1 2010-12-30 00:00:23 <marioxcc> and it is going to be ineficient to constantly refresh the queue
  2 2010-12-30 00:00:27 <ArtForz> huh?
  3 2010-12-30 00:00:35 <marioxcc> ArtForz: current cpuminer
  4 2010-12-30 00:00:59 <marioxcc> request sends a  getwork just when it's need
  5 2010-12-30 00:01:06 <marioxcc> that adds a delay
  6 2010-12-30 00:01:13 <marioxcc> and it is unused cpu
  7 2010-12-30 00:01:15 <ArtForz> my miner does it that way since forever
  8 2010-12-30 00:01:53 <marioxcc> ArtForz: my point is:
  9 2010-12-30 00:02:05 <marioxcc> to avoid deadtime you need a work queue (because of network latency)
 10 2010-12-30 00:02:13 <ArtForz> yes
 11 2010-12-30 00:02:16 <ArtForz> well, not really
 12 2010-12-30 00:02:25 <marioxcc> and to keep the queue with fresh works (valid ones)
 13 2010-12-30 00:02:27 <ArtForz> I use a async push based approach
 14 2010-12-30 00:02:29 <marioxcc> you need to refresh its
 15 2010-12-30 00:02:44 <marioxcc> becuase you don't know when to renew these
 16 2010-12-30 00:02:49 <marioxcc> you need to assume it's always
 17 2010-12-30 00:02:54 <marioxcc> and then renew them constantly
 18 2010-12-30 00:02:57 <ArtForz> ?
 19 2010-12-30 00:03:04 <ArtForz> my node knows pretty damn well when a new block arrives
 20 2010-12-30 00:03:07 <marioxcc> well, tellme about your approach
 21 2010-12-30 00:03:43 <ArtForz> miner connects to node, node sends "start working on block header X" and "update nTime to Y" messages
 22 2010-12-30 00:03:56 <afed> now i'm getting ~280 megahashes :)
 23 2010-12-30 00:04:04 <afed> with 6970 bios and clock speeds
 24 2010-12-30 00:04:17 <ArtForz> miner responds with #nonces completed since the prev message as soon as it actually does it
 25 2010-12-30 00:04:31 <marioxcc> ArtForz: well, i mean cpuminer
 26 2010-12-30 00:04:46 <marioxcc> i don't know wheter slush sever support your approach
 27 2010-12-30 00:04:50 <ArtForz> well, don't blame me for m0 and satoshi using a bass-ackwards approach for getwork
 28 2010-12-30 00:05:10 <marioxcc> ???bass-ackwards?
 29 2010-12-30 00:05:56 <nanotube> ArtForz: maybe you can suggest to them the better approach? :)
 30 2010-12-30 00:06:25 <gribble> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bass+Ackwards | Ass backwards. The state doing (or having done) something the wrong way.
 31 2010-12-30 00:06:25 <nanotube> ;;ud bass-ackwards
 32 2010-12-30 00:06:28 <nanotube> marioxcc: --^
 33 2010-12-30 00:06:41 <marioxcc> ok
 34 2010-12-30 00:06:57 <nanotube> (though that said... my ass faces backwards normally... so the expression makes no sense. :) it should be ass forwards.)
 35 2010-12-30 00:07:18 <da2ce7> ass-in-mouth kind of way
 36 2010-12-30 00:07:29 <marioxcc> haha
 37 2010-12-30 00:08:00 <nanotube> fass-orwards? heh
 38 2010-12-30 00:09:40 <marioxcc> nanotube: LOL
 39 2010-12-30 00:24:44 <tcatm> Which video codec is state-of-the-art for videos on websites?
 40 2010-12-30 00:25:59 <tcatm> Problem solved, x264 compressed 40 secs of 1280x720 into ~750kb :)
 41 2010-12-30 00:26:14 <marioxcc> tcatm: the above phrase is meaningless
 42 2010-12-30 00:26:28 <marioxcc> virtually any code can compress any video length to any size
 43 2010-12-30 00:26:45 <marioxcc> is the video entropy and output quality what makes the difference
 44 2010-12-30 00:28:00 <tcatm> http://bitcoincharts.com/media/stuff/bitcoin.avi bitcoin's commit log visualized using code_swarm
 45 2010-12-30 01:05:55 <BoBeR> open codecs ftw
 46 2010-12-30 01:20:31 <da2ce7> lol, the 5970 is too long! Getting two 6950's insted.
 47 2010-12-30 01:21:34 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: er, thats a bad trade
 48 2010-12-30 01:21:43 <Diablo-D3> you'd really want two 5870s
 49 2010-12-30 01:23:10 <ArtForz> or just get a $20 case and a dremel :P
 50 2010-12-30 01:23:17 <da2ce7> diavlo-d3, afed said that he could get 280mhps on the 6950
 51 2010-12-30 01:23:35 <ArtForz> 6950 @ 6970 shaders + clocks
 52 2010-12-30 01:23:49 <ArtForz> which is quite a bit short of the ~310Mh/s it should be getting theoretically
 53 2010-12-30 01:24:02 <da2ce7> yeah, that is what I'm planning to do.
 54 2010-12-30 01:24:44 <ArtForz> and thats not "absolute theoretical peak", thats diablominer on 58xx numbers scaled to 69xx #shader ALUs and clocks
 55 2010-12-30 01:24:48 <da2ce7> it works out cheaper, than buying a new case. Just means I need to retire (sell) two cards.
 56 2010-12-30 01:29:30 <ArtForz> I dont see how it can be cheaper
 57 2010-12-30 01:30:05 <ArtForz> looks like a 5970 is about as fast as 2 6970s
 58 2010-12-30 01:30:28 <ArtForz> and 2*6970 should be north of 400W in power
 59 2010-12-30 01:31:16 <Diablo-D3> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ-OcS2Gwvk
 60 2010-12-30 01:31:17 <Diablo-D3> ffff
 61 2010-12-30 01:31:31 <marioxcc> ArtForz: how do you know how much power do they use?
 62 2010-12-30 01:31:41 <ArtForz> magic!
 63 2010-12-30 01:31:56 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: do me a favor
 64 2010-12-30 01:31:59 <Diablo-D3> https://code.google.com/p/smhasher/source/browse/trunk/MurmurHash3.cpp?r=75#365
 65 2010-12-30 01:32:08 <Diablo-D3> http://pastebin.ca/2033854
 66 2010-12-30 01:32:14 <Diablo-D3> are those equiv?
 67 2010-12-30 01:34:01 <ArtForz> I assume bmix64 is a macro?
 68 2010-12-30 01:34:15 <Diablo-D3> no, its another method I havent copied over yet
 69 2010-12-30 01:34:21 <Diablo-D3> in the original C its above that
 70 2010-12-30 01:34:52 <ArtForz> C with refs?
 71 2010-12-30 01:35:20 <ArtForz> I fucking hate implicit pass-by-ref
 72 2010-12-30 01:36:35 <ArtForz> I think your last-partial-bock processing os wrong
 73 2010-12-30 01:36:52 <BoBeR> ;;math,60/25
 74 2010-12-30 01:36:53 <gribble> Error: "math,60/25" is not a valid command.
 75 2010-12-30 01:36:59 <BoBeR> ;;calc,60/25
 76 2010-12-30 01:36:59 <gribble> Error: "calc,60/25" is not a valid command.
 77 2010-12-30 01:37:01 <ArtForz> tail is a uint8*
 78 2010-12-30 01:37:17 <Kiba> ReadWriteWeb interviewed bitcoin!
 79 2010-12-30 01:37:19 <Kiba> err
 80 2010-12-30 01:37:23 <Kiba> a bitcoin developer!
 81 2010-12-30 01:42:34 <ArtForz> yeah, I think your last-block processing is wrong
 82 2010-12-30 01:43:39 <Kiba> man
 83 2010-12-30 01:43:50 <Kiba> I am seeing like 30 tweets about bitcoin at once retweeting the same interview
 84 2010-12-30 01:44:10 <BoBeR> NEW RECORD
 85 2010-12-30 01:45:42 <da2ce7> kiba, do you have a link?
