1 2010-12-20 00:00:08 <Kiba> we still don't have...
  2 2010-12-20 00:00:28 <Kiba> a guideline on determine which bitcoiners is influential enough to include in the bitcoin wiki
  3 2010-12-20 00:00:30 <da2ce7> no script to automaticaly suck it from blockexplorer?
  4 2010-12-20 00:01:02 <joe_1> we can't make the same mistake as wikipedia and be deletionists.
  5 2010-12-20 00:01:25 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: would be a good idea to ask that to be included in /q
  6 2010-12-20 00:01:35 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: like "get how many coins were received by address X"
  7 2010-12-20 00:02:08 <Kiba> joe_1: meh.
  8 2010-12-20 00:02:18 <Kiba> some people logged in and post 10 posts and never to be heard from again
  9 2010-12-20 00:02:19 <slush_cz> !newpool
 10 2010-12-20 00:02:48 <Kiba> I propose at least 3 articles within bitcoin wiki mentioned a bitcoiner is sufficent enough for inclusion
 11 2010-12-20 00:02:52 <ColonelPanic1> thanks to whoever contributed to the "securing your wallet" page
 12 2010-12-20 00:03:16 <DerrikeG> !swimmingpool
 13 2010-12-20 00:03:23 <ColonelPanic1> lack of wallet encryption is a huge problem with bitcoin
 14 2010-12-20 00:03:34 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: sounds reasonnable
 15 2010-12-20 00:03:40 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: :)) this is bot command, but he is probably offline now
 16 2010-12-20 00:03:55 <ColonelPanic1> its like keeping your physical wallet on the outside of your pants
 17 2010-12-20 00:04:06 <DerrikeG> You mean you don't do that?
 18 2010-12-20 00:04:10 <ColonelPanic1> lol
 19 2010-12-20 00:04:21 <ColonelPanic1> I secure everything
 20 2010-12-20 00:04:30 <DerrikeG> What's the computer equivalent of chaining your wallet to yourself?
 21 2010-12-20 00:04:40 <Kiba> hmm
 22 2010-12-20 00:04:42 <ColonelPanic1> truecrypt
 23 2010-12-20 00:04:42 <MT`AwAy> DerrikeG: encryption, I guess
 24 2010-12-20 00:04:43 <MT`AwAy> XD
 25 2010-12-20 00:04:47 <Kiba> I would need to memorize a long password
 26 2010-12-20 00:04:51 <ColonelPanic1> yeah
 27 2010-12-20 00:04:59 <ColonelPanic1> or use biometric
 28 2010-12-20 00:05:01 <Kiba> gottach type that at least ten time
 29 2010-12-20 00:06:10 <da2ce7> or write down the password and keep it on paper in your real wallet.
 30 2010-12-20 00:06:15 <da2ce7> like I do.
 31 2010-12-20 00:06:16 <da2ce7> :P
 32 2010-12-20 00:06:17 <Kiba> who operates the bitcoin facuet?
 33 2010-12-20 00:06:19 <nanotube> slush_cz: well if your concise json output is ready, i can put it into gribble
 34 2010-12-20 00:06:24 <nanotube> Kiba: gavin
 35 2010-12-20 00:06:30 <lfm> DerrikeG: maybe like a one time code use dongle
 36 2010-12-20 00:08:35 <da2ce7> for my low-security password I just use a notepad next to my desk. :P it seems to work good enough, If sombody can get close enough to my computer to install a keylogger, then they might as well have the password to my online crap.
 37 2010-12-20 00:08:54 <da2ce7> *passwords
 38 2010-12-20 00:10:26 <DerrikeG> I keep my passwords encrypted on a detachable drive.
 39 2010-12-20 00:10:48 <slush_cz> nanotube: ten minutes sir, ten minutes
 40 2010-12-20 00:12:12 <[Noodles]> yay! another block brought to you by the pool
 41 2010-12-20 00:12:49 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: it looks it really works :-D
 42 2010-12-20 00:13:07 <[Noodles]> seems so at least
 43 2010-12-20 00:13:50 <da2ce7> yeah, it is working well!  so far i have 40 coins in my ballance at bitcoin.cz
 44 2010-12-20 00:15:06 <[Noodles]> ~22btc on balance here and another ~22btc already received
 45 2010-12-20 00:15:59 <da2ce7> yeah I've set it to send coins to me once it gets up to 100BTC
 46 2010-12-20 00:17:02 <[Noodles]> i also set it to 100 today
 47 2010-12-20 00:18:10 <DerrikeG> minerd3.0 results: c: 680, 4way: 1536, via: Doesn't work for me -- just exits, cryptopp: 580, crypptop_asm32: 860
 48 2010-12-20 00:20:09 <[Noodles]> it's 0.3, works stable for me, only using 4way anyway, been on a few hours now on 2of3 cores, running stable so far
 49 2010-12-20 00:21:06 <slush_cz> guys, new accounting is ready!
 50 2010-12-20 00:21:14 <slush_cz> all tests passed
 51 2010-12-20 00:21:53 <slush_cz> I have to stop service for a time. Yes, I'm going to fix 'treshold' issue :)
 52 2010-12-20 00:24:17 <MT`AwAy> theymos: great ;)
 53 2010-12-20 00:24:24 <da2ce7> slush_cz, Great!
 54 2010-12-20 00:25:28 <theymos> The "transactions" article was written entirely by me except for one [[link]]. What should I do about that?
 55 2010-12-20 00:25:55 <da2ce7> theymos, revert it to when it didn't have the link
 56 2010-12-20 00:26:27 <da2ce7> then add all your changes again... if the link is inportant then the other can place it back
 57 2010-12-20 00:26:54 <MT`AwAy> or just remove the link when removing fromold, then re-add the link mentionning the original contributor in the log message
 58 2010-12-20 00:28:46 <theymos> OK. I re-added it with his name in the summary.
 59 2010-12-20 00:30:16 <MT`AwAy> sounds like the most appropriate for everyone ;)
 60 2010-12-20 00:38:17 <MT`AwAy> Imagine the feeling: you find out that the comic book author of the comics you were reading when you were little also wrote porn comics with the same style...
 61 2010-12-20 00:42:57 <Kiba> I like hentai
 62 2010-12-20 00:43:10 <Kiba> like Air Gear's author?
 63 2010-12-20 00:43:12 <DerrikeG> You don't say.
 64 2010-12-20 00:43:32 <MT`AwAy> xD
 65 2010-12-20 00:43:42 <Kiba> lemonade with a bit of saltness is AWESOME
 66 2010-12-20 00:44:13 <Kiba> I wonder how hentai artists manage to complete their work?
 67 2010-12-20 00:44:46 <Kiba> do they have a zen like approach to drawing hentai?
 68 2010-12-20 00:45:33 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: want me to go & ask? :D
 69 2010-12-20 00:45:41 <DerrikeG> They apply the same formulaic setup in a different scenario.
 70 2010-12-20 00:47:17 <MT`AwAy> I'm not going to do meetups alone, but I know I won't be alone in march 2011 in Tokyo :D
 71 2010-12-20 00:47:23 <MT`AwAy> ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin:Tokyo_Meetup )
 72 2010-12-20 00:48:18 <T_X> what's the current total hash/s rate of the network?
 73 2010-12-20 00:48:30 <T_X> I could probably calculate that from the difficulty, right?
 74 2010-12-20 00:48:46 <xelister> Kiba: their order beer&bitches
 75 2010-12-20 00:48:53 <MT`AwAy> T_X: calculate that from difficulty & delay between blocks
 76 2010-12-20 00:49:29 <da2ce7> T_X, we should add that to gribble.
 77 2010-12-20 00:49:31 <Kiba> there must be some Japanese hackers who use bitcoin?
 78 2010-12-20 00:49:39 <theymos> T_X: Divide http://blockexplorer.com/q/hashestowin by http://blockexplorer.com/q/interval
 79 2010-12-20 00:49:45 <Kiba> there are some who are on Twitter that tweeted bitcoin before
 80 2010-12-20 00:49:47 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: not much according to my map
 81 2010-12-20 00:49:48 <Kiba> maybe you could ask them
 82 2010-12-20 00:49:56 <T_X> da2ce7: aggreed :)
 83 2010-12-20 00:50:03 <epicurus> is there a general bitcoin channel on freenode?
 84 2010-12-20 00:50:13 <Kiba> THIS is the general bitcoin channel on freenode
 85 2010-12-20 00:50:14 <xelister> epicurus: yes, this is the current one
 86 2010-12-20 00:50:18 <MT`AwAy> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=https://smsz.net/btcStats/bitcoin.kml
 87 2010-12-20 00:50:37 <doublec> some discussion goes on in #bitcoin-discussion
 88 2010-12-20 00:50:43 <epicurus> ok then, here's my question
 89 2010-12-20 00:52:08 <epicurus> why is the creation of bitcoins limited to those who have access to the cpu/network resources to do it
 90 2010-12-20 00:52:58 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: we had to limit bitcoin generation to something, network is required anyway (you don't do p2p with interconnecting the peers), cpu was chosen as it is difficult to fake
 91 2010-12-20 00:53:01 <theymos> Why is mining of gold limited to the people who have the resources to do it?
 92 2010-12-20 00:53:09 <Kiba> to prevent hyperinflation
 93 2010-12-20 00:53:17 <da2ce7> MT`AwAy, we need to get a favicon.ico and favicon.png for the wiki
 94 2010-12-20 00:53:19 <anarchyx> ;;bc,stats
 95 2010-12-20 00:53:22 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98475 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 308 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 19 hours, 54 minutes, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14323.64425857
 96 2010-12-20 00:53:27 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: url ?
 97 2010-12-20 00:53:39 <epicurus> theymos,  i don't think it should be, and i don't believe gold is the answer to anything
 98 2010-12-20 00:53:41 <MT`AwAy> (if you have one already)
 99 2010-12-20 00:53:46 <da2ce7> um I havn't made one yet, I make one now
100 2010-12-20 00:53:49 <MT`AwAy> (we could "steal" the one from bitcoin.org)
101 2010-12-20 00:53:51 <MT`AwAy> ok
102 2010-12-20 00:54:08 <MT`AwAy> I've got the tools to convert ico to png, however png to ico will probably not put the right formats in the icon :p
103 2010-12-20 00:54:36 <T_X> theymos: thx for the links
104 2010-12-20 00:55:32 <epicurus> MT i understand the need to limit creation somehow, but i'm not sure why people with cpu power to burn should be having a practical monopoly on bitcoin creation
105 2010-12-20 00:55:52 <epicurus> is this a technocracy?
106 2010-12-20 00:55:55 <Kiba> how would you decide who get money?
107 2010-12-20 00:55:57 <Kiba> epicurus: no.
