1 2011-01-02 00:00:02 <marioxcc> haha, no
  2 2011-01-02 00:00:04 <sipa> no
  3 2011-01-02 00:00:11 <marioxcc> encryption is encryption
  4 2011-01-02 00:00:13 <marioxcc> no size change
  5 2011-01-02 00:00:17 <marioxcc> well, format overhead
  6 2011-01-02 00:00:19 <marioxcc> and so
  7 2011-01-02 00:00:37 <sipa> gpg supports compression before it encrypts, i think
  8 2011-01-02 00:00:38 <marioxcc> padding also, depending on the mode used
  9 2011-01-02 00:00:45 <lfm> in general encryption adds to size if only by a few bytes. some encryption systems have built in compression tho
 10 2011-01-02 00:00:56 <marioxcc> sipa: it does, but it isn't that encryption reduces size, is just GPG happens to compress too
 11 2011-01-02 00:01:09 <sipa> marioxcc: that's exactly what i say :)
 12 2011-01-02 00:01:20 <sipa> s/say/mean/
 13 2011-01-02 00:01:25 <marioxcc> ok
 14 2011-01-02 00:02:25 <marioxcc> why isn't minerd in cpuminer a daeom?
 15 2011-01-02 00:02:34 <marioxcc> the d sounds silly if it don't daemonize
 16 2011-01-02 00:03:36 <nanotube> marioxcc: suggest that on the cpuminer forum thread or github issues
 17 2011-01-02 00:03:55 <marioxcc> uh
 18 2011-01-02 00:04:29 <EvanR> nanotube: i have a cloak, how do i rate people
 19 2011-01-02 00:04:36 <nanotube> yea, forget about the forum thread, i know you don't do forums. :) but github issues
 20 2011-01-02 00:04:41 <nanotube> EvanR: use the rate command.
 21 2011-01-02 00:04:47 <EvanR> rate nanotube
 22 2011-01-02 00:04:48 <marioxcc> nanotube: :)
 23 2011-01-02 00:04:58 <EvanR> ;;rate
 24 2011-01-02 00:04:58 <gribble> (rate <nick> <rating> [<notes>]) -- Enters a rating for <nick> in the amount of <rating>. Use optional <notes> field to enter any notes you have about this user. Things like transaction details, or total transactions you've had with this user are good candidates for notes. Your previously existing rating, if any, will be overwritten.
 25 2011-01-02 00:05:20 <nanotube> EvanR: take it to -otc :)
 26 2011-01-02 00:05:25 <EvanR> oh, wrong channel
 27 2011-01-02 00:18:31 <tfoote> If anyone's interested in testing a port of the bitcoin build system. I've pushed a branch onto github which uses CMake.  I hope it'll make cross platform builds a little easier to maintain.  https://github.com/tfoote/bitcoin/tree/cmake_devel
 28 2011-01-02 00:18:49 <Diablo-D3> dont use cmake.
 29 2011-01-02 00:18:53 <Diablo-D3> bad tfoote
 30 2011-01-02 00:19:28 <afed> when slush takes his server down, my gpus fall silent
 31 2011-01-02 00:20:54 <sipa> same :)
 32 2011-01-02 00:22:46 <lfm> ya pools are wonderful arnt they
 33 2011-01-02 00:24:22 <nanotube> multiple pools ftw.
 34 2011-01-02 00:35:59 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: http://pastebin.com/xSPfKF7U
 35 2011-01-02 00:36:53 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: you're on the pool?
 36 2011-01-02 00:37:03 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: yes, the bitcoin.cz pool
 37 2011-01-02 00:37:09 <Diablo-D3> restart the client when it does that
 38 2011-01-02 00:37:30 <devon_hillard> why does it do it?
 39 2011-01-02 00:38:13 <Diablo-D3> because he restarted the pool daemon
 40 2011-01-02 00:44:38 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3, I mean, the NullPointerException
 41 2011-01-02 00:45:04 <Diablo-D3> it failed in getwork, and then getwork pushed null into the getwork variable
 42 2011-01-02 00:45:21 <Diablo-D3> it ONLY happens if you restart the client the miner connects to
 43 2011-01-02 00:45:23 <Diablo-D3> and only very rarely
 44 2011-01-02 00:45:49 <devon_hillard> I should modify the source to catch this particular exception
 45 2011-01-02 00:45:57 <Diablo-D3> you cant
 46 2011-01-02 00:46:02 <devon_hillard> or modify the startup script to restart in case of an exception
 47 2011-01-02 00:46:06 <Diablo-D3> not with your proposed solution
 48 2011-01-02 00:46:19 <Diablo-D3> the exception happens because the variable is set to null
 49 2011-01-02 00:46:28 <Diablo-D3> I should check if the variable WOULD be set to null and then fail to set it
 50 2011-01-02 00:55:47 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: in the main function, I'm putting a try/catch block: try { ...} catch (NullPointerException e) { Thread.sleep (10000); DiabloMiner diabloMiner = new DiabloMiner(); diabloMiner.execute(args); }
 51 2011-01-02 00:55:52 <devon_hillard> as a quick workaround
 52 2011-01-02 00:55:58 <Diablo-D3> dont.
 53 2011-01-02 00:56:06 <Diablo-D3> thats a very ugly fix
 54 2011-01-02 00:56:12 <Diablo-D3> and I already said exactly how it should be fixed.
 55 2011-01-02 00:57:06 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: here? CL10.clEnqueueWriteBuffer(queue, output, CL10.CL_FALSE, 0, buffer, null, null);
 56 2011-01-02 00:58:41 <Diablo-D3> nope.
 57 2011-01-02 00:59:20 <devon_hillard> hm... the stack trace must be off then (using the binary distribution)
 58 2011-01-02 00:59:41 <Diablo-D3> no, its probably failing there
 59 2011-01-02 00:59:45 <Diablo-D3> but your fix is wrong
 60 2011-01-02 01:02:28 <devon_hillard> restarting the server does not seem to induce the error every time
 61 2011-01-02 01:03:03 <Diablo-D3> nope, it doesnt
 62 2011-01-02 01:03:09 <Diablo-D3> it only when it gets stuck during sending the response
 63 2011-01-02 01:03:42 <devon_hillard> ah, and since the pool sends easier tasks, responses are more frequent
 64 2011-01-02 01:03:53 <Diablo-D3> yeha
 65 2011-01-02 01:04:07 <Diablo-D3> if it fails when its not in motion, ie, it never connects, it triggers correctly
 66 2011-01-02 01:04:15 <devon_hillard> I can replicate the exception with bitcoind, but the miner keeps on cracking after the server restart
 67 2011-01-02 01:04:32 <devon_hillard> the pool just restarted and the miner stopped cracking
 68 2011-01-02 01:04:47 <Diablo-D3> it only does it every once in awhile
 69 2011-01-02 01:08:39 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * re3c3bfb / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java :
 70 2011-01-02 01:10:37 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: A wise man once said, '??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? B A
 71 2011-01-02 01:10:46 <devon_hillard> Mortal Kombat fatality? :)
 72 2011-01-02 01:10:50 <Diablo-D3> konami code
 73 2011-01-02 01:11:41 <Animeking> and then extract the contents of the archive to this new folder. The executable which will be used is poclbm.exe, but this must be launched via command line and given several launch parameters. This can be tedious to do on windows, so we will expedite this with a batch script. (and your final path to poclbm.exe should be C:itcoinpoclbm_py2exe_20101214poclbm.exe)" - m0m, so what exactly  does
 74 2011-01-02 01:11:42 <Animeking> this mean
 75 2011-01-02 01:12:44 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: that should handle it
 76 2011-01-02 01:13:01 <Animeking> oh
 77 2011-01-02 01:13:05 <Animeking> didn't read the next step
 78 2011-01-02 01:13:06 <Animeking> forget it
 79 2011-01-02 01:21:46 <genjix> hey
 80 2011-01-02 01:22:05 <genjix> if someone gives me a txid, how can I check it?
 81 2011-01-02 01:22:20 <genjix> b2ce4919d281aae2d1c5433296cfdce69ce5d1926dc93c23c0fb7bd4ef09f17b
 82 2011-01-02 01:24:58 <MT`AwAy> genjix: either modify your client, or wait for it to appear on bbe
 83 2011-01-02 01:25:11 <genjix> what is bbe?
 84 2011-01-02 01:25:18 <Animeking> http://pastebin.com/D7kJQq5n  Why is it that pyopencl miner givesm e this error everytime I try to open it -.-
 85 2011-01-02 01:25:19 <genjix> blockexplorer.com?
 86 2011-01-02 01:25:20 <MT`AwAy> http://blockexplorer.com/
 87 2011-01-02 01:25:23 <Animeking> With or without the batch file.
 88 2011-01-02 01:25:27 <genjix> ok thanks
 89 2011-01-02 01:25:30 <MT`AwAy> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BBE
 90 2011-01-02 01:26:07 <genjix> MT`AwAy: btw can you make the font for sourcecode larger on the wiki?
 91 2011-01-02 01:26:14 <genjix> the same size as on wikipedia.
 92 2011-01-02 01:26:18 <genjix> it is far too small
 93 2011-01-02 01:26:22 <genjix> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_(JSON-RPC)
 94 2011-01-02 01:28:08 <MT`AwAy> genjix: this has already been proposed, got any idea how big you want it?
 95 2011-01-02 01:28:31 <genjix> as big as the indentation from
 96 2011-01-02 01:28:35 <genjix> blocks
 97 2011-01-02 01:28:51 <MT`AwAy> right now it seems to be "1em"
 98 2011-01-02 01:29:08 <genjix> how big is the font in the blocks where you indent by 2 spaces?
 99 2011-01-02 01:29:48 <genjix> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_(JSON-RPC)#Controlling_Bitcoin
100 2011-01-02 01:29:54 <genjix> like these ones.
101 2011-01-02 01:30:13 <Animeking> and why is poclbm 0 KB o.O
102 2011-01-02 01:31:22 <MT`AwAy> mh
103 2011-01-02 01:31:26 <MT`AwAy> it got overwritten :(
104 2011-01-02 01:32:28 <Animeking> -.-
105 2011-01-02 01:32:41 <genjix> http://awesome.naquadah.org/ <- they accept bitcoins now and will add their bitcoin address soon to the front page :)
106 2011-01-02 01:34:15 <MT`AwAy> gah
107 2011-01-02 01:35:12 <MT`AwAy> how do I give priority to a definition in css?
