1 2010-12-25 00:12:03 <necrodearia> Perhaps 'BTC' could be established for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_4217#Active_codes
  2 2010-12-25 00:24:58 <Sirius_> somebody on the forum said "BTC" doesn't conform to the standard
  3 2010-12-25 00:25:17 <Sirius_> or was already taken or something
  4 2010-12-25 00:25:30 <Sirius_> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1446.0
  5 2010-12-25 00:25:32 <bitbot> "BTC" and ISO 4217
  6 2010-12-25 00:26:42 <Sirius_> BT is the country code for bhutan... what's the C for? :)
  7 2010-12-25 00:26:49 <Sirius_> Bhutan Coin?
  8 2010-12-25 00:27:06 <Sirius_> Bhutcoin
  9 2010-12-25 00:30:00 <Kiba> no
 10 2010-12-25 00:30:11 <Kiba> Ngultrum is the name of their currency
 11 2010-12-25 00:31:00 <Kiba> their economy happens to be one of the smallest in the world, but they're also the second fastest growing economy in the world
 12 2010-12-25 00:32:09 <theymos> So their currency code is BTN -- no real confusion.
 13 2010-12-25 00:33:49 <INEEDMONEY1> call it CIM
 14 2010-12-25 00:33:51 <INEEDMONEY1> crazy internet money
 15 2010-12-25 00:34:55 <necrodearia> If you were to offer bitcoins and ask for someone to buy a pizza for you, how would you label or name the bitcoin amount specified?
 16 2010-12-25 00:36:56 <genjix> btc
 17 2010-12-25 00:37:08 <Kiba> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nauru
 18 2010-12-25 00:37:17 <Kiba> I believe we are bigger than the economy of nauru
 19 2010-12-25 00:39:05 <necrodearia> Specifically, if you were filling out a form that allowed you to prepare an order for pizza in which you intend to offer or buy with bitcoins, what question or label seems most related to offering a bitcoin value?
 20 2010-12-25 00:43:55 <theymos> On a pre-printed form I would just write "bitcoins" out in full.
 21 2010-12-25 00:49:26 <theymos> Sirius_: On the forum, the blue star pips that moderators have is strange-looking, since every other user group has the coin pips. Can you change that?
 22 2010-12-25 01:03:04 <Kiba> I luv tvtropes
 23 2010-12-25 01:29:10 <INEEDMONEY> anyone who would like to be part of an anarchist trade syndicate, join #highdeas
 24 2010-12-25 01:29:18 <INEEDMONEY> ENDADVERTISEMENT
 25 2010-12-25 03:09:22 <lolcat^> Is it expencive to wire money into mtgox? And out?
 26 2010-12-25 03:12:59 <Cusipzzz> no...he charges 15$ for domestic wires. plus whatever your bank charges
 27 2010-12-25 05:10:56 <BoBeR> hai
 28 2010-12-25 05:10:59 <BoBeR> ihs the 25th
 29 2010-12-25 05:11:11 <BoBeR> i found a ardiuno uno under my tree
 30 2010-12-25 05:11:13 <BoBeR> what do?
 31 2010-12-25 05:11:19 <BoBeR> what the first thing i should make
 32 2010-12-25 05:14:03 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * re7c6c51 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Further improve how nonce base is managed - http://bit.ly/e7gMGw
 33 2010-12-25 05:16:20 <doublec> a grammar checker?
 34 2010-12-25 06:43:52 <caracrist> hi ppl, i have a technical question about the client and coins transfer, is it a corret place to ask?
 35 2010-12-25 06:44:25 <theymos> Yes.
 36 2010-12-25 06:46:17 <caracrist> good, I have a client installed. There is no options of saving or accessing any files. So where are the coins actually stored and how can i access the same account on different PC?
 37 2010-12-25 06:47:42 <BoBeR> #bitcoin-otc
 38 2010-12-25 06:48:24 <theymos> Your account data is stored in the wallet.dat file in the Bitcoin data directory. This is the file you need to back up. However, you can't use the same account on two different computers.
 39 2010-12-25 06:48:59 <theymos> If you need to use bitcoins on more than one computer, you can use a https://www.mybitcoin.com/ account.
 40 2010-12-25 06:50:33 <grondilu> Hi, can't we send amounts with a precision smaller than 0.01 BTC already ?
 41 2010-12-25 06:51:04 <grondilu> I've tried and it was rounded :(
 42 2010-12-25 06:51:18 <caracrist> how can I find that file? where is "Bitcoin data directory"?
 43 2010-12-25 06:51:23 <theymos> grondilu: Not with unmodified Bitcoin. If you compile a custom version, you can send these transactions, but no generators will accept them. Probably you'll have to wait until you generate your own block.
 44 2010-12-25 06:51:58 <theymos> caracrist: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Backup#Locating_BitCoin_s_data_directory
 45 2010-12-25 06:52:18 <caracrist> thank you!
 46 2010-12-25 06:55:04 <caracrist> are you planning to add backup features to the client?
 47 2010-12-25 06:57:12 <theymos> What kind of features do you need? (I'm not a developer, so I'm not planning anything.)
 48 2010-12-25 06:57:56 <caracrist> :)
 49 2010-12-25 06:59:38 <caracrist> simpliest one can be an option to send encrypted(by mail) and at least option to open file(not just use the only default location...
 50 2010-12-25 07:02:58 <theymos> Currently Bitcoin does no encryption, and there've been problems with getting encryption to work cross-platform, so probably there won't be any encryption for a long time. There's already an API command to copy your wallet: backupwallet. This might get a GUI element at some point.
 51 2010-12-25 07:12:21 <lfm> caracrist: there are options to access files in other than default locations from the command line
 52 2010-12-25 07:19:20 <Lysacor> ;;bc,stats
 53 2010-12-25 07:19:23 <gribble> Current Blocks: 99319 | Current Difficulty: 14484.16236123 | Next Difficulty At Block: 100799 | Next Difficulty In: 1480 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 21 hours, 12 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 15097.69525510
 54 2010-12-25 07:24:26 <BoBeR> who is an admin of bitcoin forum
 55 2010-12-25 08:29:59 <mizerydearia> BoBeR, Sirius_ is
 56 2010-12-25 08:30:34 <mizerydearia> ;diff
 57 2010-12-25 08:30:36 <bitbot> diff is http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=difficulty
 58 2010-12-25 08:30:48 <BoBeR> hai
 59 2010-12-25 08:30:49 <mizerydearia> ;diffnum
 60 2010-12-25 08:30:51 <bitbot> 14,484.16236123000089719425886869430542
 61 2010-12-25 09:48:32 <BoBeR> its the 25th
 62 2010-12-25 09:48:41 <BoBeR> im missing around on an arduine
 63 2010-12-25 09:48:43 <BoBeR> im missing around on an arduino
 64 2010-12-25 09:54:22 <phillipsjk> I was babbling in #bitcoin-discussion (again) and didn't get a response to a techical question: who determines the difficulty? The clients or some central control server over IRC?
 65 2010-12-25 09:55:54 <lfm> what you think you'll do with arduino?
 66 2010-12-25 09:56:57 <phillipsjk> isn't that a micro-processor operating at 20Mhz?
 67 2010-12-25 09:57:20 <lfm> ya something like that
 68 2010-12-25 09:57:37 <phillipsjk> You may be able to make soem kind of e-cash "thin client"
 69 2010-12-25 09:58:10 <arcatan> oooh, interesting idea
 70 2010-12-25 09:58:24 <lfm> youd need some sort of internet connection
 71 2010-12-25 09:59:19 <phillipsjk> On the forums there was discussion carrying around pre-computed tokens of some kind.
 72 2010-12-25 09:59:30 <arcatan> you can get an Ethernet or WiFi shield for it
 73 2010-12-25 09:59:38 <phillipsjk> woun't not be able to verify without Internet though.
 74 2010-12-25 09:59:52 <arcatan> shield is kind of an arduino peripheral
 75 2010-12-25 10:00:34 <lfm> wifi prolly cost more than arduino
 76 2010-12-25 10:00:50 <arcatan> probably yeah
 77 2010-12-25 10:02:01 <lfm> what you think of boxing day sale of xfx 5830 for $115
 78 2010-12-25 10:02:57 <lfm> oh $120 actually
 79 2010-12-25 10:03:10 <LobsterMan> phillipsjk the diff is determined automatically by the network
 80 2010-12-25 10:03:14 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
 81 2010-12-25 10:03:16 <gribble> Current Blocks: 99347 | Current Difficulty: 14484.16236123 | Next Difficulty At Block: 100799 | Next Difficulty In: 1452 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 11 hours, 53 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 15388.50783595
 82 2010-12-25 10:03:33 <lfm> LobsterMan: ya, so?
 83 2010-12-25 10:03:34 <sipa1024> LobsterMan: clients who have the block chain can determine it for themselves
 84 2010-12-25 10:03:41 <LobsterMan> [05:54] <phillipsjk> I was babbling in #bitcoin-discussion (again) and didn't get a response to a techical question: who determines the difficulty? The clients or some central control server over IRC?
