1 2010-12-13 00:01:15 <altamic> ah instant satisfaction, pushing on heroku bitcoin slides I'm working on
  2 2010-12-13 00:01:51 <Kiba> altamic: yeah, heroku rocks!
  3 2010-12-13 00:02:13 <altamic> http://kiba:bitcoinrulez@bitcoin-intro.heroku.com
  4 2010-12-13 00:02:44 <altamic> be sure to enter full screen
  5 2010-12-13 00:02:52 <altamic> and it's work in progress
  6 2010-12-13 00:09:28 <altamic> 2:10 AM here time to sleep
  7 2010-12-13 00:09:36 <altamic> bye
  8 2010-12-13 00:14:28 <joe_1> the slide show neesds more pretty pictures
  9 2010-12-13 00:17:25 <Kiba> so we got on the front page Hacker News
 10 2010-12-13 00:17:26 <Kiba> Reddit
 11 2010-12-13 00:17:28 <Kiba> and Slashdot
 12 2010-12-13 00:17:31 <Kiba> wee
 13 2010-12-13 00:17:35 <Kiba> the three big geek site
 14 2010-12-13 00:20:46 <andrew12> yay for the mining pool. i managed to get 0.07 btc :p
 15 2010-12-13 00:22:16 <Kiba> hmm
 16 2010-12-13 00:23:00 <andrew12> it's interesting that bitcoin says "Generated" for it
 17 2010-12-13 00:25:02 <Kiba> you did generate it!
 18 2010-12-13 00:25:25 <andrew12> yes, but I didn't think that was how it worked
 19 2010-12-13 00:31:20 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: heh.
 20 2010-12-13 00:31:46 <Granttt> interesting comments at these geeky sites
 21 2010-12-13 00:33:03 <Granttt> I'm getting sick of hearing about bitcoins already, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to get more sick of hearing about them over the next year or so.  << LOL
 22 2010-12-13 00:34:12 <Kiba> hehe
 23 2010-12-13 00:34:23 <Diablo-D3> Im getting sick of hearing of... well... everything
 24 2010-12-13 00:34:44 <Diablo-D3> I should write a filter that blocks pages that say congress or politics or republicans
 25 2010-12-13 00:35:56 <dissected> Diablo-D3, and upload it to the internet
 26 2010-12-13 00:36:13 <Diablo-D3> but it'd block the site I upload it to, too :<
 27 2010-12-13 00:36:32 <dissected> Diablo-D3, not a bad idea for a firefox extension
 28 2010-12-13 00:37:48 <dissected> Diablo-D3, john boehner was on 60 minutes tonight
 29 2010-12-13 00:37:56 <dissected> I couldn't even finish watching it
 30 2010-12-13 00:40:44 <Kiba> dissected: how about democrats too?
 31 2010-12-13 00:41:52 <dissected> Kiba, okay, but in all fairness, they have never made me cringe in quite the same way
 32 2010-12-13 00:51:33 <T_X> haha, gribble is sending me private messages :D
 33 2010-12-13 00:51:42 <T_X> which do not really make sense
 34 2010-12-13 00:53:04 <T_X> I had queried gribble for using the bot-commands there in private. and now its always telling me:
 35 2010-12-13 00:53:10 <T_X> yeah, this "channel"
 36 2010-12-13 01:02:53 <slush_cz1> Hi, I'm trying to understand comparing of target and hashes_again_. I though that rising difficulty leads to more zeros (in binary form) on the end of 'target', which bitcoin send in getwork. so for current difficulty on testnet and target '.....08124500000000' the hash must have at least 32bits of zeros from right.
 37 2010-12-13 01:02:58 <slush_cz1> Am I completely wrong?
 38 2010-12-13 01:05:52 <ArtForz> no
 39 2010-12-13 01:06:02 <ArtForz> you just read it in wrong byte order
 40 2010-12-13 01:06:21 <ArtForz> hrrrm
 41 2010-12-13 01:06:26 <ArtForz> or maybe not
 42 2010-12-13 01:07:29 <slush_cz1> Hmm, AFAIK this target is already little endian
 43 2010-12-13 01:07:54 <slush_cz1> Satoshi somewhere noted that he transform it for easier handling
 44 2010-12-13 01:08:42 <ArtForz> yeah it is
 45 2010-12-13 01:09:01 <ArtForz> testnet target is 0x00000000451208...
 46 2010-12-13 01:09:05 <slush_cz1> so I'm reading it from right to left, no byte swapping, whatever
 47 2010-12-13 01:10:31 <ArtForz> pretty much
 48 2010-12-13 01:10:46 <slush_cz1> Its probably me and my testing of miner O:-)
 49 2010-12-13 01:10:56 <ArtForz> you read it right to left, little endian DWORDs
 50 2010-12-13 01:11:13 <Diablo-D3> [08:37:47] <dissected> Diablo-D3, john boehner was on 60 minutes tonight
 51 2010-12-13 01:11:15 <Diablo-D3> I hate boehner
 52 2010-12-13 01:11:34 <ArtForz> so H == 0, G <= 0x45120800
 53 2010-12-13 01:12:19 <Kiba> who's boehner?
 54 2010-12-13 01:12:53 <slush_cz1> ArtForz: Well, what is wrong in my attitude, with comparing bit zeros?
 55 2010-12-13 01:13:14 <ArtForz> it's not simply counting 0 bits
 56 2010-12-13 01:13:30 <ArtForz> it's actually converting hash result to a 256 bit value and comparing for <= target
 57 2010-12-13 01:14:09 <ArtForz> miners usually don't bother with lower words in the inner loop, lookuing only for H == 0
 58 2010-12-13 01:14:31 <ArtForz> so we only have to do the full conversion and compare for 1 in 2**32 hashes
 59 2010-12-13 01:14:31 <slush_cz1> Yes, I know. I don't need to make it exact. I'm doing the same like the miners
 60 2010-12-13 01:15:08 <slush_cz1> Just with variable bit count
 61 2010-12-13 01:15:21 <ArtForz> sounds slow
 62 2010-12-13 01:15:49 <slush_cz1> 1. get it work 2. optimize ;)
 63 2010-12-13 01:15:51 <jgarzik> if (cheap_check() && expensive_check()) { stop hashing }
 64 2010-12-13 01:17:13 <slush_cz1> To be honest, I have big troubles in working with so large numbers in python. Checking zeros is much easier to me. And it _almost_ works.
 65 2010-12-13 01:18:44 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: one of the supreme dicks of the republican party
 66 2010-12-13 01:18:59 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: hes a guy that doesnt even bother covering up that hes a lying, cheating, stealing, total asshole
 67 2010-12-13 01:19:08 <jgarzik> slush_cz1: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1925.msg27307#msg27307
 68 2010-12-13 01:19:16 <bitbot> New demonstration CPU miner available : lfm: note if you wanted to do a full difficulty test rather than returning the preliminary "proof of work" to the server, its not hard, I think this would work:  <div class="codeheader">Code:</div><div class="code">/* do full difficulty test of hash */  #define OFF 75  int fulltest(void * block, void *hash) {   unsigned ch...
 69 2010-12-13 01:19:26 <ArtForz> having a problem working with large numbers in python?
 70 2010-12-13 01:19:36 <slush_cz1> In testing phase I found a situation, that my internal target is '33 bits of zeros'. I'm a little bit surprised that I found hash with 33 bites of zeros, current testnet target has 32 zeros and it does not trigger 'block found'.
 71 2010-12-13 01:19:59 <ArtForz> current terstnet target has quite a bit more zeros
 72 2010-12-13 01:20:16 <ArtForz> nm
 73 2010-12-13 01:20:26 <ArtForz> 33 zeros it is
 74 2010-12-13 01:20:55 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: it went back down?
 75 2010-12-13 01:21:36 <ArtForz> testnet diff? I think so
 76 2010-12-13 01:21:43 <Diablo-D3> it used to be 10.x
 77 2010-12-13 01:21:56 <slush_cz1> ArtForz: Should be this hash valid in current testnet? 4314939ea460b98b74e796e694bc1e58fb4f91247e58b9b39984b07800000000
 78 2010-12-13 01:22:03 <slush_cz1> ArtForz: BTW, thanks a lot for your help
 79 2010-12-13 01:22:31 <slush_cz1> ArtForz:But  I'm not sure if bitcoin donation is what you really need :-D
 80 2010-12-13 01:23:13 <ArtForz> I'd say no
 81 2010-12-13 01:23:52 <ArtForz> 0x0000000078b08499 > 0x0000000045120800
 82 2010-12-13 01:30:28 <slush_cz1> Oh, I think I finally get it
 83 2010-12-13 01:30:40 <slush_cz1> Example is better than 100 words
 84 2010-12-13 01:31:42 <MJD> hey all, I was just wondering if there was an easy way to seed a new instance of bitcoin from an existing instance so that it does *not* have to redownload the whole block chain?
