1 2010-12-12 00:00:02 <[Waterfox]> qweb|Anybody interested in pretty good hosting, going at 20 BTC/month (negotiable)?: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2218
  2 2010-12-12 00:00:20 <Kiba> already have what I need...
  3 2010-12-12 00:00:33 <Granttt> or one could do the famous "subprime market" one, with "Credit-Default-Swaps". In our case that would be "Mining-Default-Swaps", one side of the trade would pay a fixed % payment (of the face value of the contract) to the other side over a predefined period of time. If the "bet" does default, the other side would have to make a 100% onetime payment to the other side.
  4 2010-12-12 00:00:49 <[Waterfox]> qweb|Kiba: hmm, I hope I'll get someone else
  5 2010-12-12 00:01:43 <[Waterfox]> qweb|Kiba: what's an easy way to start off?
  6 2010-12-12 00:01:55 <[Waterfox]> qweb|The Faucet only gave me 0.05 BTC.
  7 2010-12-12 00:02:00 <Kiba> sell something for download
  8 2010-12-12 00:02:10 <[Waterfox]> qweb|Kiba: like what?
  9 2010-12-12 00:02:17 <Kiba> like original arts
 10 2010-12-12 00:02:53 <[Waterfox]> qweb|The main [productive] thing I do on the web is editing stuff @ Wikipedia.
 11 2010-12-12 00:03:11 <[Waterfox]> qweb|...or not
 12 2010-12-12 00:03:14 <appamatto> Any news today?
 13 2010-12-12 00:03:31 <Kiba> PCWorld distrubs hornest nest
 14 2010-12-12 00:03:43 <Granttt> donpdonp: Thanks, didnt notice this one till now: OTHER: Bitcoin Difficulty Factor (BDF) << thats awesome :)
 15 2010-12-12 00:03:56 <Kiba> Growing Community Crash Bitcoin Project Server
 16 2010-12-12 00:04:33 <donpdonp> Granttt: people will bet on anything :)
 17 2010-12-12 00:05:32 <noagendamarket> You can get rebates for shopping at amazon :)
 18 2010-12-12 00:07:31 <Kiba> [Waterfox]|qweb: there's some very expensive bounty
 19 2010-12-12 00:08:03 <[Waterfox]> qweb|Kiba: ?
 20 2010-12-12 00:08:33 <Kiba> people put up a lot of money for things that they want
 21 2010-12-12 00:08:45 <Kiba> for example, android bitcoin client, 1740 BTC
 22 2010-12-12 00:09:47 <[Waterfox]> qweb|Kiba: I'm not that much of a coder, though
 23 2010-12-12 00:09:57 <[Waterfox]> qweb|I'm more into stuff like forum management
 24 2010-12-12 00:10:09 <Kiba> what that?
 25 2010-12-12 00:10:19 <Kiba> you could alway draw...
 26 2010-12-12 00:10:33 <Wx> web|Kiba: I have lots of experience with online community software like MediaWiki and MyBB
 27 2010-12-12 00:11:02 <Kiba> I have an entire encylopedia about games that are free software...
 28 2010-12-12 00:11:12 <Kiba> but I am saving my bitcoins, for now
 29 2010-12-12 00:11:18 <Kiba> would like to accumlate lot and lot of bitcoin
 30 2010-12-12 00:12:41 <Wx> web|Kiba: do you just keep them in your wallet or use something like MyBitcoin?
 31 2010-12-12 00:13:40 <Kiba> I keep them in my wallet
 32 2010-12-12 00:14:33 <Wx> web|A generous forum member is sending me 1 BTC.
 33 2010-12-12 00:15:20 <theymos> tcatm: If you keep any exact copies of my pages up, please disallow them in your robots.txt so that Google doesn't get confused about my cannonical URLs.
 34 2010-12-12 00:16:01 <Kiba> Wx|web: you have any skills in coding?
 35 2010-12-12 00:16:09 <Wx> web|Kiba: I'm not that bad
 36 2010-12-12 00:16:20 <Kiba> maybe you could make a website
 37 2010-12-12 00:16:35 <Wx> web|Kiba: in exchange for BTC?
 38 2010-12-12 00:16:56 <Kiba> building your own web service that accept bitcoin
 39 2010-12-12 00:17:11 <tcatm> theymos: fixed
 40 2010-12-12 00:17:11 <Wx> web|Kiba: ...like what?
 41 2010-12-12 00:17:19 <theymos> Thanks.
 42 2010-12-12 00:17:28 <Wx> web|there seems to be tons of BitCoin-centered services
 43 2010-12-12 00:18:09 <Kiba> not really
 44 2010-12-12 00:18:38 <Kiba> Wx|web: an automated pizza buying service
 45 2010-12-12 00:18:49 <Wx> web|Kiba: are you serious?
 46 2010-12-12 00:19:03 <Kiba> oh yes
 47 2010-12-12 00:19:08 <Wx> web|I believe there's a Python API for Domino's.
 48 2010-12-12 00:19:11 <Kiba> If you build that you would be awesome
 49 2010-12-12 00:19:18 <Kiba> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1268.0
 50 2010-12-12 00:19:21 <Kiba> here is a list of niches
 51 2010-12-12 00:19:43 <Kiba> that are currently unfulfilled
 52 2010-12-12 00:20:11 <Kiba> what you do is take a small fee in addition to the bitcoin neccesary to buy a pizza, no?
 53 2010-12-12 00:20:30 <Wx> web|Kiba: I don't want to be directly involved with the trading, though
 54 2010-12-12 00:20:47 <Kiba> eh?
 55 2010-12-12 00:20:55 <Kiba> all you doing is making it convenient to buy pizza
 56 2010-12-12 00:20:58 <Wx> web|maybe I can do it through something like Mt. Gox
 57 2010-12-12 00:21:17 <Wx> web|Kiba: I mean, not handling the exchanging of BitCoins for money
 58 2010-12-12 00:21:49 <Kiba> well, you will be responsible for getting enough money for people to buy pizza
 59 2010-12-12 00:23:19 <Kiba> Wx|web: well, if you're going to do an exchange site..I have an idea
 60 2010-12-12 00:23:32 <Kiba> I was planning to make na open source exchange
 61 2010-12-12 00:23:33 <Kiba> site
 62 2010-12-12 00:23:40 <Kiba> so that anybody can set up their own exchange
 63 2010-12-12 00:23:57 <Wx> web|Kiba: I find that there are too many exchanges/markets
 64 2010-12-12 00:23:59 <Kiba> and I would get everyone to pledge 5000 BTC
 65 2010-12-12 00:24:11 <Kiba> Wx|web: not enough in my opinion
 66 2010-12-12 00:24:14 <Kiba> many of them...sucks.
 67 2010-12-12 00:24:22 <Wx> web|Kiba: Mt. Gox looks ok
 68 2010-12-12 00:24:23 <Granttt> Kiba: open source exchange would be nice
 69 2010-12-12 00:24:45 <Kiba> it's not about looks
 70 2010-12-12 00:24:48 <Kiba> it's about convenience
 71 2010-12-12 00:24:59 <Wx> web|Kiba: I didn't mean appearance
 72 2010-12-12 00:25:06 <Kiba> Mt. Gox. offers an unprecedented level of convenience unmatched by any market
 73 2010-12-12 00:27:12 <Wx> web|so you like it?
 74 2010-12-12 00:27:46 <Kiba> well, pretty much.
 75 2010-12-12 00:28:01 <Kiba> but I think pizza buying service is a good idea
 76 2010-12-12 00:29:26 <Wx> web|Kiba: this is unbelievable: http://trkweb.dominos.com/orderstorage/GetTrackerData?Phone=5555555555
 77 2010-12-12 00:31:33 <Kiba> seem like the phone data are leak
 78 2010-12-12 00:31:34 <Kiba> ed
 79 2010-12-12 00:32:15 <Wx> web|Anyway, PHP's XML parser is terrible.
 80 2010-12-12 00:33:00 <Kiba> well,
 81 2010-12-12 00:33:04 <Kiba> if you want to make money
 82 2010-12-12 00:33:13 <Kiba> you gottach build things that people will buy
 83 2010-12-12 00:36:46 <Wx> web|Kiba: makes sense ...
 84 2010-12-12 00:37:13 <Wx> web|When you generate a new MyBitcoin address, does it still track your old one?
 85 2010-12-12 00:37:51 <tcatm> Yep.
 86 2010-12-12 00:38:57 <noagendamarket> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7pPajOvQGo  haha
 87 2010-12-12 00:39:11 <Kiba> one of the first transaction in bitcoin history
 88 2010-12-12 00:39:16 <Kiba> is buying a pizza for 10,000 BTC
 89 2010-12-12 00:40:27 <Kiba> at that time
 90 2010-12-12 00:40:32 <Kiba> it was worth 41 USD
 91 2010-12-12 00:42:09 <Wx> web|noagendamarket: got a mirror of the program?
 92 2010-12-12 00:42:38 <noagendamarket> no i cant find it
 93 2010-12-12 00:44:33 <Wx> web|noagendamarket: if you really want it, I'll give it to you for some BTC
 94 2010-12-12 00:45:03 <KwukDuck> puddinpop, you there?
 95 2010-12-12 00:46:41 <puddinpop> yeah
 96 2010-12-12 00:46:52 <noagendamarket> haha its probably in the way back machine
 97 2010-12-12 00:47:52 <KwukDuck> i tried the line in the .cl file
 98 2010-12-12 00:48:08 <KwukDuck> still no result and it pops an error about it too
 99 2010-12-12 00:48:14 <Wx> web|noagendamarket: well, I have it in my personal software archive
100 2010-12-12 00:49:54 <puddinpop> Well what is the error?
101 2010-12-12 00:50:09 <KwukDuck> i posted it in the pooled/remote mining topic
102 2010-12-12 00:51:17 <puddinpop> Well, that's pretty much self explanatory.  It can't enable the extension, so you won't be able to run it.
103 2010-12-12 00:51:35 <KwukDuck> anything that can be done about it?
104 2010-12-12 01:07:40 <Wx> web|I'm tired of Mt. Gox's payment widget.
105 2010-12-12 01:07:46 <Wx> web|I get jQuery errors.
106 2010-12-12 01:07:53 <Wx> web|I'll just use MyBitcoin.
107 2010-12-12 01:09:28 <Kiba> sned question to mtgox so he can fix it
108 2010-12-12 01:09:57 <doublec> puddinpop, are you around?
109 2010-12-12 01:17:00 <tcatm> http://bitcoincharts.com/howto/ anyone wanting to help a little? :)
110 2010-12-12 01:18:19 <Wx> web|tcatm: if you want ...
111 2010-12-12 01:20:33 <tcatm> ?
112 2010-12-12 01:20:38 <nanotube> tcatm: if you use a wiki people can do it easier
113 2010-12-12 01:20:48 <nanotube> why not stick the stuff into the wiki page i created on -otc (and have neglected so far... :) )
114 2010-12-12 01:21:52 <Wx> web|ah, server's down
115 2010-12-12 01:22:32 <nanotube> tcatm: this page, i'm talking about: http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/Bitcoin_Howto
116 2010-12-12 01:23:51 <tcatm> Locking would be annoying.
117 2010-12-12 01:24:38 <Wx> web|nanotube: so little users on that wiki
118 2010-12-12 01:24:44 <Wx> web|nanotube: did you set up MediaWiki?
119 2010-12-12 01:25:11 <nanotube> tcatm: locking?
120 2010-12-12 01:25:24 <tcatm> Simultaenous edits :)
121 2010-12-12 01:25:33 <Wx> web|tcatm: you mean edit conflicts?
122 2010-12-12 01:25:38 <nanotube> Wx|web: well, it's a private wiki for the bitcoin-otc.com project. and yes, as you can see with your own eyes... i set up mediawiki. :)
123 2010-12-12 01:25:45 <Wx> web|usually, locking = page protection
124 2010-12-12 01:26:01 <nanotube> tcatm: ah well... wikipedia deals with that just fine, it seems. :)
125 2010-12-12 01:27:18 <nanotube> tcatm: it's just that collaborative editing using a wiki tends to be easier than collaborative editing using... your html page. :)
126 2010-12-12 01:27:37 <nanotube> unless you have it in a git repo somewhere... i guess that could work if you grant a bunch of people commit rights.
