1 2010-12-23 00:00:29 <omglolbbq> why wouldn't you have the solution?
  2 2010-12-23 00:00:43 <donpdonp> because it takes me twice as long
  3 2010-12-23 00:00:59 <omglolbbq> so your chance halves
  4 2010-12-23 00:01:02 <theymos> donpdonp: You can get a winning hash before everyone else. Each hash you calculate is a random number. If the number is below some target, you win the block. There is no "progress" to solving a block.
  5 2010-12-23 00:01:05 <omglolbbq> it doesn't become pointless
  6 2010-12-23 00:01:08 <donpdonp> oh wait thats on average, i guess there is some chance that by luck i come across the solution with a 300Mhash card before a 500Mhash card
  7 2010-12-23 00:01:20 <fabianhjr> donpdonp: just make 1 hash on hand of something long like your bday + your favourite movie+ some lyrics of your favourite song and you have a chance to win!
  8 2010-12-23 00:01:35 <donpdonp> theymos: yeah that makes sense
  9 2010-12-23 00:01:41 <[Noodles]> you migh be lucky and find a solution first with 500khash
 10 2010-12-23 00:01:49 <[Noodles]> even with 1khash
 11 2010-12-23 00:01:57 <[Noodles]> doesnt matter actually
 12 2010-12-23 00:02:01 <omglolbbq> just needs a more luck :)
 13 2010-12-23 00:02:05 <fabianhjr> donpdonp: even if the 500M guy has a better probability, I can win him with my improbability drive. :D
 14 2010-12-23 00:02:13 <donpdonp> right, so the slow cards arent just slow, they'll really never win
 15 2010-12-23 00:02:29 <[Noodles]> on average, they'll never win
 16 2010-12-23 00:02:30 <fabianhjr> donpdonp: there is still a chance.
 17 2010-12-23 00:02:44 <fabianhjr> [Noodles] out it on the right words :P
 18 2010-12-23 00:02:47 <donpdonp> [Noodles]: yeah. probability.
 19 2010-12-23 00:02:47 <omglolbbq> the cpu's  for example have such a low chance, you could call that never probably
 20 2010-12-23 00:03:00 <donpdonp> ok that clears it up in my head. thanks everyone.
 21 2010-12-23 00:03:23 <omglolbbq> slush_cz you there?
 22 2010-12-23 00:03:25 <[Noodles]> that's why they SHOULD join a pool, IF they want coins as reward for contributing
 23 2010-12-23 00:03:28 <fabianhjr> Unless you joing a pooled effort. In which your chances are higher and the reward lower.
 24 2010-12-23 00:03:32 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: yep
 25 2010-12-23 00:03:41 <nanotube> donpdonp: you are forgetting that every miner hashes /different input/
 26 2010-12-23 00:03:49 <omglolbbq> im a little confused to the share calculating
 27 2010-12-23 00:03:50 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 82082 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 1 week, 1 day, 18 hours, 31 minutes, and 28 seconds
 28 2010-12-23 00:03:50 <nanotube> donpdonp: because everyone inserts his own unique "give me 50 btc" transaction
 29 2010-12-23 00:03:50 <Sherpa> ;;bc,calc 82082
 30 2010-12-23 00:04:39 <fabianhjr> ;;bc,calc 327000
 31 2010-12-23 00:04:39 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 327000 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 2 days, 4 hours, 50 minutes, and 41 seconds
 32 2010-12-23 00:04:47 <donpdonp> nanotube: interesting point. i think the probability of finding the correct hash remains the same
 33 2010-12-23 00:05:01 <fabianhjr> Oh, damn. The difficulty increased by ~200 D:
 34 2010-12-23 00:05:24 <[Noodles]> more like 2000
 35 2010-12-23 00:05:27 <omglolbbq> slush_cz, if i calculate my share from shares to total sharers this round i should get 0.29, but my profile displays expected reward 0.38
 36 2010-12-23 00:05:33 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 115014 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 6 days, 6 hours, 14 minutes, and 42 seconds
 37 2010-12-23 00:05:33 <Sherpa> ;;bc,calc 115014
 38 2010-12-23 00:05:37 <donpdonp> how does the 'network' know how many hash attempts are made, and thus adjusts the difficulty?
 39 2010-12-23 00:05:52 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: So be happy and don't say it to anybody :-D
 40 2010-12-23 00:05:53 <fabianhjr> [Noodles]: sorry, my computer is lagging while I run the mining program. 8)
 41 2010-12-23 00:05:53 <Sherpa> Thats what 200MHz on my GPU makes for in khash
 42 2010-12-23 00:05:57 <theymos> donpdonp: It doesn't. It's just based on time to generate the blocks.
 43 2010-12-23 00:06:13 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: how many shares do you have now?
 44 2010-12-23 00:06:16 <omglolbbq> ok... i didn't say anything, nobody saw what i said!
 45 2010-12-23 00:06:19 <omglolbbq> xD
 46 2010-12-23 00:06:19 <Sherpa> 32932 khash/s
 47 2010-12-23 00:06:27 <slush_cz> Sherpa: shares, not speed
 48 2010-12-23 00:06:31 <omglolbbq> 188 shares
 49 2010-12-23 00:06:35 <Sherpa> ?
 50 2010-12-23 00:06:45 <slush_cz> Sherpa: sorry, bad nick :)
 51 2010-12-23 00:06:49 <fabianhjr> shares of what?
 52 2010-12-23 00:06:50 <donpdonp> theymos: oh! ok. makes sense
 53 2010-12-23 00:07:07 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 32932 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 3 weeks, 0 days, 20 hours, 43 minutes, and 33 seconds
 54 2010-12-23 00:07:07 <midnightmagic> must be of the pool.
 55 2010-12-23 00:07:07 <Sherpa> ;;bc,calc 32932
 56 2010-12-23 00:07:08 <[Noodles]> shares of work done for the pool
 57 2010-12-23 00:07:40 <omglolbbq> slush, the profile corrected it! my own calculation 0.307, profile expects 0.306
 58 2010-12-23 00:07:50 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: So ~0.3 is correct.
 59 2010-12-23 00:07:55 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: 188/30591*50
 60 2010-12-23 00:07:57 <omglolbbq> is there a delay in calculation on the profile?
 61 2010-12-23 00:08:13 <omglolbbq> just a few minutes ago it displayed 0.38
 62 2010-12-23 00:08:22 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: No, but total shares is changing very frequently
 63 2010-12-23 00:08:24 <[Noodles]> no delay, but it changes with every hash you send
 64 2010-12-23 00:08:25 <fabianhjr> Need to reboot. BRB
 65 2010-12-23 00:08:25 <Sherpa> 1st line of http://www.bitcoinx.info/ has current stats for BitCoin :)
 66 2010-12-23 00:08:35 <Sherpa> BitCoin Blocks: 98975 Coins: 4948750 Difficulty: 14484 BTC/Block: 50
 67 2010-12-23 00:08:42 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: Changes with every hash ANYBODY send
 68 2010-12-23 00:08:50 <slush_cz> current submit rate is >1/sec
 69 2010-12-23 00:09:02 <omglolbbq> o_o" 5 mln coins... i wonder who has them
 70 2010-12-23 00:09:12 <[Noodles]> the longer you are in a roiund, the closer you get to your 0.585
 71 2010-12-23 00:09:54 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: This is just an expectation. It may be incorrect until workers submit their shares every second
 72 2010-12-23 00:10:23 <omglolbbq> slush_cz, ok :)
 73 2010-12-23 00:16:37 <omglolbbq> aww no players in bitcoin poker xD
 74 2010-12-23 00:26:20 <omglolbbq> somebody interrested here in playing bitcoin poker?
 75 2010-12-23 00:27:04 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: me, but not now, I'm too busy
 76 2010-12-23 00:27:57 <omglolbbq> np, i still need to confirm balance
 77 2010-12-23 00:53:54 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: What's the link to poker? Today I'm out (3am here again), but I'm interested in
 78 2010-12-23 01:02:28 <slush_cz> I just fixed an pool issue with newest Diablo's miner.
 79 2010-12-23 01:03:05 <slush_cz> Please all users of Diablo's miner, please update. It comes with significant improvements with pooled mining
 80 2010-12-23 01:03:51 <nanotube> slush_cz: ooh what was the source of the problem?
 81 2010-12-23 01:05:10 <nanotube> and woo, i'm almost up to half a bitcoin on my pool balance! :)
 82 2010-12-23 01:05:10 <slush_cz> nanotube: One of Diablo's improvement is that cores are working on the same job at the same time.
 83 2010-12-23 01:06:27 <slush_cz> nanotube: But all other miners and previous version of Diablo's throw away job when nonce was found. And pool did not allow to reuse job which was already submitted
 84 2010-12-23 01:06:53 <nanotube> mmm
 85 2010-12-23 01:59:42 <sneak> ArtForz: ping
 86 2010-12-23 02:03:23 <ArtForz> ?
 87 2010-12-23 02:03:39 <sneak> ArtForz: are you coming to berlin for ccc/berlinsides?
 88 2010-12-23 02:04:28 <sneak> http://sneak.datavibe.net/20101222/financing-the-revolution/
 89 2010-12-23 02:14:29 <da2ce7> ;;bc,calc 470000
 90 2010-12-23 02:14:30 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 470000 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 1 day, 12 hours, 45 minutes, and 59 seconds
 91 2010-12-23 02:14:46 <nanotube> btw... so is the actual pubkey of the source address included in a transaction? so that all clients can verify that it is valid?
 92 2010-12-23 02:15:01 <nanotube> if not, how is validity verified?
 93 2010-12-23 02:15:14 <gribble> {"active_workers": 98, "hashes_ps": 4883470182, "shares": 5178, "round_started": "2010-12-23 01:59:20"}
 94 2010-12-23 02:15:14 <nanotube> ;;bc,poolstats
 95 2010-12-23 02:15:51 <slush_cz> nanotube: mine 600mhash is not here, I'm testing on testnet
 96 2010-12-23 02:16:05 <nanotube> ah ok... that's why we're below 5ghps...
 97 2010-12-23 02:16:13 <theymos> nanotube: It's including in the scriptSig when you spend a transaction that was sent to your BC address.
 98 2010-12-23 02:16:32 <nanotube> slush_cz: 600mhash... testnet must be running up blocks like mad.