 85 2010-12-13 01:33:04 <slush_cz1> Well, I will leave my algo as is, because I'm currently sending always targets in form ....ffff00000 . So it will work until internal targets and bitcoin targets will not be near. Which will definitely not.
 86 2010-12-13 01:34:40 <slush_cz1> jgarzik: forgot to thank you for link to example.
 87 2010-12-13 01:55:03 <Kiba> does any bitcoiner here knows how to use tahoe-lafs?
 88 2010-12-13 02:10:51 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: hello?
 89 2010-12-13 02:15:22 <slush_cz1> MT`AwAy: yep
 90 2010-12-13 02:16:26 <slush_cz1> MT`AwAy: do you meet any problem?
 91 2010-12-13 02:17:46 <nanotube> MJD: sure, just copy over the blk0001.dat file
 92 2010-12-13 02:18:01 <nanotube> T_X: it must be from your joins to #bitcoin...
 93 2010-12-13 02:18:09 <jgarzik> nanotube: and blkindex
 94 2010-12-13 02:18:23 <nanotube> jgarzik: client can regenerate the index on its own, though, no?
 95 2010-12-13 02:18:43 <jgarzik> nanotube: not automatically, no.  that's why I wrote http://yyz.us/bitcoin/patch.bitcoin-initblocks
 96 2010-12-13 02:18:51 <nanotube> jgarzik: aah heh ok
 97 2010-12-13 02:31:16 <MJD> nanotube: K, thanks!
 98 2010-12-13 02:31:42 <MJD> and jgarzik!
 99 2010-12-13 02:32:12 <jgarzik> MJD: http://yyz.us/bitcoin/blocks-linux-64bit.tar.bz2 is around 94,000 blocks
100 2010-12-13 02:32:23 <jgarzik> and works on 32-bit Windows and 32-bit Linux
101 2010-12-13 02:34:30 <MJD> Its ok now, I was just starting a new client and had two others already running.  As I may start a few more later, I just wanted to know if I could transfer some  files to easily seed them to avoid the wait as they download the list.
102 2010-12-13 02:39:10 <Phoebus> Hello everyone, brilliant concept. I'm going through the faq and part of the paper. Pretty excited about this, but also a bit puzzled about some of the math.
103 2010-12-13 02:39:21 <aksez> yea me 2
104 2010-12-13 02:39:37 <noagendamarket> Hello
105 2010-12-13 02:39:48 <Phoebus> Logged channel, nice going to read up on some of the logs.
106 2010-12-13 02:39:57 <noagendamarket> where did you hear about it?
107 2010-12-13 02:40:13 <Phoebus> Slashdot, on the thread about wikileaks and maybe using bc.
108 2010-12-13 02:40:28 <Phoebus> Then went on to read more, and the faq, and in the process of reading the paper.
109 2010-12-13 02:41:41 <noagendamarket> Last time bitcoin got slashdotted the price went from .06 to .50 lol
110 2010-12-13 02:41:50 <Kiba> noagendamarket: not really
111 2010-12-13 02:41:54 <noagendamarket> its calmed down a bit since then
112 2010-12-13 02:42:04 <Kiba> more like 5 months?
113 2010-12-13 02:42:11 <noagendamarket> the speculators got involved
114 2010-12-13 02:42:17 <Phoebus> noagendamarket, haha, I wish I knew what that actually meant.... thank you for making me feel like the newbie I am :P
115 2010-12-13 02:42:34 <noagendamarket> haha well its the bitcoin rate
116 2010-12-13 02:42:38 <Phoebus> C++ based, nice, I need practice there.
117 2010-12-13 02:42:41 <Kiba> we have only one viable currency exchange market and that is mtgox
118 2010-12-13 02:43:06 <Phoebus> noagendamarket, yeah but I have no idea rate in relation to what?
119 2010-12-13 02:43:24 <Phoebus> USD?
120 2010-12-13 02:43:39 <Phoebus> Euros?
121 2010-12-13 02:43:40 <noagendamarket> us
122 2010-12-13 02:43:41 <Phoebus> Ah, ok, cheers.
123 2010-12-13 02:43:43 <aksez> can i ask what is the blue canary about?
124 2010-12-13 02:43:44 <noagendamarket> no worries.
125 2010-12-13 02:43:45 <noagendamarket> I dont know
126 2010-12-13 02:43:48 <Phoebus> I just installed the client, and the new newbie question is, how do you maintain the same account from multiple computers?
127 2010-12-13 02:43:49 <Phoebus> Can I use dropbox or wuala to share the same wallet across?
128 2010-12-13 02:43:55 <noagendamarket> Its your wallet.dat
129 2010-12-13 02:43:56 <Phoebus> I prefer wuala though, high encryption.
130 2010-12-13 02:44:01 <Phoebus> Cool.
131 2010-12-13 02:44:07 <Phoebus> I could hack it together easily then.
132 2010-12-13 02:44:12 <noagendamarket> in appdata
133 2010-12-13 02:44:21 <Phoebus> Yeah. I remember from FAQ, cheers.
134 2010-12-13 02:44:53 <noagendamarket> Just keep your wallet file safe lol
135 2010-12-13 02:45:04 <Phoebus> Yeah, I get that, I'm not that new.
136 2010-12-13 02:45:11 <Phoebus> I'm new to this system, not to computing :P
137 2010-12-13 02:45:15 <Phoebus> But thank you for the concern.
138 2010-12-13 02:45:17 <noagendamarket> :)
139 2010-12-13 02:45:39 <noagendamarket> actually I think encrypted wallets are oon the way
140 2010-12-13 02:45:50 <Phoebus> Yeah, read that on the faq too.
141 2010-12-13 02:45:54 <Kiba> from the official client?
142 2010-12-13 02:46:01 <noagendamarket> I think so
143 2010-12-13 02:46:04 <Phoebus> Don't be surprised, I know most people don't read :P
144 2010-12-13 02:46:29 <Phoebus> The reason I'm so excited is that I was thinking of making a website doing something similar.
145 2010-12-13 02:46:35 <Phoebus> Then I ran into the cosmos project.
146 2010-12-13 02:46:40 <Phoebus> And then considered using that...
147 2010-12-13 02:46:48 <Phoebus> And now I ran into bc, and considering this instead.
148 2010-12-13 02:46:53 <noagendamarket> have you seen tahoe lafs?
149 2010-12-13 02:47:00 <noagendamarket> thats a good choice for backing up
150 2010-12-13 02:47:00 <Phoebus> Now, wazzat?
151 2010-12-13 02:47:13 <Kiba> noagendamarket: no it's not.
152 2010-12-13 02:47:28 <Phoebus> I prefer encrypted storage for backing up.
153 2010-12-13 02:47:29 <noagendamarket> it would be if I could get it installed
154 2010-12-13 02:47:34 <noagendamarket> :)-
155 2010-12-13 02:47:36 <Phoebus> Like truecrypt.
156 2010-12-13 02:47:40 <Kiba> percisely
157 2010-12-13 02:47:55 <Kiba> I think tahoe lafs does distributed encrypted sharing stuff
158 2010-12-13 02:48:07 <Phoebus> Sounds like wuala's design.
159 2010-12-13 02:48:35 <Kiba> if I could get it working, I will be offering a bounty
160 2010-12-13 02:48:45 <Phoebus> Sign up for wuala through this and I'll love you long time? http://www.wuala.com/referral/4JPGBGFJNM563AANNJBN
161 2010-12-13 02:48:47 <Kiba> after all, why offer space to somebody?
162 2010-12-13 02:48:59 <Phoebus> Kiba, they use a bitorrent mixed protocol.
163 2010-12-13 02:49:12 <Phoebus> So sharing space on your hdd and some traffic gets you a pro account, and a LOT of online storage.
164 2010-12-13 02:49:26 <Kiba> talking about tahoe
165 2010-12-13 02:49:28 <Phoebus> Google them, and check out their paper.
166 2010-12-13 02:49:30 <noagendamarket> yes
167 2010-12-13 02:49:32 <Phoebus> Oh, tahoe I have no clue.
168 2010-12-13 02:49:47 <Kiba> are they open source?
169 2010-12-13 02:49:58 <Phoebus> They are closed source, ran by Lacie.
170 2010-12-13 02:50:05 <Phoebus> But the paper and concept is published.
