1 2011-02-18 00:00:01 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, cutting it down is easy though
  2 2011-02-18 00:00:03 <Diablo-D3> minimal install is like 150 megs or some shit
  3 2011-02-18 00:00:27 <Diablo-D3> alpine is still smaller
  4 2011-02-18 00:00:38 <phantomcircuit> which is why i said base gnome install
  5 2011-02-18 00:00:41 <Diablo-D3> who installs gnome though?
  6 2011-02-18 00:00:49 <midnightmagic> netbsd is smallest and fits on 2 floppies still.
  7 2011-02-18 00:01:02 <midnightmagic> :-P
  8 2011-02-18 00:01:13 <Diablo-D3> kind of seems pointless to install debian and then fag it up
  9 2011-02-18 00:02:11 <phantomcircuit> yeah
 10 2011-02-18 00:02:21 <phantomcircuit> all you need is lynx
 11 2011-02-18 00:02:31 <phantomcircuit> like a real uh man?
 12 2011-02-18 00:02:45 <Diablo-D3> xfce4 is tiny compared to gnome2
 13 2011-02-18 00:02:47 <Diablo-D3> and does more
 14 2011-02-18 00:03:31 <midnightmagic> dwm is tiniest!
 15 2011-02-18 00:04:00 <Diablo-D3> your dick is tiniest, stfu.
 16 2011-02-18 00:04:10 <midnightmagic> my dwm works at usable speeds even while miners have eaten up my display adapter!
 17 2011-02-18 00:05:06 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: menus are for pussies!
 18 2011-02-18 00:06:21 <hozer> df
 19 2011-02-18 00:06:30 <hozer> whoops
 20 2011-02-18 00:06:34 <mmarker> Tiny. Here's a copy of RTEMS.
 21 2011-02-18 00:14:10 <hozer> cute.. hozer@minbar poclbm$ python2.6 poclbm.py
 22 2011-02-18 00:17:40 <mmarker> grrr
 23 2011-02-18 00:20:44 <hozer> dammit, my opencll is busted
 24 2011-02-18 00:20:45 <grondilu> I've tried "telnet SOME_IP 8333" to check a node, and now I can't kill the telnet session.  Ctrl-C doesn't work.  pkill telnet either.   What to do?
 25 2011-02-18 00:21:32 <midnightmagic> Control-], then quit
 26 2011-02-18 00:22:43 <grondilu> too late, I've sent a SIGKILL message from htop.  I'll try Ctrl-] quit next time, thks.
 27 2011-02-18 00:25:00 <mmarker> I am about to scream
 28 2011-02-18 00:28:25 <mmarker> I need more beer for this. This is becoming painful.
 29 2011-02-18 00:37:27 <grondilu> damn it I can't get any connections even if I add a whole bunch of fallback nodes.
 30 2011-02-18 00:39:55 <Kiba> mmarker: what's so painful?
 31 2011-02-18 00:40:30 <mmarker> Trying to set up the DSP on a TI DaVinci processor
 32 2011-02-18 00:40:39 <mmarker> it's a LOT of crappy little files and drivers
 33 2011-02-18 00:42:01 <grondilu> should I run "bitcoind -add=IP1 -add=IP2 ..." or "bitcoind -add=IP1,IP2,..."  ?
 34 2011-02-18 00:43:29 <mmarker> Ok, let's see if the new driver works. Reboot the machine
 35 2011-02-18 00:43:44 <mmarker> and we wait
 36 2011-02-18 00:44:58 <mmarker> Whoops. Forgot the embedded box serves DNS
 37 2011-02-18 00:45:03 <mmarker> Hope it comes back ;(
 38 2011-02-18 00:45:12 <mmarker> Crap.
 39 2011-02-18 01:13:46 <Lachesis> is 85.5C too hot for a 5870?
 40 2011-02-18 01:13:53 <JFK911> Ow
 41 2011-02-18 01:14:16 <JFK911> depends if its in warranty i guess :)
 42 2011-02-18 01:14:28 <Lachesis> JFK911, lol
 43 2011-02-18 01:15:38 <Diablo-D3> Lachesis: eeeh
 44 2011-02-18 01:15:41 <Diablo-D3> I dont like past 80c
 45 2011-02-18 01:15:49 <Diablo-D3> and 85c implies the vrms are 120c
 46 2011-02-18 01:15:53 <Diablo-D3> which is bad
 47 2011-02-18 01:20:09 <luke-jr> someone generate a block plz kthx
 48 2011-02-18 01:20:30 <JFK911> How old is this one?
 49 2011-02-18 01:22:03 <andrew12> 10 mins
 50 2011-02-18 01:22:09 <andrew12> 12, actually
 51 2011-02-18 01:23:32 <bk128> Lachesis: mine's at 85, but I haven't built a custom case yet.  if you look at the ati catalyst panel, it doesn't put 85 c in the red, it's more in the middle
 52 2011-02-18 01:23:46 <bk128> shouldnt void the warranty, but will decrease the life of the card
 53 2011-02-18 01:25:05 <bk128> Diablo-D3: vrms = videoram??
 54 2011-02-18 01:25:15 <Diablo-D3> no
 55 2011-02-18 01:25:20 <Diablo-D3> voltage regulator module
 56 2011-02-18 01:25:28 <bk128> ah
 57 2011-02-18 01:25:56 <bk128> bucking 12v down to 1.2 @ how many amps
 58 2011-02-18 01:26:07 <bk128> how efficient are those?
 59 2011-02-18 01:27:00 <foucist> Diablo-D3: which is better, xfx or sapphire? :P
 60 2011-02-18 01:27:06 <bk128> sapphire!
 61 2011-02-18 01:27:17 <luke-jr> who runs http://productiveestates.com/ ?
 62 2011-02-18 01:27:19 <bk128> but I did just buy 2 xfx cards.  haven't opened them yet
 63 2011-02-18 01:27:45 <bk128> foucist: Diablo-D3 recommends asus, msi, sapphire, and gigabyte I think
 64 2011-02-18 01:28:30 <foucist> oh?
 65 2011-02-18 01:28:57 <foucist> bk128: cool thanks
 66 2011-02-18 01:29:39 <foucist> oh i got it mixed up
 67 2011-02-18 01:29:42 <foucist> which is better, xfx or diamond
 68 2011-02-18 01:29:53 <bk128> I dont think either of those are highly recommended
 69 2011-02-18 01:30:36 <foucist> yeah but if you had to choose? :P
 70 2011-02-18 01:31:36 <bk128> I don't have experience with either but xfx gets bashed the most in here
 71 2011-02-18 01:31:46 <bk128> wait and ask someone though
 72 2011-02-18 01:37:45 <afed> ;;bc,stats
 73 2011-02-18 01:37:47 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108836 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 27 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 hours, 57 minutes, and 45 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 36273.28265936
 74 2011-02-18 01:38:05 <afed> three hours
 75 2011-02-18 01:41:03 <Lachesis> i need to RMA one of my cards
 76 2011-02-18 01:41:08 <Lachesis> dual card setup wasn't wokring
 77 2011-02-18 01:41:12 <Lachesis> so i tried running with just that card
 78 2011-02-18 01:41:17 <Lachesis> and it gave crazy test patterns and junk
 79 2011-02-18 01:41:33 <Lachesis> and refused to even run the ubuntu desktop for more than 5 minutes before it locked up
 80 2011-02-18 01:41:55 <Lachesis> anyone think i can push my 5870 much higher than 850MHz?
 81 2011-02-18 01:44:56 <da2ce7> Well I'm going to be offilne for a couple of days... make sure you pledge https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2312.0  bitcoin on freenet project. :) we are looking to hire developers :)
 82 2011-02-18 01:53:53 <bk128> Lachesis: not if it's already at 85c.  you need to build a custom case w/ better fans
 83 2011-02-18 01:56:36 <Lachesis> bk128, no, i ran it cool
 84 2011-02-18 01:56:42 <Lachesis> even idling it failed
 85 2011-02-18 01:57:03 <Lachesis> has anyone tried the 69xx cards?
 86 2011-02-18 01:57:06 <Lachesis> like the 6950?
 87 2011-02-18 01:57:58 <bitcoiner> is it normal my new card corner sticker were already curled up ?
 88 2011-02-18 01:59:52 <bk128> 6970 supposedly has similar performance to the 5970
 89 2011-02-18 02:01:11 <bk128> for hashing
 90 2011-02-18 02:04:50 <hozer> wheee, I'm quite happy with the MSI 5770 I just installed
 91 2011-02-18 02:05:15 <hozer> running at 52C @900mhz and 163 Mhash/sec
 92 2011-02-18 02:08:01 <bitcoiner> how much u paid hozer
 93 2011-02-18 02:16:18 <afed> ;;bc,stats
 94 2011-02-18 02:16:20 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108846 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 17 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 hour, 51 minutes, and 55 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 36339.26812139
 95 2011-02-18 02:25:05 <ntosme2> so what happens to the currency that gets lost when the wallet file gets corrupted/deleted without a backup?
 96 2011-02-18 02:25:14 <ntosme2> poof?
 97 2011-02-18 02:25:38 <doublec> yep
 98 2011-02-18 02:25:42 <doublec> gone for good
 99 2011-02-18 02:27:26 <ntosme2> that seems like a bad solution, but I guess it just results in gradual deflation
100 2011-02-18 02:31:04 <JFK911> Nobody knows whether someone is holding the coins or whether they are lost.
101 2011-02-18 02:36:10 <ntosme2> I 'lost' 0.05 after flubbing a drive backup
102 2011-02-18 02:39:00 <mmarker> ;;bc,stats
103 2011-02-18 02:39:02 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108850 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 13 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 hour, 25 minutes, and 35 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 36352.80172669
104 2011-02-18 02:39:12 <mmarker> Oh man.
105 2011-02-18 02:46:59 <ntosme2> now for some reason Diablo is giving me really crappy hash rates
106 2011-02-18 02:47:08 <ntosme2> no idea what changed
107 2011-02-18 02:48:16 <Lachesis> anyone know an alternative for nullvoid's services?
108 2011-02-18 02:48:18 <Lachesis> like http://nullvoid.org/bitcoin/difficultiez.php
109 2011-02-18 02:49:51 <hacim_> that doesn't work for me
110 2011-02-18 02:57:38 <Diablo-D3> hmm
111 2011-02-18 02:57:41 <Diablo-D3> 11.2 is broken I think
112 2011-02-18 02:57:45 <Diablo-D3> ntosme2: driver bug
113 2011-02-18 02:57:58 <Diablo-D3> make sure you're using 10.11 sdk 2.1 and -w 64
114 2011-02-18 02:59:20 <ntosme2> what's the performance penalty going to WinXP vs recent Linux?
