1 2011-02-26 00:30:51 <CIA-57> bitcoin: Matt Giuca master * ra357424 / .gitignore : Added .gitignore, which prevents 'bitcoin' and 'bitcoind' from showing up in git. - http://bit.ly/dEPSbz
  2 2011-02-26 00:45:14 <andrewh> it's not worth it to download xcode for fucking gcc
  3 2011-02-26 00:45:18 <andrewh> -.-
  4 2011-02-26 00:46:57 <andrewh> let alone with ios sdk
  5 2011-02-26 00:47:01 <andrewh> which i'll never use...
  6 2011-02-26 00:49:04 <andrewh> wait.. i think my mac's cds are supposed to have xcode tools
  7 2011-02-26 00:49:55 <andrewh> its nice to have a cd drive that works
  8 2011-02-26 00:52:00 <andrewh> yep it does :3
  9 2011-02-26 00:53:07 <andrewh> though it's only 3.2.5, so i'll leave the download for 3.2.5 running
 10 2011-02-26 00:53:12 <andrewh> er
 11 2011-02-26 00:53:15 <andrewh> it's only 3.2.3
 12 2011-02-26 01:02:15 <EvanR_> xcode is a joke
 13 2011-02-26 01:02:30 <EvanR_> you have to give steve jobs your mothers maiden name before you can write software for the mac
 14 2011-02-26 01:02:36 <EvanR_> thats official bullshit
 15 2011-02-26 01:15:11 <andrewh> EvanR_: dude
 16 2011-02-26 01:15:24 <andrewh> EvanR_: that's a fucking security question. it can be whatever you want it to be.'
 17 2011-02-26 01:15:33 <EvanR_> lol
 18 2011-02-26 01:15:42 <EvanR_> bashtastic
 19 2011-02-26 01:15:48 <andrewh> it can even be "you just lost the game!"
 20 2011-02-26 01:16:33 <andrewh> how to compile diablominer
 21 2011-02-26 01:16:45 <andrewh> readme is useless
 22 2011-02-26 01:18:12 <uni4dfx> has anyone ever thought of using a botnet to mine?
 23 2011-02-26 01:18:46 <andrewh> yes. there probably is a few already.
 24 2011-02-26 01:19:39 <uni4dfx> it's not legal though is it
 25 2011-02-26 01:20:04 <andrewh> no, but bitcoin probably isn't going to be considered legal either.
 26 2011-02-26 01:20:31 <uni4dfx> why not? i can sell my cpu/gpu cycles to whoever i want
 27 2011-02-26 01:20:48 <andrewh> why not to which one?
 28 2011-02-26 01:21:32 <uni4dfx> bitcoin not being legal?
 29 2011-02-26 01:21:41 <andrewh> the government is stupid
 30 2011-02-26 01:22:12 <Slix`> You can sell cycles I suppose, but botnets don't exactly ask for permission.
 31 2011-02-26 01:22:18 <Slix`> w
 32 2011-02-26 01:22:24 <Slix`> Why would bitcoin be illegal?
 33 2011-02-26 01:22:43 <uni4dfx> i can imagine the US government being butthurt about people making mone
 34 2011-02-26 01:22:46 <uni4dfx> money*
 35 2011-02-26 01:23:00 <uni4dfx> but instead of making it illegal i think in reality they'd rather tax it
 36 2011-02-26 01:23:04 <andrewh> uni4dfx: Liberty Dollar got killed.
 37 2011-02-26 01:23:18 <andrewh> uni4dfx: they'd make you have to pay money to use money? that's kinda stupid
 38 2011-02-26 01:23:21 <andrewh> :P
 39 2011-02-26 01:23:30 <dissipate> andrewh, link?
 40 2011-02-26 01:23:34 <uni4dfx> oh well, at least my government is SO stupid they probably won't even know about bitcoin for at least the next 10 years
 41 2011-02-26 01:23:41 <ArtForz> minting coins that say "dollar", yeah, smart move...
 42 2011-02-26 01:23:56 <andrewh> dissipate: to what? libery doller?
 43 2011-02-26 01:23:57 <andrewh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar
 44 2011-02-26 01:24:43 <dissipate> andrewh, no, a news article talking about how it had been killed
 45 2011-02-26 01:24:52 <andrewh> dissipate: i dunno, google for one
 46 2011-02-26 01:25:03 <andrewh> there's "legal issues" on that wiki page
 47 2011-02-26 01:26:08 <uni4dfx> also this in the first paragraph: "In May 2009, von NotHaus and others were charged with federal crimes in connection with the Liberty Dollar and, on July 31, 2009, von NotHaus announced that he had closed the Liberty Dollar operation, pending resolution of the criminal charges."
 48 2011-02-26 01:27:08 <dissipate> andrewh, nevermind, when i read 'liberty dollar' for some reason i was thinking 'liberty reserve'. 'doh
 49 2011-02-26 01:27:13 <andrewh> lol
 50 2011-02-26 01:27:26 <dissipate> i knew about liberty dollar getting shut down
 51 2011-02-26 01:27:53 <dissipate> i wasn't a big fan of liberty dollar, but the charges were totally trumped up
 52 2011-02-26 01:29:08 <pogden> all the charges in the liberty dollar case had to do with metal money
 53 2011-02-26 01:31:26 <dissipate> weren't they charged with money laundering and conspiracy?
 54 2011-02-26 01:31:50 <andrewh> i dunno
 55 2011-02-26 01:31:58 <andrewh> not really interested in the whole thing to be honest :P
 56 2011-02-26 01:32:37 <dissipate> anyone think this is real? http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3853.0
 57 2011-02-26 01:32:56 <dissipate> guy is looking for a 'business partner' with 100,000 BTC
 58 2011-02-26 01:33:24 <theymos> I'm sure it's real. Chaord is trustworthy.
 59 2011-02-26 01:33:45 <andrewh> s/business partner/hoarder/
 60 2011-02-26 01:33:47 <andrewh> jk
 61 2011-02-26 01:37:53 <dissipate> theymos, i'm not sure about looking for 'business partners' online
 62 2011-02-26 01:38:15 <pogden> where else are you going to find 100k BTC?
 63 2011-02-26 01:38:40 <theymos> Only a few individuals have that much, and you'll only find them on the forum.
 64 2011-02-26 01:38:44 <pogden> i don't know anyone irl who has bitcoins
 65 2011-02-26 01:39:25 <pogden> and 100k is more than 1% of the all circulating bitcoins
 66 2011-02-26 01:46:53 <dissipate> pogden, seems fishy to me.
 67 2011-02-26 01:47:10 <andrewh> why don't poclbm and diablominer have documenation?
 68 2011-02-26 01:50:50 <theymos> Maybe you should write some on the wiki.
 69 2011-02-26 01:52:24 <gasteve> are there instructions on building bitcoin somewhere (I'm on a Mac)
 70 2011-02-26 01:52:42 <gasteve> (well, I have Windows and Linux too...but on a mac at the moment)
 71 2011-02-26 01:52:47 <theymos> build-osx.txt in the source.
 72 2011-02-26 01:52:52 <gasteve> thx
 73 2011-02-26 01:52:54 <theymos> I don't think it's easy to do.
 74 2011-02-26 01:53:38 <gasteve> never stopped me before ;)
 75 2011-02-26 01:56:39 <andrewh> theymos: I can't write them if I don't even know how to use them myself...
 76 2011-02-26 02:00:02 <andrewh> 5316/5506 khash/sec on my mac
 77 2011-02-26 02:00:24 <andrewh> with diablo
 78 2011-02-26 02:05:14 <andrewh> wonder what my hashrate would be if i put linux on here :p
 79 2011-02-26 02:13:17 <dissipate> you actually run windows??
 80 2011-02-26 02:13:44 <andrewh> dissipate: mac.
 81 2011-02-26 02:14:00 <uni4dfx> probably about the same
 82 2011-02-26 02:14:12 <dissipate> andrewh, omg, you scared me for a sec. :D
 83 2011-02-26 02:14:29 <andrewh> uni4dfx: what do you mean?
 84 2011-02-26 02:14:37 <andrewh> the same hashrate?
 85 2011-02-26 02:15:20 <uni4dfx> yes
 86 2011-02-26 02:15:42 <uni4dfx> mac isn't so surprisingly different from linux, architecturally
 87 2011-02-26 02:15:57 <andrewh> the kernel is different
 88 2011-02-26 02:20:43 <andrewh> i wonder if it's possible to compile stuff using the gpu
 89 2011-02-26 02:21:22 <TheKid> OneFixt: you need to make it so I can have a permalink to check my balance
 90 2011-02-26 02:21:35 <TheKid> so I can obsessively refresh during the day when I'm away from my desktop
 91 2011-02-26 02:22:00 <OneFixt> TheKid: i need to put ads on that page if you're going to obsessively refresh it =)
 92 2011-02-26 02:22:19 <TheKid> I block all ads anyway ;)
 93 2011-02-26 02:22:23 <TheKid> afk
 94 2011-02-26 02:23:53 <uni4dfx> gahhh, when is slush going to re-open the registrations ;_;
 95 2011-02-26 02:25:27 <RBecker> ;;bc,calc 5000
 96 2011-02-26 02:25:28 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 5000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 51 weeks, 5 days, 11 hours, 40 minutes, and 4 seconds
 97 2011-02-26 02:25:31 <RBecker> ;;bc,calc 50000
 98 2011-02-26 02:25:32 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 50000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 5 weeks, 1 day, 5 hours, 58 minutes, and 0 seconds
 99 2011-02-26 02:25:34 <[Tycho]> Hello, uni4dfx.
100 2011-02-26 02:25:52 <uni4dfx> hello [Tycho]
101 2011-02-26 02:26:19 <[Tycho]> You can join my pool until slush's registration will be open :)
102 2011-02-26 02:26:45 <luke-jr> andrewh: wouldn't be very good at it
103 2011-02-26 02:27:08 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I wouldn't mind trying your pool sometime, but be aware I'm picky :P
104 2011-02-26 02:27:20 <andrewh> luke-jr: why not?
105 2011-02-26 02:27:21 <luke-jr> I get like 130% of estimated earnings mining for myself :P
106 2011-02-26 02:27:26 <luke-jr> andrewh: it's not designed for it
107 2011-02-26 02:27:43 <[Tycho]> luke-jr, http://deepbit.net
108 2011-02-26 02:27:45 <andrewh> luke-jr: gpu's aren't designed for bitcoin mining either, yet they do pretty well.
109 2011-02-26 02:27:54 <[Tycho]> PM me in case of any bugs found.
110 2011-02-26 02:28:03 <[Tycho]> especially during registration :)
111 2011-02-26 02:28:15 <[Tycho]> BTW, today we found second block :)
112 2011-02-26 02:29:26 <andrewh> [Tycho]: use tables for the html forms (at least on the registration page.. it looks like this for me: http://cl.ly/4qZh
113 2011-02-26 02:30:01 <andrewh> 13gctP74zCjcDpjMHW3FZpuostBGbdhxm9
114 2011-02-26 02:30:12 <andrewh> now i have a receiving address.
115 2011-02-26 02:30:12 <gasteve> ok...got github setup...looks like the build instructions were written when subversion was being used
116 2011-02-26 02:30:34 <gasteve> (the osx build instructions that is)
117 2011-02-26 02:30:44 <luke-jr> andrewh: there is nothing useful about mining, though; the proof-of-work bitcoin uses just happens to be similar to what shaders do
118 2011-02-26 02:30:56 <[Tycho]> andrewh, it was supposed to look exactly like this :) But thanks for suggestion.
119 2011-02-26 02:31:56 <mizery> Hey Everyone.  Kind of important maybe
120 2011-02-26 02:32:01 <andrewh> [Tycho]: do you want some help with this project? i'd be willing to help if you want help. (did i mention that i can help?)
