1 2011-02-16 00:00:12 <theymos> xelister: What data?
  2 2011-02-16 00:00:45 <bk128> phantomcircuit: is there a way to prevent this attack?
  3 2011-02-16 00:01:25 <phantomcircuit> theymos, google slow loris
  4 2011-02-16 00:01:50 <phantomcircuit> bk128, yes, you simply set your own sndbuf to be relatively small and then from any peers that fill it
  5 2011-02-16 00:02:01 <phantomcircuit> theymos, and yes it is >:)
  6 2011-02-16 00:02:47 <theymos> Bitcoin should require proof-of-work on connect.
  7 2011-02-16 00:03:09 <bk128> phantomcircuit: think that'll be patched in .21?
  8 2011-02-16 00:03:22 <phantomcircuit> bk128, how would i know?
  9 2011-02-16 00:03:31 <bk128> lol I thought you did some of the dev
 10 2011-02-16 00:06:56 <nanotube> theymos: haha interesting idea.
 11 2011-02-16 00:07:26 <nanotube> theymos: but you need to open a socket in order to send it. so it's still vulnerable to the 'open a bunch of sockets' attack.
 12 2011-02-16 00:08:09 <phantomcircuit> nanotube, that's pretty easy to defend against, simply limit the number of connections/unique ips
 13 2011-02-16 00:08:27 <theymos> You can use -maxconnections to limit the number of connections.
 14 2011-02-16 00:08:54 <afed> any estimates on what bitcoins might cost when the difficulty goes to 33k?
 15 2011-02-16 00:09:21 <nanotube> afed: price is not directly attached to dificulty
 16 2011-02-16 00:09:42 <afed> nanotube: true
 17 2011-02-16 00:09:47 <afed> but i sense that pattern
 18 2011-02-16 00:09:47 <nanotube> phantomcircuit: aw, so cute! :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_loris (but what does it have to do with network attacks) :)
 19 2011-02-16 00:09:47 <phantomcircuit> theymos, that ironically makes the situation worse
 20 2011-02-16 00:09:58 <afed> rate of generation slows down, fewer coins to buy
 21 2011-02-16 00:10:02 <phantomcircuit> nanotube, you need to brush up on your googlefu ;)
 22 2011-02-16 00:10:22 <nanotube> afed: total generation is targeted to 7200 blocks per day, regardless of difficulty.
 23 2011-02-16 00:10:38 <theymos> You wouldn't want to hold the connection open while waiting for proof-of-work.
 24 2011-02-16 00:10:42 <nanotube> rising difficulty just means there's more total people mining.
 25 2011-02-16 00:11:01 <nanotube> phantomcircuit: yea i know, was just funny how first hit was a cute critter. ;)
 26 2011-02-16 00:11:09 <Cusipzzz> 7200 coins per day.. 7200 blocks, inflation city :)
 27 2011-02-16 00:11:28 <nanotube> Cusipzzz: hahaha yea, coins, not blocks
 28 2011-02-16 00:16:49 <bk128> slush: just tried signing up.  after verifying email and trying to log in it says my username/ pass don't match.  tried resetting it twice and using different passwords
 29 2011-02-16 00:17:18 <phantomcircuit> yes as i suspect
 30 2011-02-16 00:17:23 <phantomcircuit> this attack works perfectly
 31 2011-02-16 00:17:35 <phantomcircuit> i could trivially DDoS the entire network from my DSL connection
 32 2011-02-16 00:17:37 <phantomcircuit> kthx
 33 2011-02-16 00:17:43 <phantomcircuit> bbl
 34 2011-02-16 00:19:03 <bk128> slush: nevermind /facepalm
 35 2011-02-16 00:19:12 <bk128> using email in the username field
 36 2011-02-16 00:20:12 <xelister> about blocks
 37 2011-02-16 00:20:14 <xelister> e.g. http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/00000000000201905fdc60d46e74ad3adeaae6ced8f4c64b2036ceb5e0a0d0cc
 38 2011-02-16 00:20:35 <xelister> the blocks travel the network (TCP) as binary right?  the blockexplorer decodes it for view?
 39 2011-02-16 00:20:42 <theymos> Right.
 40 2011-02-16 00:21:03 <xelister> although probably crypto is added by the p2p layer even in normal bitcoin?
 41 2011-02-16 00:21:09 <dirtyfilthy> nope
 42 2011-02-16 00:21:14 <xelister> just pure text? omg
 43 2011-02-16 00:21:33 <afed> what purpose would crypto serve
 44 2011-02-16 00:21:33 <dirtyfilthy> all the transactions are public anyway
 45 2011-02-16 00:21:34 <xelister> so all ISPs, GOVs and some neighbours know our transactions
 46 2011-02-16 00:21:41 <xelister> what about TX ?
 47 2011-02-16 00:21:46 <dirtyfilthy> it's all in the block chain
 48 2011-02-16 00:21:48 <xelister> they travel as text too?
 49 2011-02-16 00:21:54 <afed> if that crap was encrypted, how would YOU decrypt it?
 50 2011-02-16 00:22:07 <xelister> yeah but before it ends up in block chain it ravels freelty to reach miners that will put it into chains
 51 2011-02-16 00:22:13 <dirtyfilthy> yeh
 52 2011-02-16 00:22:15 <dirtyfilthy> point being
 53 2011-02-16 00:22:18 <dirtyfilthy> ?
 54 2011-02-16 00:22:21 <luke-jr_> xelister: all TX are public in the end, no matter how you send it
 55 2011-02-16 00:22:26 <xelister> afed: p2p could use encyption just on public layer
 56 2011-02-16 00:22:38 <afed> xelister: it's all public
 57 2011-02-16 00:22:50 <afed> anyone could just decrypt the traffic
 58 2011-02-16 00:22:50 <xelister> luke-jr_: but TX in travel have an IP associated with them. in blockchain they do not
 59 2011-02-16 00:22:57 <xelister> thats why it is pseudonymous
 60 2011-02-16 00:23:08 <afed> you're trolling me
 61 2011-02-16 00:23:12 <xelister> get a clue
 62 2011-02-16 00:23:15 <afed> stop trolling me by pretending to be stupid
 63 2011-02-16 00:23:23 <luke-jr_> xelister: sorry, but he has a clue
 64 2011-02-16 00:23:34 <dirtyfilthy> tx in travel? eh not following
 65 2011-02-16 00:23:36 <luke-jr_> xelister: it is impossible to encrypt a p2p network like this
 66 2011-02-16 00:23:37 <xelister> TX in flight over TCP is of course associated with an IP.   TX in published block chain does not have IP associated
 67 2011-02-16 00:23:50 <xelister> theymos: back me up, these noobs troll me =)
 68 2011-02-16 00:23:59 <dirtyfilthy> okaaaay... but you're rebroadcasting tx's all over the show anyway
 69 2011-02-16 00:24:20 <xelister> dirtyfilthy: yeah but ISP of the originator of TX will know that this TX is associated with given IP
 70 2011-02-16 00:24:40 <luke-jr_> xelister: there is nothing anyone can do about that.
 71 2011-02-16 00:24:45 <xelister> and could sell this info say to IRS
 72 2011-02-16 00:24:51 <xelister> luke-jr_: sure there is
 73 2011-02-16 00:24:54 <xelister> I can do something about it
 74 2011-02-16 00:24:56 <dirtyfilthy> you could negotiate keys on the fly
 75 2011-02-16 00:24:59 <dirtyfilthy> he's right about that
 76 2011-02-16 00:25:03 <xelister> also someone did sometihng about it by transporting over TOR
 77 2011-02-16 00:25:05 <luke-jr_> dirtyfilthy: then the ISP just needs to do MITM
 78 2011-02-16 00:25:14 <xelister> luke-jr_: TOR
 79 2011-02-16 00:25:20 <luke-jr_> xelister: prove TOR works
 80 2011-02-16 00:25:20 <xelister> ISP can suck my balls
 81 2011-02-16 00:25:27 <xelister> luke-jr_: wikileaks
 82 2011-02-16 00:25:29 <dirtyfilthy> prove it doesn't?
 83 2011-02-16 00:25:31 <dirtyfilthy> :P
 84 2011-02-16 00:25:36 <luke-jr_> wikileaks is proof it doesn't.
 85 2011-02-16 00:25:41 <xelister> "<luke-jr_> xelister: prove TOR works" lol ?
 86 2011-02-16 00:26:00 <xelister> yes TOR is not unbreakable.   Also, yes, tor DOES work, duuh.
 87 2011-02-16 00:26:29 <xelister> well anyway, so default naked bitcoin is even more vulnearable then I thought >_>  I assumed some kind of crypto on transport layer
 88 2011-02-16 00:26:33 <johyn> hi all
 89 2011-02-16 00:26:41 <xelister> yes it can be mitm'ed, but for example this is a legal problem
 90 2011-02-16 00:26:53 <xelister> while passive listening by ISP is easy and cheap and hard to sue for
 91 2011-02-16 00:27:03 <luke-jr_> xelister: you're trying to do something illegal, so what does it matter?
 92 2011-02-16 00:27:04 <xelister> and undetectable
 93 2011-02-16 00:27:06 <johyn> is there a channel where i can ask people to order me a pizza for bitcoins
 94 2011-02-16 00:27:10 <tibano> so, i followed bk128
 95 2011-02-16 00:27:16 <tibano> that walkthrough
 96 2011-02-16 00:27:19 <xelister> johyn: I could if you are in poland =)
 97 2011-02-16 00:27:37 <bk128> tibano: I haven't set up gpu's yet.  I have 3 5870's arriving on friday though
 98 2011-02-16 00:27:46 <johyn> i wish i was in poland
 99 2011-02-16 00:27:47 <tibano> so
100 2011-02-16 00:27:49 <tibano> ?
101 2011-02-16 00:27:52 <johyn> i'm in california, and broke
102 2011-02-16 00:28:02 <xelister> luke-jr_: if it is illegal, it DOES matter is it detectable&provable (tempering with packets) or totally unproable (passive sniffing)
103 2011-02-16 00:28:09 <johyn> but i got a good fitty bucks in bitocins
104 2011-02-16 00:28:16 <bk128> tibano: is it working?
105 2011-02-16 00:28:19 <tibano> ah
106 2011-02-16 00:28:21 <tibano> well
107 2011-02-16 00:28:26 <tibano> i set the batch file
108 2011-02-16 00:28:30 <tibano> and it's communicating
109 2011-02-16 00:28:31 <xelister> johyn: sorry not me. but other people for sure. also try #bitcoin-mining.  please say back how it went :)
110 2011-02-16 00:28:39 <tibano> but there seems to be some kind of incomplete error
111 2011-02-16 00:28:50 <xelister> theymos: are you here
112 2011-02-16 00:29:08 <bk128> tibano: you might try the forums or #bitcoin-discussion
113 2011-02-16 00:29:35 <xelister> what format you propose to pack sevearl blocks and transactions into a file (for freenet transport)? binary + added headers of size?  like:  size,<data,data...data>, size,<data,data...data>,  ? or .tar ?  or .. ?
114 2011-02-16 00:31:56 <xelister> the "hash" from block explorer like http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/00000000000201905fdc60d46e74ad3adeaae6ced8f4c64b2036ceb5e0a0d0cc   is the thing that nicelly identifies an uniquie block globally, right?
115 2011-02-16 00:32:23 <dirtyfilthy> yep
116 2011-02-16 00:32:37 <dirtyfilthy> that hash is actually reversed btw
117 2011-02-16 00:33:02 <xelister> dirtyfilthy: ah right, damn indians ;)
118 2011-02-16 00:33:22 <xelister> what sounds like better idea to pack several blocks for transportation?
