1 2010-12-15 00:01:25 <ByteCoin> May I post your code to the forum. I believe it may suffer from a similar flaw to appamatto's
2 2010-12-15 00:01:30 <ByteCoin> please?
3 2010-12-15 00:01:46 <ByteCoin> I will post a reply with my findings...
4 2010-12-15 00:01:51 <ByteCoin> Will take some time though...
5 2010-12-15 00:01:58 <ByteCoin> Happy to discuss
6 2010-12-15 00:02:02 <ByteCoin> now
7 2010-12-15 00:02:04 <ArtForz> sure, whatever
8 2010-12-15 00:02:06 <ByteCoin> ish
9 2010-12-15 00:02:09 <ArtForz> I knwo it's inaccurate
10 2010-12-15 00:02:12 <ByteCoin> Cool. Thx
11 2010-12-15 00:02:19 <ArtForz> doesnt properly model race situations
12 2010-12-15 00:03:06 <ByteCoin> I'm suspicious that because you "generate blocks" in two places in the code it's not counting things properly...
13 2010-12-15 00:03:28 <ArtForz> huh?
14 2010-12-15 00:04:08 <ByteCoin> It's hard to explain at this time of night...
15 2010-12-15 00:05:20 <ByteCoin> Suffice to say, that if I submit a string of ACCAACCAAACC data in place of your random function, the results should be essentially the same regardless of whether I miss off one character from the start of the string. Do you agree?
16 2010-12-15 00:06:18 <ArtForz> errr. not quite
17 2010-12-15 00:06:32 <ByteCoin> The choice of whether the next block was generated by A or C has a different effect depending on where it occurs in the code.
18 2010-12-15 00:06:44 <ByteCoin> Artforz explain why not quite?
19 2010-12-15 00:07:34 <ArtForz> you're missing the case of next block found by A and C
20 2010-12-15 00:07:50 <ByteCoin> Ok. I thought you might mention that,...
21 2010-12-15 00:08:19 <ArtForz> = A and C both finding a block in one timestep without knowing about the other side
22 2010-12-15 00:08:33 <ByteCoin> So if I submit a string of ACCAABAACCCB etc where B indicates that the next block is found by A and C then you would be happy??
23 2010-12-15 00:08:37 <ArtForz> thats also why increasing the timestep causes more races
24 2010-12-15 00:08:45 <ArtForz> yup
25 2010-12-15 00:09:28 <ArtForz> I'm completely restructuring it anyways
26 2010-12-15 00:09:32 <ByteCoin> If one symbol is missed off the start of any arbitrary sequence of plausible ACB characters then it should have a negligable effect on the overall outcome?
27 2010-12-15 00:09:37 <ArtForz> sure
28 2010-12-15 00:10:04 <ArtForz> 2 "A" populations for tiebreaking
29 2010-12-15 00:10:44 <ByteCoin> I will aim to show that your program is defective by finding a string where missing off one initial character produces very different results.
30 2010-12-15 00:10:57 <ArtForz> thats easy
31 2010-12-15 00:11:04 <ArtForz> "AC"
32 2010-12-15 00:11:24 <ByteCoin> You would accept that such a string would demonstrate a flaw in your program. We're talking LOOOONG strings
33 2010-12-15 00:11:34 <ArtForz> errr... no
34 2010-12-15 00:11:41 <ByteCoin> Strings millions of characters long.
35 2010-12-15 00:12:37 <ArtForz> lets see
36 2010-12-15 00:12:43 <ByteCoin> I thought you agreed to "if one symbol is missed off the start of any arbitrary sequence of plausible ACB characters then it should have a negligable effect on the outcome"
37 2010-12-15 00:13:08 <cosurgi> tell me: I need to patch bitcoind in order to allow communication between it and poclbm. Which version of bitcoind I have to patch? Where is the patch?
38 2010-12-15 00:13:46 <cosurgi> (OpenCL 2.1 on my ATI seems to work fine)
39 2010-12-15 00:13:47 <ArtForz> btw, who wins for a B ?
40 2010-12-15 00:13:57 <tcatm> cosurgi: no patch needed :)
41 2010-12-15 00:14:07 <cosurgi> oh!
42 2010-12-15 00:14:28 <ArtForz> and of course you need to have the proper weighting of events
43 2010-12-15 00:15:15 <ByteCoin> B means that both A_found_block and C_found_block are set to true at the same time
44 2010-12-15 00:15:20 <ByteCoin> B= both
45 2010-12-15 00:15:56 <ArtForz> well, as long as the relative occurences of ABC arent skewed, it should work
46 2010-12-15 00:16:03 <tcatm> what about just trying it on a custom testnet?
47 2010-12-15 00:16:29 <cosurgi> tcatm: is it going to work if both poclbm and bitcoind will be both calculating hashes? Or I need to disable it for bitcoind ?
48 2010-12-15 00:16:30 <ByteCoin> Artforz: Fair enough. I will ser to work tomorrow.
49 2010-12-15 00:16:34 <ByteCoin> set
50 2010-12-15 00:16:54 <tcatm> cosurgi: better disable it for bitcoind. It's only a waste of energy.
51 2010-12-15 00:17:01 <cosurgi> ok
52 2010-12-15 00:17:05 <cosurgi> -gen=0
53 2010-12-15 00:18:11 <ByteCoin> Artforz: Just explain a little about what A_chain and C_chain represent?
54 2010-12-15 00:18:15 <ByteCoin> plz
55 2010-12-15 00:18:26 <ArtForz> current block count in the respective chains
56 2010-12-15 00:18:53 <ArtForz> total public chain is A_won_blocks + C_won_blocks
57 2010-12-15 00:20:12 <ByteCoin> Ok. I'm getting there....
58 2010-12-15 00:21:01 <cosurgi> wow.
59 2010-12-15 00:22:21 <cosurgi> 205 Mhs/sec on ATI 5830
60 2010-12-15 00:22:38 <cosurgi> ;;bc,calc 205820
61 2010-12-15 00:22:39 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 205820 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 2 days, 23 hours, 1 minute, and 10 seconds
62 2010-12-15 00:22:59 <cosurgi> is that a speed that you'd expect from ATI 5830 ?
63 2010-12-15 00:23:06 <tcatm> cosurgi: looks right
64 2010-12-15 00:23:16 <cosurgi> good :)
65 2010-12-15 00:23:58 <ArtForz> yep
66 2010-12-15 00:24:05 <cosurgi> thanks :)
67 2010-12-15 00:24:06 <ArtForz> http://pastebin.com/AvymGnMJ
68 2010-12-15 00:24:53 <ByteCoin> I take it back about your program suffering the same flaw....
69 2010-12-15 00:25:40 <ByteCoin> Funny how everyone visualizes the same thing in different ways....
70 2010-12-15 00:27:15 <cosurgi> --frames=1 gives 209 Mhs/s
71 2010-12-15 00:27:27 <cosurgi> anything else I could finetune ?
72 2010-12-15 00:27:36 <ArtForz> hurrm, thats actually pretty damn good
73 2010-12-15 00:27:52 <cosurgi> wow, now it's even 210 MHs/c
74 2010-12-15 00:28:25 <ArtForz> using m0s miner?
75 2010-12-15 00:28:25 <cosurgi> ...oscillating between 209 and 210
76 2010-12-15 00:28:29 <cosurgi> yes
77 2010-12-15 00:28:34 <tcatm> overclocked?
78 2010-12-15 00:28:38 <cosurgi> ~/m0/m0mchil-poclbm-1e3b163$
79 2010-12-15 00:28:40 <cosurgi> no.
80 2010-12-15 00:29:20 <ArtForz> thats... weird
81 2010-12-15 00:29:42 <cosurgi> I just bought that ATI today. I only: inserted that into box (had some problems with cables, etc..) upgraded to debian squeeze, installed ati drivers and opencl, and I've just run that miner. nothing else.
82 2010-12-15 00:29:51 <cosurgi> I don't even knopw how to overclock this :)
83 2010-12-15 00:30:09 <ArtForz> my table is 95% of theoretical peak
84 2010-12-15 00:30:31 <cosurgi> I can paste you some specs of this card
85 2010-12-15 00:30:37 <ArtForz> diablos miner is around there, m0s is usually a tad slower
86 2010-12-15 00:30:37 <cosurgi> just give me the commands you want me to run
87 2010-12-15 00:30:50 <cosurgi> it's all remote terminal, so no fancy GUI fglrc-stuff allowed
88 2010-12-15 00:30:59 <cosurgi> *fglrx-stuff
89 2010-12-15 00:31:00 <ArtForz> so m0s suddenly getting 97.3% theoretical peak is... unexpected
90 2010-12-15 00:31:38 <cosurgi> 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc Radeon HD 5800 Series (Cypress LE)
91 2010-12-15 00:31:55 <cosurgi> ArtForz: where's diablo's miner? :)
92 2010-12-15 00:32:31 <ArtForz> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1721.0
93 2010-12-15 00:32:41 <cosurgi> thanks, checking.... :)
94 2010-12-15 00:32:47 <ArtForz> openCL miner written in java
95 2010-12-15 00:41:24 <fabianhjr> I got 0.10 BTC to spare. Anyone have a suggestion on what to spend them on?
96 2010-12-15 00:41:34 <AAA_awright> Donation?
97 2010-12-15 00:41:44 <AAA_awright> Give it back to the faucet you stole it from
98 2010-12-15 00:41:46 <donpdonp> 2oz of Four Loco
99 2010-12-15 00:41:57 <AAA_awright> ;)
100 2010-12-15 00:43:02 <fabianhjr> WTF are you talking about? I got them to spare, so I was thinking on getting some kiba's art.
101 2010-12-15 00:43:31 <AAA_awright> Woa
102 2010-12-15 00:43:50 <AAA_awright> ...kiba has art?
103 2010-12-15 00:43:58 <cosurgi> thats 2 cents actually :)
104 2010-12-15 00:44:22 <fabianhjr> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1929.0
105 2010-12-15 00:45:00 <kiba> a long running thread of kiba's art project
106 2010-12-15 00:45:27 <kiba> I barely colored the girl's head lol
107 2010-12-15 00:49:12 <fabianhjr> kiba: which one is your favourite.(I can only buy one atm)
108 2010-12-15 00:49:36 <doublec> !pool
109 2010-12-15 00:51:47 <kiba> fabianhjr: they are just the same art piece
110 2010-12-15 00:51:53 <kiba> and it's a work in progress
111 2010-12-15 00:52:07 <kiba> the latest image is the latest revision
112 2010-12-15 00:52:13 <kiba> and oldest image is the ugliest
113 2010-12-15 00:52:28 <fabianhjr> Oh! Do you have any finished work I could use to promote BitCoins(Planing on selling posters and tshirts)
114 2010-12-15 00:52:47 <doublec> ;;bc,calc 200000
115 2010-12-15 00:52:48 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 200000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 3 days, 1 hour, 5 minutes, and 10 seconds
116 2010-12-15 00:53:10 <da2ce7> Proposal Two: Named Addresses is done http://domainchain.org/wiki/doku.php?id=bitname 2/3rds complete.
117 2010-12-15 00:53:36 <AAA_awright> I wonder if I could sell music like that...
118 2010-12-15 00:55:34 <fabianhjr> well, I am actually setting up a pledge for an easy to use PrestaShop module to accept BitCoins as payments. You are welcomed to claim them anytime(Currently mining them)
119 2010-12-15 00:56:05 <fabianhjr> That could help many actually offer products with BitCoins
120 2010-12-15 00:57:51 <kiba> fabianhjr: no. If I was finished, I would already have a t-shirt in print production :P
121 2010-12-15 01:02:46 <fabianhjr> Ok.
122 2010-12-15 01:05:03 <xelister> USA payed people to troyan/backdoor opensource kernels, reports OpenBSD developer. This then probably is true also for Linux. Damn USA spies everywhere, what the hell.
123 2010-12-15 01:07:01 <da2ce7> http://domainchain.org/wiki/doku.php?id=bitname
124 2010-12-15 01:07:17 <da2ce7> done :) well i'm going to flesh it out a bit... what do you think?