127 2010-12-12 01:27:49 <nanotube> but still higher barrier than a wiki. i think. :)
128 2010-12-12 01:28:06 <Wx> web|http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php says it will take me 200 days to generate a block? Why?
129 2010-12-12 01:28:18 <tcatm> Wx|web: You have a too slow CPU ;)
130 2010-12-12 01:28:53 <tcatm> nanotube: I'd like that article to be finished soon and have it on bitcoincharts.
131 2010-12-12 01:29:39 <nanotube> tcatm: that would be cool - just saying it's easier to get collaborators if you use a wiki ( you can export it back to bitcoincharts periodically)
132 2010-12-12 01:29:50 <nanotube> Wx|web: what's your hash rate?
133 2010-12-12 01:36:40 <doublec> pooled server temporarily going down for an update. Clients should handle the connect/disconnect gracefully...
134 2010-12-12 01:37:51 <Kiba> what does this update do?
135 2010-12-12 01:38:15 <doublec> Kiba, http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1458.msg29252#msg29252
136 2010-12-12 01:39:25 <Wx> web|Kiba: is the BitDNS system functional now?
137 2010-12-12 01:39:31 <Kiba> awesome
138 2010-12-12 01:39:40 <Kiba> Wx|web: don't ask me. I am not the one who code it.
139 2010-12-12 01:39:45 <Kiba> I just starts the pledge drive
140 2010-12-12 01:39:51 <nanotube> Wx|web: we're working on the spec for the moment.
141 2010-12-12 01:40:02 <Kiba> nanotube: how close are we?
142 2010-12-12 01:40:06 <Kiba> I am kinda getting lost
143 2010-12-12 01:40:11 <Wx> web|nanotube: what he/she said
144 2010-12-12 01:40:47 <nanotube> Kiba: Wx|web: well, you can see what the latest status is (at least for the theymos+nanotube proposal) on the spec wiki: http://privwiki.dreamhosters.com/wiki/Bitcoin_DNS_System_Proposal
145 2010-12-12 01:41:01 <nanotube> we're still hammering out the spec. but i'm hoping to get to some dev work "any day now (tm)"
146 2010-12-12 01:41:36 <theymos> The binary record format I invested will allow you to store 6+ nameservers in the 120 bytes allowed.
147 2010-12-12 01:41:42 <theymos> invented*
148 2010-12-12 01:42:23 <Wx> web|nanotube: basically we'll be paying for meta domains with BTC
149 2010-12-12 01:43:01 <Kiba> no.
150 2010-12-12 01:43:19 <Kiba> I believe BTC is merely an option
151 2010-12-12 01:43:24 <Kiba> you could pay it with euro or whatever
152 2010-12-12 01:43:35 <Wx> web|... but you're paying
153 2010-12-12 01:43:39 <Wx> web|I'll look into it
154 2010-12-12 01:43:49 <T_X_> Kiba: how does the buying of the picture work exactly? so I'd send those fraction of a BTC to that address, and where would I get the proper download link from then?
155 2010-12-12 01:43:50 <doublec> pool server back up now
156 2010-12-12 01:44:09 <Kiba> T_X_: you pay it with domain coins, as far as my understanding goes
157 2010-12-12 01:45:04 <T_X_> Kiba: domain coins?
158 2010-12-12 01:45:10 <T_X_> I'm talking about http://pastecoin.com/download.php?file=52
159 2010-12-12 01:45:25 <Kiba> oh
160 2010-12-12 01:45:25 <T_X_> wasn't that yours?
161 2010-12-12 01:45:33 <Diablo-D3> T_X_: responded to and closed your bug
162 2010-12-12 01:45:33 <tcatm> T_X_: Pay coins, refresh page.
163 2010-12-12 01:45:34 <Kiba> you send a fraction of bitcoin
164 2010-12-12 01:45:37 <Kiba> refresh
165 2010-12-12 01:45:37 <T_X_> thought you'd been twittering this
166 2010-12-12 01:45:40 <Kiba> then download
167 2010-12-12 01:45:50 <Kiba> that work is indeed mine
168 2010-12-12 01:46:19 <T_X_> how does the pastecoin.com know it was me sending the BTCs... ah wait
169 2010-12-12 01:46:23 <T_X_> cookies or so?
170 2010-12-12 01:46:33 <Kiba> address
171 2010-12-12 01:46:34 <theymos> It gives you a unique address.
172 2010-12-12 01:46:34 <T_X_> and the BTC address is linked to my cookie?
173 2010-12-12 01:46:47 <Kiba> what theymos said
174 2010-12-12 01:47:37 <T_X_> yeah, well, but how does the webserver know that it was this laptop?
175 2010-12-12 01:48:15 <Kiba> because it knew that it received bitcoin from that address
176 2010-12-12 01:48:40 <Kiba> and if you refresh, I think it send information that the server check for
177 2010-12-12 01:48:43 <Kiba> in the POST
178 2010-12-12 01:49:38 <T_X_> I mean, if I were sending the BTC and then opening the same link I just posted on a different computer, I'd probably not get the download I guess
179 2010-12-12 01:49:48 <T_X_> I don't see any POST in here
180 2010-12-12 01:49:57 <theymos> It probably uses cookies. Why don't you check your cookies and see?
181 2010-12-12 01:49:58 <T_X_> it's just a GET for fetching this website, afaik
182 2010-12-12 01:50:13 <Kiba> that was a guess...
183 2010-12-12 01:51:52 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: you know what I was thinking?
184 2010-12-12 01:52:02 <T_X_> Kiba: sorry, didn't mean to sound offensive :)
185 2010-12-12 01:52:20 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: triple wide card, put a pipe in EVERYTHING
186 2010-12-12 01:52:24 <T_X_> theymos: yeah, there seems to be a PHPSESSID cookie
187 2010-12-12 01:52:33 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: each ram chip, each little vrm cluster, a couple on the gpu
188 2010-12-12 01:52:52 <theymos> I wonder how well it handles cases when the client doesn't support cookies. Probably badly.
189 2010-12-12 01:52:54 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: bend them to the back of the card, turn, and then exit at the end of the card
190 2010-12-12 01:53:07 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: then use two low speed 40mm fans
191 2010-12-12 01:53:37 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: so the heat is naturally drawn to the tip of the heatpipes which is at the vent exit
192 2010-12-12 01:53:47 <T_X_> Kiba: do you know who's responsible for pastecoin.com? I think it might be note worthy on the site, that people should not restart their browser or so when they use this service
193 2010-12-12 01:53:48 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: and then enclose the whole fucking thing as tight as possible
194 2010-12-12 01:53:54 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: no air leaks
195 2010-12-12 01:54:20 <T_X_> Kiba: well, anyway, I'll give pastecoin.com a try now :)
196 2010-12-12 01:54:42 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: so it blows all the heat right out the case
197 2010-12-12 01:55:52 <T_X_> Diablo-D3: argh, the drivers again?
198 2010-12-12 01:56:06 <Diablo-D3> T_X_: yup, theres no way for that error to logically occur on basically no allocations
199 2010-12-12 01:57:40 <T_X_> hmm, hmm
200 2010-12-12 01:59:19 <Diablo-D3> T_X_: try the newest beta driver
201 2010-12-12 01:59:33 <Diablo-D3> everyone whos gotten it working used the beta driver
202 2010-12-12 01:59:35 <Diablo-D3> and it worked
203 2010-12-12 02:00:40 <T_X_> Diablo-D3: can this also be caused due to some other broken stuff in the kernel? or can this error only occur if there's something broken in the nvidia driver?
204 2010-12-12 02:00:51 <Diablo-D3> the kernel has pretty much no control
205 2010-12-12 02:00:59 <Diablo-D3> I assume you have the nvidia kernel module matched for your driver
206 2010-12-12 02:01:17 <Diablo-D3> if the rest of the kernel was that broken, X wouldnt even startup right
207 2010-12-12 02:02:07 <Kiba> T_X_: genijx
208 2010-12-12 02:02:09 <Kiba> is responsible
209 2010-12-12 02:04:28 <T_X_> Diablo-D3: hmm, there "could" be a fair chance that something in my kernel might not run right... gimme second, need to restart
210 2010-12-12 02:09:00 <Zarutian> might be on or off topic: the types of contracts I know of: bounty (for instance, makeing a software feature, logo and so on), assurance contract (one or more parties are willing to provide a public good if people's payments pool for it goes above x amount before a cut off days otherwise the payments are returned minus tx cost), donations and auctions , what would be missing in this list?
211 2010-12-12 02:10:11 <Kiba> dunno
212 2010-12-12 02:20:41 <nanotube> Zarutian: how about the simple "i give you X, you give me Y" contract? :)
213 2010-12-12 02:20:52 <nanotube> the most prevalent of all. :)
214 2010-12-12 02:23:30 <T_X_> Diablo-D3: now after the restart, I don't have this CL_OUT_OF_RESSOURCES anymore
215 2010-12-12 02:23:38 <T_X_> however, I'm still having a segementation fault
216 2010-12-12 02:24:38 <Zarutian> nanotube: the simplest yes.
217 2010-12-12 02:27:14 <T_X_> I think the CL_... error was due to a partly crashed kernel module that I was doing development work on at the moment :). but even after the reboot the DiabloMiner crash still remains.
218 2010-12-12 02:27:42 <T_X_> didn't java usually display those nice backtraces in such cases?
219 2010-12-12 02:28:16 <T_X_> (sorry, still more the plain C and not Java guy ;) )
220 2010-12-12 02:29:52 <Diablo-D3> T_X_: usually yes
221 2010-12-12 02:30:02 <Diablo-D3> but it seems to be segfaulting in a way the jvm cant catch
222 2010-12-12 02:30:05 <Diablo-D3> so try using the beta drivers
223 2010-12-12 02:30:52 <T_X_> Diablo-D3: oki doki
224 2010-12-12 03:01:41 <T_X> Kiba: lol, I actually wanted to send 0.5 BTC to you, but looks like there are still 0.4 BTC on the pastecoin account
225 2010-12-12 03:02:49 <T_X> hmm, now it says, I'd have 0.1 BTC
226 2010-12-12 03:02:53 <T_X> I'm confused :D
227 2010-12-12 03:03:33 <T_X> [05:01:41] <T_X> Kiba: lol, I actually wanted to send 0.5 BTC to you, but looks like there are still 0.4 BTC on the pastecoin account
228 2010-12-12 03:04:20 <T_X> Kiba: did you get 0.1, 0.4 or 0.5 BTC?
229 2010-12-12 03:04:52 <Kiba> hmm
230 2010-12-12 03:04:59 <Kiba> I am not on my desktop right now
231 2010-12-12 03:05:17 <Kiba> thanks for the bacon
232 2010-12-12 03:05:24 <T_X> :P
233 2010-12-12 03:05:42 <T_X> anyway, not that important, just trying to figure out how pastecoin.com works :)
234 2010-12-12 03:06:11 <T_X> Kiba: and thanks for the nice pic ):
235 2010-12-12 03:06:12 <T_X> :)
236 2010-12-12 03:06:35 <T_X> s/):/:)
237 2010-12-12 03:08:01 <Kiba> each day, when I don't have school, I make it an effort to spend an hour on an art project
238 2010-12-12 03:09:12 <Kiba> my donation address is on the Kiba's Art thread if you think I deserve more than 0.5 BTC
239 2010-12-12 04:08:02 <hacim> i'm curious, how do I get a username/password? do I just... create one?
240 2010-12-12 04:08:56 <Kiba> hacim: bitcoin software?
