1 2011-03-12 00:07:06 <BlueMatt> please vote for UPnP on/off by default: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4392.0
  2 2011-03-12 00:09:12 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, UPnP isn't the right solution
  3 2011-03-12 00:09:19 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: how so?
  4 2011-03-12 00:09:34 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, the p2p network is basically a message passing scheme built on top of TCP
  5 2011-03-12 00:09:45 <phantomcircuit> UDP + STUN is the correct approach
  6 2011-03-12 00:10:02 <phantomcircuit> although i guess that would mean all tx/blocks have to be < 64k
  7 2011-03-12 00:10:19 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: that is no longer a good p2p network where each node can accept incomming connections
  8 2011-03-12 00:10:39 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, uhm i take it you dont know what STUN is
  9 2011-03-12 00:10:56 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: stun is considered a security risk for some
 10 2011-03-12 00:10:57 <Avemo> I do not, tell us
 11 2011-03-12 00:11:04 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: and blocked by some routers, including mine. by default
 12 2011-03-12 00:11:15 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: and sorry, I had forgotten what it was
 13 2011-03-12 00:13:10 <phantomcircuit> eh
 14 2011-03-12 00:13:15 <phantomcircuit> the fuck kind of router blocks STUN
 15 2011-03-12 00:13:20 <phantomcircuit> well whatever
 16 2011-03-12 00:13:36 <phantomcircuit> it would be trivial to mangle STUN and setup custom STUN servers
 17 2011-03-12 00:13:40 <jgarzik> I thought STUN used the same method as a DNS lookup, when using UDP
 18 2011-03-12 00:13:49 <jgarzik> router creates a port, and then you can use that for incoming
 19 2011-03-12 00:13:54 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: stun might be good, but changing the entire protocol for it would be a pita
 20 2011-03-12 00:13:54 <jgarzik> port mapping
 21 2011-03-12 00:14:18 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: plus upnp is more standard anyway
 22 2011-03-12 00:14:42 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, no stun uses DNS to find a default STUN server
 23 2011-03-12 00:15:33 <Diablo-D3> [08:13:15] <phantomcircuit> the fuck kind of router blocks STUN
 24 2011-03-12 00:15:35 <Diablo-D3> uh
 25 2011-03-12 00:15:46 <Diablo-D3> any router that wishes to be disconnected from the internet
 26 2011-03-12 00:15:51 <Diablo-D3> its a required internet RFC.
 27 2011-03-12 00:16:01 <da2ce7> ;;bc,gen 1000000
 28 2011-03-12 00:16:02 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 13.2008919704 BTC per day and 0.550037165432 BTC per hour.
 29 2011-03-12 00:16:03 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: the same method of creating router port<->behind-NAT host association on the router, with STUN protocol and DNS protocol
 30 2011-03-12 00:16:17 <da2ce7> ;;bc,gen 1000000 1w
 31 2011-03-12 00:16:18 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
 32 2011-03-12 00:16:25 <da2ce7> ;;bc,gen 1000000, 1w
 33 2011-03-12 00:16:26 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
 34 2011-03-12 00:16:29 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
 35 2011-03-12 00:16:31 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113199 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1712 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 14 hours, 13 minutes, and 52 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 66844.63923301
 36 2011-03-12 00:16:33 <Diablo-D3> if you block STUN and TURN, _important every day use apps break, period_
 37 2011-03-12 00:16:39 <da2ce7> ;;bc,help
 38 2011-03-12 00:16:39 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,labs, Alias bc,lbs, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,prob, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, and Alias bc,wiki
 39 2011-03-12 00:16:46 <BlueMatt> oops ok, I had stun completely confused with something else...
 40 2011-03-12 00:17:03 <jgarzik> you send a UDP packet out to a server (STUN or DNS), and that gives you a port on the router
 41 2011-03-12 00:17:05 <da2ce7> ;;bc,gend 1000000 1w
 42 2011-03-12 00:17:05 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
 43 2011-03-12 00:17:13 <da2ce7> ;;bc,gend
 44 2011-03-12 00:17:13 <gribble> (bc,gend <an alias, 2 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo The expected generation output, at $1 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of $2, is [math calc 50*24*60*60 / (1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256))] BTC per day and [math calc 50*60*60 / (1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256))] BTC per hour.".
 45 2011-03-12 00:17:15 <jgarzik> sigh
 46 2011-03-12 00:17:19 <jgarzik> gribble needs his own channel
 47 2011-03-12 00:17:27 <Diablo-D3> STUN and TURN are the standardized UDP NAT traversal protocols
 48 2011-03-12 00:17:34 <BlueMatt> or people need to learn to use /msg gribble
 49 2011-03-12 00:34:13 <blarzong> ahoy
 50 2011-03-12 00:34:15 <blarzong> bitcoin rules
 51 2011-03-12 00:34:51 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: UDP is not the right solution either
 52 2011-03-12 00:34:55 <luke-jr> the right solution is IPv6
 53 2011-03-12 00:35:10 <luke-jr> UPnP is the closest thing to the right solution, as long as you're using IPv4 and NAT
 54 2011-03-12 00:37:02 <Avemo> and as long as it is off by default
 55 2011-03-12 00:37:42 <blarzong> ;;bc,btcusd
 56 2011-03-12 00:37:43 <gribble> Error: "bc,btcusd" is not a valid command.
 57 2011-03-12 00:52:12 <luke-jr> Avemo: it should definitely be on by default
 58 2011-03-12 00:53:51 <Avemo> luke-jr read this http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4392.msg64239#msg64239 and think again
 59 2011-03-12 00:55:06 <luke-jr> Avemo: reads like nonsense
 60 2011-03-12 00:55:33 <Avemo> than I have nothing more to say
 61 2011-03-12 00:59:45 <blarzong> beep you've got coin!
 62 2011-03-12 01:02:05 <theorbtwo> Hi, guys.  I'm just getting into bitcoin and, coincidentally, I'm just starting on setting up a business, and I'm pondering accepting bitcoin for payment.
 63 2011-03-12 01:02:16 <blarzong> cool
 64 2011-03-12 01:02:37 <theorbtwo> Is this the right channel?  Is there a relevant FAQ I should be reading on best practices for accepting bitcoins?
 65 2011-03-12 01:02:58 <theorbtwo> For example, how many confirmations should I wait for on payments?
 66 2011-03-12 01:04:33 <blarzong> 6 is considered very good but it could take some time
 67 2011-03-12 01:05:25 <blarzong> you could also wait till it appears in the next block
 68 2011-03-12 01:06:32 <blarzong> 10 minutes per confirmation
 69 2011-03-12 01:07:19 <theorbtwo> Is there a formula of some sort for number of confirmations versus risk of repudation?
 70 2011-03-12 01:07:33 <theorbtwo> Ah.  Confirmation isn't the same as appearing in a block?
 71 2011-03-12 01:07:39 <blarzong> it is
 72 2011-03-12 01:09:04 <blarzong> yeah
 73 2011-03-12 01:13:31 <blarzong> ;;bc,stats
 74 2011-03-12 01:13:33 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113202 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1709 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 14 hours, 8 minutes, and 3 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 66762.55242418
 75 2011-03-12 01:14:46 <theorbtwo> So, in short, I generate a new bitcoin address for each payment, and wait for the total of all transactions into that account with at least N confirmations is at least val BTC.  (We can expect N confirmations to take n*10 minutes from when the user actually sent the money.)
 76 2011-03-12 01:14:53 <theorbtwo> Sound about right?
 77 2011-03-12 01:15:07 <blarzong> yeah
 78 2011-03-12 01:15:49 <theorbtwo> Great.  Now I have to figure out how to implment that (shouldn't be too bad, if I accept polling the bitcoind), and how to decide how much to charge in bitcoins.
 79 2011-03-12 01:17:19 <mizerydearia> ranking is improved at http://witcoin.com/ - how does it look?
 80 2011-03-12 01:18:43 <blarzong> an attacker would need around 76,000 quad core xeons to remove your transaction
 81 2011-03-12 01:19:19 <blarzong> n * 76,000 pc's for each confirmation you get
 82 2011-03-12 01:19:36 <blarzong> so already 1 confirmation is very strong
 83 2011-03-12 01:19:51 <theorbtwo> Er, right.  So it sounds like probably 1 is plenty.
 84 2011-03-12 01:20:46 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: I would recommend you check out nearlyfreespeech.net
 85 2011-03-12 01:20:52 <subpar> has difficulty dropped in the past?
 86 2011-03-12 01:20:57 <theorbtwo> Or, possibly, make the number of confirmations on a transaction proportional to the number of coins it contains, with a minimum of 1.
