1 2011-02-07 00:15:17 <lfm> so still no gribble
  2 2011-02-07 00:19:39 <andrew12> lfm: gribble is here
  3 2011-02-07 00:20:15 <lfm> oh I see it now
  4 2011-02-07 00:21:58 <andrew12> hmm
  5 2011-02-07 00:22:08 <andrew12> I keep getting $100 adwords gift cards in the mail
  6 2011-02-07 00:22:25 <andrew12> should I use it to advertise bitcoin? xD
  7 2011-02-07 00:24:37 <lfm> sure
  8 2011-02-07 00:27:36 <Cusipzzz> andrew12: rigged, i only got 75$
  9 2011-02-07 00:36:34 <yegg1> Does bitcoin have use for/accept donations?
 10 2011-02-07 00:38:17 <lfm> yeggl sure send me some at 13hAeGdrrRHMG9ZCu4eU2YENQRRfNc9LDh
 11 2011-02-07 00:40:51 <yegg1> lfm: hah, is there an official process?
 12 2011-02-07 00:41:41 <lfm> are you asking me for an official answer? really? after I gave you that line?
 13 2011-02-07 00:42:54 <lfm> yeggl remember bitcoin is decetralized. so its kinda not realistic to expect a central collection point for donations
 14 2011-02-07 00:43:18 <andrew12> yegg1: if you want to receive donations, you post your address somewhere. if you want to send donations, you find someone that has a bitcoin address and send them some bitcoins
 15 2011-02-07 00:43:52 <andrew12> the "official process" is use of the client ;)
 16 2011-02-07 00:44:04 <yegg1> andrew12: i meant donating to the bitcoin project itself
 17 2011-02-07 00:44:26 <lfm> if you wanted to give Satoshi some bitcoins, he has stated he has lota of bitcoins already so there is not much point sending him any small amounts
 18 2011-02-07 00:45:11 <Kiba> I would like to see the bitcoin.org site self sustain itself only on bitcoin donation
 19 2011-02-07 00:45:16 <dirtyfilthy> yegg1: the method people use is posting a bounty for something they'd like to see done with/to bitcoin
 20 2011-02-07 00:45:20 <Kiba> and bitcoin hosts
 21 2011-02-07 00:48:22 <xelister> how many W does 5770 take, and 5870 ?
 22 2011-02-07 00:48:47 <xelister> how many W does radeon take: 5770=150W? 5870=200W???, 5970=300W ?
 23 2011-02-07 00:49:17 <lfm> i think 5770 is spozed to be 105w
 24 2011-02-07 00:49:46 <xelister> lfm: 150W afair?
 25 2011-02-07 00:50:15 <lfm> there is a table on wikipeadia
 26 2011-02-07 00:50:23 <[Noodles]> 5850=150W stock
 27 2011-02-07 00:50:27 <xelister> 150 W means that card will use 150*24*30/1000 = 108 kWh per month?
 28 2011-02-07 00:50:47 <lfm> xelist that looks right ya
 29 2011-02-07 00:50:51 <xelister> what is price of 1 kWh (home utilities) in say USA, and in other countries?
 30 2011-02-07 00:51:06 <lfm> theres a thread on that in the forum
 31 2011-02-07 00:52:13 <xelister> afair 0.30 PLN/kWh (0.10 USD/kWh) in PL
 32 2011-02-07 00:52:44 <lfm> thats pretty cheap compared to a lot of places
 33 2011-02-07 00:52:59 <xelister> or .40 (0.13)
 34 2011-02-07 00:53:03 <lfm> not the cheapest tho
 35 2011-02-07 00:53:37 <xelister> ArtForz: your unit was... 200Mhash, 2000 USD investment to get hardware, around 20 W usage?
 36 2011-02-07 00:54:14 <lfm> I thinkj  he spent more than that
 37 2011-02-07 00:57:05 <luke-jr> only 200 MHG
 38 2011-02-07 00:57:31 <lfm> xelister: maybe those figures are for on card
 39 2011-02-07 00:57:36 <lfm> one card
 40 2011-02-07 00:57:40 <Necr0s> I spent $385 on my 5970, and already had all the other hardware needed.
 41 2011-02-07 00:58:10 <ArtForz> errr... no
 42 2011-02-07 00:58:32 <Necr0s> I might get one for my other comp now, assuming I can get a GPU miner to run on OS X.
 43 2011-02-07 00:59:59 <lfm> necros wouldn't you have to get the card before you can tell if you can get it to work
 44 2011-02-07 01:00:36 <ArtForz> a 1U unit is 6.4Gh, $6000, ~300W
 45 2011-02-07 01:00:43 <luke-jr> sigh, still no block 9
 46 2011-02-07 01:01:00 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 6400000
 47 2011-02-07 01:01:17 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 6400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 22012.4941572 , is 4 hours, 6 minutes, and 12 seconds
 48 2011-02-07 01:01:19 <Necr0s> lfm, well I could test using the card I already have.
 49 2011-02-07 01:01:23 <lfm> oic
 50 2011-02-07 01:01:27 <luke-jr> just a month to break even at current difficulty/market& :o
 51 2011-02-07 01:01:29 <luke-jr> ArtForz: you're selling these?
 52 2011-02-07 01:01:40 <ArtForz> nope
 53 2011-02-07 01:01:43 <luke-jr> :p
 54 2011-02-07 01:01:49 <ArtForz> well, not yet at least
 55 2011-02-07 01:01:53 <ArtForz> I havent even finished the production board design
 56 2011-02-07 01:01:58 <luke-jr> before they become unprofitable? :P
 57 2011-02-07 01:02:03 <lfm> have you even got it actually running yet?
 58 2011-02-07 01:02:11 <ArtForz> I dont even have the damn chips yet
 59 2011-02-07 01:02:40 <lfm> thot you said youd have em by now. some delay?
 60 2011-02-07 01:02:55 <luke-jr> I'm still totally confused about how the Stream SDK is able to GPU-mine on my Intel chipset that has no OpenCL support
 61 2011-02-07 01:02:59 <Necr0s> This is the FPGA rig?
 62 2011-02-07 01:03:11 <ArtForz> no, I said I hope I got em by now, shipping date is <= feb 11
 63 2011-02-07 01:03:13 <ArtForz> ASIC
 64 2011-02-07 01:03:55 <ArtForz> same setup with most power/cost efficient FPGAs would cost about the same, use about the same power, run at about 1/3 the speed
 65 2011-02-07 01:04:44 <lfm> necros if you're not an expert you might just as well think of em as fpga really
 66 2011-02-07 01:05:33 <ArtForz> the small difference is on a FPGA about 75% of chip area is taken up by the programmable routing network
 67 2011-02-07 01:07:01 <ArtForz> less on modern designs w/ bigger logic/ff blocks, but still about 2/3 of chip lost to programmability
 68 2011-02-07 01:07:09 <lfm> i'm immagining your maskable asic is like a custom mask layer over an array of standard gates basiclly
 69 2011-02-07 01:07:16 <ArtForz> yep, exactly
 70 2011-02-07 01:07:46 <ArtForz> silicon and lower metal layers are fixed
 71 2011-02-07 01:08:36 <ArtForz> a standard cell ASIC would still beat it by an order of magnitude on... pretty much everything
 72 2011-02-07 01:09:50 <ArtForz> well, you'd have to go with an older process to make fixed cost at least semi-plausible, so maybe not order of magnitude, still a factor of 3 or 4
 73 2011-02-07 01:10:10 <lfm> so in say 8 months when difficulty is 200000 and btc is 5$ you might start work on a standard cell asic?
 74 2011-02-07 01:10:19 <ArtForz> unlikely
 75 2011-02-07 01:10:57 <ArtForz> upfront cost is in the high 6-digit $
 76 2011-02-07 01:11:43 <ArtForz> at least for any semi-modern process like 130nm
 77 2011-02-07 01:11:55 <lfm> ok, maybe in 5 years after you have enuf put away to pay for it! :-)
 78 2011-02-07 01:12:35 <ArtForz> and I havent really done any physical chip design in ages, last was iirc on a multi-um node
 79 2011-02-07 01:13:22 <jgarzik> TMSC charges $400,000 base cost, just to set up masks and such
 80 2011-02-07 01:13:34 <ArtForz> yeah
 81 2011-02-07 01:14:13 <ArtForz> tools arent exactly free either, and from what I heard still a bitch to use
 82 2011-02-07 01:14:55 <jgarzik> that's for 0.13u mask, minimum order 25 wafers
 83 2011-02-07 01:15:18 <ArtForz> so stuff hasnt gotten chaper, just smaller
 84 2011-02-07 01:16:00 <ArtForz> actually, thats pretty cheap for a full mask set
 85 2011-02-07 01:16:06 <noagendamarket> maybe we need to raise 1.5 million and buy a bulk order of chips to be assembled on cards :)
 86 2011-02-07 01:17:23 <lfm> noagendamarket: not to mention first run will probably be buggy\n218737
 87 2011-02-07 01:18:26 <ArtForz> they're called multiproject wafers or somesuch nowadays
 88 2011-02-07 01:19:43 <lfm> google: McVitie's Taxi Milk Chocolate Caramel Wafers (9) in Tesco
 89 2011-02-07 01:20:05 <xelister> no one produces the Cypresses no more?
 90 2011-02-07 01:20:14 <xelister> can't Ati restore the line?
 91 2011-02-07 01:20:29 <ArtForz> sure could, but for what?
 92 2011-02-07 01:20:29 <xelister> we could petition them and order like 100 pieces :P
 93 2011-02-07 01:20:34 <lfm> xelister: theyre trying to make 6990 instead
 94 2011-02-07 01:20:38 <ArtForz> yep
 95 2011-02-07 01:20:41 <xelister> we would all (bitcoiners) buik order like 100 chips
 96 2011-02-07 01:20:46 <xelister> *bulk
 97 2011-02-07 01:20:55 <xelister> 50 cards
 98 2011-02-07 01:21:17 <xelister> and if they fix their FUCKING SHIT DRIVERS SHIT these cards actually have many good uses besides mining
 99 2011-02-07 01:21:25 <lfm> sure if you wanna pay $1000/card or more
100 2011-02-07 01:22:06 <ArtForz> what I heard they're using most of their contingent of TMSC 40nm runs to make caymans
101 2011-02-07 01:22:13 <xelister> lfm: its not like if they totally dismantled the lines to produce them and throw away all needed blueprints
102 2011-02-07 01:22:26 <ArtForz> ATI is fabless
103 2011-02-07 01:22:43 <xelister> so whipe the factory workers to make chips faster
104 2011-02-07 01:22:46 <ArtForz> they're getting their shit fabbed by TSMC
105 2011-02-07 01:23:11 <ArtForz> well, at lest up to 28nm 7xxx, there they want to dual-source from TSMC and GF
106 2011-02-07 01:23:12 <xelister> taiwan! who would have guessed
107 2011-02-07 01:23:23 <lfm> anyway theres still cards out there if you wanna pay for em
108 2011-02-07 01:23:24 <ArtForz> btw, for multiproject wafers, see http://www.mosis.com/
109 2011-02-07 01:23:55 <xelister> we should hire yakuza to get that factory
110 2011-02-07 01:24:19 <xelister> if we would smuggle there some pollocks, Im sure they can steal entire factory and we can reassemble it with russian scientists =)
111 2011-02-07 01:24:54 <xelister> what we need is 100 bottles of vodka, and contact to Yakuza. btw we can ask them to release Satoshi
112 2011-02-07 01:24:57 <xelister> :}
113 2011-02-07 01:27:14 <xelister> is temp steys < 80 C, then there is no risk of permanently demaging 5xxx cards with oc?
