1 2011-01-05 00:02:29 <nanotube> tcatm: and iirc, if you set minconf=0, it'll show the just-arrived ones as well yes?
  2 2011-01-05 00:02:47 <tcatm> yep
  3 2011-01-05 00:02:59 <nanotube> neato
  4 2011-01-05 00:03:43 <tcatm> JSONP is very annoying :/
  5 2011-01-05 00:04:05 <nanotube> hehe well, the whole thing sounds like a big hack... so no surprise there. :P
  6 2011-01-05 00:04:24 <EvanR> welcome to the www
  7 2011-01-05 00:04:37 <EvanR> epitome of worse-is-better
  8 2011-01-05 00:04:46 <tcatm> I have to cheat to use Objects because it forgets the self-references after JSONP calls.
  9 2011-01-05 00:05:35 <EvanR> {myself: {myself: {myself: ...
 10 2011-01-05 00:05:38 <EvanR> lol
 11 2011-01-05 00:13:54 <kiba> it is not at all transparent to me how I am wrong
 12 2011-01-05 00:14:37 <xelister> tcatm: sent you 666.777
 13 2011-01-05 00:15:12 <xelister> in CLI how to list all outgoing xfers I done?
 14 2011-01-05 00:15:46 <tcatm> xelister: listtransactions should show them
 15 2011-01-05 00:17:02 <xelister> ok
 16 2011-01-05 00:30:52 <rtfm> hi
 17 2011-01-05 00:32:01 <Guest32538> guess I got split off before.. so, I am thinking BC might be good as an alternative to accept payments to paypal/"high risk" CC processors. Anyone using BC that way?
 18 2011-01-05 00:32:38 <comboy> hints for the best way to buy bitcoins having visa/paypal? I'm traveling through this different sites, they seem like made by 15 yo old in 1995 and I'm afraid to put my credentials there or they charge like 40%, what do you recommend?
 19 2011-01-05 00:33:24 <uberjar> Guest32538: yeah it'd be pretty OK for that
 20 2011-01-05 00:34:49 <alowm> is it even feasible for a core i7 quad to be trying to generate coins today, or are the GPU fellows still running the show?
 21 2011-01-05 00:35:23 <uberjar> comboy, most of the exchangers on http://www.bitcoin.org/trade are for real
 22 2011-01-05 00:35:44 <uberjar> comboy: I can personally vouch for http://www.nanaimo-gold.com/
 23 2011-01-05 00:36:19 <uberjar> Guest32538: I want to create a private tracker site that encourges people to tip good uploads using BTC
 24 2011-01-05 00:36:45 <uberjar> Guest32538: it would be too painful to try to impliment micropayments like that with normal credit card processing
 25 2011-01-05 00:36:58 <comboy> uberjar: about bitcoin/trade, been there, browsed a lot, many exchangers are closed, this nanaimo does not seem to accept paypal or visa
 26 2011-01-05 00:38:05 <uberjar> comboy: generally speaking..  I think the problem is that trading an irrevocable currency for revocable credit is fundamentally a bad idea.
 27 2011-01-05 00:38:37 <uberjar> this is why you can't buy gold-backed e-currency such as pecunix or cgold with credit cards
 28 2011-01-05 00:38:57 <comboy> uberjar: any suggestions for other ways to get bitcoins then? other than generating them
 29 2011-01-05 00:39:02 <uberjar> because credit cards can "charge back" but there is no way to "charge back" a bitcoin transfer
 30 2011-01-05 00:39:27 <uberjar> you could purchase BTC with bank wires
 31 2011-01-05 00:39:48 <marioxcc> comboy: accept them as a payment for a service or goods
 32 2011-01-05 00:39:48 <uberjar> or purchase pecunix, cgold, or liberty reserve with a bank wire
 33 2011-01-05 00:39:53 <uberjar> then trade for btc
 34 2011-01-05 00:39:54 <marioxcc> or request donations
 35 2011-01-05 00:39:56 <marioxcc> you can get some in
 36 2011-01-05 00:40:03 <marioxcc> https://freebitcoins.appspot.com/
 37 2011-01-05 00:40:26 <comboy> I already have 50 being lucky to find a block
 38 2011-01-05 00:40:30 <chuck251> buy then sell gift cards? amazon itunes etc..
 39 2011-01-05 00:41:01 <comboy> but I really do not want to spend too much time with this, I just want to invest some of my money, I' have my job I do not want to ttrade things for bitcoins
 40 2011-01-05 00:41:15 <marioxcc> comboy: then buy BTC
 41 2011-01-05 00:41:30 <marioxcc> they're not a game, if you want bitcoins you must work for them the one way or another
 42 2011-01-05 00:41:32 <comboy> I guess I'll have to try some wire transfer, but I have troubles finding service that looks trustworthy
 43 2011-01-05 00:41:35 <marioxcc> like other money currencies
 44 2011-01-05 00:42:02 <comboy> marioxcc: looks like you haven't seen my first question in this conversation
 45 2011-01-05 00:42:52 <marioxcc> no, I don't serach the complete log before writting a comment :P
 46 2011-01-05 00:42:54 <marioxcc> this is IRC
 47 2011-01-05 00:43:12 <comboy> ok marioxcc thanks for comment
 48 2011-01-05 00:43:19 <chuck251> comboy, I agree... if there were a site that would sell bitcoins for paypal, I would have bought a lot, but I don't want to wire money or give out credit card #'s, so I am sticking to generating for now
 49 2011-01-05 00:43:25 <marioxcc> np
 50 2011-01-05 00:43:37 <comboy> chuck251: exactly my point
 51 2011-01-05 00:43:49 <uberjar> comboy, generally what I do is I buy pecunix gold-currency to play online poker at pecunix casinos.  I buy this pecunix with a bank wire transfer and there are dozens of well known and reputible pecunix exchangers out there.
 52 2011-01-05 00:44:06 <uberjar> then I trade some of my pecunix for BTC when I need BTC
 53 2011-01-05 00:44:52 <brocktice> chuck251: there is bitcoin market
 54 2011-01-05 00:44:57 <brocktice> chuck251: also check out #bitcoin-otc
 55 2011-01-05 00:45:11 <comboy> hmm, ok so you reccomend pecunix? I was starting with libertyreserve as this currency to buy btc
 56 2011-01-05 00:45:21 <uberjar> either is fine
 57 2011-01-05 00:45:34 <uberjar> pecunix is larger, has been around longer, and I like better
 58 2011-01-05 00:45:42 <uberjar> pecunix is in a better jurisdiction
 59 2011-01-05 00:45:50 <comboy> so in case I go for wire transfer, any recommendationns for specific sites that accept that?
 60 2011-01-05 00:45:52 <uberjar> liberty reserve could be snatched up by the US FBI at any point and time
 61 2011-01-05 00:46:10 <uberjar> whereas pecunix is more resistant to interference by NATO powers.
 62 2011-01-05 00:46:27 <uberjar> comboy: yeah 1 sec
 63 2011-01-05 00:47:28 <comboy> if you are saying it's used in poker maybe I should also ask my friend that's making living out of it to sell me some poker currency that will be easier to trade to btc..
 64 2011-01-05 00:47:59 <uberjar> depending on where he lives he's probably already using something like pecunix or liberty reserve to play poker
 65 2011-01-05 00:48:14 <comboy> europe
 66 2011-01-05 00:48:39 <comboy> I'll ask then, that's a good hint
 67 2011-01-05 00:49:06 <uberjar> http://www.talkgold.com  <-- good forum for reading reviews about various exchangers
 68 2011-01-05 00:49:30 <brocktice> what's that site for CC purchases?
 69 2011-01-05 00:49:31 <comboy> oh, great
 70 2011-01-05 00:49:33 <brocktice> bitcoin gateway?
 71 2011-01-05 00:50:33 <comboy> "BitcoinGateway.com is closed for maintenance"
 72 2011-01-05 00:50:42 <brocktice> oh, damn
 73 2011-01-05 00:50:42 <comboy> like so many others
 74 2011-01-05 00:51:11 <brocktice> Well, I'll take paypal gift transactions for BTC.
 75 2011-01-05 00:51:31 <brocktice> go to #bitcoin-otc and do ;;getrating brocktice if you want to check my reputation
 76 2011-01-05 00:51:43 <brocktice> actually I think it should work here because gribble is in here
 77 2011-01-05 00:51:46 <brocktice> ;;getrating brocktice
 78 2011-01-05 00:51:46 <gribble> User brocktice was created on Mon Nov  8 17:16:40 2010, and has a cumulative rating of 15, from a total of 4 ratings. Of these, 4 are positive and 0 are negative. This user has also sent 8 positive ratings, and 0 negative ratings to others.
 79 2011-01-05 00:52:13 <comboy> well, I think we could try
 80 2011-01-05 00:59:01 <luke-jr> wtf is this ECDSA junk?
 81 2011-01-05 01:00:30 <jgarzik> luke-jr: public/private key signatures
 82 2011-01-05 01:00:55 <luke-jr> why not something standard like PGP?
 83 2011-01-05 01:02:19 <TheRealPlato> read the whitepaper
 84 2011-01-05 01:02:30 <luke-jr> tl;dr
 85 2011-01-05 01:02:41 <TheRealPlato> SOL
 86 2011-01-05 01:02:44 <TheRealPlato> sry
 87 2011-01-05 01:02:46 <TheRealPlato> idfk
 88 2011-01-05 01:02:48 <TheRealPlato> i'm curious too
 89 2011-01-05 01:02:54 <TheRealPlato> did anyone ever end up making that explanatory video for a bounty
 90 2011-01-05 01:04:03 <xelister> do we have a good exchange that acceepts EUR wires?
 91 2011-01-05 01:04:51 <marioxcc> still no MXN exchange?
 92 2011-01-05 01:05:12 <jgarzik> xelister: mtgox accepts EUR wires, I thought?
 93 2011-01-05 01:05:59 <xelister> hmm I wonder though
 94 2011-01-05 01:06:06 <xelister> will places like mtgox have problems
 95 2011-01-05 01:06:09 <xelister> from the IRS et
 96 2011-01-05 01:06:11 <xelister> etc
 97 2011-01-05 01:07:41 <kiba> anarcho-capitalism is a very foreign idea to most people
 98 2011-01-05 01:08:41 <brocktice> therI thought I was a libertarian
 99 2011-01-05 01:08:46 <brocktice> sorry about the ther
100 2011-01-05 01:08:54 <brocktice> Apparently I'm more of an anarcho-capitalist
101 2011-01-05 01:09:26 <kiba> you are a libertarian
102 2011-01-05 01:09:57 <brocktice> there are some differences
103 2011-01-05 01:09:59 <kiba> anarcho-capitalism is a conception in libertarianism land
104 2011-01-05 01:10:07 <brocktice> ok, fair enough
105 2011-01-05 01:10:16 <brocktice> You could call it a subset
106 2011-01-05 01:10:19 <brocktice> anyway, time for bed
107 2011-01-05 01:11:06 <AAA_awright> Anarchocapitalism ??? Liberalism
108 2011-01-05 01:11:08 <AAA_awright> Right
109 2011-01-05 01:11:14 <TheRealPlato> night
110 2011-01-05 01:11:28 <AAA_awright> Or if you consider them seperate concepts, Anarchocapitalism ??? Libertarianism ??? Liberalism
111 2011-01-05 01:11:47 <xelister> you know what would be nice
112 2011-01-05 01:11:52 <xelister> free country
113 2011-01-05 01:11:58 <AAA_awright> I like this ida
114 2011-01-05 01:12:00 <xelister> all is legal
115 2011-01-05 01:12:02 <xelister> erm
116 2011-01-05 01:12:19 <AAA_awright> Well, no, free and law can co-exist
117 2011-01-05 01:12:21 <tcatm> http://bitcoincharts.com/media/stuff/js-remote/ very early alpha, can display server information and balance
118 2011-01-05 01:12:24 <AAA_awright> How about no *arbritary* law
119 2011-01-05 01:12:24 <xelister> all is legal that is now legal in sum of EU and USA law (OR'ing allowances, not AND'ing - so more things not less)
120 2011-01-05 01:12:25 <xelister> plus
121 2011-01-05 01:12:41 <xelister> all to which all parties affected agree under no pressure (and in mentall capacity to do so)
122 2011-01-05 01:12:43 <xelister> about taxes
123 2011-01-05 01:12:57 <xelister> one idea I seen with this online
124 2011-01-05 01:13:01 <xelister> was to just pay constant fee
125 2011-01-05 01:13:24 <xelister> or, pay small fee for 'being in country', better if you want to access more or better services from the state
126 2011-01-05 01:13:48 <kiba> twincest wincest!