108 2011-01-02 01:35:44 <genjix> i think newer definitions always take priority in css :o
109 2011-01-02 01:36:00 <MT`AwAy> ok
110 2011-01-02 01:36:02 <MT`AwAy> genjix: fixed
111 2011-01-02 01:36:09 <MT`AwAy> [11:35:44] <genjix> i think newer definitions always take priority in css :o <- or important ones
112 2011-01-02 01:36:17 <MT`AwAy> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MediaWiki:Geshi.css <- I used keyword !important
113 2011-01-02 01:36:21 <MT`AwAy> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/cascade.html#important-rules <- doc
114 2011-01-02 01:36:25 <genjix> MT`AwAy: looks great
115 2011-01-02 01:36:50 <genjix> oh wow- learn new things everyday :)
116 2011-01-02 01:37:13 <MT`AwAy> it's part of CSS2
117 2011-01-02 01:38:37 <marioxcc> what will happen when the first halving is here?
118 2011-01-02 01:38:47 <marioxcc> the time between miners isn't synced
119 2011-01-02 01:38:55 <marioxcc> some will still mine 50BTC blocks
120 2011-01-02 01:38:58 <marioxcc> what will happen to them?
121 2011-01-02 01:39:09 <marioxcc> or do that goes by block count?
122 2011-01-02 01:39:32 <MT`AwAy> first halving?
123 2011-01-02 01:39:48 <marioxcc> when block values halve
124 2011-01-02 01:39:49 <MacRohard> hmm i guess it depends which concept of time the majority of the network adheres too
125 2011-01-02 01:39:53 <marioxcc> from 50 to 25
126 2011-01-02 01:40:19 <noot> i guess block count
127 2011-01-02 01:40:33 <noot> otherwise it will not be exactly 21000000
128 2011-01-02 01:40:45 <marioxcc> well, it isn't exactly 21000000
129 2011-01-02 01:40:45 <noot> in total
130 2011-01-02 01:40:53 <marioxcc> it's a bit less
131 2011-01-02 01:40:59 <noot> why is that?
132 2011-01-02 01:41:06 <marioxcc> because of lack of presicion
133 2011-01-02 01:41:27 <marioxcc> it converges to 21000000 at infinity
134 2011-01-02 01:41:32 <marioxcc> but there won't be infinite halves
135 2011-01-02 01:41:35 <noot> precision of what?
136 2011-01-02 01:41:40 <marioxcc> bitcoin division
137 2011-01-02 01:41:51 <marioxcc> it will go from 0.00000001 to 0
138 2011-01-02 01:42:04 <genjix> ^ slight brag there
139 2011-01-02 01:42:04 <noot> i don't think this will be a problem
140 2011-01-02 01:42:13 <noot> in the end you just have a transaction
141 2011-01-02 01:42:35 <genjix> guess im not that special then
142 2011-01-02 01:42:37 <marioxcc> noot: i don't say it is a problem
143 2011-01-02 01:42:40 <noot> and the exact amounts are added or subtracted from your acount
144 2011-01-02 01:42:44 <noot> *account
145 2011-01-02 01:42:52 <marioxcc> genjix: several people is involved with the GNU projects and its members
146 2011-01-02 01:42:55 <marioxcc> that's the GNU project nature
147 2011-01-02 01:43:13 <marioxcc> my email is @gnu.org for instance
148 2011-01-02 01:43:25 <marioxcc> because i'm a volunteer in GNU Savannah
149 2011-01-02 01:45:28 <genjix> i wanted to hand copyright of my program over to fsf
150 2011-01-02 01:45:34 <genjix> but the restrictions are too much
151 2011-01-02 01:45:43 <marioxcc> huh, restrictions?
152 2011-01-02 01:46:09 <marioxcc> noot: here you have: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#How_long_will_it_take_to_generate_all_the_coins?
153 2011-01-02 01:46:10 <marioxcc> :)
154 2011-01-02 01:46:27 <genjix> (texinfo documentation, code style, fitting operability tests, ...)
155 2011-01-02 01:46:50 <marioxcc> genjix: oh, the gnu coding standards
156 2011-01-02 01:47:07 <marioxcc> thats in order to maintain coherence and a certain minimum quality among gnu software
157 2011-01-02 01:47:20 <luke-jr> genjix: Im sure they would take a donation of copyright, without making it a GNU project
158 2011-01-02 01:47:29 <genjix> luke-jr: they won't.
159 2011-01-02 01:47:32 <marioxcc> genjix: here you have: http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/
160 2011-01-02 01:47:47 <marioxcc> luke-jr: the FSF hold only copyright for GNU projects
161 2011-01-02 01:48:08 <marioxcc> you could put "Copyright SUCH and SUCH and Free software foundation"
162 2011-01-02 01:48:18 <genjix> which is silly... why can't they hold copyrights for others?
163 2011-01-02 01:48:23 <marioxcc> but there is no point in doing so
164 2011-01-02 01:48:29 <marioxcc> genjix: why should they?
165 2011-01-02 01:48:42 <marioxcc> if they hold copyright for a project is to defend it
166 2011-01-02 01:48:43 <genjix> because they believe in keeping all software free
167 2011-01-02 01:48:58 <marioxcc> sure, but
168 2011-01-02 01:49:04 <genjix> well then.
169 2011-01-02 01:49:13 <marioxcc> there is another option for that
170 2011-01-02 01:49:22 <marioxcc> see http://softwarefreedom.org/
171 2011-01-02 01:49:32 <genjix> XFree86 - wouldn't have happened if licensed to GNU
172 2011-01-02 01:49:36 <kiba> we need to be free of the shakle of copyright!
173 2011-01-02 01:49:55 <marioxcc> genjix: they can put it under the GNU GPL without putting the copyright to the FSF!
174 2011-01-02 01:50:07 <genjix> marioxcc: i emailed them too... not very helpful.
175 2011-01-02 01:50:11 <kiba> copyight is a babric system created as a system of economic privillege
176 2011-01-02 01:50:12 <marioxcc> hey, don't make the GNU responsible for the choise of other people
177 2011-01-02 01:50:21 <marioxcc> kiba: i disagree
178 2011-01-02 01:50:25 <marioxcc> it's a good idea in priciple
179 2011-01-02 01:50:35 <marioxcc> but it has been manipulated
180 2011-01-02 01:50:36 <marioxcc> so much
181 2011-01-02 01:50:43 <genjix> < marioxcc> genjix: they can put it under the GNU GPL without putting the copyright to the FSF!
182 2011-01-02 01:50:44 <marioxcc> than now it's the other way around
183 2011-01-02 01:50:46 <kiba> it's not that it's manipulated, it's alway been that way
184 2011-01-02 01:50:47 <genjix> what?
185 2011-01-02 01:50:48 <genjix> what?
186 2011-01-02 01:50:49 <genjix> < marioxcc> genjix: they can put it under the GNU GPL without putting the copyright to the FSF!
187 2011-01-02 01:51:03 <kiba> copyright is a bad idea, affont to the idea of libertarian property right
188 2011-01-02 01:51:05 <luke-jr> copyright could be good, with a limit of like 5 years and requirement to publish the source
189 2011-01-02 01:51:07 <marioxcc> genjix: whatever they want
190 2011-01-02 01:51:21 <kiba> an enemy of freedom
191 2011-01-02 01:51:29 <kiba> it's a monopoly enforced by the state
192 2011-01-02 01:51:33 <genjix> marioxcc: well they didn't agree
193 2011-01-02 01:51:51 <marioxcc> genjix: they don't have to agree anything
194 2011-01-02 01:51:53 <genjix> they said they'll help defend my software if that ever arose
195 2011-01-02 01:52:00 <marioxcc> you can put whathever you want under the GNU GPL
196 2011-01-02 01:52:03 <genjix> but they're not taking copyrights on
197 2011-01-02 01:52:08 <marioxcc> and then call the FSF to help
198 2011-01-02 01:52:14 <marioxcc> or any other organization
199 2011-01-02 01:52:17 <marioxcc> if need
200 2011-01-02 01:52:20 <genjix> my software is under the GPL
201 2011-01-02 01:52:26 <genjix> however i have investors
202 2011-01-02 01:52:26 <marioxcc> fine then
203 2011-01-02 01:52:27 <marioxcc> we appreciate that
204 2011-01-02 01:52:34 <marioxcc> kiba: i undestand your concern
205 2011-01-02 01:52:46 <marioxcc> but copyright used to be for the benefit of users
206 2011-01-02 01:52:48 <genjix> i dont want them ever in the future to strongarm me into putting an alternative license on
207 2011-01-02 01:52:49 <kiba> marioxcc: it's inconsistent with property right.
208 2011-01-02 01:52:50 <marioxcc> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/misinterpreting-copyright.html
209 2011-01-02 01:53:02 <luke-jr> kiba: information isn't propert
210 2011-01-02 01:53:12 <marioxcc> luke-jr: i think that's what he mean :P
211 2011-01-02 01:53:14 <genjix> so to do that, i want to transfer the copyright to a neutral organisation
212 2011-01-02 01:53:19 <luke-jr> genjix: GPL can't be revoked
213 2011-01-02 01:53:36 <genjix> luke-jr: right, but the copyright holder can apply a new license to the project
214 2011-01-02 01:53:39 <kiba> marioxcc: If you have read the history of IP, it's a long history of a very sick game
215 2011-01-02 01:53:40 <genjix> i.e XFree86
216 2011-01-02 01:53:49 <genjix> I DONT want that to be possible EVER
217 2011-01-02 01:53:57 <marioxcc> kiba: i know, it sucks, i just mean it COULD be a good thing
218 2011-01-02 01:54:02 <genjix> not even if i want to do it myself
219 2011-01-02 01:54:09 <marioxcc> i invite you to read the above link, kiba
220 2011-01-02 01:54:15 <marioxcc> it explains in deep what i mean
221 2011-01-02 01:54:17 <kiba> marioxcc: it COULD be is based on flawed economic reasoning
222 2011-01-02 01:54:23 <marioxcc> but with a more readable english
223 2011-01-02 01:54:25 <marioxcc> hehe
224 2011-01-02 01:54:58 <marioxcc> kiba: I DO have a problem with current copyright
225 2011-01-02 01:55:05 <marioxcc> i would like it to be completely different
226 2011-01-02 01:55:13 <marioxcc> that's why I do support free software
227 2011-01-02 01:55:27 <marioxcc> because I believe in the freedoms the GNU movement advocate
228 2011-01-02 01:55:36 <genjix> ....
229 2011-01-02 01:55:36 <kiba> I am a person submerged into hacker culture, but it doesn't mean that I support copyleft software
230 2011-01-02 01:55:45 <genjix> so nobody has any suggestions?
231 2011-01-02 01:55:55 <marioxcc> genjix: so
232 2011-01-02 01:56:02 <marioxcc> what you don't want is to have the possibility
233 2011-01-02 01:56:04 <kiba> on the contary, I think some aspect of what RMS advocate is evil.
234 2011-01-02 01:56:09 <marioxcc> of get forced by your invesstors
235 2011-01-02 01:56:10 <kiba> we should be free to distribute closed source software
236 2011-01-02 01:56:14 <marioxcc> to release it under another license
237 2011-01-02 01:56:15 <marioxcc> true?
