1 2010-12-05 00:00:17 <ArtForz> we really only need IRC for initial bootstrapping, any other way of getting a somewhat current list of (addr, last seen) would work as well
  2 2010-12-05 00:02:56 <bencoder> we're not on freenode anymore though are we? freenode is used by the really old clients, which I don't think will be generating valid blocks anymore if they're still generating
  3 2010-12-05 00:03:06 <ArtForz> yep
  4 2010-12-05 00:03:06 <theymos> Right.
  5 2010-12-05 00:05:07 <lolcat> Can my computer make bitcoins?
  6 2010-12-05 00:05:10 <Kiba> can't believe they're still on
  7 2010-12-05 00:05:23 <Kiba> lolcat: only if you wait long enough
  8 2010-12-05 00:05:27 <Kiba> you can forgetitaboutit
  9 2010-12-05 00:06:05 <bencoder> or join the pooled miner
 10 2010-12-05 00:06:21 <lolcat> How much is a coin worth?
 11 2010-12-05 00:06:31 <Kiba> it's determined by supply and demand.
 12 2010-12-05 00:06:38 <Kiba> it used to be worth around 0.06
 13 2010-12-05 00:06:41 <genjix> http://bitcoinwatch.com/
 14 2010-12-05 00:06:57 <[Noodles]> used to be? ^.^
 15 2010-12-05 00:07:18 <Kiba> seem like we dropped to 0.20 now
 16 2010-12-05 00:07:35 <Kiba> the ask orders will be extremely difficult to overcome
 17 2010-12-05 00:08:01 <lolcat> So I can buy bitcoins and sell at a higher price?
 18 2010-12-05 00:08:17 <[Noodles]> you sure can, if someone buys 'em
 19 2010-12-05 00:08:58 <genjix> there's a buy/sell exchange on #bitcoin-otc (read topic) and mtgox.com
 20 2010-12-05 00:09:13 <lolcat> How long untill my bitcoin is made?
 21 2010-12-05 00:09:30 <[Noodles]> depends on your CPU/GPU processing power
 22 2010-12-05 00:09:38 <genjix> forget it. i've never made one.
 23 2010-12-05 00:09:44 <genjix> i earned all of mine.
 24 2010-12-05 00:09:44 <[Noodles]> from 1day to a year or 2
 25 2010-12-05 00:10:35 <lolcat> 1day on a laptop?
 26 2010-12-05 00:10:36 <theymos> You could generate maybe 0.25 per week if you join the pooled mining group.
 27 2010-12-05 00:10:39 <[Noodles]> if you've got a decent gaming machine, give it a try, else just buy some
 28 2010-12-05 00:10:53 <genjix> its just a way of gradually introducing the currency to market
 29 2010-12-05 00:10:55 <[Noodles]> or join the pool for a few coins a wekk/month
 30 2010-12-05 00:11:03 <[Noodles]> *week
 31 2010-12-05 00:11:09 <genjix> or try this: http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/
 32 2010-12-05 00:12:40 <lolcat> So then I'd earn 5 cent a day?
 33 2010-12-05 00:13:35 <lolcat> And I tried it, but there is no bitcoin here :(
 34 2010-12-05 00:13:50 <[Noodles]> by doing what? generating? you dont generate 1coin, it's 50coins, but you might not get them in a day, but within days, or weeks
 35 2010-12-05 00:14:02 <Kiba> lolcat: don't expect to get easy money
 36 2010-12-05 00:14:59 <lolcat> can I make my own pool?
 37 2010-12-05 00:15:15 <[Noodles]> you could, but it wouldnt make much sense
 38 2010-12-05 00:15:34 <lolcat> If I have shitloads of computers
 39 2010-12-05 00:16:02 <[Noodles]> well, if its just a shitload of CPUs, it wont help ya that much
 40 2010-12-05 00:16:37 <lolcat> But I am confused, this can be used for tax-evasion and money laundering. Rigth?
 41 2010-12-05 00:16:42 <nanotube> lolcat: it's all about how many hashes per second you can try.
 42 2010-12-05 00:16:57 <nanotube> you can use the average time calculator. e.g., if you have 500 khps:
 43 2010-12-05 00:16:59 <nanotube> ;;bc,calc 500
 44 2010-12-05 00:17:01 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 500 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 2 years, 10 weeks, 3 days, 3 hours, 19 minutes, and 28 seconds
 45 2010-12-05 00:17:20 <genjix> lolcat: fuck yeah thats why its so cool :)
 46 2010-12-05 00:17:28 <[Noodles]> lol
 47 2010-12-05 00:17:36 <lolcat> Does bitcoin support a powerpc cpu?
 48 2010-12-05 00:17:48 <Kiba> I worked my butt for 25 cents this week!
 49 2010-12-05 00:17:49 <Kiba> wee!
 50 2010-12-05 00:17:50 <genjix> government cant do shit
 51 2010-12-05 00:17:50 <lolcat> I heard the ps3 is good at hashing
 52 2010-12-05 00:17:51 <gribble> Bitcoin website: http://bitcoin.org/
 53 2010-12-05 00:17:51 <nanotube> lolcat: i suggest you read some about bitcoin on the ,,website and the ,,wiki
 54 2010-12-05 00:17:52 <gribble> Bitcoin wiki: http://bitcoin.org/wiki/
 55 2010-12-05 00:17:55 <Kiba> butt off*
 56 2010-12-05 00:18:07 <genjix> http://bitcoinme.com
 57 2010-12-05 00:18:50 <ArtForz> PS3 sucks for mining
 58 2010-12-05 00:18:53 <lolcat> Just one confusing question, what happens if the program crashes? Do I loose my bitcoins?
 59 2010-12-05 00:19:17 <nanotube> lolcat: no. but it's a good idea to keep a backup of your wallet.
 60 2010-12-05 00:19:25 <Kiba> and encrypt it!
 61 2010-12-05 00:19:38 <Kiba> but also remember your password
 62 2010-12-05 00:20:22 <ArtForz> 7 128-bit SPEs @ 3.2GHz = about 21.6Mh/s peak
 63 2010-12-05 00:20:49 <lolcat> How do I see my Mh/s?
 64 2010-12-05 00:21:12 <Kiba> at da bottom of your client
 65 2010-12-05 00:21:26 <lolcat> It just says a bunch of blocks and generating
 66 2010-12-05 00:21:53 <Kiba> next go generating should be your hasrate, no?
 67 2010-12-05 00:22:02 <Kiba> or was it left?
 68 2010-12-05 00:22:38 <theymos> Far left of the client when generating is enabled.
 69 2010-12-05 00:22:40 <ArtForz> hashrate should be on far left, remember generation is stopped while it's still downloading the block chain
 70 2010-12-05 00:22:53 <ArtForz> ;;bc,blocks
 71 2010-12-05 00:22:54 <gribble> 95611
 72 2010-12-05 00:22:58 <lolcat> How big is the block chain?
 73 2010-12-05 00:22:59 <lolcat> oh
 74 2010-12-05 00:23:03 <lolcat> I am haf way there
 75 2010-12-05 00:23:25 <lolcat> So if I am lucky I have 50 bitcoins tomorrow?
 76 2010-12-05 00:23:30 <fedorared> Extremely
 77 2010-12-05 00:23:41 <[Noodles]> super-uber-lucky
 78 2010-12-05 00:23:59 <theymos> Pretty much no chance. You're lucky if your laptop will have 1000 khps.
 79 2010-12-05 00:24:02 <theymos> ;;bc,calc 1000
 80 2010-12-05 00:24:03 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 1 year, 5 weeks, 1 day, 13 hours, 39 minutes, and 44 seconds
 81 2010-12-05 00:24:17 <ArtForz> so a meager HD5770 real world is 7x as fast as a PS3 theoretical peak ...
 82 2010-12-05 00:24:39 <lolcat> So a high end graphic card will do bether?
 83 2010-12-05 00:24:52 <ArtForz> yup
 84 2010-12-05 00:25:01 <lolcat> I am considering to buy a i7 950, with some nvidida card and 8gb ram
 85 2010-12-05 00:25:04 <fedorared> With the various GPU clients floating around
 86 2010-12-05 00:25:10 <lolcat> Will that improve my chances?
 87 2010-12-05 00:25:36 <[Noodles]> forget about nvidia, get the biggest badass ATI card you can get instead
 88 2010-12-05 00:26:06 <AAA_awright> Sudden change in topic: If I wanted to prove that P includes problems not in NP, would all it take is proving that there is at least one function that is in P that is also not in NP?
 89 2010-12-05 00:26:17 <AAA_awright> well of course
 90 2010-12-05 00:26:33 <genjix> thats simple logic :p
 91 2010-12-05 00:27:50 <AAA_awright> So how does SHA256 play in there?
 92 2010-12-05 00:29:23 <AAA_awright> BItcoin is assuming (among other cryptography algroithms) that you can verify there is an n where SHA1(n)<=D, but no inverseSHA1(n) for some n<=D
 93 2010-12-05 00:29:59 <AAA_awright> Switching to SHA1 just because it's two fewer characters to type
 94 2010-12-05 00:30:27 <AAA_awright> Where both SHA1 and inverseSHA1 are functions that return in polynomial time
 95 2010-12-05 00:32:18 <theymos> Information is removed, so it'll always be impossible to completely reconstruct data from just a hash.
 96 2010-12-05 00:32:42 <AAA_awright> Right
 97 2010-12-05 00:33:01 <AAA_awright> Isn't that enough to prove P!=NP or am I completely missing something here (I have to be)
 98 2010-12-05 00:33:36 <theymos> That's not an NP problem.
 99 2010-12-05 00:34:45 <theymos> As I understand it, an NP problem is solved easily by computers that always guess correctly. But SHA-256 can't be reversed even by such a computer.
100 2010-12-05 00:34:47 <AAA_awright> Finding the inverse is?
101 2010-12-05 00:37:08 <lolcat> I think I want to start trading bitcoins to become rich
102 2010-12-05 00:37:33 <Kiba> oh
103 2010-12-05 00:37:40 <Kiba> you think this is some sort of get-rich scheme
104 2010-12-05 00:38:06 <ArtForz> tanstaafl
105 2010-12-05 00:38:19 <Kiba> no such thing as a free lunch, lolcat
106 2010-12-05 00:38:35 <theymos> Bitcoin's SHA-256 proof-of-work is an NP problem: an NP computer can guess which input data will get which output data.
107 2010-12-05 00:38:43 <lolcat> Kiba: No, but the prices fluctuates, so I can invest, wait and sell.
108 2010-12-05 00:38:54 <Kiba> perhaps.
109 2010-12-05 00:39:05 <Kiba> it's gamlbing, simple.
110 2010-12-05 00:39:05 <lolcat> It should be just like shares
111 2010-12-05 00:39:21 <Kiba> you want to gamble.
112 2010-12-05 00:39:23 <Kiba> that's fine.
113 2010-12-05 00:39:23 <lolcat> No, I can follow the graphs, and make out a trend
114 2010-12-05 00:39:32 <Kiba> it's still gambling
115 2010-12-05 00:39:41 <Kiba> don't be so concieted that you think you can beat the market
116 2010-12-05 00:39:55 <lolcat> Yes, probably not the safest investment I can make, but it can still be fun
117 2010-12-05 00:40:03 <ArtForz> of course it's gambling, like most high-risk investments
118 2010-12-05 00:40:07 <lolcat> I dont have to invest a lot either
119 2010-12-05 00:40:22 <lolcat> 10USD and I have some bitcoins to play with
120 2010-12-05 00:40:25 <AAA_awright> theymos: And because there's of a loss of information have we proved it's not a P problem?
121 2010-12-05 00:40:26 <Kiba> lolcat: as long as you only invest in what you can afford to lose, you'll be fine.
122 2010-12-05 00:40:48 <theymos> I don't know.