171 2010-12-13 02:50:12 <Kiba> naw
172 2010-12-13 02:50:17 <jgarzik> new rotation constants... how exciting!
173 2010-12-13 02:50:23 <noagendamarket> tahoe is open source
174 2010-12-13 02:50:31 <appamatto> I wonder if there will be an incentive to mine once generation ends
175 2010-12-13 02:50:42 <noagendamarket> transaction fees
176 2010-12-13 02:51:03 <noagendamarket> will provide the incentive
177 2010-12-13 02:51:06 <Kiba> if there are enough usage, there should be some transaction fee
178 2010-12-13 02:51:44 <Phoebus> Reading up on tahoe, interesting.
179 2010-12-13 02:51:49 <jgarzik> tahoe will be interesting once bitcoins are integrated
180 2010-12-13 02:51:55 <Kiba> yes
181 2010-12-13 02:52:00 <appamatto> Hmm, I guess it's possible that transaction fees could rise
182 2010-12-13 02:52:02 <Kiba> no incentive to provide HD space
183 2010-12-13 02:52:06 <jgarzik> a truly decentralized, pay-for-storage service is still needed, as of today.
184 2010-12-13 02:52:18 <jgarzik> (and no, block chain isn't it :))
185 2010-12-13 02:52:19 <Phoebus> Wuala uses a similar approach but also gives incentive: online space.
186 2010-12-13 02:52:41 <Kiba> I trust oepn source more than I trust proprietary software
187 2010-12-13 02:52:53 <Phoebus> Depends.
188 2010-12-13 02:53:00 <Phoebus> But I hear you.
189 2010-12-13 02:53:22 <jgarzik> not decentralized, if it's closed source.
190 2010-12-13 02:53:38 <Kiba> ;;bc,calc 230000
191 2010-12-13 02:53:44 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 230000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 2 days, 15 hours, 33 minutes, and 11 seconds
192 2010-12-13 02:53:59 <Phoebus> No, wuala uses servers plus everyone that joins in on the bitorrent-like local shares.
193 2010-12-13 02:54:38 <Kiba> now if I can get zooko to help diagnois my problem...
194 2010-12-13 02:54:42 <appamatto> ;;bc,calc 56000
195 2010-12-13 02:54:42 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 56000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 week, 3 days, 21 hours, 1 minute, and 20 seconds
196 2010-12-13 02:54:50 <Kiba> does anybody know how to use this thing called tahoe?
197 2010-12-13 02:55:42 <noagendamarket> I stored something opn the test site lol
198 2010-12-13 02:56:07 <noagendamarket> Once it integrates bitcoin it would be a killer app
199 2010-12-13 02:56:21 <Phoebus> I get so giddy about open source development sometimes, this is one of those times. <3
200 2010-12-13 02:56:33 <jgarzik> appamatto: the value of bitcoins will raise, making transaction fees "cost" more
201 2010-12-13 02:56:35 <Phoebus> Computer scientists re-designing the world, 2.0. >.<
202 2010-12-13 02:56:56 <Kiba> you can't have normal computer scientists wiht boring political beliefs
203 2010-12-13 02:57:02 <jgarzik> appamatto: when 100 million people use bitcoin, and there are only 21 million BTC in existence, 0.01 BTC is worth a lot
204 2010-12-13 02:57:08 <Kiba> they won't change the world
205 2010-12-13 02:57:16 <Phoebus> Kiba, yeah, true, but there are some no?
206 2010-12-13 02:57:30 <Kiba> bitcoin is some subversive stuff
207 2010-12-13 02:57:50 <noagendamarket> If it threatens the banks the real leather will hit the road
208 2010-12-13 02:57:57 <Kiba> capitalism?
209 2010-12-13 02:57:59 <Phoebus> The question begged, is when will bitcoin be hacked, and how :P But I don't know enough about the system yet.
210 2010-12-13 02:58:05 <Kiba> you can't kill capitalism!
211 2010-12-13 02:58:12 <noagendamarket> can you hack sha 256?
212 2010-12-13 02:58:13 <jgarzik> few things threaten banks that they cannot co-opt
213 2010-12-13 02:58:16 <Kiba> we will thrive and multiply, baby!
214 2010-12-13 02:58:27 <Phoebus> I hear you can hack SHA, don't know about 2566666.
215 2010-12-13 02:58:39 <Phoebus> Whoops, sorry sticky keyb :P
216 2010-12-13 02:58:41 <noagendamarket> I feel safer using bitcoin than logging into internet banking lol
217 2010-12-13 02:58:46 <Kiba> laughter
218 2010-12-13 02:58:49 <Kiba> violent opposition
219 2010-12-13 02:58:51 <Kiba> acceptance
220 2010-12-13 02:59:05 <Phoebus> noagendamarket, my ebank has some pretty good security. To transfer any cash you can only do that with an RSA key.
221 2010-12-13 02:59:09 <noagendamarket> first they laugh at you then they fight you then you win!
222 2010-12-13 02:59:24 <Kiba> doesn't it start with ignoring
223 2010-12-13 02:59:24 <Phoebus> ^
224 2010-12-13 02:59:29 <Phoebus> Yeah.
225 2010-12-13 02:59:33 <Phoebus> So ghandi, but true.
226 2010-12-13 02:59:35 <noagendamarket> yea it does
227 2010-12-13 03:00:17 <Xunie> ;;bc,stat
228 2010-12-13 03:00:19 <gribble> Error: "bc,stat" is not a valid command.
229 2010-12-13 03:00:21 <Xunie> ;;bc,help
230 2010-12-13 03:00:23 <noagendamarket> If someone shows up asking you to buy drugs or child porn with bitcoin most likely thats the feds lol
231 2010-12-13 03:00:24 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, and Alias bc,totalbc
232 2010-12-13 03:00:29 <Xunie> ;;bc,stats
233 2010-12-13 03:00:32 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97297 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 1486 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 1 hour, 36 minutes, and 41 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 13944.21459322
234 2010-12-13 03:13:22 <Phoebus> So, if this really works we can bypass banks altogether, for good.
235 2010-12-13 03:14:10 <Kiba> naw, we're bypassing fat cat banks
236 2010-12-13 03:14:39 <Kiba> bankers can have economic functions, but they fat catting themsleves to uselessness
237 2010-12-13 03:15:02 <Phoebus> Kiba, do you think banks like bnp paribas could get on board and use the system?
238 2010-12-13 03:15:09 <Phoebus> Yeah, agreed.
239 2010-12-13 03:15:20 <Kiba> who are they?
240 2010-12-13 03:15:24 <Phoebus> I don't agree with someone leeching, appearing as a contributor, get rich - while contributing nothing.
241 2010-12-13 03:15:29 <Phoebus> http://www.forachangingworld.com/
242 2010-12-13 03:16:17 <Phoebus> Also I'd like to see kiva.org get on this.
243 2010-12-13 03:16:20 <Kiba> meh, don't know what the site is about
244 2010-12-13 03:17:30 <jgarzik> Phoebus: bitcoin economy (US$1 million) is too small for a Big Bank to get interested right now, IMO
245 2010-12-13 03:18:07 <Phoebus> I see, what are the stats of users? As in, where are most BC users located?
246 2010-12-13 03:18:26 <Kiba> all over the world, mostly western civilization
247 2010-12-13 03:18:40 <Phoebus> ok
248 2010-12-13 03:18:42 <Kiba> some Japanese are getting a bit excited about it but nothing much
249 2010-12-13 03:19:01 <noagendamarket> theres lots of russians
250 2010-12-13 03:19:11 <jgarzik> lots of russians and americans
251 2010-12-13 03:19:11 <noagendamarket> i wonder why lol
252 2010-12-13 03:19:13 <Kiba> yeah, the Russians even have their own forum
253 2010-12-13 03:19:21 <noagendamarket> and exchange
254 2010-12-13 03:19:27 <Kiba> indeed
255 2010-12-13 03:19:35 <Phoebus> Nice.
256 2010-12-13 03:19:50 <Phoebus> Well, I'm from Greece originally but live in Canada.
257 2010-12-13 03:20:04 <noagendamarket> hey the madhatter is in canada
258 2010-12-13 03:20:06 <Phoebus> I was thinking of using Cosmos in a smaller community to safeguard against poverty etc.
259 2010-12-13 03:20:08 <Kiba> Greece..hmm
260 2010-12-13 03:20:16 <noagendamarket> he operates bitcoin 4 cash
261 2010-12-13 03:20:19 <Phoebus> Are you familiar with the cosmos project?