125 2010-12-15 01:11:17 <xelister> http://bsd.slashdot.org/story/10/12/15/004235/FBI-Alleged-To-Have-Backdoored-OpenBSDs-IPSEC-Stack
126 2010-12-15 01:11:31 <fabianhjr> xelister, just sniff the traffic from any given box for a week after a kernel upgrade. Search for anything out of ordinary and boom. You got them.
127 2010-12-15 01:12:08 <fabianhjr> Tough, a commit passes trough a lot of revision before it gets pushed to the mainline, 0_o
128 2010-12-15 01:15:35 <cosurgi> hmm.. problems with diablo miner
129 2010-12-15 01:15:46 <cosurgi> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: /home/bitcoin/diablo-miner/DiabloMiner/target/libs/natives/linux/liblwjgl.so: /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-sun-1.6.0.22/jre/lib/i386/libjawt.so: symbol awt_FreeDrawingSurface, version SUNWprivate_1.1 not defined in file libmawt.so with link time reference
130 2010-12-15 01:16:24 <cosurgi> export DISPLAY=:0 seems to have fixed this
131 2010-12-15 01:16:37 <cosurgi> [15.12.10 03:16:07] Started
132 2010-12-15 01:16:38 <cosurgi> [15.12.10 03:16:17] Added Cypress (#1) (14 CU, local work size of 256)
133 2010-12-15 01:16:40 <cosurgi> Waiting...
134 2010-12-15 01:16:59 <cosurgi> huh??
135 2010-12-15 01:17:04 <cosurgi> 213624 khash/sec\n105517
136 2010-12-15 01:18:35 <cosurgi> it is now oscillating between 212 and 214
137 2010-12-15 01:18:48 <ArtForz> guess you got a fast card
138 2010-12-15 01:18:58 <cosurgi> :-D
139 2010-12-15 01:19:05 <ArtForz> happens sometimes, one of my 5970s is also doing this
140 2010-12-15 01:19:42 <cosurgi> is there a C++ OpenCL miner somewhere?
141 2010-12-15 01:19:50 <ArtForz> I dont think so
142 2010-12-15 01:20:11 <cosurgi> ok. so maybe I'll look at that java code and rewrite it into C++
143 2010-12-15 01:20:36 <ArtForz> would be nice, needing JRE on miners is inconvenient
144 2010-12-15 01:20:53 <xelister> fabianhjr: what?
145 2010-12-15 01:21:06 <fabianhjr> ?
146 2010-12-15 01:21:10 <cosurgi> but I still don't get what miner is doing. I only know that it wants to find hashes that start with zeros.
147 2010-12-15 01:21:14 <xelister> fabianhjr: I dont get you ;) how is tracking devel box traffic going to help any shit?
148 2010-12-15 01:21:45 <cosurgi> care to say shortly exact procedure?
149 2010-12-15 01:21:45 <fabianhjr> xelister: if you sniff for a week the keylogger must send the log at least once. Then you will know for sure.
150 2010-12-15 01:21:51 <xelister> United States of American fucking government (allegedly) paid developer to 'donate' troyaned code to open source kernels like openbsd
151 2010-12-15 01:21:59 <fabianhjr> If you develop a Keylogger you want a way to access the logs.
152 2010-12-15 01:22:03 <xelister> fabianhjr: also, what you say is fucking stupid
153 2010-12-15 01:22:16 <fabianhjr> Why?
154 2010-12-15 01:22:26 <xelister> fabianhjr: I could even hide the keylogger report (if that would be the use of the troyan) in timing informations of regular trafic
155 2010-12-15 01:22:44 <xelister> no "watching" would detect such stenography
156 2010-12-15 01:22:52 <cosurgi> wow. it has just hit 216 MHs/s
157 2010-12-15 01:23:03 <cosurgi> now back to 213
158 2010-12-15 01:23:09 <fabianhjr> xelister: if you stego something you still have to send it.
159 2010-12-15 01:23:30 <xelister> fabianhjr: no
160 2010-12-15 01:23:48 <xelister> fabianhjr: just variate timing of the NORMAL traffic a bit, and use this tiny time drifts as bits of your steno
161 2010-12-15 01:24:11 <fabianhjr> Yeah, you neeed a way to get the logs from the victim to the attacker.
162 2010-12-15 01:24:25 <xelister> <xelister> fabianhjr: just variate timing of the NORMAL traffic a bit, and use this tiny time drifts as bits of your steno
163 2010-12-15 01:24:28 <ArtForz> yes, but hiding something like that in open source code... good luck
164 2010-12-15 01:24:40 <xelister> perhaps this attack is too complex for you to understand though, fabianhjr
165 2010-12-15 01:25:18 <xelister> ArtForz: it happened. Attacker: USA gov, target: OpenBSD kernel. Already done (allagedly, they are now verifying how bad the backdoor was and how much that code is still in use today)
166 2010-12-15 01:25:22 <fabianhjr> What you are saying is that you can send data from point A to point B by sneding this data to a random point C and hope it routes to you?
167 2010-12-15 01:25:37 <fabianhjr> Oh!
168 2010-12-15 01:25:38 <xelister> ArtForz: http://bsd.slashdot.org/story/10/12/15/004235/FBI-Alleged-To-Have-Backdoored-OpenBSDs-IPSEC-Stack?from=twitter
169 2010-12-15 01:25:40 <ArtForz> backdoor != keylogger
170 2010-12-15 01:26:11 <xelister> fabianhjr: duuh yeah. Just bribe/mob the ISP of either point A or C. That is what thugs and criminals like usa gov can do well
171 2010-12-15 01:26:25 <fabianhjr> You mean like them reading the actual routing? That would cause a massive lag and would be clearly notisable.
172 2010-12-15 01:26:43 <xelister> fabianhjr: boy you are so naive its even not funny, this FBI is doing for many years
173 2010-12-15 01:26:52 <ArtForz> hiding something like messing up a DH key exchange so it accepts certain "invalid" keys is a LOT easier than hiding a full blown keylogger
174 2010-12-15 01:27:13 <xelister> fabianhjr: actually, for example USA ISPs are REQUIRED BY LAW to prepare equipment for the FBI/other thugs to easly listen on your traffic, on ISP level
175 2010-12-15 01:27:17 <fabianhjr> ArtForz got a point
176 2010-12-15 01:27:44 <fabianhjr> xelister: I am not aware of USA regulations, I apologies.
177 2010-12-15 01:27:59 <xelister> also, for ISP logging all packages times/src/dst is triviall. Even I do it right now
178 2010-12-15 01:28:13 <xelister> and recording it is trivial, and of course introduces no lag
179 2010-12-15 01:28:20 <fabianhjr> Doesn't it cause a lot of lag?
180 2010-12-15 01:28:35 <xelister> I do it RIGHT NOW, of course it makes NO LAG
181 2010-12-15 01:28:45 <xelister> ok perhaps a 0.00001 sec lag
182 2010-12-15 01:28:53 <xelister> if the router would be a pentium I
183 2010-12-15 01:28:59 <fabianhjr> So, let me guess, you cannot filter, however, you make a copy of each packet and send it to another machine for loggging?
184 2010-12-15 01:29:40 <xelister> if computer A have backdoor in firewall stack, then I could steal any information from this computer
185 2010-12-15 01:29:47 <fabianhjr> Sorry, I am newb and I am catching up.
186 2010-12-15 01:30:10 <xelister> computer A sends the packets with a tiny time variance. or special way of 'random' afair cookies or port numbers and so on
187 2010-12-15 01:30:19 <xelister> and this tiny bits can be used as stenography
188 2010-12-15 01:30:21 <fabianhjr> Ok
189 2010-12-15 01:30:30 <fabianhjr> Yeah, I agree.
190 2010-12-15 01:30:37 <xelister> computer A sends to A's ISP, it send to backbone, it sends to other backbone etc
191 2010-12-15 01:30:46 <noagendamarket> I guess since its open source the governemnent can contribute code :)-
192 2010-12-15 01:31:08 <xelister> if A's ISP is for example in USA then it is required to allow fully logging. Then get logs, compare times, filter out noise, and you have the data
193 2010-12-15 01:31:11 <xelister> and that is just one of ideas
194 2010-12-15 01:31:15 <xelister> anyway, that are the tech details
195 2010-12-15 01:31:23 <xelister> the poins was, USA are fucking dick faggots,
196 2010-12-15 01:31:30 <noagendamarket> lol
197 2010-12-15 01:31:37 <xelister> for hiring coders to plant backdoors even in open source kernels
198 2010-12-15 01:31:59 <noagendamarket> You can do that when you can print all the cash you need
199 2010-12-15 01:31:59 <xelister> imho this is even bigger as USA idiots gathering DNA of world leaders and NATO leaders
200 2010-12-15 01:32:28 <xelister> anyway this stroy is developing now, on http://bsd.slashdot.org/story/10/12/15/004235/FBI-Alleged-To-Have-Backdoored-OpenBSDs-IPSEC-Stack and http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/elw0x/allegations_regarding_openbsd_ipsec_fbi_backdoors/c193a5v
201 2010-12-15 01:32:58 <xelister> so if you think your computer is quite secure - think again - uncle sam may be screwing you in the ass right now with such criminal activities
202 2010-12-15 01:33:19 <noagendamarket> ffs
203 2010-12-15 01:33:21 <kiba> you believe everything you read, xelister ?
204 2010-12-15 01:33:43 <kiba> you need some mild skepticalism
205 2010-12-15 01:34:00 <xelister> kiba: I beliver the developer of OpenBSD kernel. And as he said, the story is unfolding right now, we will see where it leads
206 2010-12-15 01:34:33 <midnightmagic> ArtForz: interesting book; seek "Malicious Cryptography: Exposing Cryptovirology" by A. Young, M. Yung.
207 2010-12-15 01:35:09 <midnightmagic> could be as simple as a keygen width reduction. couple bits might do the trick.
208 2010-12-15 01:35:15 <xelister> kiba: but since we knew USA are ok with stuff, like, from killing natives, via posioning watter supply in France with LSD (resulting in few deaths too), via attacking many countries, to smear campaign against wikileaks and to war on own citizens... I think it is well within normal behaviour of this criminakls
209 2010-12-15 01:35:18 <xelister> criminals
210 2010-12-15 01:35:21 <Granttt> is this really any "shock", what took them so long, they announced war on internets a while ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8073654.stm
211 2010-12-15 01:35:47 <noagendamarket> *rages
212 2010-12-15 01:35:48 <kiba> there's criminal behavior and feasialbity of doing said criminal behavior
213 2010-12-15 01:36:17 <kiba> national security is such a murky concept ;)
214 2010-12-15 01:36:20 <midnightmagic> feasibility of a keyspace usage reduction > small. :)
215 2010-12-15 01:36:24 <xelister> kiba: paying some coder to hide a backdoor? it happens all the time even by accident, why it should be not possible to do it on purpose
216 2010-12-15 01:36:39 <noagendamarket> "cyber tsar"
217 2010-12-15 01:36:43 <midnightmagic> "National Security" is a weapon by which the prole is oppressed.
218 2010-12-15 01:36:46 <xelister> Granttt: yeah, what that nigger is doing
219 2010-12-15 01:37:02 <kiba> if you want security, abolish all gun control laws
220 2010-12-15 01:37:02 <noagendamarket> xelister thats a bit much
221 2010-12-15 01:37:05 <midnightmagic> xelister: yeah, now you're just batshit foaming..
222 2010-12-15 01:37:08 <xelister> Granttt: what are the people thinking now? "oh yea we voted the liberal, free, internet friendly guy hehe <3... oh, no... wait..... oh."
223 2010-12-15 01:37:19 <kiba> than if somebody want to invade you, they better be prepared for a long war against civilians
224 2010-12-15 01:37:23 <Granttt> he's just doing his job, the president is decentralized p2p engine of the lobbyists who sponsored him ;)
225 2010-12-15 01:37:23 <xelister> kiba: what do you mean?
226 2010-12-15 01:37:32 <midnightmagic> perhaps trollboy has outlived his useful presence in the channel.
