1 2011-01-08 00:02:25 <sipa> ;;bc,mtgox
  2 2011-01-08 00:02:26 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.322,"low":0.2979,"vol":42476,"buy":0.3092,"sell":0.315,"last":0.3229}}
  3 2011-01-08 00:02:53 <da2ce7> http://hosting11.imagecross.com/image-hosting-58/4918fann-temp.png
  4 2011-01-08 00:03:05 <da2ce7> 42470 vol
  5 2011-01-08 00:03:11 <da2ce7> things are starting to move.
  6 2011-01-08 00:05:19 <slush> nice. I have new mobo for miner, so I'll rebuild computer tomorrow, reinstall all the stuff and get a try for afterburner & furmark
  7 2011-01-08 00:06:35 <da2ce7> yeah, I've been buying coins more than generating...
  8 2011-01-08 00:07:25 <sipa> you should
  9 2011-01-08 00:07:40 <sipa> it's about more than generating :)
 10 2011-01-08 00:08:11 <da2ce7> I've been trying to keep the 1:1 rato between generation and purchaseing.
 11 2011-01-08 00:09:02 <da2ce7> but now it is a more like 2:3 in favour of purchased
 12 2011-01-08 00:10:05 <kartofeln> do you need an actual MSI motherboard to use afterburner?
 13 2011-01-08 00:14:57 <kartofeln> apparently not. neato.
 14 2011-01-08 00:15:35 <da2ce7> nope, but I would buy MSI, they make good products.
 15 2011-01-08 00:15:54 <kartofeln> darn. this makes overclocking ridiculously easy.
 16 2011-01-08 00:16:10 <kartofeln> burn, gpu, burn!
 17 2011-01-08 00:17:09 <da2ce7> lol, be carefull, you may end up with a $500 of not working VDDC's.
 18 2011-01-08 00:18:02 <kartofeln> nah I'm safe. I can only end up with $120 of burnt sand.
 19 2011-01-08 00:19:16 <da2ce7> good a good-enough PSU? If that dies it can take out your entire system
 20 2011-01-08 00:19:32 <kartofeln> hmm. a fair point.
 21 2011-01-08 00:20:55 <da2ce7> I recomend enermax :)  But I'm paranoid.
 22 2011-01-08 00:22:25 <kartofeln> w00t. my card doesn't like being overclocked from 850 to 960 mhz.
 23 2011-01-08 00:23:17 <da2ce7> lol, I wouldn't expect so, Remever Power v.s. clockspeed is non-linear
 24 2011-01-08 00:24:21 <kartofeln> it didn't crash everything though.. just went dark. then light green, then vista politely told me that my video driver had given up the ghost.
 25 2011-01-08 00:24:51 <kartofeln> apparently while it was doing that, the card temperature dropped from 85 to 52.. my BTC miner basically froze dead.
 26 2011-01-08 00:25:38 <kartofeln> maybe I just needed more voltage >:)
 27 2011-01-08 00:30:12 <kartofeln> so talking GPU... my card is supposed to have 10 cores for use by openCL, and it being fed an average of 2.6 million threads at a time by the miner. does it mean each GPU core grinds through around 260,000 kernel iteration on every cl.search() call?
 28 2011-01-08 00:31:20 <kartofeln> if so, I'm not sure I understand why a GPU core is apparently so much faster than a CPU core than run at 3x the clock speed.
 29 2011-01-08 00:31:37 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: you have it wrong
 30 2011-01-08 00:31:46 <Diablo-D3> you have maybe 800 hardware threads
 31 2011-01-08 00:31:49 <Diablo-D3> instead of 2 or 4.
 32 2011-01-08 00:32:15 <Diablo-D3> so your gpu is working on 800 unique nonces at once
 33 2011-01-08 00:32:20 <kartofeln> oh ok. so it's a lot more than 10 hardware thingies running my code at a time.
 34 2011-01-08 00:32:27 <Diablo-D3> your cpu does 2 or 4.
 35 2011-01-08 00:32:29 <Diablo-D3> yes.
 36 2011-01-08 00:32:37 <Diablo-D3> compute units only manage sets of hardware threads
 37 2011-01-08 00:32:37 <kartofeln> how would I find this 800 number for my card?
 38 2011-01-08 00:32:44 <Diablo-D3> and those threads are also pipelined
 39 2011-01-08 00:33:22 <Diablo-D3> it also doesnt matter how many your card has
 40 2011-01-08 00:33:40 <kartofeln> is it related at all to the amount of shader cores?
 41 2011-01-08 00:33:45 <Diablo-D3> yes.
 42 2011-01-08 00:34:40 <kartofeln> if someone were to adapt BitCoinMiner.cl into GLSL, would the shader code effectively be using the exact same hardware resources as the openCL kernel?
 43 2011-01-08 00:34:45 <Diablo-D3> no.
 44 2011-01-08 00:34:50 <kartofeln> :(
 45 2011-01-08 00:34:58 <Diablo-D3> that wouldnt make any sense
 46 2011-01-08 00:35:06 <kartofeln> define "sense" ;)
 47 2011-01-08 00:35:12 <Diablo-D3> glsl and cl run on the same unified shader cores
 48 2011-01-08 00:35:17 <Diablo-D3> but they're different languages
 49 2011-01-08 00:35:23 <Diablo-D3> theres no reasonable way to do this in glsl
 50 2011-01-08 00:35:48 <kartofeln> I'm wondering if one could build a purely browser-based miner that wouldn't suck.
 51 2011-01-08 00:35:54 <kartofeln> presumably using webGL shaders.
 52 2011-01-08 00:36:14 <Diablo-D3> nope.
 53 2011-01-08 00:36:20 <lfm> kartofeln it would suck
 54 2011-01-08 00:36:24 <Diablo-D3> and btw, theres no such thing as "webgl shaders"
 55 2011-01-08 00:36:36 <Diablo-D3> webgl is a javascript wrapper for the opengl api
 56 2011-01-08 00:36:40 <kartofeln> well, fragment shaders defined from webgl.
 57 2011-01-08 00:37:08 <kartofeln> ok.. what makes it unreasonable/sucky?
 58 2011-01-08 00:37:30 <kartofeln> is it purely that shaders can't return values, unless as part of a generated bitmap?
 59 2011-01-08 00:38:09 <Diablo-D3> that in itself isnt entirely true.
 60 2011-01-08 00:38:16 <Diablo-D3> its juist that glsl was never meant to handle this.
 61 2011-01-08 00:38:36 <kartofeln> well, that's what makes it an awesome idea! ;)
 62 2011-01-08 00:38:43 <Diablo-D3> no it doesnt
 63 2011-01-08 00:38:56 <Diablo-D3> this is why opencl was designed
 64 2011-01-08 00:38:57 <Diablo-D3> to do this.
 65 2011-01-08 00:39:03 <kartofeln> yes yes. except openCL isn't everywhere yet.
 66 2011-01-08 00:39:12 <Diablo-D3> glsl doesnt have the appropriate functionality to make it work
 67 2011-01-08 00:39:14 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: yes it is
 68 2011-01-08 00:39:28 <Diablo-D3> opencl works on radeon 4000 and above and geforce 8000 and above
 69 2011-01-08 00:39:32 <Diablo-D3> thats pretty much everywhere
 70 2011-01-08 00:39:47 <kartofeln> c'mon.. you know it'd be neat in some horrible hackish kind of way.
 71 2011-01-08 00:39:49 <lfm> intel comming soon
 72 2011-01-08 00:40:40 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: I think you misunderstood
 73 2011-01-08 00:40:49 <Diablo-D3> opencl was designed because glsl CANT DO THIS
 74 2011-01-08 00:40:57 <Diablo-D3> people have been trying to do shit like this for years
 75 2011-01-08 00:41:01 <Diablo-D3> glsl is very badly designed for this
 76 2011-01-08 00:41:03 <lfm> even if it was neat in some horrible hackish sort of way, it would still suck
 77 2011-01-08 00:41:10 <kartofeln> :'(
 78 2011-01-08 00:41:17 <kartofeln> fine. crush my dreams.
 79 2011-01-08 00:41:45 <kartofeln> but crush them precisely please.. what is lacking in glsl to do this?
 80 2011-01-08 00:41:50 <lfm> yes, kartofeln's dreams and unicorns
 81 2011-01-08 00:42:20 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: for one, the glsl compiler wont produce the ops
 82 2011-01-08 00:42:33 <Diablo-D3> and its a large pita to boil the results down reasonably
 83 2011-01-08 00:42:45 <kartofeln> I understand the later, but not the former.
 84 2011-01-08 00:42:55 <kartofeln> I wouldn't be able to fit sha256 in a glsl shader?
 85 2011-01-08 00:43:01 <lfm> 32bit rotates?
 86 2011-01-08 00:43:10 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: fit? that isnt the issue
 87 2011-01-08 00:43:12 <Diablo-D3> the ops are missing.
 88 2011-01-08 00:43:47 <kartofeln> rotations can be emulated.. couple of shifts, a pinch of and..
 89 2011-01-08 00:44:18 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: you fail at compiler design forever.
 90 2011-01-08 00:44:31 <lfm> 32 bit addition also
 91 2011-01-08 00:44:47 <lfm> you start emulating things and you get real slow real soon
 92 2011-01-08 00:45:03 <Diablo-D3> the hardware already does the shit we need
 93 2011-01-08 00:45:21 <kartofeln> there's a uint type in there.. I haven't tested them extensively yet, but I thought I'd get basic stuff like add to work on it
 94 2011-01-08 00:45:31 <Diablo-D3> glsl just doesnt use the ops for it
 95 2011-01-08 00:45:50 <Diablo-D3> and Im not sure if glsl CAN use the ops for it
 96 2011-01-08 00:45:55 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: trust me, its a bad idea
 97 2011-01-08 00:45:58 <lfm> and why bother when you have opencl
 98 2011-01-08 00:47:03 <kartofeln> ok, so the glsl compiler will give me crap opcodes compared to opencl, and I won't have a good way to get the results.
 99 2011-01-08 00:48:14 <lfm> and it will be so slow that no one will want to use it
100 2011-01-08 01:33:03 <da2ce7> is there a 'This Bitcoin Wikipage has a bounty!' template yet?
101 2011-01-08 01:33:47 <da2ce7> if not, I make a 5BTC bounty to make one!
102 2011-01-08 01:33:49 <da2ce7> :S
103 2011-01-08 01:33:50 <da2ce7> :D
104 2011-01-08 01:35:09 <newsham> diablo: around?