238 2011-01-02 01:56:18 <genjix> right.
239 2011-01-02 01:56:33 <genjix> e.g free license and premium special features proprietary
240 2011-01-02 01:56:37 <marioxcc> genjix: i undestand your concern, i would just say clearly "NO"
241 2011-01-02 01:56:44 <marioxcc> but if you can't
242 2011-01-02 01:56:45 <genjix> goodbye money.
243 2011-01-02 01:56:47 <genjix> lol
244 2011-01-02 01:56:56 <marioxcc> I suggest you ask the fsf what to do
245 2011-01-02 01:57:01 <kiba> the user have the right to do anything with the sfotware they brought
246 2011-01-02 01:57:02 <genjix> i did.
247 2011-01-02 01:57:02 <marioxcc> not whether they accept your copyright
248 2011-01-02 01:57:08 <luke-jr> genjix: this sounds easy.
249 2011-01-02 01:57:09 <kiba> but so do programmers who sell the software to the user
250 2011-01-02 01:57:10 <marioxcc> genjix: what did they said?
251 2011-01-02 01:57:12 <luke-jr> genjix: give yourself copyright.
252 2011-01-02 01:57:13 <genjix> they said "we'll think about it when it happens."
253 2011-01-02 01:57:32 <genjix> FSF said "we only take copyright from GNU projects"
254 2011-01-02 01:57:32 <marioxcc> kiba: to release proprietary software is a power
255 2011-01-02 01:57:36 <marioxcc> over other people
256 2011-01-02 01:57:45 <luke-jr> genjix: your investors can only force your corporation to do things, not you as an individual.
257 2011-01-02 01:58:08 <kiba> marioxcc: RMS's brand of free software is inconsistent with property right principle
258 2011-01-02 01:58:13 <genjix> luke-jr: that assumes im a person with no obligations and complete freedom. which si false.
259 2011-01-02 01:58:14 <marioxcc> luke-jr: sure, but a big "NO" isn't good for business
260 2011-01-02 01:58:17 <luke-jr> kiba: information isn't property
261 2011-01-02 01:58:28 <marioxcc> kiba: property right?
262 2011-01-02 01:58:42 <kiba> marioxcc: read up on Libertarian ethical theory
263 2011-01-02 01:58:44 <marioxcc> property don't applies to information as does for phisical things
264 2011-01-02 01:58:52 <luke-jr> kiba: Libertarian is wrong
265 2011-01-02 01:58:54 <marioxcc> kiba: link?
266 2011-01-02 01:58:58 <genjix> "im putting a tax on anger".
267 2011-01-02 01:59:03 <kiba> sure it does, the information in my head is property
268 2011-01-02 01:59:10 <luke-jr> Libertarian is idolatry of liberty
269 2011-01-02 01:59:17 <marioxcc> kiba: why is it?
270 2011-01-02 01:59:21 <kiba> and you're that guy from #anime?
271 2011-01-02 01:59:21 <marioxcc> you can copy and use information as you want
272 2011-01-02 01:59:26 <marioxcc> it doesn't matter
273 2011-01-02 01:59:30 <marioxcc> because it doesn't consumes
274 2011-01-02 01:59:36 <kiba> I have the right to silence as much as I have the right to free speech
275 2011-01-02 01:59:39 <marioxcc> you can have as many instances as you want for virtually no const
276 2011-01-02 01:59:52 <kiba> so you're telling me that I must release the source code for my software
277 2011-01-02 01:59:56 <genjix> no
278 2011-01-02 01:59:56 <marioxcc> yes
279 2011-01-02 02:00:01 <genjix> thats not what gpl says
280 2011-01-02 02:00:02 <marioxcc> that's what i'm telling you kiba
281 2011-01-02 02:00:10 <marioxcc> well
282 2011-01-02 02:00:11 <luke-jr> genjix: yes it does
283 2011-01-02 02:00:14 <genjix> private changes stay private
284 2011-01-02 02:00:15 <kiba> no, I have the right to not release the source code for my software
285 2011-01-02 02:00:18 <marioxcc> only if you publis it in binary form
286 2011-01-02 02:00:25 <marioxcc> kiba: but why do you?
287 2011-01-02 02:00:29 <luke-jr> kiba: no
288 2011-01-02 02:00:36 <kiba> marioxcc: because I own the information on my computer
289 2011-01-02 02:00:41 <genjix> so you are wrong kiba
290 2011-01-02 02:00:47 <genjix> and stop trolling
291 2011-01-02 02:00:48 <marioxcc> kiba: you're on a circular dependency
292 2011-01-02 02:00:52 <marioxcc> please...
293 2011-01-02 02:00:54 <kiba> why is it so?
294 2011-01-02 02:00:54 <luke-jr> information doesn't have owners
295 2011-01-02 02:01:08 <marioxcc> kiba: why do you apply property to information in first placd?
296 2011-01-02 02:01:21 <marioxcc> property applies to goods because they wear and can be only used a finite number of times
297 2011-01-02 02:01:25 <marioxcc> by a finite number of people
298 2011-01-02 02:01:30 <marioxcc> information don't have this limitant
299 2011-01-02 02:01:38 <marioxcc> hence the property thing is meaningless
300 2011-01-02 02:01:52 <kiba> I still maintain the right to hold secret information
301 2011-01-02 02:02:05 <luke-jr> kiba: secret, yes
302 2011-01-02 02:02:16 <luke-jr> but not public-with-ties
303 2011-01-02 02:02:23 <kiba> therefore, I have the right to keep information secret, especially things like software
304 2011-01-02 02:02:33 <luke-jr> kiba: closed source is not secret
305 2011-01-02 02:02:41 <kiba> you can reverse engineer it or whatever
306 2011-01-02 02:02:44 <luke-jr> closed source is merely difficult to exercise fair use rights
307 2011-01-02 02:03:15 <luke-jr> closed source is the most basic form of DRM
308 2011-01-02 02:03:23 <kiba> well
309 2011-01-02 02:03:34 <kiba> the free sfotware people have a long debate with me in a thread called copyfree
310 2011-01-02 02:03:43 <kiba> it's somewhere on the forum
311 2011-01-02 02:04:00 <marioxcc> kiba: there isn't "free software people"
312 2011-01-02 02:04:07 <marioxcc> no single one represents the free software people
313 2011-01-02 02:04:08 <kiba> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1972.0
314 2011-01-02 02:04:10 <bitbot> Growing the Copyfree Movement
315 2011-01-02 02:04:21 <marioxcc> there are several free software supporters
316 2011-01-02 02:04:24 <marioxcc> with incompatible opinions
317 2011-01-02 02:05:26 <luke-jr> it's one or the other
318 2011-01-02 02:05:50 <marioxcc> kiba: you can't keep neutral
319 2011-01-02 02:05:58 <kiba> it's not that I am netural
320 2011-01-02 02:06:12 <kiba> I am an opponent against copyright. Please learn the proper distinction
321 2011-01-02 02:06:52 <marioxcc> free software don't imply copyright
322 2011-01-02 02:07:00 <marioxcc> public domain software with source is an example
323 2011-01-02 02:07:08 <kiba> The GPL is a copyright license. I oppose copyright licenses.
324 2011-01-02 02:07:17 <luke-jr> GPL != free software
325 2011-01-02 02:07:23 <luke-jr> GPL is one kind of free software license
326 2011-01-02 02:07:51 <marioxcc> yeah
327 2011-01-02 02:08:29 <kiba> also note that I don't release proprietary software
328 2011-01-02 02:08:45 <marioxcc> no one argues that
329 2011-01-02 02:09:00 <luke-jr> then you release free software?
330 2011-01-02 02:09:05 <luke-jr> or just don't release software?
331 2011-01-02 02:09:30 <kiba> I release software, more often BSD these day..but I am going to release more and more public domain
332 2011-01-02 02:09:39 <luke-jr> so free software
333 2011-01-02 02:10:06 <kiba> I don't have a problem with people continue to release closed source software. It's not my problem.
334 2011-01-02 02:10:31 <kiba> my only objective is to end the use of copyright
335 2011-01-02 02:10:39 <marioxcc> you won't
336 2011-01-02 02:10:46 <marioxcc> we won't, even if we want to do so
337 2011-01-02 02:10:50 <marioxcc> that's utopical
338 2011-01-02 02:11:00 <marioxcc> the best you can do is to use copyright to defend what you believe in
339 2011-01-02 02:11:02 <kiba> it's simply inconsistent with libertarianism.
340 2011-01-02 02:11:12 <marioxcc> that's wath copyleft is about
341 2011-01-02 02:11:29 <luke-jr> libertarianism is a false religion
342 2011-01-02 02:11:40 <kiba> copyleft doesn't sastify libertarianism ethical theory.
343 2011-01-02 02:11:59 <luke-jr> and yes, it really IS a religion
344 2011-01-02 02:12:30 <marioxcc> let's avoid the "religion" word
345 2011-01-02 02:12:36 <marioxcc> it just generates discussion and trolling :)
346 2011-01-02 02:12:54 <luke-jr> what's wrong with discussion? XD
347 2011-01-02 02:13:49 <marioxcc> luke-jr: I mean trolling
348 2011-01-02 02:13:55 <marioxcc> educated discussion is good
349 2011-01-02 02:14:09 <kiba> I was not trolling. This is a serious position held by anarchists on the bitcoin forum.
350 2011-01-02 02:14:14 <kiba> by many
351 2011-01-02 02:14:25 <luke-jr> who cares what position nutcases hold?
352 2011-01-02 02:14:57 <marioxcc> kiba: i didn't mean you, I just ask to avoid the work "religion"
353 2011-01-02 02:14:59 <kiba> most people on the forum ARE Libertarian..shouldn't you at least understand what the majority believe in?
354 2011-01-02 02:15:15 <luke-jr> kiba: democracy is even more flawed than libertarianism :
355 2011-01-02 02:15:16 <genjix> logical fallacy. appeal to authority.
356 2011-01-02 02:15:19 <marioxcc> lol
357 2011-01-02 02:15:21 <marioxcc> majority...
358 2011-01-02 02:15:26 <marioxcc> the dictatorship of the majority
359 2011-01-02 02:15:30 <kiba> genjix: No, I wasn't arguing anything
360 2011-01-02 02:15:32 <marioxcc> = democracy
361 2011-01-02 02:15:33 <marioxcc> :P
362 2011-01-02 02:15:37 <kiba> I was arguing that you should understand what the majority think
363 2011-01-02 02:15:46 <genjix> "most people on the forum ARE Libertarian" < troll harder.
364 2011-01-02 02:15:47 <kiba> it's a pragramatic position
365 2011-01-02 02:15:48 <luke-jr> & contradiction
366 2011-01-02 02:15:57 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Copyleft allows you to sue someone if you they don't distribute code the way you like... is that really what copyleft is all about?