121 2011-02-26 02:32:11 <mizery> I am here at UWM in Milwaukee where Amy Goodman is signing books still and talking with people in person.
122 2011-02-26 02:32:39 <mizery> i mentioned Bitcoin to her once very briefly, but would like to provide her with a printed page of some information that she can take with her so she doesn't forget.
123 2011-02-26 02:32:49 <mizery> Does anyone have any recommendations on a page I can print and hand to her?
124 2011-02-26 02:33:31 <[Tycho]> andrewh, thanks for your offer :) I'll tell you if needed.
125 2011-02-26 02:33:44 <luke-jr> mizery: you the same person who introduced me?
126 2011-02-26 02:34:01 <luke-jr> mizery: wtf is Amy Goodman?
127 2011-02-26 02:34:07 <mizery> democracynow.org
128 2011-02-26 02:34:14 <mizery> I must go
129 2011-02-26 02:34:19 <mizery> I am signed into someone's UWM account
130 2011-02-26 02:39:03 <andrewh> hmm.. anyone have any idea how i could solve this? http://pastie.org/1608600
131 2011-02-26 02:39:45 <andrewh> jgarzik's cpuminer doesn't wanna compile on this mac: "byteswap.h: no such fule or directory"
132 2011-02-26 02:40:48 <gasteve> this
133 2011-02-26 02:41:04 <jgarzik> andrewh: you could try http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1925.msg49812#msg49812
134 2011-02-26 02:41:33 <gasteve> this suggests you are missing a file called byteswap.h (sorry if that's obvious...never tried to build this cpu miner)
135 2011-02-26 02:42:18 <gasteve> could also be that you have that file, but it's not in your include path
136 2011-02-26 02:46:01 <andrewh> jgarzik: miner.h:26:24: error: sys/endian.h: No such file or directory
137 2011-02-26 02:46:05 <andrewh> heh
138 2011-02-26 02:47:03 <jgarzik> andrewh: i know osx has a byteswap somewhere
139 2011-02-26 02:47:16 <andrewh> it compiled fine on my other macbook...
140 2011-02-26 02:47:18 <jgarzik> andrewh: freebsd was just a stab at it, since osx and bsd share origins
141 2011-02-26 02:47:25 <andrewh> jgarzik: yeah
142 2011-02-26 02:47:32 <andrewh> hmm
143 2011-02-26 02:47:42 <andrewh> ~1Mhash with 1 thread on here
144 2011-02-26 02:48:05 <andrewh> gonna try the different algos
145 2011-02-26 02:48:49 <andrewh> huh, via actually runs on here-- nevermind
146 2011-02-26 02:48:58 <andrewh> :p
147 2011-02-26 02:58:24 <afed> ;;bc,stats
148 2011-02-26 02:58:26 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110515 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 364 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 15 hours, 1 minute, and 44 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 52640.05098664
149 2011-02-26 02:58:33 <afed> crap
150 2011-02-26 02:59:15 <ArtForz> wow, lower than what I expected
151 2011-02-26 02:59:43 <ArtForz> my guess was 55k
152 2011-02-26 03:00:15 <luke-jr> I haven't got any blocks this difficulty I think
153 2011-02-26 03:00:17 <luke-jr> not since the 17th
154 2011-02-26 03:00:19 <lfm> andrewh: you're surprized you have a via cpu?
155 2011-02-26 03:00:20 <luke-jr> 19th*
156 2011-02-26 03:02:25 <andrewh> lfm:
157 2011-02-26 03:02:48 <andrewh> it looked like it was working, turned out it didn.t
158 2011-02-26 03:02:51 <andrewh> didn't*
159 2011-02-26 03:02:56 <andrewh> wasn't*
160 2011-02-26 03:02:57 <andrewh> lol
161 2011-02-26 03:03:58 <lfm> ah ya
162 2011-02-26 03:04:47 <lfm> those cpu are kinda rare
163 2011-02-26 03:06:09 <bitcoiner> kadafi in da bunka
164 2011-02-26 03:26:22 <norm_> logged channel.. my deathless prose will be immortalized! and I don't need a twitter account..
165 2011-02-26 03:48:47 <necrodearia> Yay!  Amy Goodman's talk in Milwaukee today was excepptionally and powerfully amazing.
166 2011-02-26 03:48:58 <necrodearia> I asked her if she has heard of Bitcoin.  She admitted she had not heard of it.
167 2011-02-26 03:49:44 <necrodearia> I promptly and seemingly too rushedly suggested she should check it out, without getting into details or explaining why. and ended conversation shortly afterwards, parting.
168 2011-02-26 03:50:15 <necrodearia> I wish I had prepared materials or a kind of gift to her =/
169 2011-02-26 03:50:24 <necrodearia> blah
170 2011-02-26 03:54:51 <necrodearia> I should've bought her 24 karat gold necklace with bitcoin logo pendant
171 2011-02-26 03:54:54 <dissipate> necrodearia, amy who?
172 2011-02-26 03:54:58 <necrodearia> Amy Goodman
173 2011-02-26 03:55:02 <necrodearia> of Democracy Now!
174 2011-02-26 03:55:03 <dissipate> dunno who that is
175 2011-02-26 03:55:07 <necrodearia> You should
176 2011-02-26 03:55:12 <necrodearia> http://democracynow.org
177 2011-02-26 03:55:15 <dissipate> uh oh, sounds like mainstream politics
178 2011-02-26 03:55:21 <necrodearia> actually
179 2011-02-26 03:55:28 <necrodearia> "mainstream" is incorrect word
180 2011-02-26 03:55:52 <necrodearia> Milwaukee Journal Sentinel is EVIL
181 2011-02-26 03:56:02 <dissipate> democracy sucks, sorry. :(
182 2011-02-26 03:56:57 <necrodearia> dissipate, I'm sure if you attended the event, you would feel otherwise... although, if you didn't, then you would probably assassinate everyone.
183 2011-02-26 03:57:30 <dissipate> necrodearia, can we take this up in bitcoin-politics?
184 2011-02-26 03:57:46 <necrodearia> Amy Goodman specifically suggested to help encourage people to turn away from corporate media
185 2011-02-26 03:57:50 <necrodearia> sure
186 2011-02-26 03:58:04 <necrodearia> oh? only us two
187 2011-02-26 03:58:09 <necrodearia> I thought it would be more popular.
188 2011-02-26 03:58:13 <theymos> They seem to support the WI protests, which are really stupid.
189 2011-02-26 03:58:21 <dissipate> necrodearia, alright, bitcoin-talk
190 2011-02-26 03:58:48 <necrodearia> theymos, Oh?  You feel negatively of DN! also?
191 2011-02-26 03:59:49 <theymos> I've never heard of them before you mentioned them, but I am very critical of the protests. I also have a cynical view of the middle-eastern rebellions.
192 2011-02-26 04:00:01 <theymos> I'm sure nothing good will come of either.
193 2011-02-26 04:00:36 <gasteve> I think they should just give the protesters what they want...free money ...LoL
194 2011-02-26 04:00:48 <gasteve> fools
195 2011-02-26 04:03:37 <gasteve> I mean, not only are they too ignorant to realize that the state and nation are bankrupt and that even if they get want they want, it'll simply hasten the collapse of the dollar, but they are also apparently too naive to realize they are simply being used as pawns in a bid for the throne
196 2011-02-26 04:04:56 <theymos> All those who failed to perform their work in favor of protesting should be fired immediately.
197 2011-02-26 04:05:17 <theymos> (Though ideally the whole public education system would be eliminated.)
198 2011-02-26 04:07:08 <kiba> gasteve: it's called political patronage
199 2011-02-26 04:07:12 <gasteve> public education...I've heard anecdotes that prior to the mid 1800's (when education was all private), that the education level of the general population was far better than after the public education system was introduced (just anecdotes I read)
200 2011-02-26 04:13:53 <gasteve> wxWidgets takes a long time to compile
201 2011-02-26 04:14:13 <afed> lol mining on my laptop
202 2011-02-26 04:14:17 <afed> 2204 khash/s
203 2011-02-26 04:15:55 <gasteve> I've been mining over 3 days with a 5970 at ~620mhash/s and still nothing  :x
204 2011-02-26 04:17:36 <gasteve> is the only difference between bitcoin and bitcoind that one pops up the UI and the other doesn't?
205 2011-02-26 04:17:47 <[Tycho]> yes
206 2011-02-26 04:18:31 <gasteve> I was thinking it might be nice to factor out the wallet management into a separate library/executable
207 2011-02-26 04:18:56 <[Tycho]> It's already done.
208 2011-02-26 04:19:02 <[Tycho]> Called bitcoind :)
209 2011-02-26 04:19:28 <gasteve> but bitcoind also has the bitcoin client and mining as well doesn't it?
210 2011-02-26 04:19:28 <[Tycho]> You can write your own GUI for it.
211 2011-02-26 04:19:42 <[Tycho]> Yes. Why not ?
212 2011-02-26 04:20:38 <gasteve> well, what I'm getting at is you could have a separate tool (daemon) for managing the wallet that could/would communicate with another that acts as a client on the network
213 2011-02-26 04:20:56 <gasteve> and it could be made to manage multiple wallets, etc
214 2011-02-26 04:21:04 <[Tycho]> Yes, you can do it now.
215 2011-02-26 04:21:20 <[Tycho]> Not multiple wallets, but multiple accounts.
216 2011-02-26 04:21:29 <gasteve> what does that mean?  all I see is bitcoin and bitcoind
217 2011-02-26 04:21:37 <[Tycho]> bitcoind
218 2011-02-26 04:21:39 <gasteve> (identical except one has the UI)
219 2011-02-26 04:22:38 <gasteve> because wallet management needs to be really secure, it might be a good idea to have that run in a separate process from the btc client or any miners
220 2011-02-26 04:23:23 <gasteve> so, you might have btc-wallet, btc-client, btc-miner, btc-gui all as separate executables (communicating with each other)
221 2011-02-26 04:23:28 <[Tycho]> May be. But it should be connected with bitcoin network somehow.
222 2011-02-26 04:24:03 <[Tycho]> Having one executable for everything looks nice for me.
223 2011-02-26 04:24:10 <gasteve> the wallet might register with the client to listen for transactions that the wallet is interested int
224 2011-02-26 04:25:02 <gasteve> it's the unix way I guess to separate concerns like this
225 2011-02-26 04:25:28 <tcatm> are you familiar with c++?
226 2011-02-26 04:25:35 <gasteve> tcatm: who are you asking?
227 2011-02-26 04:25:42 <tcatm> you ;)
228 2011-02-26 04:25:46 <gasteve> yes
229 2011-02-26 04:25:58 <gasteve> unfortunately ;)
230 2011-02-26 04:26:23 <gasteve> used to follow c++ religiously when Stroustroup was creating it (or I would say...winging it)
231 2011-02-26 04:27:18 <dissipate> c++??
232 2011-02-26 04:27:27 <dissipate> *barf*
233 2011-02-26 04:28:04 <tcatm> if you have some time you could try to seperate the wallet code from the client
234 2011-02-26 04:28:37 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: bitcoind doesn't have a reasonable protocol
235 2011-02-26 04:28:56 <luke-jr> gasteve: that's the plan, more or less, but it's a bit off
236 2011-02-26 04:29:12 <gasteve> btw, having separate executables for different concerns doesn't preclude also building a single executable for those that prefer it (and also building libs that could be reused with other apps)
237 2011-02-26 04:29:16 <luke-jr> gasteve: Just began specing the UI<->wallet protocol at https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3757.0
238 2011-02-26 04:29:20 <dissipate> luke-jr, wallet protocol?