114 2011-02-07 01:27:16 <xelister> *if
115 2011-02-07 01:27:42 <xelister> I was asking last time but still, is there any ready-to-use program I can run on linux to verify if the hashes are correctly generated
116 2011-02-07 01:27:47 <lfm> my 5770 runs 70C with no fan 100% load
117 2011-02-07 01:28:21 <lfm> xelister ya bitcoin will do that if you set it up right
118 2011-02-07 01:28:23 <xelister> I ment can there be other damage to the GPU, then from overheating, during normal but overclocked usage
119 2011-02-07 01:28:41 <lfm> xelist sure you could overvolt it
120 2011-02-07 01:28:48 <xelister> yea, but without overvolting
121 2011-02-07 01:29:01 <xelister> lfm: well, I am not getting any INVALID blocks, but only blocks that look ok (G==0) are checked more in detail
122 2011-02-07 01:29:03 <newsham> dont oversha it
123 2011-02-07 01:29:15 <xelister> newsham: ?
124 2011-02-07 01:29:28 <lfm> your getting into theoretical then. metal whisker formation and drifting traces
125 2011-02-07 01:29:31 <newsham> too many hashes
126 2011-02-07 01:31:14 <lfm> um g=0 you mean h=0? if the rate of h=0 is as expected then you should be fine
127 2011-02-07 01:31:40 <xelister> yea
128 2011-02-07 01:32:01 <lfm> or join a pool where h=0 is a share that pays
129 2011-02-07 01:32:39 <newsham> anyone betting on pitts?
130 2011-02-07 01:34:27 <Cusipzzz> i wish, got a lot of gb action :/
131 2011-02-07 01:34:55 <newsham> whats your line?
132 2011-02-07 01:35:12 <Cusipzzz> no i mean people picked gb against me a lt.. -2.5 and 3
133 2011-02-07 01:35:19 <Cusipzzz> lot
134 2011-02-07 01:35:50 <Cusipzzz> i wanted pitt to win :(
135 2011-02-07 01:36:00 <newsham> doesnt look likely
136 2011-02-07 01:36:05 <Cusipzzz> i know, sigh
137 2011-02-07 01:52:48 <newsham> still a chance, cus
138 2011-02-07 01:52:57 <Cusipzzz> ya, for a sec looked good
139 2011-02-07 01:52:59 <Cusipzzz> not now
140 2011-02-07 01:53:18 <newsham> :)
141 2011-02-07 01:58:06 <newsham> still possible
142 2011-02-07 01:58:41 <Cusipzzz> yes
143 2011-02-07 02:06:53 <newsham> sorry cusi
144 2011-02-07 02:09:21 <Cusipzzz> eh, it's ok..good for publicity to lose and pay :)
145 2011-02-07 02:10:01 <newsham> were there any bookmakers taking btc for this game?
146 2011-02-07 02:18:41 <Cusipzzz> newsham: i was
147 2011-02-07 02:18:48 <Cusipzzz> lol, that's what i'm talking about
148 2011-02-07 02:18:54 <Cusipzzz> most people bet green bay
149 2011-02-07 02:19:03 <Cusipzzz> btcsportsbet.com
150 2011-02-07 02:20:11 <newsham> need to pick a line that gets 50% on each side
151 2011-02-07 02:20:30 <newsham> ie. greenbay by 10
152 2011-02-07 02:21:24 <Cusipzzz> lol...then i get killed by sharp bettors taking a middle with another book
153 2011-02-07 02:22:50 <Cusipzzz> like i said, good pub to pay people, have them withdraw, test things out.
154 2011-02-07 02:23:36 <newsham> what was the line from the pros?
155 2011-02-07 02:24:21 <xelister> btc > @1.00 USD will actually have a downside: it will be not possible to represent USD prices with enough granuality in btc (min 0.01 btc)?
156 2011-02-07 02:24:59 <Cusipzzz> newsham: -2.5 all week then -3 today
157 2011-02-07 02:25:04 <newsham> xelister: clients can adjust to more decimal places if needed
158 2011-02-07 02:25:21 <newsham> cusi: pitts by 3?  or greenbay by 3?
159 2011-02-07 02:25:27 <Cusipzzz> gb -3
160 2011-02-07 02:25:34 <newsham> you can tell i dont follow football :)
161 2011-02-07 02:25:53 <newsham> whats the line on this?  http://www.surfnewsnetwork.com/index.php?content_id=37&photo_id=24858&photo_typeid=10
162 2011-02-07 02:26:44 <Cusipzzz> don't take durfing, sorry.. football, basketball, hockey, soccer, esports (starcraft, etc)
163 2011-02-07 02:26:49 <Cusipzzz> surfing*
164 2011-02-07 02:27:01 <Cusipzzz> also boxing/mma
165 2011-02-07 02:28:56 <xelister> newsham: well, transfer < 0.01 btc are not possible
166 2011-02-07 02:29:15 <andrew12> they are possible, they just have a fee
167 2011-02-07 02:30:42 <xelister> send 0.007 btc with 0.010 fee - what sense does it make?  then it costs 0.017 btc to send 0.007, so I may as well just pay the man 0.01 ?
168 2011-02-07 02:32:34 <newsham> xelister: thats not a btc limitation, thats a limit built into the cline that can be adjusted by recompiling
169 2011-02-07 02:32:58 <newsham> as long as the majority of people are usign a clien that supports <0.01btc xfers it wont be a problem
170 2011-02-07 02:33:05 <newsham> but yah, it will prob need to be adjsted
171 2011-02-07 02:33:49 <newsham> i wonder if they're already working on that or not
172 2011-02-07 02:34:05 <newsham> since btc=$ is at the door
173 2011-02-07 02:34:51 <luke-jr> there's nothing to "work on"
174 2011-02-07 02:34:53 <luke-jr> it's a trivial modification
175 2011-02-07 02:35:18 <luke-jr> I agree it should be tweaked probably by the next version or so
176 2011-02-07 02:35:27 <xelister> but who makes such decissions
177 2011-02-07 02:35:28 <luke-jr> maybe just change the fee to 10% or something
178 2011-02-07 02:35:32 <xelister> perhaps there should be like an commitet
179 2011-02-07 02:35:36 <xelister> like C++ ISO
180 2011-02-07 02:35:41 <luke-jr> the committee is user adoption
181 2011-02-07 02:35:43 <xelister> (but perhaps working a bit faster LOL <_<)
182 2011-02-07 02:35:48 <luke-jr> or rather, miner adoption
183 2011-02-07 02:35:49 <tcatm> we're currently busy preparing 0.3.20 for release, but yeah, I think going to 4 decimal places (I'd like to avoid 3 because of confusion with . and ,) would be a good idea if price stays at current level or rises even further
184 2011-02-07 02:36:12 <luke-jr> we could always move it to a Tonal unit :
185 2011-02-07 02:36:49 <newsham> luke: right but it needs to be done before a release :)
186 2011-02-07 02:36:52 <luke-jr> 1 TBC = 0.00065536, possibly a good stop-gap for a while
187 2011-02-07 02:37:13 <luke-jr> of course, that might pose a problem for tcatm's reasons
188 2011-02-07 02:37:21 <luke-jr> BTC would end up using 3 decimal points
189 2011-02-07 02:38:01 <luke-jr> I like the idea of using 4 decimal points, and a fixed 8% fee for smaller sizes
190 2011-02-07 02:38:06 <newsham> but then again, the US penny is hardly worth dealing with
191 2011-02-07 02:38:16 <tcatm> Tonal Bitcoin won't make it into the official client for the next few hundred years
192 2011-02-07 02:38:29 <luke-jr> so to send 0.00001, you pay a 0.000008 fee :p
193 2011-02-07 02:38:32 <newsham> prob getting rid of 0.01usd makes mroe sense ;-)
194 2011-02-07 02:38:37 <luke-jr> tcatm: s/official/original
195 2011-02-07 02:38:54 <luke-jr> tcatm: and that mainly because of the people using Tonal, I am one of the few programmers, and I don't use wx :p
196 2011-02-07 02:39:22 <luke-jr> actually, using a % doesn't solve the micro-tx problem 9
197 2011-02-07 02:39:51 <Cusipzzz> tcatm: thank you
198 2011-02-07 02:39:53 <newsham> pennies suck!
199 2011-02-07 02:39:59 <newsham> (that should be a tshirt)
200 2011-02-07 02:40:25 <luke-jr> tbh, I don't think it will REALLY be a problem until we hit $10/BTC
201 2011-02-07 02:40:48 <newsham> in fairness, micropayments is exactly where something like btc would shine
202 2011-02-07 02:41:12 <newsham> like every time i say something witty on #bitcoin-dev I should be receiving a flurry of subcent appreciation payments
203 2011-02-07 02:41:18 <luke-jr> newsham: until we hit $10/BTC, you're talking under 10 cents :p
204 2011-02-07 02:41:38 <newsham> 10c isnt a micropayment
205 2011-02-07 02:41:50 <newsham> think "stamps for ip packets"
206 2011-02-07 02:41:53 <newsham> or something on that order
207 2011-02-07 02:42:47 <luke-jr> I don't really care so long as we can send single TBC units by the $16/BTC mark (at which point 1 TBC = $0.01)
208 2011-02-07 02:43:16 <newsham> all i hear is "blah blah blah tonal blah blah blah"
209 2011-02-07 02:43:48 <luke-jr> probably the correct solution is to have a proper configuration interface for mining
210 2011-02-07 02:43:50 <tcatm> luke-jr should print tonal dollars :)
211 2011-02-07 02:43:59 <luke-jr> let the end user specify fees
212 2011-02-07 02:44:09 <ArtForz> mining alone isnt the problem
213 2011-02-07 02:44:32 <luke-jr> tcatm: I lack the authority to issue a fiat currency, the backing to issue a backed currency, & :p
214 2011-02-07 02:44:35 <ArtForz> nowadays transactions not carrying enough fees arent even forwarded by network nodes
215 2011-02-07 02:44:56 <newsham> no trade on mtgox in nearly 3hrs
216 2011-02-07 02:45:30 <newsham> what is "enough fees" currently?
217 2011-02-07 02:46:28 <newsham> thats like saying "I lack the authority to give out poker chips"
218 2011-02-07 02:46:47 <ArtForz> iirc enough = "it'll make into a block already containing 1000 Byte of coinbase/other TX"
219 2011-02-07 02:47:18 <ArtForz> so it only affects really big transactions and < 0.01 microTX
220 2011-02-07 02:47:57 <ArtForz> but this means we have to get a large majority of nodes to upgrade just to *forward* fee-less 0.001 tx
221 2011-02-07 02:48:06 <ArtForz> well, not really a large majority
222 2011-02-07 02:48:19 <ArtForz> but a decent chunk
223 2011-02-07 02:49:19 <tcatm> we could lower fees a few releases before we actually change the RPC and UI to accept more decimals
224 2011-02-07 02:49:49 <ArtForz> well, accepting more decimals isnt the problem imo
225 2011-02-07 02:49:58 <newsham> ahh, centrally planned economies ;-)
226 2011-02-07 02:50:11 <newsham> isnt it ironic?
227 2011-02-07 02:50:51 <ArtForz> but yeah
228 2011-02-07 02:51:04 <luke-jr> newsham: fiat currencies are enforced by law
229 2011-02-07 02:51:43 <luke-jr> tcatm: No.
230 2011-02-07 02:52:00 <ArtForz> first release a version that accepts/forwards 0.001 tx, later release one that actually creates them
231 2011-02-07 02:52:11 <luke-jr> ArtForz: without fees*
232 2011-02-07 02:52:14 <ArtForz> yes
233 2011-02-07 02:52:17 <ArtForz> at the same time we'll also have to change min fee to 0.001
234 2011-02-07 02:52:29 <ArtForz> well, not *have to*, but it'd be weird otherwise
235 2011-02-07 02:52:29 <luke-jr> 0.0001 for reasons tcatm mentioned
236 2011-02-07 02:52:35 <newsham> dont forget to project ahead to $10/btc.
237 2011-02-07 02:52:50 <newsham> which could hapen as early as summer.
