1 2011-02-13 00:00:23 <sipa> if it gained you something
  2 2011-02-13 00:00:46 <RichardG> nevermind, I was using my old PC's worker account, which obviously failed
  3 2011-02-13 00:02:39 <molecular> sipa, ok, so the second abuse is like the pool switching strategy slush was (maybe) suffering from a week ago?
  4 2011-02-13 00:02:59 <sipa> not exactly the same
  5 2011-02-13 00:03:24 <sipa> unfortunately, yes
  6 2011-02-13 00:03:31 <[Noodles]> suffering from?
  7 2011-02-13 00:03:34 <[Noodles]> was it?
  8 2011-02-13 00:03:37 <sipa> no
  9 2011-02-13 00:03:43 <molecular> sipa, so the bandwidth is O(n) :(
 10 2011-02-13 00:03:56 <sipa> molecular: there is an improvement
 11 2011-02-13 00:04:03 <molecular> I'd like to hear
 12 2011-02-13 00:04:13 <sipa> let miners decide for themselves which difficulty they mine at
 13 2011-02-13 00:04:25 <sipa> (before they start mining)
 14 2011-02-13 00:04:57 <sipa> and count a difficulty-N block as N difficulty-1 blocks
 15 2011-02-13 00:05:07 <molecular> ok, and on receiving-end, take that difficulty in account when calculating what I owe this guy
 16 2011-02-13 00:05:13 <sipa> indeed
 17 2011-02-13 00:05:22 <molecular> but then you need to put that "decided-on difficulty" in the block data
 18 2011-02-13 00:05:28 <sipa> yes
 19 2011-02-13 00:05:32 <molecular> cant use the block hash for that
 20 2011-02-13 00:05:34 <sipa> you can
 21 2011-02-13 00:05:43 <molecular> ok, cool
 22 2011-02-13 00:05:45 <molecular> this can work
 23 2011-02-13 00:05:46 <sipa> if you put it somehow encoded in the coinbase
 24 2011-02-13 00:05:51 <molecular> but it's still O(n)-ish ;|
 25 2011-02-13 00:05:55 <sipa> yup
 26 2011-02-13 00:06:07 <molecular> actually it's just fiddling with a constant
 27 2011-02-13 00:06:23 <molecular> it still can work quite well if pool doesn't get too large...
 28 2011-02-13 00:06:39 <molecular> maybe we can stuff a "layer in the middle" and make sort of a meta-pool of smaller pools
 29 2011-02-13 00:06:46 <RichardG> pentium dual core e5700, 4gb ram, 7 x64 - getting 1250-1375 khashes with cryptopp_asm32
 30 2011-02-13 00:06:57 <sipa> O(n^2) bandwidth through the whole network for N pool miners
 31 2011-02-13 00:07:10 <molecular> you're right
 32 2011-02-13 00:07:25 <molecular> was faultily taking the perspective of just "one node"
 33 2011-02-13 00:08:29 <molecular> individuals could put "trust" in some intermediaries that receive/redistribute to a sub-cluster of the nodes
 34 2011-02-13 00:08:42 <molecular> sipa, did you make calculations concerning the bandwidth?
 35 2011-02-13 00:09:02 <ntosme2> RichardG: I'm getting 2400 with 2 threads, cpuminer, c/kernel alg
 36 2011-02-13 00:09:09 <jgarzik> cpuminer version 0.7 released
 37 2011-02-13 00:09:15 <jgarzik> all pool users strongly urged to upgrade
 38 2011-02-13 00:09:27 <molecular> jgarzik, what did you do?
 39 2011-02-13 00:09:46 <jgarzik> molecular: persistent HTTP connections and DNS caching
 40 2011-02-13 00:10:06 <jgarzik> should lower slush's server usage, _and_ speed up 'getwork' turnaround time.
 41 2011-02-13 00:10:13 <jgarzik> win-win
 42 2011-02-13 00:10:29 <molecular> jgarzik, sounds good
 43 2011-02-13 00:10:44 <molecular> what happened to slush's push model?
 44 2011-02-13 00:11:06 <jgarzik> hopefully that will become the official protocol
 45 2011-02-13 00:11:11 <jgarzik> but until then...
 46 2011-02-13 00:11:11 <RichardG> ntosme2: getting 1100-1200 on c
 47 2011-02-13 00:11:16 <RichardG> asm32 is best for me
 48 2011-02-13 00:11:34 <Diablo-D3> I hope it never becomes the official protocol
 49 2011-02-13 00:12:12 <sipa> molecular: not really
 50 2011-02-13 00:12:20 <ntosme2> RichardG: asm32 was about 1.6% slower here
 51 2011-02-13 00:12:26 <molecular> sipa, well. I really like your idea
 52 2011-02-13 00:12:34 <sipa> it just took a lot of brainstorming with someone here who seems to have left
 53 2011-02-13 00:12:44 <sipa> and i fear i have no time for implementing it :)
 54 2011-02-13 00:12:49 <molecular> who was that?
 55 2011-02-13 00:13:05 <sipa> marioxcc i believe was his nick
 56 2011-02-13 00:13:47 <molecular> sound like a cc-coder ;) maybe he has the resources...
 57 2011-02-13 00:14:01 <Diablo-D3> huh
 58 2011-02-13 00:14:07 <Diablo-D3> slush requires forced donations?
 59 2011-02-13 00:14:10 <molecular> I could definitely help, but am not into bitcoin-code very deeply
 60 2011-02-13 00:14:22 <molecular> Diablo-D3, interesting reaction
 61 2011-02-13 00:14:37 <sipa> and very understandable one
 62 2011-02-13 00:14:39 <molecular> yeah
 63 2011-02-13 00:14:44 <Diablo-D3> it was 6%.
 64 2011-02-13 00:14:50 <sipa> the moment it becomes forced, it's a payment, not a donation
 65 2011-02-13 00:14:59 <sipa> though i fully understand slush
 66 2011-02-13 00:15:28 <molecular> people say, slush's gone "commercial"... well, he says it's a reaction to the slashdotting and he's on vacation and he's doing it only temporarily
 67 2011-02-13 00:15:38 <sipa> uhu
 68 2011-02-13 00:15:48 <ntosme2> at 2% that's about $30/day
 69 2011-02-13 00:15:54 <[Noodles]> calling fees "required donations" is just silly
 70 2011-02-13 00:15:57 <sipa> i wonder what other solution he will come up with
 71 2011-02-13 00:15:59 <molecular> yeah, I don't think it's a bad move
 72 2011-02-13 00:16:08 <molecular> he's just not making enough to finance the bandwidth
 73 2011-02-13 00:16:28 <[Noodles]> that's another story, of course a server has to be paid for
 74 2011-02-13 00:16:45 <molecular> (read the link right to the donation <select/>)
 75 2011-02-13 00:16:52 <sipa> molecular: anyway, there are other problems as well, such as observability... essentially every node will be measuring the speed and "coor
 76 2011-02-13 00:17:05 <sipa> molecular: anyway, there are other problems as well, such as observability... essentially every node will be measuring the speed and "cooperability" of (at least some) other nodes
 77 2011-02-13 00:17:16 <sipa> with everyone having a different notion about it
 78 2011-02-13 00:17:37 <sipa> so i think it'll be a hell to debug, and if not, to have it gain trust
 79 2011-02-13 00:18:38 <sipa> anyway
 80 2011-02-13 00:19:38 <joe_1> if slush were smart he wouldn't charge any fee, but he would take every 10th block for himself. that way, nobody would know.
 81 2011-02-13 00:19:59 <jgarzik> I think slush is doing a fantastic job
 82 2011-02-13 00:21:54 <RichardG> wait, stupid idea
 83 2011-02-13 00:27:36 <luke-jr> &why?
 84 2011-02-13 00:27:43 <luke-jr> that is *so* mining at a loss
 85 2011-02-13 00:28:25 <jgarzik> lol
 86 2011-02-13 00:28:28 <[Noodles]> like....folding at a loss?
 87 2011-02-13 00:29:41 <noagendamarket> jgarzik do it man lol
 88 2011-02-13 00:29:58 <[Noodles]> i'd join, just for the fun
 89 2011-02-13 00:29:59 <noagendamarket> lest discriminate against gpu's for once :)
 90 2011-02-13 00:30:08 <jgarzik> open a pool for hardware built pre-year-2000
 91 2011-02-13 00:30:12 <noagendamarket> hahaha
 92 2011-02-13 00:30:18 <noagendamarket> atari 2600 pool
 93 2011-02-13 00:30:24 <noagendamarket> ftw
 94 2011-02-13 00:30:33 <jgarzik> I bet you could do that with a simulator :)
 95 2011-02-13 00:30:41 <noagendamarket> hey I bet I could
 96 2011-02-13 00:31:35 <jgarzik> seeing sha256 on TRS-80 Color Computer (BASIC language) would be... interesting
 97 2011-02-13 00:32:04 <RichardG> makes me remember of xelister
 98 2011-02-13 00:32:11 <Mr_Coin> i'm getting about 0.1 hash/sec
 99 2011-02-13 00:32:12 <RichardG> and his "CPU miners' fund"
100 2011-02-13 00:32:26 <RichardG> i need to renew my membership in it...
101 2011-02-13 00:32:34 <RichardG> got a new PC, unfortunately Intel IGP
102 2011-02-13 00:34:16 <jgarzik> tcatm: you need to merge cpuminer commit c0935a94899bc7261bc98b17a52d7c11b005fde4 into your oclminer.  calling curl_easy_init() in json_rpc_call() eliminates possibility of caching DNS and HTTP connections.
103 2011-02-13 00:36:21 <donpdonp> lmao at Atari 2600 pool
104 2011-02-13 00:37:51 <luke-jr> jgarzik: how would you validate whether it was a CPU only, or GPU?
105 2011-02-13 00:38:08 <luke-jr> RichardG: unfortunately?
106 2011-02-13 00:38:14 <jgarzik> luke-jr: a good question :)
107 2011-02-13 00:38:25 <luke-jr> RichardG: that's basically ideal for mining-- just add a Radeon and pretend it isn't there ;)
108 2011-02-13 00:38:30 <jgarzik> observed rate per HTTP connection is one
109 2011-02-13 00:38:43 <luke-jr> jgarzik: keep in mind that my CPU is faster than some nvidia GPUs
110 2011-02-13 00:39:26 <jgarzik> luke-jr: CPU == a single core?
111 2011-02-13 00:39:30 <jgarzik> single thread?
112 2011-02-13 00:39:34 <luke-jr> jgarzik: 5 threads
113 2011-02-13 00:39:43 <jgarzik> that's 5 HTTP connections
114 2011-02-13 00:39:54 <luke-jr> 4 cores, plus an extra to handle while the others are fetching more work
115 2011-02-13 00:40:19 <luke-jr> I see.
116 2011-02-13 00:40:30 <luke-jr> so a single HTTP connection beating 3 MH/s = GPU ?
117 2011-02-13 00:40:37 <genjix> sup
118 2011-02-13 00:42:20 <genjix> nokia has partnered with microsoft and is dropping symbian...
119 2011-02-13 00:42:24 <genjix> what does this mean for Qt???
120 2011-02-13 00:42:34 <genjix> ogodpleaseno
121 2011-02-13 00:42:51 <luke-jr> genjix: joking?
122 2011-02-13 00:42:56 <genjix> no
123 2011-02-13 00:43:06 <noagendamarket> If you connect with under 5000 khash most likely you have a cpu ? lol
124 2011-02-13 00:43:21 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: some nvidia GPUs are <5000
125 2011-02-13 00:43:43 <genjix> http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/02/12/0028257/After-MS-Nokia-Pact-Many-Nokia-Workers-Walk-Out-In-Protest#comments
126 2011-02-13 00:44:04 <noagendamarket> thats what i mean luke...limit the pool to a maximum khash rate
127 2011-02-13 00:44:28 <noagendamarket> or something....