241 2010-12-12 04:08:57 <Kiba> no
242 2010-12-12 04:09:09 <Kiba> you don't need a username/password for bitcoin
243 2010-12-12 04:09:34 <Kiba> it's a wallet
244 2010-12-12 04:09:36 <Kiba> not an account
245 2010-12-12 04:10:00 <Kiba> more like a vault that is accessible through your keys called addresses
246 2010-12-12 04:12:07 <hacim> i was reading http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=headless_client and it says "i used my username for my label"
247 2010-12-12 04:12:30 <hacim> i did have to set 'rpcpassword' in my config, i just set it to a random password
248 2010-12-12 04:12:48 <tcatm> I think that article is a bit outdated...
249 2010-12-12 04:13:38 <tcatm> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=accounts
250 2010-12-12 04:17:03 <hacim> ok, i have some reading to do
251 2010-12-12 04:17:55 <tcatm> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=api also good reading
252 2010-12-12 04:52:40 <appamatto> Howdy
253 2010-12-12 04:55:24 <nanotube> o/
254 2010-12-12 04:57:59 <appamatto> Thinking out app creation and destruction in bitx
255 2010-12-12 05:00:10 <appamatto> The xblock structure hash evalved a bit: http://bitx.appamatto.com/wiki?name=xblock
256 2010-12-12 05:01:42 <appamatto> hash=has
257 2010-12-12 06:25:04 <chuck> Hey, I'm looking through the Bitcoin website, and I'm kind of confused, what exactly are blocks?
258 2010-12-12 06:25:21 <theymos> Did you see http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=block ?
259 2010-12-12 06:26:27 <appamatto> chuck, welcome!  any specific questions about blocks?
260 2010-12-12 06:26:45 <chuck> theymos, just found that, i'm reading it
261 2010-12-12 06:29:19 <chuck> so what does it mean when my client is generating coins then?
262 2010-12-12 06:30:04 <theymos> You're trying to create a new block.
263 2010-12-12 06:30:18 <appamatto> Whenever you create a new block you are rewarded with 50 coins
264 2010-12-12 06:32:23 <chuck> but there's a pretty slim chance of that happening, right?
265 2010-12-12 06:32:33 <theymos> Yeah.
266 2010-12-12 06:33:28 <gribble> Error: The command "calc" is available in the Google and Math plugins.  Please specify the plugin whose command you wish to call by using its name as a command before "calc".
267 2010-12-12 06:33:28 <theymos> If you have 2000 khash/s: ,,(calc 2000)
268 2010-12-12 06:33:36 <theymos> ;;bc,calc 2000
269 2010-12-12 06:33:37 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 43 weeks, 3 days, 12 hours, 37 minutes, and 24 seconds
270 2010-12-12 06:34:11 <chuck> theymos, can I find the khash/s figure for a headless daemon? i can't find a command option that outputs it
271 2010-12-12 06:34:31 <theymos> The hash/s is output with getinfo.
272 2010-12-12 06:35:06 <theymos> Divide that by 1000 to get the value that you give to ;;bc,calc.
273 2010-12-12 06:35:20 <chuck> divide which? the difficulty?
274 2010-12-12 06:35:39 <theymos> "hashespersec" : 1931863
275 2010-12-12 06:35:50 <chuck> 0? lol
276 2010-12-12 06:36:23 <theymos> You haven't downloaded all the blocks, probably. There are ,,bc,blocks
277 2010-12-12 06:36:24 <gribble> 97150
278 2010-12-12 06:36:32 <chuck> ah, yep, that's it
279 2010-12-12 06:48:19 <chuck> i guess my question is what is the CPU work that's being done by clients, does every client do the CPU work or only the ones that are "generating coins", and why is that work being done?
280 2010-12-12 06:49:59 <appamatto> yes, only the generating ones
281 2010-12-12 06:50:28 <theymos> The point of it is to make it extremely difficult to modify past blocks, or create bad future blocks.
282 2010-12-12 06:51:11 <theymos> Check out http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=block_chain
283 2010-12-12 06:51:15 <appamatto> It's like a captcha, for computers
284 2010-12-12 06:51:37 <appamatto> With the difficulty of the captcha increasing so that only one person solves it in the world every 10 minutes
285 2010-12-12 06:52:16 <appamatto> That way in order to game the system you have to posess more than half of the CPU power
286 2010-12-12 06:53:39 <nanotube> theymos: that wiki page references a 100-block maturation period... wasn't it 120?
287 2010-12-12 06:53:59 <theymos> The extra 20 is added by the client for safety.
288 2010-12-12 06:54:06 <theymos> Only 100 is network-enforced.
289 2010-12-12 06:56:34 <nanotube> ah
290 2010-12-12 06:58:26 <doublec> ;;bc,calc 260000
291 2010-12-12 06:58:27 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 260000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 2 days, 8 hours, 13 minutes, and 12 seconds
292 2010-12-12 06:58:51 <theymos> Wow! The pool is huge.
293 2010-12-12 06:59:04 <doublec> yeah, wonder if it's the new opencl client
294 2010-12-12 07:01:33 <appamatto> the difficulty is getting out of hand :p
295 2010-12-12 07:02:43 <nanotube> bad for individuals, good for the network. :)
296 2010-12-12 07:03:42 <nanotube> doublec: i see it has become multithreaded, too
297 2010-12-12 07:03:50 <doublec> yes
298 2010-12-12 07:04:11 <theymos> Is there an option to limit CPUs?
299 2010-12-12 07:04:35 <doublec> yes. -threads=n
300 2010-12-12 07:04:48 <chuck> where's the opencl client?
301 2010-12-12 07:04:58 <doublec> ,,pool
302 2010-12-12 07:04:58 <gribble> No fancy GPU, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/bitcoin-pool/
303 2010-12-12 07:05:06 <doublec> in the win32 binary download
304 2010-12-12 07:06:51 <chuck> doublec, so it's not for mac?
305 2010-12-12 07:07:16 <doublec> chuck, no you'd have to build from source
306 2010-12-12 07:09:00 <theymos> chuck: If you're looking for a non-pool GPU miner, I think Diablo's Java miner might run on Mac.
307 2010-12-12 07:14:02 <appamatto> congrats on the generation, doublec
308 2010-12-12 07:14:18 <doublec> thanks appamatto
309 2010-12-12 07:22:14 <Orbixx> Is there a way to tell bitcoin to use a certain directory for the bitcoin user files?
310 2010-12-12 07:22:31 <theymos> -datadir=path
311 2010-12-12 07:22:44 <gribble> 13783.73565431
312 2010-12-12 07:22:44 <OneFixt> ;;bc,estimate
313 2010-12-12 07:23:21 <appamatto> Do you think there's a way to structure the transactions such that less of them need to be remembered?
314 2010-12-12 07:23:58 <theymos> No. Unspent transactions need to be remembered if you want to check for double-spending.
315 2010-12-12 07:25:48 <appamatto> Hmm, you don't think something clever could be done?
316 2010-12-12 07:25:54 <Orbixx> Some form of self-contained encryption for the data files would be quite handy with bitcoin.
317 2010-12-12 07:26:06 <appamatto> for instance, republishing the old transactions after a certain horizon
318 2010-12-12 07:28:03 <nanotube> appamatto: how would that result in having to remember less of them? :P
319 2010-12-12 07:28:12 <appamatto> it doesn't :p
320 2010-12-12 07:28:16 <nanotube> hehe
321 2010-12-12 07:28:53 <theymos> There is no way to answer the question, "Have any of these outputs been spent before?" if you don't have the entire set of unspent/spendable transactions. You could make transactions expire and therefore cause them to be unspendable, but I don't think anyone wants that for Bitcoin.
322 2010-12-12 07:30:14 <Diablo-D3> theymos, chuck: yes, people have confirmed mines working on osx again
323 2010-12-12 07:32:11 <appamatto> theymos, I wonder if you could trade the keys themselves
324 2010-12-12 07:32:42 <theymos> Instead of transactions?
325 2010-12-12 07:32:46 <appamatto> or something of that nature, to where the block chain wasn't mutating so often
326 2010-12-12 07:33:46 <Diablo-D3> appamatto: no
327 2010-12-12 07:33:51 <theymos> Any transacting out of the block chain allows double-spending.
328 2010-12-12 07:33:59 <Diablo-D3> because the system SHOULD reject a key that obviously isnt owned by an address
329 2010-12-12 07:34:11 <Diablo-D3> someone should double check that it does
330 2010-12-12 07:34:13 <appamatto> right
331 2010-12-12 07:35:14 <appamatto> and the minimum required to remember is the balance of each account
332 2010-12-12 07:35:24 <appamatto> and every account must be remembered in order to perform validation
333 2010-12-12 07:39:17 <appamatto> just thinking out loud.  I'm just wondering if clients really need to validate the entire system each individually
334 2010-12-12 07:40:34 <Diablo-D3> individually? probably not
335 2010-12-12 07:40:42 <Diablo-D3> but its once every ten minutes
336 2010-12-12 07:40:47 <Diablo-D3> and it takes, what, an entire second?
337 2010-12-12 07:41:05 <appamatto> hmm, but the number of transactions is only growing
338 2010-12-12 07:41:39 <appamatto> I guess divisibility is the cause of that
339 2010-12-12 07:43:06 <appamatto> Maybe there could be some garbage collection where the oldest block is taken, then transactions are grouped by account, and then the new block contains a transaction spending all of those into the account, allowing them to combine
340 2010-12-12 07:44:22 <appamatto> wouldn't really save much
341 2010-12-12 07:51:17 <theymos> You can't use balance sheets unless you eliminate script.
342 2010-12-12 07:51:29 <appamatto> is that the O_DROP etc.?
343 2010-12-12 07:51:34 <theymos> Yes.
344 2010-12-12 07:51:46 <appamatto> What is the point of script?
345 2010-12-12 07:52:03 <theymos> It allows great extensibility. I think it's a fantastic feature.
346 2010-12-12 07:52:46 <theymos> For example, you could make a transaction that can be redeemed with a password instead of a public key. Or require 3 out of 5 listed public keys to sign.
347 2010-12-12 07:52:58 <appamatto> hmm
348 2010-12-12 07:53:12 <appamatto> that seems like overkill
349 2010-12-12 07:53:33 <MT`AwAy> it has been abused quite a bit
350 2010-12-12 07:53:42 <MT`AwAy> (enough for the isStandard() method to be added)
351 2010-12-12 07:54:00 <theymos> No it hasn't... There have been only four non-standard transactions ever.
352 2010-12-12 07:54:21 <appamatto> So if you had balance sheets then you could garbage-collect blocks pretty easily, I guess
353 2010-12-12 07:56:06 <theymos> How does a new peer reconstruct the current balance sheet?
354 2010-12-12 07:56:21 <appamatto> I was thinking a balance sheet for each block
355 2010-12-12 07:56:45 <appamatto> And when you spent any of the balance of that block, the block got market as used and the balance sheet merged with the current block
356 2010-12-12 07:59:39 <appamatto> Is there a balance sheet proposal somewhere that I could look at?
357 2010-12-12 08:01:17 <appamatto> It looks like current proposals have a single balance sheet that holds all accounts
358 2010-12-12 08:01:28 <theymos> ByteCoin has a thread about it. But he wanted to have balance sheets and regular Bitcoin coexist, which turned out to be less efficient, so I think he gave up on it.
359 2010-12-12 08:03:04 <appamatto> that's an interesting idea, about including the hash of bsheet in block n into block n+1
360 2010-12-12 08:03:28 <zzop> Hi
361 2010-12-12 08:03:34 <appamatto> Hello!
362 2010-12-12 08:04:15 <zzop> Hey guys, I just found this Bitcoin project
363 2010-12-12 08:04:26 <zzop> If it is as cool as I'm reading, wow. Congratulations. :)
364 2010-12-12 08:04:37 <appamatto> zzop, it's pretty darn cool
365 2010-12-12 08:04:48 <zzop> It seems like it could really be something.
366 2010-12-12 08:04:58 <appamatto> It's definitely the start of something
367 2010-12-12 08:05:15 <zzop> I've downloaded the app and it's found 1 connection. And it keeps counting up something called "blocks". What are blocks?
368 2010-12-12 08:05:49 <theymos> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=block
369 2010-12-12 08:06:03 <Diablo-D3> zzop: information that you must have to use bitcoin.
370 2010-12-12 08:06:03 <zzop> theymos: Thank you!
