1 2011-02-27 00:02:15 <dirtyfilthy> amiller: true, true
  2 2011-02-27 00:03:15 <dirtyfilthy> require deposit to setup relay. keep transactions under that amount + reward relays a percentage
  3 2011-02-27 00:03:54 <dirtyfilthy> in the end i guess you need to trust somebody
  4 2011-02-27 00:04:46 <amiller> that's an interesting point though
  5 2011-02-27 00:04:55 <amiller> you could easily set up an insurance thing
  6 2011-02-27 00:04:56 <amiller> another problem is
  7 2011-02-27 00:05:12 <amiller> how would you prove that the relay didn't do what it was asked
  8 2011-02-27 00:05:25 <dirtyfilthy> yeah that is a good point
  9 2011-02-27 00:05:37 <amiller> here's a related question that might lead to a good solution
 10 2011-02-27 00:05:52 <amiller> is there a way to get a certificate that says that you transferred a certain value of bitcoins somewhere
 11 2011-02-27 00:05:56 <amiller> but it doesn't say which one
 12 2011-02-27 00:06:06 <amiller> you could have a big escrow service
 13 2011-02-27 00:06:20 <amiller> alice would transfer X BTC to the service and obtain a certificate worth X btc
 14 2011-02-27 00:06:44 <dirtyfilthy> ah yeah, which she would then redeem
 15 2011-02-27 00:06:46 <amiller> alice would use a pseodonym and from another address, ask the escrow to transfer
 16 2011-02-27 00:06:47 <theymos> Bitcoin-backed Open Transactions certificates could do that, though this is a centralized method.
 17 2011-02-27 00:07:20 <amiller> i think i'm ok if it's centralized, as long as you don't have to give it information you're afraid it will give up
 18 2011-02-27 00:07:30 <amiller> so let me look that up
 19 2011-02-27 00:07:46 <amiller> or explain it here if that's not too much trouble
 20 2011-02-27 00:07:56 <dirtyfilthy> bitcoin bearer bonds
 21 2011-02-27 00:08:35 <theymos> I don't know much about it. fellowtraveler's posts are all about Open Transactions in relation to Bitcoin: https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=846;sa=showPosts
 22 2011-02-27 00:09:49 <amiller> is there a canonical term or a discussion for this question?
 23 2011-02-27 00:09:59 <amiller> for which open transactions may be considered a proposed solution
 24 2011-02-27 00:17:24 <amiller> it looks like no one has vouched for or reviewed fellowtravellers stuff
 25 2011-02-27 00:19:31 <presence> you guys know of a decent case to cool a mining host?
 26 2011-02-27 00:19:46 <presence> I dont care if it has PSU, I have that
 27 2011-02-27 00:20:10 <theymos> amiller: That's because his documentation sucks. But the principles behind ricardian contracts, triple-entry accounting, etc. has been well-covered in academia, I believe.
 28 2011-02-27 00:21:06 <amiller> that sounds good, is there a good curated bibliography for this
 29 2011-02-27 00:22:10 <amiller> or even better a summary of those principles used to show the feasibility of anonymous transactions
 30 2011-02-27 00:23:58 <theymos> I don't know any off-hand. There's some stuff here: http://iang.org/papers/ . Also search the Bitcoin forum.
 31 2011-02-27 00:25:21 <amiller> okay, thank you that's very helpful
 32 2011-02-27 00:27:00 <amiller> i hope it's alright if i report back here anything interesting i find
 33 2011-02-27 00:27:08 <dirtyfilthy> definitely
 34 2011-02-27 00:30:24 <benmanns> What's the best way to integrate bitcoin into a shop application?
 35 2011-02-27 00:30:33 <theymos> Use MyBitcoin.
 36 2011-02-27 00:33:14 <jgarzik> bencoder: mybitcoin SCI
 37 2011-02-27 00:33:21 <jgarzik> benmanns: ^^
 38 2011-02-27 00:35:08 <luke-jr> benmanns: shop app?
 39 2011-02-27 00:42:03 <benmanns> luke-jr: a web store
 40 2011-02-27 00:45:33 <luke-jr> benmanns: JSON-RPC should do fine for that
 41 2011-02-27 00:46:02 <luke-jr> benmanns: for each checkout, generate a new address and tie it to the purchase
 42 2011-02-27 00:46:25 <luke-jr> have a cronjob scan all the pending purchase addresses for confirmations, and when they reach 6, ship
 43 2011-02-27 00:46:44 <luke-jr> (check the total amount sent to the address too!)
 44 2011-02-27 00:55:36 <mmarker> I think software in general hates me. Still trying to get my android app, bitcoind, and google to have a nice conversation. Instead, it's like thanksgiving.
 45 2011-02-27 01:20:38 <mmarker> damnit
 46 2011-02-27 01:20:59 <Kiba> dammmnit!
 47 2011-02-27 01:21:40 <mmarker> Forgot what package name I registered with google. So, therefor, no C2DM until they reactivate me.
 48 2011-02-27 01:21:43 <mmarker> Bastards
 49 2011-02-27 01:26:19 <Kiba> yeah! they're a bunch of bastard1
 50 2011-02-27 01:30:39 <antivigilante> i don't know what i'm doing
 51 2011-02-27 01:31:18 <antivigilante> i'm making coinz how do i get an address?
 52 2011-02-27 01:31:21 <mmarker> Well, it just means I can work on the crypto.
 53 2011-02-27 01:32:16 <[Tycho]> Pay-Per-Share mode deployed successfully :)
 54 2011-02-27 01:33:51 <antivigilante> so how do I gets my address??
 55 2011-02-27 01:34:38 <mmarker> Tycho: grats
 56 2011-02-27 01:34:53 <mmarker> Now I need to kick my emulator in the face some more.
 57 2011-02-27 01:35:28 <[Tycho]> :)
 58 2011-02-27 01:35:48 <mmarker> Tycho: I am determined to at least get my android app reading private/public keys
 59 2011-02-27 01:36:35 <[Tycho]> What language do you use ?
 60 2011-02-27 01:36:51 <mmarker> For android, programming it in Java, of course
 61 2011-02-27 01:37:03 <mmarker> I do have a beta for the MonoDroid, but it's beta
 62 2011-02-27 01:37:26 <[Tycho]> Someday i may try programming for android... If it's somehow possible with C :)
 63 2011-02-27 01:37:33 <mmarker> You can
 64 2011-02-27 01:37:41 <mmarker> you need to glue things with java here and there
 65 2011-02-27 01:37:50 <mmarker> but the NDK does allow C code to be thrown together
 66 2011-02-27 01:38:01 <mmarker> Dunno how easy it is to do a GUI in C
 67 2011-02-27 01:38:21 <[Tycho]> Currently i don't have android phone, but may be n900 will be my next communicator. Not android, but useful too.
 68 2011-02-27 01:39:21 <[Tycho]> It would be nice to implement payment app for smartphones.
 69 2011-02-27 01:39:35 <mmarker> Whadda think I'm working on :D
 70 2011-02-27 01:39:36 <antivigilante> how do I know my address - i'm using the console client
 71 2011-02-27 01:40:10 <[Tycho]> mmarker, it's may be not a full-featured client too.
 72 2011-02-27 01:40:32 <[Tycho]> antivigilante, have you tried reading RPC commands list ?
 73 2011-02-27 01:40:55 <antivigilante> yeah confused as Fox
 74 2011-02-27 01:41:05 <mmarker> Yea, my current idea is something to just throw together transactions, and get them out into the aether.
 75 2011-02-27 01:41:46 <mmarker> and validating, and, of course using QR codes...and if anyone wants to lend me a Nexus S, the Near-Field stuff may be nifty.
 76 2011-02-27 01:41:57 <mmarker> But first, I have to be able to assemble a transaction!
 77 2011-02-27 01:44:35 <luke-jr> antivigilante: what do you mean, you're making coinz?
 78 2011-02-27 01:45:01 <luke-jr> mmarker: be sure it handles HTTP redirects correctly ;)
 79 2011-02-27 01:45:15 <luke-jr> mmarker: that is, a http URI that redirects to a bitcoin URI
 80 2011-02-27 01:47:16 <mmarker> luke-jr: Should, I believe I can register the app as a bitcoin URI handler
 81 2011-02-27 01:47:49 <mmarker> so anything that WebKit runs across that it can't hack, get's popped into the right app
 82 2011-02-27 01:48:45 <luke-jr> mmarker: right, but I mean the QR-Codes are probably going to be HTTP URIs that generate an address and redirect
 83 2011-02-27 01:49:23 <luke-jr> mmarker: you're familiar with the bitcoin URI spec?
 84 2011-02-27 01:49:26 <mmarker> Yea
 85 2011-02-27 01:49:35 <mmarker> luke-jr: and Android will do the right thing
 86 2011-02-27 01:49:40 <mmarker> you can register a handler
 87 2011-02-27 01:49:49 <luke-jr> cool
 88 2011-02-27 01:50:01 <mmarker> Ok, I think I got C2DM working
 89 2011-02-27 01:50:31 <mmarker> Bwhahaha
 90 2011-02-27 01:51:52 <mmarker> Google fed me a bad cert
 91 2011-02-27 01:52:20 <brunner> how does the bitcoin client find its initial peers the first time it runs?
 92 2011-02-27 01:53:21 <mmarker> brunner: IRC!
 93 2011-02-27 01:53:29 <brunner> seriously?
 94 2011-02-27 01:53:37 <mmarker> Logs on to an irc server, at a specific channel. does a /who
 95 2011-02-27 01:53:46 <mmarker> Bam, list of IPs to start chatting up
 96 2011-02-27 01:53:49 <mmarker> Seriously!
 97 2011-02-27 01:53:51 <brunner> ...
 98 2011-02-27 01:54:02 <mmarker> It's in the source code
 99 2011-02-27 01:54:18 <mmarker> There's also a hardcoded list of nodes in case if IRC doesn't work
100 2011-02-27 01:54:38 <brunner> how much of a pain is it to compile bitcoin from source?
101 2011-02-27 01:54:42 <luke-jr> irc.lfnet.org #bitcoin
102 2011-02-27 01:54:45 <luke-jr> brunner: huge
103 2011-02-27 01:55:04 <brunner> really?
104 2011-02-27 01:55:12 <mmarker> wx-2.9 is bad
105 2011-02-27 01:55:22 <mmarker> boost could be worse if your distro doesn't have it around
106 2011-02-27 01:55:30 <mmarker> irc.cpp
107 2011-02-27 01:56:09 <luke-jr> wx * is bad
108 2011-02-27 01:56:22 <luke-jr> wx-bitcoin build system is worse
109 2011-02-27 01:56:23 <luke-jr> :p
110 2011-02-27 01:56:30 <mmarker> Heh
111 2011-02-27 01:56:36 <mmarker> It's all a hardcoded makefile
112 2011-02-27 01:56:39 <luke-jr> mmarker: boost is practically standard C++ nowadays, every distro has it
113 2011-02-27 01:56:46 <mmarker> it COULD be written in SCons :D
114 2011-02-27 01:56:56 <luke-jr> mmarker: it could be qmake
115 2011-02-27 01:57:04 <luke-jr> I actually use qmake myself
116 2011-02-27 01:57:09 <luke-jr> never could get the makefile BS to work
117 2011-02-27 01:57:11 <mmarker> ok, I got what I needed to get working, working
118 2011-02-27 01:57:22 <mmarker> Now to spend time with wifey
119 2011-02-27 01:57:30 <luke-jr> jgarzik promised autotools for next version
120 2011-02-27 01:57:32 <mmarker> and jarjar some bouncycastle
121 2011-02-27 01:59:28 <dirtyfilthy> mmarker just packaging up my bouncy castle for you now dude
122 2011-02-27 02:00:44 <Guest46506> trying to find an exchange that i can just use paypal straight up with...  is there such a thing?