 85 2010-12-25 10:03:48 <sipa1024> but how is this communicated to others?
 86 2010-12-25 10:04:10 <sipa1024> or do currently all connected clients download the whole blockchain?
 87 2010-12-25 10:04:23 <lfm> LobsterMan: it is specified calculation that all nodes do and verify
 88 2010-12-25 10:04:48 <LobsterMan> i was answering phillipsjk <_<
 89 2010-12-25 10:04:53 <phillipsjk> :)
 90 2010-12-25 10:05:03 <lfm> sipa1024: all connected nodes get whole block chain
 91 2010-12-25 10:05:14 <sipa1024> will that remain necessary?
 92 2010-12-25 10:05:53 <phillipsjk> *must be
 93 2010-12-25 10:06:10 <lfm> sipa1024: Not sure. Some old transactions may be dropped but I think you still need the full chain of block headers
 94 2010-12-25 10:06:22 <phillipsjk> I may not be completely understanding the mercle tree though.
 95 2010-12-25 10:06:47 <sipa1024> it's an efficient hash for the list of transactions
 96 2010-12-25 10:07:10 <lfm> phillipsjk: ya, it is the merkle tree that allows the dropping of old transactions
 97 2010-12-25 10:07:39 <sipa1024> if you drop transactions, the merkle root changes, and your block becomes invalid
 98 2010-12-25 10:07:48 <phillipsjk> If the coin info is dropped, how do you know who "owns" them if they are never spent?
 99 2010-12-25 10:08:24 <lfm> sipa1024: no, you keep the merkle tree the same, just have placeholders for dropped transations
100 2010-12-25 10:08:35 <sipa1024> ah
101 2010-12-25 10:09:12 <lfm> phillipsjk: if they are not spent then you need to keep the records. the ones you can drop are old superceded transactions
102 2010-12-25 10:09:29 <phillipsjk> ok.
103 2010-12-25 10:09:56 <phillipsjk> I suppose that is (one of the reasons) why the coins are capped.
104 2010-12-25 10:10:25 <lfm> phillipsjk: no, i dont think there is a connection there
105 2010-12-25 10:12:11 <sipa1024> when is a transaction superceded?
106 2010-12-25 10:13:49 <lfm> sipa1024: old transactions are used as inputs and the outputs are generally two parts. the spent part you send to someone else and a "change" left over that you get back, once the new transaction is finalized and verified you can drop the input transactions values
107 2010-12-25 10:15:55 <lfm> why would anyone change their nick from sneak to Guest41438 ?
108 2010-12-25 10:16:32 <phillipsjk> Have people investigated the taximplications of bicoin? With rapid deflation, you can be on the hook for a lot of money in your national currency, denpending when you have to calculate them as income.
109 2010-12-25 10:17:06 <phillipsjk> It shouldn't be too bad if you only have to report upon conversion htough.
110 2010-12-25 10:18:31 <lfm> ya I think they would accept the exchange rate that you actually got, of course you should keep records
111 2010-12-25 10:19:46 <phillipsjk> I'm afraid if I ask, the answer will be "don't do that" on principle ;)
112 2010-12-25 10:20:33 <lfm> easier to get forgivness than permission eh?
113 2010-12-25 10:20:42 <phillipsjk> lfm: the problem is if you are acutally doing work for bitcions, you are supposed to report your income. I'd have to read up on the local tax code.
114 2010-12-25 10:21:33 <lfm> phillipsjk: ya, and your sposed to collect GST/VAT in some places
115 2010-12-25 10:22:43 <phillipsjk> I didn't think of that. Apparently there is a $30,000 exemption or something for that here (Canada) (don't quote me on the exact number).
116 2010-12-25 10:24:00 <lfm> thatd make sense. tax collectors dont get outa bed for less than 30,000
117 2010-12-25 10:24:43 <phillipsjk> I think it is designed to catch businesses, but not small private sales.
118 2010-12-25 10:26:49 <phillipsjk> I may put a bitcion section on my website in the coming weeks.
119 2010-12-25 10:27:19 <lfm> let us know
120 2010-12-25 10:28:44 <phillipsjk> It would also discuss how the bitcion protocol is limited to about 1000-50000 miners (13000 expected-> 3 month payback period) at any given time.
121 2010-12-25 10:29:23 <lfm> how do you figure that?
122 2010-12-25 10:30:19 <phillipsjk> Poeple won't be minig without some reasonable chance of getting a return on investment. There are only 6 "winners" per hour.
123 2010-12-25 10:30:55 <phillipsjk> It is a lot less centralized than current currencies, so is still an improvement.
124 2010-12-25 10:31:34 <lfm> phillipsjk: it seems you neglect that it isnt evenly distributed
125 2010-12-25 10:31:56 <phillipsjk> That limitation actually makes me feel better about the protocol: it means the average user won't have to worry about burning CPU time: capacity will be added in proportion to value.
126 2010-12-25 10:32:05 <lfm> also how do you count the "pools"?
127 2010-12-25 10:32:40 <phillipsjk> A pool counts as 1 (because the pool admin is a trusted thrid party).
128 2010-12-25 10:32:49 <lfm> k
129 2010-12-25 10:33:46 <sipa1024> phillipsjk: i don't get that remark about average users
130 2010-12-25 10:34:29 <phillipsjk> If it becomes a mjor currency, there will be hundrend of millions of users, but less than a million will be actively mining.
131 2010-12-25 10:34:51 <lfm> phillipsjk: he is makeing an assumption that people wont stick with mining if they dont win a block at least every 3 months
132 2010-12-25 10:35:33 <sipa1024> i think some enthousiasts may keep mining
133 2010-12-25 10:35:40 <phillipsjk> Yes: that is the time-frame businesses thend to do short-term planning for.
134 2010-12-25 10:36:43 <phillipsjk> sipa1024: If they can't compete with the big boys, they will only get a block every 2000 days or so. They get lost in the noise.
135 2010-12-25 10:36:53 <lfm> it is a wild ass guess but it may actually relate to the hypothisis that people wont mine if they spend more on their power bill for mining than they gain from mining
136 2010-12-25 10:38:02 <caracrist> don't forget about loss of bitcoins in many cases, like hardware problems...
137 2010-12-25 10:38:03 <sipa1024> that way, mining will eventually be limited to those who can achieve the highest power-efficiency for mining, ie. those with the most recent hardware
138 2010-12-25 10:38:22 <lfm> and the lowest power rates
139 2010-12-25 10:39:02 <phillipsjk> "he" is me, and that is part of it. I am also concerned about the need to oversize everybody's computer to keep the monatary system working: that would be inefficient. It makes sense for large institutions to take over eventually.
140 2010-12-25 10:39:58 <phillipsjk> The increased number of participants implies an oliogarchy can not be easily formed.
141 2010-12-25 10:41:06 <lfm> well if any one entity ever controls more than 50% it could take over
142 2010-12-25 10:41:39 <lfm> its like democracy
143 2010-12-25 10:41:47 <phillipsjk> lfm: everybody using the system woulkd have a strong incentive to prevent that from happening.
144 2010-12-25 10:42:40 <lfm> phillipsjk: ya, its like democracy, the minorities would protest
145 2010-12-25 10:44:27 <phillipsjk> assuming the pool operators can be trusted, the "long tail" of consumer (or business) computers can probably defeat one large entity.
146 2010-12-25 10:44:48 <lfm> well we hope so anyway
147 2010-12-25 10:45:49 <sipa1024> if the long tail becomes large enough
148 2010-12-25 10:46:13 <sipa1024> however, that would imply that their gains from will be almost zero
149 2010-12-25 10:46:21 <sipa1024> *mining
150 2010-12-25 10:46:47 <sipa1024> and that "keeping the network independent" is enough motivation to spend power and cpu/gup cycles on it
151 2010-12-25 10:46:56 <phillipsjk> IMO, if the system is dominated by one entity, every user will have an inclentive to run thier own miner if only to keep transaction fees low.
152 2010-12-25 10:47:29 <BoBeR> is it 7 am yet
153 2010-12-25 10:47:35 <sipa1024> but what if one seemingly good entity starts donation gpu time and build a farm
154 2010-12-25 10:47:38 <phillipsjk> Which timezone?
155 2010-12-25 10:47:41 <BoBeR> im staying up all night so i can open presents
156 2010-12-25 10:47:44 <BoBeR> EST
157 2010-12-25 10:47:53 <phillipsjk> one more hour
158 2010-12-25 10:48:02 <BoBeR> no way
159 2010-12-25 10:48:07 <phillipsjk> ooop 13 minute
160 2010-12-25 10:48:09 <BoBeR> last time i asked it was 6 15
161 2010-12-25 10:48:14 <BoBeR> sick buzz
162 2010-12-25 10:48:22 <BoBeR> ALL NIGHTER FTW
163 2010-12-25 10:48:29 <sipa1024> BoBeR: don't you have a clock?