 87 2011-03-12 01:21:12 <blarzong> yeah
 88 2011-03-12 01:21:42 <blarzong> what are you selling?
 89 2011-03-12 01:22:34 <theorbtwo> Custom 3d prints.
 90 2011-03-12 01:22:46 <blarzong> cool
 91 2011-03-12 01:23:11 <theorbtwo> Thanks.
 92 2011-03-12 01:24:25 <luke-jr> 3D prints?
 93 2011-03-12 01:24:28 <luke-jr> what are those?
 94 2011-03-12 01:24:51 <luke-jr> like, can I print a bunch of Tonal rulers?
 95 2011-03-12 01:25:18 <theorbtwo> luke-jr: You give us a 3D CAD file describing an object.  We print it out of plastic, and send it to you in the mail.
 96 2011-03-12 01:25:29 <luke-jr> CAD? :/
 97 2011-03-12 01:25:40 <luke-jr> how about just SVG? :P
 98 2011-03-12 01:25:58 <luke-jr> (your competitors do SVG)
 99 2011-03-12 01:26:30 <theorbtwo> luke-jr: Well, SVG is a two-dimensional format.  If you just want something that shape of constant height, sure, we can do SVG.
100 2011-03-12 01:26:37 <luke-jr> only reason I haven't done it with a competitor yet, is because I'm not confident enough in producing a SVG that has the right dimensions
101 2011-03-12 01:26:55 <luke-jr> well, I was thinking bump-map style
102 2011-03-12 01:27:01 <theorbtwo> What is a tonal ruler?
103 2011-03-12 01:27:12 <luke-jr> flat on one side, curved on the other, with indents for stuff
104 2011-03-12 01:27:19 <luke-jr> a ruler, with tonal units
105 2011-03-12 01:28:30 <luke-jr> IIRC it would be about 6 inches long, divided into 16 segments
106 2011-03-12 01:29:30 <mizerydearia> MagicalTux, Hiya.  Do you live in Japan?
107 2011-03-12 01:32:07 <luke-jr> he does
108 2011-03-12 01:34:46 <genjix> mizerydearia: yes he does
109 2011-03-12 01:35:50 <genjix> didnt see luke's reply :p
110 2011-03-12 01:36:10 <blarzong> sup
111 2011-03-12 01:40:06 <genjix> luke-jr: im doing a few things... but when i cycle back around to spesmilo, i'm going to change some things :p
112 2011-03-12 01:40:38 <genjix> like there's going to be a global object called Borg
113 2011-03-12 01:40:43 <theorbtwo> luke-jr: My googling is failing.  Can you give me a rough SVG, and some explination, or a web page?
114 2011-03-12 01:41:07 <da2ce7> is themagicaltux the only bitcoiner from japan? or do we have others?
115 2011-03-12 01:41:10 <genjix> we can also change that name if you wish
116 2011-03-12 01:41:22 <genjix> da2ce7: i think so. he told me his exchange has had 0 volume
117 2011-03-12 01:41:33 <da2ce7> :(
118 2011-03-12 01:42:07 <da2ce7> but didn't themagicaltux by mtgox?
119 2011-03-12 01:42:17 <Tril> theorbtwo: I think you are looking for this https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tonal_BitCoin
120 2011-03-12 01:44:33 <blarzong> werrd'
121 2011-03-12 01:45:36 <blarzong> mars needs moms
122 2011-03-12 01:46:40 <Tril> it is
123 2011-03-12 01:46:47 <luke-jr> genjix: & why?
124 2011-03-12 01:47:15 <blarzong> http://www.readwriteweb.com/hack/2011/03/p2p-api-discovered-in-latest-b.php   google is adding a p2p api to chromium
125 2011-03-12 01:47:18 <luke-jr> Tril: no, he isn't.
126 2011-03-12 01:47:32 <blarzong> that could enable bitcoin for the masses
127 2011-03-12 01:47:34 <Tril> my bad.
128 2011-03-12 01:49:40 <luke-jr> theorbtwo: http://books.google.com/books?id=aNYGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1&cad=0_1#v=twopage&q&f=false -- go there, and click back 1 page
129 2011-03-12 01:49:49 <luke-jr> eg, to page 0
130 2011-03-12 01:50:02 <luke-jr> it should have pictures of 2 rulers
131 2011-03-12 01:50:16 <luke-jr> more like 4 kindof
132 2011-03-12 01:51:07 <xelister> 5 BTC for getting my ubuntu to boot
133 2011-03-12 01:51:36 <validus> needs a lil more info than that
134 2011-03-12 01:51:37 <luke-jr> xelister: what's wrong?
135 2011-03-12 01:51:45 <xelister> apparently ubuntu sucks epic cocks and sometimes failt to boot, esp when using 2 harddrives - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-center/+bug/705988
136 2011-03-12 01:51:56 <xelister> fuck ubuntu
137 2011-03-12 01:51:59 <validus> hehe the fun
138 2011-03-12 01:52:06 <validus> get mint exlister
139 2011-03-12 01:52:11 <validus> see if itll do it. also what pc are you on?
140 2011-03-12 01:52:22 <validus> some things require boot options to boot proper
141 2011-03-12 01:52:39 <luke-jr> lol
142 2011-03-12 01:52:43 <xelister> well read the bug report
143 2011-03-12 01:52:45 <luke-jr> get Debian or Gentoo
144 2011-03-12 01:53:02 <xelister> fucking grub is trying to do some needless shit and it causes it to fail
145 2011-03-12 01:55:47 <genjix> why is it so fashionable to hate on ubuntu?
146 2011-03-12 01:55:56 <genjix> im super happy canonical made linux for the masses
147 2011-03-12 01:55:58 <validus> i dont like the way ti handles things
148 2011-03-12 01:56:05 <validus> ive had 7 install discs fail
149 2011-03-12 01:56:15 <validus> my reasons for hating crapbuntu is a lil more than the os itself
150 2011-03-12 01:56:31 <genjix> i've had 0 fail. been using it for 5 years
151 2011-03-12 01:56:48 <validus> ive had install fail. user/pass fail. no boot. no boot. install fail again
152 2011-03-12 01:56:58 <validus> their trashing gnome cuz they couldnt get their bugs fixed and make their own gui
153 2011-03-12 01:57:09 <validus> they are more ample to release another new version # than fix their bugs that are already present in the current
154 2011-03-12 01:57:23 <validus> i know quite a few dev testers for ubuntu and they say the same exact thing. itll work with some tweaqking
155 2011-03-12 01:57:25 <validus> tweaking*
156 2011-03-12 01:57:50 <validus> then you got every noob in the world on it thats fine. but automated penguins should be when you learned how to use console and actually know what your doing. not just automatic everything and watch them yell at you saying this is like Dos
157 2011-03-12 01:58:05 <xelister> genjix: ubuntu is full of fail
158 2011-03-12 01:58:06 <validus> thats why i went to mint. 0 problems. based off debian and ubuntu. can use same repositories. i like it
159 2011-03-12 01:58:34 <blarzong> o, ndl
160 2011-03-12 01:58:35 <genjix> i thought mint is just ubuntu but with flash+stuff installed
161 2011-03-12 01:58:37 <validus> still automates a lot but i have more control
162 2011-03-12 01:58:41 <genjix> ubuntu does that now
163 2011-03-12 01:58:43 <validus> no its a lil more
164 2011-03-12 01:58:49 <xelister> flash is gay
165 2011-03-12 01:58:51 <validus> i wont goto ubuntu ever again i really cant stand it
166 2011-03-12 01:59:00 <validus> if im doing vps's i rather have centos on it
167 2011-03-12 01:59:03 <validus> and i really dont care for centos
168 2011-03-12 01:59:12 <genjix> xelister: i didnt know software had a sexual preference
169 2011-03-12 01:59:22 <validus> espicially wiht the lftp ssl seg fault error i keep getting and id ont know why
170 2011-03-12 01:59:30 <xelister> genjix: it does since the time when Flash was released
171 2011-03-12 01:59:49 <validus> however t he 64 bit version of flash is working great in windows and linux both
172 2011-03-12 01:59:56 <validus> i havent really had any problems cept for a few minor occurences
173 2011-03-12 02:00:27 <validus> like if i had youtube maximized and after the video was done i clicked one of the others that came up itd restart the video i jsut watched instead of playing the new one
174 2011-03-12 02:00:28 <validus> lol
175 2011-03-12 02:01:26 <luke-jr> genjix: Ubuntu hasn't booted on any of my PCs, ever
176 2011-03-12 02:01:28 <validus> and mint has to be more like i didnt have ubuntu's ssl remote exploit on my mint box
177 2011-03-12 02:01:46 <validus> most ubuntu needs boot options to boot proper on alot of things and they have weird exploits that come out and you better be on top of you game with it
178 2011-03-12 02:01:47 <luke-jr> genjix: I managed to get it installed on a friend's once, but found it impossible to get wifi to work
179 2011-03-12 02:01:58 <luke-jr> actually, 3 friend's computers
180 2011-03-12 02:02:00 <validus> hehe the wifi drivers are fun
181 2011-03-12 02:02:02 <luke-jr> it installed, but wifi never worked
182 2011-03-12 02:02:09 <luke-jr> validus: only 1 of the cases was driver-related
183 2011-03-12 02:02:12 <validus> i think mint comes with a kind of modified wifi driver to make it work better
184 2011-03-12 02:02:17 <luke-jr> the long-standing problem is networkmanager never working
185 2011-03-12 02:02:25 <validus> not for certain on this as i dont use wifi
186 2011-03-12 02:02:37 <validus> its the drivers not the distro
187 2011-03-12 02:02:42 <validus> but sometimes it is the distro
188 2011-03-12 02:02:49 <luke-jr> nah, drivers are fine
189 2011-03-12 02:02:55 <validus> ive had it fail so many times i just cringe at the mention of the name ubuntu
190 2011-03-12 02:02:58 <luke-jr> Ubuntu just manages to screw up Linux
191 2011-03-12 02:02:59 <validus> its african word meaning piece of shit
192 2011-03-12 02:03:10 <validus> i despise that distro
193 2011-03-12 02:03:26 <luke-jr> theorbtwo: so&? :p
194 2011-03-12 02:03:29 <validus> you wanna see something funny. give an ubuntu user a slackware machine
195 2011-03-12 02:03:33 <genjix> weird... i've never had issues
196 2011-03-12 02:03:40 <luke-jr> genjix: btw, I just fixed I think all the outstanding bugs with Spesmilo :p
197 2011-03-12 02:03:42 <validus> fresh install with no net setup
198 2011-03-12 02:03:46 <validus> oh and the joy begins lol
199 2011-03-12 02:03:49 <luke-jr> genjix: so what's this Borg bs?