 86 2010-12-30 01:45:47 <Cusipzzz> linky
 87 2010-12-30 01:46:12 <Kiba> http://www.readwriteweb.com/hack/2010/12/interview-bitcoin.php
 88 2010-12-30 01:46:35 <BoBeR> LINKS GALORE
 89 2010-12-30 01:48:25 <mrb__> 18:23 < da2ce7> diavlo-d3, afed said that he could get 280mhps on the 6950
 90 2010-12-30 01:48:44 <ArtForz> *headdesk*
 91 2010-12-30 01:48:44 <mrb__> I bet that's because the miner he used assumed 20 SIMDs per GPU. the 6950 has 22 SIMDs
 92 2010-12-30 01:48:58 <mrb__> that accounts exactly for the 10% diff in expected perf
 93 2010-12-30 01:49:04 <ArtForz> 280MHPS on a 6950 flashed to 6970
 94 2010-12-30 01:49:12 <mrb__> still
 95 2010-12-30 01:49:22 <mrb__> miner must probably assume 20 SIMDs
 96 2010-12-30 01:49:34 <mrb__> and launch a number of threads optimized for 20 SIMDs
 97 2010-12-30 01:49:46 <ArtForz> stock 6950 got 233
 98 2010-12-30 01:50:00 <mrb__> the increase comes from the MHz increase
 99 2010-12-30 01:50:10 <ArtForz> or maybe the OpenCL compiler prduces crappy IL for that kernel for 69xx
100 2010-12-30 01:50:19 <mrb__> basically I think he was benchamrking 20 SIMDs at the 6970 freq
101 2010-12-30 01:50:36 <ArtForz> HE GOT 233 ON A STOCK 5950
102 2010-12-30 01:50:41 <ArtForz> 6950 FUCK
103 2010-12-30 01:51:03 <ArtForz> and a 10% clock increase doesnt account for 233 -> 280
104 2010-12-30 01:51:40 <ArtForz> 10% clock increase + 9% shader count increase does
105 2010-12-30 01:53:17 <mrb__> I don't think you understand me
106 2010-12-30 01:53:51 <mrb__> a 6950 should be doing 262 Mhash/s with m0mchil's miner
107 2010-12-30 01:53:55 <ArtForz> yep
108 2010-12-30 01:54:06 <ArtForz> the OCL runtime probably uses crappy work dims or procudes horrible IL for 69xx
109 2010-12-30 01:54:44 <mrb__> assuming m0mchil's miner configures the number of thread optimized for 20 SIMDS then: 262*20/22. = 238 Mhash/s and he measured about this number
110 2010-12-30 01:54:58 <mrb__> at 6950 shaders and clocks
111 2010-12-30 01:55:08 <ArtForz> except you dont do anything with the SIMD number manually in OCL
112 2010-12-30 01:55:23 <ArtForz> you just set local and global workqueue size
113 2010-12-30 01:55:40 <mrb__> ...which effectively is mapped to a certain number of threads
114 2010-12-30 01:55:55 <ArtForz> yes, internally, by the OCL runtime
115 2010-12-30 01:56:12 <mrb__> when writing IL code the number of threads has to be fine-tuned to fully exploit all the SIMDs, use full wavefronts, etc
116 2010-12-30 01:56:27 <mrb__> OpenCL just provides abstractions for the same thing
117 2010-12-30 01:56:32 <ArtForz> yep
118 2010-12-30 01:56:40 <ArtForz> iirc ocl local work size corresponds to wavefront multiples
119 2010-12-30 01:56:50 <ArtForz> = 64, 128 and 256 are good bets on 5xxx
120 2010-12-30 01:56:51 <mrb__> in the end I am sure m0mchil's miner can be fine tuned to reach the expected 262 Mhash/s
121 2010-12-30 01:57:02 <Diablo-D3> [09:34:52] <ArtForz> C with refs?
122 2010-12-30 01:57:04 <Diablo-D3> welcome to C.
123 2010-12-30 01:58:49 <ArtForz> no, welcome to bastard assfuck C-with-fucking-pass-by-ref crap, just use a fucking pointer
124 2010-12-30 01:59:41 <ArtForz> somefunc(a,b,&c) ... hmm... I wonder which parameter might get modified by this function
125 2010-12-30 02:00:28 <OneFixt> ArtForz: ++
126 2010-12-30 02:00:46 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: so does the java look right?
127 2010-12-30 02:00:48 <ArtForz> no
128 2010-12-30 02:00:59 <Diablo-D3> hrm
129 2010-12-30 02:01:05 <Diablo-D3> well, the tail handling
130 2010-12-30 02:01:06 <Diablo-D3> does
131 2010-12-30 02:01:10 <Diablo-D3> see nblocks?
132 2010-12-30 02:01:12 <Diablo-D3> thats 16 bytes
133 2010-12-30 02:01:18 <Diablo-D3> I feed it longs
134 2010-12-30 02:01:18 <Kiba> well, it seem that we're going to be FAMOUS :D
135 2010-12-30 02:01:20 <Diablo-D3> ergo
136 2010-12-30 02:01:26 <Diablo-D3> there can only be two choices
137 2010-12-30 02:01:27 <BoBeR> who is we
138 2010-12-30 02:01:29 <ArtForz> well, what happens if length is a multiple of 16 bytes?
139 2010-12-30 02:01:29 <Kiba> well, at least bitcoin
140 2010-12-30 02:01:43 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: case 1.
141 2010-12-30 02:02:03 <ArtForz> yours seem to process all blocks then in the main loop AND do another xor
142 2010-12-30 02:02:45 <ArtForz> notice no case 0  in the switch
143 2010-12-30 02:02:53 <Diablo-D3> hrm
144 2010-12-30 02:02:55 <Diablo-D3> rutrow
145 2010-12-30 02:02:58 <Diablo-D3> so theres only one case
146 2010-12-30 02:03:05 <Diablo-D3> if its odd.
147 2010-12-30 02:03:39 <Diablo-D3> uint8_t tail is set to the last set of bytes that is not contained in a block of 16 bytes
148 2010-12-30 02:03:53 <ArtForz> yeah, it's ... weird
149 2010-12-30 02:03:54 <Diablo-D3> it then pads them to the nearest long
150 2010-12-30 02:03:58 <Diablo-D3> and then does its shit
151 2010-12-30 02:04:10 <Diablo-D3> but if Im only using multiples of 8
152 2010-12-30 02:04:13 <Diablo-D3> there can only be two cases
153 2010-12-30 02:04:38 <ArtForz> yeah
154 2010-12-30 02:04:40 <Diablo-D3> and theres no case 0
155 2010-12-30 02:04:56 <ArtForz> yes, because it doesnt do the tail-processing if data is a multiple of 16 bytes
156 2010-12-30 02:05:08 <Diablo-D3> yeah exactly
157 2010-12-30 02:05:18 <ArtForz> wait a second
158 2010-12-30 02:06:04 <ArtForz> is that C for Le or Be system?
159 2010-12-30 02:06:21 <Diablo-D3> uh
160 2010-12-30 02:06:22 <Diablo-D3> art problem
161 2010-12-30 02:06:26 <Diablo-D3> 16 & 15 = 1.
162 2010-12-30 02:06:36 <ArtForz> wtf
163 2010-12-30 02:07:04 <ArtForz> >>> 16 & 15
164 2010-12-30 02:07:16 <ArtForz> this fucking code is fucking stupid
165 2010-12-30 02:07:21 <BoBeR> 16 & 16 = 32
166 2010-12-30 02:07:28 <ArtForz> it's just "0-pad to next multiple of 16 bytes"
167 2010-12-30 02:07:29 <BoBeR> dunno what you guys are doing wrong
168 2010-12-30 02:07:37 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: exactly
169 2010-12-30 02:07:45 <tcatm> What core are you talking about?
170 2010-12-30 02:08:28 <ArtForz> so your code is also kinda inefficient
171 2010-12-30 02:08:29 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: so the ONLY case is if odd set k1 to the left over long, right?
172 2010-12-30 02:08:37 <ArtForz> yep
173 2010-12-30 02:08:43 <Diablo-D3> k1 and not k2, right?
174 2010-12-30 02:08:50 <ArtForz> k2 stays 0 in that case
175 2010-12-30 02:09:33 <ArtForz> so for each pair of longs do a round, if you have a odd number do a k1= last long; k2 = 0; one more bmix round;
176 2010-12-30 02:09:45 <Diablo-D3> yes
177 2010-12-30 02:09:49 <Diablo-D3> which means
178 2010-12-30 02:09:57 <Diablo-D3> I I had my original code backwards
179 2010-12-30 02:10:19 <ArtForz> and the last bmix belongs in the if(odd)
180 2010-12-30 02:10:25 <Diablo-D3> yes
181 2010-12-30 02:10:48 <ArtForz> also your code seems to only allow length multiple of 8
182 2010-12-30 02:11:10 <ArtForz> len in the orig code can be anything
183 2010-12-30 02:11:19 <ArtForz> the h2 ^= len part
184 2010-12-30 02:11:29 <ArtForz> while yours does h2 ^= num_blocks * 8
185 2010-12-30 02:11:36 <ArtForz> which isnt quite the same
186 2010-12-30 02:12:48 <ArtForz> if I hash 1 byte, len is 1 in the C code, it ends up 8 in yours
187 2010-12-30 02:13:58 <Diablo-D3> yes, I only allow multiple of 8 for a reason
188 2010-12-30 02:14:04 <Diablo-D3> I cant do the casting tricks
189 2010-12-30 02:14:13 <Diablo-D3> I cant cast 4 bytes into a long
190 2010-12-30 02:14:18 <Diablo-D3> without a temporary copy and shifting
191 2010-12-30 02:14:19 <ArtForz> 8 bytes
192 2010-12-30 02:14:28 <Diablo-D3> er 8
193 2010-12-30 02:14:36 <ArtForz> yeah
194 2010-12-30 02:15:01 <ArtForz> and Ithink your h assigment indexes are wrong at the top
195 2010-12-30 02:15:27 <Diablo-D3> yes should be 0 and 1
196 2010-12-30 02:15:40 <ArtForz> otehrwise yep, shoudl be equiv
197 2010-12-30 02:23:54 <da2ce7> woot! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEFMAP0mTvY&feature=player_embedded
198 2010-12-30 02:24:46 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: you do know what the failure with the ps3 was, right?
199 2010-12-30 02:24:59 <Diablo-D3> ibm signed their root key, the one burned into the chip handling DRM
200 2010-12-30 02:25:01 <Diablo-D3> on
201 2010-12-30 02:25:09 <Diablo-D3> a debian system with the famous broken openssl
202 2010-12-30 02:25:31 <EvanR> lol
203 2010-12-30 02:25:35 <ArtForz> soudns wrong
204 2010-12-30 02:25:48 <Diablo-D3> I know the guy who actually discovered this
205 2010-12-30 02:26:14 <Diablo-D3> evanR: and now, every single ps3 is broken
206 2010-12-30 02:26:27 <Diablo-D3> wanna bypass drm and root your shit? replace the core firmware image.