123 2010-12-05 00:40:55 <AAA_awright> And it does terminate within the correct domain so that's not an issue
124 2010-12-05 00:41:05 <lolcat> I know, if I start out SMALL, then I can enjoy the fluctuations
125 2010-12-05 00:42:28 <theymos> lolcat: BTC trading is nice because you know with reasonably high certainty that BTC will eventually go up in value. The market knows this, too, but they may be more pessimistic than you are.
126 2010-12-05 00:42:51 <lolcat> I see it has dropped 30% in the last 4 houres
127 2010-12-05 00:42:58 <lolcat> Wich is interessting...
128 2010-12-05 00:43:38 <theymos> I would buy now if I had any money in MtGox.
129 2010-12-05 00:44:09 <theymos> It seems to me that fundamentals point upwards.
130 2010-12-05 00:44:19 <theymos> (In the near-term as well as the long-term.)
131 2010-12-05 00:44:31 <Kiba> we now have trading in yens
132 2010-12-05 00:45:08 <Kiba> but only mtgox is liquid
133 2010-12-05 00:45:58 <lolcat> What is that liberty reserve thing?
134 2010-12-05 00:46:32 <Kiba> some other commodity that is pegged to the dollar
135 2010-12-05 00:46:41 <theymos> It's a private currency, sort of like Bitcoin, but entirely centralized. You generally need to use a wire transfer to get money into it.
136 2010-12-05 00:47:04 <Kiba> theymos: and they have more google traffic than bitcoin...
137 2010-12-05 00:47:21 <dabbish1> ok, i just stumbled across this today. and all i can say is wow
138 2010-12-05 00:47:31 <dabbish1> this japanese guy, what a genius
139 2010-12-05 00:47:41 <lolcat> So I can't paypal to get bitcoins?
140 2010-12-05 00:47:50 <Kiba> you can
141 2010-12-05 00:47:57 <lolcat> Where?
142 2010-12-05 00:47:59 <theymos> lolcat: You can on #bitcoin-otc . I'll trade small amounts with you.
143 2010-12-05 00:48:00 <Kiba> but nobody like paypal
144 2010-12-05 00:48:17 <Kiba> I think, everybody hate paypal now
145 2010-12-05 00:48:44 <dabbish1> yeah i came here because the wikileaks thing and paypal
146 2010-12-05 00:49:14 <dabbish1> so most people here think that bitcoins can be a serious alternative to the future world currency?
147 2010-12-05 00:49:41 <fedorared> Many do.
148 2010-12-05 00:49:42 <Kiba> dabbish1: well, nobody knows who Satoshi is.
149 2010-12-05 00:49:44 <bencoder> s/think/hope
150 2010-12-05 00:49:49 <Kiba> except that he's genuis for inventing bitcoin
151 2010-12-05 00:49:50 <[Noodles]> it is already, it's just that most people don't know yet
152 2010-12-05 00:50:03 <dabbish1> Kiba: well nobody knew who Assange was a few years ago either
153 2010-12-05 00:50:22 <Kiba> dabbish1: but we really really really really don't know who Satoshi is
154 2010-12-05 00:50:23 <Kiba> no face
155 2010-12-05 00:50:25 <Kiba> no picture
156 2010-12-05 00:50:31 <dabbish1> oh
157 2010-12-05 00:50:34 <Kiba> almost nothing
158 2010-12-05 00:50:41 <joe_1> oh well
159 2010-12-05 00:50:44 <ArtForz> "let the idea speak for itself"
160 2010-12-05 00:50:45 <dabbish1> well he is still an active developer right?
161 2010-12-05 00:50:51 <bencoder> yep
162 2010-12-05 00:50:54 <lolcat> I love the idea of a privatized currency
163 2010-12-05 00:51:23 <dabbish1> democratic currency you mean?
164 2010-12-05 00:51:36 <bencoder> many of us here are libertarian/anarchist types, dabbish1, and believe government has no place in money, or anywhere else really ;)
165 2010-12-05 00:51:38 <theymos> dabbish1: It's doubtful that he's even from Japan. I think he created the identity just for Bitcoin.
166 2010-12-05 00:51:57 <dabbish1> bencoder: yeah, me an anarchist too :)
167 2010-12-05 00:52:02 <dabbish1> theymos: oh
168 2010-12-05 00:52:39 <Kiba> anarchists don't believe in democracy
169 2010-12-05 00:52:52 <dabbish1> Kiba: why you say that?
170 2010-12-05 00:53:01 <Kiba> we don't vote
171 2010-12-05 00:53:02 <Kiba> we trade
172 2010-12-05 00:53:15 <joe_1> democracy is pretty authoritarian
173 2010-12-05 00:53:21 <dabbish1> hmm
174 2010-12-05 00:53:29 <Kiba> we have no belief in the idea of majority rule
175 2010-12-05 00:53:30 <bencoder> democracy is just majority rule, squash the minority
176 2010-12-05 00:53:37 <dabbish1> representative democracy is not very democratic, but direct democracy is
177 2010-12-05 00:53:45 <Kiba> we hate democracy
178 2010-12-05 00:54:00 <bencoder> I don't like the concept of it
179 2010-12-05 00:54:00 <dabbish1> and with the internet is finally possible to practically implement direct democracy
180 2010-12-05 00:54:08 <Kiba> bitcoin don't care if you accept it or not accept it.
181 2010-12-05 00:54:13 <bencoder> I don't want to be ruled by whoever wins a vote
182 2010-12-05 00:54:21 <bencoder> or whatever rule wins a vote, even
183 2010-12-05 00:54:26 <dabbish1> so who do you guys prefer to be ruled by?
184 2010-12-05 00:54:30 <bencoder> myself
185 2010-12-05 00:54:30 <Kiba> nobody in this channel votes on bitcoin. We accept bitcoin, willfully.
186 2010-12-05 00:54:38 <Kiba> dabbish1: individual soverenity
187 2010-12-05 00:54:43 <bencoder> ^
188 2010-12-05 00:55:01 <bencoder> we're talking for ourselves here though dabbish1, others on this channel have other views, ofc
189 2010-12-05 00:55:29 <Kiba> the community don't vote, ever.
190 2010-12-05 00:55:30 <Kiba> we do.
191 2010-12-05 00:55:43 <Kiba> we talk and try to convince each other, but we don't vote on decisions.
192 2010-12-05 00:56:22 <joe_1> who runs mtgox.com? i forgot
193 2010-12-05 00:56:32 <ArtForz> mtgox
194 2010-12-05 00:56:37 <mtgox> me
195 2010-12-05 00:56:38 <bencoder> i dont mind the concept of voting, as long as the result of that vote is not forced on people who voted the other way.
196 2010-12-05 00:56:42 <dabbish1> yeah, no but what i meant by a democratic currency is that it's decentralized and not controlled by any authority
197 2010-12-05 00:56:47 <joe_1> do you know how you're doing margin trading yet?
198 2010-12-05 00:56:58 <jgarzik> direct democracy == mob rule.  better hope you're not a minority.
199 2010-12-05 00:57:08 <AAA_awright> Democratic = bad
200 2010-12-05 00:57:28 <Kiba> two wolves and one chicken deciding what to eat for dinner.
201 2010-12-05 00:57:29 <AAA_awright> Arbitrary rule in general is bad
202 2010-12-05 00:57:33 <jgarzik> joe_1: did privacyshark ever get back to you?
203 2010-12-05 00:57:45 <joe_1> no those fuckers still havent changed the dns nor have i heard back from them
204 2010-12-05 00:57:59 <mtgox> joe_1: It should be in mid dec
205 2010-12-05 00:58:07 <jgarzik> joe_1: if you're on the forums, please do consider posting your experience...
206 2010-12-05 00:58:16 <jgarzik> joe_1: I would really appreciate it
207 2010-12-05 00:58:35 <dabbish1> well it's better that the majority rules over the minority. but hey, i am up for suggestions. what do you think is betteR?
208 2010-12-05 00:58:40 <joe_1> jg: yeah i will. unfortunately, they'll come back and blame me for doing something wrong and immediately resolve the situation. just like they did every other time someone complained publicly
209 2010-12-05 00:59:01 <bencoder> dabbish1: why does someone / some people need to rule?
210 2010-12-05 00:59:27 <Kiba> dabbish1: let kill the jews.
211 2010-12-05 00:59:31 <joe_1> mtg: ok, i'm interested in how you're going to do it. do you know yet?
212 2010-12-05 00:59:33 <dabbish1> bencoder: there needs to be some kind of organization right?
213 2010-12-05 00:59:33 <Kiba> we decide to kill the jews.
214 2010-12-05 00:59:52 <Kiba> dabbish1: there is an organization called the bitcoin community and there is no democracy in the bitcoin community.
215 2010-12-05 01:00:30 <Kiba> everybody is free to do whatever they want, for the most part.
216 2010-12-05 01:00:35 <jgarzik> there are always rulers.  it is the nature of man.  we are pack animals.  there are alpha dogs and sheep.  if you don't select a ruler, some obnoxious asshole with weapons just declares himself ruler :)
217 2010-12-05 01:00:39 <bencoder> dabbish1: depends what you're talking about, in a certain sense, yes, as long as people are free to leave the community that exists as a result of that organisation if they're not happy with the decisions made
218 2010-12-05 01:00:47 <dabbish1> Kiba: what i meant before when i said it was a democratic currency was that it's not controlled by any central bank. it's decentralized, for the people by the people. that's why it's democratic
219 2010-12-05 01:00:54 <dabbish1> not in the sense that you can vote on anything
220 2010-12-05 01:01:03 <Kiba> dabbish1: democracy is about voting
221 2010-12-05 01:01:10 <jgarzik> You can vote with your feet
222 2010-12-05 01:01:10 <Kiba> markets are not democracies
223 2010-12-05 01:01:12 <Kiba> markets are markets
224 2010-12-05 01:01:17 <jgarzik> and wallet
225 2010-12-05 01:01:27 <AAA_awright> In a manner of speaking
226 2010-12-05 01:01:52 <dabbish1> Kiba: no democracy is greek for people's power
227 2010-12-05 01:01:55 <Kiba> we are a market community.
228 2010-12-05 01:02:11 <Kiba> there is no people's power.
229 2010-12-05 01:02:11 <theymos> The network sort of works on $$$=votes, since you can buy CPU power.
230 2010-12-05 01:02:14 <Kiba> there are only inidviduals
231 2010-12-05 01:03:46 <joe_1> mtg: ok, i'm interested in how you're going to do it. do you know yet?
232 2010-12-05 01:05:05 <Kiba> it is clear that you think voting is fine, dabbish1
233 2010-12-05 01:05:26 <dabbish1> Kiba: what do you mean?
234 2010-12-05 01:06:20 <Kiba> majority rule is better than minority rule
235 2010-12-05 01:07:22 <dabbish1> Kiba: yeah, that is basically the principle
236 2010-12-05 01:07:27 <Kiba> you say the internet make it possible to implement direct democracy
237 2010-12-05 01:07:31 <dabbish1> Kiba: yes
238 2010-12-05 01:07:52 <Kiba> but of course, many of us, if not all of us thinks that's a bunch of nonsense
239 2010-12-05 01:08:19 <dabbish1> Kiba: well, that would surprise me, given the decentralized nature of bitcoins
240 2010-12-05 01:09:05 <Kiba> dabbish1: that's because bitcoin is not about voting. It's about markets.
241 2010-12-05 01:09:22 <Kiba> in the sense that it attrack market idealogue
242 2010-12-05 01:09:29 <Kiba> more than it attract democracy supporters
243 2010-12-05 01:09:42 <dabbish1> Kiba: i know, it's a currency. but it enables us to have an alternative to government currencies
244 2010-12-05 01:10:02 <dabbish1> current governments are quite authoritarian
245 2010-12-05 01:10:02 <Kiba> if you have a democracy, surely you guys would vote yourself money.
246 2010-12-05 01:10:08 <theymos> Bitcoin is a way of distributing data. How you interpret that data depends on the code that you have chosen to run. No majority can force you to interpret data in a specific way.
247 2010-12-05 01:10:10 <anarchyx> we need a market of government.. only the best on is allowed to stay
248 2010-12-05 01:10:12 <Kiba> democracy are authoritian.