108 2010-12-20 00:56:04 <epicurus> it seems like one
109 2010-12-20 00:56:08 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: they invested a *lot* of money to have the cpu power they use
110 2010-12-20 00:56:12 <Kiba> it's an economic one
111 2010-12-20 00:56:35 <Kiba> the developers don't lord over anyone
112 2010-12-20 00:56:39 <epicurus> MT so again those who own the means of production hold all power
113 2010-12-20 00:56:40 <Kiba> CPU miners compete with each other
114 2010-12-20 00:57:01 <Kiba> epicurus: wrong
115 2010-12-20 00:57:27 <MT`AwAy> they hold money they then sell to others, but they have no particular power
116 2010-12-20 00:57:33 <epicurus> MT what about a botnet? should that person be rewarded with bitcoins?
117 2010-12-20 00:57:45 <epicurus> the power to create money is a power
118 2010-12-20 00:57:53 <Kiba> they contribute to the strength of network, epicurus
119 2010-12-20 00:58:08 <Kiba> if we don't incentivize mining, who will? how will the network oeprate?
120 2010-12-20 00:58:20 <epicurus> contributing to the strength of a network is no justification for the network
121 2010-12-20 00:58:28 <Kiba> this is nonsense.
122 2010-12-20 00:58:34 <Kiba> you are free to accept bitcoin or walk away
123 2010-12-20 00:58:41 <Kiba> fork the network and try to compete wtih us
124 2010-12-20 00:58:46 <epicurus> Kiba,  well, thats a good question but you could add something to it
125 2010-12-20 00:58:48 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: it should be seen the same as mining gold. Yes, people did use slaves in gold mines to bring in more gold too, and they got their gold, the goal is to have a big enough network for this kind of stuff to not have any impact
126 2010-12-20 00:58:50 <Kiba> this is 100% voluntary
127 2010-12-20 00:59:07 <epicurus> Kiba,  oh i see, you reject any questions or criticism
128 2010-12-20 00:59:14 <Juan> away|lol
129 2010-12-20 00:59:17 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: if you find a better way to decide "who gets the coins", we'd love to hear about it
130 2010-12-20 00:59:21 <Kiba> no, I accept criticsms and questions...
131 2010-12-20 00:59:32 <Juan> away|epicurus : or maybe your criticism is pretty weak...
132 2010-12-20 00:59:36 <Kiba> but you're mistaken as to how power is distributed
133 2010-12-20 00:59:49 <Kiba> everyone is free to accept or reject bitcoin.
134 2010-12-20 00:59:59 <Kiba> everyone have some power.
135 2010-12-20 01:00:06 <epicurus> Juan|away,  oh yeah you are the guy who couldn't answer my questions in #economics
136 2010-12-20 01:00:17 <Juan> away|LOL
137 2010-12-20 01:00:32 <epicurus> Juan|away,  yeah talking to you about it was totally worthless, so i thought i would come here and see what others say
138 2010-12-20 01:00:34 <Keefe> to non-miners, who has how much processing power is irrelevant (except for security) as the same number of bitcoins will be generated. it's not the same as national central banks creating additional money
139 2010-12-20 01:00:38 <Kiba> the miners would have nothing if nobody use bitcoin
140 2010-12-20 01:00:53 <Kiba> the miners are at the mercy of the userbase.
141 2010-12-20 01:00:57 <Juan> away|epicurus : you know, dumb leftists never understand economics...
142 2010-12-20 01:01:00 <MT`AwAy> miners depend on the bitcoin economy, and the bitcoin economy depends on miners
143 2010-12-20 01:01:11 <Kiba> Juan|away: please refrain from ad homenin.
144 2010-12-20 01:01:31 <Kiba> or personal attack.
145 2010-12-20 01:01:35 <epicurus> Kiba,  but the power to create bitcoin is limited to those who have the necessary capital? is that right?
146 2010-12-20 01:01:48 <Kiba> epicurus: Yes. They also process transaction.
147 2010-12-20 01:01:51 <Juan> away|kiba : tell that to epicurus, thanks?
148 2010-12-20 01:02:20 <epicurus> Juan|away, i'm discussing something with serious people here. go away.
149 2010-12-20 01:02:28 <Kiba> Juan|away: we are economists, we pretend everyone is without personal flaws.
150 2010-12-20 01:02:46 <Kiba> well, I am not a professional one..but anyway
151 2010-12-20 01:02:57 <noagendamarket> isnt there a different channel for these discussions?
152 2010-12-20 01:02:58 <Juan> away|pretennd being the keyword here? =]
153 2010-12-20 01:03:00 <Kiba> epicurus: if you think that is evil, go away.
154 2010-12-20 01:03:07 <Kiba> noagendamarket: we're discussing bitcoin.
155 2010-12-20 01:03:15 <epicurus> what is evil?
156 2010-12-20 01:03:33 <Kiba> you say there is no justification for miners, correct?
157 2010-12-20 01:04:17 <epicurus> i'm asking you if cpu power should be the source of all capital in the system
158 2010-12-20 01:04:27 <Kiba> epicurus: cpu power is not the source of all capital.
159 2010-12-20 01:04:30 <Kiba> I have saving, ya know.
160 2010-12-20 01:04:35 <Kiba> Most of it doesn't come from miners.
161 2010-12-20 01:04:53 <epicurus> but to convert your savings into bitcoins requires bitcoins
162 2010-12-20 01:05:06 <Kiba> I didn't convert them, I earned them.
163 2010-12-20 01:05:13 <Kiba> on the market.
164 2010-12-20 01:05:47 <Kiba> some of them might be miners. I don't really care. I earned bitcoin. I like earning them.
165 2010-12-20 01:05:53 <epicurus> so back to the mining analogy
166 2010-12-20 01:06:08 <epicurus> in gold mining, the owner of the mine must hire miners and pay them
167 2010-12-20 01:06:22 <Kiba> Yes. What is wrong with that?
168 2010-12-20 01:06:26 <theymos> Someone was asking for a /q interface to BBE's address totals. Here you go: http://blockexplorer.com/q/getreceivedbyaddress/1Cvvr8AsCfbbVQ2xoWiFD1Gb2VRbGsEf28
169 2010-12-20 01:07:09 <epicurus> Kiba,  the limiting factor is that when the money supply is low, the gold they mine is enough to pay the miners salary and profit for the mine owner
170 2010-12-20 01:07:12 <Kiba> Juan|away: I didn't know that you were there.
171 2010-12-20 01:07:18 <theymos> (I'll probably not implement the other totals unless someone tells me a use-case, as they are usually not reliable.)
172 2010-12-20 01:07:21 <Kiba> epicurus: yes. What about it?
173 2010-12-20 01:07:23 <epicurus> but computers and robots don't get paid
174 2010-12-20 01:07:33 <Kiba> what about it?
175 2010-12-20 01:07:37 <Kiba> get to the point.
176 2010-12-20 01:07:47 <epicurus> so where is the limit with bitcoin
177 2010-12-20 01:07:54 <Kiba> what is a limit?
178 2010-12-20 01:08:22 <epicurus> to limit someone from producing as many bitcoins as they want
179 2010-12-20 01:08:31 <epicurus> with  miners, you have to pay the miners
180 2010-12-20 01:08:31 <Kiba> epicurus: what about it?
181 2010-12-20 01:08:44 <epicurus> but with cpu power, there is practically limitless idle cpu power available
182 2010-12-20 01:08:51 <Kiba> ...
183 2010-12-20 01:08:55 <Kiba> the limit is a bunch of code.
184 2010-12-20 01:09:04 <epicurus> ok
185 2010-12-20 01:09:20 <Kiba> it basically say you cannot create more than 21 million btc, period.
186 2010-12-20 01:09:31 <epicurus> right
187 2010-12-20 01:09:37 <MT`AwAy> theymos: thanks! :)
188 2010-12-20 01:09:45 <donpdonp> epicurus: as soon as there are too many miners, bitcoin moves the gold another 1000ft below the surface with the 'difficult factor'.
189 2010-12-20 01:09:57 <epicurus> i see
190 2010-12-20 01:10:10 <Kiba> this is a long and boring discussion
191 2010-12-20 01:10:30 <xelister> indeed, lets instead discuss my picture bid, that is like cpu pool mining but better ;)
192 2010-12-20 01:10:35 <achasen> I compiled the latest (r205) and am getting segfault when starting the miner
193 2010-12-20 01:10:43 <achasen> is this a known issue?
194 2010-12-20 01:11:14 <epicurus> Kiba,  so we've already decided how many bitcoins and how quickly they can be produced
195 2010-12-20 01:11:19 <achasen> specifically during a clone
196 2010-12-20 01:11:20 <epicurus> is this right?
197 2010-12-20 01:11:32 <Kiba> I didn't decide. I accept the protocol.
198 2010-12-20 01:11:50 <joe_1> cpu power has some properties that lend itself to bitcoin. a single person cannot control an arbitrarily large amount of cpu power, and this is why bitcoin works.
199 2010-12-20 01:12:07 <epicurus> joe_1,  ok, thanks for telling me
200 2010-12-20 01:12:29 <Kiba> what is your issue with it?
201 2010-12-20 01:12:46 <epicurus> i'm trying to understand the logic behind it
202 2010-12-20 01:13:01 <Kiba> good.
203 2010-12-20 01:13:18 <Kiba> but I am bored.
204 2010-12-20 01:13:30 <MT`AwAy> ?
205 2010-12-20 01:13:31 <epicurus> joe_1,  so if we have decided the number and rate of bitcoin created.... what is the mining about
206 2010-12-20 01:13:51 <Kiba> epicurus: mining secures the network.
207 2010-12-20 01:13:57 <joe_1> it's a way to do an initial assignment of bitcoin to all people
208 2010-12-20 01:14:05 <epicurus> Kiba,  from what, exactly? inflation?
209 2010-12-20 01:14:16 <epicurus> joe_1,  that's what i thought
210 2010-12-20 01:14:16 <Kiba> epicurus: double spending and fraud mostly.
211 2010-12-20 01:14:42 <epicurus> but is this a fair assignment?
212 2010-12-20 01:14:46 <joe_1> no
213 2010-12-20 01:14:51 <Kiba> yes
214 2010-12-20 01:14:53 <epicurus> no?
215 2010-12-20 01:15:04 <joe_1> but it may be the most fair assignment that can be done in a decentralized way
216 2010-12-20 01:15:11 <epicurus> ok
217 2010-12-20 01:15:16 <Kiba> You do the work, you get bitcoin.
218 2010-12-20 01:15:21 <Kiba> that's very simple.
219 2010-12-20 01:15:37 <Kiba> if you do more work, you get bitcoin.