200 2011-03-12 02:03:55 <validus> no automated penguines WTF!!!!
201 2011-03-12 02:04:00 <genjix> luke-jr: what's the deal with this new wallet protocol?
202 2011-03-12 02:04:13 <genjix> i see lots of text but nothing concrete
203 2011-03-12 02:04:20 <luke-jr> genjix: concrete comes after text
204 2011-03-12 02:04:25 <luke-jr> genjix: that's the right way to design protocols
205 2011-03-12 02:04:31 <validus> but if ubuntu works for ya then fucking a. to each their own
206 2011-03-12 02:04:38 <validus> im not one to trash someone for using a different distro
207 2011-03-12 02:04:42 <genjix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development
208 2011-03-12 02:04:44 <genjix> :)
209 2011-03-12 02:04:50 <validus> just hope to god your keeping up with security updates and not just relying on update manager
210 2011-03-12 02:05:03 <luke-jr> genjix: that's software development, not protocol development
211 2011-03-12 02:05:11 <genjix> luke-jr: Now is better than never. Although never is often better than *right* now. If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea. If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea.
212 2011-03-12 02:05:17 <luke-jr> genjix: ALL standards are worked out on paper, before implementation begins
213 2011-03-12 02:05:39 <genjix> luke-jr: so.... you want to stick with json ... or?
214 2011-03-12 02:05:45 <luke-jr> genjix: I don't pretend to be familiar with all the problems with JSON-RPC
215 2011-03-12 02:05:55 <luke-jr> no, all the JSON implementations seem to have bugs of some kind or another
216 2011-03-12 02:05:58 <genjix> i mean will it be json-rpc 2.0 or something else?
217 2011-03-12 02:06:00 <genjix> ok good
218 2011-03-12 02:06:07 <luke-jr> IMO, protobuf is the way to go
219 2011-03-12 02:06:11 <Diablo-D3> okay
220 2011-03-12 02:06:12 <Diablo-D3> you know what
221 2011-03-12 02:06:13 <luke-jr> but I'm not in charge
222 2011-03-12 02:06:14 <luke-jr> :p
223 2011-03-12 02:06:18 <Diablo-D3> one more fucking word about this fucking shit
224 2011-03-12 02:06:22 <Diablo-D3> and Im not coding this shit anymore
225 2011-03-12 02:06:28 <genjix> i see
226 2011-03-12 02:06:28 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: good, nobody wants Java crud
227 2011-03-12 02:06:37 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: fuck you
228 2011-03-12 02:06:39 <Diablo-D3> and go fuck yourself
229 2011-03-12 02:06:50 <genjix> Diablo-D3: ?
230 2011-03-12 02:06:53 <luke-jr> /ignore Diablo-D3
231 2011-03-12 02:06:58 <luke-jr> genjix: he's a troll
232 2011-03-12 02:07:04 <Spenvo> lol
233 2011-03-12 02:07:06 <genjix> no, tell me
234 2011-03-12 02:07:11 <Diablo-D3> genjix: Im getting tired of luke-jr trolling about jsonrpc
235 2011-03-12 02:07:14 <genjix> what's he talking about?
236 2011-03-12 02:07:17 <Diablo-D3> it exists, its what Satoshi chose, deal with it
237 2011-03-12 02:07:21 <Diablo-D3> no more fucking bitching
238 2011-03-12 02:07:21 <genjix> Diablo-D3: but json-rpc sucks
239 2011-03-12 02:07:26 <luke-jr> genjix: he thinks Java and HTTP REST JSON crap is god
240 2011-03-12 02:07:30 <Diablo-D3> genjix: yes it does, but guess what: IT WORKS
241 2011-03-12 02:07:37 <genjix> no it doesn't.
242 2011-03-12 02:07:43 <Diablo-D3> the whole SOAP style of shit sucks
243 2011-03-12 02:07:47 <genjix> it's broken in python/perl/php
244 2011-03-12 02:07:52 <Diablo-D3> genjix: no its not.
245 2011-03-12 02:07:56 <genjix> yes it is.
246 2011-03-12 02:08:00 <Diablo-D3> no, it really isnt.
247 2011-03-12 02:08:05 <genjix> and it doesn't have persistance either
248 2011-03-12 02:08:09 <genjix> so i cannot pull updates
249 2011-03-12 02:08:13 <Diablo-D3> persistance of what?
250 2011-03-12 02:08:14 <genjix> and maintain a session
251 2011-03-12 02:08:15 <Diablo-D3> its over HTTP.
252 2011-03-12 02:08:21 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: look at this crap and tell me Bitcoind's JSON-RPC doesn't suck: http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/spesmilo/blobs/master/cashier.py#line247
253 2011-03-12 02:08:40 <Diablo-D3> what luke-jr keeps rattling on about HAS NOTHIGN TO DO WITH WHAT HE THINKS ITS DOES
254 2011-03-12 02:08:45 <genjix> yeah but say i want to see all new transactions
255 2011-03-12 02:08:47 <Diablo-D3> PROTOBUF IS A SERIALIZATION LIBRARY
256 2011-03-12 02:08:54 <Diablo-D3> ITS NOT A NETWORK PROTOCOL
257 2011-03-12 02:09:08 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: so is JSON, idiot
258 2011-03-12 02:09:57 <Diablo-D3> genjix: yes, but luke-jr doesnt understand that this problem has already been solved about 50 times
259 2011-03-12 02:10:00 <luke-jr> genjix: I should abstract the polling hacks& :p
260 2011-03-12 02:10:05 <Diablo-D3> yet hes proposing ANOTHER one.
261 2011-03-12 02:10:24 <Diablo-D3> this problem has already been solved _internet wide_ _for all languages_ _for every single kind of app_
262 2011-03-12 02:10:24 <genjix> luke-jr: hey did you say you're a perl programmer?
263 2011-03-12 02:10:30 <Diablo-D3> hes not a perl programmer
264 2011-03-12 02:10:36 <luke-jr> genjix: yeah, I know Perl&
265 2011-03-12 02:10:44 <genjix> k
266 2011-03-12 02:10:46 <Diablo-D3> I refuse to have him be a programmer of a language I enjoy
267 2011-03-12 02:10:47 <luke-jr> why? :p
268 2011-03-12 02:10:48 <Diablo-D3> we dont need his kind
269 2011-03-12 02:10:59 <genjix> Diablo-D3: cmon dude... room for all types :)
270 2011-03-12 02:11:10 <luke-jr> genjix: just ignore him :p
271 2011-03-12 02:11:12 <genjix> anyway perl sucks
272 2011-03-12 02:11:15 <luke-jr> LOL
273 2011-03-12 02:11:16 <genjix> hahaha
274 2011-03-12 02:11:23 <Diablo-D3> see, the problem here is
275 2011-03-12 02:11:25 <luke-jr> Perl beats Python hands down
276 2011-03-12 02:11:27 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr isnt a programmer
277 2011-03-12 02:11:29 <Spenvo> D3 etiquette?