367 2011-01-02 02:16:08 <AAA_awright> genjix: It's true though, from what I can tell
368 2011-01-02 02:16:18 <genjix> logical fallacy. appeal to authority.
369 2011-01-02 02:16:19 <marioxcc> aaa_awright: of course not
370 2011-01-02 02:16:21 <genjix> logical fallacy. appeal to authority.
371 2011-01-02 02:16:22 <genjix> logical fallacy. appeal to authority.
372 2011-01-02 02:16:27 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: Copyright allows that. Copyleft defines what you don't like as "power abuse"
373 2011-01-02 02:16:34 <kiba> we are not making appeal to authority, we're just pointing out what people believe
374 2011-01-02 02:16:38 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: usually you urge them to comply with the license
375 2011-01-02 02:16:56 <marioxcc> if they don't want to, you reminds them of the legal validity of the GNU GPL
376 2011-01-02 02:17:00 <marioxcc> a sue is the last resource
377 2011-01-02 02:17:07 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: That's how the GPL is enforced though, you are *NOT* allowed to distribute your own property unless it's done according to the terms specified by the copyright owner
378 2011-01-02 02:17:34 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: except those terms are "you must not deny others their fair use rights"
379 2011-01-02 02:17:52 <luke-jr> eg, "your right to throw a fist stops at my face"
380 2011-01-02 02:18:03 <kiba> this debate is fruitless if you guys don't agree on ethical positiion
381 2011-01-02 02:18:04 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: That's a violation of individual rights because it obligates me to do something I don't voluntarially agree to
382 2011-01-02 02:18:08 <genjix> logical fallacy. confirmation bias.
383 2011-01-02 02:18:27 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: it doesn't matter whether or not you agree not to murder me. you still aren't allowed to murder me.
384 2011-01-02 02:18:32 <genjix> this like watching 2 wet tissues flap at each other.
385 2011-01-02 02:18:39 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: No because you own yourself
386 2011-01-02 02:19:05 <genjix> logical fallacy. false analogy.
387 2011-01-02 02:19:08 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: You would have to agree to it before I'm allowed to kill you, if I even wanted to do that (I don't, clearly, but for the hypothetical)
388 2011-01-02 02:19:12 <genjix> logical fallacy. false analogy.
389 2011-01-02 02:19:29 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: you have the right to share the information, or not share it. copyleft merely prevents you from later controlling the people who you choose to share it with.
390 2011-01-02 02:19:37 <marioxcc> could you please write more slowly?
391 2011-01-02 02:19:45 <marioxcc> i can't read as you type, hehe
392 2011-01-02 02:19:54 <kiba> how is closing the source code "controlling". You're doing whatever you want with that information.
393 2011-01-02 02:20:25 <luke-jr> kiba: because the ONLY difference between source code and binary, is your ability to exercise your right to modify it
394 2011-01-02 02:20:32 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Right. I shouldn't be able to tell other people that they are not allowed to distribute my code unless they include sources. If they don't want to include sources, that's their decision. But no matter what, no one should be able to stop anyone from distributing anything.
395 2011-01-02 02:20:38 <luke-jr> binary-only is DRM
396 2011-01-02 02:20:41 <marioxcc> kiba: controlling, you know how, as a software developer
397 2011-01-02 02:20:44 <kiba> luke-jr: so the right of the user is over software
398 2011-01-02 02:20:46 <marioxcc> you control what your users do
399 2011-01-02 02:20:48 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: And?
400 2011-01-02 02:20:57 <kiba> marioxcc: the user choose if they watn to use the closed source or not.
401 2011-01-02 02:20:59 <marioxcc> the users depend solely on you to adapt the program to their needs
402 2011-01-02 02:21:00 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Most DRM only exists beacuse of the legal system
403 2011-01-02 02:21:06 <luke-jr> sigh
404 2011-01-02 02:21:10 <kiba> and if the user choose to depend on the developers, that's their choice.
405 2011-01-02 02:21:16 <genjix> logical fallacy. begging the question.
406 2011-01-02 02:21:23 <AAA_awright> genjix: Shut up
407 2011-01-02 02:21:28 <genjix> you SUCK
408 2011-01-02 02:21:31 <marioxcc> kiba: great, let's put a spinning blade on the ground in the front of a street
409 2011-01-02 02:21:37 <marioxcc> they chose whether to get to the blade or not
410 2011-01-02 02:21:39 <genjix> arguments = fail
411 2011-01-02 02:21:45 <Animeking> finally
412 2011-01-02 02:21:46 <Animeking> it works.
413 2011-01-02 02:21:55 <Animeking> the pyopencl miner finally works ;D
414 2011-01-02 02:21:56 <kiba> marioxcc: dude, it's your choice to use propreitary software or not.
415 2011-01-02 02:21:57 <AAA_awright> genjix: Logical fallacy, subjective as fact, false analogy
416 2011-01-02 02:22:09 <marioxcc> kiba: not always, but even when it is
417 2011-01-02 02:22:19 <genjix> AAA_awright: WRONG! where did i use false analogy?
418 2011-01-02 02:22:19 <marioxcc> you don't have why to be subject to the developer unjustified power
419 2011-01-02 02:22:25 <AAA_awright> arguments = fail
420 2011-01-02 02:22:30 <kiba> unjustified power
421 2011-01-02 02:22:39 <genjix> and where did i use subjective as fail too
422 2011-01-02 02:22:44 <marioxcc> kiba: why should the developer artificially limit what the user could do?
423 2011-01-02 02:22:45 <genjix> i used neither of those lol
424 2011-01-02 02:22:47 <kiba> he have the same right to do whatever he want with the information
425 2011-01-02 02:22:50 <Animeking> hmm
426 2011-01-02 02:22:52 <AAA_awright> genjix: Because I don't suck anything
427 2011-01-02 02:23:03 <marioxcc> kiba: but you're restricting his right by not releasing the coe
428 2011-01-02 02:23:05 <marioxcc> *code
429 2011-01-02 02:23:07 <kiba> marioxcc: why the frak are you patronizing such crappy ass developer?
430 2011-01-02 02:23:08 <Animeking> I don't need to 'enable' generating BC on my bitcoins client do i
431 2011-01-02 02:23:23 <marioxcc> kiba: what you said?
432 2011-01-02 02:23:25 <Cusipzzz> Animeking: nope
433 2011-01-02 02:23:27 <AAA_awright> I mean sheesh, if you're going to call logical fallacies at least make sure they are correct
434 2011-01-02 02:23:30 <genjix> AAA_awright: evidently you do from all of your fail attempts at arguing.
435 2011-01-02 02:23:54 <kiba> if you have the money, choose a free software developer. That's your power right there.
436 2011-01-02 02:24:00 <marioxcc> money?
437 2011-01-02 02:24:01 <kiba> the developer don't get to eat if they don't have money.
438 2011-01-02 02:24:06 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: No one's rights are violated if I choose to only distribute a compiled program
439 2011-01-02 02:24:07 <Cusipzzz> as a wise man once said, "can't we all just get along?"
440 2011-01-02 02:24:07 <marioxcc> you don't need money to develop or not free software
441 2011-01-02 02:24:12 <marioxcc> free software is about freedom
442 2011-01-02 02:24:17 <marioxcc> not money
443 2011-01-02 02:24:20 <genjix> this convo is a waste of time.
444 2011-01-02 02:24:23 <kiba> it's a different sort of freedom, marioxcc
445 2011-01-02 02:24:24 <marioxcc> you can make or not to make money with free software
446 2011-01-02 02:24:28 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: My rights *are* violated if you threaten legal action if I don't release the sources, however
447 2011-01-02 02:24:29 <marioxcc> kiba: why so?
448 2011-01-02 02:24:42 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Or, I can withhold the binary and no one gets anything at all
449 2011-01-02 02:24:44 <kiba> because we have different premesis. If you don't sort them, the debate doesn't go anywhere
450 2011-01-02 02:24:47 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: which rights?
451 2011-01-02 02:24:51 <Animeking> BSD vs GPL flameware, start!!! (kidding)
452 2011-01-02 02:24:52 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Individual rights
453 2011-01-02 02:24:58 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: my rights to adapt the software as I need?
454 2011-01-02 02:25:03 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Is not a right
455 2011-01-02 02:25:07 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Well
456 2011-01-02 02:25:12 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: why not?
457 2011-01-02 02:25:15 <marioxcc> it's the most natural thing
458 2011-01-02 02:25:17 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: If you own the computer the software is on, sure, because it's your property
459 2011-01-02 02:25:18 <luke-jr> [22:24:06] <AAA_awright> marioxcc: No one's rights are violated if I choose to only distribute a compiled program
460 2011-01-02 02:25:21 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: wrong
461 2011-01-02 02:25:22 <kiba> if you own the software, you are free to reverse engineer it, modify it, etc
462 2011-01-02 02:25:23 <marioxcc> information is naturally repicable
463 2011-01-02 02:25:26 <marioxcc> and adaptable
464 2011-01-02 02:25:33 <kiba> source code are even better
465 2011-01-02 02:25:39 <marioxcc> to restrict that is merely artifficial
466 2011-01-02 02:25:44 <kiba> now you don't to poke and reverse engineer
467 2011-01-02 02:25:49 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: I could not distribute anything, whose rights are violated then?
468 2011-01-02 02:25:54 <kiba> marioxcc: it's perfectly natural for human being to restrict information.
469 2011-01-02 02:25:55 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: none
470 2011-01-02 02:26:12 <marioxcc> kiba: let's see, in the hyp. case i sell you a house
471 2011-01-02 02:26:15 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: But if I do release a compiled program, then somehow I'm violating someone's rights?
472 2011-01-02 02:26:19 <AAA_awright> Right...
473 2011-01-02 02:26:19 <marioxcc> then when you get in
474 2011-01-02 02:26:21 <marioxcc> i put the lock
475 2011-01-02 02:26:25 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: if you don't include source
476 2011-01-02 02:26:25 <marioxcc> and only me have the key
477 2011-01-02 02:26:33 <marioxcc> you have to askme for everything you want to do
478 2011-01-02 02:26:40 <marioxcc> because every room is locked
479 2011-01-02 02:26:41 <marioxcc> by my key
480 2011-01-02 02:26:47 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: ok, you do have a good point
481 2011-01-02 02:26:48 <marioxcc> that's what proprietary software does
482 2011-01-02 02:27:01 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: And so what, I've released a compiled program without sources, big deal, what can you do about it?
483 2011-01-02 02:27:07 <AAA_awright> Ask me?
484 2011-01-02 02:27:09 <kiba> marioxcc: when you buy software, you own that information. You just don't have the key to your own house. You should have brought open source software in the first place.