249 2010-12-05 01:10:27 <MT`AwAy> democracy is a human concept, bitcoin is a computer concept
250 2010-12-05 01:10:45 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: wrong, it's all a human concept.
251 2010-12-05 01:10:47 <MT`AwAy> a democracy would imply every *human* has the same decision power, which is impossible to enforce over internet
252 2010-12-05 01:10:49 <Kiba> humans invent computers.
253 2010-12-05 01:10:53 <anarchyx> read 'democracy, the god that failed' - great book :)
254 2010-12-05 01:10:55 <dabbish1> Kiba: so what do you propose to replace it the representative democracy?
255 2010-12-05 01:10:57 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: one can be implemented with computers
256 2010-12-05 01:11:03 <MT`AwAy> and has fixed mathematical rules
257 2010-12-05 01:11:19 <mtgox> joe_1: yes I more or less know. I'll post a description soon
258 2010-12-05 01:11:25 <jgarzik> we have a market for government.  you "buy" by immigrating to a new country.
259 2010-12-05 01:11:28 <Kiba> dabbish1: markets, and more markets.
260 2010-12-05 01:11:43 <Kiba> jgarzik: that's a rather expensive form of market
261 2010-12-05 01:11:53 <Kiba> only 200 nations for like what? 6 billions.
262 2010-12-05 01:13:18 <dabbish1> Kiba: so who do you propose create laws?
263 2010-12-05 01:13:25 <Kiba> markets.
264 2010-12-05 01:13:40 <dabbish1> Kiba: so how would a market create a law?
265 2010-12-05 01:13:50 <Kiba> through protection agencies.
266 2010-12-05 01:14:00 <dabbish1> and what are those?
267 2010-12-05 01:14:11 <Kiba> policemen.
268 2010-12-05 01:14:18 <dabbish1> lol
269 2010-12-05 01:14:21 <Kiba> but, really it's the court you patronize
270 2010-12-05 01:14:31 <dabbish1> police create law, so kinda like a police state then you mean?
271 2010-12-05 01:14:31 <Kiba> you can choose any c ourt you want...
272 2010-12-05 01:14:50 <dabbish1> fascism?
273 2010-12-05 01:14:50 <Kiba> dabbish1: nope. It's created by the court, enforced by the police...that you pay.
274 2010-12-05 01:15:05 <theymos> dabbish1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism
275 2010-12-05 01:15:06 <Kiba> the key is buying and selling of police and court service.
276 2010-12-05 01:15:35 <dabbish1> so if you don't like the police force, you go for another?
277 2010-12-05 01:16:10 <Kiba> yeah, just like you switch internet service provider, switch between grocery stores, and so on. At least that's the principle.
278 2010-12-05 01:16:46 <anarchyx> anarcho capitalism = great
279 2010-12-05 01:16:52 <dabbish1> ok, so what happens if they make a law and put me behind bars?
280 2010-12-05 01:17:03 <Kiba> anarchyx: it's voluntarism. Anarcho-capitalism iis a specific implementation.
281 2010-12-05 01:17:12 <Kiba> dabbish1: why would they put their own customer behind bar?
282 2010-12-05 01:17:37 <dabbish1> because they are the mafia and they will put you behind bars if you don't pay, for example
283 2010-12-05 01:17:45 <Kiba> customers in jail are not productive, dabbish1
284 2010-12-05 01:17:57 <theymos> Hire another protection agency to protect you. That protection agency will quickly lose reputation and customers.
285 2010-12-05 01:18:03 <anarchyx> my question is: who decides on the laws?
286 2010-12-05 01:18:23 <Kiba> anarchyx: through the process of market evolution I guess like how English common laws emerge.
287 2010-12-05 01:18:39 <Kiba> at least, that's my understanding.
288 2010-12-05 01:18:45 <anarchyx> is there a constitution, a basic right for everyone?
289 2010-12-05 01:19:02 <anarchyx> cause the only part i didnt figure out yet, is the actual implementation of constitution/law system
290 2010-12-05 01:19:02 <joe_1> private court system? it won't work. i'm somewhat libertarian but arbitration is a private version of court systems and it's well known to be flawed, favoring corporations over the customer.
291 2010-12-05 01:19:03 <anarchyx> e
292 2010-12-05 01:19:06 <anarchyx> everything else makes sense
293 2010-12-05 01:19:06 <Kiba> it would be common laws.
294 2010-12-05 01:19:38 <theymos> You decide the laws by picking a protection agency with laws you like. If one thing is so abhorrent that people are willing to pay huge sums of money to eliminate it (like murder, possibly), it won't be able to happen anywhere, though.
295 2010-12-05 01:19:41 <Kiba> basically, the idea is that people don't make laws. They discover them.
296 2010-12-05 01:20:25 <Kiba> polycentric law system, basically
297 2010-12-05 01:20:37 <anarchyx> you got examples of this?
298 2010-12-05 01:20:45 <Kiba> Midevial Iceland
299 2010-12-05 01:22:19 <theymos> In some islamic countries they have simultanious Sharia law courts and common law courts. If two Sharia law people fight, they settle in a Sharia court, and vice-versa. If two different groups fight, there is a pre-negotiated arbitration agreement. This is kind of like how anarcho-capitalist "law enforcement" would work.
300 2010-12-05 01:22:21 <dabbish1> Kiba: so what about social medicine? that wouldn't exist under anarcho-capitalism right? you pay for health care or you don't get it, right?
301 2010-12-05 01:23:02 <ColonelPanic1> dabbish1: I'm just jumping into this now, but why wouldn't charity exist?
302 2010-12-05 01:23:07 <theymos> If people legitimately care enough to provide other people with free health care, it can exist.
303 2010-12-05 01:23:08 <Kiba> dabbish1: the principle of voluntarism is that taxation, corecision, and slavery are evil.
304 2010-12-05 01:23:55 <Kiba> if social medicine violate libertarian ethic, then of course it won't exist in a libertarian society.
305 2010-12-05 01:23:59 <anarchyx> the idea of a monopoly like government doing healthcare is a bad one, cause it has no competition
306 2010-12-05 01:24:12 <anarchyx> and we all know how great government monopolies work (not)
307 2010-12-05 01:24:36 <Kiba> the US healthcare system is a series of rent-seeking guilds, coercision, and regulation.
308 2010-12-05 01:25:09 <anarchyx> thats also why cops are fuckers
309 2010-12-05 01:25:19 <anarchyx> they have a monopolie.. they can get away with a lot
310 2010-12-05 01:25:28 <anarchyx> its not like i can rent another cop
311 2010-12-05 01:26:21 <dabbish1> so in that sense what differentiates an anarcho-capitalist from a liberterian?
312 2010-12-05 01:27:33 <ColonelPanic1> free medicine can exist without the use of force
313 2010-12-05 01:27:34 <Kiba> anarcho-capitalist are libertarians.
314 2010-12-05 01:27:38 <bencoder> libertarian is more an umbrella term that encompasses a wide variety of viewpoints.. or at least, that's how it is now
315 2010-12-05 01:27:40 <ColonelPanic1> think about how much other shit you can get for free
316 2010-12-05 01:27:45 <ColonelPanic1> because someone chose to give it away
317 2010-12-05 01:28:35 <dabbish1> so how come people prefer to label themselves as anarcho-capitalists? doesn't libertarian sound a whole lot betteR?
318 2010-12-05 01:28:38 <anarchyx> i believe that when people have enough money, they will also be loyal towards the poor.. and try to help everyone in society to advance - right now they count on government for that
319 2010-12-05 01:29:00 <Kiba> Mutual aid society
320 2010-12-05 01:29:03 <theymos> dabbish1: Basically, Libertarians believe that people can be compelled to do things without a contract under a few limited circumstances, whereas anarcho-capitalists believe they never should.
321 2010-12-05 01:29:05 <anarchyx> like they count on government to declase medicine safe.. FDA is  the biggest crook ever
322 2010-12-05 01:29:24 <bencoder> dabbish1: because libertarian encompasses a lot, people choose anarcho capitalist to specify a particular "brand" of libertarian. But I tend to self describe with the agorist label more than ancap now
323 2010-12-05 01:29:32 <Kiba> mutual aid societies used to be a prominent feature in American society
324 2010-12-05 01:29:35 <Kiba> they serve everyone
325 2010-12-05 01:29:46 <Kiba> from the poor to the rich frat boys like the freemasons
326 2010-12-05 01:30:21 <Kiba> they work because they are based on principle of reciporacy
327 2010-12-05 01:30:24 <dabbish1> theymos: do thing without a contract? what exactly do you mean by that?
328 2010-12-05 01:30:47 <Kiba> dabbish1: here, bitcoiners don't do things with a contract
329 2010-12-05 01:30:58 <lolcat> I think I want to make a bitcoin casino, or slot machine
330 2010-12-05 01:31:01 <AAA_awright> Is that what we are? Bitcoiners?
331 2010-12-05 01:31:07 <dabbish1> lol
332 2010-12-05 01:31:18 <jgarzik> cat
333 2010-12-05 01:31:22 <Kiba> dabbish1: we expect somebody to try to scam...
334 2010-12-05 01:31:26 <theymos> dabbish1: Some libertarians believe in forced taxation. There are probably other examples.
335 2010-12-05 01:31:27 <Kiba> but we ain't going to raise hell
336 2010-12-05 01:31:28 <joe_1> lolcat would you like to play at a bitcoin asino?
337 2010-12-05 01:31:31 <anarchyx> lolcat: great idea
338 2010-12-05 01:31:44 <dabbish1> these are some interesting ideas i must admit
339 2010-12-05 01:31:48 <Kiba> there are not going to be a great lynching of a....
340 2010-12-05 01:31:50 <Kiba> fraudster
341 2010-12-05 01:32:09 <Kiba> but if you're found out to be a fraud, there will be some...blacklisting
342 2010-12-05 01:32:43 <anarchyx> reputation systems are already present in #bitcoin-otc
343 2010-12-05 01:33:03 <Kiba> nanotube: you received my loan payment? Rated me already?
344 2010-12-05 01:33:15 <lolcat> joe_1: I would love to
345 2010-12-05 01:33:29 <Kiba> there's already a bitcoin casino, lolcat
346 2010-12-05 01:33:39 <lolcat> anarchyx: I just have to figure out how I can get bitcoin running on a server playing with my server
347 2010-12-05 01:33:41 <Kiba> it's called Dragon Tales
348 2010-12-05 01:33:43 <joe_1> come to cashcow.no-ip.org enter in a new username and password for yourself and let me know what it is. i'll set you up with 10 coins complimentary
349 2010-12-05 01:33:46 <dabbish1> so what about the current economic situation for the U.S? what are you guys anticipating? hyper-inflation? mild recession?
350 2010-12-05 01:33:48 <AAA_awright> f?
351 2010-12-05 01:34:07 <Kiba> dabbish1: it should be the..."WORLD"
352 2010-12-05 01:34:19 <Kiba> you see, we live in a global economy
353 2010-12-05 01:34:24 <dabbish1> Kiba: you think the world would be as affected as the US?
354 2010-12-05 01:34:26 <anarchyx> lolcat: i think you should be able to buy any major gambling software out there.. the only thing different is that you exchange credits for bitcoins and vica versa
355 2010-12-05 01:34:34 <Kiba> dabbish1: absolutely. China depend on us for trade.
356 2010-12-05 01:34:47 <dabbish1> Kiba: yes but certain countries don't have a massive debt problem
357 2010-12-05 01:34:55 <lolcat> joe_1: xae8koo
358 2010-12-05 01:34:59 <Kiba> dabbish1: still affect them
359 2010-12-05 01:35:04 <lolcat> anarchyx: Even open-source?