220 2010-12-20 01:15:48 <Kiba> get more*
221 2010-12-20 01:16:03 <epicurus> it seems to me that if the total supply of bitcoins is to be 21 million... if bitcoin ever becomes the dominant monetary system, you're going to have a serious problem with divisibility
222 2010-12-20 01:16:06 <da2ce7> MT`AwAy, http://pastecoin.com/uploads/bitcoin_WikiIcon_da2ce7.rar
223 2010-12-20 01:16:11 <da2ce7> if you like it.
224 2010-12-20 01:16:21 <Kiba> epicurus: we have 8th place divisiblity.
225 2010-12-20 01:16:32 <doublec> the coin limit is the least of the problems stopping bitcoin from being the dominant monetary system
226 2010-12-20 01:16:35 <Kiba> if neccesary, we could probably expand it.
227 2010-12-20 01:16:37 <doublec> but you have to start somewhere
228 2010-12-20 01:16:39 <epicurus> Kiba,  but who actually does the work? the capitalist or the worker?
229 2010-12-20 01:16:41 <ColonelPanic1> guys
230 2010-12-20 01:16:46 <ColonelPanic1> it doesn't even matter if bitcoin fails
231 2010-12-20 01:16:53 <ColonelPanic1> the idea is out there, someone will take it and make it better
232 2010-12-20 01:16:55 <slush_cz> [pool] new accounting system online. Read forum thread if interested
233 2010-12-20 01:16:57 <Kiba> epicurus: who care? if somebody do the work, it secures the network, and possible the bitcoin economy.
234 2010-12-20 01:17:00 <epicurus> ColonelPanic1,  i agree
235 2010-12-20 01:17:08 <Kiba> I care about the results, not who do the work.
236 2010-12-20 01:17:11 <ColonelPanic1> and then all governments will collapse
237 2010-12-20 01:17:13 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: not easy to recognize in size 16
238 2010-12-20 01:17:15 <ColonelPanic1> when they can no longer tax the shit out of us
239 2010-12-20 01:17:16 <Kiba> and make possible*
240 2010-12-20 01:17:27 <ColonelPanic1> it'll be anarchy
241 2010-12-20 01:17:32 <epicurus> Kiba, work is the wrong word
242 2010-12-20 01:17:34 <Kiba> wee! anarcho-capitalism!
243 2010-12-20 01:17:37 <Kiba> epicurus: what aobut it?
244 2010-12-20 01:17:39 <Kiba> exploitation?
245 2010-12-20 01:17:42 <epicurus> Kiba,  computers are doing the work
246 2010-12-20 01:17:46 <Kiba> so?
247 2010-12-20 01:17:54 <epicurus> so a lot of people don't own a computer
248 2010-12-20 01:17:57 <Kiba> the capitalist took risk and thought he could make money off b itcoin
249 2010-12-20 01:18:13 <Kiba> the capitalist spend more, he make more.
250 2010-12-20 01:18:18 <epicurus> Kiba,  so those people are starting at a serious disadvantage
251 2010-12-20 01:18:24 <Kiba> epicurus: not at all.
252 2010-12-20 01:18:32 <da2ce7> MT`AwAy, yep, was thinking that... I'll Try another.
253 2010-12-20 01:18:51 <Kiba> if they have something to offer, they will get money
254 2010-12-20 01:18:52 <Kiba> like me.
255 2010-12-20 01:19:04 <epicurus> Kiba,  my idea of a decentralized monetary system would not limit distribution of the monetary unit to capitalists
256 2010-12-20 01:19:18 <Kiba> epicurus: but I am getting money from working my ass off bitcoin
257 2010-12-20 01:19:24 <Kiba> I am saving.
258 2010-12-20 01:19:28 <epicurus> what work are you doing?
259 2010-12-20 01:19:33 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: then how would you provide the initial funds on your system?
260 2010-12-20 01:19:35 <Kiba> I draw arts for bitcoin
261 2010-12-20 01:19:54 <Kiba> capitalists don't make money for the sake of making money, they make money to spend
262 2010-12-20 01:20:29 <Kiba> that's ultimately what money for, to exchange goods and services.
263 2010-12-20 01:20:41 <epicurus> MT in my opinion it's going to have to be a trust network of some kind, where value is monetized at the point of transaction. in other words, the buyer writes a check out of thin air and the seller chooses to accept that buyers credit or not
264 2010-12-20 01:20:47 <Kiba> I sell goods to capitalists, they give me bitcoin
265 2010-12-20 01:21:07 <Kiba> that is fair.
266 2010-12-20 01:21:16 <Kiba> I get what I wanted
267 2010-12-20 01:21:22 <Kiba> they get what they wanted
268 2010-12-20 01:21:27 <Kiba> the two parties benefit.
269 2010-12-20 01:21:30 <epicurus> MT i don't want to create a system based on the scarcity of money, i want to start a system based on the abundance of goods and services
270 2010-12-20 01:21:47 <Kiba> goods and services are scarce until they're digital.
271 2010-12-20 01:21:58 <Kiba> well..that's not the right way to say it
272 2010-12-20 01:22:02 <epicurus> Kiba,  thats why they must be monetized
273 2010-12-20 01:22:02 <Kiba> some goods are non-scarce
274 2010-12-20 01:22:18 <Kiba> epicurus: the only thing that are monentizable are scarce goods and services
275 2010-12-20 01:22:20 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: problem is people nowaday will not adopt a system and provide services and goods if it is not already working
276 2010-12-20 01:22:24 <epicurus> to create money first and then try to seek prices based on a limited money supply will not work in my opinion
277 2010-12-20 01:22:36 <Kiba> epicurus: why it does not work? the bitcoin economy is growing.
278 2010-12-20 01:22:43 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: that's an interesting idea, but it would remove the "anonymous" part which is an important part of the bitcoin system and makes secure transactions possible
279 2010-12-20 01:22:43 <x6763> epicurus: it is working as we speak
280 2010-12-20 01:22:48 <epicurus> Kiba,  because the monetary base is limited
281 2010-12-20 01:22:59 <Kiba> epicurus: why would the monentary base limited be a flaw?
282 2010-12-20 01:23:00 <epicurus> you're trading in a sandbox
283 2010-12-20 01:23:06 <Kiba> epicurus: I am not.
284 2010-12-20 01:23:14 <Kiba> I can exchange bitcoins for dollars.
285 2010-12-20 01:23:17 <epicurus> Kiba, that wasn;'t your answer. slow down.
286 2010-12-20 01:23:17 <Kiba> and dollars for bitcoin
287 2010-12-20 01:23:33 <Kiba> some goods are non-scarce. Some goods are.
288 2010-12-20 01:23:43 <Kiba> the economy can only be based on scarce goods.
289 2010-12-20 01:23:55 <Juan> away|we need inflation - the more inflation, the better - just like in zimbabwe
290 2010-12-20 01:23:58 <Kiba> because if the goods is unlimited, then it's paradise. There would be no economy.
291 2010-12-20 01:24:12 <epicurus> MT ok
292 2010-12-20 01:24:20 <Kiba> the economy is always based on scarce goods and services
293 2010-12-20 01:24:31 <x6763> if goods were unlimited, there would be no reason to trade
294 2010-12-20 01:24:37 <Kiba> x6763: that's correct.
295 2010-12-20 01:24:39 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: a system based on trust would be interesting, I wonder if there's any way to make it work right
296 2010-12-20 01:24:42 <epicurus> Kiba,  of course. but scarce money doesn't help
297 2010-12-20 01:24:49 <MT`AwAy> (ie, technically)
298 2010-12-20 01:24:50 <Kiba> epicurus: why it doesn't help?
299 2010-12-20 01:25:43 <Juan> away|what 'we' need is unlimited money - that will surely work....
300 2010-12-20 01:25:44 <Kiba> brb
301 2010-12-20 01:25:47 <epicurus> MT well i think we just make it so everyone has a personal balance of trade. this way you can't just write unlimited checks. you must keep your trade in balance for your credit to be good.
302 2010-12-20 01:25:50 <Kiba> Juan...
303 2010-12-20 01:26:10 <epicurus> Juan|away,  yes, precisely
304 2010-12-20 01:26:17 <Kiba> epicurus: why would we have a personal balance of trade? what is that?
305 2010-12-20 01:26:50 <Kiba> what if I say, my personal balance is 100000 points
306 2010-12-20 01:26:54 <Kiba> who would check me?
307 2010-12-20 01:27:13 <epicurus> Kiba,  that's your credit rating
308 2010-12-20 01:27:23 <Kiba> and what does it do? why would I want to use it over money?
309 2010-12-20 01:27:33 <epicurus> if you produce more than you consumer, you have good credit
310 2010-12-20 01:27:42 <Kiba> and how is this decided?
311 2010-12-20 01:27:45 <Juan> away|Exchange and money have nothing to do with credit - that's just another monetary misconception.
312 2010-12-20 01:27:56 <Kiba> how is the price of my art is determined?
313 2010-12-20 01:28:01 <epicurus> by credit i mean trustworthiness
314 2010-12-20 01:28:16 <Kiba> epicurus: why would I want to trust somebody if I don't have to?
315 2010-12-20 01:28:19 <epicurus> Kiba,  by what someone is willing to pay
316 2010-12-20 01:28:40 <epicurus> Kiba,  do you want to be trusted?
317 2010-12-20 01:28:47 <Kiba> how is the supply of credits is determined.
318 2010-12-20 01:28:50 <Juan> away|If I exchange an apple for an orange trustworthiness is irrelevant.
319 2010-12-20 01:29:03 <Kiba> epicurus: bitcoiners naturally forms a network of trust.
320 2010-12-20 01:29:29 <Kiba> but we don't trust when we don't have to
321 2010-12-20 01:29:59 <Kiba> You see, I have no idea what you think the problem with bitcoin is.
322 2010-12-20 01:30:05 <Kiba> it's fine for what it do.
323 2010-12-20 01:30:19 <epicurus> bitcoin is a sandbox, it's a fine sandbox
324 2010-12-20 01:30:25 <Kiba> sandbox is what?
325 2010-12-20 01:30:53 <Kiba> if I sell pizza for bitcoins, is that still sandbox?
326 2010-12-20 01:31:16 <epicurus> why not sell pizza for seashells
327 2010-12-20 01:31:27 <Kiba> and why not, indeed? Because it's inconvenient.
328 2010-12-20 01:31:42 <Juan> away|because they are not being used as money right now
329 2010-12-20 01:31:46 <epicurus> here's the problem
330 2010-12-20 01:31:46 <Kiba> it's convenient for me to sell arts for bitcoin. I don't have to trust the user for chargebacking me
331 2010-12-20 01:31:47 <Juan> away|seashells are not
332 2010-12-20 01:32:19 <epicurus> you are starting with a money you create out of nothing, and attempting to discover prices for goods and services
333 2010-12-20 01:32:46 <joe_1> epicuris: the difference between seashells and bitcoins, is that bitcoin is not an arbitrary sandbox that someone dreamed up. It is a special sandbox: it is the first cryptocurrency. And being the first makes it notable, and what people will want to use, if cryptocurrency catches on.
