1 2010-12-18 00:00:32 <slush_cz> da2ce7: I don;t think so, because they will tell 'he takes 1 BTC and also fakes his shares" :-D
  2 2010-12-18 00:01:37 <da2ce7> no, but they just say: 'slush makes his proffit from faking his shares'
  3 2010-12-18 00:02:22 <da2ce7> but if you take a honest cut, then they must say, 'slush makes is 1BTC and is greedy so he also fakes his shares'
  4 2010-12-18 00:02:34 <da2ce7> the second argument is much weaker.
  5 2010-12-18 00:03:00 <slush_cz> da2ce7: Currently, the pool is really fun for me, I'm enjoying that. Trust me that I can earn much more money per hour by my job than faking shares of my GPU :-D
  6 2010-12-18 00:03:32 <Kiba> bitcoin! turbocharging the economy!
  7 2010-12-18 00:04:06 <da2ce7> lol ofcourse, but people are naturaly inclined to distrust charity.  that is just the way we are.
  8 2010-12-18 00:04:14 <slush_cz> ...by spending tens of hours of my work on free service and then fake my gpu shares...
  9 2010-12-18 00:04:54 <slush_cz> da2ce7: Reality is much more simple. I'm speculating on NASDAQ and programming because it is very flat those days :-D
 10 2010-12-18 00:05:28 <da2ce7> slush, I know it is silly; I am just trying to help you out with the psychology.
 11 2010-12-18 00:05:42 <slush_cz> da2ce7: I get it and thank you.
 12 2010-12-18 00:06:01 <helmut> slush_cz: what did you suggest to improve sqlite performance again?
 13 2010-12-18 00:06:23 <helmut> slush_cz: I have now solved most issues, so only the io performance is a real problem now.
 14 2010-12-18 00:06:28 <slush_cz> da2ce7: I will introduce fees. And I will announce "Users press me to stop provide service for free!" :-D
 15 2010-12-18 00:06:46 <slush_cz> helmut: Sorry, I probably skip many of your comments
 16 2010-12-18 00:07:05 <helmut> slush_cz: oh I was a bit idle. ;-)
 17 2010-12-18 00:08:08 <slush_cz> helmut: I do not have real experience with sqllite, but with heavyweight databases. But when I want to make fast confirmed writes to any storage, I should implement commit log and will crunch data to some better structure assynchronously
 18 2010-12-18 00:08:32 <slush_cz> helmut: As every smart database software does
 19 2010-12-18 00:08:44 <da2ce7> lol, I expect that would be the worst type of announcement! maybe announce "Thankyou for all the people that have help me test this service while it was free, I am now going to take a cut of 1BTC from every block as compensation for running the service"
 20 2010-12-18 00:09:08 <slush_cz> da2ce7: It was JOKE :-D
 21 2010-12-18 00:10:02 <helmut> slush_cz: I just set it up to commit every ten seconds. now it is entirely cpu bound.
 22 2010-12-18 00:12:43 <helmut> there should be a portable(!) file format for exchanging block chains via other means than network.
 23 2010-12-18 00:12:48 <helmut> any ideas?
 24 2010-12-18 00:12:52 <slush_cz> da2ce7: But I see you are not mining in pool...
 25 2010-12-18 00:13:18 <da2ce7> slush, we discoverd that my connection was too unreliable.
 26 2010-12-18 00:13:35 <slush_cz> da2ce7: ah, australia, right? Too many people around
 27 2010-12-18 00:14:10 <da2ce7> yep, I'm waiting for the proxy, I'm going to get my brother to mine on your service, has he has a much more reliable connection.
 28 2010-12-18 00:14:20 <da2ce7> *as he
 29 2010-12-18 00:14:34 <slush_cz> great. And I'm chatting on irc instead of programming
 30 2010-12-18 00:15:08 <slush_cz> but today service restart was mainly because of proxy. There is already API for it.
 31 2010-12-18 00:15:18 <da2ce7> Back to Work! and Beyond!
 32 2010-12-18 00:15:45 <slush_cz> helmut: Is the speed main issue now? I keep rule 1) get it working 2) optimize
 33 2010-12-18 00:15:52 <slush_cz> This is the right what I'm doing with pool
 34 2010-12-18 00:16:15 <slush_cz> Naturally I'm perfectionist, but in this attitude I will never release anything.
 35 2010-12-18 00:16:17 <helmut> slush_cz: I don't have all day waiting for it.
 36 2010-12-18 00:16:22 <slush_cz> World is not perfect
 37 2010-12-18 00:16:37 <helmut> slush_cz: my rule is similar but different 1) get it working, 2) when speed is annoying, optimize.
 38 2010-12-18 00:16:39 <slush_cz> helmut: Well, it is SO slow?
 39 2010-12-18 00:17:01 <helmut> after my last restart, I am still waiting for it to complete the block chain check.
 40 2010-12-18 00:17:10 <helmut> for only 1/8 of the total chain
 41 2010-12-18 00:17:30 <slush_cz> hm, interesting. How much data it is?
 42 2010-12-18 00:17:42 <slush_cz> I think 100.000 data blocks should not be so slow!
 43 2010-12-18 00:18:05 <helmut> uhh. finished. now downloading again
 44 2010-12-18 00:18:10 <helmut> I reached like block 22k now
 45 2010-12-18 00:19:00 <slush_cz> how large is one block?
 46 2010-12-18 00:19:04 <jgarzik> helmut: if you do not have a wallet, you can download the blk*.dat databases from http://yyz.us/bitcoin/block-db-94000.tar.bz2
 47 2010-12-18 00:19:23 <jgarzik> slush_cz: see rightmost 'Size' column at http://blockexplorer.com/
 48 2010-12-18 00:19:25 <helmut> downloading + checking + inserting seems to be faster than checking the chain from sql...
 49 2010-12-18 00:19:34 <helmut> jgarzik: could you remind me about the meaning of portable again?
 50 2010-12-18 00:19:42 <jgarzik> helmut: ?
 51 2010-12-18 00:19:44 <slush_cz> wow, somebody donated me again. Thanks!
 52 2010-12-18 00:19:56 <jgarzik> helmut: those files work on 32-bit, 64-bit, linux, windows
 53 2010-12-18 00:20:10 <helmut> jgarzik: uh. ok. and where is a data spec? ;-)
 54 2010-12-18 00:20:41 <jgarzik> just suggesting a way to speed your download, not solve all the world's ills.
 55 2010-12-18 00:20:57 <helmut> jgarzik: I download from localhost
 56 2010-12-18 00:21:31 <helmut> jgarzik: and without a spec your file is completely useless.
 57 2010-12-18 00:21:35 <slush_cz> helmut: Don't tell me you are crunching 22 MB of data more than two minute??
 58 2010-12-18 00:21:51 <slush_cz> helmut: I'm talking about raw disc performance
 59 2010-12-18 00:21:52 <helmut> slush_cz: did I mention performance to be suboptimal?
 60 2010-12-18 00:22:28 <jgarzik> helmut: huh?  for users wishing to get bitcoin running without a length initial block download, they simply copy those two files into their data directory.  several others have found it quite useful.
 61 2010-12-18 00:23:00 <slush_cz> jgarzik: Thanks for link
 62 2010-12-18 00:23:19 <helmut> jgarzik: well I am not using the official bitcoin client.
 63 2010-12-18 00:23:24 <Kiba> yo
 64 2010-12-18 00:23:33 <Kiba> anybody expert with mybitcoin toolkit thingy?
 65 2010-12-18 00:23:48 <slush_cz> helmut: You told me disk access (with sqllite) is too slow and how it should be faster, right?
 66 2010-12-18 00:24:11 <helmut> slush_cz: well with "commit every 10 seconds" it's cpu bound now
 67 2010-12-18 00:24:20 <slush_cz> oh, right
 68 2010-12-18 00:24:36 <slush_cz> sorry, my language skills are often on the edge O:-)
 69 2010-12-18 00:28:07 <jgarzik> Kiba: ignore the toolkit.  it just uses HTML forms.  you can do HTML forms, right?
 70 2010-12-18 00:28:33 <Kiba> yes, I already done that
 71 2010-12-18 00:28:43 <Kiba> my question is mainly how can I secure it...
 72 2010-12-18 00:29:04 <Kiba> www.soulplaying.com/notify will give user 30 more days :O
 73 2010-12-18 00:29:21 <Kiba> maybe I should ask the ruby on rails folk instead
 74 2010-12-18 00:29:58 <Kiba> does mybitcoin POST data?
 75 2010-12-18 00:30:02 <Kiba> some kind of data?
 76 2010-12-18 00:30:07 <Kiba> to verify it
 77 2010-12-18 00:30:33 <jgarzik> Kiba: the status URL specifies a URL on -your- server, to which mybitcoin will POST (or GET) form data describing the approved transaction.
 78 2010-12-18 00:30:45 <Kiba> ah, I dind't know
 79 2010-12-18 00:30:50 <xelister> Kiba:  you want to add   list-style:none outside none;  to the menu's css
 80 2010-12-18 00:31:07 <Kiba> really, that's showing up still?
 81 2010-12-18 00:31:11 <xelister> yeap, dots
 82 2010-12-18 00:31:56 <Kiba> I have in ul { list-style: none; }
 83 2010-12-18 00:32:07 <Kiba> hmm
 84 2010-12-18 00:33:17 <Kiba> uh oh
 85 2010-12-18 00:33:18 <xelister> no, you have
 86 2010-12-18 00:33:19 <Kiba> huge problem
 87 2010-12-18 00:33:40 <xelister> need ul#navbar or smth probably.  the id is on the <ul>, not above it
 88 2010-12-18 00:42:55 <genjix> hey Kiba
 89 2010-12-18 00:43:05 <genjix> just a small suggestion about writing
 90 2010-12-18 00:43:18 <Kiba> yay!
 91 2010-12-18 00:43:20 <Kiba> delete works!
 92 2010-12-18 00:43:31 <Kiba> genjix: subject verb agreement?
 93 2010-12-18 00:43:41 <genjix> if you're on a page about bitcoin then saying "bitcoin clients" is redundant. "client" is sufficient.
 94 2010-12-18 00:43:53 <dissected> quit
 95 2010-12-18 00:43:57 <genjix> (extra words just make text harder to read)
 96 2010-12-18 00:44:05 <dissected> n/m
 97 2010-12-18 00:44:08 <genjix> i mean from the wiki :p
 98 2010-12-18 00:44:50 <genjix> just saw that you have lots of sentences where you add extra words when the meaning is clear
 99 2010-12-18 00:44:58 <genjix> (not criticising, just offering a tip)
100 2010-12-18 00:55:43 <helmut> is a block referencing strange/bogous/broken/whatever transactions to be considered valid?
101 2010-12-18 00:58:32 <slush_cz> wow, block found!
102 2010-12-18 00:58:54 <slush_cz> !newpool
103 2010-12-18 00:59:18 <xulrunner> Hum
104 2010-12-18 01:08:29 <helmut> slush_cz: I really think that most of the performance hit stems from sqlite3 now
105 2010-12-18 01:08:33 <helmut> slush_cz: even for selects
106 2010-12-18 01:11:58 <slush_cz> helmut: It is possible. sqllite is general purpose storage and you need only subset of data. But writing own serializing and searching is imho overhead in this stage. If you have good interface, it would be easy to switch to something better later
107 2010-12-18 01:12:10 <slush_cz> ...subset of functions... sorry
108 2010-12-18 01:13:50 <helmut> it *was* easy to switch to bsddb
109 2010-12-18 01:13:56 <helmut> and it is *way* faster.
