1 2011-02-22 00:00:37 <lfm> xelister: depends on the model and overclock if any. I run my 5770 at stock clock with the clock stopped and it doesnt go over 75c
  2 2011-02-22 00:00:48 <ArtForz> yah
  3 2011-02-22 00:00:58 <bk128> I think I have a big enough fan on my cards that they'd be fine without their own fan
  4 2011-02-22 00:00:58 <lfm> fan stopped
  5 2011-02-22 00:01:06 <ArtForz> with decent case ventilation my 5770s happily ran at 0% fan
  6 2011-02-22 00:01:22 <ArtForz> 5870, not so much
  7 2011-02-22 00:01:24 <bk128> overclocked?
  8 2011-02-22 00:01:27 <ArtForz> yea
  9 2011-02-22 00:01:40 <ArtForz> they're still running without local fans
 10 2011-02-22 00:01:48 <ArtForz> all 5770s > 1GHz core
 11 2011-02-22 00:03:14 <bk128> ;;bc,calc 680000
 12 2011-02-22 00:03:15 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 680000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 2 days, 15 hours, 58 minutes, and 5 seconds
 13 2011-02-22 00:03:57 <lfm> ArtForz: you're still running 5770s? I thot you had retired them
 14 2011-02-22 00:04:26 <ArtForz> nah
 15 2011-02-22 00:04:40 <Sirius> I just started mining again after 1 year, 5970 & accelero cooler
 16 2011-02-22 00:05:28 <ArtForz> currently running 28*5970, 8*5870, 6*5770, 2*6870, 2*6970
 17 2011-02-22 00:05:54 <Sirius> nnice
 18 2011-02-22 00:06:04 <Sirius> where do you get all those?
 19 2011-02-22 00:06:08 <lfm> plus your new asics
 20 2011-02-22 00:06:44 <bk128> so you really finished a whole 2u of asics today?
 21 2011-02-22 00:06:44 <BlueMatt> what is your total GHash/s?
 22 2011-02-22 00:07:06 <BlueMatt> god the difficulty is just going up
 23 2011-02-22 00:07:08 <jgarzik> It's a Sirius!     Sirius, Do you mind if I CC you on an email to gavin about the bitcoin.org front page?  If that is OK, can you PM me your email?  Thanks.
 24 2011-02-22 00:07:12 <BlueMatt> faster and faster
 25 2011-02-22 00:07:35 <bk128> we need to get together and register as a reseller of ati cards.  get them at cost
 26 2011-02-22 00:07:39 <bk128> who's interested?
 27 2011-02-22 00:07:48 <ArtForz> yep, got 6.4Ghps of asics going now
 28 2011-02-22 00:07:55 <BlueMatt> I think ArtForz could do that by himself
 29 2011-02-22 00:08:00 <BlueMatt> with that kind of hardware
 30 2011-02-22 00:08:16 <bk128> really 6.4ghps under 300 watts?
 31 2011-02-22 00:08:18 <Sirius> jgarzik: ok
 32 2011-02-22 00:08:43 <ArtForz> yep
 33 2011-02-22 00:08:48 <ArtForz> total is now ~31Ghps
 34 2011-02-22 00:08:48 <bk128> you're sick :p
 35 2011-02-22 00:09:11 <BlueMatt> my god
 36 2011-02-22 00:09:14 <bk128> ;;bc,blocks
 37 2011-02-22 00:09:15 <gribble> 109593
 38 2011-02-22 00:09:17 <ArtForz> and I still got 12.8Ghps of asics to build
 39 2011-02-22 00:09:20 <BlueMatt> thats like half of slush's pool by yourself
 40 2011-02-22 00:09:27 <ArtForz> yep
 41 2011-02-22 00:09:32 <andrew12> i like how your asics are in numbers of ghashes
 42 2011-02-22 00:09:36 <soultcer> So the asic stuff is a success?
 43 2011-02-22 00:09:41 <ArtForz> not really
 44 2011-02-22 00:09:43 <andrew12> you count them by the number of ghashes they produce
 45 2011-02-22 00:09:53 <ArtForz> at the current high $/Mhash, GPUs make more sense
 46 2011-02-22 00:09:54 <bk128> each one is 200mhash
 47 2011-02-22 00:10:01 <Necr0s> What work is there to build them?  Soldering connectors onto boards and such?
 48 2011-02-22 00:10:18 <bk128> ArtForz: but you can put so many more asics in a computer.  and they use like 1/10 power
 49 2011-02-22 00:10:23 <Necr0s> and other components
 50 2011-02-22 00:10:40 <bk128> Necr0s: reflow soldering BGA's
 51 2011-02-22 00:10:47 <JFK911> ArtForz: Part of the reason your chips cost so much is due to the low production count right
 52 2011-02-22 00:10:58 <ArtForz> not really
 53 2011-02-22 00:11:08 <Diablo-D3> they cost so much because HE FABBED CHIPS
 54 2011-02-22 00:11:09 <JFK911> They'd cost the same if you ordered 10x as many?
 55 2011-02-22 00:11:27 <ArtForz> about 25% less per chip
 56 2011-02-22 00:11:27 <JFK911> Diablo-D3: Tooling and setup is a lot of the cost
 57 2011-02-22 00:11:29 <lfm> after the first setup costs
 58 2011-02-22 00:11:35 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: you dont really get those sort of discounts until you're doing millions
 59 2011-02-22 00:11:37 <Necr0s> That does look like a tricky thing to solder.
 60 2011-02-22 00:11:41 <ArtForz> not really
 61 2011-02-22 00:11:43 <Necr0s> What's the pin count on yours?
 62 2011-02-22 00:11:45 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: hes not really being boned on those
 63 2011-02-22 00:11:47 <andrew12> ArtForz: how much are they each?
 64 2011-02-22 00:11:56 <ArtForz> it's a bga484 with some of the inner pins missing
 65 2011-02-22 00:11:56 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: hes doing that existing silicon framework weirdo shit
 66 2011-02-22 00:12:01 <Diablo-D3> iwhatever its called
 67 2011-02-22 00:12:07 <JFK911> Diablo-D3: When I contract crap I always get much better prices on 100k piece rather than 1k
 68 2011-02-22 00:12:23 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: whats it called?
 69 2011-02-22 00:12:28 <JFK911> Diablo-D3: Yeah it's like getting a masked ROM
 70 2011-02-22 00:12:29 <Necr0s> whew
 71 2011-02-22 00:12:31 <ArtForz> structured asic
 72 2011-02-22 00:12:36 <Diablo-D3> yeah that
 73 2011-02-22 00:12:48 <Diablo-D3> which is a shitload cheaper than doing it for real
 74 2011-02-22 00:12:49 <Necr0s> that's a lot of traces too.
 75 2011-02-22 00:12:54 <ArtForz> not really
 76 2011-02-22 00:12:54 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: btw, when you planning on doing it for real?
 77 2011-02-22 00:13:04 <ArtForz> I'm only using like a dozen I/Os total
 78 2011-02-22 00:13:15 <ArtForz> not anytime soon
 79 2011-02-22 00:13:16 <JFK911> ArtForz: What did you do about mounting/breakout of BGA?
 80 2011-02-22 00:13:31 <ArtForz> 4-layer board
 81 2011-02-22 00:13:33 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: btw, when you start your company, remember to give me some stock
 82 2011-02-22 00:13:39 <andrew12> heh
 83 2011-02-22 00:13:40 <ArtForz> I/Os are all in the outermost row
 84 2011-02-22 00:13:41 <JFK911> oh.  chinese fab?
 85 2011-02-22 00:13:50 <Diablo-D3> hey, it COULD be a mexican fab
 86 2011-02-22 00:13:51 <ArtForz> so routing is pretty easy
 87 2011-02-22 00:14:08 <ArtForz> middle layers are gnd and core supply plane
 88 2011-02-22 00:14:10 <JFK911> Diablo-D3: Havent found a place in mexico that's as friendly as some chinese places i know :)
 89 2011-02-22 00:14:18 <bk128> ArtForz do you make solder paste stencils?  or where do you get them from?
 90 2011-02-22 00:14:21 <Necr0s> Yeah, I imagine that helps.
 91 2011-02-22 00:14:36 <ArtForz> using lasercut 100u stainless stencils
 92 2011-02-22 00:14:40 <Necr0s> Do you do any of the routing design by hand, or is it all computer determined?
 93 2011-02-22 00:14:46 <ArtForz> the boards?
 94 2011-02-22 00:14:46 <bk128> you have a lasercutter?
 95 2011-02-22 00:14:54 <Diablo-D3> Im trying to imagine a chip that takes like 300 watts
 96 2011-02-22 00:14:57 <ArtForz> good old eagle
 97 2011-02-22 00:14:57 <Necr0s> yeah
 98 2011-02-22 00:15:01 <Diablo-D3> and does like, two digit ghash/sec
 99 2011-02-22 00:15:14 <ArtForz> Diablo-D3: uneconomic
100 2011-02-22 00:15:17 <JFK911> eagle cad pisses me off
101 2011-02-22 00:15:24 <bk128> <3 eagle
102 2011-02-22 00:15:27 <ArtForz> why? it works pretty fine here
103 2011-02-22 00:15:27 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: well untill you replace half the network
104 2011-02-22 00:15:35 <ArtForz> still uneconomic
105 2011-02-22 00:15:39 <Diablo-D3> feh whatever
106 2011-02-22 00:15:39 <JFK911> I grew to like the huge part libraries in Cadence
107 2011-02-22 00:15:43 <ArtForz> making 10 smaller chips is usually cheaper than 1 big one
108 2011-02-22 00:15:55 <ArtForz> I hate standard part libraries
109 2011-02-22 00:15:55 <JFK911> And I dont mind not making my own layouts/parts in eagle
110 2011-02-22 00:15:57 <Diablo-D3> thats not what I mean
111 2011-02-22 00:16:08 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: you're still stuck on structured asic
112 2011-02-22 00:16:12 <Diablo-D3> so you cant crank the speed up
113 2011-02-22 00:16:17 <ArtForz> yes
114 2011-02-22 00:16:28 <ArtForz> on true asic yield goes down with chip size (duh)
115 2011-02-22 00:16:36 <jgarzik> Sirius: Thanks.  Sent.  It seems you were already CC'd on the 0.3.20 release message from gavin, so I apparently did not need to ask...
116 2011-02-22 00:16:47 <ArtForz> also, packaging becomes a lot more costly once you *need* thermally enhanced flip-chip
117 2011-02-22 00:17:09 <andrew12> I wonder how many kWh total are wasted^H^H^H^H^H^Hused for bitcoin mining
118 2011-02-22 00:17:09 <ArtForz> either the footprints are flat out wrong or for some really weird process setup
119 2011-02-22 00:17:10 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah, but if you did true asic, you could make the dies much smaller and crank the speed up
120 2011-02-22 00:17:14 <ArtForz> yes
121 2011-02-22 00:17:27 <Diablo-D3> which means insane watt efficiency
122 2011-02-22 00:17:28 <JFK911> ArtForz: Cadence gives parts that are manufacturer specific, theres also a script that creates standard footprints easily
123 2011-02-22 00:17:32 <ArtForz> but you still wouldnt go much above 10W per chip or so
124 2011-02-22 00:17:50 <Necr0s> andrew12, you could ask the same question about running World of Warcraft.