239 2011-02-26 04:29:30 <gasteve> well, let me know if there's something smallish I could work on to get my feet wet
240 2011-02-26 04:29:40 <luke-jr> gasteve: wallet<->p2p would just be the p2p protocol with 1 peer for the wallet
241 2011-02-26 04:29:43 <luke-jr> gasteve: protocol could use some mind melding
242 2011-02-26 04:29:47 <luke-jr> dissipate: ?
243 2011-02-26 04:29:48 <tcatm> gasteve: pick any issue from github, like https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues#issue/47
244 2011-02-26 04:29:51 <dissipate> luke-jr, why would you want your wallet on peer 2 peer??
245 2011-02-26 04:30:15 <dissipate> luke-jr, gasteve: Just began specing the UI<->wallet protocol at https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3757.0
246 2011-02-26 04:30:20 <luke-jr> dissipate: you connect the wallet to the bitcoin-p2p daemon to get blocks and send tx
247 2011-02-26 04:30:30 <dissipate> luke-jr, oh ok. i'm hoping that would be over SSH
248 2011-02-26 04:30:44 <luke-jr> &
249 2011-02-26 04:30:55 <luke-jr> no reason for it to be
250 2011-02-26 04:31:03 <dissipate> what if someone listens in?
251 2011-02-26 04:31:12 <luke-jr> what if they do?
252 2011-02-26 04:31:19 <dissipate> they steal your wallet!
253 2011-02-26 04:31:21 <luke-jr> nope
254 2011-02-26 04:31:23 <luke-jr> wallet doesn't reveal anything private
255 2011-02-26 04:31:24 <dissipate> oh?
256 2011-02-26 04:31:28 <gasteve> another reason to factor out the wallet from the full p2p client is for lightweight clients (phones)...they could run just the wallet and connect remotely to a full p2p client
257 2011-02-26 04:31:32 <luke-jr> right now, bitcoin is p2p+wallet+miner+UI
258 2011-02-26 04:31:35 <luke-jr> all in one
259 2011-02-26 04:31:51 <luke-jr> gasteve: that bit is a bad idea ;)
260 2011-02-26 04:32:00 <luke-jr> gasteve: if someone steals the phone, yuo don't want them to get your wallet
261 2011-02-26 04:32:12 <gasteve> so put a password on the phone ;)
262 2011-02-26 04:32:18 <gasteve> but, yeah
263 2011-02-26 04:32:20 <phantomcircuit_> gasteve, that wont help
264 2011-02-26 04:32:22 <phantomcircuit_> at all
265 2011-02-26 04:32:28 <luke-jr> p2p should run on your router, wallet on your desktop, and UI on your handheld
266 2011-02-26 04:32:42 <luke-jr> UI accesses wallet using the UI<->wallet protocol
267 2011-02-26 04:32:51 <gasteve> yep
268 2011-02-26 04:32:58 <luke-jr> wallet talks to the p2p daemon to exchange data with the network
269 2011-02-26 04:33:16 <luke-jr> p2p daemon maintains connections and decides what to relay
270 2011-02-26 04:33:45 <gasteve> I like it
271 2011-02-26 04:34:10 <dissipate> and that shouldn't be over ssh???
272 2011-02-26 04:34:10 <phantomcircuit_> sexy
273 2011-02-26 04:34:19 <gasteve> this kind of factoring wil be important for people that want to become bitcoin service providers of sorts
274 2011-02-26 04:35:12 <luke-jr> dissipate: no reason for it to be
275 2011-02-26 04:35:28 <luke-jr> dissipate: under no circumstances does the wallet tell any other component its private keys
276 2011-02-26 04:35:51 <tcatm> we could just start with a simple RPC that allows to broadcast a transaction to the network
277 2011-02-26 04:36:26 <dissipate> luke-jr, until someone finds a buffer overflow or some other exploit to get it to cough up the frog
278 2011-02-26 04:37:53 <gasteve> I find it a bit ironic that here you have bitcoin with all this sophisticated crypto, and yet they didn't both to apply basic encryption on the wallet.dat file
279 2011-02-26 04:38:02 <gasteve> *bother
280 2011-02-26 04:38:02 <luke-jr> dissipate: your argument applies to a monolithic bitcoin client just as well
281 2011-02-26 04:38:13 <luke-jr> tcatm: JSON-RPC is flawed in design
282 2011-02-26 04:38:45 <tcatm> we already have it and it works well
283 2011-02-26 04:38:51 <gasteve> how do you consider it flawed? (just an object serialization protocol)
284 2011-02-26 04:39:03 <luke-jr> tcatm: no, it is useless for clients
285 2011-02-26 04:39:17 <luke-jr> we need to poll it, and it only gives minimal info
286 2011-02-26 04:39:34 <tcatm> that's another problem
287 2011-02-26 04:39:52 <dissipate> google protocol buffers to the rescue
288 2011-02-26 04:39:56 <luke-jr> miners have this problem too
289 2011-02-26 04:40:03 <luke-jr> dissipate: suggest it on the wiki page ;P
290 2011-02-26 04:40:13 <kiba> hmm
291 2011-02-26 04:40:16 <luke-jr> but protobuf doesn't define a spec, it's just a skeleton
292 2011-02-26 04:40:32 <dissipate> no one has thought of protocol buffers??
293 2011-02-26 04:40:54 <dissipate> luke-jr, google has a really nice way of defining messages.
294 2011-02-26 04:41:16 <luke-jr> dissipate: it's not been suggested/mentioned on the wiki page, but possibly because the spec is too early on-- we're still defining requirements
295 2011-02-26 04:41:27 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
296 2011-02-26 04:42:00 <dissipate> if you want a high performance wallet, i suggest protocol buffers over a transport layer like zero mq.
297 2011-02-26 04:42:08 <gasteve> interesting...first I've heard about google protocol buffers
298 2011-02-26 04:42:09 <tcatm> we need more people writing code
299 2011-02-26 04:42:12 <dissipate> it could handle thousands of messages a second
300 2011-02-26 04:42:27 <luke-jr> tcatm: we need a standard to write code to first ;P
301 2011-02-26 04:42:37 <luke-jr> tcatm: as it is, Spesmilo works, but just barely.
302 2011-02-26 04:43:05 <luke-jr> barely meaning I use it for everyday stuff now& :p
303 2011-02-26 04:43:31 <dissipate> gasteve, it's a cross platform, cross language binary messaging format
304 2011-02-26 04:43:36 <luke-jr> but still, it's paralyzed by the JSON-RPC protocol limitations
305 2011-02-26 04:43:43 <gasteve> yep
306 2011-02-26 04:44:01 <dissipate> gasteve, you define your messages in a C++ like language which compiles to libraries in a language of your choice.
307 2011-02-26 04:44:04 <gasteve> looks nice
308 2011-02-26 04:44:06 <luke-jr> dissipate: we use it for Armagetron Advanced :P
309 2011-02-26 04:44:41 <luke-jr> should just be a generic protobuf lib that reads the spec files
310 2011-02-26 04:45:39 <dissipate> luke-jr, you always have to compile your message schema
311 2011-02-26 04:45:40 <gasteve> wxWidgets still compiling...damn
312 2011-02-26 04:45:47 <luke-jr> dissipate: that's stupid
313 2011-02-26 04:46:08 <luke-jr> gasteve: could just build bitcoind and use Spesmilo :D
314 2011-02-26 04:46:09 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, it's a code generator
315 2011-02-26 04:46:11 <dissipate> luke-jr, actually, it's brilliant
316 2011-02-26 04:46:17 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, ENTERPRISE
317 2011-02-26 04:46:31 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit_: there is no reason to have a code generator for Python
318 2011-02-26 04:46:37 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, exactly
319 2011-02-26 04:46:40 <gasteve> what the hell is spesmilo?
320 2011-02-26 04:46:52 <luke-jr> gasteve: PySide BitCoin client
321 2011-02-26 04:47:14 <dissipate> luke-jr, your schema is your documentation and defines your API.
322 2011-02-26 04:47:14 <gasteve> ah...
323 2011-02-26 04:47:15 <luke-jr> http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/spesmilo/archive-tarball/tonal#.tar.gz
324 2011-02-26 04:47:32 <Diablo-D3> what the fuck is tonal anyhow?
325 2011-02-26 04:47:43 <phantomcircuit_> Diablo-D3, yeah i dont get that either
326 2011-02-26 04:47:55 <foucist> hey guys..  what's the simplest GPU bitcoin miner?  i want to figure out how to parallelize sha-256 hashing
327 2011-02-26 04:47:56 <luke-jr> dissipate: sure, but there's no reason it can't parse those at startup
328 2011-02-26 04:48:01 <gasteve> so, while I know C++...I'm not a big fan (just think it's a crap language designed by someone that didn't bother to read up on what happened in the 70's and learn from it)
329 2011-02-26 04:48:05 <luke-jr> foucist: poclbm
330 2011-02-26 04:48:10 <tcatm> foucist: poclbm or oclminer
331 2011-02-26 04:48:19 <foucist> ok so those are the absolute simplest GPU bitcoin miner? :P
332 2011-02-26 04:48:31 <luke-jr> foucist: simplest to use
333 2011-02-26 04:48:37 <dissipate> luke-jr, you compile once, not every time it starts up. your protocol buffer schema compiles to python libs.
334 2011-02-26 04:48:41 <tcatm> oclminer might be easier to understand
335 2011-02-26 04:48:47 <foucist> luke-jr: not looking to use, just understand :P
336 2011-02-26 04:48:52 <gasteve> has any serious consideration been given to migrating to another language?  (maybe keep some of the core performance sensitive stuff in C/C++, but move the bulk of the rest to something else?
337 2011-02-26 04:48:59 <Diablo-D3> foucist: uh, how is parallelizing sha256 hard?
338 2011-02-26 04:49:00 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, do you know if code size is important for GPU shaders?
339 2011-02-26 04:49:01 <luke-jr> dissipate: which are then interpreted anyway
340 2011-02-26 04:49:12 <dissipate> luke-jr, yep
341 2011-02-26 04:49:15 <Diablo-D3> foucist: all you do is run multiple sha256 calculations in parallel.
342 2011-02-26 04:49:22 <luke-jr> gasteve: it's not about migration, it's about competition.
343 2011-02-26 04:49:29 <dissipate> gasteve, i vote for clojure!
344 2011-02-26 04:49:29 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit_: nfc
345 2011-02-26 04:49:35 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, xD
346 2011-02-26 04:49:39 <Diablo-D3> clojure is for faaaaaaags
347 2011-02-26 04:49:42 <Diablo-D3> use java goddamnit
348 2011-02-26 04:49:47 <luke-jr> Java is crap
349 2011-02-26 04:49:48 <tcatm> gasteve: nope. but seperating core and UI is on the (unofficial) roadmap
350 2011-02-26 04:49:51 <Diablo-D3> your mom is crap
351 2011-02-26 04:49:55 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, java blows donkey c***
352 2011-02-26 04:50:03 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: up yours
353 2011-02-26 04:50:07 <Diablo-D3> javas faster than your shit, thats for sure
354 2011-02-26 04:50:19 <luke-jr> gasteve: MT`AwAy is working on a C wallet+peer, and Qt GUI
355 2011-02-26 04:50:25 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, clojure runs on JVM....
356 2011-02-26 04:50:29 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: qt is dead
357 2011-02-26 04:50:29 <luke-jr> gasteve: Spesmilo is a PySide GUI
358 2011-02-26 04:50:31 <gasteve> Smalltalk is my language of choice...I could probably live with Ruby...Javascript and Python behind that
359 2011-02-26 04:50:37 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: Java is more dead
360 2011-02-26 04:50:48 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: yet is slower unless you're on a jvm lang that supports the java 7 extensions and you're on java 7
361 2011-02-26 04:50:49 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: at least Qt is used for real programs :P
362 2011-02-26 04:51:01 <dissipate> java is a crap verbose language that lacks any decent functional features
363 2011-02-26 04:51:07 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: Qt is no longer maintained, and Microsoft is probably going to start suing over it.