115 2011-02-18 02:59:39 <Diablo-D3> windows sucks.
116 2011-02-18 02:59:58 <ntosme2> hmm nevermind then
117 2011-02-18 03:00:31 <ntosme2> I though the setup might be a bit simpler
118 2011-02-18 03:00:43 <foucist> Diablo-D3: which is better given the choice, diamond or xfx? :P
119 2011-02-18 03:00:50 <Diablo-D3> foucist: I refuse to buy either
120 2011-02-18 03:00:53 <Diablo-D3> both are shit chinese oem brands
121 2011-02-18 03:01:01 <foucist> ah
122 2011-02-18 03:01:35 <afed> ;;bc,stats
123 2011-02-18 03:01:37 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108855 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 8 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 52 minutes and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 36392.84633309
124 2011-02-18 03:01:37 <ntosme2> I went with PowerColor
125 2011-02-18 03:01:44 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,stats
126 2011-02-18 03:01:46 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108855 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 8 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 52 minutes and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 36392.84633309
127 2011-02-18 03:01:54 <afed> guiz everyone turn off their miners for the next hour so the diff won't go up
128 2011-02-18 03:01:57 <foucist> ntosme2: oh apparently those are the worst
129 2011-02-18 03:02:04 <JunK-Y> 52 minutes, yay!
130 2011-02-18 03:02:06 <foucist> afed: would htat work?
131 2011-02-18 03:02:06 <ntosme2> oh good!
132 2011-02-18 03:02:07 <afed> if we stop mining now maybe the difficulty will go down
133 2011-02-18 03:02:10 <afed> foucist: no :)
134 2011-02-18 03:02:11 <foucist> lol
135 2011-02-18 03:02:26 <JunK-Y> cards are pretty cheap on ncix
136 2011-02-18 03:02:35 <JunK-Y> the 5870 and 6950
137 2011-02-18 03:02:42 <ntosme2> foucist: reliability or overall speed?
138 2011-02-18 03:02:51 <afed> JunK-Y: do they still ahve 5970 instock?
139 2011-02-18 03:03:06 <foucist> ntosme2: reliability
140 2011-02-18 03:03:09 <JunK-Y> dunno, its too expensive for me
141 2011-02-18 03:03:26 <JunK-Y> ive paid mine 669$ in last august, now its at like 775$
142 2011-02-18 03:03:35 <afed> yeah that's awful
143 2011-02-18 03:03:46 <JunK-Y> better take 2 5870 for 200$ each
144 2011-02-18 03:03:47 <ntosme2> foucist: maybe I can get them to fail in the warranty period then heh
145 2011-02-18 03:03:51 <afed> a good price is $500 to $550 USD
146 2011-02-18 03:04:17 <afed> more expensive than two 5870s and less hashes, but you can have twice the GPUs for your mobo/cpu/ram
147 2011-02-18 03:04:19 <luke-jr> JunK-Y: $700 is cheap?
148 2011-02-18 03:04:21 <afed> saves money building out miners
149 2011-02-18 03:04:32 <luke-jr> JunK-Y: not long ago, NewEgg had them for $600
150 2011-02-18 03:04:55 <JunK-Y> http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=52233&vpn=HD587XZNFC&manufacture=XFX&promoid=1270
151 2011-02-18 03:06:01 <luke-jr> JunK-Y: I got 5850 for $162. Much better deal.
152 2011-02-18 03:07:12 <foucist> JunK-Y: where are you again?
153 2011-02-18 03:07:18 <JunK-Y> 2.09 TeraFLOPS , not bad.
154 2011-02-18 03:07:20 <foucist> ncix is vancouver..
155 2011-02-18 03:07:29 <JunK-Y> foucist: montreal, Qc
156 2011-02-18 03:07:41 <JunK-Y> i order really often at ncix
157 2011-02-18 03:07:48 <JunK-Y> it takes 3 days for deliver.
158 2011-02-18 03:08:29 <foucist> 210 is pretty good for 5870, i only saw 290 before (on ncix)
159 2011-02-18 03:08:44 <JunK-Y> yeah, raelly cheap
160 2011-02-18 03:08:56 <JunK-Y> but like is right too, pretty cheap for the 5850 too
161 2011-02-18 03:09:07 <JunK-Y> but i would pay 50$ for to jump at 2.7 TF
162 2011-02-18 03:09:25 <foucist> well 2x5850 would be about 550MHash/s
163 2011-02-18 03:09:31 <foucist> overclocked a bit
164 2011-02-18 03:09:34 <JunK-Y> 1440 SP vs 1600 SP
165 2011-02-18 03:09:44 <foucist> yeah true
166 2011-02-18 03:09:52 <JunK-Y> and cost much more then the 5970 :)
167 2011-02-18 03:10:28 <luke-jr> too bad difficulty goes up
168 2011-02-18 03:10:34 <luke-jr> or I'd build a bunch of 5850 rigs :p
169 2011-02-18 03:10:55 <JunK-Y> did you guys joined bitcoin 'long' time ago?
170 2011-02-18 03:11:02 <foucist> not i
171 2011-02-18 03:11:03 <luke-jr> I joined Jan 1
172 2011-02-18 03:11:17 <JunK-Y> i just sunday
173 2011-02-18 03:11:26 <JunK-Y> just joined..
174 2011-02-18 03:11:34 <luke-jr> I just got my 5850 2 weeks ago
175 2011-02-18 03:11:39 <luke-jr> already paid for itself mining 200 BTC
176 2011-02-18 03:11:44 <JunK-Y> luke-jr: did you accumulate a lot of BTC since 1.5 month?
177 2011-02-18 03:11:50 <JunK-Y> nice
178 2011-02-18 03:11:52 <luke-jr> JunK-Y: mostly purchased
179 2011-02-18 03:12:02 <luke-jr> currently, I haven't broken even on the USD side
180 2011-02-18 03:12:09 <luke-jr> waiting for BTC to go up a bit more before I sell again
181 2011-02-18 03:12:26 <luke-jr> I include the 5850 cost in my bitcoin-related expenses :P
182 2011-02-18 03:12:48 <JunK-Y> ya, with the diffilculty increase, its going to take more processing to get 200 BTC :)
183 2011-02-18 03:13:38 <docl> what we need to do is find a way to get all the big time miners to allocate their gpu resources elsewhere. like curing cancer or something! :P
184 2011-02-18 03:14:36 <luke-jr> :P
185 2011-02-18 03:15:34 <Lachesis> docl, too true :)
186 2011-02-18 03:16:07 <JunK-Y> docl: i was at BOINC before ;)
187 2011-02-18 03:17:51 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,calc 240000
188 2011-02-18 03:17:52 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 240000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 5 days, 9 hours, 14 minutes, and 10 seconds
189 2011-02-18 03:18:12 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 940000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 1 day, 8 hours, 59 minutes, and 47 seconds
190 2011-02-18 03:18:12 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,calc 940000
191 2011-02-18 03:19:38 <afed> the 5970 card is still the  best way to
192 2011-02-18 03:19:42 <docl> how hard would it be to repurpose bitcoin mining rigs to transferring fiat currencies reliably?
193 2011-02-18 03:20:31 <JunK-Y> afed: yes, since theres 2 5870 on it.
194 2011-02-18 03:20:42 <luke-jr> docl: uh, impossible?
195 2011-02-18 03:20:49 <afed> ;;bc,stats
196 2011-02-18 03:20:51 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108859 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 4 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 26 minutes and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 36411.66692100
197 2011-02-18 03:20:54 <luke-jr> you can't transfer fiat currencies with hashing
198 2011-02-18 03:20:55 <JunK-Y> but due to overhead, 2x5870 is faster then a single 5970
199 2011-02-18 03:21:02 <afed> JunK-Y: sorry that was more of a mistaken up-enter than a query
200 2011-02-18 03:21:14 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: no
201 2011-02-18 03:21:22 <afed> but yea i agree
202 2011-02-18 03:21:23 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 265000
203 2011-02-18 03:21:27 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 265000 36411
204 2011-02-18 03:21:29 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 265000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 4 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes, and 38 seconds
205 2011-02-18 03:21:30 <Diablo-D3> a 5970 is underclocked, but can be fully clocked fine.
206 2011-02-18 03:21:30 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 265000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 36411, is 6 days, 19 hours, 55 minutes, and 28 seconds
207 2011-02-18 03:21:32 <mmarker> hmm, what's the most cost effective hardware nowadays? the 5970?
208 2011-02-18 03:21:38 <Diablo-D3> at full clock speed, it IS two 5870s.
209 2011-02-18 03:21:48 <luke-jr> mmarker: long-term, 5970
210 2011-02-18 03:21:52 <afed> mmarker: hard to obtain those
211 2011-02-18 03:22:01 <luke-jr> meh, 2 more days :x
212 2011-02-18 03:22:14 <afed> but yeah if you figure that you can get twice as many GPUs per board/cpu/ram
213 2011-02-18 03:22:23 <afed> you can build a farm more cheaply with those cards
214 2011-02-18 03:22:24 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
215 2011-02-18 03:22:26 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108860 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 3 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 19 minutes and 45 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 36425.56344299
216 2011-02-18 03:22:29 <afed> even with the price premium and lower clock speed
217 2011-02-18 03:22:35 <Diablo-D3> yeah but afed
218 2011-02-18 03:22:43 <Diablo-D3> all 5970s are out of stock
219 2011-02-18 03:22:46 <Diablo-D3> no one has any anymore
220 2011-02-18 03:22:48 <Diablo-D3> they're all gone
221 2011-02-18 03:22:55 <afed> Diablo-D3: they're showing up used
222 2011-02-18 03:23:03 <afed> Diablo-D3: maniac gamers want newer cards already
223 2011-02-18 03:23:10 <afed> Diablo-D3: you can pick up an used one for less than $600
224 2011-02-18 03:23:13 <Diablo-D3> yeah but you gotta watch those
225 2011-02-18 03:23:15 <afed> you can't rely on that of course
226 2011-02-18 03:23:22 <Diablo-D3> a lot of those were waterblocked or other shit
227 2011-02-18 03:23:22 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: ive called a local store here, they still have them, but at 800$CAD !
