1 2011-02-02 00:00:06 <andrew12^mac> hm
  2 2011-02-02 00:00:16 <andrew12^mac> are you trying to do a regexp?
  3 2011-02-02 00:00:28 <ArtForz> "now you got 2 problems"
  4 2011-02-02 00:00:51 <andrew12^mac> because i'm pretty sure you want ^gzip$ as your regexp
  5 2011-02-02 00:01:00 <andrew12^mac> ^ is start of string, $ is end of string
  6 2011-02-02 00:03:54 <Kiba> hi
  7 2011-02-02 00:04:05 <Kiba> my bitcoin about page said 0.3.14
  8 2011-02-02 00:04:33 <Kiba> clearly, I am running an ancient version of bitcoin
  9 2011-02-02 00:05:18 <andrew12^mac> LOL
 10 2011-02-02 00:07:35 <andrew12^mac> hmm
 11 2011-02-02 00:08:37 <andrew12^mac> https://github.com/andrew12/bitcoin -- what my tree looks like after merging monitorrecieved... but it won't compile: http://codepad.org/r4Rsz63a
 12 2011-02-02 00:10:34 <doublec> don't bother merging it - just check it out and use it. I don't think the branch is too old is it?
 13 2011-02-02 00:11:55 <andrew12^mac> jan 7
 14 2011-02-02 00:12:28 <jgarzik> andrew12^mac: no, "Accept-Encoding: deflate, gzip" is a common case
 15 2011-02-02 00:12:47 <jgarzik> 'gzip' in hdr works
 16 2011-02-02 00:13:09 <andrew12^mac> jgarzik: i don't even know what you're trying to do, so... :P
 17 2011-02-02 00:13:42 <jgarzik> andrew12^mac: talking about checkzip() in http://yyz.us/bitcoin/poold.py
 18 2011-02-02 00:16:24 <Kiba> ok
 19 2011-02-02 00:16:28 <Kiba> I have zero connections
 20 2011-02-02 00:16:32 <Kiba> for the moment
 21 2011-02-02 00:16:49 <Necr0s> HA!
 22 2011-02-02 00:16:59 <Necr0s> I fixed my remote miner problem.
 23 2011-02-02 00:17:09 <Kiba> hmm
 24 2011-02-02 00:17:24 <Necr0s> The cause being a nonexistent proxy server set in Windows's Internet Options.
 25 2011-02-02 00:17:45 <Necr0s> Man, I can't believe I beat my head against that for so long.
 26 2011-02-02 00:17:48 <Kiba> meanwhile, I am experiencing zero connections
 27 2011-02-02 00:18:56 <andrew12^mac> lol
 28 2011-02-02 00:19:05 <Necr0s> I only figured it out by using procmon.
 29 2011-02-02 00:19:07 <Kiba> what's so funny?
 30 2011-02-02 00:19:08 <andrew12^mac> Kiba: tried connecting directly to a node?
 31 2011-02-02 00:19:17 <andrew12^mac> via -addnode
 32 2011-02-02 00:19:23 <Necr0s> One of the last things I see it doing before it exits with an error is:
 33 2011-02-02 00:19:27 <Necr0s> 12:22:19.2170638 AM
 34 2011-02-02 00:19:31 <Kiba> andrew12^mac: which node?
 35 2011-02-02 00:19:40 <andrew12^mac> Kiba: any node
 36 2011-02-02 00:19:46 <Necr0s> ...well that was ugly, but you get the idea.
 37 2011-02-02 00:19:56 <Kiba> I don't know a node
 38 2011-02-02 00:19:59 <Kiba> do you?
 39 2011-02-02 00:20:12 <andrew12^mac> i'll have a node for you to connect to once this is done compiling
 40 2011-02-02 00:20:33 <andrew12^mac> (assuming it works)
 41 2011-02-02 00:20:43 <Necr0s> You can connect to my IRC IP.  I have one running.
 42 2011-02-02 00:20:45 <Necr0s> now
 43 2011-02-02 00:20:59 <andrew12> i have one running here but i think i screwed up my port forwarding stuff
 44 2011-02-02 00:21:19 <andrew12> well, my mom did
 45 2011-02-02 00:22:09 <andrew12> took me 5 guesses to get my router's user/pass stuff right heh
 46 2011-02-02 00:23:33 <andrew12> nope
 47 2011-02-02 00:23:40 <andrew12> 192.168.0.24 is still my desktop's ip, and bitcoin is checked
 48 2011-02-02 00:24:17 <andrew12> ...though the router+modem that i've got my main router hooked to isn't showing any clients
 49 2011-02-02 00:24:20 <andrew12> yet i'm on the internet right now
 50 2011-02-02 00:24:32 <andrew12> time to reboot it :P
 51 2011-02-02 00:30:20 <andrew12^mac> or not
 52 2011-02-02 00:30:27 <andrew12^mac> managed to get it working without rebooting it
 53 2011-02-02 00:30:30 <andrew12^mac> at least i think its working
 54 2011-02-02 00:31:26 <andrew12^mac> try adding 71.166.130.45 as a node and lemme know if it works
 55 2011-02-02 00:31:58 <andrew12> while i idly wait to see if the connections number goes up
 56 2011-02-02 00:34:09 <necrodearia> mtgox, http://code.google.com/p/kippo/ maybe you can set this up in relation to mtgox.com? ^_^
 57 2011-02-02 00:35:25 <jrabbit> necrodearia: lol
 58 2011-02-02 00:35:30 <jrabbit> why would thatr be needed?
 59 2011-02-02 00:35:32 <andrew12^mac> heh
 60 2011-02-02 00:35:53 <necrodearia> Maybe set up a fake bitcoin daemon to be accessible ^_^
 61 2011-02-02 00:36:06 <noagendamarket> lol
 62 2011-02-02 00:37:34 <Kiba> it seem that I have no connections at all
 63 2011-02-02 00:38:30 <noagendamarket> they might get excited when they think theyve got over 9000 bitcoins but it turns out they didnt we can point and l;augh
 64 2011-02-02 00:40:11 <Kiba> It seem that my bitcoin client is not connecting to anybody
 65 2011-02-02 00:42:47 <andrew12^mac> Kiba: did you try connecting to 71.166.130.45?
 66 2011-02-02 00:42:59 <andrew12^mac> (my ip, still no idea if it works)
 67 2011-02-02 00:43:35 <andrew12> it must work
 68 2011-02-02 00:43:40 <andrew12> 66 connections :P
 69 2011-02-02 00:43:46 <andrew12> 67
 70 2011-02-02 00:44:53 <Kiba> bitcoin -addnode 71.166.130.45
 71 2011-02-02 00:45:06 <newsham> http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/mtgox/
 72 2011-02-02 00:45:10 <newsham> goofin off w/ html5.
 73 2011-02-02 00:45:32 <andrew12^mac> ooh
 74 2011-02-02 00:45:42 <newsham> updates in realtime.
 75 2011-02-02 00:45:54 <andrew12^mac> newsham: make the columns on the right side be centered at the @
 76 2011-02-02 00:45:57 <slush> newsham: does not work in ff
 77 2011-02-02 00:46:14 <andrew12^mac> works in chrome
 78 2011-02-02 00:46:35 <newsham> slush: whats error console say?  i can prob fix
 79 2011-02-02 00:46:43 <newsham> dont have ffox handy here at the moment though
 80 2011-02-02 00:47:09 <slush> newsham: heh, websocket is not defined
 81 2011-02-02 00:47:16 <slush> probably cannot be solved easily ;)
 82 2011-02-02 00:47:26 <newsham> oh.. heh :)
 83 2011-02-02 00:47:28 <newsham> run in chrome ;)
 84 2011-02-02 00:47:39 <andrew12^mac> no errors in chrome :P
 85 2011-02-02 00:47:43 <slush> btw what is on mtgox.com:8080?
 86 2011-02-02 00:47:54 <newsham> it streams updates over webscoket
 87 2011-02-02 00:48:09 <slush> how so? Some new feature?
 88 2011-02-02 00:48:15 <newsham> in chrome javascript console you can check out the "lastmsg' variable to see whats in it
 89 2011-02-02 00:48:20 <slush> I know only trade api
 90 2011-02-02 00:48:33 <newsham> it passes over some json data, server push instead of client pull
 91 2011-02-02 00:48:34 <slush> newsham: you are connected to mtgox somehow?
 92 2011-02-02 00:48:42 <newsham> no, i emailed asking
 93 2011-02-02 00:48:44 <newsham> about streaming
 94 2011-02-02 00:48:48 <slush> wow, nice!
 95 2011-02-02 00:49:07 <slush> so it is new experimental feature
 96 2011-02-02 00:49:12 <newsham> arent there some recent ffox's with websocket yet?
 97 2011-02-02 00:50:11 <slush> don't know
 98 2011-02-02 00:50:42 <doublec> websockets worked in firefox 4 but have been disabled
 99 2011-02-02 00:50:46 <doublec> for security reasons
100 2011-02-02 00:50:53 <doublec> chrome is disabling theire support too
101 2011-02-02 00:51:13 <andrew12^mac> probably because of xps
102 2011-02-02 00:51:27 <doublec> you can enable it in firefox 4 by going into about:config
103 2011-02-02 00:51:35 <doublec> and setting network.websocket.enabled to true
104 2011-02-02 00:52:08 <doublec> and network.websocket.override-security-block to true
105 2011-02-02 00:52:13 <andrew12^mac> someone should write a javascript miner :P
106 2011-02-02 00:52:23 <doublec> see here: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/WebSockets
107 2011-02-02 00:52:25 <newsham> yah i've heard people say that a few times
108 2011-02-02 00:52:43 <newsham> so that shady people can steal js cpu time while you sit on web pages
109 2011-02-02 00:52:49 <newsham> as if theres not enough shadiness on the interwebs already
110 2011-02-02 00:53:13 <doublec> this is a post about the issues: http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/2010/12/disabling-websockets-for-firefox-4/
111 2011-02-02 00:53:38 <andrew12^mac> how about node.js? :p
112 2011-02-02 00:53:44 <slush> andrew12 flash miner would be better
113 2011-02-02 00:53:51 <slush> new flash has also limited GPU support...
114 2011-02-02 00:53:55 <andrew12^mac> heh
115 2011-02-02 00:54:17 <andrew12^mac> hmm
116 2011-02-02 00:55:32 <andrew12^mac> slush: if someone were to call getwork repeatedly with the same data on your pool (hash woudl be the same) would it count as a share still? that'd probably be an easy way for someone to get tons of free shares if not
117 2011-02-02 00:55:37 <andrew12^mac> er if so*
118 2011-02-02 00:55:38 <Necr0s> hmm indeed
119 2011-02-02 00:56:12 <slush> andrew12 hmm, what do you think?
120 2011-02-02 00:56:15 <Necr0s> So, uh, tell me a bit about this RPC interface.
121 2011-02-02 00:56:19 <ArtForz> dude, if it's THAT obvious, someone probably already thought about it
122 2011-02-02 00:56:23 <slush> I mean - you really think there is SUCH hole? :)
123 2011-02-02 00:56:30 <andrew12^mac> slush: I have no idea :P
124 2011-02-02 00:56:58 <Necr0s> Specifically, how important is it to have a non-guessable password for it if you have it exposed to the internets at large for some reason?