360 2010-12-05 01:35:12 <Kiba> you see, it's the connections between the countries that rope everyone into this global economy
361 2010-12-05 01:35:20 <Kiba> we become wealthy
362 2010-12-05 01:35:21 <jgarzik> the countries that don't have a massive debt problem are inextricably linked to those that do :)
363 2010-12-05 01:35:22 <Kiba> by trading
364 2010-12-05 01:35:25 <Kiba> goods and services
365 2010-12-05 01:35:30 <theymos> I expect worldwide economic collapse, and subsequently a great increase in Bitcoin adoption. ;)
366 2010-12-05 01:35:35 <jgarzik> :)
367 2010-12-05 01:35:36 <Kiba> on inidivdiual, local, than national...then international
368 2010-12-05 01:35:53 <Kiba> theymos: it will be a very short worldwide collapse
369 2010-12-05 01:35:56 <anarchyx> lolcat: dont know if theres open source, but doesnt really matter.. you choose what your casino credits are worth and what they are exchanged for
370 2010-12-05 01:36:02 <Kiba> and subsequently supergrowth
371 2010-12-05 01:36:18 <lolcat> anarchyx: The exchange bit is complicated
372 2010-12-05 01:36:38 <anarchyx> lolcat: how so?
373 2010-12-05 01:36:51 <Kiba> just like we have a fast recovery in 1920 or something
374 2010-12-05 01:37:07 <lolcat> My coding skills are a bit rusty
375 2010-12-05 01:37:32 <lolcat> I need to understand the api for bitcoin and connect that to php/javascript or something
376 2010-12-05 01:37:50 <nanotube> Kiba: yes, received. :)
377 2010-12-05 01:38:09 <joe_1> lolcat thank you comp is now available
378 2010-12-05 01:38:22 <nanotube> Kiba: rated
379 2010-12-05 01:38:43 <bencoder> lolcat: it's pretty damn simple with the json-rpc php lib
380 2010-12-05 01:38:48 <nanotube> ;;bc,mtgox
381 2010-12-05 01:38:49 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.2589,"low":0.205,"vol":28445,"buy":0.22,"sell":0.234,"last":0.22}}
382 2010-12-05 01:38:52 <lolcat> joe_1: THank you
383 2010-12-05 01:39:01 <anarchyx> theres a huge demand for online gambling from americans.. visa/mastercard banned casino transactions for americans.. youre entering a tricky zone but it would be succesfull
384 2010-12-05 01:39:22 <Kiba> the first thing you think of is a casino?
385 2010-12-05 01:39:22 <lolcat> bencoder: I should get going with it, because having a slot machine would be awesome
386 2010-12-05 01:39:26 <Kiba> could be a lucractive business
387 2010-12-05 01:39:47 <lolcat> Probably, tax free coins I can hide untill times gets worse
388 2010-12-05 01:40:29 <anarchyx> we need to enhance the internet so it becomes an untrackeable anarchy and people can do whatever the fuck they want - like gambling
389 2010-12-05 01:40:43 <nanotube> anarchyx: freenet :)
390 2010-12-05 01:40:52 <Kiba> anarchyx: talk is cheap.
391 2010-12-05 01:41:02 <anarchyx> nanotube: yes - but i tried it 5 years ago and it was so slow :)
392 2010-12-05 01:41:06 <lolcat> So it is a safe way to hide many?
393 2010-12-05 01:41:09 <anarchyx> i know kiba
394 2010-12-05 01:41:10 <nanotube> anarchyx: they say it's much faster now.
395 2010-12-05 01:41:19 <anarchyx> the thing is
396 2010-12-05 01:41:19 <nanotube> anarchyx: though i myself haven't tried it recently (yet).
397 2010-12-05 01:41:26 <jgarzik> lolcat: encryption
398 2010-12-05 01:41:45 <anarchyx> the more that gov are gonna start banning sites, like the torrent ban, and now wikileaks getting in trouble.. the sooner it will emerge
399 2010-12-05 01:41:57 <lolcat> joe_1: Is there a magick way to place bets? I cant seam to manage
400 2010-12-05 01:42:01 <Kiba> you sound sure of success
401 2010-12-05 01:42:08 <jgarzik> the darknet already exists.  you are just not a member.
402 2010-12-05 01:42:23 <anarchyx> its inevitable
403 2010-12-05 01:42:25 <joe_1> lolcat: click the gold bitcoin that says Roulette
404 2010-12-05 01:42:39 <anarchyx> the reason why the internet became big was because of its freedom.. it will always revert back to that
405 2010-12-05 01:42:40 <joe_1> then you will get to the roulette table. Have you gotten this far?
406 2010-12-05 01:42:42 <dabbish1> Kiba: interesting conversation, thanks. my take on it is that anarcho-capitalism would be an ideal society to live in. but in order to achieve it, human beings would have to go through different stages of democratic change. if history teaches us anything it is that change happens slowly in stages. and before we ever reach anarcho-capitalism i truly believe there has to be a democratic system like direct democracy. because people aren't just ready to imp
407 2010-12-05 01:42:52 <Kiba> GOSH
408 2010-12-05 01:42:52 <theymos> Freenet requires major hacks to do any real-time communication. Something like I2P or maybe Netsukuku is the future.
409 2010-12-05 01:42:55 <anarchyx> bitcoin is the perfect compliment
410 2010-12-05 01:42:57 <Kiba> we don't want democracy!
411 2010-12-05 01:43:10 <Kiba> and this is not a democractic community.
412 2010-12-05 01:43:32 <bencoder> dabbish1: I agree with you that it has to be incremental, but the incrementalism needs to be moving away from democracy.
413 2010-12-05 01:43:37 <lolcat> joe_1: I have, I am looking at the rulet table, but Min bet max bet, total chips bet paid and round it is empty and teh roulett never stop
414 2010-12-05 01:43:40 <Kiba> it's a community of peers.
415 2010-12-05 01:43:48 <nanotube> theymos: how does the security/anonymity of i2p compare with that of freenet?
416 2010-12-05 01:44:03 <theymos> dabbish1: The next step is seasteading, I think.
417 2010-12-05 01:44:10 <anarchyx> to reach ancap/libertarian society we need an alternative, anonymous currency system.. like this one.. to emerge
418 2010-12-05 01:44:17 <anarchyx> currency is a very important link
419 2010-12-05 01:44:29 <bencoder> hey, theymos... do i recognise your nick from the SS forums?
420 2010-12-05 01:44:41 <Kiba> theymos is theymos, bencoder
421 2010-12-05 01:44:42 <theymos> bencoder: What is SS?
422 2010-12-05 01:44:46 <bencoder> seasteading
423 2010-12-05 01:44:50 <bencoder> nevermind i guess not :)
424 2010-12-05 01:44:55 <Kiba> SS sound like an evil nazi organization
425 2010-12-05 01:45:03 <theymos> If I ever posted there, it was only once or twice.
426 2010-12-05 01:45:08 <bencoder> ah right
427 2010-12-05 01:45:18 <anarchyx> seasteading seems to have been dying a bit lately
428 2010-12-05 01:45:21 <Kiba> I think seasteaders think bitcoin is a meh idea
429 2010-12-05 01:45:29 <bencoder> yeah, it does, anarchyx :/
430 2010-12-05 01:45:30 <Kiba> anarchyx: I don't see any visible progress
431 2010-12-05 01:45:45 <nanotube> btw, feel free to take the systems of govt discussions over #bitcoin-discussion ...
432 2010-12-05 01:45:49 <bencoder> Kiba: I'm a (wannabe) seasteader
433 2010-12-05 01:45:52 <anarchyx> i have an idea for an alternative society.. it can work
434 2010-12-05 01:46:20 <AAA_awright> anarchyx: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1884.0
435 2010-12-05 01:46:30 <Kiba> nanotube: internet would be so slow
436 2010-12-05 01:46:41 <Kiba> unless we figure out faster than light communication
437 2010-12-05 01:46:41 <nanotube> Kiba: local caching
438 2010-12-05 01:46:49 <anarchyx> tnx aaa
439 2010-12-05 01:46:58 <Kiba> real time game are impossible, nanotube
440 2010-12-05 01:47:05 <Kiba> at least with earthlings
441 2010-12-05 01:47:17 <joe_1> lolcat: Please right-click anywhere in the roulette wheel, and choose Settings. This should open up your flash settings. Make sure there is some amount of storage allowed. Do you have any special configuration for your flash that might cause flash applications to fail? Also, try reloading the page. I have never seen the behavior you are describing. It may be an unreliable network connection.
442 2010-12-05 01:47:36 <anarchyx> you can travel FTL but only without your body.. out of body
443 2010-12-05 01:47:51 <theymos> nanotube: Freenet's code is really messy. I  am 100% sure that if you were actually targetted by any remotely powerful attacker, they would be able to find you, especially in OpenNet mode. I2P is very much like Tor hidden services, which is a nice and simple use of cryptography, but one vulnerable to intersection attacks. It's also more centralized, requiring a few floodfil routers to maintain routerInfo data.
444 2010-12-05 01:48:06 <AAA_awright> anarchyx: But anything that would route a message to the private key holder fairly quickly would be awesome
445 2010-12-05 01:48:37 <theymos> nanotube: So I would say I2P is more anonymous, though I like the goals of Freenet more.
446 2010-12-05 01:48:39 <AAA_awright> Instead of specifying a server to send an email message to, you specify a public key hash to deliver to
447 2010-12-05 01:48:46 <lolcat> joe_1: I rigth clicked and changed to unlimited, didnt do anthing. Maybe it is linuxs fault
448 2010-12-05 01:48:55 <anarchyx> god i love this channel :P its with all the right people and thinkers in the world :)
449 2010-12-05 01:49:29 <bencoder> hehe
450 2010-12-05 01:49:31 <Kiba> this is practical anarchy at its best
451 2010-12-05 01:49:57 <Kiba> no more sitting around and talking about how bad governments is
452 2010-12-05 01:50:08 <Kiba> but we can actually do something constructive
453 2010-12-05 01:50:14 <bencoder> yes, that's why i love this so much, Kiba
454 2010-12-05 01:50:15 <anarchyx> well said :)
455 2010-12-05 01:50:43 <lolcat> joe_1: Are you using some special ports? A lot of ports are blocked here
456 2010-12-05 01:51:45 <nanotube> theymos: well, from what i hear, there's quite a bit of CP on freenet... if that isn't enough incentive for the government (powerful attacker indeed) to attack... then maybe it's not quite as easy?
457 2010-12-05 01:52:04 <theymos> nanotube: They don't care about difficult targets.
458 2010-12-05 01:52:08 <joe_1> yes, the site is on port 10619, but that is the same port that the flash app communicates with. So if you are seeing the rest of the site, it is not clear why the flash app is not working. It is probably, as you said, due to the fact that you are using a Linux browser, and the site has not been tested on Linux browsers. It is likely that the site will work for you from a Windows browser.
459 2010-12-05 01:53:29 <nanotube> theymos: ah because they have plenty of lower-hanging fruit?
460 2010-12-05 01:53:29 <theymos> nanotube: I once read a post from someone who claimed to be a police officer in some "computer crimes" division. He said that he's never once had someone who even used TrueCrypt. Freenet users are practicing security by obscurity, IMO.
461 2010-12-05 01:53:33 <dabbish1> ok, and out of curiosity, what are you guys take on 9/11?
462 2010-12-05 01:53:54 <theymos> nanotube: Right.
463 2010-12-05 01:54:02 <Kiba> I believe it was not an inside job.
464 2010-12-05 01:54:16 <Kiba> if it was an inside job, wikileaks would already know and release it.
465 2010-12-05 01:54:17 <bencoder> I believe it doesn't really matter if it was or wasn't
466 2010-12-05 01:54:35 <dabbish1> ok
467 2010-12-05 01:54:41 <Kiba> bencoder: the response was just a bunch of dumb showy movie
468 2010-12-05 01:54:44 <bencoder> governments have killed people for less and will continue to do so
469 2010-12-05 01:54:45 <nanotube> dabbish1: my take: terrorism sucks. :P
470 2010-12-05 01:55:00 <Kiba> the government shows security
471 2010-12-05 01:55:03 <Kiba> not make security
472 2010-12-05 01:55:06 <Kiba> get it?
473 2010-12-05 01:55:12 <bencoder> yep
474 2010-12-05 01:55:24 <Kiba> plus, we have a security industrial complex with all kind of fancy tech.