485 2011-01-02 02:27:17 <AAA_awright> You certainly can't force me
486 2011-01-02 02:27:23 <kiba> Now most people don't have a need or a desire to modify the software anyway
487 2011-01-02 02:27:25 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: you are right, to a limited extent
488 2011-01-02 02:27:40 <marioxcc> kiba: so it's your mistrake to buy a house I have a key on?
489 2011-01-02 02:27:52 <marioxcc> what if it's the only house left in the city?
490 2011-01-02 02:28:02 <marioxcc> what if I need a place to rest?
491 2011-01-02 02:28:04 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: It's a (perceved) violation of software freedom, if I don't have the source code to play with, but it's not a human right. It's my choice.
492 2011-01-02 02:28:09 <kiba> doesn't matter. it's your choice.
493 2011-01-02 02:28:12 <marioxcc> then you're forcing me to get locked
494 2011-01-02 02:28:23 <marioxcc> kiba: it's like if someone thorws you a gigantic bag
495 2011-01-02 02:28:25 <kiba> I didn't force you to buy the house
496 2011-01-02 02:28:27 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: correct. the only flaw remaining, is the idolization of liberty.
497 2011-01-02 02:28:28 <marioxcc> you can't breath
498 2011-01-02 02:28:32 <kiba> you brought it
499 2011-01-02 02:28:32 <marioxcc> is your choise what to do
500 2011-01-02 02:28:36 <kiba> without the fraking key
501 2011-01-02 02:28:41 <marioxcc> you can try to break the bag
502 2011-01-02 02:28:50 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Liberty is the only objective thing to argue, though
503 2011-01-02 02:28:54 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: the government has the right to make laws forcing you to include source
504 2011-01-02 02:28:57 <marioxcc> the "you brought it" argument is pointelss
505 2011-01-02 02:29:01 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: no, there is authority and morality
506 2011-01-02 02:29:03 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Says who? Certainly not me
507 2011-01-02 02:29:07 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: says God
508 2011-01-02 02:29:07 <marioxcc> you sometimes have to buy it
509 2011-01-02 02:29:08 <marioxcc> maybe not a game
510 2011-01-02 02:29:11 <AAA_awright> and government has no rights that I don't
511 2011-01-02 02:29:13 <marioxcc> but a software tool you need
512 2011-01-02 02:29:16 <luke-jr> wrong
513 2011-01-02 02:29:25 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: God endows indivdiuals with rights, not governments
514 2011-01-02 02:29:45 <kiba> luke-jr: I remember you! We used to hang out in the #anime channel.
515 2011-01-02 02:29:45 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: God endows individuals with right, true. But He also endows governments with authority/powr.
516 2011-01-02 02:29:52 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: It follows that governments do not have any powers that individuals do not. If I cannot steal, neither can government. If I can defend my self, so can government.
517 2011-01-02 02:29:54 <kiba> you're that god nut!
518 2011-01-02 02:30:42 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: it is a common fallacy, to say government gets its authority from the ruled individuals.
519 2011-01-02 02:30:53 <luke-jr> the reality is, government's authority comes from above, not below.
520 2011-01-02 02:30:57 <Animeking> at 42,000 khash persecond when am I expected to make more BC?
521 2011-01-02 02:31:03 <Animeking> a week? lol
522 2011-01-02 02:31:06 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Government does NOT get authority to violate individual rights from individuals, correct
523 2011-01-02 02:31:08 <Animeking> I've heard the difficulty has gone up
524 2011-01-02 02:31:12 <luke-jr> Animeking: my understand is that only the fastest machine can make them
525 2011-01-02 02:31:33 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: but for the most part, software is not a human right in any sense
526 2011-01-02 02:31:43 <luke-jr> and government can control it as it sees fit
527 2011-01-02 02:31:55 <AAA_awright> Uh right in what sense?
528 2011-01-02 02:31:56 <kiba> luke-jr: no, it's the luckiest machine. Naturally the higher the hashrate, the more luckier you are...because it's essentially a lottery you enter more than anybody
529 2011-01-02 02:32:06 <AAA_awright> I don't have a "right to not have no software"
530 2011-01-02 02:32:15 <kiba> if you enter the lottery more and more, you have more chance at earning bitcoin
531 2011-01-02 02:32:17 <AAA_awright> But I do have a right to be /able/ to own software
532 2011-01-02 02:32:28 <AAA_awright> er if that makes any sense
533 2011-01-02 02:32:31 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: you don't have a right to keep secrets either
534 2011-01-02 02:32:32 <AAA_awright> I don't have an entitlement
535 2011-01-02 02:32:43 <marioxcc> Animeking: please see http://www.bitcoin.org/faq#How_long_does_it_take_to_generate_a_coin
536 2011-01-02 02:32:44 <marioxcc> :)
537 2011-01-02 02:32:48 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Nonsense, I own myself, correct? I can control what I say and do.
538 2011-01-02 02:32:49 <kiba> keeping serects is the natural ability of a human being
539 2011-01-02 02:32:52 <kiba> so is making it source code
540 2011-01-02 02:32:56 <kiba> closed
541 2011-01-02 02:33:07 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: software is information and cannot be owned, except by government exercising its authority to define ownership for it
542 2011-01-02 02:33:12 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: no, you don't own yourself
543 2011-01-02 02:33:24 <luke-jr> kiba: not all abilities are rights
544 2011-01-02 02:33:33 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Information is not owned, instances of information (like my hard disk drive) are owned.
545 2011-01-02 02:33:49 <kiba> luke-jr: but property right said I should be allowed to release the software closed source.
546 2011-01-02 02:34:02 <luke-jr> kiba: property right has NOTHING to do with software period
547 2011-01-02 02:34:05 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: I have to own myself, if no one else does, it follows from the definition of ownership
548 2011-01-02 02:34:06 <Animeking> Is there a reason why the unix performancefor my CPU was higher than on windows
549 2011-01-02 02:34:06 <luke-jr> software is not property
550 2011-01-02 02:34:15 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: God does.
551 2011-01-02 02:34:21 <Animeking> as in, why I was making more khash with my cpu only on Lin than I was on Win
552 2011-01-02 02:34:27 <Animeking> 4k vs 8k on lin
553 2011-01-02 02:34:35 <kiba> if I own the software, than I have the right to manipulate its content and do whatever shit to it
554 2011-01-02 02:34:39 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: God owns individual rights, and bestows them on individuals. They are not mine to give away in that sense,.
555 2011-01-02 02:35:02 <luke-jr> kiba: nobody owns software
556 2011-01-02 02:35:10 <AAA_awright> Also yes, nobody owns information
557 2011-01-02 02:35:12 <Animeking> using the concept of God when not everyone believes in said deity bestowing rights on man is a bit off :T
558 2011-01-02 02:35:13 <AAA_awright> That's not disputed
559 2011-01-02 02:35:17 <kiba> luke-jr: wrong, everybody own information.
560 2011-01-02 02:35:24 <kiba> it looks like it's owned by nobody.
561 2011-01-02 02:35:36 <AAA_awright> Animeking: There's other arguments for individual rights too, but knowing all of them is critical
562 2011-01-02 02:35:36 <luke-jr> Animeking: God exists without belief necessary.
563 2011-01-02 02:35:40 <marioxcc> developers are not like god
564 2011-01-02 02:35:50 <Animeking> luke-jr:  thats dumb.
565 2011-01-02 02:35:51 <kiba> marioxcc: users are not also god.
566 2011-01-02 02:35:57 <marioxcc> of course
567 2011-01-02 02:35:58 <marioxcc> but
568 2011-01-02 02:36:03 <marioxcc> software is very much like mathemathics
569 2011-01-02 02:36:07 <marioxcc> it don't gets "created"
570 2011-01-02 02:36:09 <kiba> why should users have the right to force developers?
571 2011-01-02 02:36:16 <marioxcc> kiba: force?
572 2011-01-02 02:36:23 <marioxcc> to do what?
573 2011-01-02 02:36:27 <kiba> to release the source code
574 2011-01-02 02:36:32 <luke-jr> kiba: for the betterment of society
575 2011-01-02 02:36:38 <marioxcc> kiba: same question
576 2011-01-02 02:36:40 <marioxcc> the other way
577 2011-01-02 02:36:47 <marioxcc> why should have the developers the right to force users?
578 2011-01-02 02:36:52 <marioxcc> to their power?
579 2011-01-02 02:37:01 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: They don't
580 2011-01-02 02:37:07 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: they do
581 2011-01-02 02:37:08 <kiba> marioxcc: they have no power
582 2011-01-02 02:37:13 <marioxcc> how not?
583 2011-01-02 02:37:18 <kiba> the user is free to accept or deny
584 2011-01-02 02:37:28 <kiba> the developer is also free to accept or deny
585 2011-01-02 02:37:32 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: No one has the power to force anyone to do anything. If the developer has source code, no one can force them to distribute it.
586 2011-01-02 02:37:47 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: that's another fallacy
587 2011-01-02 02:37:48 <AAA_awright> Such an exchange of information has to happen voluntarially
588 2011-01-02 02:37:50 <kiba> the user have the right to pirate software, but by the same token, the developer have the right to keep the source code to be closed
589 2011-01-02 02:37:57 <marioxcc> to consfuse actual phisical power with ethics
590 2011-01-02 02:38:03 <luke-jr> marioxcc: they're right, from a libertarianism point of view
591 2011-01-02 02:38:28 <marioxcc> luke-jr: uh?
592 2011-01-02 02:38:40 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: The non-aggression axiom
593 2011-01-02 02:38:50 <Animeking> ;T Why not just live and let live. Let people do what they feel like withotu enforcing your opinions or belief on them. Whether they wanna keep their little secret formula secret or just spread it about like wildfire and overtime things will work out  :|
594 2011-01-02 02:38:52 <marioxcc> what do have that to do?
595 2011-01-02 02:39:11 <luke-jr> marioxcc: if the person with the information is not obliged to divulge the information, he is free to divulge it only partially
596 2011-01-02 02:39:36 <AAA_awright> Wikipedia: The non-aggression principle (also called the non-aggression axiom, or the anti-coercion or zero aggression principle) is an ethical stance which asserts that "aggression" is inherently illegitimate. "Aggression" is defined as the "initiation" of physical force against persons or property, the threat of such, or fraud upon persons or their property. In contrast to pacifism, the non-aggression principle does not preclude
597 2011-01-02 02:39:37 <AAA_awright> violent self-defense. The principle is a deontological (or rule-based) ethical stance.
598 2011-01-02 02:40:05 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: wikipedia is not an aurhority at all
599 2011-01-02 02:40:12 <marioxcc> his words have so much importance as mine does
600 2011-01-02 02:40:16 <marioxcc> i could well have written so
601 2011-01-02 02:40:17 <marioxcc> or you
602 2011-01-02 02:40:18 <kiba> marioxcc: that is the definition of non-agression principle we accept
603 2011-01-02 02:40:18 <marioxcc> ...