278 2011-03-12 02:11:32 <genjix> Diablo-D3: so what do you propose instead of json-rpc?
279 2011-03-12 02:11:53 <jgarzik> "ALL standards are worked out on paper, before implementation begins"
280 2011-03-12 02:11:56 <jgarzik> thank god that's not true :)
281 2011-03-12 02:11:57 <Diablo-D3> genjix: I propose we use an existing system that works for everybody else and is supported in every language.
282 2011-03-12 02:12:16 <luke-jr> jgarzik: example implementations don't count :P
283 2011-03-12 02:12:33 <genjix> i say just throw something out there
284 2011-03-12 02:12:46 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: good. suggest one. I haven't heard it
285 2011-03-12 02:12:47 <Diablo-D3> genjix: websockets + json is what I suggested, but Im also open to anything else that isnt a pile of shit
286 2011-03-12 02:12:53 <jgarzik> luke-jr: IETF is an implementation-first organization.  The internet was built on "write the spec AFTER the software works"
287 2011-03-12 02:12:57 <luke-jr> C doesn't support websockets or JSON
288 2011-03-12 02:13:03 <luke-jr> jgarzik: oh?
289 2011-03-12 02:13:08 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr, as usual, is an ignorant fuck.
290 2011-03-12 02:13:21 <Diablo-D3> and C supports _text_ you fucking idiot.
291 2011-03-12 02:13:25 <Diablo-D3> thats all json is. its text.
292 2011-03-12 02:13:33 <Diablo-D3> I can write a json parser in C in like 50 lines.
293 2011-03-12 02:14:13 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I was thinking more W3c, but I guess thinking about the IETF stuff you have a point
294 2011-03-12 02:14:32 <genjix> rpc.cpp is going to keep growing. it already takes an age to compile.
295 2011-03-12 02:14:37 <Netsniper> http://www.geekfill.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/who_is_at_the_door.gif
296 2011-03-12 02:14:42 <luke-jr> in that case, maybe I'll throw together something stupid and flawed in Perl and get people to complain about that
297 2011-03-12 02:14:56 <jgarzik> mtve's perl client works well
298 2011-03-12 02:15:07 <Diablo-D3> so, whatever
299 2011-03-12 02:15:08 <jgarzik> more advanced than python efforts or bitcoinj
300 2011-03-12 02:15:10 <Diablo-D3> I dont fucking care anymore
301 2011-03-12 02:15:10 <luke-jr> yeah, I pinged mtve the other day but he didn't respond
302 2011-03-12 02:15:17 <luke-jr> jgarzik: know if he has a repo anywhere?
303 2011-03-12 02:15:21 <Diablo-D3> I guess all projects die eventually this way
304 2011-03-12 02:15:27 <Diablo-D3> idiots come in, bitch about shit, and piss off all the developers
305 2011-03-12 02:15:31 <Diablo-D3> no wonder satoshi quit
306 2011-03-12 02:15:35 <Diablo-D3> I dont blame him
307 2011-03-12 02:15:38 <genjix> luke-jr: so say i have a list in protobuf
308 2011-03-12 02:15:44 <genjix> and i add a new item to the list
309 2011-03-12 02:15:52 <genjix> will subscribed apps get the update?
310 2011-03-12 02:16:02 <Diablo-D3> genjix: protobuf is not a network protocol.
311 2011-03-12 02:16:06 <genjix> and is there a hook for them to update internally?
312 2011-03-12 02:16:06 <luke-jr> genjix: protobuf isn't a protocol, as Diablo-D3 mentioned
313 2011-03-12 02:16:16 <Diablo-D3> which is why luke-jr 's idea fails
314 2011-03-12 02:16:21 <Diablo-D3> he doesnt suggest any network protocol.
315 2011-03-12 02:16:26 <genjix> oh
316 2011-03-12 02:16:30 <luke-jr> genjix: it's more like a binary JSON equivalent
317 2011-03-12 02:16:41 <luke-jr> except efficient and doesn't have a ton of buggy implementations
318 2011-03-12 02:16:48 <genjix> well cool. this is like 30%
319 2011-03-12 02:16:51 <Diablo-D3> its not efficient
320 2011-03-12 02:17:04 <Diablo-D3> all good serializer impls of any kind are all in the same ballpark.
321 2011-03-12 02:17:05 <genjix> does it have to be efficient?
322 2011-03-12 02:17:05 <jgarzik> not really.  protobuf data structures are not very dynamic in -structure-, but JSON permits such.
323 2011-03-12 02:17:35 <luke-jr> jgarzik: they're dynamic enough for a standardized structure to be developed, and extensions on top of that
324 2011-03-12 02:17:54 <Diablo-D3> protobuf, thrift, kyro, jackson, avro
325 2011-03-12 02:17:59 <Diablo-D3> they're all pretty fast.
326 2011-03-12 02:18:03 <luke-jr> genjix: probably not. the only real reason I don't like JSON is its implementations
327 2011-03-12 02:18:14 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: yeah, fuck you/.
328 2011-03-12 02:18:17 <jgarzik> dynamic == changeable at runtime
329 2011-03-12 02:18:25 <Diablo-D3> json is implemented well in almost every language.
330 2011-03-12 02:18:32 <Diablo-D3> you're just too fucking retarded to find a good impl.
331 2011-03-12 02:18:39 <Diablo-D3> and you're also too fucking retarded to code your own.
332 2011-03-12 02:18:42 <genjix> find one for php
333 2011-03-12 02:18:43 <luke-jr> jgarzik: in that sense, protobuf does fail
334 2011-03-12 02:18:58 <jgarzik> that takes balls :)
335 2011-03-12 02:19:00 <luke-jr> lol
336 2011-03-12 02:19:01 <Diablo-D3> genjix: doesnt php have one built into the language?
337 2011-03-12 02:19:18 <genjix> Diablo-D3: doesn't support a different type for nums
338 2011-03-12 02:19:20 <genjix> it uses float
339 2011-03-12 02:19:26 <Diablo-D3> thats because bitcoin is wrong
340 2011-03-12 02:19:34 <genjix> i think so too.
341 2011-03-12 02:19:35 <Diablo-D3> it should list money values in ubtc
342 2011-03-12 02:19:43 <luke-jr> uBTC is 100 base units
343 2011-03-12 02:19:44 <genjix> or as strings
344 2011-03-12 02:20:00 <luke-jr> learn your SI if you love it so much
345 2011-03-12 02:20:07 <genjix> using floats for financial units in any way is atrocious.
346 2011-03-12 02:20:13 <Diablo-D3> genjix: its illegal.
347 2011-03-12 02:20:19 <Diablo-D3> if its actually money, its illegal.
348 2011-03-12 02:20:21 <genjix> i did not know that.
349 2011-03-12 02:20:27 <Diablo-D3> there is actually laws about this in many countries.
350 2011-03-12 02:20:29 <blarzong> greetings
351 2011-03-12 02:20:38 <Diablo-D3> btc isnt money, so we're "fine"
352 2011-03-12 02:20:41 <Diablo-D3> but the thing is
353 2011-03-12 02:20:55 <genjix> in any case, Python's JSON-RPC also doesn't support using decimal (but normal json.loads does have it as an option)
354 2011-03-12 02:20:56 <Diablo-D3> first rule of converting fixed point numerical representations to a human readable text format
355 2011-03-12 02:21:02 <Diablo-D3> scale it up so the decimal is gone
356 2011-03-12 02:21:07 <genjix> yep
357 2011-03-12 02:21:08 <Diablo-D3> and put that in your fucking API docks.
358 2011-03-12 02:21:50 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: and no, microbtc you idiot
359 2011-03-12 02:21:55 <genjix> the other 2 bad things about the json is a) extending/working with it, is messy.  b) no persistance.
360 2011-03-12 02:22:17 <Diablo-D3> genjix: persistence isnt what you think it is
361 2011-03-12 02:22:21 <Diablo-D3> thats part of the _network_ protocol.
362 2011-03-12 02:22:24 <genjix> microBTC = 10^-6
363 2011-03-12 02:22:36 <genjix> doesn't have to be.
364 2011-03-12 02:22:38 <Diablo-D3> genjix: yeah, but nano is too small.