475 2010-12-05 01:55:32 <nanotube> it's big business
476 2010-12-05 01:55:43 <xelister> nanotube brocktice  if someone sees Diablo-3d, tell him to fix his miner (also fails on brocktie's box... :-/)
477 2010-12-05 01:55:52 <Kiba> and they invented expensive toys with dubious killing potential
478 2010-12-05 01:55:52 <nanotube> theymos: mm i see. i'll look into i2p as well. :)
479 2010-12-05 01:55:57 <nanotube> xelister: use the bot messaging service
480 2010-12-05 01:55:58 <bencoder> if it wasn't an inside job, it was bound to happen some time regardless, and the response would be the same
481 2010-12-05 01:56:00 <nanotube> ;;help later tell
482 2010-12-05 01:56:01 <gribble> (later tell <nick> <text>) -- Tells <nick> <text> the next time <nick> is in seen. <nick> can contain wildcard characters, and the first matching nick will be given the note.
483 2010-12-05 01:56:10 <dabbish1> and what about the kennedy assassination?
484 2010-12-05 01:56:17 <gribble> diablo-d3 was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 7 hours, 17 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: * Diablo-D3 goes for real
485 2010-12-05 01:56:17 <nanotube> ;;seen diablo-d3
486 2010-12-05 01:56:28 <nanotube> xelister: make sure to use the correct nick too. :)
487 2010-12-05 01:56:29 <Kiba> dabbish1: who fucking care about JFK?
488 2010-12-05 01:56:36 <Kiba> he's a speed freak and a statist.
489 2010-12-05 01:57:07 <theymos> nanotube: I really like the design of GNUnet, but I can't get it to run on my Windows box, so I've never actually tried it.
490 2010-12-05 01:57:17 <nanotube> mm gnunet? /me googles.
491 2010-12-05 01:57:18 <lolcat> joe_1: I don't have windows, and buying a copy of windows to buy a flash game seams a bit extencive.
492 2010-12-05 01:57:25 <dabbish1> ok, well. thanks for the convo guys. it was interesting. although i must say i kinda lost respect for you. let's just say i will put you in my sheep category
493 2010-12-05 01:57:26 <lolcat> play a flash game
494 2010-12-05 01:57:36 <bencoder> hah
495 2010-12-05 01:57:36 <Kiba> sheeps? we are sheeps?
496 2010-12-05 01:58:01 <nanotube> theymos: ah interesting. :)
497 2010-12-05 01:58:03 <ArtForz> lol
498 2010-12-05 01:58:12 <Kiba> bencoder: he doesn't brother to understand our philosophy
499 2010-12-05 01:58:37 <bencoder> Kiba: I don't think it mattered what our philosophy was if we didn't believe in the 9/11 being an inside job
500 2010-12-05 01:58:38 <anarchyx> AAA_awright: theres systems out there.. like this http://antsp2p.sourceforge.net/
501 2010-12-05 01:58:44 <anarchyx> or MUTE
502 2010-12-05 01:58:52 <Kiba> bencoder: true dat.
503 2010-12-05 01:59:07 <AAA_awright> anarchyx: Basically what I want is this
504 2010-12-05 01:59:55 <AAA_awright> anarchyx: I'm dreaming of an email system where there are no hosts or servers, but everyone receives emails with their private key, it's routed to the private key holder
505 2010-12-05 01:59:58 <theymos> anarchyx: Mute is very vulnerable to attacks against the network because it doesn't use end-to-end encryption, and its design makes it impossible for it to do so.
506 2010-12-05 02:00:10 <AAA_awright> On top of this, you build a social networking platform so you can send RDF data to your friends
507 2010-12-05 02:00:17 <theymos> anarchyx: And Ants P2P has the same problem.
508 2010-12-05 02:00:24 <joe_1> lolcat: Windows is free. But I agree with you in any case. If you want to put in the research, I would recommend finding out if your linux firefox browser has the official flash plugin made by Adobe, and that it is a recent version. If it all looks good, then there is probably nothing else that can be done on your end to make it work on linux. In this case, you can withdraw the coins (there
509 2010-12-05 02:00:25 <joe_1> is no playthrough requirement) and check back for an HTML version of the game in the near future.
510 2010-12-05 02:00:26 <AAA_awright> And get a nice little, semantically meaningful, news feed in your email client
511 2010-12-05 02:00:26 <Kiba> hushmail?
512 2010-12-05 02:00:55 <Kiba> Jon Matonis - CEO of hushmail..hmm
513 2010-12-05 02:01:22 <bencoder> Kiba: I just don't think it matters, governments are a problem... if they did it, it's an extra 3000 lives on top of the millions they've killed, or hundreds of thousands if you only count recent history, and those killings can be verified, but I guess they don't care so much if it's brown people being killed.
514 2010-12-05 02:01:51 <Kiba> bencoder: and all the road accidents
515 2010-12-05 02:01:53 <anarchyx> AAA_awright: so basically, you have the email floating out there, and when you login with your private key it will gravitate towards you?
516 2010-12-05 02:02:33 <Kiba> ambulance: SHIT! FUCK! WE'RE STUCK IN TRAFFICS
517 2010-12-05 02:03:11 <anarchyx> theymos: is there a good darknet out there already?
518 2010-12-05 02:04:08 <Kiba> ya know. without bitcoin, we wouldn't have come up with..BitDNS
519 2010-12-05 02:04:26 <anarchyx> yes :)
520 2010-12-05 02:04:26 <bencoder> Kiba: of course, unquantifiable number of people who've died prematurely because of government policies. but, by it's nature, it's unquantifiable and so difficult to argue with
521 2010-12-05 02:06:13 <bencoder> about a week before i first discovered bitcoin i was thinking really hard trying to come up with a way to do it... but I couldn't. Thank you Satoshi.
522 2010-12-05 02:06:18 <Kiba> bencoder: so, what you got for code now.
523 2010-12-05 02:06:33 <bencoder> not much further yet, will be working on it tomorrow
524 2010-12-05 02:06:36 <Kiba> try to think of it too, but never could.
525 2010-12-05 02:07:06 <Kiba> I wonder how the heck Satoshi come up with the idea.
526 2010-12-05 02:07:11 <AAA_awright> anarchyx: Yeah
527 2010-12-05 02:07:37 <theymos> anarchyx: Not one that is all-around good. I like Tor hidden services, though that is not a true darknet because it relies on centralized directory servers. And I like GNUnet's design, but I can't get it to run (and if I can't, many other people can't). I suspect that both I2P and Freenet (as well as Bitcoin) have flaws that a determined attacker could exploit to do damage to the network or target an individual.
528 2010-12-05 02:07:56 <AAA_awright> Ever see any experement where you just pass off a message to someone you think is closer to the recipiant and see if it gets there?
529 2010-12-05 02:08:27 <joe_1> I2p and bitcoin could be combined to get rid of the freeloader problem
530 2010-12-05 02:08:36 <bencoder> heard about them, AAA_awright. latency sucks though
531 2010-12-05 02:08:51 <AAA_awright> Well if it's a physical letter of course
532 2010-12-05 02:08:54 <lolcat> joe_1: I will get that done, I just have to get some sleep first, my brain is slow when I am tired
533 2010-12-05 02:09:07 <AAA_awright> bencoder: But it gets the job done, and with future messages you can optimize the route
534 2010-12-05 02:09:14 <bencoder> yea
535 2010-12-05 02:09:27 <ArtForz> sounds a bit like freenet-meet-kad
536 2010-12-05 02:09:43 <bencoder> damnit we need a more critical mass of people to care about this stuff so we can start up a proper mesh network
537 2010-12-05 02:10:00 <joe_1> ok, haha, me too. Sorry that we ran into this problem.
538 2010-12-05 02:10:10 <Kiba> bencoder: hmm..aurdino mesh routers?
539 2010-12-05 02:10:11 <theymos> AAA_awright: GNUnet is very like that.
540 2010-12-05 02:10:12 <Kiba> interesting
541 2010-12-05 02:11:51 <bencoder> Kiba: anything, just a new physical layer seperate from the net, buit anonymously and cryptographically from the start
542 2010-12-05 02:11:57 <joe_1> bencoder is there any way you can combine i2p with bitcoin and have it done by, say, mid-February?
543 2010-12-05 02:12:05 <bencoder> no
544 2010-12-05 02:12:14 <joe_1> April?
545 2010-12-05 02:12:17 <AAA_awright> joe_1: i2p?
546 2010-12-05 02:12:31 <joe_1> i2p is a garlic routing network
547 2010-12-05 02:12:38 <joe_1> i dont know how it compares to a mesh network i dont know what a mesh network is
548 2010-12-05 02:13:00 <Kiba> bencoder is working on a download site
549 2010-12-05 02:13:06 <bencoder> despite my name, my coding skills are fairly limited, i'll leave it to someone who knows what they're doing with both of those technologies
550 2010-12-05 02:13:10 <Kiba> I am working on an open source prediction market
551 2010-12-05 02:13:19 <bencoder> joe_1: i was talking physical
552 2010-12-05 02:13:22 <Kiba> I am working on a new business
553 2010-12-05 02:13:29 <Kiba> I am making art...
554 2010-12-05 02:13:30 <Kiba> etc
555 2010-12-05 02:13:33 <Kiba> busy busy busy people
556 2010-12-05 02:13:57 <joe_1> oh
557 2010-12-05 02:14:17 <Kiba> if you don't have time, maybe pledge a bounty for such a project
558 2010-12-05 02:14:23 <bencoder> wireless mesh networks, privately owned cables from property to property
559 2010-12-05 02:14:38 <joe_1> oh ok
560 2010-12-05 02:14:47 <Kiba> we already have wireless mesh systems, right?
561 2010-12-05 02:15:00 <bencoder> yeah
562 2010-12-05 02:15:00 <[Noodles]> shouldn't be such a big deal to get bitcoin run within i2p, creating some tor-like exit-nodes to connect to the main-blockchain might be
563 2010-12-05 02:15:52 <joe_1> the problem with i2p is it is painfully slow and i think it's cause there's no money in it. basically the i2p packets need to contain bitcoins to get these nodes to route this data really fast
564 2010-12-05 02:15:56 <[Noodles]> but an i2p-fork should be working almost outof the box, shouldn't it?
565 2010-12-05 02:16:06 <[Noodles]> yeah, slow it is
566 2010-12-05 02:21:35 <Kiba> why is it so slow?
567 2010-12-05 02:23:33 <joe_1> cause it's a chain of proxies, pretty much, between you and your destination. so the connection is as fast as the slowest person in the chain
568 2010-12-05 02:24:11 <joe_1> and the ping is the sum of everyone's ping in the chain
569 2010-12-05 02:24:36 <Kiba> keeping serects is sure hard.
570 2010-12-05 02:30:56 <lolcat> Is there some quiet bitcoin generator somewhere? That I could just stick in a computer and leave alone that would send me its bitcoins when done?
571 2010-12-05 02:31:27 <theymos> You could probably set up jgarzik's miner to do that.
572 2010-12-05 02:32:36 <[Noodles]> cron, php, json-rpc, here's some scripts on the forums i think, i guess that's what he looking for
573 2010-12-05 02:32:42 <[Noodles]> +t
574 2010-12-05 02:33:42 <[Noodles]> just check bitcoins balance and if theres any, send them to another wallet
575 2010-12-05 02:33:52 <theymos> So you'd just have to run a bitcoind server somewhere, set up jgarzik's miner on a bunch of computers, and have them all pull work for your central miner. It shouldn't be too hard to have the miner run silently.
576 2010-12-05 02:39:13 <nanotube> hey... so how easy would it be to allow arbitrary message text to be included with a tx?
577 2010-12-05 02:39:23 <nanotube> (so that it is embedded in the block chain)?
578 2010-12-05 02:39:35 <theymos> Trivial. But only patched clients could accept such transactions.