125 2011-02-02 00:57:21 <andrew12^mac> newsham: very?
126 2011-02-02 00:57:32 <newsham> ?
127 2011-02-02 00:57:37 <andrew12^mac> Necr0s**
128 2011-02-02 00:57:39 <andrew12^mac> sorry newsham :P
129 2011-02-02 00:57:43 <newsham> np
130 2011-02-02 00:57:51 <Necr0s> I guess there wouldn't be an option to use a password if it weren't.
131 2011-02-02 00:58:08 <andrew12^mac> hehe
132 2011-02-02 00:58:21 <Necr0s> What kind of things could someone do to me using it?  Steal my coins?
133 2011-02-02 00:58:34 <andrew12^mac> of course
134 2011-02-02 00:58:51 <andrew12^mac> that's the point-- to be able to send coins
135 2011-02-02 00:58:57 <andrew12^mac> via an api
136 2011-02-02 00:59:01 <Necr0s> 'k.  I'll keep that in mind.
137 2011-02-02 00:59:07 <andrew12^mac> read this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_(JSON-RPC)
138 2011-02-02 00:59:12 <Necr0s> The only use I'm familiar with is the getwork thing for remote miners.
139 2011-02-02 00:59:28 <Necr0s> That looks like just the ticket.
140 2011-02-02 00:59:40 <newsham> you can use json to set up xfers.  also with patch you can use it to fetch info about the block chain
141 2011-02-02 00:59:48 <newsham> ie. history of xactions and difficulty
142 2011-02-02 01:00:12 <andrew12^mac> why is rpc.cpp taking forever to compile
143 2011-02-02 01:00:49 <newsham> you have billyrubins in your cpu
144 2011-02-02 01:01:08 <andrew12^mac> not my cpu :P
145 2011-02-02 01:01:14 <andrew12^mac> its on a vps
146 2011-02-02 01:02:17 <andrew12^mac> Necr0s: you might also want https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list
147 2011-02-02 01:07:54 <newsham> if anyone plays with the mtgox graph stuff (its all .js so you have all the src codes already) and has improvements or ideas, let me know
148 2011-02-02 01:08:32 <Kiba> yeah biatch!
149 2011-02-02 01:08:43 <Kiba> I now have 707.67 BTC!
150 2011-02-02 01:10:20 <andrew12^mac> !
151 2011-02-02 01:10:29 <Cusipzzz> how many is that in Tonal? /ducks
152 2011-02-02 01:10:47 <andrew12^mac> 0, because tonal is irrelevent
153 2011-02-02 01:11:00 <andrew12^mac> *ducks*
154 2011-02-02 01:11:17 <Cusipzzz> don't think he's here...we can stop /ducking
155 2011-02-02 01:13:57 <MT`AwAy> you mean luke-jr ?
156 2011-02-02 01:14:05 <Cusipzzz> ya
157 2011-02-02 01:14:06 <andrew12^mac> MT`AwAy: SSSSHHHHHH!
158 2011-02-02 01:14:10 <MT`AwAy> :D
159 2011-02-02 01:14:13 <Cusipzzz> ohboy
160 2011-02-02 01:14:14 <Cusipzzz> lol
161 2011-02-02 01:16:55 <doublec> I don't think luke-jr likes the tone of this discussion...
162 2011-02-02 01:17:11 <luke-jr> fwiw, Kiba has 107909.?????? TBC
163 2011-02-02 01:17:35 <doublec> does tonal use a different font? I can't see the numbers to the right of the decimal
164 2011-02-02 01:17:49 <andrew12^mac> hm
165 2011-02-02 01:18:03 <andrew12^mac> idling at 0%
166 2011-02-02 01:18:06 <andrew12^mac> gcc is*
167 2011-02-02 01:18:21 <luke-jr> doublec: it has 6 non-Arabic digits
168 2011-02-02 01:18:34 <andrew12^mac> and i htop under S it says D instead of S or R
169 2011-02-02 01:18:36 <doublec> i see
170 2011-02-02 01:18:51 <andrew12^mac> eating like 72% CPU
171 2011-02-02 01:18:56 <andrew12^mac> RAM**
172 2011-02-02 01:18:56 <MT`AwAy> I see [23db][23d3][23dc]
173 2011-02-02 01:18:57 <Kiba> I feel like a very rich man sometime
174 2011-02-02 01:19:01 <Cusipzzz> batshit crazy imo ;)
175 2011-02-02 01:19:03 <Kiba> but I still need to earn my 2100 BTC!
176 2011-02-02 01:19:07 <luke-jr> doublec: minimal font with just the Tonal digits: http://luke.dashjr.org/education/tonal/glyphs/fonts/Luxi/LuxiTonal.ttf
177 2011-02-02 01:19:15 <molecular> E9D8 E909 E9DC
178 2011-02-02 01:19:25 <luke-jr> Kiba: you have over 10 bong-bitcoins!
179 2011-02-02 01:19:30 <molecular> but it's very small might have misread
180 2011-02-02 01:19:44 <MT`AwAy> ah
181 2011-02-02 01:19:46 <MT`AwAy> E9DB
182 2011-02-02 01:20:03 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: weird, it should be E9Dx
183 2011-02-02 01:20:12 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, yeah, font was too small
184 2011-02-02 01:20:14 <luke-jr> the 'x' you can treat as a hexadecimal digit ;)
185 2011-02-02 01:20:30 <luke-jr> and note that the Tonal '9' has a hexadecimal equivalent of 'A'
186 2011-02-02 01:21:07 <luke-jr> (really, Tonal '9' should be E9DA, but I didn't feel like having the same symbol twice on my kb)
187 2011-02-02 01:21:10 <andrew12^mac> any idea why g++ would just idle?
188 2011-02-02 01:21:41 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/education/tonal/glyphs/tonal-table.png <-- bitmap of what each Tonal character looks like
189 2011-02-02 01:21:53 <MT`AwAy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hexadecimal_compass_by_Nystrom.jpg <- looking at this makes things easier to understand (ie 1 looks like 15, 2 looks like 14, etc)
190 2011-02-02 01:25:04 <Kiba> noagendamarket: YO YO YO YO YO YO YO YO YO YO YO YO
191 2011-02-02 01:25:18 <Kiba> noagendamarket: you need to talk to chris200x9 about your witcoin ads
192 2011-02-02 01:25:36 <MT`AwAy> (sounds like a good idea)
193 2011-02-02 01:27:45 <luke-jr> ##Tonal if anyone wants to join UTUG :P
194 2011-02-02 01:28:01 <Kiba> only luke-jr is talking about tonal bitcoin
195 2011-02-02 01:28:11 <luke-jr> Kiba: ?
196 2011-02-02 01:28:26 <Kiba> you don't even have a tonal fan club!
197 2011-02-02 01:28:52 <luke-jr> now I do1
198 2011-02-02 01:28:53 <luke-jr> !
199 2011-02-02 01:29:04 <Kiba> and it doesn't include you
200 2011-02-02 01:29:04 <luke-jr> hopefully I'm not overlapping with someone else XD
201 2011-02-02 01:29:37 <luke-jr> andrew12^mac: no u, mac luser
202 2011-02-02 01:29:54 <andrew12^mac> macs > tonal
203 2011-02-02 01:29:54 <luke-jr> andrew12^mac: aren't you supposed to *think different*? huh?
204 2011-02-02 01:30:04 <luke-jr> Macs < *
205 2011-02-02 01:30:11 <andrew12^mac> luke-jr: i'll think different from what you think
206 2011-02-02 01:30:12 <andrew12^mac> :P
207 2011-02-02 01:30:14 <luke-jr> even Windows beats Mac, and I hate Windows :P
208 2011-02-02 01:30:50 <ArtForz> macs suck
209 2011-02-02 01:31:08 <andrew12^mac> argue argue argue
210 2011-02-02 01:31:13 <ArtForz> OSX always sucked, but at least older macs had decent hardware
211 2011-02-02 01:31:18 <luke-jr> ArtForz++
212 2011-02-02 01:31:29 <luke-jr> I would have bought PowerPC Macs for the hardware and put Linux on
213 2011-02-02 01:31:33 <andrew12^mac> argue argue argue!
214 2011-02-02 01:31:34 <luke-jr> but now it's all the same old Intel crap
215 2011-02-02 01:31:37 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, adding trolls to the discussion will not help people switching to tonal
216 2011-02-02 01:31:50 <luke-jr> andrew12^mac is the one trolling :p
217 2011-02-02 01:32:04 <andrew12^mac> pretty sure we both are
218 2011-02-02 01:32:07 <andrew12^mac> nevertheless
219 2011-02-02 01:32:11 <luke-jr> you started it XD
220 2011-02-02 01:32:16 <andrew12^mac> 21:29:38 < luke-jr> andrew12^mac: no u, mac luser
221 2011-02-02 01:32:18 <andrew12^mac> well
222 2011-02-02 01:32:19 <andrew12^mac> i guess i did
223 2011-02-02 01:32:27 <MT`AwAy> one starts a troll, the other one feeds it
224 2011-02-02 01:32:29 <MT`AwAy> same thing
225 2011-02-02 01:32:30 <andrew12^mac> because i joined ##tonal and said tonal sux
226 2011-02-02 01:32:38 <ArtForz> so far had 3 imacs with bulging/dead caps on mainboard and in PSU in my family
227 2011-02-02 01:32:39 <luke-jr> [21:28:49] --> andrew12^mac has joined this channel (~andrew@unaffiliated/andrew12).[21:29:00] <andrew12^mac> TONAL SUCKS!
228 2011-02-02 01:33:24 <luke-jr> andrew12^mac: armistice? :P
229 2011-02-02 01:33:39 <ArtForz> with that kind of failure rate one might as well get a dell
230 2011-02-02 01:34:10 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz, I know a lot of people who are perfectly happy with macs, and never had much problem despite being computer illetrates
231 2011-02-02 01:34:24 <ArtForz> yes
232 2011-02-02 01:34:33 <MT`AwAy> apple made possible for those people to use computers, in this way they did something others have failed to do
233 2011-02-02 01:34:45 <luke-jr> it could have done it without being proprietary
234 2011-02-02 01:34:46 <ArtForz> thats why I try to get my computer-illiterate relatives on macs
235 2011-02-02 01:36:24 <ArtForz> playing tech support for immediate family is plenty
236 2011-02-02 01:36:46 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, when you're a company, you usually think about how you're going to eat (and release more product) before thinking of giving out all the stuff you created for free (anyway mac os is less proprietary than others like windows)
237 2011-02-02 01:37:14 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: proprietary != commercial
238 2011-02-02 01:37:20 <luke-jr> free != non-commercial
239 2011-02-02 01:37:25 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, you can't sell freedom
240 2011-02-02 01:37:34 <luke-jr> and Macs are significantly more proprietary than Intel/Windows
241 2011-02-02 01:37:34 <MT`AwAy> (not that some haven't tried)
242 2011-02-02 01:37:42 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: you can sell free products.