110 2010-12-18 01:14:54 <slush_cz> sorry, don't have any experiences with
111 2010-12-18 01:16:44 <helmut> well it's now io bound again, but I did 1/3 of the block space in one minute from scratch now.
112 2010-12-18 01:24:46 <helmut> update process just reached 000000000003DC99DC176896AE4F25C02C6A0E039B430DFE5D0D5120E4C1C6C6 :-)
113 2010-12-18 01:47:58 <da2ce7> ;;bc,stats
114 2010-12-18 01:48:01 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98140 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 643 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 19 hours, 55 minutes, and 52 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14282.53719530
115 2010-12-18 01:50:37 <Kiba> jgarzik: maybe you're willing to help us document what the SGI toolkit do. I didn't even know there's this status thing...
116 2010-12-18 06:31:43 <mizerydearia> Is anyone available and interest in proofreading and possibly offering helpful revisions to a letter I have prepared?
117 2010-12-18 06:31:55 <mizerydearia> s/interest/interested/ <-- an example of a revision
118 2010-12-18 06:33:12 <MT`AwAy> mizerydearia: a letter for what?
119 2010-12-18 06:33:35 <mizerydearia> MT`AwAy, A letter that I will send to many hundreds of restaurants in the pizza industry
120 2010-12-18 06:34:24 <MT`AwAy> to ask them to adopt bitcoins ?
121 2010-12-18 06:35:01 <mizerydearia> MT`AwAy, http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2305.new#new
122 2010-12-18 06:36:07 <MT`AwAy> :p
123 2010-12-18 06:36:35 <MT`AwAy> you could first implement pizza delivery that have an API
124 2010-12-18 06:36:39 <mizerydearia> I would like it to appear more professionally written.
125 2010-12-18 06:36:46 <mizerydearia> humm
126 2010-12-18 06:37:02 <mizerydearia> The site will offer both delivery options and take-out
127 2010-12-18 06:37:13 <mizerydearia> Some restaurants do not deliver.
128 2010-12-18 06:38:24 <doublec> I think the first paragraph should talk less about bitcoins and more about the benefit to the pizza shop owner
129 2010-12-18 06:38:45 <doublec> Many will read the first paragraph and stop
130 2010-12-18 06:38:53 <mizerydearia> true
131 2010-12-18 06:39:01 <doublec> I wouldn't use the word 'crypto-currency'
132 2010-12-18 06:39:09 <doublec> I just say a new Internet currency called Bitcoin
133 2010-12-18 06:39:11 <mizerydearia> ^_^
134 2010-12-18 06:39:30 <doublec> I wouldn't even say 'new'
135 2010-12-18 06:39:33 <mizerydearia> mm
136 2010-12-18 06:39:36 <doublec> Just 'an Internet currency'
137 2010-12-18 06:39:44 <mizerydearia> fixed
138 2010-12-18 06:40:40 <doublec> Immediately after the first sentence I'd give the benefit to the pizza owner
139 2010-12-18 06:40:47 <mizerydearia> Shall I remove "In this way the website I am developing will provide the ability to buy pizzas with Bitcoins, which will help the currently small Bitcoin community to have another way to spend their Bitcoins." entirely or change it to something else?
140 2010-12-18 06:41:36 <doublec> yes
141 2010-12-18 06:41:40 <doublec> remove it entirely
142 2010-12-18 06:41:50 <doublec> They don't care about benefits to the bitcoin community
143 2010-12-18 06:42:05 <doublec> and hearing that it's small won't help them make a positive decision
144 2010-12-18 06:42:11 <mizerydearia> true
145 2010-12-18 06:42:33 <mizerydearia> "I look forward to encouraging additional users to become customers at various pizza restaurants around the world by making the web site fun and entertaining to use." seems funny
146 2010-12-18 06:43:27 <doublec> Maybe a second sentence something like: "This service will provide participating pizza restaurants with additional customers looking for new ways to use their bitcoins."
147 2010-12-18 06:44:44 <mizerydearia> thanks "participating pizza restaurants" is good phrase.
148 2010-12-18 06:46:01 <doublec> The sentence about "inputting all of this data" being timely sounds like you're trying to get the pizza restaurant to do all the work
149 2010-12-18 06:46:11 <doublec> Instead, make it sound like a benefit to them
150 2010-12-18 06:46:12 <doublec> eg
151 2010-12-18 06:47:12 <doublec> "To enure that the information held about your restaurant is up to date I will provide you with the ability to enter available food data and prices and keep it up to date."
152 2010-12-18 06:47:18 <doublec> s/enure/ensure
153 2010-12-18 06:48:21 <glassresistor> I was thinking of the viability of keeping a night outs worth of btc say 500 and the merchants "swipe" the stick then copy the wallet and send the funds to another local address
154 2010-12-18 06:48:22 <doublec> will this be a free service for the restaurants? If so you should mention that.
155 2010-12-18 06:48:56 <doublec> "additionally a variety of other food-related informations." <-- 'information', not 'informations'
156 2010-12-18 06:49:21 <grondilu> Is there a maximum number of transactions per block ?
157 2010-12-18 06:50:03 <doublec> This is a bit hard to read: "and once the pizza order request is fulfilled and confirmed by the originating user, the paying user will receive the Bitcoins offered by the originating user. "
158 2010-12-18 06:50:19 <glassresistor> It would require some software to pull X btc out of your wallet as r
159 2010-12-18 06:51:24 <glassresistor> and insert btc into a temporary db to be transg
160 2010-12-18 06:51:35 <glassresistor> transfer
161 2010-12-18 06:52:30 <glassresistor> to both validate the keys and avoid double spending
162 2010-12-18 06:53:10 <doublec> maybe: "Other users can then agree to fulfill that user's pizza order request by paying your restaurant directly in your own currency. You will not be involved in the actual bitcoin transaction as that will be negotiated by the users on the site."
163 2010-12-18 06:53:14 <doublec> something like that
164 2010-12-18 06:53:35 <doublec> it's still a bit wordy
165 2010-12-18 06:53:59 <glassresistor> I meant keep the 500 btc on a USB
166 2010-12-18 06:54:38 <glassresistor> This would mean the spender doesn't need net access
167 2010-12-18 06:54:47 <doublec> currently there's no way to 'import' from another wallet
168 2010-12-18 06:54:51 <glassresistor> But merchant would
169 2010-12-18 06:55:00 <doublec> otherwise the idea is good
170 2010-12-18 06:56:05 <glassresistor> Your wallet is just a list of hashes correct?  In berkleuc
171 2010-12-18 06:56:12 <glassresistor> db
172 2010-12-18 06:56:52 <glassresistor> I assume it has apis one could use
173 2010-12-18 06:57:08 <doublec> I don't know
174 2010-12-18 06:57:22 <doublec> my knowledge of the internals of the software is pretty much zero
175 2010-12-18 06:57:30 <glassresistor> How many sha256 hashes make one btc
176 2010-12-18 06:57:39 <doublec> jgarzik, what is the regression?
177 2010-12-18 06:58:38 <glassresistor> doublec: In fairly sure that's how it works
178 2010-12-18 06:59:11 <glassresistor> Only thing is the vendor could take all the ones
179 2010-12-18 06:59:22 <glassresistor> Stored on the USB
180 2010-12-18 06:59:52 <glassresistor> But cards have the same problem
181 2010-12-18 07:00:07 <jgarzik> 1855.82 khash/sec (gcc 4.4.x) down to 1390 khash/sec (gcc 4.5.x)
182 2010-12-18 07:00:11 <jgarzik> doublec: ^^^ performance
183 2010-12-18 07:00:17 <doublec> wow, big difference
184 2010-12-18 07:00:23 <doublec> are you using sse intrinsics?
185 2010-12-18 07:00:32 <glassresistor> jgarzik: Sucks
186 2010-12-18 07:00:35 <jgarzik> doublec: yes.  this is tcatm's 4way sha
187 2010-12-18 07:01:27 <jgarzik> oh well.  that's what virtual machines are for.
188 2010-12-18 07:02:07 <glassresistor> Youll probably get similar performance loss
189 2010-12-18 07:02:19 <glassresistor> With the vm
190 2010-12-18 07:02:30 <jgarzik> glassresistor: the vm is a build platform
191 2010-12-18 07:03:03 <glassresistor> Ah
192 2010-12-18 07:03:12 <glassresistor> O
193 2010-12-18 07:14:40 <gibbz> i like cash cow
194 2010-12-18 07:17:06 <doublec> I hope you're winning!
195 2010-12-18 07:17:36 <gibbz> i was then i tried to transfer out and 17 disapeared :(
196 2010-12-18 07:18:07 <doublec> that's a bit odd
197 2010-12-18 07:18:23 <doublec> you should ask joe_1. He runs cash cow.
198 2010-12-18 07:19:19 <gibbz> i think it was just bad error handling, i dunno
199 2010-12-18 07:21:21 <mizerydearia> doublec, Thanks for the suggestions above.  I agree that my original rough draft was quite a beast.  How does it look now?
200 2010-12-18 07:21:23 <mizerydearia> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2305.msg31282#msg31282
201 2010-12-18 07:22:17 <doublec> mizerydearia, nice! I like it.
202 2010-12-18 07:23:14 <mizerydearia> yay, thanks
203 2010-12-18 07:35:14 <OneFixt> A question for the people familiar with GPU mining on Radeon - what's the best version of OpenCL to use?
204 2010-12-18 07:35:45 <OneFixt> Or rather, Stream SDK: 2.1, 2.3?
205 2010-12-18 07:37:06 <OneFixt> nvm, got the answer
206 2010-12-18 07:52:38 <slush_cz> Oh, mizerydearia, you are here. I just post my comments to forum.
207 2010-12-18 07:52:51 <mizerydearia> I noticed them
208 2010-12-18 07:52:51 <slush_cz> I agree current version is far better than original, but I think it is not enough
209 2010-12-18 07:52:58 <mizerydearia> I agree also
210 2010-12-18 07:53:03 <mizerydearia> I'm working on a revision.
211 2010-12-18 07:53:15 <slush_cz> Fuck out all the things about bitcoin. We are both interested in bitcoins too much, but they dont care
212 2010-12-18 07:53:16 <mizerydearia> Also, if you are up for it, I could use some assistance in a rewritten revision.
213 2010-12-18 07:53:45 <mizerydearia> Assistance in that you provide a draft that I can possibly use or take from.
214 2010-12-18 07:55:48 <slush_cz> I have big problems with language, you see :). I can write down points, but it is what I already did in forum post.
215 2010-12-18 07:55:49 <slush_cz> 1. Very short introduction about service
216 2010-12-18 07:56:17 <mizerydearia> I agree.  I am not too fond of my language as well.
217 2010-12-18 07:56:37 <slush_cz> mizerydearia: Are you a native English speaker?
218 2010-12-18 07:57:08 <mizerydearia> slush_cz, Yes. My English native is language very poor for it
219 2010-12-18 07:57:23 <slush_cz> :-D
220 2010-12-18 07:58:13 <mizerydearia> However, my communication and written skills are not so professional.
221 2010-12-18 08:00:26 <mizerydearia> hiya Myckel
222 2010-12-18 08:01:32 <slush_cz> I hope my comments helped a little. And I'm going to sleep again ;)
223 2010-12-18 08:03:02 <mizerydearia> They did.  I'm working on a new revision.
224 2010-12-18 08:03:44 <mizerydearia> mm, I should sleep too.