365 2011-03-12 02:22:45 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: microBTC is 0.000001 BTC, idiot
366 2011-03-12 02:22:48 <Diablo-D3> and ???BTC looks cool
367 2011-03-12 02:22:50 <genjix> for instance, the JSON could take a session ID
368 2011-03-12 02:23:02 <Diablo-D3> genjix: yes, but the issue is we cant push events
369 2011-03-12 02:23:02 <genjix> and then you query it for updates.
370 2011-03-12 02:23:10 <Diablo-D3> genjix: and theres nothing in bitcoin that requires sessions
371 2011-03-12 02:23:18 <genjix> listtransactions
372 2011-03-12 02:23:20 <Diablo-D3> and json already has request ids
373 2011-03-12 02:23:29 <Diablo-D3> bitcoind just doesnt use them
374 2011-03-12 02:23:37 <Diablo-D3> er, jsonrpc has them
375 2011-03-12 02:23:52 <Diablo-D3> ever wonder what the id: 1 was for? thats your request id.
376 2011-03-12 02:23:59 <Diablo-D3> it can be part of an ongoing session
377 2011-03-12 02:24:05 <Diablo-D3> but as I said, nothing in bitcoin is useful for this.
378 2011-03-12 02:24:12 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt magically give you push events
379 2011-03-12 02:24:21 <Diablo-D3> and forcing the server to remember the client state is inherently broken
380 2011-03-12 02:24:36 <genjix> why?
381 2011-03-12 02:24:38 <Diablo-D3> theres a reason why the internet moved from doing that on inherently stateless protocols
382 2011-03-12 02:24:53 <Diablo-D3> its too problematic and it makes it difficult for clusters to sync state
383 2011-03-12 02:25:03 <genjix> you don't need to sync state
384 2011-03-12 02:25:04 <Diablo-D3> its easier to make the client more intelligent and allow more flexible data queries to the server
385 2011-03-12 02:25:09 <luke-jr> genjix: discussing this with Diablo-D3 is a waste of time.
386 2011-03-12 02:25:15 <genjix> you could even use UDP
387 2011-03-12 02:25:23 <Diablo-D3> genjix: wrong layer.
388 2011-03-12 02:25:23 <genjix> timestamp + order + packet
389 2011-03-12 02:25:29 <luke-jr> &
390 2011-03-12 02:25:36 <luke-jr> genjix: UDP makes no guarantees you even get the packet
391 2011-03-12 02:25:40 <genjix> need no guarantee of sequence
392 2011-03-12 02:25:47 <genjix> i know
393 2011-03-12 02:25:48 <Diablo-D3> genjix: TCP/UDP -> application network protocol -> data serialization format.
394 2011-03-12 02:25:53 <luke-jr> genjix: I don't mean sequence.
395 2011-03-12 02:25:56 <Diablo-D3> genjix: its generally assumed we're using TCP.
396 2011-03-12 02:25:59 <luke-jr> genjix: I mean you might just NOT get it AT ALL
397 2011-03-12 02:26:07 <genjix> ok
398 2011-03-12 02:26:12 <Diablo-D3> genjix: we can use UDP only if our network protocol implements guaranteed UDP
399 2011-03-12 02:26:18 <genjix> i wasn't saying you should use UDP
400 2011-03-12 02:26:22 <Diablo-D3> and yes, there are such network protocols, its generally a waste
401 2011-03-12 02:26:30 <Diablo-D3> and implementing your own network protocol is generally retarded
402 2011-03-12 02:26:42 <genjix> not always, i can give a counter example
403 2011-03-12 02:26:59 <Diablo-D3> I said generally.
404 2011-03-12 02:27:07 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin's use of http is pretty much right on target for http.
405 2011-03-12 02:27:15 <genjix> yep. nice and simple.
406 2011-03-12 02:27:32 <Diablo-D3> theres no reason to switch out of the http family of network protocols
407 2011-03-12 02:27:47 <Diablo-D3> the problem is how we're formulating requests.
408 2011-03-12 02:28:04 <Diablo-D3> SOAP, ie, RPC, has been basically shunned my current generation enterprise coders because its fucking retarded
409 2011-03-12 02:28:07 <Diablo-D3> you have a url, use it.
410 2011-03-12 02:29:12 <Diablo-D3> json-rpc = http://url/ -> { method: "foo" } -> { error: "you suck" }
411 2011-03-12 02:29:58 <Diablo-D3> json rest = http://url/foo -> no body because its a get request -> http 4xx error code, msg body plain text "you suck"
412 2011-03-12 02:30:20 <Diablo-D3> json-rpc inherently doesnt play towards http's strenghts
413 2011-03-12 02:30:26 <Diablo-D3> thats the only big issue with it
414 2011-03-12 02:30:51 <Diablo-D3> http already does everything you need in a uni-directional protocol
415 2011-03-12 02:31:15 <Diablo-D3> and even if luke-jr gets his way with protobuf, a rest api still works the same way.
416 2011-03-12 02:31:49 <Diablo-D3> http happily will send anything a mime-type can describe.
417 2011-03-12 02:32:00 <Diablo-D3> including unencoded binary
418 2011-03-12 02:32:50 <Diablo-D3> genjix: now, I suggest using json with rest because we already have all this json code that works fine
419 2011-03-12 02:33:31 <Diablo-D3> genjix: for any given bitcoin command, a comparable json rest api would output whats currently output as the result in the json rpc response
420 2011-03-12 02:34:04 <Diablo-D3> so instead of { "response": { "dongs" } } we just get { "dongs" }
421 2011-03-12 02:35:27 <genjix> ic
422 2011-03-12 02:35:37 <genjix> but isn't that problematic?
423 2011-03-12 02:36:02 <genjix> there are JSON-RPC libraries for most languages, but no JSON-REST APIs
424 2011-03-12 02:36:16 <genjix> although I do like REST
425 2011-03-12 02:36:51 <lfm> what? how do you have a library without an api?
426 2011-03-12 02:38:03 <genjix> the json-rpc lib for python is very easy to use.
427 2011-03-12 02:38:03 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: except that UNI-DIRECTIONAL IS THE PROBLEM
428 2011-03-12 02:41:26 <blarzong> gark
429 2011-03-12 02:43:09 <blarzong> whatsenew
430 2011-03-12 02:43:23 <blarzong> json is nice
431 2011-03-12 02:44:07 <Diablo-D3> genjix: huh?
432 2011-03-12 02:44:14 <Diablo-D3> genjix: you dont make a REST library
433 2011-03-12 02:44:19 <genjix> what about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrift_%28protocol%29 ?
434 2011-03-12 02:44:20 <Diablo-D3> genjix: its just the method of how you construct urls.
435 2011-03-12 02:44:33 <Diablo-D3> genjix: rest literally is using GET, PUT, and POST correctly in http.
436 2011-03-12 02:44:42 <Diablo-D3> with proper usage of urls.
437 2011-03-12 02:44:44 <mizerydearia> booo radiation in Japan http://www.businessinsider.com/fukushima-nuclear-plant-2011-3#ixzz1GJKHx9hB
438 2011-03-12 02:44:52 <Diablo-D3> and btw, most languages do NOT have a decent json-rpc lib
439 2011-03-12 02:45:01 <Diablo-D3> the correct way is to just do it yourself with a json lib
440 2011-03-12 02:45:06 <Diablo-D3> which is incredibly simple
441 2011-03-12 02:45:20 <Diablo-D3> genjix: thrift and protobuf are largely interchangable for what they do
442 2011-03-12 02:45:38 <Diablo-D3> genjix: they are java-centric (but impl for a shitload of language) object serializers.
443 2011-03-12 02:45:42 <Diablo-D3> they are not a network protocol
444 2011-03-12 02:45:50 <Diablo-D3> and its absolutely fucking overkill for what we're doing here.
445 2011-03-12 02:46:14 <mizerydearia> wow http://twitpic.com/48dazv
446 2011-03-12 02:47:11 <genjix> ic
447 2011-03-12 02:47:31 <Diablo-D3> the responses can be done entirely with maps, arrays, ints, and strings.
448 2011-03-12 02:47:34 <Diablo-D3> and lists.
449 2011-03-12 02:48:00 <Diablo-D3> (or whatever your language's equivs to these are)
450 2011-03-12 02:51:01 <nextnonce> Hi, new to bitcoin here.  What are my options for accepting payment at my website?
451 2011-03-12 02:51:18 <mizerydearia> will post more to http://japan.witcoin.com/p/393/2011-Sendai-earthquake-and-tsunami
452 2011-03-12 02:52:15 <Diablo-D3> genjix: I dont know why people think they need a json-rpc library though
453 2011-03-12 02:52:27 <lfm> nextnonce: is it for donations or is it a required payment
454 2011-03-12 02:52:31 <Diablo-D3> all you do is POST every single http response (no GET or PUT)
455 2011-03-12 02:52:41 <nextnonce> lfm: it's a required payment
456 2011-03-12 02:52:44 <Diablo-D3> and then construct the requests and read back the responses
457 2011-03-12 02:53:45 <Diablo-D3> the outer json for both is a Map<String, Object> (or, again, whatevers appropriate for your language)
458 2011-03-12 02:54:04 <Diablo-D3> request always has a method, params, and an id, the response always has a result, and error, or an id
459 2011-03-12 02:54:06 <lfm> nextnonce: not sure but you might wnat to check out the "button" that mybitcoin.com has made available.