371 2010-12-12 08:06:08 <Diablo-D3> theres currently about 90k of them
372 2010-12-12 08:06:25 <zzop> Is this able to run as a kind of system daemon without a GUI'd app (I am on Mac OS X)
373 2010-12-12 08:06:38 <MT`AwAy> zzop: use bitcoind for that
374 2010-12-12 08:06:41 <zzop> Diablo-D3: Does that mean that everybody has to know about every transaction? Is that sustainable?
375 2010-12-12 08:07:01 <appamatto> zzop, heh, I was just thinking about that problem :p
376 2010-12-12 08:07:04 <theymos> Clients don't need to know about transactions. Only generators. But client mode isn't totally finished, yet.
377 2010-12-12 08:07:05 <MT`AwAy> zzop: everyone's talking about dropping blocks which have become useless
378 2010-12-12 08:07:19 <zzop> MT`AwAy: How could you know for sure?
379 2010-12-12 08:07:44 <appamatto> zzop, but yes, everyone knows the complete history of the system because everyone polices the block chain
380 2010-12-12 08:08:00 <MT`AwAy> zzop: we know when a block no longer contains any useful information, we could drop those and only keep the headers for example (it's being discussed a lot lately)
381 2010-12-12 08:08:49 <theymos> "Forgetfulness" is not the main way of saving space. It will probably not be implemented for a long time, because it is somewhat unsafe. The main way is to just offload the work on generators: non-generators only need the block headers.
382 2010-12-12 08:09:09 <zzop> MT`AwAy: That's good. Because I think this is going to have some impressive use in low-bandwidth areas -- many African countries, for example (do you know that they currently trade cell phone minutes as currency in some states?)
383 2010-12-12 08:09:43 <appamatto> zzop, you could use bitcoin without any sort of involvement in the core network
384 2010-12-12 08:09:44 <MT`AwAy> zzop: well, anyway if you want to avoid having to download the blockchain you can also register on services such as mybitcoin
385 2010-12-12 08:09:55 <zzop> appamatto: Really
386 2010-12-12 08:09:56 <appamatto> it'd be like online banking
387 2010-12-12 08:09:56 <zzop> ?
388 2010-12-12 08:10:08 <appamatto> yes, mybitcoin as mentioned by MT`AwAy
389 2010-12-12 08:10:12 <zzop> Wow
390 2010-12-12 08:10:16 <MT`AwAy> it's just an example
391 2010-12-12 08:10:18 <zzop> I guess I'm misunderstanding something fundamental then
392 2010-12-12 08:10:26 <MT`AwAy> I think more of those services will appear in the future
393 2010-12-12 08:10:28 <appamatto> zzop, basically someone is running the real client on your behalf
394 2010-12-12 08:10:34 <zzop> appamatto: Aha
395 2010-12-12 08:10:50 <zzop> So you could literally integrate with "banks"
396 2010-12-12 08:10:59 <zzop> That's very interesting.
397 2010-12-12 08:11:02 <appamatto> Well, not the current banks
398 2010-12-12 08:11:10 <zzop> Sure, hence the quotation marks.
399 2010-12-12 08:11:25 <appamatto> but yes, bitcoin banks, or at least agents that manage your bitcoin addresses for you
400 2010-12-12 08:11:40 <MT`AwAy> I'm planning something similar :)
401 2010-12-12 08:11:47 <zzop> Damn, this is such a great idea. Have you guys ever gotten an audit from a  Bruce Schneier-type?
402 2010-12-12 08:11:59 <appamatto> Is that a software audit?
403 2010-12-12 08:12:02 <zzop> Yes
404 2010-12-12 08:12:09 <appamatto> I'm almost sure we would fail
405 2010-12-12 08:12:16 <MT`AwAy> and it's too expensive anyway
406 2010-12-12 08:12:16 <zzop> appamatto: Interesting. Why is that?
407 2010-12-12 08:12:29 <zzop> MT`AwAy: Well, it's such a compelling idea that you might get someone to do it for free.
408 2010-12-12 08:12:45 <appamatto> The software and protocol are both probably too complicated right now.  I think things are still shaking out
409 2010-12-12 08:12:50 <zzop> I already feel like I would be heartbroken if I found out that it had serious security vulnerabilities. God knows how I will feel when I start really using this :)
410 2010-12-12 08:13:01 <MT`AwAy> zzop: I do some auditing sometimes, but I wouldn't even look at the bitcoin software until it is tidied up a bit
411 2010-12-12 08:13:02 <thrashaholic> MT`AwAy: im a couple of weeks from something like that as well :)
412 2010-12-12 08:13:19 <appamatto> zzop, I don't think the idea or protocol have serious vulnerabilities, but the software probably has some vulnerabilities
413 2010-12-12 08:13:29 <zzop> Got it.
414 2010-12-12 08:13:35 <thrashaholic> so does cash in your wallet though
415 2010-12-12 08:13:43 <theymos> I'm not so sure Bitcoin would fail. A lot of effort has been put into making "remote attacker crashes the client" attacks impossible.
416 2010-12-12 08:13:59 <MT`AwAy> well, for example if you enable too many ips to access the rpc, even wth an ip, anyone can freeze the rpc
417 2010-12-12 08:14:09 <MT`AwAy> even with a password*
418 2010-12-12 08:14:14 <appamatto> everyone has the entire history, so even if there were something to happen it wouldn't mean everyone loses their btc or anything
419 2010-12-12 08:14:24 <zzop> theymos: A lot of eyes need to be looking at that code...
420 2010-12-12 08:14:42 <MT`AwAy> also we may have other clients by then :)
421 2010-12-12 08:14:47 <appamatto> zzop, it's much more likely that someone will build a better bitcoin and there will be a currency war
422 2010-12-12 08:14:47 <MT`AwAy> (I'm working on a bitcoin client right now)
423 2010-12-12 08:14:56 <zzop> Hey, have any of you ever tried forming local Bitcoin alliances -- to trade real goods and services?
424 2010-12-12 08:15:05 <zzop> appamatto: :-)
425 2010-12-12 08:15:09 <thrashaholic> there's no need for a "currency war" in that event
426 2010-12-12 08:15:12 <zzop> God we really live in interesting times.
427 2010-12-12 08:15:20 <MT`AwAy> zzop: there are already lots of people selling goods: http://www.bitcoin.org/trade
428 2010-12-12 08:15:40 <appamatto> zzop, hehe.  I'm working on an alternative system called bitx, which aims to support apps other than bitcoin on the same block chain
429 2010-12-12 08:15:52 <zzop> The Wikileaks and Bitcoin era. Damn fine times.
430 2010-12-12 08:16:00 <zzop> appamatto: Whoa. How?
431 2010-12-12 08:16:10 <zzop> MT`AwAy: Yes, but locally?
432 2010-12-12 08:16:16 <zzop> I mean that's where this is going to start having real power.
433 2010-12-12 08:16:56 <appamatto> zzop, basically a stripped down protocol that can include "ablocks" or app blocks from multiple apps and allow a miner to generate once and reap multiple benefits
434 2010-12-12 08:17:02 <MT`AwAy> zzop: transactions take about one hour to be "confirmed", it wouldn't be really good in physical transactions
435 2010-12-12 08:17:17 <zzop> I just Googled "bitcoin wikipedia" so I could have a writeup to send my non-tech friends, and am a bit disappointed by the result :(
436 2010-12-12 08:17:33 <zzop> appamatto: That's great.
437 2010-12-12 08:17:34 <appamatto> there is an article in the wikipedia incubator
438 2010-12-12 08:17:34 <theymos> 0 confirmations works fine in small-scale cases.
439 2010-12-12 08:17:54 <zzop> MT`AwAy: Ah, that's not so great. Can it be improved?
440 2010-12-12 08:18:06 <zzop> MT`AwAy: Because my mind was immediately drifting towards making a Bitcoin iPhone app
441 2010-12-12 08:18:32 <MT`AwAy> zzop: the main issue here is to protect against "double spending"
442 2010-12-12 08:18:35 <appamatto> zzop, it's possible to allow a variable block creation rate in a bitcoin-like application
443 2010-12-12 08:18:48 <zzop> MT`AwAy: I'll read up about that.
444 2010-12-12 08:18:54 <appamatto> if there were more blocks per unit time that might have a positive effect on confirmation confidence
445 2010-12-12 08:19:31 <MT`AwAy> zzop: solutions are being though of too :)
446 2010-12-12 08:19:46 <zzop> I guess the main point is that you CAN use this now.
447 2010-12-12 08:19:57 <MT`AwAy> but right now I'm more busy thinking about my ECC implementaion getting wrong public keys >.<
448 2010-12-12 08:20:14 <zzop> Could I pretty easily build a GUI on top of bitcoind ?
449 2010-12-12 08:20:15 <appamatto> zzop, yes, and compared with paypal, there are no chargebacks.  So it is infinitely better for some purposes :p
450 2010-12-12 08:20:25 <MT`AwAy> zzop: yep
451 2010-12-12 08:20:43 <zzop> MT`AwAy: And bitcoind is fairly low-resource? Could run on a mobile phone without heinous battery usage for example?
452 2010-12-12 08:20:56 <appamatto> I think someone has an android client
453 2010-12-12 08:21:01 <zzop> Oh!
454 2010-12-12 08:21:05 <MT`AwAy> zzop: no
455 2010-12-12 08:21:26 <thrashaholic> nobody has an android client that im aware of, otherwise i just lost my bounty.
456 2010-12-12 08:21:36 <MT`AwAy> zzop: the guy writing the android client (tcatm) for now is thinking about having bitcoind running on a computer, or having his client connect to a "bank-like" service
457 2010-12-12 08:21:46 <zzop> MT`AwAy: I was just thinking of the exact same thing
458 2010-12-12 08:21:48 <thrashaholic> yes that is the solution
459 2010-12-12 08:21:51 <zzop> MT`AwAy: That probably makes more sense.
460 2010-12-12 08:22:07 <thrashaholic> besides, you dont want your wallet and keys on a phone
461 2010-12-12 08:22:16 <MT`AwAy> if anyone wants to make a bitcoin client on mobile (iphone/android/etc) I can provide an API for the server counterpart
462 2010-12-12 08:22:17 <zzop> thrashaholic: That's right.
463 2010-12-12 08:22:23 <MT`AwAy> (and servers, too)
464 2010-12-12 08:22:30 <thrashaholic> there is already an api
465 2010-12-12 08:22:34 <zzop> MT`AwAy: Let me see if I can clear out some time; I'm very interested.
466 2010-12-12 08:22:41 <zzop> I wonder if I could write it in Titanium...
467 2010-12-12 08:22:51 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: there are some apis, but most are not aimed exactly at this kind of usage
468 2010-12-12 08:23:00 <MT`AwAy> zzop: I was thinking of using phonegap :p
469 2010-12-12 08:23:24 <zzop> MT`AwAy: Have you checked out Titanium? Compared to Phonegap it's a breath of fresh air. :)
470 2010-12-12 08:23:25 <appamatto> theymos, I think bsheets might be the way to go for my version
471 2010-12-12 08:23:41 <MT`AwAy> zzop: no time yet, I'm busy writing a bitcoin client for PC right now
472 2010-12-12 08:23:44 <appamatto> was there any downside to them, other than compatibility with the current bitcoin?
473 2010-12-12 08:23:46 <thrashaholic> i dont think theres a reason to even do "native" mobile apps
474 2010-12-12 08:24:10 <zzop> thrashaholic: The real reason is to make it look and feel beautiful. :)
475 2010-12-12 08:24:24 <thrashaholic> you can do this with html5 and css3
476 2010-12-12 08:24:39 <thrashaholic> the only reason not to is to have something downloadable from whatever market
477 2010-12-12 08:24:41 <zzop> thrashaholic: You can do approximations. :-)
478 2010-12-12 08:24:44 <thrashaholic> no
479 2010-12-12 08:24:47 <thrashaholic> you can do some wild shit
480 2010-12-12 08:24:55 <theymos> appamatto: I wouldn't be surprised if there's some implementation issue. It just sounds wrong to me. It's less space-efficient for clients than running in Merkle tree mode, too.