243 2011-02-02 01:38:17 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, give me the name of any company selling free products which became big enough to be considered a global company :)
244 2011-02-02 01:39:18 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: evil can always win over good when you evaluate ignoring good :
245 2011-02-02 01:39:29 <MT`AwAy> anyway mac architecture is fully open, EFI and other things have published specs, and mac os is based on BSD. Apple contributes with stuff like webkit, has a lot of contributions to projects like gcc... I'd say they are way more "open" than, say, microsoft :p
246 2011-02-02 01:39:46 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, good doesn't feed you, and being evil brings more girls :p
247 2011-02-02 01:40:34 <luke-jr> robbing banks feeds you much cheaper
248 2011-02-02 01:40:54 <luke-jr> Darwin is a CLOSED fork of BSD
249 2011-02-02 01:40:56 <andrew12^mac> wtf
250 2011-02-02 01:41:08 <luke-jr> Apple only "contributes" WebKit because they legally have to
251 2011-02-02 01:41:14 <luke-jr> same w/ GCC
252 2011-02-02 01:41:19 <ArtForz> and a EULA forbidding you from *running* osx on non-apple branded hardware
253 2011-02-02 01:41:37 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, they "legally" have to?
254 2011-02-02 01:41:54 <MT`AwAy> like, they legally had to release webkit in the first place?
255 2011-02-02 01:42:08 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: they legally had to release the source, since they released the binary
256 2011-02-02 01:42:16 <andrew12^mac> why did g++ go to 79% ram and 1% cpu when it got to rpc.cpp?
257 2011-02-02 01:42:24 <luke-jr> and when they did, they did it in a way that made it impossible to merge back into KHTML
258 2011-02-02 01:42:34 <echelon> what's the current block?
259 2011-02-02 01:42:39 <echelon> count
260 2011-02-02 01:42:43 <ArtForz> not to mention macos really isn't based on BSD
261 2011-02-02 01:42:48 <andrew12^mac> ;;bc,blockcount
262 2011-02-02 01:42:48 <gribble> Error: "bc,blockcount" is not a valid command.
263 2011-02-02 01:42:51 <andrew12^mac> ;;bc,blocks
264 2011-02-02 01:42:53 <gribble> 105751
265 2011-02-02 01:42:59 <echelon> thanks
266 2011-02-02 01:43:02 <ArtForz> it's a mach microkernel hacked to hell with a BSD personality on top
267 2011-02-02 01:43:14 <andrew12^mac> thanks guys -_-
268 2011-02-02 01:43:31 <echelon> 38032 to go -_-
269 2011-02-02 01:44:16 <luke-jr> to put the nail in the contrast, Microsoft at least allows you to choose/build your hardware
270 2011-02-02 01:44:21 <luke-jr> Apple forces you to buy it from them
271 2011-02-02 01:44:27 <luke-jr> and has a very limited selection
272 2011-02-02 01:44:49 <ArtForz> yep
273 2011-02-02 01:45:21 <echelon> well that's how m$ can make a profit
274 2011-02-02 01:45:51 <ArtForz> ?
275 2011-02-02 01:45:56 <echelon> they don't have to worry about manufacturing so they just sell their licenses to vendors
276 2011-02-02 01:46:11 <ArtForz> I really wonder why apple is *selling* osx
277 2011-02-02 01:46:32 <echelon> osx is confined to apple hardware
278 2011-02-02 01:46:36 <ArtForz> exactly
279 2011-02-02 01:46:40 <echelon> ya
280 2011-02-02 01:46:41 <echelon> hmm
281 2011-02-02 01:46:41 <Kiba> well
282 2011-02-02 01:46:46 <Kiba> very exciting day eh?
283 2011-02-02 01:46:53 <ArtForz> = you have a $2000 dongle anyways
284 2011-02-02 01:46:53 <MT`AwAy> Apple has probably no intention to care about drivers for just any hardware which just cause instability and require a lot more work, instead they decided to limit the scope of usable hardware, I see no problem in this kind of choices
285 2011-02-02 01:47:49 <Necr0s> echelon, I beg to differ.  ;)
286 2011-02-02 01:48:07 <echelon> :P
287 2011-02-02 01:48:25 <MT`AwAy> anyway apple and microsoft both have a way to do thing I don't like
288 2011-02-02 01:48:29 <ArtForz> so?
289 2011-02-02 01:48:32 <Kiba> The Iphone is going to get smushed by android!
290 2011-02-02 01:48:36 <MT`AwAy> I'll release my own proprietary OS if I ever get the time to finish it
291 2011-02-02 01:49:13 <Necr0s> I've ended up running OS X on my desktop, Win7 on my HTPC, and Ubuntu on my servers.
292 2011-02-02 01:49:19 <Necr0s> Whatever gets the job done, I say.
293 2011-02-02 01:49:49 <ArtForz> so to avoid hardware/driver problems, they *forbid users from running their software on non-approved devices*
294 2011-02-02 01:50:06 <ArtForz> it's simply to avoid another clone disaster
295 2011-02-02 01:50:06 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz, apple targets computer illetrates
296 2011-02-02 01:50:22 <Necr0s> I need to get cygwin installed and sshd going on win7 now.
297 2011-02-02 01:50:30 <ArtForz> = they're still a hardware company
298 2011-02-02 01:50:46 <Necr0s> Man, you would be amazed at the number of so-called illeterates out ther.
299 2011-02-02 01:50:57 <Kiba> ?
300 2011-02-02 01:51:07 <Necr0s> I would say that for WELL over half of the users out there, installing a program is beyond their capabilities.
301 2011-02-02 01:51:51 <newsham> i doubt android will smush iphone
302 2011-02-02 01:51:58 <newsham> i think they'll both have large market shares
303 2011-02-02 01:52:07 <Necr0s> Installing a program in iPhone, sure, but not on a desktop OS.
304 2011-02-02 01:52:46 <ArtForz> iirc android already passed iphone marketshare by quite a bit
305 2011-02-02 01:52:46 <Necr0s> Speaking of iPhone, has there been anything done in the way of bitcoin support on iOS?
306 2011-02-02 01:53:30 <Necr0s> Like say a simple app for connecting to a remote wallet and checking it's balance, and sending payments.
307 2011-02-02 01:53:40 <doublec> not that I'm aware of
308 2011-02-02 01:53:42 <Kiba> newsham: Android is top dog
309 2011-02-02 01:53:43 <Necr0s> yhmm
310 2011-02-02 01:54:15 <newsham> kiba: with a succinct and well reasoned argument like that I really dont know what to say.
311 2011-02-02 01:55:12 <MT`AwAy> what people choose and what is better, that's two different (and sometimes opposite) notions
312 2011-02-02 01:55:16 <ArtForz> how about "paying $299 to be able to actually run your software on your own device is a fucking joke"
313 2011-02-02 01:55:19 <newsham> http://7.mshcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/smartphone-os-nov2010-2.png
314 2011-02-02 01:55:52 <Kiba> http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/01/android-beats-nokia-apple-rim-in-2010-but-firm-warns-about-2011.ars
315 2011-02-02 01:57:07 <presence> anyone know what the ati 6970 stock does Mhash/s?
316 2011-02-02 01:57:25 <Kiba> 32.9% of the marketshare
317 2011-02-02 01:57:30 <Kiba> yeah baby!
318 2011-02-02 01:57:34 <Kiba> go open source!
319 2011-02-02 01:57:59 <ArtForz> ~310Mh
320 2011-02-02 01:58:09 <ArtForz> well, at least theoretically
321 2011-02-02 01:58:30 <ArtForz> prcatically you have to use SDK2.3 for 69xx, which sucks for OpenCL
322 2011-02-02 01:58:39 <presence> hmm, odd is the 6970 not 2x 6870?
323 2011-02-02 01:58:44 <ArtForz> no
324 2011-02-02 01:58:55 <ArtForz> ati did a name swaparoo
325 2011-02-02 01:58:59 <Necr0s> presence: http://pastebin.com/AvymGnMJ
326 2011-02-02 01:59:00 <presence> no consistency in model numbering
327 2011-02-02 01:59:03 <presence> lame!!!
328 2011-02-02 01:59:06 <ArtForz> 68xx is between 57xx and 58xx
329 2011-02-02 01:59:16 <ArtForz> 69xx is a bit above it's 58xx equivalent
330 2011-02-02 01:59:18 <Necr0s> A 5970 is the top card right now.
331 2011-02-02 01:59:22 <Necr0s> for mining
332 2011-02-02 01:59:25 <ArtForz> 5970 successor will be 6990
333 2011-02-02 01:59:35 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: I understand there are very good reasons for a driver certification process, but legal action to prevent your customers from doing as they wish?
334 2011-02-02 01:59:43 <Necr0s> Ppl speculate that it can't be a whole lot faster.
335 2011-02-02 02:00:14 <presence> you cant find a 5970 anywhere
336 2011-02-02 02:00:15 <ArtForz> Necr0s: I created that list
337 2011-02-02 02:00:17 <Necr0s> 'cus the 5970 already consumes the maximum 300W allowed by the PCIe spec, so any gains will have to come from something other than throwing more watts and chips at the problem.
338 2011-02-02 02:00:27 <ArtForz> which will be a problem for 6990
339 2011-02-02 02:00:27 <Necr0s> Cool.  It's been quite handy.
340 2011-02-02 02:00:43 <ArtForz> 6950/70 is less efficient than 5850/70 for mining
341 2011-02-02 02:00:45 <Necr0s> I just got a 5970 from eGay.
342 2011-02-02 02:01:03 <presence> why are your gtx260 numbers so low?
343 2011-02-02 02:01:05 <luke-jr> Kiba: do you GPU mine?
344 2011-02-02 02:01:12 <luke-jr> presence: because as usual nVidia SUCKS
345 2011-02-02 02:01:24 <presence> No, I mean, I get 2x that on my 260s
346 2011-02-02 02:01:31 <ArtForz> and rumor sys AMD used quite aggressive PowerTune limits to keep 6990 < 300W with relatively high clocks
347 2011-02-02 02:01:39 <ArtForz> ?
348 2011-02-02 02:01:48 <DiabloD3> heh, powertune is funny
349 2011-02-02 02:01:58 <DiabloD3> they can shut off parts of the chip not in use
350 2011-02-02 02:02:03 <presence> I get ~64M/sec on my gtx260s
351 2011-02-02 02:02:12 <presence> two of them, same result
352 2011-02-02 02:02:14 <ArtForz> thats... weird
353 2011-02-02 02:02:14 <DiabloD3> like, arent using a lot of textures? texture units shut off or some shit
354 2011-02-02 02:02:14 <Necr0s> Maybe there have been some optimizations in the software or drivers or other layers since that data was collected.
355 2011-02-02 02:02:28 <ArtForz> 260s shouldnt be that fast
356 2011-02-02 02:02:29 <presence> rpcminer-cuda.exe, no special parms
357 2011-02-02 02:02:32 <presence> sorry
358 2011-02-02 02:02:35 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, the most obvious reason would be to avoid extra support cost. I'd guess Apple support only has diagnostic & resolution scenarii for Apple hardware. Anyway that's just speculations, only Apple really knows the end of the story
359 2011-02-02 02:02:35 <presence> 460
360 2011-02-02 02:02:47 <presence> I looked in the wrong row
361 2011-02-02 02:02:49 <presence> grr
362 2011-02-02 02:02:57 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: Apple provides support?