579 2010-12-05 02:40:33 <nanotube> aha
580 2010-12-05 02:42:33 <joe_1> i need the bitcoin price to be artifically inflated to $100 or $1000 per coin so i can dump my coins before it falls back to 0.25.
581 2010-12-05 02:43:00 <joe_1> i dont feel like waiting the year or two for it to naturally get to those levels
582 2010-12-05 02:44:00 <jgarzik> :)
583 2010-12-05 02:46:54 <nanotube> joe_1: haha, feel free to do it yourself. :P it would only take like a million usd, maybe. hah.
584 2010-12-05 02:47:09 <nanotube> of course, you'd not make any profit, if you're the one pumping it.
585 2010-12-05 02:47:12 <nanotube> but that's a separate question.
586 2010-12-05 02:56:16 <joe_1> i could jump on mt gox, buy up all the asks up to 100$, hope that bids fall in around 99$, dump my coins, then tell mtgox all the buys were unauthorized and ask them to revert those trades.
587 2010-12-05 02:59:26 <joe_1> mtgox will happily reverse those trades and i will have sold all of my coins at 99.
588 2010-12-05 03:01:11 <nanotube> yea, only problem is... mtgox will not happily reverse those trades. :P
589 2010-12-05 03:29:22 <lolcat> There are methods to inflate a marked
590 2010-12-05 03:30:15 <Diablo-D3> s/ed/et/
591 2010-12-05 03:30:30 <Diablo-D3> who is em3rgent0rdr on the forums?
592 2010-12-05 03:30:30 <lolcat> rigth
593 2010-12-05 03:30:54 <lolcat> Could a computer make 50bitcoins a day?
594 2010-12-05 03:31:02 <MT`AwAy> lolcat: with some gpu inside, yeah
595 2010-12-05 03:31:11 <Kiba> ArtForz have 24 GPUs
596 2010-12-05 03:31:12 <Kiba> I heard
597 2010-12-05 03:31:17 <Kiba> so he produce more than 50 BTC
598 2010-12-05 03:31:23 <Kiba> but he's not exactly happy with the price drop
599 2010-12-05 03:31:57 <Diablo-D3> not 24 yet
600 2010-12-05 03:32:05 <Diablo-D3> he has a few still on backorder
601 2010-12-05 03:32:18 <lolcat> I am seeing the pricedrop
602 2010-12-05 03:32:29 <Kiba> teh ymust have think artforz as a supercustomer
603 2010-12-05 03:32:30 <lolcat> I hope it raises to 0,28 on mtgox
604 2010-12-05 03:32:43 <Diablo-D3> but yeah, he has like a dozen 5970s now
605 2010-12-05 03:32:47 <Diablo-D3> oh wait
606 2010-12-05 03:32:49 <lolcat> But a cheap vps, like linode, would usually have a burstable cpu
607 2010-12-05 03:32:51 <Diablo-D3> I guess that would be 24 GPUs now
608 2010-12-05 03:33:04 <Diablo-D3> since 5970 == 2x 5870
609 2010-12-05 03:33:20 <Kiba> err
610 2010-12-05 03:33:25 <Kiba> no, no, no, no
611 2010-12-05 03:33:30 <Kiba> you already have too much projects, kiba
612 2010-12-05 03:33:46 <fedorared> VPS would not be an effective way to mine
613 2010-12-05 03:33:53 <fedorared> You won't make any friends stealing all the CPU
614 2010-12-05 03:34:02 <Diablo-D3> fedorared: no
615 2010-12-05 03:34:04 <Diablo-D3> er
616 2010-12-05 03:34:05 <Diablo-D3> yes
617 2010-12-05 03:34:07 <Diablo-D3> its not effective
618 2010-12-05 03:34:29 <Diablo-D3> taking the cheapest options, either use rapidxen or use rackspace's cloudspace service...
619 2010-12-05 03:34:35 <Diablo-D3> its still more expensive than just buying GPUs.
620 2010-12-05 03:43:34 <Diablo-D3> so hrm
621 2010-12-05 03:44:44 <donpdonp> Diablo-D3: how many kilohashes/sec do you get from a 5870?
622 2010-12-05 03:45:05 <Diablo-D3> iirc art said its like 350 mhash
623 2010-12-05 03:45:19 <donpdonp> Diablo-D3: k. cool.
624 2010-12-05 03:45:40 <Diablo-D3> a 5970 is less than twice that due to factory underclocking
625 2010-12-05 03:45:53 <Diablo-D3> its just over 600
626 2010-12-05 03:46:07 <Diablo-D3> and thats currently the most powerful card for bitcoin
627 2010-12-05 03:46:24 <OneFixt> Diablo-D3: 600 overclocked?
628 2010-12-05 03:46:32 <Diablo-D3> 600 normal clocked
629 2010-12-05 03:46:37 <OneFixt> which miner?
630 2010-12-05 03:46:46 <Diablo-D3> everyone's
631 2010-12-05 03:46:46 <[Noodles]> my 5850 gets <300, a bit oc'd though
632 2010-12-05 03:46:56 <OneFixt> i believe art said it was 530 normal clocked
633 2010-12-05 03:47:02 <Diablo-D3> OneFixt: er was it?
634 2010-12-05 03:47:10 <OneFixt> i think so
635 2010-12-05 03:47:11 <Diablo-D3> maybe its >600 oc'ed then
636 2010-12-05 03:47:15 <OneFixt> yeah, most likely
637 2010-12-05 03:47:30 <Diablo-D3> a 5970 should perform better than 2x 5850, but not as good as 2x 5870
638 2010-12-05 03:48:34 <Diablo-D3> and sadly
639 2010-12-05 03:48:38 <Diablo-D3> my 4850 does 75 :<
640 2010-12-05 03:48:39 <[Noodles]> at default-clock its 'only' 236M
641 2010-12-05 03:48:58 <Diablo-D3> [Noodles]: what, a 5850?
642 2010-12-05 03:49:03 <[Noodles]> yep
643 2010-12-05 03:49:07 <Diablo-D3> that sounds about right-ish
644 2010-12-05 03:49:10 <Diablo-D3> maybe a tad low
645 2010-12-05 03:49:18 <Diablo-D3> mine should outperform m0's though
646 2010-12-05 03:49:19 <[Noodles]> 5570=50M 64 oc'd
647 2010-12-05 03:49:26 <Diablo-D3> maybe wanna fiddle with -w 64
648 2010-12-05 04:07:46 <Kiba> Wikileaks published diplomatic documents that are BOring
649 2010-12-05 04:10:31 <jrabbit> lol
650 2010-12-05 04:48:06 <ne0futur> paypal blocked wikileaks
651 2010-12-05 04:48:20 <ne0futur> good time to send then a letter iviting them to use btc ?
652 2010-12-05 05:55:46 <Diablo-D3> so I wonder how many people use my miner
653 2010-12-05 05:55:54 <Kiba> man
654 2010-12-05 05:55:57 <Kiba> I hate ehow
655 2010-12-05 05:56:06 <Kiba> it's the most contentless/unhelpful piece of crap
656 2010-12-05 05:56:19 <Diablo-D3> what is?
657 2010-12-05 05:57:19 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: what is?
658 2010-12-05 05:57:44 <nanotube> i'm guessing ehow is some q+a website
659 2010-12-05 05:57:50 <gribble> http://www.ehow.com/ | Learn how to do just about everything at eHow. Expert Village is now a part of eHow, adding expert How To videos to eHow, the world's most popular place to ...
660 2010-12-05 05:57:50 <nanotube> ;;sl ehow
661 2010-12-05 05:57:57 <nanotube> yea probably that. :)
662 2010-12-05 05:58:01 <Diablo-D3> ahh
663 2010-12-05 05:58:09 <Diablo-D3> so I assume no one uses my miner then :<
664 2010-12-05 05:58:37 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: well, it's seems to be quiet time on channel... you know i don't, cuz i don't have no fancy gpus. :)
665 2010-12-05 05:58:46 <nanotube> neither does kiba, iirc.
666 2010-12-05 05:58:58 <nanotube> everyone else is taking a nap. :)
667 2010-12-05 06:03:59 <andrew12> oh hi
668 2010-12-05 06:04:29 <Kiba> coloring midnight
669 2010-12-05 06:05:04 <MT`AwAy> xD
670 2010-12-05 06:07:36 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: meh
671 2010-12-05 06:07:39 <Diablo-D3> probably no one uses it
672 2010-12-05 06:09:52 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: have you resolved all the issues you had with it? (iirc you had some issues?)
673 2010-12-05 06:12:37 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: there wernt any issues
674 2010-12-05 06:12:54 <Diablo-D3> the last one was not working with satoshi's getwork
675 2010-12-05 06:12:57 <Diablo-D3> which I did yesterday
676 2010-12-05 06:16:09 <nanotube> ah
677 2010-12-05 06:16:21 <nanotube> mm well maybe you should put up a poll on the forums :)
678 2010-12-05 06:16:25 <Diablo-D3> xelister keeps bitching his shit doesnt work
679 2010-12-05 06:16:29 <Diablo-D3> but its his shit not working
680 2010-12-05 06:16:29 <nanotube> if you want to know your userbase.
681 2010-12-05 06:16:32 <Diablo-D3> not a miner bug
682 2010-12-05 06:16:35 <nanotube> hehe mm
683 2010-12-05 07:07:08 <xelister> Diablo-D3: what? no
684 2010-12-05 07:07:18 <xelister> Diablo-D3: brocktice also tried your miner, and also it failed
685 2010-12-05 07:07:24 <xelister> it seems your miner is broken
686 2010-12-05 07:07:27 <xelister> on 5970
687 2010-12-05 07:08:16 <xelister> also, I left m0m's overmingt and it so far generated 2 blocks, while yours generates average of 1 block per this time period (x2 slower then expected) - this is too short sample to be sure yet, but still
688 2010-12-05 07:08:37 <xelister> Diablo-D3: brocktice also got invalid-hash warnings from your miner on HIS box too
689 2010-12-05 07:10:57 <xelister> <brocktice> http://pastebin.com/7fNr3u8u    <brocktice> Looks like his miner is bugged
690 2010-12-05 07:13:22 <Diablo-D3> xelister: nope, its not my miner
691 2010-12-05 07:13:31 <Diablo-D3> do the errors go away with sdk 2.2?
692 2010-12-05 07:20:10 <CIA-87> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * rbf7d2dd / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Differenciate different devices with a number in addition to a name - http://bit.ly/f7Hrfl
693 2010-12-05 07:20:15 <Diablo-D3> xelister: try this new change
694 2010-12-05 07:22:20 <Diablo-D3> xelister: it should list only devices > 1
695 2010-12-05 07:29:42 <Diablo-D3> xelister: does it?
696 2010-12-05 07:30:14 <Diablo-D3> hrm
697 2010-12-05 07:30:19 <Diablo-D3> xelister: guess what
698 2010-12-05 07:30:47 <Diablo-D3> that pastebin you listed has nothing to do with the 5970 bug
699 2010-12-05 07:31:09 <Diablo-D3> I suspect brock ran my miner with the wrong bitcoin
700 2010-12-05 07:32:53 <xelister> Diablo-D3: hm?
701 2010-12-05 07:33:02 <Diablo-D3> ERROR: Invalid block sent to Bitcoin at 1:56:24 PM, possible miner bug
702 2010-12-05 07:33:08 <Diablo-D3> thats when bitcoin returns false on sendwork
703 2010-12-05 07:33:15 <Diablo-D3> thats not when the executor thread returns bad results
704 2010-12-05 07:33:21 <xelister> Diablo-D3: how your miner with wrong bitcoin produces this bug, instead of "invalid format in RPC something" that I seen
705 2010-12-05 07:33:45 <Diablo-D3> xelister: so at no point did brock get your bug
706 2010-12-05 07:33:46 <Diablo-D3> so it is
707 2010-12-05 07:33:47 <Diablo-D3> infact
708 2010-12-05 07:33:47 <xelister> but yea, I get other bugs
709 2010-12-05 07:33:49 <Diablo-D3> your system
710 2010-12-05 07:34:05 <xelister> still your miner doesnt work for him
711 2010-12-05 07:34:11 <xelister> brocktice: you aren't areound, are you?