225 2010-12-18 08:04:34 <Myckel> hi mizerydearia
226 2010-12-18 08:22:31 <hundfred> hi, i would like to test my fesh-installed bitcoin client
227 2010-12-18 08:22:46 <hundfred> is there anybody that could send me a coin?
228 2010-12-18 08:23:48 <Myckel> hundfred, https://freebitcoins.appspot.com/
229 2010-12-18 09:04:32 <slush_cz> !newpool
230 2010-12-18 09:05:06 <Keefe> ;;bc,estimate
231 2010-12-18 09:05:07 <gribble> 14236.80292764
232 2010-12-18 09:06:44 <slush_cz> !newpool
233 2010-12-18 09:46:13 <omglolbbq> whats with bitcoin.cz
234 2010-12-18 09:46:16 <omglolbbq> can't find server
235 2010-12-18 09:59:43 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: Working well. I'm looking on console and there is plenty of traffic
236 2010-12-18 10:00:12 <omglolbbq> yes it seems to work now, maybe it was my connection
237 2010-12-18 10:01:13 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: There was restart before ~2 hours
238 2010-12-18 10:01:22 <slush_cz> outage under second
239 2010-12-18 10:02:42 <[Noodles]> doesnt really matter if miners crash :/
240 2010-12-18 10:03:28 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: I know. Not my fault, nothing I can fix
241 2010-12-18 10:03:41 <[Noodles]> yeah, i know, sucks anyway ^.^
242 2010-12-18 10:03:47 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: Tell miner author, PLEASE. Until then, nothing will be better
243 2010-12-18 10:04:13 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: In fact, it is pretty easy to improve miners to be stable. But authors didn't expect it will use unstable connection to bitcoind
244 2010-12-18 10:04:19 <[Noodles]> well, they never crash on local getwork-servers
245 2010-12-18 10:04:27 <sethsethseth_> how do i get my shortcut to restart if it quits cause of the server
246 2010-12-18 10:04:28 <[Noodles]> only on yours
247 2010-12-18 10:04:34 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: Yes, because it is localhost
248 2010-12-18 10:05:25 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: I have 20 requests per second and I really need to restart it sometimes. I'm doing my best to work 24/7/
249 2010-12-18 10:05:32 <[Noodles]> did i mention that DHL sucks big?
250 2010-12-18 10:05:39 <sethsethseth_> i want teh miner to fire up again if teh server restarts
251 2010-12-18 10:05:45 <RichardG> !pool
252 2010-12-18 10:05:47 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: Sorry, this is still beta software. I'm actively developing it
253 2010-12-18 10:05:55 <slush_cz> sethsethseth_: TELL AUTHORS
254 2010-12-18 10:05:57 <slush_cz> PLEASE
255 2010-12-18 10:06:06 <RG> gettinginfo|!pool
256 2010-12-18 10:06:06 <RichardG> Pooled miner (91.121.29.91:8335) status (last updated 58secs ago): 60 clients, 90777 khash/s, next block est. 6days 17hrs 1min 25secs
257 2010-12-18 10:06:10 <RichardG> !newpool
258 2010-12-18 10:06:26 <RG> gettinginfo|!newpool
259 2010-12-18 10:06:27 <RichardG> New pooled miner (mining.bitcoin.cz:8332) status: Round started 18/Dec/2010 03:17:33, 38 workers, 18126 shares contributed, 2453299 khash/s
260 2010-12-18 10:06:53 <slush_cz> you can hurdle here, but it will improve absolutely nothing, sorry
261 2010-12-18 10:08:14 <slush_cz> send miner's authors your tracebacks and so
262 2010-12-18 10:09:41 <slush_cz> hurdle -> howl, sorry
263 2010-12-18 10:15:44 <slush_cz> btw three restars of application server per day is > 99.996 % availability. Tell me which commercial site has it. Sorry, I'm little upset now, because users tell me every hour this, but bugs are not on my side.
264 2010-12-18 10:21:20 <sethsethseth_> no its totally fine to restart it, i just need my client to reconnect instead of quitting....
265 2010-12-18 10:21:49 <sethsethseth_> im trying to think of some way to rig it so it would  do that
266 2010-12-18 10:35:58 <slush_cz> sethsethseth_: Yes, write author
267 2010-12-18 10:36:54 <slush_cz> sethsethseth_: It is probably few-line bugfix
268 2010-12-18 10:40:59 <craiova> hi. I want to add a like in my .html website that sais "1 BTC = x USD". how can i do that? what's the code for that?
269 2010-12-18 10:41:23 <doublec> craiova, there's no constant value for 'x'
270 2010-12-18 10:41:32 <doublec> craiova, it depends on what market you want to use
271 2010-12-18 10:41:41 <slush_cz> sethsethseth_: Copy your traceback/error, go to forum, write new private message to jgarzik, momchil or Diablo, paste error and press Enter. This is the best think everybody can do
272 2010-12-18 10:41:45 <doublec> craiova, eg. mtgox? some other?
273 2010-12-18 10:42:08 <doublec> craiova, if you see http://bitcoinwatch.com/ you'll see different markets and their USD price
274 2010-12-18 10:42:54 <craiova> doublec: mtgox
275 2010-12-18 10:42:54 <doublec> craiova, you could use mtgox's price and get the JSON values from their ticker: http://mtgox.com/code/ticker.php
276 2010-12-18 10:43:12 <craiova> doublec: yea, but i don't know how to use json
277 2010-12-18 10:43:58 <doublec> craiova, you can't do it from just .html. You'll have to do it from some server side framework
278 2010-12-18 10:44:28 <craiova> oh, then i'll use some bash
279 2010-12-18 10:44:58 <craiova> thank you
280 2010-12-18 10:45:01 <doublec> np
281 2010-12-18 10:50:06 <helmut> could someone explain *why* transactions are made using forth-like scripts? what is the benefit of this expressiveness?
282 2010-12-18 10:50:59 <RichardG> bitcoin watch gives data on zipped xml/json?
283 2010-12-18 10:51:04 <RichardG> how inconvenient >_<
284 2010-12-18 10:51:24 <ArtForzZz> I think it's supposed to add extensibility
285 2010-12-18 10:53:26 <ArtForz> for example you could create a txout that requires a txin signed by 2 keypairs
286 2010-12-18 10:53:26 <RichardG> okay, found an unzipping DLL designed for mIRC
287 2010-12-18 10:54:27 <bd_> It seems like that could be done with a secret sharing approach
288 2010-12-18 10:55:03 <bd_> ah, but that would be vulnerable to revocation...
289 2010-12-18 10:55:14 <genjix> why would you zip a JSON :D
290 2010-12-18 10:55:37 <RichardG> bot is being transferred to another folder other than my desktop, please stand by
291 2010-12-18 10:56:27 <RichardG> done
292 2010-12-18 10:57:59 <ArtForz> imo it's still missing a few operators
293 2010-12-18 10:59:59 <ArtForz> or maybe not
294 2010-12-18 11:00:33 <helmut> could you also tell me what OP_CHECKSIG does precisely? in the simplest (not recommended) form it goes like scriptpubkey=[pubkey, OP_CHECKSIG] and scriptsig=[signature]. however I do not yet understand what is signed.
295 2010-12-18 11:01:06 <helmut> (well not recommended as in if you fetch a key from an ip)
296 2010-12-18 11:01:42 <ArtForz> thats also the standard form for spending a coinbase txout
297 2010-12-18 11:03:09 <ArtForz> iirc what's signed is the txout script and the txin script up to signature
298 2010-12-18 11:03:25 <ArtForz> well, the hash of that
299 2010-12-18 11:03:31 <helmut> thanks
300 2010-12-18 11:03:45 <helmut> sounds like tx verification is a tough job
301 2010-12-18 11:03:56 <ArtForz> well, not really
302 2010-12-18 11:04:11 <ArtForz> but yeah, reimplementing it is a PITA
303 2010-12-18 11:04:28 <helmut> well until now I managed to write a client that downloads and verifies a block chain
304 2010-12-18 11:04:38 <helmut> excluding merkle
305 2010-12-18 11:05:54 <ArtForz> merkle tree is easy
306 2010-12-18 11:05:57 <helmut> yes.
307 2010-12-18 11:06:13 <helmut> I know you did
308 2010-12-18 11:21:41 <cdecker> ;;bc,blocks
309 2010-12-18 11:21:42 <gribble> 98195
310 2010-12-18 11:40:30 <MT`AwAy> ok
311 2010-12-18 11:40:42 <MT`AwAy> http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/2405/bitcoinnodes.png <- most of the nodes are not accepting connections from outside (status "down")
312 2010-12-18 12:02:33 <genjix> MT`AwAy: fyi jgarzik owns pastecoin.com (i think)
313 2010-12-18 12:03:39 <genjix> http://poker.bitcoinvegas.com/wiki/ <- did you see 'Latest forum posts' on the right? We can do the same for Bitcoin if SWF has an API. I couldn't find one for it though.
314 2010-12-18 12:03:42 <MT`AwAy> genjix: did I get 35% ?
315 2010-12-18 12:03:54 <genjix> he hasnt sent me the money yet
316 2010-12-18 12:03:57 <MT`AwAy> genjix: we don't need that
317 2010-12-18 12:04:08 <genjix> ok
318 2010-12-18 12:05:33 <MT`AwAy> I'm playing around on the bitcoin P2P network to make a list of nodes
319 2010-12-18 12:05:45 <MT`AwAy> and have infos such as for how long the node has been up
320 2010-12-18 12:06:03 <MT`AwAy> so I can automatically generate better initial node list
321 2010-12-18 12:06:03 <[Noodles]> any known probs with new CCC/SDK on win7?
322 2010-12-18 12:06:11 <MT`AwAy> http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8799/bitcoinupnodes.png
323 2010-12-18 12:10:11 <Grantt> [Noodles]: cat 10.12 / sdk 2.3 ? No 'probs' but it's slower in normal mining, with --vectors it gives speed of almost sdk 2.1 without vectors on my gpu
324 2010-12-18 12:15:51 <DerrikeG> slush_cz: I presume you operate the PMS. User registration keeps throwing unhandled exceptions and won't let me log into those accounts, attempting to register over them says that the name is occupied.
325 2010-12-18 12:16:32 <helmut> ArtForz: indeed. merkle trees (once understood) are easy.
326 2010-12-18 12:17:30 <helmut> ArtForz: nice python recipe: y = iter(l); l = [doublehash(a+b) for a, b in zip(y)]
327 2010-12-18 12:17:38 <helmut> err zip(y, y)
328 2010-12-18 12:17:43 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: Oh, thanks, I will take a look
329 2010-12-18 12:18:33 <ArtForz> that seems to be missing something
330 2010-12-18 12:19:24 <helmut> ArtForz: you mean the loop or handling odd lengths?
331 2010-12-18 12:19:31 <ArtForz> odd lengths
332 2010-12-18 12:19:53 <helmut> yes.
333 2010-12-18 12:19:56 <ArtForz> bitcoin effectively duplicates last item in l to make a balanced tree
334 2010-12-18 12:20:21 <helmut> I know. I already verify merkle successfully.
335 2010-12-18 12:20:41 <ArtForz> btw, have you figured out WHY it's done that way?
336 2010-12-18 12:21:16 <helmut> I have an idea, but no implementation uses this "WHY".
337 2010-12-18 12:21:38 <helmut> if you change one entry in the list or add an entry, you only need to compute log(length) hashes.