363 2011-02-02 02:02:58 <presence> its close
364 2011-02-02 02:03:23 <luke-jr> even if so, no reason they'd need to support non-Apple computers
365 2011-02-02 02:03:26 <ArtForz> yeah
366 2011-02-02 02:03:32 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, last time I had to call them to find what the fuck was wrong with a friend's computer, they did
367 2011-02-02 02:03:48 <ArtForz> those numbers are mostly theoretical and using a older non-released version of my OpenCL miner
368 2011-02-02 02:03:48 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, because customers are dumb and will not understand the difference
369 2011-02-02 02:04:16 <DiabloD3> presence: its slower than my miner I bet
370 2011-02-02 02:04:29 <presence> yours does java right?
371 2011-02-02 02:04:35 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: well, then they should at least put in the agreement that the *end user* can install it on other hardware legally, but they forfeit all support :P
372 2011-02-02 02:04:39 <presence> I wouldnt mind trying it, but it wasn't working
373 2011-02-02 02:04:52 <Necr0s> What does a miner spend 9x% of it's time doing?
374 2011-02-02 02:05:03 <Necr0s> It's hashing I guess....SHA-1?
375 2011-02-02 02:05:04 <ArtForz> nothing
376 2011-02-02 02:05:09 <presence> sha256x2 :D
377 2011-02-02 02:05:22 <ArtForz> GPU is busy doing double-sha256
378 2011-02-02 02:05:30 <Necr0s> hmm
379 2011-02-02 02:05:46 <ArtForz> meanwhile CPU sits there twiddling its thumbs
380 2011-02-02 02:05:47 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, end users would still call and try to get help, and even if the support staff finally understands the situation, you already lost 10 minutes of a support employee trying to understand what a guy wants.
381 2011-02-02 02:05:51 <Necr0s> Is there very much to them code-wise aside from the hashing itself and glue?
382 2011-02-02 02:05:52 <presence> diablo: are there windows binaries for diablo?
383 2011-02-02 02:05:59 <DiabloD3> presence: define "wasnt working"
384 2011-02-02 02:06:04 <ArtForz> not that much
385 2011-02-02 02:06:09 <presence> I couldnt get it working, java was being lame.
386 2011-02-02 02:06:13 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, anyway apple's offer makes sense and is perfect for some kind of people. Except those people are not us, so let's just not buy macs and be fine.
387 2011-02-02 02:06:17 <Necr0s> Like in terms of an algorithm, use of the hashes...
388 2011-02-02 02:06:26 <ArtForz> my old OCL miner is ~550 lines of C
389 2011-02-02 02:06:26 <Necr0s> hmm
390 2011-02-02 02:06:31 <presence> but I didnt attempt to compile from source...I have visual studio...but didnt wont to fight it
391 2011-02-02 02:06:47 <DiabloD3> you dont have to compile from source, and you cant do it in visual studio anyhow
392 2011-02-02 02:06:48 <DiabloD3> its java.
393 2011-02-02 02:07:07 <DiabloD3> presence: what was the exact error? because it sounds like it was the famous "nvidia has shitty drivers" bug
394 2011-02-02 02:07:25 <presence> it was 10 days ago
395 2011-02-02 02:07:31 <presence> I can try again I guess
396 2011-02-02 02:07:32 <Necr0s> I wonder if an FPGA or an array thereof would be any good at this hashing thing.
397 2011-02-02 02:07:36 <presence> is github the only place to get it
398 2011-02-02 02:07:41 <Necr0s> I'm guessing not as good as some of these GPUs.
399 2011-02-02 02:07:43 <presence> or is there a zip of the stuff
400 2011-02-02 02:07:56 <DiabloD3> presence: see the forum thread, I link to a zip there.
401 2011-02-02 02:08:02 <ArtForz> Necr0s: did the math, efficiency-wise FPGA beats GPU by a nice margin
402 2011-02-02 02:08:13 <presence> when I threw double sha256 on my fpga board I got about 10M/sec
403 2011-02-02 02:08:17 <ArtForz> price/perf wise, lose. badly.
404 2011-02-02 02:08:19 <Necr0s> heh
405 2011-02-02 02:08:28 <ArtForz> what fpga board?
406 2011-02-02 02:08:34 <presence> spartan 3
407 2011-02-02 02:08:35 <Necr0s> I didn't have a specific one in mind.
408 2011-02-02 02:08:36 <presence> xilinx
409 2011-02-02 02:08:40 <Necr0s> oh
410 2011-02-02 02:08:46 <presence> it was ok
411 2011-02-02 02:08:51 <ArtForz> sounds about right
412 2011-02-02 02:08:51 <presence> but nothing to write home about
413 2011-02-02 02:08:59 <presence> have to have a bunch
414 2011-02-02 02:09:04 <presence> 8w though :D
415 2011-02-02 02:09:19 <ArtForz> a XC6SLX150 can get ~70Mh/s
416 2011-02-02 02:09:30 <ArtForz> using ~8W
417 2011-02-02 02:09:39 <presence> spartan 6?
418 2011-02-02 02:09:44 <ArtForz> yup
419 2011-02-02 02:09:47 <presence> thats #$200 or so each
420 2011-02-02 02:09:49 <ArtForz> well, a -3 speed grade
421 2011-02-02 02:09:51 <DiabloD3> presence: you have to use 260.x or later on nvidia, btw
422 2011-02-02 02:09:56 <presence> I have 266.
423 2011-02-02 02:10:02 <ArtForz> yea
424 2011-02-02 02:10:09 <ArtForz> about $180
425 2011-02-02 02:10:14 <presence> but I need a dev board :D
426 2011-02-02 02:10:20 <presence> Im lousy at soldering
427 2011-02-02 02:10:32 <DiabloD3> presence: yes, so you should have zero problem
428 2011-02-02 02:10:45 <presence> let me find out
429 2011-02-02 02:11:14 <presence> failed to load Main-Class manifest attribute
430 2011-02-02 02:11:15 <ArtForz> commercial solutions are way too expensive, iirc smth like $9k for 12x S6LX150-3
431 2011-02-02 02:11:54 <presence> lemme create a batch file
432 2011-02-02 02:12:12 <ArtForz> but even with a decent run of custom boards you're stil looking at price/perf worse than 5970 by a factor of > 3
433 2011-02-02 02:12:31 <presence> it will only be worthwhile with a huge farm
434 2011-02-02 02:12:35 <presence> because power will be an issue
435 2011-02-02 02:13:04 <ArtForz> and with a huge farm FPGA makes no sense
436 2011-02-02 02:13:48 <ArtForz> did a few tests on various archs, S6 is about as good as it gets for efficiency and price/perf
437 2011-02-02 02:16:05 <presence> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com/diablominer/Diabl
438 2011-02-02 02:16:08 <presence> oMiner/DiabloMiner
439 2011-02-02 02:16:10 <presence> Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: com.diablominer.DiabloMiner.DiabloM
440 2011-02-02 02:16:13 <presence> iner
441 2011-02-02 02:16:21 <luke-jr> UGH
442 2011-02-02 02:16:24 <ArtForz> S3 is too inefficient, Virtexes are WAY too expensive, Alteras offerings are just a bad joke
443 2011-02-02 02:16:26 <luke-jr> stupid Intel screwed up Sandy Bridge -.-
444 2011-02-02 02:16:35 <ArtForz> well, the southbridge
445 2011-02-02 02:16:55 <presence> you dont like the killswitch? :D
446 2011-02-02 02:17:06 <ArtForz> probably hired a few guys from VIA :P
447 2011-02-02 02:17:14 <luke-jr> <.<
448 2011-02-02 02:17:17 <ArtForz> KT133 anyone?
449 2011-02-02 02:17:32 <luke-jr> think I can get Gigabyte to let me pay my way to an upgrade while I exchange the mobo? <.<
450 2011-02-02 02:18:17 <ArtForz> = the (in)famous 686b southbridge
451 2011-02-02 02:18:55 <ArtForz> oh, and the bug wasn't limited to SB Live! cards
452 2011-02-02 02:19:23 <ArtForz> if anything hogged the PCI bus, the southbridge IDE controller corrupted data
453 2011-02-02 02:20:07 <ArtForz> VIAs reaction? "sucks to be you"
454 2011-02-02 02:20:29 <lfm> ArtForz: tried the ADL get fan speed RPM and it seems it isnt actually implemented at least for my 5770
455 2011-02-02 02:20:40 <DiabloD3> [10:16:05] <presence> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com/diablominer/Diabl
456 2011-02-02 02:20:47 <DiabloD3> presence: because you didnt follow the directions in the thread.
457 2011-02-02 02:20:48 <ArtForz> most 5770s dont have fans w/ tach output
458 2011-02-02 02:21:01 <presence> let me look
459 2011-02-02 02:21:12 <DiabloD3> it gives you the exact command to run to run it on windows
460 2011-02-02 02:21:21 <presence> I got it from twitter not from the forum
461 2011-02-02 02:21:30 <presence> but Ill check the forum
462 2011-02-02 02:21:45 <DiabloD3> so, you'd use twitter over the official thread I started on the official bitcoin forums?
463 2011-02-02 02:22:01 <presence> I did a google search and picked the first one :D
464 2011-02-02 02:22:38 <DiabloD3> huh, I type diablominer into google, I get the github url first, the fourm thread second
465 2011-02-02 02:23:46 <ArtForz> I get forum thread first, forum print page second, github third
466 2011-02-02 02:24:22 <xelister> I get forum first, donkey show second, github browser third
467 2011-02-02 02:24:31 <DiabloD3> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/DiabloMiner
468 2011-02-02 02:24:34 <DiabloD3> theres even a wiki page!
469 2011-02-02 02:24:38 <ArtForz> = presence likes to click twitter links in google results. a lot. ;)
470 2011-02-02 02:24:50 <xelister> strange, tehy must started provigin localizing searches, shouldn't browser from mexico
471 2011-02-02 02:24:55 <presence> ok, got it
472 2011-02-02 02:25:05 <DiabloD3> I wonder when a wiki page appeared
473 2011-02-02 02:25:39 <ArtForz> 21:21, 23 January 2011
474 2011-02-02 02:25:44 <presence> wow, it really lags my machine
475 2011-02-02 02:26:00 <DiabloD3> presence: use -f 1000
476 2011-02-02 02:26:00 <presence> and it gets ~30Mh/s less :(
477 2011-02-02 02:26:08 <presence> ok the cli?
478 2011-02-02 02:26:14 <DiabloD3> yes, add it to the end
479 2011-02-02 02:26:23 <DiabloD3> nvidia's drivers are so shitty, opencl apps rape your desktop performance
480 2011-02-02 02:26:26 <DiabloD3> dont like it? buy ati.
481 2011-02-02 02:26:32 <presence> Im trying :D
482 2011-02-02 02:27:20 <DiabloD3> presence: btw, try fudging with -w... as far as I know, it does nothing on nvidia, and it needs to be a multiple of 32
483 2011-02-02 02:27:34 <DiabloD3> presence: btw, what card do you have?