227 2010-12-15 01:37:39 <kiba> xelister: the proliberation of arms amongst civilians....
228 2010-12-15 01:37:46 <xelister> kiba: in USA guns are allowed though
229 2010-12-15 01:38:02 <noagendamarket> not everywhere
230 2010-12-15 01:38:05 <kiba> xelister: some people want to control who get to have guns...
231 2010-12-15 01:38:15 <midnightmagic> racist trolls aren't appreciated.
232 2010-12-15 01:38:21 <xelister> kiba: well I think allowing all guns and allowing much more things is good - in a sense that it makes it harder for grup of thugs (like gov) to get exclusive controll over power
233 2010-12-15 01:38:32 <kiba> xelister: that's the whole point
234 2010-12-15 01:39:32 <kiba> and you can't get something like a bunch of terrorists take over whole planes with a bunch of box cutter or something
235 2010-12-15 01:39:35 <xelister> midnightmagic: nigger please. I have nothing against black people. But I laugh at idiots that put so called "politicall correctness" above anything else. Example: it is o.k. to kill people based on their nationality or race (in example 'sand niggers' in Iraq), but it is bad to say the N- word. Wtf is up with that.
236 2010-12-15 01:40:28 <xelister> but that is just small digression from the topic of - how usa gov are dicks and can we trust then any computing system to be secure
237 2010-12-15 01:40:30 <kiba> real security is not about sending an occupation force to some faraway country
238 2010-12-15 01:40:30 <midnightmagic> xelister: nice pause before escalating. You are a troll. Your timing gives you away.
239 2010-12-15 01:40:43 <midnightmagic> Hey.. OPS.. wtf guys?
240 2010-12-15 01:40:48 <noagendamarket> fed
241 2010-12-15 01:40:53 <xelister> midnightmagic: there is a magic /ignore command
242 2010-12-15 01:40:59 <kiba> xelister is not a troll, just a very passionate person
243 2010-12-15 01:41:04 <xelister> I mean, even hardware CPUs are being backdoored
244 2010-12-15 01:41:05 <ArtForz> yep
245 2010-12-15 01:41:21 <xelister> now the supposedly most secure os, openbsd is (allagedly still) backdoored since 'ever'
246 2010-12-15 01:41:22 <ArtForz> at least xe, diablo and me like to rant about random crazy stuff from time to time
247 2010-12-15 01:41:25 <midnightmagic> sounds trolly to me. that's deliberate antagonism.
248 2010-12-15 01:41:30 <xelister> .me highfives ArtForz
249 2010-12-15 01:42:01 <xelister> I think nowdays man can trust a computing platform, if he builds it from scratch, from logical gates from raw materials
250 2010-12-15 01:42:05 <xelister> this is sad
251 2010-12-15 01:42:58 <noagendamarket> for the 90 per cent of people who dont compile all their own shit its bad
252 2010-12-15 01:43:05 <noagendamarket> thats all that matters
253 2010-12-15 01:43:10 <ArtForz> well, at least obsd has more than 65536 possible rsa keys :P
254 2010-12-15 01:43:19 <xelister> midnightmagic: btw if you fell strongly about problems of racial (or any other) hate, then act on that case where USA police beaten up a black girl 'because', or a Pollock wemen recently. Write your senator or soemthing
255 2010-12-15 01:43:26 <midnightmagic> okay then. xelister, douchebags claim anti-PC as an umbrella for their douchebaggery. That doesn't make them any less douchebaggy.
256 2010-12-15 01:43:57 <xelister> have to go now
257 2010-12-15 01:43:58 <midnightmagic> Also, I'm not American.
258 2010-12-15 01:44:24 <xelister> everyone should tweet/tell friends/or smth about this crap from USA (and other govs;) and about bitcoin by the way o/ bbl o/
259 2010-12-15 01:44:27 <nanotube> that said... you guys might want to take the offtopic discussion to -discussion or something. :)
260 2010-12-15 01:44:48 <nanotube> though i guess it's fine in absence of actual dev-related talk happening at the same time...
261 2010-12-15 01:45:06 <ArtForz> this channel isn't #bitcoin-usually-ot ?
262 2010-12-15 01:45:18 <ArtForz> ;)
263 2010-12-15 01:46:56 <MT`AwAy> (if anyone wants to spend time reading php, the gawker/gizmodo hackers who released the user passwords to the world also included some sourcecodes)
264 2010-12-15 01:48:52 <nanotube> ArtForz: heh yea, de-facto it is ;)
265 2010-12-15 01:49:19 <Zarutian> xelister: that (build computer up from raw materials) or use mutually private computing on two machines http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2007/08/mutually-private-computation.html
266 2010-12-15 01:50:00 <xelister> Zarutian: seems fun
267 2010-12-15 01:50:17 <xelister> Zarutian: randomized things like even say private key generator are problem though etc et
268 2010-12-15 01:50:21 <xelister> but in fact this is one solution
269 2010-12-15 01:50:25 <xelister> ok g2g cya
270 2010-12-15 01:57:20 <xelister> btw if it didnt worked with wikileaks dotations by BTC, then perhaps #openbsd would like.. some1 should ask
271 2010-12-15 02:02:17 <kiba> donation
272 2010-12-15 02:07:04 <MT`AwAy> lol
273 2010-12-15 02:11:45 <noagendamarket> I like that someone wants to send a satellite into space
274 2010-12-15 02:12:09 <noagendamarket> it will be cool if they run a bitcoin client from there
275 2010-12-15 02:12:10 <ArtForz> where else would you send a satellite?
276 2010-12-15 02:12:15 <noagendamarket> haha
277 2010-12-15 02:16:26 <noagendamarket> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2282.0 i was referencing that thread
278 2010-12-15 02:17:28 <aximilation_> hey all
279 2010-12-15 02:20:54 <Auctus> won't bitcoin eventually fill your hard drive with transaction history/blocks/whatever?
280 2010-12-15 02:22:43 <Lysacor> Well tonight I am officially one more to blame for the difficulty going up :P
281 2010-12-15 02:23:02 <Lysacor> ;;bc,calc 334000
282 2010-12-15 02:23:03 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 334000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 day, 19 hours, 45 minutes, and 51 seconds
283 2010-12-15 02:23:17 <Lysacor> ;;bc,estimate
284 2010-12-15 02:23:18 <gribble> 13735.55418392
285 2010-12-15 02:24:36 <noagendamarket> Auctus most of the transactions will be forgotten in future
286 2010-12-15 02:24:44 <ArtForz> doesn't look like we'll be doing x1.4 this time
287 2010-12-15 02:25:55 <ArtForz> we're already > 800 blocks into current difficulty, if rate of growth stays the same we're headed for ~x1.3
288 2010-12-15 02:27:02 <aximilation_> hmm, so if I leave it on for a couple days how much space would I be expecting to see it use?
289 2010-12-15 02:27:05 <Lysacor> well at least as long as we don't get another ~4000 increase like we got last round
290 2010-12-15 02:27:10 <ArtForz> which would nicely balance out the ~ x1.5 from 8078 to 12252
291 2010-12-15 02:28:00 <Lysacor> agreed, at least I won't feel like I wasted money on the investment in this card
292 2010-12-15 02:28:13 <ArtForz> as before we were doing pretty close to x1.4 per difficulty
293 2010-12-15 02:29:05 <Lysacor> We shall see what happens in the coming days. You think there could be a significant swing?
294 2010-12-15 02:29:13 <ArtForz> kinda
295 2010-12-15 02:29:27 <ArtForz> looks like prices are rising again
296 2010-12-15 02:30:16 <Lysacor> yep, I should have had my sell price higher on mtgox, I got a bit excited on the last price spike earlier last week
297 2010-12-15 02:30:32 <noagendamarket> I think they should after all the positive publicity
298 2010-12-15 02:30:38 <ArtForz> yep
299 2010-12-15 02:30:42 <Lysacor> absolutely
300 2010-12-15 02:30:52 <noagendamarket> the EFF just posted another article including bitcoin
301 2010-12-15 02:31:13 <kiba> yeah, we know
302 2010-12-15 02:31:18 <aximilation_> I *just* started running it tonight
303 2010-12-15 02:31:23 <ArtForz> which means more miners expecting a continued uptrend, which makes investing in mining equipment more likely
304 2010-12-15 02:31:48 <Lysacor> welcome to the fun aximilation_ :)
305 2010-12-15 02:31:53 <midnightmagic> sweet..
306 2010-12-15 02:32:00 <aximilation_> thanks :-D
307 2010-12-15 02:32:19 <aximilation_> I'm not sure what to expect with it, but my computer sits idle most offff the time, so hey why not?
308 2010-12-15 02:32:26 <noagendamarket> newegg would make a bit if they sold gpus for bitcoins...
309 2010-12-15 02:32:49 <Lysacor> oh heck yeah they would...
310 2010-12-15 02:33:01 <noagendamarket> probably more than the people buying them lol
311 2010-12-15 02:33:06 <Lysacor> aximilation_: could be worse ways to burn electricity
312 2010-12-15 02:33:19 <aximilation_> haha
313 2010-12-15 02:33:27 <ArtForz> if bitcoin becomes more widespread a few people at are gonna scratch their heads why people keep buying 5970s :P
314 2010-12-15 02:33:39 <noagendamarket> lol
315 2010-12-15 02:33:43 <Lysacor> and then the price will go up perhaps because of demand?
316 2010-12-15 02:33:50 <Lysacor> especially if there is a shortage
317 2010-12-15 02:33:57 <aximilation_> ...and say hello to a bunch of incoming connections to 8333, lolllll
318 2010-12-15 02:34:07 <ArtForz> well, I hope lots of gamers are going for 6970/6990
319 2010-12-15 02:34:16 <ArtForz> = more decent used 5970s on ebay
320 2010-12-15 02:34:37 <Lysacor> mmmm that is true.... 500 USD is still a bit high for me :P
321 2010-12-15 02:34:45 <Lysacor> even though it is 2x my Mhash...
322 2010-12-15 02:34:56 <noagendamarket> what is the difference in hash rates?
323 2010-12-15 02:34:57 <aximilation_> what's this, using video cards to help crunch numbers?
324 2010-12-15 02:35:06 <ArtForz> yup
325 2010-12-15 02:35:10 <Lysacor> hehe GPU mining
326 2010-12-15 02:35:13 <ArtForz> thing is, it doesnt look like 6970 will be good for mining
327 2010-12-15 02:35:15 <kiba> noagendamarket: did ya try my http://www.soulplaying.com todo RPG?
328 2010-12-15 02:35:24 <ArtForz> my calc says about 244Mhash/s
329 2010-12-15 02:35:25 <Lysacor> oh really, I haven't seen the specs on it
330 2010-12-15 02:35:38 <ArtForz> well, rumored specs are 1536 ALUs, 880MHz
331 2010-12-15 02:35:39 <midnightmagic> the GPU is sometimes two orders of magnitude stronger than a moderately-fast CPU in mining.
332 2010-12-15 02:35:44 <ArtForz> release is... today
333 2010-12-15 02:35:50 <aximilation_> oh nice
334 2010-12-15 02:36:04 <midnightmagic> and it's possible to stuff four (or more, I guess) into a single system.
335 2010-12-15 02:36:05 <ArtForz> well, or tommorow, depends on timezone
336 2010-12-15 02:36:28 <noagendamarket> well that would increase difficulty
337 2010-12-15 02:36:42 <kiba> wonders why nobody bother to try out
338 2010-12-15 02:36:45 <ArtForz> afaict NDA lift is 15. 12AM EST
339 2010-12-15 02:36:46 <aximilation_> how does an AMDII x64 2.6ghz rank in the whole scheme of things?
340 2010-12-15 02:36:46 <Lysacor> well, we will see who gets to do the sucker.... err beta testing :P
341 2010-12-15 02:36:47 <kiba> it's a 15 days trial
342 2010-12-15 02:37:27 <ArtForz> but if the leaked specs are true, a 6970 is barely faster than a 5850 for mining
343 2010-12-15 02:37:59 <Lysacor> aximilation_ my wife has one... but won't let me test it on her box... but I estimate a decent amount... I think that those cpu's can do 4-way if I reacll
344 2010-12-15 02:38:01 <Lysacor> recall
345 2010-12-15 02:38:12 <Lysacor> the AMD Phenom II x4 right?