604 2011-01-02 02:40:26 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: That's doesn't fail to make it a very good definition
605 2011-01-02 02:40:34 <kiba> therefore it is accurate for AAA_awright and kiba
606 2011-01-02 02:40:41 <marioxcc> now, that's a different thing
607 2011-01-02 02:40:49 <AAA_awright> In the context of this conversation that's the definition
608 2011-01-02 02:40:58 <AAA_awright> And that's the definition practically everywhere else too
609 2011-01-02 02:41:28 <marioxcc> the problem with this
610 2011-01-02 02:41:33 <marioxcc> is you assume information is property
611 2011-01-02 02:41:36 <marioxcc> which is not
612 2011-01-02 02:41:39 <marioxcc> you could make it property
613 2011-01-02 02:41:41 <kiba> why it shouldn't be?
614 2011-01-02 02:41:44 <marioxcc> but naturally it is free
615 2011-01-02 02:41:51 <kiba> the user own his property, the developer own his property
616 2011-01-02 02:42:00 <kiba> marioxcc: it's only free if the source choose to divuge it
617 2011-01-02 02:42:00 <marioxcc> kiba: you're axiomizing
618 2011-01-02 02:42:05 <marioxcc> why is it property?
619 2011-01-02 02:42:12 <marioxcc> if I do make a son
620 2011-01-02 02:42:14 <marioxcc> is my property?
621 2011-01-02 02:42:21 <marioxcc> (this is unrelated)
622 2011-01-02 02:42:28 <marioxcc> no, true?
623 2011-01-02 02:42:30 <lfm> it is stealing when you leave it there and take a copy
624 2011-01-02 02:42:42 <kiba> lfm: I think that's merely tresspassing
625 2011-01-02 02:42:46 <marioxcc> lfm: copying isn't stealing
626 2011-01-02 02:42:49 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Information is not owned. Instances of information are.
627 2011-01-02 02:42:50 <marioxcc> by the own definition
628 2011-01-02 02:42:53 <marioxcc> if you copy you duplicate
629 2011-01-02 02:43:03 <marioxcc> the original "owner" don't have less of his copy
630 2011-01-02 02:43:09 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: I can copy information if I see it, but I can't break into your house to copy something.
631 2011-01-02 02:43:14 <kiba> marioxcc: we accept that.
632 2011-01-02 02:43:18 <lfm> no one really loses
633 2011-01-02 02:43:19 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: who says so?
634 2011-01-02 02:43:26 <kiba> this idea isn't in dispute. Remember I am against copyright.
635 2011-01-02 02:43:41 <marioxcc> kiba: i don't see a dispute
636 2011-01-02 02:43:45 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: That's what natural law is
637 2011-01-02 02:43:47 <Animeking> current day copyright is a corruption of what Copyright was originally about :|
638 2011-01-02 02:44:03 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Maybe you reject individual rights, that's another discussion, is that the discussion we need to have/
639 2011-01-02 02:44:04 <marioxcc> Animeking: we talked about in the begin of this discussion
640 2011-01-02 02:44:06 <AAA_awright> ?
641 2011-01-02 02:44:07 <kiba> Animeking: oh, that what people make justification for. In reality, it's a farce
642 2011-01-02 02:44:18 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: what do individual rights have to do here?
643 2011-01-02 02:44:32 <lfm> the worst thing about current copyright in my mind is the way it gets extended forever
644 2011-01-02 02:44:33 <kiba> alway been, alway will be
645 2011-01-02 02:44:43 <luke-jr> I support a copyright system with a 5-10 year expiracy, which requires publishing source up front
646 2011-01-02 02:45:03 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Individual rights would say that just beacuse information is unowned, it does not follow that I can violate someone's rights to acquire it (like force them to turn over their computer with the source code)
647 2011-01-02 02:45:04 <marioxcc> that would be beneficial
648 2011-01-02 02:45:14 <Animeking> we still make 50 BC atm right?
649 2011-01-02 02:45:18 <Animeking> or has it lowered finally
650 2011-01-02 02:45:24 <marioxcc> Animeking: not yet
651 2011-01-02 02:45:36 <marioxcc> it does every 4 years
652 2011-01-02 02:45:42 <marioxcc> next is 2013 i think
653 2011-01-02 02:45:48 <nanotube> every 210000 blocks
654 2011-01-02 02:45:49 <Animeking> Ah, I see
655 2011-01-02 02:45:52 <AAA_awright> because the hard disk drive, the physical representation of the information, IS owned
656 2011-01-02 02:45:52 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: in the first place
657 2011-01-02 02:45:55 <kiba> http://mises.org/store/Against-Intellectual-Property-P523.aspx
658 2011-01-02 02:45:59 <lfm> like the world would come to an end if disney copr couldnt stop[ people from makeing mickey mouse stories and pictures
659 2011-01-02 02:46:06 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: the representation is
660 2011-01-02 02:46:09 <marioxcc> the information isn't
661 2011-01-02 02:46:13 <AAA_awright> Right
662 2011-01-02 02:46:15 <marioxcc> the hard disk can't be copied
663 2011-01-02 02:46:20 <AAA_awright> Not physically no
664 2011-01-02 02:46:20 <marioxcc> its information can
665 2011-01-02 02:46:27 <marioxcc> that's what I mean
666 2011-01-02 02:46:35 <AAA_awright> Yeah right
667 2011-01-02 02:46:38 <marioxcc> you don't have less of a hard disk for copying its information
668 2011-01-02 02:46:43 <marioxcc> nor you do have less of it information
669 2011-01-02 02:46:43 <nanotube> just a friendly suggestion: consider taking the copyright talk over to #bitcoin-discussion... just in case someone drops by and actually wants to talk about stuff more directly related to bitcoin? :)
670 2011-01-02 02:46:49 <AAA_awright> Agreed... so
671 2011-01-02 02:46:51 <marioxcc> not even if you make 1K copies
672 2011-01-02 02:46:59 <marioxcc> then why should we limit how information is manipulated?
673 2011-01-02 02:47:09 <marioxcc> information isn't property
674 2011-01-02 02:47:14 <kiba> marioxcc: that what I would ask of YOU
675 2011-01-02 02:47:19 <luke-jr> here's a twist to the discussion:
676 2011-01-02 02:47:24 <kiba> why are you limiting how developer deal with their own information?
677 2011-01-02 02:47:27 <luke-jr> Are BitCoins property or information?
678 2011-01-02 02:47:28 <luke-jr> :P
679 2011-01-02 02:47:36 <AAA_awright> Dun dun DUN
680 2011-01-02 02:47:43 <marioxcc> kiba: bitcions are property
681 2011-01-02 02:47:48 <marioxcc> we know that
682 2011-01-02 02:47:55 <marioxcc> you can't copy a bitcoin
683 2011-01-02 02:47:57 <kiba> marioxcc: bitcoin are entirely digital
684 2011-01-02 02:47:57 <marioxcc> well, you can
685 2011-01-02 02:48:05 <luke-jr> actually, it's a trick question
686 2011-01-02 02:48:06 <marioxcc> but you can't spend it twice
687 2011-01-02 02:48:08 <marioxcc> you can use a software twice
688 2011-01-02 02:48:09 <AAA_awright> They are mathematically limited in number, therefore it's property
689 2011-01-02 02:48:11 <luke-jr> bitcoins are in fact, a *service*
690 2011-01-02 02:48:15 <lfm> kiba limit developers to give users more power. there are more users than developers to it is the greater good
691 2011-01-02 02:48:23 <luke-jr> the service of sending a transfer notice
692 2011-01-02 02:48:26 <AAA_awright> Anything that is limited can be property, because it has to be allocated
693 2011-01-02 02:48:39 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: allocated?
694 2011-01-02 02:48:53 <marioxcc> again the hard disk example, i copy your hard disk information into mine
695 2011-01-02 02:48:58 <kiba> in essence, bitcoin is property.
696 2011-01-02 02:48:58 <marioxcc> your hard disk is intact
697 2011-01-02 02:49:00 <AAA_awright> Right, like, with a pricing mechanism. We allocate bread based on who is willing to pay for it.
698 2011-01-02 02:49:15 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: uh?
699 2011-01-02 02:49:19 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: A lottery is another allocation mechanism, like what Bitcoin does to add new coins.
700 2011-01-02 02:49:23 <kiba> bitcoins are stored in this big vault we called the blockchain right?
701 2011-01-02 02:49:31 <kiba> the only way to assess these vault
702 2011-01-02 02:49:34 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: I disagree with that method of pricing.
703 2011-01-02 02:49:38 <kiba> is that we possess the correct key, right?
704 2011-01-02 02:49:41 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Homesteading is another allocation mechanism, which is just claiming something that is unowned
705 2011-01-02 02:49:46 <marioxcc> kiba: key?
706 2011-01-02 02:49:52 <marioxcc> there is no key kiba, it's a hash
707 2011-01-02 02:49:59 <kiba> marioxcc: wallets are our key to the big vault
708 2011-01-02 02:50:00 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: What about it?
709 2011-01-02 02:50:02 <luke-jr> just because I'm willing to expend 500 hours of my time, to get what took you 1 second to make, does not mean you should demand 500 hours of my time
710 2011-01-02 02:50:14 <kiba> wallets are a collection of private keys
711 2011-01-02 02:50:19 <kiba> that tell us who own what.
712 2011-01-02 02:50:21 <marioxcc> kiba: sorry, i thought you meant the block
713 2011-01-02 02:50:23 <luke-jr> instead, you should consider how much of my time, is worth that 1 second of yours
714 2011-01-02 02:50:24 <kiba> if you have the key, you own it!
715 2011-01-02 02:50:31 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: but if you use a house no one elase can use it
716 2011-01-02 02:50:37 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Uh, right
717 2011-01-02 02:50:37 <marioxcc> only N persons can use it at a time
718 2011-01-02 02:50:46 <marioxcc> that don't happens with information
719 2011-01-02 02:50:54 <marioxcc> and that's why it is not property
720 2011-01-02 02:51:06 <marioxcc> the question "who should have a slot in N to use this inforamation"
721 2011-01-02 02:51:12 <marioxcc> as does with your house allocatioin
722 2011-01-02 02:51:13 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: What do you mean? If you're willing to buy something for $5.50, and I'm willing to sell it at that price, an exchange is made
723 2011-01-02 02:51:14 <kiba> IF only if somebody divuge the private key
724 2011-01-02 02:51:14 <marioxcc> is meaningless
725 2011-01-02 02:51:22 <marioxcc> because an indefinite number of people could
726 2011-01-02 02:51:30 <kiba> if you divuge the key, theoritically, anybody possessing the copy of that private key can access it
727 2011-01-02 02:51:37 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: but if it's only worth $2.50 to you, you shouldn't ask for $5.50
728 2011-01-02 02:51:41 <marioxcc> kiba: what's your point?