460 2011-03-12 02:54:08 <Diablo-D3> s/or/and/
461 2011-03-12 02:54:51 <nextnonce> lfm: I've seen that.  Glad to hear you mention it.  Would you recommend mybitcoin?  What other options are there?
462 2011-03-12 02:55:21 <Diablo-D3> method is always a string, id is always a number (although some idiots do put strings there too), error is a string, params is always an array, result is always whatever the result is supposed to be.
463 2011-03-12 02:55:48 <genjix> and there you go. you've become maintainer of the python json-rpc api
464 2011-03-12 02:55:52 <genjix> :)
465 2011-03-12 02:55:56 <Diablo-D3> well like I said
466 2011-03-12 02:55:58 <Diablo-D3> this shit isnt hard
467 2011-03-12 02:56:08 <lfm> mybitcoin.com seems fine to me although I guess some people dont trust it (dunno why). I dont run a web site so I dont really know of any other options cept roll your own
468 2011-03-12 02:56:19 <Diablo-D3> I read the spec for json-rpc and busted the world's stupidest json-rpc impl in like 25 lines of java
469 2011-03-12 02:56:41 <Diablo-D3> take 1 http client impl, 1 json impl, and glue them together.
470 2011-03-12 02:57:41 <nextnonce> lfm: as for rolling my own, bitcoind doesn't run well on CentOS :(
471 2011-03-12 02:59:07 <genjix> nextnonce: see the wiki
472 2011-03-12 02:59:13 <genjix> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_%28JSON-RPC%29#Python
473 2011-03-12 02:59:41 <lfm> nextnonce: well if bitcoin(d) doent run for you I would think mybitcoin would be a good option. mtgox.com is another way to have an account without need for bitcoin(d) and I think mtgox has some sort of api you can roll your own for
474 2011-03-12 03:00:11 <Diablo-D3> genjix: but yeah, I dont like pythin
475 2011-03-12 03:00:18 <Diablo-D3> I think its a disgusting little language
476 2011-03-12 03:00:25 <genjix> :(
477 2011-03-12 03:00:30 <nextnonce> lfm: didn't know mtgox had an API, v. cool
478 2011-03-12 03:00:31 <genjix> it's the best language
479 2011-03-12 03:01:10 <nextnonce> genjix: to use that, I first have to get bitcoind running right?
480 2011-03-12 03:01:27 <genjix> yeah
481 2011-03-12 03:02:40 <blarzong> selena gomez
482 2011-03-12 03:03:46 <Diablo-D3> blarzong: dude, she looks 12.
483 2011-03-12 03:05:50 <luke-jr> I also hate Python fwiw
484 2011-03-12 03:06:38 <genjix> perl/python is kind of like vim
485 2011-03-12 03:06:41 <genjix> love or hate it
486 2011-03-12 03:08:07 <jrabbit> lol
487 2011-03-12 03:08:40 <x6763> i used to love python
488 2011-03-12 03:08:54 <mizerydearia> Is there anyone here that lives in Japan?
489 2011-03-12 03:09:17 <mizerydearia> MagicalTux?
490 2011-03-12 03:09:22 <x6763> but eventually i found clojure
491 2011-03-12 03:09:35 <jrabbit> clojure is fucking ugly
492 2011-03-12 03:09:39 <x6763> lol
493 2011-03-12 03:09:41 <jrabbit> worst lisp IO've ever seen
494 2011-03-12 03:13:39 <agorist> blarzong, if bitcoins crashes because your cartel theory, another cryptocurrency will takeover without any chances for a cartel to form
495 2011-03-12 03:13:59 <agorist> if bitcoin network crashes because of your cartel theory*
496 2011-03-12 03:15:05 <noagendamarket> and how is that going to be accomplished ?
497 2011-03-12 03:15:11 <agorist> what is
498 2011-03-12 03:15:29 <noagendamarket> stopping "cartels"
499 2011-03-12 03:15:41 <agorist> i dunno ask blarzong
500 2011-03-12 03:15:45 <noagendamarket> whos going to point the guns :)
501 2011-03-12 03:16:02 <jrabbit> more cartels
502 2011-03-12 03:16:09 <jrabbit> CARTELS ALL THE WAY DOWN
503 2011-03-12 03:16:51 <x6763> i think the word "cartel" has been used wrong in these discussions with blarzong...it's been used as nothing more than a synonym for "partnership" or "corporation" or "business"...i think his problem is just that there's possibly a very small number of people with a large number of bitcoins, potentially "cornerning the market"
504 2011-03-12 03:17:07 <agorist> yes
505 2011-03-12 03:17:17 <agorist> blarzong claims 90%+ of btcs are owned by a single few, which make sense
506 2011-03-12 03:17:28 <x6763> which to me isn't a much of a concern at all
507 2011-03-12 03:17:51 <jrabbit> well there are quite a few people who have been around for a whiel that have quite a few hanging around but thats only a threat to the cureent price
508 2011-03-12 03:17:55 <jrabbit> not the system itself
509 2011-03-12 03:18:18 <validus> given how long that bitcoins are going to be going for. techincally they dont hold 90%
510 2011-03-12 03:18:18 <x6763> and if they dump them on the market, that means i can buy them cheap!
511 2011-03-12 03:18:46 <agorist> blarzong argues that dumping lots of btcs on the market will crash it
512 2011-03-12 03:18:59 <agorist> because btcs compared to fiat will go down in price
513 2011-03-12 03:19:06 <x6763> i don't think it would crash...it would certaily be highly volatile
514 2011-03-12 03:19:23 <x6763> (crash as in permanently disable the system)
515 2011-03-12 03:19:35 <FellowTraveler> Just cause the price goes down doesn't disable the system
516 2011-03-12 03:19:38 <FellowTraveler> that's just a buying opportunity
517 2011-03-12 03:19:50 <x6763> but i suspect it would stabilize again
518 2011-03-12 03:20:03 <FellowTraveler> as long as people are using it more for a currency than as a store of value, then it's not like anyone will lose their life's savings
519 2011-03-12 03:20:13 <x6763> yep
520 2011-03-12 03:20:21 <noagendamarket> the lower the price is the more people can buy btc
521 2011-03-12 03:20:31 <noagendamarket> so its all relative
522 2011-03-12 03:20:35 <x6763> yep
523 2011-03-12 03:20:43 <noagendamarket> rather than mining they buy
524 2011-03-12 03:24:13 <x6763> for someone to dump say 2 million bitcoins onto the market right now would practically be an act of charity, since they'd only sell a few at close to the current market price...the rest would have to be sold dirt cheap, so the seller would gain very little, while the buyers would gain a lot
525 2011-03-12 03:24:45 <agorist> for sure, theyd have to wait for 1USD = 0.1BTC or something
526 2011-03-12 03:24:59 <agorist> to be it a good deal for them
527 2011-03-12 03:25:03 <x6763> in the future when bitcoin is worth more, the only difference in the situation would be nominal
528 2011-03-12 03:25:16 <AAA_awright> FellowTraveler: A currency IS supposed to be a good store of value
529 2011-03-12 03:25:47 <jrabbit> whats intresting is if BTC will be used as a baseline for another more violatile currency
530 2011-03-12 03:25:53 <FellowTraveler> AAA_awright I think only history can prove such a thing.
531 2011-03-12 03:26:08 <AAA_awright> IF it were that it weren't a good store of value, it would be due to the fact that there's lots of risk in the economy, maybe it's a primitive economy, or prone to natural disaster
532 2011-03-12 03:26:29 <FellowTraveler> dirt isn't a good store of value, and dirt doesn't imply risk in the economy.
533 2011-03-12 03:26:52 <jrabbit> it is if your economy is mud based
534 2011-03-12 03:27:02 <AAA_awright> FellowTraveler: That's why BitCoins aren't presently a good money, because it's way more risky than the economy at large is
535 2011-03-12 03:27:02 <x6763> oh i was thinking that FellowTraveler meant as long as people were actually trading bitcoins for goods instead of everyone using bitcoins only as a store of value and nothing more
536 2011-03-12 03:27:03 <jrabbit> Anyone?