228 2011-02-18 03:23:26 <afed> used parts and intermittant supply
229 2011-02-18 03:23:32 <Diablo-D3> and you cant get replacement heatsinks for them
230 2011-02-18 03:23:40 <afed> sure but if you're building a farm you can easily water cool
231 2011-02-18 03:23:44 <afed> liquid cooling scales well
232 2011-02-18 03:23:53 <afed> you can use a single large pump, large radiator, large reservoir
233 2011-02-18 03:23:55 <Diablo-D3> it causes more problems than it solves
234 2011-02-18 03:24:01 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,calcd 240000 36412
235 2011-02-18 03:24:02 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 240000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 36412, is 1 week, 0 days, 13 hours, and 18 seconds
236 2011-02-18 03:24:08 <luke-jr> could someone rich plz send 0.01 BTC to 1KczVqwopWXQdFLe5sNQbpCq7yGSmXx2oo for testing? :P
237 2011-02-18 03:24:13 <Diablo-D3> art went with the stock hsfs on his cluster of 24 of them
238 2011-02-18 03:24:29 <afed> Diablo-D3: art's machine is huge
239 2011-02-18 03:24:34 <foucist> Diablo-D3: what were waterblocked?
240 2011-02-18 03:24:40 <Diablo-D3> afed: you mean machines
241 2011-02-18 03:24:43 <foucist> Diablo-D3: the $800 ones?
242 2011-02-18 03:24:48 <Diablo-D3> foucist: ebay ones
243 2011-02-18 03:24:48 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 940000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 36412, is 1 day, 22 hours, 12 minutes, and 50 seconds
244 2011-02-18 03:24:48 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,calcd 940000 36412
245 2011-02-18 03:24:49 <afed> yeah the whole stack
246 2011-02-18 03:24:59 <afed> could have better density with water
247 2011-02-18 03:25:02 <Diablo-D3> afed: 5 custom 4x5970 boxes, and a normal 4x5970 box
248 2011-02-18 03:25:03 <luke-jr> &
249 2011-02-18 03:25:04 <afed> and make it quieter
250 2011-02-18 03:25:06 <Diablo-D3> plus other random shit
251 2011-02-18 03:25:28 <luke-jr> please? :P
252 2011-02-18 03:25:38 <afed> Diablo-D3: i'd love to build something like that but i think the opportunity to GPU mine profitably is closing up fast
253 2011-02-18 03:25:41 <JunK-Y> whats ur maximum that you got in a 5870 ?
254 2011-02-18 03:26:01 <Diablo-D3> I think the current stock record for a 5870 is over 320
255 2011-02-18 03:26:15 <foucist> Diablo-D3: you mean non-OC'd?
256 2011-02-18 03:26:17 <afed> luke-jr: sure, let me boot my btc machine
257 2011-02-18 03:26:24 <Diablo-D3> foucist: yes
258 2011-02-18 03:26:30 <luke-jr> afed: you have a dedicated bitcoin machine?
259 2011-02-18 03:26:54 <afed> luke-jr: it's a vm
260 2011-02-18 03:26:59 <luke-jr> i c
261 2011-02-18 03:27:08 <afed> the client that actually holds all of my coins lives on an encrypted vm
262 2011-02-18 03:27:14 <afed> only turned on when i need to transfer
263 2011-02-18 03:27:27 <JunK-Y> vmware?
264 2011-02-18 03:27:37 <luke-jr> why not just an encrypted fs?
265 2011-02-18 03:28:09 <luke-jr> actually, I have a useless N810 I could make a dedicated bitcoind
266 2011-02-18 03:28:17 <afed> JunK-Y: yej
267 2011-02-18 03:28:23 <afed> can't compromise a machine that isn't turned on
268 2011-02-18 03:28:33 <luke-jr> afed: sure you can, if it's a VM
269 2011-02-18 03:28:35 <JunK-Y> that NAS is fucking slow!
270 2011-02-18 03:28:45 <afed> ok yeah
271 2011-02-18 03:28:51 <luke-jr> :P
272 2011-02-18 03:29:34 <afed> but vmware provides the encrypted fs and some degree of isolation
273 2011-02-18 03:29:47 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,stats
274 2011-02-18 03:29:49 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108863 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 5 hours, 12 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 36459.88692507
275 2011-02-18 03:32:14 <afed> luke-jr: sent
276 2011-02-18 03:32:53 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,stats
277 2011-02-18 03:32:55 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108863 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 5 hours, 12 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 36459.88692507
278 2011-02-18 03:33:07 <luke-jr> afed: wow, like 40 sec before it hit me
279 2011-02-18 03:33:30 <afed> not bad eh?
280 2011-02-18 03:33:40 <luke-jr> might be if I was buying coffee :P
281 2011-02-18 03:38:10 <JunK-Y> how come somes blocks are more then 50 BTC?
282 2011-02-18 03:38:46 <luke-jr> JunK-Y: fees
283 2011-02-18 03:39:27 <JunK-Y> http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000000844e197cacc78e949de0fbcc97c8fdb1bdba38058e9d630a633b   total BTC: 66.4
284 2011-02-18 03:39:49 <afed> transactions
285 2011-02-18 03:39:54 <luke-jr> that's not what the block producer got
286 2011-02-18 03:40:00 <luke-jr> that's total of all transactions
287 2011-02-18 03:40:11 <JunK-Y> the producer got 50, right?
288 2011-02-18 03:40:53 <foucist> how much does the electricity typically cost for 4x5970 per month?
289 2011-02-18 03:41:06 <foucist> asusming 0.20 kW/hr?
290 2011-02-18 03:41:09 <foucist> er or whatever it was
291 2011-02-18 03:41:12 <JunK-Y> last question for today, is there any way to run BTC in an offline mode? i mean, my brother has an ATI 4870 but hes not online all the time.
292 2011-02-18 03:41:38 <luke-jr> JunK-Y: no
293 2011-02-18 03:41:42 <AAA_awright> JunK-Y: Blocks are generates about every 10 minutes, not at all
294 2011-02-18 03:41:59 <luke-jr> JunK-Y: that's part of the security
295 2011-02-18 03:42:09 <JunK-Y> so i cant keep mining for like days. ok.
296 2011-02-18 03:42:14 <luke-jr> sure you can
297 2011-02-18 03:42:17 <luke-jr> just keep online
298 2011-02-18 03:42:28 <JunK-Y> luke-jr: he has a crappy DSL :(
299 2011-02-18 03:42:31 <luke-jr> so?
300 2011-02-18 03:42:35 <luke-jr> DSL is still 24/7
301 2011-02-18 03:42:46 <JunK-Y> not when ur DSL is keep disconnecting
302 2011-02-18 03:42:51 <Diablo-D3> heh
303 2011-02-18 03:42:57 <luke-jr> so keep it reconnecting -.-
304 2011-02-18 03:43:00 <AAA_awright> Heck you can use dial up it isn't *that* intensive
305 2011-02-18 03:43:10 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: what's that?
306 2011-02-18 03:43:30 <JunK-Y> he'll with with dnetc
307 2011-02-18 03:43:37 <JunK-Y> he'll stay..
308 2011-02-18 03:43:43 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: What's what?
309 2011-02-18 03:43:46 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: dialup :p
310 2011-02-18 03:44:01 <AAA_awright> Heh
311 2011-02-18 03:44:15 <AAA_awright> Occasionally useful to revolutionaries, that's what it is
312 2011-02-18 03:44:34 <JunK-Y> the new stats on slush's pool is cool.
313 2011-02-18 03:44:55 <mmarker> hmm, didnt get a good answer. I have a desktop machine and a remote machine running the bitcoind daemon. any way to export keys from the daemon and into the desktop's wallet?
314 2011-02-18 03:44:59 <doublec> a new method of calculating scores is a pain for intermittent miners
315 2011-02-18 03:45:02 <doublec> s/a/the/
316 2011-02-18 03:46:00 <doublec> I got a reward of around 1e-11 for 1 share
317 2011-02-18 03:46:30 <mmarker> wow, just got a .17 reward
318 2011-02-18 03:46:31 <mmarker> hawt
319 2011-02-18 03:46:39 <mmarker> ;;bc,stats
320 2011-02-18 03:46:43 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108863 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 5 hours, 12 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 36459.88692507
321 2011-02-18 03:46:54 <JunK-Y> mmarker: your first one?
322 2011-02-18 03:47:08 <mmarker> my first large payoff
323 2011-02-18 03:47:15 <mmarker> leaving the Nvidia 460 on
324 2011-02-18 03:47:17 <JunK-Y> yay, welcome :)
325 2011-02-18 03:47:25 <mmarker> the other machines are cpu miners, 250khash boxen
326 2011-02-18 03:47:41 <mmarker> I go for efficiency :D
327 2011-02-18 03:47:47 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,stats 2500
328 2011-02-18 03:47:48 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108863 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 5 hours, 12 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 36459.88692507
329 2011-02-18 03:47:58 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,calc 2500
330 2011-02-18 03:47:59 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2500 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 1 year, 21 weeks, 4 days, 22 hours, 40 minutes, and 17 seconds
331 2011-02-18 03:48:16 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,calcd 2500 36460
332 2011-02-18 03:48:17 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2500 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 36460, is 1 year, 51 weeks, 2 days, 23 hours, 23 minutes, and 23 seconds
333 2011-02-18 03:48:21 <JunK-Y> outch
334 2011-02-18 03:48:28 <JFK911> Cool.  I got one last block before the difficulty went up.
335 2011-02-18 03:48:52 <mmarker> 108864 is harder now, eh?
336 2011-02-18 03:49:07 <JFK911> That's the trigger isn't it
337 2011-02-18 03:49:45 <afed> ;;bc,stats
338 2011-02-18 03:49:47 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108863 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 5 hours, 12 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 36459.88692507
339 2011-02-18 03:49:53 <afed> are we there yet
340 2011-02-18 03:50:16 <JunK-Y> 108856 tooks a longer, i wonder for 864.
341 2011-02-18 04:00:53 <mmarker> hmm, should be done soon
342 2011-02-18 04:04:21 <foucist> hey guys
343 2011-02-18 04:04:33 <foucist> is there any escrow for bitcoins?
344 2011-02-18 04:04:55 <foucist> since its based on cryptography and hashes and such
345 2011-02-18 04:05:11 <foucist> wouldn't there be a built-in process for escrow
346 2011-02-18 04:05:13 <foucist> well guses not
347 2011-02-18 04:05:58 <foucist> oh, cool, clearcoin.. checking it out
348 2011-02-18 04:09:25 <mmarker> yea. add a human in the loop, you can get escrow
349 2011-02-18 04:09:31 <mmarker> Time for some sleep
350 2011-02-18 04:09:46 <mmarker> maybe block 108864 will be done by then
351 2011-02-18 04:12:28 <MT`AwAy> anyone interested into buying dedicated servers in bitcoins ?
352 2011-02-18 04:14:02 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: perhaps.