119 2011-02-16 00:33:25 <xelister> .tar them
120 2011-02-16 00:33:33 <dirtyfilthy> i don't know why every site reverses them
121 2011-02-16 00:33:36 <xelister> or put them into a blob file of:  size,data,size,data...
122 2011-02-16 00:35:27 <xelister> endianess!!! finally YOU CAN DECIDE! woo
123 2011-02-16 00:35:45 <xelister> you want big endian or little endian?  you decide =)  for a bitcoin file transport format
124 2011-02-16 00:35:54 <xelister> *bitcoin over freenet transport
125 2011-02-16 00:37:23 <xelister> noone? ok little it is
126 2011-02-16 00:37:30 <luke-jr_> xelister: um, no. if it's illegal, it doesn't matter how they enforce it.
127 2011-02-16 00:38:00 <tibano> anyone know why i'm getting this error? ------>http://pastebin.com/QgFCsUHu
128 2011-02-16 00:39:16 <tibano> trying to run python OpenCL
129 2011-02-16 00:39:42 <luke-jr_> xelister: octets should flow in the same direction as bits.
130 2011-02-16 00:39:48 <luke-jr_> xelister: in any case, use network byte order
131 2011-02-16 00:41:55 <xelister> luke-jr_: yeah but if you can easier detect it, then it is better, then if you are unalbe to detec  the attack
132 2011-02-16 00:42:20 <luke-jr_> xelister: no, because you should be prosecuted for breaking the law.
133 2011-02-16 00:42:33 <luke-jr_> anything that makes it easier for you to get away with it, is a bad thing
134 2011-02-16 00:43:32 <theymos> xelister: The blkxxx.dat files are just concatenated binary blocks, IIRC.
135 2011-02-16 00:45:31 <xelister> theymos: I would like to add there  size, data??N, size, data??X structure, terminated by size=0; size is 4 octet integer.   sounds good? Easy to parse
136 2011-02-16 00:45:52 <xelister> e.g. easier to splite the file without fully parsing-understanging the format of blocks
137 2011-02-16 00:47:09 <dirtyfilthy> store every block as a file under it's hash name, split into directories by first 2 hex digits of hash,  then tar?
138 2011-02-16 00:47:25 <dirtyfilthy> no need to even parse a file then
139 2011-02-16 00:47:29 <xelister> luke-jr_: huh?  In this scenario the watcher (e.g. ISP) is the attacker. Also "you should be prosecuted for breaking the law" is fucking stupid. During 1940-1944 it was 'illegal' to help jews avoid genocide
140 2011-02-16 00:47:58 <xelister> dirtyfilthy: but then you must implement a tar decoder to operate on such blocks
141 2011-02-16 00:48:11 <bk128> if my gpu supports CUDA, will it support opencl mining?  (it's on this page http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_gpus.html)
142 2011-02-16 00:48:17 <dirtyfilthy> this is true, i'm assuming your OS provides this
143 2011-02-16 00:48:41 <xelister> well there is an http://www.feep.net/libtar/#Features
144 2011-02-16 00:48:50 <xelister> I assume it is easy to use
145 2011-02-16 00:48:58 <ntosme2> bk128: it should
146 2011-02-16 00:49:12 <xelister> or just write own primitive format...
147 2011-02-16 00:49:20 <luke-jr_> xelister: that's a "law" the government lacked the authority to make
148 2011-02-16 00:49:27 <bk128> ntosme2: thanks.  trying it out on my macbook pro
149 2011-02-16 00:49:43 <luke-jr_> xelister: governments have authority to tax
150 2011-02-16 00:49:56 <xelister> luke-jr_: german government fully legally made it illegal to help jews avoid genocide.  This does not make it a good thing
151 2011-02-16 00:50:23 <luke-jr_> xelister: the german government did not have the authority pass such a law.
152 2011-02-16 00:50:31 <xelister> if you think law == good   or  law == just  then you are so stupid I do not know where to begin explaining it.
153 2011-02-16 00:50:42 <xelister> luke-jr_: why not? Even hitler was legally ellected
154 2011-02-16 00:50:57 <luke-jr_> xelister: because the authority of the State is not unlimited.
155 2011-02-16 00:51:03 <xelister> luke-jr_: or USA law of allowing Slavery
156 2011-02-16 00:51:13 <xelister> or current Islamic laws to kill for stupid shit
157 2011-02-16 00:51:16 <luke-jr_> there is nothing immoral about slavery. another difference.
158 2011-02-16 00:51:21 <xelister> lol
159 2011-02-16 00:51:33 <xelister> you are seriously trolling =)  nothing immoral about slavery
160 2011-02-16 00:51:53 <luke-jr_> xelister: in many ways, modern capitalist employment is worse than slavery
161 2011-02-16 00:52:10 <luke-jr_> slave abuse is another matter
162 2011-02-16 00:52:10 <xelister> perhaps, this does not make slavery any better
163 2011-02-16 00:53:03 <xelister> I ment slavery as a fucking slavery, not as fucking ponytails and reinbows Miss Marry and 5 happy Niggers in the medow happily working togeather in the cornfield, wtf do not waste my time, you know what I ment... talk seriously if you ahvea  point to make
164 2011-02-16 00:54:51 <xelister> if you think always law is good then go to islamic country and kiss your girlfriend, happy getting jailed + 100 whips by your 'good' and in fact lawfull law&court
165 2011-02-16 00:55:37 <luke-jr_> I didn't say all law is good.
166 2011-02-16 00:55:48 <luke-jr_> But any law that the State has the authority to make must be obeyed.
167 2011-02-16 00:55:51 <luke-jr_> good or not.
168 2011-02-16 00:55:52 <xelister> bk128: yea. what gpu
169 2011-02-16 00:56:01 <xelister> luke-jr_: of what fucking State
170 2011-02-16 00:56:13 <xelister> by your arrogance level, I assume you're an americafag?
171 2011-02-16 00:56:32 <luke-jr_> I live in America, but I hate its government. Does that answer your question?
172 2011-02-16 00:56:44 <xelister> so why say to obey law of the state
173 2011-02-16 00:56:52 <ZenMondo> So Rosa Parks was wrong for not giving up her seat? Those black people sitting at the Lunch Counter were wrong?  The Lovings were wrong for getting married?
174 2011-02-16 00:57:01 <luke-jr_> the State has authority from God to make laws, and we are morally obliged to obey them.
175 2011-02-16 00:57:13 <luke-jr_> ZenMondo: if it was illegal, yes.
176 2011-02-16 00:57:14 <xelister> luke-jr_: which god? *facepalm*
177 2011-02-16 00:57:18 <luke-jr_> xelister: the one true God
178 2011-02-16 00:57:58 <dirtyfilthy> who authoritahed who in the what now?
179 2011-02-16 00:58:17 <ZenMondo> If you are in America then surely you know the establishment clause of the First Amendment. God has nothing to do with government.
180 2011-02-16 00:58:37 <luke-jr_> ZenMondo: "freedom of religion" is condemned heresy, and one of the major flaws in the US Constitution
181 2011-02-16 00:58:58 <luke-jr_> as is "separation of Church and State", since the State is subject to the Church
182 2011-02-16 00:59:19 <ZenMondo> WHICH church?
183 2011-02-16 00:59:27 <ZenMondo> I suppose YOURS.
184 2011-02-16 00:59:30 <dirtyfilthy> show working plz
185 2011-02-16 00:59:39 <luke-jr_> ZenMondo: the Church founded by God ofc
186 2011-02-16 01:00:02 <luke-jr_> the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church
187 2011-02-16 01:00:28 <ZenMondo> God is a fiction. There is no evidence for the existence of any god.
188 2011-02-16 01:00:35 <dirtyfilthy> i'm trying to figure out if this a troll or not
189 2011-02-16 01:00:39 <luke-jr_> ZenMondo: God's existence is a proven fact, and also obvious.
190 2011-02-16 01:00:45 <xelister> dirtyfilthy: that should answer it
191 2011-02-16 01:00:51 <ZenMondo> We are venturing into Poe's Law territory
192 2011-02-16 01:00:56 <user117> Hi, all! May be a silly question, but is it possible to write a simple application for just payments without necessarity to download all blocks. I'm talking about phones and other gadges. Tasks are recieve payments and send payments only. As I understand, receiving can be done just by monitoring current block, and sending by sending signed transaction to net. Is it possible to make that?
193 2011-02-16 01:01:23 <dirtyfilthy> yes
194 2011-02-16 01:01:25 <luke-jr_> user117: no, you need the entire block chain to verify the coins exist.
195 2011-02-16 01:01:36 <xelister> user117: you must have a wallet with coins in it.  I suppose you need to know at least this blocks that given you your coins.
196 2011-02-16 01:01:38 <dirtyfilthy> ah you can get the block headers only
197 2011-02-16 01:01:38 <luke-jr_> user117: phones should just remotely access a wallet on a real computer
198 2011-02-16 01:02:22 <ZenMondo> Nowadays phones ARE real computers
199 2011-02-16 01:02:41 <luke-jr_> ZenMondo: then keep a full block chain on it :P
200 2011-02-16 01:03:08 <dirtyfilthy> luke-jr_: that's not tooooo difficult
201 2011-02-16 01:03:32 <luke-jr_> dirtyfilthy: ?
202 2011-02-16 01:03:39 <dirtyfilthy> full block chain minus transactions
203 2011-02-16 01:03:55 <dirtyfilthy> 161k to d/l 2000 blocks approx
204 2011-02-16 01:04:39 <user117> luke-jr_: not me. The Network. For me is enough to see that transaction from my desktop address to phone address is accepted by some nodes. They will check all things for me, not my phone
205 2011-02-16 01:04:40 <dirtyfilthy> so only a few meg for the entire block chain
206 2011-02-16 01:05:08 <xelister> the first block is block #0 or #1 ?
207 2011-02-16 01:05:09 <dirtyfilthy> user117: yeah the problem is you need to be able to handle chain forks
208 2011-02-16 01:05:12 <dirtyfilthy> xelister: 0
209 2011-02-16 01:05:22 <xelister> block #0 is genesis and is hardcoded,  and #1 is hardcoded as well?
210 2011-02-16 01:05:43 <xelister> how to see block #15 in block explorere
211 2011-02-16 01:05:47 <dirtyfilthy> #1 is not hardcoded
212 2011-02-16 01:05:57 <dirtyfilthy> search for 15
213 2011-02-16 01:06:16 <xelister> dirtyfilthy: url?
214 2011-02-16 01:06:28 <xelister> nm
215 2011-02-16 01:06:36 <xelister> http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000839a8e6886ab5951d76f411475428afc90947ee320161bbf18eb6048
216 2011-02-16 01:06:45 <xelister> #0   http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f
217 2011-02-16 01:06:51 <dirtyfilthy> http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000b3322c8c3ef7d2cf6da009a776e6a99ee65ec5a32f3f345712238473
218 2011-02-16 01:07:08 <Syke> http://blockexplorer.com/b/15
219 2011-02-16 01:07:25 <xelister> thx Syke. there should be url like that on main page
220 2011-02-16 01:09:29 <user117> xelister: As I see the usage - I have a big computer with normal client. And phone with minimalistic software. Phone soft can only generate addresses, check transactions for them in current block and send signed transctions. So, I just transfer some coins to phone and use them out of home. I also can generate addresses to accept payments. And I can check if the payment accepted by other nodes. Where is necessarity of all blocks
221 2011-02-16 01:09:52 <phantomcircuit> xelister, adding encryption to the p2p layer wouldn't be trivial
222 2011-02-16 01:12:10 <dirtyfilthy> user117: if the block chain forks, you won't be able to decide which the the correct (highest total work) branch chain to use. storing the block headers is not a problem anyway, it's only a few meg
223 2011-02-16 01:12:33 <dirtyfilthy> user117: though if you can convince me i'm wrong it'd be good to know. i'm working on a phone client
224 2011-02-16 01:12:47 <davex__> luke-jr_, i would have thought being involved with bitcoin would be problematic for a hard-core catholic
225 2011-02-16 01:13:55 <xelister> phantomcircuit: to protect it against mitm you need trust - exchanged IDs over secure channel
226 2011-02-16 01:14:02 <xelister> or
227 2011-02-16 01:14:07 <phantomcircuit> xelister, diffie hellman
228 2011-02-16 01:14:25 <xelister> you just need to take care so that the ID under that you use in encrption layer is not tied to IP (or other IRL ident)
229 2011-02-16 01:14:27 <xelister> so use like tor
230 2011-02-16 01:14:30 <xelister> or freenet or i2p
231 2011-02-16 01:14:36 <xelister> tor transport is working
232 2011-02-16 01:14:40 <phantomcircuit> but yes protecting against mitm you'd need to run a tor like network
233 2011-02-16 01:14:40 <user117> dirtyfilthy: What will be the worst problem with forks? I didn't dig sources a lot, just thinking about small and traffic cheap mobile client.