238 2011-02-07 02:53:00 <luke-jr> 1,001 looks like 1.001 to Europeans
239 2011-02-07 02:53:02 <newsham> i guess 2 decimal digits would cover that
240 2011-02-07 02:53:03 <luke-jr> >.>
241 2011-02-07 02:53:28 <newsham> err 2 more decimal digits
242 2011-02-07 02:54:14 <ArtForz> well, I'd just drop rounding
243 2011-02-07 02:54:36 <ArtForz> 1.00100000 doesnt confuse anyone
244 2011-02-07 02:55:48 <luke-jr> 1.001 isn't rounding :p
245 2011-02-07 02:55:49 <tcatm> we could drop rounding once the RPC sendfrom can handle fees
246 2011-02-07 02:56:05 <luke-jr> tcatm: it already does
247 2011-02-07 02:56:12 <luke-jr> just not "right"
248 2011-02-07 02:56:33 <luke-jr> if it couldn't handle fees, people would have issues with large tx
249 2011-02-07 02:56:55 <luke-jr> also, consensus seems to be on integer base units (as it should be)
250 2011-02-07 02:57:15 <newsham> one thing that bothers me (only slightly) is that you ship bitcoin participants with policies.
251 2011-02-07 02:57:17 <tcatm> integer base units can wait
252 2011-02-07 02:57:20 <newsham> rather than let participants choose their own policies
253 2011-02-07 02:57:23 <luke-jr> tcatm: no
254 2011-02-07 02:57:28 <luke-jr> tcatm: they are needed today.
255 2011-02-07 02:57:46 <newsham> why not let participants pick the fees and tx sizes they're willing to deal with?
256 2011-02-07 02:57:49 <luke-jr> newsham: [22:43:48] <luke-jr> probably the correct solution is to have a proper configuration interface for mining[22:43:58] <luke-jr> let the end user specify fees
257 2011-02-07 02:57:54 <ArtForz> newsham: so you want every node to forward or not forward tx based on arbitrary criteria?
258 2011-02-07 02:58:05 <newsham> artforz: essentially, yes.
259 2011-02-07 02:58:12 <luke-jr> ArtForz: you can't stop them.
260 2011-02-07 02:58:18 <luke-jr> I'd make it an "Advanced" option page
261 2011-02-07 02:58:18 <newsham> mind you i havent though tthis through very deeply :)
262 2011-02-07 02:58:21 <luke-jr> with reasonable defaults
263 2011-02-07 02:58:21 <newsham> but thats my general hunch
264 2011-02-07 02:58:33 <tcatm> could cause harm to the network. some users like to tweak options without knowing what they do.
265 2011-02-07 02:58:55 <newsham> at the very least it seems to fit better with the spirit of bitcoin (decentralized currency without central bank)
266 2011-02-07 02:59:02 <ArtForz> well, they can already change the rules, just edit main.h and recompile
267 2011-02-07 02:59:16 <newsham> but as lukejr points out, clients can aalready modify the policy.. its just currently a lot of work
268 2011-02-07 02:59:21 <newsham> right
269 2011-02-07 02:59:45 <newsham> so why not stop pretending, put it in an easily changed config file and publish it
270 2011-02-07 02:59:48 <newsham> and let the market vote?
271 2011-02-07 02:59:55 <newsham> prob most people will accept the stock policy
272 2011-02-07 03:00:07 <newsham> so there'lls till be lots of power in the hands of the bitcoin standard client team
273 2011-02-07 03:00:13 <newsham> at least as long as there is a single client
274 2011-02-07 03:00:31 <newsham> *shrug*  just random not fully baked thoughts :)
275 2011-02-07 03:03:34 <ArtForz> random thought, shouldnt we have some means in the protocol for nodes to announce their fee schedule?
276 2011-02-07 03:05:17 <tcatm> interesting idea. But what should the client show as TX fee? Will it depend on what nodes it is connected to?
277 2011-02-07 03:05:19 <dirtyfilthy> there won't be just a single client for long though.
278 2011-02-07 03:05:33 <dirtyfilthy> i've been wondering what will happen when we have slightly different implementations
279 2011-02-07 03:05:54 <tcatm> worst case: chain split
280 2011-02-07 03:06:12 <ArtForz> as long as they follow the same rules for what is a valid block/tx... nothing really
281 2011-02-07 03:07:08 <dirtyfilthy> supposing they follow rules that are subtly different through programming error
282 2011-02-07 03:07:17 <ArtForz> worst case, chain split
283 2011-02-07 03:07:29 <ArtForz> see 0.3.8 vs. 0.3.10
284 2011-02-07 03:07:56 <tcatm> I also doubt we'll see a full replacement for the original client soon
285 2011-02-07 03:09:18 <dirtyfilthy> how come?
286 2011-02-07 03:10:09 <jgarzik> too many mechanics, like proper double-spend detection or chain split handling, are built into the C++ implementation.  it's an ugly implementation, in terms of code beauty, but it's proven.
287 2011-02-07 03:10:38 <jgarzik> I think we'll see some python-based daemon implementations eventually
288 2011-02-07 03:10:46 <midnightmagic_> i find the code to be very beautiful.
289 2011-02-07 03:11:05 <luke-jr> I'm hopeful for QBitCoin
290 2011-02-07 03:11:14 <luke-jr> just wish MT`AwAy would develop it openly
291 2011-02-07 03:11:23 <jgarzik> the threading is completely nutters
292 2011-02-07 03:11:26 <midnightmagic_> extremely simple, and elegant. i have fewer problems grokking through bitcoin source than the typical non-core utility program on Linux.
293 2011-02-07 03:12:51 <luke-jr> and so long as the original client developers continue to oppress/ignore Tonal, I have no interest in using it beyond necessity
294 2011-02-07 03:13:42 <dissipate_> hello, can someone tell me in a nutshell how bitcoin could scale to millions or billions of nodes?
295 2011-02-07 03:13:42 <midnightmagic_> "oppress"?
296 2011-02-07 03:13:59 <dirtyfilthy> hmmmm, dealing with chain splits is the next thing on my agenda
297 2011-02-07 03:13:59 <midnightmagic_> can you find a single other person who wants to adopt tonal?
298 2011-02-07 03:14:17 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: some people have actively tried to oppose Tonal usage of bitcoin
299 2011-02-07 03:14:27 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: certainly, there is even a Facebook group
300 2011-02-07 03:14:31 <dirtyfilthy> i'm not gonna worry about detecting double spending, indeed i can't with just the headers for the initial block d/l
301 2011-02-07 03:14:38 <midnightmagic_> from what I can see, you have a patchset which is specific just to you, and they are denying your patches because the use is single-user-specific. how is that oppression?
302 2011-02-07 03:14:38 <tcatm> dissipate_: easy as long as it doesn't need to scale over night and we have some time tweaking it to scale well
303 2011-02-07 03:14:41 <dissipate_> luke-jr, what is tonal?
304 2011-02-07 03:15:02 <midnightmagic_> wait, don't answer that, it was a rhetorical question..
305 2011-02-07 03:15:07 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: my patches aren't even Tonal-specific, they just fix design flaws that interfere with Tonal
306 2011-02-07 03:15:15 <afed> yeah when is this whole thing going to collapse, i want to sell my bitcoins at the highest possible price
307 2011-02-07 03:15:16 <dissipate_> tcatm, producing new blocks would be a major problem once you start scaling big time, IMO
308 2011-02-07 03:15:16 <luke-jr> dissipate_: alternative to decimal
309 2011-02-07 03:15:33 <ArtForz> why?
310 2011-02-07 03:15:38 <dissipate_> luke-jr, link as to how it works? is it arbitrary big decimal precision?
311 2011-02-07 03:15:40 <ArtForz> move from flat broadcast p2p to a p2p network of hubs with normal clients and miners as leaves
312 2011-02-07 03:16:11 <tcatm> we already have miners as leaves with getwork (even though it's ugly)
313 2011-02-07 03:16:12 <luke-jr> dissipate_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonal_System has a summary; http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/tonal-system/10991090 has a (free) PDF of the original book
314 2011-02-07 03:16:16 <dirtyfilthy> for a thin client, when the longest chain changes, i just need to rebroadcast any of my transactions that were in blocks that are no longer in longest chain?
315 2011-02-07 03:16:29 <ArtForz> tcatm: yup
316 2011-02-07 03:16:40 <luke-jr> dissipate_: BitCoin-specific Tonal specifications are on the wiki
317 2011-02-07 03:17:18 <dissipate_> ArtForz, here is the problem. if the usage of BTC takes off, the number of transactions will increase, and also people will probably demand much faster transaction verification times than the current ones. the faster the blocks are produced, the more difficult it is to coordinate block production among the miners.
318 2011-02-07 03:17:29 <dissipate_> luke-jr, thanks
319 2011-02-07 03:17:39 <jgarzik> Tonal resides in the twin categories of "silly" and "has a userbase of one"
320 2011-02-07 03:17:42 <luke-jr> dissipate_: it is basically impossible to make transactions any faster
321 2011-02-07 03:17:50 <luke-jr> jgarzik: FUD
322 2011-02-07 03:18:02 <dissipate_> luke-jr, why is that?
323 2011-02-07 03:18:05 <midnightmagic_> the only way to make transactions faster is to use bitcoins as a backing for another instantaneous-transfer mechanism.
324 2011-02-07 03:18:18 <luke-jr> dissipate_: the entire p2p network is designed to target 10 minutes per block
325 2011-02-07 03:18:48 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: read the snack machine thread?
326 2011-02-07 03:18:58 <tcatm> and faster confirmations => lower difficulty => need to wait for more confirmations => nothing changes
327 2011-02-07 03:18:59 <luke-jr> jgarzik: Tonal is rationally the better choice; closed-minded people just refuse to use it because they're against learning
328 2011-02-07 03:19:00 <midnightmagic_> i did, when i first joined these channels.
329 2011-02-07 03:19:06 <midnightmagic_> i've forgotten most of it by now.
330 2011-02-07 03:19:08 <dissipate_> tonal system has 'tonbong'? lmao :D
331 2011-02-07 03:19:33 <luke-jr> dissipate_: Tonal came before the modern slang :/
332 2011-02-07 03:19:35 <ArtForz> much less than that and you get too many chain forks, much more than that and blocks take ages
333 2011-02-07 03:19:39 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: i'm pretty sure there's more to their refusal than "being against learning"
334 2011-02-07 03:19:53 <dissipate_> tcatm, that is a pretty bad problem then
335 2011-02-07 03:19:53 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: such as?
336 2011-02-07 03:19:59 <ArtForz> why?
337 2011-02-07 03:20:09 <hacim> luke-jr: i have no idea what it even is, except for something that you keep talking about
338 2011-02-07 03:20:10 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: it's basically the same problem as people who refuse to learn Dvorak because they're happy with Qwerty
339 2011-02-07 03:20:23 <luke-jr> hacim: ?
340 2011-02-07 03:20:31 <hacim> luke-jr: tonal
341 2011-02-07 03:20:34 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: it's not good practice to put single-user-specific code into something as crucial as a bitcoin node, on which, out there, someone with 400,000 bitcoins depends.
342 2011-02-07 03:20:35 <dissipate_> jgarzik, link to snack machine thread?
343 2011-02-07 03:20:44 <luke-jr> hacim: [23:16:11] <luke-jr> dissipate_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonal_System has a summary; http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/tonal-system/10991090 has a (free) PDF of the original book
344 2011-02-07 03:20:58 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: there is *nothing* Tonal-specific about the changes I made.
345 2011-02-07 03:21:01 <tcatm> I think it's totally fine to transfer serious amounts of money within one hour across the internet securely. There's nothing else that could do that.
346 2011-02-07 03:21:06 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: I am also not the only person using Tonal
347 2011-02-07 03:21:08 <tcatm> Sucks for micro TX, though :P
348 2011-02-07 03:21:19 <ArtForz> yep
349 2011-02-07 03:21:27 <dissipate_> tcatm, one hour??
350 2011-02-07 03:21:38 <tcatm> 6 confirmations
351 2011-02-07 03:21:42 <dissipate_> tcatm, another system called loom.cc is pretty much instantaneous for any amount.