105 2011-01-08 01:37:05 <noagendamarket> good idea da2ce7
106 2011-01-08 01:37:06 <slush> Diablo-D3: ping
107 2011-01-08 01:38:03 <Diablo-D3> slush: what
108 2011-01-08 01:38:24 <slush> Diablo-D3: newsham
109 2011-01-08 01:38:36 <Diablo-D3> sigh
110 2011-01-08 01:38:43 <Diablo-D3> newsham: what
111 2011-01-08 01:39:02 <newsham> diablo: I ran your gpu miner program and it segfaulted after printing a few messages.  this is on a ubuntu 10.04 box in 64bit mode with an nvidia card, using the stock files that came with the nvidia driver.
112 2011-01-08 01:39:27 <Diablo-D3> newsham: sounds like you didnt install the right packages
113 2011-01-08 01:39:34 <Diablo-D3> your messages are probably "cant find opencl"
114 2011-01-08 01:39:49 <newsham> no, not those.  i did have those before installing the nvidia driver.
115 2011-01-08 01:39:59 <newsham> there are opencl files around now, ie in /usr/local/nvidia-current/CL/cl.h
116 2011-01-08 01:40:03 <Diablo-D3> okay lets try it this way
117 2011-01-08 01:40:18 <Diablo-D3> does m0's miner work?
118 2011-01-08 01:40:51 <newsham> i havent tried his
119 2011-01-08 01:41:14 <newsham> messages were "started" "added nvs 3100M (#1) (2 CU, local work size of 512)
120 2011-01-08 01:41:19 <newsham> "waiting... segmentation fault"
121 2011-01-08 01:41:32 <newsham> i have core file, backtrace was mostly in /usr/lib/nvidia-current/libcuda.so
122 2011-01-08 01:42:04 <Diablo-D3> sounds like you're just using a broken driver release then
123 2011-01-08 01:42:10 <Diablo-D3> go upgrade to the newest one
124 2011-01-08 01:42:17 <Diablo-D3> and no, I cant fix it
125 2011-01-08 01:42:22 <Diablo-D3> nvidia needs to learn how to code
126 2011-01-08 01:42:28 <newsham> its the stock one that comes from ubuntu 10.04.
127 2011-01-08 01:42:43 <Diablo-D3> so? ubuntu is known to not keep drivers up to date
128 2011-01-08 01:43:13 <newsham> so you recommend getting latest drivers from nvidia and compiling/installing then?
129 2011-01-08 01:43:18 <lfm> newsham can you try ubuntu 10.10? I use it ok
130 2011-01-08 01:43:54 <newsham> i was thinking about that..  might be the easiest way to go since i heard 10.10 has opencl
131 2011-01-08 01:44:17 <newsham> are you using 10.10 on 32bit or 64bit?
132 2011-01-08 01:44:35 <lfm> well it seems you managed to get at least part of opencl running already but it might work better from 10.10
133 2011-01-08 01:44:49 <lfm> I am using both 32 and 64 bit
134 2011-01-08 01:46:17 <newsham> i'm gonna try grabbing newer drivers from nvidia first, if that fails i'll prob upgrade to 10.10
135 2011-01-08 01:46:30 <lfm> k good luck
136 2011-01-08 01:49:36 <kartofeln> do I sense an android app under development?
137 2011-01-08 01:49:52 <tcatm> http://tcatm.github.com/bitcoin-js-remote/
138 2011-01-08 01:50:05 <kartofeln> ah neat. so wifi, I presume?
139 2011-01-08 01:50:10 <tcatm> yep
140 2011-01-08 02:22:53 <newsham> do gpu miners and cpu miners coexist on the same box well?
141 2011-01-08 02:22:59 <newsham> (they use different resources, right?)
142 2011-01-08 02:23:43 <lfm> newsham yup, although the cpu miners are still not generally power efficient
143 2011-01-08 02:24:12 <newsham> lfm: what about the difference in power consumption of box on running gpu miner vs. box on running gpu miner plus cpu miner?
144 2011-01-08 02:24:13 <kartofeln> your cpu miner output might look like a rounding error compared to your gpu output.
145 2011-01-08 02:24:23 <newsham> heh
146 2011-01-08 02:25:01 <tcatm> a CPU miner might even increase latency for the GPU miner so total hashrate will be lower than GPU-only
147 2011-01-08 02:25:24 <kartofeln> seriously.. I get more hashes by slightly overclocking my GPU than by running on 4 CPU cores.
148 2011-01-08 02:25:58 <alowm> weak hd4850 gpu > four miner threads on core i7 quad
149 2011-01-08 02:26:19 <alowm> 16,000 khash vs 5,000 khash
150 2011-01-08 02:30:10 <alowm> and, yes, probably quite a big difference in energy consumption, too
151 2011-01-08 02:30:14 <alowm> core i7 is hungry
152 2011-01-08 02:31:35 <lfm> ok I got a q6600 with a radeon HD5770. idle it runs 132watts, mining with the cpu only (bitcoind) it runs 205W, with the GPU only it si 217W, with both it is 290W
153 2011-01-08 02:32:28 <kartofeln> neat. your numbers add up perfectly.
154 2011-01-08 02:32:34 <alowm> very nice
155 2011-01-08 02:33:08 <lfm> the cpu with 4 threads mining produce about 4500 khash/s, the gpu produses 156000khash/s
156 2011-01-08 02:33:47 <alowm> which gpu miner are you using?
157 2011-01-08 02:33:54 <lfm> diablo's
158 2011-01-08 02:34:19 <lfm> on ubuntu 10-10 amd64
159 2011-01-08 02:34:38 <Diablo-D3> btw, its not recommended to cpu mine while gpu mining
160 2011-01-08 02:34:43 <Diablo-D3> it usually unacceptably slows gpu mining
161 2011-01-08 02:34:45 <kartofeln> I get 160 on same GPU by using -w 128 -f 30 -v.. but any/all video/animation on the screen get slowed to 30fps.
162 2011-01-08 02:35:04 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: except -v is not used.
163 2011-01-08 02:35:40 <kartofeln> you don't use vectors in your version?
164 2011-01-08 02:35:46 <Diablo-D3> no point anymore
165 2011-01-08 02:36:04 <kartofeln> At one point, I thought I'd make things vastly faster by using bigger vectors.. apparently vectors don't work that way.
166 2011-01-08 02:36:11 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: no
167 2011-01-08 02:36:19 <Diablo-D3> on radeon 4xxx that was masking a compiler bug
168 2011-01-08 02:36:34 <Diablo-D3> properly written opencl compilers will already autovectorize if it can
169 2011-01-08 02:36:49 <kartofeln> but the 2 uint vector is giving a significant hashrate change on my 5770.
170 2011-01-08 02:36:53 <kartofeln> from 140 to 160
171 2011-01-08 02:37:07 <Diablo-D3> it shouldnt
172 2011-01-08 02:37:16 <kartofeln> and then it starts going back down with 3 uints, even worse with 4 uints.
173 2011-01-08 02:37:38 <Diablo-D3> also, -w 64 should be faster than 128
174 2011-01-08 02:37:38 <newsham> diablo/lfm: i uninstalled the ubuntu provided nvidia driver and installed the latest from nvidia.com and diablo miner isnt segfaulting now.
175 2011-01-08 02:37:48 <Diablo-D3> newsham: see? driver bug.
176 2011-01-08 02:37:48 <newsham> on ubuntu 10.04, amd64.
177 2011-01-08 02:38:04 <newsham> diablo: *nod*.  confirmation.  might be useful if someone else asks same question later..
178 2011-01-08 02:38:07 <lfm> newsham thats good
179 2011-01-08 02:38:39 <newsham> too bad ubuntu didnt just roll up an updated driver pkg.. obviously they have a newer one shipping in 10.10...
180 2011-01-08 02:38:42 <kartofeln> without -v, -w 64 is a wee bit faster than -w 128. with -v, it's 10Mhash/s slower. not going to pretend I understand the why of it.
181 2011-01-08 02:38:59 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: fglrx already autovectorizes
182 2011-01-08 02:39:09 <newsham> looks like around 3500 khash/sec.
183 2011-01-08 02:39:24 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: 2 is the proper width for 4xxx and 5xxx hardware, and the driver chooses it
184 2011-01-08 02:39:26 <kartofeln> oh sorry, I'm on vista x64.
185 2011-01-08 02:39:33 <Diablo-D3> same thing
186 2011-01-08 02:39:54 <Diablo-D3> after mass testing, -w 64 -v 1 was the proper choice
187 2011-01-08 02:40:11 <Diablo-D3> -w 128 -v 1, -w 64 -v 2, and -w 128 -v 2 was always slower
188 2011-01-08 02:40:20 <Diablo-D3> so I removed vectors altogether
189 2011-01-08 02:40:43 <Diablo-D3> newsham: what chip?
190 2011-01-08 02:40:52 <kartofeln> well okay.. it doesn't match what I'm seeing here though.
191 2011-01-08 02:41:00 <EvanR> systemfault: welcome ;)
192 2011-01-08 02:41:25 <systemfault> :)
193 2011-01-08 02:41:29 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: -w 64 should be faster than -w 128 -v 2.
194 2011-01-08 02:41:36 <newsham> diablo: whatever comes in the thinkpad t410s?  :)
195 2011-01-08 02:41:40 <newsham> some nvidia thing
196 2011-01-08 02:41:44 <newsham> is there a cmd to show me?
197 2011-01-08 02:41:53 <newsham> "Added NVS 3100M"  is that the chip?
198 2011-01-08 02:42:04 <kartofeln> I tried, -w 64 alone is still clocking at around 140MHash/s, vs -w 128 -v a 160
199 2011-01-08 02:42:08 <Diablo-D3> newsham: yes it is
200 2011-01-08 02:42:19 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: weird, sounds like driver bug. which sdk?
201 2011-01-08 02:42:40 <kartofeln> ati stream.. lemme look up the version
202 2011-01-08 02:42:47 <newsham> does 3500 khash/sec sound about right?  or should i be tuning this?
203 2011-01-08 02:42:52 <Diablo-D3> newsham: well
204 2011-01-08 02:43:11 <kartofeln> ati stream v2
205 2011-01-08 02:43:14 <newsham> i think i get about 3000khash/sec on the cpu on this box.
206 2011-01-08 02:43:34 <newsham> looks like running the gpu miner at the same time as the cpu miner doesnt affect eithers performance noticeably
207 2011-01-08 02:43:44 <Diablo-D3> newsham: 3100m == gt218m
208 2011-01-08 02:44:09 <Diablo-D3> newsham: == 600mhz 16 shader cores
209 2011-01-08 02:44:18 <Diablo-D3> == 70 gflops
210 2011-01-08 02:45:03 <Diablo-D3> so thats around a geforce 310
211 2011-01-08 02:45:28 <Diablo-D3> 600mhz, 16 shaders, 70 gflops
212 2011-01-08 02:46:08 <Diablo-D3> newsham: turn off gpu mining
213 2011-01-08 02:46:11 <Diablo-D3> er
214 2011-01-08 02:46:15 <Diablo-D3> cpu mining
215 2011-01-08 02:46:22 <kartofeln> Diablo-D3: the ATI sdk comes with a "Stream KernelAnalyzer" tool that seems to fairly accurately predict the throughput of a chunk of CL code.