128 2011-02-13 00:44:53 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: I'm saying why that can't work.
129 2011-02-13 00:45:05 <jgarzik> <gribble> BCM|  CONF TRD|PPUSD                   100 @ $1.2550
130 2011-02-13 00:45:08 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: if you want to keep out nvidia GPUs, you need to set the limit to like 2500 kH/s
131 2011-02-13 00:45:09 <jgarzik> wow, the PayPal premium
132 2011-02-13 00:45:12 <luke-jr> but then that keeps my CPU out too
133 2011-02-13 00:45:17 <comboy> Diablo-D3: I'm curious what you think is wrong with the thing that jgarzik said he wrote, can you share?
134 2011-02-13 00:45:29 <noagendamarket> luke maybe it a noob pool lol
135 2011-02-13 00:46:23 <luke-jr> if you use simply max kH/s, it should be called "pool for those mining at a loss"
136 2011-02-13 00:46:47 <genjix> microsoft is going to slaughter qt if they get their hands on it...
137 2011-02-13 00:47:16 <ntosme2> by my calcs, an ATI 5970 will generate $17.26/day
138 2011-02-13 00:47:48 <[Noodles]> i don't your "at a loss"-problem, people ar folding and seti at a loss all the time, for years and noone cares
139 2011-02-13 00:48:01 <luke-jr> ntosme2: not CPUs
140 2011-02-13 00:48:18 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: well, I guess idiots will always exist :P
141 2011-02-13 00:48:26 <luke-jr> but AFAIK the folding stuff has a practical use?
142 2011-02-13 00:48:33 <genjix> yes it does
143 2011-02-13 00:48:34 <ntosme2> luke-jr: what's your point? that's a GPU
144 2011-02-13 00:48:39 <genjix> so why does that make them idiots?
145 2011-02-13 00:48:45 <genjix> they want to help people
146 2011-02-13 00:48:51 <luke-jr> ntosme2: so we're talking about CPU-only pool
147 2011-02-13 00:48:57 <luke-jr> genjix: mining at a loss helps nobody
148 2011-02-13 00:48:58 <genjix> they are heroes if anything
149 2011-02-13 00:49:01 <luke-jr> SETI helps nobody
150 2011-02-13 00:49:15 <[Noodles]> mining at a loss helps the network
151 2011-02-13 00:49:20 <[Noodles]> it secures your coins#
152 2011-02-13 00:49:23 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: oh?
153 2011-02-13 00:49:24 <genjix> SETI is science
154 2011-02-13 00:49:42 <luke-jr> SETI is a waste of time and CPU power, nothing more
155 2011-02-13 00:49:44 <genjix> how long does a gpu take to generate a block?
156 2011-02-13 00:49:50 <luke-jr> genjix: depends on the GPU
157 2011-02-13 00:50:03 <genjix> that's unproductive to rubbish people's work
158 2011-02-13 00:50:11 <genjix> im sure people call bitcoin the same.
159 2011-02-13 00:50:30 <luke-jr> honestly, bitcoin's mining is a flaw.
160 2011-02-13 00:50:37 <luke-jr> doesn't invalidate the whole system thankfully
161 2011-02-13 00:51:05 <genjix> doesn't it annoy you when people rubbish tonal number system?
162 2011-02-13 00:51:15 <genjix> that's the same with calling SETI a waste of time
163 2011-02-13 00:51:30 <luke-jr> except that SETI has no potential benefits, IMO
164 2011-02-13 00:51:36 <genjix> many talented scientists sacrifice their career because the believe in it.
165 2011-02-13 00:52:07 <[Noodles]> it doesnt matter if people are mining at a loss, or in profit, important is, that mining is done
166 2011-02-13 00:52:10 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: do you have substantive criticisms of a more network-efficient, constantly connected binary mining protocol?
167 2011-02-13 00:52:16 <genjix> luke-jr: this is a movie about SETI, and you are the guys in suits (2 mins), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sds7hTlaNaM
168 2011-02-13 00:52:32 <luke-jr> genjix: ok
169 2011-02-13 00:52:38 <luke-jr> I don't use Flash.
170 2011-02-13 00:52:47 <genjix> use html5 then
171 2011-02-13 00:52:59 <luke-jr> YouTube dropped HTML5 support IIRC
172 2011-02-13 00:53:00 <genjix> http://www.youtube.com/html5
173 2011-02-13 00:53:16 <echelon> i would mine if the client had better frequency scaling
174 2011-02-13 00:53:20 <Mr_Coin> they did not drop html5 support
175 2011-02-13 00:53:38 <luke-jr> cool
176 2011-02-13 00:54:28 <luke-jr> but it's fiction
177 2011-02-13 00:54:34 <luke-jr> gotta remember that
178 2011-02-13 00:54:40 <echelon> youtube limits the number of html5-supported videos because they haven't figured out a way to force ads on them
179 2011-02-13 00:55:08 <genjix> all i can say is watch the video
180 2011-02-13 00:55:19 <luke-jr> FICTION.
181 2011-02-13 00:55:44 <Mr_Coin> i guess that's not the point
182 2011-02-13 00:57:25 <genjix> the film was written by Carl Sagan... one of the best astronomers ever. designed the pioneer plaque, mars landings, Cosmos .etc
183 2011-02-13 00:57:51 <genjix> you remind me of people who say Linux will never work, or the internet, or aeroplanes, ...
184 2011-02-13 00:58:17 <afed> heh
185 2011-02-13 00:58:18 <Mr_Coin> yeah
186 2011-02-13 00:58:31 <luke-jr> genjix: correct me if I'm wrong, but SETI has no purpose other than finding extraterrertials, right?
187 2011-02-13 00:58:54 <genjix> so why are you here participating in a virtual currency controlled by the people, and promoting a base 16 number system from the 1900's?
188 2011-02-13 00:59:08 <luke-jr> and since I am fairly confident there are no extraterrestial physical creatures, it is therefore a complete waste of time/power
189 2011-02-13 00:59:15 <Mr_Coin> lol
190 2011-02-13 00:59:23 <Kiba> in other words, we are alone
191 2011-02-13 00:59:27 <luke-jr> genjix: Tonal is from the 1800s
192 2011-02-13 00:59:38 <Mr_Coin> it is highly unlikely that we are alone
193 2011-02-13 00:59:59 <genjix> 100 billion galaxies each with 100 billion stars
194 2011-02-13 01:00:05 <Mr_Coin> yeah
195 2011-02-13 01:00:21 <luke-jr> then why did it just so happen that God chose Earth and became man?
196 2011-02-13 01:00:36 <Kiba> luke-jr: but we don't believe in god!
197 2011-02-13 01:00:39 <Mr_Coin> there is no god, except in your head maybe
198 2011-02-13 01:00:42 <luke-jr> Kiba: that's YOUR problem
199 2011-02-13 01:00:51 <Kiba> :P
200 2011-02-13 01:00:58 <luke-jr> see, this nonsense presumes the denial of God
201 2011-02-13 01:01:09 <Mr_Coin> it has nothing to do with god actually
202 2011-02-13 01:01:30 <Mr_Coin> it is just math
203 2011-02-13 01:02:32 <[Noodles]> however its also highly unlikely that some et.creatures try to contact us, even if, it would take hubndreds or thousands of years to even send a message
204 2011-02-13 01:02:53 <Mr_Coin> [Noodles], true, chances for that to happen are very small
205 2011-02-13 01:03:14 <[Noodles]> so, imo SETI is a waste of time and energy, but who am i to judge people that do it
206 2011-02-13 01:03:44 <genjix> better than shooting brown people
207 2011-02-13 01:03:49 <[Noodles]> lol
208 2011-02-13 01:03:51 <Mr_Coin> but maybe they haven't even been trying to contact us, but send messages for other reasons that we might be able to receive
209 2011-02-13 01:04:09 <[Noodles]> maybe god exists
210 2011-02-13 01:04:24 <Mr_Coin> well that really is HIGHLY unlikely
211 2011-02-13 01:04:29 <[Noodles]> i dont think so, but i might be wrong
212 2011-02-13 01:05:13 <Mr_Coin> but there is certain people that need something like a "god"
213 2011-02-13 01:05:29 <[Noodles]> sure, let them be
214 2011-02-13 01:05:33 <luke-jr> God exists, no matter the reason you might have to deny Him
215 2011-02-13 01:05:43 <Mr_Coin> like luke-jr
216 2011-02-13 01:05:50 <Mr_Coin> and i don't care
217 2011-02-13 01:05:59 <[Noodles]> its not reasons i have to deny, it's reasons i don't have to believe
218 2011-02-13 01:06:07 <Mr_Coin> but i don't argue with those people either, as it is useless
219 2011-02-13 01:06:17 <luke-jr> Mr_Coin: need or not, I believe in God because His existence is solidly proven.
220 2011-02-13 01:06:30 <[Noodles]> by what?
221 2011-02-13 01:06:38 <luke-jr> logic, at least
222 2011-02-13 01:06:42 <luke-jr> probably other fields of science, too
223 2011-02-13 01:06:44 <Mr_Coin> luke-jr, you are free to believe anything, but nothing has been proven
224 2011-02-13 01:07:08 <[Noodles]> show me evidence
225 2011-02-13 01:07:13 <Mr_Coin> haha, yeah
226 2011-02-13 01:07:16 <joe_1> bitcoin to western union?
227 2011-02-13 01:07:18 <[Noodles]> havent seen any in my lifetime
228 2011-02-13 01:07:19 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: you can find various proofs with Google
229 2011-02-13 01:07:32 <[Noodles]> i can find all kinds of stuff with google
230 2011-02-13 01:07:37 <Mr_Coin> well, as i said, it is useless to argue about that crap
231 2011-02-13 01:07:38 <genjix> historians discovered a forum post by jesus
232 2011-02-13 01:07:43 <[Noodles]> dont have to believe it
233 2011-02-13 01:07:46 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: study logic then and prove it yourself
234 2011-02-13 01:07:52 <[Noodles]> i did
235 2011-02-13 01:07:57 <[Noodles]> that's why i dont believe
236 2011-02-13 01:08:11 <[Noodles]> or DO believe that "he" doesnt exist
237 2011-02-13 01:08:14 <luke-jr> obviously not, since what you just said is completely illogical
238 2011-02-13 01:08:20 <Mr_Coin> lol
239 2011-02-13 01:08:43 <luke-jr> if you proved His existence to yourself, it makes no sense to believe He doesn't exist.
240 2011-02-13 01:09:10 <[Noodles]> i did study logic, i didnt prove his existence
241 2011-02-13 01:09:23 <Mr_Coin> you obviously need some kind of god. but that does not mean a "god" exists
242 2011-02-13 01:09:49 <[Noodles]> believe whatever you want, i wont blame you
243 2011-02-13 01:09:59 <Mr_Coin> yeah
244 2011-02-13 01:10:00 <genjix> if god screams in a forest, ...
245 2011-02-13 01:10:07 <genjix> QED
246 2011-02-13 01:10:07 <[Noodles]> but dont say "its proven" when its not
247 2011-02-13 01:10:20 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: it is proven.
248 2011-02-13 01:10:25 <[Noodles]> by what?
249 2011-02-13 01:10:32 <luke-jr> your ignorance, willful or not, is irrelevant to that fact
250 2011-02-13 01:10:33 <genjix> mathematics
251 2011-02-13 01:10:47 <[Noodles]> theres so many relkigions with so many gods, which one is the proven one?