729 2011-01-02 02:51:47 <marioxcc> i don't mean information should be public
730 2011-01-02 02:51:50 <marioxcc> just it isn't property
731 2011-01-02 02:51:57 <marioxcc> bitcoins are property on the other side, why?
732 2011-01-02 02:52:07 <marioxcc> because only someone could have it
733 2011-01-02 02:52:11 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Why not? If I sold it under price that's a cost to me
734 2011-01-02 02:52:13 <marioxcc> in the sense of have the capacity to spend it
735 2011-01-02 02:52:21 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: It's called oppertunity cost
736 2011-01-02 02:52:26 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: if it's only worth $2.50 to you, $2.50 isn't undercost
737 2011-01-02 02:52:37 <kiba> marioxcc: you own bitcoin through having the property key to access it
738 2011-01-02 02:52:51 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Yes, to be exact it would be a $3 loss
739 2011-01-02 02:52:52 <kiba> proper
740 2011-01-02 02:52:56 <Animeking> wtf is a transaction fee
741 2011-01-02 02:52:57 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Because I could have sold it for $5.50
742 2011-01-02 02:52:58 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: no
743 2011-01-02 02:53:00 <marioxcc> kiba: because
744 2011-01-02 02:53:03 <marioxcc> if you send a transaction
745 2011-01-02 02:53:08 <marioxcc> it is going to included in a block
746 2011-01-02 02:53:13 <marioxcc> and can be only used once
747 2011-01-02 02:53:19 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: but that would be extortion
748 2011-01-02 02:53:20 <marioxcc> that is how its meant to be
749 2011-01-02 02:53:26 <Animeking> And the fee?
750 2011-01-02 02:53:30 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: You can't say it's only worth $2.50 to me in any event, because I would value it for more if I could sell it for more
751 2011-01-02 02:53:34 <marioxcc> Animeking: there isn't always a fee
752 2011-01-02 02:53:43 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: that presumes greed
753 2011-01-02 02:53:43 <marioxcc> see the wiki on fees
754 2011-01-02 02:53:44 <marioxcc> :)
755 2011-01-02 02:53:47 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: What if there's multiple people willing to buy it for $2.50 what do you do?
756 2011-01-02 02:53:57 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Yes it does, nothing wrong with that
757 2011-01-02 02:53:59 <kiba> marioxcc: well, somebody have to send the bitcoin to their vault first before everyone else
758 2011-01-02 02:54:00 <Animeking> Whats the current price on BC anyways, like every 1 BC = 17 cents now?
759 2011-01-02 02:54:09 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: That fact by itself
760 2011-01-02 02:54:16 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: produce more, which might drive up the cost, if you could be spending that time making more money in other ways
761 2011-01-02 02:54:22 <AAA_awright> Animeking: Something like $0.30
762 2011-01-02 02:54:23 <jgarzik> Animeking: http://www.bitcoinwatch.com/
763 2011-01-02 02:54:24 <Animeking> and how are these prices decides :\n145494
764 2011-01-02 02:54:24 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: greed is evil
765 2011-01-02 02:54:29 <marioxcc> kiba: ?
766 2011-01-02 02:54:34 <kiba> before everyone else can use the key to send bitcoin to their vault
767 2011-01-02 02:54:46 <kiba> marioxcc: your address is a public key right?
768 2011-01-02 02:54:52 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Actually the desire for profit is a good thing because it means you took scarce, valuble resources and made them more valuble
769 2011-01-02 02:54:59 <marioxcc> kiba: public key, in the cryptographic sense
770 2011-01-02 02:55:05 <marioxcc> well, not really
771 2011-01-02 02:55:06 <kiba> behind that is a private key, right?
772 2011-01-02 02:55:07 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: If I were selling things at a loss that would mean I'm destroying value and that's bad, of course
773 2011-01-02 02:55:07 <marioxcc> it's a hash of, i think
774 2011-01-02 02:55:11 <marioxcc> yes
775 2011-01-02 02:55:16 <marioxcc> its private
776 2011-01-02 02:55:28 <marioxcc> is information don't affects someone else
777 2011-01-02 02:55:29 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: greed is bad, period
778 2011-01-02 02:55:34 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Says who?
779 2011-01-02 02:55:35 <marioxcc> as does private software
780 2011-01-02 02:55:39 <marioxcc> we have no problem with t hat
781 2011-01-02 02:55:45 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: God. morality. natural law.
782 2011-01-02 02:55:56 <marioxcc> jgarzik: did I told you?
783 2011-01-02 02:56:00 <kiba> marioxcc: but suppose a thief try to get a hold of the bitcoin, he would send bitcoin to his adress before the owner have the chance to send bitcoin to a safe address
784 2011-01-02 02:56:07 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Natural law somehow says greed is bad. ...
785 2011-01-02 02:56:16 <marioxcc> jgarzik: i'm not sure, but i have done some little changes to cpuminer
786 2011-01-02 02:56:24 <marioxcc> to make it use a work queue
787 2011-01-02 02:56:29 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: No matter how greedy I am I cannot acquire anything unless someone else voluntarially agrees to be helped
788 2011-01-02 02:56:34 <xelister> DrUNk|Im druuunk
789 2011-01-02 02:56:39 <marioxcc> and the threads to not to away for network latency
790 2011-01-02 02:56:42 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: if you have a monopoly, they have no choice
791 2011-01-02 02:56:43 <xelister> DrUNk|who wants to buy 500 BTC @ 0.01 USD
792 2011-01-02 02:56:54 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: in your system, monopoly drives value
793 2011-01-02 02:57:00 <luke-jr> xelister|DrUNk: me!
794 2011-01-02 02:57:01 <AAA_awright> xelister|DrUNk: VERY HIGH LEVELS OF INTELECTUAL CONVERSATION ARE PRESENT
795 2011-01-02 02:57:02 <marioxcc> kiba: again, bitcoins are property because they can be only spend once
796 2011-01-02 02:57:06 <marioxcc> they're like gold in this sense
797 2011-01-02 02:57:14 <xelister> DrUNk|sure, everyone just paste here your bitcoin address
798 2011-01-02 02:57:15 <jgarzik> marioxcc: you should post your patch to the forum
799 2011-01-02 02:57:19 <AAA_awright> xelister|DrUNk: DUNKEN RAMBLINGS NOT RECOMMENDED IN PRESENT ATMOSPHERE
800 2011-01-02 02:57:23 <kiba> they're property because nobody have a copy of your private key, marioxcc
801 2011-01-02 02:57:30 <jgarzik> xelister|DrUNk: drink more!
802 2011-01-02 02:57:30 <marioxcc> jgarzik: i don't like forums, that's why i'm talking to you
803 2011-01-02 02:57:41 <xelister> DrUNk|ok I TRANSFER TO luke-jr THEN
804 2011-01-02 02:57:52 <luke-jr> xelister|DrUNk: I don't have one 9
805 2011-01-02 02:57:53 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Of course you have a choice. All goods are substitutes to the extent that they satisfy human wants.
806 2011-01-02 02:57:54 <xelister> DrUNk|luke-jr: I send you -100 BTC for trying to  take advantage of poor users lol :D
807 2011-01-02 02:57:56 <marioxcc> kiba: what do you base on?
808 2011-01-02 02:57:59 <xelister> DrUNk|bbl
809 2011-01-02 02:58:00 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: or needs
810 2011-01-02 02:58:04 <kiba> my own understanding
811 2011-01-02 02:58:06 <jgarzik> marioxcc: ok
812 2011-01-02 02:58:19 <xelister> DrUNk|we need minut BTC transfers in next version, someone call satoshi lo
813 2011-01-02 02:58:21 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Need are a subset of wants. A need is just a very highly ranked want.
814 2011-01-02 02:58:45 <marioxcc> xelister|DrUNk: bitcoin is free software, you can adapt it to fit your needs
815 2011-01-02 02:59:02 <marioxcc> kiba: the key is kept private to ensure you have control over bitcoins
816 2011-01-02 02:59:22 <marioxcc> i don't see the connection
817 2011-01-02 02:59:35 <kiba> see, if somebody have a copy of my private key, they can control mine and send money to theiraddress
818 2011-01-02 02:59:47 <marioxcc> what then?
819 2011-01-02 02:59:57 <marioxcc> how do that relates to the issue information is not property?
820 2011-01-02 03:00:11 <kiba> I thought we're discussing how bitcoin are property
821 2011-01-02 03:00:18 <marioxcc> i wasn't
822 2011-01-02 03:00:27 <marioxcc> i just said bitcoins are property because you can only spend them once
823 2011-01-02 03:00:35 <marioxcc> lol
824 2011-01-02 03:00:42 <luke-jr> I still say it's a service
825 2011-01-02 03:00:50 <Diablo-D3> its both.
826 2011-01-02 03:00:55 <Diablo-D3> its a service to manage property
827 2011-01-02 03:01:04 <marioxcc> luke-jr: i don't think bitcoins are a service
828 2011-01-02 03:01:12 <marioxcc> i would say the bitcoin network is a service
829 2011-01-02 03:01:15 <marioxcc> not the bitcoins themselves
830 2011-01-02 03:01:23 <kiba> it's a service in the sense that somebody need to process the transaction
831 2011-01-02 03:01:25 <luke-jr> marioxcc: what you're bartering with is the service of signing a token over
832 2011-01-02 03:01:35 <AAA_awright> I consider services a subset of goods, the difference being that services are a person's rented out time, goods are everything else
833 2011-01-02 03:01:37 <jgarzik> I guess satoshi is on a long vacation?
834 2011-01-02 03:01:42 <jgarzik> No software updates for a while.
835 2011-01-02 03:01:44 <kiba> jgarzik: or he's dead
836 2011-01-02 03:01:47 <AAA_awright> I just say "Goods" to include services anymore
837 2011-01-02 03:01:57 <kiba> assassinated by serect CIA agents
838 2011-01-02 03:01:58 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: well, goods can be stored
839 2011-01-02 03:02:00 <marioxcc> services cant'
840 2011-01-02 03:02:05 <marioxcc> services are ephimeral
841 2011-01-02 03:02:24 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Right, services are temporal
842 2011-01-02 03:02:29 <AAA_awright> Goods are physical
843 2011-01-02 03:02:36 <jgarzik> last post Dec 12.  "last active" Dec 13.
844 2011-01-02 03:02:39 <AAA_awright> Goods also lose their value too
845 2011-01-02 03:02:41 <kiba> is Satoshi usually on a long vacation when Decemember come around?
846 2011-01-02 03:03:03 <kiba> Satoshi is a human being. He have lives.