123 2011-02-27 02:00:47 <brunner> didn't someone make another bitcoin client?
124 2011-02-27 02:01:15 <brunner> Guest46506: I'll trade with you, using paypal
125 2011-02-27 02:01:47 <Guest46506> yeahh, no thanks
126 2011-02-27 02:02:35 <brunner> Guest46506: okay, whatever. you're the one with an unregistered nick.
127 2011-02-27 02:02:55 <Guest46506> just started bitcoin like 10 minutes ago
128 2011-02-27 02:03:22 <Brent> not entirely sure how it all works yet
129 2011-02-27 02:03:41 <brunner> Brent: well, you should be fine, as long as you're not in California.
130 2011-02-27 02:03:47 <Brent000> lol
131 2011-02-27 02:03:52 <Brent000> oh?
132 2011-02-27 02:03:57 <Brent000> and... if i was?
133 2011-02-27 02:04:03 <brunner> yeah. it's banned. they'll jail you.
134 2011-02-27 02:04:09 <Brent000> wow!
135 2011-02-27 02:04:15 <Brent000> god bless america lol
136 2011-02-27 02:04:28 <Brent000> that stupid
137 2011-02-27 02:04:33 <Brent000> im california
138 2011-02-27 02:04:47 <ArtForz> duh, bitcoin is known to the state of california to cause cancer. *ducks*
139 2011-02-27 02:05:04 <brunner> Brent000: well, you should still be fine as long as you're nowhere near Fresno
140 2011-02-27 02:05:35 <Brent000> ...
141 2011-02-27 02:05:40 <Brent000> why fresno?
142 2011-02-27 02:05:44 <ArtForz> rofl
143 2011-02-27 02:05:58 <brunner> Brent000: local government crackdowns
144 2011-02-27 02:06:17 <Brent000> wow
145 2011-02-27 02:06:28 <brunner> and Comcast has been known to terminate accounts of Bitcoin users
146 2011-02-27 02:06:34 <brunner> so make sure you're using DSL
147 2011-02-27 02:06:42 <dissipate> brunner: really?
148 2011-02-27 02:06:46 <brunner> No.
149 2011-02-27 02:06:48 <ArtForz> or just google geoip ;)
150 2011-02-27 02:06:49 <Brent000> brunner took my ip
151 2011-02-27 02:06:52 <Brent000> tracked it to fresno
152 2011-02-27 02:06:54 <Brent000> there you go lol
153 2011-02-27 02:07:08 <Brent000> he should of created a visual basic gui to track my ip <dun dun dun>
154 2011-02-27 02:07:10 <Brent000> lol
155 2011-02-27 02:07:37 <brunner> Brent000: there's an exchanger that uses paypal -- can't remember the name -- but it's limited to $40 or so
156 2011-02-27 02:07:42 <brunner> which is useless to me
157 2011-02-27 02:08:04 <Brent000> yeah i found that one
158 2011-02-27 02:08:07 <brunner> I've been trading OTC, but I just opened up a bank account to make using Mt Gox easier
159 2011-02-27 02:08:09 <Brent000> 40 bucks + 2 bucks per transaction
160 2011-02-27 02:08:13 <Brent000> i wanted to spend more than that
161 2011-02-27 02:08:13 <dissipate> i'm looking to exchange up to 3 ounces of pure gold for BTC
162 2011-02-27 02:08:16 <brunner> yeah, ridiculous
163 2011-02-27 02:08:31 <brunner> dissipate: I'll do that
164 2011-02-27 02:09:00 <Brent000> brunner yolu have a website of some sort? or some kind of  method where you can insure delivery?
165 2011-02-27 02:09:19 <brunner> Brent000: there is a ratings system. join #bitcoin-otc
166 2011-02-27 02:10:15 <dissipate> brunner: i'm looking for someone in my city (san diego) to trade with is the problem
167 2011-02-27 02:10:28 <brunner> dissipate: I have employees in LA
168 2011-02-27 02:10:47 <dissipate> brunner: oh cool
169 2011-02-27 02:11:41 <brunner> dissipate: if you deliver to them, I would consider it a delivery to me
170 2011-02-27 02:12:19 <dissipate> brunner: would i be able to meet them in person to do the exchange?
171 2011-02-27 02:12:29 <brunner> Brent0001: I have a personal website, and several business websites, but nothing bitcoin-related
172 2011-02-27 02:12:32 <brunner> dissipate: yes.
173 2011-02-27 02:13:00 <brunner> dissipate: assuming you're not going to harm my programmers
174 2011-02-27 02:13:09 <brunner> I need them.
175 2011-02-27 02:13:11 <dissipate> brunner: sweet. i go up to l.a. a lot to visit my sister
176 2011-02-27 02:13:18 <brunner> dissipate: well then let me know
177 2011-02-27 02:13:40 <Brent0001> brunner how do i check your reputation again?
178 2011-02-27 02:14:04 <dissipate> brunner: i'm a programmer myself and i don't hurt my own kind. :D
179 2011-02-27 02:14:05 <Brent0001> you buy, sell, or both?
180 2011-02-27 02:14:12 <dissipate> brunner: what's your email?
181 2011-02-27 02:14:19 <brunner> dissipate: I just msg'd it to you
182 2011-02-27 02:14:49 <dissipate> brunner: oh sorry, i'm in the web client, didn't see it. cool.
183 2011-02-27 02:14:56 <brunner> no problem
184 2011-02-27 02:17:42 <comboy> slush: ?
185 2011-02-27 02:20:47 <comboy> it turns out it's still possible to cheat with current algorithm, but very hard and marginally porfitable (+3%)
186 2011-02-27 02:22:09 <TripleBla> Hello! Im new to bit coin :)!
187 2011-02-27 02:22:15 <TripleBla> trying to learn the ropes :P
188 2011-02-27 02:22:59 <Brent0001> me too
189 2011-02-27 02:28:02 <sgornick> MT`AwAy: ,,(bc,wiki)  problems ...
190 2011-02-27 02:28:03 <gribble> https://bitcoin.it/ | Feb 21, 2011 ... Sourced from Wikipedia. Bitcoin is a digital currency created in 2009 by Satoshi Nakamoto. It is also the name of the open source software ...
191 2011-02-27 02:29:01 <MT`AwAy> sgornick: I know
192 2011-02-27 02:30:03 <MT`AwAy> still waiting for freaking ips on new servers, got the issue escalated to its highest and not paying until I got the ips, but in the meantime I still have to use the current serv
193 2011-02-27 02:30:24 <MT`AwAy> should be better now
194 2011-02-27 02:33:05 <luke-jr> O.o
195 2011-02-27 02:33:09 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: I have plenty of IPs :D
196 2011-02-27 02:33:30 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr: I have plenty of ips too, just not announced in the right datacenter
197 2011-02-27 02:33:50 <luke-jr> :p
198 2011-02-27 02:33:52 <MT`AwAy> I'm moving stuff away from softlayer as their network sucks
199 2011-02-27 02:34:04 <luke-jr> should get a VPS from me :D
200 2011-02-27 02:34:23 <MT`AwAy> you do VPS with 32GB ram ?
201 2011-02-27 02:34:25 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: btw, you should probably be involved in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
202 2011-02-27 02:34:29 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: erm, no. :p
203 2011-02-27 02:35:05 <MT`AwAy> I got two servers with 32GB ram each, 2x2TB hdd, 2x64GB SSD hdd and dual xeon quad
204 2011-02-27 02:35:09 <MT`AwAy> but no ips on those
205 2011-02-27 02:35:10 <MT`AwAy> :D
206 2011-02-27 02:35:25 <MT`AwAy> (I advised the uplink provider I wouldn't pay until I had ips)
207 2011-02-27 02:35:25 <u2time> MT'Away you want to do a vpn? I can get you IP's
208 2011-02-27 02:35:54 <phantomcircuit> MT`AwAy, you got sql servers installed with logs on the ssds?
209 2011-02-27 02:35:57 <MT`AwAy> u2time: I'll eventually get my ips, in the meantime I just reduce load on the current serv and monitor it closely
210 2011-02-27 02:35:59 <phantomcircuit> it makes a HUGE difference
211 2011-02-27 02:36:28 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: you're aware there are no more IPs? :P
212 2011-02-27 02:36:28 <u2time> MT'away, will your uplink providers let you do bgp and advertise a block? i have a couple /24's not being used
213 2011-02-27 02:36:36 <MT`AwAy> phantomcircuit: I'm still running experimentation with the SSD disks, but there are many ways to get performance boost from those little gems :p
214 2011-02-27 02:37:05 <TripleBla> So what kind of comfirmation do i get that im using my CPU to earn Bitcoin :)??
215 2011-02-27 02:37:23 <phantomcircuit> TripleBla, if you're using cpu you're likely wasting your time
216 2011-02-27 02:37:24 <luke-jr> TripleBla: you're not.
217 2011-02-27 02:37:25 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr: ARIN still have ips :p
218 2011-02-27 02:37:31 <MT`AwAy> u2time: they wouldn't let me use just any ASN, and anyway that's too much trouble for now
219 2011-02-27 02:37:32 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: not many
220 2011-02-27 02:37:42 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr: more than what I need :p
221 2011-02-27 02:37:48 <TripleBla> BAH, what am I to do?? And what exactly is the cpu cycling used for solving??
222 2011-02-27 02:37:59 <luke-jr> TripleBla: it's bruteforcing a puzzle.
223 2011-02-27 02:38:11 <u2time> ASN costs only like $300 or so
224 2011-02-27 02:38:19 <luke-jr> TripleBla: it's also costing you more in electricity than it will ever find in bitcoins
225 2011-02-27 02:38:34 <u2time> cpu mining is about like playing loto
226 2011-02-27 02:38:46 <TripleBla> so can i work on the puzzle mathematically by hand?
227 2011-02-27 02:38:59 <luke-jr> TripleBla: a human might find a block in a couple of millenia.
228 2011-02-27 02:39:01 <MT`AwAy> anyway the thing is I'm migrating servers doing web hosting, with lots of ssl certificates, and most customers don't want to throw away people using MSIE+WinXP yet
229 2011-02-27 02:39:07 <MT`AwAy> if I could do that, I wouldn't need that many ips
230 2011-02-27 02:39:16 <luke-jr> TripleBla: there is no way to solve the puzzle other than bruteforcing.
231 2011-02-27 02:39:24 <TripleBla> im getting abuot 100 blocks a second, decent? :P
232 2011-02-27 02:39:32 <luke-jr> TripleBla: no, you're not.
233 2011-02-27 02:39:37 <TripleBla> -_-?