234 2011-02-16 01:14:44 <xelister> freenet will soon - esp if people add to bounty =)
235 2011-02-16 01:15:47 <xelister> what will be the block number in around end of 2012 someone can calc quickly?
236 2011-02-16 01:15:58 <xelister> 10/h
237 2011-02-16 01:16:20 <xelister> around 200,000
238 2011-02-16 01:17:35 <dirtyfilthy> user117: the worst problem is that your transactions might not be in the block chain everybody is actually using
239 2011-02-16 01:19:32 <luke-jr_> davex__: why?
240 2011-02-16 01:20:03 <bk128> xelister: it's an 8600M GT
241 2011-02-16 01:20:32 <xelister> really it does opencl?
242 2011-02-16 01:20:40 <luke-jr_> bk128: worthless :p
243 2011-02-16 01:20:57 <luke-jr_> bk128: 5.66 MH/s. my CPU can almost do that.
244 2011-02-16 01:21:00 <user117> dirtyfilthy: what if i will monitor the current block? and if it will change, just will repeat transaction.
245 2011-02-16 01:21:04 <bk128> xelister: http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_gpus.html
246 2011-02-16 01:21:32 <bk128> what CPU can do that?  I thought it'd be close to worthless.
247 2011-02-16 01:21:36 <davex__> luke-jr_, just the anti-government bent of it
248 2011-02-16 01:21:48 <luke-jr_> bk128: i5-2400
249 2011-02-16 01:21:59 <luke-jr_> davex__: it's not inherently anti-government.
250 2011-02-16 01:22:17 <bk128> I need to upgrade my main computer.  running a 2.4ghz c2 duo
251 2011-02-16 01:22:39 <davex__> luke-jr_, true...  well if it gets outlawed by a government, will you stop using it?
252 2011-02-16 01:22:50 <davex__> er i mean the government, not "a" government
253 2011-02-16 01:23:56 <luke-jr_> davex__: I might have to out of obedience, I suppose.
254 2011-02-16 01:24:01 <davex__> hmm...
255 2011-02-16 01:24:05 <luke-jr_> when it happens, I'll ask a priest
256 2011-02-16 01:24:20 <davex__> romans 13 seems to say you should
257 2011-02-16 01:24:33 <dirtyfilthy> user117: hmmm i'm not sure, i need to think about this a bit more and do some napkin working :)
258 2011-02-16 01:25:51 <luke-jr_> davex__: hopefully, the government will simply prosecute bitcoin users who use it to evade taxes
259 2011-02-16 01:26:03 <luke-jr_> in which case, things are fine so long as I report all my income properly
260 2011-02-16 01:26:30 <bk128> or big corporations will use it to evade taxes
261 2011-02-16 01:26:34 <bk128> maybe someday
262 2011-02-16 01:26:54 <andrew12> ;;bc,estimate
263 2011-02-16 01:26:55 <gribble> 34955.41361461
264 2011-02-16 01:27:01 <andrew12> ;;bc,stats
265 2011-02-16 01:27:03 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108375 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 488 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 10 hours, 17 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34955.41361461
266 2011-02-16 01:27:10 <JFK911_> hah 35000
267 2011-02-16 01:27:14 <JFK911_> 50% jump?
268 2011-02-16 01:27:18 <luke-jr_> ;.;
269 2011-02-16 01:27:28 <andrew12> JFK911: what's 26000*2?
270 2011-02-16 01:27:35 <luke-jr_> davex__: my purpose for Bitcoin is to have a Tonal-compatible currency :
271 2011-02-16 01:27:41 <JFK911> andrew12: 100% jump
272 2011-02-16 01:27:42 <bk128> and i'm adding another ghash/sec on friday :)  keeps getting worse.
273 2011-02-16 01:27:43 <andrew12> ..nevermind, misread
274 2011-02-16 01:27:45 <JFK911> ?
275 2011-02-16 01:27:59 <JFK911> it might approach 50%
276 2011-02-16 01:28:12 <andrew12> i read 50% jump as 100% jump because i'm not good with percentages :p
277 2011-02-16 01:28:20 <bk128> ;;bc,calcd 1000000 35000
278 2011-02-16 01:28:20 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 35000, is 1 day, 17 hours, 45 minutes, and 23 seconds
279 2011-02-16 01:28:24 <andrew12> ;;calc 26000*1.5
280 2011-02-16 01:28:25 <gribble> 26,000 * 1.5 = 39,000
281 2011-02-16 01:28:27 <davex__> yeah i'm hoping that too
282 2011-02-16 01:28:31 <andrew12> ;;calc 25000*1.5
283 2011-02-16 01:28:32 <gribble> 25,000 * 1.5 = 37,500
284 2011-02-16 01:28:39 <andrew12> ;;calc 25000*1.4
285 2011-02-16 01:28:39 <gribble> 25,000 * 1.4 = 35,000
286 2011-02-16 01:28:43 <andrew12> that's a bit more accurate
287 2011-02-16 01:29:06 <andrew12> but yes, it is getting close to 50%
288 2011-02-16 01:29:07 <doublec> ;;calc 34955.41361461/25997.87992881
289 2011-02-16 01:29:07 <gribble> 34???955.41361461 / 25???997.87992881 = 1.34454862
290 2011-02-16 01:29:09 <JFK911> Right no point in labourious calculation sfor an estimate.
291 2011-02-16 01:29:14 <JFK911> I just pulled that from my head.
292 2011-02-16 01:29:20 <bk128> hopefully the value of btc keeps increasing at a faster rate than the difficulty
293 2011-02-16 01:29:31 <andrew12> ;;calc [bc,estimate]/[bc,diff]
294 2011-02-16 01:29:32 <gribble> 34,955.41361461 / 25,997.87992881 = 1.34454862
295 2011-02-16 01:29:37 <andrew12> :P
296 2011-02-16 01:29:40 <doublec> hehe
297 2011-02-16 01:29:48 <doublec> I wondered if something like that was possible
298 2011-02-16 01:29:51 <andrew12> ;;math calc [bc,estimate]/[bc,diff]
299 2011-02-16 01:29:52 <gribble> 1.34454862129
300 2011-02-16 01:29:57 <andrew12> doublec: how do you think ;;bc,stats et al works?
301 2011-02-16 01:30:01 <andrew12> ;;help bc,stats
302 2011-02-16 01:30:08 <gribble> (bc,stats <an alias, 0 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo Current Blocks: [bc,blocks] | Current Difficulty: [bc,diff] | Next Difficulty At Block: [bc,nexttarget] | Next Difficulty In: [math calc [bc,nexttarget] - [bc,blocks]] blocks | Next Difficulty In About: [bc,timetonext] | Next Difficulty Estimate: [bc,estimate]".
303 2011-02-16 01:30:13 <doublec> ;;calc 50/[bc,estimate]
304 2011-02-16 01:30:16 <gribble> 50 / 34,955.41361461 = 0.0014303936
305 2011-02-16 01:30:26 <doublec> curious what bitpenny would eventually be paying
306 2011-02-16 01:30:31 <andrew12> bitpenny does 10%
307 2011-02-16 01:30:31 <doublec> ;;calc 45/[bc,estimate]
308 2011-02-16 01:30:31 <user117> dirtyfilthy: as food for thinking - what is the propability to get only one chain of fork from, say, 100 different nodes within 5 minutes? may be it is less than probability of postal loss, so why to bother? And when I send coins to smb. in most cases I can ask if they confirmed.
309 2011-02-16 01:30:32 <gribble> 45 / 34,955.41361461 = 0.00128735424
310 2011-02-16 01:30:41 <andrew12> s/does/keeps/
311 2011-02-16 01:30:47 <bk128> can gribble approximate the total ghash/sec of everyone mining?
312 2011-02-16 01:30:57 <andrew12> bk128: sure, if you know the algorithm :D
313 2011-02-16 01:31:05 <andrew12> ;;apropos bc
314 2011-02-16 01:31:06 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,labs, Alias bc,lbs, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,prob, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, and Alias bc,wiki
315 2011-02-16 01:31:39 <bk128> ;;bc,poolstats
316 2011-02-16 01:31:41 <gribble> {"active_workers": 737, "ghashes_ps": "57.338", "getwork_ps": 344}
317 2011-02-16 01:32:00 <bk128> is that just slush?
318 2011-02-16 01:32:03 <andrew12> yes
319 2011-02-16 01:32:07 <luke-jr_> does anyone use genjix's client?
320 2011-02-16 01:32:11 <andrew12> bitpenny doesn't have stats yet
321 2011-02-16 01:32:17 <andrew12> luke-jr_: genjix's client?
322 2011-02-16 01:32:20 <luke-jr_> yeah
323 2011-02-16 01:32:28 <luke-jr_> spesmilo
324 2011-02-16 01:32:42 <doublec> I hope bitpenny goes public again soon. slush's pool is getting really big. it'd be nice to have another biggish pool to balance it.
325 2011-02-16 01:33:06 <andrew12> doublec: you can mine to http://vps.andrew12.net:4567 which proxies to bitpenny :P
326 2011-02-16 01:33:31 <luke-jr_> andrew12: even when it's down?
327 2011-02-16 01:33:35 <doublec> and gives you money?
328 2011-02-16 01:33:42 <andrew12> luke-jr_: I'm cool enough to be able to use it when it's down
329 2011-02-16 01:33:56 <andrew12> doublec: if I add your ip and bitcoin address to my script, yes
330 2011-02-16 01:34:18 <xelister> what encoding to use
331 2011-02-16 01:34:31 <xelister> to embbed binary inside HTML and ASCII and \n and no-null compatible text format
332 2011-02-16 01:34:53 <doublec> base64?
333 2011-02-16 01:34:54 <dirtyfilthy> uuencode
334 2011-02-16 01:35:16 <andrew12> ascii ones and zeroes
335 2011-02-16 01:35:21 <xelister> which ones...
336 2011-02-16 01:35:51 <andrew12> these ones: 11111
337 2011-02-16 01:36:03 <xelister> base64 or uu
338 2011-02-16 01:36:43 <andrew12> ascii ones and zeroes!
339 2011-02-16 01:39:02 <dirtyfilthy> xelister: it's the same thing
340 2011-02-16 01:39:38 <xelister> lol therea re 10+ variants on base64
341 2011-02-16 01:39:40 <xelister> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base64
342 2011-02-16 01:39:49 <KBme> ;;bc,calcd 442265 25997
343 2011-02-16 01:39:50 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 442265 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 25997, is 2 days, 22 hours, 7 minutes, and 44 seconds
344 2011-02-16 01:40:03 <KBme> oh wow, -f1 makes a huge difference
345 2011-02-16 01:40:07 <KBme> hurray
346 2011-02-16 01:40:40 <afed> ;;bc,stats
347 2011-02-16 01:40:43 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108379 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 484 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 9 hours, 48 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34982.46161615
348 2011-02-16 01:47:52 <foucist> hey guys.. how useful is this http://www.taters.net/btcgc.php  ?