338 2010-12-18 12:22:02 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: I activated your account 'DerrikeG'
339 2010-12-18 12:22:11 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: There is problem with mailing server
340 2010-12-18 12:22:18 <DerrikeG> Thank you, feel free to delete the other ones.
341 2010-12-18 12:22:30 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: Oh, wait a moment
342 2010-12-18 12:23:07 <ArtForz> hmmm... that should be the same with balanced and unbalanced trees
343 2010-12-18 12:23:16 <ArtForz> but adding an entry to a balanced tree is easier
344 2010-12-18 12:23:30 <helmut> well it is more a theoretical result.
345 2010-12-18 12:23:52 <helmut> in practise hashing the concatenation of all tx hashes should be faster than computing log(length) hashes.
346 2010-12-18 12:24:25 <ArtForz> yup
347 2010-12-18 12:24:51 <helmut> and btw. bitcoin implementation does not exploit the log(length) optimization technique.
348 2010-12-18 12:24:57 <ArtForz> I know
349 2010-12-18 12:24:59 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: Has weird problem with console.
350 2010-12-18 12:25:03 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: Done, please login
351 2010-12-18 12:25:40 <helmut> next thing is verifying transactions I think
352 2010-12-18 12:26:12 <helmut> and then I need some btc to do transactions myself.
353 2010-12-18 12:26:36 <ArtForz> well, hash tree is O(log n) for insertions and removals, chained hash is O(1) for insertions and O(n) for removals
354 2010-12-18 12:26:46 <DerrikeG> slush_cz: Login worked, should I be concerned with any field that isn't my Wallet ID and send treshold (should be threshold)?
355 2010-12-18 12:27:51 <ArtForz> and agreed, current impl recomputes the whole thing in several places
356 2010-12-18 12:27:58 <helmut> ArtForz: am I correct that I will need a fast txhash -> tx lookup?
357 2010-12-18 12:28:03 <ArtForz> yep
358 2010-12-18 12:28:39 <helmut> I wonder whether I can transfer money by tomorrow
359 2010-12-18 12:28:40 <ArtForz> to verify a block you need to verify contained transactions, and for that yxou have to find the tx the txins are referring to by hash
360 2010-12-18 12:29:39 <helmut> if I could that would be the most complete non-uptsream implementation, right?
361 2010-12-18 12:30:05 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: You have to register own workers (miners) on profile page
362 2010-12-18 12:30:11 <ArtForz> luckily tx hashes make decent (if slightly large) primary keys ;)
363 2010-12-18 12:30:33 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: I know about typo in threshold, unfortunately it is quite difficult to repair :)). Long story...
364 2010-12-18 12:30:39 <helmut> slush_cz: could you explain why this registering is necessary?
365 2010-12-18 12:31:44 <helmut> slush_cz: I mean all a worker would have to do is compute hashes and mention a bca. there should simply be no need to register at all.
366 2010-12-18 12:31:49 <slush_cz> helmut: a) Standard getwork API has nothing like "wallet"
367 2010-12-18 12:32:53 <helmut> b) you could identify sepearte workers by tcp connection? and a) bad implementation?
368 2010-12-18 12:33:18 <slush_cz> helmut: It is not persistent
369 2010-12-18 12:33:33 <slush_cz> helmut: Yes, bad implementation of bitcoin's getwork, you are right :)
370 2010-12-18 12:33:35 <helmut> well you can save the best hashes for the node.
371 2010-12-18 12:33:48 <slush_cz> helmut: I'm just wrapping accounting and checks over standard client
372 2010-12-18 12:33:55 <helmut> ughh
373 2010-12-18 12:34:14 <slush_cz> helmut: a) It works b) It is easy to maintain future releases of bitcoin
374 2010-12-18 12:36:00 <slush_cz> Don't understand your 'ughh'
375 2010-12-18 12:36:25 <DerrikeG> So I made baby's first miner attached to my account which is attached to my wallet. How do they work / do I need to put forward any additional effort / what am I doing
376 2010-12-18 12:36:35 <helmut> slush_cz: standard client sucks.
377 2010-12-18 12:37:02 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: Follow instructions on miner's homepage.
378 2010-12-18 12:37:36 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: If you have created account and workers on site and you have correct login/password for worker, you have to download some miner and run it
379 2010-12-18 12:38:12 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: Every miner have different parameters, but in general you have to enter URL to service (port 8332) and login/password for worker
380 2010-12-18 12:38:52 <slush_cz> helmut: Yes, but we are over 2Ghash now and server is in very good condition. So this is not an issue
381 2010-12-18 12:39:14 <slush_cz> Main issue are roundtrips / latencies and I'm working on
382 2010-12-18 12:39:58 <DerrikeG> Gotcha. I don't have a GPU (I'm pretty sure I'm integrated) and cpuminer threw me a json_rpc_call failed
383 2010-12-18 12:41:31 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: wrong parameters
384 2010-12-18 12:41:38 <slush_cz> post your commandline
385 2010-12-18 12:42:03 <slush_cz> btw many integrated cards already have gpu. Maybe it is poor, but better than nothing
386 2010-12-18 12:42:31 <slush_cz> I have 900 khash/s on my CPU (Intel Atom) and 2000khash/s on it's GPU (integrated nvidia)
387 2010-12-18 12:44:26 <DerrikeG> I didn't know I had to pass it anything, I anticipated a gui and all that. I don't know what I'm supposed to give it.
388 2010-12-18 12:45:46 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: No, unfortunately no miner have GUI
389 2010-12-18 12:46:05 <slush_cz> Run "cmd" and play in command line :)
390 2010-12-18 12:46:49 <slush_cz> cd "c;:Program FilesCPU-miner"
391 2010-12-18 12:47:07 <slush_cz> minerd.exe --help
392 2010-12-18 12:47:08 <slush_cz> will show you options
393 2010-12-18 12:47:35 <DerrikeG> Yeah. I was thrown off that there was a compiled windows version that didn't support the windows standard "/?".
394 2010-12-18 12:47:54 <slush_cz> minerd.exe --url http://mining.bitcoin.cz:8332 --userpass <workerlogin>:<password>
395 2010-12-18 12:47:57 <slush_cz> should work for you
396 2010-12-18 12:48:10 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: We are all linux hackers :-D
397 2010-12-18 12:48:48 <DerrikeG> I'm familiar with linux, just didn't expect that, I suppose :)
398 2010-12-18 12:49:02 <slush_cz> great, so you are at home now :)
399 2010-12-18 12:49:18 <DerrikeG> I'm on a quadcore, how many threads do you recommend I give it
400 2010-12-18 12:49:28 <slush_cz> core count
401 2010-12-18 12:49:31 <slush_cz> so 4
402 2010-12-18 12:49:40 <slush_cz> also play with algo parameter
403 2010-12-18 12:49:46 <slush_cz> it will improve performance a lot
404 2010-12-18 12:49:49 <[Noodles]> yay! my card finally arrived
405 2010-12-18 12:50:02 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: Hope you will attach it to pool :)
406 2010-12-18 12:50:18 <DerrikeG> slush_cz: How would I measure success with each algorithm?
407 2010-12-18 12:50:32 <[Noodles]> just been 30hrs late, that's what they call express-delivery
408 2010-12-18 12:50:32 <slush_cz> hashrate. It will print out after few seconds
409 2010-12-18 12:51:09 <Grantt> they propably mined with it at dhl, which is why its late, they waited for a block to fill ;)
410 2010-12-18 12:51:16 <[Noodles]> lol
411 2010-12-18 12:51:50 <slush_cz> yeah, they tested it for you already
412 2010-12-18 12:52:23 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: How much do you have?
413 2010-12-18 12:52:51 <DerrikeG> 677.87kh/s
414 2010-12-18 12:53:47 <DerrikeG> retrying with 4way, then the others
415 2010-12-18 12:56:06 <helmut> ArtForz: the only definition of opcode values is script.h, correct?
416 2010-12-18 12:57:49 <ArtForz> yup
417 2010-12-18 12:58:09 <DerrikeG> slush_cz: c: ~677.87kh/s, 4way: ~850.34kh/s, via: won't start, cryptopp: ~552.46kh/s
418 2010-12-18 13:00:27 <slush_cz> I guessed 4way will be the best
419 2010-12-18 13:00:45 <slush_cz> but it is not soo much at all. Which CPU?
420 2010-12-18 13:00:57 <helmut> uhh and numbers are pushed on stack in some binary representations
421 2010-12-18 13:02:45 <DerrikeG> slush_cz: AMD Phenom 9150e
422 2010-12-18 13:03:47 <slush_cz> Are all cores on 100% when running 4 threads?
423 2010-12-18 13:04:27 <slush_cz> and which graphic card? Are you sure there is no GPU?
424 2010-12-18 13:05:19 <DerrikeG> all cores maxed, granted I'm fiddling around in firefox and whatnot
425 2010-12-18 13:05:48 <DerrikeG> I'm going to set up the first listed GPU miner, too
426 2010-12-18 13:06:03 <slush_cz> ok
427 2010-12-18 13:06:26 <[Noodles]> should get a bit more, which cpu-miner version do you use? i get best results with 0.2.1, 4way on PhenomII X3 ~2400khash/s each core
428 2010-12-18 13:07:20 <DerrikeG> I'm using the latest windows build in the thread, each result is the max of each core. Normal bitcoin client mines at 3103 average.
429 2010-12-18 13:07:49 <DerrikeG> Which is now choking at a baby sized 28kh/s
430 2010-12-18 13:09:52 <[Noodles]> 850khash seems very slow, that's what my downclocked and undervolted 5000+ gets
431 2010-12-18 13:11:15 <DerrikeG> My computer may be malnourished.
432 2010-12-18 13:12:23 <slush_cz> MT`AwAy: With open port or also passibe?
433 2010-12-18 13:12:26 <slush_cz> passive
434 2010-12-18 13:12:52 <MT`AwAy> about 26.6% of all the running bitcoin nodes are accepting incoming tcp connections
435 2010-12-18 13:13:43 <MT`AwAy> my list tries to include all the nodes running bitcoin on ipv4, accepting connections or not
436 2010-12-18 13:14:04 <MT`AwAy> then I check each node to see if it accept connections, and if it do, I collect more informations (version, nodes connected to that node, etc)
437 2010-12-18 13:24:02 <DerrikeG> slush_cz: I don't quite catch how to tie m0mchil's GPU miner to your server
438 2010-12-18 13:24:06 <dsg> MT`AwAy: Interesting, is your dataset public?
439 2010-12-18 13:24:25 <dsg> (I know you haven't released your client yet :)
440 2010-12-18 13:25:04 <MT`AwAy> dsg: realtime exports of this data will be made available in json format
441 2010-12-18 13:25:11 <[Noodles]> DerrikeG: poclbm.exe --host=mining.bitcoin.cz --port=8332 --user=user.Worker --pass=urpass --device=X
442 2010-12-18 13:25:16 <slush_cz> poclbm.exe -u marekp.radeon1 --pass=**** -o mining.bitcoin.cz -p 8332 -d 1 -a 5 -w 128
443 2010-12-18 13:25:37 <MT`AwAy> dsg: (it's not related to my client, but I'll use it to have a nice initial pool of fallback nodes)
444 2010-12-18 13:25:52 <slush_cz> Oh, parameters after -p are optional, it is specific for my worker
445 2010-12-18 13:26:59 <dsg> MT`AwAy: Cool, I'll take a look when it's available :)
446 2010-12-18 13:27:09 <MT`AwAy> dsg: for now I'm still harvesting data from clients
447 2010-12-18 13:27:25 <DerrikeG> It crashed.