484 2011-02-02 02:28:12 <newsham> dont diablo w/ teh nvidias
485 2011-02-02 02:28:32 <DiabloD3> newsham: well, for a lot of people, art's kernel on my miner is now the fastest thing out
486 2011-02-02 02:28:32 <presence> I have 2x gtx260
487 2011-02-02 02:28:45 <DiabloD3> presence: what speed do you get with mine after a few minutes?
488 2011-02-02 02:29:07 <presence> Let me let it run...but it honestly makes the windows ui unresponsive
489 2011-02-02 02:29:17 <DiabloD3> yeah, -f 1000 really should help
490 2011-02-02 02:29:27 <presence> I added it...same problem.
491 2011-02-02 02:29:34 <newsham> how do i use arts kernel on your iner for my nvidia card?
492 2011-02-02 02:29:36 <DiabloD3> but nvidia, and especially nvidia on windows, is broken. Im surprised no one has started a class action suite against nvidia
493 2011-02-02 02:29:36 <presence> unless it has to appear in front of -u
494 2011-02-02 02:29:44 <DiabloD3> newsham: use the newest version
495 2011-02-02 02:29:53 <DiabloD3> presence: nope, its not sensitive
496 2011-02-02 02:30:09 <presence> even using irc is greatly lagged...like back in the 1200bps days
497 2011-02-02 02:30:11 <DiabloD3> newsham: I dropped a hacked up m0 kernel for a hacked up art kernel :D
498 2011-02-02 02:30:18 <DiabloD3> presence: yeah, somehow Im not doubting that
499 2011-02-02 02:30:25 <DiabloD3> presence: nvidia does not care about customers
500 2011-02-02 02:30:32 <presence> rpcminer-cude doesnt cause the lag
501 2011-02-02 02:30:44 <DiabloD3> rpcminer-cuda doesnt try stuffing the cards either
502 2011-02-02 02:30:52 <presence> I can tell you that nvidia has shit drivers
503 2011-02-02 02:31:01 <presence> because my teslas should be awesome at this
504 2011-02-02 02:31:08 <presence> and they suck ass
505 2011-02-02 02:31:18 <DiabloD3> btw, if my math is right, two GTX260 should give you about 70 mhash/sec
506 2011-02-02 02:31:33 <ArtForz> I tink he said they're 460s
507 2011-02-02 02:31:35 <presence> with rpcminer-cuda.exe I get ~64M/sec each
508 2011-02-02 02:31:44 <presence> they are gtx460
509 2011-02-02 02:31:45 <DiabloD3> [10:28:33] <presence> I have 2x gtx260
510 2011-02-02 02:31:54 <presence> yeah
511 2011-02-02 02:32:06 <DiabloD3> so is it 260 or 460?
512 2011-02-02 02:32:07 <presence> I keep saying 260, but I mean 460
513 2011-02-02 02:32:19 <DiabloD3> you should be getting 136
514 2011-02-02 02:32:37 <presence> C:UserspresenceDesktopDiabloMiner>java -cp targetlibs*;targetDiabloMiner-
515 2011-02-02 02:32:40 <presence> 0.0.1-SNAPSHOT.jar -Djava.library.path=targetlibs\nativeswindows com.diablomin
516 2011-02-02 02:32:43 <presence> er.DiabloMiner.DiabloMiner -u presence -p prespass -f 1000
517 2011-02-02 02:32:46 <presence> [2/1/11 8:29:12 PM] Started
518 2011-02-02 02:32:48 <presence> [2/1/11 8:29:13 PM] Added GeForce GTX 460 (#1) (7 CU, local work size of 512)
519 2011-02-02 02:32:51 <presence> [2/1/11 8:29:15 PM] Added GeForce GTX 460 (#2) (7 CU, local work size of 512)
520 2011-02-02 02:32:54 <presence> 95104 khash/secc
521 2011-02-02 02:33:19 <DiabloD3> hrm, try with -w 32 and -w 64
522 2011-02-02 02:33:23 <presence> sorry about the block paste
523 2011-02-02 02:33:50 <presence> ok it isnt as laggy with w 32
524 2011-02-02 02:34:26 <presence> ~81M
525 2011-02-02 02:34:42 <presence> its slowly ramping up about 6 khash/s every second or so
526 2011-02-02 02:37:49 <DiabloD3> what did it max out at?
527 2011-02-02 02:38:01 <presence> ~82...Im up to 256 now
528 2011-02-02 02:38:06 <presence> ~106 so far
529 2011-02-02 02:38:43 <DiabloD3> -w shouldnt have much effect on nvidia
530 2011-02-02 02:38:47 <DiabloD3> their whole design is wrong
531 2011-02-02 02:38:55 <presence> its making a diff
532 2011-02-02 02:39:09 <DiabloD3> but Im surprised -w 32 makes the UI responsiveness better
533 2011-02-02 02:39:09 <presence> went up about 20M from -w 32 to -w 128
534 2011-02-02 02:39:23 <presence> -w 384 makes the ui sloggy again
535 2011-02-02 02:39:31 <presence> and adds no extra power
536 2011-02-02 02:39:37 <presence> well no more khash/s
537 2011-02-02 02:40:00 <DiabloD3> Im surprised, though, the cuda miner is doing that much better
538 2011-02-02 02:40:11 <DiabloD3> nvidia must have intentionally broken their opencl compiler
539 2011-02-02 02:40:19 <presence> its about 28M better
540 2011-02-02 02:40:56 <ArtForz> yup, nvidiots openCL compiler is very--- unoptimized
541 2011-02-02 02:41:14 <DiabloD3> that make the cuda miner, which is probably very badly designed, 26% faster
542 2011-02-02 02:41:17 <DiabloD3> thats kind of scary
543 2011-02-02 02:41:17 <presence> first to market last to fix
544 2011-02-02 02:41:20 <DiabloD3> Im glad nvidia is going bankrupt
545 2011-02-02 02:41:30 <DiabloD3> depends how you define "first to market"
546 2011-02-02 02:41:47 <DiabloD3> they wernt the first with a massively parallel computation arch, nor the first with a opencl impl
547 2011-02-02 02:41:59 <presence> well as far as I know (and I may be wrong, Im not on the inside) they came to the curb with gpu+cudalike first
548 2011-02-02 02:42:18 <DiabloD3> they were the first with a computing gpu, but not one with opencl
549 2011-02-02 02:42:29 <DiabloD3> thats like handing someone a car, but not the keys.
550 2011-02-02 02:42:32 <presence> but did others package opencl with their driver set?
551 2011-02-02 02:42:33 <ArtForz> andd iirc ATI also had a GPGPU framework pretty early
552 2011-02-02 02:42:41 <ArtForz> remember Brook+ ?
553 2011-02-02 02:42:53 <DiabloD3> ATI came out with theirs slightly after CUDA came out
554 2011-02-02 02:42:59 <presence> I have to say, the last several nvidia drivers have been ASS
555 2011-02-02 02:43:00 <DiabloD3> and it was just as shitty
556 2011-02-02 02:43:04 <DiabloD3> ATI had OpenCL drivers first, though
557 2011-02-02 02:43:10 <ArtForz> yep
558 2011-02-02 02:43:16 <DiabloD3> by like 9 months
559 2011-02-02 02:43:34 <DiabloD3> and Apple had OpenCL shit in a developer release of snow leopard before ATI had theirs out
560 2011-02-02 02:43:51 <presence> on my two machines that have sli here the drivers ass up, and harass me every 2 minutes with "recovered" when they never really have, and I cant do anything but watch a screen flash until I reboot
561 2011-02-02 02:44:01 <DiabloD3> eww
562 2011-02-02 02:44:10 <presence> it doesnt happen all the time
563 2011-02-02 02:44:20 <presence> but it tends to happen when Im deving which is the WORST possible time.
564 2011-02-02 02:44:25 <ArtForz> "only when the computer is on" :P
565 2011-02-02 02:44:42 <presence> nothing like editing a huge python script on a remote host when your desktop video gets assed up
566 2011-02-02 02:44:47 <DiabloD3> presence: well, buying just a radeon 5770 would put you ahead
567 2011-02-02 02:44:49 <DiabloD3> and those are really cheap
568 2011-02-02 02:44:58 <presence> Well, I want to buy one card
569 2011-02-02 02:45:11 <presence> because power consumption in this sli setup is brutal
570 2011-02-02 02:45:21 <DiabloD3> I can imagine
571 2011-02-02 02:45:25 <ArtForz> lol
572 2011-02-02 02:45:32 <presence> just running the miners increases my power usage by 292W
573 2011-02-02 02:45:43 <presence> idle Im at 168W
574 2011-02-02 02:45:46 <DiabloD3> a gtx460 is 150 watts each
575 2011-02-02 02:45:52 <ArtForz> so?
576 2011-02-02 02:45:53 <presence> with mining its 460W :D
577 2011-02-02 02:46:05 <presence> not that its a huge deal because its still a net win
578 2011-02-02 02:46:12 <ArtForz> a 5970 is 300W a pop :P
579 2011-02-02 02:46:21 <presence> but Im guessing that with a better card I use the same power and push more hashes
580 2011-02-02 02:46:23 <DiabloD3> so thats 300 watts for... what a 5770 does in 108 watts
581 2011-02-02 02:46:37 <ArtForz> 5770 is a bit faster
582 2011-02-02 02:46:49 <DiabloD3> 13x vs 15x
583 2011-02-02 02:46:54 <ArtForz> shoudl be getting ~160 Mhps with your new miner
584 2011-02-02 02:46:55 <DiabloD3> its the closest comparison
585 2011-02-02 02:47:12 <DiabloD3> still, 5770 is the smallest card worth buying
586 2011-02-02 02:47:25 <ArtForz> yup
587 2011-02-02 02:47:29 <presence> Well, if Im buying something why not buy something bigger and better
588 2011-02-02 02:47:39 <DiabloD3> presence: oh, and on 3D, the 5770 _could_ be a tiny bit slower, but nvidia sli is so badly designed that its probably about the same
589 2011-02-02 02:47:51 <ArtForz> unless you get a good deal on a 5850
590 2011-02-02 02:48:05 <DiabloD3> 1800 gflops vs 5770's 1360
591 2011-02-02 02:48:17 <echelon> finally got my payment after 5 days -___-
592 2011-02-02 02:48:26 <DiabloD3> but SLI will easily cost you that lead on a lot of games
593 2011-02-02 02:48:51 <lfm> echelon so reloading block files helped finally?
594 2011-02-02 02:49:23 <echelon> lfm, yeah :)
595 2011-02-02 02:49:29 <lfm> wtg
596 2011-02-02 02:49:33 <echelon> downloaded it over tor heh
597 2011-02-02 02:49:37 <DiabloD3> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161338
598 2011-02-02 02:49:43 <DiabloD3> $99 after rebate
599 2011-02-02 02:49:43 <lfm> ouch
600 2011-02-02 02:49:51 <presence> unfortunately, my mb wont do xfire
601 2011-02-02 02:49:57 <echelon> i wasn't in any rush :)
602 2011-02-02 02:49:58 <DiabloD3> presence: yes it will.
603 2011-02-02 02:50:00 <ArtForz> huh?