262 2010-12-13 03:20:21 <Kiba> the way to end poverty is to increase trade...
263 2010-12-13 03:20:28 <Phoebus> Yeah, exactly.
264 2010-12-13 03:20:47 <Kiba> we have almost no interdependence with Africa...
265 2010-12-13 03:21:23 <noagendamarket> we have lots with china
266 2010-12-13 03:21:40 <Kiba> yeah
267 2010-12-13 03:21:47 <noagendamarket> china is taking over africa
268 2010-12-13 03:21:49 <Kiba> our peace is dependent on interdepdence with China
269 2010-12-13 03:21:55 <Kiba> noagendamarket: sound like imperalism.
270 2010-12-13 03:22:02 <noagendamarket> yes
271 2010-12-13 03:23:29 <Kiba> but ya know, wealthy naive American are giving away lot of wasted money
272 2010-12-13 03:23:47 <Phoebus> All this time I mentioned cosmos, I meant cyclos: http://project.cyclos.org/
273 2010-12-13 03:24:02 <Phoebus> It's also an open source project, runs off its own units.
274 2010-12-13 03:24:10 <Phoebus> They use it in brazil, the devs are from there.
275 2010-12-13 03:24:11 <Kiba> LETS?
276 2010-12-13 03:24:18 <Phoebus> Yeah, it's like a LETS.
277 2010-12-13 03:24:26 <Kiba> well, we had a big debate with it
278 2010-12-13 03:24:33 <Kiba> the proponent of it then left
279 2010-12-13 03:24:36 <Phoebus> How did the debate go?
280 2010-12-13 03:24:42 <Kiba> and then called bitcoin a pyramid scheme
281 2010-12-13 03:24:53 <Phoebus> Hmm...
282 2010-12-13 03:25:07 <Kiba> let just say, we basically ripped on the idea
283 2010-12-13 03:25:22 <Phoebus> Haha, I bet, but I like their implementations.
284 2010-12-13 03:25:32 <Phoebus> So I wonder if we can use something like that, but base it on BC.
285 2010-12-13 03:25:44 <Phoebus> To make end-applications easier for communities.
286 2010-12-13 03:25:46 <Kiba> bitcoin aren't socialists..we're crazy capialists
287 2010-12-13 03:25:59 <Kiba> bitcoiners
288 2010-12-13 03:26:02 <Phoebus> Uhuh, it's just a medium.
289 2010-12-13 03:26:22 <Kiba> bitcoiners..
290 2010-12-13 03:26:24 <Phoebus> That's somewhat black and white thinking.
291 2010-12-13 03:26:29 <Kiba> most bitcoiners are market anarchists
292 2010-12-13 03:26:55 <Phoebus> Whatever, politicization the question is, does it work -- and if so, how to make it easier to build on it/use it.
293 2010-12-13 03:27:00 <Kiba> there had been.
294 2010-12-13 03:27:20 <Kiba> 40% who voted are market anarchists
295 2010-12-13 03:27:21 <Phoebus> I refuse to use any label, I'm much more fluid than that.
296 2010-12-13 03:27:34 <Kiba> fluid or not, I don't care. I care about what is right and wrong.
297 2010-12-13 03:27:34 <Phoebus> Anarchists does not mean capitalists.
298 2010-12-13 03:27:41 <Kiba> I said.. market anarchists
299 2010-12-13 03:27:41 <Phoebus> I think we have a label mess going on.
300 2010-12-13 03:28:12 <Phoebus> I don't see any meaning so far, in labeling stuff. What's the content?
301 2010-12-13 03:28:24 <Kiba> labels are useful.
302 2010-12-13 03:28:24 <Phoebus> Let's talk about the content and concepts.
303 2010-12-13 03:28:32 <Kiba> they describe things.
304 2010-12-13 03:28:35 <Phoebus> Yeah, when they come in and with context.
305 2010-12-13 03:28:41 <Phoebus> Also, with purpose, and direction :P
306 2010-12-13 03:28:53 <Phoebus> Often, they're just as useless as no labels.
307 2010-12-13 03:28:56 <Kiba> Phoebus: go read anarcho-capitalism
308 2010-12-13 03:28:59 <Phoebus> And as confusing, as no language.
309 2010-12-13 03:29:07 <Phoebus> Right, that's what I wanted to do today.
310 2010-12-13 03:29:16 <Phoebus> I may at some point.
311 2010-12-13 03:29:24 <Phoebus> But right now I'll read about bc and applications.
312 2010-12-13 03:30:04 <Kiba> regardless, there's a political motivation...
313 2010-12-13 03:30:06 <zzop> Would a bitcoin-supporting auction site be useful at this point, or are there probably not enough people using it to make it worthwhile?
314 2010-12-13 03:30:14 <Kiba> Satoshi didn't just create it...for nothing
315 2010-12-13 03:30:19 <Kiba> biddingpond, zzop
316 2010-12-13 03:30:23 <Kiba> biddingpond.com
317 2010-12-13 03:30:25 <zzop> Ah!
318 2010-12-13 03:30:28 <zzop> Cheers Kiba
319 2010-12-13 03:30:39 <Phoebus> Kiba, sure, but I'm more interested in the ideas themselves, than just throwing labels around.
320 2010-12-13 03:30:52 <Phoebus> In any case, you have to define your terms.
321 2010-12-13 03:30:57 <Kiba> blah, blah, blah.
322 2010-12-13 03:31:00 <Phoebus> Can't assume your use of a label equates.
323 2010-12-13 03:31:06 <Phoebus> If you actually care about communicating :P
324 2010-12-13 03:31:16 <Kiba> you wallows about labels...
325 2010-12-13 03:31:32 <Phoebus> I wallow about content, and avoiding vagueness.
326 2010-12-13 03:31:44 <Kiba> you wallow about nothingness
327 2010-12-13 03:31:54 <Phoebus> noagendamarket, I like your "no agenda market" avatar.
328 2010-12-13 03:32:30 <Phoebus> Kiba, Americans - often, headstrong and non-collaborative.
329 2010-12-13 03:32:38 <Phoebus> What can we do, eh? :P
330 2010-12-13 03:32:59 <Phoebus> Talking at people, not with people - not as beneficial, in my opinion at least.
331 2010-12-13 03:33:15 <nanotube> Kiba: Phoebus: maybe take the social order discussion over to #bitcoin-discussion or something. :)
332 2010-12-13 03:33:23 <Kiba> you could at least ask some question about what anarcho-capitalism is
333 2010-12-13 03:33:58 <Phoebus> Topic eluded me, nanotube - as per " All related discussions are welcome." But thank you for the clarification.
334 2010-12-13 03:34:08 <Kiba> no, it's fine
335 2010-12-13 03:34:15 <Kiba> we need socialization every once in a while
336 2010-12-13 03:34:45 <nanotube> Phoebus: yea it's fine... just gets a little floody sometimes heh :)
337 2010-12-13 03:34:49 <Phoebus> Well, it is a dev channel, so we can stick to technical.
338 2010-12-13 03:35:04 <Phoebus> Anyway, my interest died for the evening, at least for now.
339 2010-12-13 03:35:09 <Kiba> #bitcoin-dev is actually mostly a catch all thing, rather than a development channel
340 2010-12-13 03:35:10 <Phoebus> So I'll just surf the forums for a bit anyway.
341 2010-12-13 03:35:28 <nanotube> Zarutian: hehe quite a bit of gen there, nice
342 2010-12-13 03:36:46 <ColonelPanic1> is it impossible to gen blocks yet?
343 2010-12-13 03:37:41 <Kiba> ColonelPanic1: just mean that you have to enter the lottery a million time
344 2010-12-13 03:37:43 <nanotube> ;;bc,stats
345 2010-12-13 03:37:45 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97303 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 1480 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 0 hours, 1 minute, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 13989.99915308
346 2010-12-13 03:37:53 <nanotube> ColonelPanic1: nope, still possible, difficulty is not infinity yet. :)
347 2010-12-13 03:38:11 <ColonelPanic1> I need to get a working GPU miner again, just way too busy
348 2010-12-13 03:38:46 <Kiba> sucky stuffy nose
349 2010-12-13 03:43:24 <mwally> Hello everyone.  I've read some news about BitCoin today, and I wanted to express my optimism.
350 2010-12-13 03:44:37 <Phoebus> Hey mwally, welcome - and I'm in your shoes. Almost as giddy - until recently :P
351 2010-12-13 03:45:15 <mwally> What happened recently?