481 2010-12-12 08:25:08 <zzop> Show me. I've never seen a really convincing iOS 'emulation' on an HTML5 site
482 2010-12-12 08:25:23 <thrashaholic> one second
483 2010-12-12 08:25:25 <appamatto> theymos, what is the point of the Merkle tree?
484 2010-12-12 08:25:59 <theymos> appamatto: You can securely get the number of confirmations by downloading only the block headers and a handful of transactions in the same branch as your transactions.
485 2010-12-12 08:26:12 <thrashaholic> seen this: http://graphicpeel.com/cssiosicons ?
486 2010-12-12 08:26:19 <zzop> checking...
487 2010-12-12 08:26:26 <thrashaholic> in chrome or safari
488 2010-12-12 08:26:28 <thrashaholic> ff won't work
489 2010-12-12 08:27:00 <zzop> thrashaholic: Damn!
490 2010-12-12 08:27:03 <thrashaholic> yeah
491 2010-12-12 08:27:04 <zzop> thrashaholic: That's beautiful.
492 2010-12-12 08:27:07 <thrashaholic> that's the tip of the iceberg
493 2010-12-12 08:27:13 <zzop> thrashaholic: Slow as hell, but beautiful. :-)
494 2010-12-12 08:27:29 <thrashaholic> i've written nicer shit but am unable to show it to the public right now
495 2010-12-12 08:27:32 <appamatto> hmm, actually I don't see how you can prevent the duplicate usage of a signed transaction if you only have a balance
496 2010-12-12 08:27:47 <zzop> thrashaholic: Sounds like you should be the one designing this app then.
497 2010-12-12 08:28:12 <thrashaholic> i'm balls deep in erlang and DNS right now, and have lots of other stuff on the plate before that
498 2010-12-12 08:28:20 <zzop> thrashaholic: fair. :)
499 2010-12-12 08:28:25 <theymos> appamatto: Yeah; you can't. In a system without scripts, though, I don't know if this is a problem.
500 2010-12-12 08:28:28 <thrashaholic> maybe after the first of the year ill have time
501 2010-12-12 08:28:38 <thrashaholic> anyway....girlfriend time :)
502 2010-12-12 08:28:42 <zzop> Cheers thrashaholic
503 2010-12-12 08:28:53 <appamatto> theymos, for example, if you sign "I'm foo giving 5btc to bar" that could be used multiple times
504 2010-12-12 08:28:53 <zzop> Folks, quick question: Does "Generating Coins" actually get me a few free coins?
505 2010-12-12 08:29:07 <appamatto> theymos since it doesn't refer to a specific tx output
506 2010-12-12 08:29:18 <zzop> And how long does it take?
507 2010-12-12 08:29:30 <theymos> appamatto: True. You've found the flaw (probably one of many).
508 2010-12-12 08:29:56 <appamatto> theymos, I guess you'd keep a link to the block in which the balance last changed and reference that in your signed tx request
509 2010-12-12 08:30:09 <MT`AwAy> appamatto: that's why you need the merkle tree
510 2010-12-12 08:30:21 <MT`AwAy> so the same transaction cannot be used more than once
511 2010-12-12 08:30:31 <theymos> appamatto: Blocks change. You can't reference them.
512 2010-12-12 08:31:00 <appamatto> peeling off a block would peel off the bsheet
513 2010-12-12 08:31:00 <zzop> Also... I'm really curious: What is the development team structure like? Is there one main developer, or many now?
514 2010-12-12 08:31:18 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: it's ugly (the css icons, they don't look nice at all)
515 2010-12-12 08:31:40 <theymos> zzop: Satoshi wrote everything originally. A few developers now help with non-design stuff.
516 2010-12-12 08:31:46 <zzop> MT`AwAy: Are you looking at them in Safari?
517 2010-12-12 08:31:52 <MT`AwAy> zzop: nope, chromium
518 2010-12-12 08:31:56 <zzop> theymos: Is he still supporting it?
519 2010-12-12 08:32:04 <zzop> MT`AwAy: They look GREAT in Safari
520 2010-12-12 08:32:08 <theymos> zzop: Yes.
521 2010-12-12 08:32:13 <appamatto> theymos, let's say you had 50 btc and then you got 50 more in block 123abc.  Then the balance sheet would read "foo 123abc 100btc" until your balance changed
522 2010-12-12 08:32:17 <zzop> MT`AwAy: Although they both use WebKit don't they? Hmmm...
523 2010-12-12 08:32:34 <zzop> theymos: Does Satoshi lurk in here?
524 2010-12-12 08:32:40 <theymos> zzop: Never.
525 2010-12-12 08:32:44 <zzop> Interesting.
526 2010-12-12 08:32:46 <MT`AwAy> zzop: http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8164/chromiumoutput.png
527 2010-12-12 08:32:48 <zzop> Is he a real person? ;-)
528 2010-12-12 08:32:57 <appamatto> theymos, then you could refer to that specific block in you tx request, no?
529 2010-12-12 08:33:01 <theymos> zzop: Probably a pseudonym.
530 2010-12-12 08:33:01 <zzop> MT`AwAy: Oh yeah, that's totally fucked up.
531 2010-12-12 08:33:03 <MT`AwAy> zzop: maybe, but what's sure is his name is not Satoshi
532 2010-12-12 08:33:28 <appamatto> Are you sure his name isn't Satoshi Nakamoto?
533 2010-12-12 08:33:38 <MT`AwAy> appamatto: I'm sure it's not
534 2010-12-12 08:33:41 <zzop> Jesus, this is a great story. I'm amazed the NY Times hasn't picked up on it yet.
535 2010-12-12 08:33:50 <appamatto> MT, is there a reference?
536 2010-12-12 08:33:59 <MT`AwAy> zzop: http://shot.dns.st/http_full/graphicpeel.com/cssiosicons <- render in an almost unmodified webkit, looks better
537 2010-12-12 08:34:02 <doublec> zzop, I have bitcoind running on my phone
538 2010-12-12 08:34:17 <zzop> MT`AwAy: Yeah, that's almost proper.
539 2010-12-12 08:34:19 <doublec> zzop, it runs fine, doesn't use too much battery
540 2010-12-12 08:34:24 <zzop> doublec: Android?
541 2010-12-12 08:34:26 <theymos> appamatto: Then what if 123abc gets removed from the main chain? The later transaction will become invalid.
542 2010-12-12 08:34:27 <doublec> zzop, Nokia N900
543 2010-12-12 08:34:28 <MT`AwAy> appamatto: it's just not possible for Satoshi to be japanese, and highly unlikely he'd give his real name
544 2010-12-12 08:34:35 <zzop> doublec: OK, that's good to know.
545 2010-12-12 08:34:42 <MT`AwAy> seems like my font rendering is broken
546 2010-12-12 08:34:48 <zzop> doublec: But I agree with these guys that you wouldn't want your wallet stored locally on the phone
547 2010-12-12 08:34:55 <appamatto> theymos, yes, that's the point.  The tx request is contingent on nothing happening to your balance in between
548 2010-12-12 08:35:06 <zzop> MT`AwAy: Why do you say Just Not Possible? :-)
549 2010-12-12 08:35:20 <theymos> appamatto: Bitcoin is not contingent on that. Your transactions survive no matter what happens to blocks.
550 2010-12-12 08:35:21 <doublec> zzop, I like having my wallet stored on my phone
551 2010-12-12 08:35:24 <MT`AwAy> zzop: I live in Japan and know a lot about japanese people :p
552 2010-12-12 08:35:29 <appamatto> theymos, that might be a bug though
553 2010-12-12 08:35:37 <appamatto> or at least not a feature
554 2010-12-12 08:35:41 <zzop> MT`AwAy: You think the idea is too radical for Japan? I'm sure there are some radicals there...
555 2010-12-12 08:35:45 <MT`AwAy> doublec: that's a possible option with what I'm thinking about
556 2010-12-12 08:35:55 <appamatto> theymos, that block label wouldn't change for each block, just the ones that impact your balance
557 2010-12-12 08:36:08 <theymos> appamatto: I would not appreciate my transactions being lost due to network instability...
558 2010-12-12 08:36:24 <zzop> What is the real risk to you if your wallet is stolen?
559 2010-12-12 08:36:41 <theymos> zzop: All of your bitcoins will be gone.
560 2010-12-12 08:36:47 <doublec> You lose your coins, just like if you lose your real wallet
561 2010-12-12 08:36:51 <zzop> theymos: And if you have a backup?
562 2010-12-12 08:36:58 <theymos> Still gone.
563 2010-12-12 08:37:02 <doublec> So I keep an amount of coins on my phone I'm comfortable with losing
564 2010-12-12 08:37:04 <MT`AwAy> [18:35:43] <zzop> MT`AwAy: You think the idea is too radical for Japan? I'm sure there are some radicals there... <- I'm not talking about the idea but the app, the lack of japanese language, etc
565 2010-12-12 08:37:06 <zzop> theymos: Really? Why?
566 2010-12-12 08:37:12 <zzop> MT`AwAy: True.
567 2010-12-12 08:37:18 <theymos> zzop: The attacker will spend them. Transactions are irreversible.
568 2010-12-12 08:37:23 <zzop> Oh, right.
569 2010-12-12 08:37:27 <appamatto> theymos, it could only be lost if your last transaction got repealed
570 2010-12-12 08:37:30 <zzop> So it seems necessary to cryptographically secure one's wallet.
571 2010-12-12 08:37:52 <zzop> I'm surprised that's not built-in already.
572 2010-12-12 08:37:53 <appamatto> theymos, so let's say it doesn't update everytime you get money, but just every time you send money
573 2010-12-12 08:37:57 <MT`AwAy> doublec: I thought about how to do that, and it's possible (and easy) too :)
574 2010-12-12 08:38:47 <zzop> doublec: Why not just put the wallet into a tiny truecrypt image or something like this, and synchronize it? Or better yet, again, why isn't wallet encryption built-in? :-)
575 2010-12-12 08:39:08 <appamatto> theymos, that would be enough to disallow tx duplication, and the only downside would be if your last send got forked, but that could be reapplied using the same previous txn
576 2010-12-12 08:39:11 <pere> where should bitcoin but reports be sent?
577 2010-12-12 08:39:22 <pere> s/but/bug/
578 2010-12-12 08:39:27 <doublec> zzop, because I prefer having seperate wallets
579 2010-12-12 08:39:31 <zzop> doublec: Got it.
580 2010-12-12 08:39:35 <doublec> zzop, it's trivial to transfer coins around
581 2010-12-12 08:39:59 <zzop> Nevertheless, this is a problem that will need to be solved. It's also possible to steal someone's computer, after all. ;-)
582 2010-12-12 08:40:00 <appamatto> zzop, one cool bitcoin phenomenon is that people have tons of addresses
583 2010-12-12 08:40:02 <doublec> zzop, my phone is encrypted so not much problem of someone actually stealing my coins
584 2010-12-12 08:40:10 <doublec> zzop, I just don't currently back the wallet up
585 2010-12-12 08:40:17 <zzop> Understood.
586 2010-12-12 08:40:35 <zzop> appamatto: Yeah I was just reading about that.
587 2010-12-12 08:41:05 <theymos> pere: Email satoshin@gmx.com .
588 2010-12-12 08:41:23 <zzop> Satoshin also uses a GMX account :) Interesting.
589 2010-12-12 08:42:04 <zzop> theymos: No bug tracker?
590 2010-12-12 08:42:08 <theymos> No.
591 2010-12-12 08:42:19 <appamatto> MT, I used to live in Japan, I know that most Japanese people can't speak English like Satoshi, but don't you think he could be a Japanese-American gone back to Japan or maybe raised in the US but ethnically Japanese, etc.?
592 2010-12-12 08:42:31 <pere> theymos: thank you.