 99 2010-12-23 02:16:43 <nanotube> theymos: cool so in other words, that's a 'yes' :)
100 2010-12-23 02:16:51 <slush_cz> nanotube: it is :)
101 2010-12-23 02:24:28 <slush_cz> nanotube: I'm back, but I probably shot down few miners because of restart
102 2010-12-23 02:24:57 <slush_cz> nanotube: Few miners still run on older versions because of many issues in newer versions
103 2010-12-23 02:26:42 <[Noodles]> your just killing 1 of 3 miners on my side ;o)
104 2010-12-23 02:29:09 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: Soory, it was the last restart today
105 2010-12-23 02:29:23 <da2ce7> slush_cz, what has changed?
106 2010-12-23 02:29:29 <[Noodles]> nevermind, it's not a problem at all, as long as i notice
107 2010-12-23 02:29:31 <slush_cz> Not all issues solved :( but I need to manage this with Diablo.
108 2010-12-23 02:29:37 <slush_cz> Does not look like problem on my side now
109 2010-12-23 02:30:08 <slush_cz> But stability of Diablo's with pool is good enough, I migrated from older version now
110 2010-12-23 02:30:47 <slush_cz> da2ce7: Diablo made some performance improvements for my pool. Unfortunately they were incompatible with it :))
111 2010-12-23 02:31:37 <slush_cz> We found one problem yesterday which is currently fixed - submitting more nonces for one job.
112 2010-12-23 02:31:45 <da2ce7> so the pool acepts bocks with the same work, but differnt nounces?
113 2010-12-23 02:32:09 <slush_cz> But it looks like he (or <something>) is uploading same nonces twice, sometimes
114 2010-12-23 02:32:11 <da2ce7> cool,
115 2010-12-23 02:32:46 <da2ce7> slush_cz, your miner is becoming pritty solid.
116 2010-12-23 02:33:02 <slush_cz> da2ce7: I'm doing my best :)
117 2010-12-23 02:34:59 <slush_cz> So still some problems here, but it does not throw away unique shares. So probably no PoW lost
118 2010-12-23 02:37:08 <da2ce7> how is the dynamic dificuty going?
119 2010-12-23 02:38:43 <slush_cz> no progress in last days, I solved those issues
120 2010-12-23 02:38:59 <slush_cz> But it is #1 task in my TODO now
121 2010-12-23 02:40:29 <da2ce7> are you going to release the source code?
122 2010-12-23 02:45:46 <ArtForz> updated network hashrate graph: http://bayimg.com/fAbMpaAdj
123 2010-12-23 02:46:26 <slush_cz> da2ce7: No, I don't plan it for now. I like to run it as service
124 2010-12-23 02:50:07 <theymos> ArtForz: Nice exponential growth. I'd expect it to level off soon, though, since the price is remaining pretty low.
125 2010-12-23 02:55:28 <Keefe> what's the sample size used for that chart?
126 2010-12-23 02:55:34 <ArtForz> 144 blocks
127 2010-12-23 02:58:23 <gribble> Diablo-D3 was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 10 hours, 29 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Diablo-D3> run mvn package
128 2010-12-23 02:58:23 <slush_cz> ;;seen Diablo-D3
129 2010-12-23 02:58:36 <Keefe> exactly? the timescale is linear though
130 2010-12-23 02:58:47 <ArtForz> so?
131 2010-12-23 02:58:55 <Keefe> are the datapoints spaces evenly also?
132 2010-12-23 02:58:59 <Keefe> spaced*
133 2010-12-23 02:59:03 <Keefe> horizontally
134 2010-12-23 02:59:05 <ArtForz> nope
135 2010-12-23 02:59:08 <Keefe> ah
136 2010-12-23 02:59:13 <Keefe> nice chart
137 2010-12-23 02:59:29 <EvanR> lol @ bid 0.2499 10, ask 0.2501 10
138 2010-12-23 03:00:01 <EvanR> which way is it gonna go xD
139 2010-12-23 03:01:50 <Keefe> i'm going to guess the bid will be filled first
140 2010-12-23 03:26:17 <EvanR> <+gribble> MTG|     TRADE|                         10 @ $0.2499
141 2010-12-23 03:28:08 <EvanR> youre the man
142 2010-12-23 03:28:13 <EvanR> good thing i didnt bet ;)
143 2010-12-23 03:30:52 <Cusipzzz> it's his bot, obv
144 2010-12-23 03:31:03 <EvanR> lol
145 2010-12-23 04:08:11 <Keefe> i wouldn't have bet. it would be too easy to cause the desired outcome cheaply
146 2010-12-23 04:09:08 <Keefe> i had nothing to do with that outcome, for what my saying so is worth :)
147 2010-12-23 04:19:13 <appamatto> Any crypto-minded folks around here used Curve25519 before?
148 2010-12-23 04:21:41 <nanotube> appamatto: no... but why do you ask? it seems it's incompatible with the ecdsa standard...
149 2010-12-23 04:23:00 <appamatto> what part of it?
150 2010-12-23 04:23:41 <appamatto> it's not one of the selected curves, in other words?
151 2010-12-23 04:26:52 <appamatto> djb is the man
152 2010-12-23 04:26:58 <Sherpa> http://www.bitcoinx.info/btcx/technical-support/10-bitcoin-blocks-full-blockchain-download.html
153 2010-12-23 04:27:30 <appamatto> Sherpa, is this better than having the client download it?
154 2010-12-23 04:28:53 <nanotube> appamatto: yep, it's outside the spec for the acceptable family of curves.
155 2010-12-23 04:29:19 <appamatto> nanotube, I don't think the spec says that other curves are inherently dangerous
156 2010-12-23 04:29:38 <nanotube> appamatto: well, it may be faster... but you have to trust the source.
157 2010-12-23 04:29:56 <nanotube> appamatto: not inherently dangerous... just outside the spec.
158 2010-12-23 04:31:05 <appamatto> I read about off-the-record protocols today
159 2010-12-23 04:31:14 <appamatto> I always wondered how that could be done
160 2010-12-23 04:31:18 <appamatto> Forgery is a part of the protocol
161 2010-12-23 04:54:16 <theymos> What is the proper/consistent way of using the AddToWallet function from main.cpp in init.cpp? Should I just copy/paste it?
162 2010-12-23 05:44:24 <BoBeR> when was the last purchase on bitcoin
163 2010-12-23 05:44:31 <BoBeR> it seems like no money is being made
164 2010-12-23 05:45:01 <nanotube> last trade on mtgox was 23.26 EST (according to #bitcoin-market)
165 2010-12-23 05:49:43 <grondilu> nanotube: do you think you could implement an robot for dealing with auctions on #bitcoin-auction ?
166 2010-12-23 05:50:15 <nanotube> what would it do?
167 2010-12-23 05:51:34 <grondilu> pretty much what I did.  It would reads auctions from people, and declare the winner.
168 2010-12-23 05:52:18 <nanotube> so basically people would do something like "bid <amount>", and it'd record it as highest bid, or else reject if it's too low?
169 2010-12-23 05:52:37 <grondilu> yes, more or less
170 2010-12-23 05:53:16 <grondilu> bitd could have the form "30", "10bc", "+1", "_.04" and so on...
171 2010-12-23 05:53:49 <nanotube> i think to reduce confusion, it should just take full amount.
172 2010-12-23 05:54:10 <grondilu> we should permit fast typing
173 2010-12-23 05:54:15 <nanotube> numbers are fast.
174 2010-12-23 05:54:38 <nanotube> plus there's message history. you can hit arrow-up, and edit your previous number.
175 2010-12-23 05:55:01 <nanotube> e.g., you saw what happened to day at the auction, when you said 'just type decimals'... there was some confusion.
176 2010-12-23 05:55:10 <nanotube> best to stick to full amounts.
177 2010-12-23 05:55:30 <grondilu> you weren't there earlier.  Bober and Kiba were battling at the very last block and I had to suggest to them not to write the first digit.  So "3.45" was ".45" for instance
178 2010-12-23 05:55:48 <nanotube> i saw the full history, though i wasn't at the comp. :)
179 2010-12-23 05:56:08 <nanotube> .45 is not appreciably faster than 3.45
180 2010-12-23 05:56:10 <grondilu> still, I think fast typing is important.
181 2010-12-23 05:57:03 <grondilu> I think .45 is faster than 3.45, especially if you have to type it multiple times.
182 2010-12-23 05:59:12 <grondilu> there was some confusion only when Kiba wrote "10" when the highest bid was 3.43 or something.  He should have written 10.00 to avoid confusion.   There are just a few conventions that should be specified.
183 2010-12-23 06:01:36 <grondilu> the "+1" function would be especially usefull.  We obviously can't do that with only humans involved, because it woudl require too much quick mental computation.  But a robot would immediately do the addition and notify everyone of the new highest bid.
184 2010-12-23 06:03:08 <nanotube> yea, we could do +x meaning "add x to previous high bid"
185 2010-12-23 06:03:16 <grondilu> exactly
186 2010-12-23 06:03:52 <grondilu> and the robot would immediately post "alice leads at XXX BTC"
187 2010-12-23 06:04:06 <nanotube> right
188 2010-12-23 06:04:26 <nanotube> and even do automatic auction termination. based either on block posting, or clocktime
189 2010-12-23 06:04:30 <grondilu> I'll make a thread in the forum to clarify those ideas.
190 2010-12-23 06:05:18 <grondilu> yes of course, termination is one of main interest of using a robot.
191 2010-12-23 06:05:29 <theymos> What if two people post within seconds such that the second transaction adds up to a larger bid than expected? Example: A bids 10, B bids 50, and C bids +1, thinking that he's actually bidding 11.
192 2010-12-23 06:06:00 <nanotube> theymos: there's 'unbid' for that. :)
193 2010-12-23 06:06:22 <grondilu> a bid should be definitive.
194 2010-12-23 06:06:27 <nanotube> grondilu: so what if someone makes a typo, and bids 110 instead of 10?
195 2010-12-23 06:06:34 <nanotube> you make him stick by it? that's pretty unforgiving
196 2010-12-23 06:06:44 <grondilu> true, that's a problem.
197 2010-12-23 06:06:52 <nanotube> or bids 099 instead of 0.99 :)
198 2010-12-23 06:06:56 <nanotube> there has to be unbid
199 2010-12-23 06:07:13 <theymos> Maybe just within a few minutes of the bid.
200 2010-12-23 06:07:18 <Kiba> "We can't trust companies. That why they need to be regulated!"
201 2010-12-23 06:07:32 <Kiba> of course, what if the companies capture the regulator authority
202 2010-12-23 06:07:34 <nanotube> theymos: but yes, that's why i was liking the 'full amount only' idea. reduces problems like that. :)
203 2010-12-23 06:07:49 <grondilu> I guess with a robot there has to be a possibility for unbidding.