164 2010-12-25 10:48:35 <BoBeR> i was messing around with an arduino
165 2010-12-25 10:48:40 <phillipsjk> i looked only at the hour, not minutes
166 2010-12-25 10:48:42 <BoBeR> the one on my pc corner is missing
167 2010-12-25 10:48:51 <sipa1024> i have one in my irc client :)
168 2010-12-25 10:48:57 <BoBeR> and the one in my room is on the selve
169 2010-12-25 10:49:06 <sipa1024> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/est.html
170 2010-12-25 10:49:07 <BoBeR> im lienig in bed with my laptop
171 2010-12-25 10:49:22 <lfm> 4:48 here
172 2010-12-25 10:49:32 <sipa1024> anyway, 10 minutes 30 seconds left
173 2010-12-25 10:49:54 <phillipsjk> I work nights, so normally go to sleep at ~4am
174 2010-12-25 10:49:58 <lfm> I always advise parents to outlaw computers in the bedroom
175 2010-12-25 10:50:13 <sipa1024> how old are you, BoBeR? :)
176 2010-12-25 10:50:42 <BoBeR> 17
177 2010-12-25 10:51:00 <BoBeR> lfm why
178 2010-12-25 10:51:06 <BoBeR> thats a form of censorship
179 2010-12-25 10:51:18 <BoBeR> im not stupid im not camwhoring
180 2010-12-25 10:51:27 <BoBeR> in fact i bet i could talk ppl into that
181 2010-12-25 10:51:32 <BoBeR> at most i hack around
182 2010-12-25 10:51:42 <lfm> too easy for kids to not get proper sleep if there are computers available. I know from experience
183 2010-12-25 10:51:46 <BoBeR> and mess with antiregulatory currencys
184 2010-12-25 10:51:51 <BoBeR> heh
185 2010-12-25 10:51:52 <phillipsjk> Porn is evil, don't you know ;)
186 2010-12-25 10:52:00 <BoBeR> im staying up with its help right now
187 2010-12-25 10:52:04 <BoBeR> i dont watch porn
188 2010-12-25 10:52:13 <BoBeR> it doesnt ecxite me
189 2010-12-25 10:52:16 <BoBeR> excite
190 2010-12-25 10:52:24 <phillipsjk> same here.
191 2010-12-25 10:52:27 <amiga4000> all these young folks...
192 2010-12-25 10:52:27 <lfm> youre not alseep either
193 2010-12-25 10:53:08 <sipa1024> it's almost 1pm here :)
194 2010-12-25 10:53:11 <phillipsjk> amiga4000: I'll be over the hill soon :/
195 2010-12-25 10:53:14 <BoBeR> almost 7 then
196 2010-12-25 10:53:35 <amiga4000> it is 1pm and snow is gone and it is xmas. Go have a nice party.
197 2010-12-25 10:53:54 <sipa1024> more than enough snow here :)
198 2010-12-25 10:54:06 <lfm> still plenty of snow here
199 2010-12-25 10:54:08 <sipa1024> and i'm waiting to go visit family
200 2010-12-25 10:54:50 <amiga4000> (btw, just got my 6th block in bitcoin in 2 weeks time, great)
201 2010-12-25 10:55:01 <lfm> amiga4000: wtg
202 2010-12-25 10:55:39 <sipa1024> what hardware?
203 2010-12-25 10:55:53 <amiga4000> 6 NVidia 480GTX and 1 AMD 5780
204 2010-12-25 10:56:01 <sipa1024> right :)
205 2010-12-25 10:56:05 <amiga4000> and a few corei7
206 2010-12-25 10:56:28 <sipa1024> i have one ati 4870, and if i wasn't in a pool, you wouldn't have gotten anything yet :)
207 2010-12-25 10:56:51 <amiga4000> and now back to lunch.
208 2010-12-25 10:58:17 <phillipsjk> lfm: the sleep problem prompted my interest in silent computers.
209 2010-12-25 10:59:01 <BoBeR> tmie
210 2010-12-25 10:59:04 <BoBeR> time
211 2010-12-25 10:59:04 <lfm> phillipsjk: noise doesnt really bother my sleep. I have a radio on all the time. no computer in bedrrom tho
212 2010-12-25 10:59:17 <lfm> 4:58
213 2010-12-25 10:59:35 <BoBeR> 2 miniuts
214 2010-12-25 10:59:57 <phillipsjk> I don't currently have a non-doorstop computer in the beadroom either (no nework access).
215 2010-12-25 11:00:26 <lfm> oh I have ethernet cables all over. wifi sucks
216 2010-12-25 11:01:04 <phillipsjk> Still living with my parents, so not allowed to just knock holes in the wall.
217 2010-12-25 11:01:17 <BoBeR> lol
218 2010-12-25 11:02:22 <lfm> ya, i have a nice 1 inch diameter 18 inch long drill bit makes short work of walls
219 2010-12-25 11:04:23 <lfm> 5:01 bye BoBeR !
220 2010-12-25 11:05:10 <phillipsjk> At my previous house, I ran nework cable along the ceiling with suction cups for a while (fell down periodically).
221 2010-12-25 11:05:15 <BoBeR> laters
222 2010-12-25 11:05:49 <lfm> did you have to lick the cups? gross eh?
223 2010-12-25 11:06:22 <phillipsjk> I used vasaline (whie petrolium jelly) which requires some soap and water to clean up.
224 2010-12-25 11:07:33 <lfm> so no valsaline on the ceilings for your new house huh?
225 2010-12-25 11:08:56 <phillipsjk> I would have to buy a much longer network cable.  I think it would be easier/better to just properly wire every room.
226 2010-12-25 11:09:30 <caracrist> is there any bug/featur tracker for the client?
227 2010-12-25 11:10:04 <lfm> caracrist: nope
228 2010-12-25 11:10:17 <lfm> caracrist: just the forums
229 2010-12-25 11:11:35 <caracrist> My clieant decided to be right to left in english... strange though
230 2010-12-25 11:12:00 <lfm> yup thats odd
231 2010-12-25 11:12:47 <lfm> make sure locale is unset
232 2010-12-25 11:13:13 <caracrist> it is set, is it some kind of limitation?
233 2010-12-25 11:13:44 <lfm> whats it set to? maybe something not supported
234 2010-12-25 11:14:18 <lfm> missing translation?
235 2010-12-25 11:14:44 <caracrist> credit and debit columnes are l2r, description column r2l, tabs and menu items are r2l (mized mode :) )
236 2010-12-25 11:14:50 <caracrist> *mixed
237 2010-12-25 11:15:12 <lfm> what is lacale set to?
238 2010-12-25 11:15:18 <caracrist> hebrew
239 2010-12-25 11:16:15 <lfm> ah, right, there is no hebrew translation yet. maybe you could make one up, Im not really sure what is needed myself tho
240 2010-12-25 11:17:38 <lfm> look at the files in the locale subdirectory of the sources
241 2010-12-25 11:18:04 <caracrist> yeah working on it
242 2010-12-25 11:18:45 <lfm> good luck with that. if you make it work, there might be a bitcoin reward for the work
243 2010-12-25 11:19:06 <caracrist> not a must, but will be nice :)
244 2010-12-25 11:30:52 <caracrist> hmm... i see where is no unicode example :)
245 2010-12-25 11:33:03 <caracrist> it's compiled utf-8...
246 2010-12-25 11:52:24 <caracrist> i see it's not that simple... need to add unicode support to the program first... wxT(" wraps, and of a kind...
247 2010-12-25 11:53:44 <lfm> it is compiled utf-8 yes
248 2010-12-25 11:54:39 <caracrist> I see the code... It is not ready for unicode... more than half of potential users in the world :)
249 2010-12-25 11:56:27 <lfm> so you think it is insuficient for chinese and japanese also then?
250 2010-12-25 11:56:45 <caracrist> i am sure
251 2010-12-25 11:57:43 <lfm> ok, I didnt know that the creator is Japanese so it surprises me
252 2010-12-25 11:58:09 <caracrist> yeah good point :)
253 2010-12-25 11:58:22 <caracrist> it is realy surprising
254 2010-12-25 11:58:47 <lfm> at least he has a japanese name. Maybe he is actually just american, I dont know for sure
255 2010-12-25 12:01:35 <caracrist> there are funny things like this, in code: string() + "<br><b>" + _("Message:") + "</b><br>"
256 2010-12-25 12:01:59 <caracrist> mixed _( macro and utf-8 strings
257 2010-12-25 12:02:05 <lfm> thats for bold I think
258 2010-12-25 12:02:30 <caracrist> doesn't matter, you can't compile it in unicode mode :)
259 2010-12-25 12:04:03 <lfm> perhaps you could start a thread in the forums about this. maybe find some people who know more about it than I do
260 2010-12-25 12:05:37 <caracrist> I will try to find a time for it... thank you, bye bye.