352 2010-12-13 03:46:05 <Phoebus> Ah, nothing serious. Keep being giddy :P
353 2010-12-13 03:58:15 <zzop> ;;bc,calc 23
354 2010-12-13 03:58:16 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 23 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 72 years, 28 weeks, 4 days, 12 hours, 28 minutes, and 6 seconds
355 2010-12-13 03:58:20 <zzop> SWEET
356 2010-12-13 03:58:44 <zzop> My accelerated Amiga 1200 knows the power.
357 2010-12-13 03:58:53 <nanotube> haha
358 2010-12-13 03:59:01 <Phoebus> zzop, what sort of measurement is Khps?
359 2010-12-13 03:59:11 <Phoebus> Haha, I used an amiga A1200.
360 2010-12-13 03:59:15 <zzop> Phoebus: I wish I understood it better. :-)
361 2010-12-13 03:59:17 <nanotube> Phoebus: kilo hash per second
362 2010-12-13 03:59:19 <Phoebus> For scala scripts mostlu.
363 2010-12-13 03:59:25 <Phoebus> nanotube, cheers :)
364 2010-12-13 03:59:31 <nanotube> :)
365 2010-12-13 03:59:42 <Phoebus> *mostly, and basic graphics. Back in.. uhh 94-96 at a tv station.
366 2010-12-13 03:59:51 <Phoebus> Good times, I liked the OS compared to the then windows.
367 2010-12-13 03:59:51 <zzop> Phoebus: Great computers.
368 2010-12-13 04:00:00 <Phoebus> zzop, agreed, too bad they didn't keep at it.
369 2010-12-13 04:00:08 <Phoebus> I hear they went on vacation and enjoyed world trips :P
370 2010-12-13 04:00:19 <zzop> Phoebus: All things must pass.
371 2010-12-13 04:00:20 <Phoebus> Which, I suppose is also a good idea.
372 2010-12-13 04:00:38 <Phoebus> zzop, true, in some way - but I'd rather we optimize than lose productivity.
373 2010-12-13 04:00:45 <nanotube> zzop: basically, how many thousands of sha256 hashes per second your computer is able to calculate.
374 2010-12-13 04:01:15 <zzop> Phoebus: It's kind of amazing about this little computer. I mean, it boots in 5 seconds.
375 2010-12-13 04:01:33 <Phoebus> I remember, wait you use the 1200 today? :P
376 2010-12-13 04:01:48 <zzop> Phoebus: And the multitasking is often more responsive than most OSes I use now
377 2010-12-13 04:01:49 <Phoebus> Man, it's so bulky. Like a very fat keyboard, with a disk drive >.<
378 2010-12-13 04:01:59 <zzop> Phoebus: Nah, I just powered it up recently out of curiosity. ;-)
379 2010-12-13 04:02:01 <Phoebus> zzop, hilarious, isn't it?
380 2010-12-13 04:02:07 <Phoebus> haha
381 2010-12-13 04:02:18 <Phoebus> zzop, I'm going to run amigaOS on vmware some day for fun.
382 2010-12-13 04:03:38 <mwally> So, if the circulation of BTC will never exceed 20,999,999.9~, is it expected that the value of the coins will greatly increase as more people adopt the currency?
383 2010-12-13 04:04:37 <nanotube> mwally: yes
384 2010-12-13 04:04:48 <nanotube> mwally: /if/ more people adopt the currency :)
385 2010-12-13 04:06:17 <mwally> I suspect, if the code proves to be fraud-proof, that this will indeed take off, at least amongst a certain element.
386 2010-12-13 04:06:28 <noagendamarket> lets hope so
387 2010-12-13 04:07:02 <noagendamarket> it needs some scrutiny by third party security experts
388 2010-12-13 04:07:04 <Phoebus> I'd invite security people and penn-testers to crack at it non-stop.
389 2010-12-13 04:07:10 <Phoebus> noagendamarket, haha, exactly.
390 2010-12-13 04:07:21 <noagendamarket> thats exactly what is needed
391 2010-12-13 04:07:24 <Phoebus> My hacker-buddy from way back is a professional in it security nowdays, with a masters.
392 2010-12-13 04:07:30 <Phoebus> I'll send him a pm.
393 2010-12-13 04:07:31 <noagendamarket> ooh
394 2010-12-13 04:07:56 <noagendamarket> well thats helpful
395 2010-12-13 04:08:01 <nanotube> sounds cool, Phoebus
396 2010-12-13 04:08:25 <Phoebus> Just pmed him on FB, let's see what he says.
397 2010-12-13 04:08:58 <mwally> With billions of potential users, and less than 20M of available coins, I can see the possibility of these being very valuable.
398 2010-12-13 04:08:59 <nanotube> and while you are at it.. get off fb and get on diaspora </offtopic> heh
399 2010-12-13 04:09:08 <nanotube> mwally: that's not a new thought. :D
400 2010-12-13 04:09:26 <Phoebus> nanotube, I'm not sure I want to be on diaspora yet. Sounds like I always have to run a client to do so.
401 2010-12-13 04:09:30 <mwally> I bet it isn't, but I am very new to the concept, and in awe at the moment. :D~
402 2010-12-13 04:09:40 <Phoebus> Fb works, I use it as a tool. I may also use diaspora if I don't have to invest too much time into it.
403 2010-12-13 04:09:44 <nanotube> Phoebus: no, you can join an existing pod.
404 2010-12-13 04:09:46 <Phoebus> But I like the idea behind diaspora overall.
405 2010-12-13 04:09:59 <Phoebus> K, low on my todo list, but noted! :)
406 2010-12-13 04:10:00 <nanotube> you /can/ run your own instance... but you don't /have/ to.
407 2010-12-13 04:10:08 <da2ce7> G'Day Bitcoiners!
408 2010-12-13 04:10:08 <Phoebus> I see.
409 2010-12-13 04:10:25 <nanotube> hey da2ce7 ! :) what brings you here from the forums ? :)
410 2010-12-13 04:11:17 <da2ce7> ah, had some time on my hands, so decided to dig up mIRC and say hi.
411 2010-12-13 04:12:29 <nanotube> well, howdy :)
412 2010-12-13 04:14:01 <noagendamarket> howdy da2ce7
413 2010-12-13 04:15:43 <Phoebus> nanotube, diaspora is not even open to the public yet, but signed for an invite.
414 2010-12-13 04:18:30 <nanotube> Phoebus: there are many pods other than the official pod that are free to sign up with.
415 2010-12-13 04:21:29 <Phoebus> I know this is off-topic from this channel, but I still don't really get how diaspora plans to work. I'm not that confident about.. singing up with half the pods I found so far :P
416 2010-12-13 04:21:37 <Phoebus> I assume, you can see anyone's profile regardless of the pod.
417 2010-12-13 04:21:45 <Phoebus> But what happens if your pod goes down?
418 2010-12-13 04:22:07 <mwally> Am I correct in understanding that BitCoin is 100% decentralized, requiring nothing but the clients for full functionality?
419 2010-12-13 04:23:52 <Phoebus> Nvm the q's asking in their channel instead :P
420 2010-12-13 04:24:08 <zzop> mwally: It uses IRC to bootstrap, but my understanding is that that's basically correct.
421 2010-12-13 04:24:43 <Phoebus> You could easily DDoS the irc server though.
422 2010-12-13 04:28:57 <mwally> I remember reading that the IRC server isn't entirely required, that a list of known nodes is local, and the client can discover the rest once it finds one live one.
423 2010-12-13 04:29:26 <nanotube> mwally: that is correct
424 2010-12-13 04:29:35 <noagendamarket> thats correct
425 2010-12-13 04:35:27 <nanotube> there's also a list of fallback nodes on the wiki (most are damn fast)
426 2010-12-13 04:59:19 <mwally> Does anyone know why the figure 21 million was chosen?
427 2010-12-13 04:59:39 <nanotube> mwally: not me....
428 2010-12-13 05:07:01 <MT`AwAy> seems like ECC indeed also pk encryption, which means it would be possible to send someone an encrypted message (in transaction) if you know their uncompressed address
429 2010-12-13 05:07:52 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: yes ecdsa is asymmetric crypto
430 2010-12-13 05:08:04 <MT`AwAy> no, ECDSA is signature
431 2010-12-13 05:08:10 <MT`AwAy> ECIES is asymetric crypto
432 2010-12-13 05:08:39 <nanotube> signature also requires asymmetric keys
433 2010-12-13 05:09:02 <MT`AwAy> yes, but cannot do encryption
434 2010-12-13 05:09:06 <MT`AwAy> for ECDSA
435 2010-12-13 05:09:58 <MT`AwAy> the goal here would be one day to be able to include a message in the transaction, preferrably encrypted in a way only the receipient can decrypt
436 2010-12-13 05:10:30 <MT`AwAy> problem is, whoever is sending the message do not know the receipient public key, except if it has been previously used to send coins somewhere
437 2010-12-13 05:16:11 <MT`AwAy> good morning world
438 2010-12-13 05:16:21 <MT`AwAy> it's 15:16 here in Japan and I just woke up
439 2010-12-13 05:16:35 <MT`AwAy> (and 15 minutes ago I was still in the process of "waking up")
440 2010-12-13 05:18:50 <Kiba> 3 PM?