127 2011-01-05 01:13:49 <AAA_awright> xelister: Here's an idea. Everyone owns property, and the only laws you follow are those for those of the property of other people.
128 2011-01-05 01:14:03 <xelister> basically state only ensures that agreements between people are kept and noone is forced to do things against own will,  and is NOT punised for things that did not hurt anyone
129 2011-01-05 01:14:14 <xelister> AAA_awright: quuestion what to do with copyright
130 2011-01-05 01:14:30 <xelister> e.g. it should be author's liberty to demand money or dissallow making copies
131 2011-01-05 01:14:42 <xelister> and it should be customers liberty to copu/share it... what now :)
132 2011-01-05 01:15:04 <xelister> jgarzik: I didnt yet actually used mtgox transaciions
133 2011-01-05 01:15:16 <AAA_awright> xelister: Well, the book is my property, to my laws. No copyright.
134 2011-01-05 01:15:38 <xelister> AAA_awright: you made photo of your gf giving you bj
135 2011-01-05 01:15:44 <xelister> am I free to copy it when you oppose that
136 2011-01-05 01:15:52 <AAA_awright> A publisher could have a copyright of sorts, but only while they are the owners of the book. That means, not after they sell it to me.
137 2011-01-05 01:15:59 <xelister> but I guess this falls under privacy&secrecy more
138 2011-01-05 01:16:17 <AAA_awright> Eh, well, nothing illegal about it
139 2011-01-05 01:16:29 <AAA_awright> Unless that person stole my camera to get it
140 2011-01-05 01:16:33 <xelister> hm
141 2011-01-05 01:17:05 <AAA_awright> Then who knows, accounting for damages resulting from the theft, my penalty could be pretty high, yes?
142 2011-01-05 01:17:48 <TheRealPlato> has anyone read The Diamond Age
143 2011-01-05 01:18:05 <TheRealPlato> it describes a world where decentralized anonymous currency brought down all the nation states
144 2011-01-05 01:18:13 <TheRealPlato> so everyone follows the Common Economic Protocol
145 2011-01-05 01:18:24 <TheRealPlato> basically, you can do anything as long as it doesn't economically hurt another entity
146 2011-01-05 01:19:21 <TheRealPlato> it's by neal stephenson. I just reread it, it's pretty prescient for a 1995 work
147 2011-01-05 01:20:05 <kiba> TheRealPlato: "economically" hurt another entity?
148 2011-01-05 01:20:29 <TheRealPlato> sure, you shoot someone, they have to pay bills, lose work, etc
149 2011-01-05 01:20:56 <kartofeln> you offend someone, they have to go to therapy, and that ain't free? O_o
150 2011-01-05 01:20:57 <TheRealPlato> you block a road in the city you live in, someone's gotta pay for it
151 2011-01-05 01:21:38 <TheRealPlato> sure, if they can prove it in whatever court system exists in their... tribe, you get punished
152 2011-01-05 01:22:01 <TheRealPlato> that's just incidental
153 2011-01-05 01:22:06 <TheRealPlato> i like it just because it's a really good book
154 2011-01-05 01:22:20 <kiba> pyre
155 2011-01-05 01:22:26 <TheRealPlato> very, very compelling plot, and it's set in a world where nanotech is pretty omnipresent
156 2011-01-05 01:22:49 <kiba> and with the main character who got molested
157 2011-01-05 01:23:25 <kartofeln> ah why not.. still seems like less work than unleashing the Singularity upon an unsuspecting world.
158 2011-01-05 01:23:47 <kiba> 3D printers
159 2011-01-05 01:23:48 <kiba> and bitcoin
160 2011-01-05 01:24:09 <kartofeln> the day 3d printers can do more than shape molten plastic, I'll get a bit more excited about them.
161 2011-01-05 01:24:25 <kiba> you can do a lot with plastics
162 2011-01-05 01:24:30 <kartofeln> right now, reprap is an exciting concept with a rather lukewarm reality.
163 2011-01-05 01:24:38 <TheRealPlato> you ever looked at the 'Art' section on www.shapeways./com
164 2011-01-05 01:24:41 <TheRealPlato> FFFFFFFFFFCUCK
165 2011-01-05 01:24:46 <TheRealPlato> www.shapeways.com
166 2011-01-05 01:25:33 <kiba> kartofeln: well, they can already print electrical pathway or something like that
167 2011-01-05 01:25:47 <TheRealPlato> yeah
168 2011-01-05 01:25:48 <TheRealPlato> kiba
169 2011-01-05 01:25:55 <TheRealPlato> you can print solar cells on flexible substrates
170 2011-01-05 01:26:05 <TheRealPlato> http://www.google.com/search?q=thin+film+solar
171 2011-01-05 01:26:22 <kiba> it's the matter of getting the extruder to support multimaterial extrusion
172 2011-01-05 01:26:36 <TheRealPlato> that'd be baller
173 2011-01-05 01:27:43 <kartofeln> holy fat circuits batman! http://blog.reprap.org/2009/04/first-reprapped-circuit.html
174 2011-01-05 01:27:47 <kartofeln> still, it's a step.
175 2011-01-05 01:29:50 <kiba> kartofeln: I got an idea of a self-replicating lego train network
176 2011-01-05 01:29:51 <kartofeln> so uh.. here's a question I haven't seen in the faq or (recent) forums: What's to stop anybody from taking the source for bitcoin, start with a new seed block, and create bitmoney, or bitcash, or whatever?
177 2011-01-05 01:30:11 <kiba> they can, but would anybody use it?
178 2011-01-05 01:30:28 <kartofeln> why wouldn't they? It has exactly as much intrinsic value as bitcoins.
179 2011-01-05 01:30:33 <kartofeln> so it becomes a marketing issue.
180 2011-01-05 01:31:01 <kiba> we have the first mover advantage
181 2011-01-05 01:31:12 <kiba> BY SHEER inertia
182 2011-01-05 01:31:18 <kartofeln> yes.
183 2011-01-05 01:31:18 <TheRealPlato> uh
184 2011-01-05 01:31:26 <TheRealPlato> if goldman sachs knew this channel existed
185 2011-01-05 01:31:29 <TheRealPlato> they would probably do it
186 2011-01-05 01:31:41 <kartofeln> Still, expect that kind of stuff to happen once you reach a certain threshold of success.
187 2011-01-05 01:31:47 <kiba> maybe it's too foreign of a concept to Goldman Sachs
188 2011-01-05 01:31:49 <TheRealPlato> whatever inertia bitcoin has so far is basically negligible
189 2011-01-05 01:31:54 <TheRealPlato> kiba: i hope so!
190 2011-01-05 01:33:57 <alowm> you guys should read A Lodging of Wayfaring Men
191 2011-01-05 01:34:01 <alowm> <-- hence my name
192 2011-01-05 01:34:39 <alowm> it's about private markets/currencies and how they disrupt things :)
193 2011-01-05 01:34:46 <kartofeln> http://www.sunnimaravillosa.com/books/lodging.html compares it to Atlas Shrugged. I'm scared.
194 2011-01-05 01:35:31 <alowm> yeah, that aspect of it is less interesting than the visualisation of what untraceable/untaxable transactions will do
195 2011-01-05 01:36:31 <kartofeln> full e-book apparently available here: http://agorism.info/_media/a-lodging-of-wayfaring-men.pdf
196 2011-01-05 01:37:03 <alowm> it was originally published anonymously, so there was no one to really claim copyright on it
197 2011-01-05 01:37:23 <alowm> that one was good, and i liked Toward a Private Digital Economy as well
198 2011-01-05 01:37:37 <kartofeln> it's CC A-NC-SA, so all is well.
199 2011-01-05 01:38:00 <alowm> quantifying trust is a pretty interesting problem to solve
200 2011-01-05 01:40:46 <kartofeln> another n00b question: It seems like transactions are somehow tied to the block generation/mining process. What happens when mining stops/slows down drastically?
201 2011-01-05 01:44:56 <dwdollar> Goldman Sachs accept Bitcoin???  That's a hoot...
202 2011-01-05 01:45:16 <kartofeln> accept or subvert, whichever is more likely..
203 2011-01-05 01:45:50 <marioxcc> so they're limited to small sites? :(
204 2011-01-05 01:47:45 <dwdollar> Goldman Sachs would never endorse a currency that they can not control.
205 2011-01-05 01:48:11 <marioxcc> ???who is goldman sachs?
206 2011-01-05 01:48:28 <kartofeln> it's not that bad. technically, they don't control most currencies out there, but it doesn't mean they don't play with them.
207 2011-01-05 01:49:20 <dwdollar> A big investment bank in bed with the Federal Reserve.
208 2011-01-05 01:49:33 <alowm> they affect USD, though, which is part of around 84% of all international currency trades
209 2011-01-05 02:19:46 <xelister> but um
210 2011-01-05 03:00:02 <johnyh> this is 500 BTC that was sent to someone - http://blockexplorer.com/address/1Pfhnh6EniEYxQEd9MbrHdu1iJ8RDRDVBD
211 2011-01-05 03:00:11 <johnyh> it was sent with description/label.
212 2011-01-05 03:00:33 <johnyh> where to see that label in the blockexplorer?
213 2011-01-05 03:00:47 <theymos> The label is private. No one but the sender knows it.
214 2011-01-05 03:01:09 <johnyh> ohh.
215 2011-01-05 03:01:23 <marioxcc> i think they're not public
216 2011-01-05 03:01:24 <kartofeln> is the lack of transactions attached to the early blocks due to the merkle tree pruning?
217 2011-01-05 03:01:45 <marioxcc> kartofeln: "early blocks"?
218 2011-01-05 03:01:57 <kartofeln> those kind of blocks http://blockexplorer.com/b/1
219 2011-01-05 03:02:04 <theymos> kartofeln: No. Bitcoin doesn't prune yet (and probably won't for a long time). There were just few transactions then.
220 2011-01-05 03:02:11 <kartofeln> oh ok
221 2011-01-05 03:03:07 <kartofeln> is it correct that the creation of new blocks will slowdown over time and eventually stop altogether?
222 2011-01-05 03:03:13 <theymos> No.