125 2011-02-22 00:17:56 <andrew12> bahahaha
126 2011-02-22 00:17:59 <Necr0s> I'll bet the answer would be a larger number.
127 2011-02-22 00:18:12 <ArtForz> well, I pretty much got all standard footprints I need adjusted to my liking
128 2011-02-22 00:18:26 <ArtForz> for example my 0402s have REALLY small pads
129 2011-02-22 00:18:38 <JFK911> heh 0402
130 2011-02-22 00:18:47 <JFK911> masochist detected
131 2011-02-22 00:18:54 <ArtForz> 0.6mm x 0.5mm on 1.0mm centers
132 2011-02-22 00:19:12 <ArtForz> IPC is somethign huge like 0.8 x 0.7
133 2011-02-22 00:19:17 <ArtForz> = tombstone galore
134 2011-02-22 00:19:41 <ArtForz> I liek 0402s
135 2011-02-22 00:20:08 <ArtForz> they're really not harder to place/solder than 0603s and take up a lot less board space
136 2011-02-22 00:20:28 <bk128> I need a magnifier....
137 2011-02-22 00:20:35 <bk128> using 0805s here
138 2011-02-22 00:20:46 <JFK911> when you have pick & place and automated test 0402s are probably very convenient
139 2011-02-22 00:20:49 <ArtForz> and they're usually a lot cheaper because 0402 is used a shitload in mobile stuff
140 2011-02-22 00:21:08 <bk128> how many watts are 0402's usually rated at?  for R's
141 2011-02-22 00:21:14 <andrew12> i wish i knew what you guys you were talking about
142 2011-02-22 00:21:36 <ArtForz> 0805 and above is for hobbyists, power resistors and huge MLC caps :P
143 2011-02-22 00:22:12 <JFK911> Prefer 2.54mm grid here
144 2011-02-22 00:22:32 <ArtForz> erm, I also work with 0204s on 2.54mm grid protoboard
145 2011-02-22 00:22:42 <ArtForz> they fit nicely between pads ;)
146 2011-02-22 00:22:51 <xelister> ArtForz: wow, so it will not stop, but heat the shit out of self even going to damage or catch fire? wtf.
147 2011-02-22 00:23:10 <ArtForz> with some coaxing you can do the same thing with 0603s
148 2011-02-22 00:23:12 <xelister> ArtForz: well a script with gettemp could guard it.. but still disssapointing
149 2011-02-22 00:23:54 <andrew12> so when will we have bitcoin mining usb sticks?
150 2011-02-22 00:24:08 <ArtForz> using 0204 and 0603 100n caps made my protoboard designs look a lot cleaner
151 2011-02-22 00:24:41 <ArtForz> also fun, cutting pads in half and soldering SOICs to em ;)
152 2011-02-22 00:25:00 <JFK911> SOIC is rather easy
153 2011-02-22 00:25:04 <bk128> I got these smd kits :) http://www.analogtechnologies.com/products.html
154 2011-02-22 00:25:09 <JFK911> I like to use photo-resist
155 2011-02-22 00:25:10 <ArtForz> on 2.54mm grid protoboard?
156 2011-02-22 00:25:31 <ArtForz> havent etched stuff myself for a long time
157 2011-02-22 00:25:55 <bk128> I wish I could afford to get boards made.  etching sucks
158 2011-02-22 00:26:23 <bk128> although I did find blue toner transfer paper, works a lot better than the staples photo paper.  never done photoresist
159 2011-02-22 00:26:24 <mmarker> Diablo-D3: in short. ArtForz has good eyes and steady hands.
160 2011-02-22 00:26:26 <andrew12> Diablo-D3: welcome to the club
161 2011-02-22 00:26:31 <JFK911> bk128: its something like $125 for 150 in ^2
162 2011-02-22 00:26:38 <JFK911> and they come in a week
163 2011-02-22 00:26:51 <JFK911> they arent the best tho, i mean, they could be more flat
164 2011-02-22 00:27:06 <ArtForz> for one-offs I just get em locally made
165 2011-02-22 00:27:20 <bk128> I got the 200 each of 128 values of 0805 resistors
166 2011-02-22 00:27:27 <ArtForz> about $2.50/sqin, but who gives a shit
167 2011-02-22 00:27:55 <bk128> and the 50 each of 83 values of 0805 caps
168 2011-02-22 00:27:57 <ArtForz> doublesided, 5 mil track/gap, with resist
169 2011-02-22 00:28:13 <ArtForz> smallest drill diameter 0.2mm ;)
170 2011-02-22 00:28:51 <ArtForz> = 0.45mm outside pad dia for vias
171 2011-02-22 00:29:02 <mmarker> grr, now back to figuring out why the hell my code isn't working.
172 2011-02-22 00:29:32 <ArtForz> and you can pull crap like running 3 traces between 0.1" header pads
173 2011-02-22 00:30:03 <JFK911> lol
174 2011-02-22 00:31:01 <ArtForz> one thing I also like to do, faking extra layers with bridges
175 2011-02-22 00:31:03 <lfm> not likely to do that at home
176 2011-02-22 00:31:45 <JFK911> bk128: photo resist is easy, you can expose him in the sunlight
177 2011-02-22 00:31:48 <ArtForz> = instead of running a trace on the top, replace large parts of it with a wire bridge to avoid breaking the gnd plane I have there
178 2011-02-22 00:32:06 <JFK911> The stuff gets really hard, too, there is less 'creep' than with toner
179 2011-02-22 00:32:37 <bk128> JFK911: It seems like we haven't had sunlight here in days in Chicago
180 2011-02-22 00:32:54 <ArtForz> sun... light... ?
181 2011-02-22 00:33:08 <bk128> I thought you needed a stronger UV source too
182 2011-02-22 00:33:20 <JFK911> may depend on the resin
183 2011-02-22 00:33:22 <ArtForz> nah, sunlight works fine for photoresist
184 2011-02-22 00:33:29 <JFK911> but my colleague says he used fluoro lamps
185 2011-02-22 00:33:43 <ArtForz> a 500W halogen also works pretty well
186 2011-02-22 00:33:52 <JFK911> heh take the glass off probably.
187 2011-02-22 00:33:56 <ArtForz> yep
188 2011-02-22 00:34:25 <ArtForz> and make sure you have some airflow to stop shit from bursting into flames ;)
189 2011-02-22 00:34:53 <ArtForz> I just dont really like messing with etching anymore
190 2011-02-22 00:35:16 <ArtForz> way too much work for a few $ saved
191 2011-02-22 00:35:17 <bk128> same.   Drilling is just as bad
192 2011-02-22 00:35:33 <ArtForz> and you still can't do doublesided or vias under ICs easily
193 2011-02-22 00:35:44 <JFK911> its not hard to line up the double side
194 2011-02-22 00:35:50 <JFK911> through plating is nice though.
195 2011-02-22 00:35:53 <ArtForz> yep
196 2011-02-22 00:36:03 <ArtForz> been there, done that, said fuck it ;)
197 2011-02-22 00:36:14 <bk128> I hate how the copper oxidizes.  have to take the extra step of spraying it with lacquer or something
198 2011-02-22 00:36:26 <JFK911> soldermask is nice like plating
199 2011-02-22 00:37:02 <ArtForz> yay for HAL Sn and solder resist
200 2011-02-22 00:37:32 <JFK911> yeah thats another thing too.  the tin flashing
201 2011-02-22 00:37:34 <ArtForz> leave a PCB sitting for a year, clean it with a mild abrasive and it's still perfectly solderable
202 2011-02-22 00:38:15 <ArtForz> and I fucking hate lead-free solder for manual work with a passion
203 2011-02-22 00:38:34 <ArtForz> shit never flows like it's supposed to
204 2011-02-22 00:38:41 <JFK911> why use it in those circumstances?
205 2011-02-22 00:38:50 <JFK911> I don't even know where to buy it
206 2011-02-22 00:39:10 <ArtForz> because getting leaded around here is getting somewhat tricky
207 2011-02-22 00:39:45 <JFK911> it's probably widely available in those 0.6-kg bars, but, so is the Pb/Sn
208 2011-02-22 00:39:58 <ArtForz> but then who needs that?
209 2011-02-22 00:40:07 <ArtForz> nobody does wave soldering anymore
210 2011-02-22 00:40:11 <JFK911> You really can't buy wire solder with Pb anymore?
211 2011-02-22 00:40:18 <ArtForz> you can
212 2011-02-22 00:40:29 <Diablo-D3> no because of THINK OF THE CHILDRENW WAAAAAAAARGHBL
213 2011-02-22 00:40:48 <ArtForz> but it's already more expensive than the standard SAC
214 2011-02-22 00:41:01 <ArtForz> err.. SnAgCu :P
215 2011-02-22 00:42:01 <JFK911> http://www.mouser.com/catalog/catalogUSD/643/2255.pdf
216 2011-02-22 00:42:19 <JFK911> There is more of the "no clean" garbage than "No Pb"
217 2011-02-22 00:42:47 <ArtForz> well, no clean is pretty much a must nowadays
218 2011-02-22 00:42:58 <JFK911> There are restrictions on solvents too?
219 2011-02-22 00:43:01 <ArtForz> try getting flux residue out under a leadless
220 2011-02-22 00:43:05 <JFK911> Oh
221 2011-02-22 00:43:47 <ArtForz> and the water-soluble fluxes usually all are corrosive
222 2011-02-22 00:44:20 <ArtForz> so you use the no-clean shit that just leaves a inert residue
223 2011-02-22 00:44:31 <JFK911> Looks like mouser doesn't sell any paste at all
224 2011-02-22 00:44:53 <JFK911> If only RoHS paste was available, that wouldn't seem unreasonable to me
225 2011-02-22 00:44:57 <ArtForz> btw, theres now no-clean fluxes that actually create a residue acting a lot lik conformal coating ;)
226 2011-02-22 00:45:00 <JFK911> There is no reason to use Pb in automated process
227 2011-02-22 00:45:05 <ArtForz> there is
228 2011-02-22 00:45:11 <ArtForz> for hi-rel and space stuff
229 2011-02-22 00:45:30 <JFK911> That's not much of production tho
230 2011-02-22 00:45:34 <ArtForz> yep
231 2011-02-22 00:45:55 <JFK911> You should get a free gram of non-rohs paste with every rad-hard chip you buy
232 2011-02-22 00:46:06 <JFK911> Solves that problem.
233 2011-02-22 00:46:25 <ArtForz> well, actually aviation + medical is probably large enough to make sure the snbp will stay avilable for the next few decades
234 2011-02-22 00:46:58 <JFK911> I was under the impression that processes had matured such that almost all of the issues were resolved
235 2011-02-22 00:47:08 <ArtForz> what issues?
236 2011-02-22 00:47:16 <ArtForz> tin whisker growth? not solved.
237 2011-02-22 00:47:27 <ArtForz> joint fracture? not solved.