204 2010-12-23 06:08:05 <Diablo-D3> http://www.simcop2387.info/pics/moot.png
205 2010-12-23 06:08:30 <Diablo-D3> fucking gabe newell
206 2010-12-23 06:09:51 <grondilu> we might also have the robot make some kind of a numeric check.  It would ask confirmation if the spread is higher than a certain amount.
207 2010-12-23 06:10:20 <nanotube> meh, getting too complex... what if other people are bidding while bot is still waiting for confirmation?
208 2010-12-23 06:11:29 <grondilu> doesn't matter, if intermediate bidding is higher, it will cancel confirmation of the other.  If it's lower, we can just forget about it.
209 2010-12-23 06:12:39 <grondilu> Asking for confirmation does make sense.  It's pretty much what a human being does.  If someone tells me 1000 when I espect around 10, I say "WTF ?  can you confirm that please ?"
210 2010-12-23 06:13:22 <grondilu> I'd prefer this solution to the unbidding.
211 2010-12-23 06:14:04 <grondilu> Also, with the unbidding you have to keep a record of previous bids.  It may be even more complex than the confrmation method.
212 2010-12-23 06:14:37 <nanotube> with confirmation, i'd also have to keep track of the unconfirmed bids.
213 2010-12-23 06:14:54 <grondilu> only one.
214 2010-12-23 06:15:12 <grondilu> and not all bids will require confirmation.
215 2010-12-23 06:15:16 <grondilu> most won't.
216 2010-12-23 06:15:18 <nanotube> u1: 10btc; bot: u1 confirm please; u2: 9 btc; bot: u2 confirm please...
217 2010-12-23 06:15:31 <grondilu> no.
218 2010-12-23 06:15:40 <nanotube> until u1 confirms, or fails to... u2 bid may still be valid.
219 2010-12-23 06:16:47 <grondilu> A: 1 btc; bot: A leads at 1 btc;  B: 10000 btc;  bot: B: !? please type confirm to confirm 10000 btc.
220 2010-12-23 06:17:08 <nanotube> right... now let's go on
221 2010-12-23 06:17:12 <nanotube> C: 900btc
222 2010-12-23 06:17:21 <nanotube> bot: C: ?? confirm
223 2010-12-23 06:17:24 <grondilu> Has B confirmed ?N
224 2010-12-23 06:17:24 <nanotube> right? :)
225 2010-12-23 06:17:26 <nanotube> no
226 2010-12-23 06:17:33 <nanotube> you didn't see me type B: confirm
227 2010-12-23 06:18:11 <grondilu> yes, C must confirm since his bid is 900% increase of A's bid
228 2010-12-23 06:18:35 <grondilu> we could make a limit of, say, 20% increase.
229 2010-12-23 06:18:53 <grondilu> This limit could be set individually by each user.
230 2010-12-23 06:19:24 <grondilu> I know it's sounds complex but not too much imo
231 2010-12-23 06:19:38 <nanotube> limit by user, even? way too much complexity heh.
232 2010-12-23 06:19:56 <grondilu> ok, one limit for everyone then.
233 2010-12-23 06:21:08 <nanotube> i think for a first implementation... i'll just try a bid <fullamount> and an unbid with a max history of 10 bids.
234 2010-12-23 06:21:16 <nanotube> and we'll see how it goes from there. :)
235 2010-12-23 06:21:53 <grondilu> It's actually what happens when I make an stock market order.  If my bid is higher than 110% of the last price, I receive a warning before I'm asked to confirm the order.
236 2010-12-23 06:22:01 <hacim> howdy, the cli doesn't seem to have an option to list my addresses... I can create a new address with ./bitcoind getnewaddress, but generating a new one each time?
237 2010-12-23 06:23:40 <grondilu> again I don't like the unbid version.  I won't use it if you implement it.
238 2010-12-23 06:24:10 <theymos> hacim: listreceivedbyaddress 0 true
239 2010-12-23 06:24:32 <hacim> theymos: aha, thanks!
240 2010-12-23 06:25:13 <nanotube> grondilu: mm well i'm going to sleep... i'll sleep on it. :)
241 2010-12-23 06:25:21 <grondilu> ok
242 2010-12-23 06:25:42 <grondilu> nanotube: use the /away command
243 2010-12-23 06:26:21 <nanotube> why? my bnc will set me away automatically once i disconnect.
244 2010-12-23 06:26:33 <grondilu> oh ok
245 2010-12-23 06:30:17 <Diablo-D3> man wheres slush
246 2010-12-23 06:30:29 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: he's afk for the holidays.
247 2010-12-23 06:30:48 <Diablo-D3> feh
248 2010-12-23 06:30:50 <Diablo-D3> his fix isnt.
249 2010-12-23 06:32:59 <Kiba> ever met a person that is wrong in almost every sentence he said?
250 2010-12-23 06:33:47 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: strangely, yes
251 2010-12-23 07:04:13 <Keefe> anyone know what fee bitcoingateway charges for buying mtgox credit? BG is closed for maintenance so i can't see the details
252 2010-12-23 07:13:42 <EvanR> Kiba: 90% of the people in ##php #mysql and ##javascript
253 2010-12-23 07:14:15 <ne0futur> Kiba: ##economics is cool too to meet this kind of people :p
254 2010-12-23 07:14:30 <Diablo-D3> ##economics is mostly full of retards
255 2010-12-23 07:14:35 <EvanR> basically, people on the internet
256 2010-12-23 07:24:37 <wumpus> not only on the internet
257 2010-12-23 07:26:39 <EvanR> the internet aggregates wrong people
258 2010-12-23 07:27:55 <wumpus> well also 'right' people but they're aways a miniority
259 2010-12-23 07:31:52 <BoBeR> FALALALALALALAH
260 2010-12-23 07:32:28 <hundfred> BoBeR: ?
261 2010-12-23 07:32:37 <BoBeR> holidays
262 2010-12-23 07:32:44 <BoBeR> whats wrong with singing
263 2010-12-23 07:33:02 <hundfred> +
264 2010-12-23 07:33:11 <hundfred> BoBeR: just go ahead
265 2010-12-23 07:33:30 <BoBeR> why thank you kind sir/madam
266 2010-12-23 08:43:26 <aximilation> is everyone gone for the night?
267 2010-12-23 08:51:53 <joe_1> yes
268 2010-12-23 08:52:20 <joe_1> everyone is gone
269 2010-12-23 08:52:57 <Amiga4000> not really
270 2010-12-23 08:53:01 <wumpus> not really, it also isn't night here
271 2010-12-23 08:53:20 <Amiga4000> i just got my 3rd block
272 2010-12-23 08:55:19 <Lysacor> various people show at various times
273 2010-12-23 09:10:16 <gribble> Diablo-D3 was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 hour, 55 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <Diablo-D3> ##economics is mostly full of retards
274 2010-12-23 09:10:16 <slush_cz> ;;seen Diablo-D3
275 2010-12-23 09:10:42 <Lysacor> ;;bc,stats
276 2010-12-23 09:10:44 <gribble> Current Blocks: 99031 | Current Difficulty: 14484.16236123 | Next Difficulty At Block: 100799 | Next Difficulty In: 1768 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 18 hours, 52 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 15150.15312763
277 2010-12-23 09:18:42 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: Im right here
278 2010-12-23 10:51:06 <UukGoblin> is bitcoinexchange coming back, Sirius_?
279 2010-12-23 12:08:28 <xelister> haha funny.  Look how this uneducated niggers from TSA abuse american peoples on own land :D The terrorists had won. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHxy5GattLY
280 2010-12-23 12:09:33 <xelister> also, how pigs work in usa
281 2010-12-23 12:10:58 <xelister> I restate that americans are buch of fat faggots
282 2010-12-23 12:11:08 <xelister> even uneducated idiots from TSA can become their slave masters
283 2010-12-23 12:13:19 <MT`AwAy> most of the americans who care are too lazy to actually do something, and the few who do something are too few
284 2010-12-23 12:14:02 <xelister> yeap. Country of fat pussies sitting in front on TV
285 2010-12-23 12:14:54 <MT`AwAy> stop hurting their freedom
286 2010-12-23 12:42:54 <da2ce7> ;;bc,mtgox
287 2010-12-23 12:42:54 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.25,"low":0.241,"vol":1745,"buy":0.2457,"sell":0.2501,"last":0.25}}
288 2010-12-23 12:53:12 <EvanR> there seems to be no end to the bitcoins worth 25 cents ;)
289 2010-12-23 12:53:45 <EvanR> rebrand to 'bitquarters'
290 2010-12-23 12:56:30 <ThomasV> hello. besides private keys, what does wallet.dat contain ?
291 2010-12-23 12:57:11 <edcba> candies !
292 2010-12-23 12:57:22 <ThomasV> oh sure
293 2010-12-23 13:00:24 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: application settings and all transactions to or from your private keys.
294 2010-12-23 13:00:55 <gavinandresen> If you're really curious, my python bitcointools can dump out all the data in wallet.dat in human-readable form
295 2010-12-23 13:01:04 <ThomasV> I am
296 2010-12-23 13:01:14 <ThomasV> where is it ?
297 2010-12-23 13:01:29 <gavinandresen> https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools
298 2010-12-23 13:01:30 <edcba> on the cloud
299 2010-12-23 13:01:43 <ThomasV> great
300 2010-12-23 13:02:22 <EvanR> to the cloud!!
301 2010-12-23 13:07:25 <mahound> hello
302 2010-12-23 13:09:02 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: is there an option to print out they full key pairs ?
303 2010-12-23 13:09:26 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: nope.  Trivial to change the code to do that, though...
304 2010-12-23 13:09:39 <ThomasV> okay
305 2010-12-23 13:11:43 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: why does it display more key pairs than adresses ?
306 2010-12-23 13:12:50 <gavinandresen> bitcoin pre-generates keypairs (the "key pool") so wallet backups are valid for longer.  And it generates keypairs for change, and, if you are mining, keypairs for the miners.
307 2010-12-23 13:14:35 <ThomasV> "keypairs for change" ? do you mean change as in spare change ?
308 2010-12-23 13:15:04 <gavinandresen> Lets say you generate 50 bitcoins.  You have a value=50 "coin" (transaction, really) in your wallet.
309 2010-12-23 13:15:37 <gavinandresen> Now you want to pay me 1 bitcoin.  That becomes a transaction with one input (+50) and two outputs:  1 bitcoin to me, and 49 in change
310 2010-12-23 13:15:51 <gavinandresen> Bitcoin always uses a new keypair for the change
311 2010-12-23 13:16:03 <ThomasV> I see
312 2010-12-23 13:16:34 <ThomasV> so your tool does not tell me which keypairs are for what, does it ?