223 2011-01-05 03:03:38 <kartofeln> oh. so block creation continues at the same rate, but the value of each block diminishes?
224 2011-01-05 03:03:38 <theymos> The coins generated for each blocks gets lower, but the difficulty adjusts to keep generation steady.
225 2011-01-05 03:03:42 <kartofeln> ok
226 2011-01-05 03:04:11 <theymos> Eventually generators will make more on transaction fees than generations.
227 2011-01-05 03:04:18 <kartofeln> once the value generated per block gets low enough, isn't there a risk of general disinterest in block generation?
228 2011-01-05 03:04:26 <kartofeln> ah I see
229 2011-01-05 03:05:08 <kartofeln> is there a technical document that goes over all this stuff? the initial paper is a bit light on those kind of specifics?
230 2011-01-05 03:05:23 <theymos> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fee
231 2011-01-05 03:06:58 <kartofeln> one more n00b question if I may: I've seen pages that claim BTC can be subdivided in tiny quantities way below cents, yet it seems that current clients truncate subcent amounts from transactions. Is that going to change or am I missing something?
232 2011-01-05 03:07:25 <theymos> It will change as needed.
233 2011-01-05 03:07:43 <nanotube> kartofeln: that's just the client rounding... it can be changed - even you can change it right now if you edit code.
234 2011-01-05 03:07:56 <kartofeln> ok cool
235 2011-01-05 03:08:05 <theymos> Generators won't accept sub-cent transactions right now, though.
236 2011-01-05 03:08:44 <nanotube> theymos: really? even if fee is paid?
237 2011-01-05 03:09:00 <nanotube> i'm pretty sure with a .01 fee, they'll accept any amount
238 2011-01-05 03:09:34 <kartofeln> in a world where sub-cent transactions are desirable, .01 is probably a lot of money to grease a wheel.
239 2011-01-05 03:09:45 <nanotube> kartofeln: tx fee schedule will change as needed, to
240 2011-01-05 03:09:46 <nanotube> o
241 2011-01-05 03:09:49 <theymos> They will. I suppose you could bunde together tons of sub-cent outputs.
242 2011-01-05 03:10:20 <theymos> Actually, transactions with more than two outputs aren't accepted, either.
243 2011-01-05 03:10:51 <nanotube> oh really? is that one of the relatively-new 'safety checks' ?
244 2011-01-05 03:11:17 <nanotube> mm actually, iirc gavin has created a multi-output tx recently as a test... and it seems to have made it into the chain just fine
245 2011-01-05 03:12:10 <theymos> That was on the test chain. He generated a block. This particular limitation has been around for a while (after the overflow issue).
246 2011-01-05 03:12:32 <kartofeln> for someone wanted to stare at code, would you suggest grabbing from the SVN tree or from the github tree? Or are the two consistently kept in sync?
247 2011-01-05 03:12:37 <kartofeln> *wanting
248 2011-01-05 03:13:10 <theymos> Github contains code that might not make it into Bitcoin, I believe.
249 2011-01-05 03:13:21 <theymos> They're nearly the same, however.
250 2011-01-05 03:13:22 <TheRealPlato> did any of you see that guy climbing the brooklyn bridge and exploring subway tunnels
251 2011-01-05 03:19:00 <kartofeln> are there any correct reimplementations of the bitcoin protocol? I remember seeing a mention of a java port.
252 2011-01-05 03:20:58 <theymos> No. MT`AwAy is working on one (not sure what language).
253 2011-01-05 03:23:11 <kartofeln> ok. thanks for answering all my questions :)
254 2011-01-05 03:24:19 <MT`AwAy> theymos: C++
255 2011-01-05 03:26:33 <gribble> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin-client/ | Sep 30, 2010 ... Get Java Bitcoin Client at SourceForge.net. Fast, secure and free downloads from the largest Open Source applications and software ...
256 2011-01-05 03:26:33 <nanotube> kartofeln: there's also a java client someone's working on. ,,(sl java bitcoin client)
257 2011-01-05 03:26:51 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification | Dec 30, 2010 ... 4, version, uint32_t, Identifies protocol version being used by the node. 8, services, uint64_t, bitfield of features to be enabled for this ...
258 2011-01-05 03:26:51 <nanotube> and there's also protocol documentation on the bitcoin wiki ,,(bc,wiki protocol)
259 2011-01-05 03:37:08 <luke-jr> I wonder, if governments would be more likely to tolerate BTC if BTC users all voluntarily paid the proper tax due for it
260 2011-01-05 03:40:44 <nanotube> luke-jr: i'm sure some do... and for all they know, that's all of them. :)
261 2011-01-05 03:41:31 <luke-jr> really?
262 2011-01-05 03:41:35 <luke-jr> I mean, before converting to USD
263 2011-01-05 03:42:08 <luke-jr> I would imagine they would have problems when converting later-- would the LR trust their claim to have already paid the tax?
264 2011-01-05 03:50:42 <nanotube> luke-jr: well, gov't probably wouldn't accept taxes in bitcoin. :P
265 2011-01-05 03:51:22 <luke-jr> nanotube: can pay taxes on BTC in USD :P
266 2011-01-05 03:52:10 <kiba> the government might find bitcoin to be a threatening to their money monopoly
267 2011-01-05 03:53:38 <nanotube> luke-jr: yes you can, i suppose, just like paying tax on foreign currency profits, etc.
268 2011-01-05 03:54:37 <EvanR> whos money monopoly
269 2011-01-05 03:54:43 <EvanR> visa, mastercard?
270 2011-01-05 03:54:50 <EvanR> they own it all
271 2011-01-05 04:00:56 <luke-jr> hmm
272 2011-01-05 04:01:12 <luke-jr> web bitcoind binary = 3.8 MB
273 2011-01-05 04:01:19 <luke-jr> Qt4-based bitcoind = 5.3 MB
274 2011-01-05 04:01:21 <luke-jr> -.-
275 2011-01-05 04:05:16 <luke-jr> bzr branch lp:~luke-jr/+junk/bitcoin-qt # if anyone wants to check out Qt-based bitcoind
276 2011-01-05 04:05:29 <luke-jr> currently just builds with qmake and uses QCA for hashing
277 2011-01-05 04:06:07 <luke-jr> hopefully can replace all of crypto++ with QCA, then replace 'json' with QJson
278 2011-01-05 04:06:19 <luke-jr> and anything else that makes sense
279 2011-01-05 04:07:45 <kartofeln> is QCA better than Crypto++?
280 2011-01-05 04:07:57 <luke-jr> it's at least a standard system library :P
281 2011-01-05 04:08:18 <lfm> then there is gcrypt
282 2011-01-05 04:08:26 <luke-jr> but gcrypt is GTK/glib trash
283 2011-01-05 04:08:40 <luke-jr> no idea on performance for QCA, but that's only important for miners :P
284 2011-01-05 04:08:49 <kartofeln> are they all build on top of openssl, or do they have their own implementations of crypto primitives?
285 2011-01-05 04:08:53 <lfm> noppe gcrypt is gnu crypt
286 2011-01-05 04:09:07 <luke-jr> kartofeln: not sure
287 2011-01-05 04:09:48 <lfm> Libgcrypt (version 1.4.1, 4 January 2008), which is
288 2011-01-05 04:09:49 <lfm> GNU's library of cryptographic building blocks.
289 2011-01-05 04:09:57 <kartofeln> I see
290 2011-01-05 04:10:52 <luke-jr> looks to have its own MD5
291 2011-01-05 04:10:56 <luke-jr> not sure where SHA256 is in the src
292 2011-01-05 04:11:02 <kartofeln> I think the most obvious crypto-related win for bitcoin client would be to ship something with openCL support baked in.
293 2011-01-05 04:11:34 <lfm> naw miners aree properly seperate modules
294 2011-01-05 04:11:49 <kartofeln> not terribly user friendly, though.
295 2011-01-05 04:11:58 <kartofeln> unless the intent is that only tech savyy users should have miners.
296 2011-01-05 04:12:12 <luke-jr> good. opencl should not be encouraged until there's a free implementation
297 2011-01-05 04:12:19 <lfm> fewer users as opposed to hackers mining the better
298 2011-01-05 04:12:32 <kartofeln> hackers?
299 2011-01-05 04:12:42 <lfm> programmers
300 2011-01-05 04:12:46 <luke-jr> kartofeln: the core isn't user friendly, either
301 2011-01-05 04:12:59 <luke-jr> the GUI can/should spawn core and any other modules as needed
302 2011-01-05 04:13:05 <kartofeln> user friendly in that you get a pretty window and it takes two clicks to start mining.
303 2011-01-05 04:13:24 <kartofeln> sorry, maybe it doesn't belong in the core from an architecture standpoint.
304 2011-01-05 04:13:34 <kartofeln> but it ought to ship with the initial download and be usable from the gui.
305 2011-01-05 04:13:35 <lfm> have bitcoin spawn a browser for the forums and irc
306 2011-01-05 04:13:42 <luke-jr> kartofeln: CPU miner, ok
307 2011-01-05 04:13:45 <luke-jr> GPU miner, must die
308 2011-01-05 04:13:50 <kartofeln> why?
309 2011-01-05 04:13:57 <luke-jr> proprietary driver required
310 2011-01-05 04:14:22 <lfm> luke good idea, no one should be allowed gpu miners but me
311 2011-01-05 04:14:24 <kartofeln> it's a bit like saying android must die because it can't run without proprietary drivers currently.
312 2011-01-05 04:14:37 <luke-jr> kartofeln: ok, but Android should die because it just plain sucks
313 2011-01-05 04:14:45 <kartofeln> purity is good and all that, but coding against an open spec has value nonetheless.
314 2011-01-05 04:15:09 <luke-jr> sure, it has value
315 2011-01-05 04:15:17 <luke-jr> just not bundled for end users until it's usable freely
316 2011-01-05 04:15:45 <luke-jr> the only thing GPU miners accomplish is increasing the difficulty drastically
317 2011-01-05 04:15:52 <luke-jr> and making it harder for legit/CPU miners
318 2011-01-05 04:17:29 <kartofeln> it would be fun if there was a way to "prove" in your block generation that the computation for it was done without a GPU.
319 2011-01-05 04:18:04 <luke-jr> what if the work was compressing the block below a certain size?
320 2011-01-05 04:18:13 <luke-jr> verification is a simple decompress
321 2011-01-05 04:18:19 <kartofeln> then there'd be a temptation to create cpu-only clients that would blatantly ignore gpu-created blocks, hence forking the chain for their own little cpu-only group.
322 2011-01-05 04:18:24 <lfm> why is that usefull?
323 2011-01-05 04:18:42 <luke-jr> lfm: puts that CPU power to making the blocks smaller
324 2011-01-05 04:19:06 <luke-jr> possibly compressing the whole block chain, if more difficulty is needed
325 2011-01-05 04:19:09 <lfm> and that is usefull how?
326 2011-01-05 04:19:14 <kartofeln> from a pure number crunching standpoint, there isn't going to be a lot of problems where CPUs can still beat GPUs, I think
327 2011-01-05 04:19:15 <luke-jr> savign on the disk space bloat
328 2011-01-05 04:19:34 <luke-jr> kartofeln: then why don't we just get rid of the CPUs and run all our apps on GPUs?
329 2011-01-05 04:19:36 <lfm> as opposed to a standard compression routine?