238 2011-02-22 00:47:57 <JFK911> well i don't know!  there are some xbox360 that didn't die.
239 2011-02-22 00:48:03 <jgarzik> hey, cool
240 2011-02-22 00:48:05 <JFK911> that proves it's possible
241 2011-02-22 00:48:06 <jgarzik> the bitcoin lottery still exists
242 2011-02-22 00:48:08 <jgarzik> http://taabl.datlatec.com/
243 2011-02-22 00:48:26 <ArtForz> awful wetting? not solved. (unless you like soldering w/ protective gas) ...
244 2011-02-22 00:49:10 <xelister> lol    <Diablo-D3> no because of THINK OF THE CHILDRENW WAAAAAAAARGHBL
245 2011-02-22 00:49:18 <Diablo-D3> LOL
246 2011-02-22 00:49:20 <Diablo-D3> whiskers!
247 2011-02-22 00:49:32 <xelister> too bad Diablo-D3 still pretends to ignore me because Im pretending I slept with his other sister :P
248 2011-02-22 00:49:43 <JFK911> right, i should never ever face that problem because i'm designing with packages from ten+ years ago
249 2011-02-22 00:49:49 <Diablo-D3> those are so fucking hilarious
250 2011-02-22 00:50:05 <ArtForz> tin whiskers probably killed more sats than microasteroids ;)
251 2011-02-22 00:50:10 <andrew12> ;;later notes
252 2011-02-22 00:50:11 <gribble> I currently have notes waiting for alkor, bitcoin-otc, m0m, and slush.
253 2011-02-22 00:50:19 <Diablo-D3> hrm
254 2011-02-22 00:50:24 <Diablo-D3> if you coated everything in plastic
255 2011-02-22 00:50:29 <Diablo-D3> would tin whiskers go away?
256 2011-02-22 00:50:31 <ArtForz> no
257 2011-02-22 00:50:37 <ArtForz> they simply grow thouhg it
258 2011-02-22 00:50:42 <ArtForz> *through
259 2011-02-22 00:50:47 <Diablo-D3> ye gods
260 2011-02-22 00:51:01 <Diablo-D3> even industrial impact resistent shit?
261 2011-02-22 00:51:06 <ArtForz> yep
262 2011-02-22 00:51:10 <Diablo-D3> fffffff
263 2011-02-22 00:51:39 <ArtForz> tin whiskers are fucking impressive
264 2011-02-22 00:53:02 <xelister> andrew12: hey. you speak english?
265 2011-02-22 00:53:09 <xelister> andrew12: any idea what this astronauts are up to
266 2011-02-22 00:55:19 <JFK911> http://www.pcbdesign007.com/pages/zone.cgi?artcatid=&a=71147&artid=71147&pg=3 "and tin whiskers will not be an issue--they have not been mitigated, but eliminated"
267 2011-02-22 00:55:22 <JFK911> Snake oil?
268 2011-02-22 00:55:42 <JFK911> It's a sales pitch.
269 2011-02-22 00:57:02 <ArtForz> and probably expensive as hell
270 2011-02-22 00:57:09 <jgarzik> heh
271 2011-02-22 00:57:18 <ArtForz> if I read this right, they're electroless plating populated boards
272 2011-02-22 00:57:24 <jgarzik> prices for /used/ 5970's are over $500 on ebay
273 2011-02-22 01:00:13 <ArtForz> I like that part
274 2011-02-22 01:00:42 <ArtForz> PERMANENTLY suppresses whisker growth (> 5 yrs according to studies)
275 2011-02-22 01:00:47 <CIA-57> bitcoin: tcatm master * r6696bee / db.cpp : Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/tcatm/bitcoin into tcatm-master - http://bit.ly/gAJ8sU
276 2011-02-22 01:01:05 <ArtForz> thats a pretty low value of "permanently"
277 2011-02-22 01:01:51 <JFK911> lol
278 2011-02-22 01:05:55 <JFK911> Utilization of procurement specifications that have clear restrictions against the use of pure tin plating is highly recommended.
279 2011-02-22 01:06:54 <JFK911> NASA GSFC experiments have shown that use of Arathane 5750 (formerly Uralane 5750) conformal when applied uniformly to a nominal 2 to 3 mils thickness can provide significant benefit by containing whisker growth outward through the coating.
280 2011-02-22 01:08:28 <ArtForz> = we have found some half-assed solutions to problems caused by completely pointless laws
281 2011-02-22 01:08:50 <dissipate> ArtForz, such as?
282 2011-02-22 01:08:59 <ArtForz> RoHS ?
283 2011-02-22 01:09:20 <dissipate> dunno what that is
284 2011-02-22 01:09:21 <JFK911> People said that smog control of automobiles and industrial sites was pointless and that we couldn't legislate clean air.  Well look what's happened forty years later.
285 2011-02-22 01:09:26 <ArtForz> thats the whole reason people are trying to make lead-free work
286 2011-02-22 01:09:33 <ArtForz> metallic lead. on PCBs.
287 2011-02-22 01:09:55 <JFK911> As long as people are buying a new iPhone every year and throwing their old one in a sewer drain, I'm for it.
288 2011-02-22 01:10:27 <ArtForz> well, thanks to lead-free it'll be dead after a few years anyways
289 2011-02-22 01:11:49 <JFK911> That just seems to happen to xbox.
290 2011-02-22 01:12:20 <ArtForz> it's just metallic lead. unless you expose it to pretty weird conditions it'll just sit there looking lead-y
291 2011-02-22 01:12:38 <luke-jr> casascius should be banned from wiki & forums, at least temp so he quits trolling -.-
292 2011-02-22 01:12:40 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: ^
293 2011-02-22 01:12:45 <JFK911> Like a waste shredder or waste incinerator?
294 2011-02-22 01:12:47 <JFK911> :D
295 2011-02-22 01:13:16 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr: I can't ban from forums
296 2011-02-22 01:13:36 <ArtForz> actually that shit was solved decades ago
297 2011-02-22 01:14:01 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: dunno who can, I just noticed you run the wiki
298 2011-02-22 01:14:24 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: and he's trolled numerous times there; his lack of punishment is apparently attracting more trolls
299 2011-02-22 01:15:38 <luke-jr> I count 3 times he's personally vandalised the Tonal BitCoin page, and a couple extra he's inspired
300 2011-02-22 01:15:58 <MT`AwAy> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Radial_BitCoin <- he got some nice trolling going on
301 2011-02-22 01:16:45 <ArtForz> seriously, it's just lead, not fucking plutonium
302 2011-02-22 01:17:12 <JFK911> Well, it's not supposed to be where anything can breathe/eat it.
303 2011-02-22 01:17:19 <ArtForz> so... like on rooftops?
304 2011-02-22 01:17:47 <JFK911> Like in a house, or on your skin
305 2011-02-22 01:17:55 <TheKid> luke-jr: how is he trolling
306 2011-02-22 01:18:05 <ArtForz> like, in water pipes?
307 2011-02-22 01:18:13 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: The parody is one thing, and I don't personally mind it (though it might or might not be against wiki policy)-- it's the vandalism of the TBC page that's the real problem
308 2011-02-22 01:18:17 <ArtForz> oh wait, we even still got those in plenty areas. whoops.
309 2011-02-22 01:18:27 <JFK911> you do?
310 2011-02-22 01:18:31 <ArtForz> yep
311 2011-02-22 01:19:14 <ArtForz> if the water isnt too acidic, it doesnt leach enough to be a problem
312 2011-02-22 01:19:46 <JFK911> You couldn't install it in that application anymore
313 2011-02-22 01:19:49 <ArtForz> nope
314 2011-02-22 01:20:39 <JFK911> Altho I'm not sure vinyl is a good idea either
315 2011-02-22 01:20:45 <ArtForz> well, you kinda have to if you have a building with historic lead roofing, zinc is "too bright"
316 2011-02-22 01:20:46 <luke-jr> TheKid: https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Tonal_BitCoin&diff=3945&oldid=3880 https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Tonal_BitCoin&diff=3984&oldid=3952 https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Tonal_BitCoin&diff=4141&oldid=4099
317 2011-02-22 01:21:47 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr: I'll just contact him for now, I do not believe this represents any non-controlable trolling
318 2011-02-22 01:22:50 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: ThomasV is his copycat vandal
319 2011-02-22 01:23:48 <dissipate> if i am behind a NAT, i am assuming this will prevent people on the bitcoin network from connecting to me to download the block chain?
320 2011-02-22 01:24:55 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: in any case, thanks for helping :
321 2011-02-22 01:25:12 <luke-jr> dissipate: depends on the client and your NA
322 2011-02-22 01:25:13 <luke-jr> NAT*
323 2011-02-22 01:25:20 <luke-jr> original client doesn't support UPnP
324 2011-02-22 01:29:17 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: seen Spesmilo btw?
325 2011-02-22 01:48:39 <Diablo-D3> man
326 2011-02-22 01:48:54 <Diablo-D3> "Your demonstrations and your unrelenting cascade of disparaging slurs, unfounded judgments, and prejudicial innuendos, which apparently apply to every individual numbered amongst the race of Man&"
327 2011-02-22 01:50:12 <Kiba> Diablo-D3: wut?
328 2011-02-22 01:50:31 <Diablo-D3> Anonymous, on the subject of Westboro Baptist Church
329 2011-02-22 01:52:33 <Diablo-D3> You know
330 2011-02-22 01:52:38 <Diablo-D3> Anonymous is funny as hell
331 2011-02-22 01:52:51 <Diablo-D3> they're taking up a thousands of years old tradition
332 2011-02-22 01:53:46 <Kiba> I don't pay much attention
333 2011-02-22 01:54:49 <bk128> I liked the aaron barr thing/ hbgary
334 2011-02-22 01:56:06 <Kiba> I heard this hbgray hatched a convoluted plot to bring down anonymous
335 2011-02-22 01:56:36 <Kiba> and wikileaks
336 2011-02-22 01:56:48 <Diablo-D3> yeah
337 2011-02-22 01:56:49 <Diablo-D3> they did
338 2011-02-22 01:56:56 <Diablo-D3> but the problem is they didnt do shit
339 2011-02-22 01:57:01 <Diablo-D3> they made up a bunch of fake information
340 2011-02-22 01:57:07 <da2ce7> ;;bc,stats
341 2011-02-22 01:57:08 <Diablo-D3> and tried to sell the report to the FBI
342 2011-02-22 01:57:09 <gribble> Current Blocks: 109610 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 1269 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 15 hours, 19 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 48479.56655228
343 2011-02-22 01:57:28 <Diablo-D3> what anonymous did was hack hbgary, and leak virtually all their information, INCLUDING the report
344 2011-02-22 01:57:32 <Diablo-D3> the FBI is fucking pissed
345 2011-02-22 01:58:16 <dissipate> hello, i just started a new channel: bitcoin-politics
346 2011-02-22 01:58:51 <tcatm> what's the real topic of that channel?
347 2011-02-22 01:59:03 <Kiba> anything bitcoiners like to talk about?