216 2011-01-08 02:46:25 <Diablo-D3> and you should get around 20 mhash/sec
217 2011-01-08 02:47:02 <Diablo-D3> whoop sorry
218 2011-01-08 02:47:14 <newsham> i get the same perf wether or not my cpu miner (cpuminer-0.5) is running
219 2011-01-08 02:47:18 <kartofeln> on m0mchil's BitCoinMiner.cl with VECTORS defined, it's predicting a throughput of 84 M Threads/Sec on a 5770. without VECTORS, it's predicting 144 M Threads/Sec
220 2011-01-08 02:47:19 <Diablo-D3> around 4.
221 2011-01-08 02:47:26 <Diablo-D3> actually, slightly more than 3.
222 2011-01-08 02:47:40 <Diablo-D3> newsham: so you're getting slightly more than 3?
223 2011-01-08 02:47:48 <newsham> oh also I hvae X running.. would that affect it? :)
224 2011-01-08 02:48:08 <lfm> ya he said 3500
225 2011-01-08 02:48:32 <Diablo-D3> newsham: no, it wouldnt
226 2011-01-08 02:48:33 <Diablo-D3> so yeah
227 2011-01-08 02:48:37 <Diablo-D3> thats about all you're getting
228 2011-01-08 02:49:04 <lfm> newsham you need X I think. the driver is loaded by X
229 2011-01-08 02:49:32 <newsham> yah, i just found that out :)
230 2011-01-08 02:49:59 <newsham> so running gpuminer and cpuminer at the same time i think i'm getting around 7mh/s
231 2011-01-08 02:50:17 <EvanR> millihashes? </returntoSItrolling>
232 2011-01-08 02:50:21 <newsham> heh
233 2011-01-08 02:50:43 <lfm> for the pedantic its properly Mhash/sec
234 2011-01-08 02:51:01 <newsham> is that what the ISO board decided?
235 2011-01-08 02:51:17 <kartofeln> "/s" is the proper SI "per second" format.
236 2011-01-08 02:51:37 <EvanR> yeah its kMGTPE??Y
237 2011-01-08 02:51:38 <lfm> ISO prefix standard, of course they dont have jurisdiction over bitcoin
238 2011-01-08 02:52:18 <lfm> yet
239 2011-01-08 02:52:32 <EvanR> indeed, thats why nanocoins are 10^-8
240 2011-01-08 02:52:36 <EvanR> lol
241 2011-01-08 02:52:37 <kartofeln> only raw computing power has jurisdiction over bitcoin, for better or worse.
242 2011-01-08 02:53:00 <lfm> evenr I prefer microcents
243 2011-01-08 02:53:14 <newsham> and only the periodic table had power over egold?
244 2011-01-08 02:53:15 <newsham> heh.
245 2011-01-08 02:53:48 <kartofeln> it's not just a saying. if someone comes out with a massive quantity of computing power, then can de facto dictate all things bitcoin.
246 2011-01-08 02:54:13 <EvanR> they could probably also unlock world cryptographies
247 2011-01-08 02:54:32 <lfm> evanr well, not really
248 2011-01-08 02:54:44 <newsham> kart: right, but thats not to say a govt couldnt come in and use other means to control the situation.
249 2011-01-08 02:55:05 <newsham> they get awefully touchy when people challenge their monopoly on printing money
250 2011-01-08 02:55:07 <EvanR> if a government found a way to take over bitcoin, you can bet some other country has the technology too
251 2011-01-08 02:55:19 <EvanR> pit governments against each other, and the collective people
252 2011-01-08 02:55:25 <newsham> evanr: i'm not talking about technology.
253 2011-01-08 02:55:32 <EvanR> oh algorithms?
254 2011-01-08 02:55:34 <EvanR> yeah were screwed
255 2011-01-08 02:55:35 <newsham> i'm talking about money, lawyers, guns, etc.
256 2011-01-08 02:55:41 <kartofeln> well, the other attacks involve shutting down all the exchangers, shutting down the internet as we know it, and strongly splitting the internet.
257 2011-01-08 02:55:46 <lfm> and if 3 governments try at the same time (nearly equal ones) none win
258 2011-01-08 02:55:50 <EvanR> i dont recognize the legitimacy of those threats ;)
259 2011-01-08 02:56:03 <newsham> evanr: the great thing is they dont have to be legitimate to be effective
260 2011-01-08 02:56:17 <EvanR> you can conquer the body, but not the mind!
261 2011-01-08 02:56:46 <newsham> how many kh/s does your mind get?
262 2011-01-08 02:56:59 <newsham> anyway, i think we're drifting off topic
263 2011-01-08 02:57:03 <EvanR> lol
264 2011-01-08 02:57:10 <EvanR> the politics is the best part
265 2011-01-08 02:57:30 <lfm> itd be microhash/s
266 2011-01-08 02:57:40 <newsham> lfm: femto.
267 2011-01-08 02:57:54 <newsham> has anyone made a gamecoin to bitcoin market yet? :)
268 2011-01-08 02:58:01 <kartofeln> depends if I get a paper and a pen or not. :-/
269 2011-01-08 02:58:11 <newsham> seems like gamecoins have done pretty well at establishing themselves as something of a currency without trying
270 2011-01-08 02:58:31 <EvanR> is it centralized?
271 2011-01-08 02:58:34 <newsham> logical conclusion would be for bitcoin to try to get used as a game currency for a game people want to play
272 2011-01-08 02:58:45 <newsham> to promote bitcoin use
273 2011-01-08 02:58:54 <lfm> newsham someone was trying to trade secondlife money for bitcoin
274 2011-01-08 02:59:10 <lfm> linden$
275 2011-01-08 02:59:33 <newsham> would be nice having some large forex market with lots of diff ecurrencies and gamecoins
276 2011-01-08 02:59:50 <EvanR> and linden
277 2011-01-08 02:59:51 <EvanR> and wow gold
278 2011-01-08 02:59:53 <EvanR> and whatever
279 2011-01-08 03:00:06 <EvanR> sounds hard to have all that under one roof and not get arrested
280 2011-01-08 03:00:17 <newsham> btw, i read something about the difficulties in trusting paypal or credit cards for bitcoin transactions (ie. chargeback risk).  what do sites that accept cc/pp do to handle that risk?
281 2011-01-08 03:00:36 <newsham> evanr: what would be the problem, legal wise?
282 2011-01-08 03:00:39 <EvanR> most sites eat the losses or go out of business
283 2011-01-08 03:00:46 <EvanR> in general
284 2011-01-08 03:01:04 <lfm> or som e combination of the two
285 2011-01-08 03:01:08 <EvanR> newsham: depending on the country, half of these are illegal tender
286 2011-01-08 03:03:48 <EvanR> if i got the details straight, if the cc company informs you of a possible chargeback, and its a fraud situation, you have no way to 'settle' things with the card owner. so you auto loose money
287 2011-01-08 03:04:08 <EvanR> but you have a time period to settle things in case the user was just being stupid
288 2011-01-08 03:04:16 <EvanR> it takes time out of your day though
289 2011-01-08 03:06:09 <EvanR> they say make the customer experience as good as possible to avoid chargebacks, but because of fraud, and because the cc company is likely to side with the owner, thats BS
290 2011-01-08 03:06:38 <newsham> i think it would be fun to set up a market but i am not interested in dealing with cc/pp transactions and risk.
291 2011-01-08 03:06:52 <Diablo-D3> chargebacks ALWAYS happen
292 2011-01-08 03:06:52 <EvanR> i checked into google checkout
293 2011-01-08 03:06:55 <Diablo-D3> because people cannot be trusted
294 2011-01-08 03:07:13 <newsham> diablo: and btc is perfect for chargeback fraud
295 2011-01-08 03:07:23 <newsham> so prob much higher risk than avg
296 2011-01-08 03:07:48 <EvanR> google has fraud detection, according to their ad, but the 'charge back protection' in the fine print says doesnt cover digital merchandise
297 2011-01-08 03:07:53 <EvanR> only tangible goods
298 2011-01-08 03:08:26 <EvanR> you can also accept payments from paypal competitors, but most people wont have it or want to sign up
299 2011-01-08 03:08:34 <EvanR> google would have worked since its a big name
300 2011-01-08 03:08:57 <newsham> evanr: you're a haskell guy right?
301 2011-01-08 03:09:24 <EvanR> answer may serve to incriminate me
302 2011-01-08 03:09:26 <lfm> limit people to small txn so you can afford a few fraud and people wont be so tempted
303 2011-01-08 03:09:27 <EvanR> answering*
304 2011-01-08 03:09:30 <Diablo-D3> HAH
305 2011-01-08 03:09:33 <Diablo-D3> fucking haskell
306 2011-01-08 03:09:42 <EvanR> fucking haskell, how does THAT work
307 2011-01-08 03:09:45 <Diablo-D3> if I wanted to kick myself in the nuts, I'd use lisp instead
308 2011-01-08 03:10:09 <EvanR> systemfault: youre supposed to chime in here ;)
309 2011-01-08 03:10:22 <newsham> evanr: http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/snapgame/   small trading game in haskell.
310 2011-01-08 03:10:56 <EvanR> thats cool, does it use bitcoins?
311 2011-01-08 03:11:22 <newsham> nope.
312 2011-01-08 03:11:38 <EvanR> im glad theres people besides me working on web haskell ;)
313 2011-01-08 03:24:44 <newsham> i dont very often
314 2011-01-08 03:24:46 <newsham> was kinda for kicks
315 2011-01-08 03:37:21 <eboyjr> Who uses bitcoins now?
316 2011-01-08 03:37:44 <lfm> who doesnt
317 2011-01-08 03:38:59 <luke-jr> eboyjr: http://www.bitcoin.org/trade
318 2011-01-08 03:39:31 <eboyjr> Good answer
319 2011-01-08 03:39:33 <eboyjr> luke-jr: thanks
320 2011-01-08 03:40:10 <luke-jr> eboyjr: if you need a VPS, I run the Lightfoot Hosting one :P
321 2011-01-08 03:40:41 <luke-jr> but fwiw, it's fairly difficult to get bitcoins these days
322 2011-01-08 03:40:50 <luke-jr> short of postal mailing cash
323 2011-01-08 03:41:04 <alowm> i'm making a few BTC/day with a single gpu in a mining collective
324 2011-01-08 03:41:13 <luke-jr> alowm: that's cheating
325 2011-01-08 03:41:33 <alowm> luke-jr: where are the BTC prices on your site?