352 2011-02-07 03:21:44 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: though I may be the last Tonal user to use BitCoin, if people oppose it too much
353 2011-02-07 03:21:56 <jgarzik> dissipate_: snack machine thread (fast confirmations): http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=423.0;all
354 2011-02-07 03:22:08 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: then you and that other person run your fork. why would you expect other people to promote, debug, qa, and release your work when they don't want to?
355 2011-02-07 03:22:09 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: Tonal support is an incentive for us to use BitCoin; otherwise, the local fiat currencies work just as well
356 2011-02-07 03:22:12 <dissipate_> guys i'm sorry but these confirmation times are going to be a serious problem.
357 2011-02-07 03:22:15 <tcatm> dissipate_: loom.cc has a central server IIRC
358 2011-02-07 03:22:27 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: again, my changes are not Tonal specific. they fix bugs that need fixing.
359 2011-02-07 03:22:32 <dissipate_> tcatm, true, but it is instantaneous
360 2011-02-07 03:22:38 <hacim> so... how should I use tonal
361 2011-02-07 03:22:46 <midnightmagic_> but you are wrapping your fixes into tonal acceptance, and that is a sort of blackmail.
362 2011-02-07 03:22:49 <tcatm> add a central server to bitcoin (like mybitcoin) and you can do the same
363 2011-02-07 03:22:56 <ArtForz> tcatm: agreed
364 2011-02-07 03:23:00 <jgarzik> I think fast confirmations are possible, with a decent, distributed set of links into the P2P network.
365 2011-02-07 03:23:25 <ArtForz> well, not faster than block time really
366 2011-02-07 03:23:28 <luke-jr> hacim: if you seriously want to learn it, I'd be glad to talk further on that in #Tonal ; however, don't feel like you have to. My goal here is not to destroy Decimal BitCoin, merely to allow us to reasonably use BitCoin with Tonal also.
367 2011-02-07 03:23:46 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: huh?
368 2011-02-07 03:23:49 <tcatm> add some secure communication protocol between services like mybitcoin, mtgox and bitcoin central and you can have instant confirmations between a lot of users
369 2011-02-07 03:24:11 <hacim> luke-jr: i'm not sure why I'd want to learn it yet
370 2011-02-07 03:24:13 <midnightmagic_> can your patches be separated into "stuff which supports tonal" and "stuff which fixes problems in the main codebase"?
371 2011-02-07 03:24:23 <ArtForz> hmmm, and hope none of them starts cheating
372 2011-02-07 03:24:25 <luke-jr> hacim: basically, it's easier to work with once you know it
373 2011-02-07 03:24:36 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: there is *nothing* Tonal specific at all right now
374 2011-02-07 03:24:46 <tcatm> if you run your own bitcoin client it'll be slower, just like if you'd need to go to the ATM to get real money before you can spend it
375 2011-02-07 03:25:09 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: in *any* of my patches
376 2011-02-07 03:25:09 <midnightmagic_> if that is so, and your patches truly fix things, then I would oppose the opposition to the adoption of your patches.
377 2011-02-07 03:25:45 <dissipate_> can someone explain the mechanism of paying for a faster transaction verification time
378 2011-02-07 03:25:48 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: the majority seem to still support the fixes
379 2011-02-07 03:26:04 <newsham> re fee schedule: if peers and mienrs advertised their fee schedule couldnt you at least show a rough chart of fee per likely delay?
380 2011-02-07 03:26:07 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: although my specific patches probably need rewriting, in consideration of some critique made on *how* they're implemented
381 2011-02-07 03:26:09 <dissipate_> if 6 blocks per hour is the fastest it can go, what is the point of paying for something faster??
382 2011-02-07 03:26:25 <ArtForz> simple, those transactions dont ever touch the block chain
383 2011-02-07 03:26:26 <midnightmagic_> dissipate_: in-person shopping.
384 2011-02-07 03:26:42 <newsham> ie: 75% of nodes will accept tx for 2%, 85% will accept for 1.8%, ...
385 2011-02-07 03:26:43 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: tbh, nobody wants to wait 10 minutes to checkout :p
386 2011-02-07 03:27:27 <dissipate_> ArtForz, huh??
387 2011-02-07 03:27:38 <dissipate_> midnightmagic, what's 'in-person' shopping?
388 2011-02-07 03:27:42 <ArtForz> the tx is valid before it gets into the chain
389 2011-02-07 03:27:53 <newsham> maybe peers could keep some recent hsitory of tx fee vs. delay?
390 2011-02-07 03:27:59 <newsham> that would provide real measurements vs estimates
391 2011-02-07 03:28:04 <newsham> (instead of estimates i mean)
392 2011-02-07 03:28:05 <dissipate_> ArtForz, i don't get it. have a link to the documentation?
393 2011-02-07 03:28:09 <andrew12> woo, 29 days of uptime on here
394 2011-02-07 03:28:16 <ArtForz> what documentation?
395 2011-02-07 03:28:22 <newsham> ie "95% of TXs with a fee >= 1% were accepted in <20min)
396 2011-02-07 03:28:26 <dissipate_> ArtForz, to how the instantaneous verification works
397 2011-02-07 03:28:45 <newsham> with time decaying averages
398 2011-02-07 03:28:56 <ArtForz> by having merchants establish trust with "bitcoin banks"
399 2011-02-07 03:29:32 <dissipate_> oh snap, now we are back to a centralized system. :O
400 2011-02-07 03:29:37 <newsham> there are already sites that will let you clear btc denominated transactions faster
401 2011-02-07 03:29:40 <newsham> like mtgox
402 2011-02-07 03:29:43 <ArtForz> actually not centralized
403 2011-02-07 03:29:48 <newsham> it doesnt have to be centralized
404 2011-02-07 03:29:56 <newsham> but it does have advantages ;-)
405 2011-02-07 03:30:05 <dissipate_> ArtForz, how so?
406 2011-02-07 03:30:10 <ArtForz> there can easily be many such "banks" ala mybitcoin
407 2011-02-07 03:30:12 <newsham> also stop fooling yourself, artforz == central authority onbitcoin ;-)
408 2011-02-07 03:30:14 <dissipate_> ArtForz, a bank is a 'central' institution
409 2011-02-07 03:30:28 <newsham> by sheer cpu power
410 2011-02-07 03:30:31 <ArtForz> so if you have 10 competing private banks, which one is the central one?
411 2011-02-07 03:30:38 <echelon> bitcoincharts is being sloow
412 2011-02-07 03:31:30 <midnightmagic_> dissipate_: in-person shopping is someone wandering into a store and not wanting to wait for 10 minutes to walk away with their merchandise..
413 2011-02-07 03:31:45 <luke-jr> who cares if there's a central bank or not? :P
414 2011-02-07 03:31:55 <newsham> artforz: there are degrees of centralization
415 2011-02-07 03:32:07 <dissipate_> luke-jr, i do, because the feds could shut it down
416 2011-02-07 03:32:43 <newsham> midnight: and in person stores have a solution to this problem.. they trust visa to extend credit and setle transactions
417 2011-02-07 03:32:58 <newsham> so that customers without cash in pocket can still buy at your store
418 2011-02-07 03:33:05 <ArtForz> yep
419 2011-02-07 03:33:15 <ArtForz> merchants CAN accept 0/unconf payments just fine
420 2011-02-07 03:33:29 <dissipate_> ArtForz, what happens when the feds shut down the banks?
421 2011-02-07 03:33:38 <afed> what does it look like if a payment isn't confirmed
422 2011-02-07 03:33:46 <dissipate_> ArtForz, not a snack machine. :D
423 2011-02-07 03:33:51 <ArtForz> ?
424 2011-02-07 03:33:52 <afed> can a transaction go from 0/unconf to 0/never going to be confirmed
425 2011-02-07 03:33:54 <afed> 0/repudiated
426 2011-02-07 03:33:56 <afed> etc
427 2011-02-07 03:34:11 <luke-jr> yes
428 2011-02-07 03:34:22 <luke-jr> it can also go from 1/whatever to 0/never
429 2011-02-07 03:34:26 <ArtForz> it just goes from 0/unconf to "poof, gone"
430 2011-02-07 03:34:29 <midnightmagic_> ArtForz: wouldn't they have to worry that someone nearby has a wallet clone of their smartcard and is spending the same money?
431 2011-02-07 03:34:33 <ArtForz> yes
432 2011-02-07 03:34:39 <newsham> credit risk
433 2011-02-07 03:34:40 <dissipate_> ArtForz, i send the snack machine some bogus BTC and it gives me the snack before verifying
434 2011-02-07 03:34:47 <newsham> you charge a premium that covers your credit risk
435 2011-02-07 03:34:54 <afed> so if it goes poof, gone, then the bitcoins are never spent
436 2011-02-07 03:34:58 <afed> you just redo the transaction right?
437 2011-02-07 03:35:02 <newsham> and if that premium gets too high, you give up and stop taking purchases on credit
438 2011-02-07 03:35:03 <ArtForz> err... no
439 2011-02-07 03:35:13 <midnightmagic_> i guess technically *one* of the merchants will get paid..
440 2011-02-07 03:35:27 <ArtForz> well, *someone* will get paid
441 2011-02-07 03:35:45 <midnightmagic_> yea, course, good point.
442 2011-02-07 03:35:51 <ArtForz> you can't just unsped a coin, you have to send it elsewhere (usually to yourself instead of to the merchant)
443 2011-02-07 03:35:51 <dissipate_> all of these schemes seem way too complicated
444 2011-02-07 03:35:59 <ArtForz> ?
445 2011-02-07 03:36:42 <midnightmagic_> what we need is a smartcard which has a little lcd display on it.
446 2011-02-07 03:36:53 <ArtForz> yet merchants accept credit cards...
447 2011-02-07 03:36:54 <dissipate_> look, i am a merchant i want to accept BTC and i want instant verification, but i don't want to go through some pool account at a BTC 'bank'
448 2011-02-07 03:37:03 <newsham> dissipate: you're aware that when you buy something at the store with your visa card you can dispute the transaction and "unbuy" it, right?
449 2011-02-07 03:37:10 <ArtForz> yep
450 2011-02-07 03:37:15 <newsham> in which case the merchant eats the transaction ("chargeback")
451 2011-02-07 03:37:27 <luke-jr> newsham: or proves you authorized it
452 2011-02-07 03:37:30 <dissipate_> newsham, i am aware of that, but you understand that we are trying to build something superior to a credit card, right??
453 2011-02-07 03:37:34 <luke-jr> then YOU get hit with a fee IIRC
454 2011-02-07 03:37:36 <newsham> this stuff isnt unique to bitcoin.  it hapens in the real world
455 2011-02-07 03:37:43 <newsham> and there is a history of real world solutions
456 2011-02-07 03:37:48 <ArtForz> merchants generally just eat that risk and raise prices to compensate
457 2011-02-07 03:38:09 <midnightmagic_> with a chargeback, VISA fraud division kicks in and starts tracking criminals down.
458 2011-02-07 03:38:21 <dissipate_> newsham, then why would a merchant choose BTC over credit cards? they have a system in place that 'works' and it would cost them to implement a new system
459 2011-02-07 03:38:34 <midnightmagic_> dissipate_: freedom!
460 2011-02-07 03:38:52 <luke-jr> dissipate_: some of the people here assume everyone is in their little niche ;)
461 2011-02-07 03:38:54 <ArtForz> no fees, lower risk
462 2011-02-07 03:38:55 <dissipate_> midnightmagic_, sorry, merchants don't care about freedom.
463 2011-02-07 03:39:24 <xelister> what the fuck
464 2011-02-07 03:39:25 <xelister> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_AMD_graphics_processing_units#Mobility_Radeon_HD_5xxx_Series
465 2011-02-07 03:39:26 <newsham> you have a choice, you can take coins and wait for the tx to be confirmed, or you can take it on credit and eat the cost of fraud, or use a central transaction clearninghouse and let them hide the transaction latency for you
466 2011-02-07 03:39:29 <xelister> why 5970 is missing
467 2011-02-07 03:39:42 <xelister> no ... wait.  Shit Im blind.  disregard that.