234 2011-02-27 02:39:55 <TripleBla> not 100 bitcoin, 100 blocks and counting ++
235 2011-02-27 02:39:56 <luke-jr> even if you were the only person mining, it would only be 1 every 10 minutes on average
236 2011-02-27 02:39:57 <phantomcircuit> TripleBla, where are you getting this # from?
237 2011-02-27 02:39:59 <TripleBla> im at like 13,000
238 2011-02-27 02:40:08 <luke-jr> TripleBla: each block is worth 50 BTC
239 2011-02-27 02:40:16 <luke-jr> TripleBla: you mean downloading the existing blocks I think
240 2011-02-27 02:40:17 <antivigilante> I have the bitcoind running on my machine how do I get the address
241 2011-02-27 02:40:22 <luke-jr> that doesn't get you anything
242 2011-02-27 02:40:24 <TripleBla> maybe my PC is counting the existing ones -_-
243 2011-02-27 02:40:29 <luke-jr> antivigilante: use a client
244 2011-02-27 02:40:52 <luke-jr> TripleBla: even the best CPUs only perform maybe 7 MH/s
245 2011-02-27 02:40:54 <MT`AwAy> anyway I'm going to have more time available now, finally passed the big japanese ecommerce fair I had to do end of last week, and got quite a few contacts from there
246 2011-02-27 02:40:56 <antivigilante> luke-jr i'm confused i'm on debian
247 2011-02-27 02:40:57 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 7000
248 2011-02-27 02:40:57 <[Noodles]> TripleBla: it's just downloading the blockchain
249 2011-02-27 02:40:58 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 7000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 36 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 2 minutes, and 54 seconds
250 2011-02-27 02:41:12 <luke-jr> TripleBla: at that rate, they will find a block (50 BTC) in 36 weeks.
251 2011-02-27 02:41:19 <luke-jr> TripleBla: but that goes up every 2 weeks
252 2011-02-27 02:41:42 <luke-jr> antivigilante: Debian doesn't have any clients packaged yet
253 2011-02-27 02:41:48 <TripleBla> luke-jr:  what is this 7 MH/S, and what puzle is my machine going to be working on, and the point of it lol
254 2011-02-27 02:42:01 <luke-jr> antivigilante: download http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/spesmilo/commits/tonal#.tgz and run that
255 2011-02-27 02:42:22 <luke-jr> TripleBla: the point of the puzzle is to be difficult to solve, and take 10 minutes on average
256 2011-02-27 02:42:47 <luke-jr> 7 Mega-Hashes per Second is how many times the fastest CPU can bruteforce it
257 2011-02-27 02:42:56 <luke-jr> 7 million times every second
258 2011-02-27 02:42:58 <[Noodles]> the fastest?
259 2011-02-27 02:43:20 <[Noodles]> even my X3 does 7.6Mhash and it's not that fast
260 2011-02-27 02:43:26 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: wtf?
261 2011-02-27 02:43:42 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: I have one of the new Sandy Bridge CPUs and it only does 4.5 MH/s -.-
262 2011-02-27 02:44:25 <[Noodles]> phenomII X3 720, 2600+khash per core
263 2011-02-27 02:44:38 <[Noodles]> at stock 2.8GHz
264 2011-02-27 02:44:51 <phantomcircuit> [Noodles], that's 2.6 MH/s
265 2011-02-27 02:44:52 <luke-jr> I guess Intel was a mistake.
266 2011-02-27 02:44:58 <[Noodles]> per core
267 2011-02-27 02:45:00 <[Noodles]> x3
268 2011-02-27 02:45:28 <phantomcircuit> oh
269 2011-02-27 02:45:31 <phantomcircuit> meh
270 2011-02-27 02:45:44 <phantomcircuit> either way you're still orders of magnitude away from profitable
271 2011-02-27 02:45:49 <luke-jr> XD
272 2011-02-27 02:45:55 <[Noodles]> so an X6 should get 15M++ easily
273 2011-02-27 02:45:58 <phantomcircuit> well depending on price of electricity you might be hovering on the edge
274 2011-02-27 02:46:12 <[Noodles]> sure, it's still NOT profitable
275 2011-02-27 02:46:22 <[Noodles]> that's why i only run miners on GPUs
276 2011-02-27 02:46:43 <luke-jr> so why do people still buy Intel if AMD kills them?
277 2011-02-27 02:47:08 <phantomcircuit> intel destroys amd in benchmarks...
278 2011-02-27 02:47:12 <phantomcircuit> which are likely bs
279 2011-02-27 02:50:52 <TripleBla> so..
280 2011-02-27 02:50:59 <TripleBla> average price of a bitcoin : USD
281 2011-02-27 02:51:07 <TripleBla> please, if someone could help on that lol =)
282 2011-02-27 02:51:09 <luke-jr> ;;bc,mtgox
283 2011-02-27 02:51:10 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.9645,"low":0.9111,"vol":4534,"buy":0.9331,"sell":0.957,"last":0.958}}
284 2011-02-27 02:51:16 <[Noodles]> average?
285 2011-02-27 02:51:23 <[Noodles]> on what timeframe
286 2011-02-27 02:51:42 <luke-jr> TripleBla: I'll sell ya 100 BTC for $125 ;)
287 2011-02-27 02:51:50 <TripleBla> ...
288 2011-02-27 02:51:56 <TripleBla> on that premise.
289 2011-02-27 02:52:03 <TripleBla> you understand or appreciate the USD
290 2011-02-27 02:52:11 <TripleBla> what if im on the other end of the stick
291 2011-02-27 02:52:35 <phantomcircuit> TripleBla, wat?
292 2011-02-27 02:52:42 <luke-jr> I'll buy your 100 BTC for $75 <.<
293 2011-02-27 02:53:02 <TripleBla> phantomcircuit:  wut wut
294 2011-02-27 02:54:07 <TripleBla> am I trolling if I ask for a a 1 bitcoin deposit to start my collection? I'll Screenshot my empty balance atm :)? lol
295 2011-02-27 02:54:59 <luke-jr> TripleBla: try the Faucet
296 2011-02-27 02:55:13 <TripleBla> i did today... crash :D
297 2011-02-27 02:55:18 <luke-jr> TripleBla: I'll send you 10 TBC, but not 1 BTC :P
298 2011-02-27 02:55:24 <Keefe> or mail me a $1 bill and i'll give you 1 bitcoin
299 2011-02-27 02:55:59 <TripleBla> wait, wtf is a TBC, and a BTC?
300 2011-02-27 02:56:21 <luke-jr> TripleBla: BTC is the majority use decimal representation :p
301 2011-02-27 02:56:31 <luke-jr> and probably the only one you care about unless you love to learn new things
302 2011-02-27 02:56:41 <TripleBla> i love teh learnz
303 2011-02-27 02:56:56 <luke-jr> TBC is the tonal representation, with a much smaller unit size
304 2011-02-27 02:57:20 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tonal_BitCoin
305 2011-02-27 02:57:33 <luke-jr> actually https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Units might be a better glimpse
306 2011-02-27 02:57:58 <Keefe> or you can learn this one as well: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Radial_BitCoin
307 2011-02-27 02:58:13 <luke-jr> Keefe: that one is a parody, and irrational
308 2011-02-27 02:58:18 <TripleBla> im sensing this has something to do with the amount of currency in circulation/??
309 2011-02-27 02:58:23 <luke-jr> TripleBla: no?
310 2011-02-27 02:58:32 <TripleBla> okay.
311 2011-02-27 02:58:38 <TripleBla> synopsis plz :D?
312 2011-02-27 02:58:47 <luke-jr> TripleBla: if you're confused, just stick to BTC :P
313 2011-02-27 02:58:59 <Keefe> tonal really has nothing to do with bitcoin
314 2011-02-27 02:59:17 <Keefe> luke-jr just likes to use an unconventional number system
315 2011-02-27 02:59:21 <luke-jr> :
316 2011-02-27 02:59:37 <luke-jr> I also prefer to send a smaller amount of money to newbie :p
317 2011-02-27 02:59:46 <Keefe> just send him 0.1 BTC
318 2011-02-27 02:59:53 <luke-jr> that's more than 10 TBC
319 2011-02-27 03:00:06 <Keefe> 0.01 BTC then
320 2011-02-27 03:00:20 <Keefe> no need to make bitcoin seem more complicated
321 2011-02-27 03:00:27 <luke-jr> he hasn't posted an address
322 2011-02-27 03:00:42 <TripleBla> so Bitcoin is the first, global, universal currency, based through internet trading and availability - eh?
323 2011-02-27 03:01:13 <luke-jr> TripleBla: depends on how those commas parse :P
324 2011-02-27 03:01:30 <luke-jr> food is the first global universal currency. but not based through internet.
325 2011-02-27 03:01:35 <TripleBla> lol.
326 2011-02-27 03:01:36 <TripleBla> shaddap
327 2011-02-27 03:01:50 <TripleBla> foods a barter tool, not a currency
328 2011-02-27 03:02:12 <TripleBla> unless you equivelate 1 load of bread = 10 carrots, 5 apples, 1 jar of [x], etc
329 2011-02-27 03:02:20 <luke-jr> TripleBla: same for bitcoin then
330 2011-02-27 03:02:30 <TripleBla> ahh yaa.
331 2011-02-27 03:02:36 <TripleBla> currency is misused on my part than
332 2011-02-27 03:02:38 <Kiba> food are barter
333 2011-02-27 03:02:40 <TripleBla> "system of economics"
334 2011-02-27 03:02:56 <Kiba> note: luke-jr is a nutcase
335 2011-02-27 03:04:14 <luke-jr> Kiba: *cough*
336 2011-02-27 03:04:45 <ArtForz> note: luke-jr is a nutcase with a cough
337 2011-02-27 03:06:19 <TripleBla> so who's gonna donate '1' bit of coin to me lol
338 2011-02-27 03:07:25 <luke-jr> TripleBla: impractical
339 2011-02-27 03:07:41 <TripleBla> =(
340 2011-02-27 03:07:43 <luke-jr> to send 0.00000001 BTC, you'd need to pay a 0.01 BTC fee
341 2011-02-27 03:07:48 <TripleBla> lol :D!
342 2011-02-27 03:08:05 <luke-jr> also, your client has a bug that will just throw that 0.00000001 BTC away
343 2011-02-27 03:08:09 <TripleBla> oh so that's the processing fee i was seeing in the client? Where does the fee go to? the founders? lol
344 2011-02-27 03:08:20 <luke-jr> to the miner who generates the block with the tx
345 2011-02-27 03:08:23 <Keefe> no, whoever finds the next block
346 2011-02-27 03:08:28 <Keefe> yep
347 2011-02-27 03:09:17 <TripleBla> haha thats wicked
348 2011-02-27 03:09:48 <TripleBla> so what good is bitcoin if the internet goes out :D
349 2011-02-27 03:10:01 <TripleBla> zomga, internet killswitch111
350 2011-02-27 03:10:01 <u2time> man, I can just imagine it.  Bitcoin panhandlers. Bitcoin beggers.  On a whole new spam level.
351 2011-02-27 03:10:47 <luke-jr> TripleBla: globally?
352 2011-02-27 03:11:00 <TripleBla> pft.