353 2011-02-18 04:14:24 <MT`AwAy> starting at ~60 btc/month
354 2011-02-18 04:14:33 <MT`AwAy> (price will vary depending on bitcoin exchange rates)
355 2011-02-18 04:14:52 <luke-jr> meh
356 2011-02-18 04:15:09 <luke-jr> better be a quad core at that cost
357 2011-02-18 04:15:19 <MT`AwAy> it is
358 2011-02-18 04:15:27 <MT`AwAy> AMD Athlon" II X4 with 8GB ram
359 2011-02-18 04:15:39 <MT`AwAy> hard disk is 2x1TB
360 2011-02-18 04:15:47 <jgarzik> that's a pretty good price
361 2011-02-18 04:15:47 <MT`AwAy> (default with soft RAID1)
362 2011-02-18 04:15:50 <Lachesis> difficulty change after this block! :)
363 2011-02-18 04:15:52 <luke-jr> hmm
364 2011-02-18 04:15:56 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: details? :P
365 2011-02-18 04:15:58 <foucist> MT`AwAy: is it in a datacenter?  unmetered?
366 2011-02-18 04:16:08 <MT`AwAy> unmetered
367 2011-02-18 04:16:11 <luke-jr> &
368 2011-02-18 04:16:13 <foucist> 10mbps or 100?
369 2011-02-18 04:16:19 <gribble> 36459.88692508
370 2011-02-18 04:16:19 <Lachesis> ;;bc,diff
371 2011-02-18 04:16:20 <MT`AwAy> 100Mbps
372 2011-02-18 04:16:28 <foucist> good deal
373 2011-02-18 04:16:35 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: what's the catch?
374 2011-02-18 04:16:36 <MT`AwAy> available either in Europe (delivery within 24 hours) or in US (delivery not guaranteed at this time)
375 2011-02-18 04:17:32 <foucist> yeah it sounds like a $150-$200/mo dedi  (not that i'm abreast of the current deals)
376 2011-02-18 04:17:35 <MT`AwAy> you get one ip, and can order up to 3 more for free (in Europe. In US there are some troubles with ips right now, it's not possible to order them until we finish fixing this... ipv6 broke everything)
377 2011-02-18 04:17:38 <foucist> i haven't really looked at dedis for a couple yearss
378 2011-02-18 04:17:52 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: pfft
379 2011-02-18 04:18:05 <luke-jr> 4 IPs total severely limits usefulness IMO
380 2011-02-18 04:18:10 <MT`AwAy> yes
381 2011-02-18 04:18:11 <MT`AwAy> I know
382 2011-02-18 04:18:16 <foucist> luke-jr: why's that?
383 2011-02-18 04:18:21 <foucist> luke-jr: worried about SEO type stuff?
384 2011-02-18 04:18:25 <MT`AwAy> not like I can say much about that at this time
385 2011-02-18 04:18:26 <luke-jr> but then again, I guess to be expected given that we're out of IPv4s globally
386 2011-02-18 04:18:30 <JFK911> well a couple blocks went
387 2011-02-18 04:18:36 <luke-jr> foucist: wtf is SEO?
388 2011-02-18 04:18:46 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, Search Engine Optimization
389 2011-02-18 04:18:50 <foucist> luke-jr: what do you need multiple IPs for?
390 2011-02-18 04:18:54 <MT`AwAy> some people think it's better for each site to have their own ips
391 2011-02-18 04:18:56 <luke-jr> foucist: for multiple customers
392 2011-02-18 04:18:58 <MT`AwAy> foucist, hosting VPS for example
393 2011-02-18 04:19:01 <JFK911> ;;bc,calc 400000
394 2011-02-18 04:19:03 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 4 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes, and 45 seconds
395 2011-02-18 04:19:04 <MT`AwAy> (or SSL certificates)
396 2011-02-18 04:19:19 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: SSL supports virtual hosting for years now
397 2011-02-18 04:19:21 <JFK911> OK this isn't so bad.
398 2011-02-18 04:19:25 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, not in MSIE
399 2011-02-18 04:19:29 <MT`AwAy> (on winXp)
400 2011-02-18 04:19:34 <JFK911> lol
401 2011-02-18 04:19:35 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: pretty sure in MSIE too
402 2011-02-18 04:19:36 <JFK911> it's 2011.
403 2011-02-18 04:19:42 <luke-jr> wtf is sending a bunch of 50 BTC coins?
404 2011-02-18 04:19:42 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, no, not if os = winxp
405 2011-02-18 04:19:51 <luke-jr> oh
406 2011-02-18 04:19:57 <luke-jr> someone is probably going to cash out
407 2011-02-18 04:20:00 <JFK911> Well, centos has an apache that doesn't make it easy, also.
408 2011-02-18 04:20:00 <MT`AwAy> I know, that's the only FUCKING CRAP stopping me from using SNI
409 2011-02-18 04:20:08 <JFK911> But that will be fixed soon
410 2011-02-18 04:20:17 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: so what ever happened to that contributor award?
411 2011-02-18 04:20:23 <luke-jr> JFK911: CentOS is crap, what do you expect?
412 2011-02-18 04:20:25 <JFK911> Hm
413 2011-02-18 04:20:44 <foucist> luke-jr: cash out how?
414 2011-02-18 04:20:51 <MT`AwAy> nanotube, haven't time to finish verifying the results
415 2011-02-18 04:20:56 <luke-jr> foucist: they're sending 500 BTC to a single account, probably MtGox or Market
416 2011-02-18 04:21:00 <MT`AwAy> nanotube, I'll finish that soon, publish it, retrieve bitcoin addresses for everyone, and send funds soon
417 2011-02-18 04:21:04 <MT`AwAy> probably this weekend
418 2011-02-18 04:21:06 <foucist> luke-jr: who's they? how do you know this?
419 2011-02-18 04:21:10 <luke-jr> foucist: #bitcoin-monitor
420 2011-02-18 04:21:11 <foucist> oh
421 2011-02-18 04:21:14 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: heh ok cool.
422 2011-02-18 04:21:17 <luke-jr> whoever owns 1PT3YvvKnNqT1513Vs9dZ59eU1gq7xQADc at the exchange
423 2011-02-18 04:23:20 <genjix> 2 questions:
424 2011-02-18 04:24:15 <genjix> - for an automated wallet backup service... how to stop DOS from people uploading their wallets too much? (want to backup after every send and not legitamately stop uploads)
425 2011-02-18 04:24:55 <luke-jr> genjix: impossible if it's encrypted
426 2011-02-18 04:25:06 <nanotube> genjix: diffs. if data didn't change... don't store.
427 2011-02-18 04:25:33 <genjix> wallet.dat stores data about transactions
428 2011-02-18 04:28:59 <genjix> so it does change after every send.
429 2011-02-18 04:29:07 <nanotube> genjix: yes... so, you said you /want/ to back up after every send, no?
430 2011-02-18 04:29:37 <afed> ;;bc,stats
431 2011-02-18 04:30:16 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108865 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 2014 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 6 hours, 49 minutes, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 145839.54770030
432 2011-02-18 04:30:21 <genjix> yeah
433 2011-02-18 04:30:34 <afed> 145839.54770030
434 2011-02-18 04:30:37 <afed> LOL
435 2011-02-18 04:30:41 <nanotube> afed: estimate not accurate until a afew hundred blocks in current chunk have been generated.
436 2011-02-18 04:30:44 <afed> nanotube: good to know
437 2011-02-18 04:30:49 <genjix> i think probably best solution is just to monitor for unusual activity and do lock downs when/if it happens.
438 2011-02-18 04:31:00 <afed> those are horrifying estimates
439 2011-02-18 04:31:06 <nanotube> afed: haha yea
440 2011-02-18 04:31:08 <afed> price of coins hasn't moved yet
441 2011-02-18 04:31:13 <afed> what are you expecting to see?
442 2011-02-18 04:31:20 <nanotube> the 36.5 k current difficulty is real, though.
443 2011-02-18 04:31:36 <genjix> ;;bc,mtgox
444 2011-02-18 04:31:39 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.0502,"low":1.03,"vol":4685,"buy":1.031,"sell":1.0402,"last":1.033}}
445 2011-02-18 04:31:42 <nanotube> afed: what am i expecting to see as far as what? price? difficulty estimate?
446 2011-02-18 04:31:44 <afed> price
447 2011-02-18 04:31:45 <nanotube> afed: well, price and diff are not directly connected. but in the long term, fundamentals point to "up" :)
448 2011-02-18 04:31:47 <afed> :)
449 2011-02-18 04:31:48 <afed> at some point we have to find the limit of the demand for bitcoins
450 2011-02-18 04:31:50 <JunK-Y> nanotube: imagine in 3 years what the diff will be :)
451 2011-02-18 04:31:53 <afed> i like building miners but i don't want to buy more hardware and see a crash
452 2011-02-18 04:31:55 <JFK911> Obviously the best time to mine is now!
453 2011-02-18 04:31:58 <JFK911> Build the max miners you can, because it will only be more difficult in the future
454 2011-02-18 04:32:00 <afed> which i should have done three months ago
455 2011-02-18 04:32:07 <nanotube> JunK-Y: heh yes i imagine. if the price keeps up with difficulty, the sky's the limit. :)
456 2011-02-18 04:32:23 <JFK911> Right, afed!  How much would you have now?
457 2011-02-18 04:32:35 <nanotube> afed: well, nobody can predict the future.... but at the moment, the bitcoin economy is still very small, so quite a bit of market share still remains to be captured. :)
458 2011-02-18 04:32:56 <JunK-Y> nanotube: so you're keeping all ur BTC :)  do you have a lot so far?
459 2011-02-18 04:33:23 <nanotube> JunK-Y: trade secret. :)
460 2011-02-18 04:33:51 <JunK-Y> i give u 0.01 BTC for that secret :P
461 2011-02-18 04:33:56 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
462 2011-02-18 04:33:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108866 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 2013 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 12 hours, 11 minutes, and 3 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 72759.18209693
463 2011-02-18 04:34:17 <nanotube> JFK911: not enough heh.
464 2011-02-18 04:34:20 <JFK911> Alert, Alert!  100% Difficulty Increase Pending!
465 2011-02-18 04:34:29 <nanotube> er, JunK-Y not enough :P
466 2011-02-18 04:37:59 <JFK911> Blocks are going fast!
467 2011-02-18 04:38:05 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
468 2011-02-18 04:38:07 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108868 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 2011 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 11 hours, 52 minutes, and 22 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 85054.29657794
469 2011-02-18 04:42:06 <nanotube> mmm wow
470 2011-02-18 04:42:37 <MT`AwAy> w0000t ?