364 2011-02-26 04:51:25 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: Microsoft can't sue over it, FUDer
365 2011-02-26 04:51:28 <gasteve> Java doesn't even have closures
366 2011-02-26 04:51:40 <dissipate> gasteve, don't even get me started on generics
367 2011-02-26 04:51:41 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: they can now! the new head of nokia is a microsofty
368 2011-02-26 04:51:48 <luke-jr> C++ may suck, but it's certainly better than Python, Ruby, and Java
369 2011-02-26 04:51:49 <dissipate> java generics: *BARF*
370 2011-02-26 04:51:51 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, you can sue over anything lolololol
371 2011-02-26 04:51:52 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: irrelevant.
372 2011-02-26 04:51:55 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: and microsoft may or may not be buying nokia too
373 2011-02-26 04:51:59 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: Qt is BSD licensed as soon as Nokia abandons it.
374 2011-02-26 04:52:09 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: software patents care not what the license is.
375 2011-02-26 04:52:14 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, dem patents
376 2011-02-26 04:52:32 <gasteve> it won't be long before all these language perform at near C++ speeds
377 2011-02-26 04:52:33 <Diablo-D3> nokia is just the new novell.
378 2011-02-26 04:52:37 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: what patents?
379 2011-02-26 04:52:44 <luke-jr> gasteve: impossible
380 2011-02-26 04:52:46 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: ask nokia.
381 2011-02-26 04:52:49 <gasteve> not at all
382 2011-02-26 04:53:00 <phantomcircuit_> Peer -> MessageReader -> command parsers
383 2011-02-26 04:53:02 <phantomcircuit_> wat
384 2011-02-26 04:53:05 <gasteve> are you familiar with runtime dynamic translation technologies?
385 2011-02-26 04:53:13 <luke-jr> gasteve: to perform anything close, they would need to compile to native binaries
386 2011-02-26 04:53:20 <gasteve> they do
387 2011-02-26 04:53:28 <gasteve> well, not Ruby, not Python
388 2011-02-26 04:53:28 <luke-jr> any dynamic translation requires CPU time to translate.
389 2011-02-26 04:53:35 <gasteve> but Smalltalk, Self, Javascript do
390 2011-02-26 04:53:42 <gasteve> (Googles v8 VM does)
391 2011-02-26 04:53:48 <luke-jr> C++ compiles up-front
392 2011-02-26 04:53:57 <gasteve> (I used to do a lot of work on virtual machines)
393 2011-02-26 04:53:57 <luke-jr> gasteve: V8 isn't really ECMAScript compliant
394 2011-02-26 04:54:03 <gasteve> so
395 2011-02-26 04:54:08 <luke-jr> and again, it's dynamic
396 2011-02-26 04:54:12 <luke-jr> that has overhead
397 2011-02-26 04:54:18 <gasteve> not really
398 2011-02-26 04:54:21 <luke-jr> yes really
399 2011-02-26 04:54:26 <gasteve> heh
400 2011-02-26 04:54:32 <luke-jr> all that time C++ takes to compile a binary, is done at runtime
401 2011-02-26 04:54:44 <gasteve> nope
402 2011-02-26 04:54:50 <luke-jr> so instead of an up-front compile wait, you have general slowdown when you run it and it does the same crap
403 2011-02-26 04:55:13 <gasteve> dynamic translation can analyze and optimize while running and once optimized, can be turned off
404 2011-02-26 04:55:30 <luke-jr> still has to do it every time you run it
405 2011-02-26 04:55:34 <gasteve> so, in reality, a dynamic translation system can do a better job than a static, up front compiler
406 2011-02-26 04:55:41 <Diablo-D3> btw, ruby and python on the jvm is pretty fast
407 2011-02-26 04:55:44 <gasteve> no, it's doesn't have to do it every time
408 2011-02-26 04:55:48 <Diablo-D3> its faster than their own vms
409 2011-02-26 04:56:13 <luke-jr> gasteve: on top of that, it's basically impossible to debug
410 2011-02-26 04:56:21 <gasteve> no, it isn't
411 2011-02-26 04:56:29 <gasteve> far easier to debug in fact
412 2011-02-26 04:56:40 <luke-jr> so where is gdb going to get the debugging symbols for the dynamic crap?
413 2011-02-26 04:57:01 <luke-jr> how do you know the dynamic stuff won't change at the end user's system and introduce new bugs?
414 2011-02-26 04:57:21 <gasteve> well, to explain that over IRC would be quite tedious
415 2011-02-26 04:57:32 <foucist> Diablo-D3: i guess i'm actually wondering what it would take to code a bitcoin miner in machine lang for a multi-core architecture..  i imagine the parallelizing would require some specific management of shuttling the data around and such
416 2011-02-26 04:57:35 <luke-jr> you can't, unless its "optimization" is generic
417 2011-02-26 04:57:57 <foucist> so i guess i'm interested in looking at any bitcoin miner or sha-256 implementation that actually shows how to parallelize it
418 2011-02-26 04:58:00 <foucist> i dunno
419 2011-02-26 04:58:12 <luke-jr> foucist: you just do N instances of it
420 2011-02-26 04:58:49 <Diablo-D3> foucist: no, you dont parallelize the sha256 algo itself
421 2011-02-26 04:59:01 <Diablo-D3> foucist: you just run multiple copies of it in parallel
422 2011-02-26 04:59:09 <luke-jr> tcatm: btw, did anyone merge my bugfix yet?
423 2011-02-26 04:59:16 <tcatm> luke-jr: url?
424 2011-02-26 04:59:24 <luke-jr> tcatm: Gitorious bitcoin master branch
425 2011-02-26 04:59:36 <tcatm> that's not an url
426 2011-02-26 04:59:38 <foucist> luke-jr: well what if a core can't contain a sha-256 hash or the instructions (i.e. it can only do parts of it at a time)
427 2011-02-26 04:59:47 <Diablo-D3> foucist: thats nonsensical
428 2011-02-26 04:59:57 <luke-jr> tcatm: http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/7884be12f59d285c705b4e1f60eb984eacebd7c8
429 2011-02-26 05:00:03 <Diablo-D3> sha256 only uses extremely basic integer ops
430 2011-02-26 05:00:17 <gasteve> luke-jr: there was a good google tech talk on what they're doing to make dynamic languages (javascript specifically) every bit as performant and debuggable as something like C
431 2011-02-26 05:00:29 <gasteve> (basically so you can have your cake and eat it too)
432 2011-02-26 05:00:54 <luke-jr> gasteve: it's impossible. you can never do more without consuming more resources.
433 2011-02-26 05:01:11 <gasteve> it's not impossible...I promise you
434 2011-02-26 05:01:26 <gasteve> what you say is true (you can't do more without consuming more resources)
435 2011-02-26 05:01:36 <luke-jr> you can argue you're consuming less *human* resources, which is the whole basis to interpreted languages in the first place, but it's still going to use more CPU time no matter what
436 2011-02-26 05:01:44 <gasteve> however, that's not a good analogy
437 2011-02-26 05:01:54 <gasteve> wrong
438 2011-02-26 05:02:08 <luke-jr> any kind of runtime compiling is inherently doing more than precompiled
439 2011-02-26 05:02:32 <luke-jr> and people have been claiming Java is faster than C/C++ for years now
440 2011-02-26 05:02:42 <luke-jr> yet it's still AWFUL SLOW in practice
441 2011-02-26 05:02:54 <luke-jr> not to mention bloatedly eats memory like a pig
442 2011-02-26 05:03:35 <phantomcircuit_> gasteve, you realize that googles latest javascript engine is faster specifically because it avoids compiling to native binaries for rarely used code right?
443 2011-02-26 05:03:46 <luke-jr> and finally, Java doesn't implement native GUI widgets on *any* platform
444 2011-02-26 05:03:53 <gasteve> what dynamic translation does is compile on the fly exactly the right things...think of it like running unit tests and analyzing the code paths as they execute and then optimizing the hell out of those paths...then freezing those optimizations (so that when you distribute, you have the benefit of those optimizations without the overhead of doing them at runtime)
445 2011-02-26 05:04:36 <luke-jr> gasteve: that's nothing more than an ordinary compiler, then.
446 2011-02-26 05:05:07 <luke-jr> except one that's very slow as it optimizes manually
447 2011-02-26 05:05:17 <luke-jr> rather than using logical code analysis
448 2011-02-26 05:05:20 <gasteve> sort of...except your ordinary compiler isn't actually running your code to find out the best optimizations...it's only doing static analysis
449 2011-02-26 05:05:29 <phantomcircuit_> not to mention one that runs at the sametime you want the program to run
450 2011-02-26 05:05:30 <luke-jr> exactly my point.
451 2011-02-26 05:05:42 <luke-jr> static analysis is far faster
452 2011-02-26 05:05:44 <phantomcircuit_> gasteve, only if you're being lazy
453 2011-02-26 05:05:48 <foucist> luke-jr: yeah i really don't understand that claim..  i mean sure, JVM is fast, ruby on jvm runs faste than regular ruby etc..  but yeah, it's sad that most java apps are so damned slow
454 2011-02-26 05:05:54 <phantomcircuit_> code profiling isn't exactly new
455 2011-02-26 05:07:27 <gasteve> btw, while no Java fan, I will say that well factored, object oriented code is faster in Java than in C++
456 2011-02-26 05:08:20 <gasteve> (but, that doesn't change the fact that a lot of the Java code out there is bloated and very poorly written)
457 2011-02-26 05:08:39 <luke-jr> gasteve: that's why Qt apps run plenty fast and Java apps are slow?
458 2011-02-26 05:08:49 <Diablo-D3> so how is java slow?
459 2011-02-26 05:08:53 <Diablo-D3> no one has yet to explain that one.
460 2011-02-26 05:09:00 <Diablo-D3> oh I know what this is called! FUD!
461 2011-02-26 05:09:05 <Diablo-D3> now go fuck yourselves.
462 2011-02-26 05:09:08 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: it's called experience
463 2011-02-26 05:09:21 <foucist> it's called actual usability of running java apps
464 2011-02-26 05:09:23 <foucist> on average computers
465 2011-02-26 05:09:25 <Diablo-D3> <luke-jr> I once used this badly coded program on java 1.2, and it was slow
466 2011-02-26 05:09:32 <Diablo-D3> experience my dick.
467 2011-02-26 05:09:41 <luke-jr> is Java 2 out now?
468 2011-02-26 05:09:53 <foucist> java IDEs, java torrent client, and other common java apps..  woahhhh nelly
469 2011-02-26 05:10:01 <Diablo-D3> no one cares what java did 10 years ago
470 2011-02-26 05:10:05 <Diablo-D3> people only care what java does now.
471 2011-02-26 05:10:17 <gasteve> eh...anyhow...my point is that there is nothing that precludes these dynamic languages from running as fast a C or C++ (in fact, dynamic translation should benefit C/C++ as well)...it's just a matter of time
472 2011-02-26 05:10:29 <luke-jr> when is Java going to implement native widgets for my OS?
473 2011-02-26 05:10:38 <Diablo-D3> gasteve: luke-jr is just trolling
474 2011-02-26 05:10:38 <luke-jr> rather than looking ugly Java-ish?
475 2011-02-26 05:10:45 <Diablo-D3> java DOES run as fast as C in a lot of cases.
476 2011-02-26 05:10:58 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: it already has for years.