207 2010-12-30 02:26:33 <ArtForz> errr... the PS3 attack iirc is something different
208 2010-12-30 02:26:44 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: nope, this is the ps3 attack
209 2010-12-30 02:26:46 <ArtForz> sony fucked up signing the GAMES
210 2010-12-30 02:26:52 <ArtForz> the key would be preferctly fine
211 2010-12-30 02:26:55 <Diablo-D3> none of the news is repeating it right
212 2010-12-30 02:27:03 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: nope, the _master key_ is now known
213 2010-12-30 02:27:07 <ArtForz> not a weak key, they used the same secret random never-to-be-used-twice nonce ... twice
214 2010-12-30 02:27:09 <EvanR> dont they get these keys with similar technology to star trek the next generation picard simply asking data to scan the device with sensors
215 2010-12-30 02:27:21 <Diablo-D3> evanR: no
216 2010-12-30 02:27:26 <ArtForz> which allows you to recover the privatze key from pubkey, the 2 hashes and signatiures
217 2010-12-30 02:27:43 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: now anyone can replace the bootloader
218 2010-12-30 02:27:49 <ArtForz> yep
219 2010-12-30 02:27:49 <Diablo-D3> on the ps3, the bootloader loads the firmware.
220 2010-12-30 02:27:51 <ArtForz> read up on how DSA works
221 2010-12-30 02:28:04 <ArtForz> its not a broken private key, they fucking USED IT WRONG
222 2010-12-30 02:28:09 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: nope
223 2010-12-30 02:28:22 <Diablo-D3> the news is covering it wrong
224 2010-12-30 02:28:30 <Diablo-D3> IBM used a broken debian openssl release.
225 2010-12-30 02:28:39 <EvanR> if you dont want someone to have something, dont give it to them
226 2010-12-30 02:28:49 <ArtForz> I'm not going to watch the 27C3 talk again just to hand you the timestamp
227 2010-12-30 02:28:59 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: the guys giving the talk didnt even discover the flaw
228 2010-12-30 02:29:23 <ArtForz> still has NOITHING TO DO AT ALL with debian broken OSSL
229 2010-12-30 02:29:41 <ArtForz> they didnt use one-out-of-32768 possible noces to create the sigs, theay all use THE SAME NONCE
230 2010-12-30 02:29:43 <Diablo-D3> you mean except for the fact the key was weak and they brute forced it in almost none of the time?
231 2010-12-30 02:30:15 <Diablo-D3> you can now produce your own keys that any unhacked ps3 will accept.
232 2010-12-30 02:30:23 <ArtForz> yes
233 2010-12-30 02:30:30 <ArtForz> and it's not IBMs or debians fault
234 2010-12-30 02:30:36 <Diablo-D3> its not debian's, no
235 2010-12-30 02:30:38 <Diablo-D3> but it is IBM's
236 2010-12-30 02:30:42 <ArtForz> it's sonys fault for FUCKING USING DSA WRONG
237 2010-12-30 02:30:45 <Diablo-D3> sony didnt create the key.
238 2010-12-30 02:31:04 <ArtForz> THE KEY WAS FINE AND SECRET UNTI LSONY SIGNED 2 HASHES WITH THEN  SAME FUCKING NONCE
239 2010-12-30 02:31:19 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: Im not sure why you keep repeating that
240 2010-12-30 02:31:23 <Diablo-D3> thats not what happened
241 2010-12-30 02:31:34 <Diablo-D3> either that, or they're using it as a cover for the real deal
242 2010-12-30 02:32:09 <ArtForz> remember how [Ec]DSA works?
243 2010-12-30 02:32:10 <ArtForz> Calculate e = HASH(m), where HASH is a cryptographic hash function, such as SHA-1, and let z be the Ln leftmost bits of e.
244 2010-12-30 02:32:31 <ArtForz> guess what happens when you use the same k for 2 different m
245 2010-12-30 02:32:33 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: either that, or they produced two of the same nonce, randomly.
246 2010-12-30 02:32:44 <Diablo-D3> who knows, maybe they used all of them on the broken openssl already
247 2010-12-30 02:32:46 <ArtForz> for each and every game?
248 2010-12-30 02:33:04 <ArtForz> every game exe is signed, all use the *same* k
249 2010-12-30 02:33:11 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: that sounds wrong
250 2010-12-30 02:33:13 <Diablo-D3> sony isnt that stupid
251 2010-12-30 02:33:29 <ArtForz> thats why they call it EPIC FAIL in the 27C3 presentation
252 2010-12-30 02:33:42 <da2ce7> lol
253 2010-12-30 02:34:13 <Diablo-D3> except the EPIC FAIL is you require zero games to crack the key.
254 2010-12-30 02:34:23 <Kiba> large amount of tweeting about read write web but it seem to fail to have much impact on the forum
255 2010-12-30 02:34:45 <ArtForz> okay, then pray tell the PRNG seed used on debian to generate that key?
256 2010-12-30 02:34:49 <Cusipzzz> full of sound and fury, signifying nothing
257 2010-12-30 02:35:23 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yes.
258 2010-12-30 02:37:06 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: the rmsk in the cell is broken. period.
259 2010-12-30 02:37:12 <Diablo-D3> its an ibm problem, not a sony problem
260 2010-12-30 02:37:24 <Diablo-D3> that means
261 2010-12-30 02:37:40 <ArtForz> whatever dude
262 2010-12-30 02:37:41 <Diablo-D3> I can take the ibm bootrom, and shove my foot up it's ass, wiggle it around, and shit works
263 2010-12-30 02:38:09 <ArtForz> sony disclosing a perfectly safe key by fucking using DSA wrong != IBM generating a unsafe key
264 2010-12-30 02:38:30 <Diablo-D3> yes, and the media needs to learn how to report the issue
265 2010-12-30 02:42:18 <Diablo-D3> [10:36:14] <nenolod> Diablo-D3: sony didn't fucking do it
266 2010-12-30 02:42:19 <Diablo-D3> [10:36:16] <nenolod> Diablo-D3: IBM did it
267 2010-12-30 02:42:30 <ArtForz> *headdesk*
268 2010-12-30 02:42:32 <Diablo-D3> [10:36:49] <nenolod> Diablo-D3: sony's keys are completely irrelevant
269 2010-12-30 02:42:33 <Diablo-D3> [10:36:54] <nenolod> Diablo-D3: it's burned into the damn CPU
270 2010-12-30 02:42:44 <Diablo-D3> [10:39:18] <nenolod> Diablo-D3:  -> game (Vendor VSK signed by SCEI MSK || SCEA/SCEJ/SCEE RSK)
271 2010-12-30 02:43:34 <Diablo-D3> [10:43:17] <nenolod> the thing is
272 2010-12-30 02:43:35 <Diablo-D3> [10:43:24] <nenolod> you can't replace lv0 without a signature from IBM
273 2010-12-30 02:46:12 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: so, there.
274 2010-12-30 02:46:56 <ArtForz> nenolod, the guy who added and removed 1Gh/s without the network hashrate changing a single bit?
275 2010-12-30 02:47:10 <ArtForz> and that back when the total network was ~500Mh/s ?
276 2010-12-30 02:47:49 <Diablo-D3> nenolod, the guy whos written more software on the ps3 than you, yes.
277 2010-12-30 02:49:09 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: this means I can replace sony's firmware
278 2010-12-30 02:49:10 <Diablo-D3> with my own
279 2010-12-30 02:49:15 <Diablo-D3> and they cant stop me
280 2010-12-30 02:50:17 <donpdonp> interesting 27C3 video on that ps3 stuff.
281 2010-12-30 02:51:16 <donpdonp> they said it was two signatures generated with the same nonce and because of that, the private key was revealed. the problem did not seem to be the key itself.
282 2010-12-30 02:51:39 <Diablo-D3> donpdonp: which is bs, sony can revoke master keys afiak
283 2010-12-30 02:52:17 <donpdonp> the talk did mention revokation lists, but it didnt seem to be a problem for them.
284 2010-12-30 02:52:30 <Diablo-D3> if its the cell rmsk, you CANT revoke that
285 2010-12-30 02:52:36 <Diablo-D3> its burned into the cell.
286 2010-12-30 03:05:18 <da2ce7> we need to make 'ps3 bitcoin' :D
287 2010-12-30 03:05:31 <Diablo-D3> not really
288 2010-12-30 03:05:46 <Diablo-D3> ibm has an opencl compiler for cell spes
289 2010-12-30 03:05:54 <ArtForz> even using all SPEs cell is less efficient than a PhenomII
290 2010-12-30 03:06:01 <Diablo-D3> yup
291 2010-12-30 03:06:21 <da2ce7> no, for transaction :)
292 2010-12-30 03:06:38 <da2ce7> you could buy homebrew games with bitcoin.
293 2010-12-30 03:10:47 <da2ce7> it should be easy to extract a proportion of your private bitcoin keys, and make a new wallet.  You could use the smaller wallet for every day use.
294 2010-12-30 03:11:14 <da2ce7> but still have a backup in you large wallet.
295 2010-12-30 03:12:02 <Diablo-D3> heh
296 2010-12-30 03:12:11 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: just send coins to yourself on a different client
297 2010-12-30 03:18:24 <da2ce7> but I need to keep track and backup two wallets then.  It would be better if I could have a one wallet that is small, and on my laptop that I don't need to worry about.
298 2010-12-30 03:18:38 <da2ce7> My big wallet would be a super-set of my smaler ones.
299 2010-12-30 03:21:49 <sloob> Hello all, I was looking over the bitcoin documentation. Is it correct to say that the specs are derived from the code and not vice versa?
300 2010-12-30 03:21:59 <da2ce7> yep
301 2010-12-30 03:22:22 <sloob> Is this because it's still in flux or just because the original creator hasn't documented it?