847 2011-01-02 03:03:07 <AAA_awright> Try saving for retirement with the world's largest beef storehouse, or something
848 2011-01-02 03:03:11 <kiba> even if it is a very serect live
849 2011-01-02 03:03:26 <AAA_awright> <kiba> assassinated by serect CIA agents
850 2011-01-02 03:03:38 <Animeking> hmm
851 2011-01-02 03:03:42 <AAA_awright> He lived in China and they caught on
852 2011-01-02 03:03:46 <Animeking> i wonder if there is a way to decrease my GPUs temp
853 2011-01-02 03:03:51 <Animeking> a tempature of 80 degrees
854 2011-01-02 03:03:55 <Animeking> doesn't make me feel comfy
855 2011-01-02 03:04:02 <marioxcc> Animeking: phase change cooling
856 2011-01-02 03:04:05 <fabianhjr> Hi, sup?
857 2011-01-02 03:04:10 <Animeking> phase change?
858 2011-01-02 03:04:13 <marioxcc> or just raw liquid nitrogen
859 2011-01-02 03:04:17 <Animeking> I'm running the fan at 80 RPM
860 2011-01-02 03:04:18 <marioxcc> yeah, phase change
861 2011-01-02 03:04:24 <marioxcc> thermodynamics, you know
862 2011-01-02 03:04:30 <marioxcc> 80 RPM is very few
863 2011-01-02 03:04:31 <lolcat> My fan is running at 2800rpm
864 2011-01-02 03:04:40 <marioxcc> are you sure it's 80?
865 2011-01-02 03:04:45 <marioxcc> you would barely see it spinning
866 2011-01-02 03:04:49 <fabianhjr> lolcat: I got big ones that run at 800 RPM
867 2011-01-02 03:04:55 <Animeking> 85%
868 2011-01-02 03:04:57 <Animeking> it says
869 2011-01-02 03:04:59 <marioxcc> oh
870 2011-01-02 03:04:59 <nanotube> Animeking: cheaper solutions: clean your heatsink, use better thermal compound...
871 2011-01-02 03:05:03 <marioxcc> 85% speed
872 2011-01-02 03:05:05 <marioxcc> of maximun speed
873 2011-01-02 03:05:08 <marioxcc> that's a different number
874 2011-01-02 03:05:11 <Animeking> mmm
875 2011-01-02 03:05:15 <fabianhjr> lol, it is.
876 2011-01-02 03:05:16 <Animeking> it doesn't give exact RPM
877 2011-01-02 03:05:29 <marioxcc> fabianhjr: i use an external squirred cage shaded pole fan
878 2011-01-02 03:05:36 <lolcat> my computer is only 61C
879 2011-01-02 03:05:37 <marioxcc> runs at 127 V AV
880 2011-01-02 03:05:50 <Animeking> Like, is there any part of the CPU I can temporarily underclock
881 2011-01-02 03:05:59 <Animeking> GPU
882 2011-01-02 03:06:00 <fabianhjr> AV lol. Does it got an LCD display?
883 2011-01-02 03:06:02 <marioxcc> Animeking: did you read your doccumentation?, maybe 80 are ok
884 2011-01-02 03:06:15 <marioxcc> AC, sorry
885 2011-01-02 03:06:18 <fabianhjr> Animeking: the memory.
886 2011-01-02 03:06:30 <marioxcc> it's just a small non-computer fan
887 2011-01-02 03:06:32 <Animeking> so lowering the memory clock is a good idea?
888 2011-01-02 03:06:41 <AAA_awright> I'm having this debate with Drupal people, they think that all Drupal modules are derivative works of Drupal and therefore GPL licensed -_-
889 2011-01-02 03:06:50 <marioxcc> but much powewrfull than a computer fan (they're really crapy, < 1W power)
890 2011-01-02 03:07:11 <fabianhjr> Does anyone know what happened with the Ripple Bitcoin thing?
891 2011-01-02 03:07:20 <marioxcc> fabianhjr: ripple?
892 2011-01-02 03:07:21 <kiba> I don't know what hpapens to it
893 2011-01-02 03:07:27 <kiba> ripple is a credit thingy
894 2011-01-02 03:07:41 <kiba> but very rarely people loan people money
895 2011-01-02 03:07:50 <fabianhjr> marioxcc: yeah, someone post about integrating Bitcoins to ripple. It is a nice concept. let me get you the video.
896 2011-01-02 03:08:01 <marioxcc> fabianhjr: i don't like videos
897 2011-01-02 03:08:04 <fabianhjr> marioxcc: https://ripplepay.com/
898 2011-01-02 03:08:06 <marioxcc> a paper is fine
899 2011-01-02 03:08:14 <marioxcc> well, let's see
900 2011-01-02 03:08:20 <fabianhjr> marioxcc: there it is. The video, the paper, and the FAQ. xD
901 2011-01-02 03:08:22 <marioxcc> oh no, flash BS
902 2011-01-02 03:10:42 <fabianhjr> AFK
903 2011-01-02 03:10:43 <marioxcc> kiba: i didn't ever saw the video itself
904 2011-01-02 03:10:51 <marioxcc> do you mean the video _format_?
905 2011-01-02 03:11:08 <kiba> no, video are to be hated. Texts are better.
906 2011-01-02 03:11:13 <marioxcc> :)
907 2011-01-02 03:11:24 <marioxcc> yes, i think that
908 2011-01-02 03:12:55 <BoBeR> hey guise
909 2011-01-02 03:13:40 <BoBeR> kiba if video is hated why the large bounty?
910 2011-01-02 03:14:10 <kiba> BoBeR: because it achevied an objective. And my video is hated is merely my preference
911 2011-01-02 03:14:12 <marioxcc> BoBeR: he said "_to be_ harted"
912 2011-01-02 03:14:15 <kiba> I don't care if other people like video
913 2011-01-02 03:14:27 <kiba> or hate video
914 2011-01-02 03:14:30 <kiba> I hate video
915 2011-01-02 03:14:34 <kiba> personally
916 2011-01-02 03:14:41 <BoBeR> i see
917 2011-01-02 03:14:41 <marioxcc> why do you?
918 2011-01-02 03:14:48 <marioxcc> jut wondering
919 2011-01-02 03:15:09 <kiba> because I can understand better with words than video
920 2011-01-02 03:15:42 <marioxcc> yes
921 2011-01-02 03:15:51 <marioxcc> that's also true if you aren't a native english speaker
922 2011-01-02 03:16:09 <marioxcc> like me
923 2011-01-02 03:16:12 <BoBeR> google translate deosnt work with videos
924 2011-01-02 03:16:49 <marioxcc> i don't like automated translations
925 2011-01-02 03:17:22 <BoBeR> its better for text i mean
926 2011-01-02 03:17:42 <kiba> automated translations are not very nice but sometime it's the only information that allows us to understand
927 2011-01-02 03:17:49 <marioxcc> well, yes but
928 2011-01-02 03:17:55 <marioxcc> i know english (written) and spanish
929 2011-01-02 03:18:10 <marioxcc> that's enough for almost everything i need
930 2011-01-02 03:28:21 <marioxcc> jgarzik: here are my changes: http://200.56.150.72:8080/software/cpuminer.git/
931 2011-01-02 03:28:36 <marioxcc> if you are interested in them
932 2011-01-02 03:28:44 <marioxcc> nothing extraordinary of course, only my 2 cents
933 2011-01-02 03:35:07 <Sami345> hi
934 2011-01-02 03:35:09 <marioxcc> helllo
935 2011-01-02 03:35:23 <Sami345> go you know if I am allowed to create a custom client?
936 2011-01-02 03:35:31 <Sami345> *do
937 2011-01-02 03:35:40 <luke-jr> of course?
938 2011-01-02 03:35:55 <marioxcc> Sami345: i don't see why you wound't be
939 2011-01-02 03:36:08 <marioxcc> the original bitcoin clientis free software, you're alloed to modify it too
940 2011-01-02 03:36:22 <marioxcc> it may be less expensive to do so than to create one from scratch
941 2011-01-02 03:36:33 <marioxcc> do you have something specific in mind? :)
942 2011-01-02 03:36:36 <Sami345> doing some statics about network and maybe even use my GPU for computing :>
943 2011-01-02 03:37:14 <Sami345> With OpenCL I could support a large amount of hardware
944 2011-01-02 03:37:32 <marioxcc> Sami345: there is alredy free software for thath
945 2011-01-02 03:37:34 <marioxcc> which is free in itself
946 2011-01-02 03:37:36 <Sami345> :o
947 2011-01-02 03:37:39 <marioxcc> but you need proprietary controllers
948 2011-01-02 03:37:58 <Sami345> what is proprietary controllers
949 2011-01-02 03:38:12 <marioxcc> please see http://www.gnu.org/
950 2011-01-02 03:38:16 <marioxcc> for a definition of free software
951 2011-01-02 03:38:23 <marioxcc> propreitary software is the negation of free software
952 2011-01-02 03:38:32 <nanotube> Sami345: basically... you need the proprietary nvidia/ati graphics drivers, to use the opencl mining.
953 2011-01-02 03:38:37 <Sami345> lol :D
954 2011-01-02 03:38:39 <marioxcc> free software gives you the rights to use, copy, study and modify it to your needs
955 2011-01-02 03:38:50 <Sami345> can you give the software name please?
956 2011-01-02 03:39:20 <marioxcc> i don't suport such software
957 2011-01-02 03:39:26 <marioxcc> because it have proprietary dependencies
958 2011-01-02 03:39:29 <marioxcc> if you mean the GPU miner
959 2011-01-02 03:39:34 <marioxcc> the CPU miner is available at
960 2011-01-02 03:39:41 <marioxcc> https://github.com/jgarzik/cpuminer
961 2011-01-02 03:39:55 <marioxcc> and I just published some changes in http://200.56.150.72:8080/software/cpuminer.git/
962 2011-01-02 03:40:12 <Diablo-D3> heh
963 2011-01-02 03:40:18 <marioxcc> note this thttpd instance has been set up just to request a pull
964 2011-01-02 03:40:31 <marioxcc> it's not permanent (as the IP may make you think, of course)
965 2011-01-02 03:40:32 <marioxcc> hehe
966 2011-01-02 03:41:22 <Sami345> what I just discovered
967 2011-01-02 03:41:35 <marioxcc> ?
968 2011-01-02 03:41:36 <Sami345> Bitcoin is a very easy target for virus!
969 2011-01-02 03:41:42 <marioxcc> virus?
970 2011-01-02 03:41:57 <Sami345> It can just ready you account keys from file :(
971 2011-01-02 03:42:02 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
972 2011-01-02 03:42:02 <nanotube> Sami345: there are links to the various miners on the ,,pool page
973 2011-01-02 03:42:03 <marioxcc> virus target the human body and other animals
974 2011-01-02 03:42:20 <nanotube> Sami345: it's no worse than your bank account being target for a virus
975 2011-01-02 03:42:51 <marioxcc> there isn't really "computer viruses"
976 2011-01-02 03:43:10 <marioxcc> i prefer the term "malware"
977 2011-01-02 03:43:18 <nanotube> marioxcc: a computer virus is a terminology in common use for malicious software.