477 2011-02-26 05:11:13 <luke-jr> gasteve: only if you disable the dynamic translation as you said, which makes it the same as a normal binary
478 2011-02-26 05:11:19 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: nope
479 2011-02-26 05:11:24 <gasteve> luke-jr: yes
480 2011-02-26 05:11:40 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: I dunno man, SWT works great.
481 2011-02-26 05:11:45 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: my OS's native toolkit is Qt. Where is the Qt implementation of Java's GUI APIs?
482 2011-02-26 05:11:53 <luke-jr> ok, where is the Qt impl of SWT?
483 2011-02-26 05:12:21 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: why would they need one?
484 2011-02-26 05:12:29 <luke-jr> because that's what native means, idiot
485 2011-02-26 05:12:33 <Diablo-D3> arent you theming your gtk apps using the gtk-qt engine?
486 2011-02-26 05:12:47 <luke-jr> it doesn't mean make crap look ugly on your own
487 2011-02-26 05:12:50 <luke-jr> I don't have GTK apps
488 2011-02-26 05:12:51 <Diablo-D3> and btw, swt finally is getting a qt engine, to make the tiny minority of KDE idiots shut up.
489 2011-02-26 05:13:06 <Diablo-D3> thats right: gtk is the native ui toolkit of linux
490 2011-02-26 05:13:09 <Diablo-D3> anything else is dead.
491 2011-02-26 05:13:12 <luke-jr> Linux is a kernel.
492 2011-02-26 05:13:15 <luke-jr> GTK is crap.
493 2011-02-26 05:13:18 <Diablo-D3> fucking kde users, get a life
494 2011-02-26 05:13:21 <gasteve> wxWidgets still compiling
495 2011-02-26 05:13:29 <foucist> Diablo-D3: don't assume he's a kde user :P
496 2011-02-26 05:13:31 <Diablo-D3> DURR HURR BLING BLING AND FANCY SHADOWS
497 2011-02-26 05:13:37 <Diablo-D3> foucist: no one else uses kde.
498 2011-02-26 05:13:38 <Diablo-D3> err
499 2011-02-26 05:13:39 <luke-jr> foucist: I am, because there's nothing better.
500 2011-02-26 05:13:40 <Diablo-D3> foucist: no one else uses qt
501 2011-02-26 05:13:47 <foucist> loads of linux users don't touch gnome or kde..
502 2011-02-26 05:13:54 <Diablo-D3> xfce uses gtk too.
503 2011-02-26 05:14:11 <afed> butt
504 2011-02-26 05:14:14 <Diablo-D3> and xfce is the majority of people who use linux on a day to day basis
505 2011-02-26 05:14:14 <luke-jr> the moment someone makes something better than KDE, I'm gone :P
506 2011-02-26 05:14:19 <foucist> yeah i don't install xfce because of that requirement hmm
507 2011-02-26 05:14:28 <foucist> (but then i only used tiling window managers and the like)
508 2011-02-26 05:14:30 <Diablo-D3> gnome and kde is for idiots who are stuck in windows and osx (respectively)
509 2011-02-26 05:14:37 <foucist> ion/wmii etc
510 2011-02-26 05:14:47 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: you wish
511 2011-02-26 05:15:08 <foucist> Diablo-D3: bit of a troll statement there :P
512 2011-02-26 05:15:30 <Diablo-D3> well, no, Im not specifically calling out ubuntu users here
513 2011-02-26 05:15:34 <luke-jr> also, I always thought GNOME looked like OSX more than Windows
514 2011-02-26 05:15:37 <Diablo-D3> ubuntu users on ubuntu gnome arent really on gnome
515 2011-02-26 05:15:44 <Diablo-D3> they're going to be soon on TEH FUTARS
516 2011-02-26 05:15:49 <Diablo-D3> ALL HAIL MICROSOFT UNITY
517 2011-02-26 05:15:51 <Diablo-D3> etc etc
518 2011-02-26 05:16:03 <gasteve> btw, http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2380603,00.asp
519 2011-02-26 05:16:08 <luke-jr> KDE looks like whatever the user wants it to :P
520 2011-02-26 05:16:19 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: so why cant I get it to not look like shit?
521 2011-02-26 05:16:21 <gasteve> Google's v8 will soon surpass JVM speeds
522 2011-02-26 05:16:24 <foucist> Diablo-D3: man what's all this mention of gnome, kde, ubuntu, xkfce etc?  everyone knows it's all about archilnux or gentoo w/ no kde or gnome :P
523 2011-02-26 05:16:40 <foucist> gasteve: isn't v8 javascript though? waht's that got to do with JVM
524 2011-02-26 05:16:45 <Diablo-D3> foucist: you're an idiot, alpine > arch > * > gentoo
525 2011-02-26 05:17:06 <Diablo-D3> javascript is far easier to optimize for a jvm in some places... try with a strongly typed language next time.
526 2011-02-26 05:17:06 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: incompetence?
527 2011-02-26 05:17:14 <gasteve> yes, it's built for javascript, but you could just as well run just about any language on it
528 2011-02-26 05:17:31 <foucist> Diablo-D3: you have a retarded tendency to say stupid shit like "you're an idiot" :)
529 2011-02-26 05:17:35 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: kde doesnt come with a basic looking theme that isnt bling
530 2011-02-26 05:17:41 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: theres no, say, clearlooks theme
531 2011-02-26 05:17:42 <phantomcircuit_> foucist, twm ftw
532 2011-02-26 05:17:55 <luke-jr> cuz Clearlooks is ugly
533 2011-02-26 05:17:58 <gasteve> here's smalltalk compiled down to javascript:  http://clamato.net/
534 2011-02-26 05:18:04 <luke-jr> Plastik looks fine
535 2011-02-26 05:18:06 <Diablo-D3> OH RIGHT, ITS NOT SHINEY, WHAT WAS I THINKING
536 2011-02-26 05:18:10 <Diablo-D3> noobs
537 2011-02-26 05:18:39 <gasteve> it gives you a pretty decent class browser right in your web browser
538 2011-02-26 05:18:56 <gasteve> (just like there are a number of languages that can run on the jvm)
539 2011-02-26 05:18:57 <Diablo-D3> gasteve: oh god what
540 2011-02-26 05:19:08 <luke-jr> actually, Clearlooks looks like a copyoff of Plastik
541 2011-02-26 05:20:50 <luke-jr> I need to get to bed
542 2011-02-26 05:20:51 <luke-jr> night
543 2011-02-26 05:21:21 <luke-jr> tcatm: don't forget to git pull http://git.gitorious.org/bitcoin/bitcoin.git master :P
544 2011-02-26 05:21:35 <foucist> btw, i heard the sha-256 hash depends heavily on multiplication?
545 2011-02-26 05:21:44 <foucist> wehn i look at the code it's mostly rotates and shifts?
546 2011-02-26 05:22:22 <luke-jr> foucist: shift left is multiplication
547 2011-02-26 05:22:43 <luke-jr> my 5 year old can multiply.
548 2011-02-26 05:22:48 <luke-jr> Tonal, of course. :p
549 2011-02-26 05:23:20 <foucist> heh, i still have that 16 base counting page open, still need to study it :P
550 2011-02-26 05:23:20 <gasteve> bed time
551 2011-02-26 05:23:38 <gasteve> (maybe wxWidgets will have compiled by morning...sheesh)
552 2011-02-26 05:23:56 <Diablo-D3> multiplication isnt nearly as bad as people think it is
553 2011-02-26 05:24:27 <foucist> yeah i dunno, saw osmeone say sha-256's biggest bottleneck was the multiplication
554 2011-02-26 05:24:49 <foucist> not sure what that's about, most cores implement shifting as a matter of course..
555 2011-02-26 05:25:09 <foucist> unless shifting itself is slow.. dunno
556 2011-02-26 05:46:43 <andrewh> foucist: it's supposed to be as hard as possible to mine bitcoins
557 2011-02-26 05:47:23 <andrewh> so it's not really a bottleneck in this case
558 2011-02-26 06:00:14 <Takyoji> Anyone happen to know of a decent GPU-based Bitcoin miner at all? I have a NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT, not sure of the details, but can lookup such if needed.
559 2011-02-26 06:06:48 <Keefe> Takyoji: that card should be able to hash at 25 mhps
560 2011-02-26 06:07:21 <Keefe> so like 10x an average cpu. not too bad
561 2011-02-26 06:07:57 <Takyoji> my CPU is working at 2900khps. :P
562 2011-02-26 06:08:01 <Keefe> a radeon 5970 is 20x faster that the 8800gt, but the 8800gt is probably still worth mining with
563 2011-02-26 06:08:02 <Takyoji> So it would help
564 2011-02-26 06:08:37 <Keefe> i guess you were asking for what software to use?
565 2011-02-26 06:08:56 <Keefe> look for poclbm or diablo
566 2011-02-26 06:09:17 <Keefe> or maybe puddinpop's
567 2011-02-26 06:09:38 <Takyoji> I'll see if I can find such
568 2011-02-26 06:11:00 <knotwork> ;;bc,calc 25000
569 2011-02-26 06:11:01 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 25000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 10 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 56 minutes, and 0 seconds
570 2011-02-26 06:11:39 <necrodearia> "I'm curious, what is the most expensive thing purchased with Bitcoins to this point?" - http://is.gd/ei5o39
571 2011-02-26 06:11:40 <knotwork> ;;bc,calc 27900
572 2011-02-26 06:11:41 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 27900 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 9 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 4 minutes, and 48 seconds
573 2011-02-26 06:11:55 <necrodearia> Anyone have an answer to the question?
574 2011-02-26 06:12:22 <knotwork> $45000 LR USD maybe?
575 2011-02-26 06:13:09 <knotwork> oh wait that hasn't been purchased with bitcoins yet due to it got frozen
576 2011-02-26 06:18:33 <Takyoji> Are there no official project pages/websites for the miners other than forum posts, (excluding poclbm, which has a github repository)?
577 2011-02-26 06:19:32 <Takyoji> Also, do such miners process a whole block itself, or work on a block collaboratively with other systems?
578 2011-02-26 06:21:46 <Takyoji> Because if I were just using my CPU alone for example, it would take over a year for me to just process one block, to get any currency if I was just working on a processing a block alone.
579 2011-02-26 06:23:51 <knotwork> there are a few pools, and a lot of the miner code can be used with pools
580 2011-02-26 06:24:32 <Takyoji> For a pool, does one have to manually configure their client to set a specific one?
581 2011-02-26 06:24:50 <knotwork> I dont know but imagine so
582 2011-02-26 06:25:23 <knotwork> not sure how its done, like how it would know which connection is pool which are just random connections
583 2011-02-26 06:25:39 <knotwork> maybe you run with only one connection when mining with pool, I just dont know
584 2011-02-26 06:26:09 <knotwork> since my CPU is lilkely even slower than yours and my graphics chips are mobo builtins or old pci cards
585 2011-02-26 06:26:56 <OneFixt> "Addresses in human-readable form are strings of random numbers and letters around 33 characters in length" - wiki
586 2011-02-26 06:27:05 <OneFixt> yet i've seen addresses only 34 characters in length
587 2011-02-26 06:27:11 <Takyoji> I just don't see how many will be persistent to have their client running at near full power for over a year and so, until they can get something in return
588 2011-02-26 06:27:13 <OneFixt> does it vary?