326 2011-01-08 03:41:38 <alowm> cheating?
327 2011-01-08 03:41:44 <luke-jr> alowm: select BitCoin from the currency dropdown :P
328 2011-01-08 03:41:53 <luke-jr> cheating because it uses proprietary drivers :P
329 2011-01-08 03:41:58 <alowm> ah ok cool
330 2011-01-08 03:42:11 <alowm> i'm not aware of non-proprietary drivers for mac systems
331 2011-01-08 03:42:20 <luke-jr> true enough
332 2011-01-08 03:42:34 <luke-jr> I guess if you're already compromised, it doesn't hurt to make use of it XD
333 2011-01-08 03:42:43 <alowm> haha
334 2011-01-08 03:43:47 <EvanR> eboyjr: its pretty easy to get bitcoins
335 2011-01-08 03:44:00 <luke-jr> EvanR: I don't mean generating them anyhow
336 2011-01-08 03:44:15 <EvanR> you can buy them with paypal
337 2011-01-08 03:44:21 <luke-jr> I had a customer email me, and I was going to suggest he pay in bitcoins, but I couldn't find any way for him to get them with $
338 2011-01-08 03:44:24 <luke-jr> EvanR: how?
339 2011-01-08 03:44:25 <eboyjr> Are they expensive?
340 2011-01-08 03:44:38 <luke-jr> eboyjr: about $0.31 USD each right now, if you can get them
341 2011-01-08 03:44:44 <EvanR> ...
342 2011-01-08 03:44:46 <luke-jr> eboyjr: the problem is fraud
343 2011-01-08 03:45:03 <luke-jr> EvanR: MtGox no longer accepts PayPal; Market is closed to new users
344 2011-01-08 03:45:31 <EvanR> you just ask in bitcoin-otc
345 2011-01-08 03:46:37 <EvanR> bitcoin central is new, and bcm is reopening at some point
346 2011-01-08 03:46:56 <EvanR> and several people always ready to do otc trades
347 2011-01-08 03:47:10 <EvanR> luke-jr: you know, it would be easier if you took their USD ;)
348 2011-01-08 03:47:20 <lfm> ;;bc,stats
349 2011-01-08 03:47:22 <gribble> Current Blocks: 101567 | Current Difficulty: 16307.48285682 | Next Difficulty At Block: 102815 | Next Difficulty In: 1248 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 2 hours, 28 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 17456.89231757
350 2011-01-08 03:47:35 <EvanR> or did you ask them to pay you in total dollars
351 2011-01-08 03:48:17 <EvanR> tonal*
352 2011-01-08 03:49:27 <luke-jr> EvanR: I won't trust USD without a postal address
353 2011-01-08 03:50:15 <EvanR> trust usd in what way, accept?
354 2011-01-08 03:50:46 <luke-jr> right
355 2011-01-08 03:50:53 <EvanR> how does an address work
356 2011-01-08 03:50:57 <EvanR> or help
357 2011-01-08 03:56:50 <luke-jr> I can look it up on Google Maps and make sure it's a real place
358 2011-01-08 03:56:52 <luke-jr> :P
359 2011-01-08 03:58:44 <EvanR> so can they lol
360 2011-01-08 04:00:25 <luke-jr> think they'd bother?
361 2011-01-08 04:05:25 <EvanR> if were gonna assume theyre idiots, why do *we* bother ;)
362 2011-01-08 04:05:57 <lfm> you only need to assume some of em are idiots
363 2011-01-08 04:17:09 <da2ce7> ;;bc,mtgox
364 2011-01-08 04:17:10 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.322,"low":0.309,"vol":8216,"buy":0.309,"sell":0.31,"last":0.31}}
365 2011-01-08 04:17:27 <da2ce7> vol has returned to more sane levels...
366 2011-01-08 04:17:36 <da2ce7> prices should hold for at leat a day.
367 2011-01-08 04:17:59 <da2ce7> *least
368 2011-01-08 04:18:53 <da2ce7> (hmm I'm always uneasy makeing such predictions, as the pridiction itself can get people to buy n' sell)
369 2011-01-08 04:21:37 <kartofeln> low liquidity isn't a good indicator of price stability..
370 2011-01-08 04:24:31 <eboyjr> is there a bitcoin stock market
371 2011-01-08 04:25:35 <kartofeln> I don't know how any stock traded in BTCs, no.. but there's #bitcoin-otc and #bitcoin-market
372 2011-01-08 04:28:37 <luke-jr> hmm
373 2011-01-08 04:29:06 <luke-jr> 0.31 USD per BTC seems low
374 2011-01-08 04:29:24 <luke-jr> but is it possible that people with BTC in fact /consider the USD worth less/? rather than undervalue BTC?
375 2011-01-08 04:42:43 <xelister> luke-jr: cost of production can be as low as 0.05 USD/BTC or less
376 2011-01-08 04:43:37 <eboyjr> It costs to produce btcs?
377 2011-01-08 04:46:07 <xelister> eboyjr: hardware, electrical power.  Also, well, time and skill
378 2011-01-08 04:46:19 <Ljrn900> ?
379 2011-01-08 08:11:00 <Diablo-D3> hmm
380 2011-01-08 08:11:03 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if 10.12 is buggy
381 2011-01-08 11:16:17 <lucky> Approx. cluster performance:
382 2011-01-08 11:16:19 <lucky> yeowza :)
383 2011-01-08 11:16:41 <Diablo-D3> lol I just said that a minute ago in -mining
384 2011-01-08 11:18:37 <slush> heh, how can I get list of all #bitcoin- channels here? I didn't listen about -mining before...
385 2011-01-08 11:19:13 <slush> (I'm irc newbie)
386 2011-01-08 11:19:27 <Diablo-D3> slush: ask your client to do it
387 2011-01-08 11:20:15 <slush> I'm using jabber/irc transport or so, I think I have no gui for this here
388 2011-01-08 11:20:30 <Diablo-D3> then you're doomed.
389 2011-01-08 11:20:35 <Diablo-D3> get a real irc client
390 2011-01-08 11:20:37 <Diablo-D3> slush: also
391 2011-01-08 11:20:39 <Diablo-D3> update the site
392 2011-01-08 11:20:40 <Diablo-D3> we're at 14.
393 2011-01-08 11:21:06 <slush> who cares? :-)
394 2011-01-08 11:21:11 <slush> about 'news'
395 2011-01-08 11:21:37 <Diablo-D3> do it.
396 2011-01-08 11:21:57 <slush> yes, sir!
397 2011-01-08 11:32:52 <Diablo-D3> slush: I must be moving faster than most of the pool
398 2011-01-08 11:33:02 <Diablo-D3> Ive now gotten 2 blocks
399 2011-01-08 11:33:16 <Diablo-D3> but I havent gotten 100 coins back yet
400 2011-01-08 11:33:34 <slush> yeah, it is how pool works
401 2011-01-08 11:33:47 <Diablo-D3> Im just saying
402 2011-01-08 11:33:54 <Diablo-D3> I must be REALLY ahead of the pool
403 2011-01-08 11:34:04 <Diablo-D3> pool hasnt even given me 50 coins yet
404 2011-01-08 11:34:18 <slush> You cannot do stats with 2 blocks :)
405 2011-01-08 11:34:25 <Diablo-D3> yes I can =P
406 2011-01-08 11:34:29 <slush> I'm with ~17 blocks on expected average
407 2011-01-08 11:37:02 <slush> If I remember, m0mchil mined 4 blocks and his reward was around 70 bitcoins. Now I think he has much better average.
408 2011-01-08 11:37:27 <Diablo-D3> heh
409 2011-01-08 11:37:44 <slush> Unfortunately I cannot do pool where everybody is above his average ;)
410 2011-01-08 11:38:13 <Diablo-D3> no, but it really should be nearer =P
411 2011-01-08 11:39:02 <slush> Pool is place where your miner's luck is luck for everybody else, not for you :-)
412 2011-01-08 11:39:13 <Diablo-D3> heh
413 2011-01-08 12:46:48 <slush> sir, news updated!
414 2011-01-08 12:46:55 <slush> Diablo-D3: ---^
415 2011-01-08 13:00:11 <Diablo-D3> took you long enough
416 2011-01-08 13:08:33 <Diablo-D3> okay damnit
417 2011-01-08 13:08:49 <Diablo-D3> whos PunkRockLawyer on fark
418 2011-01-08 13:09:48 <Diablo-D3> http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5872712&hl=Virginia-may-print-its-own-currency-This-is-a-repeat-from-1861-1865&startid=66054350
419 2011-01-08 13:10:02 <Diablo-D3> see the third comment
420 2011-01-08 13:35:59 <omglolbbq> are there any active poker sites or programs for bitcoin?
421 2011-01-08 14:03:09 <devon_hillard> How fast is ArtForzZz's cluster?
422 2011-01-08 14:03:15 <devon_hillard> 2-3 GH/s?
423 2011-01-08 14:04:02 <slush> 16?
424 2011-01-08 14:06:36 <omglolbbq> i tought he'd own 90% of the network by now xd
425 2011-01-08 14:07:59 <ArtForzZz> 16.5
426 2011-01-08 14:20:43 <omglolbbq> i think this might happen in the future, mining becomes too hard for home users, companies or people owning server racks will take over the mining, increasing difficulty even more, it becomes harder for them, then it ends up in the hands of superior government computing power
427 2011-01-08 14:25:18 <ArtForz> I somewhat doubt that
428 2011-01-08 14:27:11 <omglolbbq> why?>
429 2011-01-08 14:31:26 <ArtForz> several reasons
430 2011-01-08 14:39:10 <Diablo-D3> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Chav_car.jpeg
431 2011-01-08 14:42:41 <arcatan> i dunno if governments' computing power is superior to companies' computing power
432 2011-01-08 14:58:37 <TD> Diablo-D3: awesome
433 2011-01-08 14:59:26 <TD> omglolbbq: just replace "mining" in your statement with "running a website" and it still makes sense but obviously didn't come true
434 2011-01-08 15:01:13 <omglolbbq> TD, you know there are plans that work like a whitelist, block everything, onlly allow government certified websites to be accessed
435 2011-01-08 15:15:42 <TD> omglolbbq: wake me up when such plans become reality outside of small and unusual regimes
436 2011-01-08 15:16:09 <omglolbbq> time to wake up then...