448 2010-12-18 13:27:48 <DerrikeG> Dumped a python error.
449 2010-12-18 13:28:12 <DerrikeG> http://pastebin.com/ueR6ckmr
450 2010-12-18 13:29:51 <DerrikeG> (listing dependencies in the first post would be a good idea)
451 2010-12-18 13:30:27 <slush_cz> Maybe related with http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1334.320
452 2010-12-18 13:30:39 <slush_cz> There should be no dependencies
453 2010-12-18 13:31:07 <slush_cz> You just have to install graphics driver with OpenCL support
454 2010-12-18 13:31:16 <slush_cz> Firstly check your card type. It will be much faster
455 2010-12-18 13:31:41 <slush_cz> http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/
456 2010-12-18 13:32:31 <MT`AwAy> WOW
457 2010-12-18 13:32:37 <MT`AwAy> there are still old clients running
458 2010-12-18 13:33:38 <ArtForz> *cue the sparta joke*
459 2010-12-18 13:33:53 <MT`AwAy> bitcoin 0.3.0
460 2010-12-18 13:34:15 <MT`AwAy> (I think)
461 2010-12-18 13:34:50 <ArtForz> yup
462 2010-12-18 13:36:20 <DerrikeG> My card doesn't support OpenCL so I guess I'm shafted.
463 2010-12-18 13:36:27 <MT`AwAy> looks like the addr message was changed between 31400 and 31500
464 2010-12-18 13:36:36 <ArtForz> yup
465 2010-12-18 13:37:46 <MT`AwAy> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=bitcoins_draft_spec_0_0_1#addr <- nothing is written there :(
466 2010-12-18 13:37:47 <helmut> ArtForz: any clue about how to import pubkeys to python? I found ecdsa implementation on pypi, but it seems to lack the curve.
467 2010-12-18 13:38:08 <helmut> ArtForz: another one is M2Crypto which is a ssl wrapper, but it seems to only support ascii representation of keys
468 2010-12-18 13:38:31 <ArtForz> afaik bitcoin uses ossls format for pubkeys
469 2010-12-18 13:39:40 <helmut> do you happen to know documentation for it? ;-)
470 2010-12-18 13:41:27 <ArtForz> pubkey is just 04 byte, x and y
471 2010-12-18 13:43:33 <helmut> do you also happen to know how to find start of y? doesn't seem to be netstringlike
472 2010-12-18 13:44:00 <MT`AwAy> helmut: x and y are both 32 bytes
473 2010-12-18 13:44:13 <helmut> :-)
474 2010-12-18 13:44:13 <MT`AwAy> so offset 0 = 04 offset 1 = x offset 33 = y
475 2010-12-18 13:44:26 <MT`AwAy> total: 65 bytes
476 2010-12-18 13:44:29 <ArtForz> or was it 2 279 bit numbers concatenated
477 2010-12-18 13:45:05 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz: nah it's as you said, 1 byte 04 32bytes x 32 bytes y
478 2010-12-18 13:45:28 <helmut> now I only need to find a crypto lib
479 2010-12-18 13:45:59 <ArtForz> or write one :P
480 2010-12-18 13:46:16 <helmut> nope
481 2010-12-18 13:47:35 <ArtForz> right, 04 identifies uncompressed coords
482 2010-12-18 13:49:06 <helmut> let me understand this:
483 2010-12-18 13:49:23 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: So you are bounded to CPU miner...
484 2010-12-18 13:49:37 <omglolbbq> is pooled mining less efficient? seems it takes double the  time on average to find a block then expected
485 2010-12-18 13:49:53 <helmut> with ec you agree on a field and some base point b. to create a key you choose some n (private) and compute b*n (public), correct?
486 2010-12-18 13:50:15 <DerrikeG> slush_cz: Which only goes a little bit faster than the standard bitcoin client.
487 2010-12-18 13:50:26 <ArtForz> the base point is G
488 2010-12-18 13:50:55 <helmut> whatever you wish to call it
489 2010-12-18 13:51:09 <ArtForz> no, thats standard notation
490 2010-12-18 13:51:34 <helmut> I didn't read that much ec literature yet
491 2010-12-18 13:51:37 <ArtForz> as one of the curve poly params is already called b
492 2010-12-18 13:52:36 <helmut> I only worked on general dlp so far.
493 2010-12-18 13:52:57 <ArtForz> I did a bit of work with EC
494 2010-12-18 13:53:08 <ArtForz> and EC over prime fields is really pretty easy
495 2010-12-18 13:53:23 <ArtForz> well, at least a basic implementation
496 2010-12-18 13:53:26 <helmut> actually I was quite impressed by a randomized algorithm with constant memory consuption solving dlp in sqrt(value).
497 2010-12-18 13:53:49 <ArtForz> yep
498 2010-12-18 13:54:11 <ArtForz> my personal fav is still pollards rho with distinguished points
499 2010-12-18 13:54:28 <helmut> that might be it's name or close to
500 2010-12-18 13:54:45 <ArtForz> well, that one isnt constant memory
501 2010-12-18 13:55:02 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: Yes, but every bit counts and it allow you to be remote
502 2010-12-18 13:55:42 <ArtForz> plain rho or baby step giant step is
503 2010-12-18 13:55:52 <ArtForz> but those dont parallelize too well
504 2010-12-18 13:56:16 <helmut> and baby/giant has sqrt(value) memory foot print
505 2010-12-18 13:57:25 <xelister> you guys are seriously still doing cpu mining?
506 2010-12-18 13:58:13 <ArtForz> ?
507 2010-12-18 13:58:37 <xelister> DerrikeG: just buy radeon 5770
508 2010-12-18 13:59:11 <DerrikeG> How many bitcoins would that cost
509 2010-12-18 13:59:53 <ArtForz> 600 or so?
510 2010-12-18 14:01:48 <xelister> around, yea
511 2010-12-18 14:02:57 <DerrikeG> Anybody feeling generous? I might be able to pay you back in five to ten years.
512 2010-12-18 14:03:39 <ArtForz> 5770 should do about 4 days/block at current diff
513 2010-12-18 14:03:41 <ByteCoin> MT'AwAy : You here?
514 2010-12-18 14:06:48 <xelister> DerrikeG: well, there is one solution to this, that makes more sense then pooled CPU mining. Want to hear it?
515 2010-12-18 14:07:07 <DerrikeG> Hit me
516 2010-12-18 14:07:14 <xelister> Tired of POOLED MINING with no result? GET PAID NOW! Doing usefull stuff:) Send pic of "Xelister and bitcoin rock! :*" pen-written: 0.01 BTC on hand; If ur cute girl: 0.05; 0.10 on back or above breasts; 1.00 on them(>18yo!). ~50 BTC for nice girls(PM me). Not faked! 3 nice foto >1MPix. FaceVisible=x2. | Ugly or male? No probl! Ask sister ;) -or- Email Adobe/MS/US gov/China why they're fags(0.03). Real offer:) PM before!
517 2010-12-18 14:07:37 <xelister> ha this is how insane cpu mining is, above makes far more sense <_<
518 2010-12-18 14:08:08 <lfm> you sleaze
519 2010-12-18 14:08:12 <ArtForz> lol
520 2010-12-18 14:09:01 <omglolbbq> lol xelister
521 2010-12-18 14:09:03 <DerrikeG> So, are each of those options available multiple times?
522 2010-12-18 14:09:40 <omglolbbq> 1 bitcoin to write something on your tits and send it to some unknown dude... wow.. a lot of girls must want to do that now! xD
523 2010-12-18 14:10:07 <lfm> he seems to be trolling for btc whores
524 2010-12-18 14:10:30 <xelister> this is a real offer
525 2010-12-18 14:10:31 <MT`AwAy> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fallback_Nodes#IPv4_Nodes <- look at the version for the last line in the table
526 2010-12-18 14:10:42 <omglolbbq> i offered the idea to my gf, she wasn't impressed with the 1 xD
527 2010-12-18 14:10:46 <xelister> and this options are avialble multiple times (but I dont want spend more then say 100 btc on all this fun ;)
528 2010-12-18 14:11:15 <xelister> omglolbbq: this is x100 times better then CPU mining.  CPU polled mining will give you like 0.007 BTC. :D
529 2010-12-18 14:11:22 <xelister> x10
530 2010-12-18 14:11:47 <xelister> omglolbbq: apparently you dont think your gf is cute?  ".. ~50 BTC for nice girls .."
531 2010-12-18 14:12:19 <lfm> now do you want nice or do you want cute?
532 2010-12-18 14:14:12 <omglolbbq> she'll put it on her back or belly for 10 xD lol
533 2010-12-18 14:15:43 <slush_cz> MT`AwAy: Why is Fixed:?? for mining.bitcoin.cz on Fallback Nodes page?
534 2010-12-18 14:16:03 <MT`AwAy> slush_cz: because I don't know if it's a fixed ip or not
535 2010-12-18 14:16:09 <slush_cz> it is
536 2010-12-18 14:16:11 <MT`AwAy> ok
537 2010-12-18 14:16:19 <ByteCoin> MT: Want to talk about ecc?
538 2010-12-18 14:16:22 <slush_cz> And "Accept IP transaction"?
539 2010-12-18 14:16:24 <MT`AwAy> fixed
540 2010-12-18 14:16:31 <Kiba> hey folks..
541 2010-12-18 14:16:42 <slush_cz> I think it accept, but never tested this feature of client yet :)
542 2010-12-18 14:16:46 <MT`AwAy> slush_cz: "Accept IP Transactions" will be enabled soon, as soon as I document ordercheck
543 2010-12-18 14:16:50 <MT`AwAy> well
544 2010-12-18 14:16:53 <MT`AwAy> detected automatically
545 2010-12-18 14:17:06 <lfm> MT`AwAy: my node is not techniclly fixed but it hasnt changed in years
546 2010-12-18 14:17:25 <ByteCoin> MT: I have a couple of mins if you want a hand with ECC. Did you just say you'd fixed it?
547 2010-12-18 14:17:44 <MT`AwAy> lfm: I guess this qualifies as "??" then
548 2010-12-18 14:17:45 <MT`AwAy> :D
549 2010-12-18 14:18:01 <lfm> ok
550 2010-12-18 14:18:40 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin: I didn't add secp256k1 in the pre-configured curves of libtomcrypt, I configure it manually when I need it
551 2010-12-18 14:19:02 <ByteCoin> So you have the right modulus and group order passed in?
552 2010-12-18 14:19:06 <MT`AwAy> yep
553 2010-12-18 14:19:17 <ByteCoin> The right generator?
554 2010-12-18 14:19:25 <MT`AwAy> I took them from SEC2 pdf at www.secg.org/collateral/sec2_final.pdf
555 2010-12-18 14:20:06 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin: http://ookoo.org/svn/snip/ltc-ecc/main.c <- my libtomcrypt test with the curve parameters
556 2010-12-18 14:20:08 <ByteCoin> Do you want me to check the maths for you?
557 2010-12-18 14:20:55 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin: that would be appreciated
558 2010-12-18 14:21:11 <MT`AwAy> maybe you'd prefer if I create a branch on github so you can watch the code itself and not some diff ?
559 2010-12-18 14:21:36 <ByteCoin> How about this:
560 2010-12-18 14:21:59 <ByteCoin> Can you print out the intermediate values from the doubling calculation?
561 2010-12-18 14:22:02 <DerrikeG> Is it possible for bitcoins to be (effectively) destroyed? Is the economy damaged in the long term through people somewhat interested in the project, starting it, getting some funds from the faucet, then never using it again?