252 2011-02-13 01:10:48 <genjix> there is a proof for the decibels of gods voice
253 2011-02-13 01:10:53 <luke-jr> genjix: I would be interested in a mathematical proof.
254 2011-02-13 01:10:55 <Mr_Coin> lol, even the most religious people usually do not claim that god's existence has been proven
255 2011-02-13 01:11:10 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: I was referring merely to His existence. Not any attributes or such
256 2011-02-13 01:11:44 <luke-jr> while various attributes *can* be proven, their proofs tend to be more complicated.
257 2011-02-13 01:11:56 <noagendamarket> God gave me a dick so he wants me to use it.
258 2011-02-13 01:12:01 <noagendamarket> lol
259 2011-02-13 01:12:17 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: correct, to be fruitful and multiply.
260 2011-02-13 01:12:17 <Mr_Coin> show us proof about its existence or stop claiming that is has been proven
261 2011-02-13 01:12:18 <Mr_Coin> EOD
262 2011-02-13 01:12:23 <noagendamarket> He also wants me to smoke copious amounts of drugs
263 2011-02-13 01:12:28 <luke-jr> Mr_Coin: I won't Google for you.
264 2011-02-13 01:12:41 <noagendamarket> so that I see god while hallucinating
265 2011-02-13 01:12:43 <Mr_Coin> luke-jr, i don't want you to google
266 2011-02-13 01:12:43 <[Noodles]> goggle lies
267 2011-02-13 01:12:44 <noagendamarket> lol
268 2011-02-13 01:12:50 <[Noodles]> google too
269 2011-02-13 01:13:11 <luke-jr> Google can find verifiable logical proofs of God's existence.
270 2011-02-13 01:13:14 <[Noodles]> google also says, ET has already been here!!
271 2011-02-13 01:13:18 <Mr_Coin> either show us some proof or stop claiming such a crap
272 2011-02-13 01:13:20 <[Noodles]> proven fact
273 2011-02-13 01:13:25 <[Noodles]> google it
274 2011-02-13 01:13:27 <genjix> proof: the face of jesus was discovered smiling in the wrinkles of a woman's back
275 2011-02-13 01:13:34 <Mr_Coin> hehe true, [Noodles]
276 2011-02-13 01:14:13 <genjix> [Noodles]: i think you'll find definitive proof in the forum posts of jesus
277 2011-02-13 01:14:27 <[Noodles]> he posted on our forum?
278 2011-02-13 01:14:29 <genjix> and it's not fake because the words are beyond anything a mortal could type
279 2011-02-13 01:14:30 <[Noodles]> cool
280 2011-02-13 01:14:45 <genjix> yeah he bitcoin was blessed
281 2011-02-13 01:15:09 <genjix> and for our efforts he would send us christians as a reward
282 2011-02-13 01:15:25 <genjix> and boys
283 2011-02-13 01:15:52 <Mr_Coin> haha
284 2011-02-13 01:16:40 <genjix> proof: if god screams in a forest, ...
285 2011-02-13 01:16:43 <genjix> QED
286 2011-02-13 01:16:53 <genjix> christians: 2 atheists: 0
287 2011-02-13 01:17:00 <Mr_Coin> ;)
288 2011-02-13 01:18:53 <genjix> wouldn't it be lovely if instead of scumbag politicians and lawyers, we had respectable priests and honest popes serving the law
289 2011-02-13 01:19:17 <newsham> hilarity
290 2011-02-13 01:19:25 <noagendamarket> heh
291 2011-02-13 01:19:37 <noagendamarket> it was called the spanish inquisition
292 2011-02-13 01:19:40 <ntosme2> yes, but no
293 2011-02-13 01:19:49 <newsham> six of one half a dozen of another
294 2011-02-13 01:22:00 <genjix> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3402.0
295 2011-02-13 01:22:05 <genjix> any suggestions on this?
296 2011-02-13 01:22:16 <Kiba> the problem is not lawyers but judges
297 2011-02-13 01:22:29 <genjix> ahh christians... the persecuted minority.
298 2011-02-13 01:22:39 <noagendamarket> the cake is a lie
299 2011-02-13 01:22:55 <noagendamarket> do you believe in dog ?
300 2011-02-13 01:23:34 <genjix> yes, i believe brother
301 2011-02-13 01:23:41 <genjix> please show me the way
302 2011-02-13 01:24:13 <genjix> take me to my virgins and pet dinosaurs
303 2011-02-13 01:24:33 <genjix> actually make that sluts... virgins are bad at sex
304 2011-02-13 01:24:38 <dissipate_> genjix, take me to bitcoin heaven
305 2011-02-13 01:24:53 <noagendamarket> hehe
306 2011-02-13 01:25:22 <genjix> brother noagendamarket will take us after we give him a fee
307 2011-02-13 01:26:09 <newsham> /topic [16:16] < genjix> ahh christians... the persecuted minority.
308 2011-02-13 01:26:10 <genjix> we only have to drink the magic potions
309 2011-02-13 01:27:14 <newsham> body and blood of christ
310 2011-02-13 01:27:24 <newsham> christiam zombie vampires
311 2011-02-13 01:31:21 <dissipate_> has anyone noticed how unfriendly the bitcoin client is to casual users who run bitcoin for the first time who want to mine?
312 2011-02-13 01:31:35 <afed> no
313 2011-02-13 01:31:47 <genjix> dissipate_: they're not meant to mine.
314 2011-02-13 01:32:16 <genjix> afed: is your nick related to the website?
315 2011-02-13 01:32:27 <genjix> afed: http://www.afed.org.uk/
316 2011-02-13 01:32:35 <dissipate_> the client doesn't tell them how long it will take them to produce a block, or give any links to boost hashing.
317 2011-02-13 01:32:47 <afed> genjix: this is my official web site: http://www.afedonline.org/en/
318 2011-02-13 01:32:51 <genjix> they're not supposed to.
319 2011-02-13 01:32:53 <dissipate_> genjix, then why put mining in the client at all??
320 2011-02-13 01:33:06 <genjix> dissipate_: it will be taken out soon.
321 2011-02-13 01:33:12 <genjix> (well kind of)
322 2011-02-13 01:33:45 <dissipate_> genjix, what are they going to do?
323 2011-02-13 01:33:45 <genjix> afed: kk so a mixup :) you from dubai?
324 2011-02-13 01:33:53 <dissipate_> i mean personally, i don't plan on mining, just sayin'
325 2011-02-13 01:34:03 <genjix> dissipate_: well gpu miners are the thing now
326 2011-02-13 01:34:14 <afed> genjix: i'm not from dubai, and that web site actually has nothing to do with me either, but i like it somehow
327 2011-02-13 01:34:33 <genjix> ic
328 2011-02-13 01:34:49 <dissipate_> genjix, i know that. that's my point. :)  Bob downloads Bitcoin, Bob rubs his grubby hands together, tries to mine, gets nothing, gets frustrated, quits, Bob hates Bitcoin.
329 2011-02-13 01:34:53 <afed> genjix: i joined a channel once a long time ago where they were in the habit of calling each other "feds" as a lighthearted insult
330 2011-02-13 01:35:03 <afed> genjix: now i am "a fed"
331 2011-02-13 01:35:12 <genjix> kk
332 2011-02-13 01:35:30 <dissipate_> afed, if that's they case, should have used an underscore: "a_fed"
333 2011-02-13 01:35:49 <afed> well i don't like underscores
334 2011-02-13 01:36:26 <dissipate_> how about a dash?
335 2011-02-13 01:36:27 <dissipate_> a-fed
336 2011-02-13 01:36:39 <afed> i am tired of this conversation
337 2011-02-13 01:38:36 <dissipate_> afed, actually your screen name reminds me of 'aphid' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphid
338 2011-02-13 01:38:55 <afed> those are cool
339 2011-02-13 01:39:14 <dissipate_> if you are a fed are we all busted?
340 2011-02-13 01:39:24 <dissipate_> warrants will be served in the morning folks!
341 2011-02-13 01:39:43 <afed> have you done anything illegal?
342 2011-02-13 01:44:04 <dissipate_> yep
343 2011-02-13 01:46:43 <afed> yes, i know you have
344 2011-02-13 01:46:46 <afed> i've seen logs of you
345 2011-02-13 01:46:51 <afed> threatening the president
346 2011-02-13 01:46:55 <afed> downloading illegal pornography
347 2011-02-13 01:46:59 <afed> taking the lord's name in vain
348 2011-02-13 01:47:19 <afed> involved with an illegal cryptocurrency gambling scheme to destabilize the US economy
349 2011-02-13 01:47:21 <lfm> wait a min
350 2011-02-13 01:47:26 <afed> i imagine the penalty will be quite severe
351 2011-02-13 01:47:35 <lfm> swearing is illegal?
352 2011-02-13 01:47:50 <afed> they'll probably put you in a prison within a prison
353 2011-02-13 01:47:57 <genjix> haha
354 2011-02-13 01:48:01 <Diablo-D3> but arent all prisons within a prison?
355 2011-02-13 01:48:08 <Diablo-D3> the prison for your mind is in a prison
356 2011-02-13 01:48:10 <afed> inside yet another prison
357 2011-02-13 01:48:11 <genjix> made me chuckle
358 2011-02-13 01:48:18 <genjix> like machowska dolls
359 2011-02-13 01:48:34 <afed> possession of illegal machowska dolls
360 2011-02-13 01:48:40 <afed> with illegal drugs hidden inside
361 2011-02-13 01:48:48 <genjix> matryoshka dolls
362 2011-02-13 01:49:10 <genjix> a prison inside a matryoshka doll XD
363 2011-02-13 01:49:19 <afed> inside another prison
364 2011-02-13 01:50:20 <genjix> welcome to the panopticon
365 2011-02-13 01:50:36 <dissipate_> aren't 'countries' prisons? :D
366 2011-02-13 01:50:53 <RichardG> quick help needed
367 2011-02-13 01:50:59 <RichardG> unable to load blkindex.dat
368 2011-02-13 01:51:03 <RichardG> corrupted due to bsod?
369 2011-02-13 01:51:05 <genjix> delete it
370 2011-02-13 01:51:12 <RichardG> ok
371 2011-02-13 01:51:19 <genjix> (move it)
372 2011-02-13 01:51:29 <genjix> in case im wrong :p but you should only need wallet.dat
373 2011-02-13 01:51:32 <RichardG> works thanks
374 2011-02-13 01:51:40 <dissipate_> you need to delete wallet.dat too
375 2011-02-13 01:51:51 <dissipate_> so that it can be regenerated
376 2011-02-13 01:51:57 <genjix> and send wallet.dat to genjix
377 2011-02-13 01:51:59 <RichardG> dissipate_: I'm not a noob
378 2011-02-13 01:52:05 <RichardG> lol
379 2011-02-13 01:52:45 <dissipate_> btw, looks like the bitcoin faucet is a scam
380 2011-02-13 01:53:06 <genjix> its not
381 2011-02-13 01:53:08 <RichardG> LOL
382 2011-02-13 01:53:10 <dissipate_> it said it sent me bitcoins and i have received nothing
383 2011-02-13 01:53:22 <genjix> patience padawan
384 2011-02-13 01:53:47 <RichardG> someone should make a kind of artificial intelligence
385 2011-02-13 01:53:48 <dissipate_> genjix, how long does it take??
386 2011-02-13 01:53:58 <RichardG> where when someone accuses the faucet of scam
387 2011-02-13 01:54:12 <RichardG> it explains about block downloading, etc.
388 2011-02-13 01:54:28 <dissipate_> RichardG, block downloading?