313 2010-12-23 13:16:40 <gavinandresen> Nope
314 2010-12-23 13:17:15 <ThomasV> is there a way I can delete an adress from the list with your tool ?
315 2010-12-23 13:17:57 <gavinandresen> No.  Messing with the wallet is highly discouraged.
316 2010-12-23 13:19:00 <ThomasV> and is there a way to save it in human readable form, and to convert it back to its original format ?
317 2010-12-23 13:19:21 <gavinandresen> No.
318 2010-12-23 13:19:33 <ThomasV> hmmm
319 2010-12-23 13:19:54 <gavinandresen> Are you worried about long-term storage of bitcoin value?
320 2010-12-23 13:20:00 <ThomasV> exactly
321 2010-12-23 13:20:12 <ThomasV> I would like to save it on a non-computer support
322 2010-12-23 13:20:19 <ThomasV> eg a piece of paper
323 2010-12-23 13:20:26 <ThomasV> and put it in a safe
324 2010-12-23 13:20:31 <gavinandresen> See: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues#issue/2
325 2010-12-23 13:20:40 <ThomasV> I can do this easily with ssh keypairs
326 2010-12-23 13:20:46 <gavinandresen> (and vote it up)
327 2010-12-23 13:20:56 <EvanR> you can easily base64 encode the file, print it out
328 2010-12-23 13:21:09 <EvanR> on however many sheets of paper
329 2010-12-23 13:21:14 <ThomasV> EvanR: yes, I thought about that
330 2010-12-23 13:21:26 <ThomasV> but it might be quite long
331 2010-12-23 13:21:28 <EvanR> dont know about reliably getting it back in
332 2010-12-23 13:21:37 <ThomasV> well, with OCR
333 2010-12-23 13:21:41 <EvanR> turn the printer to vector mode, reduce the font size
334 2010-12-23 13:21:55 <UukGoblin> there was a project somewhere to print stuff on A4 and scan it back...
335 2010-12-23 13:22:02 <gavinandresen> (and comment on it)
336 2010-12-23 13:22:04 <UukGoblin> afaik it squashed up to 600k on 1 page
337 2010-12-23 13:22:05 <EvanR> going to work
338 2010-12-23 13:22:14 <gavinandresen> (and, if you're able, submit patches to implement it....)
339 2010-12-23 13:22:39 <ThomasV> but if I use my wallet, I guess the wallet.dat file will be deprecated
340 2010-12-23 13:23:22 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: exactly, it's no use saving a printout of your wallet in your safe if you're still SPENDING those coins....
341 2010-12-23 13:23:28 <UukGoblin> http://www.ollydbg.de/Paperbak/index.html
342 2010-12-23 13:23:47 <ThomasV> it's not alowing you to separate your identity from the contebt of your account
343 2010-12-23 13:26:52 <ThomasV> what happens if I copy my wallet.dat on a different computer, and then do transactions. will the first wallet synchronize ?
344 2010-12-23 13:28:44 <gavinandresen> Yes...
345 2010-12-23 13:30:18 <gavinandresen> But... it's generally not a good idea.  Eventually the two wallets will end up with different keypairs (as bitcoin generates new keys), and you'll eventually end up with a mess.
346 2010-12-23 13:31:05 <ThomasV> unless the first wallet did not generate any keypair because it was a paper printout in a safe ?
347 2010-12-23 13:31:18 <ThomasV> or not ?
348 2010-12-23 13:31:55 <gavinandresen> Sure, but the second wallet will continue to generate keypairs.
349 2010-12-23 13:32:31 <gavinandresen> As a backup, printing out the wallet and depositing it in the safe (or just saving it on a USB stick and putting it in a safe) is a great idea.
350 2010-12-23 13:33:42 <mahound> what should be an acceptable khash/s speed for a modern computer? cpu mining only
351 2010-12-23 13:34:07 <gavinandresen> mahound: there's no such thing.  cpu mining isn't cost effective unless you get your electricity for free.
352 2010-12-23 13:37:04 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: if the second wallet continues to generate keypairs, I guess that some of them are recoverable through synchronisation (those related to transactions) and some of them are not (if I create new adresses). is that correct ?
353 2010-12-23 13:39:23 <mahound> gavinandresen, is the bc exhange rate that bad right now?
354 2010-12-23 13:39:44 <ThomasV> mahound: the difficulty is high
355 2010-12-23 13:39:59 <mahound> ThomasV, what do you mean?
356 2010-12-23 13:40:42 <ThomasV> mahound: http://nullvoid.org/bitcoin/difficultiez.php
357 2010-12-23 13:42:53 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: I don't think I understand your question.   If the second wallet generates new keypairs that aren't backed up, and you restore your wallet from an old backup, then any coins sent to those keypairs (either addresses you gave out or change transactions from coins you sent) are lost.
358 2010-12-23 13:43:57 <gavinandresen> I've been tempted to write a "permanent wallet" patch, and have bitcoin just re-use the same, oh, 100 or 1,000 keypairs forever....
359 2010-12-23 13:44:43 <gavinandresen> Theoretically that makes it easier for somebody to figure out all of your addresses, and, therefore, able to figure out your bitcoin balance and all your transactions.
360 2010-12-23 13:44:54 <mahound> so, what is the best way of getting bitcoins right now, besides selling stuff of course?
361 2010-12-23 13:44:55 <mahound> :p
362 2010-12-23 13:45:06 <gavinandresen> But in practice, I think 100 or 1000 addresses would give you pretty good anonymity.
363 2010-12-23 13:45:08 <nanotube> mahound: buying them with dollars, probably. :)
364 2010-12-23 13:45:33 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
365 2010-12-23 13:45:33 <nanotube> mahound: or if you have free electricity, join the ,,pool
366 2010-12-23 13:45:50 <nanotube> gavinandresen: could be a 'nice option to have'
367 2010-12-23 13:46:29 <mahound> i see
368 2010-12-23 13:48:26 <ThomasV> there might be theoretical reasons why the keypairs associated to my adresses are not sufficient to use my coins ; but I just do not see it
369 2010-12-23 13:50:31 <EvanR-work> lol free electricity
370 2010-12-23 13:50:43 <gavinandresen> ThomasV:  a bitcoin address IS the encoded hash of public key, so if you have the corresponding private key that is completely sufficient for using coins sent to that address.
371 2010-12-23 13:51:04 <EvanR-work> mahound: bitcoingateway, buy coins with a credit card
372 2010-12-23 13:51:19 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: so why does bitcoin need to generate new keypairs then ?
373 2010-12-23 13:51:54 <ThomasV> you said it uses new keypairs for change
374 2010-12-23 13:52:49 <jb55> this is the first time I've seen this while mining in the pool, what does it mean? http://cl.ly/31290S2200130H450G1m
375 2010-12-23 13:53:01 <bd_> ThomasV: it doesn't need to, but if you use the same key for your change it's pretty obvious which output was change and which was the payment
376 2010-12-23 13:53:09 <bd_> meaning it's a bit easier to track what you're doing
377 2010-12-23 13:54:22 <gavinandresen> what bd_ said-- constantly generating new keypairs increases anonymity.
378 2010-12-23 13:54:39 <ThomasV> hmm at the expenses of safety
379 2010-12-23 13:55:02 <bd_> safety?
380 2010-12-23 13:55:31 <gavinandresen> Well, there's also the issue of what if a hacker gets at an old backup copy of your wallet?
381 2010-12-23 13:55:50 <EvanR-work> is the old wallet useful?
382 2010-12-23 13:55:57 <gavinandresen> There's the computer security principle that keys should be changed regularly, for safety.
383 2010-12-23 13:55:57 <ThomasV> bd_: yes, I would like to be able to recover my coins from a predefined set of keypairs
384 2010-12-23 13:56:17 <bd_> ThomasV: Well, you could in principle do that at the expense of anonymity
385 2010-12-23 13:56:47 <bd_> EvanR-work: If any unspent coins remain tied to keys on the old wallet, the person holding the old wallet could spend them
386 2010-12-23 13:56:48 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: sure but once every transaction is a bit extreme :-)
387 2010-12-23 13:57:33 <EvanR-work> remember to encrypt backup copies ;)
388 2010-12-23 13:57:36 <ThomasV> bd_: that's what I want. I want to store my old wallet in a safe
389 2010-12-23 13:57:38 <gavinandresen> ThomasV:  agreed.   I think Satoshi erred too far on the side of anonymity....
390 2010-12-23 13:57:40 <mahound> i have received a transaction that is shown as "unconfirmed"
391 2010-12-23 13:57:43 <mahound> what does it mean?
392 2010-12-23 13:57:58 <EvanR-work> ThomasV: but your old wallet is unusable
393 2010-12-23 13:58:09 <EvanR-work> normally
394 2010-12-23 13:58:13 <bd_> mahound: it means that the transaction has yet to be confirmed by other nodes. It will generally gain one confirmation per 10 minutes on average; the more confirmations it has, the harder it is to "undo" it
395 2010-12-23 13:58:34 <bd_> EvanR-work: That's just a limitation of the current client. If you have the keys, you can reconstruct the transaction history from the block chain
396 2010-12-23 13:58:44 <bd_> that said, this becomes increasingly unfeasible as the block chain becomes larger and larger
397 2010-12-23 13:58:54 <mahound> bd_, but it's been more than 10 min already
398 2010-12-23 13:59:11 <bd_> mahound: on _average_ 10 minutes
399 2010-12-23 13:59:17 <bd_> it can go above or below
400 2010-12-23 13:59:18 <ThomasV> EvanR: this is precisely why I think new keypairs should not be generated on each transaction
401 2010-12-23 13:59:33 <bd_> ThomasV: ?
402 2010-12-23 13:59:38 <mahound> bd_, yeah, but it's been liek twice that ;) anyway, i'll wait
403 2010-12-23 14:00:49 <bd_> http://blockexplorer.com/ <-- last block was at 14:48:17UTC, was the txn after that?
404 2010-12-23 14:03:06 <ThomasV> gavinandresen:  I guess I will try to mess with the code so that my client does not use new keypairs for change; are there things that I need to know so that the network does not consider this as an attack ?
405 2010-12-23 14:03:34 <gavinandresen> Nope.  Network doesn't care.
406 2010-12-23 14:03:53 <EvanR-work> if you just use the same address for each transfer, will it still generate new keys?