589 2011-02-26 06:29:26 <knotwork> Takyoji the cpu mining goldrush is over, the gpu goldrush is fast competing toward needing more efficient gpus
590 2011-02-26 06:30:00 <knotwork> addresses human readable is maybe in base 58
591 2011-02-26 06:30:23 <knotwork> that might give a "digit" or so of variance, plus leading zeros might be omittable
592 2011-02-26 06:31:38 <knotwork> I am hoping maybe eventually some gamers might decide it worth their cpu time to have cpu mine for gamecoins
593 2011-02-26 06:31:46 <knotwork> while their gpu mines bitcoins
594 2011-02-26 06:32:17 <AmpEater> I brought my first 4x pnu miner online
595 2011-02-26 06:32:49 <knotwork> I dont want GPUs mining gamecoins though as I want them to be nice to generate even for people using only cpu
596 2011-02-26 06:42:16 <Takyoji> Having an issue with "Wrong username or password"
597 2011-02-26 06:42:33 <Takyoji> Do I have to declare a username as well in bitcoin.conf for bitcoind?
598 2011-02-26 06:43:39 <knotwork> do --help to see switches
599 2011-02-26 06:43:55 <knotwork> or you can put it into ./bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
600 2011-02-26 06:44:11 <knotwork> username seems to default to current user running the thing
601 2011-02-26 06:44:23 <knotwork> so only password seems actually "required"
602 2011-02-26 06:44:37 <Takyoji> Unless if I have it too long or something. x
603 2011-02-26 06:44:38 <Takyoji> xP*
604 2011-02-26 06:44:47 <knotwork> also on bitcoind do just plain help without the --
605 2011-02-26 06:45:00 <knotwork> that shows actually commands instead of switches
606 2011-02-26 06:45:39 <knotwork> I have even run bitcoind as root so I dont think it likely it dont like username
607 2011-02-26 06:46:13 <knotwork> I havent made a .conf though I just have shell script that puts password on commandline
608 2011-02-26 06:46:23 <Takyoji> poclbm requires bitcoind to be running, yus?
609 2011-02-26 06:46:31 <knotwork> as I am on machine no others use so no concern about them seeing it with ps or top
610 2011-02-26 06:46:49 <knotwork> probably I think
611 2011-02-26 06:47:05 <knotwork> unless maybe when used as pool the pool serves that function
612 2011-02-26 06:47:21 <knotwork> s/as/with/
613 2011-02-26 06:47:53 <knotwork> bitcoin or bitcoind, bitcoin is just a bitcoind with a GUI built on
614 2011-02-26 06:49:41 <Takyoji> I get an issue of "Problems communicating with bitcoin RPC" when using the GUI-based one.
615 2011-02-26 06:50:22 <Takyoji> when I try running poclbm
616 2011-02-26 06:51:09 <knotwork> maybe gui one has different defaults about whether to have the RPC interface activated
617 2011-02-26 06:52:09 <knotwork> did you compile bitcoin{|d} yourself?
618 2011-02-26 06:52:18 <Takyoji> No, used the precompiled version
619 2011-02-26 06:52:55 <knotwork> also is poclbm a script or binary? if script it might have things it expects you to set inside the script itself
620 2011-02-26 06:53:17 <Takyoji> It's a Python script, which accepts CLI parameters
621 2011-02-26 06:53:42 <knotwork> for everything? no things in script itself wanting editting?
622 2011-02-26 06:54:27 <knotwork> does the script maybe expect to use https instead of http?
623 2011-02-26 06:54:50 <Takyoji> Nothing to be editted in it or any of that, I can double check
624 2011-02-26 06:55:05 <Takyoji> I was reading the source code for the CLI parameters, as well
625 2011-02-26 06:55:09 <knotwork> bitcoin{d} defaults to just http you need more switches set to tell it to use https
626 2011-02-26 06:55:20 <knotwork> like telling it where your certificate is
627 2011-02-26 06:57:15 <knotwork> did you tell bitcoind -server, or - daemon ?
628 2011-02-26 06:57:33 <knotwork> s/- dae/-dae/
629 2011-02-26 06:58:40 <Takyoji> Now I've finally got the GUI running as a server and everything, and have poclbm authorized properly with it, but now have an error of "Bitcoin is not connected"
630 2011-02-26 06:58:45 <knotwork> oh! maybe it has to finish downloading the 119k+ blocks of blockchain before it is ready to do anything
631 2011-02-26 06:59:05 <knotwork> if this is first time you have run bitcoind
632 2011-02-26 06:59:08 <Takyoji> I already downloaded all the blocks
633 2011-02-26 06:59:19 <Takyoji> 110558 blocks
634 2011-02-26 06:59:24 <knotwork> well it must have connected to get the blocks
635 2011-02-26 06:59:39 <Takyoji> But yes, after I ran bitcoin from CLI with the specified parameters, it not doesn't connect
636 2011-02-26 06:59:42 <Takyoji> Unless
637 2011-02-26 07:00:07 <Takyoji> Yea, all I needed was the -server parameter
638 2011-02-26 07:00:51 <checksum> hello , after hearing about the sourceforge hacking i was wondering if you have a checksum hash of the executables available for download ?
639 2011-02-26 07:01:08 <knotwork> yes you need either -server or -daemon to make it accept commands it seems
640 2011-02-26 07:01:51 <Takyoji> But I also specified rpcuser and rpcpassword, and when I did such, that's when it wasn't connected to Bitcoin successfully
641 2011-02-26 07:02:02 <Takyoji> Now I have it working
642 2011-02-26 07:02:15 <Takyoji> 25800kh/s
643 2011-02-26 07:02:38 <knotwork> see if you can also turn on the cpu in the bitcoin itself
644 2011-02-26 07:03:17 <necrodearia> hmmm, would http://careers.witcoin.com/ possibly be useful for posting job/career opportunities?
645 2011-02-26 07:03:29 <Takyoji> It says 26000khps, while for the CPU, it's 2500khps
646 2011-02-26 07:03:36 <knotwork> you might total 28700 instead of the 27900 I had gribble calculate earlierr
647 2011-02-26 07:04:32 <knotwork> great so you should get on avg about 5 blocks a year via gpu plus good chance of one via cpu
648 2011-02-26 07:04:43 <knotwork> that assumes 24/7 operation though
649 2011-02-26 07:04:48 <Takyoji> ;;bc,calc 28500
650 2011-02-26 07:04:58 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 28500 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 9 weeks, 0 days, 14 hours, 15 minutes, and 27 seconds
651 2011-02-26 07:05:09 <knotwork> one of my machines is so old just trying to cpu mine 24/7 leads to bios shutting it down for overheating
652 2011-02-26 07:05:18 <Takyoji> heh
653 2011-02-26 07:05:38 <Takyoji> Yea, I probably might want to throttle my process just a little. xP
654 2011-02-26 07:05:58 <Takyoji> processor*
655 2011-02-26 07:06:12 <knotwork> luckily I only have to be connected to a second instance (the older machine) in order to mine Martian BotCoins privately
656 2011-02-26 07:06:21 <Takyoji> GPU is at 178 degrees Fahrenheit now
657 2011-02-26 07:06:30 <knotwork> you might want to look into util for setting fan if such util exists for your card
658 2011-02-26 07:07:02 <knotwork> how much is that in standard units? or even kelvin? (where are you *from*? US?)
659 2011-02-26 07:07:20 <Takyoji> Minnesota in US, yes
660 2011-02-26 07:08:27 <Takyoji> I wonder if there's a way to throttle the GPU usage a little
661 2011-02-26 07:08:46 <knotwork> back in the prvious millenia I used to know conversion from fahrenheit to what was then known as centigrade
662 2011-02-26 07:08:52 <knotwork> but not anymore
663 2011-02-26 07:09:18 <knotwork> I know water boils at uh hmm was it 220? or less likely maybe it was 240?
664 2011-02-26 07:10:05 <Takyoji> 82 Celsius
665 2011-02-26 07:10:08 <knotwork> for ati cards there is a util that can set all kinds of stuff on them but no idea for your card
666 2011-02-26 07:10:11 <Takyoji> Is the current temperature
667 2011-02-26 07:10:33 <knotwork> I have seen a lot of folk say 80 but maybe 82 might be getting up there a bit
668 2011-02-26 07:11:10 <knotwork> also most cards don't assume player will be gaming hard 24/7
669 2011-02-26 07:12:02 <knotwork> I think some cards are only officially rated to 60 or thereabouts though others maybe its 80
670 2011-02-26 07:12:33 <Takyoji> So I might as well not try providing processing power then? xP
671 2011-02-26 07:12:38 <knotwork> a lot of people overclock, maybe googling that might find what utils they use for tuning cards
672 2011-02-26 07:13:14 <knotwork> well one could go through a lot of energy drinks to stay mentally alert while waiting 9 weeks to possibly get a block
673 2011-02-26 07:13:41 <knotwork> and that is mere avg remember, not sure if it is poisson or bell curve
674 2011-02-26 07:14:08 <knotwork> (maybe dont matter which both are variant forms of same info in a way)
675 2011-02-26 07:14:12 <Takyoji> So in some cases in may be shorter, and some may be longer?
676 2011-02-26 07:14:43 <knotwork> oh yeah. you might stumble on a block tonight then not get another for 18 or 27 or 36 or whatever weeks
677 2011-02-26 07:14:58 <knotwork> hence pools, they share out the winnings among those who contributed work
678 2011-02-26 07:15:48 <Takyoji> So is it pretty much brute-force, or?
679 2011-02-26 07:15:58 <knotwork> its lottery
680 2011-02-26 07:16:44 <knotwork> you arent getting closer and closer to answer, until at it so long that by then someone solved a block so you need
681 2011-02-26 07:16:53 <knotwork> to start over taking their new block into account
682 2011-02-26 07:16:55 <uni4dfx> how long does one diff usually last for?
683 2011-02-26 07:17:09 <knotwork> one diff ?
684 2011-02-26 07:17:17 <uni4dfx> difficulty
685 2011-02-26 07:17:35 <uni4dfx> how long until it increases
686 2011-02-26 07:17:48 <knotwork> oh every 210 blocks is it? approx 2 weeks divided by ten minutes, in blocks
687 2011-02-26 07:18:07 <uni4dfx> 2016 blocks afaik, but i didn't know how much that was in weeks
688 2011-02-26 07:18:23 <knotwork> until is re-calculates and either increases or decreases or stays same to try to maintain it taking 10 mins
689 2011-02-26 07:18:28 <knotwork> on avg to solve a block
690 2011-02-26 07:19:59 <knotwork> hence my one cpu at 500 or less khash/sec working all alone on Martian BotCoins takes on avg 10 mins per block
691 2011-02-26 07:20:20 <Takyoji> Is a person "allocated" a block to work at, or is it completely randomized?
692 2011-02-26 07:20:23 <knotwork> just like entire massive bunch of GPUs out there mining bitcoins take 10 mins per block between the lot of them
693 2011-02-26 07:20:54 <knotwork> you invent the block with a transaction saying you got 50 coin for solving block
694 2011-02-26 07:21:23 <knotwork> you need hash of previous longest chain last valid block to work with of course
695 2011-02-26 07:21:39 <knotwork> and optionally include other people's transactions if you like the fees they chose to offer
696 2011-02-26 07:22:08 <knotwork> (by default you dont require them to pay a fee at all and include enough trans that it is maybe pretty much all
697 2011-02-26 07:22:16 <knotwork> at current rate of transaction traffic)
698 2011-02-26 07:22:22 <Takyoji> So perhaps I could run the application once in a while for like the span of a year, then eventually have it payout?
699 2011-02-26 07:22:41 <knotwork> yeah could get lucky any time
700 2011-02-26 07:23:00 <Takyoji> Also, as more blocks are calculated, does it get computationally harder for future ones, or?