330 2011-01-05 04:20:02 <kartofeln> because most of what we do with computers isn't number crunching :P
331 2011-01-05 04:20:05 <luke-jr> lfm: that also: it could find new compression algos for general purpose data for us :
332 2011-01-05 04:21:02 <lfm> why dont you have it find peace in the mideast?
333 2011-01-05 04:21:10 <ArtForz> or a sandwich
334 2011-01-05 04:21:10 <luke-jr> in fact, if block compression isn't needed, just give it random public user data to try to discover a new compression record
335 2011-01-05 04:21:11 <kartofeln> but the "useful proof-of-work" idea is kinda fun.. an hybrid between bitcoin and distributed.net, maybe.
336 2011-01-05 04:21:26 <luke-jr> lfm: that's easy, get rid of "Israel"'s illegal occupation.
337 2011-01-05 04:22:28 <nanotube> or, equivalently, have palestinian state of jordan accept the bunch of "refugees" hanging out west of the river.
338 2011-01-05 04:22:47 <kartofeln> <insert single unilateral action that somehow brings peace on earth here>
339 2011-01-05 04:22:48 <lfm> luke-jr I think that was tried, back in the 1940s
340 2011-01-05 04:22:57 <nanotube> or hell, just nuke the whole place from orbit. it's the only way to be sure.
341 2011-01-05 04:24:03 <luke-jr> well, just nuke the middle-east
342 2011-01-05 04:24:09 <luke-jr> then if there is still fighting, it won't be there
343 2011-01-05 04:24:38 <kartofeln> you'd be surprised at how agitated radiactive mutants can get.
344 2011-01-05 04:24:48 <luke-jr> keep nuking then
345 2011-01-05 04:25:33 <luke-jr> maybe nuke all the big capitals too while you're at it
346 2011-01-05 04:25:46 <luke-jr> post-apocalyptic world is fun, eh
347 2011-01-05 04:25:48 <kiba> how in the world do we have a Chinese using bitcoin?
348 2011-01-05 04:25:51 <lfm> agitated radioactive mutants with their own nukes to throw back at you
349 2011-01-05 04:26:02 <luke-jr> lol
350 2011-01-05 04:27:01 <luke-jr> lfm: well, dont give them nukes obviously
351 2011-01-05 04:27:17 <kartofeln> bitcoin isn't supposed to cross the great firewall?
352 2011-01-05 04:27:50 <luke-jr> kiba: it's a spy!
353 2011-01-05 04:28:08 <lfm> luke you havnt been paying attention, isreal has nukes already
354 2011-01-05 04:28:26 <luke-jr> lfm: because someone gave it to them
355 2011-01-05 04:28:41 <lfm> ya well too late now
356 2011-01-05 04:28:49 <luke-jr> get one of them suicide bombers to bring in an EMP?
357 2011-01-05 04:28:58 <kartofeln> iran almost has nukes, probably from pakistan, which got it from.. where? India maybe?
358 2011-01-05 04:30:49 <luke-jr> soon I'll be all alone
359 2011-01-05 04:30:54 <kartofeln> I know, let's write a cool computer virus designed to disable their nuclear facilities!
360 2011-01-05 04:31:11 <kartofeln> oh wait.
361 2011-01-05 04:31:23 <luke-jr> disable or take over?
362 2011-01-05 04:31:25 <luke-jr> why not just have those same nukes explode?
363 2011-01-05 04:31:26 <luke-jr> save the expense of firing our own
364 2011-01-05 04:31:28 <kartofeln> google "stuxnet". it's a fun story.
365 2011-01-05 04:31:30 <luke-jr> will it put me on a FBI watch list?
366 2011-01-05 04:31:32 <kartofeln> you already are. don't sweat it.
367 2011-01-05 04:31:35 <luke-jr> :p
368 2011-01-05 04:31:36 <kiba> Asia is not as enthuastic about bitcoin
369 2011-01-05 04:31:38 <kiba> we need to fix that!
370 2011-01-05 04:31:40 <kartofeln> well, it certainly wouldn't be the first currency to be region-dependent..
371 2011-01-05 04:32:59 <kiba> kartofeln: we have penetrated pretty much all the developed western nations
372 2011-01-05 04:33:25 <lfm> and russia
373 2011-01-05 04:33:35 <kiba> yeah, Russia is the special one
374 2011-01-05 04:34:10 <kartofeln> "BitCoin: the white man's favorite virtual currency"
375 2011-01-05 04:34:40 <lfm> has anyone tried ip address mapping of bitcoin nodes?
376 2011-01-05 04:37:00 <kartofeln> is the only thing preventing Liberty Reserve from becoming the next e-gold that they don't have a US presence?
377 2011-01-05 04:37:54 <kiba> kartofeln: naw, Bitcoin, the Western currency
378 2011-01-05 04:38:16 <kartofeln> Mine is more transparently offensive though.
379 2011-01-05 04:38:31 <nanotube> lfm: yes, MT`AwAy has done that and put it on googlemaps somewhere
380 2011-01-05 04:38:45 <theymos> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Map
381 2011-01-05 04:39:35 <kiba> kartofeln: I am a westerner despite being born in Asia
382 2011-01-05 04:40:05 <kartofeln> I wasn't going for accuracy :'(
383 2011-01-05 04:40:05 <nanotube> theymos: ah nice :)
384 2011-01-05 04:40:20 <kartofeln> darn. that map shows a lot of asian presence actually.
385 2011-01-05 04:40:59 <nanotube> heh, mostly europe and usa, though.
386 2011-01-05 04:41:24 <kartofeln> yeah but definitely more than one lost Chinese soul.
387 2011-01-05 04:41:47 <nanotube> heh yea
388 2011-01-05 04:41:51 <kiba> you have to realize that it kinda basically reflect the connectivity of the world
389 2011-01-05 04:42:30 <nanotube> btw, if anyone wants to see a live streaming block count over irc... feel free to join #bitcoin-blockchain
390 2011-01-05 04:50:57 <lolcat> /join #bitcoin-blockchain
391 2011-01-05 04:51:16 <lolcat> Bwaah
392 2011-01-05 05:06:21 <kartofeln> oh. small world. the initial concept for bitcoin came from a certain Wei Dai, who's also apparently the author of crypto++
393 2011-01-05 05:08:41 <davux> does anyone have a French bank account where I could wire money and get bitcoins in exchange?
394 2011-01-05 05:09:09 <davux> (European is not enough, it needs to be French)
395 2011-01-05 05:34:37 <Lyspooner> theymos you around homey
396 2011-01-05 05:34:59 <theymos> Yes. I owe you some BTC!
397 2011-01-05 05:35:16 <Lyspooner> sorry, i've been away
398 2011-01-05 05:35:31 <Lyspooner> what are these things worth these days
399 2011-01-05 05:36:51 <nanotube> ;;bc,markets
400 2011-01-05 05:36:53 <gribble> bcLREUR: 0.17 (28.93 BTC) 0.22/0.254 | bcLRUSD: 0.3 (3.93 BTC) 0.292/0.29998 | bcmLRUSD: 0.26 (100 BTC) 0.28/0.305 | bcmPPUSD: 0.2951 (500 BTC) 0.2945/0.3 | bcmPXGAU: 0.0061 (300 BTC) 0.0046/0.0062 | btcexJPY: 2 (0.8 BTC) None/None | btcexRUB: 9 (0.11 BTC) None/None | btcexWMR: 8.8 (44.81 BTC) None/None | mtgoxUSD: 0.298953 (91.475 BTC) 0.290273/0.298953
401 2011-01-05 05:37:10 <nanotube> about .3usd
402 2011-01-05 05:39:42 <theymos> I did manage to get ahead when considering my other Bitcoin-related bets.
403 2011-01-05 05:39:44 <xelister> I wonder if price will go up from .3
404 2011-01-05 05:39:58 <theymos> So what's your address, Lyspooner?
405 2011-01-05 05:40:11 <Lyspooner> 1LiB9pMw1bNxxePix6khMfwVf56Z5qeHZd
406 2011-01-05 05:40:16 <nanotube> what bet did you guys have? the difficulty one?
407 2011-01-05 05:40:23 <Lyspooner> 10000 by jan1
408 2011-01-05 05:40:27 <nanotube> ah
409 2011-01-05 05:40:28 <nanotube> hehe ic
410 2011-01-05 05:40:32 <nanotube> way over that
411 2011-01-05 05:40:41 <lolcat> Will the new sandy bridge cpus be a lot bether at mining?
412 2011-01-05 05:40:57 <Lyspooner> i've been away from btc for a month.  what's new
413 2011-01-05 05:41:03 <nanotube> lolcat: still no match for a gpu i bet
414 2011-01-05 05:41:07 <theymos> Lyspooner: Sent. I was really off on that one...
415 2011-01-05 05:41:34 <gribble> List of bitcoin-accepting merchants: http://www.bitcoin.org/trade
416 2011-01-05 05:41:34 <nanotube> Lyspooner: i guess... check out the forums, and any new listings on ,,trade
417 2011-01-05 05:41:57 <Lyspooner> theymos, whatd you send
418 2011-01-05 05:42:33 <theymos> 75
419 2011-01-05 05:42:50 <Lyspooner> good man
420 2011-01-05 05:43:02 <Lyspooner> how do i rate you higher and all that
421 2011-01-05 05:43:23 <lolcat> nanotube: THey said they were bether at vector something
422 2011-01-05 05:43:30 <gribble> Guide to using the trust rating system: http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/OTC_Rating_System
423 2011-01-05 05:43:30 <nanotube> ;;whatis #bitcoin-otc wotguide
424 2011-01-05 05:43:33 <nanotube> Lyspooner: --^
425 2011-01-05 05:43:48 <nanotube> lolcat: mmm dunno. i'm just guessing really. ;)
426 2011-01-05 05:44:11 <kartofeln> lolcat, to give you an idea, my phenom quad core does about 4Mhash/s, my ati 5770 does about 150Mhash/s. it's almost 2 orders of magnitudes.
427 2011-01-05 05:44:53 <kartofeln> I'm guessing it would take something drastic for cpus to compete with gpus in pure number crunching.
428 2011-01-05 05:47:18 <lolcat> kartofeln: But it doesn't have vector stuff!
429 2011-01-05 05:48:01 <kartofeln> "When AVX instruction is used in conjunction with these improvements, it provides double peak FLOPS performance compared to using SSE4 instructions on CPUs."
430 2011-01-05 05:48:10 <davux> theymos: i have a suggestion for blockexplorer.com
431 2011-01-05 05:48:22 <kartofeln> if you believe that, and are willing to translate "double the FLOPS" into "double the hash/s", that's still pretty far off from GPU perf.
432 2011-01-05 05:48:39 <kartofeln> that's from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Bridge_%28microarchitecture%29
433 2011-01-05 05:48:46 <lolcat> Also the Sabdy Bridge has a built in GPU...
434 2011-01-05 05:48:53 <theymos> davux: What?
435 2011-01-05 05:48:54 <kartofeln> oh. well, that's different.
436 2011-01-05 05:49:23 <davux> theymos: you could provide an RSS/atom feed for payments made to an address
437 2011-01-05 05:50:42 <theymos> davux: I had considered that. Maybe email notifications, too. I'll do it eventually.