471 2011-02-18 04:42:42 <MT`AwAy> Next Difficulty Estimate: 85054.29657794
472 2011-02-18 04:42:47 <MT`AwAy> 36k => 85k ?
473 2011-02-18 04:42:55 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: so&  more infos? :p
474 2011-02-18 04:43:04 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, like ?
475 2011-02-18 04:43:11 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: heh still inaccurate. give it anoher 300 blocks.
476 2011-02-18 04:43:27 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: uplinks, datacenter, etc
477 2011-02-18 04:43:51 <MT`AwAy> mh
478 2011-02-18 04:43:53 <MT`AwAy> oh yeah
479 2011-02-18 04:43:59 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, EU or US ?
480 2011-02-18 04:44:24 <luke-jr> both :p
481 2011-02-18 04:44:27 <MT`AwAy> XD
482 2011-02-18 04:44:46 <MT`AwAy> most traffic go through level3
483 2011-02-18 04:44:58 <MT`AwAy> and when there are better alternatives it uses those
484 2011-02-18 04:45:39 <luke-jr> ping test IP? :P
485 2011-02-18 04:45:40 <MT`AwAy> (gblx, cogent, interoute, ecix, de-cix, etc)
486 2011-02-18 04:46:00 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr, EU or US? (in fact I have no test server in EU right now)
487 2011-02-18 04:46:06 <luke-jr> both! :P
488 2011-02-18 04:47:50 <MT`AwAy> PM ? :p
489 2011-02-18 04:53:47 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: sure, but I'm heading to bed
490 2011-02-18 04:53:51 <MT`AwAy> :)
491 2011-02-18 04:53:54 <luke-jr> maybe will reply tomorrow sometime
492 2011-02-18 04:57:02 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
493 2011-02-18 04:57:04 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108870 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 2009 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 12 hours, 48 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 78772.29352750
494 2011-02-18 05:04:28 <citizen> how can the next difficulty be so much greater?
495 2011-02-18 05:05:34 <citizen> pool down?
496 2011-02-18 05:05:48 <foucist> because someone leaked the bitcoin secret to slashdot
497 2011-02-18 05:06:44 <ntosme2> oh wow, maybe that will put a damper on GPU purchases
498 2011-02-18 05:06:45 <Syke> just a run of lucky blocks generated too fast. at least I hope that's all it is!
499 2011-02-18 05:09:49 <JFK911> Maybe someone waited until now to start mining
500 2011-02-18 05:09:52 <JFK911> Someone big.
501 2011-02-18 05:10:00 <JFK911> So that their power wouldn't affect the difficulty level
502 2011-02-18 05:10:04 <JFK911> Until next time.
503 2011-02-18 05:10:26 <JFK911> It's as if someone waited until just the right time to bring an array of ASIC miners online.
504 2011-02-18 05:10:27 <nanotube> ;;bc,stats
505 2011-02-18 05:10:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108871 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 2008 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 16 hours, 36 minutes, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 66924.84238410
506 2011-02-18 05:10:35 <citizen> lol
507 2011-02-18 05:10:36 <nanotube> down by 12k already
508 2011-02-18 05:10:39 <nanotube> heh
509 2011-02-18 05:10:40 <citizen> wonder who that someone could be
510 2011-02-18 05:10:51 <nanotube> just don't put much stock into the estimate until a few hundred blocks have passed.
511 2011-02-18 05:11:29 <citizen> man, i really would like a way to stop video cards from going to sleep
512 2011-02-18 05:11:39 <citizen> i guess ill have to hookup a kvm switch
513 2011-02-18 05:11:52 <citizen> would be so much nicer if software could do it though :P
514 2011-02-18 05:15:30 <ntosme2> citizen: disable dpms?
515 2011-02-18 05:15:44 <ntosme2> mine don't sleep
516 2011-02-18 05:16:06 <midnightmagic_> NO, guys the difficulty is high like that because the estimate take a little while to settle down after it first changes.
517 2011-02-18 05:16:25 <genjix> any powerpuff girls fans here?
518 2011-02-18 05:19:33 <midnightmagic_> ;;bc,calc 11750000
519 2011-02-18 05:19:36 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 11750000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 3 hours, 42 minutes, and 7 seconds
520 2011-02-18 05:19:40 <midnightmagic_> bah
521 2011-02-18 05:24:07 <yay6892> bitcoin mining does not use too much bandwidth right? does anyone have some estimate of necessary monthly bw?
522 2011-02-18 05:26:25 <foucist> yay6892: you could probably do it with a 9600 baud modem
523 2011-02-18 05:26:48 <foucist> bw is probably less than 100mb a month?
524 2011-02-18 05:26:50 <foucist> just a guess
525 2011-02-18 05:27:41 <yay6892> my question sucked. I should have asked, if I use a mining pool the bw consumption is higher as far as I understand. is it much higher?
526 2011-02-18 05:28:16 <lfm> it might add up to quite a lot over a month cuz it is kinda steady
527 2011-02-18 05:28:34 <foucist> i can't imagine it be more than running an IRC server
528 2011-02-18 05:28:49 <foucist> and an IRC server with hundreds of users barely hits 1GB/mo
529 2011-02-18 05:29:11 <yay6892> i dont want to set up a new pool, just be a client
530 2011-02-18 05:29:15 <foucist> plain text doesn't take much
531 2011-02-18 05:29:19 <foucist> or hashes
532 2011-02-18 05:29:47 <lfm> it would probably help to restrict the number of connections sine the data can be duplicated on each connection
533 2011-02-18 05:29:50 <foucist> yay6892: yeah i would expect it to be less than half a gig a month (but i'm a complete bitcoin noob)
534 2011-02-18 05:30:26 <yay6892> ok thanks
535 2011-02-18 05:46:44 <midnightmagic_> yay6892: bitcoin mining only needs to happen between the bitcoin daemon, and the miner. that can be local. the rest of it, bitcoind->outside world, is comprised of a few hundred bytes a message. hardly anything.
536 2011-02-18 05:48:02 <midnightmagic_> yay: a pool is much higher because you're retrieving and solving much easier blocks. so it's based on an easier difficulty, which means more chatter, but not really that much.. why?
537 2011-02-18 05:49:14 <lfm> since he was asking per month i assume he was on some data plan either pay per byte or with a limit, some of those limits can be very low
538 2011-02-18 06:41:07 <ntosme2> does anyone see why this would be getting me such bad performance with Diablo? http://pastebin.com/WEpgwMTq
539 2011-02-18 06:41:25 <ntosme2> using sdk 2.1 and -w64
540 2011-02-18 06:42:05 <Diablo-D3> what driver?
541 2011-02-18 06:42:23 <slush> ntosme2: do you see any connection problems? I'm playing with server right now
542 2011-02-18 06:42:45 <ntosme2> slush: no, no issues
543 2011-02-18 06:42:51 <slush> ok
544 2011-02-18 06:42:54 <ntosme2> Diablo-D3: fglrx
545 2011-02-18 06:43:02 <Diablo-D3> ntosme2: that didnt answer the question
546 2011-02-18 06:43:03 <ntosme2> 2x 5770s
547 2011-02-18 06:43:09 <ntosme2> you want a version?
548 2011-02-18 06:43:15 <Diablo-D3> yes
549 2011-02-18 06:44:23 <ntosme2> 10.12
550 2011-02-18 06:44:31 <ntosme2> hmm you mentioned 10.11
551 2011-02-18 06:46:17 <Diablo-D3> 10.12 is broken for some people
552 2011-02-18 06:46:24 <Diablo-D3> also, did you configure your X right?
553 2011-02-18 06:46:42 <ntosme2> I actually thought 10.11 was an SDK release date heh
554 2011-02-18 06:46:55 <Diablo-D3> its a driver release date.
555 2011-02-18 06:47:01 <Diablo-D3> november 2011.
556 2011-02-18 06:47:04 <Diablo-D3> er 2010
557 2011-02-18 06:47:08 <ntosme2> ah
558 2011-02-18 06:49:34 <ntosme2> I believe X config is correct http://pastebin.com/kReH3TY7
559 2011-02-18 06:50:02 <ntosme2> I'm trying the 10.11, 1 sec
560 2011-02-18 06:50:46 <Diablo-D3> you ran aticonfig --initial --devices=all?
561 2011-02-18 06:50:51 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
562 2011-02-18 06:50:53 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108884 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 1995 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 11 hours, 2 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 50706.02535949
563 2011-02-18 06:52:29 <ntosme2> um... aticonfig: unrecognized option '--devices=all'
564 2011-02-18 06:52:30 <ntosme2> aticonfig: parsing the command-line failed.
565 2011-02-18 06:53:29 <Diablo-D3> er --adapter=all
566 2011-02-18 06:53:43 <Diablo-D3> ntosme2: Im asking if you ran that
567 2011-02-18 06:53:47 <Diablo-D3> you dont need to run it again if you did
568 2011-02-18 06:54:51 <ntosme2> I ran it for the first time just now
569 2011-02-18 06:55:34 <ntosme2> all it added was Option      "DesktopSetup" "horizontal"
570 2011-02-18 06:56:03 <Diablo-D3> heh, I suspect you already ran it then
571 2011-02-18 06:56:16 <ntosme2> perhaps
572 2011-02-18 06:57:40 <ntosme2> no change in hash rate
573 2011-02-18 06:57:47 <foucist> btw guys, i was wondering what makes the bitcoin sha hashing process so parallelizable for gpu etc?  has sha-256 always been parallelizable?  what about the associative/commutative/one-way hash stuff?
574 2011-02-18 07:00:03 <lfm> foucist: its not the SHA256 itself that is parallel, it is the thousands/millions of SHA256 needed to find a "winner" that can all run in parallel
575 2011-02-18 07:01:04 <lfm> every "hash" is separate and computed essentially serially. but khas/Mhash/Ghas can all be done at once if you have the hardware
576 2011-02-18 07:02:03 <foucist> lfm: how are the hashes gotten?
577 2011-02-18 07:03:01 <lfm> you create a block header which includes hashes of the previous block and the transactions you want to include. then compute SHA256(sha256(blk header))
578 2011-02-18 07:03:47 <lfm> the blk header is always 80 bytes fixed length this way
579 2011-02-18 07:05:21 <foucist> lfm: can two computers end up computing the same hash & getting 50BTC each or is there some communication to prevent that?