353 2011-02-27 03:11:29 <TripleBla> I remember checking the availiability of Bitcoin recipients in the market (about a year ago) and checking the acceptance in the market now (10 minutes ago) .. and the list has grown exponentially
354 2011-02-27 03:13:31 <TripleBla> so where are the 4.7 million bit coins that have not been issued??
355 2011-02-27 03:15:30 <luke-jr> 15.5 you mean
356 2011-02-27 03:15:35 <luke-jr> they're being issued each block
357 2011-02-27 03:15:41 <luke-jr> goes to the miner, like fees
358 2011-02-27 03:23:17 <TripleBla> wait, 15.5 million bitcoins  waiting to be issued??
359 2011-02-27 03:23:25 <TripleBla> damn this money brings out the worst, and best in people.
360 2011-02-27 03:24:58 <gavinandresen> antivigilante:  RE: how do you get a receiving address from bitcoind--   after you run bitcoind once,  run it again as:     bitcoind getnewaddress
361 2011-02-27 05:25:25 <RBecker> ;;bc,blocks
362 2011-02-27 05:25:26 <gribble> 110832
363 2011-02-27 06:18:04 <knotwork> I have just confirmed by trying it again that cpu mining on my old server triggers bios heat detectors to shut down the machine
364 2011-02-27 06:18:13 <knotwork> even using nice
365 2011-02-27 06:18:32 <theymos> Can you limit the number of cores?
366 2011-02-27 06:18:36 <knotwork> only took an hour or to to do it
367 2011-02-27 06:19:00 <knotwork> cores hahahah not sure it even has cores, its a 686 clone did they have cores?
368 2011-02-27 06:19:28 <knotwork> no wait maybe its a pentium II clone, the II means some early version of cores maybe?
369 2011-02-27 06:20:31 <theymos> I doubt it.
370 2011-02-27 06:20:46 <knotwork> me too :)
371 2011-02-27 06:20:53 <theymos> You could underclock it.
372 2011-02-27 06:21:23 <knotwork> nah my desktop box cpu mines nicely enough for current purpose
373 2011-02-27 06:21:41 <lfm> knotwork: is the fan still running? is the heatsink clean?
374 2011-02-27 06:21:50 <[Tycho]> May be it's AMD ?
375 2011-02-27 06:22:13 <knotwork> strangely the fan didnt do the periodic going into overdrive behavior I have often observed
376 2011-02-27 06:22:45 <knotwork> it might not be temerature really it might be software glitch, last few fedoras I typically would get the shutdown
377 2011-02-27 06:22:53 <lfm> knotwork: some old fans slow down a lot before they quit
378 2011-02-27 06:22:58 <knotwork> during the upgrade process. lot of fun that
379 2011-02-27 06:23:34 <knotwork> once the upgrade was complete the frequent shutdowns ceased
380 2011-02-27 06:24:05 <knotwork> but this apparent correlation with mining does seem likely to actually be related to actual heat not just
381 2011-02-27 06:24:17 <knotwork> some kind of misconfiguration of bos or software glitch
382 2011-02-27 06:24:58 <lfm> try vacuuming out the heatsink, make sure all the fans are still running correctly. A dead case fane might cause overheating too
383 2011-02-27 06:26:32 <lfm> see if lm_sensors works to minitor fans and temps
384 2011-02-27 06:27:56 <knotwork> thanks when it has had time to cool off I'll yum for lm_sensors once rebooted
385 2011-02-27 06:29:23 <lfm> knotwork: seems like you're not keen to get inside and clean it out?
386 2011-02-27 06:30:37 <knotwork> awkward to get inside even though case is open, as side toward me is the bottom side e.g. mostly not reachable into
387 2011-02-27 06:31:12 <knotwork> and poised other side of it is desltop box's case and various stuff is now piled on cases including delicate rj40
388 2011-02-27 06:31:25 <knotwork> ethernet plugs that lost the little clip that keeps them secure etc
389 2011-02-27 06:31:45 <knotwork> so once I start moving stuff I can expect my connection will go bad and on like that
390 2011-02-27 06:31:48 <lfm> eeewww, sounds like a rats nest
391 2011-02-27 06:31:54 <knotwork> so yeah I will get to it but now is not the time
392 2011-02-27 06:32:10 <knotwork> it works fine weeks at a stretch if it doesnt cpu mine
393 2011-02-27 06:32:13 <lfm> check that there are no rats nesting in it too
394 2011-02-27 06:32:25 <knotwork> no rats here only mice
395 2011-02-27 06:32:35 <lfm> hehe ok
396 2011-02-27 06:33:16 <knotwork> I mean really, actual living organic ones, I see them from time to time but never yet a living rat
397 2011-02-27 06:33:31 <knotwork> (dead one appeared in toilet bowl somehow once upon a time years ago tho)
398 2011-02-27 06:34:16 <knotwork> but noetheless as igloos go its not such a bad place :)
399 2011-02-27 06:41:03 <lfm> sometime mice get into the habit of knawing on the insulation for wires, good luck
400 2011-02-27 06:42:42 <Diablo-D3> lfm: dude, who doesnt
401 2011-02-27 06:42:46 <Diablo-D3> om nom nom plastic
402 2011-02-27 06:42:52 <Diablo-D3> the red ones taste especially good
403 2011-02-27 06:43:14 <ArtForz> in my experience rats are WAY worse for that
404 2011-02-27 06:45:04 <ArtForz> errr... who doesn't?
405 2011-02-27 06:46:00 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, a lot of people have white/grey/whatever
406 2011-02-27 06:46:24 <Diablo-D3> I have three things plugged into my switch, but I like being able to look at it and know whats what
407 2011-02-27 06:46:31 <ArtForz> I mainly have pink, neon green and neon yellow
408 2011-02-27 06:47:07 <Diablo-D3> grey -> dsl->router, red -> switch->router, green -> laptop->switch, blue -> workstation->switch
409 2011-02-27 06:47:10 <ArtForz> those colors have a WAY lower tendency to walk away
410 2011-02-27 06:48:59 <Diablo-D3> dude, if my cables walk away then theres something wrong
411 2011-02-27 06:50:11 <lfm> the blue covered wires repel mice and rats
412 2011-02-27 06:50:29 <Diablo-D3> I have cats.
413 2011-02-27 06:50:35 <Diablo-D3> I think I have the mouse problem covered
414 2011-02-27 06:50:51 <ArtForz> well, not if they're sitting in your office/storage room at work
415 2011-02-27 06:51:10 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: locked cabinets.
416 2011-02-27 06:51:32 <ArtForz> pff
417 2011-02-27 06:51:43 <ArtForz> easier to order cables in godawful colors
418 2011-02-27 06:52:49 <Diablo-D3> either that, or use the PoE variant that does 10k volts.
419 2011-02-27 06:53:05 <ArtForz> not to mention they're cheaper *and* you can spin it as a workplace safety measure
420 2011-02-27 06:56:36 <Diablo-D3> "if its hot pink, dont touch it" "what if its neon green?" "dont touch it." "yellow?" "dont touch it." "what colors CAN we touch?" "none of them."
421 2011-02-27 06:57:02 <ArtForz> lol
422 2011-02-27 06:57:05 <ArtForz> yep
423 2011-02-27 06:58:58 <cosurgi> ArtForz: someone very powerful has just joined the network, is that you?
424 2011-02-27 06:59:11 <cosurgi> he joined about 15 hours ago
425 2011-02-27 06:59:28 <Diablo-D3> art joined about 9 months ago.
426 2011-02-27 06:59:39 <Diablo-D3> dohohohoho
427 2011-02-27 07:00:09 <ArtForz> nope, not me
428 2011-02-27 07:03:21 <cosurgi> the same happened when this difficulty started, maybe he decided to hold on a while and increase next difficulty only a little, this would mean that next difficulty will skyrocket
429 2011-02-27 07:03:34 <ArtForz> I kinda doubt it
430 2011-02-27 07:03:41 <cosurgi> I mean next-next
431 2011-02-27 07:03:49 <cosurgi> ok, we will see :)
432 2011-02-27 07:03:50 <ArtForz> it's economically stupid
433 2011-02-27 07:04:19 <ArtForz> throwing more hashpower at it *now* is always more profitable than waiting for the next difficulty
434 2011-02-27 07:05:32 <phantomcircuit> unless you can manipulate the difficulty downwards
435 2011-02-27 07:06:07 <cosurgi> hmm true , he could disconnect later wait and reconnect
436 2011-02-27 07:06:12 <ArtForz> which you generally can't unless you're well >30% of total network
437 2011-02-27 07:06:22 <cosurgi> if electricity is expensive for him it could make sense
438 2011-02-27 07:06:25 <ArtForz> otherwise you're just handing block to other miners
439 2011-02-27 07:06:29 <cosurgi> maybe he is
440 2011-02-27 07:06:35 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, which you can do if you're particularly evil
441 2011-02-27 07:06:42 <cosurgi> look at what happened within 15h
442 2011-02-27 07:07:31 <ArtForz> note that 15h is way too short to come to any conclusion
443 2011-02-27 07:07:56 <phantomcircuit> 15h?
444 2011-02-27 07:08:53 <lfm> Average interval last 144 blocks: 4.32 min
445 2011-02-27 07:09:47 <ArtForz> and block 109871-110015 we had average 307 s/block
446 2011-02-27 07:10:06 <ArtForz> yet in the 144 block periods before/after that it was > 420s/block ...
447 2011-02-27 07:14:38 <ArtForz> my current estimate puts network at ~480Ghps = about 326s/block
448 2011-02-27 07:18:53 <ArtForz> = variance over 144-block periods is still way too big to say anything
449 2011-02-27 07:19:11 <ArtForz> might be someone adding 100ghps, might be just a lucky run
450 2011-02-27 07:45:05 <molecular> ;;bc,stats
451 2011-02-27 07:45:08 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110864 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 15 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 hour, 26 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 55406.64843387
452 2011-02-27 07:54:33 <molecular> my initial calculations in mid-january projected the difficulty to reach 55000 on April 4th.
453 2011-02-27 07:54:42 <molecular> damn was I wrong
454 2011-02-27 07:55:06 <lfm> its still goin up?
455 2011-02-27 07:55:12 <molecular> 50% this time ;)
456 2011-02-27 07:55:37 <molecular> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed.png <- it's crazy
457 2011-02-27 07:56:52 <molecular> I also projected the exchange rate to be at 0.35 USD/BTC at that point.
458 2011-02-27 07:56:55 <molecular> damn was I wrong
459 2011-02-27 07:57:37 <lfm> ya you said that
460 2011-02-27 07:58:11 <molecular> yes, but targeting a different assertion
461 2011-02-27 08:05:03 <Ratchet> hi. is it possible to run more than one bitcoind instance behind a nat/firewall? maybe if i don't forward 8333 to any of the machines?
462 2011-02-27 08:05:43 <theymos> The non-forwarded one will work without any extra work.