712 2010-12-05 07:34:21 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt work for him for completely other reasons
713 2010-12-05 07:34:27 <Diablo-D3> I suspect his bitcoin isnt new enough
714 2010-12-05 07:34:31 <xelister> Diablo-D3: well already your miner costed me 200-300 BTC :{  so perhaps we should debug this, like:
715 2010-12-05 07:34:36 <xelister> print G and H and hash and target
716 2010-12-05 07:34:40 <Diablo-D3> nope.
717 2010-12-05 07:34:40 <xelister> for each expected success
718 2010-12-05 07:34:47 <Diablo-D3> printing G and H and hash and target do nothing
719 2010-12-05 07:35:09 <xelister> you are checking g and h,  and hash and target are the ultimate information is solution good or bad
720 2010-12-05 07:35:29 <xelister> also, print device on which it was found - i.e. are the bad results always from second gpu
721 2010-12-05 07:35:36 <Diablo-D3> you're trying to say that java's implementation of sha256 is wrong
722 2010-12-05 07:35:52 <Diablo-D3> a sha256 impl used by millions of people every single day
723 2010-12-05 07:36:02 <Diablo-D3> xelister: hello!
724 2010-12-05 07:36:05 <Diablo-D3> pay attention!
725 2010-12-05 07:36:08 <xelister> as a side node,  java implementaton of one of crypto functions in fact  IS  wrong
726 2010-12-05 07:36:14 <Diablo-D3> [03:20:11] <CIA-87> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * rbf7d2dd / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Differenciate different devices with a number in addition to a name - http://bit.ly/f7Hrfl
727 2010-12-05 07:36:19 <Kiba> bob182 is an ass.
728 2010-12-05 07:36:28 <xelister> Diablo-D3: list?
729 2010-12-05 07:36:34 <Diablo-D3> xelister: for bad blocks
730 2010-12-05 07:36:49 <xelister> that is a stupid way to debug... why not just print device name always
731 2010-12-05 07:37:05 <Diablo-D3> xelister: because AMD is stupid and gives all devices the same name
732 2010-12-05 07:37:20 <xelister> then name then in your code [0] [1] as m0m's does
733 2010-12-05 07:37:31 <Diablo-D3> THATS WHAT I DID YOU MORON
734 2010-12-05 07:37:36 <Diablo-D3> PAY FUCKING ATTENTION
735 2010-12-05 07:37:39 <xelister> "list only devices > 1"
736 2010-12-05 07:37:46 <xelister> "list all, with names"
737 2010-12-05 07:37:50 <Diablo-D3> ?
738 2010-12-05 07:37:53 <Diablo-D3> no you idiot
739 2010-12-05 07:38:04 <Diablo-D3> it should only say devices above 1 had bad blocks when you run it
740 2010-12-05 07:38:17 <Diablo-D3> Added Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     E8500  @ 3.16GHz (#1) (2 CU, 1x vector, local work size of 64)
741 2010-12-05 07:38:18 <Diablo-D3> Block 1 found on ATI RV770 (#2) at 3:32:30 AM
742 2010-12-05 07:38:20 <Diablo-D3> see the fucking change?
743 2010-12-05 07:38:25 <xelister> oh. So make more fucking sense. English motherfucker, do. you. speak. it?
744 2010-12-05 07:38:42 <Diablo-D3> apparently YOU dont
745 2010-12-05 07:38:51 <Diablo-D3> it should list only devices > 1
746 2010-12-05 07:39:00 <Diablo-D3> if it lists 1, then theres something VERY wrong with sdk 2.1
747 2010-12-05 07:39:27 <xelister> btw, 1 is the CPU
748 2010-12-05 07:39:34 <xelister> no wait, you flag it out. nm
749 2010-12-05 07:39:40 <Diablo-D3> yes, I flag it out
750 2010-12-05 07:39:46 <Diablo-D3> I just have it on for me so I can have two devices
751 2010-12-05 07:39:50 <Diablo-D3> it isnt replicating the bug fo rme
752 2010-12-05 07:39:53 <Diablo-D3> only you experience it
753 2010-12-05 07:40:22 <xelister> well I guess the bug may be: In 2 threaded programs, when used in XYZ way, OpenCL programs will produce wrong results on core>1
754 2010-12-05 07:40:35 <Diablo-D3> wrong.
755 2010-12-05 07:40:45 <Diablo-D3> because this is basic opencl usage
756 2010-12-05 07:40:54 <Diablo-D3> not only that, "threaded program" makes no sense here
757 2010-12-05 07:40:58 <xelister> btw, its still unsure whether m0m's version is somehow avoiding this bug, when run as 1 /process/ per core
758 2010-12-05 07:41:01 <Diablo-D3> queues are created in a thread and then only used by that thread
759 2010-12-05 07:41:12 <xelister> bugs usually do not make sense... expected things do not work
760 2010-12-05 07:41:14 <Diablo-D3> xelister: its not avoiding it
761 2010-12-05 07:41:17 <Diablo-D3> it just never tells you
762 2010-12-05 07:43:09 <xelister> btw, I can give bounty of say... 200 BTC, if you add some automation shit to miner (probably easy)
763 2010-12-05 07:43:21 <xelister> assuming first I will have miner working *really stable*
764 2010-12-05 07:43:25 <Diablo-D3> theres nothing to automate.
765 2010-12-05 07:45:17 <xelister> current git version (on testnet, with pure svn bitcoind) generates tons of
766 2010-12-05 07:45:28 <xelister> ERROR: Invalid block found on Cypress (#2) at 9:45:04 AM, possible driver or hardware issue
767 2010-12-05 07:45:29 <xelister> ERROR: Invalid block found on Cypress (#2) at 9:45:04 AM, possible driver or hardware issue
768 2010-12-05 07:45:31 <xelister> Block 1 found on Cypress (#2) at 9:45:04 AM
769 2010-12-05 07:45:32 <xelister> ERROR: Invalid block found on Cypress (#2) at 9:45:07 AM, possible driver or hardware issue
770 2010-12-05 07:45:34 <xelister> ERROR: Invalid block found on Cypress (#2) at 9:45:07 AM, possible driver or hardware issue
771 2010-12-05 07:45:40 <Diablo-D3> all #2?
772 2010-12-05 07:45:48 <xelister> yes.  also, correct block is from #2 too.
773 2010-12-05 07:46:05 <xelister> 2nd correct block is also #2
774 2010-12-05 07:46:08 <Diablo-D3> that explains your problem then
775 2010-12-05 07:46:19 <Diablo-D3> try with sdk 2.2
776 2010-12-05 07:46:40 <xelister> with SDK 2.2 your miner  eats 400% OF MY GOD DAMNED CPU! woot?
777 2010-12-05 07:46:54 <Diablo-D3> just test the fucking thing
778 2010-12-05 07:47:31 <xelister> all bad blocks, and all good blocks, are from #2. Btw, both GPUs are loaded (aticonfig monitor)
779 2010-12-05 07:47:41 <xelister> so far, with sdk 2.1
780 2010-12-05 07:47:51 <xelister> Block 5 found on Cypress (#1) at 9:47:43 AM
781 2010-12-05 07:48:09 <xelister> so all bad blocks are from #2,  and good blocks happen on both CPU #2 and #1
782 2010-12-05 07:48:11 <xelister> gpu
783 2010-12-05 07:48:21 <Diablo-D3> as it should
784 2010-12-05 07:48:24 <Diablo-D3> now try 2.2
785 2010-12-05 07:49:02 <xelister> ok
786 2010-12-05 07:49:29 <xelister> huuuh.
787 2010-12-05 07:49:42 <xelister> Started at Dec 5, 2010 9:49:08 AM
788 2010-12-05 07:49:43 <xelister> ERROR: Invalid block found on Cypress (#2) at 9:49:10 AM, possible driver or hardware issue
789 2010-12-05 07:49:44 <xelister> ERROR: Invalid block found on Cypress (#2) at 9:49:11 AM, possible driver or hardware issue
790 2010-12-05 07:49:46 <xelister> ERROR: Invalid block found on Cypress (#2) at 9:49:12 AM, possible driver or hardware issue
791 2010-12-05 07:49:47 <xelister> ERROR: Invalid block found on Cypress (#2) at 9:49:13 AM, possible driver or hardware issue
792 2010-12-05 07:49:49 <xelister> ERROR: Invalid block found on Cypress (#2) at 9:49:13 AM, possible driver or hardware issue
793 2010-12-05 07:49:50 <xelister> ERROR: Failed to queue kernel, error -52
794 2010-12-05 07:49:52 <xelister> ^-- on SDK 2.2
795 2010-12-05 07:50:11 <xelister> never seen that before, even when trying your miner with sdk 2.2
796 2010-12-05 07:50:21 <Diablo-D3> opencl went insane
797 2010-12-05 07:50:46 <xelister> now it appears to run
798 2010-12-05 07:50:56 <xelister> it works like SHIT btw, 300M instead 530, 400% cpu use
799 2010-12-05 07:51:11 <Diablo-D3> does it bitch about CPU #2?
800 2010-12-05 07:51:12 <Diablo-D3> er
801 2010-12-05 07:51:38 <xelister> yes, it also reports only GPU#2. ERROR: Invalid block found on Cypress (#2) ... ; No good blocks found so far
802 2010-12-05 07:52:07 <xelister> Block 1 found on Cypress (#1) at 9:51:29 AMat 9:51:29 AM, possible driver or hardware issue
803 2010-12-05 07:52:16 <xelister> (20 errors later) ERROR: Failed to queue kernel, error -52
804 2010-12-05 07:52:19 <Diablo-D3> hrrm.
805 2010-12-05 07:52:24 <Diablo-D3> are you still on that broken 10.9?
806 2010-12-05 07:52:41 <xelister> yea
807 2010-12-05 07:52:46 <xelister> allagedly broken
808 2010-12-05 07:52:52 <Diablo-D3> update to 10.11
809 2010-12-05 07:52:56 <xelister> :{
810 2010-12-05 07:53:10 <Diablo-D3> if you want it debugged, then you're going to do it.
811 2010-12-05 07:53:13 <xelister> but, why. m0m's. does. NOT. appear. to. have. this. problems
812 2010-12-05 07:53:23 <Diablo-D3> _appear_ being the key word
813 2010-12-05 07:53:26 <Diablo-D3> he never checks the results
814 2010-12-05 07:54:11 <xelister> ok I will tru stupid .11 :{
815 2010-12-05 07:54:32 <xelister> Diablo-D3: but why your miner goes to shit with sdk 2.2, eating all the CPU and now also throwing -52 error
816 2010-12-05 07:54:49 <Diablo-D3> its not my miner
817 2010-12-05 07:54:56 <Diablo-D3> any opencl app will go nuts under 2.2
818 2010-12-05 07:55:09 <Diablo-D3> they're busy waiting instead of blocking
819 2010-12-05 07:55:10 <xelister> m0m's doesnt eat all cpu like this
820 2010-12-05 07:55:14 <Diablo-D3> it does
821 2010-12-05 07:55:22 <Diablo-D3> 100% per m0 run
822 2010-12-05 07:55:41 <xelister> 0% cpu, I run 2 processes
823 2010-12-05 07:55:48 <Diablo-D3> on 2.2?
