mobile phone is probably going to take a few seconds
254 2010-11-18 03:30:29 <ByteCoin> I haven't actually done it on a mobile phone but I can do millions a second on a pc. Can't be too much harder on a phone
255 2010-11-18 03:30:43 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin: it takes ~1 sec on my PC
256 2010-11-18 03:30:47 <ByteCoin> Phone processors are quite meaty nowadays
257 2010-11-18 03:30:53 <MT`AwAy> (when I'm encoding video at the same time)
258 2010-11-18 03:31:13 <ByteCoin> I'll just say that the bitcoin implementation is not optimised
259 2010-11-18 03:32:17 <MT`AwAy> generating a bitcoin address is generating a private key, I don't know how many bits bitcoin addresses are made of, but usually private key generation is a cpu intensive operation
260 2010-11-18 03:32:59 <ByteCoin> All that is required for the private key is a 256 bit random number
261 2010-11-18 03:33:15 <MT`AwAy> so small?
262 2010-11-18 03:33:20 <ByteCoin> The public key calculation from the private key is time consuming.
263 2010-11-18 03:33:23 <ByteCoin> Not small.
264 2010-11-18 03:33:41 <ByteCoin> 256bits is considered very high security
265 2010-11-18 03:34:19 <ByteCoin> The best attacks are roughly comparable to the exhaustive search of half the number of bits
266 2010-11-18 03:35:33 <ByteCoin> jgarzik: What was that about sampling a server?
267 2010-11-18 03:35:50 <jgarzik> ByteCoin: sampling multiple P2P nodes
268 2010-11-18 03:36:46 <ByteCoin> If you're talking to multiple P2P nodes, how are you not really running a full client?
269 2010-11-18 03:37:45 <jgarzik> ByteCoin: a full client implies asking for new third party transactions as they appear, verifying them, passing them on to other nodes. Standard P2P network duties. A "lightweight" client would not need to perform such duties.
270 2010-11-18 03:38:21 <jgarzik> Sending a TX is simple: connect to any node, and offer TX. For bonus points, connect to multiple nodes and offer the TX.
271 2010-11-18 03:38:35 <MT`AwAy> oh, it uses EC keys
272 2010-11-18 03:38:53 <ByteCoin> Ok. I take your point. I guess a phone would want not to have to relay transactions. Ok
273 2010-11-18 03:38:57 <jgarzik> The only other requirement, then, is waiting for a TX confirmation. You can do that without being a full participant in P2P network, which involves sending and receiving: blocks, TX's, and addresses.
274 2010-11-18 03:39:03 <jgarzik> ByteCoin: correct
275 2010-11-18 03:39:25 <jgarzik> full client relays blocks, TX's and addresses galore. that's lots of network packets.
276 2010-11-18 03:39:45 <ByteCoin> By full client I meant getting the current block chain and then keeping abreast of new transactions without bothering to relay
277 2010-11-18 03:40:21 <jgarzik> ByteCoin: you'd only want to keep abreast of your own wallet's transactions, plus, new blocks as they are created.
278 2010-11-18 03:40:29 <ByteCoin> I should have made that clear.
279 2010-11-18 03:41:04 <ByteCoin> Yes jgarzik. You can see how that's very nearly a full client.
280 2010-11-18 03:41:11 <Kiba> http://www.lurkmore.com/w/images/6/62/Multi-Track_Drifting!.png
281 2010-11-18 03:41:13 <Kiba> ROFL
282 2010-11-18 03:42:10 <ByteCoin> jgarzik: You also need to know about all other transactions to make sure that someone paying you isn't double spending the coins.
283 2010-11-18 03:42:56 <ByteCoin> But I guess it's not essential as you have to wait until the transaction is in a block anyway
284 2010-11-18 03:43:02 <ByteCoin> Preferrably a few blocks down
285 2010-11-18 03:43:07 <jgarzik> ByteCoin: yeah, a block will tell you that
286 2010-11-18 03:43:41 <davex__> how is it determined how many transactions get in a block?