438 2011-01-05 05:51:34 <davux> i'm sure it would be a killer feature
439 2011-01-05 05:52:48 <theymos> Until I do RSS, you could watch http://blockexplorer.com/q/getreceivedbyaddress
440 2011-01-05 05:58:29 <Sami345> :(
441 2011-01-05 05:58:44 <Sami345> default client of Bitcoin doesn't care about bitorder :/
442 2011-01-05 05:59:46 <kartofeln> lolcat, apparently the sandy bridge GPU seems a little better than an ATI HD 5450 for gaming benchmark. if that's an indication of it's openCL capabilities, it's definitely better than a plain CPU, but still not awesome (HD 5450 gives about 12Mhash/s)
443 2011-01-05 06:05:56 <Diablo-D3> no kartofeln
444 2011-01-05 06:05:59 <Diablo-D3> its still a GMA part
445 2011-01-05 06:06:01 <Diablo-D3> no opencl to be found
446 2011-01-05 06:06:06 <Diablo-D3> dx9 only
447 2011-01-05 06:06:08 <kartofeln> grmf.. my wxWidgets 2.9 build didn't put wx/setup.h in my /usr/local/include/ directory. I swear I followed the instructions :'(
448 2011-01-05 06:06:16 <kartofeln> ah, well that's disappointing.
449 2011-01-05 06:06:23 <Diablo-D3> its intel
450 2011-01-05 06:06:25 <Diablo-D3> what do you epxect
451 2011-01-05 06:06:56 <kartofeln> I guess it's only meant to be a remedial GPU for people who don't want to splurge on a video card.
452 2011-01-05 06:07:26 <Diablo-D3> its barely enough to clear aero usage, really
453 2011-01-05 06:08:37 <kartofeln> isn't openCL just a driver repurposing of basic GPU capabilities though?
454 2011-01-05 06:08:50 <kartofeln> so in theory, wouldn't intel be able to write an openCL for their stuff if they cared enough?
455 2011-01-05 06:08:57 <kartofeln> *an openCL driver
456 2011-01-05 06:13:50 <kartofeln> for folks that build bitcoin on unix, does this error message look familiar at all: /usr/local/include/wx-2.9/wx/filefn.h:512: error: zero width for bit-field 'wxAssert_513::BadFileSizeType'
457 2011-01-05 06:14:37 <kartofeln> the Google says I should add a -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 somewhere to fix it, but it seems odd, hence checking here first.
458 2011-01-05 06:14:45 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: opencl is provided by a driver
459 2011-01-05 06:15:02 <Diablo-D3> GMA do not have the hardware internally to be a gpgpu
460 2011-01-05 06:15:07 <kartofeln> oh ok
461 2011-01-05 06:15:12 <Diablo-D3> no opencl, no direct compute, no cuda
462 2011-01-05 06:15:22 <Diablo-D3> and no dx10/11 either.
463 2011-01-05 06:17:26 <kartofeln> I'm reading something that claims the sandy bridge GMA can do dx 10.1
464 2011-01-05 06:17:44 <Diablo-D3> I think the GMA HD parts can do dx10 now, actually
465 2011-01-05 06:17:49 <Diablo-D3> but they barely hacked that on
466 2011-01-05 06:18:01 <kartofeln> so still no hope of openCL goodness?
467 2011-01-05 06:18:13 <Diablo-D3> not that Im aware of
468 2011-01-05 06:18:31 <Diablo-D3> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Comparison_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units#Specifications
469 2011-01-05 06:18:56 <kartofeln> I can't even tell what column in that list would indicate openCL support :(
470 2011-01-05 06:19:10 <Diablo-D3> none of them do
471 2011-01-05 06:19:16 <Diablo-D3> that should tell you something.
472 2011-01-05 06:19:32 <Diablo-D3> wait
473 2011-01-05 06:19:35 <Diablo-D3> HOLY SHIT
474 2011-01-05 06:19:41 <Diablo-D3> look at the HD 2k/3k line at the bottom
475 2011-01-05 06:19:43 <Diablo-D3> it does opencl
476 2011-01-05 06:19:43 <kartofeln> oh yeah
477 2011-01-05 06:19:46 <Diablo-D3> holy fucking shit
478 2011-01-05 06:19:47 <kartofeln> I grepped the page for it
479 2011-01-05 06:19:51 <Diablo-D3> _wow_
480 2011-01-05 06:20:00 <Diablo-D3> but its still not a dx11 part
481 2011-01-05 06:20:06 <kartofeln> yay progress.
482 2011-01-05 06:20:25 <kartofeln> still. that's probably enough to get about 10Mhash/s right there
483 2011-01-05 06:21:17 <Diablo-D3> yeah something like that
484 2011-01-05 06:22:10 <kartofeln> ok, I had to patch bitcoin/makefile.unix to add a -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 to the DEFS= line to get it to start building reasonably.
485 2011-01-05 06:22:28 <kartofeln> not sure if that's due to my system's wonkiness (possible) or if the makefile.unix needs some patching.
486 2011-01-05 06:22:42 <Diablo-D3> makefile.unix doesnt import the right cflags
487 2011-01-05 06:23:04 <Diablo-D3> all reasonable libs on linux that need shit provide the correct gcc flags
488 2011-01-05 06:23:14 <Diablo-D3> this includes wx
489 2011-01-05 06:23:47 <Diablo-D3> wx-config --cxxflags and wx-config --libs in the right places
490 2011-01-05 06:23:55 <kartofeln> yeah.. everything seems a wee bit hardcoded right now.
491 2011-01-05 06:24:12 <Diablo-D3> it should be executing those directly, really
492 2011-01-05 06:26:02 <kartofeln> w00t. linkage failed because it's using somethign too different from what wx-config --libs returns.
493 2011-01-05 06:26:36 <Diablo-D3> theres two lines in makefile.unix that are named like wx_flags and wx_libs
494 2011-01-05 06:26:52 <Diablo-D3> just put the appropriate wx-config output there
495 2011-01-05 06:26:53 <kartofeln> no wx_flags on mine..
496 2011-01-05 06:27:05 <Diablo-D3> theres two wx variables
497 2011-01-05 06:27:07 <kartofeln> I grabbed it from github though.. might be my problem.
498 2011-01-05 06:27:08 <Diablo-D3> its obvious which is which
499 2011-01-05 06:27:39 <kartofeln> I seriously only have WXLIBS = defined in there
500 2011-01-05 06:27:45 <Diablo-D3> huh.
501 2011-01-05 06:27:45 <kartofeln> let me check SVN.
502 2011-01-05 06:27:52 <Diablo-D3> maybe it changed and I didnt notice
503 2011-01-05 06:29:12 <kartofeln> so.. would it be horrible to update makefile.unix to actually call wx-config to populate those things?
504 2011-01-05 06:29:22 <Diablo-D3> nope
505 2011-01-05 06:29:25 <Diablo-D3> I did that once
506 2011-01-05 06:29:33 <Diablo-D3> remember to enclose those in ``
507 2011-01-05 06:29:38 <Diablo-D3> not '' not "" but ``
508 2011-01-05 06:29:52 <kartofeln> I mean, updating the main tree with it.
509 2011-01-05 06:30:13 <Diablo-D3> well, if you had repo access, sure
510 2011-01-05 06:30:15 <Diablo-D3> but no one does
511 2011-01-05 06:30:32 <kartofeln> lol
512 2011-01-05 06:30:37 <Diablo-D3> thats what the makefile should have used to begin with, btw
513 2011-01-05 06:30:40 <kartofeln> alright. I'm starting to grasp the problem.
514 2011-01-05 06:30:42 <Diablo-D3> thats what ALL makefiles essentially do
515 2011-01-05 06:33:14 <kartofeln> Well at least I've got stuff running from source now. that's happy.
516 2011-01-05 06:33:38 <kartofeln> thanks for the help.
517 2011-01-05 06:34:09 <kartofeln> there was a post on the forum about opening up the tree.. maybe I'll try to push that little patch back in there.
518 2011-01-05 06:35:36 <Diablo-D3> you could always send a patch to gavin
519 2011-01-05 06:35:43 <Diablo-D3> the github repo is his
520 2011-01-05 06:41:19 <lolcat> So the i7-2600K will be able to get 12mhash, in addition to some from the mid end ati card :D
521 2011-01-05 06:41:39 <Diablo-D3> thats... sad.
522 2011-01-05 06:42:00 <Diablo-D3> http://pastebin.com/AvymGnMJ
523 2011-01-05 06:42:51 <Diablo-D3> so, roughly....
524 2011-01-05 06:43:05 <Diablo-D3> a 5450
525 2011-01-05 06:43:28 <lolcat> I think I want a 5850
526 2011-01-05 06:43:35 <Diablo-D3> well
527 2011-01-05 06:44:17 <Diablo-D3> you want a { 6850, 6870, 5850, 5870, 6950, 6970, 5970, 6990 }
528 2011-01-05 06:44:35 <Diablo-D3> combined dollar/watt efficiency, from lowest to highest
529 2011-01-05 06:44:39 <Diablo-D3> of all the cards worth buying
530 2011-01-05 06:44:48 <lolcat> But watts are free
531 2011-01-05 06:44:56 <Diablo-D3> only if you're not paying the power bill.
532 2011-01-05 06:45:13 <lolcat> I pay the same price if I use 2000watt or 5000
533 2011-01-05 06:45:20 <lolcat> Fixed rate
534 2011-01-05 06:45:27 <Diablo-D3> then you're not paying the power bill.
535 2011-01-05 06:45:37 <Diablo-D3> at that rate, you'd just go directly for 5970s
536 2011-01-05 06:46:10 <kartofeln> I do wonder if I'm shortening the life of my video card by keeping it at a steady 76`c
537 2011-01-05 06:46:19 <Diablo-D3> 76? no.
538 2011-01-05 06:46:22 <Diablo-D3> try to keep it below 80
539 2011-01-05 06:46:22 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, have you noticed that Bitcoin doesn't care about byte order :(
540 2011-01-05 06:46:33 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: its not endian aware, yes
541 2011-01-05 06:46:41 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: notice my miner handles bullshit there.
542 2011-01-05 06:46:47 <Sami345> that's bad
543 2011-01-05 06:46:48 <Diablo-D3> it endian flips the getwork shit
544 2011-01-05 06:47:03 <Diablo-D3> technically I should add a flag asking what the host's endian is
545 2011-01-05 06:47:25 <Diablo-D3> lolcat: $500 some
546 2011-01-05 06:47:26 <Sami345> you just think that the host is same as your computer=
547 2011-01-05 06:47:40 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: no
548 2011-01-05 06:47:40 <Sami345> *?
549 2011-01-05 06:47:46 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: mine assumes it is always little endian
550 2011-01-05 06:47:50 <Sami345> oh ok
551 2011-01-05 06:47:56 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: java's parser for this always assumes its big endian
552 2011-01-05 06:48:00 <Diablo-D3> so I always flip
553 2011-01-05 06:48:15 <Diablo-D3> and since its human readable text, it always SHOULD be big endian
554 2011-01-05 06:48:34 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: btw, this ONLY applies to the host
555 2011-01-05 06:48:39 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt matter what my miner is ran on
556 2011-01-05 06:48:46 <Diablo-D3> since java always does shit in a big endian way
557 2011-01-05 06:49:00 <Diablo-D3> so, my miner could be on mips, a sparc, ppc
558 2011-01-05 06:49:04 <Diablo-D3> and it wouldnt matter
559 2011-01-05 06:49:10 <lolcat> My shop doesn't have the 5970
560 2011-01-05 06:49:21 <Diablo-D3> lolcat: everyone is running out of stock
561 2011-01-05 06:49:25 <Sami345> lolcat, you shops?