348 2011-02-22 01:59:18 <dissipate> tcatm, anything politics for bitcoiners
349 2011-02-22 01:59:44 <Kiba> why do we need that when we have like #bitcoin-discussion
350 2011-02-22 01:59:46 <dissipate> tcatm, keep the official bitcoin channels clear of political chatter
351 2011-02-22 01:59:59 <tcatm> doesn't work. -otc has devstuff, -discussion isn't used much and -dev doesn't have much devtalk
352 2011-02-22 02:00:24 <Kiba> wut about bitcoin?
353 2011-02-22 02:00:30 <Kiba> there's like 2 address there
354 2011-02-22 02:01:11 <Kiba> #bitcoin
355 2011-02-22 02:01:23 <dissipate> i just opened yet another channel: bitcon-ufos
356 2011-02-22 02:02:33 <dissipate> could bitcoin be an intergalactic medium of exchange?
357 2011-02-22 02:02:43 <dissipate> are aliens using the bitcoin network?
358 2011-02-22 02:02:47 <jgarzik> yes
359 2011-02-22 02:02:48 <tcatm> unlikely
360 2011-02-22 02:03:08 <tcatm> we'd need to adjust block intervals
361 2011-02-22 02:03:18 <Necr0s> It seems quite unlikely.
362 2011-02-22 02:03:45 <Necr0s> No life form here on earth uses bitcoin other than a small subset of humans.  Why would alien life use it?
363 2011-02-22 02:03:56 <dissipate> if i were an alien i would
364 2011-02-22 02:04:31 <tcatm> for the whole universe 2.5E15 coins could be too little
365 2011-02-22 02:05:19 <Kiba> we need a faster light than light
366 2011-02-22 02:05:24 <Kiba> communication network
367 2011-02-22 02:05:32 <Kiba> maybe a wormhole bitcoin network
368 2011-02-22 02:05:35 <dissipate> what if an advanced alien race with quantum computing technology tries to take over the bitcoin network?
369 2011-02-22 02:05:44 <Kiba> wormhole internet!
370 2011-02-22 02:05:53 <Kiba> dissipate: why would they?
371 2011-02-22 02:06:03 <Kiba> maybe they invented something similiar that is far more secure
372 2011-02-22 02:06:06 <Diablo-D3> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/4.252.99.182
373 2011-02-22 02:06:46 <Kiba> bitcoin is a weird organism
374 2011-02-22 02:06:53 <Kiba> it compell humans to do weird things
375 2011-02-22 02:06:56 <dissipate> would aliens even have governments?
376 2011-02-22 02:07:01 <Necr0s> All your bitcoins are belong to Q.
377 2011-02-22 02:07:13 <Necr0s> All hashes are known by Q.  Always, at all points in space and time.
378 2011-02-22 02:07:16 <Diablo-D3> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Fisher_Price:_A_Retrospective
379 2011-02-22 02:07:18 <Diablo-D3> it gets worse!
380 2011-02-22 02:09:49 <jgarzik> Chuck Norris could kick Q's ass.  Chuck Norris could mine a block a second, if he wanted to.
381 2011-02-22 02:11:47 <andrew12> <@Maytricks> unbeliever: Procrastinators of the world unite... tomorrow!
382 2011-02-22 02:19:02 <lfm> bruce lee DID kick Chuck Noris's ass
383 2011-02-22 02:25:48 <Diablo-D3> and he died shortly after.
384 2011-02-22 02:28:05 <phantomcircuit> lold
385 2011-02-22 02:28:11 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, WINNER
386 2011-02-22 02:29:08 <lfm> shortly == 6 months later in bed and a continent away, I dont think Chucky baby can take credit
387 2011-02-22 02:32:05 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
388 2011-02-22 02:32:09 <gribble> Current Blocks: 109616 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 1263 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 13 hours, 52 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 48666.33911979
389 2011-02-22 02:32:22 <JFK911> Haha difficulty
390 2011-02-22 02:32:39 <JFK911> ;;bc,quote
391 2011-02-22 02:32:53 <gribble> Error: "bc,quote" is not a valid command.
392 2011-02-22 02:33:03 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
393 2011-02-22 02:33:05 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.8796,"low":0.8313,"vol":2033,"buy":0.8346,"sell":0.8679,"last":0.8346}}
394 2011-02-22 02:33:07 <JFK911> 83 cents
395 2011-02-22 02:33:09 <JFK911> Time to cut your losses and pack it up, guys!
396 2011-02-22 02:34:10 <dissipate> JFK911, i went short when it was at $1. i'm looking pretty right now. :)
397 2011-02-22 02:35:56 <Blitzboom> >48666
398 2011-02-22 02:36:09 <Blitzboom> nice, estimate keeps going up
399 2011-02-22 02:36:20 <Blitzboom> i place my bet on 50k
400 2011-02-22 02:37:27 <lfm> 42k
401 2011-02-22 02:38:24 <bitcoiner> ;;bc, stats
402 2011-02-22 02:38:24 <gribble> Error: "bc," is not a valid command.
403 2011-02-22 02:38:27 <JFK911> dissipate: Nice!
404 2011-02-22 02:39:07 <JFK911> well, all the blocks i found so far had much lower answers than the target
405 2011-02-22 02:39:09 <dissipate> JFK911, just kidding. i don't know how to short bitcoin. :(
406 2011-02-22 02:39:13 <bitcoiner> ;;bc,stats
407 2011-02-22 02:39:15 <gribble> Current Blocks: 109616 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 1263 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 13 hours, 52 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 48666.33911979
408 2011-02-22 02:39:29 <JFK911> dissipate: You borrow btc and then sell them...
409 2011-02-22 02:39:34 <jgarzik> indeed
410 2011-02-22 02:39:49 <dissipate> JFK911, borrow from who?
411 2011-02-22 02:39:49 <Kiba> jgarzik: so how that pastecoin thingie?
412 2011-02-22 02:40:10 <Kiba> I did shortselling twice
413 2011-02-22 02:40:14 <JFK911> dissipate: Anyone?
414 2011-02-22 02:40:15 <Kiba> but I quit as a bitcoin spectulator
415 2011-02-22 02:40:21 <Kiba> because it is not my skill
416 2011-02-22 02:40:34 <jgarzik> Kiba: my programmer says tomorrow
417 2011-02-22 02:40:37 <dissipate> Kiba, then you can be a bitcoin spectator
418 2011-02-22 03:35:08 <dirtyfilthy> we just had a huge earthquake here, couldn't get hold of gf but just found out she's ok
419 2011-02-22 03:35:16 <dirtyfilthy> words can't describe the relief
420 2011-02-22 03:35:44 <da2ce7> hey guys, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Active_Bounties
421 2011-02-22 03:35:53 <da2ce7> check and add any bounties you know of!
422 2011-02-22 03:36:03 <doublec> dirtyfilthy: are you in chch?
423 2011-02-22 03:36:08 <dirtyfilthy> yep
424 2011-02-22 03:36:16 <doublec> I'm watching it on live stream - amazing damage
425 2011-02-22 03:36:43 <doublec> are you near the city?
426 2011-02-22 03:37:15 <TheKid> dirtyfilthy: where?
427 2011-02-22 03:37:40 <doublec> TheKid: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4688231/Deaths-destruction-in-Christchurch-quake
428 2011-02-22 03:37:41 <echelon> mirc tor script?
429 2011-02-22 03:38:09 <doublec> same place that had a 7.1 quake a couple of months ago
430 2011-02-22 03:38:36 <echelon> does it really need a script to use tor?
431 2011-02-22 03:38:38 <echelon> oh, sasl
432 2011-02-22 03:39:02 <dirtyfilthy> doublec: nah i'm not but gf was
433 2011-02-22 03:48:41 <`Jaka> >>
434 2011-02-22 03:48:41 <`Jaka> >>16062289
435 2011-02-22 03:48:42 <`Jaka> security companies takes the tree of hashes, identify collisions, remove them, use the values that are good
436 2011-02-22 03:49:07 <lfm> spam
437 2011-02-22 03:49:20 <andrew12> flood
438 2011-02-22 03:50:07 <lfm> also nonsense
439 2011-02-22 03:50:30 <`Jaka> http://boards.4chan.org/g/res/16061021 read up bros
440 2011-02-22 03:50:53 <lfm> if it is more like the above its not worth looking at
441 2011-02-22 03:51:16 <`Jaka> no
442 2011-02-22 03:51:18 <`Jaka> that's just one part of it
443 2011-02-22 03:51:34 <lfm> so it gets better?
444 2011-02-22 03:51:57 <`Jaka> just read
445 2011-02-22 03:52:03 <lfm> sigh
446 2011-02-22 03:52:21 <`Jaka> i think it covers up a lot of why people don't trust btc
447 2011-02-22 03:52:30 <`Jaka> the system is way too complex for the average person
448 2011-02-22 03:52:34 <lfm> whats your password?
449 2011-02-22 03:52:39 <`Jaka> what
450 2011-02-22 03:52:54 <lfm> the link you posted here asks for a password
451 2011-02-22 03:53:03 <`Jaka> http://boards.4chan.org/g/res/16061021
452 2011-02-22 03:53:05 <`Jaka> just scroll down
453 2011-02-22 03:53:10 <`Jaka> you don't need a pw?
454 2011-02-22 03:53:42 <validus> i dont allow my pc to connect to 4chan
455 2011-02-22 03:53:53 <validus> that place is just fucking retarded
456 2011-02-22 03:53:59 <`Jaka> how is it fucking retarded
457 2011-02-22 03:54:10 <validus> are you actually defending 4chan?
458 2011-02-22 03:54:11 <validus> gtfo
459 2011-02-22 03:54:13 <`Jaka> no
460 2011-02-22 03:54:17 <`Jaka> i want to hear your argument
461 2011-02-22 03:54:23 <validus> simple. login
462 2011-02-22 03:54:27 <`Jaka> login?
463 2011-02-22 03:54:27 <validus> the entire site
464 2011-02-22 03:54:33 <`Jaka> there's no login
465 2011-02-22 03:54:37 <`Jaka> they say bitcoins are fucking retarded
466 2011-02-22 03:54:38 <validus> ok then goto the mainpage
467 2011-02-22 03:54:40 <jgarzik> it's as unreadable as the rest of 4chan
468 2011-02-22 03:54:40 <validus> does that help?
469 2011-02-22 03:54:43 <validus> who the fuck cares its 4chan
470 2011-02-22 03:54:48 <`Jaka> no
471 2011-02-22 03:54:48 <jgarzik> validus: precisely
472 2011-02-22 03:54:49 <lfm> its a long thread, do you have a question or do i really need to read all that stuff
473 2011-02-22 03:54:52 <validus> fucking christ
474 2011-02-22 03:55:01 <`Jaka> validus you sound like an elitist asshole
475 2011-02-22 03:55:08 <validus> no i am a 110% bastard
476 2011-02-22 03:55:17 <validus> that dont have time for pre 12 yr old momma boy pieces of shit comments
477 2011-02-22 03:55:19 <lfm> ya we are all elitist assholes here, so what
478 2011-02-22 03:55:21 <`Jaka> you are the reason why some don't believe in bitocins
479 2011-02-22 03:55:22 <`Jaka> :(
480 2011-02-22 03:55:22 <validus> i.e. 4chan
481 2011-02-22 03:55:28 <jgarzik> 4chan is full of garbage, and this thread is an excellent example
482 2011-02-22 03:55:30 <validus> fuck you. theres your elitest
483 2011-02-22 03:55:42 <validus> defend 4chan and try to call me names
484 2011-02-22 03:55:44 <`Jaka> you are very rude
485 2011-02-22 03:55:51 <validus> thast being nice
486 2011-02-22 03:55:53 <`Jaka> no
487 2011-02-22 03:55:56 <`Jaka> you are being defensive
488 2011-02-22 03:55:58 <validus> i can be alot worst
489 2011-02-22 03:56:03 <`Jaka> by the way it's spelled a lot
490 2011-02-22 03:56:06 <lfm> `Jaka: what do you want here?