287 2010-11-18 03:44:00 <MT`AwAy> davex__: by the number of pending transaction when a block is generated
288 2010-11-18 03:44:03 <ByteCoin> Currently there are so few transactions they all get into the current block
289 2010-11-18 03:44:12 <MT`AwAy> (there's a size limit too)
290 2010-11-18 03:44:37 <MT`AwAy> (if the block is getting too big, transactions without fees are kept for later)
291 2010-11-18 03:44:54 <davex__> so if the network got busy enough, might not keep up with block generation? or is difficulty reduced?
292 2010-11-18 03:45:23 <ByteCoin> If it got busy enough, you'd have to incude fees.
293 2010-11-18 03:45:24 <davex__> (ie lots of transactions)
294 2010-11-18 03:45:27 <MT`AwAy> davex__: you'll have to pay fees
295 2010-11-18 03:46:18 <MT`AwAy> if you don't, your transaction will have to wait for load to be back to normal
296 2010-11-18 03:46:27 <ByteCoin> Note that if you make an unfeed transaction and then it gets very busy for a long time you would potentially have to wait until the flood stopped before you'd get it accepted.
297 2010-11-18 03:46:39 <MT`AwAy> btw if the network load gets higher, it'll be possible to make a new bitcoin version with bigger block limit
298 2010-11-18 03:46:45 <ByteCoin> In the meantime those coins are tied up
299 2010-11-18 03:47:05 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin: usually a flood won't pay fees, so if you include a 0.01 fee you'll be handled in priority
300 2010-11-18 03:47:31 <ByteCoin> You only know you should have paid a fee after the flood starts!
301 2010-11-18 03:47:41 <MT`AwAy> then it's too bad for you :)
302 2010-11-18 03:47:52 <davex__> MT`AwAy, will existing clients assume the block has been solved, and try to solve the next?
303 2010-11-18 03:48:13 <ByteCoin> Not sure what you mean davex
304 2010-11-18 03:48:16 <MT`AwAy> davex__: I think they do until 4x the size or something
305 2010-11-18 03:48:18 <davex__> er, no... actually i'm confusd.
306 2010-11-18 03:48:33 <MT`AwAy> davex__: read the wiki :)
307 2010-11-18 03:48:43 <davex__> trying to see the implications for existing clients if the block size is increased in a new client
308 2010-11-18 03:49:47 <ByteCoin> I believe anything the miners inflict on the network is accepted without real questions. So if the miners increase the block size, I think it just gets bigger!
309 2010-11-18 03:50:14 <ByteCoin> If the miners don't change, nothing changes
310 2010-11-18 03:50:30 <jgarzik> network is essentially flood-fill, so more transactions and larger blocks means exponentially more byte-shoving :)
311 2010-11-18 03:51:01 <ByteCoin> Exponentially? Doubt it....
312 2010-11-18 03:51:42 <ByteCoin> Why wouldn't network traffic scale linearly with trasnactions
313 2010-11-18 04:08:13 <nanotube> because every tx is sent to every client
314 2010-11-18 04:08:57 <nanotube> guess that's still linear, only the factor is large (number of clients) ... :)
315 2010-11-18 04:12:52 <jgarzik> but in general, if bitcoin is popular, I don't think every phone should be processing paypal-levels of transactions.
316 2010-11-18 04:13:09 <nanotube> hehe yes, i thought of mentioning that possibility... but figured it was a side point. :)
317 2010-11-18 04:13:20 <nanotube> indeed. it wouldn't scale on phones.
318 2010-11-18 04:24:50 <FreeMoney> wont phones have huge hard drives in like one year or something? Can't you get a terabyte SD card already?
319 2010-11-18 04:25:01 <xelister> tarabyte sd? wtf
320 2010-11-18 04:25:37 <xelister> well perhaps in few years... like 5
321 2010-11-18 04:25:50 <FreeMoney> okay, not yet apparently
322 2010-11-18 04:26:03 <FreeMoney> it must have been a dream...
323 2010-11-18 04:26:25 <jgarzik> FreeMoney: you IMO shouldn't need that, just to pay with bitcoins.