580 2011-02-18 07:05:50 <foucist> as i understand solving a block stops the other computers from getting the 50btc
581 2011-02-18 07:06:19 <lfm> no, the first txn is always the "reward" txn for 50 btc and it include the miner's key so every miner will have a unique TXN hash in the header
582 2011-02-18 07:08:43 <lfm> if two different blocks are found at the same time, it makes a "fork" off the block chain which is resolved by the next block found wich will have a previous block hash of the winner
583 2011-02-18 07:09:45 <lfm> the losing block is then orphaned and will never "mature" and is not worth anything
584 2011-02-18 07:10:32 <lfm> make sense?
585 2011-02-18 07:11:17 <phantomcircuit> foucist, yes it's possible, no it will not ever happen
586 2011-02-18 07:11:39 <lfm> actually forks ahppen fairly often
587 2011-02-18 07:11:49 <phantomcircuit> lfm, same hash
588 2011-02-18 07:11:51 <phantomcircuit> possible
589 2011-02-18 07:11:55 <phantomcircuit> ridiculously unlikely
590 2011-02-18 07:12:02 <lfm> oh no forks are different hashes
591 2011-02-18 07:12:02 <phantomcircuit> simultaneous blocks is not the  same
592 2011-02-18 07:12:09 <phantomcircuit> yeah
593 2011-02-18 07:12:25 <foucist> how many bitcoins have been discovered by now btw?
594 2011-02-18 07:12:35 <foucist> ;;bc,stats
595 2011-02-18 07:12:37 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108889 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 1990 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 54584.87551313
596 2011-02-18 07:12:45 <foucist> so 108889 * 50 ?
597 2011-02-18 07:12:56 <phantomcircuit> foucist, like 5.5 million ish
598 2011-02-18 07:13:02 <foucist> ok
599 2011-02-18 07:13:10 <lfm> ya assuming sha256 is designed right its liek one chance in 2^256 that you have two hashes the same. its unimaginable
600 2011-02-18 07:13:33 <phantomcircuit> foucist, 5444450
601 2011-02-18 07:13:46 <dissipate> what are the odds of two people generating the same ECDSA keys?
602 2011-02-18 07:13:51 <phantomcircuit> lfm, SHA-2 is designed wrong, but that's an issue for 5 years from now
603 2011-02-18 07:14:10 <gribble> 5444500.00000000
604 2011-02-18 07:14:10 <lfm> ;;bc,totalbc
605 2011-02-18 07:16:21 <Diablo-D3> well no
606 2011-02-18 07:16:25 <Diablo-D3> its not designed wrong
607 2011-02-18 07:16:27 <Diablo-D3> its just not perfect
608 2011-02-18 07:17:01 <lfm> maybe a bit of tradeoff for parcticality of computation or something
609 2011-02-18 07:17:16 <dissipate> what's wrong with it? can collisions be generated?
610 2011-02-18 07:17:44 <lfm> dissipate: I think only in special "weakened" versions of it so far
611 2011-02-18 07:18:13 <Diablo-D3> lfm: yeah
612 2011-02-18 07:18:17 <Diablo-D3> which is a bullshit theoretical attack
613 2011-02-18 07:18:22 <Diablo-D3> call me when you can do it on the real thing
614 2011-02-18 07:18:29 <lfm> exactly
615 2011-02-18 07:19:04 <dissipate> how many 'rounds' until it is secure?
616 2011-02-18 07:19:07 <Diablo-D3> the number of rounds chosen was the minimum for maximum blend
617 2011-02-18 07:19:11 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: 64
618 2011-02-18 07:19:28 <dissipate> so anything fewer than 64 and you can find collisions?
619 2011-02-18 07:19:36 <midnightmagic_> not quite.
620 2011-02-18 07:19:36 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, it's likely going to be broken within 10 years, and afaict there is no mechanism for transitioning to a new hash
621 2011-02-18 07:19:42 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: quite a few less
622 2011-02-18 07:19:59 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: the problem is, look at the hash size and the algo
623 2011-02-18 07:20:09 <midnightmagic_> transition to a new hash would just require a transition path and agreement of the majority of the network's miners/blockgenerators.
624 2011-02-18 07:20:10 <Diablo-D3> any less than 64 and you're not mixing some of the bits fully
625 2011-02-18 07:20:41 <Diablo-D3> so yes, if your mix is imperfect, you can attack it
626 2011-02-18 07:20:49 <Diablo-D3> with 64 rounds, its not imperfect.
627 2011-02-18 07:20:57 <echelon> looks like one of my tx's to a mybitcoin ewallet didn't get registered or something
628 2011-02-18 07:21:05 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic_, sure for future blocks, but how are you going to verify past blocks?
629 2011-02-18 07:21:08 <echelon> i sent the payment 4hrs ago or so
630 2011-02-18 07:21:16 <Diablo-D3> btw, it seems the only legitimate way of breaking sha256 is to actually find a collision
631 2011-02-18 07:22:24 <midnightmagic_> phantom: the transition would include transactions and preserve old owners. you generate a new genesis block, set the equivalent difficulty, and make sure the majority network has the transition path prepped.
632 2011-02-18 07:23:11 <midnightmagic_> one big giant genesis block of DOOOOOOOOOOOM
633 2011-02-18 07:23:39 <Diablo-D3> rest assured, the only big thing of doom is in my pants
634 2011-02-18 07:24:03 <Netsniper> ...
635 2011-02-18 07:24:09 <midnightmagic_> Diablo-D3: way to leave open scatological interpretations.
636 2011-02-18 07:24:36 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic_: my dick, you idiot.
637 2011-02-18 07:24:46 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, for purposes of bitcoin a much simpler partial preimage would do it
638 2011-02-18 07:24:52 <dissipate> i'm not sure exactly why SHA-256 was picked for Bitcoin. i'm sure satoshi had his reasons.
639 2011-02-18 07:25:01 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: currently most secure hash.
640 2011-02-18 07:25:12 <Diablo-D3> its had the most eyeballs stared at it and it remains secure
641 2011-02-18 07:25:16 <midnightmagic_> Diablo-D3: ah, you can't fool me. you doing that on purpose would mean you are a borderline comic genius. i choose the higher opinion until i have evidence to the contrary..
642 2011-02-18 07:25:38 <Netsniper> he's like sean connery from the jeopardy snl skits
643 2011-02-18 07:25:40 <lfm> actually he also uses ripem160 in at least one place
644 2011-02-18 07:25:46 <midnightmagic_> =]
645 2011-02-18 07:25:48 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: well, the problem is we use sha256(sha256()
646 2011-02-18 07:25:54 <dissipate> why pick a hash at all? there are other interesting things to compute. how about some traveling salesmen problems or something? :D
647 2011-02-18 07:26:15 <midnightmagic_> dissipate: its properties make it ideal for the purpose.
648 2011-02-18 07:26:27 <midnightmagic_> "ideal" i guess. pretend i'm making exaggerated airquotes.
649 2011-02-18 07:26:41 <Diablo-D3> anyhow, the hash needs to be at least enough bits to be considered secure, and known to have been attacked and survived
650 2011-02-18 07:27:01 <Diablo-D3> theres extremely few hashes that continue to survive the onslaught of college thesis papers.
651 2011-02-18 07:27:50 <phantomcircuit> lol
652 2011-02-18 07:27:58 <phantomcircuit> those crazy chinese need somehting to write about
653 2011-02-18 07:28:12 <dissipate> why couldn't a fixed byte prefix of an output of say Blow Fish with a known key be used?
654 2011-02-18 07:29:02 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: because that makes no sense
655 2011-02-18 07:29:26 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, why not?
656 2011-02-18 07:29:34 <phantomcircuit> dissipate, any block cipher can be used as block hash
657 2011-02-18 07:29:40 <phantomcircuit> dissipate, simply agree on a random key
658 2011-02-18 07:29:43 <dissipate> each client has the well known key
659 2011-02-18 07:29:45 <midnightmagic_> i think he's saying encrypt something into a blowfish block and if that block is < "difficulty" then you have a similar end result.
660 2011-02-18 07:29:47 <JFK911> Decent deal on a 5870 in store http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0320475
661 2011-02-18 07:29:48 <Diablo-D3> yeah but thats extremely bad usage
662 2011-02-18 07:29:56 <dissipate> bad usage??
663 2011-02-18 07:29:57 <Diablo-D3> dont use block cyphers for that
664 2011-02-18 07:30:07 <lfm> Diablo-D3: hes right in a theoretical sence that any encryption algo can also be used as a hash and vice versa
665 2011-02-18 07:30:13 <dissipate> seems to work to me.
666 2011-02-18 07:30:23 <Diablo-D3> lfm: yeah but its not designed to give what he wants
667 2011-02-18 07:30:36 <midnightmagic_> lfm: except those ciphers are bidirectional..
668 2011-02-18 07:30:46 <dissipate> it doesn't *have* to be 1 way, since what you are encrypting is already public.
669 2011-02-18 07:30:52 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic_: yes, yes it is.
670 2011-02-18 07:31:05 <Diablo-D3> btw, twofish replaced blowfish, and twofish didnt become AES
671 2011-02-18 07:31:14 <midnightmagic_> it was too slow for them.
672 2011-02-18 07:31:17 <Diablo-D3> so even if you need a block cipher, screw it, Im using AES
673 2011-02-18 07:31:32 <midnightmagic_> was it serpent that made the cut? shit i can't find it now.
674 2011-02-18 07:31:39 <dissipate> AES, the AES approved by the NSA? haha
675 2011-02-18 07:31:43 <phantomcircuit> rijndael or however you spell it
676 2011-02-18 07:31:47 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: no, rjindel
677 2011-02-18 07:31:53 <echelon> anyone knows who runs mybitcoin.com?
678 2011-02-18 07:31:54 <Diablo-D3> yeah, the unspellable
679 2011-02-18 07:32:15 <midnightmagic_> Diablo-D3: ah right
680 2011-02-18 07:32:35 <Diablo-D3> btw, with sha3
681 2011-02-18 07:32:40 <Diablo-D3> I bet skein will win
682 2011-02-18 07:32:46 <midnightmagic_> why would the NSA knowingly risk telling the government to use AES when they already knew a crack for it existed?
683 2011-02-18 07:33:12 <Diablo-D3> because AES really does function
684 2011-02-18 07:33:12 <dissipate> risk? so they can snoop in on everyone.
685 2011-02-18 07:33:25 <Diablo-D3> people have externally torn AES apart
686 2011-02-18 07:33:31 <Diablo-D3> the only flaws with AES are with implementations of it
687 2011-02-18 07:33:39 <Diablo-D3> _especially_ hardware impls
688 2011-02-18 07:33:46 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, give me one good reason SHA-256 must be used in this case. i doubt it does since what you are encrypting is public.