261 2010-12-25 12:06:00 <lfm> ok sorry i couldnt do more for ya
262 2010-12-25 13:14:11 <BoBeR> 
263 2010-12-25 13:43:33 <dsg> bc,estimate
264 2010-12-25 13:43:35 <dsg> ;;bc,estimate
265 2010-12-25 13:43:36 <gribble> 15441.23302593
266 2010-12-25 14:04:52 <lfm> I found a boxing day sale they're offering 5830 for $120
267 2010-12-25 14:05:05 <Diablo-D3> thats not really worth shit
268 2010-12-25 14:05:17 <lfm> 200mhash
269 2010-12-25 14:05:26 <Diablo-D3> 5830s use more power than 5850s (almost as much as a 5870, really), and do just a tad over 5770's power
270 2010-12-25 14:05:29 <Diablo-D3> er
271 2010-12-25 14:05:31 <Diablo-D3> mhash rate
272 2010-12-25 14:06:02 <Diablo-D3> so you buy a device that does between 5770 and 5850 in mhash, but between 5850 and 5870 in watts
273 2010-12-25 14:06:05 <lfm> so you figgure a 5770 for $100 would be better?
274 2010-12-25 14:06:17 <Diablo-D3> yes
275 2010-12-25 14:06:24 <Diablo-D3> or a 5850
276 2010-12-25 14:06:29 <lfm> hmm interesting
277 2010-12-25 14:06:49 <lfm> 5850 is still $270
278 2010-12-25 14:07:07 <Diablo-D3> its like 5970, 5870, 5850, 5770, 5750 in watt efficiency
279 2010-12-25 14:07:26 <Diablo-D3> 5970, 5850, {5770, 5870} in dollar efficiency
280 2010-12-25 14:07:39 <Diablo-D3> 5850s are really good cards if you cant get a 5970
281 2010-12-25 14:08:31 <lfm> im not reallly in 58970 market still over $600
282 2010-12-25 14:08:44 <lfm> 5970 that is
283 2010-12-25 14:09:35 <Diablo-D3> if you cant afford a 5850, get a 5770
284 2010-12-25 14:09:40 <Diablo-D3> they're not bad cards
285 2010-12-25 14:10:15 <lfm> ya I got a 5770 already was on sale for $105, I spoze I shoulda got more than 1 then
286 2010-12-25 14:12:59 <lfm> any of the 6xxx any good yet?
287 2010-12-25 14:15:49 <Cusipzzz> how many hash for a 5970 ? those look insane
288 2010-12-25 14:17:14 <lfm> over 500 mhash/s I think
289 2010-12-25 14:17:16 <ArtForz> ~530M stock with m0s miner
290 2010-12-25 14:17:38 <Cusipzzz> thx, what's tha calc on that at current difficulty ?
291 2010-12-25 14:17:42 <lfm> where do you find power consumption figures?
292 2010-12-25 14:17:57 <ArtForz> wikipedia is a good start
293 2010-12-25 14:18:41 <ArtForz> AMDs TDP figures seem to correlate well with actual power draw while mining, at least for 5770, 5870 and 5970
294 2010-12-25 14:21:54 <lfm> doh TDP colum was off the side of the window and I didnt notice
295 2010-12-25 14:22:49 <ArtForz> 68xx isn't too bad, 6870 is pretty much == 5850
296 2010-12-25 14:24:04 <ArtForz> 69xx isn't very useful for mining, 6970 roughly == 5870
297 2010-12-25 14:30:01 <ArtForz> so 6990 will probably end up == 5970
298 2010-12-25 14:32:27 <lfm> ya with power figures looks like i should go for another 5770
299 2010-12-25 14:33:11 <ArtForz> 5970 at $500 was a dceent option, but those are prett much impossible to find nowadays
300 2010-12-25 14:34:01 <lfm> ya, my favorite shop only has em at %650
301 2010-12-25 14:34:15 <lfm> $650
302 2010-12-25 14:41:01 <ArtForz> probably still cheap compared to 6990 :/
303 2010-12-25 15:04:16 <anarchyx> ;;bc,stats
304 2010-12-25 15:04:18 <gribble> Current Blocks: 99381 | Current Difficulty: 14484.16236123 | Next Difficulty At Block: 100799 | Next Difficulty In: 1418 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 5 hours, 21 minutes, and 56 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 15495.66241413
305 2010-12-25 15:38:26 <Diablo-D3> back
306 2010-12-25 15:38:37 <Diablo-D3> [10:22:50] <ArtForz> 68xx isn't too bad, 6870 is pretty much == 5850
307 2010-12-25 15:38:43 <Diablo-D3> I always seem to have to qualify that
308 2010-12-25 15:38:51 <Diablo-D3> 5870 3D speeds, 5850 mining speeds
309 2010-12-25 15:38:59 <Diablo-D3> its really fucking optimized for the job they did, and Im surprised
310 2010-12-25 15:40:35 <genjix> your mum is optimised but we're not surprised.
311 2010-12-25 15:41:03 <genjix> badoom tsssss
312 2010-12-25 15:41:17 <ArtForz> "what is a good card for mining" != "what is a good card for general 3D"
313 2010-12-25 15:41:48 <genjix> ^ isn't there a strong correlation?
314 2010-12-25 15:42:00 <ArtForz> not that strong
315 2010-12-25 15:42:06 <genjix> after all shaders are the biggest part of "general 3D" these days.
316 2010-12-25 15:42:13 <ArtForz> except when they're not
317 2010-12-25 15:42:39 <genjix> yeah they are. everything is shader run in games today
318 2010-12-25 15:43:10 <ArtForz> 6870 has less shaders than 5850, yet somehow ends up close to 5870 in 3D perf
319 2010-12-25 15:43:25 <genjix> animation skinning, particle effects, mip-mapping, surface effects, ...
320 2010-12-25 15:43:31 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: well you know
321 2010-12-25 15:43:34 <Diablo-D3> thats not entirely true
322 2010-12-25 15:43:46 <ArtForz> yes it is
323 2010-12-25 15:43:47 <Diablo-D3> dx11 is kind of pushing for more integer shit in stuff that needs it
324 2010-12-25 15:43:49 <ArtForz> even 6970 has less raw shader power than 5870
325 2010-12-25 15:44:02 <Diablo-D3> [11:41:17] <ArtForz> "what is a good card for mining" != "what is a good card for general 3D"
326 2010-12-25 15:44:03 <Diablo-D3> I meant that
327 2010-12-25 15:44:27 <Diablo-D3> AMD is pushing for better integer performance for 3D games
328 2010-12-25 15:44:37 <Diablo-D3> nvidia is just completely fucking it up and no one cares what they do
329 2010-12-25 15:44:39 <ArtForz> 6xxx has more bandwidth, better frontends, more/faster fixed function units, ...
330 2010-12-25 15:45:18 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: which is great all over, really
331 2010-12-25 15:45:22 <ArtForz> yep
332 2010-12-25 15:45:53 <ArtForz> for general shaders 6xxx boosts pref quite a bit
333 2010-12-25 15:46:08 <Diablo-D3> I think the problem isnt that 68xx is worse for mining
334 2010-12-25 15:46:18 <Diablo-D3> the problem is 68xx fixed a lot of the performance problems for 3D
335 2010-12-25 15:46:20 <ArtForz> but if you have highly optimized code for 5xxx that already gets >95% util... 6xxx is a downgrade
336 2010-12-25 15:46:39 <Diablo-D3> and 69xx is just a happy rape fest
337 2010-12-25 15:47:21 <Diablo-D3> https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner/issues#issue/3
338 2010-12-25 15:47:22 <ArtForz> thats the fun part, for peak integer or FP shader throughput 6970 is also a downgrade compared to 5870
339 2010-12-25 15:47:22 <Diablo-D3> huh.