346 2010-12-15 02:38:18 <ArtForz> not too surprising, 58xx was exceptionally ALU-heavy for a GPU
347 2010-12-15 02:38:30 <aximilation_> erm, not sure
348 2010-12-15 02:38:39 <aximilation_> AMD Athlon(tm) II X4 620 Processor
349 2010-12-15 02:38:49 <midnightmagic> I can tell you what an AMD 1090T Black Edition can do..
350 2010-12-15 02:38:52 <Lysacor> aaah, well it is on the lower end
351 2010-12-15 02:39:03 <ArtForz> Ahtlon II is still K10 arch, right?
352 2010-12-15 02:39:15 <Lysacor> I believe so
353 2010-12-15 02:39:22 <ArtForz> should get close to the same hash/MHz/core as a PhenomII
354 2010-12-15 02:39:22 <aximilation_> not sure about it, I just know it runs well :-D
355 2010-12-15 02:39:42 <noagendamarket> damn 5970's are all over $700 AUD
356 2010-12-15 02:39:43 <ArtForz> as the miner loop should be small enough to fit in L1
357 2010-12-15 02:39:54 <ArtForz> australians gets fucked when it comes to tech
358 2010-12-15 02:40:20 <midnightmagic> 3.2GHz, each core using the cpuminer can do about 2.3Mhash/sec; total is about 14Mhash/sec, or (coincidentally) about as fast as a GeForce 9600GT.
359 2010-12-15 02:40:30 <noagendamarket> I dont think its worth it just to mine
360 2010-12-15 02:40:37 <midnightmagic> 5970 here is $500 CAD.
361 2010-12-15 02:40:41 <Lysacor> anyone in the southern hemisphere from what I can tell, Chile is the same way... almost 100% markup
362 2010-12-15 02:41:01 <noagendamarket> probably cost heaps in postage from the states
363 2010-12-15 02:41:08 <aximilation_> so when I run bitcoind is it automatically mining?
364 2010-12-15 02:41:11 <Lysacor> midnightmagic: good lord... decent cpu hash rate indeed
365 2010-12-15 02:41:22 <ArtForz> 5970 here WAS 380EUR incl. 19% VAT, now it's back up to 410
366 2010-12-15 02:41:48 <noagendamarket> I blame you for pushing up demand lol
367 2010-12-15 02:42:14 <Lysacor> didn't you get some ungodly amount of 5970's art?
368 2010-12-15 02:42:17 <ArtForz> 24
369 2010-12-15 02:42:26 <midnightmagic> Lysacor: that's with the 4way core in the cpuminer from.. hrm.. git://github.com/jgarzik/cpuminer.git
370 2010-12-15 02:42:32 <Lysacor> wow... yeah... I don't wanna see that electric bill
371 2010-12-15 02:42:35 <ArtForz> cancelled my order for 12 more, they pushed the shipping date out to january
372 2010-12-15 02:43:14 <Lysacor> there goes the difficulty, thanks for giving me at least a week to TRY to get some generated coins! :D
373 2010-12-15 02:43:31 <ArtForz> guess I made a e-tailer happy (ordered em back when they were 380 a pop)
374 2010-12-15 02:43:56 <Lysacor> damn... I can't find them for less than 499 anywhere, you must have done some research
375 2010-12-15 02:44:11 <ArtForz> thats 380 euros
376 2010-12-15 02:44:33 <Lysacor> aaah not USD
377 2010-12-15 02:44:48 <noagendamarket> I think artforz is plugged directly into a power station
378 2010-12-15 02:45:00 <noagendamarket> with an extension lead lol
379 2010-12-15 02:45:01 <Lysacor> ok sorry, gotta get my shit fiat currency out of my head by default...
380 2010-12-15 02:45:06 <ArtForz> I should write a FAQ
381 2010-12-15 02:45:15 <noagendamarket> haha
382 2010-12-15 02:45:24 <noagendamarket> an Arti FAQ ?
383 2010-12-15 02:45:30 <ArtForz> yup
384 2010-12-15 02:45:43 <Lysacor> who needs an extension cord, I got some 8 gauge copper waiting to whip up there! :P
385 2010-12-15 02:46:07 <noagendamarket> I have 3 phase power in my shed :)-
386 2010-12-15 02:46:08 <ArtForz> I have my own micro cogeneration plant (aka diesel gen replacing oil burner for central heating)
387 2010-12-15 02:46:57 <noagendamarket> is diesel generators efficient?
388 2010-12-15 02:47:05 <Lysacor> nice, helps to keep the grid usage lower, though is the diesel fuel producing a bit less expensive energy, compared to the grid at large?
389 2010-12-15 02:47:09 <ArtForz> if you use it to heat your house... yes
390 2010-12-15 02:47:15 <Lysacor> true
391 2010-12-15 02:47:26 <ArtForz> thats the whole idea about micro-cogen
392 2010-12-15 02:47:41 <ArtForz> instead of turning oil into heat, you turn oil into heat+power, and the power into heat, too
393 2010-12-15 02:47:46 <noagendamarket> move to antarctica and you could generate more
394 2010-12-15 02:47:50 <Lysacor> a lot more efficient
395 2010-12-15 02:47:54 <ArtForz> so you basically get free power out of the deal
396 2010-12-15 02:48:07 <ArtForz> well, except for the initial investment and higher maintenance of course
397 2010-12-15 02:48:18 <Lysacor> probably go from 20-30 percent efficiency into the 50-70 range?
398 2010-12-15 02:48:24 <midnightmagic> ArtForz: what's the power grid there cost per kWh?
399 2010-12-15 02:48:40 <ArtForz> about $0.30
400 2010-12-15 02:48:52 <Lysacor> yeowch
401 2010-12-15 02:48:56 <ArtForz> a modern central heating oil burner is >90% efficient, so is a micro-cogen
402 2010-12-15 02:49:08 <Lysacor> very nice!
403 2010-12-15 02:49:31 <ArtForz> of course only about 30% of the cogens output is electric
404 2010-12-15 02:49:34 <midnightmagic> holy crap. it's $0.0875 here for tier-2 power (so, more than X kWh per month, which a farm like yours would definitely put me into)
405 2010-12-15 02:49:43 <Lysacor> I wish I could 1. afford one and 2. install one in such a way that my landlord wouldn't evict me on the spot
406 2010-12-15 02:50:12 <midnightmagic> and that's CAD, too..
407 2010-12-15 02:50:16 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.2468,"low":0.21,"vol":10188,"buy":0.2152,"sell":0.2459,"last":0.2467}}
408 2010-12-15 02:50:16 <Lysacor> ;;bc,mtgox
409 2010-12-15 02:50:24 <ArtForz> benefits of owning your own house ;)
410 2010-12-15 02:50:38 <ArtForz> yep, canada has about the cheapest power in the world
411 2010-12-15 02:51:11 <Lysacor> average here where I live is $0.10
412 2010-12-15 02:51:23 <aximilation_> funny you mention that, my workplace just relocated some web servers to canada partly due to the power reasons
413 2010-12-15 02:52:18 <midnightmagic> monthly cost for one of your 1.3KW at-the-plug machines is ~$82/month..
414 2010-12-15 02:52:39 <midnightmagic> ArtForz: did you order the new machines because you want to stay ahead of the influx of GPU miners?
415 2010-12-15 02:52:53 <ArtForz> not really
416 2010-12-15 02:52:59 <midnightmagic> you're doing it for fun aren't you
417 2010-12-15 02:53:07 <ArtForz> yup, pretty much
418 2010-12-15 02:53:09 <kiba> for fun and profit!
419 2010-12-15 02:53:21 <ArtForz> well, is there a better reason? I like challenges :P
420 2010-12-15 02:53:35 <Lysacor> imagine if you could Crossfire all those things into one big array of cards... wow...
421 2010-12-15 02:53:41 <noagendamarket> lol
422 2010-12-15 02:53:48 <midnightmagic> No, no better reason. :)
423 2010-12-15 02:53:49 <noagendamarket> cloud server?
424 2010-12-15 02:54:10 <ArtForz> hrrrm, looks like theres another option
425 2010-12-15 02:54:37 <jb55> I have been trying to compile bitcoin on ec2 gpu cluster instances with no avail
426 2010-12-15 02:54:39 <jb55> damn centos
427 2010-12-15 02:54:49 <ArtForz> older FPGAs arent worth it, but xilinx spartan6 looks like it could be a winner for hash/W
428 2010-12-15 02:55:07 <Lysacor> jb55:wonder how quick they would boot you off of EC2 if you managed it?
429 2010-12-15 02:55:11 <ArtForz> still sucks for hash/$ though
430 2010-12-15 02:55:19 <midnightmagic> I would love to see a bunch of machines pay for themselves while I do R&D on distributed computing.. it would mean I could extend out my reach.. to.. well beyond what I thought would be within my reach as a hobbiest.
431 2010-12-15 02:55:48 <kiba> I make more money drawing than coding :(
432 2010-12-15 02:55:52 <ArtForz> so... copacobana with spartan6 anyone?
433 2010-12-15 02:55:54 <jb55> Lysacor: I dont see why they would, that's what they're for. number crunching.
434 2010-12-15 02:55:58 <kiba> nobody want to play with my wwww.soulplaying.com :(
435 2010-12-15 02:56:11 <kiba> errr wwww.soulplaying.com
436 2010-12-15 02:56:15 <kiba> err..damn
437 2010-12-15 02:56:20 <kiba> www.soulplaying.com
438 2010-12-15 02:56:34 <noagendamarket> kiba im too lazy for that lol
439 2010-12-15 02:57:01 <kiba> don't play an MMO, play a real life RPG!
440 2010-12-15 02:57:09 <kiba> play your very soul!
441 2010-12-15 02:57:29 <Lysacor> so I am not selling my soul for a couple of trinkets right? :P
442 2010-12-15 02:57:38 <Lysacor> not that I had one to begin with :P
443 2010-12-15 02:57:40 <kiba> no, you're playing as yourself
444 2010-12-15 02:57:42 <midnightmagic> well the virtex almost certainly aren't worth it.
445 2010-12-15 02:57:45 <kiba> in improving your life skill
446 2010-12-15 02:58:03 <kiba> it's only like 3 bucks a month...
447 2010-12-15 02:58:21 <ArtForz> 120 spartan6-sx45 should be able to get about 4.5Ghash/s using ~400W
448 2010-12-15 02:59:14 <ArtForz> beats 5970s by about a factor of 6 on hash/W
449 2010-12-15 02:59:19 <jb55> are there FPGA hobby kits? :D
450 2010-12-15 02:59:24 <ArtForz> yup
451 2010-12-15 02:59:28 <ArtForz> and horribly loses on hash/$
452 2010-12-15 02:59:36 <ArtForz> the chips alone are ~$6.5k
453 2010-12-15 02:59:37 <aximilation_> kiba do you run your own server there?
454 2010-12-15 03:00:09 <midnightmagic> you can get cheap spartan 6..!
455 2010-12-15 03:00:13 <ArtForz> add custom PCBs, PSU, custom case ... 9 grand
456 2010-12-15 03:00:19 <jb55> ouch
457 2010-12-15 03:00:49 <ArtForz> well, it's also about as fast as 8 5970s
458 2010-12-15 03:00:55 <Lysacor> whew... a bit too rich for me
459 2010-12-15 03:00:59 <kiba> run what server?
460 2010-12-15 03:01:07 <kiba> mining is just a side income
461 2010-12-15 03:01:16 <ArtForz> so roughly half the hash/$ of 5970s
462 2010-12-15 03:01:22 <ArtForz> but 5x better hash/W
463 2010-12-15 03:01:37 <aximilation_> soulplaying
464 2010-12-15 03:01:39 <kiba> does that mean you will sell 5970s for bitcoins?