437 2011-01-08 15:16:30 <TD> really? i can only access "government certified websites"? in china, sure
438 2011-01-08 15:16:37 <TD> even then though their control is flaky and unreliable
439 2011-01-08 15:20:37 <omglolbbq> there are plenty of sites getting bblocked
440 2011-01-08 15:20:55 <omglolbbq> currently it works with blacklists, thats not so far from whitelisting
441 2011-01-08 15:21:16 <omglolbbq> they will, at some point, realize they can't blacklist everything, the alternative that will come up is whitelisting
442 2011-01-08 15:22:35 <mizerydearia> It would be interesting if there were a patch for bitcoin designed which allowed multiple wallet files to be handled by Bitcoin client and there were a kind of switch or method call to alter which wallet file to make use of.
443 2011-01-08 15:23:11 <mizerydearia> Or perhaps add another argument to related methods to specify which wallet (account) to use for executing the method.
444 2011-01-08 15:24:47 <mizerydearia> e.g. I could establish one client for my family and each user could have their own password protected wallet file, in which they can log in to make it active in a currently running bitcoin process
445 2011-01-08 15:25:36 <noagendamarket> you could have 100 wallets each with 1 btc in it
446 2011-01-08 15:25:50 <noagendamarket> distributed wallet goodness lol
447 2011-01-08 15:26:20 <noagendamarket> or in artforz'a case 250 000 wallets
448 2011-01-08 15:26:29 <noagendamarket> lol
449 2011-01-08 15:26:36 <Diablo-D3> lol
450 2011-01-08 15:26:49 <Diablo-D3> and thats like, per day
451 2011-01-08 15:26:53 <noagendamarket> haha
452 2011-01-08 15:27:05 <TD> omglolbbq: which country are you in?
453 2011-01-08 15:27:08 <lfm> i think you could do that with shell scripts with the current bitcoin client
454 2011-01-08 15:27:16 <noagendamarket> you could have over 9000
455 2011-01-08 15:27:25 <omglolbbq> netherlands
456 2011-01-08 15:27:30 <TD> omglolbbq: AFAIK there are no blacklists in the USA. In places like the UK there are small blacklists, but nobody has seen them being used for political ends (yet)
457 2011-01-08 15:27:35 <TD> so pretty far away from what you described
458 2011-01-08 15:27:47 <noagendamarket> ifm this wopuld be a gui
459 2011-01-08 15:27:58 <omglolbbq> the lists are secret... nobody knows whats being blocked or not
460 2011-01-08 15:28:18 <lfm> ya, the gui client, use shell scripts to select the wallet at login time
461 2011-01-08 15:28:36 <lfm> this is linux?
462 2011-01-08 15:29:00 <TD> omglolbbq: so how do you know anything is being blocked at all ?
463 2011-01-08 15:29:24 <omglolbbq> because they admitted they were censoring
464 2011-01-08 15:29:30 <omglolbbq> just not giving out the list
465 2011-01-08 15:29:31 <TD> censoring what, exactly?
466 2011-01-08 15:29:45 <TD> yes, the uk does that. but people would find out very quickly if such a list was being used for political ends.
467 2011-01-08 15:29:55 <omglolbbq> netherlands too apparently
468 2011-01-08 15:30:30 <noagendamarket> the government is racist becauise it uses blacklists
469 2011-01-08 15:30:38 <TD> haha
470 2011-01-08 15:30:45 <noagendamarket> I think we should propagate it
471 2011-01-08 15:30:45 <TD> all black lists look the same to me ;)
472 2011-01-08 15:31:25 <noagendamarket> maybe its not if obama comes out with a black list
473 2011-01-08 15:31:48 <noagendamarket> hmmm
474 2011-01-08 15:32:06 <noagendamarket> its a civil rights issue
475 2011-01-08 15:32:08 <noagendamarket> lol
476 2011-01-08 15:51:47 <kiba> why blacklist child p0rn site when you can try to find out who the heck is producing it?
477 2011-01-08 15:52:33 <lfm> kiba the cops are exept from the blacklists
478 2011-01-08 15:52:42 <lfm> exempt
479 2011-01-08 15:53:33 <TD> why blacklist it at all. trying to avoid determined people from accessing particular types of images is a losing battle and a slippery slope
480 2011-01-08 15:54:15 <mizerydearia> Is anyone available and interested in assisting me with or reviewing my implementation of OpenId for a website?
481 2011-01-08 15:54:18 <kiba> just because someone is interested in child porn doesn't mean he's an evil molester
482 2011-01-08 15:54:55 <kiba> just mean that he have very creepy taste
483 2011-01-08 15:55:55 <omglolbbq> you must be a terrorist kiba xD or worse
484 2011-01-08 15:55:56 <omglolbbq> xD
485 2011-01-08 15:57:01 <kiba> ya know
486 2011-01-08 15:57:13 <kiba> there are ton of people who think I am condemned to hell
487 2011-01-08 15:57:19 <kiba> in the league of the devil
488 2011-01-08 15:57:37 <omglolbbq> xD
489 2011-01-08 15:58:28 <kiba> I rather pray to Buddha, rather than ask God for help. ;)
490 2011-01-08 15:59:57 <omglolbbq> maybe you can pay off your sins with BTC
491 2011-01-08 16:00:07 <omglolbbq> don't know how modern the dude is...
492 2011-01-08 16:00:21 <kiba> I don't think Buddha care about your sin
493 2011-01-08 16:00:43 <lfm> kiba and you arnt?
494 2011-01-08 16:00:45 <omglolbbq> no but the all loving, all caring God does... xD
495 2011-01-08 16:00:57 <noagendamarket> the flying spaghetti monster doesnt care
496 2011-01-08 16:01:10 <omglolbbq> for you have sinned, you must feel the love of God by punishment in hell
497 2011-01-08 16:01:16 <kiba> Buddha isn't a god
498 2011-01-08 16:01:21 <kiba> he's just an mortal
499 2011-01-08 16:01:35 <kiba> but his followers deify him
500 2011-01-08 16:01:47 <kiba> so Buddhism isn't supposed to have God
501 2011-01-08 16:02:51 <omglolbbq> most buddhists have gods
502 2011-01-08 16:03:11 <kiba> MOST
503 2011-01-08 16:03:30 <omglolbbq> just watch The Monkey King
504 2011-01-08 16:06:15 <kiba> time to make me bitcoin money
505 2011-01-08 16:06:19 <r3dMBA> deities != god a creator
506 2011-01-08 16:06:44 <omglolbbq> ok have fun kiba, don't get sore
507 2011-01-08 16:06:47 <kiba> I found the Christian God to be a very abstract entity
508 2011-01-08 16:07:15 <kiba> except maybe Jesus
509 2011-01-08 16:07:38 <kiba> however
510 2011-01-08 16:07:51 <kiba> I am inclined to believe that Jesus is just a very crazed Jew
511 2011-01-08 16:08:45 <newsham> is it really crazy to want to bring down the roman empire?
512 2011-01-08 16:09:10 <newsham> or to be disatisfied with the religeous leaders?
513 2011-01-08 16:12:24 <noagendamarket> statism and religion are the same
514 2011-01-08 16:12:33 <noagendamarket> the government is god
515 2011-01-08 16:12:48 <noagendamarket> its all the same shit different shovel
516 2011-01-08 16:13:49 <newsham> true or not, jesus still railed separately against rome and the jewish priests.
517 2011-01-08 16:13:59 <EvanR> lol
518 2011-01-08 16:14:35 <EvanR> jesus in contemporary political context
519 2011-01-08 16:14:50 <EvanR> never been done before
520 2011-01-08 16:15:21 <EvanR> noagendamarket: so we have a dual government in america?
521 2011-01-08 16:15:27 <newsham> i'm just responding to "[07:00] < kiba> I am inclined to believe that Jesus is just a very crazed Jew
522 2011-01-08 16:15:39 <newsham> who said anything about cotnemporary political context?
523 2011-01-08 16:15:52 <EvanR> newsham
524 2011-01-08 16:15:53 <noagendamarket> EvanR you have anarchy in America lol
525 2011-01-08 16:17:12 <newsham> speaking of jesus, why are you twisting my words? ;-)
526 2011-01-08 16:17:24 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: I wish
527 2011-01-08 16:17:25 <EvanR> get serious
528 2011-01-08 16:17:33 <EvanR> newsham: im not twisting anything
529 2011-01-08 16:17:54 <luke-jr> newsham: Jesus endorsed the rule of Rome, actually
530 2011-01-08 16:18:15 <noagendamarket> no he didnt
531 2011-01-08 16:19:59 <noagendamarket> You realise most of the ruling class are pedophiles
532 2011-01-08 16:20:15 <luke-jr> and while He was the victim of the corrupt high priest, He established a new Church to take authority in religious matters
533 2011-01-08 16:20:46 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: that speaks more of the rulers personally, than the priciple of authority
534 2011-01-08 16:21:06 <noagendamarket> well power corrupts
535 2011-01-08 16:21:10 <newsham> luke: afaik jesus didnt establish any church
536 2011-01-08 16:21:15 <luke-jr> newsham: He did.
537 2011-01-08 16:21:32 <noagendamarket> mary established the church
538 2011-01-08 16:21:39 <luke-jr> it is historically undeniable that Jesus established the Catholic Church
539 2011-01-08 16:21:39 <noagendamarket> :)-
540 2011-01-08 16:21:58 <EvanR> no he didnt
541 2011-01-08 16:22:00 <lfm> and peter?
542 2011-01-08 16:22:09 <EvanR> peter and friends
543 2011-01-08 16:22:09 <luke-jr> lfm: He made St. Peter the first pope
544 2011-01-08 16:22:12 <newsham> no conversation on irc goes unpunished...
545 2011-01-08 16:23:52 <noagendamarket> god is the original ceiling cat
546 2011-01-08 16:23:59 <noagendamarket> watching you masturbate
547 2011-01-08 16:24:04 <noagendamarket> :)
548 2011-01-08 16:24:54 <newsham> we prefer "mining"
549 2011-01-08 16:25:08 <noagendamarket> lol same diff
550 2011-01-08 16:25:28 <noagendamarket> its the size of the gpu that matters
551 2011-01-08 16:27:23 <kiba> noagendamarket: you mean, those Catholic preists?
552 2011-01-08 16:27:34 <noagendamarket> the peter files
553 2011-01-08 16:27:42 <kiba> those molesting Catholic preists
554 2011-01-08 16:27:54 <kiba> ya know, if you say to your children, "APOLOGIZE!"