468 2011-02-07 03:39:43 <ArtForz> mobility 5970 ?
469 2011-02-07 03:39:44 <tcatm> Who is polling markets.json every second from 5 different IPs?!
470 2011-02-07 03:39:55 <dissipate_> midnightmagic_, some merchants might, the vast majority don't. and frankly all they want to do is keep their head down and comply with all state regulations so they can be left alone to make a buck.
471 2011-02-07 03:39:55 <midnightmagic_> dissipate_: you're 100% wrong there. i was a retail store merchant for ..  oh maybe 10 years and I cared very much whenever VISA autocratically changed their acceptance procedures, and mastercard were being douchebags..
472 2011-02-07 03:39:56 <newsham> when you take things on credit, youc an use history information to limit risk (ie. "credit score")
473 2011-02-07 03:40:00 <newsham> if you can get some meaningful credit history
474 2011-02-07 03:40:22 <afed> who wants to establish a bitcoin credit reporting bureau
475 2011-02-07 03:40:24 <newsham> i leave it to you to figure out why a merchant might want to or not want to use btc :)
476 2011-02-07 03:40:39 <newsham> afed: one already exists (bitcoin-otc reputation)
477 2011-02-07 03:40:42 <luke-jr> afed: credit reporting BS is evil
478 2011-02-07 03:40:51 <afed> newsham: we need 3
479 2011-02-07 03:40:57 <newsham> probably ;-)
480 2011-02-07 03:41:11 <dissipate_> afed, hahaha, a credit bureau. you know that defeats the entire purpose of bitcoin, right?
481 2011-02-07 03:41:12 <midnightmagic_> or when american express refused to pay me until the customer paid their bill
482 2011-02-07 03:41:20 <afed> it's a redundancy system, if one is wrong it'll be out of whack with the other two
483 2011-02-07 03:41:24 <afed> why we have three IRL
484 2011-02-07 03:41:30 <newsham> i think pragmatically,  shopping cart transaction clearing banks will be popular if bitcoin is used for buying stuff on the web.
485 2011-02-07 03:41:33 <luke-jr> dissipate_: "purpose" is subjective
486 2011-02-07 03:41:33 <midnightmagic_> that was really infuriating..
487 2011-02-07 03:41:34 <newsham> ie. mtgox or other clearninghouse
488 2011-02-07 03:41:41 <dissipate_> midnightmagic_ so you were a merchant for 10 years, now what are you?
489 2011-02-07 03:42:12 <newsham> you can talk idealism and dream up the perfect solution all you want.
490 2011-02-07 03:42:20 <newsham> if it doesnt work for real world merchants, they wont use it
491 2011-02-07 03:42:34 <dissipate_> newsham, big problem. if BTC caught on those clearinghouses would be shut down by the feds. ever heard of 1mdc?
492 2011-02-07 03:42:39 <newsham> and they might use the same "real world" mechanisms you complain so much about instead
493 2011-02-07 03:43:06 <newsham> dissipate: btc getting shut down by the fed is a very real risk :)
494 2011-02-07 03:43:08 <midnightmagic_> dissipate_: well for the last ten years I was glorified technical support. i'm not sure what I am specifically, right now. i don't even know what my official job title is now..
495 2011-02-07 03:43:09 <newsham> egold ftw
496 2011-02-07 03:43:19 <dissipate_> midnightmagic_, are you planning on bringing bitcoin to point of sale?
497 2011-02-07 03:43:36 <midnightmagic_> it didn't occur to me to ask when i accepted the new position actually..  ha ha hilarious.
498 2011-02-07 03:43:37 <newsham> but thats a problem "if btc catches on".  you are going to probably hvae to embrace some of these flawes mechanisms if you hope it to catch on in the first place
499 2011-02-07 03:43:55 <newsham> the fed does not take kindly to people starting up their own currency
500 2011-02-07 03:43:59 <midnightmagic_> i guess "Performance Lab Engineer"
501 2011-02-07 03:44:07 <newsham> they sorta have a monopoly on that kinda thing in the usa :)
502 2011-02-07 03:44:44 <dissipate_> newsham, so there in lies the problem. in order for bitcoin to catch on it needs centralized clearing houses. but if it i does catch on, those clearing houses will be shut down, taking people's BTC with them.
503 2011-02-07 03:44:54 <newsham> dissipate: *nod*
504 2011-02-07 03:45:18 <midnightmagic_> dissipate_: I would absolutely if 1) there was a clean way of doing it, and 2) enough demand to make first-mover advantage profitable enough.
505 2011-02-07 03:45:23 <newsham> if its any comfort, it sems that people in china like to use video game currency for real world transactions despite the cntral govts objections :)
506 2011-02-07 03:45:50 <luke-jr> newsham: the US has actually shut down alternate currencies
507 2011-02-07 03:45:59 <dissipate_> newsham, it seems to me the solution is to increase the rate of block production
508 2011-02-07 03:46:02 <newsham> *nod*.. I did mention eGold not a few minutes ago
509 2011-02-07 03:46:04 <luke-jr> including taking lots of privately owned gold
510 2011-02-07 03:46:23 <dissipate_> luke-jr, e-gold and 1mdc got shut down
511 2011-02-07 03:46:23 <luke-jr> dissipate_: why do yuo assume that's possible?
512 2011-02-07 03:46:30 <luke-jr> and Liberty Dollar
513 2011-02-07 03:46:35 <dissipate_> but e-gold was really really dumb. they set up shop in Florida.
514 2011-02-07 03:46:44 <dissipate_> luke-jr, liberty dollar was dumb too
515 2011-02-07 03:46:50 <dissipate_> luke-jr, they set up in the U.S.
516 2011-02-07 03:47:07 <x6763> what's the purpose of the clearing house? (i missed much of this conversation)
517 2011-02-07 03:47:10 <dirtyfilthy> luke-jr: it's certainly *possible*, you change like one line in the source and get everyone to upgrade clients
518 2011-02-07 03:47:16 <dissipate_> luke-jr, i'm not assuming it is possible. but i think the possibility must be explored.
519 2011-02-07 03:47:44 <dissipate_> x6763, to overcome the problem of potentially slow transaction verifications
520 2011-02-07 03:47:58 <midnightmagic_> x6763: instantaneous transactions. dissipate_ seems to think btc is doomed because instant transactions aren't possible.
521 2011-02-07 03:48:22 <dissipate_> midnightmagic_, not doomed at all, just highly desirable
522 2011-02-07 03:48:32 <x6763> ah, ok...so something that allows instant transfers like mtgox, but people are worried they'll get shut down?
523 2011-02-07 03:48:37 <midnightmagic_> sorry if i mischaracterised your objection. :)
524 2011-02-07 03:48:45 <dissipate_> i mean bitcoin is not doomed because of the slow transaction verifications, but they are highly desirable
525 2011-02-07 03:48:45 <midnightmagic_> or start cheating.
526 2011-02-07 03:48:50 <newsham> ACH transactions arent instant either..
527 2011-02-07 03:48:55 <newsham> 2 days to clear?
528 2011-02-07 03:48:57 <newsham> still very useful
529 2011-02-07 03:49:00 <midnightmagic_> and basically be contrary to the bticoni philosophy
530 2011-02-07 03:49:17 <dissipate_> x6763, yep
531 2011-02-07 03:49:20 <newsham> also instant transactions are possible, its just that the trust doesnt come instantly ;-)
532 2011-02-07 03:49:27 <newsham> transaction verification isnt instant ;-)
533 2011-02-07 03:49:32 <dissipate_> x6763, if mt. gox got big enough they would be shut down by some government, i guarantee it.
534 2011-02-07 03:49:35 <dirtyfilthy> x6763: sup dude, how's the client going?
535 2011-02-07 03:49:46 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: what "bitcoin philosophy" is that?
536 2011-02-07 03:50:23 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: decentralised currency without a centralised must-trust authority.
537 2011-02-07 03:50:25 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: you're not going to get a majority of the world to adopt any "philosophy"; the technology had better be prepared to appeal to many different existing philosophies if it is to succeed
538 2011-02-07 03:50:45 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: except if the philosophy is "more freedom".
539 2011-02-07 03:50:45 <newsham> also perhaps bitcoin fails but gives good lessons for the next crypto currency
540 2011-02-07 03:50:48 <dissipate_> luke-jr, agreed!
541 2011-02-07 03:50:50 <newsham> wouldnt be the worst outcome in the world
542 2011-02-07 03:50:59 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: then only the niche of freedom-worshippers care
543 2011-02-07 03:51:17 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: everyone will choose more freedom, all else being equal.
544 2011-02-07 03:51:33 <dissipate_> luke-jr, vast majority of people don't care about freedom, but they will defect from centralized governments when the cost goes down.
545 2011-02-07 03:51:34 <midnightmagic_> .. they.. you know..  found countries on the principle..
546 2011-02-07 03:51:34 <x6763> dirtyfilthy: going good...still working on the private key thing with the little bits of time i have (creating a "drop-in" replacement sure does create a lot of extra work)...i managed to build some JCEECPrivateKey objects with the private keys from the wallet, though, but now I'm just working on making sure i get the serialization right
547 2011-02-07 03:51:38 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: you say this because you adhere to that philosophy
548 2011-02-07 03:52:02 <luke-jr> dissipate_: exactly. Bitcoin needs to appeal to other philosophical grounds to "win"
549 2011-02-07 03:52:14 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: I say this because entire continents of populations cherish that particular philosophy.
550 2011-02-07 03:52:16 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: some people have.
551 2011-02-07 03:52:31 <dissipate_> luke-jr, not really. i don't think it needs to appeal to any philosophy. it just needs to appeal to people's desire for more personal wealth.
552 2011-02-07 03:52:32 <luke-jr> still a minority
553 2011-02-07 03:52:39 <newsham> also perhaps fed kills btcin america but people keep using it elsewhere
554 2011-02-07 03:52:43 <newsham> also not a horrible outcome
555 2011-02-07 03:53:01 <dissipate_> luke-jr, what is a minority?
556 2011-02-07 03:53:09 <midnightmagic_> not quite the minority of 1 you implied. :)
557 2011-02-07 03:53:12 <luke-jr> dissipate_: people who care about freedom
558 2011-02-07 03:53:28 <dissipate_> luke-jr, that's exactly what i said.
559 2011-02-07 03:53:39 <dirtyfilthy> x6763: yeah i'm not going to bother with importing keys, people just send money to the wallet from their original client
560 2011-02-07 03:53:52 <dissipate_> luke-jr, people who desire more personal wealth are not necessarily people who consciously desire freedom. two different things.
561 2011-02-07 03:54:18 <luke-jr> dissipate_: two different philosophies Bitcoin might (or might not) appeal with
562 2011-02-07 03:54:33 <luke-jr> right now, Bitcoin doesn't have a strong appeal to greed afaik
563 2011-02-07 03:55:01 <newsham> lukejr: except for the huge $/btc bubble? :)
564 2011-02-07 03:55:04 <dissipate_> luke-jr, right now it doesn't but it has the potential to appeal to 'greed' (or whatever you call it) big time.
565 2011-02-07 03:55:11 <luke-jr> perhaps
566 2011-02-07 03:55:37 <luke-jr> it has the potential to appear to those with the intellectual interests to adopt the tonal system too
567 2011-02-07 03:55:41 <newsham> but btc today, sell it back next month for 2x$
568 2011-02-07 03:56:01 <dissipate_> luke-jr, my theory is that when people can defect from central governments at a relatively cheap price they will do so.
569 2011-02-07 03:56:01 <luke-jr> but so long as the freedom-worshippers insist on their-philosophy-only, that possibility might get killed off
570 2011-02-07 03:56:12 <presence> how long does it take a buy to go through
571 2011-02-07 03:56:16 <luke-jr> newsham: who guarantees that?
572 2011-02-07 03:56:29 <newsham> huh?  there is no guarantee
573 2011-02-07 03:56:35 <newsham> since when does greed require guarantees?