465 2010-12-15 03:01:41 <ArtForz> but at least you dont need to order crazy amounts of em to get a decent price
466 2010-12-15 03:01:45 <kiba> aximilation_: no, I used heroku
467 2010-12-15 03:01:48 <midnightmagic> $14,280 for 120 spartan-6 XA6SLX75-2FGG484I from digikey. what part number are you looking at art?
468 2010-12-15 03:02:06 <aximilation_> ah, I was going to say you should really catch the www and direct it to the non-www
469 2010-12-15 03:02:20 <ArtForz> you're checking out the -75s
470 2010-12-15 03:02:33 <ArtForz> XC6SLX45-2CSG324C
471 2010-12-15 03:02:34 <kiba> don't you mean non-www to www?
472 2010-12-15 03:02:49 <ArtForz> digikey 122-1673-ND
473 2010-12-15 03:03:02 <aximilation_> yea, or that
474 2010-12-15 03:03:14 <Lysacor> thinking about the mtgox market... with all of those standing ASK orders for .32+ in 1000 coin blocks... that might potentially stunt the market
475 2010-12-15 03:03:50 <Lysacor> but, not knowing the historical market depth, it is an uneducated opinion at best
476 2010-12-15 03:03:52 <midnightmagic> that's half the onboard logic units.. but cheaper overall. you always seem to find the maximum economic wins. LOL how long have you been looking for fpga anyway? :)
477 2010-12-15 03:03:59 <ArtForz> not too long
478 2010-12-15 03:04:15 <ArtForz> but I was looking at FPGA to prototype my ASIC design in hardware
479 2010-12-15 03:04:44 <ArtForz> turns out my VHDL synthesizes to something with decent performance on virtex5 and spartan6
480 2010-12-15 03:04:45 <Lysacor> kiba: next paycheck if I am looking in a good position, I may try your site, couldn't hurt
481 2010-12-15 03:05:16 <midnightmagic> can I be your disciple?
482 2010-12-15 03:06:01 <Lysacor> Art, be careful, looks like you are inadvertantly starting your own religion here :P
483 2010-12-15 03:06:28 <EvanR> i just heard about bitcoin today. how long has this operation been going on?
484 2010-12-15 03:06:39 <kiba> operation? what operation?
485 2010-12-15 03:06:49 <EvanR> bitcoin
486 2010-12-15 03:06:57 <kiba> bitcoin is not an operation
487 2010-12-15 03:07:04 <midnightmagic> it's a religion!
488 2010-12-15 03:07:06 <EvanR> lol
489 2010-12-15 03:07:31 <EvanR> or is it dead, in the final stages and i just came in at the end
490 2010-12-15 03:07:33 <mndrix_> EvanR: first block was in Jan 2009, I think: http://blockexplorer.com/b/0
491 2010-12-15 03:07:34 <ArtForz> it's a movement!
492 2010-12-15 03:07:35 <Lysacor> From what I know, it has been going on for some time
493 2010-12-15 03:07:43 <Lysacor> nowhere near dead
494 2010-12-15 03:07:47 <Lysacor> very much growing
495 2010-12-15 03:07:50 <kiba> it's been growing
496 2010-12-15 03:07:56 <kiba> December is going to smash record!
497 2010-12-15 03:08:00 <midnightmagic> And not the kind that you flush!
498 2010-12-15 03:08:14 <kiba> oh wait, we already did
499 2010-12-15 03:08:20 <EvanR> i tried to invent this a few months ago
500 2010-12-15 03:08:23 <ArtForz> merely pining for the fjords *ducks*
501 2010-12-15 03:08:24 <kiba> but we will smash more record!
502 2010-12-15 03:08:28 <EvanR> when reading about digital signatures
503 2010-12-15 03:08:38 <EvanR> i didnt get anywhere
504 2010-12-15 03:08:47 <kiba> not suprising
505 2010-12-15 03:08:49 <EvanR> ive been looking for a place to store my money
506 2010-12-15 03:08:53 <EvanR> i dont trust banks
507 2010-12-15 03:08:59 <ArtForz> the real genius of bitcoin is the distributed timestamping system
508 2010-12-15 03:09:17 <kiba> oh yeah
509 2010-12-15 03:09:20 <midnightmagic> not really a great economy to store large volumes of cash in.. :)
510 2010-12-15 03:09:22 <kiba> Satoshi is really a girl
511 2010-12-15 03:09:41 <kiba> and her name is not Satoshi
512 2010-12-15 03:09:54 <midnightmagic> Shhh.. don't tell him all the secrets right away.
513 2010-12-15 03:09:58 <ArtForz> and using mining/transaction fees as an incentive to keep enough CPU power on it
514 2010-12-15 03:10:00 <jb55> EvanR: same, right now I have my wallet inside of a truecrypt volume sitting in my dropbox :D
515 2010-12-15 03:10:06 <EvanR> lol
516 2010-12-15 03:10:12 <midnightmagic> First he has to punch his fingers through the gravel for six months!
517 2010-12-15 03:10:39 <Lysacor> No, no, it is walk through glass covered in margarita salt...
518 2010-12-15 03:10:42 <EvanR> i looked at the server, looks like an iphone app waiting to happen
519 2010-12-15 03:10:42 <midnightmagic> Err.. I mean mine fruitlessly on his GPU for six months!
520 2010-12-15 03:10:46 <Lysacor> broken glass
521 2010-12-15 03:11:02 <kiba> what server, EvanR?
522 2010-12-15 03:11:06 <EvanR> bitcoind
523 2010-12-15 03:11:43 <Lysacor> possible, but I doubt the carriers would like 8333 traffic trickling into the network :P
524 2010-12-15 03:11:50 <midnightmagic> maybe as a controller via the JSON interface! that would be kind of neat. just make sure that other people with the app can move bitcoins to one another without manually typing in long strings of bitcoin addresses and you're good!
525 2010-12-15 03:11:58 <EvanR> Lysacor: it would be port 80
526 2010-12-15 03:12:09 <EvanR> er
527 2010-12-15 03:12:16 <EvanR> https whatever it is
528 2010-12-15 03:12:21 <Lysacor> 443
529 2010-12-15 03:12:40 <Lysacor> :)
530 2010-12-15 03:12:50 <EvanR> midnightmagic: nicknames to the rescue?
531 2010-12-15 03:12:56 <aximilation_> EvanR: I just set up bitcoind about half an hour or so ago myself
532 2010-12-15 03:13:09 <kiba> newbies.
533 2010-12-15 03:13:13 <EvanR> i was about to, but realized i didnt have a dedicated server
534 2010-12-15 03:13:19 <EvanR> and the server i was on wasnt really mine
535 2010-12-15 03:13:22 <EvanR> so i stopped
536 2010-12-15 03:13:26 <aximilation_> run it on a home computer :-D
537 2010-12-15 03:13:32 <EvanR> i actually dont have interne
538 2010-12-15 03:13:38 <EvanR> im stealing wireless
539 2010-12-15 03:13:45 <aximilation_> that works
540 2010-12-15 03:13:48 <kiba> I need to do something about backup and encrypting my wallet
541 2010-12-15 03:13:51 <kiba> really paranoid
542 2010-12-15 03:13:54 <EvanR> bitcoin still works
543 2010-12-15 03:14:00 <Lysacor> you are "borrowing", stealing indicates malicious intent :P
544 2010-12-15 03:14:04 <aximilation_> might be more difficult to forward 8333, but hey
545 2010-12-15 03:14:10 <Lysacor> borrowing without intent of return...
546 2010-12-15 03:14:16 <aximilation_> "using"
547 2010-12-15 03:14:18 <EvanR> stealing indicates ironic abuse of loaded words
548 2010-12-15 03:14:35 <EvanR> sharing!
549 2010-12-15 03:14:37 <aximilation_> neither borrowing nor stealing could apply, as there is no way you could give the internet back
550 2010-12-15 03:14:40 <Lysacor> nice!
551 2010-12-15 03:14:43 <ArtForz> how can you steal wireless?
552 2010-12-15 03:14:59 <kiba> ArtForz: you torrent through it
553 2010-12-15 03:15:07 <kiba> depriving the owner of his bandwidth!
554 2010-12-15 03:15:18 <ArtForz> aka "hey, I didn't ask for my neighbor to broadcast his radio waves all over my place"
555 2010-12-15 03:15:23 <Lysacor> yeah, saturate the pipe... that is where QoS comes in handy :P
556 2010-12-15 03:15:25 <aximilation_> it's really not much different than "stealing" music from an open air concert by listening from outside the grounds
557 2010-12-15 03:15:29 <Lysacor> true
558 2010-12-15 03:15:32 <EvanR> so am i reading this dashboard correctly, 'we are on block 93691' ?
559 2010-12-15 03:15:40 <ArtForz> ;;bc,blocks
560 2010-12-15 03:15:41 <gribble> 97613
561 2010-12-15 03:15:49 <EvanR> i am out of date?
562 2010-12-15 03:15:51 <Lysacor> actually, you are a few blocks behind, a bit more to download
563 2010-12-15 03:15:53 <EvanR> or this isnt a global number
564 2010-12-15 03:15:59 <ArtForz> no, it's a global number
565 2010-12-15 03:16:03 <Lysacor> nope, globally it is 97613
566 2010-12-15 03:16:18 <Lysacor> every client shares the same block chain database
567 2010-12-15 03:16:19 <kiba> grow, bitcoin, grow!
568 2010-12-15 03:16:20 <EvanR> is 100000 a special milestone or something?
569 2010-12-15 03:16:22 <Lysacor> it is shared between clients
570 2010-12-15 03:16:28 <kiba> no
571 2010-12-15 03:16:31 <ArtForz> if you don't want people "stealing" your WiFi, turn on encryption or get a lot of tin foil.
572 2010-12-15 03:16:31 <EvanR> ok
573 2010-12-15 03:16:44 <aximilation_> "Unauthorized Use"
574 2010-12-15 03:16:48 <Lysacor> tinfoil hats!!
575 2010-12-15 03:17:04 <ArtForz> well, *someone* set it up as a free-for-all
576 2010-12-15 03:17:06 <EvanR> also ironic, the guys password is "money money"
577 2010-12-15 03:17:16 <ArtForz> lol
578 2010-12-15 03:17:23 <aximilation_> password for what?
579 2010-12-15 03:17:26 <EvanR> wireless
580 2010-12-15 03:17:38 <aximilation_> how'd you come across the password?
581 2010-12-15 03:17:49 <EvanR> not hard to guess
582 2010-12-15 03:17:52 <aximilation_> lol
583 2010-12-15 03:17:58 <kiba> he love money?
584 2010-12-15 03:18:12 <ArtForz> btw, huge fuckup of a german ISP, their router/APs have WPA2 turned on by default, turns out the default WPA2 key contains a whopping 24 bits of entropy
585 2010-12-15 03:18:28 <aximilation_> in that case you're in a slightly "risier" position as it's not completely open to the public
586 2010-12-15 03:18:28 <EvanR> he told me the password
587 2010-12-15 03:18:42 <aximilation_> oh
588 2010-12-15 03:18:44 <ArtForz> well, then its not stealing now, is it?
589 2010-12-15 03:18:49 <aximilation_> nvm then, telling is permission then
590 2010-12-15 03:18:50 <EvanR> never was
591 2010-12-15 03:18:54 <aximilation_> or close enough
592 2010-12-15 03:19:10 <Lysacor> backtrack is a wonderful tool...
593 2010-12-15 03:19:15 <EvanR> it says 1khash/s
594 2010-12-15 03:19:18 <aximilation_> you know this whole discussion started because you said you were stealing wireless...
595 2010-12-15 03:19:30 <Lysacor> great for wifi key discovery and breaking
596 2010-12-15 03:19:34 <ArtForz> btw, 24dBi parabolics are fun
597 2010-12-15 03:19:48 <Lysacor> and attacking other people's AP's
598 2010-12-15 03:20:10 <Lysacor> what range you manage to get on it Art?