562 2011-01-05 06:49:26 <Diablo-D3> lolcat: and 6990 isnt out yet
563 2011-01-05 06:49:32 <Sami345> internet is full of shops
564 2011-01-05 06:49:35 <xelister> lolcat: what country ;)
565 2011-01-05 06:49:55 <Diablo-D3> lolcat: just take the list I put above, and see what you can afford
566 2011-01-05 06:49:58 <lolcat> It does however have the 5850 and the 6870
567 2011-01-05 06:50:05 <Diablo-D3> lolcat: start from the right side and go down
568 2011-01-05 06:50:07 <xelister> Diablo-D3: yes,  there are so many Radeon's drivers of OpenCL portedt do sparc
569 2011-01-05 06:50:22 <lolcat> Diablo-D3: 6879 isnt that high in price
570 2011-01-05 06:50:44 <Diablo-D3> 6870 has the miner performance of a 5850, but the 3D performance of a 5870
571 2011-01-05 06:50:45 <Diablo-D3> give or take
572 2011-01-05 06:51:12 <lolcat> Most of the stuff I watch is 2D anyways
573 2011-01-05 06:51:12 <xelister> 5970 are the gold so far
574 2011-01-05 06:51:26 <Diablo-D3> if I was mining only, I'd take the 5850
575 2011-01-05 06:51:30 <Diablo-D3> { 6850, 6870, 5850, 5870, 6950, 6970, 5970, 6990 }
576 2011-01-05 06:51:34 <Diablo-D3> just see what you can afford.
577 2011-01-05 06:51:37 <lolcat> But I have to wait to buy the computer to get the Sandy Bridge cpus
578 2011-01-05 06:51:43 <Diablo-D3> heh
579 2011-01-05 06:51:46 <Diablo-D3> why bother buying intel?
580 2011-01-05 06:51:47 <Sami345> lolcat, it also depents how it rendered
581 2011-01-05 06:51:48 <Diablo-D3> intel is dead.
582 2011-01-05 06:51:52 <Diablo-D3> buy amd.
583 2011-01-05 06:51:53 <lolcat> I like intel
584 2011-01-05 06:51:55 <Diablo-D3> cheaper, faster.
585 2011-01-05 06:52:00 <Diablo-D3> lolcat: you like wasting money?
586 2011-01-05 06:52:05 <Diablo-D3> nothing intel can do at this point can beat AMD
587 2011-01-05 06:52:06 <lolcat> I don't care for money
588 2011-01-05 06:52:15 <kartofeln> I like AMD. it keeps my nice and warm in winter.
589 2011-01-05 06:52:27 <Sami345> If I had unlimited money, I'd buy NVidia
590 2011-01-05 06:52:35 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: no you wouldnt
591 2011-01-05 06:52:36 <Sami345> but for cheap, AMD
592 2011-01-05 06:52:40 <Diablo-D3> you'd buy all the 5970s you could find
593 2011-01-05 06:52:51 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, Phys-X :/
594 2011-01-05 06:52:52 <lolcat> I don't know, but my first box was a Pentium 133mhz with windows 95
595 2011-01-05 06:53:05 <lolcat> It is some nostalgia about it
596 2011-01-05 06:53:27 <Sami345> lolcat, same here :)
597 2011-01-05 06:53:43 <Sami345> I got my first computer 2003
598 2011-01-05 06:53:49 <ArtForz> sorry, but intels low-end offerings suck
599 2011-01-05 06:54:00 <lolcat> Who said low end?
600 2011-01-05 06:54:08 <lolcat> I want the i7-2600K
601 2011-01-05 06:54:12 <ArtForz> who needs a hexcore in a miner box?
602 2011-01-05 06:54:24 <lolcat> It is a fileserver that will also mine
603 2011-01-05 06:54:37 <ArtForz> and fileservers need CPU nowadays?
604 2011-01-05 06:54:57 <lolcat> I don't know, I like computers, money will be worthless some day
605 2011-01-05 06:54:58 <Sami345> more like good connection and fast hard drive
606 2011-01-05 06:55:08 <lolcat> Why not entertain myself with a sweet computer?
607 2011-01-05 06:55:23 <ArtForz> with a A64-X2 4800+ and AES256 encrypted HDs my fileserver happily does 80MB/s
608 2011-01-05 06:55:35 <Sami345> lolcat, so you want processor to do some idling? :d
609 2011-01-05 06:55:38 <lolcat> I have a gigabit network at home
610 2011-01-05 06:55:59 <ArtForz> 80MB/s, not Mbit
611 2011-01-05 06:55:59 <lolcat> A D-Link DGS-1224t if remember correctly
612 2011-01-05 06:56:00 <Sami345> lolcat, wtf O.o
613 2011-01-05 06:56:13 <lolcat> 24 ports in a tiny place
614 2011-01-05 06:56:31 <Diablo-D3> [02:52:51] <Sami345> Diablo-D3, Phys-X :/
615 2011-01-05 06:56:31 <lolcat> Couldn't even fit that many computers there xD
616 2011-01-05 06:56:34 <Diablo-D3> physx is software
617 2011-01-05 06:56:39 <Diablo-D3> and people hacked it to run on amd
618 2011-01-05 06:56:43 <Diablo-D3> and no game worth playing uses it
619 2011-01-05 06:56:50 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, give me link then
620 2011-01-05 06:56:54 <Sami345> I haven't find any
621 2011-01-05 06:57:00 <Diablo-D3> because no one uses it.
622 2011-01-05 06:57:02 <Diablo-D3> seriously.
623 2011-01-05 06:57:10 <ArtForz> mainly because physx is a marketing gimmick by nvidia
624 2011-01-05 06:57:20 <Diablo-D3> it has nothing to do with physics
625 2011-01-05 06:57:22 <Sami345> Crazy Machines 2 uses
626 2011-01-05 06:57:24 <Diablo-D3> and all to do with fancy gfx
627 2011-01-05 06:57:44 <Diablo-D3> like, realtime rendered flags flying about in the air
628 2011-01-05 06:57:49 <lolcat> Any new bitcoin services?
629 2011-01-05 06:57:55 <Diablo-D3> or colored sparks (instead of white ones)
630 2011-01-05 06:57:57 <Diablo-D3> or other stupid shit
631 2011-01-05 06:58:15 <ArtForz> yup, pretty much anyone using a physics engine for anything not purely eye-candy uses something else
632 2011-01-05 06:58:49 <Sami345> is there many 3D-physic engines?
633 2011-01-05 06:58:53 <Diablo-D3> yes
634 2011-01-05 06:58:55 <Diablo-D3> havok for one
635 2011-01-05 06:58:58 <Diablo-D3> which EVERYONE uses
636 2011-01-05 06:59:09 <Diablo-D3> its hard to find a game that isnt using havok
637 2011-01-05 06:59:10 <ArtForz> iirc about every major game engine has one nowadays
638 2011-01-05 07:00:39 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, does Source Engine use it? :P
639 2011-01-05 07:00:55 <Sami345> there are many games using Source Engine
640 2011-01-05 07:01:02 <Diablo-D3> source uses havok iirc
641 2011-01-05 07:01:17 <ArtForz> yup
642 2011-01-05 07:01:20 <ArtForz> custom havok
643 2011-01-05 07:01:29 <Sami345> iirc? in Internet Relay Chat? :D
644 2011-01-05 07:01:37 <Diablo-D3> if I remember correctly
645 2011-01-05 07:03:19 <ArtForz> btw, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison
646 2011-01-05 07:03:46 <Diablo-D3> ahh, it moved to the wiki?
647 2011-01-05 07:03:58 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: btw, those new sandy vagina GMAs?
648 2011-01-05 07:03:59 <ArtForz> yeah, someone wikified my old TSV
649 2011-01-05 07:04:01 <Diablo-D3> they do opencl.
650 2011-01-05 07:04:11 <ArtForz> slooowly
651 2011-01-05 07:04:21 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but at least THEY FINALLY FUCKING DO IT
652 2011-01-05 07:04:30 <Diablo-D3> it took them 5 fucking years to join the modern world
653 2011-01-05 07:04:49 <ArtForz> and it's probably faster to use AMDs OCL drivers and run your OCL on the CPU ;)
654 2011-01-05 07:05:12 <Diablo-D3> sadly, yes
655 2011-01-05 07:05:15 <ArtForz> GMAs shaders are so slow it's not even funny
656 2011-01-05 07:05:54 <ArtForz> 8 ALUs at 500MHz or something equally laughable
657 2011-01-05 07:07:41 <Diablo-D3> well
658 2011-01-05 07:07:45 <Diablo-D3> they can decode blurays now
659 2011-01-05 07:07:49 <Diablo-D3> problem is
660 2011-01-05 07:07:55 <Diablo-D3> the fucking atoms use gmas THAT STILL FUCKING CANT
661 2011-01-05 07:08:15 <ArtForz> = about on-par with a GF6600 or a X800
662 2011-01-05 07:08:40 <Diablo-D3> or doing it by hand
663 2011-01-05 07:08:44 <Diablo-D3> srsly
664 2011-01-05 07:09:07 <ArtForz> which were mid-range GPUs... about 6 years ago
665 2011-01-05 07:10:19 <ArtForz> btw, did atom finally catch up to P3 ? *g*
666 2011-01-05 07:10:40 <Diablo-D3> ARMs did >_>
667 2011-01-05 07:11:57 <Diablo-D3> heehhhh
668 2011-01-05 07:12:20 <Diablo-D3> I just noticed the pool has new stats
669 2011-01-05 07:12:58 <Diablo-D3> it says Im doing about 81.5 mhash
670 2011-01-05 07:13:55 <kartofeln> if you're using bitcoin.cz's pool, their mhash stats are violently wrong at times.
671 2011-01-05 07:14:07 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: he just added them
672 2011-01-05 07:14:46 <kartofeln> I consistently do 148 mhash/s, and I've seen it listed as high as 200 on his site..
673 2011-01-05 07:15:00 <Diablo-D3> like I said, he just added them
674 2011-01-05 07:15:34 <Diablo-D3> I wonder how hes going to deal with when I turn my miner off
675 2011-01-05 07:15:38 <Diablo-D3> my mhash/s better not drop
676 2011-01-05 07:16:20 <Diablo-D3> his math seems to be about 50 every half hour per 100mhash
677 2011-01-05 07:16:25 <Diablo-D3> it should be every 36 minutes
678 2011-01-05 07:17:07 <kiba> hmm
679 2011-01-05 07:17:20 <kiba> LWN seems to maintain an awfully high content to noise ratio
680 2011-01-05 07:18:43 <Diablo-D3> it always has
681 2011-01-05 07:18:47 <Diablo-D3> but the content is really boring
682 2011-01-05 07:18:47 <kartofeln> dunno.. my mhash started showing really low, and slowly climbed to a correct level, except for the occasional wild fluctuation.
683 2011-01-05 07:19:29 <kiba> Diablo-D3: not your cup of tea, eh
684 2011-01-05 07:19:41 <kiba> MT`AwAy: you're neglecting your interview questions again
685 2011-01-05 07:19:51 <MT`AwAy> oooops
686 2011-01-05 07:20:45 <Diablo-D3> kiba: I develop software, I dont masturbate over the next version of linux
687 2011-01-05 07:20:51 <Diablo-D3> and you're talking to someone that runs BFS, too
688 2011-01-05 07:21:29 <kiba> BFS?