441 2010-12-13 05:23:01 <thrashaholic> must be nice
442 2010-12-13 05:30:14 <Phoebus> Anyone using mybitcoin.com? Seems like a nice website/interface. Just fwed to my own address though.
443 2010-12-13 05:33:32 <Kiba> tahoe-lafs need a lot of work
444 2010-12-13 05:34:52 <doublec> Kiba, in what way?
445 2010-12-13 05:36:01 <Kiba> like, I don't know...improve the efficency
446 2010-12-13 05:36:13 <Kiba> took like 5 minutes to upload
447 2010-12-13 05:37:13 <aksez> Are people bitcoining on their iPhones?
448 2010-12-13 05:37:31 <Kiba> I don't think there's an app on iphone for bitcoin
449 2010-12-13 05:38:18 <aksez> ok i call it
450 2010-12-13 05:38:26 <aksez> that means no one else can make it until i do
451 2010-12-13 05:38:32 <Phoebus> lols
452 2010-12-13 05:38:44 <Kiba> everybody is free to do whatever they want...
453 2010-12-13 05:38:46 <Phoebus> Why not make it for android first? You don't need pre-approval by daddy Apple.
454 2010-12-13 05:39:13 <MT`AwAy> why not make it for both? :D
455 2010-12-13 05:39:28 <MT`AwAy> stuff like phonegap should be enough
456 2010-12-13 05:39:28 <Phoebus> He can make it for android, get a crowd, and then make it for the iphone as well.
457 2010-12-13 05:39:40 <Phoebus> But iphone apps need to apply, and be approved to actually be used.
458 2010-12-13 05:39:55 <Kiba> If you make an android client for bitcoin, you will get lot of bitcoin
459 2010-12-13 05:40:07 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: I know, but phonegap allows you to make apps for both using html/js (and you get extra api)
460 2010-12-13 05:40:22 <aksez> na, i dont use the Andrioid
461 2010-12-13 05:40:25 <Phoebus> You could do that too, yeah and save the extra step.
462 2010-12-13 05:40:34 <Kiba> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1812.0
463 2010-12-13 05:40:42 <bitbot> Android Bitcoin Client Bounty (1740 BTC pledged)
464 2010-12-13 05:40:49 <Phoebus> ^
465 2010-12-13 05:41:07 <aksez> i think iPhone to iPhone transfers could be handy
466 2010-12-13 05:41:33 <Kiba> well, nobody is pledging anything for iphone
467 2010-12-13 05:41:40 <Kiba> android is more profitable
468 2010-12-13 05:41:43 <da2ce7> Windows Phone 7 Client :D
469 2010-12-13 05:41:45 <Phoebus> ifanboiz ftw :P
470 2010-12-13 05:41:59 <doublec> aksez, I have it running on my N900
471 2010-12-13 05:42:00 <Kiba> even worse for also-ran window
472 2010-12-13 05:42:12 <Phoebus> doublec, nice.
473 2010-12-13 05:42:27 <Phoebus> doublec, how do you sync with your desktop *.dat(s)?
474 2010-12-13 05:42:40 <doublec> Phoebus, I don't. I run bitcoind on the phone and it has its own wallet.
475 2010-12-13 05:42:44 <Diablo-D3> Phoebus: he just issues a transaction
476 2010-12-13 05:42:47 <doublec> Phoebus, I transfer coins to and from my desktop.
477 2010-12-13 05:42:59 <Phoebus> Ah, ok. So you fill the wallet from the desktop as needed, k.
478 2010-12-13 05:43:19 <aksez> doublec, no shit, does that thing run linux?
479 2010-12-13 05:43:27 <doublec> aksez, yes
480 2010-12-13 05:44:04 <aksez> doublec, has it come in handy?
481 2010-12-13 05:44:57 <doublec> aksez, Only as a central place to keep bitcions
482 2010-12-13 05:45:19 <doublec> aksez, or for when I'm travelling and want to do some btc transactions
483 2010-12-13 05:45:31 <doublec> aksez, not really useful for buying 'real world' things yet
484 2010-12-13 05:45:59 <aksez> is there any problem with it using up alot of bandwidth and CPU to get blocks and calc hashes?
485 2010-12-13 05:46:30 <Phoebus> ^
486 2010-12-13 05:46:40 <doublec> aksez, only to get the original block chain. That took a long time and I did it over wifi.
487 2010-12-13 05:46:48 <da2ce7> A phone clients should have it's own wallet, however that wallet should be a subset of your secure desktop wallet.  If you loose your phone, you still can spend your coins from your desktop, however your phone only has your 'lunch money' private keys on it, so when somebody steals it, they can only steal a small ammout of bitcoins.
488 2010-12-13 05:47:05 <doublec> aksez, since then I run it 24x7 and it's not too bad on battery life and cpu
489 2010-12-13 05:47:17 <Phoebus> da2ce7, I like that.
490 2010-12-13 05:47:25 <thrashaholic> da2ce7: if you had a wallet on the phone, that's the best way to do it
491 2010-12-13 05:47:26 <aksez> neat
492 2010-12-13 05:47:28 <doublec> aksez, I still easily get a days use out of the phone with bitcoind and various IM programs running
493 2010-12-13 05:47:39 <thrashaholic> i'd prefer to just use a remote client myself, though.
494 2010-12-13 05:47:51 <aksez> doublec, sounds like u are a bussy guy
495 2010-12-13 05:48:10 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: with my bitcoin client if you have the same key in two wallets, spending from one will appear on the other
496 2010-12-13 05:48:16 <thrashaholic> that bounty is kinda low for the android client too, imho...
497 2010-12-13 05:48:19 <MT`AwAy> (dunno about official client)
498 2010-12-13 05:48:20 <Phoebus> How secure are bitcoin clients from local access? How well secured can it be? Protecting a user account in most OS's is near impossible.
499 2010-12-13 05:48:22 <doublec> aksez, not really. Just most of my phone usage is actually via skype and im rather than cell calls
500 2010-12-13 05:48:43 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat is 0700 by default
501 2010-12-13 05:48:52 <MT`AwAy> (for linux/mac)
502 2010-12-13 05:49:16 <aksez> yea, personally im going to ditch my cellular phone plan next month
503 2010-12-13 05:49:24 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, yeah but say on windows. There is nothing to stop someone from removing my password hash and using it. So far.
504 2010-12-13 05:49:55 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: in my qbitcoin client, I'm planning to add private key encryption, so each time you want to make a transaction you'll have to provide a password
505 2010-12-13 05:50:01 <Phoebus> OS X, and Unix overall has decent account protection, but not great either. So the weakest point so far is the OS user acc itself.
506 2010-12-13 05:50:12 <MT`AwAy> (ie, someone with your wallet could know how much you have, but not use it)
507 2010-12-13 05:50:13 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, k good, I like that.
508 2010-12-13 05:50:16 <thrashaholic> physical access is always the weakest link
509 2010-12-13 05:50:33 <MT`AwAy> as long as you don't have a keylogger on your computer it should be fine
510 2010-12-13 05:50:41 <Phoebus> thrashaholic, my ebank requires an RSA key aside my insane passwords to actually do something with the account.
511 2010-12-13 05:50:56 <Phoebus> thrashaholic, they can steal my user/pass and log in, but it's useless, they'd only be able to look at the accounts.
512 2010-12-13 05:51:03 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: isn't the private key thing vulnerable to....let say...
513 2010-12-13 05:51:09 <thrashaholic> that's the exception
514 2010-12-13 05:51:15 <Kiba> hard drive crash?
515 2010-12-13 05:51:23 <thrashaholic> 99% of the people in the world don't have RSA fobs for their bank accounts :)
516 2010-12-13 05:51:27 <Kiba> that what tahoe is for, right?
517 2010-12-13 05:51:34 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: if the wallet is encrypted, backing it up is a bit less dangerous
518 2010-12-13 05:51:35 <Phoebus> Hehe, true, that's too bad :P
519 2010-12-13 05:51:36 <thrashaholic> what bank is that, anyway?