599 2010-12-15 03:20:34 <ArtForz> we got about 5 miles out of it with direct LOS
600 2010-12-15 03:20:34 <EvanR> aximilation_: not my fault
601 2010-12-15 03:20:42 <EvanR> i think i got all the blocks
602 2010-12-15 03:20:47 <Lysacor> very nice!
603 2010-12-15 03:20:50 <EvanR> 97614
604 2010-12-15 03:21:07 <Lysacor> yep, you are caught up now EvanR
605 2010-12-15 03:21:09 <EvanR> 474 khash/s
606 2010-12-15 03:21:19 <ArtForz> and the transmitters turned down to lowest output
607 2010-12-15 03:21:27 <ArtForz> stupid ETSI EIRP rules
608 2010-12-15 03:21:54 <EvanR> its the code of the radio operator, use lowest power necessary to carry out communication ;)
609 2010-12-15 03:22:32 <Lysacor> true, but ETSI... FCC... they all over-regulate the spectrum to some degree...
610 2010-12-15 03:22:35 <EvanR> ignore numbers stations and best of hip hop and r&b FM stations
611 2010-12-15 03:22:40 <ArtForz> yeah, but seriously, 1W EIRP?
612 2010-12-15 03:23:29 <Lysacor> imagine if you could go 50 percent higher, what the results would be
613 2010-12-15 03:23:35 <EvanR> what is this generate coins this, does it randomly give you 1 coin? or some other amount? how often?
614 2010-12-15 03:23:40 <Lysacor> without risk of fines...
615 2010-12-15 03:23:42 <EvanR> this->thing
616 2010-12-15 03:23:47 <ArtForz> 50 percent? why not an order of magnitude
617 2010-12-15 03:23:53 <Lysacor> mmmm true
618 2010-12-15 03:24:05 <EvanR> 10W is insane
619 2010-12-15 03:24:09 <ArtForz> 10W EIRP on a 23dBi isn't exactly a lot of output
620 2010-12-15 03:24:48 <ArtForz> take line and connector losses into account and you're looking at 100mW tx output
621 2010-12-15 03:24:55 <Lysacor> so, bitcoin generates coins when you solve a given hash of a block, as time goes on the number of coins earned by solving blocks are less and less, (bitcoin.org details it all)
622 2010-12-15 03:25:15 <Lysacor> as the number of blocks in the collective block chain increases
623 2010-12-15 03:25:16 <ArtForz> yep, first halving should be late 2012/early 2013
624 2010-12-15 03:25:28 <Lysacor> right now you get 50 per solved block
625 2010-12-15 03:25:35 <EvanR> oh
626 2010-12-15 03:25:56 <Lysacor> BUT, you can join a pooled mining effort
627 2010-12-15 03:26:14 <Lysacor> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2027.0
628 2010-12-15 03:26:17 <EvanR> all nodes are solving simultaneously, and whoever gets there first gets the cash?
629 2010-12-15 03:26:23 <EvanR> then you start over?
630 2010-12-15 03:26:25 <Lysacor> yep
631 2010-12-15 03:26:46 <EvanR> cant they solve in parallel? or would that be defeating the purpose somehow
632 2010-12-15 03:27:34 <Lysacor> the pooled mining effort combines the hashing power of multiple systems, to increase the likelihood of the group solving the block. As that one is setup, you get a number of coins (and they can be in decimal values) based on the amount of hash work contributed to the pool
633 2010-12-15 03:27:55 <Lysacor> the more you do compared to the rest, the larger your share of the block solved
634 2010-12-15 03:28:05 <Lysacor> the pooled mining effort has solved two blocks thus far
635 2010-12-15 03:28:09 <MT`AwAy> and your bitcoin client will throw away as soon as it can any sub-cent coin you've earned
636 2010-12-15 03:28:15 <EvanR> thats a question i was having, so 0.30 is a valid number of coins?
637 2010-12-15 03:28:17 <Lysacor> exactly
638 2010-12-15 03:28:24 <Lysacor> it certainly is
639 2010-12-15 03:28:38 <Lysacor> there are other ways to get bitcoins
640 2010-12-15 03:28:46 <EvanR> i think its also valid in json, but in a javascript engine it wont be represented as that
641 2010-12-15 03:28:52 <Lysacor> namely through trade, through a site like bitfaucet
642 2010-12-15 03:28:53 <doublec> MT`AwAy, the bitcoin client doesn't throw away sub-cent coins
643 2010-12-15 03:28:55 <Lysacor> etc... etc...
644 2010-12-15 03:29:04 <ArtForz> doublec: it does
645 2010-12-15 03:29:06 <MT`AwAy> doublec: it sure does, sends them as "fee"
646 2010-12-15 03:29:30 <aximilation_> I got some from bitfaucet :-D
647 2010-12-15 03:29:50 <doublec> So if I have 0.001 sitting in my account it will vanish without me doing anything?
648 2010-12-15 03:30:07 <MT`AwAy> doublec: if you send coins to someone, the 0.001 part will be added to "in" automatically, but not to "out"
649 2010-12-15 03:30:30 <doublec> why does it do that?
650 2010-12-15 03:30:34 <MT`AwAy> so anyone who takes your transaction in and solves the block will get your 0.001
651 2010-12-15 03:30:51 <EvanR> lol free bitcoins
652 2010-12-15 03:30:52 <MT`AwAy> doublec: ask Satoshi, but I think it may have to do with the inital sub-cent transaction floods?
653 2010-12-15 03:31:18 <doublec> so as long as I never send anything in my wallet then the subcent generated transactions can add up?
654 2010-12-15 03:31:26 <MT`AwAy> doublec: yep
655 2010-12-15 03:31:31 <Lysacor> www.mtgox.com is one of a few bitcoin investment sites
656 2010-12-15 03:31:32 <doublec> That's more of an argument that puddinpop should change the server to round to 0.01
657 2010-12-15 03:31:33 <ArtForz> well, if your tx had a sub-cent output, it'd cost 0.01 in f ees
658 2010-12-15 03:31:34 <MT`AwAy> and once you reach a cent, it'll stay
659 2010-12-15 03:31:49 <ArtForz> whats better? paying < 0.01 or paying 0.01 ?
660 2010-12-15 03:32:26 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz: he can just keep accumulating sub cents until it gets to 0.01
661 2010-12-15 03:32:33 <EvanR> sub cent makes sense
662 2010-12-15 03:32:43 <MT`AwAy> or until someone modifies the client to not throw away subcents
663 2010-12-15 03:32:48 <ArtForz> well, if your client uses it as a input, it has reason to
664 2010-12-15 03:32:58 <EvanR> how hard is it to make your own client?
665 2010-12-15 03:33:09 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: I'm doing it, and it's not that simple
666 2010-12-15 03:33:13 <ArtForz> if you have 0.075 and send 0.05 you keep the 0.025
667 2010-12-15 03:33:24 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz: actually, you don't
668 2010-12-15 03:33:40 <MT`AwAy> if you have 0.075 and send 0.05, you'll keep 0.02
669 2010-12-15 03:33:52 <ArtForz> err, the throw-away-subcent code only kicks in if a output is < 0.01
670 2010-12-15 03:33:53 <EvanR> i got 0.05 coins!
671 2010-12-15 03:33:53 <nanotube> looks like there's need for a patch to undo the throwing away of subcent bitcoins...
672 2010-12-15 03:33:54 <MT`AwAy> and 0.005 are added as "fee" to the transaction
673 2010-12-15 03:34:01 <aximilation_> is this the gui client, or does it apply to bitcoind as well?
674 2010-12-15 03:34:35 <aximilation_> since my balance shows 0.05000000
675 2010-12-15 03:35:11 <Lysacor> brb gonna put my computer on a kill-a-watt meter and see what the damage to my electric bill is gonna be...
676 2010-12-15 03:35:56 <EvanR> i got coins from 'someone' it says unconfirmed. im 'pretty sure' its bitfaucet. how do i tell the client to identify that address as that?
677 2010-12-15 03:36:08 <MT`AwAy> found one
678 2010-12-15 03:36:14 <MT`AwAy> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/19daf081d3139e8fa11a2ae6467098312f1e86fe3a9e9e8b81a26e68b0f4f145 <- 50 btc sent, the input also includes subcents
679 2010-12-15 03:36:16 <EvanR> oh thats not what unconfirmed means
680 2010-12-15 03:36:29 <ArtForz> yes
681 2010-12-15 03:36:31 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: you need to wait, the transaction will get confirmed
682 2010-12-15 03:36:37 <ArtForz> and the 2nd output would'Ve been < 0.01
683 2010-12-15 03:37:19 <MT`AwAy> the bitcoin client could have just kept the sub-cent part on the initial wallet
684 2010-12-15 03:37:20 <ArtForz> if he had sent 45, he'd have gotten 5.0049... in change back
685 2010-12-15 03:37:27 <MT`AwAy> since it doesn't systematically empty addresses
686 2010-12-15 03:38:03 <ArtForz> no it couldnt have
687 2010-12-15 03:38:21 <ArtForz> that was from a 50.0049... generation
688 2010-12-15 03:38:37 <ArtForz> if it only has that 1 tx, and you want to send 50, whats it suppsoed to do?
689 2010-12-15 03:38:57 <ArtForz> a) send 50, send 0.0049 back to yourself, needs a 0.01 fee
690 2010-12-15 03:39:00 <MT`AwAy> just send 50.00000000, and let the 0.0049... part on the address
691 2010-12-15 03:39:06 <ArtForz> b) send 50, throw away the 0.0049 as fee
692 2010-12-15 03:39:09 <MT`AwAy> s/let/keep/
693 2010-12-15 03:39:15 <ArtForz> it's a SINGLE TRANSACTION
694 2010-12-15 03:39:25 <ArtForz> you can't KEEP part of an output
695 2010-12-15 03:39:33 <ArtForz> you have to use the whole output
696 2010-12-15 03:39:34 <MT`AwAy> you can keep part of the input on the address
697 2010-12-15 03:39:40 <MT`AwAy> nothing requires the "in" address to be emptied each time
698 2010-12-15 03:39:46 <EvanR> what does 'throw away' mean, lost to oblivion? or sender keeps it
699 2010-12-15 03:39:50 <ArtForz> ARGH
700 2010-12-15 03:39:54 <ArtForz> the input was this: http://blockexplorer.com/tx/7ff761d4749f64c41d1ba7018841b863a0f1b56fe1d62a8369ed452216c421ab#o0
701 2010-12-15 03:39:54 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: whoever solves the block gets it
702 2010-12-15 03:40:06 <ArtForz> SINGLE OUTPUT, 50.0049...
703 2010-12-15 03:40:13 <ArtForz> user requests a send of 50 to some address
704 2010-12-15 03:40:13 <EvanR> thats strange
705 2010-12-15 03:40:25 <ArtForz> so whats his client supposed to do then?
706 2010-12-15 03:40:42 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz: what I say is to /not/ inclue the 0.0049.. part in the input
707 2010-12-15 03:40:47 <MT`AwAy> include*
708 2010-12-15 03:40:48 <ArtForz> you can't do that
709 2010-12-15 03:40:51 <MT`AwAy> you can
710 2010-12-15 03:41:00 <ArtForz> no you can't
711 2010-12-15 03:41:09 <ArtForz> once a output is used, it's marked as spent
712 2010-12-15 03:41:15 <ArtForz> read the fine code
713 2010-12-15 03:41:41 <nanotube> ArtForz: so if even one of the outputs of a single tx is <0.01, the whole tx requires a fee?
714 2010-12-15 03:41:51 <ArtForz> yep
715 2010-12-15 03:41:52 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz: I'm talking about the input
716 2010-12-15 03:42:05 <MT`AwAy> if you got 500 bitcoins on address X, you can either put the whole thing as input, or only a part
717 2010-12-15 03:42:11 <EvanR> bitfaucet is funny. TANSTAAFL was almost violated. until i realized you cant get lunch on 0.05 coins
718 2010-12-15 03:42:11 <nanotube> ArtForz: i guess in that case it's fine. since it doesn't make sense to spend .01 in order to save <0.1
719 2010-12-15 03:42:13 <MT`AwAy> the remaining balance stays on X
720 2010-12-15 03:42:14 <nanotube> <.01 i mean
721 2010-12-15 03:42:25 <nanotube> EvanR: haha yea
722 2010-12-15 03:42:26 <ArtForz> the INPUT to the 50+0.0049fee TX was a SINGLE 50.0049 OUTPUT
723 2010-12-15 03:42:54 <MT`AwAy> oops
724 2010-12-15 03:43:39 <ArtForz> if you have multiple outputs to the same pubkey available, you can obviously use only one of them
725 2010-12-15 03:43:40 <MT`AwAy> forgot input reference tx
726 2010-12-15 03:43:48 <EvanR> how long does it take to confirm?