689 2011-01-05 07:21:41 <Diablo-D3> con's scheduler
690 2011-01-05 07:21:42 <kartofeln> I'm guessing it's not benign fasciculation syndrome.
691 2011-01-05 07:22:16 <kartofeln> ah.. I think one of the custom android distro was using that briefly.
692 2011-01-05 07:22:30 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: yes they were
693 2011-01-05 07:22:37 <Diablo-D3> and they quit using it because they're morons
694 2011-01-05 07:23:00 <kartofeln> I was running a CM build with it, and frankly couldn't tell the difference in day to day operations.
695 2011-01-05 07:23:41 <kartofeln> but yeah, it seemed like a good match for mobile devices.
696 2011-01-05 07:23:49 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: your kernel was probably setup wrong
697 2011-01-05 07:24:11 <kartofeln> very possible.
698 2011-01-05 07:24:19 <Diablo-D3> if you're not running a 1000hz kernel with preempt on full (not off, not voluntary) you wont see anything
699 2011-01-05 07:24:27 <Diablo-D3> your latency is already too high
700 2011-01-05 07:24:57 <Diablo-D3> now, if you're playing video games, using jack, or have a very high load server, you'll see a difference
701 2011-01-05 07:28:25 <mizerydearia> Hmm, there are some people in #bitcoin-discussion that aren't in here.  Although there are also a lot let users in the other channel.  I notice a lot of nondev discussion takes place here.  Will there be a kind of segregation in the near future perhaps?
702 2011-01-05 07:32:00 <kiba> the developer don't use this channel to discuss stuff, mizerydearia
703 2011-01-05 07:32:03 <kiba> as far as I know
704 2011-01-05 07:35:10 <mizerydearia> kiba, There is more than simply "the developer."  Anyone can develop and there are several notable members of the community that have "developed" and are continuing to contribute towards the Bitcoin software.  Additionally they use this channel to discuss stuff.
705 2011-01-05 07:35:59 <kiba> they don't discuss development of bitcoin stuff
706 2011-01-05 07:35:59 <mizerydearia> It may be useful to distinguish useful developmental related content from unimportant useless banter.
707 2011-01-05 07:36:02 <kiba> they discuss other stuff
708 2011-01-05 07:36:42 <mizerydearia> If you check gavin's latest comments, that is one example.
709 2011-01-05 07:38:52 <kiba> someday....the largest thread will NOT be about mining
710 2011-01-05 07:39:41 <theymos> This channel has always been used to discuss all things related strongly to Bitcoin. I don't find it disruptive.
711 2011-01-05 07:39:49 <kiba> hmm
712 2011-01-05 07:39:51 <kiba> Nope.
713 2011-01-05 07:40:06 <kiba> no evidence to support mizerydearia's assertion
714 2011-01-05 08:43:16 <kartofeln> is there already a mechanism that allows to send bitcoins over email?
715 2011-01-05 08:44:16 <Diablo-D3> no
716 2011-01-05 08:44:19 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt make sense to
717 2011-01-05 08:44:51 <kartofeln> "Hi bob, here's this one-time use code that you can redeem for 2 BTC. don't spend it all at once :) "
718 2011-01-05 08:44:57 <kartofeln> I don't know. I could see the use-case.
719 2011-01-05 08:45:09 <Diablo-D3> this has already been discussed in depth
720 2011-01-05 08:45:09 <sipa> with a centralized server that's possible
721 2011-01-05 08:45:14 <sipa> and that already exists
722 2011-01-05 08:45:22 <kartofeln> centralized servers make bitcoins sad though.
723 2011-01-05 08:45:23 <Diablo-D3> yeah, if you have a centralized service who holds onto your coins to do it, great
724 2011-01-05 08:45:24 <Diablo-D3> it works
725 2011-01-05 08:45:35 <sipa> but you need to trust it both
726 2011-01-05 08:45:51 <Diablo-D3> but you cant remove the coins from the chain and hand them to a different user in any useful sense
727 2011-01-05 08:45:55 <kartofeln> I was hoping we had some magic crypto dust to do that too.
728 2011-01-05 08:46:10 <Diablo-D3> you'd basically have to create a single use address in a single use wallet.dat, and then hand them the wallet.dat
729 2011-01-05 08:46:31 <Diablo-D3> which is absurd
730 2011-01-05 08:46:51 <kartofeln> that seems fairly close to the concept of a little cash card.
731 2011-01-05 08:46:55 <theymos> You can make a transaction redeemable with a short code and then send them the code. The sender can redeem the code first, of course.
732 2011-01-05 08:47:19 <sipa> it's not - it's a very quick way of sending money, and you can do it over any medium, not just the bitcoin network
733 2011-01-05 08:47:35 <sipa> but there is no way the reciever can know the money wasn't spent yet by the sender
734 2011-01-05 08:47:42 <sipa> except by using the network :)
735 2011-01-05 08:47:47 <kartofeln> right. until they try to get the money.
736 2011-01-05 08:47:55 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: to do this, you'd need another system
737 2011-01-05 08:47:59 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt belong in bitcoin itself
738 2011-01-05 08:48:26 <kartofeln> fair enough.. the challenge is, can it be a serverless system.
739 2011-01-05 08:49:00 <sipa> the problem is: you need to send something that represents "money redeemable by one who has this piece of data"
740 2011-01-05 08:49:07 <kartofeln> why do you say that attaching a wallet.dat file to an email is absurb though?
741 2011-01-05 08:49:16 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: the client doesnt support that
742 2011-01-05 08:49:26 <Diablo-D3> and you'd need two clients to generate the wallet.dat to begin with
743 2011-01-05 08:49:30 <Diablo-D3> and its just insane
744 2011-01-05 08:49:31 <sipa> which makes it far from absurd - only not yet implemented
745 2011-01-05 08:49:32 <kartofeln> ah.. you'd need a tool to merge the two wallet.dat and stuff.
746 2011-01-05 08:49:34 <kartofeln> ok
747 2011-01-05 08:49:49 <Diablo-D3> I'd rather see a third party authority handle this
748 2011-01-05 08:50:13 <sipa> i would however not vote for a wallet.dat file, but a way to export/import a keypair to/from a human-readable file
749 2011-01-05 08:50:24 <kartofeln> is it worth losing the "there's no central authority" property for this use case, though?
750 2011-01-05 08:50:39 <Diablo-D3> sipa: well, you'd export everything belonging to the transaction and the address from the wallet.dat
751 2011-01-05 08:50:51 <kartofeln> sipa: right. if there's no client support for any of it, we might as well go for something convenient.
752 2011-01-05 08:50:55 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: not if you want a immediately observable trust.
753 2011-01-05 08:51:15 <Diablo-D3> sipa: you'd end up with, say, 2k worth of shit
754 2011-01-05 08:51:17 <Diablo-D3> maybe 1
755 2011-01-05 08:51:25 <ArtForz> why?
756 2011-01-05 08:51:25 <Diablo-D3> you need the address keys and the transaction keys.
757 2011-01-05 08:51:38 <kartofeln> sounds like one of those GPG blocks.
758 2011-01-05 08:51:44 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: yeah basically.
759 2011-01-05 08:51:46 <ArtForz> just send the secret of the private key
760 2011-01-05 08:51:53 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: hrrm.
761 2011-01-05 08:51:57 <Diablo-D3> maybe.
762 2011-01-05 08:52:01 <ArtForz> = 256 bits
763 2011-01-05 08:52:09 <Diablo-D3> the codes still couldnt be immediately available though
764 2011-01-05 08:52:19 <Diablo-D3> you have to send the coins to the address and then have th enetwork accept them
765 2011-01-05 08:52:23 <ArtForz> yep
766 2011-01-05 08:52:27 <ArtForz> and maybe a transaction hash so the receiver doesnt have to scan the whole chain
767 2011-01-05 08:52:28 <Diablo-D3> so thered still be a half hour before your magic code works
768 2011-01-05 08:52:28 <sipa> true
769 2011-01-05 08:52:33 <ArtForz> yep
770 2011-01-05 08:52:35 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: no, make it short.
771 2011-01-05 08:52:51 <Diablo-D3> and the reciever needs the whole chain anyhow to verify the transaction
772 2011-01-05 08:53:01 <ArtForz> true
773 2011-01-05 08:53:10 <Diablo-D3> the only additional information I'd like to see is WHATS in the fake wallet.dat
774 2011-01-05 08:53:16 <Diablo-D3> ie, amount, etc
775 2011-01-05 08:53:24 <ArtForz> the secret alone is something like 64 chars base64
776 2011-01-05 08:53:30 <sipa> it could include the lowest block number in which a transaction to that address was done
777 2011-01-05 08:53:35 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah
778 2011-01-05 08:53:42 <sipa> so it would only need to scan everything after that block
779 2011-01-05 08:53:43 <Diablo-D3> it'd be 2x a bitcoin address
780 2011-01-05 08:53:50 <Diablo-D3> sipa: no
781 2011-01-05 08:53:58 <Diablo-D3> sipa: because it can miss the chain and try again
782 2011-01-05 08:54:50 <ArtForz> yeah, you could put some informational info, like amount or whatever, but the reciver has to check the block chain and spend that output anyways to claim it
783 2011-01-05 08:54:50 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: actually, wouldnt it also need the address?
784 2011-01-05 08:55:05 <ArtForz> address is derived from pubkey is derived from privkey is derived from secret
785 2011-01-05 08:55:19 <kartofeln> is there any kind of CRC baked in a bitcoin address, to detect typos and such?
786 2011-01-05 08:55:22 <ArtForz> yes
787 2011-01-05 08:55:30 <Diablo-D3> so knowing the secret gives you the address?
788 2011-01-05 08:55:33 <ArtForz> yep
789 2011-01-05 08:55:39 <Diablo-D3> k
790 2011-01-05 08:55:50 <Diablo-D3> so it only needs the address and the intended amount
791 2011-01-05 08:55:55 <ArtForz> bitcoin address contains a sha256 truncated to 32 bits as checksum
792 2011-01-05 08:56:04 <kartofeln> cool
793 2011-01-05 08:56:16 <Diablo-D3> heh good ole sha256
794 2011-01-05 08:56:21 <ArtForz> satoshi really likes sha256 :P
795 2011-01-05 08:56:28 <Diablo-D3> well, its fucking useful
796 2011-01-05 08:56:29 <kartofeln> when in doubt, hash it some more!
797 2011-01-05 08:56:38 <Diablo-D3> but Im not using it in my stuff unless I need an always repeatable hash
798 2011-01-05 08:56:45 <ArtForz> oh yeah, and we use double-sha256 pretty much everywhere
799 2011-01-05 08:56:55 <Diablo-D3> well, double sha256 builds other shit
800 2011-01-05 08:57:05 <Diablo-D3> its not a unique trick by any means
801 2011-01-05 08:57:10 <kartofeln> why is that, btw? is that out of worry that sha-256 might get broken?
802 2011-01-05 08:57:28 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: no, it forms the basis of many message verification systems
803 2011-01-05 08:57:28 <theymos> SHA-256 is even used for network checksums... total overkill.
804 2011-01-05 08:57:34 <ArtForz> kinda, it's a often-seen best practice
805 2011-01-05 08:57:49 <ArtForz> makes some classes of attack a LOT harder
806 2011-01-05 08:57:56 <Diablo-D3> yeah
807 2011-01-05 08:58:02 <Diablo-D3> and you're not limited to twice
808 2011-01-05 08:58:08 <ArtForz> PBKDF anyone?