520 2010-12-13 05:51:54 <Phoebus> Pireaus bank. (Greek)
521 2010-12-13 05:52:01 <thrashaholic> ah
522 2010-12-13 05:52:07 <thrashaholic> interesting
523 2010-12-13 05:52:14 <MT`AwAy> my bank has a RSA "unique id" thingy
524 2010-12-13 05:52:16 <da2ce7> I use winrar and send an encripted arcihive of my wallet to myself on gmail.
525 2010-12-13 05:52:18 <Phoebus> I know, we're security freaks back home.
526 2010-12-13 05:52:26 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, nice
527 2010-12-13 05:52:36 <MT`AwAy> well, "one time password"
528 2010-12-13 05:52:42 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, which bank?
529 2010-12-13 05:52:51 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: Japanese bank, name is SMBC
530 2010-12-13 05:52:57 <MT`AwAy> ( http://www.smbc.co.jp/ )
531 2010-12-13 05:53:04 <Phoebus> Ah, no I have an RSA key, codes change every couple of minutes.
532 2010-12-13 05:53:09 <Phoebus> Using a stale code gets you nowhere.
533 2010-12-13 05:53:15 <MT`AwAy> here it's every 1 minute
534 2010-12-13 05:53:26 <Phoebus> Yeah, it's about so, actually maybe a bit less.
535 2010-12-13 05:53:30 <Kiba> how does that work?
536 2010-12-13 05:53:31 <Phoebus> I'd say that's pretty secure.
537 2010-12-13 05:53:34 <thrashaholic> a fob or a card?
538 2010-12-13 05:53:43 <Phoebus> USB key.
539 2010-12-13 05:53:52 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: do you know how pseudo random generators work?
540 2010-12-13 05:53:52 <thrashaholic> so a card in essence
541 2010-12-13 05:53:58 <Phoebus> Yeah.
542 2010-12-13 05:54:03 <thrashaholic> the RSA + passphrase unlocks your private keys on the usb key
543 2010-12-13 05:54:11 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: you give a seed (something random) and you get random numbers. If you give the same seed twice, you get the same random numbers twice too
544 2010-12-13 05:54:15 <Phoebus> thrashaholic, yeah.
545 2010-12-13 05:54:26 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: the RSA thing works on almost the same concept, except it's way more complex :)
546 2010-12-13 05:54:32 <thrashaholic> i always wanted to do my whole personal information like that, website passwords and all
547 2010-12-13 05:54:42 <Phoebus> thrashaholic, that would be awesome.
548 2010-12-13 05:54:44 <thrashaholic> unfortunately not many sites i use support client certificates hehe
549 2010-12-13 05:54:46 <Phoebus> Someone needs to offer that.
550 2010-12-13 05:55:03 <Phoebus> I'd even pay, for one site to manage and secure my accounts.
551 2010-12-13 05:55:12 <thrashaholic> it wouldn't be too hard, a special firefox extension...things like it exist already - but i don't think anyone's packaged it all together
552 2010-12-13 05:55:15 <Kiba> most secure bitcoin bank, with 100% reserve banking! NO bank run!
553 2010-12-13 05:55:16 <MT`AwAy> I implemented client certificates on my site, but it was a pain
554 2010-12-13 05:55:17 <Phoebus> Fb, gmail, etc, link it all in one, then tie it to RSA.
555 2010-12-13 05:55:30 <thrashaholic> MT, i've done it too
556 2010-12-13 05:55:36 <MT`AwAy> it was a pain for MSIE
557 2010-12-13 05:55:37 <thrashaholic> very satifying in the end, though, but a total pain in the ass
558 2010-12-13 05:55:40 <MT`AwAy> need to ask the client to install the CA
559 2010-12-13 05:55:48 <thrashaholic> i no longer support IE for any of my works
560 2010-12-13 05:55:51 <MT`AwAy> :D
561 2010-12-13 05:55:53 <MT`AwAy> I wish I could
562 2010-12-13 05:55:55 <thrashaholic> cause im a jerk
563 2010-12-13 05:55:57 <Phoebus> thrashaholic, I second that :P
564 2010-12-13 05:56:04 <Phoebus> But cuz IE sucks bollox.
565 2010-12-13 05:56:24 <thrashaholic> well, i once was at a talk that doug crockford gave where he essentialy was calling for a new browser war
566 2010-12-13 05:56:26 <Phoebus> Sometimes I'll script the - use a modern browser. And give them links to FF, Chrome, Opera.
567 2010-12-13 05:56:27 <aksez> does the usb "key" do the encipherment or is your private key passed on to the OS?
568 2010-12-13 05:56:28 <thrashaholic> and i took it to heart :)
569 2010-12-13 05:56:59 <MT`AwAy> aksez: if it's done the right way it's supposed to do the encryption itself
570 2010-12-13 05:57:04 <thrashaholic> luckily im in a position to dictate the useage for 90% of the apps i make
571 2010-12-13 05:57:11 <Phoebus> Good.
572 2010-12-13 05:57:19 <aksez> Phoebus, what about using x.509 instead of RSA?
573 2010-12-13 05:57:20 <thrashaholic> only took me ten years, lol
574 2010-12-13 05:57:29 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: I'm CEO of my company, but I can't throw customers using MSIE away for now
575 2010-12-13 05:57:39 <Phoebus> aksez, don't know m8.
576 2010-12-13 05:57:54 <Kiba> before it was even called Firefox
577 2010-12-13 05:58:02 <thrashaholic> MT - i only support IE 7 + for commercial sites, and even at that, i dont spend three weeks tweaking IE 7 to look 100% pixel perfect
578 2010-12-13 05:58:03 <Phoebus> Personally I love Opera.
579 2010-12-13 05:58:09 <Kiba> and I was like....11-12 years old
580 2010-12-13 05:58:14 <Kiba> in the 4 grade nonetheless
581 2010-12-13 05:58:23 <Kiba> err
582 2010-12-13 05:58:26 <thrashaholic> as long as it's usable, i let it go, 8 and 9 are usually fine
583 2010-12-13 05:58:28 <Phoebus> Used it since 97, but back then as an alternative.
584 2010-12-13 05:58:33 <Kiba> 6th grade
585 2010-12-13 05:58:36 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: same here, IE7/8 (sometimes with IE7 emulation)
586 2010-12-13 05:58:52 <Phoebus> I use IE emulation inside of opera, that's as far as I'll go :P
587 2010-12-13 05:58:54 <Kiba> 6th or 7th grade
588 2010-12-13 05:59:00 <thrashaholic> luckily the market share for 6 has dropped a ton
589 2010-12-13 05:59:12 <da2ce7> IE 9 is great, however I use chrome for regular browsing.
590 2010-12-13 05:59:14 <MT`AwAy> I was surprised to see that most of the time sites that work fine in IE7 won't in IE8
591 2010-12-13 05:59:18 <thrashaholic> i think on one of my major websites, it's less than 15%
592 2010-12-13 05:59:25 <aksez> MT`AwAy, what kind of sites do u have that are doing client auth?
593 2010-12-13 05:59:34 <MT`AwAy> I wish microsoft would just switch to webkit, would make things so much easier
594 2010-12-13 05:59:45 <thrashaholic> never going to happen
595 2010-12-13 05:59:49 <MT`AwAy> aksez: http://www.uid.st/ (dunno if the key generation still works, I moved a lot of stuff around recently)
596 2010-12-13 05:59:53 <thrashaholic> what they really need to do is get out of the browser market altogether
597 2010-12-13 05:59:54 <Kiba> NIH syndrome
598 2010-12-13 06:00:10 <thrashaholic> just let the enterprise customers with shitty activex sites keep 6 or 7 and be done with it
599 2010-12-13 06:00:19 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: if they do that again, we will be stuck supporting the same IE version for eyars
600 2010-12-13 06:00:30 <thrashaholic> we already are if those are your customers
601 2010-12-13 06:00:47 <aksez> MT`AwAy, https://www.uid.st/about was a 404
602 2010-12-13 06:00:51 <thrashaholic> i know poor souls who still deal with 5.5
603 2010-12-13 06:00:56 <MT`AwAy> aksez: yep, the site is far from complete
604 2010-12-13 06:01:00 <thrashaholic> because of lazy enterprise IT departments and CTOs :)
605 2010-12-13 06:01:06 <aksez> need any help?
606 2010-12-13 06:01:15 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: reminds me, I had a customer running IE5.5 on mac, because he only wants to use IE but only has a mac
607 2010-12-13 06:01:25 <MT`AwAy> aksez: you can do design+html ?