349 2011-02-16 01:48:03 <foucist> it doesn't seem to take into account pooling?
350 2011-02-16 01:48:21 <foucist> or maybe that doesn't matter..
351 2011-02-16 01:48:25 <afed> http://images.4chan.org/b/src/1297823749186.jpg
352 2011-02-16 01:48:30 <afed> /b/ is for bitcoin
353 2011-02-16 01:48:49 <afed> foucist: highly useful thx
354 2011-02-16 01:49:37 <foucist> afed: ok, well if i assume a 5970, and plug in 0.6 Ghz, network size 280, growth 30%.. then basically it hits 400 BTC in 4 months and then tapers off
355 2011-02-16 01:49:50 <foucist> (150 blocks/day being the typical rate i'm told..)
356 2011-02-16 01:50:14 <foucist> so it seems like it really slows down after 4 months from now.. might not produce many BTC at all?
357 2011-02-16 01:50:20 <afed> btc can't really be a constant though
358 2011-02-16 01:50:29 <afed> btc/usd i mean
359 2011-02-16 01:50:54 <foucist> i'm not loking at hte usd part
360 2011-02-16 01:50:58 <foucist> i put $0 in there
361 2011-02-16 01:51:20 <afed> ok
362 2011-02-16 01:51:34 <grubles> kbme: -f1 as in the poclbm flag?
363 2011-02-16 01:52:56 <phantomcircuit> anybody want to see something uh
364 2011-02-16 01:52:57 <phantomcircuit> neat?
365 2011-02-16 01:53:35 <andrew12> sure?
366 2011-02-16 01:53:38 <ntosme2> if it involves a DoS
367 2011-02-16 01:53:48 <phantomcircuit> yeah it does
368 2011-02-16 01:53:57 <phantomcircuit> i just need your ip
369 2011-02-16 01:54:01 <andrew12> heh
370 2011-02-16 01:54:02 <phantomcircuit> (it's not a network DoS)
371 2011-02-16 01:54:09 <ntosme2> I knew you'd say that
372 2011-02-16 01:54:21 <ntosme2> you have my IP
373 2011-02-16 01:54:26 <andrew12> phantomcircuit: explain
374 2011-02-16 01:54:41 <phantomcircuit> can trivially cause cpu 100%
375 2011-02-16 01:54:44 <phantomcircuit> it's neat
376 2011-02-16 01:54:51 <xelister> how long can a chain split be?
377 2011-02-16 01:54:55 <xelister> under normall conditions
378 2011-02-16 01:55:04 <andrew12> xelister: as long as the main chain -1
379 2011-02-16 01:55:09 <xelister> uhm
380 2011-02-16 01:55:12 <ntosme2> phantomcircuit: try me
381 2011-02-16 01:55:14 <xelister> no I mean in practive
382 2011-02-16 01:55:16 <xelister> practice
383 2011-02-16 01:55:29 <andrew12> what do you mean?
384 2011-02-16 01:55:32 <xelister> ArtForz: how long chainsplits you seen longest?
385 2011-02-16 01:55:41 <phantomcircuit> ntosme2, your freenode ip isn't connectable
386 2011-02-16 01:55:44 <xelister> well I suppose splits bigger then say 3 blocks do not happen
387 2011-02-16 01:55:54 <ntosme2> hmm...really
388 2011-02-16 01:55:59 <andrew12> phantomcircuit: try vps.andrew12.net
389 2011-02-16 01:56:01 <phantomcircuit> 8333/tcp filtered unknown
390 2011-02-16 01:56:14 <ntosme2> odd
391 2011-02-16 01:56:20 <ntosme2> will v6 work?
392 2011-02-16 01:56:37 <ntosme2> I thought I had forwarded
393 2011-02-16 01:57:11 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: I never disputed the possibility of DDoS.  I doubt that a DDoS would continue long enough to cause difficulty change.
394 2011-02-16 01:57:22 <jgarzik> for all miners globally
395 2011-02-16 01:58:07 <phantomcircuit> ntosme2, i dont think the client listens on ipv6
396 2011-02-16 01:58:16 <phantomcircuit> andrew12, load average?
397 2011-02-16 01:59:44 <phantomcircuit> andrew12, lol you there?
398 2011-02-16 02:00:45 <andrew12^droid> kill it :x
399 2011-02-16 02:00:48 <phantomcircuit> rofl
400 2011-02-16 02:01:25 <phantomcircuit> for anybody interested that was 2KB/s average after an initial spike of 60KB/s
401 2011-02-16 02:01:49 <andrew12^droid> wtf did i do to screen
402 2011-02-16 02:03:00 <ntosme2> neat
403 2011-02-16 02:03:20 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, so yeah w/o a significant client modification i could probably take down the entire network
404 2011-02-16 02:03:57 <Validus> hmm i wonder for secure transfers you could do a seperate option that states a password both ppl would have to type in with the trade. so one coudlnt reneg on it
405 2011-02-16 02:03:58 <andrew12> heh
406 2011-02-16 02:04:00 <ntosme2> phantomcircuit: well we know who to point at when that happens >_>
407 2011-02-16 02:04:23 <phantomcircuit> ntosme2, at this point anybody in this channel with any skill could replicate what i've done
408 2011-02-16 02:04:28 <andrew12> wheee
409 2011-02-16 02:04:28 <phantomcircuit> mah big fat mouth and all
410 2011-02-16 02:04:50 <andrew12> or you can just do it the old fasioned way and do a syn flood
411 2011-02-16 02:04:50 <ntosme2> hmm, might have to read the backlog heh
412 2011-02-16 02:05:01 <Validus> phantom; your not gonna beat my reputation on being a bastard of speaking minds on irc :P
413 2011-02-16 02:05:39 <jgarzik> there are always plenty of ways to DoS any system.  the relevant question is whether or not it can have any effect on the currency...
414 2011-02-16 02:05:46 <phantomcircuit> Validus, wat
415 2011-02-16 02:05:59 <Validus> u said mah big fat mouth and all. i was more being a smartass
416 2011-02-16 02:06:31 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, actually this was just about someone betting on what the difficulty would be, DoS could trivially modify that number down fast
417 2011-02-16 02:06:43 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: how?
418 2011-02-16 02:06:47 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, also i could use this to capture > 50% of the networks processing power pretty trivially
419 2011-02-16 02:07:07 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: DoS would slow down difficulty change
420 2011-02-16 02:07:43 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, well i assume the person taking bets isn't going by difficulty @ block #
421 2011-02-16 02:08:18 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, either way this is a serious flaw, i could trivially use this to capture > 50% of the networks CPU time (and gpu time) which is the only assumption made by the system
422 2011-02-16 02:08:33 <jgarzik> so IOW, DoS would -not- trivially modify the difficulty/target "down fast" :)
423 2011-02-16 02:09:02 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, well no if wouldn't modify the target down
424 2011-02-16 02:09:11 <phantomcircuit> rather it would keep it from changing
425 2011-02-16 02:09:21 <jgarzik> correct
426 2011-02-16 02:09:30 <phantomcircuit> but really who cares
427 2011-02-16 02:10:02 <phantomcircuit> lowering the target is irrelevent if i can guarantee nobody else finds the next block
428 2011-02-16 02:10:06 <phantomcircuit> irrelevant
429 2011-02-16 02:10:39 <jgarzik> that's the most relevant point.  even if you shut out all other mining nodes other than yourself, you need an enormous amount of GPU power simply to mine the blocks yourself.  therefore... a DoS buys time to fix the problem, and then life resumes.  Just like how other annoying DoS's are dealt with.
430 2011-02-16 02:10:45 <phantomcircuit> andrew12, a syn flood wouldn't work actually
431 2011-02-16 02:11:06 <phantomcircuit> andrew12, that was the first thing i tried, at least on *nix it just turned on syn cookies and that was that
432 2011-02-16 02:11:11 <jgarzik> I'd wager the problem would resolve itself in 24 hours.
433 2011-02-16 02:11:45 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 3 days, 5 hours, 32 minutes, and 30 seconds
434 2011-02-16 02:11:45 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,calc 400000
435 2011-02-16 02:12:35 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, oh and this couldnt be fixed in 24 hours
436 2011-02-16 02:12:47 <phantomcircuit> id wager this will take about a week to fix
437 2011-02-16 02:12:49 <jgarzik> it would probably be fixed more quickly than that
438 2011-02-16 02:13:02 <doublec> the bug would be fixed - people upgrading to latest software would take a while
439 2011-02-16 02:13:11 <phantomcircuit> well ill just DoS the test network off the face of the web and we'll see
440 2011-02-16 02:13:14 <phantomcircuit> xD
441 2011-02-16 02:13:42 <phantomcircuit> doublec, that's just it, this isn't a bug, it's a flaw in the network protocol
442 2011-02-16 02:13:47 <jgarzik> doublec: true.  But I think "major sites" would be back up quickly
443 2011-02-16 02:13:57 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: doesn't matter.  it would get fixed.
444 2011-02-16 02:14:10 <phantomcircuit> hehe now you're tempting me to try it ;)
445 2011-02-16 02:14:11 <jgarzik> possibly without even changing the network protocol...
446 2011-02-16 02:14:13 <doublec> the protocol would just be changed
447 2011-02-16 02:14:28 <doublec> that's the advantage at the moment of having one client
448 2011-02-16 02:14:37 <jgarzik> yep
449 2011-02-16 02:15:12 <doublec> phantomcircuit: it's good that you found it though. More vulnerability finding is good.
450 2011-02-16 02:15:21 <phantomcircuit> so who do i tell?
451 2011-02-16 02:15:31 <phantomcircuit> also im totally not going to fix it
452 2011-02-16 02:15:47 <doublec> there should be a mailing list or something for security issues
453 2011-02-16 02:15:53 <doublec> with trusted people on it
454 2011-02-16 02:16:38 <xelister> how big where biggest chain splits?
455 2011-02-16 02:17:01 <xelister> e.g. you are on normal network (well connected) and you see a chain split... say 3 versions of chain in generation N
456 2011-02-16 02:17:03 <doublec> phantomcircuit: email gavin and or jgarzik?
457 2011-02-16 02:17:05 <xelister> 4 versions in generation N+1
458 2011-02-16 02:17:24 <xelister> 3 in N+2... 3 in N+3...  and in genration N+M back to 1 chain.   what was biggest M?
459 2011-02-16 02:17:27 <xelister> like 5? 10?
460 2011-02-16 02:17:28 <doublec> phantomcircuit: sell it on the forums for 10,000 btc ;)
461 2011-02-16 02:17:30 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: gavin, tcatm, googlus, me, ...
462 2011-02-16 02:17:52 <doublec> (by which I refer to the recent attempt to sell a facebook issue for that much)
463 2011-02-16 02:18:02 <jgarzik> er, dooglus
464 2011-02-16 02:18:15 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, pm?
465 2011-02-16 02:18:33 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: whatever method, it doesn't matter
466 2011-02-16 02:18:47 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: email works too
467 2011-02-16 02:19:11 <jgarzik> email, irc pm, forum pm, IP over avian carrier, ...
468 2011-02-16 02:23:06 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, you see my pm?
469 2011-02-16 02:27:08 <Omni> AFK|What's this attack?
470 2011-02-16 02:31:52 <midnightmagic_> witcoin looks beautiful, good job.