324 2010-11-18 04:26:46 <FreeMoney> right
325 2010-11-18 04:26:59 <FreeMoney> you communicate with a trusted party though?
326 2010-11-18 04:27:06 <FreeMoney> or you can pay independantly?
327 2010-11-18 04:27:15 <FreeMoney> oh, you can pay of course, right?
328 2010-11-18 04:27:52 <MT`AwAy> we could have an assisting server
329 2010-11-18 04:28:17 <MT`AwAy> without reducing the security
330 2010-11-18 04:28:21 <MT`AwAy> ie. the assisting server would be the one reading blocks, and providing the phone with its transactions, while the phone would only get block headers
331 2010-11-18 04:29:20 <MT`AwAy> as long as the server knows the phone's pub keys, it'll be fine
332 2010-11-18 04:29:31 <nanotube> ;;bc,stats
333 2010-11-18 04:29:32 <gribble> Current Blocks: 92574 | Current Difficulty: 4536.35372328 | Next Difficulty At Block: 92736 | Next Difficulty In: 162 blocks | Next Difficulty Estimate: 6695.08134407
334 2010-11-18 04:29:37 <nanotube> bitbot replacement --^ :)
335 2010-11-18 04:29:58 <nanotube> thanks to theymos for providing the web feed of the data.
336 2010-11-18 04:30:24 <MT`AwAy> (and for example for iphones, the server could use apple's push protocol to provide notification once payment is confirmed)
337 2010-11-18 04:30:56 <FreeMoney> sounds very doable
338 2010-11-18 04:32:20 <MT`AwAy> server provides transaction content + hash + block number, phone client verifies in its block headers if the transaction hash is present
339 2010-11-18 04:32:47 <MT`AwAy> (we could have the server provide the per block transaction hash list too)
340 2010-11-18 04:34:07 <MT`AwAy> I can see no major difficulty to make this happen
341 2010-11-18 04:41:43 <OneFixt_> Is there a way to check whether you have blocks waiting for maturation when using bitcoind?
342 2010-11-18 04:48:43 <jgarzik> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1822.0
343 2010-11-18 04:48:54 <jgarzik> "bitcoin mobile phone specification?"
344 2010-11-18 04:54:16 <OneFixt_> With m0m's client, what's the lowest that -f can be set to?
345 2010-11-18 04:58:08 <xelister> OneFixt_: -f 1 I think
346 2010-11-18 04:58:32 <xelister> it really doesnt matter 1 or 5 or 10 unless you run lots of video/games
347 2010-11-18 04:58:58 <xelister> OneFixt_: that is good question about checking if have waiting; if you find out then please /pm me
348 2010-11-18 04:59:16 <xelister> OneFixt_: the m0m's client print outs information when block is generated, on the console it stays
349 2010-11-18 05:04:40 <OneFixt_> xelister: Thanks, I'll try with 1.
350 2010-11-18 05:06:15 <OneFixt_> xelister: I just wanted to make sure that the block was actually accepted after the client printed it.
351 2010-11-18 05:27:21 <ByteCoin> jgarzik: Just read your phone spec. I won't comment on it yet as I don't want to flood the forum with my opinion.
352 2010-11-18 05:27:35 <ByteCoin> I like what you've written though...
353 2010-11-18 05:27:49 <ByteCoin> I hope it gets a thorough consideration
354 2010-11-18 05:28:26 <ByteCoin> I might look at the amount of inevietable network traffic for various plausible use-cases.