407 2010-12-23 14:03:53 <ThomasV> what are the files I should dig in ?
408 2010-12-23 14:04:22 <ThomasV> EvanR-work: yes, as far as I understood
409 2010-12-23 14:05:26 <gavinandresen> ThomasV:  as a hack, I think having CWalletDB::KeepKey call CWalletDB::ReturnKey will do what you want.  But you might also want to change the timestamp on the key, so you rotate through your keypool keys.
410 2010-12-23 14:05:36 <gavinandresen> (see db.cpp, around line 990)
411 2010-12-23 14:06:53 <nanotube> gavinandresen: would be nice if that was a cli arg... 'bitcoind -reusekeys 1000' e.g., would not gen more than 1000 keys, and just reuse them from its pool.
412 2010-12-23 14:07:33 <gavinandresen> nanotube: sure would!
413 2010-12-23 14:09:08 <gavinandresen> Wouldn't be hard for an enterprising young C++ coder to submit a patch for that... hint... hint...    The hard part isn't writing the code, the hard part is doing lots of testing to make sure it behaves as expected, doesn't have some weird unintended consequence, etc etc.
414 2010-12-23 14:09:19 <nanotube> right
415 2010-12-23 14:09:50 <mahound> bd_, no, before
416 2010-12-23 14:09:50 <nanotube> speaking of patches... :)
417 2010-12-23 14:10:10 <mahound> bd_, anyway, i already have got 3 confirmations, so, getting closer
418 2010-12-23 14:10:25 <xelister> I would code above for 2000 btc (in middle of 2011.1 - coz still super bussy with other work now)
419 2010-12-23 14:10:59 <EvanR-work> the hard part is c++
420 2010-12-23 14:11:16 <EvanR-work> cobol of the 90s
421 2010-12-23 14:11:24 <xelister> EvanR-work: c++ rulez
422 2010-12-23 14:11:35 <xelister> C is the cobol of 90s
423 2010-12-23 14:11:41 <EvanR-work> uhm
424 2010-12-23 14:11:42 <EvanR-work> no
425 2010-12-23 14:12:02 <xelister> yea
426 2010-12-23 14:23:37 <Beeps> Hello everyone
427 2010-12-23 14:46:12 <ThomasV> does someone know why it was decided that the amount of bitcoins created is bounded ?
428 2010-12-23 14:46:42 <Kiba``> Don't know. Ask satoshi
429 2010-12-23 14:47:03 <ThomasV> is satoshi his nick ?
430 2010-12-23 14:47:19 <Kiba``> nobody knows
431 2010-12-23 14:47:41 <Kiba``> who Satoshi is
432 2010-12-23 14:47:46 <mahound> ThomasV, to avoid inflation?
433 2010-12-23 14:48:10 <ThomasV> mahadri: sure, but deflation is worse than inflation
434 2010-12-23 14:48:37 <ThomasV> err, sorry, I meant mahound
435 2010-12-23 14:49:38 <Kiba``> how can it be worse?
436 2010-12-23 14:49:41 <Kiba``> deflation is occuring
437 2010-12-23 14:49:50 <Kiba``> nobody in the bitcoin economy is worrying about it
438 2010-12-23 14:50:53 <Kiba``> indeed, everyone expects the bitcoin economy is going to deflate
439 2010-12-23 14:51:30 <mahound> makes sense, if the money supply is constant and there's value being introduced
440 2010-12-23 14:52:48 <mahound> ThomasV, i guess a limitless money supply would imply an authority to increase/decrease it when needed
441 2010-12-23 14:53:20 <ThomasV> deflation is an incentive to keep your coins instead of spending them, and that seriously harms an economy
442 2010-12-23 14:53:36 <ThomasV> mahound: not really
443 2010-12-23 14:54:08 <sgornick> In the past 24 hours, Bitcoin "supply" inflated at the annual rate of 53%   (144 blocks @ 50 BTC = 7,200 BTC added.  4,950,000 minted so far.  7200/4950000 * 365 = 53%
444 2010-12-23 14:54:09 <sgornick> And yet the USD/BTC is stable.
445 2010-12-23 14:55:54 <ThomasV> yes, but I think that when we approach the limit of the finite supply, we will run into problems
446 2010-12-23 14:56:01 <mahound> ThomasV,  is it an incentive to keep them? if prices are lowering... shouldn't people spend more
447 2010-12-23 14:56:10 <mahound> ?
448 2010-12-23 14:56:19 <Kiba``> finite supply is not a problem
449 2010-12-23 14:56:26 <Kiba``> it's just a matter of moving decimal spaces
450 2010-12-23 14:56:43 <Kiba``> and we add more decimal spaces if neccesary
451 2010-12-23 14:56:55 <ThomasV> mahound: no, it is the opposite. if you hold coins and you believe that their value will increase, then you do not spend them
452 2010-12-23 14:57:20 <Kiba``> ThomasV: we all have to spend them, eventually. The point of money is not to gather "value", it is to purchase goods and services
453 2010-12-23 14:57:37 <Kiba``> a person does not hold on to money as he starve. He will spend that money.
454 2010-12-23 14:58:28 <ThomasV> Kiba``: a starvation economy is not exactly the best thing you can wish for yourself
455 2010-12-23 14:58:41 <mahound> ThomasV, maybe for investors, but not for the regular consumer
456 2010-12-23 14:58:45 <Kiba``> ThomasV: All I am saying is that bitcoiners won't starve themsleves
457 2010-12-23 14:58:55 <Kiba``> they will purchase milks and other goods
458 2010-12-23 14:59:00 <Kiba``> they won't wait forever
459 2010-12-23 14:59:16 <mahound> well, i guess people won't be spending bitcoins on food that soon, but...
460 2010-12-23 14:59:40 <albatross> umm...why not? bitcoin is a secondary currency. you can always buy necessities with primary currency. no reason to spend bitcoin if you think their value will go up
461 2010-12-23 15:00:21 <mahound> albatross, yeah, that's what i meant with my last sentence
462 2010-12-23 15:00:44 <Kiba``> well, some people in the bitcoin economy is going to spend some on something, anyway
463 2010-12-23 15:01:11 <Kiba``> it's not a problem
464 2010-12-23 15:02:07 <mahound> in any case, if people are not willing to spend money, more deflation will follow
465 2010-12-23 15:02:08 <ThomasV> all I am saying is that an economy based on controlled inflation will grow faster
466 2010-12-23 15:02:56 <Kiba``> ThomasV: there would be less of an incentive to save.
467 2010-12-23 15:03:01 <mahound> controlled inflation would lead for a fight for cpu power
468 2010-12-23 15:03:09 <mahound> *to
469 2010-12-23 15:03:21 <Kiba``> saving is necceary for an economic to grow anyway
470 2010-12-23 15:03:33 <Kiba``> for an economy*
471 2010-12-23 15:03:49 <ThomasV> Kiba``: only if savings are invested
472 2010-12-23 15:03:57 <ThomasV> that's not the case here
473 2010-12-23 15:04:11 <mahound> if mining compensates, people will just mine, to the point at which it compensates so much that cpu power is super expensive
474 2010-12-23 15:04:12 <mahound> no?
475 2010-12-23 15:04:19 <ThomasV> you just accumulate coins hoping for their value to increase
476 2010-12-23 15:04:33 <Kiba``> ThomasV: well, you need saving for investment anyway
477 2010-12-23 15:04:41 <ThomasV> mahound: yes, for the moment, because mining is still possible
478 2010-12-23 15:04:59 <mahound> ThomasV, but controlled inflation would mean indefinite mining, no?
479 2010-12-23 15:05:21 <Kiba``> you need some mining to process transaction, mahound
480 2010-12-23 15:05:27 <ThomasV> mahound: the current scheme means indefininte mining too
481 2010-12-23 15:06:05 <Kiba``> some people will invest money to build new business
482 2010-12-23 15:06:08 <Kiba``> some people won't.
483 2010-12-23 15:06:49 <Kiba``> of course, there will be less investment, but it will be conservative ones..
484 2010-12-23 15:06:59 <Kiba``> dumb investment are less likely to succeed
485 2010-12-23 15:07:15 <mahound> ThomasV, yes, but as difficulty grows, the amount of money created by mining decreases as well, no?
486 2010-12-23 15:07:36 <Kiba``> mining will increase until it become unprofitable
487 2010-12-23 15:07:46 <Kiba``> some mine so they can ensure the integrity of bitcoin
488 2010-12-23 15:07:54 <ThomasV> mahound: yes, but mining remains indefininte, so that does not make a difference as long as indefininteness is concerned
489 2010-12-23 15:08:36 <Kiba``> anyway, I don't see why deflation is a serious concern. The bitcoin economy is still expanding
490 2010-12-23 15:09:29 <ThomasV> Kiba``: I think you are wrong. in a normal economy, currency is added by the central bank, in order to trade the new goods that are created.
491 2010-12-23 15:09:48 <ThomasV> deflation just paralyzes the economy. see 1929
492 2010-12-23 15:10:00 <Kiba``> 1929 was a result of economic intervention
493 2010-12-23 15:10:16 <ThomasV> hehe
494 2010-12-23 15:10:44 <mahound> ThomasV, i think deflation was more of a consequence of 1929 than a cause
495 2010-12-23 15:10:59 <ThomasV> mahound: indeed, but it did not help
496 2010-12-23 15:11:06 <Kiba``> and currently, the bitcoin economy had not been paralyzed as of yet
497 2010-12-23 15:11:31 <Kiba``> we're in a growth deflation economy anyway
498 2010-12-23 15:11:42 <ThomasV> Kiba``: for the moment
499 2010-12-23 15:11:58 <ThomasV> because mining is not neclectible
500 2010-12-23 15:12:05 <mahound> so, buy more coins, we're all gonna be millionaires ;)
501 2010-12-23 15:13:01 <mahound> kiba, oh really?