593 2010-12-12 08:43:12 <appamatto> It'd be really funny if kiba was Satoshi
594 2010-12-12 08:43:32 <appamatto> since kiba is a Japanese word :p
595 2010-12-12 08:44:03 <appamatto> or maybe I'm Satoshi but I don't know it due to some Fight Club-esque mental condition
596 2010-12-12 08:44:17 <MT`AwAy> appamatto: other details are just wrong
597 2010-12-12 08:44:23 <MT`AwAy> first, why is there no version of bitcoin in japanese ?
598 2010-12-12 08:44:32 <MT`AwAy> why would he write his first name first in the about box ?
599 2010-12-12 08:44:35 <appamatto> because Satoshi's first language is English?
600 2010-12-12 08:44:50 <MT`AwAy> why would he give his real name while all the other informations are hidden ?
601 2010-12-12 08:45:06 <theymos> Why was his PGP public key created a month before starting the project?
602 2010-12-12 08:45:11 <appamatto> because he's paranoid but knows that real names establish credibility?
603 2010-12-12 08:45:44 <appamatto> If he wanted a pseudonym he should've chosen John Galt :p
604 2010-12-12 08:46:28 <OneFixt> you could ask him if it's his real name =)
605 2010-12-12 08:47:13 <theymos> Who is Hal on the forum? Satoshi seemed to know of him.
606 2010-12-12 08:47:14 <johndrinkwater> Suggest you can sign his pgp key, but you need to meet him first..
607 2010-12-12 08:48:38 <appamatto> Hmm, there are almost no results for Satoshi unrelated to bitcoin
608 2010-12-12 08:49:14 <theymos> You can clearly see that he appears on Earth a month or two before the genesis block was created.
609 2010-12-12 08:49:15 <MT`AwAy> appamatto: I never found anyone with his name anywhere, and it seems to only be used in the context of bitcoin
610 2010-12-12 08:50:02 <MT`AwAy> everything seems to hint to "Nakamoto Satoshi" exists only for the purpose of bitcoin
611 2010-12-12 08:50:39 <appamatto> holy crap
612 2010-12-12 08:50:50 <appamatto> but he uses that name for the very first mention of bitcoin
613 2010-12-12 08:51:18 <appamatto> maybe we need to use a programming style analysis program and then compare it to samples from other open source projects
614 2010-12-12 08:51:29 <theymos> Like all other attacks, he anticipated an attack against the Bitcoin developer.
615 2010-12-12 08:52:02 <appamatto> haha
616 2010-12-12 08:52:14 <MT`AwAy> also satoshi's email is a free gmx.com email
617 2010-12-12 08:52:24 <appamatto> he's just going to be on a yacht somewhere, the richest person in the world next to ArtForz
618 2010-12-12 08:52:31 <appamatto> in 20 years
619 2010-12-12 08:53:09 <appamatto> Is he using Tor?
620 2010-12-12 08:54:10 <appamatto> http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt/2009-January/004249.html
621 2010-12-12 08:54:30 <MT`AwAy> possibly
622 2010-12-12 08:55:42 <appamatto> You'd think he'd actually be in this room
623 2010-12-12 08:56:38 <MT`AwAy> and laughing at me because his name really is Satoshi
624 2010-12-12 08:56:39 <MT`AwAy> :D
625 2010-12-12 08:56:43 <appamatto> haha
626 2010-12-12 08:57:37 <zzop> vistomail...
627 2010-12-12 08:57:49 <appamatto> Maybe his real name is Prometheus
628 2010-12-12 08:58:00 <MT`AwAy> http://social.wakoopa.com/software/bitcoin/review/83437 <- lol
629 2010-12-12 08:58:40 <appamatto> I hope the cat actually wrote that
630 2010-12-12 08:59:00 <appamatto> Yeah, I think you're right
631 2010-12-12 08:59:28 <appamatto> Someone with the nuts to just come out with bitcoin without consulting with anyone, without a single reference in any open source project
632 2010-12-12 08:59:40 <zzop> appamatto: That's the way the world will change. :)
633 2010-12-12 08:59:44 <zzop> Fucking love these times.
634 2010-12-12 08:59:53 <MT`AwAy> :D
635 2010-12-12 09:00:11 <zzop> But seriously -- no bug tracker? come on guys. :-)
636 2010-12-12 09:00:18 <MT`AwAy> anyawy does anyone here have a strong knowledge of EC crypto and help me fix my public key generation ?
637 2010-12-12 09:00:34 <MT`AwAy> zzop: I'll have one with my bitcoin client :p
638 2010-12-12 09:00:52 <zzop> MT`AwAy: What platforms are you supporting?
639 2010-12-12 09:00:59 <MT`AwAy> zzop: linux/mac/windows
640 2010-12-12 09:01:05 <zzop> Super.
641 2010-12-12 09:01:07 <MT`AwAy> (using Qt)
642 2010-12-12 09:01:09 <zzop> GTK? :-)
643 2010-12-12 09:01:10 <zzop> OK
644 2010-12-12 09:02:06 <zzop> Is IRC really used to bootstrap this thing?
645 2010-12-12 09:02:09 <MT`AwAy> anyway in Japanese I can think of how "Nakamoto" is written (inside+origin), but what about Satoshi? There are roughly 55 common methods to write it
646 2010-12-12 09:02:15 <MT`AwAy> zzop: yep, it's the fastest
647 2010-12-12 09:02:20 <MT`AwAy> if you want you can run bitcoin with -noirc flag
648 2010-12-12 09:02:37 <zzop> Any way to see how many nodes are active on the network?
649 2010-12-12 09:02:38 <appamatto> MT, yeah, there are a few that are popular
650 2010-12-12 09:02:57 <zzop> MT`AwAy: PS, will your client have UPnP support?
651 2010-12-12 09:03:01 <theymos> zzop: Count the peers on IRC to get a rough number. Look at the peers listed in addr.dat for more accuracy.
652 2010-12-12 09:03:04 <zzop> MT`AwAy: And maybe... Randomized ports?
653 2010-12-12 09:03:07 <MT`AwAy> zzop: the irc channel contains ~850 users, add all the users who can't/don't connect to IRC and you get an estimate
654 2010-12-12 09:03:19 <appamatto> zzop, you also can calculate the global hash rate
655 2010-12-12 09:03:23 <zzop> MT`AwAy: Well that's really not a lot is it.
656 2010-12-12 09:03:28 <MT`AwAy> zzop: randomized port is impossible with bitcoin protocol for now
657 2010-12-12 09:03:47 <MT`AwAy> uPnP wouldn't be difficult, could you post about it in https://bitcoin.in/forum/index.php/topic,4.0.html ?
658 2010-12-12 09:03:54 <appamatto> going to hit the sack guys.  Thanks for the discussion
659 2010-12-12 09:04:00 <MT`AwAy> appamatto: good night
660 2010-12-12 09:04:00 <zzop> MT`AwAy: Sure!
661 2010-12-12 09:04:02 <zzop> cheers appamatto
662 2010-12-12 09:04:05 <theymos> MT`AwAy: Why? Bitcoin supports arbitrary ports.
663 2010-12-12 09:04:15 <theymos> Bad for addr propagation?
664 2010-12-12 09:04:20 <MT`AwAy> theymos: you can't receive incoming connections if you're not in port 8333
665 2010-12-12 09:04:34 <MT`AwAy> ie, the bitcoin bootstrap/protocol propagates only the ip, not the port
666 2010-12-12 09:04:46 <theymos> The port is propagated.
667 2010-12-12 09:04:59 <MT`AwAy> (well, for the protocol I'm not sure yet, still working on the wallet)
668 2010-12-12 09:05:01 <MT`AwAy> ok
669 2010-12-12 09:05:12 <zzop> MT`AwAy: So I'll post about both :)
670 2010-12-12 09:05:13 <MT`AwAy> well, would need to add the port to irc bootstrap then
671 2010-12-12 09:05:33 <MT`AwAy> wouldn't be too difficult (for example use the port as username so it's in the WHO reply)
672 2010-12-12 09:05:43 <MT`AwAy> or make the port part of the nickname
673 2010-12-12 09:05:57 <theymos> MT`AwAy: Already done. Port+IP is encoded in the nick.
674 2010-12-12 09:06:05 <MT`AwAy> theymos: not in 0.3.18
675 2010-12-12 09:06:08 <theymos> Yes.
676 2010-12-12 09:06:12 <zzop> :D
677 2010-12-12 09:06:31 <theymos> The nicks are not random numbers/letters. They are encoded IPs/Ports.
678 2010-12-12 09:06:39 <MT`AwAy> strMyName = strprintf("x%u", GetRand(1000000000));
679 2010-12-12 09:07:13 <MT`AwAy> ok, I see EncodeAddress
680 2010-12-12 09:07:35 <MT`AwAy> using the now famous base58
681 2010-12-12 09:07:59 <MT`AwAy> (which means I probably should move base58 functions to a common lib)
682 2010-12-12 09:08:23 <theymos> Now that you mention it, though, I believe Bitcoin will not make outgoing connections to non-standard ports if it has any peers on standard ports.
683 2010-12-12 09:08:28 <zzop> MT`AwAy: I look forward to your client with randomized ports and UPnP support :)
684 2010-12-12 09:09:06 <MT`AwAy> theymos: the only problem with this might be ipv6 nah? if it's a normal irc server, nick limit is 31 chars
685 2010-12-12 09:09:21 <MT`AwAy> need to check if this fits ...
686 2010-12-12 09:09:52 <theymos> Room for IPv6 is in addr messages, at least. We'll probably have moved away from IRC by then.
687 2010-12-12 09:10:19 <MT`AwAy> I'm planning if we do bitdns to add the ability to find nodes using dns queries :p
688 2010-12-12 09:10:36 <zzop> Where does bitcoin store the wallets file on MacOS X?
689 2010-12-12 09:10:41 <zzop> And its settings, for that matter...
690 2010-12-12 09:10:56 <theymos> ~/Library/Application Support/Bitcoin/
691 2010-12-12 09:11:00 <zzop> Thanks
692 2010-12-12 09:11:10 <zzop> I thought it would be sloppier than that!
693 2010-12-12 09:11:17 <zzop> I was expecting ~/.bitcoin or something ;-)
694 2010-12-12 09:11:57 <theymos> I think it uses a wx function to find the default settings directory.
695 2010-12-12 09:12:24 <zzop> Dope. I guess that's one good thing about WX :)
696 2010-12-12 09:13:06 <zzop> Why is everyone on the forums worried about an 'association' with Wikileaks anyway?
697 2010-12-12 09:13:29 <theymos> Satoshi said that Wikileaks should not use Bitcoin, as it would destroy the network.
698 2010-12-12 09:13:55 <zzop> Why would it destroy the network?
699 2010-12-12 09:14:06 <MT`AwAy> zzop: too young, probably
700 2010-12-12 09:14:20 <zzop> BTW, *genius*: http://ubitio.us/file/upload
701 2010-12-12 09:14:27 <zzop> Who made that?
702 2010-12-12 09:15:02 <MT`AwAy> zzop: there are many clones around the web, like http://pastecoin.com/
703 2010-12-12 09:15:20 <theymos> The network architechture physically can't handle it, either. Propagation would be intolerable if that many users joined, I would bet. And we don't have enough CPU power to defend against big attackers. And only 22 seednodes are online. And Bitcoin code is currently vulnerable to DoS attacks...
704 2010-12-12 09:15:20 <zzop> That's so smart.
705 2010-12-12 09:15:59 <zzop> theymos: Better get those things in order, I have a feeling this is going to really pick up next year.
706 2010-12-12 09:16:54 <zzop> I wonder if the EFF would help this project.
707 2010-12-12 09:17:04 <theymos> They accept Bitcoin donations, at least.
708 2010-12-12 09:17:13 <zzop> :D
709 2010-12-12 09:17:31 <zzop> Yes but I mean, it would be nice if they helped put together a donor pool or something.
710 2010-12-12 09:18:13 <theymos> The EFF has gotten quite a few donations through Bitcoin: http://blockexplorer.com/address/1MCwBbhNGp5hRm5rC1Aims2YFRe2SXPYKt
711 2010-12-12 09:20:37 <zzop> Did the value of a bitcoin really go from almost nothing to 50 cents?
712 2010-12-12 09:20:48 <zzop> Or was that a temporary anomaly?