334 2010-12-20 01:32:47 <Kiba> yes.
335 2010-12-20 01:32:52 <epicurus> if you create the money first, you are just creating scarcity
336 2010-12-20 01:33:00 <jgarzik> it's anything but a sandbox.  exchanging for real currency is a huge driver of bitcoin value right now.  I'd argue it's exchange rate speculation rather than the implied sandbox.
337 2010-12-20 01:33:11 <epicurus> i say what needs to happen is you need to create money for each instance of value created
338 2010-12-20 01:33:15 <Kiba> epicurus: scarcity is created how?
339 2010-12-20 01:33:20 <x6763> creating money where there was none is decreasing scarcity
340 2010-12-20 01:33:25 <epicurus> Kiba,  by a limited monetary unit
341 2010-12-20 01:33:27 <Kiba> bitcoin is a form of artifical scarcity sure, but it's useful scarcity
342 2010-12-20 01:33:35 <x6763> new options for trade are now open due to this new currency
343 2010-12-20 01:33:37 <epicurus> well, i don't agree
344 2010-12-20 01:33:46 <Kiba> epicurus: well...you need to explain better
345 2010-12-20 01:33:50 <Kiba> because I don't understand.
346 2010-12-20 01:33:52 <epicurus> it's only useful for people who have bitcoins
347 2010-12-20 01:33:58 <Kiba> epicurus: so?
348 2010-12-20 01:33:58 <x6763> anyone can get bitcoins
349 2010-12-20 01:34:04 <epicurus> people who have bitcoins want to trade for real stuff
350 2010-12-20 01:34:11 <Kiba> epicurus: so?
351 2010-12-20 01:34:30 <epicurus> ok let me try this
352 2010-12-20 01:34:48 <Kiba> you better hope so.
353 2010-12-20 01:34:52 <epicurus> Kiba,  since the supply of bitcoins is limited, what do you expect to happen in the future
354 2010-12-20 01:35:00 <Kiba> deflation.
355 2010-12-20 01:35:03 <epicurus> Kiba,  theoretically prices should fall, yes
356 2010-12-20 01:35:18 <MT`AwAy> a quote I like: "Everyone knew it to be impossible. Then came someone who didn't know that and did it."
357 2010-12-20 01:35:32 <Kiba> epicurus: get to the point!
358 2010-12-20 01:35:47 <epicurus> MT so you think deflation is good for investment?
359 2010-12-20 01:35:49 <da2ce7> MT`AwAy, ok this one may be better at stupid small size:http://pastecoin.com/uploads/BCW3_da2ce7.rar
360 2010-12-20 01:35:56 <Kiba> epicurus: it's good for my saving
361 2010-12-20 01:35:58 <Kiba> I like deflation.
362 2010-12-20 01:36:09 <epicurus> oh i see. you have a bitcoin.
363 2010-12-20 01:36:09 <x6763> i prefer my money to increase in value, not decrease in value
364 2010-12-20 01:36:12 <epicurus> how nice for you.
365 2010-12-20 01:36:24 <Kiba> epicurus: good. Now move on.
366 2010-12-20 01:36:28 <epicurus> but guess what? most of the world does not have a bitcoin.
367 2010-12-20 01:36:32 <Kiba> so?
368 2010-12-20 01:36:40 <Kiba> they didn't get on bitcoin. Their fault.
369 2010-12-20 01:36:50 <epicurus> so you're trying to get rich
370 2010-12-20 01:36:56 <MT`AwAy> most of the world does not have japanese yens either, but I'm doing fine
371 2010-12-20 01:36:58 <epicurus> you aren't looking at a solution to the problem of money
372 2010-12-20 01:36:58 <Kiba> epicurus: what's wrong wtih getting rich?
373 2010-12-20 01:37:08 <Kiba> what is the problem of money?
374 2010-12-20 01:37:24 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: ok, let's try it
375 2010-12-20 01:37:41 <epicurus> Kiba,  look around. the world financial system is a mess.
376 2010-12-20 01:37:50 <Kiba> epicurus: what is the problem of money?
377 2010-12-20 01:37:51 <epicurus> Kiba,  peoples savings is evaporating
378 2010-12-20 01:38:02 <Kiba> epicurus: and deflation increase the value of people's saving.
379 2010-12-20 01:38:12 <Juan> away|peoples savings is evaporating <--solution? why, inflation!!!
380 2010-12-20 01:38:17 <epicurus> Kiba,  the problem IS, a small group of people has a monopoly on money creation
381 2010-12-20 01:38:25 <epicurus> Kiba,  same as you are trying to do
382 2010-12-20 01:38:36 <Kiba> epicurus: there can only be 21 million bitcoins.
383 2010-12-20 01:38:49 <Kiba> I don't see the problem of saving evaporation.
384 2010-12-20 01:38:53 <epicurus> it doesn't matter how few, the question is distribution
385 2010-12-20 01:38:54 <Kiba> and I don't create money.
386 2010-12-20 01:39:07 <Kiba> epicurus: what distribution do you like?
387 2010-12-20 01:39:14 <epicurus> i told you
388 2010-12-20 01:39:20 <Kiba> what distribution do you like?
389 2010-12-20 01:39:28 <epicurus> it is retarded to try to create money out of nothing and then assign a value to it
390 2010-12-20 01:39:28 <Kiba> tell me, explictly. Don't implie.
391 2010-12-20 01:39:43 <Kiba> epicurus: answer the question.
392 2010-12-20 01:40:06 <epicurus> Kiba,  no distribution at all and no arbitrary money creation by a central power
393 2010-12-20 01:40:08 <da2ce7> epicurus, it isn't out of nothing, it is out of the work that is required to make the chain secure.
394 2010-12-20 01:40:08 <Juan> away|the financial system is a mess because there are people who think that creating money out of thin air is harmless
395 2010-12-20 01:40:10 <Kiba> I am not the smartest person at all.
396 2010-12-20 01:40:22 <epicurus> Kiba,  total decentralization of money is the distribution i favor
397 2010-12-20 01:40:27 <Kiba> epicurus: no distribution at all. WHat does that mean?
398 2010-12-20 01:40:29 <epicurus> monetization of value at the point of transaction
399 2010-12-20 01:40:33 <Kiba> epicurus: but bitcoin is decentralized?
400 2010-12-20 01:40:41 <Kiba> miners have to compete for their share.
401 2010-12-20 01:40:43 <epicurus> it's only decentralized in its function
402 2010-12-20 01:40:51 <epicurus> it is not decentralized in its creation
403 2010-12-20 01:41:16 <Kiba> epicurus: what problems does "centralized" creation create?
404 2010-12-20 01:41:19 <slush_cz> epicurus: I was using bitcoin months ago than I started with mining
405 2010-12-20 01:41:20 <Juan> away|so there's only one guy creating all the bitcoins?
406 2010-12-20 01:41:21 <da2ce7> as is anything... If something was absolutely decentralized, it would have no realtionsip with anything els.
407 2010-12-20 01:41:25 <Kiba> you say people's saving is evaporating
408 2010-12-20 01:41:31 <DerrikeG> It is distributed "fairly", it is of limited quantity, it can't easily be lost/destroyed/stolen. It's pretty groundbreaking to have verified permanence of a digital entity in itself.
409 2010-12-20 01:41:46 <epicurus> slush_cz, ok, and?
410 2010-12-20 01:42:00 <slush_cz> epicurus: I don't need to be miner to have bitcoins
411 2010-12-20 01:42:08 <Kiba> epicurus: what is the problem you're talking about.
412 2010-12-20 01:42:16 <Kiba> you're saying the financial system is a mess. Right?
413 2010-12-20 01:42:24 <Kiba> then you say something about people's saving is evaporating.
414 2010-12-20 01:42:27 <epicurus> Kiba,  there are many problems
415 2010-12-20 01:42:28 <Kiba> is that correct?
416 2010-12-20 01:42:42 <Kiba> epicurus: what kind of other problems you think there is in money?
417 2010-12-20 01:42:55 <epicurus> Kiba,  yes, the central banks and their associated bank members have a monopoly on credit and money creation
418 2010-12-20 01:43:01 <joe_1> the current distribution method is nearly optimal given the objectives of bitcoin, which is to be anonymous and decentralized.
419 2010-12-20 01:43:06 <epicurus> Kiba,  through that they rule the world. you didn't know?
420 2010-12-20 01:43:14 <Kiba> epicurus: and what effects does it have on the economy?
421 2010-12-20 01:43:22 <epicurus> they buy your government, they buy your media
422 2010-12-20 01:43:24 <joe_1> Once initial distribution is complete, the only flow of money to miners will be through transaction fees, which will be driven by market forces.
423 2010-12-20 01:43:30 <Juan> away|"monopoly on credit "<---isn't credit the same thing as 'trustworthiness' - how can they have a monopoly on that?
424 2010-12-20 01:43:33 <slush_cz> epicurus: If you think bitcoins are centralized, what about central banks and printing money?
425 2010-12-20 01:43:35 <Kiba> epicurus: the government is ruled by democracy. Democracy is evil.
426 2010-12-20 01:43:44 <ne0futur> OT : thousand million dollars of the US taxpayer to overthrow a democracy
427 2010-12-20 01:43:48 <ne0futur> R.T #Wikileaks: Documents Confirm US Plans Against Venezuela. http://bit.ly/ftrKs9
428 2010-12-20 01:43:49 <epicurus> Kiba,  right now the effect is that a tiny minority is sucking up all the wealth and the other 95% is getting poorer
429 2010-12-20 01:44:03 <Kiba> epicurus: clearly if you save your bitcoin, you will get richer.
430 2010-12-20 01:44:06 <Kiba> do you hate saving?
431 2010-12-20 01:44:12 <epicurus> slush_cz,  clearly i am saying they are centralized too. and bitcoin is not solving that problem.
432 2010-12-20 01:44:14 <ne0futur> Kiba: democracy is now an illusion
433 2010-12-20 01:44:22 <Kiba> ne0futur: democracy is still true as ever.
434 2010-12-20 01:44:30 <Kiba> the only problem is that people think democracy is an illusion. It is not.
435 2010-12-20 01:44:40 <Kiba> It is two wolves and one chicken deciding what to eat for dinner.
436 2010-12-20 01:44:42 <epicurus> but lets say people adopt bitcoin... when deflation comes, each bitcoin must be divided into smaller and smaller pieces
437 2010-12-20 01:44:54 <ne0futur> its is not in switzerland where people vote for real things
438 2010-12-20 01:45:01 <Kiba> like what?