491 2011-02-22 03:56:09 <citiz3n> why don't you two get a room
492 2011-02-22 03:56:11 <validus> oh a grammar nazi now?
493 2011-02-22 03:56:14 <`Jaka> no
494 2011-02-22 03:56:17 <`Jaka> just pointing it out
495 2011-02-22 03:56:18 <validus> welcome to ignore
496 2011-02-22 03:56:20 <`Jaka> to increase your Elitism
497 2011-02-22 03:56:20 <validus> goodbye
498 2011-02-22 03:56:22 <`Jaka> bye
499 2011-02-22 03:56:26 <`Jaka> lfm nothing
500 2011-02-22 03:56:29 <validus> defend 4chan. wtf
501 2011-02-22 03:56:44 <lfm> good, its easier to give it to you then
502 2011-02-22 03:57:24 <`Jaka> have you ever wondered why people think bitcoins are stupid upon first approach
503 2011-02-22 03:57:54 <lfm> nope, its cuz bitcoin is stupid on first approach
504 2011-02-22 03:58:10 <TheKid> `Jaka: sounds too good to be true on approach
505 2011-02-22 03:58:16 <TheKid> and people always start with
506 2011-02-22 03:58:17 <TheKid> free monies
507 2011-02-22 03:58:21 <TheKid> no work lolololol
508 2011-02-22 03:58:30 <TheKid> instead of the advantages of using it as a currency
509 2011-02-22 03:58:52 <Necr0s> it's 'cuz most ppl don't really have a deep understanding of our modern currency systems.
510 2011-02-22 03:59:20 <Kiba> people don't have a much deep understanding of anything, Necr0s
511 2011-02-22 03:59:25 <Kiba> except their field, maybe
512 2011-02-22 03:59:31 <Necr0s> Quite often, yes.
513 2011-02-22 03:59:41 <lfm> but people think they understand money
514 2011-02-22 04:00:13 <Necr0s> Myself, I don't really have an understanding of how someone could go through life without being inquisitive towards all that is unknown.
515 2011-02-22 04:00:25 <andrew12> tuesday
516 2011-02-22 04:00:36 <Necr0s> 'tus
517 2011-02-22 04:00:38 <Necr0s> 'tis
518 2011-02-22 04:01:04 <TheKid> Necr0s: http://www.xkcd.com/
519 2011-02-22 04:01:17 <lfm> still monday here
520 2011-02-22 04:01:22 <dirtyfilthy> 4chan is the internet distilled in it's purest form
521 2011-02-22 04:01:30 <TheKid> lfm: you're in the wrong time zone my friend
522 2011-02-22 04:01:33 <TheKid> EST is where the part is at
523 2011-02-22 04:01:41 <lfm> the part?
524 2011-02-22 04:01:43 <Necr0s> touche
525 2011-02-22 04:01:45 <dirtyfilthy> +13 GMT motherfuckers
526 2011-02-22 04:01:47 <TheKid> party
527 2011-02-22 04:02:17 <lfm> estonia standard time?
528 2011-02-22 04:02:35 <dissipate> did anyone in here know there is a bitcoin-talk channel?
529 2011-02-22 04:02:41 <luke-jr> no
530 2011-02-22 04:02:44 <TheKid> nope
531 2011-02-22 04:02:46 <luke-jr> too many bitcoin channels lol
532 2011-02-22 04:02:48 <TheKid> nobody uses it do they?
533 2011-02-22 04:02:49 <lfm> no one uses it
534 2011-02-22 04:03:04 <dissipate> i'm in it right now.
535 2011-02-22 04:03:13 <luke-jr> there's also a #bitcoin-utc for blackmarket sales
536 2011-02-22 04:03:22 <Necr0s> lol
537 2011-02-22 04:03:41 <doublec> there was #bitcoin-discussion too
538 2011-02-22 04:03:42 <dissipate> there's bitcoin-ufos
539 2011-02-22 04:04:01 <luke-jr> no #bitcoin-tonal
540 2011-02-22 04:04:03 <luke-jr> but that's ok
541 2011-02-22 04:04:13 <TheKid> luke-jr: It'd be a lonely channel
542 2011-02-22 04:04:15 <dissipate> we don't need that one.
543 2011-02-22 04:04:18 <TheKid> unless you like talking to gribble
544 2011-02-22 04:04:20 <luke-jr> I think I'm the only one using both tonal AND bitcoin so far :P
545 2011-02-22 04:04:27 <Necr0s> there should be #bitcoin-miners
546 2011-02-22 04:04:57 <dissipate> Necr0s, i agree
547 2011-02-22 04:05:03 <TheKid> nah
548 2011-02-22 04:05:07 <TheKid> that's basically what -dev is
549 2011-02-22 04:05:14 <dissipate> isn't this channel actually just for the development of the bitcoin clients/servers?
550 2011-02-22 04:05:25 <dirtyfilthy> that's a good theory
551 2011-02-22 04:05:36 <luke-jr> lol
552 2011-02-22 04:05:44 <dissipate> this channel has been hijacked for discussions of mining!
553 2011-02-22 04:05:54 <ArtForz> Necr0s: there IS #bitcoin-mining, you know...
554 2011-02-22 04:06:11 <Kiba> I am seeing unusually high traffic
555 2011-02-22 04:06:20 <Necr0s> so there is.
556 2011-02-22 04:06:21 <Kiba> 196 people online today
557 2011-02-22 04:06:41 <Kiba> on the forum
558 2011-02-22 04:07:37 <andrew12> use alis
559 2011-02-22 04:07:43 <andrew12> /msg alis help
560 2011-02-22 04:13:34 <dwdollar> did somebody buy bitcoin.com?
561 2011-02-22 04:14:51 <Kiba> what do ya mean, dwdollar?
562 2011-02-22 04:15:15 <Necr0s> looks that way.
563 2011-02-22 04:15:31 <Necr0s> $ host bitcoin.com
564 2011-02-22 04:15:34 <Necr0s> bitcoin.com has address 66.246.76.246
565 2011-02-22 04:16:03 <Kiba> so it doesn't point to ours
566 2011-02-22 04:17:32 <lfm> ours?
567 2011-02-22 04:17:37 <dwdollar> I tried contacting the old owner.  He never responded.
568 2011-02-22 04:17:50 <Necr0s> forever
569 2011-02-22 04:18:06 <Necr0s> ^wrong window
570 2011-02-22 04:18:12 <nanotube> dwdollar: well the registrar entry hasn't been updated recently
571 2011-02-22 04:18:19 <nanotube> so maybe his server just died?
572 2011-02-22 04:18:35 <dwdollar> hmmm...
573 2011-02-22 04:18:45 <Necr0s> HTTP/1.1 504 Gateway Time-out
574 2011-02-22 04:18:58 <Necr0s> It's br0ked
575 2011-02-22 04:19:15 <AAA_awright> I just got an email telling me to reset my BitcoinMarket password at some obscure website
576 2011-02-22 04:19:27 <AAA_awright> Anyone know what that's about?
577 2011-02-22 04:19:44 <ArtForz> yes
578 2011-02-22 04:19:48 <ArtForz> bitcoinmarket v2
579 2011-02-22 04:19:57 <AAA_awright> Well dare I say
580 2011-02-22 04:19:59 <AAA_awright> BAD IDEA
581 2011-02-22 04:20:05 <ArtForz> currently still in beta, thats why it's still on IP
582 2011-02-22 04:20:24 <lfm> phishing
583 2011-02-22 04:20:25 <ArtForz> v1 and v2 will get swapped pretty soon
584 2011-02-22 04:20:45 <Kiba> finally
585 2011-02-22 04:20:48 <dwdollar> yep!
586 2011-02-22 04:20:58 <Kiba> at this point, bitcoinmarket pretty much lost all its lead on mtgox though
587 2011-02-22 04:21:04 <Kiba> even bitcoin central couldn't make a dent
588 2011-02-22 04:22:38 <Kiba> something odd is going on with bitcoin central's price points
589 2011-02-22 04:23:28 <ArtForz> ?
590 2011-02-22 04:24:21 <Kiba> ArtForz: somebody dumped all their bitcoin
591 2011-02-22 04:24:41 <Kiba> causing funny low numbers like 1 BTC sold for  0.10 LRUSD
592 2011-02-22 04:24:49 <ArtForz> yea
593 2011-02-22 04:24:57 <Necr0s> manipulationzzz
594 2011-02-22 04:25:09 <ArtForz> nah, samll market, and a few happy buyers :P
595 2011-02-22 04:25:33 <Necr0s> well yea...small market.
596 2011-02-22 04:25:54 <Kiba> we're growing bigger and bigger
597 2011-02-22 04:27:05 <Kiba> but I am continously reminded just how small this economy really is
598 2011-02-22 04:27:26 <Necr0s> If the difficulty number is any indicator.
599 2011-02-22 04:27:37 <da2ce7> yeah we are seeing exponential growth...
600 2011-02-22 04:27:47 <da2ce7> in bio that happens untill the resorces are consumed.
601 2011-02-22 04:27:55 <Necr0s> Maybe I should put in a limit-buy order to buy at 0.25 or something.
602 2011-02-22 04:28:00 <Keefe> i do not like how bitcoin-central chooses a price when matching orders
603 2011-02-22 04:28:09 <Necr0s> I guess I should sign up at some of these exchanges too.
604 2011-02-22 04:28:25 <Keefe> if there is a bid at 0.80, i should be able to put in an ask at 0.70 and always get 0.80
605 2011-02-22 04:28:44 <ArtForz> why?
606 2011-02-22 04:28:45 <Keefe> not an average of bid/ask, not just what i put in as an ask
607 2011-02-22 04:29:05 <Keefe> the first order should set the price
608 2011-02-22 04:29:16 <Keefe> assuming sufficient size of course
609 2011-02-22 04:29:19 <ArtForz> err, yes
610 2011-02-22 04:29:44 <Keefe> mtgox's method is logical and is probably how traditional exchanges work
611 2011-02-22 04:29:59 <Keefe> bitcoin-central... i'm actually not even sure what the logic is
612 2011-02-22 04:30:07 <dwdollar> maybe traditional exchanges are wrong:P
613 2011-02-22 04:30:45 <Keefe> anyone who is unfamiliar with traditional exchanges, shouldn't have a bias and should be happy to learn the standard
614 2011-02-22 04:30:51 <dwdollar> The new BCM will use a weighted average.