713 2010-12-12 09:21:14 <theymos> 50 cents was a temporary anomaly. It did go naturally up to ~30 cents, though.
714 2010-12-12 09:21:37 <theymos> I used to sell at 0.003. :(
715 2010-12-12 09:21:43 <zzop> :D
716 2010-12-12 09:24:30 <zzop> How about userbase increases? What is the increase looking like month-by-month?
717 2010-12-12 09:25:04 <theymos> You can check this page: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?action=stats
718 2010-12-12 09:27:45 <zzop> Great
719 2010-12-12 09:27:51 <zzop> And BTW this Tahoe-LAFS filesystem looks nice too :)
720 2010-12-12 09:37:51 <zzop> Has anyone here spoken with The Pirate Bay people about donating servers and CPU power to the project?
721 2010-12-12 09:39:23 <MT`AwAy> zzop: cpu power is useless
722 2010-12-12 09:39:26 <MT`AwAy> gpu power is the thing
723 2010-12-12 09:39:48 <MT`AwAy> and the project is likely too small/weak to interest people like TPB
724 2010-12-12 09:41:59 <zzop> Well, I wouldn't be too sure...
725 2010-12-12 09:42:04 <zzop> This seems right up their alley.
726 2010-12-12 09:42:14 <zzop> And really, GPU power? :-)
727 2010-12-12 09:45:25 <MT`AwAy> with a CPU you generate at most 15000khash/sec, while a GPU generates much more easily
728 2010-12-12 09:48:06 <zzop> Do the current clients use the GPU at all?
729 2010-12-12 09:48:29 <theymos> Not the official client. There are GPU miners available.
730 2010-12-12 10:51:14 <thrashaholic> doublec: you have an n900? nice...i was happy to hear they finally made that sucker a proper phone
731 2010-12-12 10:51:28 <thrashaholic> too damn expensive for my tastes, though
732 2010-12-12 10:52:11 <thrashaholic> and isnt there some issue with the frequencies it uses for 3g?
733 2010-12-12 11:23:54 <doublec> thrashaholic, no issues with the frequencies that I'm aware of
734 2010-12-12 11:24:02 <doublec> thrashaholic, but the freqs for NZ are different to the US
735 2010-12-12 11:24:20 <doublec> thrashaholic, I don't think they support the common US 3G freq
736 2010-12-12 11:25:25 <Diablo-D3> doesnt nz use euro freqs?
737 2010-12-12 11:26:21 <thrashaholic> right,  they support only one of the US 3g frequencies iirc
738 2010-12-12 11:26:24 <doublec> Diablo-D3, uses 2100 and some areas of 900
739 2010-12-12 11:26:35 <thrashaholic> tmobile's i believe
740 2010-12-12 11:27:09 <thrashaholic> i loved my n800 though
741 2010-12-12 11:27:17 <thrashaholic> damn fine piece of hardware
742 2010-12-12 11:27:50 <thrashaholic> i like my g2 though
743 2010-12-12 11:28:12 <doublec> I like the N900, being able to run pretty much anything linux on it.
744 2010-12-12 11:28:20 <doublec> The Android phones are pretty nice too though
745 2010-12-12 11:28:33 <doublec> The new Nexus is tempting
746 2010-12-12 11:28:57 <doublec> particularly since work will pay for it
747 2010-12-12 11:29:40 <doublec> Nokia have all but deprecated the N900 already sadly
748 2010-12-12 11:35:34 <thrashaholic> nokia is on its way out
749 2010-12-12 11:35:49 <thrashaholic> at least here in the us, they have no compelling offerings
750 2010-12-12 11:50:13 <xelister_> heh apparently some policeman in USA beat up polish wemen that refused to pick up a dog poo (because it was not her dog that did it)
751 2010-12-12 11:50:45 <xelister_> it reminds me of that time white policeman punched in face some "nigger girl" as he probably would describe her
752 2010-12-12 11:50:46 <thrashaholic> is it on video?
753 2010-12-12 11:50:54 <noagendamarket> the poop?
754 2010-12-12 11:51:02 <xelister_> 'dog shit'
755 2010-12-12 11:51:04 <thrashaholic> the whole incident
756 2010-12-12 11:51:07 <noagendamarket> haha
757 2010-12-12 11:51:20 <xelister_> it's good to know that such freedom loving people like usa gov. are [trying to be] the police of world
758 2010-12-12 11:51:27 <thrashaholic> cops here are dicks but i kinda doubt that story just on the face of it
759 2010-12-12 11:51:46 <xelister_> the polish dog walker - I dont know ; the whiteass policeman beating a girl in face for no good reason - yes
760 2010-12-12 11:52:00 <thrashaholic> he probaby had a reason
761 2010-12-12 11:52:05 <noagendamarket> he wanted her to polish his boots
762 2010-12-12 11:52:20 <noagendamarket> *groans
763 2010-12-12 11:52:25 <thrashaholic> she was probably a loud mouthed hood rat spouting off shit
764 2010-12-12 11:52:27 <xelister_> no she wanted to not be arrested or something. but she was not fighting him or anything
765 2010-12-12 11:52:33 <thrashaholic> rule number 1: dont fuck with the cops
766 2010-12-12 11:52:33 <xelister_> yes
767 2010-12-12 11:52:40 <xelister_> well you americans are fucking slaves
768 2010-12-12 11:52:51 <thrashaholic> i am no slave sir
769 2010-12-12 11:52:58 <thrashaholic> keep your assumptions to yourself :)
770 2010-12-12 11:53:04 <xelister_> even in corrupted shit contries like poland, the police oppresion is more settled and civilized it seems
771 2010-12-12 11:53:38 <xelister_> police quality:  russia < damn usa < poland < ?
772 2010-12-12 11:53:53 <Diablo-D3> japan
773 2010-12-12 11:53:59 <Diablo-D3> they're somewhere near the top
774 2010-12-12 11:54:05 <xelister_> woot
775 2010-12-12 11:54:48 <thrashaholic> all of africa < all of south america < uk < russia < usa, etc...etc...
776 2010-12-12 11:55:11 <xelister_> wonder if there is any country when police basically is in fact the good guys
777 2010-12-12 11:55:16 <xelister_> japans you say? something else/more?
778 2010-12-12 11:55:18 <noagendamarket> australia still has a queen
779 2010-12-12 11:55:18 <thrashaholic> canadian police are probably near the top
780 2010-12-12 11:55:38 <noagendamarket> ffs so does canada lol
781 2010-12-12 11:55:44 <thrashaholic> yup
782 2010-12-12 11:55:48 <thrashaholic> well
783 2010-12-12 11:55:53 <thrashaholic> not quebec ;P
784 2010-12-12 11:56:02 <noagendamarket> na they are french
785 2010-12-12 11:56:26 <noagendamarket> who dont take shit lying down...oh wait..
786 2010-12-12 11:56:31 <thrashaholic> lol
787 2010-12-12 11:56:34 <noagendamarket> lol
788 2010-12-12 11:56:44 <thrashaholic> "for sale: french surplus military rifles - never fire, dropped once"
789 2010-12-12 11:56:51 <thrashaholic> fired*
790 2010-12-12 11:56:58 <Diablo-D3> fail
791 2010-12-12 11:57:50 <thrashaholic> ahhh the french.
792 2010-12-12 11:58:22 <xelister_> don't they hand out white flags kits in addition to the rifles
793 2010-12-12 11:58:42 <Diablo-D3> http://www.tomshardware.com/news/macbook-pro-radeon-mcp-gpu,11781.html
794 2010-12-12 11:58:44 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: ^
795 2010-12-12 11:59:16 <thrashaholic> xelister_: yes, but they usually mistake them for scarves...
796 2010-12-12 11:59:31 <ArtForz> I still dont get why the F AMD crippled 32-bit integer adds for 69xx
797 2010-12-12 11:59:33 <noagendamarket> or cheese
798 2010-12-12 11:59:42 <xelister_> Diablo-D3: as Radeons are more popular, the more I hope their drivers will seize to be utter crap
799 2010-12-12 11:59:43 <thrashaholic> leave cheese out of this!
800 2010-12-12 11:59:54 <ArtForz> compared to the floating point units a 32-bit adder is fucking tiny
801 2010-12-12 12:02:11 <ArtForz> even a 6-wide carry lookahead adder is damn small
802 2010-12-12 12:03:51 <xelister_> ArtForz: perhaps they thought its not so used/needed
803 2010-12-12 12:04:04 <xelister_> in normal games and shit
804 2010-12-12 12:04:16 <xelister_> bitcoin mining is probably not their main market ;)
805 2010-12-12 12:21:51 <finnomenon> does anybody know a way to ignore cmake's version while running it on bitcoin-pool ?
806 2010-12-12 12:23:16 <Diablo-D3> xelister_: except compute is a big thing of theirs
807 2010-12-12 12:23:22 <ArtForz> another bitcoin mention in latest wikileaks article on /.
808 2010-12-12 12:24:48 <thrashaholic> great
809 2010-12-12 12:29:18 <noagendamarket> artforz link?
810 2010-12-12 12:31:00 <MT`AwAy> noagendamarket: http://slashdot.org/
811 2010-12-12 12:31:26 <thrashaholic> wow, what a helper
812 2010-12-12 12:31:40 <finnomenon> dr. sarcasto
813 2010-12-12 12:31:46 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: it's the last article, not hard to find
814 2010-12-12 12:31:47 <thrashaholic> is it in the article or some random comment?
815 2010-12-12 12:31:53 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: in the article
816 2010-12-12 12:32:02 <KwukDuck> how much khash would an ati hd 6850 get?
817 2010-12-12 12:32:02 <MT`AwAy> "PCWorld wonders if the WikiLeaks' money woes could lead to great adoption of Bitcoin [...]"
818 2010-12-12 12:32:03 <thrashaholic> we're fucked.
819 2010-12-12 12:32:28 <ArtForz> only 3rd and 4th link in artcile
820 2010-12-12 12:33:05 <noagendamarket> wtf?
821 2010-12-12 12:33:52 <ArtForz> no direct links, wo we shouldn't get /.ed
822 2010-12-12 12:34:04 <noagendamarket> it will either be really great or kill bitcoin instantly
823 2010-12-12 12:35:13 <ArtForz> or not do much at all
824 2010-12-12 12:36:42 <noagendamarket> I mean it cant actually do much to bitcoin itself but the exchanges can easily be shut down
825 2010-12-12 12:37:31 <noagendamarket> thats why they need to be open sourced
826 2010-12-12 12:37:36 <CIA-84> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * ra68ad42 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Made logging output more consistent - http://bit.ly/dEBTe6
827 2010-12-12 12:38:49 <thrashaholic> my exchange is open source ;)
828 2010-12-12 12:39:03 <thrashaholic> h2h bitchez
829 2010-12-12 12:39:55 <KwukDuck> ArtForz, you have any clue how HD6850 would perform?
830 2010-12-12 12:40:15 <Diablo-D3> KwukDuck: half way between 5770 and 5850
831 2010-12-12 12:40:32 <Diablo-D3> actually, closer to just a 5770
832 2010-12-12 12:40:40 <Diablo-D3> 3D performance like a 5850 though
833 2010-12-12 12:40:40 <noagendamarket> haha
834 2010-12-12 12:40:50 <ArtForz> ~170Mh/s
835 2010-12-12 12:40:57 <KwukDuck> k ty :)
836 2010-12-12 12:41:04 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: make a fucking table
837 2010-12-12 12:41:09 <Diablo-D3> so we can keep this shit straight
838 2010-12-12 12:41:20 <ArtForz> err, I already have one
839 2010-12-12 12:41:24 <Diablo-D3> url now
840 2010-12-12 12:41:40 <KwukDuck> a list would be nice :)
841 2010-12-12 12:42:14 <ArtForz> btw, looks like 6970 will end up about 5% faster than 5850 for mining
842 2010-12-12 12:42:47 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: I dunno, jury is still possibly out on that
843 2010-12-12 12:42:52 <ArtForz> not really
844 2010-12-12 12:42:56 <Diablo-D3> 2.3 could magically make unicorns come out of my ass
845 2010-12-12 12:42:58 <Diablo-D3> srsly
846 2010-12-12 12:43:02 <ArtForz> 1536SP, 900Mhz
847 2010-12-12 12:43:04 <KwukDuck> how do you calculate those speeds?