471 2011-02-16 02:33:30 <jgarzik> yes, saw PM and analyzed the attacked.
472 2011-02-16 02:36:22 <noagendamarket> midnightmagic  its a lot easier to look at now :)
473 2011-02-16 02:37:08 <midnightmagic_> andrew: tell us you got a tcpdump. :)
474 2011-02-16 02:55:23 <phantomcircuit> what's with the point of the OP_CHECKSIG stuff?!
475 2011-02-16 02:56:33 <phantomcircuit> ecc
476 2011-02-16 02:59:15 <JunK-Y> ecc?
477 2011-02-16 02:59:59 <phantomcircuit> elliptic curve crypto
478 2011-02-16 03:00:38 <JunK-Y> how its related to SHA?
479 2011-02-16 03:00:44 <jgarzik> it's not
480 2011-02-16 03:01:24 <JunK-Y> i was like: i missed a part here.
481 2011-02-16 03:02:03 <KBme> grubles: DiabloMiner
482 2011-02-16 03:02:12 <KBme> poclbm?
483 2011-02-16 03:02:56 <KBme> anyone know why i have two adresses listed in listreceiveraddress?
484 2011-02-16 03:03:38 <JunK-Y> KBme: cause you get 2 transactions?
485 2011-02-16 03:03:46 <JunK-Y> s/get/got/
486 2011-02-16 03:03:54 <KBme> only one, but i guess so then
487 2011-02-16 03:04:05 <KBme> so for each transaction i will get a new one?
488 2011-02-16 03:04:07 <Validus> it generates a new key you can use if you like
489 2011-02-16 03:04:25 <Validus> but yes you'll get a new one each transaction
490 2011-02-16 03:04:26 <KBme> oh, after each transaction it generates a new receiver address?
491 2011-02-16 03:04:39 <KBme> but not replaced then
492 2011-02-16 03:04:41 <KBme> ?
493 2011-02-16 03:05:09 <Validus> ya, you can recieve on t he same key
494 2011-02-16 03:05:56 <KBme> this is weird, though. i have to manually manage my adresses so it doesn't get out of hand
495 2011-02-16 03:06:06 <KBme> also, to which address is the mined BTC transferred?
496 2011-02-16 03:06:28 <Validus> where your mining at should have instructions where you put it
497 2011-02-16 03:06:35 <Validus> if your on slushs you put it in your account page
498 2011-02-16 03:07:18 <KBme> no, i mine on my own
499 2011-02-16 03:07:22 <KBme> individually
500 2011-02-16 03:07:24 <KBme> no pool
501 2011-02-16 03:07:31 <[Noodles]> generated coins get their own new address
502 2011-02-16 03:07:42 <Netsniper> i'm the unlukiest miner in the world
503 2011-02-16 03:08:11 <Netsniper> havent generated since sept - bro, who has only 10% faster khash rate has mined 4 blocks since then
504 2011-02-16 03:08:21 <Netsniper> !?!?!?
505 2011-02-16 03:08:35 <jgarzik> [Noodles]: unless you have a puddinpop-hacked pool bitcoind.  IIRC, that puts the pool recipients as collectively the output of the generated coin tx.
506 2011-02-16 03:08:59 <doublec> jgarzik: you recall correctly
507 2011-02-16 03:09:03 <[Noodles]> well, yeah, but i somehow doubt KBme has ^.^
508 2011-02-16 03:09:08 <jgarzik> :)
509 2011-02-16 03:10:04 <KBme> nah should be vanilla bitcoind
510 2011-02-16 03:10:21 <KBme> so then i have to transfer the mined BTC to my primary account?
511 2011-02-16 03:10:26 <[Noodles]> no
512 2011-02-16 03:10:28 <KBme> ok
513 2011-02-16 03:10:40 <KBme> Netsniper: nah, your random number generator is off
514 2011-02-16 03:10:47 <KBme> =)
515 2011-02-16 03:11:14 <KBme> i think they improved it in 2.6.26
516 2011-02-16 03:11:15 <KBme> ;)
517 2011-02-16 03:13:34 <afed> it doesn't matter for a fuck what account you keep your btc in
518 2011-02-16 03:13:36 <KBme> so then when I do bitcoind listreceivedbyaddress 0 true it should show me the dough when i have finished a block?
519 2011-02-16 03:13:43 <KBme> afed: yeah
520 2011-02-16 03:13:52 <afed> i suggest making an encrypted virtual machine and running a bitcoin client in that
521 2011-02-16 03:13:58 <afed> generate an address to send all your btc to
522 2011-02-16 03:13:58 <KBme> still, i wouldn't like having tens of different accounts
523 2011-02-16 03:14:06 <afed> then turn that fucking vm off
524 2011-02-16 03:14:16 <afed> keep it on a usb stick disconnected from your machine
525 2011-02-16 03:14:22 <KBme> ???encrypted virtual???
526 2011-02-16 03:14:23 <afed> only bring it up when you need your bitcoins
527 2011-02-16 03:14:26 <KBme> are you serious?
528 2011-02-16 03:14:27 <Validus> or just make a backup
529 2011-02-16 03:14:30 <KBme> what the hell is that?
530 2011-02-16 03:14:33 <Validus> lol
531 2011-02-16 03:14:41 <afed> Validus: the point is that they're offline so they can't be stolen if your computer is compromised
532 2011-02-16 03:14:50 <afed> KBme: vmware workstation will encrypt a vm
533 2011-02-16 03:14:58 <Validus> if you have a backup stored somewhere then your fine
534 2011-02-16 03:15:00 <afed> KBme: or you can just install linux on an encrypted filesystem
535 2011-02-16 03:15:13 <afed> Validus: you're NOT fine if someone steals your wallet and sends your bitcoins away
536 2011-02-16 03:15:21 <afed> your backup will do no good in that case
537 2011-02-16 03:15:26 <KBme> ok, so backup my .bitcoin to a tar.gz and gpg it you mean?
538 2011-02-16 03:15:28 <Validus> um how so
539 2011-02-16 03:15:36 <Validus> i have a backup made after every transaction
540 2011-02-16 03:15:41 <KBme> lol man, encrypted virtual machine
541 2011-02-16 03:15:41 <tcatm> KBme: only backup wallet.dat
542 2011-02-16 03:15:44 <Diablo-D3> yoR: you here?
543 2011-02-16 03:16:03 <KBme> so just gpg walled.dat and that would be it
544 2011-02-16 03:16:08 <KBme> wallet*
545 2011-02-16 03:16:47 <afed> Validus: if someone steals your wallet and makes further  transactions, sending the bitcoins to some address they control, you have no way to repudiate those transactions
546 2011-02-16 03:16:56 <afed> that is the nature of the system
547 2011-02-16 03:17:30 <KBme> yeah, true
548 2011-02-16 03:17:48 <KBme> so you would use a .bitcoin different from the one you usually use
549 2011-02-16 03:17:52 <KBme> like a savings account :)
550 2011-02-16 03:18:05 <KBme> and once in a while transfer the BTC to that
551 2011-02-16 03:18:18 <KBme> then just shut it down, backup to gpg and remove the folder
552 2011-02-16 03:18:19 <KBme> done
553 2011-02-16 03:18:32 <afed> sure
554 2011-02-16 03:18:37 <KBme> s,remove,shred if you're paranoid
555 2011-02-16 03:19:45 <[Noodles]> just dont go online with your savings-wallet, no need to shutdown/backup/shred if your only receiving coins
556 2011-02-16 03:20:20 <KBme> ? how do you transfer money to it if you're not online?
557 2011-02-16 03:20:36 <[Noodles]> you transfer it to an address
558 2011-02-16 03:20:46 <[Noodles]> the key to that address is your wallet
559 2011-02-16 03:20:58 <JunK-Y> all credits pending in the pool are safe, right?
560 2011-02-16 03:21:08 <[Noodles]> you dont need to be online
561 2011-02-16 03:21:17 <KBme> yes but to receive the transfer you need to be online
562 2011-02-16 03:21:21 <[Noodles]> no
563 2011-02-16 03:21:24 <afed> NO
564 2011-02-16 03:21:25 <KBme> well, so it works through a telepathic net i don't know about?
565 2011-02-16 03:21:27 <afed> yes
566 2011-02-16 03:21:29 <KBme> ok
567 2011-02-16 03:21:31 <KBme> good!
568 2011-02-16 03:21:32 <[Noodles]> you only need to be online to send coins, to USE your key
569 2011-02-16 03:21:35 <afed> the blocks of transactions that we're burning all this energy calculating
570 2011-02-16 03:21:56 <Validus> not like your pc probably woudlnt be on anyways
571 2011-02-16 03:22:01 <doublec> when you next go online it'll download the blocks containing the transaction where you receive the money
572 2011-02-16 03:22:02 <afed> did you read the paper?
573 2011-02-16 03:22:17 <KBme> man...
574 2011-02-16 03:22:30 <KBme> he's just saying "when you next go online"...
575 2011-02-16 03:22:34 <KBme> so you do have to go online
576 2011-02-16 03:22:51 <afed> i'm trying not to bite newbies but somewhere along the line the whole mechanism of how this works hasn't been conveyed to you
577 2011-02-16 03:22:54 <KBme> how the hell would you receive a transfer without connecting?
578 2011-02-16 03:23:05 <[Noodles]> no, you have to be online to SEE that you received something
579 2011-02-16 03:23:17 <KBme> ok
580 2011-02-16 03:23:23 <KBme> sorry then, i understand now
581 2011-02-16 03:23:32 <afed> all of these blocks form a record of every transaction that has occured, once a transaction is in a block, it has happened
582 2011-02-16 03:23:37 <[Noodles]> or you could use blockexplorer to check your receiving-address
583 2011-02-16 03:23:42 <doublec> if you're not online you could still go to blockexplorer.com, look up your address, and see that you received the money
584 2011-02-16 03:23:48 <doublec> oops, beaten by [Noodles]
585 2011-02-16 03:23:54 <afed> the client to client activity is passing blocks around so every client is current, and putting new transactions out so they can be incorporated into the next block
586 2011-02-16 03:23:54 <KBme> ok
587 2011-02-16 03:23:58 <ntosme2> where in the source does bitcoin start connecting to other nodes to download blocks? I have yet to find it...
588 2011-02-16 03:24:36 <KBme> so what is the actual secret? it's a private key associated with the account ID?
589 2011-02-16 03:25:02 <KBme> the wallet.dat
590 2011-02-16 03:25:12 <dirtyfilthy> each address is a public / private key pair
591 2011-02-16 03:25:17 <KBme> yep
592 2011-02-16 03:25:20 <KBme> ok, gotcha
593 2011-02-16 03:26:34 <JunK-Y> RSA?
594 2011-02-16 03:29:41 <dirtyfilthy> ECDSA secp256k1
595 2011-02-16 03:34:53 <nanotube> ntosme2: net.cpp is a good start, probably :)
596 2011-02-16 03:35:22 <CIA-57> DiabloMiner: royvanrijn master * r8d91bb1 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Added -x property, adding advanced proxy support - http://bit.ly/hBV2Md
597 2011-02-16 03:35:24 <CIA-57> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r5e72570 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Cleaned up formatting, fixed Unicode - http://bit.ly/gpAgut
598 2011-02-16 03:38:13 <ntosme2> nanotube: ah ConnectNode
599 2011-02-16 03:38:28 <nanotube> :)
600 2011-02-16 03:42:38 <xelister> nanotube: wazup =) rememer we talk long ago how to transport wallets over freenet
601 2011-02-16 03:42:46 <nanotube> xelister: yep yep.
602 2011-02-16 03:42:52 <xelister> nanotube: how cool that now true freenet node could work
603 2011-02-16 03:43:00 <nanotube> so... is bitcoin over freenet now a reality?