689 2011-02-18 07:33:52 <Diablo-D3> they always do it wrong and leak data somewhere
690 2011-02-18 07:34:22 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: its the only hash that both has a version with enough bits, and has survived the entire crypto community banging on it
691 2011-02-18 07:34:47 <midnightmagic_> i think he's really asking for a reason for twofish NOT to be used..
692 2011-02-18 07:34:48 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, IDF uses WHIRLPOOL
693 2011-02-18 07:34:59 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, as i said before, a fixed byte prefix of Blowfish or Twofish or AES or whatever could be used with a known key.
694 2011-02-18 07:34:59 <Mango-chan> 2http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3551.0
695 2011-02-18 07:35:00 <Mango-chan> oh wow
696 2011-02-18 07:35:01 <Mango-chan> LOL
697 2011-02-18 07:35:20 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: but that does not produce unique keys.
698 2011-02-18 07:35:24 <phantomcircuit> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3551.0
699 2011-02-18 07:35:28 <Diablo-D3> er, unique hashes
700 2011-02-18 07:35:37 <midnightmagic_> why do they keep saying BTC are anonymous?!
701 2011-02-18 07:35:45 <midnightmagic_> jesus..
702 2011-02-18 07:35:54 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, what do you mean by 'unique keys'? what unique keys?
703 2011-02-18 07:36:05 <Diablo-D3> the the line after it
704 2011-02-18 07:36:13 <phantomcircuit> Mango-chan, it's a trap
705 2011-02-18 07:36:19 <phantomcircuit> Mango-chan, a trap i say
706 2011-02-18 07:36:22 <dissipate> ???
707 2011-02-18 07:36:31 <dissipate> what line?
708 2011-02-18 07:36:41 <Diablo-D3> if I kill dissipate, will anyone care?
709 2011-02-18 07:37:10 <lfm> Diablo-D3: don't be a bully
710 2011-02-18 07:37:35 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, yes his mother
711 2011-02-18 07:37:54 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, how are they not unique? as far as i know blowfish etc. are as pseudo random as anything else.
712 2011-02-18 07:37:55 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: anyhow, Im not going to explain basic cryptography to you.
713 2011-02-18 07:38:12 <midnightmagic_> Diablo-D3: I can't actually think of a reason why bidirectionality is bad, but then i've been up for about 18 hours so i'm not thinking clearly.
714 2011-02-18 07:38:42 <dissipate> midnightmagic_, there isn't any reason because there is nothing to obscure. the info is all public anyways.
715 2011-02-18 07:39:02 <dissipate> midnightmagic_, and now Diablo-D3 is talking down to me because he can't name a single reason. sad. :(
716 2011-02-18 07:39:06 <midnightmagic_> you would need a key to do it..
717 2011-02-18 07:39:22 <midnightmagic_> that would be a complicating factor. i guess that's as good a reason as any.
718 2011-02-18 07:39:37 <dissipate> right, it would be hard coded into the clients. problem solved.
719 2011-02-18 07:40:13 <phantomcircuit> dissipate, yes but why reinvent the wheel?
720 2011-02-18 07:40:21 <phantomcircuit> or i guess reinvent the bicycle
721 2011-02-18 07:40:34 <midnightmagic_> you would have to encrypt with multiple rounds to ensure the result wasn't the size of the input..
722 2011-02-18 07:40:52 <dissipate> phantomcircuit, because hashes are easier to bust than full blown encryption
723 2011-02-18 07:40:55 <echelon> no one knows who the mybitcoin.com owner is?
724 2011-02-18 07:41:11 <midnightmagic_> meh, i'm sure if it were a better idea, they would've done it.
725 2011-02-18 07:41:15 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic_: bidirectionality means I just posioned your data
726 2011-02-18 07:41:29 <dissipate> midnightmagic_, add some extra salt data
727 2011-02-18 07:41:30 <midnightmagic_> "Tom Williams"
728 2011-02-18 07:41:32 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic_: for example, take hard drive
729 2011-02-18 07:41:38 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic_: AES encrypt it
730 2011-02-18 07:41:45 <Diablo-D3> take known data thats on that drive
731 2011-02-18 07:41:50 <Diablo-D3> instant AES fail.
732 2011-02-18 07:42:10 <Diablo-D3> given enough computational time, I can decrypt the drive because I know the un-encrypted form of some of the data.
733 2011-02-18 07:42:25 <Diablo-D3> the more data I know, the more fail it is.
734 2011-02-18 07:42:40 <midnightmagic_> but all you get back is what you already knew..
735 2011-02-18 07:42:49 <midnightmagic_> in the block-chain case, i mean.
736 2011-02-18 07:42:57 <dissipate> and this matters with public data, because?
737 2011-02-18 07:43:22 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, hash algorithms are basically a block cipher with constant key and a compression routine
738 2011-02-18 07:43:44 <midnightmagic_> dissipate: kind of an academic exercise. it would perhaps be better for you to be arguing about what, specifically, makes AES better than SHA256 as a "hashing" mechanism.
739 2011-02-18 07:43:55 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, and given the blocks are already basically the size of the hash the overhead from not using a compression routine wouldn't be significant
740 2011-02-18 07:44:00 <midnightmagic_> rather than asking us to tell you why it isn't..
741 2011-02-18 07:44:20 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: because then I can just start faking the chain.
742 2011-02-18 07:45:03 <midnightmagic_> how? the key would have to change to invert the encryption back to other data.
743 2011-02-18 07:45:12 <dissipate> i'd like to hear how that would be possible.
744 2011-02-18 07:45:26 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: and no, the compression does kick in, we're using 3 sha256 loops
745 2011-02-18 07:45:49 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: the 2 blocks on the first sha256 mixes enough for this to work well
746 2011-02-18 07:45:57 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: theres a paper on it
747 2011-02-18 07:45:59 <midnightmagic_> anyway, this kind of doesn't matter.. he's asking us to prove a negative.
748 2011-02-18 07:46:02 <Diablo-D3> cant find it
749 2011-02-18 07:46:42 <dissipate> midnightmagic_, as far as i know, hash algorithms are much weaker than standard symmetric encryption algorithms like AES and Blowfish.
750 2011-02-18 07:47:02 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: except what you said makes no sense.
751 2011-02-18 07:47:11 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, the compression routine is the most likely failure area
752 2011-02-18 07:47:17 <Diablo-D3> they're not "weaker", they're used for a completely different thing
753 2011-02-18 07:47:34 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: no, because dissipate wants to prefix the output
754 2011-02-18 07:47:38 <Diablo-D3> which is nonsensical
755 2011-02-18 07:47:45 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, o rly?
756 2011-02-18 07:48:08 <Diablo-D3> you'd really want to implement an actual mixer to not lose randomness from input....
757 2011-02-18 07:48:18 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, has someone found a collision with Blowfish? two keys that generate the same output on a give piece of data?
758 2011-02-18 07:48:29 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, oh well
759 2011-02-18 07:48:32 <Diablo-D3> and then you just might as well use an actually known working hash.
760 2011-02-18 07:48:35 <midnightmagic_> I'm pretty sure compression functions used as hashes are not as well-studied.
761 2011-02-18 07:48:56 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic_: the compression function of these hashes is to just keep flipping bits in the same block
762 2011-02-18 07:49:01 <Diablo-D3> its extremely well understood.
763 2011-02-18 07:49:14 <Diablo-D3> instead of shitting the block out, you keep operating on it
764 2011-02-18 07:49:14 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, AES(k,block) is what i was saying
765 2011-02-18 07:49:20 <phantomcircuit> which actually might be mroe secure
766 2011-02-18 07:49:47 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, since the data we are dealing with is public, i don't see why it is 'non-sensical'
767 2011-02-18 07:50:18 <phantomcircuit> although it would require either doubling the size of blocks (roughly) or decrypting the block everytime you accessed it
768 2011-02-18 07:50:37 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: and if you're so hard on for AES, just fucking use Whirlpool
769 2011-02-18 07:50:39 <midnightmagic_> dissipate: so, yea, *as symmetric ciphers* they might be more studied, but not as one-way compression functions.
770 2011-02-18 07:50:47 <dissipate> given a known padding string, and key, you encrypt the block using Blowfish, and take the first X bytes.
771 2011-02-18 07:51:26 <midnightmagic_> dissipate: that's not the best thing to do. you're effectively only hashing a small portion of the message then.
772 2011-02-18 07:51:53 <dissipate> what do you mean?
773 2011-02-18 07:51:59 <Diablo-D3> you're prefixing it instead of mixing it.
774 2011-02-18 07:52:05 <dissipate> you are hashing the entire message
775 2011-02-18 07:52:08 <Diablo-D3> and you'd want to use a cryptographically strong mixer.
776 2011-02-18 07:52:37 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: you input 128 bits into AES, and get 128 bits out
777 2011-02-18 07:52:39 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, i think what he's trying to say is
778 2011-02-18 07:52:50 <Diablo-D3> if your message is, say, 256 bits, and you throw out half the output... you've only kept the first 128 bits.
779 2011-02-18 07:53:02 <midnightmagic_> phantomcircuit: i'm starting to think he's being deliberately vague in order to have someone else fill in the blank spots for him.
780 2011-02-18 07:53:03 <Diablo-D3> so any message that contains the same first 128 bits always produces the same output.
781 2011-02-18 07:53:03 <phantomcircuit> if AES(k,PAD(block)) <= target
782 2011-02-18 07:53:12 <dissipate> but why does that matter?? we just need a signature, right?
783 2011-02-18 07:53:15 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic_, that might be possible
784 2011-02-18 07:53:31 <dissipate> phantomcircuit, who me?
785 2011-02-18 07:53:32 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: nope, all the outputs must be unique.
786 2011-02-18 07:53:43 <Diablo-D3> which is why you use a cryptographically strong mixer.
787 2011-02-18 07:53:50 <Diablo-D3> which means you just built yourself a hash.
788 2011-02-18 07:53:51 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, and they wouldn't be with Blowfish??
789 2011-02-18 07:54:02 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: no, because you just threw out most of your data.
790 2011-02-18 07:54:05 <Diablo-D3> you never mixed it
791 2011-02-18 07:54:16 <Diablo-D3> its a block cypher, it continually outputs more blocks
792 2011-02-18 07:54:28 <Diablo-D3> [03:52:50] <Diablo-D3> if your message is, say, 256 bits, and you throw out half the output... you've only kept the first 128 bits.
793 2011-02-18 07:54:31 <phantomcircuit> if AES(k,PAD(block),c) <= target
794 2011-02-18 07:54:32 <Diablo-D3> [03:53:03] <Diablo-D3> so any message that contains the same first 128 bits always produces the same output.