502 2010-12-23 15:13:16 <ThomasV> mahound: /me is going to deflate your dreams
503 2010-12-23 15:13:57 <ThomasV> if you want to be millionaires, you need the economy to grow, not to be paralyzed by deflation
504 2010-12-23 15:14:35 <ThomasV> you can have temporary deflation, as the scope of the bitcoin economy grows. but once it reaches steady state, you must produce goods
505 2010-12-23 15:14:36 <kiba> ThomasV: you can see bitcoiners investing in the growth of the economy in the Project Development section
506 2010-12-23 15:14:46 <ThomasV> and for that, deflation is a terrible idea
507 2010-12-23 15:15:10 <kiba> currently the goods that are being produced are not very capital intensive
508 2010-12-23 15:16:30 <ThomasV> because the economy is tiny and legally, ahem, borderline
509 2010-12-23 15:16:34 <ThomasV> :-)
510 2010-12-23 15:16:43 <kiba> well
511 2010-12-23 15:16:47 <kiba> we'll see what happens
512 2010-12-23 15:17:12 <kiba> it might cause a revision in mainstream economic thought
513 2010-12-23 15:17:52 <ThomasV> well, I think a revision in BTC creation is more likely to happen :-)
514 2010-12-23 15:18:39 <albatross> lol...thomasv, i tend to agree
515 2010-12-23 15:18:42 <ArtForz> not in bitcoin
516 2010-12-23 15:18:53 <mahound> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deflationary_spiral
517 2010-12-23 15:19:25 <mahound> kiba: where's that "project development" section?
518 2010-12-23 15:19:28 <albatross> thomasv: I also believe that the decentralized nature that is desired will disappear if bitcoin becomes mainstream
519 2010-12-23 15:20:27 <ThomasV> I do not know about decentralized nature ; maybe it is sustainable
520 2010-12-23 15:20:34 <kiba> mahound: it's in the forum
521 2010-12-23 15:20:48 <kiba> p2p = decentralized...roughly speaking
522 2010-12-23 15:21:30 <kiba> the problem with an inflationary currency is that early adopter incentive will disappear.
523 2010-12-23 15:22:01 <ThomasV> kiba: that's your problem as an early adopter
524 2010-12-23 15:22:21 <edcba> yes you still can have an advantage as being an early adopter
525 2010-12-23 15:22:26 <kiba> ThomasV: it's an incentive problem..how do you get people to use your currency?
526 2010-12-23 15:22:33 <ThomasV> with deflation, you cannot pay a fixed salary to someone
527 2010-12-23 15:23:24 <kiba> I am not sure how it actually matter. With inflation, you have to increase
528 2010-12-23 15:24:04 <ThomasV> and if people use your currency just because they believe they will become rich being early adopters, then it's not an economy, it's a ponzi scheme
529 2010-12-23 15:24:35 <kiba> but it is an economy. People are trading goods for bitcoin.
530 2010-12-23 15:24:43 <edcba> shouldn't a ponzi scheme make the last ppl completely losers ?
531 2010-12-23 15:24:48 <edcba> here it wouldn't
532 2010-12-23 15:25:38 <kiba> even the last people can get some bitcoin if they got desirable goods worth trading for
533 2010-12-23 15:26:29 <kiba> beside, being an early adopter have large risk, mainly the currency might fail
534 2010-12-23 15:26:42 <ThomasV> ok, a ponzi scheme might be an overstatement. but my point is that a controlled augmentation of the money supply would attract more people to it, rather than an economy where early adopters own everything
535 2010-12-23 15:26:45 <edcba> and might is underrated here i think :)
536 2010-12-23 15:27:03 <edcba> (kiba's might)
537 2010-12-23 15:27:15 <kiba> you cannot bootstrap an economy if you don't have early adopters
538 2010-12-23 15:27:31 <kiba> or it loses more people than it gain
539 2010-12-23 15:28:11 <edcba> yes i don't see a more realistic apt bootstrapping scheme
540 2010-12-23 15:28:14 <ThomasV> ok, I have to go now. bbl
541 2010-12-23 15:28:35 <ArtForz> hmmm, wouldn't the same argument work for(against?) gold as currency?
542 2010-12-23 15:29:54 <edcba> anyway i think bitcoin will fail technically :)
543 2010-12-23 15:30:15 <kiba> we don't know
544 2010-12-23 15:30:23 <edcba> i know i think that :)
545 2010-12-23 15:30:49 <kiba> beside, how do you propose to have capital intensive projects without saving?
546 2010-12-23 15:31:22 <edcba> you can work off hour on that
547 2010-12-23 15:31:29 <edcba> keeping your day job
548 2010-12-23 15:31:47 <fabianhjr> Hi, sup?
549 2010-12-23 15:32:02 <kiba> your job earn you some money, which some of it goes into saving
550 2010-12-23 15:32:42 <fabianhjr> ? You mean mining? Yeah, the pool just found a block! Though, I still have to wait for it to mature.
551 2010-12-23 15:33:16 <edcba> anyway economic theories aren't really interesting
552 2010-12-23 15:33:40 <edcba> all economic ppl here just want to do it their own way
553 2010-12-23 15:33:56 <edcba> they don't want to see the result of the experiment here :)
554 2010-12-23 15:34:27 <edcba> i think they are just pissed because they weren't early adopters
555 2010-12-23 15:35:39 <edcba> if they know it will fail they'd better the next bitcoin iteration with their own parameters
556 2010-12-23 15:35:46 <edcba> +prepare
557 2010-12-23 15:36:34 <sec^nd> hi
558 2010-12-23 15:36:37 <sec^nd> where is bitcoin market ?
559 2010-12-23 15:36:55 <kiba> bitcoinmarket.com
560 2010-12-23 15:37:10 <sec^nd> heh nvm
561 2010-12-23 15:37:12 <edcba> i think it needs a less complicated url
562 2010-12-23 15:37:15 <sec^nd> it was https and www.
563 2010-12-23 15:37:17 <edcba> it's too hard to memorize
564 2010-12-23 15:37:17 <Guest36632> it amazes me how people desire inflation over deflation
565 2010-12-23 15:37:34 <Guest36632> inflation is so socially destructive and always favors a select class
566 2010-12-23 15:37:55 <kiba> where would capital come from if your saving is eroded?
567 2010-12-23 15:38:03 <kiba> and most of your projects look profitable?
568 2010-12-23 15:38:07 <Guest36632> exactly
569 2010-12-23 15:38:48 <Guest36632> inflation redistributes real wealth from general users to insiders. deflation makes everyone's money increase in value equally
570 2010-12-23 15:38:59 <edcba> ok should our universe inflates or deflates ?
571 2010-12-23 15:39:27 <Guest36632> btc has all the ingredients for a fantastic success story..at least economically
572 2010-12-23 15:39:43 <kiba> if everyone save, everyone win!
573 2010-12-23 15:40:01 <kiba> if everyone borrows in an inflationary economy, everyone win?
574 2010-12-23 15:40:03 <albatross> guys...it's not like all this is just theorizing. This is based on economic knowledge and practice over hundreds of years. Deflation IS bad. Mild inflation IS good. These are fact
575 2010-12-23 15:40:15 <fabianhjr> kiba, wait, wouldn't that stall the economy? Bitcoins need transactions to be made!
576 2010-12-23 15:40:26 <Guest36632> false statement albatross
577 2010-12-23 15:40:30 <albatross> kiba: if everyone saves then nobody would be buying anything...it stalls the economy
578 2010-12-23 15:40:33 <kiba> albatross: economic reasoning is based on logics
579 2010-12-23 15:40:57 <kiba> albatross: it does not, everyone need to buy milks, foods, and eggs..
580 2010-12-23 15:40:59 <kiba> it just mean
581 2010-12-23 15:41:06 <kiba> that your time preference is a bit longer
582 2010-12-23 15:41:08 <Guest36632> the last 100 years have been extremely destructive for the common man
583 2010-12-23 15:41:26 <kiba> Guest36632: destructive? we're getting richer
584 2010-12-23 15:41:32 <kiba> but saving kinda sucks.
585 2010-12-23 15:41:38 <albatross> yes...so everyone would just buy necessities. what about guys who only know how to write computer software or do science or other shit that is not necessary. they would not get paid
586 2010-12-23 15:41:49 <kiba> wtf?
587 2010-12-23 15:41:51 <Guest36632> we're richer in spite of destructive inflation
588 2010-12-23 15:42:00 <kiba> albatross: some people like games
589 2010-12-23 15:42:10 <kiba> they can't wait for it
590 2010-12-23 15:42:20 <kiba> that why you see lot of people buying expensive game when they could have wait later
591 2010-12-23 15:42:24 <edcba> albatross: the problem is economy are based on real economies, not reproductibles ones
592 2010-12-23 15:42:51 <albatross> edcba: i don't understand. clarify?
593 2010-12-23 15:42:52 <Guest36632> anyway the hoarding/savings issue will go away as new institutions develop to lend out saved btc (btc banks)
594 2010-12-23 15:42:57 <kiba> nobody jsut buy neccesarites
595 2010-12-23 15:43:00 <kiba> that would assume
596 2010-12-23 15:43:01 <edcba> you need controlled economy if you want to experiment/validate theories
597 2010-12-23 15:43:13 <kiba> that human beings can just get by with mere neccesaries!
598 2010-12-23 15:43:15 <kiba> what nonsense!
599 2010-12-23 15:43:17 <kiba> they want sex
600 2010-12-23 15:43:21 <kiba> they want entertainment
601 2010-12-23 15:43:24 <kiba> and all these things
602 2010-12-23 15:43:41 <ArtForz> hookers and blow?
603 2010-12-23 15:43:47 <albatross> kiba: if my btc will get me one hooker today but three hookers tomorrow, why would i get one hooker today?
604 2010-12-23 15:43:47 <kiba> Exactly!
605 2010-12-23 15:43:59 <kiba> because, you prefer a hooker NOW
606 2010-12-23 15:44:04 <albatross> lol
607 2010-12-23 15:44:04 <Guest36632> haha
608 2010-12-23 15:44:11 <fabianhjr> kiba: saving to a degree is good. Telling people to 'save' on depressions imho is bad. Many businesses can break because of this in my point of view.
609 2010-12-23 15:44:11 <Guest36632> time preference baby
610 2010-12-23 15:44:19 <edcba> albatross: some study suggest extrovert ppl prefer to have one today than three tomorrow
611 2010-12-23 15:44:24 <edcba> and they are happier
612 2010-12-23 15:44:32 <Guest36632> that's only because we have a controlled banking system
613 2010-12-23 15:44:42 <edcba> because they won't wait angerly for the 3 hookers
614 2010-12-23 15:44:43 <kiba> all things being equal
615 2010-12-23 15:44:53 <kiba> human beings prefere things RIGHT NOW rather than later
616 2010-12-23 15:44:59 <kiba> that is time preference theory
617 2010-12-23 15:45:02 <Guest36632> if we had free floating interest rates -> more savings = low interest rates discourgaing further savings
618 2010-12-23 15:45:19 <Guest36632> less savings = higher interest rates encouraging more savings
619 2010-12-23 15:45:29 <mahound> kiba, if they didn't, people would be actually saving money, and we all can see they're not
620 2010-12-23 15:50:30 <kiba> people assume that human being's time preference extend forever and ever
621 2010-12-23 15:50:35 <kiba> of course, that's a bad assumption
622 2010-12-23 15:50:44 <Guest36632> it seems to be a prevalent myth
623 2010-12-23 15:51:19 <kiba> you know, we have a FINITE lifespan
624 2010-12-23 15:51:27 <Guest36632> anyway, i think the killer application of btc will be smart contracts
625 2010-12-23 15:51:38 <fabianhjr> What ya mean?