555 2011-01-08 16:28:05 <kiba> all you're doing is teaching them how to look....sorry
556 2011-01-08 16:28:12 <kiba> but not actually...SORRY
557 2011-01-08 16:28:34 <kiba> I imagine all these Catholic priests do everything to look sorry
558 2011-01-08 16:29:33 <noagendamarket> well they arent allowed to be human
559 2011-01-08 16:29:38 <noagendamarket> thats what results
560 2011-01-08 16:29:49 <newsham> [07:14] < luke-jr> lfm: He made St. Peter the first pope
561 2011-01-08 16:29:51 <newsham> wrong
562 2011-01-08 16:30:05 <newsham> thats what you get for learning history from a sunday school teacher
563 2011-01-08 16:30:25 <kiba> but anyway
564 2011-01-08 16:30:34 <kiba> it made me grew up to be an anti-authoritian
565 2011-01-08 16:30:42 <kiba> and to be rather unapolgetic in some of my actions
566 2011-01-08 16:30:50 <luke-jr> newsham: nope, that's what happened
567 2011-01-08 16:31:09 <kiba> But I do have my own moral compass
568 2011-01-08 16:31:18 <kiba> for when things actually matter
569 2011-01-08 16:31:20 <lfm> newsham you misquote me
570 2011-01-08 16:31:33 <kiba> otherwise, I am just a greedy jackass
571 2011-01-08 16:32:47 <kiba> I also hate sharing
572 2011-01-08 16:32:51 <kiba> it diminish my material wealth
573 2011-01-08 16:33:03 <kiba> usually
574 2011-01-08 16:33:27 <lfm> kiba so you're against open source
575 2011-01-08 16:33:31 <kiba> no
576 2011-01-08 16:33:39 <kiba> sharing open source software make me wealthier
577 2011-01-08 16:33:44 <kiba> it doesn't diminish my material wealth
578 2011-01-08 16:33:49 <kiba> and increase my reputation
579 2011-01-08 16:33:54 <kiba> which increase my material wealth
580 2011-01-08 16:34:00 <kiba> otherwise, I am not sharing things like food
581 2011-01-08 16:34:06 <newsham> plus 8 greed and a plus 5 reputation
582 2011-01-08 16:34:08 <kiba> toys or lego
583 2011-01-08 16:34:14 <lfm> but you hate sharing
584 2011-01-08 16:34:49 <EvanR> kiba is the next saddam hussein
585 2011-01-08 16:35:26 <kiba> lfm: I guess it make me an enemy of communism
586 2011-01-08 16:35:26 <noagendamarket> lol
587 2011-01-08 16:35:31 <kiba> communism is about SHARING, right?
588 2011-01-08 16:35:34 <kiba> and I don't like SHARING
589 2011-01-08 16:35:41 <ThomasV> kiba: sharing your wife/GF will not decrease your material wealth
590 2011-01-08 16:35:46 <kiba> I am enraged when I have to share
591 2011-01-08 16:35:56 <noagendamarket> ThomasV it can
592 2011-01-08 16:36:00 <noagendamarket> :)
593 2011-01-08 16:36:01 <EvanR> yes
594 2011-01-08 16:36:06 <EvanR> i can attest to that
595 2011-01-08 16:36:10 <kiba> I want exclusive access to pussies
596 2011-01-08 16:36:11 <noagendamarket> if your wife is a prostitute
597 2011-01-08 16:36:13 <hacim> interesting development discussion :)
598 2011-01-08 16:36:16 <kiba> err
599 2011-01-08 16:36:25 <kiba> 100% exclusive eassy to a pussy
600 2011-01-08 16:36:31 <EvanR> ThomasV: when she finally leaves you and takes most of your shit with her, and all your friends
601 2011-01-08 16:36:31 <kiba> access*
602 2011-01-08 16:36:43 <kiba> EvanR: don't worry, I don't have many friends
603 2011-01-08 16:36:53 <noagendamarket> just find a woman you hate and give her a house
604 2011-01-08 16:37:01 <noagendamarket> lol
605 2011-01-08 16:37:05 <ThomasV> EvanR: is that a consequence of sharing her ?
606 2011-01-08 16:37:13 <EvanR> maybe
607 2011-01-08 16:37:20 <kiba> human beings have jealousy issue
608 2011-01-08 16:37:29 <kiba> so sharing sex partner is likely to lead to conflict
609 2011-01-08 16:37:41 <EvanR> unless youre the king of egypt
610 2011-01-08 16:37:48 <EvanR> or wherever
611 2011-01-08 16:37:55 <kiba> you have incestious relations with your own sis, then
612 2011-01-08 16:38:02 <EvanR> and whoever else you want
613 2011-01-08 16:38:02 <lfm> but open source is about sharing
614 2011-01-08 16:38:06 <EvanR> no conflict at all
615 2011-01-08 16:38:44 <kiba> I am not a very sharing person I guess
616 2011-01-08 16:39:03 <kiba> not into this self-destruction thing
617 2011-01-08 16:39:11 <noagendamarket> depends if its gpl or not
618 2011-01-08 16:39:19 <kiba> I hate the GPL
619 2011-01-08 16:39:20 <EvanR> since theres no bitcoin-offtopic, seems appropriate
620 2011-01-08 16:39:23 <kiba> GPL IS EVIL!
621 2011-01-08 16:39:49 <luke-jr> so again, is there *any* sane way I can accept BitCoin payments from someone who only has a Visa prepaid card? XD
622 2011-01-08 16:40:10 <EvanR> visa cards have for example USD on them, not bitcoins
623 2011-01-08 16:40:39 <ThomasV> luke-jr: on a website ?
624 2011-01-08 16:40:50 <luke-jr> ThomasV: as opposed to?
625 2011-01-08 16:41:07 <ThomasV> .. to IRL
626 2011-01-08 16:41:17 <luke-jr> he's in Indiana
627 2011-01-08 16:41:20 <luke-jr> I'm in Florida
628 2011-01-08 16:41:34 <ThomasV> oh, that's IRL I guess
629 2011-01-08 16:41:50 <noagendamarket> If you could send bitcoins and it filled a debit card would you do it?
630 2011-01-08 16:42:08 <luke-jr> O.o
631 2011-01-08 16:42:28 <ThomasV> noagendamarket: that would be nice indeed
632 2011-01-08 16:42:31 <luke-jr> so I'm trying to avoid setting up my merchant-side Google Checkout account :p
633 2011-01-08 16:42:53 <noagendamarket> ;)
634 2011-01-08 16:43:17 <luke-jr> but if there's no way for this guy to pay me with BitCoin, I need to accept the USD :p
635 2011-01-08 16:43:37 <noagendamarket> visa debit card
636 2011-01-08 16:45:25 <noagendamarket> you can fill debit cards with liberty reserve at some sites
637 2011-01-08 16:46:49 <EvanR> youre trying to go from USD -> BTC -> USD ?
638 2011-01-08 16:48:20 <lfm> luke-jr sure before you send the btc get the cc number and spend it on something online... then if that works out, send the btc
639 2011-01-08 16:49:07 <luke-jr> lfm: &
640 2011-01-08 16:49:28 <luke-jr> EvanR: I'm trying to get him to go USD->BTC so I can get paid in BTC
641 2011-01-08 16:49:51 <EvanR> bitcoingateway may be accepting cc now
642 2011-01-08 16:50:00 <luke-jr> bitcoingateway is down
643 2011-01-08 16:50:11 <EvanR> dwolla?
644 2011-01-08 16:50:14 <luke-jr> has been for the week since i learned about btc
645 2011-01-08 16:50:15 <luke-jr> dwolla?
646 2011-01-08 16:50:48 <EvanR> he can send you the usd with dwolla, and you can buy the btc on otc with it
647 2011-01-08 16:51:20 <EvanR> theres also moneypak
648 2011-01-08 16:51:53 <EvanR> he buys the money pak with his card, and sends you the usd 'securely'
649 2011-01-08 16:53:03 <luke-jr> so in other words, just give up on accepting BTC? :P
650 2011-01-08 16:53:21 <EvanR> im worried about the customer experience here
651 2011-01-08 16:53:38 <EvanR> if he doesnt have btc, he cant rightly pay you with it
652 2011-01-08 16:53:50 <Cusipzzz> EvanR: wise
653 2011-01-08 16:54:25 <Cusipzzz> tell him to start mining imo =)
654 2011-01-08 16:54:43 <EvanR> "come back in 1.7 years on average plz"
655 2011-01-08 16:54:53 <lfm> luke-jr I understand. You want btc cuz you dont want to deal with the riscs of credit cards and crap
656 2011-01-08 16:55:09 <Cusipzzz> tell him to buy a couple 5970s, he'll be able to pay in no time
657 2011-01-08 16:55:38 <luke-jr> lfm: really just want BTC to get some BTC XD
658 2011-01-08 16:56:02 <EvanR> youre in a better position to get btc with usd than a random customer i think
659 2011-01-08 16:56:24 <Cusipzzz> what are you selling? offer it to the btc community instead of this USD guy
660 2011-01-08 16:57:32 <kiba> Madhatter?
661 2011-01-08 16:57:57 <noagendamarket> luke jr I can get you some btc from mt gox if you have paypal
662 2011-01-08 16:58:09 <noagendamarket> not much though....
663 2011-01-08 16:58:28 <ThomasV> yes ! BUY !! BUY !!
664 2011-01-08 16:58:39 <AAA_awright> "Moneypak" (what a stupid name) costs quite a bit to even use though
665 2011-01-08 16:58:41 <Cusipzzz> lol
666 2011-01-08 16:59:05 <EvanR> AAA_awright: yeah well were talking about easy and safe, not cheap necessarily
667 2011-01-08 16:59:12 <EvanR> dwolla also might work
668 2011-01-08 16:59:32 <noagendamarket> when is dwolla going international?
669 2011-01-08 16:59:37 <EvanR> moneypak is cheaper than western union ;)
670 2011-01-08 16:59:43 <AAA_awright> I mean, if that's the cost of doing it easily, by all means, but pfft really? Is PayPal going to go under sometime soon?
671 2011-01-08 16:59:48 <Cusipzzz> i like the idea of seeding a bunch of mybitcoin accounts with different amounts of coins and selling the credentials like BTC debit cards
672 2011-01-08 16:59:54 <EvanR> paypal isnt 'safe'
673 2011-01-08 16:59:56 <AAA_awright> Oh wait that's what BitCoin is for
674 2011-01-08 16:59:57 <Cusipzzz> noagendamarket: dwolla is never going international
675 2011-01-08 17:00:34 <ThomasV> luke-jr: I am not sure if you can request that your client pays with bitcoins , because usd have legal tender
676 2011-01-08 17:00:40 <Cusipzzz> once you go intl, have to comply with all sorts of sanctions, aml, patriot act rules. way too much overhead for small co
677 2011-01-08 17:00:51 <noagendamarket> ya unfortunately
678 2011-01-08 17:00:54 <luke-jr> Cusipzzz: hosting
679 2011-01-08 17:01:00 <Cusipzzz> plus diff banking rules for each juridiction
680 2011-01-08 17:01:09 <Cusipzzz> luke-jr: vps?