302 2010-12-30 03:22:39 <da2ce7> The official specification is the c++ code
303 2010-12-30 03:22:43 <sloob> I guess in a roundabout way, is it expected to change soon
304 2010-12-30 03:22:49 <sloob> is my question
305 2010-12-30 03:22:54 <sloob> okeydoke.
306 2010-12-30 03:23:04 <da2ce7> hopefully oneday it will be the other way arround.
307 2010-12-30 03:23:14 <Diablo-D3> its both
308 2010-12-30 03:23:18 <Diablo-D3> the spec spawned the code
309 2010-12-30 03:23:25 <Diablo-D3> then satoshi realized the spec was bullshit
310 2010-12-30 03:23:30 <Diablo-D3> he needs to update the spec
311 2010-12-30 03:23:43 <sloob> ok
312 2010-12-30 03:23:46 <Kiba> a pro artist
313 2010-12-30 03:24:04 <sloob> I was interested in trying to implement a wallet in Java
314 2010-12-30 03:24:16 <sloob> So I'm looking it over
315 2010-12-30 03:24:22 <Diablo-D3> sloob: oh thats easy, its just a bdb 4.7 database
316 2010-12-30 03:24:33 <sloob> OK
317 2010-12-30 03:24:46 <Diablo-D3> so use bdb (4.7 only) in java, and its done
318 2010-12-30 03:25:02 <sloob> I have been messing around with JavaCard, and was like, this would be a cool, secure place to put a wallet
319 2010-12-30 03:25:15 <sloob> I don't think the storage space is large enough tho
320 2010-12-30 03:25:18 <Diablo-D3> you mean except for ... yeah
321 2010-12-30 03:25:22 <Diablo-D3> not enough storage space
322 2010-12-30 03:25:48 <sloob> if they were as cheap as promised, you could hand off hard transactions in one...but they aren't
323 2010-12-30 03:27:13 <sloob> My first goal is just to get a wallet and transactions going in a Java app so it can be used for J2EE, then I want to look at ways to transfer bitcoin outside a computer
324 2010-12-30 03:27:39 <sloob> like a gift certificate or something
325 2010-12-30 03:28:31 <nanotube> sloob: iirc there's a java bitcoin client project out there on sourceforge somewhere.
326 2010-12-30 03:28:49 <sloob> Thanks, I will take a look at that
327 2010-12-30 03:28:53 <gribble> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin-client/ | Sep 30, 2010 ... Get Java Bitcoin Client at SourceForge.net. Fast, secure and free downloads from the largest Open Source applications and software ...
328 2010-12-30 03:28:53 <nanotube> ;;sl java bitcoin client
329 2010-12-30 03:28:57 <nanotube> yea that looks like it.
330 2010-12-30 03:29:34 <Kiba> with the constant barrage of tweeting traffic, you would think the forum traffic would spike
331 2010-12-30 03:29:36 <Kiba> by now
332 2010-12-30 03:29:59 <sloob> I've known about bitcoin for quite some time, mined a few coins, but have been lazy about getting on board doing actual projects with it
333 2010-12-30 03:30:13 <nanotube> sloob: hope you still have your mined coins. :)
334 2010-12-30 03:30:20 <sloob> I'm just here because I'm unemployed and have free time in the evenings :-/
335 2010-12-30 03:30:54 <nanotube> Kiba: hitting the 'tweet' button is a lot less effort-intensive than signing up to a forum and actually posting something constructive.
336 2010-12-30 03:31:01 <nanotube> so not really much of a surprise. :)
337 2010-12-30 03:31:12 <sloob> makes sense
338 2010-12-30 03:31:24 <nanotube> sloob: if you are unemployed, why don't you have free time during the day, too? :)
339 2010-12-30 03:31:25 <sloob> I would have figured the few times that Slashdot has mentioned it would pull some people in
340 2010-12-30 03:31:35 <sloob> haha, job hunting is a job itself
341 2010-12-30 03:31:38 <nanotube> hehe ic
342 2010-12-30 03:31:40 <Kiba> nanotube: just visiting the forum..due
343 2010-12-30 03:31:44 <Kiba> s/due/dude
344 2010-12-30 03:31:47 <Kiba> no need to register
345 2010-12-30 03:31:52 <nanotube> Kiba: is there a visitor count?
346 2010-12-30 03:32:23 <nanotube> oh yes, 17 guests, 22 users
347 2010-12-30 03:32:33 <nanotube> how does the 17 guests compare to usual?
348 2010-12-30 03:32:43 <Kiba> don't know
349 2010-12-30 03:32:50 <Kiba> but usually quests are more than users I thik
350 2010-12-30 03:32:53 <Kiba> err
351 2010-12-30 03:35:16 <nanotube> mm
352 2010-12-30 03:44:56 <sloob> so, there's an attempt to get bitcoin in the zeitgeist right now?
353 2010-12-30 03:45:18 <Kiba> sometime deliberate
354 2010-12-30 03:45:20 <Kiba> sometime not
355 2010-12-30 03:45:39 <Kiba> like bitcoin meme hooking itself to the wikileak meme
356 2010-12-30 03:45:56 <Kiba> Bitcoin as a meme seem to be quite viral
357 2010-12-30 03:46:10 <sloob> it was never clear to me how that would work since inevitably you need some sort of payment processor or bank to do the conversion
358 2010-12-30 03:46:22 <sloob> I mean whomever is handling it is gonna use a bank
359 2010-12-30 03:46:24 <Kiba> what conversion?
360 2010-12-30 03:46:50 <sloob> like bitcoin to dollar
361 2010-12-30 03:47:28 <sloob> I bought a few bitcoin on paypal once and the place got shut down by paypal
362 2010-12-30 03:48:23 <Kiba> hmm
363 2010-12-30 03:48:24 <Kiba> mtgox?
364 2010-12-30 03:48:27 <Kiba> mtgox isn't dead
365 2010-12-30 03:48:30 <Kiba> it's alive!
366 2010-12-30 03:48:41 <sloob> are they back to doing paypal transactions again?
367 2010-12-30 03:48:44 <Kiba> no
368 2010-12-30 03:48:51 <Kiba> you have to buy LR USD instead
369 2010-12-30 03:48:58 <ArtForz> mtgox switched to LibertyReserve
370 2010-12-30 03:49:01 <sloob> ok
371 2010-12-30 03:49:03 <Kiba> but you can buy with paypal dollars on #bitcoin-otc
372 2010-12-30 03:49:11 <Kiba> to get it transfered to mtgox
373 2010-12-30 03:49:17 <sloob> OK, thanks
374 2010-12-30 03:49:19 <sloob> that's super useful
375 2010-12-30 03:49:36 <Kiba> you have to deal with individual users though
376 2010-12-30 03:50:26 <sloob> no prob
377 2010-12-30 03:50:31 <sloob> how is fraud mitigated
378 2010-12-30 03:50:44 <sloob> or does it just use trust
379 2010-12-30 03:51:09 <nanotube> yes
380 2010-12-30 03:55:07 <Kiba> the bitcoin economy is about 1.5 million dollars
381 2010-12-30 03:55:11 <Kiba> pretty damn small
382 2010-12-30 03:56:07 <nanotube> but also pretty decent, for something so new. :)
383 2010-12-30 03:56:17 <sloob> yeah
384 2010-12-30 03:56:47 <sloob> I have been thinking a lot about how the bitcoin network would be attacked
385 2010-12-30 03:57:00 <sloob> like, if someone wanted to disrupt the economy
386 2010-12-30 03:57:31 <sloob> there are ways around it, but if the IRC channel negotiating connections went down, I Assume that would be catastrophic
387 2010-12-30 03:57:40 <Kiba> no
388 2010-12-30 03:57:51 <Kiba> each bitcoin client have a list of backup node to connect
389 2010-12-30 03:58:28 <sloob> Can you get bootstrapped back into the network via one other client
390 2010-12-30 03:58:41 <Kiba> and each client collect their own addresses to connect to I think
391 2010-12-30 03:59:08 <sloob> like, embed a magnet link in a webpage or tweet or something, people connect to it and it gets up and going again
392 2010-12-30 04:00:43 <Kiba> whatever you come up with, I am sure it's not new
393 2010-12-30 04:00:49 <Kiba> try searching the forum for once
394 2010-12-30 04:01:08 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: did ya answer my interview question yet?
395 2010-12-30 04:01:10 <sloob> I'm not inventing anything, I was just asking for confirmation because it wasn't clear to me
396 2010-12-30 04:01:23 <sloob> I read the section someone wrote on magnet links
397 2010-12-30 04:01:42 <ArtForz> yes, if you get naother doens ip via some other meands you can just -addnode it and your node will bottstrap fro mthere
398 2010-12-30 04:01:54 <nanotube> sloob: yes if you can connect to one client, you'll get addresses of a bunch of others.
399 2010-12-30 04:02:01 <sloob> Thanks
400 2010-12-30 04:02:06 <marioxcc> sloob: what's your question?
401 2010-12-30 04:02:07 <nanotube> bah, beaten by ArtForz ;)
402 2010-12-30 04:02:17 <sloob> I'm cool, it's answered
403 2010-12-30 04:02:30 <marioxcc> ok
404 2010-12-30 04:02:32 <Kiba> No, I beat all of ya
405 2010-12-30 04:02:33 <nanotube> there's a list of fallback nodes on the wiki
406 2010-12-30 04:03:20 <marioxcc> yeah, point to point networks are very difficult to tear down
407 2010-12-30 04:03:23 <marioxcc> that's the point
408 2010-12-30 04:03:32 <marioxcc> that's how bitcoin has been designed
409 2010-12-30 04:03:40 <marioxcc> and that's how it will behave
410 2010-12-30 04:03:42 <marioxcc> :)
411 2010-12-30 04:04:34 <sloob> I've read the specs, gonna read the source code next.