795 2011-02-18 07:54:43 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, uh no it doesn't
796 2011-02-18 07:54:46 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, IV
797 2011-02-18 07:54:55 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: I input 128, I get 128 out.
798 2011-02-18 07:55:00 <dissipate> um, if we are only going 1 way, why the heck does it matter?
799 2011-02-18 07:55:14 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: because all values must be unique
800 2011-02-18 07:55:18 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, do you know what block modes are?
801 2011-02-18 07:55:35 <dissipate> i encrypt the first block to get the signature for the second block, and i encrypt the second block to get the signature for the third block etc.
802 2011-02-18 07:55:45 <midnightmagic_> might be done with chaining.
803 2011-02-18 07:55:55 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: yes, and nowhere in the chain can there be two blocks with the same signature.
804 2011-02-18 07:56:06 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, why wouldn't the first X bytes be unique? Blowfish etc. are basically symmetric pseudo-random number generators.
805 2011-02-18 07:56:23 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, the issue you're describing simply does not exist :|
806 2011-02-18 07:56:39 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: by prefixing the output of a block cipher in as to throw away blocks, you cannot guarantee its unique
807 2011-02-18 07:57:03 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: especially since things like time and nonce are in _not_ in the first 128 bits output.
808 2011-02-18 07:57:06 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, if what you are saying is a problem then Blowfish etc. could be cracked easily. but i have to assume they are fairly good pseudo random number generators.
809 2011-02-18 07:57:17 <mbarkhau> why is the client so slow to start up?
810 2011-02-18 07:57:21 <Diablo-D3> no, Im saying you're an idiot that fails at math.
811 2011-02-18 07:57:32 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: same goes with you.
812 2011-02-18 07:57:32 <midnightmagic_> Diablo-D3: it's academic at this point, it kind of doesn't matter.
813 2011-02-18 07:57:48 <Diablo-D3> if you're not mixing the output, you _always get the same fucking hash for the first n bits of data_
814 2011-02-18 07:58:03 <Diablo-D3> and you must use a cryptographically secure mixer
815 2011-02-18 07:58:16 <Diablo-D3> which means you might as well use an _already existing cryptographically secure hash_
816 2011-02-18 07:59:25 <Diablo-D3> one thats already been chosen by the security community based on if it can always produce unique hashes, and how well distributed the output is
817 2011-02-18 07:59:43 <Diablo-D3> randomly doing dumb shit usually produces shit that fails at least one of those two.
818 2011-02-18 07:59:43 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, you use an IV and pretty much any block mode besides ECB
819 2011-02-18 08:00:12 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: thats like saying a kindergardener could have turned AES into Whirlpool
820 2011-02-18 08:00:50 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, except we dont need the compression routine
821 2011-02-18 08:00:58 <Diablo-D3> no, we need the mixer.
822 2011-02-18 08:01:10 <dissipate> i am playing around with the blowfish app here: http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/helpers/blowfish.pl  i am *not* getting the same prefix of bytes when i change a letter at the end of my input.
823 2011-02-18 08:01:14 <Diablo-D3> sha2 mixes exceptionally well.
824 2011-02-18 08:01:42 <genjix> Diablo-D3: hey, I'm trying to integrate automatic wallet backups into bitcoin... atm I've written a tool that generates an RSA keypair + random 80 character string, zips them up (encrypted random pass + pub/priv RSA key) and uploads it to a server. Then whenever you want to upload a backup you encrypt using secret pass + AES, and upload the file. If you ever reinstall and wish to restore your wallet, you need to get the AES pass and the website gives you 4
825 2011-02-18 08:01:50 <genjix> is that secure?
826 2011-02-18 08:02:06 <midnightmagic_> dissipate: kind of not a test which is even evidence of anything. :-(
827 2011-02-18 08:02:09 <phantomcircuit> indeed it was the compression routine in md5 that ultimately was  the flaw
828 2011-02-18 08:02:28 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: try gwstgaetgaestgaetgetethrfshrhsrhrshsrhsrhsrhsrhsrshshrshrhsrshshrshrshrwdeteteqtqex
829 2011-02-18 08:02:33 <Diablo-D3> and then change the last letter
830 2011-02-18 08:02:38 <Diablo-D3> notice how little of it changes
831 2011-02-18 08:02:48 <Diablo-D3> you're saying we should prefix it.
832 2011-02-18 08:03:03 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, funny it all looks different to me
833 2011-02-18 08:03:08 <phantomcircuit> what with my IV and CBC
834 2011-02-18 08:03:14 <genjix> Diablo-D3: any ideas on that?
835 2011-02-18 08:03:26 <Diablo-D3> genjix: go see how mozilla sync did it, actually
836 2011-02-18 08:04:16 <genjix> comb through mozilla's sourcecode? nothx
837 2011-02-18 08:04:38 <Diablo-D3> genjix: the technique, not the code
838 2011-02-18 08:04:43 <Diablo-D3> genjix: because they seem to have gotten it right
839 2011-02-18 08:04:43 <genjix> oh ok
840 2011-02-18 08:04:52 <phantomcircuit> genjix, gpg would make that a whole hell of a lot easier
841 2011-02-18 08:04:53 <Diablo-D3> genjix: the balance between ease of use and security seems to be right
842 2011-02-18 08:05:08 <genjix> heh this looks like a ready made solution
843 2011-02-18 08:05:18 <genjix> phantomcircuit: nope.
844 2011-02-18 08:05:30 <midnightmagic_> gpg? easier? :)
845 2011-02-18 08:05:43 <Diablo-D3> gpg is easier in the sense that you just run the commands
846 2011-02-18 08:05:57 <midnightmagic_> for newbs? thou dost dream thy heady dreams of yore, my friend. :)
847 2011-02-18 08:06:05 <genjix> ^ exactly.
848 2011-02-18 08:06:14 <genjix> i just want big shiny backup button
849 2011-02-18 08:06:19 <phantomcircuit> yeah
850 2011-02-18 08:06:20 <Diablo-D3> but the public/private pair is kind of fail for ease of use
851 2011-02-18 08:06:23 <genjix> auto-backups
852 2011-02-18 08:06:26 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, you are right, i concede on that one.
853 2011-02-18 08:06:28 <phantomcircuit> you wrap gpg in a gui script
854 2011-02-18 08:06:47 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: now, the big part of crypto hashes is the mixer
855 2011-02-18 08:06:47 <phantomcircuit> amazing
856 2011-02-18 08:06:49 <BlueMatt> ;;seen gavinandresen
857 2011-02-18 08:06:49 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 8 hours, 43 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> foucist:  yes, hash calculation is a double SHA256 on the block header that gives a 256-bit hash.
858 2011-02-18 08:06:59 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: where you keep feeding data into your block, and it keeps spinning
859 2011-02-18 08:06:59 <genjix> yay users get to mess around with their gpg accounts and learn about public/private key crypto
860 2011-02-18 08:07:03 <genjix> (no)
861 2011-02-18 08:07:21 <Diablo-D3> genjix: sync basically AES encrypts the data, and then shoves it into a mostly secure site
862 2011-02-18 08:07:29 <Diablo-D3> genjix: mozilla cant decrypt it because they dont have your key
863 2011-02-18 08:07:32 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic_ probably not, we know his real name this time
864 2011-02-18 08:07:39 <midnightmagic_> do we?
865 2011-02-18 08:07:40 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, i can see now how if you know any of the plain text it is much easier to get the key.
866 2011-02-18 08:07:48 <Diablo-D3> genjix: and I can go to any firefox installation, turn sync on, set it to my sync account, type in my AES password, and shit works
867 2011-02-18 08:07:55 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: yes
868 2011-02-18 08:07:57 <midnightmagic_> i haven't seen his driver's licence..
869 2011-02-18 08:08:01 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic_ yea he gave a talk at ignite a couple weeks ago, ie we know what he looks like etc
870 2011-02-18 08:08:07 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: its a known attack against AES crypto on mass storage devices.
871 2011-02-18 08:08:18 <phantomcircuit> genjix, uh no, you generate the keys for them
872 2011-02-18 08:08:22 <midnightmagic_> BlueMatt: I saw this just a moment ago. all we really have, far as i can tell, is his face. and who knows? that hair could've been a wig.
873 2011-02-18 08:08:39 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, well that sucks. i was going to do full drive encryption on my next Ubuntu install.
874 2011-02-18 08:08:40 <BlueMatt> lol ok fine, he might
875 2011-02-18 08:08:48 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: its not that it "sucks"
876 2011-02-18 08:08:54 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: its just that you need to know the data first
877 2011-02-18 08:09:00 <Diablo-D3> which is difficult
878 2011-02-18 08:09:08 <midnightmagic_> BlueMatt: join me in the land of paranoia and fear of abandonment.. it's fun to visit from time to time. :)
879 2011-02-18 08:09:12 <dissipate> well they would know the operating system...
880 2011-02-18 08:09:21 <Diablo-D3> they'd know what, say, binaries look like
881 2011-02-18 08:09:22 <dissipate> that's a good chunk of data right there
882 2011-02-18 08:09:26 <Diablo-D3> and what the file system might look like
883 2011-02-18 08:09:34 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
884 2011-02-18 08:09:35 <Diablo-D3> now, if I did that here, they'd be boned
885 2011-02-18 08:09:36 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108894 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 1985 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 2 hours, 3 minutes, and 35 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 51539.64575433
886 2011-02-18 08:09:37 <midnightmagic_> just do a luks drive and you'll be fine.
887 2011-02-18 08:09:41 <Diablo-D3> my fs doesnt look like anybody else's
888 2011-02-18 08:09:47 <Diablo-D3> because its been running for like 8 years
889 2011-02-18 08:09:58 <Diablo-D3> everythings been replaced at least once
890 2011-02-18 08:10:19 <dissipate> midnightmagic_, he is saying someone could get the key just by knowing some of the files on my drive.
891 2011-02-18 08:10:26 <genjix> i have no files :)
892 2011-02-18 08:10:27 <midnightmagic_> 8? fah! i've been running an evolving drive since 1992!!
893 2011-02-18 08:10:39 <Diablo-D3> 8 as in ext2 blew up
894 2011-02-18 08:10:45 <phantomcircuit> files are for pussies
895 2011-02-18 08:10:46 <midnightmagic_> dissipate: not really..
896 2011-02-18 08:10:54 <genjix> regularly delete 80% of junk, 10% on net, 10% on external backup + forget about it.
897 2011-02-18 08:10:55 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic_: its already a known attack.
898 2011-02-18 08:10:58 <phantomcircuit> all everything on this system exists entirely in ram
899 2011-02-18 08:11:00 <phantomcircuit> FOR SPEE!