574 2011-02-07 03:56:38 <luke-jr> newsham: exactly.
575 2011-02-07 03:56:45 <dissipate_> luke-jr, we need to give people the ability to cut out the tax man. that's about it.
576 2011-02-07 03:56:56 <luke-jr> dissipate_: BitCoin cannot fight taxes.
577 2011-02-07 03:57:07 <x6763> dirtyfilthy: yeah, i made a lot of extra work for myself going this route, but i figured if i could complete a drop-in replacement bitcoin client, i'd have a fairly good understanding of how it all works
578 2011-02-07 03:57:16 <dissipate_> luke-jr, in it's current form or in theory?
579 2011-02-07 03:57:21 <luke-jr> dissipate_: either.
580 2011-02-07 03:57:25 <dissipate_> luke-jr, how so?
581 2011-02-07 03:57:36 <luke-jr> citizens still have a legal and moral obligation to pay taxes, no matter what currency
582 2011-02-07 03:57:40 <newsham> wow, i love the tax man..  i dig roads and schools and fire depts and having police and price stability and a judicial system and all kindsa fun things like that
583 2011-02-07 03:57:44 <dissipate_> luke-jr, seems natural that it could be used to do so quite cheaply and effectively
584 2011-02-07 03:57:45 <newsham> you dont like the tax man?
585 2011-02-07 03:58:17 <dissipate_> newsham, nope, i don't. i want all those things too but i want to decide how and when *I* will pay for them.
586 2011-02-07 03:58:22 <luke-jr> dissipate_: then how will governments fund their services?
587 2011-02-07 03:58:42 <dissipate_> newsham, except for 'schools'. glorified detention centers in my opinion.
588 2011-02-07 03:58:43 <newsham> dissipate: bumer.. i hope there arent too many people like you
589 2011-02-07 03:59:06 <newsham> tax dollars pay for artforz gpu farm! ;-)
590 2011-02-07 03:59:09 <dissipate_> newsham, how so?
591 2011-02-07 03:59:20 <newsham> he gets solar subsidies
592 2011-02-07 03:59:23 <luke-jr> dissipate_++
593 2011-02-07 03:59:30 <x6763> newsham: violence is not the answer
594 2011-02-07 03:59:37 <luke-jr> dissipate_: did you see that attack on tonal on the forum? :P
595 2011-02-07 03:59:46 <luke-jr> dissipate_: basically saying "if schools don't use it, it's worthless"
596 2011-02-07 03:59:47 <newsham> x6763: i agree.. i dont advocate violence..
597 2011-02-07 03:59:55 <x6763> newsham: yet you advocate governmetn?
598 2011-02-07 04:00:01 <dissipate_> luke-jr, nope i did not.
599 2011-02-07 04:00:01 <newsham> this is true.
600 2011-02-07 04:00:26 <prax> yeah you are in a spot of contradiction there newsham
601 2011-02-07 04:00:41 <dissipate_> let's face it people. the most honest man today would be an outlaw.
602 2011-02-07 04:01:03 <presence> wow
603 2011-02-07 04:01:08 <newsham> prax: and yet the lack of govt can also be quite violent.
604 2011-02-07 04:01:09 <presence> on a public channel
605 2011-02-07 04:01:19 <dissipate_> presence, what?
606 2011-02-07 04:01:51 <dissipate_> presence, who what where?
607 2011-02-07 04:01:56 <prax> right, more to it than just anarchy
608 2011-02-07 04:02:07 <dissipate_> newsham, i'll take violence over serfdom any day. :O
609 2011-02-07 04:02:35 <newsham> there can be serfs without govts, fwiw.
610 2011-02-07 04:02:46 <x6763> newsham: government is founded on violence...it needs to threaten and initiate violence to exist...it cannot exist in any effective form without violence
611 2011-02-07 04:02:55 <luke-jr> x6763: false.
612 2011-02-07 04:03:05 <newsham> x6763: there is violence both with and without govt.
613 2011-02-07 04:03:05 <prax> government is just institutionalization of aggression
614 2011-02-07 04:03:13 <luke-jr> violence is only required when citizens disobey.
615 2011-02-07 04:03:19 <prax> really need to make the distinction between violence and aggression
616 2011-02-07 04:03:25 <prax> some violence is justified
617 2011-02-07 04:03:30 <x6763> luke-jr: if citizens aren't disobeying, then there's no need for government anyway
618 2011-02-07 04:03:37 <x6763> "need"
619 2011-02-07 04:03:38 <luke-jr> x6763: yes, there is.
620 2011-02-07 04:03:44 <newsham> x6763: the number one cause of death in hunter-gatherer societies is murder.
621 2011-02-07 04:03:56 <newsham> thats non-govt violence.
622 2011-02-07 04:04:05 <newsham> err i think that was for prax
623 2011-02-07 04:04:15 <prax> kind of doubt that
624 2011-02-07 04:04:20 <x6763> oh geez, this is stupid...i'm not even going to argue this right now
625 2011-02-07 04:04:22 <prax> more like disease i bet
626 2011-02-07 04:04:31 <prax> yea me neither
627 2011-02-07 04:04:43 <Kiba> hmm
628 2011-02-07 04:04:46 <dirtyfilthy> in the glorious libertarian utopia we'll have corporations to initiate violence for/on us
629 2011-02-07 04:05:14 <newsham> fascism ftw, dirtyfilthy?
630 2011-02-07 04:05:21 <newsham> fascism seems quite popular in america right now
631 2011-02-07 04:05:38 <Kiba> Bitcoin law!
632 2011-02-07 04:05:40 <prax> it wouldnt be this "utopia" if that aggression wasnt punished
633 2011-02-07 04:05:41 <dissipate_> newsham, you don't think it is possible that government increases levels of violence? look at WW I, WW II and pretty much every other war in history. all bank rolled by governments.
634 2011-02-07 04:05:43 <dirtyfilthy> the industrial revolution was a golden age
635 2011-02-07 04:05:47 <Kiba> The law of bitcoin have no more force than what people say!
636 2011-02-07 04:05:50 <prax> corporations arent somehow exempt
637 2011-02-07 04:05:57 <Kiba> forged by economic bonds
638 2011-02-07 04:06:10 <dirtyfilthy> more children down the coal mines i say!
639 2011-02-07 04:06:11 <prax> yes it was dirty
640 2011-02-07 04:06:18 <newsham> dissipate: *shrug* there's definitely lots of govt sponsored violence.
641 2011-02-07 04:06:18 <prax> u know why people worked 14 hour days in factories
642 2011-02-07 04:06:23 <newsham> i dont know if its overall icnreased or decreased
643 2011-02-07 04:06:27 <prax> because they were poor as shit and dint want to starve
644 2011-02-07 04:06:33 <newsham> thats an interesting question.. iw onder if there are any good studies on that
645 2011-02-07 04:06:40 <Kiba> prax: how many hours do farmers work back then?
646 2011-02-07 04:06:49 <prax> idk kiba
647 2011-02-07 04:06:52 <prax> lots?
648 2011-02-07 04:07:12 <dirtyfilthy> this is exactly why we should get rid of these socialist "labour laws"
649 2011-02-07 04:07:12 <Kiba> hmm...probably
650 2011-02-07 04:07:18 <Kiba> maybe they work as much hours as coal miners
651 2011-02-07 04:07:33 <Kiba> or even more
652 2011-02-07 04:07:35 <Kiba> I don't know
653 2011-02-07 04:07:54 <prax> check out farming in old egypt
654 2011-02-07 04:07:57 <prax> pretty brutal
655 2011-02-07 04:08:17 <Kiba> google no good :/
656 2011-02-07 04:08:49 <newsham> dirthyfilthy: seriously.. if those with the means to production say you shoudl work 16hrs/day in the salt mine, its not the govts place to say otherwise!
657 2011-02-07 04:09:04 <Kiba> the moviation of labor law is to benefit unions and ban children as competitors!
658 2011-02-07 04:09:11 <dirtyfilthy> You move 16 tons and what do you get?
659 2011-02-07 04:09:11 <dissipate_> newsham, i suggest you look up essays and books by a modern philosopher called Anthony de Jasay. he explains why governments don't help society from a game theory perspective.
660 2011-02-07 04:09:40 <newsham> I'm not realy looking for an "explanation"
661 2011-02-07 04:09:45 <newsham> i would like to see numbers.
662 2011-02-07 04:09:46 <dirtyfilthy> dissipate_: all the interesting problems in game theory also show why a self-interested & "rational" market doesn't work
663 2011-02-07 04:10:01 <newsham> that cant be $20 on the floor
664 2011-02-07 04:10:03 <Kiba> human actors aren't rational..doesn't everybody know that?
665 2011-02-07 04:10:14 <x6763> Kiba: apparently not
666 2011-02-07 04:10:24 <Kiba> right, silly economists
667 2011-02-07 04:10:31 <x6763> lol
668 2011-02-07 04:10:59 <Kiba> dirtyfilthy: O RLY? governments doesn't work either!
669 2011-02-07 04:11:00 <dissipate_> dirtyfilthy, repeated prisoner's dilemma shows that a rational and self interested market does work actually.
670 2011-02-07 04:11:19 <Kiba> democracy is an exercise in mob rule
671 2011-02-07 04:11:20 <newsham> there's the small problem of market participants not beign rational
672 2011-02-07 04:11:26 <dirtyfilthy> tragedy of the commons for one
673 2011-02-07 04:11:35 <Kiba> dirtyfilthy: you fix that by property righting it
674 2011-02-07 04:11:38 <newsham> just because a market works if participants are rational doesnt make the participants rational
675 2011-02-07 04:11:48 <prax> no newsh the problem you are describing is lack of ex post knowledge
676 2011-02-07 04:12:37 <Kiba> humans make many irrational mistakes yet we are richers than all the kings in the past 2000 years except the modern day monarchy that get to sit on their fat lazy asses
677 2011-02-07 04:12:38 <dirtyfilthy> Kiba: how do you "property right" a river? or pollution?
678 2011-02-07 04:12:50 <Kiba> sue people upstream?
679 2011-02-07 04:12:58 <Kiba> sue factories for polluting?
680 2011-02-07 04:13:11 <dirtyfilthy> and who enforces they suits?
681 2011-02-07 04:13:14 <prax> hallmark of statist here, lack of imagination
682 2011-02-07 04:13:19 <prax> statists*
683 2011-02-07 04:13:20 <newsham> cap'n trade? ;-)
684 2011-02-07 04:13:52 <prax> big diff between state and free market system
685 2011-02-07 04:14:28 <prax> pretty much the same as on all the other issues you cant figure out
686 2011-02-07 04:14:36 <Kiba> the state is actually the biggest pollutors!
687 2011-02-07 04:14:38 <newsham> kiba: my hunch is that its a temporary status.  technology advanced us faster than population could hold us back
688 2011-02-07 04:14:44 <newsham> but dont worry, we'll lose in the end
689 2011-02-07 04:14:50 <dissipate_> 'small' government folk don't understand that they are just selecting 1 system out of a pool of many possibilities and denying that the other possibilities could work.
690 2011-02-07 04:14:53 <Kiba> who's going to sue the state?
691 2011-02-07 04:15:06 <Kiba> dissipate_: well, I don't exactly know the answer to every problem
692 2011-02-07 04:15:17 <Kiba> but the government is s till like the biggest environmental pollutors
693 2011-02-07 04:15:24 <Kiba> plus you have the problem of who watch the regulators?