604 2011-02-02 02:50:04 <presence> hmmm
605 2011-02-02 02:50:09 <presence> actually it does
606 2011-02-02 02:50:13 <presence> I thought they said no
607 2011-02-02 02:50:17 <ArtForz> xfire is supported on pretty much anything
608 2011-02-02 02:50:18 <DiabloD3> presence: xfire and sli are the same thing... its just multiple pci-e x16 slots
609 2011-02-02 02:50:20 <presence> Supports ATI Quad-GPU CrossFireX Technology
610 2011-02-02 02:50:25 <lfm> you dont actually need xfire. run cards separately
611 2011-02-02 02:50:33 <presence> I do if I also game with them
612 2011-02-02 02:50:40 <ArtForz> except nvidia cripples SLI
613 2011-02-02 02:50:40 <DiabloD3> no, you just buy a bigger card
614 2011-02-02 02:50:45 <DiabloD3> single gpu always wins
615 2011-02-02 02:50:48 <presence> this is my point
616 2011-02-02 02:50:52 <presence> thus the 5970
617 2011-02-02 02:51:00 <presence> BUT, I dont like spending $600 on ebay stuff
618 2011-02-02 02:51:05 <DiabloD3> 5970 is two gpus
619 2011-02-02 02:51:05 <presence> soooo...I need to go elsewhere
620 2011-02-02 02:51:13 <luke-jr> presence: NewEgg has them for $600
621 2011-02-02 02:51:14 <presence> its two in one box right
622 2011-02-02 02:51:21 <DiabloD3> yeah, but it has internal crossfire
623 2011-02-02 02:51:26 <ArtForz> yup
624 2011-02-02 02:51:26 <presence> actually they dont luke
625 2011-02-02 02:51:31 <DiabloD3> which has to be disabled, and cant be afaik on windows
626 2011-02-02 02:51:31 <luke-jr> no?
627 2011-02-02 02:51:34 <luke-jr> they did a week ago
628 2011-02-02 02:51:43 <presence> they have a 5970 for $1k
629 2011-02-02 02:52:08 <presence> so lets assume I get 1 new ATI card
630 2011-02-02 02:52:16 <presence> I will throw these gtxs in my kids machine
631 2011-02-02 02:52:25 <presence> whats the most reasonable ati card to get?
632 2011-02-02 02:52:31 <presence> the 5870?  5770?
633 2011-02-02 02:52:36 <DiabloD3> well, lets say you want 2x the performance you have now
634 2011-02-02 02:52:39 <DiabloD3> to make the upgrade worth it
635 2011-02-02 02:53:01 <ArtForz> how bout 6950 1GB ?
636 2011-02-02 02:53:04 <luke-jr> holy crap, NewEgg *did* raise the price
637 2011-02-02 02:53:14 <DiabloD3> that'd be a 6870 or a 5870 or any of the 69xx cards
638 2011-02-02 02:53:41 <presence> the 6970 does about 300M/s?
639 2011-02-02 02:53:49 <presence> and is around $400
640 2011-02-02 02:54:11 <ArtForz> 6950 does ~260
641 2011-02-02 02:54:12 <DiabloD3> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102883
642 2011-02-02 02:54:26 <DiabloD3> 5870 does around 314
643 2011-02-02 02:54:30 <ArtForz> yup
644 2011-02-02 02:54:44 <presence> and how many watts does this thing suck?
645 2011-02-02 02:54:46 <DiabloD3> but its about 25% slower on 3D than the 6970
646 2011-02-02 02:54:56 <luke-jr> weird, my system is very laggy right now
647 2011-02-02 02:54:58 <ArtForz> about 190W
648 2011-02-02 02:55:01 <DiabloD3> 188 max
649 2011-02-02 02:55:04 <DiabloD3> idles at 27
650 2011-02-02 02:55:12 <presence> so still much much less
651 2011-02-02 02:55:13 <DiabloD3> it idles at about a third of what your two gtx 460s do
652 2011-02-02 02:55:36 <DiabloD3> yeah, 2x+ of the 3D performance, 3x of the miner performance, 2/3rds of the max power usage, and a third of the idle usage
653 2011-02-02 02:55:46 <ArtForz> yup
654 2011-02-02 02:56:16 <presence> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127554&cm_re=6970-_-14-127-554-_-Product
655 2011-02-02 02:56:38 <ArtForz> 6970 is imo overpriced
656 2011-02-02 02:56:38 <presence> I need this to drive a 30" monitor as well, but that shouldnt be a challenge
657 2011-02-02 02:56:46 <DiabloD3> 69xx is veyr overpriced
658 2011-02-02 02:57:12 <DiabloD3> presence: 6970 is about 25% faster in 3D than 5870, mines, eh, a tiny bit slower
659 2011-02-02 02:57:15 <ArtForz> well, the 1GB 6950s are decent
660 2011-02-02 02:57:20 <DiabloD3> its not worth the huge price increase
661 2011-02-02 02:57:31 <DiabloD3> I dont like how 69xx requires stream SDK 2.3
662 2011-02-02 02:57:37 <ArtForz> unless you're planning on running crossfire
663 2011-02-02 02:57:54 <presence> Well crossfire is better than running multiple machines right
664 2011-02-02 02:57:59 <DiabloD3> presence: if I was mining and gaming, I'd buy the 5870 over the 6970
665 2011-02-02 02:58:01 <presence> because I dont need the 100+W for the system
666 2011-02-02 02:58:06 <DiabloD3> presence: no
667 2011-02-02 02:58:08 <ArtForz> no, I mean crossfire for 3D mode
668 2011-02-02 02:58:12 <DiabloD3> you have to disable crossfire for mining
669 2011-02-02 02:58:18 <DiabloD3> which you cant do on windows
670 2011-02-02 02:58:25 <presence> ok
671 2011-02-02 02:58:36 <DiabloD3> all the multi-card miners in here (like art and his 24 5970s) use linux with crossfire off
672 2011-02-02 02:58:47 <ArtForz> for mining, pretty much any mix of 57/8/9xx will do
673 2011-02-02 02:58:58 <DiabloD3> presence: 68xx and 69xx have a very optimized crossfire mode, btw
674 2011-02-02 02:59:11 <DiabloD3> presence: its basically zero performance loss on almost all games
675 2011-02-02 02:59:17 <ArtForz> 69xx
676 2011-02-02 02:59:24 <DiabloD3> I thought 68xx had it too?
677 2011-02-02 02:59:26 <ArtForz> 68xx doesnt scale much better than 58xx
678 2011-02-02 02:59:30 <DiabloD3> feh
679 2011-02-02 02:59:37 <DiabloD3> either way, its impressive
680 2011-02-02 02:59:40 <DiabloD3> but worthless for mining
681 2011-02-02 02:59:49 <presence> but this 5870 is going to be better than my 2xgtx260
682 2011-02-02 02:59:57 <DiabloD3> presence: yes by far
683 2011-02-02 03:00:04 <presence> in every way, gaming and otherwise
684 2011-02-02 03:00:06 <ArtForz> 460 I think
685 2011-02-02 03:00:13 <presence> haha
686 2011-02-02 03:00:16 <DiabloD3> like 6x mining performance per watt, 4 or 5x per watt in 3D
687 2011-02-02 03:00:26 <presence> I need to get rid of them just so I stop mistyping them
688 2011-02-02 03:00:31 <DiabloD3> yeah
689 2011-02-02 03:00:33 <ArtForz> dual 460s... 5870... should be in the same ballpark for gaming
690 2011-02-02 03:00:41 <DiabloD3> ArtForz: it doesnt look like it
691 2011-02-02 03:00:44 <presence> and my kids get some 460s
692 2011-02-02 03:00:54 <DiabloD3> ArtForz: look at the gflops performance
693 2011-02-02 03:00:55 <DiabloD3> its horrid
694 2011-02-02 03:01:00 <ArtForz> doesnt matter
695 2011-02-02 03:01:06 <DiabloD3> 1800 gflops on dual 460, 1300 on a 5770
696 2011-02-02 03:01:15 <presence> whats the benefit of going 2GB...for textures?
697 2011-02-02 03:01:23 <ArtForz> yup
698 2011-02-02 03:01:29 <DiabloD3> presence: yeah, only new games with shit cranked up to full will effectively use 2
699 2011-02-02 03:01:32 <ArtForz> 58xx has crazy shader power but gets kinda meh framerates for it
700 2011-02-02 03:01:45 <presence> I play black ops...and will be playing similar going forward
701 2011-02-02 03:01:47 <ArtForz> oh, or high resolutions
702 2011-02-02 03:01:55 <Guest5888> wow i havent paid attention to bitcoins in months... bitcoinmarket has the price at $0.55 now ?! time to sell all my "early adopter" coins!
703 2011-02-02 03:02:15 <presence> Well I run currently windowed at 1680x1050
704 2011-02-02 03:02:25 <newsham> guest: its 0.75 on mtgox
705 2011-02-02 03:02:30 <noagendamarket> how many early adopter coins did you earn ?
706 2011-02-02 03:02:50 <topace___> about 3000 :) i sold about 1000 when the price was at like.. $0.20
707 2011-02-02 03:03:19 <lfm> topace___: check out mtgox.com
708 2011-02-02 03:03:23 <noagendamarket> nice
709 2011-02-02 03:06:07 <topace___> lfm: weird the price kinda went nuts just today on mtgox
710 2011-02-02 03:06:19 <lfm> no kiddin
711 2011-02-02 03:06:48 <presence> ok I ordered that 1G 5870
712 2011-02-02 03:12:33 <newsham> yup, someone blew through the order book with a big buy
713 2011-02-02 03:12:36 <newsham> yesterday
714 2011-02-02 03:12:41 <newsham> all the way up to $0.95
715 2011-02-02 03:12:43 <DiabloD3> ArtForz: btw, you were saying that 5870 should perform like his dual 460 in games?
716 2011-02-02 03:12:49 <DiabloD3> thats bullshit
717 2011-02-02 03:12:55 <newsham> even before that, though..  50% appreciation in a months time.
718 2011-02-02 03:13:02 <DiabloD3> there are games that get an extra 25% performance in nvidia sli
719 2011-02-02 03:13:02 <newsham> bigtime BTC deflation..
720 2011-02-02 03:13:14 <DiabloD3> the best game only does like 75% more on 2 cards
721 2011-02-02 03:13:23 <DiabloD3> nvidia sli really rapes shit
722 2011-02-02 03:13:29 <presence> so are you now telling me that my 5870 is going to suck compared to 2xgtx460 ? :D
723 2011-02-02 03:13:42 <DiabloD3> presence: no, Im saying art's comparison is wrong
724 2011-02-02 03:13:56 <DiabloD3> it should get a lot more 3D performance than your two 460s on most games
725 2011-02-02 03:14:32 <DiabloD3> and it'll be doing it in far less power
726 2011-02-02 03:16:10 <presence> Ill just mine on another machine :D
727 2011-02-02 03:16:31 <DiabloD3> heh
728 2011-02-02 03:16:35 <DiabloD3> why mine on ANOTHER machine
729 2011-02-02 03:16:37 <DiabloD3> mine on ALL machines!