355 2010-11-18 05:43:47 <Kiba> back
356 2010-11-18 05:43:52 <Kiba> cause I can't sleep
357 2010-11-18 05:47:27 <xelister> buy cheap pills for 99.99 BTC
358 2010-11-18 05:47:33 <xelister> it's not illegal or anything >_>
359 2010-11-18 05:47:55 <xelister> hey dea if you are tapping into this, I also killed JFK
360 2010-11-18 05:49:16 <xelister> what are main benefits though on using BC on gadges, so I face-to-face with seller/buyer? We loose anonimity and comfortable internet-transations
361 2010-11-18 05:49:33 <xelister> for ByteCoin's
362 2010-11-18 05:50:39 <Kiba> you can do cash transaction
363 2010-11-18 05:51:04 <xelister> jgarzik: for large scale I wonder if distribute-store systems wouldnt actually be interesting alternative like freenet or similar design
364 2010-11-18 05:51:29 <xelister> since FN works awesomly well if few people are downloading same stuff (list of all transations)
365 2010-11-18 05:51:48 <xelister> actually it gets FASTER as there is more traffic and as same data is downloaded/updated by everyone, not slower
366 2010-11-18 05:53:00 <Kiba> cash transaction, don't have to wait 5 days for shipping, etc
367 2010-11-18 05:53:14 <xelister> <xelister> jgarzik: for large scale I wonder if distribute-store systems wouldnt actually be interesting alternative like freenet or similar design since FN works awesomly well if few people are downloading same stuff (list of all transations) ;actually it gets FASTER as there is more traffic and as same data is downloaded/updated by everyone, not slower
368 2010-11-18 05:55:26 <xelister> Kiba: ok, but there is already something really good for cash transactions. Cash! :)
369 2010-11-18 05:55:52 <xelister> unless you dont trust US$ as the value and find BTC more stable in the long run? then it could be advanrtage
370 2010-11-18 06:01:15 <Kiba> xelister: paypal sucks. everything sucks
371 2010-11-18 06:01:17 <Kiba> except cash
372 2010-11-18 06:01:20 <Kiba> cash and bitcoins exchange
373 2010-11-18 06:01:25 <Kiba> real g00d
374 2010-11-18 06:02:21 <jgarzik> xelister: there's something far better than freenet for that, bittorrent
375 2010-11-18 06:04:03 <xelister> jgarzik: excet FN is really anonymous while bittorent... we know ;)
376 2010-11-18 06:05:00 <xelister> none of systems is perect if someone really tries to "get you" but FN comes closest and is imho half year away from being totally anonymous even from powerfull attacker
377 2010-11-18 06:10:50 <xelister> and for preformance, perhaps.. bittorent protocol with small modification (to quickly distribute linked updated of given file/site)
378 2010-11-18 06:26:08 <nathan7> :o
379 2010-11-18 06:29:32 <Kiba> but
380 2010-11-18 06:29:37 <Kiba> I am hamlizing it first
381 2010-11-18 07:53:15 <joe_1> why do people put # sign in a lot of twitter posts
382 2010-11-18 08:09:17 <jpi> Where can I find Bitcoin version history?
383 2010-11-18 08:17:03 <joe_1> jpi look at http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/
384 2010-11-18 08:18:38 <jpi> joe_1: I mean documentation.
385 2010-11-18 08:21:51 <joe_1> I am not sure where the formal release notes documentation is located
386 2010-11-18 08:22:43 <joe_1> i will forward your request onto the forum.
387 2010-11-18 08:23:11 <joe_1> If you expand the bitcoin-0.1.x folders in the link i provided, then click the notepad to the right of each rar file, release notes are available for each of those versions. but this stops after the 0.1 series of releases
388 2010-11-18 08:23:17 <jpi> joe_1: Thanks. It would be great to have it online.
389 2010-11-18 08:25:10 <jpi> joe_1: One single file for release notes is what I am looking for.
390 2010-11-18 08:37:30 <joe_1> ok
391 2010-11-18 08:41:21 <joe_1> I have posted your request at http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1828.0 so hopefully in a couple days there will be an answer in that topic
392 2010-11-18 08:52:48 <jpi> joe_1: Thanks :)
393 2010-11-18 09:07:51 <davout> hi all
394 2010-11-18 09:08:18 <davout> i have an overclocking related question
395 2010-11-18 09:08:36 <davout> is it important to overclock memory frequency as long as gpu frequency ?
396 2010-11-18 09:08:54 <davout> i overclocked my radeon 5970 and got a nice speed increase,
397 2010-11-18 09:09:04 <davout> wondering if i should overclock memory too
398 2010-11-18 09:11:38 <dsg> davout: You'll see practically no difference.