604 2011-02-16 03:43:12 <xelister> well, a draft rfc is almost =)
605 2011-02-16 03:43:42 <xelister> actuall implementation can be like... I guess 2 weeks of work (1 person+) + 2 weeks of debugging, bugfixing, stabilizing, getting users etc
606 2011-02-16 03:44:29 <ntosme2> ok correct me if I'm wrong: block generation is done by sequentially passing a nonce through sha256, looking for a value under a certain threshold
607 2011-02-16 03:44:45 <JunK-Y> xelister: wanna read that draft :)
608 2011-02-16 03:44:56 <xelister> you can easly hook into bitcoind code to add own code when bitcoind receives TX and BLOCK from tcp/ip network,  and also make it send accept-include some TX and BLOCKS into own inventory (sort of like getwork/setwork but for tx and blocks not for mining)
609 2011-02-16 03:44:58 <xelister> yea?
610 2011-02-16 03:45:14 <xelister> ntosme2: yea, well 2x sha256 to be exact
611 2011-02-16 03:45:36 <xelister> I wonder would be enough interest to e.g. make bounty for that.
612 2011-02-16 03:45:57 <ntosme2> hmm..just to be extra-hashed
613 2011-02-16 03:46:11 <xelister> full bitcoin over freenet, that would even allow mining (but watch out for -5% -10% less mining due to lag... on the other hand highly anonymous coins could be better ;) is even more
614 2011-02-16 03:46:37 <xelister> JunK-Y: ok will keep you posted =)
615 2011-02-16 03:46:53 <JunK-Y> xelister: not sure i'll be helpful, but im just curious.
616 2011-02-16 03:47:20 <nanotube> xelister: sounds great. i think a forum post could garner some interest.
617 2011-02-16 03:47:24 <KBme> you could also probably drop most of the p2p stuff from bitcoin itself if you have an anonymous p2p network
618 2011-02-16 03:47:27 <nanotube> or maybe a freenet messaging post :)
619 2011-02-16 03:48:53 <foucist> what are the 5970 miners coded in?
620 2011-02-16 03:49:01 <foucist> like ati doesn't really use the cuda stuff, just opencl ?
621 2011-02-16 03:49:04 <foucist> what are the options?
622 2011-02-16 03:49:27 <foucist> for asm or C (lowlevel crap)
623 2011-02-16 03:49:34 <foucist> or other lowlevel stuff?
624 2011-02-16 03:49:58 <foucist> what was that asm-like lang called
625 2011-02-16 03:50:01 <JunK-Y> opencl is better, since it "wrap" cuda, ati stream and cpus.
626 2011-02-16 03:50:09 <Diablo-D3> fail.
627 2011-02-16 03:50:19 <Diablo-D3> opencl is native on both ati and nvidia.
628 2011-02-16 03:50:26 <Diablo-D3> opencl is also native on cpus.
629 2011-02-16 03:51:06 <JunK-Y> only if you have recent drivers, rigth?
630 2011-02-16 03:51:47 <xelister> foucist: most miners are opencl, yes
631 2011-02-16 03:51:55 <xelister> JunK-Y: sdk 2.1
632 2011-02-16 03:52:01 <xelister> btw, ATI SUCKS COCKS IN HELL
633 2011-02-16 03:52:11 <xelister> watch out for ati drivers they are all shit
634 2011-02-16 03:52:28 <xelister> unfortunatelly, nvidia is sloooooow so we are left with radeon and their crappy drivers
635 2011-02-16 03:52:42 <KBme> what is paytaxfee?
636 2011-02-16 03:53:07 <xelister> KBme: pay 0.01 for example per transfer and in return your transaction will complete as fast as usuall even when network would be spammed
637 2011-02-16 03:53:11 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: your question makes no sense.
638 2011-02-16 03:53:25 <KBme> oh I see
639 2011-02-16 03:53:32 <KBme> it's some sort of "guarantee"
640 2011-02-16 03:53:45 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: ati's compiler produces IL for the assembler, nvidia's compiler reads both opencl and cuda, and produces IL for their assembler
641 2011-02-16 03:53:54 <KBme> so if i make it higher, the transactions are more likely to complete faster?
642 2011-02-16 03:53:56 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: and ati has an IL compiler for x86.
643 2011-02-16 03:54:01 <nanotube> KBme: see ,,(bc,wiki transaction fees)
644 2011-02-16 03:54:02 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees | Dec 19, 2010 ... Transaction fees may be included with any transfer of bitcoins from one address to another. At the moment, many transactions are typically ...
645 2011-02-16 03:54:11 <KBme> thanks
646 2011-02-16 03:54:15 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: ibm also has two different impls, one for POWER, one for cell SPEs
647 2011-02-16 03:54:24 <nanotube> KBme: at the current rate of tx on the network... fees don't gain you anything in processing speed.
648 2011-02-16 03:54:36 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: so Im not sure where you get "wrap"
649 2011-02-16 03:54:46 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: its native machine code for all platforms involved.
650 2011-02-16 03:54:52 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: opencl on ps3?
651 2011-02-16 03:55:06 <Diablo-D3> yes, and its slow
652 2011-02-16 03:55:29 <JunK-Y> it was more in a "it abstracts" way.
653 2011-02-16 03:55:30 <lfm> ATI has CAL and OPenCL
654 2011-02-16 03:55:34 <KBme> meaning that networks are fast and the p2p overlay is working pretty well?
655 2011-02-16 03:55:47 <Diablo-D3> lfm: CAL is no longer being worked on, however
656 2011-02-16 03:55:57 <Diablo-D3> lfm: they're only supporting it due to support contracts
657 2011-02-16 03:56:11 <lfm> cool
658 2011-02-16 03:56:17 <Diablo-D3> CAL isnt exactly a real language either
659 2011-02-16 03:56:33 <Diablo-D3> its pretty close to just being IL as an assembly language
660 2011-02-16 03:56:37 <JunK-Y> ya, ive read all man-hours will be on opencl instead of CAL
661 2011-02-16 03:56:37 <lfm> AL means assembler language dont it?
662 2011-02-16 03:57:17 <Diablo-D3> compute abstraction laye
663 2011-02-16 03:57:19 <Diablo-D3> *layer
664 2011-02-16 03:57:26 <lfm> o ok
665 2011-02-16 03:57:48 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: thx for all those clarifications.
666 2011-02-16 03:59:28 <JunK-Y> off-topic question, do you know any equivalent to gpu-z, but for linux?
667 2011-02-16 04:00:19 <JFK911> lspci
668 2011-02-16 04:00:34 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: hurr, no
669 2011-02-16 04:00:39 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: there isnt one
670 2011-02-16 04:01:08 <JunK-Y> JFK911: i wanna see temperature.
671 2011-02-16 04:01:54 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: btw, the only people who use CAL are those people who really do want to bypass the compiler
672 2011-02-16 04:02:06 <JFK911> i heard lm-sensors has support for some, but i've never personally gotten it to work, JunK-Y
673 2011-02-16 04:02:17 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: gpu-z queries the gpu about features it supports
674 2011-02-16 04:02:24 <Diablo-D3> its otherwise useless and pointless
675 2011-02-16 04:02:27 <JunK-Y> JFK911: it works for cpu, but not for gpu
676 2011-02-16 04:02:46 <JFK911> JunK-Y: right.  i heard of people getting gpu temps thru it.  but idk how.
677 2011-02-16 04:02:55 <Diablo-D3> if you want temps, aticonfig --odgt
678 2011-02-16 04:03:17 <luke-jr_> http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/spesmilo
679 2011-02-16 04:04:16 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: im on windows now, i'll give a try tomorrow
680 2011-02-16 04:04:18 <JunK-Y> thanks
681 2011-02-16 04:05:19 <Diablo-D3> windows's drivers already do it ;)
682 2011-02-16 04:05:26 <JunK-Y> im waiting for http://www.amazon.ca/Opencl-Programming-Guide-Aaftab-Munshi/dp/0321749642/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1297832677&sr=8-2
683 2011-02-16 04:05:33 <Diablo-D3> its in the control panel on the overclocking tab
684 2011-02-16 04:05:41 <JFK911> the cpuid thing will show gpu temps
685 2011-02-16 04:05:44 <Diablo-D3> heh, those opencl books are useless
686 2011-02-16 04:05:50 <JFK911> the ati catalyst panel is trash
687 2011-02-16 04:05:58 <JFK911> if the gpu is busy mining the whole panel is frozen
688 2011-02-16 04:06:04 <Diablo-D3> you dont need anything but the reference api pdf
689 2011-02-16 04:07:43 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: im pretty new at gpu programming
690 2011-02-16 04:09:18 <luke-jr_> JunK-Y: do a CAL miner so I can use free software drivers :D
691 2011-02-16 04:09:58 <JunK-Y> luke-jr_: sadly im too lame for that now :)
692 2011-02-16 04:10:03 <luke-jr_> hehe, me too 9
693 2011-02-16 04:12:04 <JunK-Y> im more in networking, not in gpu programming, sadly
694 2011-02-16 04:13:08 <ZenMondo> So I dug out this special edition of TIME magazine dated Spring 1995 called "Welcome to Cyberspace" in it is a short story by Neal Stephenson called _The Great Simolean Caper_ that 16 years ago predicted a money system like Bitcoin called CryptoCredits.
695 2011-02-16 04:13:59 <afed> have you read his books?
696 2011-02-16 04:14:30 <ZenMondo> It also included a conspiracy by the govt to discredit electronic currency
697 2011-02-16 04:14:37 <afed> i am p. sure snowcrash and then the diamond age are supposed to depict the future consequences of the events of cryptonomicon
698 2011-02-16 04:14:42 <ZenMondo> I have read all of Neal Stephenson's books.
699 2011-02-16 04:14:51 <afed> hi5
700 2011-02-16 04:15:01 <afed> i've put zodiac and the big u aside
701 2011-02-16 04:15:09 <afed> incase he dies without publishing anything else
702 2011-02-16 04:15:38 <afed> he's into medieval euro martial arts, he might accidentally lop his own head off with a broadsword
703 2011-02-16 04:15:43 <ZenMondo> I am re-reading the Baroque Cycle right now and plan on reading Cryptonomicon right afterwards.
704 2011-02-16 04:16:24 <afed> crazy how many forward references to the baroque cycle are in cryptonomicon
705 2011-02-16 04:16:44 <afed> like he knew he was going to go and write that stuff
706 2011-02-16 04:16:51 <afed> or he just put in a bunch of details he could refer to later
707 2011-02-16 04:17:12 <afed> i also haven't read anathem yet
708 2011-02-16 04:17:29 <afed> work and study all the time :(
709 2011-02-16 04:17:40 <afed> and waste time on irc and minecraft and crap
710 2011-02-16 04:17:44 <xelister> nanotube: any idea about a nice inline crypto?
711 2011-02-16 04:17:44 <ZenMondo> Anathem is one of my favorite books of all time.
712 2011-02-16 04:17:46 <xelister> pubkey
713 2011-02-16 04:17:48 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: aticonfig -odgt works fine, thanks
714 2011-02-16 04:17:56 <xelister> is openpgp easy to implement in java you think?
715 2011-02-16 04:18:42 <xelister> inline openpgp seems perfect. but will it be easy to handle from say inside freenet plugin in java
716 2011-02-16 04:18:47 <nanotube> xelister: nice inline crypto... well there's gpgme library...
717 2011-02-16 04:18:55 <nanotube> i bet there are java bindings for that.