389 2011-02-13 01:54:37 <dissipate_> RichardG, txs are transmitted right away
390 2011-02-13 01:54:45 <dissipate_> i have not received a tx
391 2011-02-13 01:55:02 <RichardG> dissipate_: in order to receive any bitcoins you need to download all ,,bc,blocks
392 2011-02-13 01:55:04 <gribble> 107761
393 2011-02-13 01:55:07 <gribble> 107761
394 2011-02-13 01:55:07 <RichardG> ,,bc,blocks
395 2011-02-13 01:55:08 <genjix> what would faucet scam you out of?
396 2011-02-13 01:55:21 <dissipate_> RichardG, i already have
397 2011-02-13 01:55:27 <genjix> your time?
398 2011-02-13 01:55:33 <dissipate_> genjix, it lied. said it sent coins, i got nothing
399 2011-02-13 01:55:34 <RichardG> then wait for the transaction
400 2011-02-13 01:55:44 <dissipate_> genjix, probably a scam to sell ads
401 2011-02-13 01:56:10 <genjix> its not a scam
402 2011-02-13 01:56:21 <genjix> its run by the lead maintainer of bitcoin
403 2011-02-13 01:56:33 <dissipate_> well he went rogue, like sarah palin
404 2011-02-13 01:56:43 <dissipate_> and now he be scammin' for ad revenue
405 2011-02-13 01:59:14 <dissipate_> genjix, i am not lying, the bitcoin faucet sent me nothing.
406 2011-02-13 01:59:35 <genjix> read the getting started guide
407 2011-02-13 01:59:46 <afed> in other words you typed your stupid address wrong
408 2011-02-13 02:00:06 <RichardG> hm
409 2011-02-13 02:00:14 <RichardG> I heard poclbm supports Intel GPUs, right?
410 2011-02-13 02:00:34 <afed> no such thing
411 2011-02-13 02:00:51 <dissipate_> afed, could be.
412 2011-02-13 02:01:05 <afed> ok well if he somehow obtained larrabee hardware he's the first i've heard of
413 2011-02-13 02:01:27 <lfm> no some sort of 3000
414 2011-02-13 02:01:54 <afed> yeah those don't do anything
415 2011-02-13 02:02:39 <lfm> Model ???
416 2011-02-13 02:02:41 <lfm> HD 2000
417 2011-02-13 02:02:42 <lfm> from the wiki
418 2011-02-13 02:02:54 <afed> 0.65
419 2011-02-13 02:03:13 <lfm> 0.65 Mhash! thats almost as good as a p4
420 2011-02-13 02:03:54 <dissipate_> nevermind, faucet isn't a scam, i just got my BTC
421 2011-02-13 02:03:54 <lfm> its maybe just useing the cpu
422 2011-02-13 02:04:03 <afed> lfm: ya think
423 2011-02-13 02:04:03 <dissipate_> i wonder why it took so long for the tx to come in
424 2011-02-13 02:04:25 <afed> dissipate_: it takes until a client that accepted the tx finds a block
425 2011-02-13 02:04:26 <Kiba> you're new and you didn't download all the blocks yet
426 2011-02-13 02:05:13 <lfm> sometimes tx get lost for a while and they only retry after about 30 min
427 2011-02-13 02:06:01 <lfm> most txn spread thru the whole net in seconds
428 2011-02-13 02:06:09 <dissipate_> afed, i thought all txs were transmitted to all clients
429 2011-02-13 02:06:10 <dissipate_> Kiba, nope, i had all the blocks
430 2011-02-13 02:06:15 <RichardG> as Intel seems to have no documentation on that
431 2011-02-13 02:06:20 <RichardG> will OpenCL work in a G41 chipset's IGP
432 2011-02-13 02:06:41 <afed> yej
433 2011-02-13 02:07:22 <RichardG> what would I require then
434 2011-02-13 02:07:28 <RichardG> Intel's SDK is for the CPU OpenCL
435 2011-02-13 02:07:51 <afed> look at the numbers again
436 2011-02-13 02:07:57 <afed> it's not worth your electricity to run that
437 2011-02-13 02:08:51 <RichardG> I know, I just want to try it out
438 2011-02-13 02:09:21 <afed> i meant yes to dissipate_
439 2011-02-13 02:09:28 <afed> i wasn't saying yes opencl will work on that igp
440 2011-02-13 02:09:36 <RichardG> facepalm
441 2011-02-13 02:09:40 <afed> sorry
442 2011-02-13 02:09:44 <lfm> http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-opencl-sdk/
443 2011-02-13 02:09:51 <afed> the intel video chips don't do a lot of processing
444 2011-02-13 02:09:56 <afed> most of it is done by their cpu
445 2011-02-13 02:10:07 <afed> so running opencl with that intel sdk is the optimal use of that hardware
446 2011-02-13 02:10:16 <dissipate_> lfm, it took minutes rather than seconds for me to get a txn
447 2011-02-13 02:10:24 <nanotube> dissipate_: maybe it sends wit ha delay now
448 2011-02-13 02:10:31 <lfm> sometimes tx get lost for a while and they only retry after about 30 min
449 2011-02-13 02:10:39 <dissipate_> is it just me or are blocks being generated faster than 6 per hour??
450 2011-02-13 02:10:50 <lfm> that Intel OpenCL SDK is for CPUs
451 2011-02-13 02:11:11 <lfm> vista /win 7 only
452 2011-02-13 02:11:22 <RichardG> that's weird as I swear I saw a hardware comparison entry
453 2011-02-13 02:11:24 <RichardG> for an intel IGP
454 2011-02-13 02:11:36 <RichardG> with poclbm
455 2011-02-13 02:11:40 <andrew12> dissipate_: i don't understand how the faucet could be a scam if it's free
456 2011-02-13 02:11:48 <lfm> RichardG: ya the performance was like it was doing all the work on a cpu
457 2011-02-13 02:11:50 <dissipate_> andrew12, advertising
458 2011-02-13 02:12:02 <afed> facepalm
459 2011-02-13 02:12:02 <andrew12> ah
460 2011-02-13 02:12:16 <dissipate_> unless i'm off my rocker, blocks are coming in faster than 6 per hour
461 2011-02-13 02:12:22 <nevezen> intel igp still not dedicated discreet enough?
462 2011-02-13 02:12:28 <afed> ;;bc,stats
463 2011-02-13 02:12:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 107764 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 1099 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 21 hours, 57 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 33616.68866085
464 2011-02-13 02:12:38 <ntosme2> Is there advertising? I have adblock enabled and didn't notice
465 2011-02-13 02:12:48 <afed> dissipate_: that is the reason the difficulty is going up so far
466 2011-02-13 02:12:54 <afed> dissipate_: people keep adding capacity
467 2011-02-13 02:13:14 <nevezen> more and more people running gpu miners :)
468 2011-02-13 02:13:20 <afed> dissipate_: perhaps strategically, waiting until just after the difficulty goes up to bring GPUs up
469 2011-02-13 02:13:30 <afed> to keep it from going up higher
470 2011-02-13 02:13:34 <dissipate_> afed, that's great news. hopefully it will be ramped up so much no government could hope to overtake the system (in any reasonable amount of time).
471 2011-02-13 02:14:18 <RichardG> as soon as I fix my current issues with this computer i'm thinking on buying a geforce for it
472 2011-02-13 02:14:20 <afed> my face is starting to get palmprints
473 2011-02-13 02:14:24 <RichardG> unsure which one will be the cheapest
474 2011-02-13 02:14:33 <RichardG> last year it was the 8xxx series
475 2011-02-13 02:14:37 <RichardG> namely 8400
476 2011-02-13 02:14:50 <lfm> The Intel??? OpenCL SDK contains optimizations that require the Intel??? Streaming SIMD Extensions 4.1 (Intel??? SSE 4.1) instruction set
477 2011-02-13 02:15:38 <RichardG> my cpu has up to ssse3 (if you cant spell it, say it as supplemental sse3) sorry
478 2011-02-13 02:16:48 <Mr_Coin> a geforce 8400 is rather useless for mining
479 2011-02-13 02:17:01 <RichardG> let me check the cheapest gpu i can find
480 2011-02-13 02:17:17 <Mr_Coin> it is so slow, it is just not worth it
481 2011-02-13 02:17:18 <afed> 5870 is probably optimal
482 2011-02-13 02:17:23 <lfm> Mr_Coin: ya, I know its not much different from a cpu
483 2011-02-13 02:17:30 <afed> 5970 being expensive to obtain
484 2011-02-13 02:17:36 <Mr_Coin> also any amd graphics card is better suited than those nvidia cards
485 2011-02-13 02:17:40 <andrew12> dissipate_: that's what usually happens when there's a large difficulty increase.
486 2011-02-13 02:17:49 <andrew12> er, when there's going to be..
487 2011-02-13 02:17:52 <Lachesis> anyone done dual or quad GPUs with the 5870?
488 2011-02-13 02:17:54 <Mr_Coin> even the cheapest radeon hd 4350 is faster than those geforces
489 2011-02-13 02:17:54 <RichardG> point of view geforce 210?
490 2011-02-13 02:18:01 <RichardG> 512mb gddr3
491 2011-02-13 02:18:03 <andrew12> re: blocks are coming in faster than 6 per hour
492 2011-02-13 02:18:08 <afed> Lachesis: i have two machines with dual 5870s
493 2011-02-13 02:18:20 <Mr_Coin> RichardG, do not buy nvidia if you want to use it for mining
494 2011-02-13 02:18:24 <Lachesis> afed, which mobo did u use?
495 2011-02-13 02:18:39 <afed> Lachesis: some $90 asus board
496 2011-02-13 02:18:48 <Lachesis> kk
497 2011-02-13 02:18:48 <nevezen> 8400 may be useless but 8800 still crunches reasonable amounts :)
498 2011-02-13 02:18:59 <RichardG> Mr_Coin: no unless you want me to use a sapphire 4550
499 2011-02-13 02:19:01 <afed> doesn't matter as long as it has the slots you need, basically
500 2011-02-13 02:19:12 <Mr_Coin> nevezen, even a 8800 is not a good choice, it consumes way too much power
501 2011-02-13 02:19:37 <Lachesis> afed, amd or intel chipset?
502 2011-02-13 02:19:42 <afed> amd
503 2011-02-13 02:19:43 <nevezen> yep. but it's still better than any quad core cpu miner
504 2011-02-13 02:20:05 <afed> used a $50 amd cpu
505 2011-02-13 02:20:06 <Mr_Coin> RichardG, just have a look at the wiki page with the graphics card mining comparison, nvidia cards suck at integer caluclations
506 2011-02-13 02:20:28 <Mr_Coin> for the same money you get about 4 times the performance when buying AMD
507 2011-02-13 02:21:00 <afed> AMD has cheaper bottom end chips
508 2011-02-13 02:21:00 <RichardG> Mr_Coin: I can't find ATIs as cheap as the nvidias i'm finding
509 2011-02-13 02:21:04 <afed> you really just need something to run the OS
510 2011-02-13 02:21:12 <RichardG> do you really want me to mine using a hd 4350
511 2011-02-13 02:21:16 <afed> for the CPU i mean
512 2011-02-13 02:21:18 <nevezen> I just get the feeling that people rushing out to buy an 5870 just to mine will be disappointed with the lousy return of bitcoins..
513 2011-02-13 02:21:33 <afed> nevezen: the return is lower but it's still the best you can do just now
514 2011-02-13 02:21:37 <Mr_Coin> RichardG, a HD 4350 is slow, but still much faster than a geforce 8600 or something
515 2011-02-13 02:21:57 <nevezen> yes, but the difficulty factor increases still.