727 2010-12-15 03:43:56 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: ~1 hour
728 2010-12-15 03:43:59 <EvanR> >_<
729 2010-12-15 03:44:07 <ArtForz> one or more I mean
730 2010-12-15 03:44:08 <EvanR> it says 3/unconfirmed now
731 2010-12-15 03:44:08 <MT`AwAy> but you can use your coins with only one confirmation
732 2010-12-15 03:44:15 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: you can already use the coins then
733 2010-12-15 03:44:23 <EvanR> what does the number mean
734 2010-12-15 03:44:35 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: it's the number of blocks after your transaction
735 2010-12-15 03:44:51 <ArtForz> and iirc the current client code only throws away < 0.01 amounts if it'd otherwise have to send them back to itself as change, incurring the 0.01 fee
736 2010-12-15 03:44:54 <MT`AwAy> the more blocks there are, the more you know the transaction is legit
737 2010-12-15 03:45:29 <ArtForz> so you can have a tx of 50.0049 -> 45 + 5.0049 change
738 2010-12-15 03:45:38 <EvanR> is there an arbitrary threshold where it 'gives up' and says confirmed
739 2010-12-15 03:45:44 <ArtForz> I dont think it's smart enough to combine multiple sub-cent containign inputs to make a whole cent
740 2010-12-15 03:45:54 <aximilation_> anyone work with the market like mtgox?
741 2010-12-15 03:46:02 <aximilation_> or use it to buy/sell?
742 2010-12-15 03:46:22 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz: I guess it's still better to keep subcent until bitcoin becomes smart enough :)
743 2010-12-15 03:46:31 <ArtForz> so if you have 50.006 and 50.005 and send 50, it uses one of them and throws away the 0.005 or 6
744 2010-12-15 03:46:35 <aximilation_> or do you do most of your saving my mining?
745 2010-12-15 03:46:43 <EvanR> what happens if you 'open' your wallet on multiple computers at once
746 2010-12-15 03:46:50 <aximilation_> s/my/by
747 2010-12-15 03:46:57 <ArtForz> instead of doing (50.005 + 50.006) -> 50 + 50.011 change
748 2010-12-15 03:46:57 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: you see your balance multiple times, but can use it only once
749 2010-12-15 03:47:04 <EvanR> then what
750 2010-12-15 03:47:15 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: then you can't send more coins
751 2010-12-15 03:47:22 <EvanR> on either?
752 2010-12-15 03:47:22 <MT`AwAy> because in reality you don't have more
753 2010-12-15 03:48:19 <EvanR> will it segfault, signal alert ERROR, or explain thoroughly the problem ;)
754 2010-12-15 03:48:52 <MT`AwAy> I think the transaction will just disappear or never get confirmed, I'm not sure (didn't look into that yet)
755 2010-12-15 03:49:04 <MT`AwAy> one thing sure is the fact the network will not accept that
756 2010-12-15 03:49:28 <ArtForz> the balance on the other nodes shoudl disappear when they see the tx in a block
757 2010-12-15 03:49:40 <ArtForz> if they try to send a tx before, network will just drop it as a double.-spend
758 2010-12-15 03:49:40 <EvanR> really? thats cool
759 2010-12-15 03:50:06 <annodomini> So I've solved my first block. Now what to spend my ?50 on?
760 2010-12-15 03:50:23 <Lysacor> ok, so my wallet won't be burning, very nice! there are plenty of places to go :P
761 2010-12-15 03:50:27 <EvanR> when i got the bitfauct coins, it changed my address. im confused
762 2010-12-15 03:50:43 <MT`AwAy> annodomini: you can send sms on https://smsz.net/ for example :D
763 2010-12-15 03:50:46 <EvanR> now i have two receiving addresses
764 2010-12-15 03:50:52 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: you can have as many addresses as you want
765 2010-12-15 03:51:01 <Lysacor> your address book allows you to create new addresses, and your address book let's you choose what address you want to receive on
766 2010-12-15 03:51:03 <EvanR> are they all for one balance?
767 2010-12-15 03:51:05 <Lysacor> it allows you to be anonymous
768 2010-12-15 03:51:06 <MT`AwAy> annodomini: you can also donate for the EFF
769 2010-12-15 03:51:09 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: yes
770 2010-12-15 03:51:13 <EvanR> ok
771 2010-12-15 03:51:23 <EvanR> but i can also reuse addresses
772 2010-12-15 03:51:26 <nanotube> ArtForz: well, sounds relatively reasonable.
773 2010-12-15 03:51:34 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: yes, but not reusing addresses is better
774 2010-12-15 03:51:42 <EvanR> why?
775 2010-12-15 03:51:46 <annodomini> MT`AwAy: True. Just donated to them in $ a couple days ago, and might again tonight via the Humble Indie Bundle.
776 2010-12-15 03:51:49 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: it protects your privacy
777 2010-12-15 03:51:58 <EvanR> hmm.
778 2010-12-15 03:52:04 <EvanR> yes
779 2010-12-15 03:52:05 <EvanR> but
780 2010-12-15 03:52:16 <MT`AwAy> and whoever's giving bitcoins to you's privacy too
781 2010-12-15 03:52:19 <nanotube> EvanR: there's a thread on the forum about 'pros and cons of reusing addresses'. read it.
782 2010-12-15 03:52:25 <EvanR> ok
783 2010-12-15 03:52:53 <MT`AwAy> also you can create addresses specifically for something (for example on my site, each order gets its own bitcoin address so when people pay, I know which order they paid for)
784 2010-12-15 03:53:38 <EvanR> seems like id lose track without labels
785 2010-12-15 03:54:01 <EvanR> i guess i could name each one as they are used
786 2010-12-15 03:55:24 <MT`AwAy> I guess when you generate coins you end using one address per generated block too
787 2010-12-15 03:55:43 <EvanR> when address?
788 2010-12-15 03:55:48 <EvanR> erm
789 2010-12-15 03:55:50 <EvanR> which address
790 2010-12-15 03:56:08 <EvanR> the one in the box?
791 2010-12-15 03:56:37 <ArtForz> extra credit for anyone who got the Titan AE reference
792 2010-12-15 03:57:42 <nanotube> not me... no extra credit for nanotube :(
793 2010-12-15 03:58:01 <EvanR> is there a mastercard/paypal blessed website where people can send or donate money to someones bitcoin ?
794 2010-12-15 03:58:06 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: yes, every block gen has an address in it, which by default is a new unused address. (though it doesn't have to be)
795 2010-12-15 03:58:32 <nanotube> EvanR: what does mastercard have to do with donating bitcoins?
796 2010-12-15 03:58:44 <EvanR> most people dont have bitcoins to send or donate
797 2010-12-15 03:59:07 <EvanR> they have usd or euros or something
798 2010-12-15 03:59:19 <noagendamarket> bitcoingateway for credit cards
799 2010-12-15 03:59:34 <nanotube> EvanR: --^ bitcoingateway.com you can use cc to buy btc
800 2010-12-15 03:59:56 <nanotube> EvanR: or you can deposit to mtgox.com via bank wire....
801 2010-12-15 04:00:09 <nanotube> or you can trade for paypal and other various and sundry things on #bitcoin-otc
802 2010-12-15 04:00:26 <EvanR> otc sounds more like it
803 2010-12-15 04:00:31 <EvanR> hmm
804 2010-12-15 04:01:02 <nanotube> well, join the channel, and have fun. :)
805 2010-12-15 04:01:04 <EvanR> so someone paying with bitcoins must first set it up and exchange for it first
806 2010-12-15 04:01:05 <MT`AwAy> oh, btc is at 0.247 on mtgox :o
807 2010-12-15 04:01:07 <EvanR> first
808 2010-12-15 04:01:14 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.2468,"low":0.21,"vol":10149,"buy":0.2152,"sell":0.2459,"last":0.2467}}
809 2010-12-15 04:01:14 <nanotube> ;;bc,mtgox
810 2010-12-15 04:01:24 <EvanR> what is "vol" ?
811 2010-12-15 04:01:24 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: yea looks like someone bought some.
812 2010-12-15 04:01:27 <nanotube> volume
813 2010-12-15 04:01:32 <EvanR> whats volume
814 2010-12-15 04:01:33 <nanotube> last 24 hours
815 2010-12-15 04:01:41 <nanotube> how many bitcoins were exchanged on mtgox
816 2010-12-15 04:01:44 <EvanR> ah
817 2010-12-15 04:01:50 <EvanR> not even google could explain that
818 2010-12-15 04:01:56 <EvanR> too simple
819 2010-12-15 04:02:24 <nanotube> heh... well it could be either volume or volatility
820 2010-12-15 04:02:29 <nanotube> and the number is way too large to be volatility
821 2010-12-15 04:02:33 <nanotube> so it must be volume. :)
822 2010-12-15 04:02:45 <nanotube> so you /could/ have guessed. :P
823 2010-12-15 04:02:49 <MT`AwAy> only people used to markets will know what a normal volatility is
824 2010-12-15 04:03:10 <MT`AwAy> :p
825 2010-12-15 04:03:18 <EvanR> heres whats funny, digital data in principle can be copied exactly and be reproduced indefinitely right? yet storing money on a hard drive seems orders of magnitude more risky :S
826 2010-12-15 04:03:18 <nanotube> well... or people who know what a standard deviation for numbers in the range of .22 looks like :P
827 2010-12-15 04:03:37 <nanotube> EvanR: how so? just make backups.
828 2010-12-15 04:03:44 <MT`AwAy> so volatility is stddev
829 2010-12-15 04:03:51 <nanotube> EvanR: after all... your bank stores money on their hard drives. :)
830 2010-12-15 04:03:54 <EvanR> you dont make backups of your wallet?
831 2010-12-15 04:04:17 <noagendamarket> the fed prints money wsith a button
832 2010-12-15 04:04:20 <noagendamarket> lol
833 2010-12-15 04:04:24 <EvanR> no!!!
834 2010-12-15 04:04:28 <nanotube> EvanR: i mean, when you store money on the hd, you make backups, so you don't lose it if your hd goes boom.
835 2010-12-15 04:04:33 <nanotube> noagendamarket: haha
836 2010-12-15 04:05:22 <EvanR> yes
837 2010-12-15 04:05:45 <nanotube> EvanR: it is in fact a very smart move. as long as you encrypt your wallet first. :)
838 2010-12-15 04:06:10 <EvanR> ah
839 2010-12-15 04:06:14 <noagendamarket> you can email it to me and Ill store it for you lol
840 2010-12-15 04:06:26 <noagendamarket> :)-
841 2010-12-15 04:06:30 <EvanR> ok!
842 2010-12-15 04:06:33 <MT`AwAy> xD
843 2010-12-15 04:06:59 <EvanR> exchange rate around 0.250, does that mean a bitcoin is about a quarter USD or the other way around
844 2010-12-15 04:07:25 <MT`AwAy> 1 BTC ~= 0.25 USD
845 2010-12-15 04:07:28 <MT`AwAy> right now
846 2010-12-15 04:07:44 <MT`AwAy> tommorow might be 1 BTC = 0.01 USD, you can't tell :p
847 2010-12-15 04:07:50 <EvanR> haha
848 2010-12-15 04:08:04 <EvanR> you can tell that from a volume of 10000 ?
849 2010-12-15 04:08:21 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: there are too many unknowns
850 2010-12-15 04:08:39 <EvanR> sounds like room for speculation!