463 2011-02-27 08:06:30 <Ratchet> oh, ok. thanks
464 2011-02-27 08:07:24 <lfm> Ratchet: you can still forward to one
465 2011-02-27 08:08:28 <Ratchet> ok :-)
466 2011-02-27 08:32:05 <wumpus> yeah you can forward 8333 to one of the machines, forwarding any other port for bitcoin has no use as it assumes a fixed port number (at least, last time I checked)
467 2011-02-27 09:03:59 <molecular> ;;bc,diff
468 2011-02-27 09:04:00 <gribble> 55590.23763914
469 2011-02-27 09:24:49 <mmagic> ;;bc,stats
470 2011-02-27 09:24:51 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110882 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 2013 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 18 hours, 4 minutes, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 222358.07250747
471 2011-02-27 09:28:31 <mmagic> ;;calc [bc,blocks]+1
472 2011-02-27 09:28:32 <gribble> 110,882 + 1 = 110,883
473 2011-02-27 09:28:46 <mmagic> ;;calc [bc,blocks]%2018
474 2011-02-27 09:28:47 <gribble> ...
475 2011-02-27 09:28:55 <mmagic> ;;calc [bc,blocks] % 2018
476 2011-02-27 09:28:57 <gribble> 110,882 mod 2,018 = 1,910
477 2011-02-27 09:29:23 <phantomcircuit> ;;calc [bc,blocks] % [bc,blocks]
478 2011-02-27 09:29:24 <gribble> 110,882 mod 110,882 = 0
479 2011-02-27 09:29:26 <phantomcircuit> NEAT
480 2011-02-27 09:29:32 <mmagic> even for initial estimate, that estimate is pretty high and scary
481 2011-02-27 09:30:13 <phantomcircuit> the total speed of the miners is growing damned fast
482 2011-02-27 09:32:25 <mmagic> Bid
483 2011-02-27 09:33:45 <theymos> Looking at blocks 110736-110880 and using the average target of these blocks, I calculated 722 ghash/s.
484 2011-02-27 09:34:01 <mmagic> profit shrinks to the point where new mining equipment will be out of the reach of hobbiests.
485 2011-02-27 09:34:43 <ArtForzZz> theymos: huh?
486 2011-02-27 09:34:53 <ArtForzZz> over the exact same block range I get... 607961
487 2011-02-27 09:34:57 <ArtForzZz> Mhps, that is
488 2011-02-27 09:35:29 <theymos> ArtForzZz: That's the result on http://blockexplorer.com/q/nethash . I just rewrote my algorithm to use average targets, so it's very possible that it's wrong.
489 2011-02-27 09:36:27 <theymos> Do you also get an average target of 61220259...?
490 2011-02-27 09:38:20 <mmagic> operating on the premise that a rapid few days of mining growth is more likely to indicate a smaller number of miners with high powered equipment than a gradual growth of mining activity over a longer time period, that suggests the likelihood of someone able to tamper is much higher than it was.
491 2011-02-27 09:42:15 <mmagic> i therefore conclude that my confidence in the strength of the currency is less than it was before the last difficulty change.
492 2011-02-27 09:43:01 <mmagic> ;;bc,stats
493 2011-02-27 09:43:03 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110885 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 2010 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 0 hours, 5 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 84546.97454674
494 2011-02-27 09:43:18 <mmagic> lol that's pretty awesome, go gribster
495 2011-02-27 09:43:23 <ArtForzZz> well, as long as hashrate keeps growing, thats actually a good sign
496 2011-02-27 09:43:42 <hazek> sup
497 2011-02-27 09:43:44 <ArtForzZz> if it suddenly drops to 1/3 or so, worry
498 2011-02-27 09:44:32 <hazek> I just discovered this currency
499 2011-02-27 09:44:43 <hazek> and I have a question if someone wouldn't mind help me out with
500 2011-02-27 09:45:30 <BlueMatt> why do people always ask if they can ask a question, instead of just asking it?
501 2011-02-27 09:45:44 <hazek> i guess they want to be polite? :)
502 2011-02-27 09:46:03 <f3n> I try to put my preface to the question in the same line as the question
503 2011-02-27 09:46:14 <f3n> therefore its not a delayed but its still polite
504 2011-02-27 09:46:24 <hazek> right so my question is how do you ensure only 21m of coints will get "minted"
505 2011-02-27 09:46:31 <ArtForzZz> standard topic of #whatever-support "don't ask to ask, just ask"
506 2011-02-27 09:46:34 <hazek> coins*
507 2011-02-27 09:46:54 <mmagic> it's a potentially good sign, i think, but a geometric growth within a shorter period will be less likely to be accounted for by multiple miners coincidentally arriving into mining simultaneously, it seems to me. but i agree that a bunch of people quitting together would suck ass worse.
508 2011-02-27 09:47:10 <ArtForzZz> actually them *quitting* wouldnt be that bad
509 2011-02-27 09:47:10 <BlueMatt> if someone tries to mint coins outside of the rules defined by the client, the rest of the clients will just ignore it
510 2011-02-27 09:47:29 <mmagic> define what you mean by "drops to 1/3"
511 2011-02-27 09:47:54 <ArtForzZz> as in, about 400ghps suddenly vanishing
512 2011-02-27 09:47:55 <hazek> BlueMatt so the client can't possibly be changed to allow more then 21m of coins?
513 2011-02-27 09:48:26 <hazek> and how is that achieved
514 2011-02-27 09:48:38 <BlueMatt> hazek: yes anyone could change their client to mine them billions of coins, but everyone else would just ignore their crap
515 2011-02-27 09:49:16 <ArtForzZz> = one large (or a cartel of smaller) miners are suddenly doing ... something else with their hashpower
516 2011-02-27 09:49:34 <hazek> so as long as most of the clients limit the "minting" to 21m it can't be breached
517 2011-02-27 09:49:47 <BlueMatt> pretty much
518 2011-02-27 09:49:57 <hazek> hypotetical: someone manages to simultaniously change the majority yof clients
519 2011-02-27 09:49:59 <hazek> what then?
520 2011-02-27 09:50:01 <ArtForzZz> = something else is more profitable than bitcoin mining = double-spend or cratel mining attacks become a whole lot easier
521 2011-02-27 09:50:17 <BlueMatt> then the majority will see more coins, but the rest of the normal clients wont
522 2011-02-27 09:50:28 <theymos> hazek: What if the majority of people start using leaves as currency? You just ignore them and use real currency.
523 2011-02-27 09:50:52 <ZenMondo> theymos: no we burn down forrests to fight inflation.
524 2011-02-27 09:51:00 <hazek> ok so there's a clear way of knowing which coins are legit?
525 2011-02-27 09:51:10 <hazek> btw i'm just asking questions
526 2011-02-27 09:51:16 <BlueMatt> ZenMondo: you sound very american...
527 2011-02-27 09:51:34 <BlueMatt> hazek: the ones which are accepted by the regular client are
528 2011-02-27 09:51:40 <ZenMondo> Its a joke from HGTTG where they did use leaves as currency
529 2011-02-27 09:51:49 <hazek> right i understand that
530 2011-02-27 09:52:10 <hazek> but how do you know which client is the regular client(might be a dumb question :P)
531 2011-02-27 09:52:18 <ZenMondo> coins are confirmed with a proof of work hazek.
532 2011-02-27 09:52:20 <BlueMatt> ZenMondo: ah, never read it, but the movie was good
533 2011-02-27 09:52:38 <BlueMatt> hazek: the one from bitcoin.org, and right now its the ONLY client
534 2011-02-27 09:52:45 <mmagic> hazek: you allow the definition of "regular client" to be dictated by "the client which most of the network runs"
535 2011-02-27 09:53:19 <hazek> ok i understand that but when I'm thinking this currency over I have a few hypoteticals that I'm wondering about
536 2011-02-27 09:53:40 <hazek> one is that someone manages to compromise the official client from bitcoin.org
537 2011-02-27 09:53:53 <hazek> why isn't that possible?
538 2011-02-27 09:54:08 <theymos> It is. Not enough people will upgrade fast enough, though.
539 2011-02-27 09:54:09 <lfm> its open source, someone will notice
540 2011-02-27 09:54:14 <mmagic> hazek: the network won't all switch simultaneously, and someone is likely to notice very quickly.
541 2011-02-27 09:54:24 <BlueMatt> it is, but then you have to wait for the person you want to do business with to upgrade their client
542 2011-02-27 09:54:25 <hazek> ah ok
543 2011-02-27 09:54:33 <hazek> ahhhh
544 2011-02-27 09:54:41 <mmagic> hazek: state your hypotheticals faster.
545 2011-02-27 09:54:47 <hazek> so both clients need to be the same "version"?
546 2011-02-27 09:55:04 <lfm> nope
547 2011-02-27 09:55:06 <mmagic> hazek: no, just agree to the same rules of engagement
548 2011-02-27 09:55:13 <hazek> ah ok
549 2011-02-27 09:55:50 <devon_hillard> I don't understand why the newer 6xxx series of ati cards are worse (at least) for integer computations than the older 5xxx series
550 2011-02-27 09:55:52 <lfm> version 0.3.0 is still being used and accepted
551 2011-02-27 09:55:53 <hazek> so if I understand this correctly someone could compromise this currency only if they gained access to all the nodes in existance that run the current client?
552 2011-02-27 09:56:19 <hazek> which is pretty much impossible
553 2011-02-27 09:56:27 <devon_hillard> also, the hd 5970 is going to stop being produced
554 2011-02-27 09:56:30 <hazek> or only improbable?
555 2011-02-27 09:56:34 <lfm> hazek just 51% is enuf
556 2011-02-27 09:56:53 <Diablo-D3> going?>
557 2011-02-27 09:56:54 <lfm> devon_hillard: has been stopped production
558 2011-02-27 09:56:54 <mmagic> devon_hillard: the answer is that computing is not their prime target audience.
559 2011-02-27 09:56:57 <BlueMatt> there is no magic number, you have to compromise the client of the person you want to trade with
560 2011-02-27 09:57:02 <Diablo-D3> it stopped production late last year
561 2011-02-27 09:57:13 <ZenMondo> thats one of the strengths its distributed, decentralized, peer to peer and every node checks the work of every other node. Bad data is just discarded.
562 2011-02-27 09:57:17 <theymos> >50% is enough for certain bad attacks, though such an attack can't create coins out of thin air.
563 2011-02-27 09:57:22 <mmagic> hazek: it's not impossible. if an exploit is found, you could compromise the entire network simultaneously.
564 2011-02-27 09:57:23 <Diablo-D3> infact, the last gen of 5970s were made with chips that may have not been 5970-rated 5870s
565 2011-02-27 09:57:31 <hazek> <ZenMondo> right right
566 2011-02-27 09:57:32 <devon_hillard> mmagic, lfm: so what, they accidentally released a supercharged GPGPU that was competing too well with their 'enterprise' lines?
567 2011-02-27 09:57:37 <BlueMatt> >50% of network hashing power is enough for certain attacks, not upgrading 51% of clients
568 2011-02-27 09:57:53 <lfm> hazek whats the difference between imposible and highly improbable?
569 2011-02-27 09:58:16 <molecular> ;;bc,calc 666666
570 2011-02-27 09:58:16 <theymos> "Upgrading" clients doesn't get you anything. Hashing power is all that really matters.