340 2010-12-25 15:47:37 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: raw throughput? yes
341 2010-12-25 15:47:40 <Diablo-D3> due to less pipes
342 2010-12-25 15:47:43 <ArtForz> yep
343 2010-12-25 15:48:00 <Diablo-D3> but it uses them far more effectively
344 2010-12-25 15:48:07 <ArtForz> and with some limitations you could do SP/int *and* DP on one VLIW
345 2010-12-25 15:48:16 <Diablo-D3> the problem is bitcoin is just so fucking efficient
346 2010-12-25 15:48:27 <Diablo-D3> we screwed AMD, really
347 2010-12-25 15:48:30 <ArtForz> afair you could still use XYZ when you had T doing 64 DP FP
348 2010-12-25 15:48:57 <Diablo-D3> t is independent from wxyz
349 2010-12-25 15:49:05 <ArtForz> on 69xx DP FP ties up XYZ and leaves you with W
350 2010-12-25 15:49:07 <Diablo-D3> so yeah, if the compiler can emit that, it could possibly be done
351 2010-12-25 15:49:22 <Diablo-D3> but heres the problem
352 2010-12-25 15:49:27 <Diablo-D3> you rarely get to a point where you have that
353 2010-12-25 15:49:33 <Diablo-D3> if you're using dp, you're using it all over
354 2010-12-25 15:49:34 <ArtForz> yep
355 2010-12-25 15:49:42 <Diablo-D3> unfucking dp performance in general helps you more
356 2010-12-25 15:49:44 <Diablo-D3> which they did
357 2010-12-25 15:49:53 <ArtForz> with "normal" shaders 5xxx rarely got >75% utilization
358 2010-12-25 15:50:27 <Diablo-D3> btw
359 2010-12-25 15:50:31 <Diablo-D3> [11:47:20] <Diablo-D3> https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner/issues#issue/3
360 2010-12-25 15:50:35 <Diablo-D3> what a bizzaro error
361 2010-12-25 15:51:07 <ArtForz> from the looks of it VLIW4 is a bit underwhelming
362 2010-12-25 15:51:27 <Diablo-D3> vliw4 might be exactly what we want though
363 2010-12-25 15:51:35 <ArtForz> well, yeah
364 2010-12-25 15:51:36 <Diablo-D3> now that its an even number with all exactly the same parts
365 2010-12-25 15:51:41 <Diablo-D3> they can scale it up
366 2010-12-25 15:51:47 <ArtForz> but for more general GPGPU more DP perf would've owned
367 2010-12-25 15:51:58 <Diablo-D3> they could produce vliw8 in a later version
368 2010-12-25 15:52:08 <INEEDMONEY> I need android developers btw
369 2010-12-25 15:52:10 <INEEDMONEY> will pay
370 2010-12-25 15:52:19 <Diablo-D3> and reduce overall alu complexity
371 2010-12-25 15:52:32 <ArtForz> = instead of 4SP or 1DP + 1SP op on a VLIW4 per clock make it 4SP or 1DP + 2SP or 2DP
372 2010-12-25 15:52:55 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: well theres probably an interlock somewhere that only works on half of the unit
373 2010-12-25 15:53:03 <Diablo-D3> ie, DP only works on the first 2, not the last 2
374 2010-12-25 15:53:18 <ArtForz> DP ties up *3* of the units for some reaon
375 2010-12-25 15:53:23 <Diablo-D3> wtf
376 2010-12-25 15:53:30 <Diablo-D3> yeah but guess what
377 2010-12-25 15:53:38 <Diablo-D3> per watt, we're still pwning the shit out of anything nvidia
378 2010-12-25 15:53:41 <ArtForz> yep
379 2010-12-25 15:53:41 <Diablo-D3> tesla or not
380 2010-12-25 15:53:42 <Diablo-D3> per dollar too
381 2010-12-25 15:53:44 <genjix> INEEDMONEY: best place that offer in the marketplace.
382 2010-12-25 15:53:58 <Diablo-D3> if they made 1/2 DP performance possible
383 2010-12-25 15:54:05 <Diablo-D3> or even 1/3rd
384 2010-12-25 15:54:17 <Diablo-D3> (tie up 3 units, reuse a unit)
385 2010-12-25 15:54:28 <Diablo-D3> (so 4x units get ran 6x times)
386 2010-12-25 15:54:30 <ArtForz> it would wipe the floor with fermi
387 2010-12-25 15:54:43 <ArtForz> even non-crippled fermi aka tesla
388 2010-12-25 15:54:44 <Diablo-D3> AMD would get arrested for aggrivated rape.
389 2010-12-25 15:54:48 <INEEDMONEY> genjix: okay, thanks
390 2010-12-25 15:55:00 <Diablo-D3> actually, tying up 3 units, and reusing a unit could work here
391 2010-12-25 15:55:12 <Diablo-D3> you'd get 2x DP and 2x SP every two runs
392 2010-12-25 15:55:34 <Diablo-D3> so 1/3rd DP performance plus change
393 2010-12-25 15:56:07 <ArtForz> something like that
394 2010-12-25 15:56:29 <Diablo-D3> hrm
395 2010-12-25 15:56:30 <Diablo-D3> of course
396 2010-12-25 15:56:34 <ArtForz> of course even in this state VLIW4 looks great compared to fermi
397 2010-12-25 15:56:38 <Diablo-D3> hrm.
398 2010-12-25 15:56:40 <Diablo-D3> yeah
399 2010-12-25 15:56:45 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: I think though
400 2010-12-25 15:56:49 <Diablo-D3> I'd like to see an experimental VLIW8
401 2010-12-25 15:57:15 <ArtForz> ~338 true GFLOPS DP on a 6970
402 2010-12-25 15:57:42 <ArtForz> 5870 is ~272
403 2010-12-25 15:57:54 <Diablo-D3> yeah thats like, what, 3x per dollar vs tesla, 2x per watt vs tesla?
404 2010-12-25 15:58:02 <ArtForz> fermi C2050 does ... 257.6
405 2010-12-25 15:58:20 <Diablo-D3> maybe closer to 4x per dollar vs tesla
406 2010-12-25 15:58:21 <ArtForz> a C2050 is like $2k
407 2010-12-25 15:58:30 <Diablo-D3> ... did I say 4x? I meant more like 10.
408 2010-12-25 15:58:40 <ArtForz> yep
409 2010-12-25 15:58:57 <ArtForz> for SP its a even more crazy gap
410 2010-12-25 15:59:14 <Diablo-D3> why the fuck does nvidia bother
411 2010-12-25 15:59:30 <Diablo-D3> its like throwing dodgeballs at a retarded kid, here
412 2010-12-25 15:59:41 <ArtForz> ~1352 GFLOPs for a 6970 vs. 515 for a fermi
413 2010-12-25 15:59:49 <Diablo-D3> dude
414 2010-12-25 15:59:53 <Diablo-D3> what does a 6990 do
415 2010-12-25 15:59:58 <Diablo-D3> like 2400?
416 2010-12-25 16:00:01 <ArtForz> no one knows
417 2010-12-25 16:00:27 <Diablo-D3> if they underclocked them like 5970 did, its gotta be somewhere in the 2200-2400 realm
418 2010-12-25 16:00:31 <ArtForz> my guess is 6990 will be 2*1536SP @ 800
419 2010-12-25 16:00:50 <Diablo-D3> well maybe more like 2300-2500
420 2010-12-25 16:01:10 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: did you see that bug report?
421 2010-12-25 16:01:14 <Diablo-D3> it fails on one gpu, but not the other.
422 2010-12-25 16:01:25 <ArtForz> so ~2.45T SP and ~614G DP
423 2010-12-25 16:01:40 <Diablo-D3> jesus shit
424 2010-12-25 16:01:43 <Diablo-D3> you know what AMD needs to do?
425 2010-12-25 16:01:51 <Diablo-D3> engineer some sort of board that has a shitload of these on it
426 2010-12-25 16:02:04 <Diablo-D3> goes flat on the bottom of a 4U
427 2010-12-25 16:02:11 <Diablo-D3> and then on top of it is about 120 pounds of copper
428 2010-12-25 16:02:28 <ArtForz> ... weird bug
429 2010-12-25 16:02:47 <ArtForz> and why are there 2 mobile geforces?
430 2010-12-25 16:02:52 <Diablo-D3> yeah thats the thing
431 2010-12-25 16:02:59 <Diablo-D3> how did he get 2 mobiles, and why is only one working?
432 2010-12-25 16:03:31 <ArtForz> I think I know whats going on
433 2010-12-25 16:03:39 <ArtForz> 9400M = IGP
434 2010-12-25 16:03:43 <ArtForz> 9600M GT = discrete
435 2010-12-25 16:03:50 <Diablo-D3> but why is OSX showing both?
436 2010-12-25 16:04:01 <ArtForz> fucked up switchable graphics?
437 2010-12-25 16:04:07 <Diablo-D3> huh.
438 2010-12-25 16:04:13 <Diablo-D3> I dont think Ill be able to fix this bug then
439 2010-12-25 16:04:16 <Diablo-D3> apple needs to
440 2010-12-25 16:04:23 <Diablo-D3> lets see what he replies
441 2010-12-25 16:05:04 <ArtForz> yep, MBP
442 2010-12-25 16:05:12 <Diablo-D3> huh.