851 2010-12-15 04:08:44 <MT`AwAy> if someone finds a problem in bitcoin and proves that the whole concept doesn't hold, btc will suddently have no value at all
852 2010-12-15 04:09:20 <nanotube> or, if someone with deep pockets decides to diversify into bitcoins and puts like 20k usd in... it may be 50c/btc tomorrow.
853 2010-12-15 04:09:48 <EvanR> is it possible to buy that many bitcoins?
854 2010-12-15 04:10:04 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: probably going to take a bit of time
855 2010-12-15 04:10:07 <nanotube> EvanR: yes... see the outstanding orders on mtgox
856 2010-12-15 04:10:26 <EvanR> ill have to checkout thissite out extensively
857 2010-12-15 04:10:44 <nanotube> EvanR: go to bitcoincharts.com - it has a nice display of the open order book
858 2010-12-15 04:10:56 <nanotube> if you're willing to pay up to 50c per btc, you can buy >70 thousand btc.
859 2010-12-15 04:11:10 <nanotube> (and that's not counting the dark pool orders)
860 2010-12-15 04:11:57 <EvanR> but theres only like 1 million total right now?
861 2010-12-15 04:12:13 <EvanR> youd own a tenth of them ;)
862 2010-12-15 04:12:53 <EvanR> should i be buying low? xD
863 2010-12-15 04:12:56 <ArtForz> more like 5M total
864 2010-12-15 04:13:34 <noagendamarket> someone is selling a house for btc
865 2010-12-15 04:13:39 <annodomini> 4.88 M according to http://www.bitcoinwatch.com/
866 2010-12-15 04:13:56 <EvanR> damn theres a lot of bitcoin*.foos
867 2010-12-15 04:14:32 <kiba> look like the price for bitcoin is finally going up
868 2010-12-15 04:14:56 <annodomini> It seems like the thing to do these days; take internet business idea, add "bitcoin" to the beginning ... profit!
869 2010-12-15 04:15:16 <EvanR> annodomini: and thats why the price is going up
870 2010-12-15 04:15:22 <sgornick> ArtForz: I think EvanR was referring to $1 million (US) now.
871 2010-12-15 04:15:32 <kiba> 1.2 million dollars
872 2010-12-15 04:15:45 <EvanR> today was a special day, i think bitcoin somehow got publicity or something
873 2010-12-15 04:15:53 <kiba> not a special day
874 2010-12-15 04:15:58 <kiba> but a special month
875 2010-12-15 04:16:06 <ArtForz> oh
876 2010-12-15 04:16:10 <kiba> we got on Wikipedia, EFF promoted us, We got Wikileak and bitcoin linked
877 2010-12-15 04:16:51 <EvanR> that would suggest independent parties decided 'the concept' was pretty good
878 2010-12-15 04:17:15 <kiba> we're moving out of the ignorance stage
879 2010-12-15 04:17:19 <sgornick> EvanR: But lets say you were one of those learned about it because of Wikipedia, Wikileak, EFF, PC World, etc. .... how would you, three or four days later, come into having Bitcoin in your wallet?
880 2010-12-15 04:17:20 <kiba> to violent opposition
881 2010-12-15 04:17:25 <kiba> once we complete violent opposite
882 2010-12-15 04:17:28 <kiba> then it's acceptance
883 2010-12-15 04:17:33 <EvanR> sgornick: too late i already do!
884 2010-12-15 04:17:36 <EvanR> 0.05 ;)
885 2010-12-15 04:17:45 <sgornick> (s) plural
886 2010-12-15 04:17:53 <EvanR> i guess continue to generate blocks
887 2010-12-15 04:18:03 <EvanR> or become inspired and start a .com
888 2010-12-15 04:18:03 <sgornick> Got GPUs?
889 2010-12-15 04:18:35 <Diablo-D3> http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/15/amd-radeon-hd-6970-and-hd-6950-launch-assault-on-enthusiast-gami/
890 2010-12-15 04:18:38 <Diablo-D3> official reviews are out
891 2010-12-15 04:19:29 <ArtForz> SHINY!
892 2010-12-15 04:20:04 <Diablo-D3> http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/12/14/amd_radeon_hd_6970_6950_video_card_review/8
893 2010-12-15 04:20:17 <Diablo-D3> fuckers need to learn to do math
894 2010-12-15 04:20:19 <ArtForz> 1536SP @ 880MHz, useless for mining
895 2010-12-15 04:20:21 <EvanR> how does a market work, i never understood it. we set our own prices?
896 2010-12-15 04:20:24 <Diablo-D3> if they know the total system wattage is 190, SUBTRACT IT
897 2010-12-15 04:20:44 <nanotube> sgornick: you buy some on -otc or mtgox or bitcoingateway
898 2010-12-15 04:20:55 <Diablo-D3> 6970 uses 238 watts max
899 2010-12-15 04:21:12 <Diablo-D3> slightly more than the 5870
900 2010-12-15 04:21:16 <ArtForz> 6970 needs more power than 5870, barely faster than a 5850
901 2010-12-15 04:21:20 <nanotube> EvanR: same way any market works. there's a range of buy orders, and a range of sell orders... when they come together, trading occurs.
902 2010-12-15 04:21:26 <Diablo-D3> but apparently rapes it on 3D
903 2010-12-15 04:21:37 <Diablo-D3> LOL 12 idle watts
904 2010-12-15 04:21:37 <EvanR> nanotube: occurs?
905 2010-12-15 04:21:38 <Diablo-D3> jesus
906 2010-12-15 04:21:43 <ArtForz> still FAIL for mining
907 2010-12-15 04:21:48 <EvanR> nanotube: what i dont understand is who is deciding what
908 2010-12-15 04:22:01 <ArtForz> and seems to run hot as hell
909 2010-12-15 04:22:01 <Diablo-D3> yuck, full load reaches 89c
910 2010-12-15 04:22:30 <nanotube> EvanR: simple case: say i want to buy 100 bitcoins, and i'm willing to pay .20 usd/btc. someone else is looking to sell, and is willing to sell at .25/btc
911 2010-12-15 04:22:39 <nanotube> EvanR: if there's nothing else happening, then no trading occurs.
912 2010-12-15 04:22:43 <ArtForz> I bet the fan never goes >60% on auto
913 2010-12-15 04:23:03 <EvanR> nanotube: ok, then what?
914 2010-12-15 04:23:07 <nanotube> EvanR: now, some other guy comes in, and he really wantsn some btc... so he's willing to buy at .25. so he comes in and snaps up some of the seller's coins at .25/btc
915 2010-12-15 04:23:36 <nanotube> EvanR: and voila, a trade has occurred. it's just like when you go to a farmer's market and want to buy some tomatoes. there are guys selling... at various price points...
916 2010-12-15 04:23:46 <ArtForz> wait a sec
917 2010-12-15 04:23:50 <ArtForz> the slide changed
918 2010-12-15 04:23:58 <EvanR> so its like ham radio, people have to agree on a frequency or they cant hear each other
919 2010-12-15 04:23:59 <ArtForz> we got 4 32-bit adds per clock again
920 2010-12-15 04:24:07 <nanotube> EvanR: you go around, and if you really want your tomatoes, you buy from one of the vendors. if you think they're all to expensive, you haggle until you agree on a price, or walk away.
921 2010-12-15 04:24:11 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: so we're back in business?
922 2010-12-15 04:24:27 <sgornick> > #-otc? Assuming the person has registered their nickname weeks ago, which is the prerequisite to place an order.
923 2010-12-15 04:24:29 <ArtForz> kinda
924 2010-12-15 04:24:44 <ArtForz> should get 5970 about == 5870 for mining
925 2010-12-15 04:24:53 <Diablo-D3> you mean 6970
926 2010-12-15 04:24:56 <ArtForz> yea
927 2010-12-15 04:24:58 <ArtForz> 6970
928 2010-12-15 04:25:03 <nanotube> sgornick: well, to place it officially on the book, yes. but you can also just shout out to channel. willing sellers may verify your identity, and sell to you (possibly at a bit of a risk premium)
929 2010-12-15 04:25:22 <EvanR> nanotube: so there might be several 'prices' where trades are occuring, and if the people paying higher know about all of them, they will all go to the lowest?
930 2010-12-15 04:25:28 <ArtForz> and VLIW4 should get us a bit better VLIW usage
931 2010-12-15 04:25:45 <ArtForz> = might end up 5% faster than 5870
932 2010-12-15 04:26:04 <nanotube> EvanR: yes, there may be some price differences between the various markets, depending on costs of entry, counterparty risk, etc.
933 2010-12-15 04:26:16 <Diablo-D3> and uses about 5% more watts than a 5870
934 2010-12-15 04:26:33 <nanotube> EvanR: but say in case of "the mtgox market"... trading only occurs inside the bid/ask spread.
935 2010-12-15 04:26:49 <ArtForz> yep
936 2010-12-15 04:26:51 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: and costs about 5% more
937 2010-12-15 04:26:51 <EvanR> nanotube: so at a single market, there is only one price?
938 2010-12-15 04:27:12 <ArtForz> but it means 6990 should end up roughly == 5970
939 2010-12-15 04:27:22 <Diablo-D3> I wonder where they were going with this
940 2010-12-15 04:27:23 <ArtForz> at least we wont have to go hunting for remaining stock of 58xxs
941 2010-12-15 04:27:23 <Diablo-D3> except for the vastly improved tess
942 2010-12-15 04:27:24 <Diablo-D3> whats the up side?
943 2010-12-15 04:27:42 <nanotube> EvanR: assuming uniform goods (like bitcoins), yes. in case of tomatoes, no, because someone might sell better quality tomatoes than someone else. :)
944 2010-12-15 04:27:48 <EvanR> currency in general is uniform?
945 2010-12-15 04:27:57 <ArtForz> I have to check detailed specs, but I suspect they also beefed up ROP and TEX units
946 2010-12-15 04:28:14 <EvanR> im going to the bitcoin-otc channel to see how this works
947 2010-12-15 04:28:21 <Keefe> but how likely is it that the price of 6990 will be <$500?
948 2010-12-15 04:28:25 <ArtForz> = 58xx was ALU heavy
949 2010-12-15 04:28:26 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah, but it doesnt seem to be improving fps
950 2010-12-15 04:28:34 <Diablo-D3> Keefe: it'll cost as much as the 5970
951 2010-12-15 04:28:55 <Keefe> about as much as the 5970 did a few months ago? or now?
952 2010-12-15 04:28:57 <Diablo-D3> Keefe: the 6970 costs as much as a 5870, the 6950 costs as much as a 5850
953 2010-12-15 04:29:08 <Diablo-D3> and the 68xx is really pushing the price down
954 2010-12-15 04:29:30 <ArtForz> because 68xx is the new 57xx
955 2010-12-15 04:29:35 <Keefe> i'd say a 5970 can be bought for $400 if one is patient
956 2010-12-15 04:29:37 <Diablo-D3> well no
957 2010-12-15 04:29:41 <Diablo-D3> 68xx is the new 58xx
958 2010-12-15 04:29:59 <Diablo-D3> same speed, much lower price
959 2010-12-15 04:30:11 <Diablo-D3> and less watts, and smaller physical die size
960 2010-12-15 04:30:13 <ArtForz> 6970 is maybe 10% faster than 5870
961 2010-12-15 04:30:17 <ArtForz> 6870 is a LOT slower
962 2010-12-15 04:30:22 <Diablo-D3> not on 3D it isnt
963 2010-12-15 04:30:34 <Diablo-D3> the question is
964 2010-12-15 04:30:36 <da2ce7> well for generations it counts.
965 2010-12-15 04:30:36 <Keefe> 5870 is their top single chip in the 5xxx series. 6970 is the top single chip in the 6xxx series, right?
966 2010-12-15 04:30:40 <ArtForz> yes it is, 6870 is ~5850
967 2010-12-15 04:30:45 <ArtForz> yep
968 2010-12-15 04:30:53 <nanotube> EvanR: yes, currency, stocks, bonds... all uniform, and all usually have "one price" at any given moment in time.
969 2010-12-15 04:30:54 <Diablo-D3> if the 69xx doesnt significantly beat 58xx