571 2011-02-27 09:58:17 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 666666 Khps, given current difficulty of 55590.23763914 , is 4 days, 3 hours, 28 minutes, and 57 seconds
572 2011-02-27 09:58:19 <hazek> lfm: in the first case it can't happen and in the second case it will happen eventually
573 2011-02-27 09:58:40 <devon_hillard> any other amd gpgpu on the horizon? like 6990
574 2011-02-27 09:58:48 <mmagic> devon_hillard: no, they found a way to make 3d graphics faster and it didn't imply that X computing type also needed to be faster.
575 2011-02-27 09:59:06 <devon_hillard> stream processors are largely renamed shaders, right?
576 2011-02-27 09:59:15 <lfm> devon_hillard: performance isnt their main concern, profit is
577 2011-02-27 09:59:57 <BlueMatt> theymos: if you "upgraded" the client of the person you wanted to trade with you could "give" them btc and get free stuff
578 2011-02-27 10:00:05 <mmagic> devon_hillard: it's called a "video card" and not a "niche parallel computing workhorse" :)
579 2011-02-27 10:00:22 <devon_hillard> it has other applications beyond bitcoin
580 2011-02-27 10:00:27 <devon_hillard> like password cracking :)
581 2011-02-27 10:00:35 <hazek> one more question please: is it possible to trade bitcoins in any other way that doesn't involve the client?
582 2011-02-27 10:00:37 <lfm> devon_hillard: or bitcoin
583 2011-02-27 10:00:51 <mmagic> devon_hillard: that is not the purpose of the card. that is a side-benefit which is (presumably) a value-add
584 2011-02-27 10:00:51 <theymos> BlueMatt: I suppose so. If you can run code on their computer, you could also just steal their bitcoins.
585 2011-02-27 10:01:02 <BlueMatt> theymos: true...
586 2011-02-27 10:01:04 <devon_hillard> there is no reason to get a high end card and use it for gaming
587 2011-02-27 10:01:14 <lfm> hazek see mygox for ways to trade bitcoins without needing a client
588 2011-02-27 10:01:23 <lfm> mygox -> mtgox
589 2011-02-27 10:01:38 <devon_hillard> gaming is made around lowest common denominators, usually
590 2011-02-27 10:01:56 <devon_hillard> well, high ends are useful at video encoding
591 2011-02-27 10:02:03 <lfm> devon_hillard: computer gaming is also about leading edge
592 2011-02-27 10:02:04 <mmagic> hazek: yes, you can technically shift around keypairs which give the other person authority to spend associated coins, but that requires that the receiver trust the sender isn't going to do it with more than one person simultaneously.
593 2011-02-27 10:02:33 <devon_hillard> lfm: games are made to look great with midrange cards
594 2011-02-27 10:02:53 <devon_hillard> and console releases work fine with even the lowends
595 2011-02-27 10:02:57 <lfm> devon_hillard: and better with top shelf cards
596 2011-02-27 10:03:03 <devon_hillard> not much better
597 2011-02-27 10:03:17 <ArtForzZz> a LOT better
598 2011-02-27 10:03:20 <lfm> doesnt have to be much better so long as its better
599 2011-02-27 10:03:22 <hazek> mmagic say it the sender is croocked and does it with more then one person simultaniously, only one of those recivers will be able to actually spend the coins right?
600 2011-02-27 10:03:30 <mmagic> hazek: there are plenty of ways of trading bitcoins that don't require actual transactions on the network, or the client, or being online, but they all require things like trust, or.. whatever.
601 2011-02-27 10:03:35 <devon_hillard> you go from 80fps to 120 fps, big deal :)
602 2011-02-27 10:03:37 <mmagic> hazek: it's a race to see who spends it first.
603 2011-02-27 10:03:42 <hazek> right
604 2011-02-27 10:03:47 <ArtForzZz> you go from 20 to 30, it IS a big deal
605 2011-02-27 10:04:07 <lfm> hazek only one will be able to confirm receiving the coins
606 2011-02-27 10:04:08 <devon_hillard> any game that works at 20fps on a midrange is just going to bomb
607 2011-02-27 10:04:12 <hazek> let me just say that this is so unbelievably cool
608 2011-02-27 10:04:43 <hazek> especially since it's anonymous and can't be traced
609 2011-02-27 10:04:45 <ArtForzZz> like, pretty much any modern game, at 5760x1080 ?
610 2011-02-27 10:04:46 <lfm> devon_hillard: and with a top card you can play it on 3 screens
611 2011-02-27 10:04:47 <hazek> by the government
612 2011-02-27 10:04:58 <mmagic> hazek: that is NOT true.
613 2011-02-27 10:05:03 <hazek> no?
614 2011-02-27 10:05:24 <lfm> traceing may be possible under some circumstances
615 2011-02-27 10:05:28 <mmagic> hazek: steve gibson is spreading lies when he says the currency is completely anonymous
616 2011-02-27 10:05:32 <devon_hillard> lfm: not sure if you're limited by vram or processing powers at higher resolutions (probably need both)
617 2011-02-27 10:05:41 <mmagic> hazek: perhaps "lies" is too strong a word.
618 2011-02-27 10:05:47 <hazek> ahhhhhh
619 2011-02-27 10:06:00 <lfm> devon_hillard: mainly processing and bandwidth
620 2011-02-27 10:06:07 <hazek> that kind of diminishes it's potential i think
621 2011-02-27 10:06:10 <theymos> All the transactions are publicly available. See http://blockexplorer.com/
622 2011-02-27 10:06:11 <ArtForzZz> and yes, crappy console ports will work fine at crappy console detail levels, on midrange GPUs roughly equivalent to what's found in ... crappy consoles ;)
623 2011-02-27 10:06:28 <BlueMatt> its technically anonymous in the fact that all the other party sees is you public key, but if they can match you to a public key, they can probably get quite a bit of your financial history
624 2011-02-27 10:06:39 <hazek> mmagic would you want to explain to me to what extent is it possible to trace the transations?
625 2011-02-27 10:07:12 <lfm> the main weakness in the annonymity is when you need to spend em on real things which can be traced
626 2011-02-27 10:07:15 <hazek> BlueMatt yeah but that can't be easy to do right?
627 2011-02-27 10:07:43 <theymos> See https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Anonymity
628 2011-02-27 10:07:45 <hazek> lfm what if you change your public key for every purchase?
629 2011-02-27 10:07:50 <hazek> ty
630 2011-02-27 10:08:20 <lfm> hazek: each purchase is another chance for the "attacker" to trace you
631 2011-02-27 10:08:35 <hazek> even if you change your public key?
632 2011-02-27 10:08:51 <mmagic> hazek: simple correlation. if the coins stay within the network and there is no information linking a coin with a human, then it is anonymous. in practice, actual transactions usually involve real-life correlatable events. one search warrant and the dilvulgence of a wallet.dat and that person is now correlated with all the transactions his keys were involved in.
633 2011-02-27 10:08:57 <lfm> make no difference if hey are tracing the real goods and not the bitcoins
634 2011-02-27 10:09:24 <theymos> Changing your keys for every purchase helps, but since the history of coins are traceable, you still might be found.
635 2011-02-27 10:09:30 <mmagic> hazek: it's not usually hard to find associated people with more search warrants. :)
636 2011-02-27 10:09:40 <hazek> argh
637 2011-02-27 10:10:07 <devon_hillard> it's much harder than going through banks
638 2011-02-27 10:10:18 <mmagic> hazek: it would be very rare to find a transaction which involved only a movement of bitcoins.
639 2011-02-27 10:10:56 <hazek> money laundering is one I can think of? :)
640 2011-02-27 10:10:57 <lfm> ya, banks you just make a phone call and they send you the info (if you're a cop with a warrent)
641 2011-02-27 10:11:02 <mmagic> "transaction" in that sense defined not as a bitcoin transaction, but an exchange of value between humans.
642 2011-02-27 10:11:09 <hazek> ahh right
643 2011-02-27 10:11:40 <devon_hillard> what's the bitcoin wiki link with all the GPUs listed?
644 2011-02-27 10:11:58 <lfm> ;;bc,wiki
645 2011-02-27 10:11:59 <gribble> https://bitcoin.it/ | Feb 21, 2011 ... Sourced from Wikipedia. Bitcoin is a digital currency created in 2009 by Satoshi Nakamoto. It is also the name of the open source software ...
646 2011-02-27 10:14:00 <devon_hillard> found it: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison
647 2011-02-27 10:14:09 <hazek> The reason why I asked this question in regards of anonymity is because I had this thought of Bitcoins maybe being a way how people could "stick it to the man" en mass if you know what I mean
648 2011-02-27 10:14:21 <mmagic> hazek: you would not only have to create a new keypair, but destroy the old one ever having existed on your machine after spending all coins belonging to that used keypair.
649 2011-02-27 10:14:50 <mmagic> hazek: just because you hide a bunch of soup cans of cash in the woodpile doesn't mean "the man" can't come and root around in your woodpile.
650 2011-02-27 10:15:02 <hazek> right
651 2011-02-27 10:15:03 <hazek> :)
652 2011-02-27 10:15:03 <theymos> Future versions of Bitcoin could be made to be anonymous. Really the only feature you need is the ability to choose which coins to send.
653 2011-02-27 10:15:06 <lfm> hazek sure, thats what a lot of bitcoin users think. it might even have some utility along that line but you would still have to know what you're doing
654 2011-02-27 10:15:39 <hazek> lfm: that goes without saying, hence all these questions ;)
655 2011-02-27 10:16:19 <mmagic> it adds a level of indirection in funds, but large-scale laundering is not possible with bitcoin until the exchangeable value gets to the point where it can absorb the influx and outflux amongst the noise of normal bitcoin transactions..
656 2011-02-27 10:17:03 <hazek> interesting
657 2011-02-27 10:17:16 <mmagic> at the moment, bitcoin users enjoy a form of security through obscurity..
658 2011-02-27 10:18:41 <hazek> final question: once all coins are minted and these super nodes I hear about won't have a reason to spend all the CPU power on running a node, how do you ensure the integrity of the system?
659 2011-02-27 10:18:51 <theymos> Laundering is possible if you deposit to MtGox/MyBitcoin and withdraw slowly. Then whoever is investigating you will have to go through MtGox. And you can chain these services, like Tor relays.
660 2011-02-27 10:18:52 <hazek> not system, rather network of nodes
661 2011-02-27 10:19:08 <mmagic> hazek: "Satoshi" envisioned a transition to pure transaction fees.
662 2011-02-27 10:19:30 <hazek> ok sure, but those fees be enough for the strongest cpus?
663 2011-02-27 10:19:36 <hazek> would those*
664 2011-02-27 10:19:40 <theymos> The market will adjust the fees appropriately.
665 2011-02-27 10:20:04 <dissipate> hazek, the fees will adjust based on a supply and demand basis
666 2011-02-27 10:20:43 <hazek> so what you're saying is that these users with the strongest CPUs will allways have an incetive to run a node
667 2011-02-27 10:20:53 <dissipate> hazek, the more transactions the higher the demand, the more incentive to find blocks
668 2011-02-27 10:20:59 <hazek> and whenever it's dimished the market will be willing to pay more so they do?
669 2011-02-27 10:21:04 <theymos> The most efficient nodes will always be profitable.
670 2011-02-27 10:21:32 <dissipate> theymos, not true actually.