615 2011-02-22 04:30:59 <Keefe> someone who is familiar, is irritated by someone changing the rules
616 2011-02-22 04:31:03 <Keefe> ugh
617 2011-02-22 04:31:17 <dwdollar> *uses
618 2011-02-22 04:32:18 <Keefe> with bitcoin-central, if i want to get the best price, i have to manually do my order in pieces
619 2011-02-22 04:32:27 <dwdollar> It prevents a very small order size from fudging the market.
620 2011-02-22 04:32:54 <dwdollar> Which you would do if you wanted to "unlock" stop and stop limit orders.
621 2011-02-22 04:32:55 <Keefe> dwdollar: we might not be talking about the same thing
622 2011-02-22 04:34:14 <Keefe> let's say there are the following bids on the book: 10 btc @ $0.80, 50 btc @ 0.78, 100 btc @ 0.75
623 2011-02-22 04:34:33 <Keefe> and say i want to sell 80 btc at the best price i can get
624 2011-02-22 04:35:12 <Keefe> in my opinion, i should be able to put in an order for 80 btc @ 0.75, and the market matches as follows: 10 btc @ $0.80, 50 btc @ 0.78, 40 btc @ 0.75
625 2011-02-22 04:35:47 <Keefe> now whether you display that in three pieces or weighted-average the numbers, if it comes to the same total, we're good
626 2011-02-22 04:36:15 <twobitcoins> dwdollar: I agree with Keefe.  I always found the way BCM averages prices to be annoying.
627 2011-02-22 04:36:20 <Keefe> total being $77
628 2011-02-22 04:36:54 <Keefe> ugh, my example is off. i meant i am selling 100 btc
629 2011-02-22 04:37:08 <twobitcoins> Once you learn the rules you can work around it, and even make a little extra money from others who don't know the rules, but it's counterintuitive and not like other markets.
630 2011-02-22 04:37:17 <Keefe> let's try that again:
631 2011-02-22 04:37:22 <Keefe> let's say there are the following bids on the book: 10 btc @ $0.80, 50 btc @ 0.78, 100 btc @ 0.75
632 2011-02-22 04:37:31 <Keefe> and say i want to sell 100 btc at the best price i can get
633 2011-02-22 04:37:48 <Keefe> in my opinion, i should be able to put in an order for 100 btc @ 0.75, and the market matches as follows: 10 btc @ $0.80, 50 btc @ 0.78, 40 btc @ 0.75
634 2011-02-22 04:38:03 <Keefe> i should get $77 total
635 2011-02-22 04:38:43 <Keefe> at mtgox, i'll get $77 (minus fees)
636 2011-02-22 04:39:04 <Keefe> at BC, i don't know for sure, so i'll have to manually do the sell in three pieces
637 2011-02-22 04:40:02 <Keefe> and i will get $77 also, but extra work for me
638 2011-02-22 04:40:39 <twobitcoins> One issue: The old BCM closes, but still allows orders to be placed while the market is closed.  It is less clear how to match trades upon reopening in that case.
639 2011-02-22 04:40:45 <Keefe> it's trivial to write the site scripts to eliminate the extra work and just do it like mtgox and like most traditional exchanges AFAIK
640 2011-02-22 04:41:05 <Keefe> agreed
641 2011-02-22 04:41:35 <Keefe> one reason why i rarely trade at BCM is it's not open 24/7
642 2011-02-22 04:42:40 <Keefe> nothing against dwdollar personally. i appreciate his efforts. i just hope the new version will be open 24/7 and will match orders the traditional way
643 2011-02-22 04:42:44 <dwdollar> But, I still think it's better to average though.  Considering the alternatives.  I'll write something up sometime explaining the concerns.  It's hard to explain right now since I'm tired.
644 2011-02-22 04:42:52 <Keefe> ok
645 2011-02-22 04:44:10 <dwdollar> jgarzik:  Thanks, at least someone will!  :-D
646 2011-02-22 05:01:18 <afed_> takes too long to get transactions done
647 2011-02-22 05:04:07 <dwdollar> You still there Keefe?
648 2011-02-22 05:04:17 <Keefe> yes
649 2011-02-22 05:04:30 <dwdollar> Ok, here is concern one...
650 2011-02-22 05:05:53 <dwdollar> Assume an Ask at .8
651 2011-02-22 05:06:11 <dwdollar> Basically, you sit in a loop and constantly query for the highest Bid and lowest Ask.  Using the traditional method for pricing, someone could place a Bid at 100,000 and still get a price of .8 because they were the highest Bid.
652 2011-02-22 05:06:36 <dwdollar> Meanwhile, someone who presented a legitimate Bid at .9 would come in second.
653 2011-02-22 05:06:51 <Blitzboom> how would you find out how many nodes there are in total?
654 2011-02-22 05:06:58 <Blitzboom> is that possible?
655 2011-02-22 05:07:33 <Keefe> Blitzboom: please hold that thought while dwdollar and i discuss the exchange
656 2011-02-22 05:07:46 <Blitzboom> k
657 2011-02-22 05:07:56 <dwdollar> You could use some logic looking for "erroneous" Bids but who is to judge which is erroneous?
658 2011-02-22 05:08:03 <Keefe> dwdollar: "someone could place a Bid at 100,000"   $100,000/btc?
659 2011-02-22 05:08:07 <dwdollar> yes
660 2011-02-22 05:08:34 <Keefe> but that's not a problem if the exchange holds all currencies
661 2011-02-22 05:09:16 <Keefe> will BCMv2 be like BCMv1 where the $ side is peer-to-peer and not thru the exchange?
662 2011-02-22 05:09:27 <dwdollar> Why not?
663 2011-02-22 05:09:38 <dwdollar> It will be both.
664 2011-02-22 05:09:42 <Keefe> no problem. just making sure i understand
665 2011-02-22 05:10:12 <Keefe> "someone could place a Bid at 100,000 and still get a price of .8
666 2011-02-22 05:10:18 <dwdollar> Let's assume they're both held though.  Since I'm more concerned with that being gamed.
667 2011-02-22 05:10:22 <Keefe> that's fair
668 2011-02-22 05:10:38 <nanotube> i don't really see the problem
669 2011-02-22 05:10:46 <nanotube> someone placing a bid at 100k is basically placing a market order
670 2011-02-22 05:10:53 <nanotube> why not let it fill like a market order
671 2011-02-22 05:11:00 <Keefe> if the 0.9 bid came in first, it will clear the ask or clear itself before the $100000/btc bid
672 2011-02-22 05:11:04 <dwdollar> But the person who placed the Bid at .9 placed it first.
673 2011-02-22 05:11:13 <nanotube> then he would get it filled first
674 2011-02-22 05:11:40 <twobitcoins> I've observed that the old BCM doesn't execute trades immediately.  For a time, it allows overlapping bids/asks, and eventually they get matched up.
675 2011-02-22 05:11:49 <twobitcoins> That seems to be the cause of the problems.
676 2011-02-22 05:11:59 <Keefe> well, just process orders in order they came in
677 2011-02-22 05:12:03 <Keefe> problem solved
678 2011-02-22 05:12:10 <twobitcoins> Orders should arrive in some order, and execute immediately.
679 2011-02-22 05:12:46 <btcminer> ;;bc,poolstats
680 2011-02-22 05:12:47 <dwdollar> Okay, that may work.
681 2011-02-22 05:12:48 <gribble> {"ghashes_ps": "68.986", "shares": 7726, "active_workers": 890, "round_duration": "0:08:14", "score": "19743.3916", "round_started": "2011-02-22 06:04:33", "shares_cdf": "19.10", "getwork_ps": 644}
682 2011-02-22 05:12:49 <Keefe> now there's still a problem of someone trying to buy more than they actually intend to pay for, but you can't help that without requiring funds on both sides to be in the exchange first
683 2011-02-22 05:12:58 <dwdollar> Concern 2:
684 2011-02-22 05:13:04 <alystair> what kind of income can one get from the gruop pool D:
685 2011-02-22 05:13:19 <dwdollar> There are many Stop and Stop Limit Orders.
686 2011-02-22 05:13:36 <Keefe> oh, new feature? :D
687 2011-02-22 05:14:02 <bob__> hiya folks
688 2011-02-22 05:14:14 <dwdollar> Again, someone places a very large Bid at an absurdly low amount.  Only .01 BTC
689 2011-02-22 05:14:14 <Keefe> the traditional method of order matching is less likely to trip stops
690 2011-02-22 05:14:34 <dwdollar> It is more likely right?
691 2011-02-22 05:14:44 <dwdollar> How is that?
692 2011-02-22 05:14:52 <Keefe> um, let's discuss a simple scenario...
693 2011-02-22 05:14:56 <dwdollar> ok...
694 2011-02-22 05:14:59 <nanotube> stops are triggered on trades, not on bid/asks
695 2011-02-22 05:15:10 <dwdollar> but this causes a trade
696 2011-02-22 05:15:13 <Keefe> first someone posts an ask for 100 btc @ $1.00
697 2011-02-22 05:15:17 <nanotube> dwdollar: (also, re matching: yes, matchnig should be done in order of arrival - like any exchange)
698 2011-02-22 05:15:31 <Keefe> then someone else comes and posts a bid for 100 btc @ $2.00
699 2011-02-22 05:15:36 <nanotube> dwdollar: if i bid on mtgox at .01 right now, will there be a trade? no.
700 2011-02-22 05:15:51 <nanotube> dwdollar: will it affect last trading price? also no. will it therefore trigger any stops? also no.
701 2011-02-22 05:16:04 <Keefe> traditional order matching would result in a trade of 100 btc @ $1.00
702 2011-02-22 05:16:08 <nanotube> absurdly low amount == no trade.
703 2011-02-22 05:16:27 <Keefe> averaging would result in a trade of 100 btc at $1.50
704 2011-02-22 05:16:35 <Keefe> which is going to trip more stops
705 2011-02-22 05:18:17 <nanotube> indeed
706 2011-02-22 05:18:46 <Keefe> the traditional order-matching method prevents someone from pushing the price around so much
707 2011-02-22 05:19:41 <dwdollar> hmmm....
708 2011-02-22 05:20:18 <dwdollar> Back to this...  "Again, someone places a very large Bid at an absurdly low amount.  Only .01 BTC"
709 2011-02-22 05:20:36 <Keefe> with traditional order-matching, if there's a large bid at $0.90 and a large ask at $1.00, trades *cannot* occur outside that range without a larger volume than that bid or ask
710 2011-02-22 05:20:52 <Keefe> therefore more stability and less stop-tripping
711 2011-02-22 05:21:18 <dwdollar> The Bid is 10 USD / BTC and someone places an order with an amount at .01
712 2011-02-22 05:21:22 <Keefe> "Bid at an absurdly low amount" is just ignored by a market
713 2011-02-22 05:21:50 <dwdollar> haha
714 2011-02-22 05:22:06 <dwdollar> I'm trying to think about this when I'm half asleep.