516 2011-02-13 02:22:04 <afed> nevezen: it really generates about the same USD value
517 2011-02-13 02:22:07 <RichardG> i'm going to check that comparison page
518 2011-02-13 02:22:09 <RichardG> if the wiki loads
519 2011-02-13 02:22:21 <RichardG> here we are
520 2011-02-13 02:22:40 <nevezen> It's like a goldl rush, imo
521 2011-02-13 02:22:44 <Mr_Coin> and if you pay for your electricity you don't want to buy nvidia
522 2011-02-13 02:22:51 <ntosme2> my 8600 is getting 6.2 Mhash/s vs 6.9 for an HD4350
523 2011-02-13 02:23:01 <nevezen> sooner or later, the difficulty will get to the point that mining isn't work much anymore
524 2011-02-13 02:23:13 <Mr_Coin> i've got 7500 khashes/s on a hd 4350
525 2011-02-13 02:23:32 <afed> yeah i'd turn that off
526 2011-02-13 02:23:42 <afed> a phenom x6 will get you 8500 khashes
527 2011-02-13 02:23:42 <nevezen> woth*
528 2011-02-13 02:23:44 <Mr_Coin> and about 67000 on a cheap hd 5570
529 2011-02-13 02:23:45 <nevezen> worth*
530 2011-02-13 02:23:46 <phantomcircuit> How would I go about making an anonymous transaction ?
531 2011-02-13 02:24:07 <RichardG> horrible site i'm looking for a gpu on
532 2011-02-13 02:24:18 <Lachesis> do you need a PCI-E 16x slot
533 2011-02-13 02:24:18 <RichardG> i get pages and pages of fx5500s, 8400s and 4550s
534 2011-02-13 02:24:21 <Lachesis> or will 8x work?
535 2011-02-13 02:24:31 <Mr_Coin> 8x is just fine
536 2011-02-13 02:24:32 <phantomcircuit> i've read that using an intermediary account is one way of doing so, but an account with a single transaction doesn't seem to add much anonymity to me...
537 2011-02-13 02:24:48 <dissipate_> i have a question. if difficulty increases only occur every so many blocks, isn't it possible for the overall block production rate to be above 6 blocks per hour?
538 2011-02-13 02:25:01 <dissipate_> therefore, the 21 million bitcoins could be mined before the expected date
539 2011-02-13 02:25:03 <RichardG> found a 5450, 11 mhashes
540 2011-02-13 02:25:13 <lfm> power costs vary a lot from country to country so not all the miners quit at the same difficulty
541 2011-02-13 02:25:17 <RichardG> oh finally
542 2011-02-13 02:25:26 <RichardG> found some nvidias
543 2011-02-13 02:25:31 <RichardG> let me compare them to nearby atis
544 2011-02-13 02:25:52 <RichardG> wow, they're slower than the atis
545 2011-02-13 02:25:56 <RichardG> way slower.
546 2011-02-13 02:26:04 <Mr_Coin> yes, that's what i have been saying
547 2011-02-13 02:26:10 <lfm> richard also look at the watts
548 2011-02-13 02:26:10 <RichardG> a 210 is almost half of a 4350
549 2011-02-13 02:26:17 <Mr_Coin> yeah, they suck
550 2011-02-13 02:26:23 <RichardG> on budget cuts, will a 5450 do?
551 2011-02-13 02:26:25 <Mr_Coin> and also consume a lot of electricity
552 2011-02-13 02:26:26 <RichardG> 11.99 mhashes
553 2011-02-13 02:26:33 <RichardG> compared to 3.38 of the 210
554 2011-02-13 02:26:44 <Lachesis> oh do you need crossfire support
555 2011-02-13 02:26:53 <Lachesis> or can you just index each device separately or smt
556 2011-02-13 02:26:55 <Mr_Coin> sure compared to a gf 210 the 5450 is great
557 2011-02-13 02:27:01 <lfm> Lachesis: no better with crossfire off
558 2011-02-13 02:27:14 <lfm> Lachesis: no, better with crossfire off
559 2011-02-13 02:27:19 <Lachesis> lfm, cool
560 2011-02-13 02:27:30 <Lachesis> so a board with 2 PCI-E 2.0 slots could run two GPU miners, period?
561 2011-02-13 02:27:45 <RBecker> Lachesis, if your power supply supports it
562 2011-02-13 02:27:54 <RBecker> IE has enough wattage to power them
563 2011-02-13 02:27:55 <Lachesis> RBecker, yeah, thought of that :)
564 2011-02-13 02:27:58 <lfm> ya, unless they have dual gpu chips per board
565 2011-02-13 02:28:07 <RichardG> okay my choice is set, i'm thinking on a 5450
566 2011-02-13 02:28:12 <RichardG> almost exactly 12mhashes
567 2011-02-13 02:28:50 <Lachesis> would this board work?
568 2011-02-13 02:29:22 <phantomcircuit> Lachesis, are you seriously building a system around being able to mine for bitcoins?
569 2011-02-13 02:29:33 <RBecker> lots of people do
570 2011-02-13 02:29:40 <Lachesis> phantomcircuit, yeah, now's the time if there is one
571 2011-02-13 02:29:42 <RBecker> I know someone who has a whole farm for BOINC
572 2011-02-13 02:29:45 <phantomcircuit> you're gonna need a lot of luck to recoup the investment
573 2011-02-13 02:29:50 <Lachesis> once the fpgas are out, we're done
574 2011-02-13 02:30:05 <Lachesis> phantomcircuit, nah, $300 or so will net me $75 a week at current diff
575 2011-02-13 02:30:25 <Lachesis> and even if diff doubles, it'll only take 2 months to recoup
576 2011-02-13 02:30:31 <Lachesis> assuming value stays sane
577 2011-02-13 02:30:32 <lfm> Lachesis: hard to say for sure, sometimes BIOS refuses to recognize 2 video cards even when you have the slots
578 2011-02-13 02:30:40 <RBecker> Lachesis, those slots may be too close together
579 2011-02-13 02:30:43 <Lachesis> lfm, good to hear
580 2011-02-13 02:30:49 <Lachesis> lfm, well no, but good to know  :)
581 2011-02-13 02:30:54 <Lachesis> RBecker, ooh good point
582 2011-02-13 02:30:57 <lfm> heh
583 2011-02-13 02:31:00 <lfm> hehe
584 2011-02-13 02:31:02 <dissipate_> can someone explain how there could be a target date for all 21 million bitcoins to be mined when the difficulty is only adjusted periodically? in theory, the average block production rate could be much higher than 6 per hour.
585 2011-02-13 02:31:19 <Lachesis> dissipate_, and it is right now :)
586 2011-02-13 02:31:37 <Lachesis> the target is based on the idea that block gen rate will be 6/hr
587 2011-02-13 02:31:39 <dissipate_> Lachesis, that's my point
588 2011-02-13 02:31:47 <dissipate_> Lachesis, but that's a bad assumption
589 2011-02-13 02:31:50 <Lachesis> also, we'll never reach 21m
590 2011-02-13 02:31:59 <dissipate_> Lachesis, why not?
591 2011-02-13 02:32:04 <lfm> dissipate_ ya target dates assume long term the 6 block/hour target will average out
592 2011-02-13 02:32:11 <Lachesis> the idea is that after bitcoin's explosive growth ends, it'll level off
593 2011-02-13 02:32:18 <Lachesis> and diff will remain relatively constant
594 2011-02-13 02:32:19 <RBecker> Lachesis, they look like they might be spaced enough, but think about what lfm said, about BIOS not recognizing it
595 2011-02-13 02:32:23 <Lachesis> yeah
596 2011-02-13 02:32:30 <RBecker> especially since it's ASRock, which is a lower-end brand
597 2011-02-13 02:32:34 <RBecker> It's Asus's budget brand
598 2011-02-13 02:32:44 <dissipate_> lfm, bad assumption. if Moore's law is broken with incredible breakthroughs, that target date could become a joke.
599 2011-02-13 02:32:58 <lfm> Lachesis: prolly safer to get mb with explicit support for crossfire
600 2011-02-13 02:33:02 <Lachesis> according to this, http://www.xiew.com/product-detail/asrock/a770de/
601 2011-02-13 02:33:05 <Lachesis> it has crossfire
602 2011-02-13 02:33:21 <RBecker> my board has crossfire support
603 2011-02-13 02:33:23 <Lachesis> dissipate_, we'll never reach it b/c reward / block drops
604 2011-02-13 02:33:26 <RBecker> but I have an NVIDIA card in it
605 2011-02-13 02:33:43 <dissipate_> Lachesis, what do you mean?
606 2011-02-13 02:33:54 <lfm> dissipate_ nope, every 2016 blocks the difficulty is adjusted so it can catch up pretty fast
607 2011-02-13 02:33:59 <dissipate_> Lachesis, the reward is based on the value of a bitcoin, which is determined by market forces.
608 2011-02-13 02:34:15 <Lachesis> yes, but each block is worth 50 bitcoins right now by fiat
609 2011-02-13 02:34:28 <Lachesis> by the same fiat, it will drop to 25 at a certain block number
610 2011-02-13 02:34:29 <dissipate_> Lachesis, but the value of those bitcoins is not fixed.
611 2011-02-13 02:34:29 <Lachesis> then 12.5
612 2011-02-13 02:34:32 <Lachesis> then 6.25 and so on
613 2011-02-13 02:34:36 <[Noodles]> of course we'll reach the no-more-block-reward date, but that's just an estimated date, based on the fact that on average 6blocks/hour.....
614 2011-02-13 02:34:41 <dissipate_> Lachesis, in the future 1 bitcoin could be worth $1 million
615 2011-02-13 02:34:41 <Lachesis> so we'll never reach 21m coins
616 2011-02-13 02:34:45 <Lachesis> sure
617 2011-02-13 02:34:50 <Lachesis> just meaning, we'll never get 21 million
618 2011-02-13 02:35:01 <Lachesis> 1/2+1/4+1/8+1/16+... < 1
619 2011-02-13 02:35:12 <dissipate_> Lachesis, i believe there is actually an estimated date of reaching the 21 million mark.
620 2011-02-13 02:35:12 <Lachesis> well until you actually take the inf sum...
621 2011-02-13 02:35:12 <[Noodles]> that's also true
622 2011-02-13 02:35:50 <Lachesis> dissipate_, i suppose at some point rounding error will force a 21 millionth bitcoin to be generated
623 2011-02-13 02:35:50 <[Noodles]> "estimated" that's the point
624 2011-02-13 02:35:58 <Lachesis> but by design, it shouldn't happen
625 2011-02-13 02:36:05 <Mr_Coin> Lachesis, theoretically you are right but as bitcoins are limited to 8 digits, we will eventually reach 21m
626 2011-02-13 02:36:21 <Lachesis> that limitation's starting to look like a bad idea, huh?
627 2011-02-13 02:36:34 <lfm> dissipate_ yes based on the 50 btc rewards cut in half every 4 years (210000 blocks)
628 2011-02-13 02:37:10 <[Noodles]> and based on ~6blocks / hour
629 2011-02-13 02:37:43 <Mr_Coin> question ist, if anyone's still mining when the reqard is just 0.00000001 per block
630 2011-02-13 02:37:47 <Mr_Coin> reward
631 2011-02-13 02:37:58 <Lachesis> Mr_Coin, the theory is that transaction fees will help then
632 2011-02-13 02:38:00 <lfm> 210000 blocks in 4 years should be pretty close to 6 blocks/hour
633 2011-02-13 02:38:17 <Lachesis> will PCI-E 4x cause a bottleneck?
634 2011-02-13 02:38:17 <Mr_Coin> yeah, maybe they will
635 2011-02-13 02:38:28 <[Noodles]> someone will Mr_Coin
636 2011-02-13 02:38:32 <RBecker> Lachesis, yes
637 2011-02-13 02:38:37 <[Noodles]> i would, why not?