718 2011-02-16 04:19:04 <xelister> we can make bitcoin over frennet
719 2011-02-16 04:19:07 <xelister> MORE SECURE THEN FREENET
720 2011-02-16 04:19:13 <xelister> by using fucking awesome tunnels
721 2011-02-16 04:19:24 <xelister> BITCOIN OVER TUNNELS OVER FREENET TUNNELS.  how anonymous is that lol
722 2011-02-16 04:19:31 <nanotube> haha
723 2011-02-16 04:19:35 <lfm> slower than bitcoin or freenet alone
724 2011-02-16 04:19:37 <xelister> normall freenet will not do that yet, because it would make traffic x10 more
725 2011-02-16 04:19:44 <xelister> but this is business
726 2011-02-16 04:19:45 <xelister> so.
727 2011-02-16 04:19:47 <xelister> :)
728 2011-02-16 04:20:00 <xelister> lfm: yeah but if you want to make absolutelly super secret transaction
729 2011-02-16 04:20:39 <luke-jr_> yawn
730 2011-02-16 04:20:42 <xelister> then you dont care about your donation to EFF / donation to Chinese disidents / Ordering of 10 kG plutonium  will it reach recipient next friday or saturaday
731 2011-02-16 04:20:44 <ZenMondo> Isn't Bitcoin already anonymous?
732 2011-02-16 04:20:48 <xelister> ZenMondo: no
733 2011-02-16 04:20:49 <luke-jr_> so who's tried genjix's client?
734 2011-02-16 04:20:54 <luke-jr_> ZenMondo: more or less
735 2011-02-16 04:21:02 <luke-jr_> ZenMondo: it's as anonymous as you make it
736 2011-02-16 04:21:40 <xelister> nanotube: just make such server run on VPN bought by BTC, and everyone can suck your dong =)
737 2011-02-16 04:21:57 <luke-jr_> lol
738 2011-02-16 04:22:10 <nanotube> heh
739 2011-02-16 04:22:56 <luke-jr_> anyhow, I added stuff to genjix's client to make it work with a normal RPC server
740 2011-02-16 04:22:57 <luke-jr_> enjoy
741 2011-02-16 04:22:59 <xelister> <8 years later> oh how you found me? Yea some guy bought this VPN from me before the China War.  Da.  Da... Who it was? A shto ty m??wisz? poszedB won, da!
742 2011-02-16 04:23:05 <luke-jr_> maybe someday I'll get to Tonal support
743 2011-02-16 04:23:40 <ZenMondo> Now I know a bit about freenent though I don't run a node. How would it be possible to be on the p2p network of bitcoin on an undernet like freenet?
744 2011-02-16 04:24:11 <xelister> ZenMondo: gateway nodes
745 2011-02-16 04:24:24 <xelister> basically you just need 2 types of data to push/pull
746 2011-02-16 04:24:26 <xelister> blocks
747 2011-02-16 04:24:29 <xelister> and transacations
748 2011-02-16 04:25:02 <xelister> and blocks are perfectly suited for distributed static content publishing anon system, like freenet
749 2011-02-16 04:25:54 <xelister> since they will be massdownloaded
750 2011-02-16 04:26:34 <xelister> ZenMondo: install a freenet node it is 3 minutes literally =) and you could help us test this miracle of anon world
751 2011-02-16 04:36:10 <davux> ;help
752 2011-02-16 04:36:16 <davux> ;;help
753 2011-02-16 04:36:25 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
754 2011-02-16 04:37:02 <davux> how do you know the estimated time from the hash rate?
755 2011-02-16 04:37:40 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,calc 2000
756 2011-02-16 04:37:43 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 1 year, 40 weeks, 1 day, 4 hours, 20 minutes, and 22 seconds
757 2011-02-16 04:38:53 <davux> ;;,bc,calc 559726
758 2011-02-16 04:38:54 <gribble> Error: ",bc,calc" is not a valid command.
759 2011-02-16 04:38:59 <davux> ;;bc,calc 559726
760 2011-02-16 04:38:59 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 559726 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 2 days, 7 hours, 24 minutes, and 50 seconds
761 2011-02-16 04:39:19 <davux> oh, no
762 2011-02-16 04:39:23 <davux> haha
763 2011-02-16 04:39:35 <davux> ;;bc,calc 560
764 2011-02-16 04:39:36 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 560 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 6 years, 16 weeks, 5 days, 18 hours, 55 minutes, and 35 seconds
765 2011-02-16 04:39:39 <davux> :D
766 2011-02-16 04:40:08 <davux> gethashespersec gives an answer in hps, not khps...
767 2011-02-16 04:41:21 <JunK-Y> ?
768 2011-02-16 04:42:28 <JunK-Y> nanotube: The processing of one 512-bit block is performed in 66 clock cycles and the bit-rate achieved is 7.75Mbps / MHz on the input of the SHA256 core.   sounds good huh?
769 2011-02-16 04:54:34 <xelister> yey 500 line specyfication
770 2011-02-16 04:54:40 <xelister> its hard to get shit right in details.
771 2011-02-16 05:04:31 <gribble> Error: "bc,calc.11973" is not a valid command.
772 2011-02-16 05:04:31 <pwrgeek> ;;bc,calc.11973
773 2011-02-16 05:04:45 <gribble> Error: "bc,calc,11973" is not a valid command.
774 2011-02-16 05:04:45 <pwrgeek> ;;bc,calc,11973
775 2011-02-16 05:05:14 <pwrgeek> ;;bc,calc 11973
776 2011-02-16 05:05:15 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 11973 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 15 weeks, 2 days, 22 hours, 33 minutes, and 7 seconds
777 2011-02-16 05:07:34 <ntosme2> wow...9 templates for PushMessage
778 2011-02-16 05:10:59 <jgarzik> ntosme2: any other language would have forced a more sane solution on the programmer :)
779 2011-02-16 05:12:53 <pwrgeek> Is there a simple library (JAVA or C) implementing the BC protocol anywhere?
780 2011-02-16 05:13:12 <pwrgeek> Working on an iphone app and don't wan't to reinvent the wheel
781 2011-02-16 05:13:17 <ntosme2> jgarzik: like Python's def fun(*arg):
782 2011-02-16 05:15:51 <larsig> is it possible to estimate how many users who are connected to the btc network?
783 2011-02-16 05:18:15 <ntosme2> larsig: write a crawler?
784 2011-02-16 05:18:32 <ntosme2> I've done a similar one for gnutella
785 2011-02-16 05:19:43 <midnightmagic_> ZenMondo: not much of a prediction, hashcash-like systems have been dreamed up for decades.
786 2011-02-16 05:20:14 <ZenMondo> well A decade and a half at least. :)
787 2011-02-16 05:20:44 <ZenMondo> hashcash was a system to combat spam. Not really currency.
788 2011-02-16 05:21:13 <pwrgeek> :larsig hard to do.  If you analyze slush's pool he has 738 workers right now and has produced 20% of blocks over last 145 so if you figure 20% of cpu power translates to 20% of computers then there are around 3690
789 2011-02-16 05:21:58 <[Noodles]> that would be miners only
790 2011-02-16 05:22:13 <pwrgeek> I know a lot of approximations, but prob as close as anyone can get without serious traffic analysis
791 2011-02-16 05:23:59 <pwrgeek> [Noodles]: true but there aren't many clients on the network right now not mining
792 2011-02-16 05:24:23 <[Noodles]> says who?
793 2011-02-16 05:24:52 <ZenMondo> pwrgeek: thats an assertion where is your evidence?
794 2011-02-16 05:25:22 <pwrgeek> [Noodles]: anecdotal only.
795 2011-02-16 05:25:42 <pwrgeek> why would you be on the network and not attempt to generate
796 2011-02-16 05:25:58 <[Noodles]> to accept payments and/or donations?
797 2011-02-16 05:25:59 <ZenMondo> to not peg your processor.
798 2011-02-16 05:26:10 <[Noodles]> to pay and/or donate?
799 2011-02-16 05:26:54 <pwrgeek> no need to be online to accept payments unless ther are for real time goods otherwise connect occasionally to gather them
800 2011-02-16 05:27:27 <pwrgeek> In my case a pegged processor is a good thing.
801 2011-02-16 05:29:20 <[Noodles]> how do you process orders of your customers if your node is not online?
802 2011-02-16 05:29:48 <[Noodles]> might work for your single-donation-address, but not for a shop/service accepting btc-payments
803 2011-02-16 05:30:18 <pwrgeek> True, but how many of those are there right now
804 2011-02-16 05:30:41 <pwrgeek> how many regular people are there in comparison
805 2011-02-16 05:31:38 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, ps i think my attack can be solved with a single line
806 2011-02-16 05:31:52 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, lets test...
807 2011-02-16 05:32:07 <[Noodles]> i've got more non-generating nodes online, than those that generate (which is actually just 1)
808 2011-02-16 05:33:23 <jgarzik> MT`AwAy: ping
809 2011-02-16 05:33:35 <pwrgeek> Interesting! I think that will be the trend going forward as well, just a gut feeling right now that the majority of nodes are generating and that therefore my math is reasonably close (may be off by as much as a factor of 10)
810 2011-02-16 05:34:02 <jgarzik> who says the majority of nodes are generating?
811 2011-02-16 05:34:10 <jgarzik> the opposite seems highly likely
812 2011-02-16 05:34:22 <jgarzik> mining power is consolidating
813 2011-02-16 05:34:25 <phantomcircuit> that's fairly easy to test
814 2011-02-16 05:35:02 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, main.cpp:2640
815 2011-02-16 05:35:08 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, that looks uhm... wrong
816 2011-02-16 05:35:38 <pwrgeek> jgarzik: In the future it is highly likely, right now most people on the network are enthusiasts or hobbyists who are more likely to generate
817 2011-02-16 05:35:54 <MT`AwAy> jgarzik, ?
818 2011-02-16 05:35:59 <genjix> luke-jr_: hey just saw your branch... got stuff!
819 2011-02-16 05:36:16 <genjix> d
820 2011-02-16 05:37:06 <pwrgeek> anyway does anyone know if there is a C (preferably) lib that implements the protocol.  If not there should be so that as more clients get writeen they can all use the same protocol backend
821 2011-02-16 05:37:20 <genjix> i agree :p
822 2011-02-16 05:37:21 <jgarzik> pwrgeek: I'm not sure I agree with that hand-waving assertion ;-)   Power geeks get access to a free payment network, whether they generate or not.
823 2011-02-16 05:37:33 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: changing that to 2000 won't fix the problem AFAICS
824 2011-02-16 05:37:56 <genjix> btw, I've never generated a coin ever and neither has my sister or other 4 irl people i know either
825 2011-02-16 05:38:41 <genjix> jaromil: hey did you manage to get that message to caedes? did he do it?
826 2011-02-16 05:39:05 <gribble> Error: "bc,seen" is not a valid command.
827 2011-02-16 05:39:32 <genjix> ;;seen luke-jr_
828 2011-02-16 05:39:42 <gribble> luke-jr_ was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 hour, 15 minutes, and 59 seconds ago: <luke-jr_> maybe someday I'll get to Tonal support
829 2011-02-16 05:39:47 <pwrgeek> I'm in slush's pool after several months on my own and no coins either
830 2011-02-16 05:40:12 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, well we're about to see
831 2011-02-16 05:41:51 <genjix> luke-jr_: this is what I imagined for a settings dialog, http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7/dialogs-configdialog.html ... you want to put something like that in? I've been using the Oxygen icon set so you should take things from there (to be consistent), http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/Oxygen+Icons?content=74184
832 2011-02-16 05:42:22 <genjix> ... just a suggestion :) not forcing anything
833 2011-02-16 05:42:34 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, lol no that didnt help at all
834 2011-02-16 05:42:44 <phantomcircuit> well it definitely slowed it down slightly
835 2011-02-16 05:43:29 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: that's about what I would expect
836 2011-02-16 05:43:42 <phantomcircuit> also the real problem is memory
837 2011-02-16 05:43:49 <phantomcircuit> possibly there is a leak somewhere
838 2011-02-16 05:45:03 <bk128> pwrgeek: genjix: are you guys running gpu miners?