671 2011-02-27 10:21:45 <mmagic> theymos: by the time that mining is no longer an incentive, the time will be.. i think quite a number of decades away and probably bitcoin will look quite a bit different than it currently does. i fully expect there to be a cut-over transition to a new form of hashing, for example, long before mining for actual coins ceases.
672 2011-02-27 10:21:58 <ArtForzZz> well, the most efficient miner might very well be a botnet...
673 2011-02-27 10:22:26 <mmagic> theymos: sorry, addressed wrongly..
674 2011-02-27 10:22:26 <theymos> I predict that super-efficient custom hardware will beat all pools and botnets.
675 2011-02-27 10:22:28 <dissipate> hazek, not always. it could be the case that there would not be enough transactions to cover the costs of setup, equipment and electricity. just like in any business, there may not be enough demand to cover costs.
676 2011-02-27 10:23:14 <hazek> @theymos that's exactly what I fear
677 2011-02-27 10:23:29 <hazek> once that happens isn't an attack very possible?
678 2011-02-27 10:23:46 <theymos> No. Having a small number of miners is good, since they can adapt to attacks very quickly.
679 2011-02-27 10:23:48 <dissipate> theymos, could be. i have posited a scenario where millions of people just let their 'always on' systems to just 'generate coins' in the default client, causing mining to be unprofitable for anyone.
680 2011-02-27 10:23:56 <mmagic> hazek: actual asic which can truly beat GPU and Art requires a huge outlay of capital and is currently, as I understand it, not a viable option yet.
681 2011-02-27 10:24:13 <lfm> dissipate: the most efficient miners mayt have NO expenses so they will always be profitable
682 2011-02-27 10:24:34 <mmagic> dissipate: mining some coins would be like an auto-lottery LOL
683 2011-02-27 10:24:57 <dissipate> lfm, not sure how that is possible. and if millions are searching, the payoff will still be small even if their costs are 0.
684 2011-02-27 10:25:26 <lfm> dissipate: free power cuz their parents pay it perhaps
685 2011-02-27 10:25:46 <nextgens> or because they use a botnet
686 2011-02-27 10:26:06 <dissipate> lfm, what if millions who have 'always on' machines just click 'generate coins'?
687 2011-02-27 10:26:18 <ArtForzZz> I doubt large-scale at-loss mining would ever happen voluntarily
688 2011-02-27 10:26:19 <lfm> dissipate: thats fine
689 2011-02-27 10:26:38 <theymos> dissipate: A network of volunteers would be the worst possible case, IMO. Pool maintainers don't have all that much to lose by abusing their position, and the network would certainly be smaller than it would be under for-profit mining.
690 2011-02-27 10:26:47 <dissipate> ArtForzZz, there is a lot of computing power being thrown at SETI. that's 'at loss' in my book.
691 2011-02-27 10:26:49 <ArtForzZz> bitcoin simply doesn't have the feel-good charity appeal of F@H or other distributed projects
692 2011-02-27 10:26:55 <lfm> ArtForzZz: consider lotteries, they are losing propositions
693 2011-02-27 10:27:48 <ArtForzZz> yep
694 2011-02-27 10:27:48 <lfm> some people just want to beleive their "luck" is gonna change
695 2011-02-27 10:27:58 <ArtForzZz> but lotteries are also designed to be exciting
696 2011-02-27 10:28:13 <ArtForzZz> bitcoin mining is about as exciting as playing progress quest
697 2011-02-27 10:28:28 <dissipate> ArtForzZz, i don't know if it will happen. it probably won't. but it is a possible outcome.
698 2011-02-27 10:28:47 <lfm> people in this channel hear about other's who are "lucky" all the time. they think I could be lucky too
699 2011-02-27 10:28:54 <ArtForzZz> especially with pools
700 2011-02-27 10:29:51 <dissipate> ArtForzZz, i keep bitcoin open and let nodes connect. that's 'at loss'. :D
701 2011-02-27 10:29:53 <lfm> the point is not everyone is logical about this
702 2011-02-27 10:30:10 <ArtForzZz> I never said people act rationally
703 2011-02-27 10:31:06 <ArtForzZz> thing is, imo to have people behave irrationally in large numbers, you need to appeal to emotions
704 2011-02-27 10:31:13 <sethsethseth> bitcoin mining is super exciting and addicting for me.  even though i make $200/hr I find it so fun to look at my wallet and see another few BTC in there from the pool
705 2011-02-27 10:31:27 <Blitzboom> fuck you :D
706 2011-02-27 10:31:48 <Blitzboom> what hardware have you got?
707 2011-02-27 10:32:07 <dissipate> sethsethseth, $200 an hour? what are you? a medical doctor? :O
708 2011-02-27 10:32:07 <sethsethseth> i just shoved a couple of 5970's in my rig
709 2011-02-27 10:32:11 <lfm> Blitzboom: his $200/hr isnt from mining
710 2011-02-27 10:32:13 <ArtForzZz> he probably got a real job ....
711 2011-02-27 10:32:16 <sethsethseth> right
712 2011-02-27 10:32:20 <Blitzboom> oh. okay
713 2011-02-27 10:32:32 <ArtForzZz> I made similar figures as a consultant
714 2011-02-27 10:32:56 <dissipate> ArtForzZz, 40 hours a week?
715 2011-02-27 10:33:09 <ArtForzZz> average? nope.
716 2011-02-27 10:33:10 <dissipate> that's over a grand a day
717 2011-02-27 10:33:14 <Blitzboom> man, waiting for a block (so transaction is confirmed) is annoying
718 2011-02-27 10:33:37 <lfm> Blitzboom: it builds the excitement?
719 2011-02-27 10:33:44 <Blitzboom> still 1000 times better than banks though
720 2011-02-27 10:33:46 <bxc_> Blitzboom: doesn't mean its definitely confirmed though
721 2011-02-27 10:33:57 <bxc_> the system might later on converge on a different chain
722 2011-02-27 10:34:04 <Blitzboom> yeah, ok
723 2011-02-27 10:34:07 <Blitzboom> but practically
724 2011-02-27 10:34:36 <lfm> generally once you get one confirmation you can be pretty sure
725 2011-02-27 10:34:54 <Blitzboom> ah, there it is :)
726 2011-02-27 10:35:35 <lfm> I think there was only the one time so far that bitcoin has backed out more than 1 or 2 blocks
727 2011-02-27 10:35:58 <sethsethseth> if anyone knows a good game that would take advantage of my 5970's and 4800x2560 resolution, im bored/drunk right now
728 2011-02-27 10:36:05 <dissipate> Blitzboom, mybitcoin is good for small transactions, in my opinion.
729 2011-02-27 10:36:20 <lfm> sethsethseth: go to a game store
730 2011-02-27 10:36:21 <Blitzboom> havent tried it yet
731 2011-02-27 10:36:25 <Blitzboom> and probably wont
732 2011-02-27 10:36:28 <mmagic> ;;bc,stats
733 2011-02-27 10:36:30 <Blitzboom> but maybe
734 2011-02-27 10:36:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110892 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 2003 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 0 hours, 50 minutes, and 28 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 75976.96332855
735 2011-02-27 10:37:36 <Blitzboom> one thing i like about being in a pool is that i dont have to have the client open
736 2011-02-27 10:37:48 <Blitzboom> so i can just switch to another wallet if i like
737 2011-02-27 10:37:54 <andrewh> Blitzboom: but why would you ever close it?
738 2011-02-27 10:38:12 <andrewh> ...why do you need more than one wallet?
739 2011-02-27 10:38:20 <Blitzboom> savings wallet
740 2011-02-27 10:38:30 <Blitzboom> just for paranoia
741 2011-02-27 10:38:34 <andrewh> heh
742 2011-02-27 10:38:40 <lfm> so you dont need it
743 2011-02-27 10:38:57 <mmagic> andrewh: he's one of the people who's actually had his wallet stolen by douchebag trojan'ers.
744 2011-02-27 10:39:07 <dissipate> Blitzboom, i use full disk encryption so i'm not worried about having a lot of coins in my live wallet.
745 2011-02-27 10:39:08 <sipa> we may have crossed the 500GH/s mark...
746 2011-02-27 10:39:32 <Blitzboom> wow.
747 2011-02-27 10:39:36 <ArtForzZz> sipa: yup, at least we're close to it
748 2011-02-27 10:39:50 <andrewh> ok, gonna try to sleep again. wish me luck
749 2011-02-27 10:39:51 <Blitzboom> ah, http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin.png updated
750 2011-02-27 10:39:58 <Blitzboom> good night
751 2011-02-27 10:40:09 <sipa> yeah, had to adjust the y-axis
752 2011-02-27 10:40:32 <andrewh> sipa: remove the index page on your webserver :P
753 2011-02-27 10:40:41 <andrewh> the lighttpd placeholder
754 2011-02-27 10:40:41 <lfm> too much smoothing
755 2011-02-27 10:40:45 <sipa> andrewh: right, too lazy :)
756 2011-02-27 10:40:46 <Blitzboom> whats 1000 ghash? a terahash?
757 2011-02-27 10:40:52 <ArtForzZz> yup
758 2011-02-27 10:41:18 <andrewh> s/hash/hashes/
759 2011-02-27 10:41:46 <ArtForzZz> for comparison, F@H would be somewhere around 2Thps
760 2011-02-27 10:42:04 <andrewh> altogether?
761 2011-02-27 10:42:05 <andrewh> damn
762 2011-02-27 10:42:11 <ArtForzZz> yup
763 2011-02-27 10:42:23 <andrewh> bitcoin's 1/4th as popular as folding@home
764 2011-02-27 10:42:24 <andrewh> :p
765 2011-02-27 10:42:30 <Blitzboom> not bad at all!
766 2011-02-27 10:42:31 <ArtForzZz> CPUs are about as fast at integer as at single precision floating point, same for GPUs
767 2011-02-27 10:42:35 <lfm> so another 3 months we could be there
768 2011-02-27 10:43:16 <ArtForzZz> so you actually can compare intops and flops pretty much 1:1
769 2011-02-27 10:43:47 <ArtForzZz> ati gpus are a bit of an exception, as they have operations *very* useful to speeding up sha256
770 2011-02-27 10:44:42 <andrewh> i am typing this with my tounge
771 2011-02-27 10:45:00 <andrewh> gosh that took a long time
772 2011-02-27 10:45:03 <lfm> andrewh: why? and btw eeewww
773 2011-02-27 10:45:12 <andrewh> for lols
774 2011-02-27 10:45:16 <andrewh> i can do it with my nose too
775 2011-02-27 10:45:20 <ArtForzZz> roughly 6k intops = 1 hash/s
776 2011-02-27 10:45:49 <andrewh> typed with nose
777 2011-02-27 10:45:53 <ArtForzZz> well, more like 6.3, but who's counting
778 2011-02-27 10:46:06 <lfm> helps some I guess to have the right rotates
779 2011-02-27 10:46:10 <ArtForzZz> yep
780 2011-02-27 10:46:11 <Blitzboom> i hope i will never ever find a block on pooled mining
781 2011-02-27 10:46:21 <ArtForzZz> rotate op helps a lot
782 2011-02-27 10:46:24 <Blitzboom> i dont even want to see the information
783 2011-02-27 10:46:34 <ArtForzZz> drops that by about 1/3
784 2011-02-27 10:46:56 <ArtForzZz> 6356 vs 4148 ops
785 2011-02-27 10:48:26 <ArtForzZz> about 3840 if you also have a one-opcode Ch()
786 2011-02-27 10:48:49 <BlueMatt> which only art's miner has...