412 2010-12-30 04:05:14 <marioxcc> sloob: what specs?
413 2010-12-30 04:06:21 <sloob> the reverse engineered specs at http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=bitcoins_draft_spec_0_0_1
414 2010-12-30 04:06:35 <sloob> and https://github.com/bitcoin/netspec
415 2010-12-30 04:06:58 <Kiba> I thought spec moved to en.bitocin.it the new wiki?
416 2010-12-30 04:07:05 <sloob> wa
417 2010-12-30 04:07:09 <marioxcc> sloob: that's not reverse enginnering
418 2010-12-30 04:07:21 <marioxcc> if we had only the builds or a obfuscated C code
419 2010-12-30 04:07:29 <marioxcc> then it would be reverse enginner to make a specification
420 2010-12-30 04:07:51 <marioxcc> please don't missuse the term "reverse enginnering" it can lead to very bad misunderstanding
421 2010-12-30 04:08:23 <marioxcc> someone which sees a statemen such as "there is a revese enginnering spec of bitcoin in ..." may thought the bitcoin client and protocol are proprietary
422 2010-12-30 04:08:25 <marioxcc> that's not the case
423 2010-12-30 04:08:42 <marioxcc> thanks in advance :9
424 2010-12-30 04:08:45 <marioxcc> oh
425 2010-12-30 04:08:48 <marioxcc> :)
426 2010-12-30 04:08:49 <marioxcc> hehe
427 2010-12-30 04:09:31 <sloob> It's not proprietary, but the code is the authority, right? as opposed to being programmed from a spec first
428 2010-12-30 04:09:45 <ArtForz> kinda
429 2010-12-30 04:09:57 <sloob> I'm not trying to offend or anything, pls don't misunderstand.
430 2010-12-30 04:10:07 <marioxcc> sloob: i feel offended
431 2010-12-30 04:10:09 <sloob> I won't use the term reverse engineer though, point taken
432 2010-12-30 04:10:20 <marioxcc> that's why i gave an explanion :)
433 2010-12-30 04:10:27 <marioxcc> i appreciate your understanding
434 2010-12-30 04:10:32 <sloob> np
435 2010-12-30 04:10:50 <ArtForz> the bitcoin paper pretty much defines how the underlying crypto works, implementation details are "documented" by haveing a reference implementation
436 2010-12-30 04:10:55 <ArtForz> so yeha, it's mostly spec-by-code
437 2010-12-30 04:10:55 <Kiba> writing my own graphic novel
438 2010-12-30 04:11:02 <Kiba> inventing cool stuff
439 2010-12-30 04:11:05 <Kiba> drawing my own grpahic novel
440 2010-12-30 04:11:21 <sloob> Kiba, do you have samples or anything
441 2010-12-30 04:11:39 <gribble> Google found nothing.
442 2010-12-30 04:11:39 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki protocol spec
443 2010-12-30 04:11:41 <nanotube> hah
444 2010-12-30 04:11:47 <Kiba> http://www.bitcoinservice.co.uk/files/68
445 2010-12-30 04:11:47 <marioxcc> Kiba: i would love to see a post-quantum public key encryption scheme
446 2010-12-30 04:12:18 <nanotube> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_Specification
447 2010-12-30 04:12:50 <sloob> nice. I have a number of artist friends, a few professional
448 2010-12-30 04:13:11 <sloob> nanotube: thanks!!!
449 2010-12-30 04:13:20 <marioxcc> it seems a bit like anime
450 2010-12-30 04:13:21 <marioxcc> hehe
451 2010-12-30 04:14:07 <nanotube> sloob: :)
452 2010-12-30 04:15:04 <Kiba> sloob: I am a noob to the whole art thing
453 2010-12-30 04:15:20 <Kiba> my competency as an artist literally have to grow
454 2010-12-30 04:15:34 <sloob> I can give useful advice in this area. I used to be in the fine arts but switched to computers for the money
455 2010-12-30 04:15:44 <sloob> draw all the time. Draw everything. The end.
456 2010-12-30 04:16:02 <Kiba> I draw too few
457 2010-12-30 04:16:11 <Kiba> because it takes forever for me to do an art
458 2010-12-30 04:16:24 <marioxcc> i can say the same of programming and me
459 2010-12-30 04:16:28 <Kiba> but I learned something...
460 2010-12-30 04:16:44 <marioxcc> of course, any art will take practice and time to learn and master
461 2010-12-30 04:17:28 <Kiba> I will be much faster in the next artwork
462 2010-12-30 04:17:37 <Kiba> because I am not scanning and then cleaning up
463 2010-12-30 04:17:41 <Kiba> which take horrific amount of time
464 2010-12-30 04:17:52 <sloob> I still do some illustration every once in a while, and though I am in many ways not as good as I used to be, I can visualize better in my head now.
465 2010-12-30 04:18:21 <sloob> if I could only take the time I put into it and the mental abilities I have now, and put them together
466 2010-12-30 04:18:32 <Kiba> learning computer art technique take time to discover
467 2010-12-30 04:18:57 <Kiba> with my programming skill...
468 2010-12-30 04:19:14 <Kiba> I am sure I can create artistic effects
469 2010-12-30 04:19:16 <Kiba> or template
470 2010-12-30 04:19:34 <sloob> If you haven't read Understanding Comics, I highly recommend it. It's starting to get fashionable to bash it, but it's one of only two books worth a carp on the subject
471 2010-12-30 04:21:49 <sloob> also, draw for yourself but be able to take criticism
472 2010-12-30 04:23:11 <sloob> that's all I have to say about that...I was at comic con a year ago shmoozing, even got invited to a party. Nearly ran into Johnen Vasquez. I mena, physically ran into.
473 2010-12-30 04:24:31 <sloob> like what
474 2010-12-30 04:25:18 <Kiba> write programs, invent self replicating robots, build company, make arts, write novels
475 2010-12-30 04:27:58 <Kiba> etc
476 2010-12-30 04:28:24 <Kiba> well
477 2010-12-30 04:28:32 <marioxcc> anskwer for P=NP?
478 2010-12-30 04:28:33 <marioxcc> *answer
479 2010-12-30 04:29:09 <sloob> lol
480 2010-12-30 04:31:07 <Kiba> I have to figure out how to compose all that into something that build me over time instead of splintering my focus in various area
481 2010-12-30 04:31:19 <sloob> yeah, that's a problem
482 2010-12-30 04:31:26 <sloob> I've not solved it yet
483 2010-12-30 04:31:30 <BoBeR> good cheap beer go
484 2010-12-30 04:31:34 <marioxcc> sloob: sure, not ever the gratest computer scientest have
485 2010-12-30 04:31:45 <sloob> oh, I Was meaning the not splintering
486 2010-12-30 04:31:56 <sloob> focus
487 2010-12-30 04:32:26 <sloob> my life is a graveyard of half-finished projects
488 2010-12-30 04:32:31 <ArtForz> yep, I know that very well
489 2010-12-30 04:32:37 <marioxcc> ah
490 2010-12-30 06:11:29 <BitcoinNewb> hello
491 2010-12-30 06:12:24 <nanotube> hey
492 2010-12-30 06:12:54 <BitcoinNewb> I just found out about bitcoin from Max kieser
493 2010-12-30 06:13:03 <nanotube> cool :)
494 2010-12-30 06:13:12 <BitcoinNewb> I was reading the wiki,and I still dont get it
495 2010-12-30 06:13:33 <BitcoinNewb> Do you spend this money on things?
496 2010-12-30 06:13:40 <BitcoinNewb> How do you even start
497 2010-12-30 06:13:46 <BitcoinNewb> investing
498 2010-12-30 06:13:55 <nanotube> you can exchange for other currencies
499 2010-12-30 06:14:07 <nanotube> or you can help the network produce blocks and get reward
500 2010-12-30 06:14:10 <BitcoinNewb> ok so I would buy some with dollars
501 2010-12-30 06:14:17 <nanotube> or you can sell stuff for bitcoin
502 2010-12-30 06:14:23 <BitcoinNewb> how do you do that?
503 2010-12-30 06:14:23 <nanotube> yes you can. see bitcoin.org/trade
504 2010-12-30 06:14:27 <nanotube> there is a list of exchanges
505 2010-12-30 06:14:36 <BitcoinNewb> ok
506 2010-12-30 06:15:01 <BitcoinNewb> So I would run a program on my computer and assist with the transactions?
507 2010-12-30 06:15:12 <BoBeR> yes
508 2010-12-30 06:15:18 <BoBeR> the bitcoin application
509 2010-12-30 06:15:22 <BitcoinNewb> like folding
510 2010-12-30 06:15:23 <BitcoinNewb> oh
511 2010-12-30 06:15:31 <nanotube> yes, kinda like folding. :)
512 2010-12-30 06:15:37 <BitcoinNewb> I thought that program was just for transfering coins
513 2010-12-30 06:15:53 <BitcoinNewb> I used to let my ps3 do that, untill it took a shit
514 2010-12-30 06:15:56 <nanotube> you can turn off block generation, and just use it for transferring.
515 2010-12-30 06:15:59 <BitcoinNewb> go figure
516 2010-12-30 06:16:04 <BitcoinNewb> I C
517 2010-12-30 06:16:16 <genjix> MT`AwAy: hey can we make the font for the sourcecode snippets in the wiki larger?
518 2010-12-30 06:16:42 <BitcoinNewb> So do you reap real rewards for doing that or is it just drops in the bucket?
519 2010-12-30 06:16:47 <genjix> it's tiny... i can hardly see it.