608 2010-12-13 06:01:40 <MT`AwAy> (+integration to templates engine)
609 2010-12-13 06:01:43 <aksez> yes MT`AwAy i can do this
610 2010-12-13 06:01:43 <thrashaholic> there's a point where the ROI is not even worth taking on clients like that you know
611 2010-12-13 06:01:51 <MT`AwAy> aksez: mind getting paid in bitcoins? :p
612 2010-12-13 06:01:56 <thrashaholic> unless you charge them out the ass for being asshats ;)
613 2010-12-13 06:02:02 <aksez> i have experience with PKI servers
614 2010-12-13 06:02:10 <Kiba> aksez: what's your portifolio?
615 2010-12-13 06:02:12 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: I usually charge them more, or have them switch to firefox/Chrome
616 2010-12-13 06:02:18 <thrashaholic> good
617 2010-12-13 06:02:22 <thrashaholic> that reminds me
618 2010-12-13 06:02:29 <thrashaholic> anyone here have much experience with xmpp ?
619 2010-12-13 06:02:43 <aksez> MT`AwAy, i would not mind some bitcoins
620 2010-12-13 06:02:53 <thrashaholic> why QT, if I may ask
621 2010-12-13 06:03:01 <thrashaholic> that'll turn a lot of folks off ( like me )
622 2010-12-13 06:03:11 <MT`AwAy> aksez: PKI servers experience is not required, however I'm looking for people to do/maintain websites
623 2010-12-13 06:03:23 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: because it's portable and work nicely on mac/linux/windows
624 2010-12-13 06:03:32 <MT`AwAy> (and some other mobile devices too)
625 2010-12-13 06:03:40 <thrashaholic> such a meego
626 2010-12-13 06:03:42 <thrashaholic> as
627 2010-12-13 06:03:48 <aksez> MT`AwAy, i am a web application developer with experience in PERL and CMSs
628 2010-12-13 06:03:50 <da2ce7> qt is great, cross platform, maybe a nokia gui?
629 2010-12-13 06:04:11 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: Qt is used on the nokia S60
630 2010-12-13 06:04:13 <Kiba> I sucks at choosing color or anything
631 2010-12-13 06:04:31 <thrashaholic> Kiba...there are websites that generate color schemes....just pick a "root" colour
632 2010-12-13 06:04:36 <MT`AwAy> aksez: I don't need programming skills, stuff go through a templates system I made
633 2010-12-13 06:04:41 <thrashaholic> stick with a 3 colour scheme
634 2010-12-13 06:11:46 <Phoebus> So, 21mil issues, 4mil in circulation. But doesn't he who does the exchanges really keep the funds/make a killing by giving you something that is not yet usable for something that is? I'm missing something there.
635 2010-12-13 06:12:24 <Phoebus> Unless you decide not to exchange yourself, but accept payments. Though someone has to, if they're to connect with the global economy.
636 2010-12-13 06:12:33 <Kiba> hmm
637 2010-12-13 06:12:42 <Kiba> like what?
638 2010-12-13 06:13:05 <Kiba> exchanges are neccesary to seed price estimation of bitcoin
639 2010-12-13 06:13:13 <Kiba> otherwise, how do we know bitcoin is worth?
640 2010-12-13 06:13:47 <Phoebus> Ok, can I exchange real currency for bc myself? Why do I have to give money over to someone. Basically, there's someone who is rich by just issuing the units.
641 2010-12-13 06:13:50 <Phoebus> And exchanging them.
642 2010-12-13 06:14:01 <thrashaholic> theyre not one in the same
643 2010-12-13 06:14:12 <thrashaholic> the one you're exchanging with has to usually buy the btc
644 2010-12-13 06:14:17 <thrashaholic> so theyre not getting very rich
645 2010-12-13 06:14:47 <MT`AwAy> the people who have the unit are not "rich" because they invested a lot of hardware to generate units
646 2010-12-13 06:14:58 <Kiba> you have to understand that exchanges betwene two are mutually agreed on
647 2010-12-13 06:15:10 <Phoebus> I don't know that.
648 2010-12-13 06:15:25 <Phoebus> Or what their actual side of the investment is.
649 2010-12-13 06:15:37 <Phoebus> You could use someone else's hardware as well.
650 2010-12-13 06:15:40 <Kiba> in any case, it's an agreement between two parties
651 2010-12-13 06:16:57 <Phoebus> Let's say, I invent a currency, issue 2000. Now tell you, you need to buy them to be able to trade. So you do, but I keep the currency you exchanged, and give you units back. Now I have currency that is widely used, and you have units that don't have much value of exchange yet.
652 2010-12-13 06:18:18 <Phoebus> I'm the only one who can exchange it back for your currency, if I want. Otherwise, you're stuck with those units.
653 2010-12-13 06:18:25 <Phoebus> And no way to spend them.
654 2010-12-13 06:18:44 <Kiba> you agreed to them.
655 2010-12-13 06:18:47 <Phoebus> Unlike shares, where you get a divident, so they're not completely arbitrary.
656 2010-12-13 06:18:48 <Kiba> in the first place
657 2010-12-13 06:18:51 <Kiba> so it's all good.
658 2010-12-13 06:18:57 <Phoebus> And at some point, you can sell them, in a large market.
659 2010-12-13 06:19:25 <Phoebus> This is breaking my head, I need to see a model :P
660 2010-12-13 06:20:45 <Keefe> Phoebus: keep in mind that creation of bitcoins is not by one central entity
661 2010-12-13 06:20:48 <Phoebus> The project I was thinkig to do with cyclos starts at the users. A user comes in, and bids say 20 units for someone to say wash his car. Another user, sees the bid, and agrees, or a 3rd offers to do it for 19 units who knows. In any case, the units are meaningless until they are used.
662 2010-12-13 06:21:15 <Kiba> cyclos is a credit system, am I right?
663 2010-12-13 06:21:16 <Phoebus> So, the bid is put up, the task in other words -- and when the person willing to do the task for units shows up, gets rewarded in units vs currency.
664 2010-12-13 06:21:45 <Phoebus> He/she then can actually go ahead and bid on something else, and now has units to pay another. But you can start with 0, and an agreed upon exchange of services.
665 2010-12-13 06:21:52 <Phoebus> Say, 1 hour for 20 credits.
666 2010-12-13 06:22:10 <Phoebus> Then, you need to balance the system against inflation, unreasonable agreements.
667 2010-12-13 06:22:48 <Phoebus> Kiba, http://project.cyclos.org/
668 2010-12-13 06:22:54 <Phoebus> It has a demo and everything.
669 2010-12-13 06:29:03 <Phoebus> Implementations inclute LETS, barter and time bank. I understand the time bank and barter, not so familiar with LETS.
670 2010-12-13 06:29:14 <Phoebus> I'd like to do a time bank for starters.
671 2010-12-13 06:29:25 <Kiba> what is a time bank?
672 2010-12-13 06:29:46 <Phoebus> Someone does something for you, his time is tracked, he can use that to get other things done for him, in essence.
673 2010-12-13 06:29:48 <Kiba> is it like you store how much times you're do x, y, z work?
674 2010-12-13 06:29:57 <Kiba> meh, just offer money
675 2010-12-13 06:30:00 <Phoebus> So a town can operate even during economic crash.
676 2010-12-13 06:30:19 <Phoebus> Kiba, you don't have that option when money is worthless :P
677 2010-12-13 06:30:32 <Kiba> ok.
678 2010-12-13 06:31:33 <Kiba> meh. I think I just use money when there is money.
679 2010-12-13 06:32:27 <Phoebus> Kiba, so what does a person do when they have none. There are no jobs to get some. But people in the neighborhood need stuff done, but they also have none.
680 2010-12-13 06:32:37 <Phoebus> You know, this happens - in say impoverished nations/neighborhoods.
681 2010-12-13 06:32:42 <Phoebus> And they become stagnant.
682 2010-12-13 06:32:52 <Phoebus> When they could be organizing and helping each other.
683 2010-12-13 06:32:57 <Kiba> so they have no goods to barter?
684 2010-12-13 06:33:09 <Kiba> what if I do unproductive work?
685 2010-12-13 06:33:13 <Phoebus> Some do, some don't.
686 2010-12-13 06:33:32 <Kiba> if I take forever to do something, others will be obligated to work forever
687 2010-12-13 06:33:42 <Phoebus> Same as if you did poor work for pay, you break an agreement, you deal with the consequences.
688 2010-12-13 06:33:45 <Kiba> why not do things like I will produce x if you produce y
689 2010-12-13 06:34:02 <Phoebus> hmm?
690 2010-12-13 06:34:15 <Kiba> specify in term of direct output