681 2011-01-08 17:01:11 <noagendamarket> nothing saying they cant set up an offshore company
682 2011-01-08 17:01:21 <noagendamarket> thats not connected
683 2011-01-08 17:01:24 <noagendamarket> lol
684 2011-01-08 17:01:33 <luke-jr> Cusipzzz: yeah
685 2011-01-08 17:04:15 <luke-jr> ThomasV: only hard cash is legal tender, not CCs ;)
686 2011-01-08 17:04:28 <EvanR> slick
687 2011-01-08 17:05:18 <luke-jr> well, it looks liek I can't use GCheckout anyway
688 2011-01-08 17:05:32 <kiba> luke-jr trying to buy bitcoin?
689 2011-01-08 17:05:32 <newsham> why is it so hard to get dollars into bitcoin?
690 2011-01-08 17:05:33 <luke-jr> since they require 3 days to verify checking account to deposit to
691 2011-01-08 17:05:37 <kiba> he's in Sweden right?
692 2011-01-08 17:05:41 <luke-jr> kiba: trying to earn bitcoin
693 2011-01-08 17:05:45 <luke-jr> no, Indiana
694 2011-01-08 17:05:51 <luke-jr> newsham: because USD isn't real :p
695 2011-01-08 17:05:59 <TD> why can't you use checkout?
696 2011-01-08 17:06:05 <EvanR> ah *adds fast to the list of requirements*
697 2011-01-08 17:06:08 <kiba> paypal.
698 2011-01-08 17:06:08 <newsham> lukejr: right, and jesus started the church.
699 2011-01-08 17:06:14 <noagendamarket> because google shot everyone down
700 2011-01-08 17:06:27 <kiba> noagendamarket: no surprise
701 2011-01-08 17:06:29 <luke-jr> TD: customer wants to get service today :p
702 2011-01-08 17:06:32 <kiba> Google is an AI company
703 2011-01-08 17:06:41 <TD> oh, you mean there's a setup time you don't want to wait for
704 2011-01-08 17:06:46 <kiba> with an overzealous air defense shield
705 2011-01-08 17:06:47 <luke-jr> kiba: he said PayPal put a limit on him or smth
706 2011-01-08 17:06:49 <TD> i thought you meant you'd been turned down or something
707 2011-01-08 17:06:52 <noagendamarket> besides google is coming out with their own micropayments model
708 2011-01-08 17:06:57 <luke-jr> TD: right
709 2011-01-08 17:07:02 <noagendamarket> why would they accept bitcoin?
710 2011-01-08 17:07:06 <kiba> noagendamarket: we're d00med?
711 2011-01-08 17:07:11 <EvanR> payment method must be easy, safe, and executable right now with no prior preparation
712 2011-01-08 17:07:11 <TD> noagendamarket: google is?
713 2011-01-08 17:07:16 <noagendamarket> no fuck google lol
714 2011-01-08 17:07:16 <TD> noagendamarket: where did you read that?
715 2011-01-08 17:07:31 <noagendamarket> isnt it obvious?
716 2011-01-08 17:07:43 <kiba> obvious what?
717 2011-01-08 17:08:13 <TD> noagendamarket: obvious that google is developing a micropayments system?
718 2011-01-08 17:08:18 <TD> no ..... not really obvious to me
719 2011-01-08 17:09:32 <noagendamarket> http://www.niemanlab.org/pdfs/Google.pdf
720 2011-01-08 17:10:41 <TD> interesting
721 2011-01-08 17:11:04 <noagendamarket> no its not because its centralised
722 2011-01-08 17:11:07 <noagendamarket> pffft
723 2011-01-08 17:11:12 <TD> would be cool to have
724 2011-01-08 17:11:13 <TD> well, yeah
725 2011-01-08 17:11:18 <TD> the entire financial system is centralized today
726 2011-01-08 17:11:29 <TD> how else would you suggest launching an actual micropayments system?
727 2011-01-08 17:11:33 <TD> bitcoin is great but hardly big enough for that yet
728 2011-01-08 17:13:37 <noagendamarket> basically you extend credit based on risk
729 2011-01-08 17:14:00 <noagendamarket> so you might let someone have 5btc in good faith
730 2011-01-08 17:14:49 <noagendamarket> then they send the large amount while the microtransactions are recorded
731 2011-01-08 17:15:24 <noagendamarket> basically a clearance house could settle between merchants/btc banks
732 2011-01-08 17:15:39 <TD> that sounds the same as what the pdf describes, basically, except for bitcoin i think you'd just do the micropayments directly
733 2011-01-08 17:16:03 <noagendamarket> that might not scale though for bitcoin
734 2011-01-08 17:16:09 <TD> for the existing infrastructure you need big players like google. bitcoin wouldn't, i think.
735 2011-01-08 17:16:16 <TD> bitcoin can scale pretty well i think
736 2011-01-08 17:16:34 <TD> not if we assume all nodes run on random peoples desktops
737 2011-01-08 17:16:52 <TD> but if we assume a p2p network that looks more like kazaa, with thin clients and supernodes, it could scale up pretty nicely
738 2011-01-08 17:17:11 <noagendamarket> I assume people would have onsite wallets
739 2011-01-08 17:17:51 <TD> yes, local wallets.
740 2011-01-08 17:17:59 <TD> you don't need to run a full node to keep the wallet to yourself
741 2011-01-08 17:19:15 <TD> oh, and by the way. i work for google, so you can consider us as having our fingers in every pie ;)
742 2011-01-08 17:19:27 <noagendamarket> what if you didnt send a bitcoin but instead sent a username and password which opens a wallet?
743 2011-01-08 17:19:29 <noagendamarket> lol
744 2011-01-08 17:19:42 <noagendamarket> then you dont need to send a bitcoin at all
745 2011-01-08 17:20:36 <noagendamarket> If you work for google prove it lol
746 2011-01-08 17:20:48 <luke-jr> TD: Google is tempting, but they won't buy me! :P
747 2011-01-08 17:20:54 <noagendamarket> change the google logo to a btc one lol
748 2011-01-08 17:21:09 <TD> noagendamarket: haha, good suggestion :-) maybe on its third birthday or something
749 2011-01-08 17:21:24 <luke-jr> &
750 2011-01-08 17:21:35 <noagendamarket> :)
751 2011-01-08 17:21:37 <luke-jr> TD: now I don't believe you
752 2011-01-08 17:21:42 <TD> bitcoin has to get a lot bigger first
753 2011-01-08 17:21:43 <TD> luke-jr: i'm kidding :)
754 2011-01-08 17:21:47 <TD> luke-jr: we can all make suggestions for the logo
755 2011-01-08 17:21:48 <luke-jr> most people who work for Google don't have that kind of power :P
756 2011-01-08 17:21:54 <TD> obviously we can't just randomly change it by ourself
757 2011-01-08 17:21:57 <EvanR> google checkout may not provide any protection at all for selling bitcoins
758 2011-01-08 17:22:15 <luke-jr> EvanR: if I get it as USD, it's staying USD
759 2011-01-08 17:22:22 <noagendamarket> wouldnt it be similar tyo paypal?
760 2011-01-08 17:22:43 <noagendamarket> its up to visa if they do chargebacks
761 2011-01-08 17:22:53 <EvanR> noagendamarket: for tangible goods they have chargeback protection and fraud detection
762 2011-01-08 17:23:08 <luke-jr> do they recognize BTC as tangible goods?
763 2011-01-08 17:23:11 <noagendamarket> well there you go....
764 2011-01-08 17:23:13 <EvanR> visa chargebacks google, and google doesnt chargeback you
765 2011-01-08 17:23:21 <luke-jr> EvanR: Google can.
766 2011-01-08 17:23:41 <EvanR> if they end up charging you, you also pay 10 bucks, but the ad says in 99% of cases its the buyers fault
767 2011-01-08 17:23:46 <TD> i think the ToS says no currency transactions
768 2011-01-08 17:23:47 <TD> not sure why
769 2011-01-08 17:23:49 <noagendamarket> in communist russia chargebacks google you
770 2011-01-08 17:23:52 <luke-jr> they look at it and make a decision whether to chargeback you PLUS A FEE, or drop it
771 2011-01-08 17:24:02 <EvanR> luke-jr: no, btc is not a tangible good
772 2011-01-08 17:24:07 <luke-jr> I had 2 chargebacks cuz someone paid me with stolen CC once
773 2011-01-08 17:24:14 <luke-jr> Google basically told me I'd be best off just refunding it all
774 2011-01-08 17:24:17 <EvanR> chargeback protection is not offered for digital content
775 2011-01-08 17:24:27 <luke-jr> I didn't; eventually they resolved it in my faovur
776 2011-01-08 17:24:34 <noagendamarket> Can you get a  chargeback if you get paid from a bank accouint?
777 2011-01-08 17:24:44 <EvanR> thats pretty cool
778 2011-01-08 17:24:45 <luke-jr> EvanR: but BTC isn't merely content
779 2011-01-08 17:24:54 <luke-jr> you can verify BTC was transferred
780 2011-01-08 17:24:55 <EvanR> luke-jr: i would be interested to see what google actually says about it
781 2011-01-08 17:25:10 <luke-jr> although I suppose not to whom
782 2011-01-08 17:25:27 <luke-jr> but if the customer signs a paper with the destination bitcoin address&
783 2011-01-08 17:25:34 <EvanR> you records can say that you sent it to wherever they asked
784 2011-01-08 17:26:00 <EvanR> what they typed in is on your records, where you sent it is in the blockchain
785 2011-01-08 17:26:19 <EvanR> but i have a feeling google would give a flying ...
786 2011-01-08 17:26:24 <EvanR> wouldnt
787 2011-01-08 17:26:28 <noagendamarket> now we need third party record keeping
788 2011-01-08 17:26:30 <luke-jr> anyhow, I'm not in the business of selling BTC
789 2011-01-08 17:26:33 <luke-jr> I don't have any BTC to sell
790 2011-01-08 17:26:35 <luke-jr> :P
791 2011-01-08 17:27:03 <luke-jr> but IMO, getting a signed slip with destination address, credit card info + CVV2
792 2011-01-08 17:27:05 <luke-jr> should be good
793 2011-01-08 17:27:14 <EvanR> signing stuff over the internet?
794 2011-01-08 17:27:20 <EvanR> for regular people at least?