439 2010-12-20 01:45:06 <ne0futur> it is an illusion in any other country
440 2010-12-20 01:45:20 <ne0futur> they vote for abortion or against pot prohibition for example
441 2010-12-20 01:45:42 <Kiba> ne0futur: Californian voted for pot prohibition.
442 2010-12-20 01:45:44 <epicurus> democracy can work but usually doesn't
443 2010-12-20 01:45:48 <x6763> epicurus: bitcoins are divisible into more units than any other money in existence
444 2010-12-20 01:45:54 <ne0futur> in other countries you re just choosing between a lier and a bitch
445 2010-12-20 01:46:02 <ne0futur> and anyway they ll do nearly the same things
446 2010-12-20 01:46:03 <x6763> (except maybe zimbabwees)
447 2010-12-20 01:46:06 <epicurus> x6763,  if they aren't infinitely divisible it won't work
448 2010-12-20 01:46:07 <MT`AwAy> :D
449 2010-12-20 01:46:12 <DerrikeG> poor zimbabwe
450 2010-12-20 01:46:21 <Kiba> epicurus: it's divisble to the 8th place..and more...eventually
451 2010-12-20 01:46:28 <epicurus> that's not enough
452 2010-12-20 01:46:28 <Kiba> I don't see the problem of someone being rich.
453 2010-12-20 01:46:36 <epicurus> Kiba,  divide all the wealth of the world by 21,000,000
454 2010-12-20 01:46:36 <Kiba> You clearly have problems with people being rich.
455 2010-12-20 01:46:38 <x6763> epicurus: the money supply does not need to grow
456 2010-12-20 01:46:40 <epicurus> Kiba,  tell me the answer
457 2010-12-20 01:46:41 <Kiba> epicurus: so?
458 2010-12-20 01:46:43 <joe_1> epicuris, the system is set up to be able to handle higher levels of precision. some small "one-line" code change will be needed to allow it, by my understanding.
459 2010-12-20 01:46:44 <DerrikeG> epicurus: I would like to see you obtain a fraction of a penny.
460 2010-12-20 01:46:44 <Kiba> it's small.
461 2010-12-20 01:46:46 <Kiba> so what.
462 2010-12-20 01:46:58 <da2ce7> epicurus, how much is enougth?
463 2010-12-20 01:46:59 <Kiba> what's the big issue here?
464 2010-12-20 01:47:04 <epicurus> DerrikeG, i would simply create a new penny as needed
465 2010-12-20 01:47:14 <MT`AwAy> 21000000 is in fact 2100000000000000
466 2010-12-20 01:47:18 <DerrikeG> epicurus: Isn't that illegal?
467 2010-12-20 01:47:21 <Kiba> epicurus: so you hate rich people.
468 2010-12-20 01:47:22 <x6763> epicurus: then you're no better than the Federal Reserve, creating money at a whim
469 2010-12-20 01:47:39 <Kiba> epicurus hates rich people!
470 2010-12-20 01:47:41 <x6763> hurting everyone's savings
471 2010-12-20 01:47:45 <epicurus> da2ce7,  i don't know. what is the value of the entire world economy? divide that by 21,000,000/ and don't forget to account for expansion and growth
472 2010-12-20 01:47:55 <epicurus> Kiba,  i
473 2010-12-20 01:48:02 <da2ce7> nothing wrong about being rich, it just means that people owe you lots of good-will.
474 2010-12-20 01:48:03 <da2ce7> :D
475 2010-12-20 01:48:05 <epicurus> Kiba,  i am going to have to put you on ignore. you're a troll.
476 2010-12-20 01:48:16 <Kiba> GOSH, I AM A TROLL!
477 2010-12-20 01:48:21 <x6763> haha, Kiba's not a troll
478 2010-12-20 01:48:27 <sgornick> epicurus: Feel free to create a parallel bitcoin, mint all 21,000,000, then distribute equally.
479 2010-12-20 01:48:29 <theymos> Another new real-time stats page: http://blockexplorer.com/q/addressfirstseen
480 2010-12-20 01:48:30 <da2ce7> lol epicurus, I was thinking the same about you
481 2010-12-20 01:48:45 <Kiba> epicurus: do you hate rich people or not?
482 2010-12-20 01:48:48 <Juan> away|Kiba : there you go - either believe in proudhon's revealed word or you  are a troll....
483 2010-12-20 01:48:52 <Kiba> oh right, epicurus is ignoring me.
484 2010-12-20 01:49:07 <epicurus> Kiba,  you tell me. you're making this story up as you go along.
485 2010-12-20 01:49:16 <Kiba> I am making stories up?
486 2010-12-20 01:49:26 <Kiba> did I make any stories up?
487 2010-12-20 01:49:29 <da2ce7> Kiba, don't feed the troll.
488 2010-12-20 01:49:29 <epicurus> you claim to read my mind
489 2010-12-20 01:49:40 <Kiba> epicurus: I didn't claim to read your mind.
490 2010-12-20 01:49:44 <Kiba> I was trying to guess your mind.
491 2010-12-20 01:49:50 <epicurus> you told us all what i think about the rich
492 2010-12-20 01:50:08 <Kiba> yes. ANd you didn't choose to deny it or not.
493 2010-12-20 01:50:16 <Kiba> you just say I am a troll.
494 2010-12-20 01:50:22 <epicurus> it's not worth responding to
495 2010-12-20 01:50:25 <epicurus> you are
496 2010-12-20 01:50:37 <epicurus> that's what trolls do
497 2010-12-20 01:50:49 <epicurus> they make shit up about people
498 2010-12-20 01:50:56 <Kiba> ah come on, trolls are often distinguisable to true believers.
499 2010-12-20 01:51:05 <Kiba> look, I believed you are a communist. Pure and simple.
500 2010-12-20 01:51:19 <epicurus> but look Kiba
501 2010-12-20 01:51:21 <Kiba> the way you say things make me believed you are a communist.
502 2010-12-20 01:51:22 <epicurus> here's what i'm saying
503 2010-12-20 01:51:39 <epicurus> Kiba,  if you aren't trying to create a system that can work for everyone, you are just creating another problem
504 2010-12-20 01:51:47 <epicurus> so play in your sandbox
505 2010-12-20 01:51:55 <epicurus> you can trade with other bitcoin people
506 2010-12-20 01:51:58 <Kiba> I didn't create the system
507 2010-12-20 01:52:00 <Kiba> satoshi does.
508 2010-12-20 01:52:08 <epicurus> ok
509 2010-12-20 01:52:10 <da2ce7> our sandbox will get bigger and bigger faster than yours.
510 2010-12-20 01:52:11 <da2ce7> :D
511 2010-12-20 01:52:19 <epicurus> so it's just your religion
512 2010-12-20 01:52:23 <Kiba> epicurus: look, I been trying to understand you for the past 30 minutes.
513 2010-12-20 01:52:25 <epicurus> you don't really know what you're doing
514 2010-12-20 01:52:30 <Kiba> I asked a lot of question
515 2010-12-20 01:52:36 <Kiba> but I am not getting clear reception.
516 2010-12-20 01:52:44 <da2ce7> we have a sustained groth of _AT LEAST_ 37% p.a. atm
517 2010-12-20 01:52:44 <epicurus> you don't listen
518 2010-12-20 01:52:55 <Kiba> epicurus: listen is not the same thing as understanding.
519 2010-12-20 01:53:01 <Kiba> I don't understand.
520 2010-12-20 01:53:05 <epicurus> da2ce7,  by what metric "growth"?
521 2010-12-20 01:53:20 <epicurus> Kiba,  ok let me ask you some questions now
522 2010-12-20 01:53:24 <da2ce7> ah, increasing of size of the bitcoin economy.
523 2010-12-20 01:53:27 <epicurus> Kiba,  what is the purpose of bitcoin?
524 2010-12-20 01:53:42 <jgarzik> Version 0.3.1 of cpuminer released.  Changes:
525 2010-12-20 01:53:44 <Kiba> epicurus: what is the purpose, according to who?
526 2010-12-20 01:53:46 <epicurus> da2ce7,  measured in what? dollars?
527 2010-12-20 01:53:48 <Kiba> there's a purpose for bitcoin for me.
528 2010-12-20 01:53:54 <epicurus> Kiba,  you, of course
529 2010-12-20 01:53:54 <Kiba> monentary freedom.
530 2010-12-20 01:54:03 <epicurus> define monetary freedom
531 2010-12-20 01:54:05 <da2ce7> percentage, p.a.
532 2010-12-20 01:54:09 <Kiba> freedom to use any kind of money I wanted.
533 2010-12-20 01:54:27 <Kiba> whether that is seashell, bitcoiners, or fiat money, or gold.
534 2010-12-20 01:54:39 <Kiba> s/bitcoiners/bitcoins
535 2010-12-20 01:55:06 <epicurus> Kiba,  that's fine. but i'm concerned mostly with what kind of monetary system will unlock the potential of people and the world economy
536 2010-12-20 01:55:18 <Kiba> I think bitcoin can do that.
537 2010-12-20 01:55:47 <Kiba> but economic freedom will find the best kidn of money in the long run. Bitcoin could fail. But the hope is, it will create and open a new market for money.
538 2010-12-20 01:55:50 <Kiba> that is what I like.
539 2010-12-20 01:56:10 <epicurus> Kiba, well, i'm not convinced that a system with a limited money supply concentrated in the hands of a few can really do that
540 2010-12-20 01:56:28 <Kiba> epicurus: than make your own money and do that. We bitcoiners don't undertand you. Prove us wrong.
541 2010-12-20 01:56:31 <Kiba> or go away.
542 2010-12-20 01:57:01 <epicurus> ok, but you sound like a cult member when you say that
543 2010-12-20 01:57:05 <[Noodles]> join the few, open your hands and get your share, there's still some coins left to find
544 2010-12-20 01:57:06 <Kiba> no.
545 2010-12-20 01:57:18 <Kiba> a cult member wouldn't be so open to competition.
546 2010-12-20 01:57:27 <epicurus> Kiba,  i'm not saying bitcoin can't or doesn't work. i'm saying it doesn't do what i want to do.
547 2010-12-20 01:57:40 <epicurus> what i want IT to do
548 2010-12-20 01:57:41 <Kiba> epicurus: than prove us wrong
549 2010-12-20 01:57:44 <da2ce7> then don't use it
550 2010-12-20 01:57:49 <Kiba> exactly.