520 2010-12-30 06:17:47 <BitcoinNewb> So to start contributing to I need to buy some bit coins first?
521 2010-12-30 06:17:58 <Kiba> no
522 2010-12-30 06:18:05 <BitcoinNewb> I would love to support this new type of decentralized currency
523 2010-12-30 06:18:05 <Kiba> you can sell stuff or services for bitcoin
524 2010-12-30 06:18:38 <BitcoinNewb> I fix computers. Thats my trade. I could ask for payment in bitcoins then?
525 2010-12-30 06:19:09 <nanotube> yes you could
526 2010-12-30 06:19:24 <genjix> ill sell you 40 btc if u want
527 2010-12-30 06:19:28 <BitcoinNewb> Is there a market place for me to offer up my services for bitcoins
528 2010-12-30 06:19:34 <genjix> foruns
529 2010-12-30 06:19:35 <genjix> m
530 2010-12-30 06:19:36 <genjix> s
531 2010-12-30 06:19:39 <BitcoinNewb> ahh
532 2010-12-30 06:19:48 <BitcoinNewb> Sure how much?
533 2010-12-30 06:20:06 <genjix> $13
534 2010-12-30 06:20:08 <nanotube> BitcoinNewb: see #bitcoin-otc for the trading channel.
535 2010-12-30 06:20:11 <BitcoinNewb> I need to make an account right
536 2010-12-30 06:20:15 <genjix> do you have pokerstars?
537 2010-12-30 06:20:25 <BitcoinNewb> no
538 2010-12-30 06:20:25 <Kiba> BitcoinNewb: it's unlikely that you will get customers who will pay you in bitcoin, but it's a start
539 2010-12-30 06:20:32 <BitcoinNewb> I dont play online poker
540 2010-12-30 06:20:37 <BitcoinNewb> lol
541 2010-12-30 06:20:40 <BitcoinNewb> true
542 2010-12-30 06:21:02 <BitcoinNewb> this stuff is really interesting
543 2010-12-30 06:21:02 <genjix> kk
544 2010-12-30 06:21:15 <ThomasV> BitcoinNewb: http://www.bitcoin.org/trade
545 2010-12-30 06:21:27 <BitcoinNewb> So would you do the transaction with paypal or something
546 2010-12-30 06:21:46 <BitcoinNewb> how do you convert the dollars into bitcoins
547 2010-12-30 06:22:01 <ThomasV> you just buy some
548 2010-12-30 06:22:11 <BitcoinNewb> where?
549 2010-12-30 06:22:16 <BitcoinNewb> with the program?
550 2010-12-30 06:22:23 <ThomasV> see mtgox.com
551 2010-12-30 06:22:30 <BitcoinNewb> ok
552 2010-12-30 06:22:35 <BitcoinNewb> brb, and thanks
553 2010-12-30 06:23:53 <BitcoinNewb> ohhhh
554 2010-12-30 06:24:03 <BitcoinNewb> duh
555 2010-12-30 06:24:12 <BitcoinNewb> you buy it on the bitcoin exchange like any other currency
556 2010-12-30 06:24:16 <nanotube> as i mentioned before... a bunch of exchange sites listed on /trade
557 2010-12-30 06:24:18 <nanotube> yep
558 2010-12-30 06:24:34 <BitcoinNewb> is this a safe investment yet?
559 2010-12-30 06:24:43 <nanotube> nothing is a safe investment.
560 2010-12-30 06:24:44 <BitcoinNewb> its only 2 years old
561 2010-12-30 06:24:52 <BitcoinNewb> gold and silver lol
562 2010-12-30 06:24:57 <BitcoinNewb> but your right
563 2010-12-30 06:25:06 <nanotube> bitcoin is pretty risky, all things considered.
564 2010-12-30 06:25:14 <BitcoinNewb> Oh yea
565 2010-12-30 06:25:26 <ThomasV> I would say its is high risk but potentially high reward
566 2010-12-30 06:25:37 <nanotube> on the scale of russian penny stock <-> gold... bitcoin is probably closer to the penny stock. :)
567 2010-12-30 06:26:20 <nanotube> things can happen... serious flaws discovered... govt banning it or ddosing... various things. :)
568 2010-12-30 06:26:29 <BitcoinNewb> Would you say that most people participating in the market are activists?
569 2010-12-30 06:26:49 <BitcoinNewb> I dont really like the current currency markets
570 2010-12-30 06:27:03 <ThomasV> nanotube: how robust is it to ddos ?
571 2010-12-30 06:27:04 <BitcoinNewb> and would love to invest in something diffrent
572 2010-12-30 06:27:19 <nanotube> heh yea, there are a lot of austrian economists and anarchists and libertarians around. :)
573 2010-12-30 06:27:28 <BitcoinNewb> ahh
574 2010-12-30 06:27:34 <BitcoinNewb> good
575 2010-12-30 06:27:44 <nanotube> ThomasV: well, there are only a couple thousand nodes... a well-heeled attacker can probably manage it
576 2010-12-30 06:28:05 <ThomasV> how many nodes active at a given time ?
577 2010-12-30 06:28:09 <nanotube> bump off the nodes, bump off the website and bootstrap irc channel... and down it goes.
578 2010-12-30 06:28:12 <BitcoinNewb> what does that mean? Sorry bout the questions
579 2010-12-30 06:28:14 <nanotube> ThomasV: about a couple thousand.
580 2010-12-30 06:28:25 <nanotube> what does what mean, BitcoinNewb
581 2010-12-30 06:28:28 <BitcoinNewb> so hackers could kill the market
582 2010-12-30 06:29:00 <ThomasV> nodes could protect themselves by imposing a small fee on transactions, couldn't they ?
583 2010-12-30 06:29:04 <BitcoinNewb> with a ddos attack
584 2010-12-30 06:29:30 <BitcoinNewb> to pay for the needed security anti-ddos gear?
585 2010-12-30 06:29:45 <ThomasV> I think that this is the point of the fee option
586 2010-12-30 06:30:10 <nanotube> ThomasV: ddos doesn't have to be from actual bitcoin transactions. just network traffic.
587 2010-12-30 06:30:12 <BitcoinNewb> has the market been attacked?
588 2010-12-30 06:30:15 <Kiba> BitcoinNewb: we're generally not political activist
589 2010-12-30 06:30:25 <Kiba> but a market activist
590 2010-12-30 06:30:38 <BitcoinNewb> yea market activists!
591 2010-12-30 06:30:41 <nanotube> BitcoinNewb: there has been a wave of paypal fraud, a few months ago... now people are a lot more wary about taking paypal.
592 2010-12-30 06:30:58 <BitcoinNewb> I hate paypal anyway
593 2010-12-30 06:31:00 <nanotube> but on a technical level, no i'm not aware of serious attacks.
594 2010-12-30 06:31:50 <ThomasV> nanotube: who was it ?
595 2010-12-30 06:31:58 <BitcoinNewb> but the p2p structure makes it 'vulnerable to attack?
596 2010-12-30 06:32:18 <nanotube> BitcoinNewb: it makes it less vulnerable than non-p2p structure. :)
597 2010-12-30 06:32:25 <ThomasV> well the p2p structure also makes it resilient
598 2010-12-30 06:32:27 <nanotube> ThomasV: nobody knows.
599 2010-12-30 06:32:40 <BitcoinNewb> thats why you guys are trying it
600 2010-12-30 06:32:46 <BitcoinNewb> ok I see
601 2010-12-30 06:32:58 <ThomasV> nanotube: I mean, the paypal addresses must be known, or not ?
602 2010-12-30 06:33:01 <BitcoinNewb> So all I need to do is fire up the program?
603 2010-12-30 06:33:07 <BitcoinNewb> will it kill my bandwith?
604 2010-12-30 06:33:10 <nanotube> ThomasV: i understand that they were using stolen paypal accounts.
605 2010-12-30 06:33:26 <nanotube> ThomasV: so knowing addresses doesn't do much good. that said, the market runners (mtgox, for instance) would know.
606 2010-12-30 06:34:07 <ThomasV> did someone report it to paypal ?
607 2010-12-30 06:34:47 <nanotube> ThomasV: read the related forum threads. in fact, paypal froze mtgox's account, because of too many chargebacks to his account...
608 2010-12-30 06:35:08 <ThomasV> oh I see
609 2010-12-30 06:35:20 <nanotube> BitcoinNewb: no, very light bandwidth use, after your initial blockchain download.
610 2010-12-30 06:35:54 <BitcoinNewb> ok good
611 2010-12-30 06:36:07 <BitcoinNewb> I'm seeding hella torrents lol
612 2010-12-30 06:37:25 <BitcoinNewb> Cool you can even pay in cash through the mail!
613 2010-12-30 06:37:30 <BitcoinNewb> no paypal though
614 2010-12-30 06:37:47 <ThomasV> nanotube: if Alice gives bitcoins to Bob and decides to pay a transaction fee, how does the network ensure that the recipient node is neither Alices nor Bob's node ?
615 2010-12-30 06:38:47 <ThomasV> is the fee shared among many nodes ?
616 2010-12-30 06:39:05 <edcba> fee is for block generator
617 2010-12-30 06:39:06 <Kiba> today, everyone and their dog in the web world tweeted an interview about bitcoin
618 2010-12-30 06:39:16 <Kiba> with unnoticable traffic level
619 2010-12-30 06:39:28 <Kiba> at the bitcoin forum..
620 2010-12-30 06:39:33 <Kiba> therefore,
621 2010-12-30 06:39:41 <BoBeR> links?
622 2010-12-30 06:39:49 <Kiba> just because everyone tweet aobut you doesn't mean
623 2010-12-30 06:39:52 <ThomasV> edcba: the generator of which block ?