562 2010-12-18 14:22:13 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin: of course
563 2010-12-18 14:22:25 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin: which variable do you want, and at which point ? :p
564 2010-12-18 14:22:45 <ByteCoin> Ok Post to the board the full calculation of doubling the base point
565 2010-12-18 14:22:51 <lfm> DerrikeG: thats not good but it wont destroy bitcoin I dont think
566 2010-12-18 14:22:53 <ByteCoin> Including all the intermedidate values
567 2010-12-18 14:23:06 <MT`AwAy> ok
568 2010-12-18 14:23:07 <MT`AwAy> 2s
569 2010-12-18 14:23:13 <lfm> deriif enuf people do it it could destroy the faucet
570 2010-12-18 14:23:17 <ByteCoin> Don't forget to transform back from the montgomery representation
571 2010-12-18 14:23:32 <ByteCoin> Then do the same but with adding two different points to each other.
572 2010-12-18 14:23:43 <lfm> DerrikeG: if enuf people do it it could destroy the faucet
573 2010-12-18 14:23:44 <ByteCoin> I can't look at the results right now
574 2010-12-18 14:23:54 <MT`AwAy> transform back to montgomery?
575 2010-12-18 14:23:56 <ByteCoin> But I'll look at them late sunday night
576 2010-12-18 14:23:56 <MT`AwAy> how do I do that ?
577 2010-12-18 14:24:11 <ByteCoin> Umm.. I have to look at the code
578 2010-12-18 14:24:11 <Kiba> use the economy cannot be destroyed just because bitcoin are horded
579 2010-12-18 14:24:25 <MT`AwAy> and I guess it only applies to some values
580 2010-12-18 14:24:28 <Kiba> the economy can't be destroyed just because some bitcoins are locked forever
581 2010-12-18 14:25:33 <Kiba> searchbots and engineering solution I guess
582 2010-12-18 14:25:48 <ByteCoin> Umm. Do you do the conversion to and from montgomery rep in your code?
583 2010-12-18 14:26:00 <ByteCoin> I can't obviously see where it happens
584 2010-12-18 14:26:12 <ByteCoin> You're familiar with montmult?
585 2010-12-18 14:27:01 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin: I'm familiar with byte, bits, logic operators, etc... but I suck at theorical maths
586 2010-12-18 14:27:17 <MT`AwAy> I think montgomery translation is done in modmul
587 2010-12-18 14:27:32 <ByteCoin> Ugh...
588 2010-12-18 14:27:42 <DerrikeG> I was thinking more in terms of, since those are funds that are pretty much locked away (lost wallet), that minimizes the amount of money available in the economy since it was established that no more will be "minted" after the cap. The economy doesn't recover from the effectively destroyed coins.
589 2010-12-18 14:27:47 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin: a comment says "tG = G  and convert to montgomery"
590 2010-12-18 14:28:03 <ByteCoin> I'm trying to quickly work out whether the library stores the point coordinates in mont rep or not...
591 2010-12-18 14:29:00 <ByteCoin> Also post the calculations and intermediate values of a doubling and point addition using Tom's built in curves for which the tests work...
592 2010-12-18 14:29:12 <ByteCoin> Do that, and I should be able to work out what's happening
593 2010-12-18 14:29:18 <MT`AwAy> since the changes, the test do not work anymore :p
594 2010-12-18 14:29:37 <ByteCoin> Ok Revert the changes until it works and then post the intermeidate values
595 2010-12-18 14:29:40 <MT`AwAy> (before, a was "modulo - 3", now a is explicitly set)
596 2010-12-18 14:29:48 <ByteCoin> Set to 0?
597 2010-12-18 14:29:58 <MT`AwAy> I took the official values from the SEC2 paper
598 2010-12-18 14:30:12 <xelister> omglolbbq: seriously :> ? hmm ok pm me lol
599 2010-12-18 14:30:18 <MT`AwAy> (basically, modulo-3 for the built in curves)
600 2010-12-18 14:30:30 <ByteCoin> Hmm...
601 2010-12-18 14:30:34 <xelister> bbl
602 2010-12-18 14:31:00 <ByteCoin> Got to go now... Post loads of intermediate values before sunday night and I'll slog through some maths for you!
603 2010-12-18 14:31:06 <ByteCoin> k?
604 2010-12-18 14:31:21 <MT`AwAy> ok
605 2010-12-18 14:31:32 <MT`AwAy> (btw here we are sunday)
606 2010-12-18 14:32:48 <Kiba> so
607 2010-12-18 14:32:57 <Kiba> the first auction of a bitcoin site ended
608 2010-12-18 14:33:04 <Kiba> and jgarzik now owns pastecoin
609 2010-12-18 14:47:29 <MT`AwAy> here
610 2010-12-18 14:47:37 <altamic> hello folks
611 2010-12-18 14:48:36 <MT`AwAy> https://smsz.net/btcStats/version <- now anyone can have an idea on client versions (it will only contain ~25% of the clients, since the rest do not accept incoming tcp connections)
612 2010-12-18 14:48:54 <MT`AwAy> (the [unknown] is nodes pending to be scanned. nodes not accepting connections are not included)
613 2010-12-18 15:04:13 <EvanR> whoa
614 2010-12-18 15:04:30 <EvanR> the mining pool now is at 2300Mh/s
615 2010-12-18 15:05:40 <EvanR> and new statistics are available to show it completed 5 blocks in the las 3 days
616 2010-12-18 15:09:55 <MT`AwAy> still lots of people with old bitcoins, I'm excluding them from my bootstrap url :)
617 2010-12-18 15:10:26 <MT`AwAy> (and way more bitcoins nodes announced on the bitcoin network than those present on irc)
618 2010-12-18 15:11:39 <MT`AwAy> on IRC we have like 1129 nicks, here I harvested over 2500 ips :)
619 2010-12-18 15:14:07 <MT`AwAy> 2723
620 2010-12-18 15:15:02 <slush_cz> EvanR-work: Was near 2800 for a moment. Then davout disconnected his two miners. I hope he will come back :)
621 2010-12-18 15:15:43 <ArtForz> wow, thats bad
622 2010-12-18 15:16:22 <slush_cz> MT`AwAy: It's much more clients than I expected. When I add those without open port (mine) and many people who uses mybitcoin (3 people around me), there are plenty of bitcoiners
623 2010-12-18 15:16:52 <MT`AwAy> yep
624 2010-12-18 15:17:12 <MT`AwAy> https://smsz.net/btcStats/version <- stats on the bitcoin versions on the network (still scanning, really slowly to not hurt anyone)
625 2010-12-18 15:18:27 <MT`AwAy> in a few hours the scan should be complete, I'll have a complete overview of the network
626 2010-12-18 15:18:36 <MT`AwAy> one node may hide connection do a thousand nodes I haven't listed yet :p
627 2010-12-18 15:19:20 <MT`AwAy> slush_cz: btw I count those without open port in my 2740
628 2010-12-18 15:19:49 <ArtForz> what do you count? unique addr()s in last 24h ?
629 2010-12-18 15:20:23 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz: yep
630 2010-12-18 15:20:43 <MT`AwAy> and I try to connect to them (for now it succeed for ~25% of the addrs)
631 2010-12-18 15:20:56 <MT`AwAy> and each time I connect to a node successfully I issue a getaddr
632 2010-12-18 15:21:37 <MT`AwAy> (and compare the result with my database)
633 2010-12-18 15:22:56 <MT`AwAy> it's a bit too early right now, but in one month or so I plan to provide exports of the ips that have continuously provided bitcoin service for more than one month for inclusion in the bitcoin client
634 2010-12-18 15:23:19 <MT`AwAy> (ie, have an initial seed for noirc of better quality)
635 2010-12-18 15:23:43 <MT`AwAy> 2904 nodes now
636 2010-12-18 15:24:37 <MT`AwAy> with GeoIP I'll be able to assign nodes to a country/region and do nice graphs :p
637 2010-12-18 15:26:00 <slush_cz> MT`AwAy: Export to http://www.bitcoinmap.com/
638 2010-12-18 15:27:04 <MT`AwAy> slush_cz: what kind of format do you want?
639 2010-12-18 15:27:23 <MT`AwAy> mh
640 2010-12-18 15:27:34 <MT`AwAy> the google map isn't working properly
641 2010-12-18 15:27:40 <MT`AwAy> wtf, flash?
642 2010-12-18 15:27:53 <slush_cz> yes, flash. Working for me
643 2010-12-18 15:28:16 <slush_cz> It has some open fileformat, so it is easy to add marks to map like this.
644 2010-12-18 15:28:32 <slush_cz> It would be great to add layer generated by your scanner
645 2010-12-18 15:28:50 <MT`AwAy> let me show you
646 2010-12-18 15:28:55 <MT`AwAy> http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7656/bitcoinmap.png
647 2010-12-18 15:28:56 <MT`AwAy> here
648 2010-12-18 15:29:11 <slush_cz> what browser? Firefox is fine
649 2010-12-18 15:29:16 <MT`AwAy> chromium, linux
650 2010-12-18 15:29:18 <MT`AwAy> flash 10.0
651 2010-12-18 15:29:24 <slush_cz> oh
652 2010-12-18 15:29:48 <MT`AwAy> adobe hasn't released any new version of flash 64bits for linux
653 2010-12-18 15:29:52 <slush_cz> chrome is OK
654 2010-12-18 15:30:10 <slush_cz> flash 10.1
655 2010-12-18 15:30:34 <craiova> Hi. what bash commands I could use to have the last BTC/PPUSD ratio?
656 2010-12-18 15:30:38 <MT`AwAy> oh, a bitcoin 0.3.6 user
657 2010-12-18 15:31:01 <craiova> something like grep www.mtgox.com "USD"
658 2010-12-18 15:31:07 <MT`AwAy> craiova: 2s
659 2010-12-18 15:32:12 <MT`AwAy> craiova: last price is fine, or you prefer buy/sell ?
660 2010-12-18 15:32:24 <craiova> last price
661 2010-12-18 15:32:45 <MT`AwAy> curl -s http://mtgox.com/code/ticker.php | sed -r -e 's/.*last//;s/^"://;s/}.*//';echo
662 2010-12-18 15:32:57 <craiova> thank you so much!
663 2010-12-18 15:33:19 <MT`AwAy> even better
664 2010-12-18 15:33:21 <MT`AwAy> curl -s http://mtgox.com/code/ticker.php | sed -r -e 's/.*last//;s/,.*//;s/^"://;s/}.*//';echo
665 2010-12-18 15:33:36 <craiova> people that know sed can do amazing things
666 2010-12-18 15:33:39 <MT`AwAy> in this one, replace the word "last" by "buy" or "sell", and you'll get the infos
667 2010-12-18 15:33:46 <MT`AwAy> also works with high, low and vol
668 2010-12-18 15:34:23 <craiova> great, thank you again!
669 2010-12-18 15:34:33 <MT`AwAy> craiova: well, it doesn't parse json, it just gets rid of the useless parts
670 2010-12-18 15:34:56 <MT`AwAy> slush_cz: anyway what would be the ideal for you, can you make variable-sized dots appear on your map ?
671 2010-12-18 15:35:32 <MT`AwAy> or is it better that I send you ~3000 long/lat coordinates?
672 2010-12-18 15:35:33 <craiova> MT`AwAy: it's great, i tested it
673 2010-12-18 15:35:37 <slush_cz> Its not my map
674 2010-12-18 15:35:49 <MT`AwAy> ok
675 2010-12-18 15:36:25 <MT`AwAy> btw who was writing a python client?