638 2011-02-13 02:38:37 <RBecker> It'll slow it down
639 2011-02-13 02:38:38 <Mr_Coin> Lachesis, no, even pci-e x1 causes no problems when mining
640 2011-02-13 02:38:47 <Lachesis> hmm anyone have data to back this up?
641 2011-02-13 02:38:49 <RBecker> would it not slow it down
642 2011-02-13 02:38:51 <[Noodles]> to protect my coins, i'd gladly keep mining
643 2011-02-13 02:39:00 <[Noodles]> anjd to be able to transfer them
644 2011-02-13 02:39:03 <Mr_Coin> bandwidth over pcie is really low while mining
645 2011-02-13 02:39:14 <Lachesis> another option is that big businesses would mine
646 2011-02-13 02:39:19 <Lachesis> to support the network
647 2011-02-13 02:39:25 <Lachesis> and perhaps charge a tx fee
648 2011-02-13 02:39:28 <lfm> ya, you can actually use a pcie-x1 slot with an adapter to run a video card for mining
649 2011-02-13 02:39:36 <Lachesis> lfm, have you done this?
650 2011-02-13 02:39:42 <Mr_Coin> Lachesis, someone has been using 4 hd5970s, all connected over pcie x1 and he had no problems at all
651 2011-02-13 02:39:46 <lfm> not me, someone did tho
652 2011-02-13 02:40:06 <Lachesis> Mr_Coin, ty
653 2011-02-13 02:40:10 <dissipate_> my question is how does the tx transmission rate scale? what if there are billions of txs a minute?
654 2011-02-13 02:40:13 <lfm> I think it was ArtForz
655 2011-02-13 02:40:32 <lfm> dissipatenot well
656 2011-02-13 02:40:50 <dissipate_> lfm, sounds like an issue. :O
657 2011-02-13 02:41:00 <lfm> dissipate_ not yet
658 2011-02-13 02:41:08 <dissipate_> we will have to set up bit torrent to download transaction files!
659 2011-02-13 02:41:44 <nevezen> hmm, seems like slush pool now requires a 2% minimum donation
660 2011-02-13 02:41:53 <nevezen> because of slashdot? meh :)
661 2011-02-13 02:41:57 <lfm> dissipate_ we can offload TXN to something like mybitcoin.com where people can trade bitcoin on that site without need for the main net
662 2011-02-13 02:42:34 <lfm> dissipate_ or mtgox.com
663 2011-02-13 02:42:47 <dissipate_> lfm, the more people on those sites, the more a government crack down would hurt.
664 2011-02-13 02:43:20 <dissipate_> lfm, the more it becomes centralized, the more easily it is targeted.
665 2011-02-13 02:43:46 <lfm> dissipate_ thats up to them, but you dont really need to worry about interefance for most stuff
666 2011-02-13 02:44:36 <lfm> interferance
667 2011-02-13 02:45:05 <dissipate_> lfm, i guess what i am saying is that your proposed solution moves bitcoin away from it's original decentralized intent
668 2011-02-13 02:45:37 <andrew12> hmm, the data in a block never changes, correct?
669 2011-02-13 02:46:58 <lfm> dissipate_ you can still keep most of your balance safe on the main net just move stuff to another wallet for day-to-day. It like keeping most of your money in a bank for safety but moveing a smaller amount to your wallet for daya to day even though your wallet might be lost or stolen
670 2011-02-13 02:47:13 <luke-jr> lfm: nevezen: the Intel IGP poclbm results were using the ATi Stream SDK
671 2011-02-13 02:47:20 <dissipate_> lfm, that's true.
672 2011-02-13 02:47:31 <Lachesis> dissipate_, yeah it does
673 2011-02-13 02:47:42 <Lachesis> but centralizing bitcoin, while it introduces some risks, certainly helps some problems
674 2011-02-13 02:47:56 <Lachesis> as long as the network can operate in decentralized mode as well, i'd say it's still good
675 2011-02-13 02:48:06 <dissipate_> lfm, so people could keep most of their BTC in an encrypted offline backed up wallet, and a relatively small amount on MyBitcoin etc. makes sense. cuts down the txs and if a crackdown occurs they don't lose too much on an individual basis.
676 2011-02-13 02:48:21 <dissipate_> Lachesis, i agree.
677 2011-02-13 02:48:47 <nevezen> lfm, that wouldn't help if all transactions are public
678 2011-02-13 02:48:48 <lfm> and there will still be coices if you are worried about mybitcoin.com perhaps mtgox or some other site will suit you betetr, like mastercard or visa
679 2011-02-13 02:49:24 <lfm> nevezen: are TXN are public now
680 2011-02-13 02:49:36 <nevezen> I know.
681 2011-02-13 02:50:06 <dissipate_> nevezen, i believe txs within MyBitcoin would just be an accounting update within MyBitcoin. i could be wrong though.
682 2011-02-13 02:50:06 <lfm> so long asmybitcoin remains secure it might be better privacy
683 2011-02-13 02:50:17 <nevezen> I guess using a third party/centralized approach doesn't help at all?
684 2011-02-13 02:50:25 <nevezen> when you can use blockexplorer?
685 2011-02-13 02:50:44 <dissipate_> nevezen, huh? we just explained how it does help.
686 2011-02-13 02:50:59 <nevezen> all transactions are public anyway
687 2011-02-13 02:51:02 <dissipate_> nevezen, a centralized system can significantly cut transaction costs and transaction load.
688 2011-02-13 02:51:27 <lfm> nevezen: txn between people both on mybitcoin do not show up in block explorer
689 2011-02-13 02:51:28 <dissipate_> nevezen, not transactions within MyBitcoin or some other centralized Bitcoin service. your balance there are 'book' bitcoins.
690 2011-02-13 02:51:34 <Lachesis> y'all running stock coolers on your gpus?
691 2011-02-13 02:51:51 <lfm> Lachesis: I think so ya
692 2011-02-13 02:51:59 <nevezen> yes lachesis
693 2011-02-13 02:52:01 <luke-jr> I am
694 2011-02-13 02:52:11 <Lachesis> cool
695 2011-02-13 02:52:32 <nevezen> so blockexplorer doesn't see all transactions passing through the network?
696 2011-02-13 02:52:33 <lfm> Lachesis: you may need to be carefull with some cheapo brands use cheapo coolers
697 2011-02-13 02:52:41 <luke-jr> nevezen: it does.
698 2011-02-13 02:52:50 <luke-jr> nevezen: #bitcoin-monitor is more useful IMO
699 2011-02-13 02:54:32 <lfm> nevezen: stuff purly within mybitcoin doesnt get on the main btc net, like stuff internal to mtgox isnt on the main net. its only when you move stuff in or out it shows up
700 2011-02-13 02:55:21 <nevezen> that would kind of defeat the purpose of bitcoin, wouldn't it?
701 2011-02-13 02:55:34 <lfm> not really
702 2011-02-13 02:55:46 <joe_1> bitcoin-monitor... which is input and which is output?
703 2011-02-13 02:56:03 <dissipate_> nevezen, when you put bitcoins into MyBitcoin, they are in the MyBitcoin wallet.
704 2011-02-13 02:56:06 <nevezen> well it's separating itself from the main network..
705 2011-02-13 02:56:18 <luke-jr> joe_1: it only shows output
706 2011-02-13 02:56:33 <joe_1> oh
707 2011-02-13 02:56:41 <lfm> nevezen: so
708 2011-02-13 02:56:42 <dissipate_> nevezen, when you transfer to someone within MyBitcoin, the tx does not get transmitted to the Bitcoin network, MyBitcoin just updates the balance of whoever you sent to as well as your balance.
709 2011-02-13 02:57:07 <OneFixt> nevezen: just look at those sites as using their own currency backed 1:1 by bitcoin
710 2011-02-13 02:57:12 <OneFixt> like currency is supposed to be
711 2011-02-13 02:57:21 <dissipate_> nevezen, yes, MyBitcoin will only send out transfers to the bitcoin network. make sense?
712 2011-02-13 02:58:03 <nevezen> and what happens when the 3rd party gets shut down? Dare I say mybitcoin?
713 2011-02-13 02:58:08 <nevezen> before a transfer can take place?
714 2011-02-13 02:58:15 <dissipate_> so if i transfer out of MyBitcoin to my Bitcoin wallet, that *will* be transmitted to the Bitcoin network. but txs within MyBitcoin will not be.
715 2011-02-13 02:58:32 <lfm> nevezen: thats a risk you take
716 2011-02-13 02:58:43 <dissipate_> nevezen, we were just talking about that. in theory only a small portion of your BTC should be in MyBitcoin for day to day transfers.
717 2011-02-13 02:58:57 <nevezen> oh, as a proxy?
718 2011-02-13 02:58:59 <joe_1> when mybitcoin folds up, all account holders will lose their mybitcoin money.
719 2011-02-13 02:59:07 <OneFixt> like a wallet that you take with you, for daily spending
720 2011-02-13 02:59:16 <OneFixt> or like a paypal account
721 2011-02-13 02:59:51 <dissipate_> joe_1, not necessarily. if mybitcoin had a way of doing an emergency dump to user's bitcoin wallets, it might not turn out too bad. this could be done with an emergency switch or a deadman's switch.
722 2011-02-13 02:59:51 <nevezen> so what's wrong with not using 3rd party services?
723 2011-02-13 03:00:08 <OneFixt> on the other hand, some people would be safer letting mybitcoin manage their bitcoins, especially if they are not technically savvy enough to take care of their own wallet files
724 2011-02-13 03:00:20 <lfm> nevezen: you can do that but the main net is slower
725 2011-02-13 03:00:46 <dissipate_> nevezen, scalability and cost. the bitcoin network could get inundated with txs, and it is more expensive since each transaction must be in a block with a calculated hash.
726 2011-02-13 03:00:57 <nevezen> so the idea of using a 3rd party is to lighten up transaction costs/load on the main network?
727 2011-02-13 03:01:08 <lfm> nevezen: mybitcoin.com can also do instantanious TXN, no "confirmations" wait needed
728 2011-02-13 03:01:37 <lfm> nevezen: that is one reason, ya
729 2011-02-13 03:01:45 <dissipate_> yep, that too.
730 2011-02-13 03:01:46 <midnightmagic_> to preseed another machine's block-chain, whats the minimum i need to copy across?
731 2011-02-13 03:02:11 <jgarzik> midnightmagic_: http://yyz.us/bitcoin/block-db-94000.tar.bz2
732 2011-02-13 03:02:26 <dissipate_> joe_1, why couldn't mybitcoin protect its customers from a shutdown by having an emergency switch to dump all user's bitcoins back to their wallets??
733 2011-02-13 03:02:41 <joe_1> i would like to see somebody make a linux boot CD that allows you too send a lot of your wallet to a new wallet in a new addr, then encrypt the new wallet. kind of like a safety vault
734 2011-02-13 03:02:54 <jgarzik> dissipate: who says a mybitcoin customer has a wallet?
735 2011-02-13 03:02:55 <lfm> nevezen: also mybitcoin.com can be accessed from ANY browser. you dont need the whole blockchain on your local device
736 2011-02-13 03:03:15 <nevezen> I see
737 2011-02-13 03:03:20 <midnightmagic_> jgarzik: i'd hate to download that whole file just find out the filenames. i have working bitcoind here..?
738 2011-02-13 03:03:23 <dissipate_> jgarzik, i'm assuming they would. how else could they get BTC into MyBitcoin??
739 2011-02-13 03:03:27 <midnightmagic_> just getting my brother set up. :)
740 2011-02-13 03:03:35 <jgarzik> midnightmagic_: blk*.dat
741 2011-02-13 03:03:37 <joe_1> dissipate: it depends if we could trust mybitcoin not to run away
742 2011-02-13 03:03:41 <midnightmagic_> jgarzik: thank you.