551 2010-12-20 01:57:56 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: and we're saying what you want to do is not compatible with bitcoin
552 2010-12-20 01:57:59 <epicurus> i didn't come here to ask you if i should use it
553 2010-12-20 01:58:19 <epicurus> i'm trying to find out what you think the future and goal of bitcoin is
554 2010-12-20 01:58:21 <[Noodles]> what is it that you want todo?
555 2010-12-20 01:58:40 <Kiba> epicurus: Ask Satoshi. We have little understanding of what he's trying to do.
556 2010-12-20 01:59:01 <Kiba> I think most bitcoinrs think Satoshi have the same goal as them...
557 2010-12-20 01:59:07 <epicurus> [Noodles],  basically i think scarcity of money is archaic... i want money to be created on the fly as needed, to accomodate economic growth
558 2010-12-20 01:59:10 <epicurus> BUT
559 2010-12-20 01:59:21 <epicurus> it must be decentralized, so no government or corporation can control that
560 2010-12-20 01:59:31 <Kiba> yes. And go away.
561 2010-12-20 01:59:32 <epicurus> THAT is my goal
562 2010-12-20 01:59:35 <[Noodles]> if money can be created on-the-fly, what's it worth?
563 2010-12-20 01:59:40 <Kiba> 0.
564 2010-12-20 01:59:50 <epicurus> [Noodles],  money is never worth anything
565 2010-12-20 01:59:58 <epicurus> what money buys is worth something
566 2010-12-20 02:00:05 <da2ce7> your goal isn't possible, something must be agreed to have value, to have value.
567 2010-12-20 02:00:22 <Kiba> money is worth something.
568 2010-12-20 02:00:22 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: this idea is interesting, however it cannot work at all over a network, can only be used in communities where everyone's identity is known and trusted
569 2010-12-20 02:00:23 <Kiba> it's a good in itself.
570 2010-12-20 02:00:29 <epicurus> no. money is completely worthless without something to trade for
571 2010-12-20 02:00:33 <da2ce7> you cannont creat something and expect it to have value if only you make it.
572 2010-12-20 02:00:35 <epicurus> you cannot buy what is not for sale.
573 2010-12-20 02:00:36 <Kiba> it's a good in itself.
574 2010-12-20 02:00:43 <Kiba> money does what money does.
575 2010-12-20 02:00:52 <da2ce7> but I beleve that epicurus is a troll.
576 2010-12-20 02:01:03 <epicurus> da2ce7,  why?
577 2010-12-20 02:01:04 <Kiba> da2ce7: true believers are indistinguisable from troll.
578 2010-12-20 02:01:19 <Juan> away|well, epicurus is the typical money crank...
579 2010-12-20 02:01:30 <Kiba> Juan|away: I think he is....
580 2010-12-20 02:01:40 <epicurus> Juan|away,  which means what, exactly?
581 2010-12-20 02:01:43 <Kiba> but we are called money crank too.
582 2010-12-20 02:01:50 <Kiba> epicurus: it means you're full of bullshit.
583 2010-12-20 02:02:04 <[Noodles]> you can not create something of value, that has no value, how would you do that? and what would you buy with that created something that has no value? who would sell anything for it and why? to lose value, by giving you goods for nothing?
584 2010-12-20 02:02:07 <Juan> away|epicurus : that you don't understand money and think that 'unlimited' money is the answer.
585 2010-12-20 02:02:12 <epicurus> Kiba,  i don't think you even know what you're talking about, at all.
586 2010-12-20 02:02:23 <Juan> away|Juan|away : you also ignore all criticism to your 'theory'
587 2010-12-20 02:02:31 <epicurus> yes
588 2010-12-20 02:02:40 <Kiba> epicurus: Oh please. just because you're calling us money crank doesn't mean we're money crank.
589 2010-12-20 02:02:52 <epicurus> i'm not calling you anything
590 2010-12-20 02:03:00 <Kiba> money crank means you're full of bullshit about money.
591 2010-12-20 02:03:02 <epicurus> stop acting like a scientologist
592 2010-12-20 02:03:24 <Kiba> epicurus: Austrians are called money cranks too. It's just an insult.
593 2010-12-20 02:03:26 <da2ce7> epicurus I think that you should go to: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2155.0  and do some study
594 2010-12-20 02:03:36 <da2ce7> you can ask questions here if you get stuck
595 2010-12-20 02:03:45 <Kiba> surely you can understand the meaning of an insult.
596 2010-12-20 02:04:02 <epicurus> da2ce7,  yes, i agree, and i will study it further. but i didn't come here to prove anyone wrong.
597 2010-12-20 02:04:09 <noagendamarket> the fed creates money on the fly...hows that turning out for you?
598 2010-12-20 02:04:19 <x6763> epicurus: maybe you should visit mises.org and download some books from their huge library of free books
599 2010-12-20 02:04:29 <Kiba> epicurus: for the last 30 minutes I been trying to acheive understanding
600 2010-12-20 02:04:32 <epicurus> noagendamarket, but the fed has a monopoly on money creation, and they abuse it
601 2010-12-20 02:04:32 <Kiba> and I get nothing.
602 2010-12-20 02:04:37 <MT`AwAy> noagendamarket: banks too I guess
603 2010-12-20 02:04:51 <Kiba> there's all sort of check and balance.
604 2010-12-20 02:04:57 <epicurus> noagendamarket,  if you had listened to me, you would know that i advocate a decentralized system untouchable by government or corporate
605 2010-12-20 02:05:00 <noagendamarket> epicurus and you wouldnt right?
606 2010-12-20 02:05:01 <Juan> away|epicurus : and money creation by ppl 'writing checks' is not a workable system.
607 2010-12-20 02:05:02 <noagendamarket> hahahaha
608 2010-12-20 02:05:14 <Kiba> Satoshi knew that if we tries to make one bitcoin more in the money supply, his project would get forked and nbody would trust him.
609 2010-12-20 02:05:22 <epicurus> so lets's be clear
610 2010-12-20 02:05:33 <epicurus> bitcoin is not trying to create a working monetary system for the world
611 2010-12-20 02:05:42 <[Noodles]> of course not
612 2010-12-20 02:05:57 <Kiba> we're about achviening economic freedom; at least some of us.
613 2010-12-20 02:06:05 <Kiba> Satoshi's goal could be that. It seem to be.
614 2010-12-20 02:06:08 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: bitcoin is trying to create an alternative money system for people using bitcoin
615 2010-12-20 02:06:16 <epicurus> bitcoin is a game for people who think they can get rich..., like Kiba , or sandbox players who want to play in an underground economy but with no hope of scaling up
616 2010-12-20 02:06:20 <epicurus> and that;s fine
617 2010-12-20 02:06:23 <Kiba> epicurus: it's not a game.
618 2010-12-20 02:06:24 <epicurus> it is what it is
619 2010-12-20 02:06:34 <MT`AwAy> creating a working monetary system for the world is not something that can be done by a few thousand peopel
620 2010-12-20 02:06:35 <Kiba> it's real. I sell arts for bitcoin. It's not a game.
621 2010-12-20 02:06:46 <Kiba> just becuase I am trying to get rich doesn't mean it isn't a game.
622 2010-12-20 02:06:55 <ColonelPanic1> life is a chess game
623 2010-12-20 02:06:56 <theymos> It seems to me that Satoshi's goal was to create a new, innovative P2P network. I don't think his main goal was economic freedom, thoguh he is a libertarian.
624 2010-12-20 02:07:00 <ColonelPanic1> make the right moves with the right pieces
625 2010-12-20 02:07:04 <da2ce7> lol, it is a game, but it just happens that this game is very proffitable... normaly a symptiom of it being a good game to play.
626 2010-12-20 02:07:11 <ColonelPanic1> understand what every piece does and where it's useful to you
627 2010-12-20 02:07:12 <epicurus> it's a real game, and the coin is a monopoly of the people making the rules, same as the fed
628 2010-12-20 02:07:13 <ColonelPanic1> and you will pwn at life
629 2010-12-20 02:07:34 <[Noodles]> i dont think i'm getting rich, but i think i might save a lot more than on current banking-systems of any kind, that's why i keep investing in bitcoin, instead of feeding fat bankers asses
630 2010-12-20 02:07:38 <epicurus> ColonelPanic1,  that's a fine philosophy, nothing wrong with it
631 2010-12-20 02:07:40 <Kiba> epicurus: there is no monopoly. WE can't enforce our monopoly. It is based on each user who is introduced bitcoin whether or not to accept bitcoin.
632 2010-12-20 02:07:58 <epicurus> Kiba,  but the early adopter has the advantage
633 2010-12-20 02:08:10 <da2ce7> epicurus you are welcome to pay, but if you break the rules, we will not accept you.
634 2010-12-20 02:08:11 <Kiba> epicurus: the early adopter also have the disadvantage
635 2010-12-20 02:08:14 <Kiba> if this currency failed
636 2010-12-20 02:08:19 <Kiba> WE ARE SCREWED
637 2010-12-20 02:08:20 <epicurus> the technologically disadvantaged will be left behind
638 2010-12-20 02:08:21 <ColonelPanic1> epicurus: I'm glad you think so, some people think it's rather cold
639 2010-12-20 02:08:27 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: the early adopters are betting on the concept, they take huge risks
640 2010-12-20 02:08:31 <Kiba> epicurus: than solve the technological divide.
641 2010-12-20 02:08:40 <epicurus> MT what is the risk?
642 2010-12-20 02:08:40 <joe_1> I disagree, my goal for bitcoin is for it to become a leading world money. I recognize the non-optimal-ness of the initial distribution, which epicuris pointed out, however, if others understand that the currency was designed, implemented, and distributed in a good-faith way, and there was no better way, they will accept it.
643 2010-12-20 02:08:46 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: leave the technologically disavantaged get food before you impose them a new monetary system
644 2010-12-20 02:08:52 <da2ce7> or just pay for some sex with your bitcoins, that could make you happy also
645 2010-12-20 02:08:53 <[Noodles]> noones left behind, nbitcoin is not about generating money, it's about "using cash online"
646 2010-12-20 02:09:05 <epicurus> MT i would hope a fair system would help them get food
647 2010-12-20 02:09:11 <ColonelPanic1> joe_1: bitcoin might not become that currency, but some anonymous digital p2p cryptocurrency will, it's the way of the future, I can see it
648 2010-12-20 02:09:11 <noagendamarket> da2ce7 lol
649 2010-12-20 02:09:21 <noagendamarket> hookers4bitcoin
650 2010-12-20 02:09:25 <da2ce7> :D
651 2010-12-20 02:09:27 <epicurus> joe_1,  thanks
652 2010-12-20 02:09:33 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: they have nothing the rest of the world would accept to exchange, thru they'd get no currency, and no more food
653 2010-12-20 02:09:35 <Kiba> blah, it's hard to not called epicurus a money crank.