676 2010-12-18 15:36:37 <slush_cz> we all :D
677 2010-12-18 15:36:47 <MT`AwAy> https://smsz.net/btcStats/bootstrap <- you can poke this if you don't want to bootstrap through irc
678 2010-12-18 15:36:53 <slush_cz> everybody is writing it's own ;)
679 2010-12-18 15:37:09 <spm_Draget> The bitcoin-mining a very slow, isn't it? :P
680 2010-12-18 15:37:21 <MT`AwAy> spm_Draget: depends with what you are mining
681 2010-12-18 15:37:41 <MT`AwAy> if you only have a pickaxe, or if you have industrial stuff
682 2010-12-18 15:37:49 <Cusipzzz> hah
683 2010-12-18 15:37:49 <spm_Draget> c2d 2,0gz reduced to single-core, mining since 22h now
684 2010-12-18 15:37:53 <EvanR> spm_Draget: well i earned 0.07 so far in last few days with no gpus
685 2010-12-18 15:38:17 <MT`AwAy> spm_Draget: ok, so come back in one year for your 50 btc, or join the pool
686 2010-12-18 15:38:20 <Cusipzzz> EvanR ! what's the coin coint at? get any buys done?
687 2010-12-18 15:38:21 <MT`AwAy> you're using a pickaxe :D
688 2010-12-18 15:38:22 <slush_cz> MT`AwAy: I found this site on twitter. I think owner will be interested to receive your exports. It will fill site a lot
689 2010-12-18 15:38:50 <MT`AwAy> slush_cz: I could also use directly the google map api, or directly plot a worldmap
690 2010-12-18 15:38:51 <spm_Draget> flattr should go bitcoin =)
691 2010-12-18 15:39:09 <EvanR> Cusipzzz: no
692 2010-12-18 15:39:15 <slush_cz> spm_Draget: What you mean by 'slow' ? Site is responding
693 2010-12-18 15:39:35 <MT`AwAy> 2930 nodes in the table, getting closer to 3000
694 2010-12-18 15:39:53 <Cusipzzz> EvanR: :(
695 2010-12-18 15:39:58 <spm_Draget> slush_cz: I just checked back after my first night pickaxe-mining and saw that I made exactly 0 btc :P
696 2010-12-18 15:40:09 <MT`AwAy> spm_Draget: use the pool
697 2010-12-18 15:40:12 <MT`AwAy> ,,pool
698 2010-12-18 15:40:13 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
699 2010-12-18 15:40:35 <MT`AwAy> spm_Draget: with your c2d you're making what, 5000 khashes/sec ?
700 2010-12-18 15:40:54 <spm_Draget> 900 xD
701 2010-12-18 15:40:57 <MT`AwAy> XD
702 2010-12-18 15:40:59 <MT`AwAy> ;;bc,calc 900
703 2010-12-18 15:41:01 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 900 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 year, 44 weeks, 3 days, 17 hours, 23 minutes, and 7 seconds
704 2010-12-18 15:41:07 <MT`AwAy> about two years :D
705 2010-12-18 15:41:09 <Cusipzzz> lol
706 2010-12-18 15:41:12 <spm_Draget> Wheee
707 2010-12-18 15:41:13 <MT`AwAy> supposing the difficulty doesn't grow
708 2010-12-18 15:41:17 <MT`AwAy> (it will)
709 2010-12-18 15:41:24 <MT`AwAy> spm_Draget: so just join the pool :D
710 2010-12-18 15:43:16 <spm_Draget> I will rather set up some services using bitcoin =)
711 2010-12-18 15:43:42 <slush_cz> spm_Draget: use ,,pool, but don't expect too high reward. You will receive cents or less per block...
712 2010-12-18 15:43:43 <gribble> I do not know about 'pool,', but I do know about these similar topics: 'pool'
713 2010-12-18 15:43:51 <MT`AwAy> spm_Draget: yes, you can also participate in the bitcoin wiki at https://en.bitcoin.it/ and earn coins for good participations :p
714 2010-12-18 15:44:37 <EvanR> this blog claims that bitcoin exchanges are 'you can probably assume they are illegal'
715 2010-12-18 15:44:52 <EvanR> and in a legal gray area
716 2010-12-18 15:44:57 <slush_cz> !pool
717 2010-12-18 15:44:58 <RichardG> Pooled miner (91.121.29.91:8335) status (last updated 2mins 39secs ago): 68 clients, 142145 khash/s, next block est. 4days 6hrs 50mins
718 2010-12-18 15:45:22 <slush_cz> !newpool
719 2010-12-18 15:45:23 <RichardG> New pooled miner (mining.bitcoin.cz:8332) status: Round started 18/Dec/2010 03:17:33, 54 active workers, 28441 shares contributed, 2345984 khash/s
720 2010-12-18 15:45:40 <Cusipzzz> what blog?
721 2010-12-18 15:45:46 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: my accountant & lawyer found bitcoins to be legal under japanese law
722 2010-12-18 15:46:15 <EvanR> im confused about why they would not be legal
723 2010-12-18 15:46:22 <EvanR> in any country
724 2010-12-18 15:46:29 <Cusipzzz> it's def illegal in USA..patriot act, kyc rules for money transfers
725 2010-12-18 15:46:38 <slush_cz> EvanR-work:  money laundering
726 2010-12-18 15:46:41 <Cusipzzz> but..can it be enforced?
727 2010-12-18 15:46:51 <EvanR> what about laundering
728 2010-12-18 15:46:56 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: well here the issue was more regarding accounting & tax declarations, how should bitcoin income be declared?
729 2010-12-18 15:47:07 <lfm> if your money sez "this is legal tender" there may be laws saying everything else is not legal
730 2010-12-18 15:47:13 <slush_cz> EvanR Government cannot monitor financial flows
731 2010-12-18 15:47:26 <EvanR> MT`AwAy: it shouldnt
732 2010-12-18 15:47:39 <EvanR> why would you list income thats not in yen?
733 2010-12-18 15:47:49 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: I list income in EUR, USD, etc
734 2010-12-18 15:47:50 <EvanR> if you exchange for yen, then you list it
735 2010-12-18 15:47:55 <EvanR> or usd
736 2010-12-18 15:47:56 <MT`AwAy> and I also have expense in many currencies
737 2010-12-18 15:48:28 <EvanR> lfm: really?
738 2010-12-18 15:48:30 <lfm> yes there are accounting standards for multi-currencies
739 2010-12-18 15:48:53 <EvanR> slush_cz: but how does bitcoin fall under than and trading other things doesnt?
740 2010-12-18 15:48:53 <lfm> EvanR: I dont know what laws are in your country
741 2010-12-18 15:49:07 <EvanR> under that
742 2010-12-18 15:49:29 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: in many countries, using something else than money as "currency" is illegal, and may be seen as a tax evasion attempt
743 2010-12-18 15:49:35 <craiova> MT`AwAy: I have this line, but it wont work in conky ${execi 6000 curl -s http://mtgox.com/code/ticker.php | sed -r -e 's/.*last//;s/,.*//;s/^"://;s/}.*//';echo}
744 2010-12-18 15:49:35 <MT`AwAy> for example in France :D
745 2010-12-18 15:49:41 <lfm> EvanR: Most income tax organizations will tell you you need to pay tax on barter income too
746 2010-12-18 15:49:52 <EvanR> thats insane
747 2010-12-18 15:49:54 <MT`AwAy> craiova: what is conky ? :D
748 2010-12-18 15:49:59 <EvanR> wouldnt that be sales tax?
749 2010-12-18 15:50:10 <Cusipzzz> in the USA, it's more about money laundering, the govt needs to be able to identify source and recipient of money flows, otherwise it could be funding terrorist or sanctioned countries
750 2010-12-18 15:50:20 <craiova> MT`AwAy: it's an on-screen info panel
751 2010-12-18 15:50:29 <craiova> it sais: sh: Syntax error: Unterminated quoted string
752 2010-12-18 15:50:32 <EvanR> does the main stream media know anything about this?
753 2010-12-18 15:50:39 <MT`AwAy> craiova: try checking if there's no escaping required for the }
754 2010-12-18 15:50:41 <Cusipzzz> alternative currencies are legal in USA, many small communities use them
755 2010-12-18 15:50:55 <xelister> Cusipzzz: in usa they never shut the fuck up with the tired old story about imaginary 'terrorists' do they
756 2010-12-18 15:51:02 <MT`AwAy> craiova: there's a } in the sed regexp, since your line starts with ${ it may confuse your soft
757 2010-12-18 15:51:07 <Cusipzzz> xelister: sadly, no.
758 2010-12-18 15:51:20 <EvanR> imaginary terrorists eh
759 2010-12-18 15:51:27 <EvanR> are those more or less dangerous than the real ones?
760 2010-12-18 15:51:27 <slush_cz> Cusipzzz: I searched laws in my country (central Europe) and it is definitely illegal to pay in anything other than 'legal tender', which is CZK here.
761 2010-12-18 15:51:34 <xelister> HELP HELP TERRORISTS
762 2010-12-18 15:51:35 <MT`AwAy> xelister: don't forget the WMD
763 2010-12-18 15:51:39 <slush_cz> Cusipzzz: Strictly said, nobody should accept even USD or EUR here
764 2010-12-18 15:51:46 <xelister> you all seen it, Mike did it! Lets rape his wife
765 2010-12-18 15:51:52 <Cusipzzz> yeah.
766 2010-12-18 15:51:59 <xelister> yes, and Mike have weapons of mass destruction
767 2010-12-18 15:52:04 <xelister> WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION GUYS
768 2010-12-18 15:52:11 <xelister> think of the children
769 2010-12-18 15:52:18 <EvanR> alright stop the politics
770 2010-12-18 15:52:27 <xelister> so, who's going with me to my neighbour to take over his home and rape his wide
771 2010-12-18 15:52:29 <EvanR> im just interested in the laws
772 2010-12-18 15:52:29 <xelister> so, who's going with me to my neighbour to take over his home and rape his wife
773 2010-12-18 15:52:31 <xelister> and his kids
774 2010-12-18 15:52:33 <MT`AwAy> think of how afghanistan will become a great country with the love of god and all the good american things
775 2010-12-18 15:52:33 <slush_cz> xelister: don't post illegal words, big brother is watching you!
776 2010-12-18 15:52:37 <xelister> remeber, we are doing it for the kids
777 2010-12-18 15:52:39 <slush_cz> Talk in newspeak instead :)
778 2010-12-18 15:52:46 <xelister> to save the childrem
779 2010-12-18 15:52:57 <xelister> indeed slush_cz
780 2010-12-18 15:53:28 <lfm> slush_cz: some places dont have illegal words, its called freedom of speach
781 2010-12-18 15:53:28 <xelister> minpeace - Who goto mik aprt. to takeovr. wf & kds?
782 2010-12-18 15:53:41 <MT`AwAy> 4382 unique addr so far
783 2010-12-18 15:54:00 <slush_cz> lfm: But this is logged public channel, not place you are talking about :-D
784 2010-12-18 15:54:01 <Grantt> as far as i know (from experience) microcurrencies/tokens (ie: Entropia universe PED, Second life L$, now also BTC) are not subject to Sales-tax/VAT. Ie: in Secondlife if you buy a sim from someone for USD/EUR you must pay vat, but if you do so from someone in L$ you dont.