701 2011-02-26 07:23:02 <knotwork> you could also maybe hack it to start nonce incrementing at some random nonce value instead
702 2011-02-26 07:23:09 <knotwork> of always iterating upward
703 2011-02-26 07:23:33 <Takyoji> I'm also curious the power usage cost of my system right now
704 2011-02-26 07:23:37 <knotwork> the difficulty is recomputed every (what would at tem mins per be 2 weeks) blocks
705 2011-02-26 07:24:16 <uni4dfx> so basically you need to double your GPU stack every two weeks
706 2011-02-26 07:24:24 <knotwork> look up max power draw of your card and cpu I guess
707 2011-02-26 07:24:52 <knotwork> no not double, expected next change is for it to go up maybe 40 or 50 percent
708 2011-02-26 07:25:08 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,stats
709 2011-02-26 07:25:09 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110561 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 318 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 9 hours, 44 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 52903.30311391
710 2011-02-26 07:25:22 <knotwork> and as summer comes so less people need to heat their home with GPUs maybe some will find it not
711 2011-02-26 07:25:23 <dissipate> yikes
712 2011-02-26 07:25:28 <uni4dfx> 52900
713 2011-02-26 07:25:34 <knotwork> so good to spend all that electricity on heat
714 2011-02-26 07:25:35 <uni4dfx> that's a heck of a lot more
715 2011-02-26 07:25:42 <dissipate> ouch
716 2011-02-26 07:25:44 <Takyoji> 105Watt
717 2011-02-26 07:25:53 <uni4dfx> now you need two 5970's to get 50BTC a day
718 2011-02-26 07:25:58 <uni4dfx> next week you'll need four
719 2011-02-26 07:26:30 <knotwork> the guy trying to sell 2 5970's for 1600 bitcoin or less thought they would, not counting electricity cost,
720 2011-02-26 07:26:55 <knotwork> pay for themselves in about a month. someone else said no way, more like two maybe three months,
721 2011-02-26 07:27:07 <knotwork> and remember difficulty it tending upwards lately
722 2011-02-26 07:27:17 <uni4dfx> they pay for themselves eventually, but you won't be making profit
723 2011-02-26 07:27:47 <knotwork> exactly. I am hoping that as bitcoin mining gets less and less attractive to small players
724 2011-02-26 07:28:00 <knotwork> mining Martian Bitcoins instead might start to look good
725 2011-02-26 07:28:11 <uni4dfx> Martian Bitcoins?
726 2011-02-26 07:28:16 <Blitzboom> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin.png
727 2011-02-26 07:28:16 <knotwork> depending on how much Martian Bitcoins are valued by then of course
728 2011-02-26 07:28:23 <Blitzboom> difficulty is rising exponentially
729 2011-02-26 07:28:25 <uni4dfx> although.... there is one important point here
730 2011-02-26 07:28:36 <uni4dfx> the BTC-->USD index
731 2011-02-26 07:28:39 <knotwork> a game currency, implemented by hacking the -testnet switch of bitcoin and bitcoind
732 2011-02-26 07:28:39 <uni4dfx> is also rising exponentially
733 2011-02-26 07:28:51 <knotwork> so when I tell them -testnet they do Martian Bitcoins instead
734 2011-02-26 07:29:10 <Blitzboom> uni4dfx: hmm. you could be right
735 2011-02-26 07:29:21 <uni4dfx> so even though it gets harder and harder to gain the 50 BTC
736 2011-02-26 07:29:26 <uni4dfx> it's worth more and more
737 2011-02-26 07:29:30 <knotwork> since -testnet wiped out all its value lately so I have no vision of ever wanting or needing to use actual testnet
738 2011-02-26 07:29:32 <uni4dfx> so it kinda cancels out
739 2011-02-26 07:30:00 <Diablo-D3> erm
740 2011-02-26 07:30:00 <knotwork> yes the cost to mine gold uh I mean to generate coins might help uphold price of coins
741 2011-02-26 07:30:02 <Diablo-D3> its a testnet
742 2011-02-26 07:30:05 <Diablo-D3> you do realize that, right?
743 2011-02-26 07:30:22 <knotwork> as miners might be reluctant to sell coins at less than the cost of generating them
744 2011-02-26 07:30:30 <uni4dfx> exactly
745 2011-02-26 07:30:51 <knotwork> testnet is a test net yes, but Martian Bitcoins have a different IRC channel and genesis block
746 2011-02-26 07:31:00 <uni4dfx> it's like the oil price, if it becomes more difficult to find the oil, the price will go u p
747 2011-02-26 07:31:04 <uni4dfx> up*
748 2011-02-26 07:31:31 <Takyoji> Will there perhaps be a point where there's no longer interest/incentive for bitcoin mining?
749 2011-02-26 07:31:38 <knotwork> maybe but also the beverly hillbillies who lucked onto huge reservoir in early days dirt cheap
750 2011-02-26 07:31:50 <knotwork> might decide to start cashing in their huge reservoirs
751 2011-02-26 07:32:22 <knotwork> incentive to mine will have to be provided by the transaction fees once all 21m or so coins have been mined
752 2011-02-26 07:32:56 <Syke> my last block solved gave me 50.03 coins!
753 2011-02-26 07:33:27 <knotwork> .03 in transaction fees
754 2011-02-26 07:34:37 <Syke> yup, bonus
755 2011-02-26 07:34:59 <uni4dfx> Syke what kind of HW are you using
756 2011-02-26 07:35:32 <Syke> i've got 3 boxes, 2x5870, 5870+5770, and 6950
757 2011-02-26 07:36:30 <uni4dfx> so that what like 1Ghash/s ?
758 2011-02-26 07:36:51 <uni4dfx> 1.5
759 2011-02-26 07:36:55 <Syke> yeah, 1.5
760 2011-02-26 07:37:21 <knotwork> ;;bc,calc 15000
761 2011-02-26 07:37:22 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 15000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 17 weeks, 1 day, 19 hours, 53 minutes, and 21 seconds
762 2011-02-26 07:37:28 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 150000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 1 week, 5 days, 1 hour, 59 minutes, and 20 seconds
763 2011-02-26 07:37:28 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,calc 150000
764 2011-02-26 07:37:33 <uni4dfx> ffs
765 2011-02-26 07:37:38 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,calc 1500000
766 2011-02-26 07:37:39 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1500000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 1 day, 4 hours, 59 minutes, and 56 seconds
767 2011-02-26 07:37:41 <uni4dfx> this
768 2011-02-26 07:37:49 <knotwork> ;;bc,calc 15000000
769 2011-02-26 07:37:50 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 15000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 2 hours, 53 minutes, and 59 seconds
770 2011-02-26 07:38:05 <uni4dfx> so
771 2011-02-26 07:38:11 <uni4dfx> when the diff goes up tomorrow
772 2011-02-26 07:38:21 <knotwork> 8 blocks a day?
773 2011-02-26 07:38:49 <knotwork> 400 bitcoins a day those 3 machines have been making lately?
774 2011-02-26 07:38:52 <uni4dfx> you typed in 15Ghash/s
775 2011-02-26 07:39:00 <knotwork> ah
776 2011-02-26 07:39:02 <knotwork> ;;bc,calc 1500000
777 2011-02-26 07:39:03 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1500000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 1 day, 4 hours, 59 minutes, and 56 seconds
778 2011-02-26 07:39:20 <uni4dfx> now
779 2011-02-26 07:39:24 <knotwork> still, enough to live on
780 2011-02-26 07:39:25 <uni4dfx> tomorrow the diff will change
781 2011-02-26 07:39:29 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,stats
782 2011-02-26 07:39:31 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110564 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 315 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 9 hours, 25 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 52903.95476885
783 2011-02-26 07:39:36 <uni4dfx> and with that diff
784 2011-02-26 07:39:56 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,calcd 52904 1500000
785 2011-02-26 07:39:57 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 52904 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1500000, is 3 years, 44 weeks, 6 days, 10 hours, 44 minutes, and 14 seconds
786 2011-02-26 07:39:58 <Syke> someone...
787 2011-02-26 07:40:00 <uni4dfx> woops
788 2011-02-26 07:40:08 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1500000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 52904, is 1 day, 18 hours, 4 minutes, and 40 seconds
789 2011-02-26 07:40:08 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,calcd 1500000 52904
790 2011-02-26 07:40:10 <genjix> anyone here from germany?
791 2011-02-26 07:40:15 <Syke> has been cranking up some extra hashes lately
792 2011-02-26 07:40:32 <Mango-chan> http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/185754_204432659574285_100000226582379_936925_80191_n.jpg
793 2011-02-26 07:40:39 <Mango-chan> do you like my android wall
794 2011-02-26 07:40:53 <genjix> anyone here from germany?
795 2011-02-26 07:41:01 <uni4dfx> genjix nein
796 2011-02-26 07:42:13 <uni4dfx> i got 0.2 BTC in 5 hours -__-
797 2011-02-26 07:42:20 <uni4dfx> waste of time
798 2011-02-26 07:42:58 <dirtyfilthy> i've been thinking a reputation system for bitcoin would be a valuable service, but i'm trying to figure out how it would work, and what features it would have. Does anyone have any examples of reputation systems they thing are effective?
799 2011-02-26 07:43:14 <knotwork> gribble has one here
800 2011-02-26 07:43:29 <knotwork> or on #bitcoin-otc anyway
801 2011-02-26 07:43:44 <dirtyfilthy> yeah that's a good point, i should look into how the otc web of trust works
802 2011-02-26 07:45:23 <dirtyfilthy> i'm reading through these http://www.stanford.edu/group/reputation/ for ideas
803 2011-02-26 07:47:05 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1200000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 52904, is 2 days, 4 hours, 35 minutes, and 50 seconds
804 2011-02-26 07:47:05 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,calcd 1200000 52904
805 2011-02-26 07:48:52 <knotwork> maybe it could be possible to calculate how many protein folding attempts ought to take 10 minutes,
806 2011-02-26 07:49:04 <knotwork> and thus cure cancer while generating coins
807 2011-02-26 07:49:46 <genjix> can someone send me 0.5 btc to 1KyZ9WHksec4VT9yfnLYK8R38kZ88unyoM so I can send an SMS to germany?
808 2011-02-26 07:49:56 <genjix> i dont have any btc atm :p
809 2011-02-26 07:50:34 <Takyoji> Gah, if only more context was on a wiki rather than fragmented throughout a forum as different posts.
810 2011-02-26 07:50:35 <knotwork> man SMSs are expensive how many bytes is that?
811 2011-02-26 07:50:38 <Takyoji> more content*
812 2011-02-26 07:50:43 <genjix> 160
813 2011-02-26 07:51:10 <dirtyfilthy> Takyoji: you could start solving that problem :)
814 2011-02-26 07:51:25 <knotwork> not satisfied to nickel and dime you to death now they have to 0.5 bitcoin you to death :)
815 2011-02-26 07:51:31 <Takyoji> I'd just need to have an understanding myself. :P
816 2011-02-26 07:51:42 <uni4dfx> genjix nice try http://www.kumita.de/
817 2011-02-26 07:52:06 <genjix> thanks
818 2011-02-26 07:52:21 <genjix> +352 691 444 302
819 2011-02-26 07:52:26 <Takyoji> and I'm looking at pooled mining efforts, and one seems to be no longer accepting registration
820 2011-02-26 07:52:28 <genjix> how do I use that number?
821 2011-02-26 07:52:40 <genjix> they all start with 01
822 2011-02-26 07:53:01 <knotwork> one pool that looks closed you can actually get into by invite by contacting owner I think
823 2011-02-26 07:53:25 <knotwork> 01 is north america
824 2011-02-26 07:53:31 <knotwork> 352 might be germany
825 2011-02-26 07:53:50 <uni4dfx> yeah dude 352 is luxembourg
826 2011-02-26 07:53:54 <genjix> i know,  but that site uni4dfx linked has all the numbers starting with 01
827 2011-02-26 07:53:59 <knotwork> maybe thats a site for germans to sms to north america free if it assumes you want 01
828 2011-02-26 07:54:16 <knotwork> email the chap and tell HIM to sms YOU ;)
829 2011-02-26 07:54:22 <uni4dfx> genjix that's because your number is not in germany
830 2011-02-26 07:54:25 <genjix> cmon... nobody can donate 0.5 btc?