730 2011-02-02 03:17:04 <presence> I only have a few machines with gps worth bothering with
731 2011-02-02 03:18:30 <DiabloD3> *gpus
732 2011-02-02 03:18:55 <noagendamarket> if they have gps it would be easier to track if it gets stolen
733 2011-02-02 03:19:08 <DiabloD3> hee
734 2011-02-02 03:19:10 <noagendamarket> I have a kensington lock lol
735 2011-02-02 03:19:28 <DiabloD3> I have a case that is like 60 pounds dry
736 2011-02-02 03:21:16 <presence> I do gps code all day
737 2011-02-02 03:21:20 <presence> so...
738 2011-02-02 03:22:51 <andrew12^mac> hmm
739 2011-02-02 03:22:56 <andrew12^mac> how does monitorrecieved work?
740 2011-02-02 03:24:12 <necrodearia> like a slave?  command it to work and it will comply
741 2011-02-02 03:24:18 <doublec> you tell bitcoind an address to monitor, and give it a URL that it will access when activity happens on that address
742 2011-02-02 03:24:27 <doublec> that URL receives a JSON-RPC call
743 2011-02-02 03:24:29 <doublec> from bitcoind
744 2011-02-02 03:25:11 <doublec> andrew12: see http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1319.0
745 2011-02-02 03:25:17 <PLATO> what is the command to view recent orders with Gribble
746 2011-02-02 03:25:38 <andrew12^mac> PLATO: for otc or mtgox?
747 2011-02-02 03:25:42 <PLATO> otc
748 2011-02-02 03:25:47 <andrew12^mac> go to #bitcoin-otc
749 2011-02-02 03:25:54 <PLATO> o ssnap
750 2011-02-02 03:26:01 <PLATO> i changed a window in irssi
751 2011-02-02 03:26:03 <andrew12^mac> but it's ;;book <thing>
752 2011-02-02 03:26:06 <PLATO> thought i was there
753 2011-02-02 03:26:10 <andrew12^mac> i.e. ;;book ppusd
754 2011-02-02 03:26:11 <PLATO> thanks :)
755 2011-02-02 03:26:24 <PLATO> hey what's the best place to learn how bitcoin works
756 2011-02-02 03:26:40 <PLATO> technically
757 2011-02-02 03:26:55 <andrew12^mac> http://bitcoin.it
758 2011-02-02 03:26:57 <andrew12^mac> look around there
759 2011-02-02 03:27:20 <PLATO> nice. i've explored some, i'll continue
760 2011-02-02 03:29:04 <andrew12^mac> doublec: i tried running a tcp server that just echoes anything it recieves, and it hasn't done anything yet
761 2011-02-02 03:29:48 <andrew12^mac> $ ./bitcoind listmonitored
762 2011-02-02 03:29:49 <andrew12^mac> {
763 2011-02-02 03:29:51 <andrew12^mac> }
764 2011-02-02 03:29:53 <andrew12^mac> ]
765 2011-02-02 03:30:13 <newsham> andrew: what do you want the server to do?
766 2011-02-02 03:30:44 <andrew12^mac> newsham: i honestly want gettransaction to work for any transaction id, whether it's mine or not
767 2011-02-02 03:31:34 <doublec> it probably doesn't follow HTTP 300 changes
768 2011-02-02 03:31:54 <doublec> http://localhost:5678 is probably redirecting to http://localhost:5678/
769 2011-02-02 03:31:58 <andrew12^mac> well the server probably doesnt even work
770 2011-02-02 03:32:16 <doublec> so it's not hitting your server at all?
771 2011-02-02 03:32:41 <andrew12^mac> no
772 2011-02-02 03:32:50 <andrew12^mac> like i think my little echo server isnt working
773 2011-02-02 03:32:58 <doublec> you'll have to wait for a block to be processed by the network too
774 2011-02-02 03:33:22 <theymos> It probably wouldn't be too hard to modify gettransaction to work for everything.
775 2011-02-02 03:33:43 <andrew12^mac> theymos: do it! :p
776 2011-02-02 03:33:58 <theymos> I have my block database, so I don't need it.
777 2011-02-02 03:34:12 <presence> maybe Ill get that spartan 6 for the pop-11 implementation that newsh was trying to talk me into building :D
778 2011-02-02 03:34:17 <doublec> andrew12^mac: what are you trying to do?
779 2011-02-02 03:34:52 <andrew12^mac> doublec: make a graphviz digraph of the inputs of a transaction, and their inputs, etc
780 2011-02-02 03:34:55 <doublec> if you want every transaction can't you just use that half node thing someone pastebin'd  the other day?
781 2011-02-02 03:35:16 <andrew12^mac> hm
782 2011-02-02 03:35:19 <andrew12^mac> i guess that could work
783 2011-02-02 03:35:25 <andrew12^mac> have it request the transaction from the node
784 2011-02-02 03:37:39 <andrew12^mac> theymos: how does blockexplorer do it? :p
785 2011-02-02 03:38:09 <theymos> I use getblock to put every transaction into a database.
786 2011-02-02 03:38:37 <andrew12^mac> the getblock i have just gives me a tx id
787 2011-02-02 03:38:41 <andrew12^mac> :|
788 2011-02-02 03:38:51 <theymos> jgarzik's getblockbynumber
789 2011-02-02 03:39:06 <theymos> (Or getblockbynum -- I renamed mine to getblock)
790 2011-02-02 03:39:58 <andrew12^mac> this one? http://yyz.us/bitcoin/patch.bitcoin-getblock
791 2011-02-02 03:40:34 <theymos> Yes. You need to make modifications if you need precision, however, as that deals with double-precision numbers.
792 2011-02-02 03:40:45 <andrew12^mac> I don't need precision
793 2011-02-02 03:40:56 <andrew12^mac> I really just need the tx ids of the inputs :P
794 2011-02-02 03:41:25 <andrew12^mac> it'd be cool if I had it so you could give it a block number and it would show you where the generated coins went
795 2011-02-02 03:41:38 <andrew12^mac> (via graphviz of course)
796 2011-02-02 03:42:34 <theymos> There's no objective way to graph that, since the coins are mixed when outputs are split.
797 2011-02-02 03:43:03 <andrew12^mac> now here's the hard part: how do you use patches? :p
798 2011-02-02 03:43:55 <Necr0s> I believe you use the 'patch' program.
799 2011-02-02 03:44:11 <theymos> I just apply it manually. Remove the leading "+" signs with some regex. Paste the function somewhere near the top and the other three lines somewhere in those code sections.
800 2011-02-02 03:44:26 <andrew12^mac> wrong! get apply
801 2011-02-02 03:44:29 <andrew12^mac> git apply*
802 2011-02-02 03:45:01 <theymos> "patch" is the traditional Unix command for applying patches.
803 2011-02-02 03:45:09 <andrew12^mac> i know
804 2011-02-02 03:45:42 <andrew12^mac> pasting the raw code is probably a good idea
805 2011-02-02 03:45:44 <andrew12^mac> patch didnt work :p
806 2011-02-02 03:46:06 <doublec> you probably need a -p 1 or something for patch
807 2011-02-02 03:49:33 <luke-jr> ahahaha NICE
808 2011-02-02 03:49:56 <luke-jr> so as it all turned out, VT-d really IS disabled on my H67 motherboard&
809 2011-02-02 03:50:15 <luke-jr> but because of this Intel screwup, I can probably get NewEgg to let me swap it for a Q67 at no extra charge
810 2011-02-02 04:04:06 <newsham> http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/mtgox/bidask.html
811 2011-02-02 04:07:40 <newsham> you can see some of the automated traders slowly ramping their bids and asks
812 2011-02-02 04:11:20 <Kiba> it's fricking crazy
813 2011-02-02 04:11:24 <Kiba> price functulate so much
814 2011-02-02 04:11:43 <newsham> whats the fundamental value of the BTC, kiba?
815 2011-02-02 04:11:55 <Kiba> supply and demand!
816 2011-02-02 04:16:17 <luke-jr> I'd like to see someone write an AI engine for markets :D
817 2011-02-02 04:16:48 <Kiba> that would be awessssssssssome
818 2011-02-02 04:17:30 <newsham> luke: you mean an automated trader?
819 2011-02-02 04:18:00 <newsham> syke = mh?
820 2011-02-02 04:18:30 <newsham> luke: there are lots of people doing automated trading.
821 2011-02-02 04:19:45 <luke-jr> newsham: automated != AI
822 2011-02-02 04:19:55 <luke-jr> AI would be a *learning* program ;)
823 2011-02-02 04:20:10 <luke-jr> that can formulate its own algorithms to maximize profit
824 2011-02-02 04:21:34 <newsham> cool, it can learn how to lose money all on its own.
825 2011-02-02 04:21:54 <newsham> and it'll be a black box that its programemrs wont be able to extract useful knowledge from
826 2011-02-02 04:21:57 <newsham> win win!
827 2011-02-02 04:22:08 <nanotube> haha
828 2011-02-02 04:23:14 <Kiba> we start off February with 404 posts and 103 people online at one time
829 2011-02-02 04:24:00 <Kiba> with a big band so to speak
830 2011-02-02 04:24:22 <Kiba> s/band/bang
831 2011-02-02 04:26:12 <newsham> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/23/business/worldbusiness/23iht-trading.3647885.html?_r=1
832 2011-02-02 04:27:42 <presence> hedge fund manager :D
833 2011-02-02 04:31:34 <presence> ie... criminal
834 2011-02-02 04:32:08 <Kiba> presence: if they get bailed out by governments
835 2011-02-02 04:32:21 <Kiba> otherwise, they're parasite on your investment
836 2011-02-02 04:32:54 <presence> criminal in either case if you ask me :D
837 2011-02-02 04:33:06 <Netsniper> if they got bailed out, they'll be taken out by the govt bubble
838 2011-02-02 04:35:17 <newsham> this conversation is auto generated by a content free grammar
839 2011-02-02 04:43:28 <luke-jr> interesting fact: Tonal is 95 years older than hexadecimal.
840 2011-02-02 04:46:38 <Keefe> luke-jr: in other words, better systems have since supplanted it ;)
841 2011-02-02 04:46:44 <Keefe> such as decimal and hex
842 2011-02-02 04:46:55 <luke-jr> Keefe: Decimal is older than Tonal :p
843 2011-02-02 04:47:14 <luke-jr> and hexadecimal isn't better.
844 2011-02-02 04:47:19 <luke-jr> it's incomplete as a number system.
845 2011-02-02 04:47:20 <Keefe> whatever. tonal certainly doesn't appear to have much following
846 2011-02-02 04:47:23 <luke-jr> only useful for computers.
847 2011-02-02 04:47:35 <luke-jr> Keefe: neither did SI at one time
848 2011-02-02 04:47:54 <Keefe> there has to be a really good reason to consider a new number system
849 2011-02-02 04:48:08 <luke-jr> why?
850 2011-02-02 04:48:15 <Keefe> because decimal works great
851 2011-02-02 04:48:20 <luke-jr> it really doesn't.
852 2011-02-02 04:48:23 <Keefe> explain?
853 2011-02-02 04:48:32 <luke-jr> SI has proven just how flawed decimal is, actually.