626 2010-12-23 15:51:46 <Guest36632> it looks like satoshi had this in mind when he created the scripting system
627 2010-12-23 15:52:17 <Guest36632> automatic escrows, third party arbitration, all manner of contractual arrangements enforced by the btc system
628 2010-12-23 15:53:07 <Guest36632> the need for costly government courts/police will go down as people can have trust through btc smart contract arrangements
629 2010-12-23 15:53:21 <Guest36632> a true agorist revolution
630 2010-12-23 15:54:18 <Guest36632> imo, satoshi's scope of vision appears to be extremely vast
631 2010-12-23 15:55:08 <Guest36632> future lawyers will be btc hackers
632 2010-12-23 15:55:36 <kiba> the future will be regulated by algorithms!
633 2010-12-23 15:57:30 <Guest36632> cryptoanarchy
634 2010-12-23 15:57:44 <wumpus> yeah he is quite visionary
635 2010-12-23 15:59:42 <Guest36632> i really wonder what satoshi's background is
636 2010-12-23 16:00:01 <kiba> he's probably a cipherpunk
637 2010-12-23 16:00:10 <kiba> err cypherpunk
638 2010-12-23 16:00:37 <kiba> my grpahic novel would start off with a PDA
639 2010-12-23 16:01:13 <kiba> disposing of a corporation's CEO for attempt takeover of a small home in the middle of a business district
640 2010-12-23 16:01:34 <Guest36632> if he's a cyperpunk, he/she must be in his 30s-40s i guess
641 2010-12-23 16:01:50 <Guest36632> haha that would be awesome kiba
642 2010-12-23 16:02:18 <Guest36632> even better if he's a state agent
643 2010-12-23 16:02:39 <Guest36632> final stages of alongside night
644 2010-12-23 16:02:42 <kiba> meh
645 2010-12-23 16:02:50 <kiba> he's just a smiley evil CEO
646 2010-12-23 16:54:42 <mahound> is there any other way to get data about the network (last transactions etc) without having a client running?
647 2010-12-23 16:54:57 <mahound> i mean, some kind of http gateway, etc
648 2010-12-23 16:54:59 <Asphodelia> http://blockexplorer.com/
649 2010-12-23 16:57:20 <mahound> hm... it'd be nice to have this in json or so :/
650 2010-12-23 17:00:35 <Asphodelia> What's your ultimate goal?
651 2010-12-23 17:00:58 <mahound> i wanted to do some stats on the evolution of the economy
652 2010-12-23 17:04:03 <donpdonp> mahound: http://blockexplorer.com/q
653 2010-12-23 17:04:36 <Asphodelia> If you want historical data, probably you should write a script to parse your local copy of the blockchain.
654 2010-12-23 17:04:44 <mahound> ok, thanks :)
655 2010-12-23 17:16:45 <albatross> it's been 35 minutes since last block..crazy
656 2010-12-23 17:19:11 <kiba> probabilities
657 2010-12-23 17:20:15 <albatross> it's a long time to wait for confirmation :(
658 2010-12-23 17:32:33 <gribble> 99083
659 2010-12-23 17:32:33 <nanotube> ;;bc,blocks
660 2010-12-23 17:54:22 <lfm> ;;bc,calc 155000
661 2010-12-23 17:54:23 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 155000 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 4 days, 15 hours, 29 minutes, and 8 seconds
662 2010-12-23 19:06:30 <thrashaholic> dwdollar1: thanks for mentioning bitcoin on ZH
663 2010-12-23 19:06:43 <dwdollar1> haha!
664 2010-12-23 19:06:45 <thrashaholic> and i mean that in the most sarcastic way possible.
665 2010-12-23 19:06:48 <dwdollar1> you saw that huh?
666 2010-12-23 19:06:52 <thrashaholic> of course i did
667 2010-12-23 19:06:53 <thrashaholic> :)
668 2010-12-23 19:07:19 <thrashaholic> kucinich used to be alright in my book - for a socialist
669 2010-12-23 19:07:25 <thrashaholic> now im gonna have to hate on him.
670 2010-12-23 19:08:04 <thrashaholic> wtf is  up with this new collapsed thread bullshit
671 2010-12-23 19:08:06 <thrashaholic> can't turn it off
672 2010-12-23 19:09:48 <thrashaholic> dwdollar1: better get your ass back on that thread and defend it, im not going to because i dont log into zh unless it's to troll statists.
673 2010-12-23 19:10:06 <dwdollar1> I was just looking at the comments.
674 2010-12-23 19:10:24 <dwdollar1> I get tired of refuting the same crap over and over.
675 2010-12-23 19:12:49 <nanotube> linky, anyone? :)
676 2010-12-23 19:13:22 <dwdollar1> http://www.zerohedge.com/article/contrarian-take-dennis-kucinichs-recent-attempt-end-fed#comments
677 2010-12-23 19:15:03 <thrashaholic> nanotube, im surprised you don't read zh day and night like i do lol
678 2010-12-23 19:15:13 <thrashaholic> being a real economist and all =D
679 2010-12-23 19:16:36 <newsham> zerohedge is amusing, but I wouldnt base a portfolio on it.
680 2010-12-23 19:18:20 <thrashaholic> only an idiot would
681 2010-12-23 19:20:43 <dwdollar1> I left a little something
682 2010-12-23 19:21:07 <kiba> the CIA have the WTF
683 2010-12-23 19:21:21 <kiba> WTF standing for Wikileak Task Force
684 2010-12-23 19:21:24 <dwdollar1> I'm addicted to zerohedge too
685 2010-12-23 19:24:33 <thrashaholic> lol
686 2010-12-23 19:24:41 <thrashaholic> you mean the CIA has the Wikileaks - period
687 2010-12-23 19:25:00 <thrashaholic> COINTELPRO bitches
688 2010-12-23 19:25:02 <thrashaholic> alive and well
689 2010-12-23 19:26:51 <thrashaholic> ugh you're going to make me login dwdollar1
690 2010-12-23 19:27:18 <dwdollar1> sorry, heh
691 2010-12-23 19:28:08 <EvanR-work> dwdollar1: bitcoin is fiat?
692 2010-12-23 19:28:33 <dwdollar1> well, we don't all agree:)
693 2010-12-23 19:28:46 <EvanR-work> as fiat as gold i guess
694 2010-12-23 19:28:57 <dwdollar1> I don't like the term fiat at all actually.
695 2010-12-23 19:29:09 <dwdollar1> but people use it all the time
696 2010-12-23 19:29:52 <EvanR-work> since getting into bitcoin ive had to fend off at least three occasions of people claiming that gold has intrinsic value
697 2010-12-23 19:30:04 <EvanR-work> is this widespread?
698 2010-12-23 19:30:47 <EvanR-work> (as opposed to bitcoin which supposedly has none)
699 2010-12-23 19:31:17 <EvanR-work> zerohedge seems to like gold
700 2010-12-23 19:31:24 <dwdollar1> I don't believe in intrinsic value but I think that's a minority opinion, even here
701 2010-12-23 19:31:47 <dwdollar1> It seems most people think it's backed by power usage.
702 2010-12-23 19:31:59 <ArtForz> I dont think intrinsic value affects usefulness of a currency much
703 2010-12-23 19:32:00 <EvanR-work> lol
704 2010-12-23 19:32:10 <wumpus> intrinsic value is a philosophical concept anyway
705 2010-12-23 19:32:15 <wumpus> ArtForz: exactly
706 2010-12-23 19:32:27 <EvanR-work> bitcoins cant be redeemed for a fixed amount of energy
707 2010-12-23 19:33:13 <wumpus> but does energy have intrinsic value?
708 2010-12-23 19:33:50 <EvanR-work> well a lightning bolt just blew up my house, thats a lot of negative value
709 2010-12-23 19:34:03 <wumpus> hehe
710 2010-12-23 19:34:27 <wumpus> so buying bitcoins should actually give me money
711 2010-12-23 19:34:37 <wumpus> because they have negative intrinsic value :P
712 2010-12-23 19:35:23 <EvanR-work> what i was trying to say was energy is only as valuable as it is useful to you or something who will trade. the famous einstein mass-energy of a penny is phenomenal and essentially useless
713 2010-12-23 19:36:08 <wumpus> well if you want to create mass bitcoins energy value would be neglectible
714 2010-12-23 19:36:25 <wumpus> c^2 is a lot :)
715 2010-12-23 19:37:31 <dwdollar1> But on the flip side, it could be this belief of intrinsic value that makes currency possible.  Otherwise people would prefer barter.
716 2010-12-23 19:37:56 <EvanR-work> i thought currency was for convenience
717 2010-12-23 19:38:09 <EvanR-work> a representation of barter
718 2010-12-23 19:38:12 <wumpus> so you need a 'belief' to use currency at all?
719 2010-12-23 19:38:36 <dwdollar1> maybe
720 2010-12-23 19:38:55 <wumpus> well, in a way you are right, currencies are based on trust in  a central bank
721 2010-12-23 19:38:58 <wumpus> but that's not intrinsic value
722 2010-12-23 19:39:21 <EvanR-work> they used to be based on trust in gold
723 2010-12-23 19:39:38 <wumpus> that's a long time ago
724 2010-12-23 19:39:44 <wumpus> and only in the US, I think
725 2010-12-23 19:39:54 <thrashaholic> no
726 2010-12-23 19:39:56 <EvanR-work> no the gold standard was widespread
727 2010-12-23 19:40:00 <EvanR-work> also silver
728 2010-12-23 19:40:07 <thrashaholic> you're a little lax on your monetary history there, wumpus
729 2010-12-23 19:40:23 <wumpus> yeah that could be true :)
730 2010-12-23 19:40:41 <kiba> intristic value
731 2010-12-23 19:40:51 <thrashaholic> america originally had a pure fiat system: colonial scrip, which was essentially the real reason for the revolution
732 2010-12-23 19:40:59 <wumpus> I know we had gold currency here at some point in history not to long ago in the netherlands, but I don't know whether the non-gold currency was ever redeemable for gold
733 2010-12-23 19:41:04 <kiba> we could use bitcoin blockchain as a time stamping service
734 2010-12-23 19:41:34 <thrashaholic> the constitution mandates a bi-metallic standard, or a silver standard depending on how you interperet it
735 2010-12-23 19:41:58 <thrashaholic> most of the smart founders were against both fiat and gold backed currencies
736 2010-12-23 19:41:59 <kiba> intristic value is really what allow currencies to bootstrap from a BARTER economy
737 2010-12-23 19:42:02 <kiba> we don't live in one
738 2010-12-23 19:42:27 <sec^nd> hello
739 2010-12-23 19:42:53 <kiba> gold is excellent for that because in an event of an economic collapse..it would be the currency of choice...