715 2011-02-22 05:22:08 <nanotube> dwdollar: can you set up your scenario more explicitly? time1: order1 placed. time2: order2 placed, time3: resulting trade...?
716 2011-02-22 05:22:11 <Keefe> "The Bid is 10 USD / BTC"  lost me there
717 2011-02-22 05:22:32 <dwdollar> ok...
718 2011-02-22 05:22:38 <twobitcoins> Yes, how many BTC and what $/BTC price is this absurd bid?
719 2011-02-22 05:22:59 <dwdollar> An Ask is 100 @ .8
720 2011-02-22 05:23:21 <nanotube> ok
721 2011-02-22 05:24:05 <dwdollar> A Bid is place:  .01 @ 100
722 2011-02-22 05:24:18 <nanotube> ok
723 2011-02-22 05:24:29 <Keefe> 0.01 btc at $100/btc?
724 2011-02-22 05:24:30 <twobitcoins> Then a trade happens, .01 @ .8
725 2011-02-22 05:24:35 <Keefe> yes
726 2011-02-22 05:24:37 <nanotube> under 'normal' market rules, trade happens of .01 at .8
727 2011-02-22 05:24:45 <Keefe> yep
728 2011-02-22 05:24:50 <dwdollar> Hmm...
729 2011-02-22 05:24:51 <nanotube> under 'dwdollar' market rules, trade happens of .01 at 50
730 2011-02-22 05:24:58 <Keefe> bad
731 2011-02-22 05:25:01 <nanotube> yea
732 2011-02-22 05:25:22 <dwdollar> I see.
733 2011-02-22 05:25:33 <Keefe> dwdollar: i hope you don't feel ganged-up-on :)
734 2011-02-22 05:25:41 <dwdollar> You guys are convincing me.
735 2011-02-22 05:25:48 <dwdollar> No, that's ok.
736 2011-02-22 05:25:57 <dwdollar> I'm glad to talk through it.
737 2011-02-22 05:29:05 <dwdollar> Well, if all this makes sense in the morning, I'll change it.
738 2011-02-22 05:29:46 <nanotube> o/
739 2011-02-22 05:29:47 <nanotube> heh
740 2011-02-22 05:30:05 <Keefe> :)  think it over and make sure we haven't overlooked something
741 2011-02-22 05:30:34 <dwdollar> I think I may have been just stubborn about it.
742 2011-02-22 05:31:01 <twobitcoins> Thanks for the work you do with BCM.
743 2011-02-22 05:31:16 <twobitcoins> I hope the new site becomes active so we have more diversity in trading options.
744 2011-02-22 05:31:53 <newsham> older price is prefered against newer price.  if new price cross an older bid or ask, that older price is used
745 2011-02-22 05:32:09 <dwdollar> one last thing though, probably not that big
746 2011-02-22 05:33:04 <dwdollar> It just seems right that both parties would get a better price than the expected...
747 2011-02-22 05:33:14 <dwdollar> but maybe I'm all wrong...
748 2011-02-22 05:33:26 <dwdollar> *than they
749 2011-02-22 05:33:37 <Keefe> one problem with that is it let's someone manipulate the price easier
750 2011-02-22 05:33:43 <Keefe> lets*
751 2011-02-22 05:34:19 <newsham> when you place a new order that cross the bid or ask, you already have the information about what the market price is
752 2011-02-22 05:34:29 <newsham> so its natural that you should get the market price
753 2011-02-22 05:34:37 <Keefe> yes, so you should get the "advertised" rate
754 2011-02-22 05:34:45 <newsham> vs. the guy who places a limit order.. they're being a market maker.
755 2011-02-22 05:35:13 <Keefe> as the later order placer, you shouldn't pay more just because you didn't look first
756 2011-02-22 05:35:20 <newsham> the benefit is that you can place a market order just by saying some ridiculous price
757 2011-02-22 05:36:08 <Keefe> imagine 20 different asks that you need to match as a buyer. it would be very tedious to do your buy in pieces just to get the advertised price
758 2011-02-22 05:37:32 <nanotube> well, unless there's a 'market' order type
759 2011-02-22 05:38:07 <nanotube> but still makes it difficult if you want to sop up all outstanding orders "up to price X"
760 2011-02-22 05:38:23 <Keefe> and put an ask for the remainder
761 2011-02-22 05:38:33 <Keefe> sorry, bid
762 2011-02-22 05:39:04 <nanotube> i think in all... there is a good reason exchange markets operate the way they do. :)
763 2011-02-22 05:39:07 <Keefe> since we're discussing from the btc-buyer side
764 2011-02-22 05:39:24 <Keefe> yep, which goes back to one of my first arguments
765 2011-02-22 05:39:52 <Keefe> anyone who is unfamiliar with traditional exchanges, shouldn't have a bias and should be happy to learn the standard
766 2011-02-22 05:39:55 <Keefe> someone who is familiar, is irritated by someone changing the rules
767 2011-02-22 05:41:00 <twobitcoins> Someone who doesn't know the rules or who expects the normal market rules will be fooled into getting a worse price than the could have gotten.
768 2011-02-22 05:41:21 <twobitcoins> Someone who knows the rules can get the best available price, but it can be tedious.
769 2011-02-22 05:41:56 <twobitcoins> Doesn't seem to be much of a benefit.
770 2011-02-22 05:42:20 <twobitcoins> The only benefit is to someone who places a bid or ask and later a trade happens at an unexpectedly better price.
771 2011-02-22 05:42:39 <newsham> uhhh
772 2011-02-22 05:42:40 <Keefe> the only argument i understood for it, is to give market makers more than they asked for
773 2011-02-22 05:42:41 <nanotube> yep, sounds about right.
774 2011-02-22 05:42:44 <Keefe> like you just said
775 2011-02-22 05:43:00 <newsham> you dont place orders and then later get a better price
776 2011-02-22 05:43:01 <dwdollar> Ultimately, it's what most people are familiar with.  But some things I never care to implement no matter how familiar people are with them.
777 2011-02-22 05:43:06 <dwdollar> like Dark Pools
778 2011-02-22 05:43:06 <twobitcoins> I've been the happy recipient of some bonus funds that way.  Since I know the rules, I'm actually arguing against my own self interest.
779 2011-02-22 05:43:14 <newsham> you might place an order and get a better price immediately
780 2011-02-22 05:43:53 <twobitcoins> Sorry, I'm describing properties of the current system, in which market makers may get a better price than expected.
781 2011-02-22 05:44:07 <Keefe> newsham: we're saying that if the average-of-bid/ask method is implemented, someone placing an order that doesn't fill right away, can get more than expected later
782 2011-02-22 05:44:17 <nanotube> dwdollar: well the mtgox-style dark-light hybrid orders have got to go indeed.
783 2011-02-22 05:44:32 <nanotube> dwdollar: full-dark orders are fine, since they never interact with the light order book.
784 2011-02-22 05:44:37 <Keefe> the dark pool stuff is a whole other issue
785 2011-02-22 05:44:56 <newsham> dark pool ridiculousness
786 2011-02-22 05:46:14 <dwdollar> nanotube:  I guess if it's shark against shark it's not so bad.:-D
787 2011-02-22 05:46:50 <Keefe> i don't like how dark orders cause the orderbook to look weak
788 2011-02-22 05:47:15 <Keefe> someone looking at the visible book might conclude there's not enough support/resistance to be a viable market
789 2011-02-22 05:47:24 <Keefe> but maybe there is, just dark
790 2011-02-22 05:49:52 <nanotube> dwdollar: right. dark-dark is basically like a separate market with a non-public order book.
791 2011-02-22 05:50:19 <dwdollar> isn't it mixed in the big markets though?
792 2011-02-22 05:50:21 <nanotube> but dark-light screws with people's expectations.
793 2011-02-22 05:52:04 <nanotube> dwdollar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_liquidity
794 2011-02-22 05:52:08 <nanotube> many types of dark pools.
795 2011-02-22 05:53:45 <nanotube> iceberg orders are the closest to mtgox dark-light pools. but they're much fairer in implementation.
796 2011-02-22 05:54:08 <Diablo-D3> todays dr mcninja
797 2011-02-22 05:54:15 <nanotube> (namely, they show up on the order book, just not in full amount - and can only get filled in chunks of displayed-amount at a time.
798 2011-02-22 05:54:18 <Diablo-D3> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
799 2011-02-22 05:54:20 <nanotube> )
800 2011-02-22 05:57:05 <dwdollar> What I tried to do with BCM2 is open it up more so you know who is trading what.  So dark pools would be counterintuitive to that anyway.
801 2011-02-22 05:57:11 <sethsethseth> how do i get poclbm to list devices?
802 2011-02-22 06:03:27 <grifferz> rename u2time fb_---
803 2011-02-22 06:05:19 <dwdollar> What's the average wallet size?
804 2011-02-22 06:05:33 <dwdollar> just curious
805 2011-02-22 06:05:59 <Blitzboom> mines 144 kb atm and its a few days old
806 2011-02-22 06:06:51 <dwdollar> Sorry I mean the amount in it.:-D
807 2011-02-22 06:06:58 <Blitzboom> oh
808 2011-02-22 06:07:15 <Blitzboom> i would be very interested in this as well, but how would you determine that?
809 2011-02-22 06:08:14 <Diablo-D3> @return validity check
810 2011-02-22 06:08:16 <Diablo-D3> errr
811 2011-02-22 06:08:21 <Diablo-D3> http://boards.4chan.org/g/res/16063169
812 2011-02-22 06:08:22 <Diablo-D3> LOL
813 2011-02-22 06:21:59 <Syke__> grr, diff keeps going up. we're going to hit 50000 next time
814 2011-02-22 06:24:16 <Diablo-D3> OVER NINE THOUU--oh wait.
815 2011-02-22 06:25:59 <Diablo-D3> http://images.4chan.org/g/src/1298359203295.jpg
816 2011-02-22 06:26:09 <Diablo-D3> why is micheal jackson holding moot's dick?
817 2011-02-22 06:33:10 <btcminer> ;;bc,markets
818 2011-02-22 06:33:11 <gribble> bcEUR: 0.6 (236.85 BTC) 0.55/0.6 | bcLREUR: 0.02 (166 BTC) None/0.68 | bcLRUSD: 0.1 (719.106 BTC) 0.008/1.03 | bcmLRUSD: 0.41 (500 BTC) 0.5/1.1 | bcmPPUSD: 0.9 (300 BTC) 0.89/0.89 | bcmPXGAU: 0.02 (400 BTC) 0.0046/None | bcPGAU: 0.021 (568.944 BTC) 0.0185/0.035 | btcexJPY: 0.0001 (0.1 BTC) None/None | btcexRUB: 29 (0.36 BTC) None/None | btcexWMR: 30.5 (151.4 BTC) None/None | mtgoxUSD: (1 more message)
819 2011-02-22 07:09:03 <jgarzik> dwdollar: are you gonna register as an MSB?
820 2011-02-22 07:09:18 <jgarzik> dwdollar: any regulatory limits, like mtgox's $1000/day withdrawal limit?