624 2010-12-30 06:39:56 <BoBeR> ;;bc,blocks
625 2010-12-30 06:39:56 <gribble> 100126
626 2010-12-30 06:40:03 <BoBeR> ;;bc,stats
627 2010-12-30 06:40:05 <gribble> Current Blocks: 100126 | Current Difficulty: 14484.16236123 | Next Difficulty At Block: 100799 | Next Difficulty In: 673 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 4 hours, 57 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 15836.48322474
628 2010-12-30 06:40:05 <sloob> I look at a tweet about once a month
629 2010-12-30 06:40:08 <Kiba> http://www.readwriteweb.com/hack/2010/12/interview-bitcoin.php
630 2010-12-30 06:40:18 <Kiba> sloob: I only listen to 16 people..
631 2010-12-30 06:40:24 <edcba> the one acknowledging the transactio
632 2010-12-30 06:40:32 <Kiba> and got twice as many followerers
633 2010-12-30 06:41:09 <BitcoinNewb> How do I get credit on my transactions when the program doesnt need my account info?
634 2010-12-30 06:41:16 <BitcoinNewb> thanks for all the help btw
635 2010-12-30 06:41:59 <ThomasV> edcba: and how is the block acknowledging the transaction chosen ?
636 2010-12-30 06:42:44 <edcba> maths
637 2010-12-30 06:43:20 <edcba> solving a problem with varying difficulty
638 2010-12-30 06:43:52 <ThomasV> so, if I generate a block, I will not only get 50btc, but I will also get paid for thransactions until the end of the world, no matter if I run a node or not ?
639 2010-12-30 06:44:02 <BitcoinNewb> So to add credit to my balance I need to generate?
640 2010-12-30 06:44:14 <Kiba> add what credit?
641 2010-12-30 06:44:18 <Kiba> bitcoin is not credit
642 2010-12-30 06:44:23 <BitcoinNewb> yes sorry
643 2010-12-30 06:44:24 <Kiba> it's a commodity
644 2010-12-30 06:44:44 <BitcoinNewb> So to add this commodity I need to generate
645 2010-12-30 06:44:53 <Kiba> I propose we rename wallet.dat to key.dat
646 2010-12-30 06:44:55 <edcba> ThomasV: you earn the fees only once for a block
647 2010-12-30 06:45:16 <Kiba> everybody have a hyperspace vault
648 2010-12-30 06:45:25 <Kiba> their wallet.dat simply access these hyperspace wallet
649 2010-12-30 06:45:40 <BitcoinNewb> How big is this download?
650 2010-12-30 06:45:48 <Kiba> s/wallet/vault
651 2010-12-30 06:46:00 <ThomasV> edcba: that's not what you said above, or I did not understand
652 2010-12-30 06:46:15 <sloob> it's in the cloud!
653 2010-12-30 06:46:18 <sloob> the land of wind and ghosts
654 2010-12-30 06:46:28 <BitcoinNewb> lol
655 2010-12-30 06:46:36 <BitcoinNewb> Thats a good fall back
656 2010-12-30 06:47:40 <BitcoinNewb> Im still missing how this program will get bitcoins into the account I just made on Mt Gox
657 2010-12-30 06:48:26 <Kiba> you must send bitcoin to an address belonging to Mt Gox
658 2010-12-30 06:48:38 <BitcoinNewb> Ok
659 2010-12-30 06:48:43 <BitcoinNewb> Thats was I was wondering
660 2010-12-30 06:48:54 <ThomasV> BitcoinNewb: try the bitcoin faucet first
661 2010-12-30 06:49:03 <edcba> ThomasV: transaction fee is paid to generator of the first block including that transaction
662 2010-12-30 06:49:04 <ThomasV> it'll give you an idea
663 2010-12-30 06:49:39 <BitcoinNewb> OH! Neet
664 2010-12-30 06:49:44 <BitcoinNewb> free bitcoins!
665 2010-12-30 06:49:49 <ThomasV> edcba: so, not the one who created the bloc in the first place ?
666 2010-12-30 06:50:39 <BitcoinNewb> This is right up my alley
667 2010-12-30 06:51:05 <BitcoinNewb> I hate our current reserve banking system
668 2010-12-30 06:51:08 <edcba> i think you are still confused on how it works :)
669 2010-12-30 06:51:29 <ThomasV> tha's why I ask :-)
670 2010-12-30 06:51:41 <BitcoinNewb> ok
671 2010-12-30 06:51:54 <sloob> there's no reason that bitcoin transactions wouldn't still be taxable, it's just under the radar
672 2010-12-30 06:52:06 <edcba> block have transactions that may have fees
673 2010-12-30 06:52:07 <sloob> but at least it can't get yanked around
674 2010-12-30 06:52:08 <BitcoinNewb> I got a couple of bitcoins on the way, and im generating
675 2010-12-30 06:52:16 <BitcoinNewb> sweet
676 2010-12-30 06:52:41 <edcba> blocks put in stone transactions
677 2010-12-30 06:52:55 <ThomasV> yeah I got that
678 2010-12-30 06:53:10 <BitcoinNewb> Do you guys know a good program to monitor the bandwith being taken up by bitcoin
679 2010-12-30 06:53:14 <edcba> you need not to gen a block to gen a transaction
680 2010-12-30 06:53:19 <BitcoinNewb> I have other people in the house you see
681 2010-12-30 06:53:28 <sloob> will the number of blocks in an initial download become unmanageable as the number of transactions increase?
682 2010-12-30 06:53:43 <Kiba> sloob: bandwidth will increase
683 2010-12-30 06:53:48 <Kiba> storage will increase
684 2010-12-30 06:53:49 <Kiba> the question
685 2010-12-30 06:53:51 <Kiba> is
686 2010-12-30 06:54:04 <Kiba> will the block chain outpace storage and bandwidth improvement?
687 2010-12-30 06:54:11 <edcba> you need a transaction to be included in a block for receivers to get the money
688 2010-12-30 06:54:41 <ThomasV> edcba: I got that too...
689 2010-12-30 06:55:54 <ThomasV> so the fee will go to the first node that includes the transaction in the clock ?
690 2010-12-30 06:56:23 <BitcoinNewb> looks like its taking around .50 kb a sec
691 2010-12-30 06:56:41 <BitcoinNewb> I mean MB
692 2010-12-30 06:56:44 <edcba> in the block chain yes
693 2010-12-30 06:56:57 <ThomasV> edcba: then my question remains intact :  if Alice gives bitcoins to Bob and decides to pay a transaction fee, how does the network ensure that the recipient node is neither Alices nor Bob's node ?
694 2010-12-30 06:57:25 <nanotube> ThomasV: the recipient is indeed bob's node... since alice gave bitcoins to bob
695 2010-12-30 06:57:44 <nanotube> tx fee doesn't have a preset recipient. person who generates the block containing the tx gets the fee.
696 2010-12-30 06:57:58 <ThomasV> so in that case it is not protecting at all against ddos
697 2010-12-30 06:58:16 <nanotube> and ddos has absolutely no relationship to transactions and fees.
698 2010-12-30 06:58:40 <ThomasV> indeed, that's what I wanted to know
699 2010-12-30 06:58:43 <ThomasV> thanks
700 2010-12-30 06:59:05 <nanotube> read ,,(bc,wiki blocks) and ,,(bc,wiki block chain) and ,,(bc,wiki transaction fees)
701 2010-12-30 06:59:06 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Blocks | Dec 19, 2010 ... Data is permanently recorded in the Bitcoin network through blocks. Each block contains all recent transactions, a nonce (random number), ...
702 2010-12-30 06:59:07 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_chain | Dec 20, 2010 ... Every block contains a hash of the previous block. This has the effect of creating a chain of blocks from the genesis block to the current ...
703 2010-12-30 06:59:08 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees | Dec 19, 2010 ... Transaction fees may be included with any transfer of bitcoins from one address to another. At the moment, many transactions are typically ...
704 2010-12-30 07:00:22 <ThomasV> but this is a flaw imo
705 2010-12-30 07:01:00 <BitcoinNewb> For newbs like me this is a great read
706 2010-12-30 07:01:01 <BitcoinNewb> http://www.bitcoin.org/faq#What_is_a_block
707 2010-12-30 07:01:48 <ThomasV> we should try to ddos bitcoin before someone else does
708 2010-12-30 07:03:35 <Kiba> go do it
709 2010-12-30 07:03:40 <Kiba> and write a security report on it
710 2010-12-30 07:04:16 <ThomasV> if a ddos attack succeeds when btc has become more mainstream, it will be very bad for the btc economy
711 2010-12-30 07:04:55 <edcba> it's still in beta...
712 2010-12-30 07:05:03 <davout> o hai
713 2010-12-30 07:05:07 <sloob> what kind of ddos are you talking about
714 2010-12-30 07:05:13 <sloob> like transaction spamming?
715 2010-12-30 07:05:18 <ThomasV> yes but it's getting more and more attention
716 2010-12-30 07:05:28 <BitcoinNewb> Cool im setting up a cobian backup for my btc wallet!
717 2010-12-30 07:05:34 <edcba> the pb is the btc p2p protocol anyway
718 2010-12-30 07:05:44 <BitcoinNewb> this is way fun! Im so glad I saw this on Kieser Report!
719 2010-12-30 07:06:17 <BitcoinNewb> So instead of a bank I keep my money on my computer in a database file!