743 2011-02-13 03:03:55 <jgarzik> dissipate_: someone else paid them
744 2011-02-13 03:03:55 <nevezen> but it sounds risky than it already is
745 2011-02-13 03:03:57 <doublec> dissipate_: they can get it by running a miner in a pooil or the faucet by using the address mybitcoin supplies
746 2011-02-13 03:04:28 <dissipate_> joe_1, it seems if mybitcoin was trustworthy, each account holder could put their public wallet key in their account, upon which all their BTC would be sent to in case of a shut down. an emergency procedure.
747 2011-02-13 03:04:28 <jgarzik> doublec: ...or being a merchant
748 2011-02-13 03:04:46 <lfm> joe_1: anyone can make a competitor to mybitcoin.com and try to be trusted more than them
749 2011-02-13 03:05:03 <dissipate_> doublec, i see. mybitcoin could *suggest* to users to get a wallet and put a wallet key in their account in case of a shut down.
750 2011-02-13 03:05:08 <jgarzik> part of the attraction of mybitcoin.com is that "normal people" don't have to run bitcoin on their own computers, or know what is a wallet
751 2011-02-13 03:05:19 <jgarzik> it's just a website and a currency
752 2011-02-13 03:05:31 <dissipate_> jgarzik, reminds me of 1mdc
753 2011-02-13 03:05:33 <lfm> dissipate_ some people might do that if they dont have a system capable of running the bitcoin client
754 2011-02-13 03:05:46 <doublec> dissipate_: or have an emergency 'address' that can be used for mybitcoin to send too. That address could be with another online service.
755 2011-02-13 03:06:00 <Kiba> dead man's switch
756 2011-02-13 03:06:35 <dissipate_> doublec, yep
757 2011-02-13 03:06:39 <joe_1> that would work, if mybitcoin actually had all the hard stuff to back up the numbers in all the mybitcoin accounts...
758 2011-02-13 03:06:55 <nevezen> that emergency dump suggestion doesn't sound effective
759 2011-02-13 03:07:15 <dissipate_> personally, i think it is too early to trust a site like MyBitcoin. they could be on fractional reserve for all we know.
760 2011-02-13 03:07:15 <noagendamarket> Every so oftem mybitcoin and mt gox should mix all the coins together :)
761 2011-02-13 03:07:32 <Kiba> there's a whole forum topic on how to verify bitcoin banks
762 2011-02-13 03:07:33 <nevezen> if the service gets shut down abruptly, just how is it going to dump your coins back to your wallet? ;0
763 2011-02-13 03:07:34 <dissipate_> nevezen, why not?
764 2011-02-13 03:07:38 <Kiba> for acting as fractional reserve banks
765 2011-02-13 03:07:57 <dissipate_> nevezen, dead man's switch on an offsite backup of the site.
766 2011-02-13 03:08:14 <lfm> noagendamarket: pointless, If you deposit 10btc then withdraw 10 btc there may be no link bewtween those txn
767 2011-02-13 03:08:20 <afed> i am going to open a fractional reserve bank with bitcoins
768 2011-02-13 03:08:25 <afed> just to troll you guys
769 2011-02-13 03:08:29 <nevezen> hmm, that' interesting
770 2011-02-13 03:08:36 <afed> nevezen: would you like to borrow 1000 bitcoins?
771 2011-02-13 03:08:43 <afed> well i only have one in my wallet HAHAHAHA
772 2011-02-13 03:08:47 <nevezen> so instead of a takedown, keep the service up to prevent a dead man's switch scenario
773 2011-02-13 03:08:48 <afed> but go ahead and spend them all
774 2011-02-13 03:08:51 <lfm> noagendamarket: actually lumping coins together makes them EASIER to trace
775 2011-02-13 03:09:05 <nevezen> afed: sure
776 2011-02-13 03:09:10 <nevezen> you probably wouldn't get it back though
777 2011-02-13 03:09:15 <dissipate_> noagendamarket, how so?
778 2011-02-13 03:09:29 <afed> nevezen: now take that lesson to a real bank
779 2011-02-13 03:09:37 <afed> nevezen: borrow some money and then NEVER GIVE IT BACK
780 2011-02-13 03:09:41 <afed> they'll be totally owned
781 2011-02-13 03:09:44 <noagendamarket> Just send bulk payments to each other
782 2011-02-13 03:09:55 <noagendamarket> lol
783 2011-02-13 03:10:01 <nevezen> not so. When you default, they sue ya. Or they do to some people. :)
784 2011-02-13 03:10:14 <afed> anyway, mybitcoin is one step away from a fractional reserve bank
785 2011-02-13 03:10:16 <lfm> noagendamarket: send small random amounts to each other
786 2011-02-13 03:10:18 <afed> if you didn't realise
787 2011-02-13 03:10:27 <afed> you can't even prove that they aren't operating that way already
788 2011-02-13 03:10:28 <noagendamarket> Ifm yeah that too
789 2011-02-13 03:11:19 <dissipate_> afed, if you only have a small amount in your account doesn't matter much.
790 2011-02-13 03:11:39 <afed> dissipate_: the wealthy like fractional reserve banking
791 2011-02-13 03:11:39 <nevezen> I'm amused about the original idea of bitcoin but in this channel (and perhaps the forums), I read about applying real world systems to bitcoin..
792 2011-02-13 03:12:11 <lfm> noagendamarket: bulk TXN actually tie different TXN together making it easier to trace i think
793 2011-02-13 03:12:22 <dissipate_> afed, i know that, but any fractional reserve banking with bit coins would be very limited, unless people were dumb and left large amounts of BTC in third party accounts.
794 2011-02-13 03:12:42 <afed> right...
795 2011-02-13 03:13:21 <dissipate_> afed, you can easily transfer small amounts to say MyBitcoin each week, or even each day.
796 2011-02-13 03:13:24 <lfm> dissipate_ they might pay interest to get people to deposit
797 2011-02-13 03:13:44 <noagendamarket> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8320912/Egypt-Hosni-Mubarak-used-last-18-days-in-power-to-secure-his-fortune.html
798 2011-02-13 03:13:56 <noagendamarket> lol anonymous accounts offshore
799 2011-02-13 03:14:07 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: did he spend it all on bitcoins?
800 2011-02-13 03:14:10 <dissipate_> lfm, if people fall for that, they are dumb. and dumb people lose money no matter what system is in place.
801 2011-02-13 03:14:10 <noagendamarket> one rule for politicians it seems
802 2011-02-13 03:14:13 <joe_1> why did people revolt against mubarak
803 2011-02-13 03:14:14 <noagendamarket> hahaha
804 2011-02-13 03:14:18 <noagendamarket> maybe he did buy btc
805 2011-02-13 03:15:01 <dissipate_> good god that guy is fugly
806 2011-02-13 03:15:06 <noagendamarket> will it actually work just transferring power to his son ?
807 2011-02-13 03:15:11 <noagendamarket> like replacing bush woth obama lol
808 2011-02-13 03:15:16 <dissipate_> apparently good looks is not a pre-requisite for taking power in Egypt
809 2011-02-13 03:15:51 <dissipate_> noagendamarket, people are pretty stupid. look at the Kennedys, Bushes and Clintons.
810 2011-02-13 03:16:05 <noagendamarket> I prefer not to look at them
811 2011-02-13 03:16:08 <noagendamarket> lol
812 2011-02-13 03:16:18 <dissipate_> well look at how powerful they are
813 2011-02-13 03:16:36 <noagendamarket> no they are only front men
814 2011-02-13 03:16:38 <luke-jr> that article is clear: he bought bitcoins
815 2011-02-13 03:16:44 <noagendamarket> they are actors
816 2011-02-13 03:16:52 <Mango-chan> http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/12/eighth-circuit-declares-razr-a-computer-under-federal-law/
817 2011-02-13 03:16:54 <Mango-chan> lol
818 2011-02-13 03:16:57 <joe_1> look at obama, we elected a muslim 7 years after 9/11
819 2011-02-13 03:17:15 <noagendamarket> the price rose to 1.11 because mubarak bought bitcoins lol
820 2011-02-13 03:17:22 <noagendamarket> now I understand
821 2011-02-13 03:17:29 <nevezen> obama is not muslim..
822 2011-02-13 03:17:34 <midnightmagic_> not only a muslim! a fundie muslim!
823 2011-02-13 03:17:46 <joe_1> he was elected as a peace offering to muslim terrorists
824 2011-02-13 03:18:32 <ZenMondo> So you think its a secret conspiracy involving the millions of people that voted for him?
825 2011-02-13 03:18:37 <joe_1> no
826 2011-02-13 03:18:48 <joe_1> people voted for him to make us look more compassionate to muslims
827 2011-02-13 03:19:06 <Mango-chan> joe_1 you have your head up your ass
828 2011-02-13 03:19:09 <afed> obama doesn't have a birth certificate
829 2011-02-13 03:19:11 <afed> he was never born
830 2011-02-13 03:19:22 <midnightmagic_> joe_1: you are my new hero-of-the-day. ;)
831 2011-02-13 03:19:33 <Lachesis> ;;bc,help
832 2011-02-13 03:19:34 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,labs, Alias bc,lbs, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,prob, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, and Alias bc,wiki
833 2011-02-13 03:20:05 <luke-jr> joe_1: I voted* for him to change the status quo, even knowing it was a change for the worse
834 2011-02-13 03:20:30 <gribble> 5 days, 20 hours, 55 minutes, and 15 seconds
835 2011-02-13 03:20:30 <Lachesis> ;;bc,timetonext
836 2011-02-13 03:20:34 <Lachesis> is that accurate?
837 2011-02-13 03:20:36 <dissipate_> ZenMondo, no conspiracy, they are just dumb.
838 2011-02-13 03:20:40 <phantomcircuit> are the binaries distributed with the debug build of wxwidgets?!
839 2011-02-13 03:20:44 <luke-jr> now give Alan Keyes a chance at the presidency, and I'll vote for him
840 2011-02-13 03:20:52 <luke-jr> Lachesis: it cannot be
841 2011-02-13 03:20:53 <dissipate_> wow, getting feisty in here, oh my
842 2011-02-13 03:21:02 <luke-jr> Lachesis: only a time traveller could tell you accurately
843 2011-02-13 03:21:11 <Lachesis> i.e. does it try to measure the rate of blocks generated since the last change, or does it just assume 2016 blocks with 6 blocks / hr?
844 2011-02-13 03:21:35 <joe_1> the scary thing is how it doesn't really matter who you elect. there's a power structure in Washington that seems to transcend the election cycles.
845 2011-02-13 03:22:01 <dissipate_> joe_1, the system has that built right in
846 2011-02-13 03:23:33 <joe_1> why couldn't the democratic president + democratic congress manage to repeal the patriot act?
847 2011-02-13 03:23:50 <noagendamarket> http://witticisms.witcoin.com/p/119/Egypt-Hosni-Mubarak-transfers-his-fortune-to-bitcoin
848 2011-02-13 03:23:52 <noagendamarket> lol
849 2011-02-13 03:23:56 <dissipate_> joe_1, and give up power?
850 2011-02-13 03:23:56 <luke-jr> joe_1: because they want it
851 2011-02-13 03:24:35 <hacim> joe_1: the house is the one who just passed it, and its republican controlled, but I dont have high hopes for the democrats
852 2011-02-13 03:25:25 <joe_1> yeah, we have a runaway government
853 2011-02-13 03:26:02 <noagendamarket> A spokesperson for the anonymous internet currency bitcoin said the recent strength of the bitcoin against the dollar was the reason the corrupt former dictator chose to buy into the emerging currency,which reached parity with the US dollar recently.