399 2010-11-18 09:12:40 <davout> dsg: ok, thank you
400 2010-11-18 09:13:03 <davout> dsg: i'll give it a shot anyway but i heard nvram cooling on 5970's wasn't that great
401 2010-11-18 09:13:35 <davout> also, is temperature the limiting factor for GPU overclocking ?
402 2010-11-18 09:13:58 <davout> like, could i go further if i put my box in a colder room ? :)
403 2010-11-18 09:14:48 <Diablo-D3> not temp
404 2010-11-18 09:14:52 <Diablo-D3> not directly anyhow
405 2010-11-18 09:15:04 <Diablo-D3> OC requires voltage boosting once you get past a certain point
406 2010-11-18 09:15:13 <Diablo-D3> you'll just end up frying your voltage regulators
407 2010-11-18 09:22:23 <davout> ok, so if i want to go further i need to boost voltage but doing that i risk frying the regulators
408 2010-11-18 09:22:54 <davout> if thats the case i think i'll stick with aticonfig for now =)
409 2010-11-18 09:23:03 <ArtForz> yup
410 2010-11-18 09:23:11 <ArtForz> VRMs on 5970 run hot as hell as is
411 2010-11-18 09:23:18 <davout> yea i read that
412 2010-11-18 09:23:44 <davout> artforz did you boost voltage a lot on your 5970's ?
413 2010-11-18 09:23:57 <ArtForz> 1.15V
414 2010-11-18 09:24:13 <davout> what's the original value ?
415 2010-11-18 09:24:17 <ArtForz> 1.05V
416 2010-11-18 09:24:24 <ArtForz> and without crazy airflow VRMs hit 120???C and the card throttles
417 2010-11-18 09:24:35 <davout> like freezes ?
418 2010-11-18 09:24:48 <ArtForz> no, throttles, to 550MHz core clock
419 2010-11-18 09:24:53 <davout> ooh
420 2010-11-18 09:24:59 <davout> sorry, english not first language
421 2010-11-18 09:25:12 <ArtForz> same here :P
422 2010-11-18 09:25:16 <davout> =)
423 2010-11-18 09:25:22 <davout> whats your first language ?
424 2010-11-18 09:25:24 <davout> mine fr
425 2010-11-18 09:25:30 <ArtForz> .de
426 2010-11-18 09:25:35 <davout> what speed do you run your gpus at ?
427 2010-11-18 09:25:43 <ArtForz> 910MHz core
428 2010-11-18 09:25:51 <davout> i have one that sustains 840, the other one 855
429 2010-11-18 09:26:17 <ArtForz> except for one core out of 12 5970s, that one wont go > 890 @ 1.15V
430 2010-11-18 09:26:40 <davout> ok, i'll try your voltage once i get a room with airconditioning
431 2010-11-18 09:27:06 <davout> i'm pretty luck, the it guy at my work will let me put my box in the server room, which is nicely cooled
432 2010-11-18 09:27:08 <jpi> How to use gpu in bitcoing?
433 2010-11-18 09:27:18 <davout> but he won't give me a network cable ><
434 2010-11-18 09:27:30 <davout> guess i'll have to crack some wep network
435 2010-11-18 09:27:42 <ArtForz> my cards sit with 2 slots spacing in between, with one of these for each pair of cards: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835185054
436 2010-11-18 09:27:47 <davout> jpi: what's your graphic card ?
437 2010-11-18 09:28:05 <jpi> davout: Nvidia GeForce GTX 260
438 2010-11-18 09:28:31 <ArtForz> hmmm... GTX260 ...