443 2010-12-25 16:05:16 <ArtForz> mac book pro
444 2010-12-25 16:05:19 <ArtForz> 9400M IGP + 9600GT discrete
445 2010-12-25 16:05:25 <ArtForz> *9600M GT
446 2010-12-25 16:05:29 <Diablo-D3> thats kind of lousy
447 2010-12-25 16:05:33 <Diablo-D3> not really an upgrade at all
448 2010-12-25 16:05:55 <Diablo-D3> radeons can go further than that anyhow
449 2010-12-25 16:06:19 <ArtForz> well, 9600M GT is about 2.5x 9400M
450 2010-12-25 16:06:28 <Diablo-D3> you could have a mobile 5xxx, have it perform like that 9600m, use less watts, and then in power save mode, use watts like the 9400m
451 2010-12-25 16:06:46 <ArtForz> yep
452 2010-12-25 16:08:01 <Diablo-D3> I heard a rumor apple wants to drop all intel/nvidia solutions
453 2010-12-25 16:08:03 <Diablo-D3> and go straight amd/amd
454 2010-12-25 16:08:16 <Diablo-D3> because intel is trying to force apple into an intel/intel deal
455 2010-12-25 16:08:19 <ArtForz> ewww
456 2010-12-25 16:09:01 <ArtForz> especially eww for mac pros
457 2010-12-25 16:10:05 <Diablo-D3> yeah
458 2010-12-25 16:10:23 <Diablo-D3> a mac pro thats fitted with two of those new server fusion sockets would be rape happy
459 2010-12-25 16:11:01 <ArtForz> btw, I was kinda surprised by the Phenom II 125W boxed cooler
460 2010-12-25 16:11:15 <ArtForz> it's ... decent
461 2010-12-25 16:11:18 <Diablo-D3> lol
462 2010-12-25 16:11:24 <Diablo-D3> AMD has been doing decent on their boxed coolers
463 2010-12-25 16:11:26 <Diablo-D3> but lets face it
464 2010-12-25 16:11:31 <Diablo-D3> its not a replacement for 10 pounds of hsf
465 2010-12-25 16:11:42 <ArtForz> well, the boxed coolers on 95W A2-X2s suck
466 2010-12-25 16:12:03 <Diablo-D3> Im surprised they just dont ship ones for 125w across the board
467 2010-12-25 16:12:07 <Diablo-D3> it'd reduce costs
468 2010-12-25 16:12:14 <ArtForz> 25???C ambient + 100% CPU load = noisy little bastard
469 2010-12-25 16:12:29 <ArtForz> the 125W ones are a completely different design
470 2010-12-25 16:12:34 <Diablo-D3> huh
471 2010-12-25 16:12:39 <ArtForz> yep
472 2010-12-25 16:12:43 <Diablo-D3> maybe its the first of the new ones they will go with
473 2010-12-25 16:12:58 <ArtForz> 95W cooler is a simple copper-cored radial fin thingy
474 2010-12-25 16:13:37 <ArtForz> 125W is a dual heatpipe unit, similar to the boxed coolers on the old 125W Athlon64s
475 2010-12-25 16:15:12 <ArtForz> basically the new 95W cooler looks a lot like the C2D boxed cooler
476 2010-12-25 16:16:33 <ArtForz> http://images.ncix.com/forumimages/BF6008DC-8C6D-4F5E-BC9EB400523127CE.jpg
477 2010-12-25 16:17:00 <ArtForz> left is 125/140W, right is 65/95W
478 2010-12-25 16:19:47 <ArtForz> sure, it wont beat 2 pounds of tower cooler, but it's suprisingly good for a boxed cooler
479 2010-12-25 16:20:21 <Diablo-D3> hrrm
480 2010-12-25 16:20:33 <Diablo-D3> the left one looks nicer
481 2010-12-25 16:20:42 <Diablo-D3> infact, thats pretty good
482 2010-12-25 16:20:51 <Diablo-D3> if I had one of those on a basic machine, I wouldnt change it
483 2010-12-25 16:22:00 <ArtForz> only kinda sucky part is the nonstandard 60mm fan
484 2010-12-25 16:23:31 <ArtForz> btw, have you seent he "handcrafted 6970" pics?
485 2010-12-25 16:23:42 <Diablo-D3> no
486 2010-12-25 16:24:19 <ArtForz> "minor" design flaw
487 2010-12-25 16:25:15 <Diablo-D3> btw, the guy who reported the bug confirms its a MBP with the dual shit
488 2010-12-25 16:25:40 <ArtForz> http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=263668
489 2010-12-25 16:26:09 <ArtForz> a true "shit hit the fan" moment :P
490 2010-12-25 16:26:12 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: ahahahah
491 2010-12-25 16:26:15 <Diablo-D3> nice
492 2010-12-25 16:26:41 <Diablo-D3> btw, thats a pretty sexy looking card.
493 2010-12-25 16:27:24 <ArtForz> whats kinda interesting is that it has spots for 8 more ram chips on the backside
494 2010-12-25 16:27:52 <Diablo-D3> heeeee
495 2010-12-25 16:27:54 <ArtForz> 6970 currently uses 8 2Gbit chips
496 2010-12-25 16:28:04 <Diablo-D3> imagine if they have a 69xx mode that doubles the bus width
497 2010-12-25 16:28:24 <Diablo-D3> if I was the CEO of AMD, I'd call up the CEO of Nvidia, and just screw with him
498 2010-12-25 16:29:01 <Diablo-D3> "Hey man, whadja think of our new card?" "Fuck you." "Oh, and we already have a next version lined up... it doubles the bus bandwidth." "*suicide by gunshot*"
499 2010-12-25 16:29:04 <ArtForz> so I expect to see custom designs like 1GB 8*1Gbit 6950s, 2GB 16*1Gb 6970s and possibly 4GB 16*2Gbit 5970s
500 2010-12-25 16:29:19 <Diablo-D3> s/5970/6990/
501 2010-12-25 16:29:22 <ArtForz> yep
502 2010-12-25 16:29:26 <ArtForz> no, 6970
503 2010-12-25 16:29:37 <Diablo-D3> ahh
504 2010-12-25 16:30:20 <ArtForz> 6970 ref has 2GB as 8 * 2Gb, but has spots for 8 more ram chips ...
505 2010-12-25 16:30:44 <ArtForz> so a 4GB 6970 custom board wouldnt be too surprising
506 2010-12-25 16:31:13 <ArtForz> if they keep this up... 8GB 6970x2 ARESv2 anyone?
507 2010-12-25 16:31:27 <Diablo-D3> yeah but the problem is
508 2010-12-25 16:31:31 <Diablo-D3> you dont really NEED that much memory
509 2010-12-25 16:31:47 <Diablo-D3> your memory only needs to exceed your average texture set by 15% or so
510 2010-12-25 16:31:53 <ArtForz> well, we're already seeing games limited by 1GB/card
511 2010-12-25 16:32:02 <Diablo-D3> depends how you define "limited
512 2010-12-25 16:32:03 <Diablo-D3> "
513 2010-12-25 16:32:16 <Diablo-D3> not fitting every single last texture in isnt a limitation
514 2010-12-25 16:32:31 <ArtForz> "30% higher min framerate on same GPU with 2GB mem"
515 2010-12-25 16:32:37 <Diablo-D3> ... well fuck
516 2010-12-25 16:32:40 <Diablo-D3> its a limitation then
517 2010-12-25 16:34:07 <ArtForz> so if current high-end games push 1GB, we'll probably see the first "playable GPU-raping tech demo FPS" getting limited by 2GB in 12 months or so
518 2010-12-25 16:34:40 <ArtForz> and it gets worse as you push screen res up
519 2010-12-25 16:34:59 <Diablo-D3> yeah
520 2010-12-25 16:35:05 <Diablo-D3> its funny though
521 2010-12-25 16:35:12 <Diablo-D3> the game I wanna make wont have much textures.
522 2010-12-25 16:35:19 <ArtForz> probably because higher res = texs at higher mipmap level at same distance = more mem
523 2010-12-25 16:35:27 <Diablo-D3> yet completely fuck over gpus
524 2010-12-25 16:36:35 <Diablo-D3> heee
525 2010-12-25 16:36:37 <ArtForz> just use procedurally generated geometry and crank up the triangles, guaranteed to bring any GPU to its limits
526 2010-12-25 16:36:40 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: I found my first block for the pool
527 2010-12-25 16:37:29 <edcba> happy blockday !
528 2010-12-25 16:39:53 <ArtForz> do not taunt super happy fun block!
529 2010-12-25 16:40:14 <Diablo-D3> lol
530 2010-12-25 16:40:57 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: heh, Im almost to 50 commits on the github repo
531 2010-12-25 16:42:16 <RichardG> if anyone here supports bittorrent as a legal platform for distribution of free software
532 2010-12-25 16:42:26 <RichardG> http://richardg.ath.cx:8080/bitcoin.torrent
533 2010-12-25 16:42:31 <RichardG> (yeah, bad ISP blocks port 80)
534 2010-12-25 16:42:40 <Diablo-D3> whats in the torrent?
535 2010-12-25 16:43:16 <RichardG> 0.3.19 all OSes
536 2010-12-25 18:06:15 <shiva> hi
537 2010-12-25 18:06:25 <shiva> any one here want to trade paypal to pokerstars ?
538 2010-12-25 18:06:29 <shiva> got references
539 2010-12-25 18:10:19 <shiva> hello
540 2010-12-25 18:51:13 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: btw, the guy with the bug found an app that fixes it
541 2010-12-25 18:51:33 <ArtForz> cool
542 2010-12-25 18:51:50 <ArtForz> check -mining ;)
543 2010-12-25 20:14:57 <skull23> thanks for the boot ............ merry christmast to you to.
544 2010-12-25 20:15:11 <ne0futur> you re welcome
545 2010-12-25 20:15:29 <ne0futur> and yes you can advertise your services, but once an hour . . . seems much
546 2010-12-25 20:16:05 <skull23> I never said i was going to once an hour, you automatically assumed the worst from me. and took action.
547 2010-12-25 20:16:56 <ne0futur> you re not banned, just one kick to make you know there are admins in #bitcoin-otc
548 2010-12-25 20:17:21 <ne0futur> you could also think of registering to nickserv, get a cloak, and use the bot to advertise your services
549 2010-12-25 20:21:32 <skull23> how do  i get a cloak? theres only ghost for release of nickname
550 2010-12-25 20:29:32 <ne0futur> first you register with nickserv
551 2010-12-25 20:29:40 <ne0futur> /msg nickserv help register
552 2010-12-25 20:29:45 <ne0futur> /msg nickserv help identify
553 2010-12-25 20:30:09 <ne0futur> then you wait a few days and can go on #freenode and ask for a freenode admin to give you an unaffiliated cloak
554 2010-12-25 22:20:27 <sipa> tcatm: new graph, http://sipa.be/static/bc-speed.pdf
555 2010-12-25 22:20:38 <sipa> slush_cz: you threre?