787 2011-02-27 10:49:21 <ArtForzZz> and mrbs iirc, but for some reason his is a LOT slower
788 2011-02-27 10:49:41 <ArtForzZz> either not using BFI_INT correctly or badly optimized algo
789 2011-02-27 10:50:16 <knotwork> do any of the little dongle things or smartcards do SHA256?
790 2011-02-27 10:50:21 <ArtForzZz> yes
791 2011-02-27 10:50:32 <ArtForzZz> very slowly
792 2011-02-27 10:50:50 <knotwork> yeah but how cheap are they by the many thousands
793 2011-02-27 10:50:57 <ArtForzZz> doesnt matter
794 2011-02-27 10:51:06 <BlueMatt> are you ever gonna release your miner art?
795 2011-02-27 10:51:23 <ArtForzZz> BlueMatt: public? probably not.
796 2011-02-27 10:51:25 <lfm> knotwork: considering they only usually need to do one or two per second, we need thousands and millions per second
797 2011-02-27 10:52:58 <ArtForzZz> also bitcoinhash is a *lot* different from normal sha256
798 2011-02-27 10:53:03 <knotwork> are there things CPUs can do faster than GPUs? cryptologically useful things?
799 2011-02-27 10:53:17 <molecular> does a miner mine faster if you dont look?
800 2011-02-27 10:53:18 <BlueMatt> ArtForzZz: how so?
801 2011-02-27 10:53:38 <ArtForzZz> you usually hash a stream of data
802 2011-02-27 10:53:54 <ArtForzZz> not nearly the same block over and over
803 2011-02-27 10:54:07 <ArtForzZz> = very different balance of computation vs. I/O
804 2011-02-27 10:54:20 <BlueMatt> ah, ok
805 2011-02-27 10:54:46 <Blitzboom> do trees disappear if you dont look? :D
806 2011-02-27 10:55:12 <lfm> do the dice roll different if you dont look?
807 2011-02-27 10:55:14 <molecular> Blitzboom, you mean "does a falling tree make a sound if noone listens?"
808 2011-02-27 10:55:31 <Blitzboom> ah, that was it
809 2011-02-27 10:56:17 <ArtForzZz> and, is schrodingers cat dead?
810 2011-02-27 10:56:36 <Blitzboom> yes and no
811 2011-02-27 10:56:51 <ArtForzZz> or both ;)
812 2011-02-27 10:56:51 <molecular> would quantum computers be able to calculate the nonce given the hash?
813 2011-02-27 10:57:14 <Blitzboom> haha quantum computers
814 2011-02-27 10:57:16 <ArtForzZz> nope
815 2011-02-27 10:57:20 <BlueMatt> does it matter? they can calculate the private keys from the public keys
816 2011-02-27 10:57:29 <molecular> can they?
817 2011-02-27 10:57:31 <ArtForzZz> reduction of entropy doesn't work that way
818 2011-02-27 10:58:16 <BlueMatt> Art: do the key pairs not still depend on prime factorization?
819 2011-02-27 10:58:35 <ArtForzZz> ECC keypairs? nope, they depend on the EC-DLP
820 2011-02-27 10:58:53 <molecular> hm, my laymans understanding of a quantum computer is: you can put in all kinds of data in "parallel", then read the desired result and somehow find the "correct" input. but that seems to be a totally bogus understanding.
821 2011-02-27 10:58:55 <ArtForzZz> if you're compressing 80 bytes to 16, theres about 2**512 possible inputs producing each output
822 2011-02-27 10:59:42 <BlueMatt> well quantum computers can calculate rsa keypairs which would kill all modern ssl
823 2011-02-27 10:59:44 <molecular> 8*(80-16) = 512
824 2011-02-27 10:59:49 <ArtForzZz> yep
825 2011-02-27 11:00:13 <molecular> but to find one of the 2^512 is good enough
826 2011-02-27 11:00:23 <ArtForzZz> depends on what you want to do with it?
827 2011-02-27 11:00:31 <lfm> to 32 bytes?
828 2011-02-27 11:00:45 <ArtForzZz> wait, sha256
829 2011-02-27 11:00:50 <molecular> go from hash + part of data -> nonce
830 2011-02-27 11:00:54 <ArtForzZz> so it's 80 to 32 bytes
831 2011-02-27 11:01:19 <sipa> andrewh: done :)
832 2011-02-27 11:01:42 <ArtForzZz> so "only" 2**384 possible inputs ;)
833 2011-02-27 11:01:54 <ArtForzZz> molecular: in theory it could be possible
834 2011-02-27 11:01:55 <molecular> BlueMatt, so if I have a 1024 bit quantum computer and a 1024 bit rsa pubkey, I can calculate the private key?
835 2011-02-27 11:02:17 <ArtForzZz> in polynomial (or was it linear?) time, yes
836 2011-02-27 11:02:25 <BlueMatt> linear iirc
837 2011-02-27 11:02:30 <lfm> for a single hash output but we accept any hash with the right zero bits at one end
838 2011-02-27 11:02:34 <ArtForzZz> and we still have no clue what the constants would look like
839 2011-02-27 11:02:39 <molecular> doesnt matter, polynomial is good enough
840 2011-02-27 11:02:48 <ArtForzZz> or, it does matter
841 2011-02-27 11:02:48 <BlueMatt> no, its polynomial
842 2011-02-27 11:03:06 <ArtForzZz> constants *do* matter in the real world
843 2011-02-27 11:04:15 <molecular> ok, so will it be in O(n^2) or O(n^3) <- that might be ok with n = 1024 for some practical purposes
844 2011-02-27 11:04:24 <andrewh> sipa: nifty
845 2011-02-27 11:05:02 <andrewh> wow
846 2011-02-27 11:05:07 <andrewh> the %/day graph is crazy
847 2011-02-27 11:05:38 <BlueMatt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shor's_algorithm
848 2011-02-27 11:05:42 <ArtForzZz> yup, wp says O(log(n)**3)
849 2011-02-27 11:06:38 <molecular> like the practical purpose of stealing the 400.000 btc at adress xyz
850 2011-02-27 11:06:58 <ArtForzZz> you need soemthing different for DLP though
851 2011-02-27 11:07:03 <molecular> haven't quantum computers been built with like 8 bits or something... are they usable?
852 2011-02-27 11:07:04 <BlueMatt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_cryptography#Quantum_computing_attacks
853 2011-02-27 11:07:38 <ArtForzZz> modified shors should work
854 2011-02-27 11:07:53 <ArtForzZz> lol
855 2011-02-27 11:08:07 <BlueMatt> so...bitcoin's key pairs are still vulnerable if a quantum computer is built
856 2011-02-27 11:08:32 <ArtForzZz> a 256-qbit quantum computer
857 2011-02-27 11:08:47 <molecular> we have other problems then, I think (ssh)
858 2011-02-27 11:08:58 <BlueMatt> more like ssl
859 2011-02-27 11:09:28 <nextgens> think your real-world bank
860 2011-02-27 11:09:30 <ArtForzZz> which iirc is a major problem, as so far it looks like error rate increases exponentially with # of qbits
861 2011-02-27 11:09:39 <eps> quantum computing would likely be such a sea change that bitcoin becomes irrelevant
862 2011-02-27 11:09:45 <ArtForzZz> yep
863 2011-02-27 11:09:52 <eps> free energy would probably follow shortly after
864 2011-02-27 11:10:03 <eps> at which point we are living in the star trak universe
865 2011-02-27 11:10:08 <eps> s/trak/trek/
866 2011-02-27 11:10:19 <eps> and money is no longer needed
867 2011-02-27 11:10:37 <BlueMatt> if a q-computer is built, it will first be at the govt level, so they will have control of virtually all public/private algos
868 2011-02-27 11:10:58 <BlueMatt> It will *eventually* be included in other computers, but that is a long way off
869 2011-02-27 11:11:28 <BlueMatt> and do we even have a public/private algo on q-computers that cant be broken with q-computers?
870 2011-02-27 11:12:09 <eps> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_money
871 2011-02-27 11:12:14 <molecular> ArtForzZz, that error-rate problem a fundemental one or one that can be contained?
872 2011-02-27 11:12:41 <ArtForzZz> iirc so far it looks like a fundamental problem
873 2011-02-27 11:13:12 <molecular> hmm, decoherence time...
874 2011-02-27 11:13:17 <ArtForzZz> havent followed it recently, but a few years ago all practical approaches showed the same behaviour
875 2011-02-27 11:13:51 <molecular> good, we need strong crypto
876 2011-02-27 11:38:25 <knotwork> the problems actually solved so far by actual quantum computers are actually so trivial that
877 2011-02-27 11:38:40 <knotwork> they hardly really qualify as an actual proof of concept.
878 2011-02-27 11:39:08 <knotwork> search for Christian's papers about the fundamental mathematical mistake embedded right
879 2011-02-27 11:39:24 <knotwork> in the first few assumptions of Bell's Theorem.
880 2011-02-27 11:40:04 <knotwork> In one of his papers he shows how clicky-type plastic balls that click together two hemispheres,
881 2011-02-27 11:40:31 <knotwork> weighted symettrically with weights inside diametriacally opposed, can duplicate Bell's results
882 2011-02-27 11:40:47 <knotwork> when you heat them like popcorn to get random exploding-apart hemispheres
883 2011-02-27 11:41:18 <knotwork> the fundamental math error is basically akin to treating a die as in dice as if it were only 1-dimensional
884 2011-02-27 11:41:37 <knotwork> then thinking it amazing how 1 and 6 correllate, 2 and 5 correlate, 3 and 4 correlate
885 2011-02-27 11:42:05 <knotwork> (assuming traditional 3d cubic die in which opposite faces pips total 7)
886 2011-02-27 11:42:17 <sethsethseth> interesting
887 2011-02-27 11:42:21 <knotwork> its a geometry error basically
888 2011-02-27 11:45:18 <knotwork> I am still a bit confused though how there can be no hidden variables if there are in fact entire ignored/forgotten dimensions
889 2011-02-27 11:45:45 <knotwork> seems like those ommitted geometric facts pretty much must amount to "hidden variables"
890 2011-02-27 11:46:24 <knotwork> or maybe think "not hidden variables, simply ones mathematicians totally forgot for four decades or so"
891 2011-02-27 11:47:13 <knotwork> if Christian is right gosh knows what other things maths and physics still believe that are basically
892 2011-02-27 11:47:23 <knotwork> typoes they all overlooked since gosh knows when
893 2011-02-27 11:47:52 <knotwork> programmers should feel a warm glow knowing they aren't the only people who write buggy things :)
894 2011-02-27 13:01:25 <gribble> I do not know about 'bc,d', but I do know about these similar topics: 'bbe'
895 2011-02-27 13:01:25 <TD> ;;bc,d
896 2011-02-27 13:01:32 <TD> bummer. i forgot the syntax
897 2011-02-27 13:01:42 <TD> ;;bc,stats