740 2010-12-23 19:43:09 <thrashaholic> gold only has that status because of history
741 2010-12-23 19:43:13 <thrashaholic> it could've been anything
742 2010-12-23 19:43:19 <thrashaholic> but since it does, well it does
743 2010-12-23 19:43:30 <thrashaholic> thousands of years of collective memory cant be changed
744 2010-12-23 19:43:56 <thrashaholic> humans love shiny rocks
745 2010-12-23 19:44:00 <thrashaholic> must be in our dna.
746 2010-12-23 19:44:35 <wumpus> kiba: that depends, it could just as well be bottle caps :)
747 2010-12-23 19:45:11 <sec^nd> oooohhh shiny        my precious
748 2010-12-23 19:45:30 <wumpus> everything that is hard to produce after a collapse could be 'currency'
749 2010-12-23 19:45:49 <sec^nd> wine
750 2010-12-23 19:45:52 <wumpus> I don't get people's obsession with gold sometimes
751 2010-12-23 19:45:55 <sec^nd> food
752 2010-12-23 19:45:59 <sec^nd> barter system
753 2010-12-23 19:46:25 <ArtForz> wumpus: same
754 2010-12-23 19:46:26 <sef_> food and wine spoil
755 2010-12-23 19:46:38 <sec^nd> is there a bitcoin site in i2p ?
756 2010-12-23 19:46:46 <sef_> bottle caps cannot be easily divided
757 2010-12-23 19:47:03 <wumpus> gold coins can also be easily divided and 'scraped'
758 2010-12-23 19:47:13 <wumpus> that was actually a big problem back when it was legal tender
759 2010-12-23 19:47:38 <sef_> why is divisibility a problem? it makes trade easier
760 2010-12-23 19:48:32 <wumpus> well it can be a problem because you can make smaller coins that look like the original ones
761 2010-12-23 19:48:51 <sec^nd> skinnier
762 2010-12-23 19:49:01 <wumpus> so you have to weigh very carefully, and even check the composition in case of gold
763 2010-12-23 19:49:03 <sec^nd> cut quarter in half and now you have two
764 2010-12-23 19:49:06 <sef_> true - but someone with a scale could guard against that
765 2010-12-23 19:49:13 <sef_> right
766 2010-12-23 19:49:39 <EvanR-work> if everyone accepts it, its currency. wine would be hard for everyone to accept
767 2010-12-23 19:49:49 <thrashaholic> wumpus: composition check is done by weight
768 2010-12-23 19:50:01 <EvanR-work> also making change
769 2010-12-23 19:50:19 <thrashaholic> making change, and having smaller denominations is the reason you desire fractioning
770 2010-12-23 19:50:33 <sef_> these are properties that gold has and explains its original adoption as money
771 2010-12-23 19:50:41 <sef_> hence the 'obsession'
772 2010-12-23 19:50:44 <thrashaholic> it is impossible to destroy
773 2010-12-23 19:51:37 <sef_> of course, btc has these properties plus instantaneous electronic transport
774 2010-12-23 19:51:50 <thrashaholic> of course
775 2010-12-23 19:51:54 <thrashaholic> but it's not tangible or shiny ;)
776 2010-12-23 19:51:59 <ArtForz> what is impossible to destroy?
777 2010-12-23 19:52:11 <thrashaholic> gold, for all practical intents and purposes
778 2010-12-23 19:52:20 <thrashaholic> you can't just burn it into nothing
779 2010-12-23 19:52:22 <ArtForz> fission works
780 2010-12-23 19:52:22 <thrashaholic> or smash it away
781 2010-12-23 19:52:24 <sef_> yeah, btc doesn't have that weight in your hand feel
782 2010-12-23 19:52:28 <thrashaholic> like i said
783 2010-12-23 19:52:31 <thrashaholic> practical
784 2010-12-23 19:52:36 <EvanR-work> ocean
785 2010-12-23 19:52:40 <EvanR-work> we have several
786 2010-12-23 19:52:41 <thrashaholic> its not destroyed is it?
787 2010-12-23 19:52:53 <EvanR-work> as destroyed as bitcoins sent to a random address
788 2010-12-23 19:52:55 <thrashaholic> it's sitting there on the ocean floor, ready for a treasure hunter to come and pick up
789 2010-12-23 19:53:01 <thrashaholic> hardly
790 2010-12-23 19:53:03 <EvanR-work> maybe in the year 3000
791 2010-12-23 19:53:03 <kiba> bitcoin are never destroyed
792 2010-12-23 19:53:09 <wumpus> you could dissolve it into the ocean
793 2010-12-23 19:53:13 <kiba> only lost
794 2010-12-23 19:53:13 <wumpus> no way to get it back
795 2010-12-23 19:53:17 <thrashaholic> you can't dissolve gold in the ocean
796 2010-12-23 19:53:26 <kiba> remember
797 2010-12-23 19:53:32 <wumpus> actually you can there's a lot of gold already in it
798 2010-12-23 19:53:39 <thrashaholic> omg
799 2010-12-23 19:53:42 <kiba> you can't destroy matter, right?
800 2010-12-23 19:53:48 <kiba> well, you could convert it into energy
801 2010-12-23 19:53:57 <EvanR-work> theres nuclear reactions
802 2010-12-23 19:53:59 <kiba> in 50 years
803 2010-12-23 19:54:02 <wumpus> you can't extract it though without taking more energy then you'd earn in gold
804 2010-12-23 19:54:13 <kiba> you could have deepsea vessel that extract gold
805 2010-12-23 19:54:51 <kiba> there's lot of energy reserve siting at the bottom of the ocean I think
806 2010-12-23 19:54:53 <kiba> methane gas
807 2010-12-23 19:55:33 <EvanR-work> cost of production isnt at issue, is it
808 2010-12-23 19:55:41 <EvanR-work> i guess unless its zero
809 2010-12-23 19:55:49 <wumpus> http://www.e-goldprospecting.com/html/extracting_gold_from_the_sea.html
810 2010-12-23 19:57:41 <ArtForz> and yeah, nuclear works
811 2010-12-23 19:57:58 <kiba> nuclear works?
812 2010-12-23 19:58:25 <ArtForz> for destroying gold :P
813 2010-12-23 19:58:31 <thrashaholic> its hardly practical
814 2010-12-23 19:58:31 <wumpus> anyway, why would you want to destroy a currency in the first place
815 2010-12-23 19:58:51 <ArtForz> 197 Au is stable, 198Au decays to 198Hg
816 2010-12-23 19:59:27 <kiba> mercury?
817 2010-12-23 19:59:31 <ArtForz> yep
818 2010-12-23 19:59:53 <ArtForz> backwards alchemy
819 2010-12-23 19:59:59 <thrashaholic> haha
820 2010-12-23 20:00:01 <kiba> lol
821 2010-12-23 20:00:02 <thrashaholic> that's the easy part :)
822 2010-12-23 20:00:24 <wumpus> heh
823 2010-12-23 20:00:37 <Cdh> i think i should buy a nvidia card next
824 2010-12-23 20:00:51 <wumpus> why?
825 2010-12-23 20:00:53 <Cdh> http://pastebin.com/4zfHkqjv
826 2010-12-23 20:00:54 <kiba> for bitcoin mining?
827 2010-12-23 20:01:01 <Cdh> for any use
828 2010-12-23 20:01:35 <wumpus> well yes nvidia drivers for linux are stable and work well
829 2010-12-23 20:01:52 <wumpus> you can't say the same about ATI's crap :)
830 2010-12-23 20:02:00 <ArtForz> removing one neutron would be kinda useful
831 2010-12-23 20:02:01 <Cdh> BUG: scheduling while atomic: X/4405/0x00000002
832 2010-12-23 20:02:04 <Cdh> seems serious
833 2010-12-23 20:02:29 <ArtForz> 196Au decays to 196Pt (which is stable)
834 2010-12-23 20:02:56 <wumpus> can you also make something decay into Au?
835 2010-12-23 20:02:58 <kiba> Plotiumnum?
836 2010-12-23 20:03:06 <ArtForz> Platinum
837 2010-12-23 20:03:09 <kiba> ah
838 2010-12-23 20:04:38 <wumpus> polonium is Po :)
839 2010-12-23 20:04:42 <thrashaholic> ArtForz: get on that :)
840 2010-12-23 20:09:17 <ArtForz> I think a few crazy russians already did
841 2010-12-23 20:11:23 <Diablo-D3> hrm
842 2010-12-23 20:11:30 <thrashaholic> fission platinoids
843 2010-12-23 20:11:31 <Diablo-D3> I think I mau have fixed the fucking race issue
844 2010-12-23 20:11:33 <thrashaholic> interesting
845 2010-12-23 20:11:34 <Diablo-D3> ysing
846 2010-12-23 20:11:37 <Diablo-D3> using
847 2010-12-23 20:11:43 <Diablo-D3> entirely too much code
848 2010-12-23 20:20:30 <ArtForz> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/20974/240793.aspx#240793
849 2010-12-23 20:27:59 <Diablo-D3> "That would be -1 times. It turned the computer on because it overheated?"
850 2010-12-23 20:28:09 <Diablo-D3> that sounds like an nvidia feature >_>
851 2010-12-23 20:28:33 <ArtForz> needs more bacon
852 2010-12-23 20:29:36 <Diablo-D3> fuck
853 2010-12-23 20:29:43 <Diablo-D3> someone gets to the nvidia joke at the bottom of the thread
854 2010-12-23 20:29:50 <Diablo-D3> and executed it better than me
855 2010-12-23 20:38:50 <Cdh> but nvidia cards do at least work
856 2010-12-23 20:39:03 <Cdh> not the most efficient but they are stable
857 2010-12-23 20:39:12 <Diablo-D3> work? stable?
858 2010-12-23 20:39:13 <Diablo-D3> bwhahahah