720 2010-12-30 07:06:23 <BitcoinNewb> this is the greatest thing ever
721 2010-12-30 07:06:30 <ThomasV> sloob: I was believing that the network could be protected from fake transactions, by imposing transaction fees
722 2010-12-30 07:06:41 <ThomasV> but apparently that's not the case
723 2010-12-30 07:07:15 <sloob> I am not totally convinced that there's no way to clog up the tubes with frivolous transactions
724 2010-12-30 07:07:19 <BitcoinNewb> 4chan would shit all over this if they thought it would ruin somebodys day
725 2010-12-30 07:07:20 <ThomasV> imo the transcation fee should be split and shared among many nodes
726 2010-12-30 07:07:41 <BitcoinNewb> I set mine at .01 is that right?
727 2010-12-30 07:07:50 <edcba> tx fees do noothing againnst ddos
728 2010-12-30 07:08:02 <sloob> I can't quantify what my concern is, so I'm sort of spreading FUD. but I'm thinking about it a lot.
729 2010-12-30 07:08:23 <ArtForz> protection against ddos is quite simple
730 2010-12-30 07:08:44 <ThomasV> ArtForz: yes ?
731 2010-12-30 07:08:47 <ArtForz> yes
732 2010-12-30 07:09:49 <BitcoinNewb> because its decentrailised?
733 2010-12-30 07:09:51 <edcba> the only pb is to code it and make nodes run that
734 2010-12-30 07:10:17 <ArtForz> especially as satoshi thinks every node caching every transaction is a good idea
735 2010-12-30 07:10:48 <edcba> indeed
736 2010-12-30 07:10:52 <ThomasV> ArtForz: can you be a bit more prolix ?
737 2010-12-30 07:11:19 <ArtForz> I should just waste 0.01 btc in 0.00000001 chunks and prove him wrong
738 2010-12-30 07:11:48 <ArtForz> just because it's small and doesnt include a fee doesnt mean its not a valid transaction, just means it'll pretty much never get into a block
739 2010-12-30 07:12:19 <ArtForz> current nodes will happily cache millions of these until they're restarted
740 2010-12-30 07:12:36 <edcba> also in order to waste less cpu we could make pb difficulty function of public node addr
741 2010-12-30 07:12:54 <ArtForz> huh?
742 2010-12-30 07:13:29 <edcba> not sure about that one because of pregen...
743 2010-12-30 07:14:30 <edcba> ArtForz: solution relative to distance from some public key hash
744 2010-12-30 07:14:59 <ArtForz> solution to what who? where?
745 2010-12-30 07:15:33 <edcba> block gen
746 2010-12-30 07:15:43 <ArtForz> how the fuck would that work
747 2010-12-30 07:17:47 <edcba> instead of h(block) inf to difficulty
748 2010-12-30 07:18:06 <ArtForz> inf to difficulty?
749 2010-12-30 07:18:15 <edcba> inferior to
750 2010-12-30 07:18:56 <edcba> h(block) - h(pubkey) inf to difficulty
751 2010-12-30 07:19:14 <ArtForz> that sounds like a VERY bad idea
752 2010-12-30 07:19:28 <edcba> haha
753 2010-12-30 07:20:04 <ArtForz> so I guess you want to make pubkeys one-time only
754 2010-12-30 07:20:19 <edcba> no of course
755 2010-12-30 07:20:43 <edcba> but yes it needs some tweakinngg
756 2010-12-30 07:21:47 <edcba> a better idea also is make hashcash instead of fees
757 2010-12-30 07:22:19 <ArtForz> otherwise I just need to build a DB of 2**48 pubkeys or so and have a major advantage
758 2010-12-30 07:23:17 <edcba> yes i see the pb but maybe there is a way to avoid that
759 2010-12-30 07:23:32 <edcba> dunno how yet
760 2010-12-30 07:24:15 <ArtForz> actually in the current system it wouldnt change anything
761 2010-12-30 07:24:30 <ArtForz> pubkey is included in block hash via merkle tree
762 2010-12-30 07:24:49 <ArtForz> so doing h(hdr) - h(pubk) is just a bunch of 32-bit substrations more
763 2010-12-30 07:25:04 <ArtForz> = whats the point?
764 2010-12-30 07:25:27 <edcba> it's general idea
765 2010-12-30 07:25:34 <ArtForz> sha256 already does something like 1500 32-bit adds per bitcoinhash, another 8 32+carry subs wont change anything
766 2010-12-30 07:26:51 <ArtForz> and if you dont include pubkey in hash, see "build DB of fuckton of pubkeys indexed by top hash bytes"
767 2010-12-30 07:27:30 <edcba> you just need to make a distance to make some clients advantaged to some others for a fixed block
768 2010-12-30 07:27:40 <ArtForz> why?
769 2010-12-30 07:27:55 <ArtForz> = you're now limited by amount of storage / access latency
770 2010-12-30 07:28:33 <ArtForz> so instead of clusters of GPUs people will build clusters of SSDs
771 2010-12-30 07:28:47 <edcba> i just tweak difficulty
772 2010-12-30 07:29:07 <ArtForz> no you dont
773 2010-12-30 07:29:41 <ArtForz> for random h, h < target is exactly as likely as (h - pubkey) < target
774 2010-12-30 07:31:23 <edcba> - is more like bitwise distance applied to a mask
775 2010-12-30 07:32:06 <BitcoinNewb> Hey guys!
776 2010-12-30 07:32:31 <ArtForz> errrr... so now count_1_bits(h ^ hash(pubkey)) < target ?
777 2010-12-30 07:32:34 <BitcoinNewb> I just received my first bitcoin transaction from bitcoin faucet
778 2010-12-30 07:32:42 <edcba> pb of key db remains
779 2010-12-30 07:32:48 <sloob> congrats
780 2010-12-30 07:32:54 <BitcoinNewb> lol
781 2010-12-30 07:33:00 <ArtForz> yep
782 2010-12-30 07:33:01 <AntonB_> Hi all. Where can I read about converting bitcoin to/from USD ? Any ready made web-services ?
783 2010-12-30 07:33:29 <ArtForz> you effectively turned a CPU-bound problem into a time/space tradeoff problem
784 2010-12-30 07:34:22 <edcba> i see some solutions but that would just do what i wanted to prevent
785 2010-12-30 07:35:00 <BitcoinNewb> gotta say this is some really cool shit right here
786 2010-12-30 07:35:12 <BitcoinNewb> is this the first p2p currency?
787 2010-12-30 07:35:35 <sloob> gold is p2p
788 2010-12-30 07:35:41 <BitcoinNewb> lol
789 2010-12-30 07:35:44 <BitcoinNewb> oh yea
790 2010-12-30 07:35:48 <ArtForz> I doubt it's possible to find any one-way problem that doesnt benefit from some kind of special hardware
791 2010-12-30 07:36:27 <BitcoinNewb> it downloaded well over 300 MB
792 2010-12-30 07:36:28 <BitcoinNewb> wow
793 2010-12-30 07:36:50 <BitcoinNewb> my khash is around 950 is that good?
794 2010-12-30 07:37:12 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calc 950
795 2010-12-30 07:37:12 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 950 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 2 years, 3 weeks, 6 days, 21 hours, 46 minutes, and 1 second
796 2010-12-30 07:37:39 <BitcoinNewb> you used that tool didnt you? I will use that next time
797 2010-12-30 07:37:43 <BitcoinNewb> thats really shitty
798 2010-12-30 07:37:48 <BitcoinNewb> I need a better computer
799 2010-12-30 07:37:53 <ArtForz> might want to check out ,bc,,pool
800 2010-12-30 07:37:53 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
801 2010-12-30 07:38:28 <BitcoinNewb> man you guys think of everything!
802 2010-12-30 07:38:31 <BitcoinNewb> Sweet!
803 2010-12-30 07:38:43 <BitcoinNewb> pool users and share the benifits!
804 2010-12-30 07:38:55 <ArtForz> pooled mining still provides the same average payout as normal mining, just less... chunky
805 2010-12-30 07:40:37 <ArtForz> instead of randomly 50 btc every 2 years average, pooled mining gives more like 0.06 or so btc/day
806 2010-12-30 07:42:04 <BitcoinNewb> what miner do you suggest
807 2010-12-30 07:42:18 <ArtForz> dunno, I gave up on CPU mining long ago
808 2010-12-30 07:42:21 <sloob> thanks for that. i've got a celeron crapbox that coud be mining coins
809 2010-12-30 07:42:46 <ArtForz> running 24 HD5970 + 5 HD5770 GPUs
810 2010-12-30 07:43:00 <sloob> but i didn't want to wait 12 years for a payout
811 2010-12-30 07:43:13 <BitcoinNewb> mybitcoin is the same thing just on a cloud
812 2010-12-30 07:43:20 <ArtForz> = about 16Gh/s
813 2010-12-30 07:45:11 <edcba> now i wonder if it's more beneficial to consume lot of hdd or lot of cpu...
814 2010-12-30 07:45:22 <BoBeR> lots of CPU
815 2010-12-30 07:45:31 <BoBeR> more heat
816 2010-12-30 07:45:33 <BoBeR> you can heat your home
817 2010-12-30 07:46:04 <ArtForz> and yes, that's 16000000 khash/s
818 2010-12-30 07:47:18 <BoBeR> um
819 2010-12-30 07:47:27 <BoBeR> 16 000 000 000 hash
820 2010-12-30 07:47:32 <BoBeR> looks bigger like that
821 2010-12-30 07:47:37 <ArtForz> or about the equivalent of 10000 low-end CPUs or 1000 high end 6-core monsters
822 2010-12-30 07:48:00 <BoBeR> dont ever go offline
823 2010-12-30 07:48:09 <BoBeR> bitcoin will slow to a crawl
824 2010-12-30 07:48:12 <BoBeR> can i ask
825 2010-12-30 07:48:18 <BoBeR> how many bitcoins do you have