694 2011-02-07 04:15:37 <dirtyfilthy> the electors, in theory
695 2011-02-07 04:15:49 <newsham> /topic #bitcoin-dev political philosophy
696 2011-02-07 04:15:54 <newsham> /away
697 2011-02-07 04:16:06 <Kiba> and the poor incentive of the population to actually get off their ass to learn economics and decide rationally
698 2011-02-07 04:16:30 <prax> not in practice
699 2011-02-07 04:16:33 <Kiba> but ya know, people like to stop everybody in their track with "democracy is the worst form of government except all others" which stop discussion
700 2011-02-07 04:16:47 <prax> the amount of rights assignment bureaucrats have expands far faster than funds for oversight
701 2011-02-07 04:16:54 <newsham> yah rich people deserve their money and poor people are lazy saps who deserve what htey get
702 2011-02-07 04:16:56 <dissipate_> a government is an entity that by definition externalizes costs, therefore it is a parasite and should be eliminated. there is nothing to keep from the fetid horror.
703 2011-02-07 04:17:01 <prax> and buraeucrats control those, big surprise there
704 2011-02-07 04:17:18 <dirtyfilthy> newsham: fucking lazy ethiopians man, rather starve to death than to an honest days labour
705 2011-02-07 04:17:29 <Kiba> is it true that all organizations like to expand their goals?
706 2011-02-07 04:17:53 <prax> that's just stupid you guys
707 2011-02-07 04:18:04 <prax> we're talking to a couple halfwits kiba
708 2011-02-07 04:18:10 <prax> later
709 2011-02-07 04:18:32 <Kiba> we're in the bitcoin channel where our goal is to make bitcoin the dominant currency at the expense of all other currency!
710 2011-02-07 04:18:38 <newsham> thank goodness all those smart peopel who came up with CDOs and then tricked moody's into misrating them got paid out for their net social benefit before that market tanked
711 2011-02-07 04:19:04 <presence> heh
712 2011-02-07 04:19:05 <dissipate_> prax, what is stupid?
713 2011-02-07 04:19:07 <newsham> otherwise we might never have known how much smarter they are than us
714 2011-02-07 04:19:33 <presence> I find it telling that the S&L crap has many of the same backers that this current mortgage situation had
715 2011-02-07 04:20:21 <newsham> and a lot of the same watchdogs..  horray for the office of thrift supervision!
716 2011-02-07 04:20:32 <presence> yeah, on both sides
717 2011-02-07 04:20:39 <dissipate_> presence, the parasitic elite will eventually drain the host and then leave. the latest crisis is just the latest episode of that process.
718 2011-02-07 04:20:40 <newsham> drexel burnham 2.0
719 2011-02-07 04:21:06 <newsham> dissipate: or keep the host barely alive to drain it yet agin ;-)
720 2011-02-07 04:21:23 <newsham> like all good religeons^h^h^h^h^h^h^hparasites
721 2011-02-07 04:21:32 <dissipate_> newsham, not really going to be possible considering the whole system is past the point of no return.
722 2011-02-07 04:21:40 <presence> there is such a thing as going too far...and that doesnt help either side
723 2011-02-07 04:21:47 <newsham> i doubt it.  i dont think its gonna go away
724 2011-02-07 04:21:49 <presence> just produces lots of bloodshed
725 2011-02-07 04:21:55 <dissipate_> newsham, they could strike again after the host recovers though
726 2011-02-07 04:22:17 <presence> "let them eat cake"
727 2011-02-07 04:22:21 <newsham> i thought you said the host is going to die
728 2011-02-07 04:22:31 <newsham> now you're saing it will recover. :)
729 2011-02-07 04:22:35 <presence> it worked perfectly for the french right up until they were beheaded
730 2011-02-07 04:22:39 <dissipate_> newsham, which makes me wonder why you want to keep the parasites around for some long lost hope of them wanting to protect you out of the goodness of their hearts.
731 2011-02-07 04:23:14 <dissipate_> newsham, well drain doesn't necessarily mean die, just resources exhausted.
732 2011-02-07 04:23:38 <newsham> let them eat high fructose corn syrup
733 2011-02-07 04:23:58 <newsham> "let them eat corn" is probably about right today
734 2011-02-07 04:24:02 <presence> except the cake wasnt killing them as they were being actively killed elsewhere :D
735 2011-02-07 04:24:11 <newsham> monsanto ftw!
736 2011-02-07 04:24:51 <dissipate_> newsham, btw, did you ever consider that using bitcoin as a payment method as a merchant could get you in trouble with the gov?
737 2011-02-07 04:24:52 <newsham> let them eat goldman's sack
738 2011-02-07 04:25:06 <newsham> dissipate: i know it could.. and i'm not a merchant.
739 2011-02-07 04:25:58 <presence> I like capitalism
740 2011-02-07 04:26:04 <dissipate_> newsham, before you said you would be willing to set up a POS
741 2011-02-07 04:26:25 <dissipate_> presence, i do too. not state capitalism though, which is really fascism.
742 2011-02-07 04:26:46 <presence> its when stuff gets skewed due to stupid shit like subsidies and reward for no work that sucks balls
743 2011-02-07 04:26:56 <newsham> dissipate; maybe someone else?  prob not me?  at least idont remember saying that
744 2011-02-07 04:27:17 <newsham> i did say i would code for btc :)
745 2011-02-07 04:27:34 <dissipate_> presence, that's not capitalism, that's plunder and shakedowns
746 2011-02-07 04:27:46 <Netsniper> no one cares
747 2011-02-07 04:28:14 <dissipate_> newsham, oops, could have gotten you mixed up with another guy. nevermind.
748 2011-02-07 04:28:21 <Netsniper> more bread & circus, plz
749 2011-02-07 04:28:43 <newsham> no worries
750 2011-02-07 04:28:56 <newsham> less guns more butter
751 2011-02-07 04:29:13 <dissipate_> Netsniper, no one cares about what?
752 2011-02-07 04:29:18 <presence> like it or not, at this moment, unless you own an island, the US still has the best thing going...for now.
753 2011-02-07 04:29:25 <Netsniper> reality
754 2011-02-07 04:29:30 <dissipate_> Netsniper, i agree
755 2011-02-07 04:29:34 <Netsniper> it's tedius and complicated
756 2011-02-07 04:29:37 <dirtyfilthy> speaking of not caring about reality, i think it's beer & joint tiem
757 2011-02-07 04:29:38 <dissipate_> most people wallow in a stupor of delusions
758 2011-02-07 04:29:38 <newsham> presence; its only a problem if bitcoin conquors its first problem -- being successful
759 2011-02-07 04:29:38 <presence> more nukes less kooks
760 2011-02-07 04:29:51 <Netsniper> external narratives given by narcissistic psychopaths trump the reality of being born, living and dying a soveriegn individual
761 2011-02-07 04:30:21 <newsham> a wise man once said "go with the flow"
762 2011-02-07 04:30:47 <newsham> i'm out.. enjoy...
763 2011-02-07 04:31:17 <dissipate_> presence, i disagree, different countries have more freedom for certain things.
764 2011-02-07 04:32:27 <presence> As long as you can remain armed, there is still hope
765 2011-02-07 04:34:14 <dissipate_> presence, also, the U.S. is a large empire. while U.S. inhabitants may be relatively 'free', the U.S. military is in hundreds of countries imposing itself on others in brutal and forceful ways.
766 2011-02-07 04:34:55 <dissipate_> Netsniper, it's all about the Constitution. right? :P
767 2011-02-07 04:34:56 <presence> Unfortunately, thats the way of things.  Before the US is was germany, france, england, japan
768 2011-02-07 04:35:23 <Netsniper> dissipate_: lysander spooner said something about that...
769 2011-02-07 04:36:01 <dissipate_> Netsniper, ever try to argue someone out of their belief in a particular narrative?
770 2011-02-07 04:36:22 <Kiba> hmm
771 2011-02-07 04:36:26 <Netsniper> why?
772 2011-02-07 04:36:37 <Kiba> The Consistution of No Treason
773 2011-02-07 04:36:48 <Kiba> he also started a mail competition to compete with the US postal service
774 2011-02-07 04:36:49 <Kiba> badass
775 2011-02-07 04:36:59 <Kiba> s/competition/company
776 2011-02-07 04:38:46 <dissipate_> Netsniper, just curious
777 2011-02-07 04:39:14 <dissipate_> Kiba, did it compete or did he start it up before the government took over? i can't remember.
778 2011-02-07 04:39:28 <Kiba> he compete but the government shut him down
779 2011-02-07 04:39:36 <Kiba> damn government lawyers
780 2011-02-07 04:39:45 <Kiba> he basically made mail cheap
781 2011-02-07 04:41:58 <Netsniper> seems inconsistent with the idea of liberty or freedom to limit a peaceful activity
782 2011-02-07 04:43:35 <dissipate_> Netsniper, that's not the popular belief, unfortunately.
783 2011-02-07 04:44:46 <Kiba> people are not consistent
784 2011-02-07 04:44:54 <Kiba> their belief system is compartmenized
785 2011-02-07 04:45:06 <Netsniper> Argumentum ad populum...
786 2011-02-07 04:45:41 <Kiba> just explaining why they didn't think so
787 2011-02-07 04:46:28 <dissipate_> Kiba, their belief system is fed to them early on through TV, school and their parents.
788 2011-02-07 04:47:03 <Kiba> dissipate_: no, they just don't think very hard
789 2011-02-07 04:47:14 <Kiba> "Ok, what is the basis of my ethical system?"
790 2011-02-07 04:47:37 <Netsniper> democracy!
791 2011-02-07 04:48:29 <Kiba> Some people's belief system will naturally be the opposite of ours
792 2011-02-07 04:48:40 <Kiba> once they think through
793 2011-02-07 04:49:14 <Kiba> but most people's beliefs are just...incohorent
794 2011-02-07 04:50:35 <dissipate_> Kiba, yep. it reminds me of white noise.
795 2011-02-07 04:50:44 <dissipate_> just a bunch of 'blah' 'blah'
796 2011-02-07 04:52:05 <presence> hopefully my gpus will show up tomorrow
797 2011-02-07 04:52:36 <presence> ups-- and snow_excuses--
798 2011-02-07 04:54:45 <Netsniper> heh "Delivery exception: SNOWPOCALYPSE!"
799 2011-02-07 04:55:05 <presence> last I checked kansas city wasnt underground
800 2011-02-07 04:55:36 <Kiba> we seem to be a bunch of ubermensch though
801 2011-02-07 04:55:54 <dirtyfilthy> ahahahaha
802 2011-02-07 04:55:55 <presence> lol
803 2011-02-07 04:55:57 <dirtyfilthy> eh
804 2011-02-07 04:55:58 <dissipate_> presence, by tomorrow they may be useless for mining if someone activates a huge mining farm that raises the difficulty to a huge number.
805 2011-02-07 04:56:05 <Kiba> ubermensch wannaba*
806 2011-02-07 04:56:44 <Kiba> let face it...which political interest have the most interest in cryptocurrency, anti-aging, seasteading, and all the technological marvels?
807 2011-02-07 04:56:46 <dissipate_> which makes me wonder how bit coin handles someone activating a huge mining operation.
808 2011-02-07 04:57:30 <dissipate_> Kiba, seasteading. international currency that is not tied to fiat and doesn't require cargo space or security like gold or silver.
809 2011-02-07 04:57:34 <presence> it cant handle it any other way that just deaking with it
810 2011-02-07 04:57:54 <presence> if its over 50% then there is possibly an issue
811 2011-02-07 05:06:12 <Kiba> hmm
812 2011-02-07 05:10:44 <dissipate_> Kiba, yes?
813 2011-02-07 05:16:51 <Syke> reading the buffer, this made me LOL. "midnightmagic_> with a chargeback, VISA fraud division kicks in and starts tracking criminals down." VISA couldn't care less about fraud. They don't lose anything.
814 2011-02-07 05:19:25 <prax> don't merchants pay for certain levels of fraud protection?
815 2011-02-07 05:19:47 <Syke> there's no such thing
816 2011-02-07 05:19:48 <prax> so I would think they would care then to some extent
817 2011-02-07 05:20:01 <prax> eh, well IDK but I was reading about this
818 2011-02-07 05:20:19 <prax> like some do certain levels of verification, ZIP code for instance
819 2011-02-07 05:20:19 <Syke> I deal with fraud every day. :(
820 2011-02-07 05:20:26 <prax> =(
821 2011-02-07 05:20:38 <prax> how is that?