839 2011-02-16 05:45:19 <genjix> i've never mined before :p
840 2011-02-16 05:45:59 <genjix> not worth my time to setup for the payoff involved
841 2011-02-16 05:46:03 <pwrgeek> bk128: running an old 4350 until my new 5770 comes in (gets paid for) ;-)
842 2011-02-16 05:46:49 <pwrgeek> more of an experiment and wanting to help strengthen the network than to actually make money.
843 2011-02-16 05:46:51 <bk128> genjix: I just bought some hardware for $700.  I calculated it'll take a month to pay it off (assuming the difficulty and exchange rate increase proportionally)
844 2011-02-16 05:47:16 <bk128> tried to factor in power costs and exchange fees too
845 2011-02-16 05:47:38 <rhett`> I just built a computer with a m4a78t-e and a six core phenom and cant get it to post anyone that can help me troubleshoot?
846 2011-02-16 05:47:44 <pwrgeek> bk128: right now I calculate power fees at 0 as its winter where I'm located
847 2011-02-16 05:47:56 <pwrgeek> CPU/GPU heat offsets heating energy cost
848 2011-02-16 05:48:09 <bk128> yeah.  where i live though we can use gas which is cheaper
849 2011-02-16 05:48:17 <midnightmagic_> rhett`: not the best place for generic computer help. :-(
850 2011-02-16 05:48:38 <rhett`> yeah i suppose
851 2011-02-16 05:48:42 <ZenMondo> Does it power up and then power right off?
852 2011-02-16 05:49:33 <pwrgeek> rhett': BIOS version?
853 2011-02-16 05:49:34 <bk128> in the summer, you're going to pay extra.  pay for the gpu's to heat your apartment then pay for your air conditioners to pump the heat out
854 2011-02-16 05:49:35 <midnightmagic_> ah, someone to help you. :) you lucked out. you gents mind taking it to privmsg? :)
855 2011-02-16 05:49:37 <rhett`> no it stays on the fans run the motherboard led is lit and it seems to work fine no beeps or nothing just not getting anything on the monitor
856 2011-02-16 05:49:43 <rhett`> sure man
857 2011-02-16 05:50:00 <pwrgeek> bk128: in the summer I'll prob turn it off
858 2011-02-16 05:50:15 <midnightmagic_> no biggie, just at the moment it's tough to follow the phantomcircuit hack thread.
859 2011-02-16 05:50:18 <pwrgeek> no AC in the house
860 2011-02-16 05:50:28 <da2ce7> hey back
861 2011-02-16 05:50:33 <bk128> pwrgeek: run it in a tent :)
862 2011-02-16 05:50:42 <da2ce7> :)
863 2011-02-16 05:50:50 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic_, , ?
864 2011-02-16 05:51:05 <da2ce7> ;;bc,stats
865 2011-02-16 05:51:08 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108406 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 457 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 6 hours, 35 minutes, and 10 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34831.52962166
866 2011-02-16 05:51:15 <pwrgeek> bk128: might work, course it gets to 105F here so it might just overheat and crash
867 2011-02-16 05:51:50 <bk128> pwrgeek: you'd have to see if it's worth investing in a large passive radiator water cooling system
868 2011-02-16 05:52:08 <pwrgeek> bk128: for a 4350 not a chance
869 2011-02-16 05:52:14 <bk128> that pumps to outside.  that's what i might do
870 2011-02-16 05:52:23 <bk128> right, not worth it for the 4350
871 2011-02-16 05:52:41 <midnightmagic_> jesus, next difficulty est. almost at 35000
872 2011-02-16 05:53:08 <bk128> yeah, it keeps going up.  and I'm adding another 1ghash/sec on friday :)
873 2011-02-16 05:53:30 <pwrgeek> anyway guess there isn't a C lib like what I'm looking for so now the eternal question.  Do it right and write one or hack what is there into your code and kick the can down the road
874 2011-02-16 05:53:34 <midnightmagic_> phantomcircuit: trying to follow you and jgarzik and simultaneously duplicate both your hack and a fix is tough with all the chatter.
875 2011-02-16 05:54:40 <Validus> welcome to irc
876 2011-02-16 05:54:44 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, fix doesnt work it actually might make it worse
877 2011-02-16 05:55:06 <midnightmagic_> phantomcircuit: i'm doing something else.
878 2011-02-16 05:55:23 <phantomcircuit> k
879 2011-02-16 05:56:08 <bk128> has anyone watercooled their 5870's?
880 2011-02-16 05:56:34 <midnightmagic_> bk128: there's a guy in norway who hooked up a watercooler to his bathroom floor
881 2011-02-16 05:56:49 <phantomcircuit> lol
882 2011-02-16 05:57:04 <bk128> to his bathroom floor?   like a bunch of pipes laid out?
883 2011-02-16 05:57:17 <bk128> series of tubes
884 2011-02-16 05:57:18 <midnightmagic_> no, like radiant floor heating, fed by the watercoolers in his miners.
885 2011-02-16 05:57:24 <bk128> lol
886 2011-02-16 05:57:34 <midnightmagic_> so yeah, i guess.. series of tubes.
887 2011-02-16 05:59:08 <pwrgeek> ;;bc,stats
888 2011-02-16 05:59:10 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108408 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 455 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 6 hours, 20 minutes, and 50 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34852.16307452
889 2011-02-16 05:59:14 <phantomcircuit> just as a uhm academic question
890 2011-02-16 05:59:22 <phantomcircuit> is there a way to short BTC?
891 2011-02-16 05:59:34 <midnightmagic_> i don't think any markets have taken the risk yet
892 2011-02-16 05:59:49 <midnightmagic_> or maybe you can in bitcoin-otc
893 2011-02-16 06:00:05 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, a joke ;)
894 2011-02-16 06:00:29 <midnightmagic_> i know
895 2011-02-16 06:00:39 <pwrgeek> phantomcircuit: way too much counterparty risk for any sane person
896 2011-02-16 06:00:44 <OneFixt> phantomcircuit: midnightmagic_: it's been done
897 2011-02-16 06:01:01 <midnightmagic_> the most-fun thing to do with a joke is to answer it seriously. :)
898 2011-02-16 06:01:02 <phantomcircuit> lol
899 2011-02-16 06:01:05 <lfm> phantomcircuit: the only way I can immagine doing a short would be to borrow some
900 2011-02-16 06:01:17 <phantomcircuit> lfm, well yeah that's what a short is
901 2011-02-16 06:01:41 <lfm> phantomcircuit: you just have to find someone willing to lend
902 2011-02-16 06:03:52 <phantomcircuit> hopefully nobody in here is dumb enough to let me borrow BTC
903 2011-02-16 06:03:56 <phantomcircuit> lets try otc
904 2011-02-16 06:04:05 <midnightmagic_> i'll lend you 1 :-)
905 2011-02-16 06:04:14 <lfm> you have any colateral?
906 2011-02-16 06:04:43 <phantomcircuit> sure i have collateral
907 2011-02-16 06:05:23 <phantomcircuit> ill place current market value x 2 in whatever currency you'd like in an escrow account somewhere
908 2011-02-16 06:06:52 <midnightmagic_> it'll be tough to break the hallucination. people want to believe in a system outside of the tiny box of their most-hated enemy.
909 2011-02-16 06:08:17 <phantomcircuit> well obviously my first move would be to cause panic by spreading rumors that i've managed to steal everybodies wallet
910 2011-02-16 06:08:23 <phantomcircuit> that would probably do it actually
911 2011-02-16 06:08:54 <jgarzik> doubtful
912 2011-02-16 06:10:03 <jgarzik> it's easy enough to distinguish between a grotty implementation and fundamental cryptographic integrity problems
913 2011-02-16 06:10:36 <phantomcircuit> stealing wallets is an implementation problem
914 2011-02-16 06:10:43 <phantomcircuit> all your keys r belong to us
915 2011-02-16 06:10:55 <lfm> all youd need is some buffer overflow in the main client
916 2011-02-16 06:11:06 <jgarzik> wallets can always be stolen, just like cash can be stolen from your physical wallet.
917 2011-02-16 06:12:46 <jgarzik> if all data is encrypted in storage, there's still in-RAM attacks on the client.  OTOH, even if my house is as secure as like Fort Knox, there remain attacks thieves may make on me when I venture outside to spend cash.
918 2011-02-16 06:13:22 <lfm> jgarzik: you go outside?!?!
919 2011-02-16 06:14:09 <jgarzik> the easiest attacks on bitcoin are simply to copy the unecrypted wallet off of some fool's hard drive  (IMHO, it should be encrypted when stored)
920 2011-02-16 06:14:18 <jgarzik> we all await the first bitcoin virus :)
921 2011-02-16 06:15:06 <midnightmagic_> even if it is encrypted, whatever steps you take to decrypt it are revealed and duplicatable by attacker
922 2011-02-16 06:15:30 <jgarzik> in general, protecting private keys is an old problem with known parameters -- and notably, largely peripheral to the fundamental strengths of bitcoin
923 2011-02-16 06:15:34 <Validus> i think a cool feature would be beside the balance it can retrieve the rate from a website and you can select what you want it to display in
924 2011-02-16 06:15:41 <midnightmagic_> i guess unless you never intend to spend them..
925 2011-02-16 06:15:56 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, ps that patch only protects clients with a -maxconnections
926 2011-02-16 06:16:21 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: true
927 2011-02-16 06:16:46 <phantomcircuit> and even for them doesn't help the cpu starvation
928 2011-02-16 06:17:20 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: well the fix is a hack.  the real fix is to add flow control.
929 2011-02-16 06:17:57 <midnightmagic_> ah i was right after all.
930 2011-02-16 06:18:15 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic_, about what?
931 2011-02-16 06:18:52 <midnightmagic_> oh, sorry, I was looking at Mt Gox trades..! i had too much coffee today, my fingers are a little jittery
932 2011-02-16 06:19:57 <phantomcircuit> dat crash
933 2011-02-16 06:21:33 <midnightmagic_> i love the persistence of all those folks still in @$0.80s :)
934 2011-02-16 06:24:33 <xelister> midnightmagic_: =)
935 2011-02-16 06:26:15 <midnightmagic_> it's kind of like insurance. "You shall not pass! Not until I have my BTC!"
936 2011-02-16 06:28:54 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, it seems the more serious problem is that the buffer isn't cleared when the rogue client disconnects
937 2011-02-16 06:29:33 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: that sounds strange
938 2011-02-16 06:32:29 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: close to bedtime here.  I'll monitor jgarzik@gmail.com  and IRC for the next hour or so, off and on
939 2011-02-16 06:32:38 <phantomcircuit> k
940 2011-02-16 06:33:15 <phantomcircuit> im probably about to go play cs:s anyways
941 2011-02-16 06:37:53 <phantomcircuit> yeah
942 2011-02-16 06:39:13 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, all hostile clients disconnected memory still in use
943 2011-02-16 06:46:43 <phantomcircuit> lol the op_checksig stuff is hilarious
944 2011-02-16 06:53:34 <rame> Somebody needs to establish the 1st bank of bitcoin. Offering loans
945 2011-02-16 06:53:50 <phantomcircuit> it's not going to be me
946 2011-02-16 06:53:52 <phantomcircuit> xD
947 2011-02-16 06:54:25 <foucist> are there any video cards better than 5970 at all?
948 2011-02-16 06:54:31 <foucist> like what about the workstation cards
949 2011-02-16 06:54:36 <foucist> or other dedicated gpu cards
950 2011-02-16 06:55:19 <rame> 6970 ;p