795 2011-01-08 17:27:23 <luke-jr> maybe a statement to the effect that the BitCoin algorithms are trusted
796 2011-01-08 17:27:34 <luke-jr> and a number of verifications considered to be "approval"
797 2011-01-08 17:27:38 <EvanR> you arent allowed to save the CVV
798 2011-01-08 17:27:38 <luke-jr> EvanR: no scanner?
799 2011-01-08 17:27:44 <EvanR> scanner???
800 2011-01-08 17:27:44 <noagendamarket> get them to upload 100 points of id
801 2011-01-08 17:27:57 <noagendamarket> and a utility bill
802 2011-01-08 17:28:08 <noagendamarket> that matches the id
803 2011-01-08 17:28:24 <luke-jr> &
804 2011-01-08 17:28:25 <EvanR> customers with gpg can sign something, just websites are equipped with that, and people dont have that
805 2011-01-08 17:28:35 <lfm> and get their grandmother to swear they are a good boy
806 2011-01-08 17:28:36 <EvanR> are not equipped, god dammit
807 2011-01-08 17:28:47 <luke-jr> EvanR: PGP won't work
808 2011-01-08 17:28:50 <Cusipzzz> provide blood type, dna sample, etc
809 2011-01-08 17:28:54 <luke-jr> well, maybe
810 2011-01-08 17:29:02 <noagendamarket> when I got a currency fair account i had to send them a scan of my id and proof of address
811 2011-01-08 17:29:18 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: complain
812 2011-01-08 17:29:23 <noagendamarket> its good enough to open a bank account
813 2011-01-08 17:29:30 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: it's a violation of Visa and MasterCard merchant contract for them to ask you for ID
814 2011-01-08 17:29:33 <luke-jr> even in person
815 2011-01-08 17:29:46 <noagendamarket> well thats retarded
816 2011-01-08 17:29:58 <noagendamarket> no wonder they get fraud
817 2011-01-08 17:30:27 <luke-jr> not everyone has ID, and it's a selling point for Visa/MC
818 2011-01-08 17:30:44 <luke-jr> they ARE required to compare the signature on the back of the card, with the one on the receipt
819 2011-01-08 17:30:49 <noagendamarket> well...you dont need id for bitcoin
820 2011-01-08 17:30:56 <EvanR> no one checks signatures in practice
821 2011-01-08 17:31:50 <luke-jr> EvanR: I've seen people.
822 2011-01-08 17:32:02 <luke-jr> I also refuse to show ID.
823 2011-01-08 17:32:19 <luke-jr> I'll call 1-800-VISA-911 if I have to
824 2011-01-08 17:32:22 <EvanR> really
825 2011-01-08 17:32:29 <EvanR> youre one of those customers ;)
826 2011-01-08 17:32:34 <Cusipzzz> lol
827 2011-01-08 17:33:00 <EvanR> when i worked at walmart, i would make fun of you with the next customer after you left
828 2011-01-08 17:33:09 <luke-jr> make fun all you want.
829 2011-01-08 17:33:20 <luke-jr> I respect contracts, and expect you to also
830 2011-01-08 17:33:21 <EvanR> not that i ever asked for ID
831 2011-01-08 17:33:33 <luke-jr> if the contract says you can't ask for ID, you won't see mine
832 2011-01-08 17:33:49 <newsham> hmm.. so do people normally do something crazy like paypal -> some exchanger -> liberty reserve -> mtgox -> bitcoin   to get dollars into bitcoin?
833 2011-01-08 17:34:02 <EvanR> maybe if its a lot of money
834 2011-01-08 17:34:02 <TD> i just bought some in #bitcoin-otc
835 2011-01-08 17:34:06 <EvanR> no, theyd wire it
836 2011-01-08 17:34:09 <luke-jr> newsham: tbh, I'd sooner mail cash/check
837 2011-01-08 17:34:23 <luke-jr> EvanR: wiring is expensive
838 2011-01-08 17:34:34 <EvanR> for a lot of money its more efficient
839 2011-01-08 17:34:41 <luke-jr> true
840 2011-01-08 17:34:54 <luke-jr> I was surprised to see that there are over 1 mil USD in BTC already
841 2011-01-08 17:35:06 <Cusipzzz> 1.6 and counting
842 2011-01-08 17:35:16 <luke-jr> it's really much further along than I expected
843 2011-01-08 17:35:28 <TD> it's doing very well, but what really matters is the GDP
844 2011-01-08 17:35:33 <TD> not the total amount of currency in existence
845 2011-01-08 17:35:50 <luke-jr> Cusipzzz: 1.6 mil in USD?
846 2011-01-08 17:35:50 <TD> if there's $1M in coins but those coins don't circulate fast enough, it's still not progress
847 2011-01-08 17:36:01 <EvanR> mercantilism!
848 2011-01-08 17:36:07 <Cusipzzz> http://bitcoinwatch.com/
849 2011-01-08 17:36:07 <EvanR> more money == more wealth
850 2011-01-08 17:36:18 <luke-jr> TD: well, it's hard to circulate when my customers don't have any way to get BTC to spend
851 2011-01-08 17:36:33 <TD> yeah. it's tough to build an economy from scratch :)
852 2011-01-08 17:36:44 <afed> they can mine on their gpus!
853 2011-01-08 17:36:46 <EvanR> luke-jr: if theres something difficult, make money by making it easy for people
854 2011-01-08 17:36:48 <TD> especially when many of the actors have established business in the "real" economy
855 2011-01-08 17:36:56 <Cusipzzz> luke-jr: mail cash, wire to mtgox, trade -otc for paypal, poker money, amazon.com credit, prepaid cards, almost anything
856 2011-01-08 17:37:01 <luke-jr> EvanR: How?
857 2011-01-08 17:37:07 <EvanR> good question
858 2011-01-08 17:37:15 <newsham> you cant simply multiply the current outstanding number of bitcoins by the current market price of a bitcoin
859 2011-01-08 17:37:32 <luke-jr> Cusipzzz: prepaid cards how?
860 2011-01-08 17:37:32 <newsham> i mean, you can, but you shouldnt trust the number you get out of it :)
861 2011-01-08 17:37:37 <EvanR> luke-jr: easy, fast, safe for both parties and USD may not be compatible
862 2011-01-08 17:38:00 <Cusipzzz> luke-jr: go to a gas station, by greendot card. someone in -otc will buy it for BTCs
863 2011-01-08 17:38:13 <Cusipzzz> buy*
864 2011-01-08 17:38:16 <EvanR> thats the moneypak i was talking about
865 2011-01-08 17:38:32 <EvanR> it does require the user to know how to operate IRC and trust it
866 2011-01-08 17:38:36 <luke-jr> Cusipzzz: like who?
867 2011-01-08 17:38:46 <luke-jr> the channel is silent :P
868 2011-01-08 17:38:57 <Cusipzzz> peopleare lurking =)
869 2011-01-08 17:39:01 <Cusipzzz> people*
870 2011-01-08 17:39:08 <hacim> who what?
871 2011-01-08 17:40:02 <luke-jr> how long would it take someone with a decent GPU miner to generate 25 BTC?
872 2011-01-08 17:40:32 <newsham> 25 days or less?
873 2011-01-08 17:40:42 <luke-jr> lol way too long >_<
874 2011-01-08 17:42:21 <lucky> with pooled mining, probably about 1 - 3 BTC a day
875 2011-01-08 17:43:16 <kiba> somebody needs to sell GPU cards for bitcoin!
876 2011-01-08 17:43:27 <ArtForz> define decent
877 2011-01-08 17:43:42 <lfm> luke-jr with a ati 5770 you can generate 50 btc in about 5 days
878 2011-01-08 17:43:44 <kiba> using bitcoin to buy bitcoin money tree aka GPUs
879 2011-01-08 17:43:46 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calc 310000
880 2011-01-08 17:43:54 <lfm> on average
881 2011-01-08 17:43:58 <Cusipzzz> bot is dead :/
882 2011-01-08 17:44:23 <luke-jr> lfm: that's with or without a pool?
883 2011-01-08 17:44:28 <noagendamarket> If anyone wants me to buy them a gpu you can send me the btc
884 2011-01-08 17:44:33 <kiba> bitcoin reporting staffed by bots apperantly have a high turnover rate
885 2011-01-08 17:44:37 <noagendamarket> :)
886 2011-01-08 17:44:41 <ArtForz> 2d14h for a 5870 or 6970
887 2011-01-08 17:44:44 <lfm> at current difficulty
888 2011-01-08 17:44:51 <lfm> luke-jr either way, a pool is a tiny bit of overhead so a bit less
889 2011-01-08 17:45:28 <lfm> more time, less btc
890 2011-01-08 17:45:56 <kiba> better to have 1 BTC now and later
891 2011-01-08 17:46:08 <kiba> money in the future should be discounted compared to money now
892 2011-01-08 17:46:18 <lfm> if you cant wait 5 days for your full share then ya, go pool
893 2011-01-08 17:46:23 <kiba> because of time preference theory dictating that human being prefer a things now rather than later
894 2011-01-08 17:46:33 <kiba> than later*
895 2011-01-08 17:46:57 <kiba> for luke-jr, it might be a cashflow issue
896 2011-01-08 17:47:45 <rlifchitz> any working opensource linux/nvidia miner?
897 2011-01-08 17:47:46 <lfm> yup for a more regular cash flow with less dependance on randomness then ya, go pool
898 2011-01-08 17:48:12 <luke-jr> rlifchitz: no
899 2011-01-08 17:48:23 <ArtForz> yes
900 2011-01-08 17:48:51 <noagendamarket> where does everyone buy their gpu's from?
901 2011-01-08 17:48:53 <luke-jr> ArtForz: he said open source
902 2011-01-08 17:48:55 <ArtForz> so?
903 2011-01-08 17:49:12 <luke-jr> ArtForz: there's no open source OpenCL yet is there?
904 2011-01-08 17:49:18 <ArtForz> just because the driver is a binary blob doesn't magically make the miner less open source
905 2011-01-08 17:49:30 <lfm> rlifchitz yes several. look in the forums
906 2011-01-08 17:49:31 <rlifchitz> any link?
907 2011-01-08 17:49:33 <lfm> rlifchitz but no open source drivers, just miners
908 2011-01-08 17:49:35 <rlifchitz> two many threads with bogus info
909 2011-01-08 17:49:36 <rlifchitz> too*
910 2011-01-08 17:49:37 <rlifchitz> just looking for an opensource miner
911 2011-01-08 17:49:39 <luke-jr> the whole miner isn'
912 2011-01-08 17:49:40 <lfm> rlifchitz you still need the proprietary video drivers to use the open source miners
913 2011-01-08 17:49:40 <rlifchitz> lfm: of course