821 2011-02-22 07:27:45 <ExpletiveDeleted> Hi. So I'm interested in joining the mining.bitcoin.cz pool, however I'm not sure how to configure my miner to use it. I'm using the "--host=mining.bitcoin.cz " however I don't know how to configure it to use my account.
822 2011-02-22 07:27:56 <ExpletiveDeleted> I'm using m0mchil's gpu miner
823 2011-02-22 07:29:13 <lfm> ExpletiveDeleted: use the account and pw on the command line
824 2011-02-22 07:30:06 <ExpletiveDeleted> You mean the --user= and --pass= flags?
825 2011-02-22 07:31:49 <lfm> ExpletiveDeleted: ya I think so. I dont use pools myself so thats about all I know
826 2011-02-22 07:32:07 <ExpletiveDeleted> OK, thanks.
827 2011-02-22 07:35:14 <da2ce7> ;;bc,stats
828 2011-02-22 07:35:16 <gribble> Current Blocks: 109653 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 1226 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 10 hours, 16 minutes, and 18 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 48358.38674082
829 2011-02-22 07:56:59 <Diablo-D3> heh
830 2011-02-22 07:57:01 <Diablo-D3> i just realized
831 2011-02-22 07:57:05 <Diablo-D3> the forum has privmsgs.
832 2011-02-22 07:58:36 <JFK911> oh goodie
833 2011-02-22 07:58:40 <JFK911> enlarge your rolex
834 2011-02-22 07:58:52 <JFK911> 25 btc
835 2011-02-22 08:20:51 <jroz> Hi, anyone use bitcoin here?  Was hoping to find out more
836 2011-02-22 08:22:06 <lfm> ask away
837 2011-02-22 08:22:54 <jroz> how hard and expensive is it to convert from bitcoin to cash?
838 2011-02-22 08:23:26 <Diablo-D3> not hard or expensive at all
839 2011-02-22 08:23:32 <Diablo-D3> go use sites like mtgox and stuff
840 2011-02-22 08:23:34 <lfm> well I think when I converted from bitcoin to canadian dollars it cost about 5%
841 2011-02-22 08:24:20 <lfm> usually you start with mtgox to sell bitcoins for liberty reserve dollars or euro
842 2011-02-22 08:25:03 <jroz> cool ...  just wanted to see if people had success going from bitcoin to another currency.  Was worried about getting money in to bitcoins and not being able to convert to something else very easily
843 2011-02-22 08:25:18 <lfm> then there are a variety of outfits to convert from liberty reserve to local currencies
844 2011-02-22 08:26:02 <lfm> even mtgox has a couple less popular alternatives
845 2011-02-22 08:27:55 <jroz> Seems like there are pretty big fluctuations in exchange rates with bitcoin.  Are many people trying to play that angle?
846 2011-02-22 08:28:32 <lfm> I'm sure there is
847 2011-02-22 08:29:23 <TD> jroz: it's more that the market is quite illiquid and not very deep
848 2011-02-22 08:29:34 <TD> so you do see wild fluctuations in price because big purchasers or sellers can significantly move the market
849 2011-02-22 08:29:46 <lfm> not sure what you mean by illiquid
850 2011-02-22 08:29:53 <TD> there's certainly a LOT of speculation in bitcoins right now, but i think it's mostly long term speculation
851 2011-02-22 08:30:24 <TD> lfm: it's hard to move money in and out of the bitcoin economy. the only place you can do it in bulk is mtgox which requires movement through liberty reserve then another third party of questionable trustworthyness, etc
852 2011-02-22 08:30:35 <TD> coinpal is making it easier for small amounts
853 2011-02-22 08:30:40 <TD> at least in one direction
854 2011-02-22 08:31:01 <jroz> got ya.  Its a neat concept.  I think there was another type of electronic currency I watched a few years ago ... backed by gold or something
855 2011-02-22 08:31:23 <jroz> but it seems like it never quite took off
856 2011-02-22 08:31:39 <ArtForz> iirc for bulk amounts mtgox does do direct wire transfer
857 2011-02-22 08:32:38 <jroz> it had similar issues though ... kinda illiquid and not very deep
858 2011-02-22 08:34:18 <jroz> eCache ... that was it
859 2011-02-22 08:35:05 <Keefe> jroz: i've been trading in #bitcoin-otc for months and have built a good reputation. among other types of trades, i buy BTC with PayPal. would that be easiest for you?
860 2011-02-22 08:35:29 <lfm> the main difference is bitcoin is distributed, theoretically it should be rather harder to shut down
861 2011-02-22 08:37:38 <jroz> Keefe ... I'll look you up when I get more into it
862 2011-02-22 08:38:28 <jroz> lfm ... there's some word of mouth system in the middle east, I can't remember what its called
863 2011-02-22 08:38:33 <Keefe> ok. you don't want to accept PayPal from just anyone because of the reversibility, but if you find someone you can trust it's alright
864 2011-02-22 08:40:08 <jroz> Keefe ... good to know ... so somebody could pay your for bitcoin, you turn the bitcoin over, then they cancel through Paypal and don't give the bitcoin back?
865 2011-02-22 08:40:18 <Keefe> yep
866 2011-02-22 08:40:53 <Keefe> a couple ways to reverse PayPal payments. claim unauthorized use of your account, file a chargeback with the funding credit card, etc
867 2011-02-22 08:41:37 <jroz> I guess its the same with ordering physical product as well.  Send your money, then they don't send the product.
868 2011-02-22 08:42:23 <lfm> ya or pay for btc with a cheque and then stoppayment on the cheque
869 2011-02-22 08:42:25 <jroz> I think I even saw escrow agents who are getting in on bitcoin to try to help with people's concern.  But you've gotta trust the escrow agent for that to work
870 2011-02-22 08:44:13 <lfm> and physical product can go the other way too, they make you send the product first then never send the btc
871 2011-02-22 08:45:40 <jroz> Seems like the anonymity increases the risk
872 2011-02-22 08:46:22 <lfm> lotsa scams on ebay so I dont know if it really matters that way
873 2011-02-22 08:49:26 <jroz> yep ... I had a guy send me some pants when I ordered a suit once.
874 2011-02-22 08:50:55 <lfm> so bitcoin isnt really a solution for those problems
875 2011-02-22 08:51:43 <sipa> bitcoin is a currency, usd is a currency
876 2011-02-22 08:51:51 <sipa> mybitcoin is a server, paypal is a service
877 2011-02-22 08:51:58 <devon_hillard> non-reversible money transfer would actually help reputable sellers
878 2011-02-22 08:52:16 <devon_hillard> not having to deal with the chargeback scam
879 2011-02-22 08:52:26 <sipa> *however*, bitcoin is much easier to transfer electronically than usd, simplifying the task of electronic services that use bitcoin
880 2011-02-22 08:52:51 <devon_hillard> the problem is credit card security is so weak, banks have to have chargebacks
881 2011-02-22 08:53:05 <devon_hillard> if they didn't, they'd have to redesign the whole system (expensive)
882 2011-02-22 08:53:38 <jroz> yeah ... there would be a lower cost of entry to merchants accepting bitcoin
883 2011-02-22 08:53:39 <devon_hillard> online transactions should be driven by physical tokens, not just numbers on a credit card
884 2011-02-22 08:53:53 <lfm> well they could make credit cards more secure but it seems they like the current system too much
885 2011-02-22 08:54:10 <devon_hillard> also, banks gain from chargebacks
886 2011-02-22 08:54:13 <jroz> don't have to pay all of the monthly fees, card reader fees, etc.
887 2011-02-22 08:54:20 <devon_hillard> and merchants have to maintain a minimum balance just to cover them
888 2011-02-22 08:54:25 <devon_hillard> banks like permanent balances
889 2011-02-22 08:54:53 <lfm> so bitcoin eliminates the middleman banks
890 2011-02-22 08:55:13 <devon_hillard> it eliminates the need for centralized control
891 2011-02-22 08:55:34 <devon_hillard> the network has to be attacked at the nodes, always a hard problem
892 2011-02-22 08:55:46 <devon_hillard> whereas a centralized system only has to yield at the core
893 2011-02-22 08:56:44 <jroz> hmmm ... is the network necessary for transactions?
894 2011-02-22 08:56:49 <devon_hillard> yes
895 2011-02-22 08:57:13 <jroz> I guess that prevents forgeries and such
896 2011-02-22 08:57:29 <lfm> yup
897 2011-02-22 08:57:36 <jroz> and double use
898 2011-02-22 08:58:03 <devon_hillard> the greater the network, the harder it becomes to attack
899 2011-02-22 08:58:33 <devon_hillard> what's a rough instructions-per-second the network can process, btw?
900 2011-02-22 08:58:52 <devon_hillard> 200 GH/s
901 2011-02-22 08:59:12 <devon_hillard> 1K instructions per hash attempt?
902 2011-02-22 08:59:20 <ArtForz> more like 5k
903 2011-02-22 08:59:45 <ArtForz> and we're way north of 300 gh/s
904 2011-02-22 08:59:49 <Keefe> 5k per block?
905 2011-02-22 08:59:57 <lfm> unless you're on a via C7
906 2011-02-22 08:59:59 <ArtForz> 5k per hash
907 2011-02-22 09:00:12 <ArtForz> currently looks like ~340Gh/s
908 2011-02-22 09:00:24 <Keefe> oh, i misunderstood. was thinking transactions per second
909 2011-02-22 09:00:45 <ArtForz> so thats about ... 1700TIPS
910 2011-02-22 09:00:54 <lfm> currently closer to 1 txn per minute I think
911 2011-02-22 09:01:03 <Keefe> i thought it was more like 4k ops per hash?
912 2011-02-22 09:01:06 <Diablo-D3> whats Art-speed at?
913 2011-02-22 09:01:43 <devon_hillard> 1.7 peta-ops?
914 2011-02-22 09:01:57 <sipa> we're closer to 400GH/s than to 300GH/s
915 2011-02-22 09:02:28 <devon_hillard> so we're about half the computing power of folding@home
916 2011-02-22 09:02:36 <lfm> you can estimate the net total hash/sec by calculating difficulty * 2^32 / 600
917 2011-02-22 09:02:51 <sipa> that'd be a large underestimation
918 2011-02-22 09:03:00 <devon_hillard> underestimation?
919 2011-02-22 09:03:00 <sipa> since the difficulty is already "outdated"
920 2011-02-22 09:03:15 <Keefe> if a stock 5970 can do 560 mhps with diablo's miner, and is advertised as 4.6 tflops, and if it's half that many int ops, i calc 4100 ops/hash
921 2011-02-22 09:03:34 <ArtForz> yes
922 2011-02-22 09:03:36 <lfm> if the difficulty is falling it would be an overestimation
923 2011-02-22 09:03:41 <devon_hillard> I'd think bitcoin is one of the top 3 distributed computing projects out there
924 2011-02-22 09:03:46 <sipa> lfm: of course, but the difficulty isn't falling
925 2011-02-22 09:03:56 <lfm> siap it has in the past
926 2011-02-22 09:03:59 <sipa> i know
927 2011-02-22 09:04:00 <devon_hillard> folding@home, seti@home
928 2011-02-22 09:04:02 <ArtForz> exceopt not everything is a hd 5xxx