556 2010-12-25 22:20:47 <slush_cz> yeo
557 2010-12-25 22:20:49 <slush_cz> yep
558 2010-12-25 22:21:31 <sipa> do you have any detailed statistics about the (difficulty 1) blocks calculated by your pool?
559 2010-12-25 22:21:47 <slush_cz> what do you mean by detailed stats?
560 2010-12-25 22:22:49 <sipa> if you're interested, i can make a graph of the estimated computation speed
561 2010-12-25 22:23:33 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: I expect my 5 btc ;)
562 2010-12-25 22:23:45 <sipa> and ideally: for each 'share' the time it was found
563 2010-12-25 22:23:51 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: Not implemented yet ;)
564 2010-12-25 22:23:56 <Diablo-D3> :D
565 2010-12-25 22:24:07 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: btw, the network thread is now absolutely totally shit proof
566 2010-12-25 22:24:09 <slush_cz> sipa: Which tool are you using?
567 2010-12-25 22:24:15 <sipa> slush_cz: something i wrote myself
568 2010-12-25 22:24:28 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: Ive done over 1000 shares, and not one dupe came up
569 2010-12-25 22:24:44 <sipa> it estimates average speed and growth rate for a moving window of blocks, and combines those
570 2010-12-25 22:25:33 <slush_cz> sipa: I have some data (namely date/time when block was found and total shares needed to find it == approx. cluster speed), which should be quite easy to plot. Because I hate work with any graphic, I will probably use some google graphs or so
571 2010-12-25 22:25:45 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: It looks pretty solid for me too
572 2010-12-25 22:26:02 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: btw, you should add one field to the stats
573 2010-12-25 22:26:03 <sipa> slush_cz: but you don't have the time for each share?
574 2010-12-25 22:26:07 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: total earned
575 2010-12-25 22:26:37 <slush_cz> sipa: Say there are 1-2 shares per second. Saving their timestamp is pointless
576 2010-12-25 22:26:48 <sipa> yes, i didn't expect you to
577 2010-12-25 22:26:54 <sipa> but it would have been nice :)
578 2010-12-25 22:27:31 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: agree, I have some better stats in my head and I plan to improve it  soon
579 2010-12-25 22:28:00 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: I will add performance history and also 'hall of fame' for top miners and so
580 2010-12-25 22:28:24 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: 'Total earned' is quite easy to do- simply count blocks * 50 BTC :-D
581 2010-12-25 22:28:33 <slush_cz> sipa: What do you need for your stats?
582 2010-12-25 22:28:44 <slush_cz> sipa: There are already some numbers in json export
583 2010-12-25 22:28:54 <sipa> slush_cz: currently my input is a list of (time,difficulty)
584 2010-12-25 22:29:12 <slush_cz> sipa: So it is available on /stats/json/
585 2010-12-25 22:29:16 <sipa> let me see
586 2010-12-25 22:29:28 <sipa> slush_cz: btw, what do you do with blocks which have a transaction fee?
587 2010-12-25 22:30:07 <slush_cz> sipa: Now-nothing. I have earned 0.01 btc yet. I think it is nothing special to care about
588 2010-12-25 22:30:29 <slush_cz> sipa: Once it will be some significant amount, I will spread it between workers
589 2010-12-25 22:30:34 <sipa> ok great
590 2010-12-25 22:30:46 <sipa> i don't mind you keeping them for now, btw
591 2010-12-25 22:31:00 <sipa> you've put enough effort in it to keep something for yourself
592 2010-12-25 22:31:31 <slush_cz> sipa: I don't think fees will make any significant amount for few years ;)
593 2010-12-25 22:31:45 <sipa> no indeed
594 2010-12-25 22:31:59 <slush_cz> What do you all think about 5BTC reward for block founder?
595 2010-12-25 22:32:35 <slush_cz> It is quite delicate topic :)
596 2010-12-25 22:33:19 <sipa> i wouldn't mind 5-10 BTC for the one who finds the actual block
597 2010-12-25 22:33:26 <sipa> and 40-45 for the rest
598 2010-12-25 22:35:27 <sipa> if have too much time, you could always make an additional parameter "% contribution", if you set it to 100%, you don't keep anything from blocks you find yourself, and each of your shares count for 1; if you set it to 50%, you get to keep half of blocks you find, but your shares only count for 0.5, and so on
599 2010-12-25 22:37:18 <dsg> Why punish slower miners?
600 2010-12-25 22:37:25 <slush_cz> sipa: I want clear rules for anybody. Not exceptions for few users. This is also reason why I care about 5BTC, because I feel it is 'exception' for big players
601 2010-12-25 22:37:40 <dsg> slush_cz: I vote no, with the 3 blocks I've found for the pool :)
602 2010-12-25 22:38:06 <sipa> i understand that slower miners would be the ones with least benefit from it
603 2010-12-25 22:38:28 <sipa> and since the power of your system is precisely to make slower miners relevant still
604 2010-12-25 22:38:34 <slush_cz> dsg: because few players (say 10) are doing liquidity on pool. The rest ~100 users will never find a block in a days without those players
605 2010-12-25 22:38:57 <sipa> maybe there opinion is the most important
606 2010-12-25 22:39:38 <slush_cz> dsg: I also vote no (4 blocks already from me), but I think cluster performance dropped from 6ghash to 3ghash because this reason
607 2010-12-25 22:39:45 <dsg> slush_cz: Together the slower miners will find blocks regularly. And not everyone with good hardware makes that demand
608 2010-12-25 22:39:59 <sipa> s/there/their/
609 2010-12-25 22:40:09 <dsg> slush_cz: I'll connect my miner again if you're worried about performance
610 2010-12-25 22:40:34 <sipa> slush_cz: btw, would it be hard to keep the number of shares found each hour or so?
611 2010-12-25 22:41:17 <slush_cz> sipa: I think that block found dates are enough for performance calibration
612 2010-12-25 22:42:06 <slush> test
613 2010-12-25 22:42:11 <slush> wow, I'm slush now
614 2010-12-25 22:42:14 <sipa> yes
615 2010-12-25 22:43:09 <ArtForz> well, sampling at lower difficulty should give less average error
616 2010-12-25 22:43:40 <slush> dsg: I just talked with few big miners and they told me what I said in forum. although it is quite irrational, I understand them
617 2010-12-25 22:43:45 <dsg> slush: Anyway, if you're planning to make this change please announce it clearly because it changes the pool from simple fair distribution to gambling, and that means I (and probably others) will want to withdraw from the pool.
618 2010-12-25 22:43:58 <dsg> So, there are mutually incompatible viewpoints.
619 2010-12-25 22:44:40 <dsg> I suspect you could run successful pools for both groups :)
620 2010-12-25 22:44:48 <slush> dsg: I will definitely announce all changes like this before
621 2010-12-25 22:46:22 <slush> dsg: But I'm still not OK with this. Depends what will people say in forum
622 2010-12-25 22:46:37 <sipa> ArtForz: yeah, hence the question
623 2010-12-25 22:46:59 <slush> sipa: Do you have enough data from json export?
624 2010-12-25 22:47:09 <sipa> slush: i can do something with it
625 2010-12-25 22:47:14 <slush> sipa: great
626 2010-12-25 22:47:41 <dsg> slush: I've added 175MH/s :)
627 2010-12-25 22:47:51 <slush> dsg: thx :)
628 2010-12-25 22:47:57 <sipa> i can count each block found by the pool as one with difficulty equal to the number of shares it required
629 2010-12-25 22:48:13 <sipa> since that is a very good estimate of how much work was spent during that period
630 2010-12-25 22:50:18 <slush> Diablo-D3: Are you sure that parallel getwork calls was the reason?
631 2010-12-25 22:50:54 <Diablo-D3> slush: of what?
632 2010-12-25 22:50:59 <sipa> slush: oh, another question, what if i modified my client to send each found share twice
633 2010-12-25 22:51:00 <slush> Diablo-D3: of previous problems
634 2010-12-25 22:51:10 <Diablo-D3> slush: no, parallel getwork calls were 100% shit proof
635 2010-12-25 22:51:10 <sipa> would your software allow that?
636 2010-12-25 22:51:11 <slush> sipa: try it
637 2010-12-25 22:51:12 <slush> :)
638 2010-12-25 22:51:20 <Diablo-D3> slush: because getworks wernt shared between executors at all
639 2010-12-25 22:51:27 <Diablo-D3> slush: so no locking was required
640 2010-12-25 22:51:57 <sipa> slush: will i get banned? :p
641 2010-12-25 22:52:06 <slush> Diablo-D3: I'm asking if there is definitely no way to calculate same nonce by executors
642 2010-12-25 22:52:17 <slush> sipa: No, only shares will not be count :)
643 2010-12-25 22:52:24 <sipa> neither?