848 2010-12-12 12:43:13 <ArtForz> 5536 ops/hash
849 2010-12-12 12:43:13 <Diablo-D3> KwukDuck: he uses very small tweezers
850 2010-12-12 12:43:25 <noagendamarket> I get over 9000
851 2010-12-12 12:43:49 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah, but how the fuck does it perform so well on 3D tasks?
852 2010-12-12 12:43:54 <doublec> ;;bc,calc 300000
853 2010-12-12 12:43:55 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 300000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 2 days, 0 hours, 43 minutes, and 26 seconds
854 2010-12-12 12:43:56 <ArtForz> = 249 Mh/s
855 2010-12-12 12:44:17 <ArtForz> well, because for ALUs*clock it's about == 5870
856 2010-12-12 12:44:31 <Diablo-D3> the chip die is smaller, it uses less watts, its cheaper
857 2010-12-12 12:44:41 <ArtForz> it just takes a pretty big hit from adds now taking up 2 VLIW slots
858 2010-12-12 12:44:46 <ArtForz> smaller?
859 2010-12-12 12:44:50 <ArtForz> it's bigger than a 5870
860 2010-12-12 12:44:54 <ArtForz> and uses more power
861 2010-12-12 12:44:54 <Diablo-D3> and the the new optimized tesselator will be great in a few years
862 2010-12-12 12:45:08 <Diablo-D3> oh
863 2010-12-12 12:45:10 <Diablo-D3> the 6970
864 2010-12-12 12:45:12 <ArtForz> yep
865 2010-12-12 12:45:16 <Diablo-D3> I thought you said 6870
866 2010-12-12 12:45:22 <ArtForz> no
867 2010-12-12 12:45:28 <Diablo-D3> yeah, that should rape the fuck out of everything in 3D
868 2010-12-12 12:45:32 <ArtForz> but theres not much difference speedwise for hashing
869 2010-12-12 12:45:57 <Diablo-D3> well
870 2010-12-12 12:46:07 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: I still dont wanna damn 69xx yet
871 2010-12-12 12:46:16 <ArtForz> for hashing 6970 is < 10% faster than 6870
872 2010-12-12 12:46:19 <Diablo-D3> not until 2.3 comes out and 10.12
873 2010-12-12 12:46:26 <KwukDuck> ;;bc,calc 70000
874 2010-12-12 12:46:27 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 70000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 week, 1 day, 16 hours, 49 minutes, and 4 seconds
875 2010-12-12 12:46:42 <ArtForz> well, keep hoping
876 2010-12-12 12:47:18 <ArtForz> with adds taking 1 slot it'd still only be a bit faster than a 5870
877 2010-12-12 12:48:40 <ArtForz> so it might bne the best thing since sliced bread for 3D, it still sucks for hashing
878 2010-12-12 12:49:19 <ArtForz> and pyrit, and pretty much anything using GPGPU for sha or aes family algos
879 2010-12-12 12:51:00 <ArtForz> well, not that bad for AES, it only affects key scheduling there
880 2010-12-12 12:51:06 <KwukDuck> ArtForz, can you publish the list? i want to compare some cards
881 2010-12-12 13:16:13 <hacim> so the only way to get coins is to wait ~43 days to generate a block, or sell something?
882 2010-12-12 13:16:41 <noagendamarket> yes
883 2010-12-12 13:17:06 <noagendamarket> or buy them
884 2010-12-12 13:25:55 <Sirius_> what kind of scenarios do you have in mind when you say the wikileaks publicity could crush bitcoin?
885 2010-12-12 13:26:55 <Sirius_> oppression from government would just bring us more support from people
886 2010-12-12 13:27:35 <MT`AwAy> Sirius_: people with lots of cpu power willing to actually insert bad blocks in bitcoin
887 2010-12-12 13:28:06 <Sirius_> maybe yes, but proportionally more than the new "good" users?
888 2010-12-12 13:28:28 <Granttt> MY: what would their motivation be ? (supporting their governemnt?)
889 2010-12-12 13:28:30 <Sirius_> too much pressure on satoshi is what I can think of
890 2010-12-12 13:28:55 <Sirius_> stress
891 2010-12-12 13:31:10 <KwukDuck> hacim, or accept them
892 2010-12-12 13:31:35 <T_X> satoshi and other people seemed to prefer playing a safe game, I guess. with the current moderate, but steady increase of bitcoin popularity, bitcoin could crawl stealthy right under the people's asses, which might not like bitcoin. and then it'll be too and established for those people to do anything against it
893 2010-12-12 13:32:14 <T_X> in the beginning I also was very much tending to go with this wikileaks wave, but I think I changed my mind
894 2010-12-12 13:32:17 <KwukDuck> T_X what would anyone do against it anyway?
895 2010-12-12 13:32:42 <sjaak> latest remote miner acting weird for anyone else?
896 2010-12-12 13:33:14 <KwukDuck> sjaak, opencl miner doesn't work for me
897 2010-12-12 13:33:26 <T_X> KwukDuck: I guess there are still a lot of places that are not decentral enough and could be threatened and controled especially
898 2010-12-12 13:33:54 <sjaak> KwukDuck: same here, but the cuda miner is acting weird as well, it just keeps on requesting new blocks
899 2010-12-12 13:33:58 <T_X> which would not be able to kill the whole concept and thing, but could hinder a convinient access for common people
900 2010-12-12 13:35:43 <KwukDuck> sjaak, the cuda miner works fine here
901 2010-12-12 13:35:54 <T_X> governments could start blocking access to bitcoin related sites, could sue the people running mtgox or bitcoinmarket, they could sue satoshi and other people with vague reasons
902 2010-12-12 13:36:34 <T_X> but if you have a certain level of people behind it and slowly get it into the mainstream, then this won't be reversible for a government anymore
903 2010-12-12 13:36:45 <KwukDuck> T_X, when it comes down to it they can sue and jail anyone for any made up reason
904 2010-12-12 13:37:10 <KwukDuck> i wonder how many users bitcoin has
905 2010-12-12 13:37:17 <T_X> hmm, don't think so, if there's a critical mass behind it, then it's not feasible for goverments to sue anybody
906 2010-12-12 13:37:33 <sjaak> hm, now it seems working again, after a recv socket error -1 and a reconnect
907 2010-12-12 13:37:45 <doublec> sjaak, I've seend that too
908 2010-12-12 13:37:49 <doublec> I posted in the forums about it
909 2010-12-12 13:37:55 <KwukDuck> T_X, we're a long way from that critical mass xD
910 2010-12-12 13:38:30 <T_X> exactly, that's why it is still vulnerable to influencal and/or rich bastards
911 2010-12-12 13:38:34 <sjaak> doublec: yeah saw that, hopefully there'll be a quick response
912 2010-12-12 13:39:39 <KwukDuck> so, you rather see it stays underground longer, not get media attention?
913 2010-12-12 13:40:06 <T_X> and I think people will naturally be tending to use bitcoin over time, so I think there's no problem with the slow 'n' steady strategy
914 2010-12-12 13:40:48 <T_X> I usually prefer to think in long terms, not short ones :)
915 2010-12-12 13:42:49 <doublec> The danger of saying 'bit coin doesn't want to be involved with wikileaks" is that people will look for, use, and establish something that becomes a stronger e-currency
916 2010-12-12 13:43:00 <T_X> and so far, we can chose in which order to attract the attention of different people for bitcoin to shorten this period
917 2010-12-12 13:44:09 <T_X> doublec: hmm, fair point
918 2010-12-12 13:45:20 <T_X> usually in terms of markets or open source software, I'd say that's a good thing, competition is good for business. but of course, don't know how that'd count for an e-currency
919 2010-12-12 13:45:35 <T_X> as you'd prefer having a monopolised e-currency
920 2010-12-12 13:46:21 <Grantt> T_X: how about just saying the truth: Nobody has the authority to decide what people use bitcoin for, bitcoin is used what people want to use it for
921 2010-12-12 13:47:18 <Grantt> i dont see any reason to be defensive to the wikileaks article, just ignore it
922 2010-12-12 13:48:02 <Grantt> i personally dont wanna be associated with wikileaks, but i dont care if someone wants to use bitcoin to fund them
923 2010-12-12 13:50:35 <doublec> Grantt, I agree.
924 2010-12-12 13:50:39 <MT`AwAy> Grantt: except the first targets will be the exchange sites like mtgox, which may result in either a loss of value for bitcoins, or on contrary the value increasing because it becomes difficult to obtain
925 2010-12-12 13:51:29 <doublec> You can't promote Bitcoin to people and say "Please use it" but when it starts getting popular say "Oops, please don't"
926 2010-12-12 13:51:32 <T_X> MT`AwAy: yeah, but that would slow down the process towards mainstream acceptance, wouldn't it?
927 2010-12-12 13:52:48 <MT`AwAy> T_X: that's why for now we shouldn't push toward wikileaks
928 2010-12-12 13:53:26 <[Noodles]> we shouldn't push, but there's also no way to pull ^.~
929 2010-12-12 13:53:36 <doublec> MT`AwAy, I agree we shouldn't push it as a solution to Wikileaks problems. But we shouldn't be going around saying we don't want them to use it.
930 2010-12-12 13:53:52 <Grantt> well, mtgox can state a disclaimer that they (since they are a service provider) DO not accept ppl to use MTGOX to donate to wikileaks :)
931 2010-12-12 13:54:01 <doublec> We should say "Feel free to consider it buy be aware of issues like A, B and C."
932 2010-12-12 13:54:24 <doublec> Where A, B and C are things like it's early days, not audited, may be bugs, etc.
933 2010-12-12 13:54:35 <Grantt> there is ofcourse noway mtgox could verify that but at least theres a stupid disclaimer ;)
934 2010-12-12 13:54:37 <KwukDuck> bitcoin could get mainstream realy fast, if only big companies would accept it as payment :)
935 2010-12-12 13:55:00 <MT`AwAy> KwukDuck: I'm not big, but I'm a company, and I accept it :p (and working on better way for my partners to accept bitcoins)
936 2010-12-12 13:55:23 <Grantt> KwukDuck: i'd honestly prefer if bitcoin grew because of many small companies rather than a few big ones
937 2010-12-12 13:56:19 <MT`AwAy> if I manage that right, you should be able to buy software/games online with bitcoins soon
938 2010-12-12 13:56:45 <T_X> doublec/Grantt: agreed, it's for sure not ok to force and push people to use something or not use something in a free society. but I also have a kind of sceptical point of view of people sometimes, why I think it's up to people with more experience to notice the people of things that might be "bad" in any sense
939 2010-12-12 13:57:14 <T_X> and with noting people I'd not only mean telling them about issues, but also how you'd expect to grow bitcoin the fastest and safest
940 2010-12-12 13:58:18 <T_X> KwuckDuck: bitcoin cuold get mainstream really fast, if only the many stream people were using it already for any kind of simple transaction :)
941 2010-12-12 13:58:28 <doublec> T_X, Yes, and this is how we should be advertising the "Bitcoin might not be the best solution for Wikileaks" story
942 2010-12-12 13:58:30 <T_X> then the big companies would have to hop on to it anyway
943 2010-12-12 13:58:39 <doublec> But I'm seeing too much of "Bitcoin doesn't like Wikileaks"
944 2010-12-12 13:58:49 <doublec> Bitcoin is looking as bad as PayPal
945 2010-12-12 13:58:59 <Diablo-D3> wtf?
946 2010-12-12 13:59:10 <Diablo-D3> I can officially say I'm somebody when it comes to bitcoin
947 2010-12-12 13:59:35 <Diablo-D3> and if julian assange was a girl, I would let her file rape charges against me, if you know what I mean, wink wink nudge nudge
948 2010-12-12 13:59:39 <T_X> doublec: ah, okay. didn't have that impression that much so far. but maybe you're right.