654 2010-12-20 02:09:42 <epicurus> joe_1 understands something
655 2010-12-20 02:09:44 <donpdonp> ColonelPanic1: yes it seems inevitable. even if bitcoin is not it, it has certainly helped blaze the trail for future currencies
656 2010-12-20 02:10:13 <noagendamarket> bitcoin is ope source so anyone can setup their own chain
657 2010-12-20 02:10:19 <Kiba> meanwhile, we got some work to do to expand the bitcoin economy
658 2010-12-20 02:10:30 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: anyway money is not a source of fairness, it has never been and will probably never be
659 2010-12-20 02:10:35 <epicurus> joe_1,  still, even if they accept it,  i don't think it can scale up to the goal you and i have
660 2010-12-20 02:10:37 <noagendamarket> maybe satoshi thought walmart would have their own block chain
661 2010-12-20 02:10:42 <da2ce7> yeah, we gotta maintain this insane rate of 37% p.a.
662 2010-12-20 02:10:42 <noagendamarket> lol
663 2010-12-20 02:10:43 <da2ce7> :D
664 2010-12-20 02:10:44 <Kiba> Life is unfair.
665 2010-12-20 02:10:54 <Kiba> but I wanna get rich!
666 2010-12-20 02:10:59 <Kiba> who's with me?
667 2010-12-20 02:11:06 <da2ce7> yep, I'm in
668 2010-12-20 02:11:13 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: I'm against you ;) wanna get rich too :p
669 2010-12-20 02:11:14 <ColonelPanic1> donpdonp: blaze the trail, lol
670 2010-12-20 02:11:38 <Kiba> Murray Rothbard actually have a dedication to libertarians in his MES book
671 2010-12-20 02:11:44 <da2ce7> but, I'm gonna get rich by helping people, throogh trade.
672 2010-12-20 02:11:50 <Kiba> Libertarians of the Past
673 2010-12-20 02:11:54 <Kiba> who Blazed the Trail
674 2010-12-20 02:11:55 <Kiba> and to
675 2010-12-20 02:12:02 <Kiba> Libetarians of the FUture, who Shall Overcome
676 2010-12-20 02:12:10 <epicurus> joe_1,  i think there might be better ways to start an initial distribution
677 2010-12-20 02:12:14 <Kiba> that us :D
678 2010-12-20 02:12:23 <Kiba> epicurus: go implement it instead of crying to us about it
679 2010-12-20 02:12:41 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: would you mind writing a paper about that?
680 2010-12-20 02:12:46 <da2ce7> epicurus, 50BTC are up for grabs, write a great Encyclope Diadramatica article, if you wish!
681 2010-12-20 02:12:46 <x6763> epicurus: do you have any economic background at all?
682 2010-12-20 02:12:54 <achasen> segfault is happening in     SetThreadPriority(THREAD_PRIORITY_LOWEST); in my miner, any ideas?
683 2010-12-20 02:12:55 <epicurus> if you are defining the number of coins and the rate of creation, it seems fairly pointless to me to engage in some sort of parallel computing operation. just create your damn coins.
684 2010-12-20 02:13:02 <Kiba> and achasenneeds help
685 2010-12-20 02:13:10 <Kiba> epicurus: and go away.
686 2010-12-20 02:13:19 <epicurus> Kiba,  it's no crying. you're just a bitch who can't tolerate any criticism of your jesus.
687 2010-12-20 02:13:19 <Kiba> and do your own thing
688 2010-12-20 02:13:20 <Kiba> prove us wrong
689 2010-12-20 02:13:34 <[Noodles]> and how to distribute those coins? who owns them?
690 2010-12-20 02:13:36 <Kiba> epicurus: no, I am telling you to compete on the market
691 2010-12-20 02:13:38 <achasen> or around there
692 2010-12-20 02:13:44 <Kiba> instead of endlessly sending words that DOES NOTHING
693 2010-12-20 02:13:46 <epicurus> you're an annoying prick.
694 2010-12-20 02:13:59 <achasen> this sounds like a conversation that should be happening in general bitcoin channel
695 2010-12-20 02:13:59 <MT`AwAy> [Noodles]: in epicurus system, people create coins, and trust in the coin creator define the coin value
696 2010-12-20 02:14:00 <da2ce7> we will reside in the world that uses bitcoin, you can live in the world that dosn't, Just our world is heathy and growing.
697 2010-12-20 02:14:04 <Kiba> prove it or GTFO
698 2010-12-20 02:14:11 <Kiba> achasen: THIS is the general bitcoin channel
699 2010-12-20 02:14:14 <MT`AwAy> (if I understood well)
700 2010-12-20 02:14:16 <epicurus> MT no, the market still determines the price
701 2010-12-20 02:14:34 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: so you'd have one market per coin emitter ?
702 2010-12-20 02:14:43 <Kiba> if you can prove that your system can function, maybe we will actulaly change our mind?
703 2010-12-20 02:14:58 <achasen> heh, no #bitcoin, right... but there is -discussion
704 2010-12-20 02:15:01 <sgornick> kiba: I think acahasen meant the #bitcoin-discussioin channel?
705 2010-12-20 02:15:09 <epicurus> MT no, values of things are all relative. if everyone maintains their balance of trade, they won't want to overpay, and sellers won't want to undercharge
706 2010-12-20 02:15:10 <Kiba> sgornick: but nobody goes there.
707 2010-12-20 02:15:25 <Kiba> values is determined by marginal utility.
708 2010-12-20 02:15:37 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: the main problem I see there is how to avoid common frauds to happen (identity thieves, people assuming they'll be able to pay for a service but can't, etc)
709 2010-12-20 02:15:38 <epicurus> Kiba,  function is relative. the system we have now functions, poorly.
710 2010-12-20 02:16:00 <Kiba> epicurus: yes, and I don't understand what's the problem you're trying to solve.
711 2010-12-20 02:16:09 <doublec> Kiba, plenty of discussion goes on in #bitcoin-discussion
712 2010-12-20 02:16:18 <theymos> In a 4-8 years block subsidy won't even be a big factor.
713 2010-12-20 02:17:11 <Kiba> I happily concede ground, but not to poorly reasoned arguments.
714 2010-12-20 02:17:55 <Kiba> and sometime if you can't convince me by words, you convince me by code.
715 2010-12-20 02:18:23 <Kiba> so code or GTFO
716 2010-12-20 02:18:31 <epicurus> MT there are many problems. i am simply trying to proceed from the ideal of an economy not to be limited by centralized control of the money supply... so that the productive power of people is not limited. i want to maximize innovation and remove the limits of centralized control... the monetary unit is not our goal, our goal is an improved standard of living
717 2010-12-20 02:18:53 <Kiba> epicurus: everyone is interested in a higher standard of living
718 2010-12-20 02:19:03 <Kiba> in this channel, I hope.
719 2010-12-20 02:19:04 <epicurus> i know that
720 2010-12-20 02:19:09 <epicurus> that's why i proceed from that
721 2010-12-20 02:19:15 <Kiba> then go code.
722 2010-12-20 02:19:19 <Kiba> clearly words isn't working.
723 2010-12-20 02:19:30 <epicurus> i'm sorry you don't want to discuss it.
724 2010-12-20 02:19:40 <epicurus> that's your problem.
725 2010-12-20 02:19:41 <Juan> away|fallacy #1 : a limited money supply makes ppl less productive
726 2010-12-20 02:19:44 <Kiba> because I already gave up on that discussion.
727 2010-12-20 02:19:56 <epicurus> Kiba,  then shut the fuck up and stop telling me what i should do
728 2010-12-20 02:20:00 <epicurus> kthx
729 2010-12-20 02:20:20 <Kiba> epicurus: than shut the fuck up and code.
730 2010-12-20 02:20:23 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: my current belief is that it is impossible to have a perfectly fair system, and for now the most fair system I found is bitcoin. If you can solve all the issues (fraud, fairness, etc) and document it, I'll be happy to adopt it
731 2010-12-20 02:21:00 <epicurus> i'm not saying bitcoin must fail or that it shouldn't exist
732 2010-12-20 02:21:17 <epicurus> i think it's a step in the right direction
733 2010-12-20 02:21:30 <da2ce7> epicurus, your goals are mutualy exclucive with ours... I don't belve that bitcoin is the right avenue for you... However i cannot think of any rational way that your goals can be accheived.
734 2010-12-20 02:21:40 <[Noodles]> you just sayin' "in a perfect world...things might be better"
735 2010-12-20 02:21:45 <epicurus> i don't criticize the effort. i'm just trying to figure out how it can evolve..
736 2010-12-20 02:22:01 <Kiba> epicurus: clearly we are evolving away from what you like.
737 2010-12-20 02:22:04 <epicurus> [Noodles], no, i'm trying to understand what it is and how it can evolve.
738 2010-12-20 02:22:18 <epicurus> Kiba,  maybe. maybe not.
739 2010-12-20 02:22:18 <[Noodles]> the world isnt perfect, people are greedy, if you cant handle that, you will fail
740 2010-12-20 02:22:19 <Kiba> if you wish to have influence on monentary evolution, you will do something about it.
741 2010-12-20 02:22:32 <epicurus> i am doing something about it
742 2010-12-20 02:22:32 <Kiba> or sit back and shut the fuck up.
743 2010-12-20 02:22:43 <epicurus> damn, you're a jerk
744 2010-12-20 02:22:45 <epicurus> why?
745 2010-12-20 02:23:00 <da2ce7> but don't use violence to get to your goals, otherwise we will attack you hard, in defence.
746 2010-12-20 02:23:00 <epicurus> seriously, you're an intolerable asshole.
747 2010-12-20 02:23:03 <joe_1> Is the paying people for CPU the only thing you see that decreases production, or is it other things as well?
748 2010-12-20 02:23:09 <x6763> epicurus: if you want to understand bitcoin, there's a whitepaper written by satoshi, and there's a couple wikis with info about it...if you want to understand the economics of it all, then i recommend heading to #mises and mises.org
749 2010-12-20 02:23:11 <Kiba> epicurus: perhaps I am.
750 2010-12-20 02:23:22 <Kiba> but I am telling you how to accomplish your goal. And all you do is sit here.
751 2010-12-20 02:23:48 <epicurus> x6763,  so theres articles about it at mises.org. or bitcoin itself is based on austrian theory?
752 2010-12-20 02:24:02 <x6763> i don't know what's satoshi's economic influences are
753 2010-12-20 02:24:10 <Kiba> we don't know if it is based on Austrian theory
754 2010-12-20 02:24:20 <epicurus> i've looked at the wiki on the official site
755 2010-12-20 02:24:23 <Kiba> we don't know what Satoshi knows. He is mysterious.