809 2011-01-05 08:58:17 <Diablo-D3> theres other systems that use weaker hashes 1000 times in a row
810 2011-01-05 08:58:25 <Diablo-D3> just to make key generation absurdly difficult
811 2011-01-05 08:58:48 <ArtForz> = PBKDF, usually 1000-10000 times sha1
812 2011-01-05 08:58:53 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah
813 2011-01-05 08:58:58 <Diablo-D3> but thats not unqiue
814 2011-01-05 08:59:21 <Diablo-D3> but its _ALMOST_ just a random seed
815 2011-01-05 08:59:21 <slush> jgarzik: "max scan time" --> I think it is more user-friendly than 'max nonce'. And even more exact, because the time is what matters.
816 2011-01-05 08:59:32 <Diablo-D3> the seed part being how many times you run the hash
817 2011-01-05 08:59:48 <kartofeln> hmm.. 1e5 hash runs.. that starts to sound like a way to discourage brute force cracking.
818 2011-01-05 08:59:51 <Diablo-D3> so if you dont know the number nor the salt
819 2011-01-05 08:59:54 <Diablo-D3> you are fucked
820 2011-01-05 08:59:59 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: it is
821 2011-01-05 09:00:15 <Diablo-D3> infact, theres one that does EC shit that way
822 2011-01-05 09:00:41 <Diablo-D3> not only is it an unusual crypto, its mathematically difficult
823 2011-01-05 09:01:08 <Diablo-D3> so you crypt, say, your stream cypher key with it, and then do your actual payload with the stream cypher
824 2011-01-05 09:03:22 <Diablo-D3> or produce your stream cypher key with it and input a plaintext password into the blender
825 2011-01-05 09:03:39 <Diablo-D3> a few backup systems do it that way
826 2011-01-05 09:04:07 <kartofeln> yeah, I'm more used to the former approach.
827 2011-01-05 09:04:53 <Diablo-D3> AES cant be brute forced realistically, and if you have to brute force the key just to produce one key attempt, fuck it
828 2011-01-05 09:05:33 <Diablo-D3> (then again, you may not NEED the key if you want the data and no further data)
829 2011-01-05 09:05:50 <Diablo-D3> depends if you have the payload you want already or not
830 2011-01-05 09:06:20 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: encryption is all about fucking people over
831 2011-01-05 09:06:32 <Diablo-D3> its never perfect, it wont last forever
832 2011-01-05 09:06:34 <Diablo-D3> but it makes it harder.
833 2011-01-05 09:06:44 <kartofeln> yeah..
834 2011-01-05 09:07:33 <kartofeln> I mostly like that there's enough aspects to consider when using it that almost every implementation ends up getting something wrong.
835 2011-01-05 09:08:25 <kartofeln> although I suppose that's getting less common nowadays.
836 2011-01-05 09:10:34 <Diablo-D3> http://armorgames.com/play/7446/kolm
837 2011-01-05 09:10:36 <Diablo-D3> wtf
838 2011-01-05 09:11:36 <kartofeln> needs moar blur.
839 2011-01-05 09:13:08 <kartofeln> n/m. game looked better blurry.
840 2011-01-05 09:13:56 <theymos> I enjoyed KOLM. It has a big, interesting environment and good platforming.
841 2011-01-05 09:14:21 <kartofeln> wait, there's some subtle 3d stuff going on here.
842 2011-01-05 09:14:29 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: yes
843 2011-01-05 09:18:41 <Pegasus-Rider> Hello. Would you please tell if it's technically possible to cache calculated hashes so that a computing node need not have network connection?
844 2011-01-05 09:19:29 <theymos> Several people on #bitcoin-discussion already told you that it's not...
845 2011-01-05 09:40:26 <Pegasus-Rider> BTW, is there some way of making use of huge (16+ GB) amount of RAM for Bitcoin?
846 2011-01-05 09:41:09 <theymos> Bitcoin doesn't need much RAM.
847 2011-01-05 09:44:36 <sipa> why do you want it to use much ram?
848 2011-01-05 09:47:23 <Pegasus-Rider> Because I can get it for peanuts :-)
849 2011-01-05 09:53:38 <Sami345> Pegasus-Rider, no without huge amount of processor power too, I mean like super computer amount :D
850 2011-01-05 09:54:04 <Sami345> then you could  possible need 16 GB of RAM for computing :D
851 2011-01-05 09:56:14 <bd_> in the future, if transaction rates go up a _lot_, then keeping the database cached may become necessary. Then, and only then, will 16GB of RAM become necessary
852 2011-01-05 09:57:15 <Pegasus-Rider> I don't mean a requirement, but a performance boost :-)
853 2011-01-05 09:58:21 <Pegasus-Rider> Anyway, I bet we'll see tenfold increase in transaction rates in a couple of years
854 2011-01-05 09:58:32 <sipa> maybe
855 2011-01-05 09:58:34 <sipa> maybe not
856 2011-01-05 10:02:37 <Diablo-D3> fffffff
857 2011-01-05 10:05:45 <Pegasus-Rider> Would you like a wager? :-)
858 2011-01-05 10:10:15 <Diablo-D3> fffffffffffffffffff
859 2011-01-05 10:10:19 <Diablo-D3> lol my sore is negative
860 2011-01-05 10:10:22 <Diablo-D3> *score
861 2011-01-05 10:10:23 <Diablo-D3> oh well
862 2011-01-05 10:14:04 <dsg> Pegasus-Rider: Just make a ramdisk and mount on ~/.bitcoin if you really want to. But you won't see any real benefit.
863 2011-01-05 10:15:28 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, where?
864 2011-01-05 10:16:35 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: that game
865 2011-01-05 10:16:40 <Diablo-D3> http://armorgames.com/play/7446/kolm
866 2011-01-05 10:30:48 <Diablo-D3> end message == bullshit
867 2011-01-05 10:33:17 <theymos> Did you notice that the end message explains the title of the game?
868 2011-01-05 10:35:06 <Diablo-D3> theymos: yes
869 2011-01-05 12:02:37 <devon_hillard> are there CUDA miners so far?
870 2011-01-05 12:10:39 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: yes, but its pointless
871 2011-01-05 12:10:41 <Diablo-D3> nvidia hardware sucks
872 2011-01-05 12:25:25 <UukGoblin> yeah
873 2011-01-05 12:25:36 <UukGoblin> I started to write one but gave up, it /is/ pointless
874 2011-01-05 12:25:42 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: do you have any link for a good attempt so far?
875 2011-01-05 12:26:09 <UukGoblin> opencl ones should work on nvidia hardware with recent drivers
876 2011-01-05 12:29:36 <sipa> the coinbase of a transaction is (apart from the bits in it?) fully random?
877 2011-01-05 12:29:41 <sipa> s/random/arbitrary/
878 2011-01-05 12:30:03 <sipa> as in: no restrictions on length, or particular meaning of certain byte positions in it
879 2011-01-05 12:39:00 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: someone already wrote one
880 2011-01-05 12:39:02 <Diablo-D3> but like
881 2011-01-05 12:39:09 <Diablo-D3> it hasnt been updated in aehile
882 2011-01-05 14:13:07 <devon_hillard> Shares contributed in current round: 53820, Current round duration: 8:24:53
883 2011-01-05 14:13:29 <devon_hillard> and with the 7.6Ghashes/s
884 2011-01-05 14:14:12 <Diablo-D3> yeah, it seems we're stuck on hard to find block
885 2011-01-05 14:14:20 <devon_hillard> ;;bc,calc 7600000
886 2011-01-05 14:14:39 <sipa> each potential block is equally likely :)
887 2011-01-05 14:15:02 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yeah, but due to the randomness, you get deserts
888 2011-01-05 14:15:06 <Diablo-D3> no block in sight
889 2011-01-05 14:15:17 <Diablo-D3> also, lol, I have 507 shares waiting
890 2011-01-05 14:15:24 <sipa> we're just accidentally all looking in the wrong places
891 2011-01-05 14:15:30 <Diablo-D3> exactlu
892 2011-01-05 14:15:33 <Diablo-D3> its ACTUALLY random
893 2011-01-05 14:15:37 <Diablo-D3> instead of smoothly random
894 2011-01-05 14:15:39 <ArtForz> you get desserts?
895 2011-01-05 14:15:49 <Diablo-D3> hurr
896 2011-01-05 14:15:54 <devon_hillard> come on people, overclock your card 1% more, we can make it :)
897 2011-01-05 14:15:58 <ArtForz> there will be cake!
898 2011-01-05 14:16:18 <devon_hillard> it's winter, so cooling is easy
899 2011-01-05 14:16:35 <ArtForz> if cooling is easy, you dont have enough GPUs
900 2011-01-05 14:16:48 <sipa> ;;bc,diff
901 2011-01-05 14:16:57 <devon_hillard> that's true, I have yet to replace my radiator with a GPU stack
902 2011-01-05 14:18:23 <sipa> only 3.7% chance that it takes this long at 7.6GH/s
903 2011-01-05 14:18:28 <ArtForz> damn, I'm a tab hoarder
904 2011-01-05 14:19:08 <ArtForz> ff using 7.3G
905 2011-01-05 14:21:00 <ArtForz> ~400 tabs total
906 2011-01-05 14:21:01 <slush> sipa: what's the probability that we find a block in 03:44 ? :)
907 2011-01-05 14:21:31 <ArtForz> not 4'33" ?
908 2011-01-05 14:22:01 <slush> yes, 3 minutes and 44 sec
909 2011-01-05 14:22:34 <sipa> slush: 2.4%
910 2011-01-05 14:22:49 <sipa> (that's for finding one in 3'44" or less)
911 2011-01-05 14:23:34 <ArtForz> exactly one or one or more?
912 2011-01-05 14:23:39 <genjix> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de6YDJvYr_4
913 2011-01-05 14:23:44 <ArtForz> oh... 3'44 or less
914 2011-01-05 14:23:47 <genjix> maybe one of you will enjoy my app
915 2011-01-05 14:24:22 <sipa> ArtForz: actually that the time between two successive blocks is less than 3'44"
916 2011-01-05 14:26:21 <sipa> which is equivalent to finding at least one block in exactly 3'44"
917 2011-01-05 14:26:39 <ArtForz> yep
918 2011-01-05 14:30:49 <luke-jr> bzr branch lp:~luke-jr/+junk/bitcoin-qt # if anyone wants to check out Qt-based bitcoind
919 2011-01-05 14:33:07 <sipa> (stressing the 'd')
920 2011-01-05 14:33:10 <luke-jr> sipa: pfft
921 2011-01-05 14:33:20 <luke-jr> better than libcrypto++ :P
922 2011-01-05 14:33:40 <ArtForz> since when do we depend on external libcryptopp ?
923 2011-01-05 14:33:42 <genjix> i agree sipa. client code is no longer needed
924 2011-01-05 14:33:47 <luke-jr> ArtForz: internal is even worse
925 2011-01-05 14:34:04 <TD> cryptopp was the least painful part of building the client, imho
926 2011-01-05 14:34:13 <TD> openssl and berkely db were significantly trickier (on macos x)
927 2011-01-05 14:34:17 <luke-jr> also, Qt bitcoind is painless to build :
928 2011-01-05 14:34:26 <luke-jr> oh, no idea on Mac
929 2011-01-05 14:34:31 <ArtForz> only thing from cryptopp we use is sha256