537 2011-03-12 03:27:06 <lfm> land prices should be a good baseline
538 2011-03-12 03:27:16 <FellowTraveler> history has not produced any mud-based currencies that lasted for more than a few decades, tops.
539 2011-03-12 03:27:24 <FellowTraveler> Even fiat currencies last longer than mud based currencies.
540 2011-03-12 03:27:34 <jrabbit> FellowTraveler: its a dilbert refrence
541 2011-03-12 03:27:50 <lfm> FellowTraveler: if by mud you mean land, thats not so bad
542 2011-03-12 03:28:11 <genjix> what's the usual format for BTC exchange rates?
543 2011-03-12 03:28:16 <genjix> is it USD / BTC?
544 2011-03-12 03:28:28 <AAA_awright> Now that leaves have been designated as the official currency, we begin a massive defoliation effort to counter the massive increase in inflation
545 2011-03-12 03:28:33 <FellowTraveler> My interest in Bitcoin is as a medium of exchange that cannot be confiscated.  As long as it is freely convertible on markets to gold and other currencies, Bitcoin doesn't HAVE to be a store of value.
546 2011-03-12 03:28:54 <FellowTraveler> it's liquidity and convertibility and non-confiscatability is value enough for it to trade on markets.
547 2011-03-12 03:29:13 <AAA_awright> FellowTraveler: It has to store value somewhat well, and that it does do, but not for long term I wouldn't
548 2011-03-12 03:29:16 <FellowTraveler> the future world will probably store in gold and spend in bitcoins or some combination  it's a mistake to compare these things against each other when they will all be working together.
549 2011-03-12 03:29:25 <AAA_awright> If it didn't store value well at all there would be no point in exchanging with it
550 2011-03-12 03:29:39 <FellowTraveler> well let's give a few thousand years then and see if it works.
551 2011-03-12 03:29:44 <FellowTraveler> then we can start exchanging with it.
552 2011-03-12 03:30:06 <jrabbit> AAA_awright: XDR doesn't "store value" at all and is used for exchanges :P
553 2011-03-12 03:30:06 <x6763> why would anyone accept a bitcoin if it didn't have (a store of) value?
554 2011-03-12 03:30:31 <AAA_awright> x6763: Exactly my point
555 2011-03-12 03:30:32 <jrabbit> that is the right name for the worldbank spedical withdraw thing right?
556 2011-03-12 03:30:44 <lfm> yup I think money was inveted to store value
557 2011-03-12 03:30:47 <FellowTraveler> look at silk road market  why are they using bitcoin there instead of e-gold
558 2011-03-12 03:30:48 <x6763> the fact that someone is willing to accept a bitcoin means that it does have a store of value...they expect to be able to buy something with it later
559 2011-03-12 03:31:09 <FellowTraveler> because bitcoin is p2p/nonconfiscatable.  That IS its value.
560 2011-03-12 03:31:13 <FellowTraveler> it actually adds value.
561 2011-03-12 03:31:38 <FellowTraveler> So even if ALL VALUE isn't stored there, it can absorb enough that people can trade into dollars and into rubles and onto drug markets and wherever they want, and in and out again.
562 2011-03-12 03:31:41 <x6763> FellowTraveler: those qualities are among the many different qualities that many people value, yes
563 2011-03-12 03:31:46 <lfm> even if it is only for a small time (microsecond) money stores value
564 2011-03-12 03:31:47 <AAA_awright> Good monies (1) store value and don't spoil, (2) are divisible, (3) are homogeneous, (4) have a broad use (5) are easy to store or otherwise generally have a very high value concentrataion per mass compared to alternatives
565 2011-03-12 03:31:48 <FellowTraveler> it's the market aspect, bitcoin traded against OTHER THINGS that I think gives it its real value.
566 2011-03-12 03:32:04 <AAA_awright> Like, say, gold.
567 2011-03-12 03:32:11 <FellowTraveler> yes WWW_awright but we are moving into a time where those qualities will be provided by interconnecting systems, each which solves different problems.
568 2011-03-12 03:32:24 <AAA_awright> FellowTraveler: You know how to tab-complete right?
569 2011-03-12 03:32:27 <FellowTraveler> you won't have all of it in a single thing (like bitcoin) but rather in an ecosystem that bitcoin plays a part in.
570 2011-03-12 03:33:07 <FellowTraveler> you mean unix command line?
571 2011-03-12 03:33:51 <x6763> i'm thinking this is a semantic argument at this point....i think FellowTraveler actually sees it very much like we do, but is explaining it differently (maybe hasn't read rothbard or mises?)
572 2011-03-12 03:35:07 <FellowTraveler> All I'm saying is that bitcoin doesn't have to be a "thousands of years" store of value in order to HAVE value as a currency.
573 2011-03-12 03:35:32 <FellowTraveler> it doesn't have to solve ALL the problems of what we need in a money  just some of them, in order to be important/incorporated.
574 2011-03-12 03:35:43 <FellowTraveler> like we want untraceable money, and bitcoin cannot do that alone
575 2011-03-12 03:35:59 <FellowTraveler> but I'm sure markets like silk road will add anonymizing layer to their bitcoin when they get caught the first time.
576 2011-03-12 03:37:22 <FellowTraveler> it's an ecosystem, with transaction servers (like Loom), issuers (like all the issuers using Loom now), p2p commodity (bitcoin), p2p transfers (bitcoin), p2p currency conversion (ripple), untraceable layers (OT), exchangers (in the various jurisdictions)
577 2011-03-12 03:37:32 <FellowTraveler> it's all of that working together that gives you the full money functionality.
578 2011-03-12 03:37:47 <FellowTraveler> and gold will also play a part I'm sure as well as any other thing of value
579 2011-03-12 03:38:00 <FellowTraveler> All things of value will be traded online and as long as bitcoin is a source of value it will be traded against them on markets.
580 2011-03-12 03:38:08 <FellowTraveler> And it's that convertibility that gives bitcoin some of its value.
581 2011-03-12 03:39:05 <FellowTraveler> also anonymous networks have a big part to play and in fact I think the currencies and the networks will grow into one entity.
582 2011-03-12 03:39:15 <FellowTraveler> Because untraceable cash solves problems of resource allocation on anonymous networks and mesh networks.
583 2011-03-12 03:39:44 <FellowTraveler> I'm not here because I see Bitcoin as a be-all-end-all, but because I see it as solving certain specific vital problems in the overall big picture.
584 2011-03-12 03:40:21 <FellowTraveler> I also see community currencies in a similar way, since they represent, like Bitcoin, a way to have backing value that cannot be confiscated.
585 2011-03-12 03:40:41 <FellowTraveler> Such CCs could later be added to a basket currency on OT, or traded against each other on markets, and also against bitcoin.
586 2011-03-12 03:41:11 <FellowTraveler> Right now you can buy bitcoins, use them to buy drugs, and then the seller can convert them back onto a Visa Card.
587 2011-03-12 03:41:18 <FellowTraveler> If that happened with GoldMoney, they would already be shut down.
588 2011-03-12 03:41:28 <FellowTraveler> Therefore you can already see the value of Bitcoin emerging
589 2011-03-12 03:41:45 <FellowTraveler> it's non-confiscatability, it's ability not to be shut down
590 2011-03-12 03:42:00 <FellowTraveler> just THAT is enough  other systems will sprout up and integrate with bitcoin to solve other problems
591 2011-03-12 03:42:15 <FellowTraveler> but that is a key issue that bitcoin solves and as long as it's convertible, it doesn't even have to do anything else to succed.
592 2011-03-12 03:42:23 <FellowTraveler> Anyway just my thoughts, take it as you will.
593 2011-03-12 03:42:35 <FellowTraveler> But I definitely see where my own software and bitcoin will be integrated at some point soon.
594 2011-03-12 03:46:57 <mizerydearia> more pictures needed!  http://witcoin.com/
595 2011-03-12 03:47:04 <mizerydearia> s/pictures/thumbnails/
596 2011-03-12 03:48:53 <agorist> what's the avarage khash/s one can get from generating coins through the bitcoin client
597 2011-03-12 03:49:11 <validus> it would all depend on your cpu speed
598 2011-03-12 03:49:15 <agorist> with just a pentium3 and an average nvdiia
599 2011-03-12 03:49:23 <validus> but unless your doing gpu its going to take a long while
600 2011-03-12 03:49:29 <validus> not very good
601 2011-03-12 03:49:41 <agorist> it tells me im doing 653 khash/s
602 2011-03-12 03:49:47 <validus> thats possible
603 2011-03-12 03:49:56 <validus> ;;bc,gen 653
604 2011-03-12 03:49:57 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 653 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 0.00862018245665 BTC per day and 0.000359174269027 BTC per hour.