644 2010-12-25 22:52:30 <Diablo-D3> slush: the executors do push the nonce forward
645 2010-12-25 22:52:47 <slush> Diablo-D3: great, thanks
646 2010-12-25 22:52:49 <Diablo-D3> slush: the way it was, every executor did its own network shit, had its own getwork, had its own nonce
647 2010-12-25 22:53:11 <Diablo-D3> slush: but it used GPU*3x more network traffic
648 2010-12-25 22:53:12 <slush> sipa: neither
649 2010-12-25 22:53:37 <Diablo-D3> slush: but because of the network thread, I now have a unified getwork/nonce structure
650 2010-12-25 22:53:42 <slush> sipa: oh, those second atttemps will not be count, of course
651 2010-12-25 22:53:54 <slush> Diablo-D3: good to you :)
652 2010-12-25 22:53:56 <sipa> great, indeed :)
653 2010-12-25 22:53:59 <Diablo-D3> slush: the thread uses a lock on the network thread's copy of getwork to clone their own copy out
654 2010-12-25 22:54:04 <sipa> glad you thought about that :)
655 2010-12-25 22:54:07 <Diablo-D3> slush: er, the executor threads do that I mean
656 2010-12-25 22:54:40 <Diablo-D3> slush: so the executor threads do the clone, sometimes do the update, and its all synchronized so no thread can access the global getwork while another is
657 2010-12-25 22:54:41 <slush> Diablo-D3: got it
658 2010-12-25 22:55:06 <Diablo-D3> slush: so yes, it fixes the bug =P
659 2010-12-25 22:55:14 <Diablo-D3> this is why I didnt want to add the network thread btw
660 2010-12-25 22:55:21 <Diablo-D3> because I'd have to hammer this out
661 2010-12-25 22:55:41 <slush> Diablo-D3: but now it works perfectly :)
662 2010-12-25 22:55:51 <Diablo-D3> it worked perfectly before =P
663 2010-12-25 22:56:02 <slush> :)
664 2010-12-25 22:56:32 <Diablo-D3> actually, I should stop making NetworkState syncrhonized
665 2010-12-25 22:58:26 <slush> Diablo-D3: Do you have any calculated low-difficulty getwork to submit lying around?
666 2010-12-25 22:58:48 <slush> I'm on shitty Atom netbook without any GPU and need hash to testing :-)
667 2010-12-25 22:58:55 <slush> It takes hours to calculate even diff1 hash here
668 2010-12-25 22:59:24 <sipa> what do you need?
669 2010-12-25 23:00:11 <slush> sipa: Result from miner valid from difficulty 1 :)
670 2010-12-25 23:00:31 <slush> from => for
671 2010-12-25 23:00:54 <sipa> and what do you need from it?
672 2010-12-25 23:01:07 <sipa> the sent work?
673 2010-12-25 23:01:10 <slush> sipa: I need to submi
674 2010-12-25 23:01:17 <slush> I need to submit it to my dev pool to test something
675 2010-12-25 23:01:19 <slush> simply the string from miner
676 2010-12-25 23:02:19 <sipa> one minute :)
677 2010-12-25 23:03:37 <slush> sipa: thanks :)
678 2010-12-25 23:03:39 <Diablo-D3> slush: er, huh?
679 2010-12-25 23:03:50 <Diablo-D3> slush: do I have what?
680 2010-12-25 23:04:06 <slush> sipa: Btw if you need more history from pool, add ?history= parameter; default is 20, you can increase up to 1000
681 2010-12-25 23:04:21 <slush> Diablo-D3: Oh, nothing, sipa already sent me one :)
682 2010-12-25 23:04:45 <Diablo-D3> that does what?
683 2010-12-25 23:05:10 <sipa> just a valid calculated share
684 2010-12-25 23:05:12 <slush> https://mining.bitcoin.cz/stats/json/?history=1000
685 2010-12-25 23:05:49 <sipa> slush: now modifying my program to use a file instead of getblock json calls
686 2010-12-25 23:14:01 <sipa> slush: the change you're proposing is effective equivalent to people letting their miner only connect to the pool for 90% of the time, and 10% to an own client
687 2010-12-25 23:14:11 <slush> da2ce7: Hi, what do you think about proposal in pool forum?
688 2010-12-25 23:14:13 <sipa> in the long run
689 2010-12-25 23:15:11 <slush> sipa: not so clear. It depends on miner performance.
690 2010-12-25 23:15:15 <ArtForz> which means in the long run everyone ends up with the same share
691 2010-12-25 23:15:33 <slush> sipa: If you are strong guy, you can earn little more in pool
692 2010-12-25 23:15:48 <ArtForz> which is kinda opposite the purpose of a pool
693 2010-12-25 23:16:53 <ArtForz> errr... no
694 2010-12-25 23:17:02 <ArtForz> long term the distribution is exactly the same
695 2010-12-25 23:17:15 <sipa> slush: on average it doesn't matter in the real long term
696 2010-12-25 23:17:25 <slush> Current fair share is something like 'faucet' for small guys. I think it can be annoying for players with many blocks they have to divide with many many others
697 2010-12-25 23:17:44 <slush> sipa: I agree. Tell it to other people :)
698 2010-12-25 23:18:16 <ArtForz> and why even bother with a pool if you have enough hashrate to find several blocks/day?
699 2010-12-25 23:18:26 <sipa> indeed
700 2010-12-25 23:18:43 <sipa> i'm inclined to vote against the change now
701 2010-12-25 23:18:54 <sipa> it may scare away bigger players
702 2010-12-25 23:19:12 <Kiba> the bigger players could pool their resources...
703 2010-12-25 23:19:15 <slush> This is only something satoshi proposed. personally I'm not fully confident
704 2010-12-25 23:19:38 <sipa> but they will survive on their own, and keep it a nicer place for those who are either trusting statistics or only have little processing power :)
705 2010-12-25 23:19:53 <Diablo-D3> slush: you know what Im thinking?
706 2010-12-25 23:20:01 <slush> Diablo-D3: tell me
707 2010-12-25 23:20:03 <Diablo-D3> slush: every winner block gets 4BTC, and I get 1.
708 2010-12-25 23:20:59 <Kiba> in the future
709 2010-12-25 23:21:03 <Kiba> people will barely work
710 2010-12-25 23:21:09 <Kiba> as they know deflation will take care of itself
711 2010-12-25 23:21:19 <ArtForz> btw, fast miners also *have* to send quite a few getworks
712 2010-12-25 23:21:22 <skull23> Whats the best methode to making bitcoins atm?
713 2010-12-25 23:21:23 <slush> Diablo-D3: 'I get 1' you mean "i" as you? :)
714 2010-12-25 23:21:50 <slush> skull23: selling goods and services
715 2010-12-25 23:22:02 <sipa> slush: buying them :)
716 2010-12-25 23:22:05 <Diablo-D3> slush: yes.
717 2010-12-25 23:22:05 <sipa> oh
718 2010-12-25 23:22:09 <sipa> skull23: buying them :)
719 2010-12-25 23:22:26 <Diablo-D3> [07:21:20] <ArtForz> btw, fast miners also *have* to send quite a few getworks
720 2010-12-25 23:22:27 <Diablo-D3> yes
721 2010-12-25 23:23:01 <ArtForz> yep, 4/sec @ 16GH/s just to not run out of nonces
722 2010-12-25 23:23:21 <Diablo-D3> heh
723 2010-12-25 23:23:28 <Diablo-D3> thats why my miner has VERY careful nonce checking
724 2010-12-25 23:23:41 <Diablo-D3> otherwise you could easily shoot yourself in the foot
725 2010-12-25 23:26:28 <ArtForz> well, I solved it in a pretty simple fashion in my push based getwork equiv
726 2010-12-25 23:26:52 <Diablo-D3> I solved it easily in my design
727 2010-12-25 23:26:56 <ArtForz> each connected miner gets its own privkey = merkle root
728 2010-12-25 23:27:28 <ArtForz> I share a connection between GPU threads, so max I have appearing as one miner is 4 5970s
729 2010-12-25 23:28:04 <ArtForz> nTime is updated every second anyways, so I have plenty of headroom
730 2010-12-25 23:45:02 <slush> dsg: Thanks for comment on forum.
731 2010-12-25 23:45:27 <slush> dsg: But could you edit it and short quoted text a bit, please?
732 2010-12-25 23:49:58 <dsg> slush: Done
733 2010-12-25 23:50:10 <slush> thx
734 2010-12-25 23:53:10 <slush> thanks to opinions. I become more critical to my proposal now. Fairness should be really primary concern of grid, more than feelings of few big miners
735 2010-12-25 23:53:30 <slush> We will see what others will write to forum.
736 2010-12-25 23:53:42 <slush> Now I go sleep, bye!
737 2010-12-25 23:54:01 <dsg> gn
738 2010-12-25 23:57:26 <sipa> i should modify things still to get nicer results for the more variable data for bpm, but still: http://sipa.be/static/bpm-speed.pdf