785 2010-12-18 15:54:18 <slush_cz> lfm: I'm kidding
786 2010-12-18 15:54:30 <MT`AwAy> Grantt: instead you pay vat when you convert your USD to L$
787 2010-12-18 15:54:39 <Grantt> you dont
788 2010-12-18 15:54:49 <xelister> the company behind L$ does pay vat then?
789 2010-12-18 15:54:54 <Grantt> you pay income tax if you cashout more than you pay in
790 2010-12-18 15:55:03 <Cusipzzz> in theory
791 2010-12-18 15:55:08 <Grantt> xelister: correct
792 2010-12-18 15:55:27 <xelister> in theory USA army brings peace, and in USA you have democracy
793 2010-12-18 15:55:29 <xelister> ha. ha. ha
794 2010-12-18 15:55:33 <slush_cz> haha
795 2010-12-18 15:55:38 <EvanR> ._.
796 2010-12-18 15:55:40 <Cusipzzz> hahaha
797 2010-12-18 15:55:57 <Grantt> xelister: winners write victory, and history is all about peace isnt it ;)
798 2010-12-18 15:55:59 <xelister> 8-}
799 2010-12-18 15:56:03 <Grantt> history*
800 2010-12-18 15:56:11 <xelister> well to some limits
801 2010-12-18 15:56:19 <MT`AwAy> "Some European SL users said that Linden labs forced this tax on them without notice and is charging tax on property that does not really exist (and thus should not be taxed under EU law). This viewpoint is completely incorrect, as VAT is a tax on both goods and services, with a 2003 E.U. directive covering the collection of VAT on digital services"
802 2010-12-18 15:56:40 <xelister> like, most americans know their grand???parents invide and backstabbed people to which 'american' land belonged, they just don't give two shits about it
803 2010-12-18 15:56:47 <MT`AwAy> (regarding vat on linden dollar)
804 2010-12-18 15:56:56 <Grantt> there is no vat on L$ :)
805 2010-12-18 15:56:59 <EvanR> xelister youre an idiot
806 2010-12-18 15:57:07 <xelister> MT`AwAy: that is actually interesting tax/law question
807 2010-12-18 15:57:17 <Cusipzzz> WoW gold is next
808 2010-12-18 15:57:19 <Grantt> but also i tax to norway (outside of EU, yay) so no vat neither
809 2010-12-18 15:57:19 <xelister> EvanR: say what?
810 2010-12-18 15:57:46 <xelister> imho people would be free if there would be no tax based on what you do
811 2010-12-18 15:57:48 <MT`AwAy> "If Linden dollars were a recognised currency, then normal money exchanger laws would apply to Linden Lab, and VAT would only be chargeable on the money exchangers' conversion fees and not the entire amount of the transaction."
812 2010-12-18 15:57:49 <xelister> just tax pay person
813 2010-12-18 15:58:05 <xelister> want to stay in Freedomlandia? Ok, pay 200 USD per month or gtfo.
814 2010-12-18 15:58:14 <MT`AwAy> :p
815 2010-12-18 15:58:15 <xelister> No need to controll how much you earn, and what "earning" means
816 2010-12-18 15:58:28 <xelister> like x1000 less officialls needed to controll this
817 2010-12-18 15:58:44 <xelister> some simple rules. simple rules are best
818 2010-12-18 15:58:49 <EvanR> the US tax system is complex. we all know this. please fix it and stop bitching
819 2010-12-18 15:58:53 <MT`AwAy> xelister: for companies that's called Delaware :p (LLC doing only business outside US => fixed $250/year tax)
820 2010-12-18 15:58:55 <xelister> and verifiable & not-cheatable
821 2010-12-18 15:59:15 <xelister> MT`AwAy: what do you mean? URL with more info please? pm me :)
822 2010-12-18 15:59:17 <xelister> bbl
823 2010-12-18 15:59:21 <MT`AwAy> lol
824 2010-12-18 15:59:34 <xelister> but I was speaking overall, also about people, not just companies/corps
825 2010-12-18 16:00:12 <MT`AwAy> yep, for people there are some such countries, but they are badly seen from other countries of freedom
826 2010-12-18 16:00:15 <xelister> instead of all this shit and black market, grey zone, bookkeeping tricks and other crap -> just pay fixed amount per month for using the country you're living in and that is it
827 2010-12-18 16:00:29 <Cusipzzz> some people use more than others
828 2010-12-18 16:00:36 <xelister> would be nice to have such a Freelandia - country where people are free ;)
829 2010-12-18 16:00:42 <EvanR> xelister: that makes no sense
830 2010-12-18 16:01:19 <xelister> free to do ALL (drugs, weapons, sex, prostitution, dengerous sports, ride with no seatbells etc ;) without nanny-state, as long as your actions:
831 2010-12-18 16:02:01 <wump> yes, simple rules are better and more effcient, they could be easily checked, no armies of expensive lawyers needed
832 2010-12-18 16:02:01 <xelister> 1) do not do to other people's controll-zone what given people do not agree to
833 2010-12-18 16:02:06 <Cusipzzz> who pays for the 100k hospital bill when you crack your head open with no seatbelt?
834 2010-12-18 16:02:21 <xelister> 2) controll zone of person is: his body, his possessions
835 2010-12-18 16:02:28 <wump> Cusipzzz: yourself
836 2010-12-18 16:02:30 <Kiba> YOU do
837 2010-12-18 16:02:40 <Cusipzzz> and if you don't have 100k, they let you die?
838 2010-12-18 16:02:44 <xelister> 3) what they do not want = also they must consent, and must be able to consent (i.e. above certain age)
839 2010-12-18 16:02:46 <Kiba> yeah
840 2010-12-18 16:02:47 <EvanR> Cusipzzz: yes
841 2010-12-18 16:02:52 <Cusipzzz> you carry a card with you showing how much you can spend
842 2010-12-18 16:02:53 <EvanR> rugged individualism
843 2010-12-18 16:02:53 <Kiba> you task risk!
844 2010-12-18 16:02:54 <Cusipzzz> ?
845 2010-12-18 16:02:58 <xelister> Cusipzzz: yea then you die
846 2010-12-18 16:03:08 <Kiba> your fault for not wearing seat belt!
847 2010-12-18 16:03:11 <xelister> get a cancer in say Poland and probably most of EU
848 2010-12-18 16:03:15 <xelister> you die, noone cures you
849 2010-12-18 16:03:36 <Cusipzzz> so when someone comes to emergency room, first step is verify ability to pay ?
850 2010-12-18 16:03:36 <xelister> even in USA
851 2010-12-18 16:03:41 <wump> or you find someone crazy enough to heal you for free, it's up to you
852 2010-12-18 16:03:44 <Cusipzzz> then decide treatment?
853 2010-12-18 16:03:46 <xelister> get a cancer -> need to find 100.000 for medication
854 2010-12-18 16:03:58 <Kiba> Cusipzzz: the hospital have limited resource anyway
855 2010-12-18 16:04:00 <Grantt> xelister: thats not entirely correct, your family feeds the pharmaceticual-industrial complex which is good for business
856 2010-12-18 16:04:02 <Kiba> better make it EFFICENT
857 2010-12-18 16:04:09 <Grantt> ;)
858 2010-12-18 16:04:15 <xelister> Cusipzzz: well such a freelandia would be a basic frame, a kernel ;) for other communities
859 2010-12-18 16:04:22 <Cusipzzz> haha
860 2010-12-18 16:04:26 <Kiba> if you want hospital to cure you more
861 2010-12-18 16:04:26 <xelister> then there could be community A,  where you pay X per month to get health care
862 2010-12-18 16:04:30 <Kiba> MAKE IT CHEAP
863 2010-12-18 16:04:30 <wump> insurance would still be possible though
864 2010-12-18 16:04:33 <EvanR> this freelandia is so broken and offensive
865 2010-12-18 16:04:34 <xelister> community B more communist like
866 2010-12-18 16:04:41 <xelister> community C more capitalist like, with VAT like tax
867 2010-12-18 16:04:43 <xelister> and so on
868 2010-12-18 16:04:48 <EvanR> makes me want to establish my own real free country, correctly
869 2010-12-18 16:04:59 <Kiba> Cusipzzz: look, what you need to do is industralize medical care
870 2010-12-18 16:05:00 <xelister> and people subscribe to given set of rules (to big extend, without need to move!!)
871 2010-12-18 16:05:11 <Kiba> then even poor people would be able to afford it
872 2010-12-18 16:05:26 <EvanR> the free peoples republic of ____
873 2010-12-18 16:05:32 <Kiba> get a bunch of heart surgeon, make them perform 3000 operations every month
874 2010-12-18 16:05:40 <xelister> instead of moving to country X where law is better, you just choose your set of laws, by like signing into organizations.  Actually this works already to extend: sign up for medical care plan e.g.
875 2010-12-18 16:05:49 <Kiba> then you got a bunch of highly paid surgeons who can make up for it in VOOOOOOOOOOOOLUME
876 2010-12-18 16:05:54 <Kiba> but also QUAAAAAAAAAAAAALITY
877 2010-12-18 16:06:11 <EvanR> xelister: is it legal to establish a country on US soil?
878 2010-12-18 16:06:19 <Kiba> it also make the medical establishment mad at you, I admit
879 2010-12-18 16:06:31 <wump> EvanR: nope, the US army would conquer you :P
880 2010-12-18 16:06:37 <xelister> EvanR: to some extent probably - like this cults that own big ranchos and land...
881 2010-12-18 16:06:40 <EvanR> thats stupid
882 2010-12-18 16:06:41 <xelister> EvanR: but better buy islad
883 2010-12-18 16:06:47 <Kiba> Cusipzzz: see? saving lives is a matter of economy of scale and scientific advancement
884 2010-12-18 16:06:51 <Grantt> you can establish a country offshore (on international waters)
885 2010-12-18 16:06:52 <EvanR> now i have ot have my own defense
886 2010-12-18 16:06:53 <Cusipzzz> lol
887 2010-12-18 16:07:04 <EvanR> that goes against the ideals of my country
888 2010-12-18 16:07:04 <wump> you can't start a country on some other country's soil
889 2010-12-18 16:07:08 <xelister> there should be a country with minimalistic law
890 2010-12-18 16:07:13 <Grantt> would be nice to have bitcoinia
891 2010-12-18 16:07:16 <xelister> that allow small countries to be created within
892 2010-12-18 16:07:18 <wump> at least not without violence
893 2010-12-18 16:07:20 <xelister> Grantt: haha bitcoinia
894 2010-12-18 16:07:26 <xelister> :)
895 2010-12-18 16:07:31 <Kiba> you need a henry ford of medicine
896 2010-12-18 16:07:40 <Kiba> who is not afraid to crush the medical cabal that exists in the state
897 2010-12-18 16:08:05 <Kiba> or is not afraid to face hundred of screaming socialists in EU
898 2010-12-18 16:08:21 <Kiba> and crush them as well
899 2010-12-18 16:08:23 <EvanR> how much does an island cost?
900 2010-12-18 16:08:29 <wump> anyway, it seems to be where the future is going, it's harder and harder for nation states to force rules on multinationals
901 2010-12-18 16:08:31 <Kiba> because saving lives is more improtant than crappy economics!
902 2010-12-18 16:09:00 <EvanR> Kiba: without lives, there IS no economics
903 2010-12-18 16:09:10 <EvanR> one exists in the context of the other
904 2010-12-18 16:09:12 <Cusipzzz> some lives are worth more than others
905 2010-12-18 16:09:14 <wump> seems like we'll have cocacola land, shell land, etc :)