854 2011-02-02 04:48:49 <luke-jr> Keefe: decimal is unnatural for humans to do practical things with
855 2011-02-02 04:48:58 <luke-jr> the *only* thing natural to do with it is count your fingers
856 2011-02-02 04:49:17 <luke-jr> decimal 10 is also an unfit point to divide/multiply units
857 2011-02-02 04:49:33 <luke-jr> nobody uses the deca- prefix
858 2011-02-02 04:49:55 <luke-jr> or even deci- AFAIK
859 2011-02-02 04:50:04 <Keefe> cause maybe the others are sufficient?
860 2011-02-02 04:50:20 <Kiba> flawed?
861 2011-02-02 04:50:27 <theymos> Here's an interesting article about the advantages of hex: http://www.intuitor.com/hex/switch.html
862 2011-02-02 04:50:45 <luke-jr> because 10 is too small for the division/multiplication
863 2011-02-02 04:50:49 <luke-jr> people can just as easily use the 1 unit, or if it's larger, jump to the 100 unit
864 2011-02-02 04:51:02 <Keefe> i don't get it. nothing hinders decimal multiplication and division
865 2011-02-02 04:51:21 <luke-jr> Keefe: it's not about impossibility, it's about unnatural/difficulty
866 2011-02-02 04:51:40 <presence> I dont know
867 2011-02-02 04:51:46 <luke-jr> you don't *need* a tool to divide things into 16 pieces
868 2011-02-02 04:51:51 <Keefe> what's unnatural/difficult is figuring out a new number system nobody grew up with and which there's almost no info online about
869 2011-02-02 04:51:51 <presence> moving the decimal point one left or right is pretty easy
870 2011-02-02 04:52:03 <luke-jr> presence: moving the tonal point one left or right is just as easy
871 2011-02-02 04:52:15 <luke-jr> Keefe: my children grow up with Tonal ;)
872 2011-02-02 04:52:17 <presence> I dont see tonal except for a music language
873 2011-02-02 04:52:27 <luke-jr> presence: try Wikipedia or the book
874 2011-02-02 04:52:34 <Keefe> it's like you're trying to persuade people to learn a new verbal/written language nobody else uses, just because you think it has a few advantages
875 2011-02-02 04:52:45 <luke-jr> Keefe: never heard of Esperanto or Lojban, I presume?
876 2011-02-02 04:52:53 <Keefe> i've heard, and don't see the point
877 2011-02-02 04:52:57 <luke-jr> presence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonal_System  http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/tonal-system/10991090
878 2011-02-02 04:53:03 <presence> Ive heard of speranto, but its pretty much dead
879 2011-02-02 04:53:11 <luke-jr> Keefe: do you see the point of learning more than 1 language at all?
880 2011-02-02 04:53:16 <Keefe> if i have to buy a book, forget it
881 2011-02-02 04:53:17 <luke-jr> presence: Lojban probably killed it :p
882 2011-02-02 04:53:18 <presence> it would be entirely dead if kirk wasnt around :D
883 2011-02-02 04:53:25 <luke-jr> Keefe: try clicking the "Free download" link
884 2011-02-02 04:53:25 <theymos> Let's all use the Ithkui languagel: it has much higher information density (and an awesome script)! http://www.ithkuil.net/ithkuil-intro.htm
885 2011-02-02 04:53:28 <Keefe> if it's really good, there will be thorough info online
886 2011-02-02 04:53:35 <Keefe> and wikipedia's article isn't good enough
887 2011-02-02 04:53:38 <luke-jr> Keefe: try clicking the "Free download" link
888 2011-02-02 04:54:16 <luke-jr> Wikipedia also has a Google Books link http://books.google.com/books?id=aNYGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA105&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1#PPP1,M1
889 2011-02-02 04:54:26 <Necr0s> So it's base-16 then?
890 2011-02-02 04:54:37 <Necr0s> Why not just use the hexadecimal everyone knows?
891 2011-02-02 04:55:37 <luke-jr> Necr0s: hexadecimal isn't fully developed, nor suited to everyday usage
892 2011-02-02 04:55:56 <luke-jr> Tonal, which came 95 years before hexadecimal, is fully developed
893 2011-02-02 04:56:35 <presence> although dividing by 16  physically might not be difficult, it wouldnt be simple on paper with numbers
894 2011-02-02 04:56:48 <luke-jr> presence: sure it is. just move the tonal point.
895 2011-02-02 04:57:02 <Keefe> so you make /16 easy and /10 hard. what for?
896 2011-02-02 04:57:27 <Keefe> why not 15? 17?
897 2011-02-02 04:57:38 <theymos> You can do more halving.
898 2011-02-02 04:57:41 <Necr0s> 16 is mroe orthogonal.
899 2011-02-02 04:57:44 <Necr0s> yeah
900 2011-02-02 04:57:47 <Necr0s> less prime, as it were.
901 2011-02-02 04:57:49 <luke-jr> 888 (2184 decimal) ?? 10 (16 decimal) = 88.8 (136.5 decimal)
902 2011-02-02 04:57:50 <presence> so how do primes work :D
903 2011-02-02 04:57:51 <presence> hehe
904 2011-02-02 04:58:33 <luke-jr> Keefe: why would you need to divide by 5+5 anyway?
905 2011-02-02 04:58:44 <theymos> I agree that hexadecimal would be better, but I'm not willing to re-learn math, and the Total characters/names are stupid.
906 2011-02-02 04:58:51 <Keefe> why would i need to divide by 16?
907 2011-02-02 04:59:24 <Keefe> so base-16 makes halving easier. still just as "hard" to divide by say 3
908 2011-02-02 04:59:24 <luke-jr> Keefe: because dividing by 8+8 is a convenient spot for unit divisions, and also easy for humans to do
909 2011-02-02 04:59:24 <presence> why tonal instead of octal
910 2011-02-02 04:59:38 <Necr0s> Ever see the movie Cube?
911 2011-02-02 04:59:41 <presence> keefe: and you have more numbers that are harder to divide by overall
912 2011-02-02 04:59:51 <Necr0s> or Pi?
913 2011-02-02 05:00:10 <luke-jr> presence: octal is better than decimal, but the slight superiority of tonal over octal, is that numbers tend to get larger, and octal makes them take up more space on paper ;p
914 2011-02-02 05:00:40 <luke-jr> also, octal-divided units would be even worse than decimal I suppose
915 2011-02-02 05:00:51 <presence> but dividing by 3,5,6,7 is hard
916 2011-02-02 05:00:59 <luke-jr> you'd need to do units every 100 (64 deci) instead of every 10
917 2011-02-02 05:01:09 <presence> compared to dividing by 3,5,6,7,10,11,13,14,
918 2011-02-02 05:01:10 <presence> :D
919 2011-02-02 05:01:19 <luke-jr> presence: no harder than decimal
920 2011-02-02 05:01:29 <luke-jr> tonal can represent 1/3 more accurately than decimal can, too :p
921 2011-02-02 05:01:41 <presence> decimal only has 3,4,7,9
922 2011-02-02 05:01:52 <luke-jr> also, 10/3 = 3.3333333&
923 2011-02-02 05:01:59 <luke-jr> but tonal 10/3 = 5
924 2011-02-02 05:02:06 <Keefe> sure, cause 0x23 is more accurate than 35 :)
925 2011-02-02 05:02:14 <presence> in tonal 10/6 is? :D
926 2011-02-02 05:02:19 <luke-jr> 2
927 2011-02-02 05:02:26 <presence> 16/6 is 2?
928 2011-02-02 05:02:37 <luke-jr> hrm, no O.o
929 2011-02-02 05:02:51 <presence> Im just saying
930 2011-02-02 05:03:02 <luke-jr> ooooh, stupid kcalc is rounding to ints
931 2011-02-02 05:03:05 <andrew12> exponents are FUN!
932 2011-02-02 05:03:11 <presence> smaller number systems mean less complicated dividing
933 2011-02-02 05:03:16 <luke-jr> ok, tonal 10/3 is still repeating :P
934 2011-02-02 05:03:17 <Keefe> LOL
935 2011-02-02 05:03:19 <theymos> I wonder if it's possible to invent a number system that can divide everything easily. (Obviously changing more than just the base.)
936 2011-02-02 05:03:20 <Keefe> like i said
937 2011-02-02 05:03:22 <luke-jr> presence: no, it doesn't.
938 2011-02-02 05:03:31 <luke-jr> theymos: base 60 does that
939 2011-02-02 05:03:32 <presence> binary division is always easy
940 2011-02-02 05:03:41 <luke-jr> presence: binary division is painful with decimal
941 2011-02-02 05:03:42 <presence> but you have 101232942098340 digits for larger calculations :D
942 2011-02-02 05:03:48 <andrew12> presence: what's 0.1 in binary?
943 2011-02-02 05:03:57 <presence> its 0.1 :D
944 2011-02-02 05:04:00 <andrew12> (decimal -> binary
945 2011-02-02 05:04:03 <luke-jr> presence: no
946 2011-02-02 05:04:14 <andrew12> presence: pretty sure 0.1 in binary would be .5 in decimal
947 2011-02-02 05:04:31 <luke-jr> 0.1 decimal is, in binary, 0.001100110011&
948 2011-02-02 05:04:38 <andrew12> exactly
949 2011-02-02 05:04:58 <andrew12> <presence> binary division is always easy
950 2011-02-02 05:05:02 <luke-jr> and if you try to binary divide, for example, a decimal bitcoin (BTC), you can only do it 256 times
951 2011-02-02 05:05:15 <presence> I cant imagine doing calculus or geometry in another number system at this point
952 2011-02-02 05:06:54 <Keefe> ease of translation to binary is what hex is for
953 2011-02-02 05:06:55 <andrew12> presence: just do it in base 10 and then convert it to the fibonacci code or something
954 2011-02-02 05:06:55 <Keefe> explain why tonal is better than well-known hex
955 2011-02-02 05:06:55 <luke-jr> the math is all the same
956 2011-02-02 05:06:56 <andrew12> i think numbers are stupid
957 2011-02-02 05:06:56 <luke-jr> really, for most people it's probably just relearning multiplication tables and such
958 2011-02-02 05:06:58 <andrew12> because if we had 2 fingers we'd be using base 2
959 2011-02-02 05:06:59 <luke-jr> andrew12: I have 5 fingers per hand. Base 6 sounds ideal.
960 2011-02-02 05:07:05 <Keefe> < luke-jr> Necr0s: hexadecimal isn't fully developed, nor suited to everyday usage
961 2011-02-02 05:07:08 <Keefe> 21:57 < luke-jr> Tonal, which came 95 years before hexadecimal, is fully developed
962 2011-02-02 05:07:17 <Keefe> that's not an explanation
963 2011-02-02 05:07:20 <andrew12> luke-jr: we have 10 fingers, hence base 10
964 2011-02-02 05:07:27 <luke-jr> Keefe: do I need to elaborate?
965 2011-02-02 05:07:30 <Keefe> yes
966 2011-02-02 05:07:32 <luke-jr> andrew12: we have 20 fingers+toes
967 2011-02-02 05:07:41 <andrew12> toes arent relevent
968 2011-02-02 05:07:45 <andrew12> you can't yount with your toes
969 2011-02-02 05:07:50 <Keefe> because so far, tonal sounds like hex simply with different symbols for the 16 digits