756 2010-12-20 02:24:27 <epicurus> not saying i understand it though
757 2010-12-20 02:24:52 <epicurus> Kiba,  you're sounding like a cultist again
758 2010-12-20 02:24:53 <x6763> but austrian economic theory has refuted much of mainstream economic theory
759 2010-12-20 02:25:01 <Kiba> epicurus: that's your subjective judgement.
760 2010-12-20 02:25:04 <Kiba> but it's the truth.
761 2010-12-20 02:25:08 <Kiba> nobodys know who Satoshi is.
762 2010-12-20 02:25:22 <epicurus> x6763,  most of austrian theory has been around longer than so called modern mainstream theory
763 2010-12-20 02:25:57 <epicurus> but you probably knew that
764 2010-12-20 02:26:35 <Kiba> blah, perhaps I was rude to epicurus.
765 2010-12-20 02:27:03 <Kiba> get up so worked up for nothing.
766 2010-12-20 02:27:12 <epicurus> yeah
767 2010-12-20 02:27:18 <x6763> much of modern mainstream economic theory is based on old mercantilist and protectionist ideas
768 2010-12-20 02:27:21 <epicurus> i was just trying to have a friendly discussion
769 2010-12-20 02:27:33 <Kiba> oh I was trying to.
770 2010-12-20 02:27:39 <Kiba> but tribalism get the better of me.
771 2010-12-20 02:27:41 <Juan> away|and mercantilism was refuted by classical liberals way before 'austrians' were even born.
772 2010-12-20 02:27:54 <Kiba> I still don't understand it though.
773 2010-12-20 02:28:10 <x6763> yet the ideas are still taught in classrooms today as though they are economic fact
774 2010-12-20 02:28:19 <epicurus> Kiba,  well just relax, i'm not here to tear down bitcoin, i am here to learn from those who understand it better than i do
775 2010-12-20 02:28:34 <epicurus> but i have my own ideas about what the goals of a new monetary system might be
776 2010-12-20 02:28:35 <Kiba> and I was trying to understand what you think is wrong bitcoin.
777 2010-12-20 02:28:45 <Kiba> with bitcoin
778 2010-12-20 02:29:02 <Kiba> yes, and you should implement it and see if it work.
779 2010-12-20 02:29:23 <epicurus> basically my problem with it is that the distribution of bitcoins is going to those who already control capital and the internet
780 2010-12-20 02:29:32 <epicurus> so it's another top-down system
781 2010-12-20 02:29:43 <Kiba> some people are going to be richer than others
782 2010-12-20 02:29:46 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: bitcoin's goals do not include fairness
783 2010-12-20 02:29:50 <Kiba> and they going to control more stuff than other people.
784 2010-12-20 02:29:55 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: what is fairness?
785 2010-12-20 02:29:59 <x6763> whatever "fairness" means
786 2010-12-20 02:30:01 <epicurus> MT ok, i understand
787 2010-12-20 02:30:02 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: you tell me?
788 2010-12-20 02:30:02 <slush_cz> bc,poolstats
789 2010-12-20 02:30:43 <doublec> ;;bc,stat
790 2010-12-20 02:30:43 <gribble> Error: "bc,stat" is not a valid command.
791 2010-12-20 02:30:46 <doublec> ;;bc,stats
792 2010-12-20 02:30:49 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98489 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 294 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 17 hours, 51 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14342.39455009
793 2010-12-20 02:31:00 <MT`AwAy> anyway, bitcoin is about unexpensive secure anonymous transactions within shorter time frame
794 2010-12-20 02:31:22 <MT`AwAy> (shorter than existing money transfers which can take days)
795 2010-12-20 02:31:24 <epicurus> MT so, unfortunately, if bitcoin is not designed to work for everyone... that is, to be unbiased.... i'm afraid it's going to face a lot of resistance or reluctance
796 2010-12-20 02:31:25 <DerrikeG> slush_cz: Do you have a preferred or recommended number of retries for the latest CPU miner client?
797 2010-12-20 02:31:34 <joe_1> it sounds like there's a gray line between the monetary system itself and the governments that might control people who use it. It is possible that any monetary system could end up with few people controlling most of it, simply by power and influence in the empirical world, and through no fault of the money system. Bitcoin itself is not tending toward centralized control; in fact, most
798 2010-12-20 02:31:41 <epicurus> MT but for those who choose to use it, it is what it is
799 2010-12-20 02:31:56 <Kiba> epicurus: lot of people don't think bitcoin don't work for a whole lot of reasons
800 2010-12-20 02:32:07 <Kiba> don't think bitcoin will work
801 2010-12-20 02:32:28 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: I did not tested jgarzik's patch yet
802 2010-12-20 02:32:32 <Kiba> there some category, yes...like fear of deflationary spiral
803 2010-12-20 02:32:36 <Kiba> environmental waste
804 2010-12-20 02:32:37 <achasen> there is some value in the system itself (many people will disagree)
805 2010-12-20 02:32:38 <Kiba> and so on.
806 2010-12-20 02:32:48 <achasen> but think about the cost of that dollar in your pocket
807 2010-12-20 02:32:53 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: Depends on how it is implemented. If there is sleep between tries, let it set to infinite tries
808 2010-12-20 02:32:56 <ne0futur> epicurus: you should use the tab key :p try MT + tab
809 2010-12-20 02:33:04 <achasen> it costs $0.02/year to maintain that dollar
810 2010-12-20 02:33:10 <gribble> {"active_workers": 54, "hashes_ps": 4263487304, "shares": 9076, "round_started": "2010-12-20 01:00:47"}
811 2010-12-20 02:33:10 <slush_cz> ;;bc,poolstats
812 2010-12-20 02:33:11 <Kiba> only time will tell us who is actually right
813 2010-12-20 02:33:11 <ne0futur> you wont highlight MT`AwAy saying MT
814 2010-12-20 02:33:21 <DerrikeG> slush_cz: That's my concern, I don't know the sleep time / if there is one at all. :X
815 2010-12-20 02:33:22 <achasen> the people who "create" the system (the miners) should be compensated
816 2010-12-20 02:33:25 <Kiba> perhaps that will force economists to rethink their monentary theory
817 2010-12-20 02:33:25 <slush_cz> !newpool
818 2010-12-20 02:33:31 <slush_cz> nanotube: thanks :)
819 2010-12-20 02:33:33 <achasen> and every addition block they create makes a more secure system
820 2010-12-20 02:33:42 <Kiba> there's no such thing as a free lunch
821 2010-12-20 02:33:46 <Kiba> even for miners
822 2010-12-20 02:33:53 <achasen> Kiba: knowing a few economists, it is not unlikely
823 2010-12-20 02:33:59 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: Try it :) In the worst scenario you will flood the server
824 2010-12-20 02:34:00 <achasen> err
825 2010-12-20 02:34:00 <[Noodles]> those that invested the most earlier generate the more coins, but they also take the bigger risks, you don't risk anything buy just using bitcoin, if you wanna help, contribute some computing-resources, if you wanna make profit, you will need to invest, either in hard- and software+energy+time, or with your fiat cash in coins, investment required, bitcoin is not money-for-nothing
826 2010-12-20 02:34:04 <achasen> s/unlikely/likely
827 2010-12-20 02:34:11 <epicurus> ne0futur, i am using tab. this stupid xchat isn't doing it right on MT's nick
828 2010-12-20 02:34:26 <ne0futur> yes the backquote is pretty much annoying :p
829 2010-12-20 02:34:36 <Kiba> achasen: unlikely or likely
830 2010-12-20 02:34:37 <epicurus> even when i try it with that
831 2010-12-20 02:34:45 <DerrikeG> I'm just gonna roll with ten, there isn't an infinite option.
832 2010-12-20 02:34:46 <epicurus> MT`AwAy,
833 2010-12-20 02:34:55 <epicurus> there we go, i have to do the A as well
834 2010-12-20 02:34:59 <Kiba> There is no such thing as free lunch...
835 2010-12-20 02:35:11 <DerrikeG> There is if you're a professional moocher.
836 2010-12-20 02:35:25 <Kiba> who poularize the phrase there is no such thing as free lunch?
837 2010-12-20 02:35:30 <Kiba> hint: scfi writer
838 2010-12-20 02:35:36 <DerrikeG> Or have a small stomach the size of all the free samples in the market.
839 2010-12-20 02:36:02 <ne0futur> "there is no such thing as free lunch" could mean "there is no such thing as real friends or christians" . . .
840 2010-12-20 02:36:09 <epicurus> joe_1,  the natural result of a private bank issued currency sanctioned by a sovereign government dependent on that banking cartel is that the cartel soon owns the government
841 2010-12-20 02:36:23 <ne0futur> in many countries there is free lunch
842 2010-12-20 02:36:39 <DerrikeG> There's no such lunch as a free one.
843 2010-12-20 02:36:39 <Sherpa> #BitCoinX :D
844 2010-12-20 02:36:46 <epicurus> the government gets a magic unlimited checkbook and the banksters get the citizens chained to a yoke of taxation for life
845 2010-12-20 02:36:51 <MT`AwAy> Sherpa: spammer
846 2010-12-20 02:36:57 <Sherpa> Lies
847 2010-12-20 02:37:00 <epicurus> it's sort of a feudalism-fascism
848 2010-12-20 02:37:00 <Kiba> SPAMS :D
849 2010-12-20 02:37:14 <Kiba> spams are tasty meat
850 2010-12-20 02:37:33 <DerrikeG> epicurus: I get it, you don't like the government. Eat your money and don't pay your taxes.
851 2010-12-20 02:37:55 <epicurus> what?
852 2010-12-20 02:38:11 <Kiba> all governments are simply organized form of plunder
853 2010-12-20 02:38:20 <DerrikeG> Rape, and murder.
854 2010-12-20 02:38:36 <Kiba> even democractic one
855 2010-12-20 02:38:45 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: you should develop your ideas and write a paper about it to make it known to people
856 2010-12-20 02:39:15 <epicurus> [Noodles],  people keep talking about the "risk" of generating bitcoins. what kind of risk?
857 2010-12-20 02:39:28 <Kiba> the risk is in adopting bitcoins
858 2010-12-20 02:39:32 <Kiba> not generating it
859 2010-12-20 02:39:35 <[Noodles]> no risk of generating, risk of investment
860 2010-12-20 02:39:39 <epicurus> MT`AwAy,  ya think?
861 2010-12-20 02:39:44 <Kiba> if we adopt it but nobody use it, we wasted money
862 2010-12-20 02:39:49 <[Noodles]> to generate, it needs energy you know
863 2010-12-20 02:40:08 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: at least it would allow me, and everyone else, to know what your idea is exactly without having to ask zillion of questions
864 2010-12-20 02:40:09 <epicurus> [Noodles],  tell me, what is the cost of producing one bitcoin?