822 2011-02-07 05:20:58 <prax> but yeah I see why you mean they dont care because the merchant gets the loss of money, loss of items, chargeback fee, etc
823 2011-02-07 05:21:01 <echelon> does anyone have enough btc's in their balance to order a hit?
824 2011-02-07 05:21:04 <Syke> any fraud is paid by the merchants
825 2011-02-07 05:21:28 <prax> do you know about high risk CC processors?
826 2011-02-07 05:21:52 <Syke> to me they all are. what about it?
827 2011-02-07 05:22:08 <prax> just trying to get some idea what they typically charge
828 2011-02-07 05:22:47 <Syke> I've never found one that will take responsibility for fraud. it's always on the merchant
829 2011-02-07 05:22:59 <prax> trying to find a way to offer bitcoin as an alternative to biz who are forced to use HR CC processors
830 2011-02-07 05:23:09 <prax> i know that
831 2011-02-07 05:23:29 <prax> I mean the ones who take merchants for more "questionable" things like porn, casinos, etc
832 2011-02-07 05:38:16 <midnightmagic_> Syke: it doesn't matter whether they lose anything (even though they do.)
833 2011-02-07 05:39:11 <Syke> VISA does not take fraud seriously.
834 2011-02-07 05:39:17 <midnightmagic_> Syke: the fraud divisions exist, and they work to track down criminals and prosecute them.
835 2011-02-07 05:39:48 <midnightmagic_> there's a whole bunch of buildings full of people in their fraud divisions who might disagree with you.
836 2011-02-07 05:40:20 <Syke> they're all busy charging the merchants for the fraud
837 2011-02-07 05:41:30 <midnightmagic_> you mean merchants who didn't get a signature, took the numbers of smartcards without using the smartcard PIN, didn't check ID, and generally don't treat fraud seriously themselves?
838 2011-02-07 05:42:05 <Syke> yeah, like an internet based merchant that can't get a signature, etc.
839 2011-02-07 05:42:12 <afed> laff
840 2011-02-07 05:42:14 <midnightmagic_> .. perhaps, accepted a card without a signature on it, didn't reconcile at the end of the day the way they should have, or otherwise took a visa number online without using the verified-by routines?
841 2011-02-07 05:42:23 <afed> they simply can't fix fraud
842 2011-02-07 05:42:32 <afed> the way the payment card system is set up
843 2011-02-07 05:42:43 <afed> it's cheaper to have a slush fund to pay victims out of
844 2011-02-07 05:43:03 <afed> i'm not even sure anything is wrong with that approach
845 2011-02-07 05:43:14 <midnightmagic_> oh, I see. you're talking about online merchants who'll do anything to accept online credit cards and then whine about the risks they willingly agreed to when they signed their merchants' agreements?
846 2011-02-07 05:43:31 <afed> if they chose security instead of paying victims off, the cost of the security would still be passed on to the merchants and customers
847 2011-02-07 05:43:33 <Syke> ah, the merchant agreement. yup
848 2011-02-07 05:43:44 <Syke> like I said, it's the merchant that takes all the risk
849 2011-02-07 05:44:44 <Syke> name one major online merchant that does a human phone call based address verification and only ships to billing address.
850 2011-02-07 05:45:47 <Syke> Visa has no automated way to verify full billing addresses.
851 2011-02-07 05:46:16 <Syke> It take a minimum of two phone calls to track down the bank of the issuing card to do an address verification over the phone.
852 2011-02-07 05:46:47 <midnightmagic_> i'm failing to see here how this shows VISA doesn't take fraud seriously. it's sounding a lot like you think high-risk retailers who should know better should shoulder less of the burden than brick-and-mortar.
853 2011-02-07 05:47:16 <Syke> Visa offers no better way to reduce fraud.
854 2011-02-07 05:47:25 <midnightmagic_> having come from brick-and-mortar, there's no way in hell I would ever have taken cards sight unseen, no signature, no security checks.
855 2011-02-07 05:47:52 <midnightmagic_> besides that, VISA doesn't just plain old do pure chargebacks at the drop of a hat.
856 2011-02-07 05:48:22 <Syke> sure they do. they're usually valid chargebacks due to stolen credit cards.
857 2011-02-07 05:49:37 <Syke> but since visa doesn't offer a reliable method to verify addresses, no, they don't take it seriously
858 2011-02-07 05:59:04 <testing1234> Bitcoin is the new curreny at Pala casino.
859 2011-02-07 05:59:08 <testing1234> Just kidding.
860 2011-02-07 05:59:26 <testing1234> ...but that would be cool!
861 2011-02-07 05:59:34 <testing1234> Anyone for tennis?
862 2011-02-07 07:53:10 <Necr0s> Suppose I "lose my wallet", and have no backup.  Are any coins in it lost and gone forever?
863 2011-02-07 08:01:03 <Syke> Necr0s, yes, if you lose your wallet the coins are lost forever.
864 2011-02-07 08:14:24 <da2ce7> anyone good at silver stripe cms?
865 2011-02-07 09:24:26 <necrodearia> More feedback wanted at http://meta.witcoin.com/p/56/user-generated-categories
866 2011-02-07 09:25:31 <necrodearia> Although, the feedback doesn't need to take place at the site, but regarding the content
867 2011-02-07 09:26:21 <necrodearia> For a user-generated content site that allows users to establish their own categories, what seems like a reasonable or acceptable implementation that is fair for all users and not just ones that satisfy first-come-first-serve?
868 2011-02-07 09:28:38 <noagendamarket> an auction system
869 2011-02-07 09:29:47 <noagendamarket> ie let market demand sort things out
870 2011-02-07 09:29:53 <dereckson> Good morning
871 2011-02-07 09:30:06 <noagendamarket> morning
872 2011-02-07 09:31:37 <dereckson> According http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=151222 wxWidgets 2.9 will soon be in the FreeBSD ports tree, so I then will be able to prepare a FreeBSD port (local name for packages).
873 2011-02-07 09:33:46 <dereckson> I wondered if this patch - http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=379.0 - have been applied to the main Makefile or is still required nowadays.
874 2011-02-07 11:11:20 <andrew12> (pedxing) it takes twenty-five muscles to frown, and only twelve to punch some wiseass in the mouth.
875 2011-02-07 11:12:12 <afed> ;;bc,stats
876 2011-02-07 11:12:13 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106699 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 148 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 20 hours, 23 minutes, and 28 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25587.43273836
877 2011-02-07 12:06:44 <CIA-98> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn master * rd2e2cb0 / net.cpp :
878 2011-02-07 12:11:00 <tcatm> mhm. Isn't github supposed to close the pull request on merge?
879 2011-02-07 12:27:24 <molecular> noagendamarket, why did you give me 2 witcoins?
880 2011-02-07 13:01:02 <afed> ;;bc,stats
881 2011-02-07 13:01:04 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106714 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 133 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 18 hours, 12 minutes, and 49 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25632.17589028
882 2011-02-07 13:01:25 <afed> everyone turn off their GPUs please
883 2011-02-07 13:01:48 <xelister> what is current diff increase speed?
884 2011-02-07 13:01:52 <xelister> x1.10 each 1 week?
885 2011-02-07 13:01:59 <tcatm> afed: sure, just pay me 2500 BTC
886 2011-02-07 13:02:17 <afed> tcatm: you'll earn more than 2500 BTC when the difficulty adjusts downward
887 2011-02-07 13:02:22 <xelister> or, what you estimate the  weekly-diff-increase in upcoming 2 months, +10% each week?
888 2011-02-07 13:03:45 <afed> my GPU shipment can't come fast enough :(
889 2011-02-07 13:04:09 <xelister> afed: you can use my miner too =)
890 2011-02-07 13:04:33 <afed> lol who's that guy contracting mining capacity
891 2011-02-07 13:04:48 <afed> wonder how he builds out
892 2011-02-07 13:05:00 <xelister> me?
893 2011-02-07 13:05:06 <afed> presumably he has to scrounge ebay for more 5970 cards and build more nodes whenever he signs a new contract
894 2011-02-07 13:06:04 <afed> are you vladmir?
895 2011-02-07 13:06:31 <xelister> no. are you?
896 2011-02-07 13:06:40 <afed> no
897 2011-02-07 13:06:40 <xelister> =)
898 2011-02-07 13:06:48 <cosurgi> I'm not either.
899 2011-02-07 13:06:54 <xelister> so you woulc be interested in ordering such cluster?
900 2011-02-07 13:07:15 <xelister> for 2 weeks or more
901 2011-02-07 13:07:26 <afed> need to run some numbers
902 2011-02-07 13:07:38 <afed> half the fun is building the hardware yourself though
903 2011-02-07 13:08:04 <afed> all i ever planned to do was have some fun and if i came out ahead after selling the hardware, i'd consider it a bonus
904 2011-02-07 13:08:17 <afed> i'm not going to contract with someone else to do the fun part for me
905 2011-02-07 13:08:27 <afed> and be left with the risk of currency speculating
906 2011-02-07 13:35:58 <luke-jr> actually
907 2011-02-07 13:36:05 <luke-jr> what happens if all the miners sandbox?
908 2011-02-07 13:36:37 <luke-jr> A. we just get the next 20x0 blocks fast and difficulty soars ;P
909 2011-02-07 13:40:44 <afed> what's the difficulty on the test network?
910 2011-02-07 13:40:59 <afed> might be fun to mint a few hundred thousand tBTC
911 2011-02-07 13:41:11 <slush> around 340
912 2011-02-07 13:41:51 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 265000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 340, is 1 hour, 31 minutes, and 50 seconds
913 2011-02-07 13:41:51 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 265000 340
914 2011-02-07 13:42:10 <slush> good luck :)
915 2011-02-07 13:42:16 <luke-jr> meh, don't have that much time -.-
916 2011-02-07 13:42:17 <afed> ;;bc,calcd 1000000 340
917 2011-02-07 13:42:17 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 340, is 24 minutes and 20 seconds
918 2011-02-07 13:42:24 <afed> meh
919 2011-02-07 13:42:39 <luke-jr> 18 hours till next difficulty and still no block
920 2011-02-07 13:42:40 <afed> don't feel like taking them out of production
921 2011-02-07 13:42:43 <slush> oh, real difficulty is 186
922 2011-02-07 13:42:45 <luke-jr> I need to spend every second mining for real
923 2011-02-07 13:42:57 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 265000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 186, is 50 minutes and 14 seconds
924 2011-02-07 13:42:57 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 265000 186
925 2011-02-07 13:43:33 <afed> dear slush, i don't know how agressively you are profiling people's behavior for possible cheating
926 2011-02-07 13:43:43 <slush> what?
927 2011-02-07 13:43:46 <luke-jr> afed: cheating is impossible
928 2011-02-07 13:43:49 <afed> but i use my desktop box to mine only when i am not using it or asleep
929 2011-02-07 13:43:54 <afed> so i turn the miners on and off
930 2011-02-07 13:44:08 <slush> dear afed, I didn't banned you
931 2011-02-07 13:44:24 <dereckson> Maybe it's a matter of definition. What do you mean by "cheating" afed?
932 2011-02-07 13:44:37 <afed> thx, i just wanted to make sure it didn't look like i was up to no good, stopping and starting some miners routinely
933 2011-02-07 13:44:45 <luke-jr> dereckson: acceptable cheats are already *implemented* :p
934 2011-02-07 13:45:27 <luke-jr> I have had 3 ideas for possible "cheats" so far
935 2011-02-07 13:45:35 <luke-jr> 1 was inherently impossible
936 2011-02-07 13:45:39 <luke-jr> 1 was implemented
937 2011-02-07 13:45:46 <luke-jr> 1 was checked/prevented
938 2011-02-07 13:46:51 <EvanR-work> ;;bc,stats
939 2011-02-07 13:46:52 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106725 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 122 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 16 hours, 42 minutes, and 26 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25687.51875022
940 2011-02-07 13:47:00 <slush> luke-jr: second one is what?