824 2010-12-05 07:56:13 <xelister> hmm wait wait, wrong
825 2010-12-05 07:56:18 <xelister> ok, indeed
826 2010-12-05 07:56:37 <xelister> although, m0m's x2 eats 300% cpu, and your miner eats like 400%   +/-20
827 2010-12-05 07:56:45 <Diablo-D3> every blocked wait will consume 100% thread time on 2.2
828 2010-12-05 07:56:47 <xelister> anyway, sdk 2.1 is the way to go
829 2010-12-05 07:56:49 <Diablo-D3> with m0, thats 2
830 2010-12-05 07:56:52 <Diablo-D3> one per process
831 2010-12-05 07:57:00 <Diablo-D3> with mine, thats three per gpu, so thats 6
832 2010-12-05 07:57:16 <xelister> ok but you consume 400% (on 4 core cpu, 2 core gpu) not 200%.   And m0m's consume ~300%
833 2010-12-05 07:57:26 <xelister> ah
834 2010-12-05 07:57:34 <Diablo-D3> you cant consume 600% on only 400% cpu time
835 2010-12-05 07:57:39 <Diablo-D3> if you had 6 cores, it would
836 2010-12-05 07:57:49 <Diablo-D3> and m0's consumes around 200%
837 2010-12-05 07:57:54 <Diablo-D3> your kernel is probably accounting wrong
838 2010-12-05 07:58:06 <Diablo-D3> and 2.2 may or may not have extra shit running as well
839 2010-12-05 07:58:11 <Diablo-D3> in other threads of it's own
840 2010-12-05 07:58:13 <Diablo-D3> so who knows
841 2010-12-05 08:00:21 <Diablo-D3> now with brocks problem
842 2010-12-05 08:00:30 <Diablo-D3> I probably need to change the error message
843 2010-12-05 08:00:32 <Diablo-D3> it shouldnt be one
844 2010-12-05 08:00:42 <Diablo-D3> it should actually be used to control when I output block found
845 2010-12-05 08:02:06 <xelister> also, please print hash of found block!
846 2010-12-05 08:02:18 <xelister> its important to then known which blocks finally made it to main chain etc
847 2010-12-05 08:02:19 <Diablo-D3> xelister: no.
848 2010-12-05 08:02:27 <Diablo-D3> no its not important.
849 2010-12-05 08:02:37 <Diablo-D3> because if bitcoin returns true, it DID make it into the chain
850 2010-12-05 08:02:38 <Diablo-D3> afiact
851 2010-12-05 08:02:45 <Diablo-D3> *afaict
852 2010-12-05 08:03:43 <Diablo-D3> ooh debian has 10.11 now
853 2010-12-05 08:08:10 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: no
854 2010-12-05 08:08:31 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: no what
855 2010-12-05 08:08:39 <MT`AwAy> even after bitcoin returns true, block can be rejected by the other peers
856 2010-12-05 08:08:50 <Diablo-D3> yeah, only if that happens
857 2010-12-05 08:08:57 <Diablo-D3> but returning false isnt an error condition
858 2010-12-05 08:10:40 <Kiba> satoshi responded to wikileak controversy
859 2010-12-05 08:10:47 <AAA_awright> Link
860 2010-12-05 08:13:02 <Kiba> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1735.msg26999#msg26999
861 2010-12-05 08:17:51 <Kiba> AAA_awright: I think social rules dictate that we follow the leader's words.
862 2010-12-05 08:18:01 <Kiba> well, pretty much voluntary..but yeah...
863 2010-12-05 08:19:04 <doublec> following that logic no one should use bitcoins since all we can get is pocket change
864 2010-12-05 08:20:05 <Kiba> blah, Satoshi went to all this trouble creating a serect identity for his projecvt
865 2010-12-05 08:20:16 <TheAncientGoat> Secret identity?
866 2010-12-05 08:20:17 <CIA-87> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * rbb6416d / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java :
867 2010-12-05 08:20:19 <Kiba> shouldn't he get a little wish respect
868 2010-12-05 08:20:42 <AAA_awright> What, exactly, needs growing?
869 2010-12-05 08:20:51 <AAA_awright> Is there any code we're missing?
870 2010-12-05 08:20:52 <Kiba> TheAncientGoat: some people theorize that Satoshi is a serect identity
871 2010-12-05 08:21:06 <Kiba> AAA_awright: secrurity aduit, finding holes, etc?
872 2010-12-05 08:21:27 <AAA_awright> Features wise though... Wouldn't the proposal only help for auditing?
873 2010-12-05 08:21:29 <CIA-87> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * rcfa9175 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Whoops accidently left unwanted debug code in - http://bit.ly/hIe3RQ
874 2010-12-05 08:21:38 <AAA_awright> Enough eyes make all bugs shallow or something
875 2010-12-05 08:21:59 <Kiba> AAA_awright: ummm...secruity threat from the US government
876 2010-12-05 08:22:10 <Kiba> well
877 2010-12-05 08:22:16 <AAA_awright> Wouldn't that be good?
878 2010-12-05 08:22:19 <Kiba> Satoshi actually say something out of technical development
879 2010-12-05 08:22:38 <Kiba> AAA_awright: he believed that it will destroy the economy and the network
880 2010-12-05 08:23:10 <AAA_awright> I'm not following either argument and he seems to be the only one stating that so far (I think?)
881 2010-12-05 08:23:39 <Kiba> Nope.
882 2010-12-05 08:24:02 <theymos> Kiba: Satoshi is in the top 5 for hours spent online on the forum. He's Always Watching.
883 2010-12-05 08:24:53 <Kiba> theymos: ummm...
884 2010-12-05 08:25:14 <Kiba> not really
885 2010-12-05 08:25:20 <Kiba> he's not the top 5
886 2010-12-05 08:25:42 <Kiba> you spend more time on the forum than me
887 2010-12-05 08:25:58 <Kiba> I am in second place
888 2010-12-05 08:26:03 <theymos> Oh. He must have changed his online status to hidden. He was just below nelisky.
889 2010-12-05 08:26:07 <Diablo-D3> lol
890 2010-12-05 08:26:22 <Diablo-D3> so I wonder if xel's bug really is the driver
891 2010-12-05 08:26:26 <Diablo-D3> no one else can replicate it
892 2010-12-05 08:26:29 <Kiba> lol?
893 2010-12-05 08:26:59 <Kiba> Apperantly, I am a loud person
894 2010-12-05 08:30:25 <Kiba> as a bitcoiner...I am prone to worrying about the health of bitcoin
895 2010-12-05 08:33:23 <Kiba> ;;bc,calc 90000
896 2010-12-05 08:33:24 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 90000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 4 days, 11 hours, 5 minutes, and 6 seconds
897 2010-12-05 08:52:04 <CIA-87> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r1cb884b / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java :
898 2010-12-05 08:52:21 <genjix> point me to a small 64x64 bitcoin logo plz?
899 2010-12-05 08:52:37 <genjix> where can I get satoshis ones?
900 2010-12-05 08:52:42 <genjix> the ones everyone uses
901 2010-12-05 08:52:55 <Diablo-D3> I wonder what happened to xel
902 2010-12-05 08:55:22 <theymos> genjix: I have 80px and 48px, but no 64px.
903 2010-12-05 08:55:32 <genjix> tthta fine :)
904 2010-12-05 08:55:58 <genjix> *that's
905 2010-12-05 08:58:16 <theymos> http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/6341/bitcoin.png Want the 80px one?
906 2010-12-05 08:58:39 <theymos> (These images are in the source.)
907 2010-12-05 08:59:49 <genjix> thanks
908 2010-12-05 09:00:06 <theymos> Here's 80px: http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/6423/bitcoin80.png
909 2010-12-05 09:00:09 <genjix> that'll do. I don't need anything fancy :p
910 2010-12-05 09:00:22 <genjix> thanks theymos  ;)
911 2010-12-05 09:13:27 <Hogofwar> ,,bc,calc 90000
912 2010-12-05 09:13:28 <gribble> (bc,calc <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given current difficulty of [bc,diff], is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/[bc,diff]*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
913 2010-12-05 09:13:46 <Hogofwar> >_>
914 2010-12-05 09:13:55 <theymos> ;;bc,calc 90000
915 2010-12-05 09:13:57 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 90000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 4 days, 11 hours, 5 minutes, and 6 seconds
916 2010-12-05 09:14:01 <Hogofwar> ohhh
917 2010-12-05 09:14:23 <Hogofwar> damn 4 days of destoying my computer >_> just for 50
918 2010-12-05 09:15:14 <Yefloa__> ati drivers are pain in the butt to install.
919 2010-12-05 09:15:31 <theymos> What are you using to get 90,0000 khps? That seems high.
920 2010-12-05 09:16:39 <Xunie> I'm getting 90,000 hashes per sec on an old PC. :P
921 2010-12-05 09:17:13 <Xunie> ;;bc,calc 90
922 2010-12-05 09:17:14 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 90 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 12 years, 11 weeks, 4 days, 21 hours, 8 minutes, and 13 seconds
923 2010-12-05 09:17:33 <Xunie> ;;bc,calc 10000
924 2010-12-05 09:17:34 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 10000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 5 weeks, 5 days, 3 hours, 45 minutes, and 58 seconds
925 2010-12-05 09:17:37 <theymos> Still probably better than lottery odds.
926 2010-12-05 09:17:46 <Hogofwar> yeah :P
927 2010-12-05 09:17:54 <Hogofwar> using an ati hd 4800
928 2010-12-05 09:18:12 <Xunie> I'm curious as to what my whole setup uses.
929 2010-12-05 09:18:31 <Yefloa__> fucking ati drivers on fuckign linux
930 2010-12-05 09:18:40 <Hogofwar> how the hella re you getting taht on an old pc (unless our definitions of old are different)
931 2010-12-05 09:19:54 <Xunie> Hogofwar, "old" as in 6 years, Celeron, 256 MB, running headless Ubuntu Server and acting as a high-performance router --- that kinda old.
932 2010-12-05 09:20:33 <Xunie> How much hashes per hour do you think my 2Mhz Atari 600XL can get? :P
933 2010-12-05 09:20:57 <Hogofwar> oh ubuntu is faster than windows though :P
934 2010-12-05 09:21:20 <theymos> He said hashes per second. 90 khash/s.
935 2010-12-05 09:21:29 <Hogofwar> ohhh
936 2010-12-05 09:21:41 <Hogofwar> DAmn
937 2010-12-05 09:21:45 <Hogofwar> Stupid me.
938 2010-12-05 09:22:31 <Xunie> If I was getting 90 000 khash/s, I would be getting 10000000 khash/s on my new PC.
939 2010-12-05 09:23:12 <Hogofwar> :P
940 2010-12-05 09:37:17 <Hogofwar> can m0's or diablo's miner join up in a pooled mining server?
941 2010-12-05 09:37:20 <genjix> can I always guarantee that a bitcoin address will be 34 characters long (I think so yes, but I'm just maing absolute certain)
942 2010-12-05 09:38:06 <Hogofwar> yes
943 2010-12-05 09:38:11 <genjix> kk :)
944 2010-12-05 09:38:19 <Hogofwar> oh wait
945 2010-12-05 09:38:25 <Hogofwar> I think it can be variable...
946 2010-12-05 09:38:32 <Hogofwar> I saw thats omewhere...
947 2010-12-05 09:38:51 <Hogofwar> not sure though
948 2010-12-05 09:39:17 <UukGoblin> Xunie, does it have enough memory to hold the intermediate sha variables? ;-)
949 2010-12-05 09:40:05 <Xunie> IT has like 20 K or something. :+)
950 2010-12-05 09:40:33 <Xunie> I should get the 40 K memory upgrade so I have 64 K.
951 2010-12-05 09:40:50 <UukGoblin> 10x that should be enough for everyone
952 2010-12-05 09:41:40 <genjix> I made it 60 just in case then
953 2010-12-05 09:42:47 <theymos> genjix: Addresses can be 25-34 characters long. 33-character addresses are actually pretty common.
954 2010-12-05 09:43:06 <genjix> ok 34 upper limit. thanks
955 2010-12-05 09:43:36 <theymos> Testnet addresses can be 35 characters, if you ever might support those.
956 2010-12-05 09:43:50 <nathan7> Xunie: 20+40=64?
957 2010-12-05 09:45:23 <Xunie> nathan7, no, but I'm guessing the memory size is by the power of two.
958 2010-12-05 09:45:29 <nathan7> =p
959 2010-12-05 09:45:32 <Xunie> ???_???
960 2010-12-05 09:45:39 <nathan7> 11:40:05 <@Xunie> IT has like 20 K or something. :+)
961 2010-12-05 09:46:20 <Xunie> Yeah yeah, rub it in...