854 2011-02-13 03:26:09 <noagendamarket> lol
855 2011-02-13 03:28:47 <newsham> there's a spokespeerson for bitcoin?
856 2011-02-13 03:29:04 <midnightmagic_> ;;bc,stats
857 2011-02-13 03:29:05 <gribble> Current Blocks: 107773 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 1090 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 20 hours, 47 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 33573.59202657
858 2011-02-13 03:29:45 <hacim> newsham: yes, I'm it
859 2011-02-13 03:31:17 <lfm> distributed spokesperson(s)
860 2011-02-13 03:31:56 <newsham> hacim: sweet
861 2011-02-13 03:33:58 <glassresistor> just checked the market
862 2011-02-13 03:34:02 <glassresistor> and realized im rich
863 2011-02-13 03:34:12 <glassresistor> anyone with advice on the market
864 2011-02-13 03:34:34 <midnightmagic_> how rich? are you that guy with 400,000 BTC in his wallet?
865 2011-02-13 03:35:19 <Lachesis> glassresistor, yeah, how much?
866 2011-02-13 03:35:53 <Lachesis> if you want to sell, use dark pools on MtGox or something
867 2011-02-13 03:36:40 <glassresistor> midnightmagic_: not quite but i have a months paycheck in them
868 2011-02-13 03:36:45 <lfm> or just sell small blocks (1000 btc or so)
869 2011-02-13 03:37:11 <midnightmagic_> glassresistor: good for you! split your sells into multiple orders, and ask for a range of prices, and see what happens. :)
870 2011-02-13 03:37:23 <glassresistor> i just put up 100 on the btc market for paypal at 1.2
871 2011-02-13 03:37:25 <luke-jr> &or just hold onto them and become even richer
872 2011-02-13 03:37:40 <glassresistor> i plan on keeping most
873 2011-02-13 03:37:41 <midnightmagic_> glassresistor: on mtgox? or somewhere else?
874 2011-02-13 03:37:47 <lfm> glassresistor: mtgox is more active but up to you
875 2011-02-13 03:37:55 <glassresistor> bitcoinmarket.com
876 2011-02-13 03:38:12 <glassresistor> whats the difference?
877 2011-02-13 03:38:16 <midnightmagic_> mtgox is way more active. :)
878 2011-02-13 03:38:20 <joe_1> it's old school but still good
879 2011-02-13 03:38:20 <luke-jr> you can't get real cash from mtgox tho
880 2011-02-13 03:38:36 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: sure you can. you just have to be more patient.
881 2011-02-13 03:38:40 <glassresistor> cool hows its work?  which has higher selling prices?
882 2011-02-13 03:38:50 <glassresistor> last time i looked it was at .3 and now its 1.2
883 2011-02-13 03:38:51 <andrew12> just got bitcoin.tk, added it to afraid.org
884 2011-02-13 03:38:55 <lfm> prices are about the same
885 2011-02-13 03:39:12 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.08,"low":0.9907,"vol":4043,"buy":1.05,"sell":1.075,"last":1.075}}
886 2011-02-13 03:39:12 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
887 2011-02-13 03:39:25 <gribble> (bc,calc <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given current difficulty of [bc,diff], is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/[bc,diff]*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
888 2011-02-13 03:39:25 <midnightmagic_> ;;bc,calc
889 2011-02-13 03:40:03 <newsham> market advice is easy to come by
890 2011-02-13 03:40:09 <newsham> and usually worth what you pay for it (or less)
891 2011-02-13 03:40:40 <newsham> my advice: sell some now, if it goes higher sell more, etc..
892 2011-02-13 03:41:13 <joe_1> they're going to be worth $3000 in 2 years
893 2011-02-13 03:41:37 <glassresistor> well i've got 100 in the market, at 1.2
894 2011-02-13 03:41:54 <glassresistor> i plan on keeping most till they level out at some higher price
895 2011-02-13 03:42:07 <lfm> good luck
896 2011-02-13 03:42:29 <newsham> you bought 100btc @ $1.2/btc?
897 2011-02-13 03:42:48 <lfm> selling
898 2011-02-13 03:42:52 <glassresistor> but it offers me some confurt to check and see how hard it is to sel them
899 2011-02-13 03:43:01 <dissipate_> confurt?
900 2011-02-13 03:43:03 <dissipate_> hehe
901 2011-02-13 03:43:10 <glassresistor> newsham: nah im selling 100 btc for 1.2$
902 2011-02-13 03:43:12 <glassresistor> each
903 2011-02-13 03:43:21 <glassresistor> that looked like the market price
904 2011-02-13 03:43:46 <glassresistor> any clue how long itll take before i get a bite?
905 2011-02-13 03:43:54 <newsham> market price right now is 1.05/1.075
906 2011-02-13 03:44:10 <newsham> i would guess you get a fill on your order within the next 2 weeks
907 2011-02-13 03:45:16 <glassresistor> newsham: wow thats a long time
908 2011-02-13 03:45:21 <glassresistor> https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/home/trends/
909 2011-02-13 03:45:29 <glassresistor> that says its around 1.2
910 2011-02-13 03:45:33 <newsham> you're talking about a 20% rise in price.
911 2011-02-13 03:45:37 <newsham> 2 weeks sounds really fast to me :)
912 2011-02-13 03:45:43 <lfm> it might be in two min too
913 2011-02-13 03:46:03 <glassresistor> yeah im looking for an average honestly
914 2011-02-13 03:46:35 <lfm> if you wanted to seel quick Id go for 1.05 or so
915 2011-02-13 03:47:18 <hacim> $15 difference
916 2011-02-13 03:47:20 <lfm> you can always change em anyway if they dont go
917 2011-02-13 03:48:06 <newsham> put in sell @ 1.15, when it fills, put in buy @ 1.05.  rinse and repeat.
918 2011-02-13 03:49:52 <lfm> ;;bc,bcm
919 2011-02-13 03:49:54 <gribble> [{"pair": "BCUSD[MoneyBookers]", "ask": 0.0, "bid": 0.37, "time": 1297572587}, {"pair": "BCGAU[Pecunix]", "ask": 0.0, "bid": 0.0045999999999999999, "time": 1297572587}, {"pair": "BCUSD[PayPal]", "ask": 1.2, "bid": 1.0600000000000001, "time": 1297572587}, {"pair": "BCUSD[LibertyReserve]", "ask": 1.1000000000000001, "bid": 1.1000000000000001, "time": 1297572587}]
920 2011-02-13 03:50:17 <lfm> so ya 1.20 is the lowest ask atm
921 2011-02-13 03:50:56 <lfm> but see 1.06 bid is what you go for if you want to sell now
922 2011-02-13 03:51:40 <lfm> if you're set on paypal at least
923 2011-02-13 03:55:29 <midnightmagic_> bid for $1.10? pretty neat.
924 2011-02-13 03:56:19 <glassresistor> midnightmagic_: ?
925 2011-02-13 03:56:41 <midnightmagic_> LR
926 2011-02-13 03:56:59 <lfm> market must be closed or that would go thru
927 2011-02-13 03:57:51 <midnightmagic_> glassresistor: there's someone bidding for $1.10 for libertyreserve dollars. that's a good price considering on mtgox it's going right now for.. $1.05 or $1.07 or so.
928 2011-02-13 04:03:53 <afed> speaking of that
929 2011-02-13 04:04:02 <afed> what's everyone's favourite exchanger of liberty reserve
930 2011-02-13 04:04:22 <newsham> bitcoinmorpheus does LR right?
931 2011-02-13 04:05:30 <joe_1> no
932 2011-02-13 04:07:04 <joe_1> but morepheus accepts money orders, checks, and paypal
933 2011-02-13 04:11:14 <joe_1> 1. write a check to bitcoinmorpheus for 500 coins 2. after 179 days dispute the check 3. profit
934 2011-02-13 04:11:27 <afed> yawn
935 2011-02-13 04:12:01 <joe_1> afed are you still looking for opnions on the best LR exchanger?
936 2011-02-13 04:12:04 <newsham> :(
937 2011-02-13 04:12:05 <afed> joe_1: sure
938 2011-02-13 04:12:13 <newsham> 4. morpheus jacks up rates or closes shop
939 2011-02-13 04:12:16 <newsham> 5. suck
940 2011-02-13 04:12:19 <joe_1> afed: getemoney.com
941 2011-02-13 04:12:22 <afed> joe_1: i just cashed out some LR and it took a while but i got a check and it seems ok
942 2011-02-13 04:12:30 <afed> joe_1: how is getemoney?
943 2011-02-13 04:12:37 <joe_1> there good
944 2011-02-13 04:12:48 <afed> any others?
945 2011-02-13 04:13:00 <joe_1> none that i've tried
946 2011-02-13 04:13:16 <afed> but no problems with them
947 2011-02-13 04:13:39 <afed> that's who i used
948 2011-02-13 04:13:48 <afed> but i've only cashed out once so far
949 2011-02-13 04:14:06 <joe_1> mail takes a long, long, long, long, long, long, long time
950 2011-02-13 04:14:29 <joe_1> but the transactions are eventually successful
951 2011-02-13 04:14:39 <afed> handwritten check @_@
952 2011-02-13 04:15:03 <afed> just some guy arbitraging between LR and real money
953 2011-02-13 04:15:14 <afed> nice business though
954 2011-02-13 04:15:41 <glassresistor> midnightmagic_: i don't have a liberty reserver account
955 2011-02-13 04:15:59 <midnightmagic_> glassresistor: it's easy to set up. i think you don't even have to show them any ID.
956 2011-02-13 04:16:01 <joe_1> well the trouble is he's doing well. there's just not enough people doing exchanging because of laws. we're basically paying these people to break the law for us.
957 2011-02-13 04:16:31 <afed> no one is doing anything illegal
958 2011-02-13 04:16:49 <afed> what the hell are you talking about
959 2011-02-13 04:16:49 <joe_1> yes and no. it's not technically illegal, but the government would love to shut these people down for money laundering anyway.
960 2011-02-13 04:17:02 <joe_1> look at egold. nothing illegal there either.
961 2011-02-13 04:17:25 <afed> isn't egold operating again?
962 2011-02-13 04:17:32 <afed> and all the other operators took the same lesson
963 2011-02-13 04:17:38 <afed> strict record keeping and accountability
964 2011-02-13 04:18:02 <afed> for my part, i have laundered no money or commited any other crime
965 2011-02-13 04:18:09 <afed> anyone with a court order to see my records may verify that
966 2011-02-13 04:18:23 <glassresistor> on the market. if someone makes a bid for 200 at 1.06 and i have a ask for 100 at 1.06
967 2011-02-13 04:18:26 <joe_1> patriot act = no court order needed
968 2011-02-13 04:18:27 <glassresistor> will that go through
969 2011-02-13 04:18:47 <afed> good luck sending a national security letter to "bitcoin"
970 2011-02-13 04:19:03 <joe_1> no, i would send the letter to your exchanger
971 2011-02-13 04:19:40 <afed> that wouldn't be the complete chain of transactions
972 2011-02-13 04:20:20 <afed> the only way to get the bitcoin transactions is from me, and even the patriot act doesn't circumvent due process for that
973 2011-02-13 04:20:46 <glassresistor> the goverments would attack the currency exchangers first, if paypal/liberty/etc. have good enough lawyers then they will probably go after freenode, then the websites facilitating it
974 2011-02-13 04:21:08 <afed> stop pretending you're doing something wrong
975 2011-02-13 04:21:17 <newsham> Congress may establish uniform laws relating to naturalization and bankruptcy. It may also coin money, regulate the value of American or foreign currency and punish counterfeiters. Congress may fix the standards of weights and measures.