439 2010-11-18 09:28:32 <davout> jpi: i'm unsure on how to get that kind of card working
440 2010-11-18 09:28:52 <davout> jpi: basically you'll wan't a patched bitcoin client that allows requests for gpu work
441 2010-11-18 09:29:30 <davout> you should check out the forums, but it seems like mining on nvidia isn't very efficient
442 2010-11-18 09:29:40 <jpi> ok
443 2010-11-18 09:30:06 <davout> for an ati card you need to compile a patched client
444 2010-11-18 09:30:12 <davout> compile the ati sdk
445 2010-11-18 09:30:44 <davout> get m0mchils client, and feed it the compiled ati lib, should be along these lines for nvidia too
446 2010-11-18 09:30:55 <ArtForz> yea, for nv I think you need nvidias openCL driver/sdk
447 2010-11-18 09:31:02 <jpi> Davout: Maybe I'll stay with normal client.
448 2010-11-18 09:31:19 <jpi> It is running with 2 of 4 cores anyway.
449 2010-11-18 09:31:52 <davout> you should be able to run it on all cores
450 2010-11-18 09:31:54 <ArtForz> GTX260 should get 35-40Mh/s @ 190W ... meh
451 2010-11-18 09:32:26 <jpi> davout: Cpu fan gets crazy.
452 2010-11-18 09:32:31 <jpi> with 4 cores
453 2010-11-18 09:32:59 <davout> i see
454 2010-11-18 09:33:14 <davout> i started mining two months ago on a hosted 8 core server
455 2010-11-18 09:33:27 <jpi> How long it takes to make my first coin with 2300 h/s?
456 2010-11-18 09:33:42 <jpi> kh/s
457 2010-11-18 09:33:43 <davout> 2 weeks ago, people from the datacenter opened a ticket about how they needed to check the servers cooling xD
458 2010-11-18 09:33:53 <ArtForz> http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php
459 2010-11-18 09:34:01 <davout> http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php
460 2010-11-18 09:34:33 <davout> it will give you oyur statistic likelihood of generating one after a certain amount of time
461 2010-11-18 09:34:38 <ArtForz> yep
462 2010-11-18 09:34:50 <ArtForz> avg = average time to find a block
463 2010-11-18 09:34:55 <jpi> davout: ok :) I need more cpu's.
464 2010-11-18 09:34:57 <davout> however, every generated hash is statistically independent
465 2010-11-18 09:35:01 <davout> cpu's suck
466 2010-11-18 09:35:08 <ArtForz> 50% = time span after which you have a 50% chance of having found 1+ blocks
467 2010-11-18 09:35:25 <ArtForz> 95% time ... same thing with a 95% chance
468 2010-11-18 09:35:34 <davout> if you're miraculously lucky you could generate a block for each hash
469 2010-11-18 09:35:47 <davout> i love the parallel universe theory
470 2010-11-18 09:35:53 <ArtForz> yeah
471 2010-11-18 09:35:54 <jpi> Davout: In that case I should start playing lotto.
472 2010-11-18 09:36:10 <ArtForz> and in another parallel universe you'll never find a single hash :P
473 2010-11-18 09:36:11 <davout> maybe in one of these universes every of my hashes gets me a block XD
474 2010-11-18 09:36:24 <ArtForz> and it's nearly equally unlikely
475 2010-11-18 09:36:55 <davout> never generating a block is impossible if you mine for an infintely long amount of time
476 2010-11-18 09:37:03 <davout> maybe i should drop gpu mining
477 2010-11-18 09:37:17 <ArtForz> yes
478 2010-11-18 09:37:22 <davout> and adopt an infinity of monkeys
479 2010-11-18 09:37:31 <ArtForz> infinities are funny
480 2010-11-18 09:38:19 <ArtForz> btw, 99.99% time is roughly triple 95% time
481 2010-11-18 09:38:55 <jpi> ArtForz: 0,999... = 1
482 2010-11-18 09:38:58 <ArtForz> no
483 2010-11-18 09:39:02 <ArtForz> well, yes
484 2010-11-18 09:39:09 <ArtForz> but I mean 99.99%
485 2010-11-18 09:39:09 <davout> actually yes
486 2010-11-18 09:39:22 <davout> i got my share of fun trolling 4chan with this statement
487 2010-11-18 09:39:41 <ArtForz> actually 3x 95% time = 99.9875% time