831 2011-02-26 07:54:44 <genjix> such stingy bastards
832 2011-02-26 07:54:54 <knotwork> any idea how many hours it'd take to generate 0.5 btc?
833 2011-02-26 07:55:05 <uni4dfx> you're an idiot for not knowing how to use free online sms services, you don't need 0.5btc for that
834 2011-02-26 07:55:30 <uni4dfx> knotwork on what hardware
835 2011-02-26 07:55:34 <knotwork> go hit up bitcoin faucet for 0.05 then put it through the bitcoin ponzi to multiply it
836 2011-02-26 07:56:13 <knotwork> <uni4dfx> i got 0.2 BTC in 5 hours -__-
837 2011-02-26 07:56:29 <uni4dfx> well i have a shitty 4870
838 2011-02-26 07:56:40 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 550 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 9 years, 1 week, 3 days, 7 hours, 53 minutes, and 23 seconds
839 2011-02-26 07:56:40 <knotwork> ;;bc,calc 550
840 2011-02-26 07:57:14 <knotwork> my cpu, with bitcoin niced and firefox being its usual hog and various other things including irc going on
841 2011-02-26 07:57:14 <uni4dfx> that's 9 years not considering the difficulty will change
842 2011-02-26 07:57:51 <knotwork> well luckily that is generating Martian Bitcoins, using the full computer power of the entire Martian planet known as M5
843 2011-02-26 07:57:58 <uni4dfx> knotwork there's literally no point in CPU mining, you'll just waste money by using power
844 2011-02-26 07:58:01 <knotwork> plus maybe also computers on planets known as M4 and M6
845 2011-02-26 07:58:29 <knotwork> I am using power anyway, plus it is february in canada e.g. not currently summer
846 2011-02-26 07:58:53 <knotwork> plus like I said I am mining Martian BotCoins, so getting one block each 10 mins on average
847 2011-02-26 07:59:29 <knotwork> that is entire Freeciv Galactic Milieu's BotCoin generating power at present Galactic Milieu time
848 2011-02-26 07:59:52 <knotwork> and maybe Martians only ones mining, not having to share with any other nations
849 2011-02-26 08:00:02 <uni4dfx> except martian bitcoins are worthless
850 2011-02-26 08:00:09 <knotwork> not to Martians hahahahah
851 2011-02-26 08:00:25 <dirtyfilthy> hahaha
852 2011-02-26 08:00:29 <Takyoji> I also don't quite know the meaning of "Martian Bitcoins"
853 2011-02-26 08:00:39 <knotwork> also, they use Hacker nation software to do it, so genesis block belongs to hacker who authored the software
854 2011-02-26 08:01:01 <knotwork> so maybe who knows some of the blocks are actually being generated by Hackers or other nations/planets
855 2011-02-26 08:01:20 <knotwork> the Hackers want to help out but not by giving them genuine Hacker bitcoins
856 2011-02-26 08:01:32 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,calcd 600000 52904
857 2011-02-26 08:01:33 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 600000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 52904, is 4 days, 9 hours, 11 minutes, and 41 seconds
858 2011-02-26 08:02:04 <knotwork> Martian Bitcoins are a whole separate currency run by minimally hacked bitcoin{|d} code
859 2011-02-26 08:02:39 <uni4dfx> so you think they'll one day be used like ordinary bitcoins?
860 2011-02-26 08:02:57 <knotwork> think "Martial" and also "uh gee sounds vaguely fictional or at least otherworldy"
861 2011-02-26 08:03:30 <uni4dfx> Martial BotCoins
862 2011-02-26 08:03:31 <knotwork> no it is a game currency, thus unlike using real currency hopefully not causing games using it to be casinos
863 2011-02-26 08:03:44 <knotwork> BotCoins, right. MBC
864 2011-02-26 08:04:38 <knotwork> it can maybe help do the two currencies approach to RPG game economies
865 2011-02-26 08:04:49 <Takyoji> Dangit, looked for another bitcoin pool that is now allegedly defunct
866 2011-02-26 08:05:02 <knotwork> pay bitcoin to get into game, but game does not pay out bitcoin as that would make it a casino
867 2011-02-26 08:05:27 <knotwork> nonetheless, the code of the game currency is ideally suited to eventual trading among players P2P
868 2011-02-26 08:05:49 <knotwork> if thewn some players on tor traded for real currency well not sure I could do much to prevent that
869 2011-02-26 08:06:23 <uni4dfx> i think i'll go to a computer shop today and install a few miners on the demo computers there
870 2011-02-26 08:06:38 <knotwork> I would not be surprised to find players who get rich in Galactic Milieu but find they hate the game
871 2011-02-26 08:06:55 <knotwork> ending up trading their MBC for Wow gold or whatever other game they want to try next
872 2011-02-26 08:07:35 <Takyoji> So you can apparently send bitcoin currency, by IP address, correct?
873 2011-02-26 08:07:43 <knotwork> deprecated
874 2011-02-26 08:07:51 <knotwork> you send to bitcoin address
875 2011-02-26 08:08:15 <knotwork> transaction saying so is sent to all your connections they send it to theirs etc
876 2011-02-26 08:08:36 <knotwork> and miners start trying to solve a block containing that new transaction
877 2011-02-26 08:09:08 <knotwork> no record of IP address appears in block chain, just bitcoin addresses
878 2011-02-26 08:09:30 <uni4dfx> how would i install the miner on a store computer that usually has a locked-down version of win7 running
879 2011-02-26 08:09:31 <knotwork> you can create new bitcoin addresses for yourself at press of a GUI button.
880 2011-02-26 08:09:53 <knotwork> reocmmended any time you want to charge someone some bitcoins you create a new address for them to send to
881 2011-02-26 08:10:08 <knotwork> so you know when it arrives not only who sent it but what they sent it for
882 2011-02-26 08:10:38 <knotwork> uni4dfx if lock down is real, you'd first unlock it presumably.
883 2011-02-26 08:10:50 <knotwork> stick in a knoppix disk and press reset switch?
884 2011-02-26 08:10:51 <uni4dfx> do i really need to
885 2011-02-26 08:11:01 <knotwork> or is reset locked so you'd have to pull wallplug?
886 2011-02-26 08:11:02 <uni4dfx> well i can't do that, it has to run on there unnoticed
887 2011-02-26 08:11:14 <knotwork> so define locked down
888 2011-02-26 08:11:20 <uni4dfx> no admin privileges
889 2011-02-26 08:11:27 <uni4dfx> so you can't install shit
890 2011-02-26 08:11:39 <knotwork> oh you'd run it as a user then. but can you even log on as a user?
891 2011-02-26 08:11:46 <uni4dfx> usually you can
892 2011-02-26 08:12:12 <knotwork> can you plug in a stick, drag drop package onto desktop, and install on user account desk
893 2011-02-26 08:12:12 <uni4dfx> but i need to run the miner without having to install the ATI Stream SDK
894 2011-02-26 08:12:16 <uni4dfx> no
895 2011-02-26 08:12:20 <knotwork> instead of to admin privs areas of system
896 2011-02-26 08:12:26 <uni4dfx> i don't think so
897 2011-02-26 08:12:41 <uni4dfx> and even if, that's a lot of work
898 2011-02-26 08:12:52 <uni4dfx> i just need to somehow copy a package on there and click run
899 2011-02-26 08:12:57 <knotwork> disguise as tech rep of manufacturer and give story about to avoid recalling the boxes you have been sent to upgrade them
900 2011-02-26 08:12:58 <uni4dfx> has to be a quick operation
901 2011-02-26 08:13:26 <knotwork> would internet cafe boxes be easier than ones in a store?
902 2011-02-26 08:13:34 <uni4dfx> unlikely
903 2011-02-26 08:13:42 <uni4dfx> and they probably wouldn't have a good GPU
904 2011-02-26 08:14:16 <knotwork> make an attract mode they can run on monitors in display window of shop, and include miner in it
905 2011-02-26 08:14:31 <knotwork> then convince them they will sell more machines with that cool ad mode in window
906 2011-02-26 08:14:53 <uni4dfx> right
907 2011-02-26 08:14:54 <knotwork> or even that they can earn real money running adverts screensaver that pays
908 2011-02-26 08:15:03 <uni4dfx> they're not THAT dumb :P
909 2011-02-26 08:15:07 <knotwork> but again dont just give them that app also throw in miner
910 2011-02-26 08:15:21 <knotwork> you really can earn money with screensavers
911 2011-02-26 08:15:47 <knotwork> admittedly you might make more by using your screensaver ad credits to actually advertise stuff on other
912 2011-02-26 08:16:05 <knotwork> people's boxes all over the world than by simply selling the credits or accepting cahs instead of credits
913 2011-02-26 08:16:42 <uni4dfx> well technically it's still a screensaver... even though it doesn't exactly save any of the other computer parts (especially the GPU) :P
914 2011-02-26 08:16:52 <knotwork> wont their GPUs be louder when mining? so they might notice store is full of screaming fans?
915 2011-02-26 08:17:02 <uni4dfx> nah the stores are noisy
916 2011-02-26 08:17:19 <uni4dfx> they won't notice as long as the frames aren't too high and there is no noticeable lag
917 2011-02-26 08:17:30 <uni4dfx> too low*
918 2011-02-26 08:17:54 <Takyoji> There are BTC to USD exchanges, yus?
919 2011-02-26 08:18:02 <knotwork> tell them you wont buy the box if it cannot run the demo of the game you want to buy it for
920 2011-02-26 08:18:02 <uni4dfx> yes
921 2011-02-26 08:18:21 <uni4dfx> knotwork i don't plan on telling them anything :D
922 2011-02-26 08:18:23 <knotwork> so install the "demo" find it isnt quite good enough box, and "uninstall" it
923 2011-02-26 08:18:54 <uni4dfx> oh yea
924 2011-02-26 08:19:10 <uni4dfx> "do you have something with a better GPU, i don't think this one will suffice"
925 2011-02-26 08:19:20 <Takyoji> So, in general, what would be a reason for numerous people to transfer part of their funds to BTC, and exchange currency in BTC in comparison to USD-based electronic payment systems?
926 2011-02-26 08:19:42 <uni4dfx> Takyoji the BTC value is rising
927 2011-02-26 08:20:09 <knotwork> Takyoji: because USD is a PITA to use online. chargeback hell for one thing.
928 2011-02-26 08:20:41 <knotwork> cannot sell anything for USD that isn't basically a throwaway item as if you do scammer will simply do chargeback
929 2011-02-26 08:20:48 <knotwork> after taking delivery of the item
930 2011-02-26 08:21:38 <knotwork> case in point: selling bitcoins. or porn site memberships. or live video chats with attractive duct taped hamsters or whatever
931 2011-02-26 08:21:47 <Takyoji> and also, there wouldn't be as much interest a bank would make through a transaction, in comparison to BTC, correct?
932 2011-02-26 08:22:18 <knotwork> well yeah, compare default 0.01 BTC fee with paypal's fee schedule
933 2011-02-26 08:23:01 <knotwork> and paypal is cheap compared to some "solutions" that might eat 18% of a $450 you try to send from
934 2011-02-26 08:23:06 <knotwork> New Zealand to Australia
935 2011-02-26 08:23:52 <knotwork> you could buy a lot of really nice energy drink rootbeer with what otherwise fees would eat
936 2011-02-26 08:24:23 <knotwork> so its simple, wanna eat fees or drink healthy energy drink? no-brainer? ;)