605 2011-03-12 03:50:05 <validus> ;;bc,calc 653
606 2011-03-12 03:50:11 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 653 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 15 years, 46 weeks, 3 days, 8 hours, 11 minutes, and 25 seconds
607 2011-03-12 03:50:20 <agorist> LOL
608 2011-03-12 03:50:22 <validus> in 15 years if your the first to submit the block you might get 50 btc
609 2011-03-12 03:50:26 <validus> :P
610 2011-03-12 03:50:34 <validus> ati pwns for mining ill give ati that
611 2011-03-12 03:50:35 <x6763> assuming the difficulty doesn't increase in the next 15 years
612 2011-03-12 03:50:36 <x6763> lol
613 2011-03-12 03:51:43 <agorist> ;;bc,gen 653000
614 2011-03-12 03:51:44 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 653000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 8.62018245665 BTC per day and 0.359174269027 BTC per hour.
615 2011-03-12 03:51:53 <agorist> ;;bc,calc 653000
616 2011-03-12 03:52:09 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 653000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 5 days, 19 hours, 12 minutes, and 29 seconds
617 2011-03-12 03:52:20 <x6763> gribble does *k*hps, not hps
618 2011-03-12 03:53:52 <genjix> jgarzik: are you still handing out a bounty for a free software exchange? http://fishysnax.com/intersango/
619 2011-03-12 03:54:02 <genjix> http://gitorious.org/intersango/master/trees/master <- source code
620 2011-03-12 03:55:23 <genjix> anyone want to donate me 1 BTC for testing? the faucet isn't working for me... i have 0 btc
621 2011-03-12 03:55:43 <agorist> lol you have no btc
622 2011-03-12 03:56:48 <genjix> 1Mftmn6ZNAwWFr5wxn3xKpDZwyBMu4QbHc
623 2011-03-12 03:57:00 <genjix> yeah my laptop broke... i needed a new one :p
624 2011-03-12 03:57:02 <luke-jr> agorist: bc,gen is useless for the builtin miner
625 2011-03-12 03:57:12 <agorist> oh
626 2011-03-12 03:57:26 <luke-jr> genjix: copy the wallet off your HD
627 2011-03-12 03:57:28 <luke-jr> or backup
628 2011-03-12 03:57:43 <genjix> no i spent all my btc to pay for it :p
629 2011-03-12 03:57:48 <luke-jr> o
630 2011-03-12 03:57:54 <luke-jr> genjix: I just sent u 50 TBC ;)
631 2011-03-12 03:58:08 <luke-jr> [23:57:53] <ljrbot> TX 541fe939fb4f0a73f707b443c0590174a08bd4a990e1c1b0741cd768473c1896: 1Mftmn6ZNAwWFr5wxn3xKpDZwyBMu4QbHc 50 TBC, 16AsKzoQJT1AJWmuDr3WnwSLas1YeNxop7 0.0175712 BTC
632 2011-03-12 03:58:11 <genjix> thanks :) i will pay you back once i get more
633 2011-03-12 03:58:31 <genjix> (just need it for testing)
634 2011-03-12 03:59:38 <agorist> throwing btcs just like that eh
635 2011-03-12 04:00:52 <luke-jr> agorist: no, that was TBCs
636 2011-03-12 04:02:09 <agorist> whats tbc
637 2011-03-12 04:02:45 <Cusipzzz> god hates tbc
638 2011-03-12 04:05:07 <agorist> aah 1tbc = 0.00065536btc
639 2011-03-12 04:05:28 <agorist> why not just youse SI
640 2011-03-12 04:05:46 <agorist> use
641 2011-03-12 04:05:58 <luke-jr> agorist: cuz SI sucks
642 2011-03-12 04:06:06 <luke-jr> SI was the worst thing anyone ever thought of
643 2011-03-12 04:06:14 <agorist> haha why
644 2011-03-12 04:06:18 <luke-jr> it's decimal
645 2011-03-12 04:06:28 <agorist> yea ..
646 2011-03-12 04:06:48 <lfm> luke thinks 16 is more "natural" than 10
647 2011-03-12 04:07:03 <agorist> but its not!
648 2011-03-12 04:07:06 <jrabbit> luke-jr: do you have 16 toes?
649 2011-03-12 04:07:11 <agorist> haha
650 2011-03-12 04:07:45 <jrabbit> thoguh you can coutn very high on your joints of you hand
651 2011-03-12 04:08:37 <x6763> you can also count in binary with your fingers, though certain numbers may be offensive to others
652 2011-03-12 04:08:43 <genjix> wtf 16 is a much better base than 10
653 2011-03-12 04:09:05 <genjix> it's just luck we use decimal
654 2011-03-12 04:09:57 <luke-jr> agorist: it is
655 2011-03-12 04:10:09 <genjix> base 16:  100 / 8 = 50
656 2011-03-12 04:10:13 <luke-jr> decimal is one of the worst possible bases
657 2011-03-12 04:10:24 <genjix> wait :p
658 2011-03-12 04:10:29 <luke-jr> genjix: 20
659 2011-03-12 04:10:35 <genjix> yeah that
660 2011-03-12 04:10:59 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Pythogras disagrees
661 2011-03-12 04:11:23 <genjix> also: pi is wrong
662 2011-03-12 04:11:30 <genjix> the constant is half the value it should be.
663 2011-03-12 04:11:31 <luke-jr> read page 4 of http://www.dozenal.org/archive/DuodecimalBulletinIssue382-web.pdf
664 2011-03-12 04:11:40 <luke-jr> it's not pro-tonal, but it explains things a bit
665 2011-03-12 04:11:49 <luke-jr> genjix: ??
666 2011-03-12 04:12:09 <genjix> haha you know!
667 2011-03-12 04:12:13 <genjix> http://tauday.com/
668 2011-03-12 04:12:19 <jrabbit> Pythagoras is a cult leader.
669 2011-03-12 04:12:34 <AAA_awright> It's just luck. Never mind base 10 was invented concurrently by many, many cultures.
670 2011-03-12 04:12:48 <AAA_awright> That's why it's lucky.
671 2011-03-12 04:12:59 <genjix> no it wasn't.
672 2011-03-12 04:13:08 <AAA_awright> genjix: And/or base 60
673 2011-03-12 04:13:19 <genjix> and base 16 and 36
674 2011-03-12 04:13:35 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: read the pdf
675 2011-03-12 04:13:49 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: base 10 was invented for counting, but base 12 was always invented for units
676 2011-03-12 04:13:52 <luke-jr> luck for 12?
677 2011-03-12 04:13:54 <genjix> and 20
678 2011-03-12 04:14:06 <genjix> babylonians used base 60
679 2011-03-12 04:14:22 <luke-jr> I phrased that wrong
680 2011-03-12 04:14:29 <genjix> base 27 too :p
681 2011-03-12 04:14:34 <genjix> heh
682 2011-03-12 04:14:42 <luke-jr> base 12 wasn't always used for units, but every culture inevitably came up with it for units somewhere
683 2011-03-12 04:15:03 <luke-jr> because base 12 is natural for division in general
684 2011-03-12 04:16:07 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, tell that to the SI idiots
685 2011-03-12 04:16:18 <phantomcircuit> STUPID AMERICUNTS AND THEIR IMPERIAL SYSTEM
686 2011-03-12 04:16:34 <AAA_awright> IT'S [JUST] A FUNNY NUMBER
687 2011-03-12 04:16:37 <genjix> glad you're admitting the truth.
688 2011-03-12 04:16:46 <agorist> so why base 16 when base 12 is for units
689 2011-03-12 04:16:54 <genjix> first step to recovery phantomcircuit
690 2011-03-12 04:16:58 <AAA_awright> What do we mean my "units" anyways
691 2011-03-12 04:17:03 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: SI has only ever been adopted by force/threat of law
692 2011-03-12 04:17:06 <AAA_awright> Units are numberless
693 2011-03-12 04:17:21 <AAA_awright> Unless defined in terms of another unit
694 2011-03-12 04:17:23 <luke-jr> agorist: tonal is infinitely divisible by 2, and easily converted to binary
695 2011-03-12 04:17:27 <genjix> not necessarily AAA_awright
696 2011-03-12 04:17:38 <genjix> the mole for instance
697 2011-03-12 04:17:39 <luke-jr> agorist: both tonal and dozenal have strengths, I'm torn between them atm
698 2011-03-12 04:17:55 <AAA_awright> genjix: The mole is unitless
699 2011-03-12 04:18:08 <genjix> the mole is a unit
700 2011-03-12 04:18:16 <AAA_awright> It's a numerical constant like MiB or k
701 2011-03-12 04:18:17 <genjix> it's just a number though
702 2011-03-12 04:18:19 <AAA_awright> er, Mi
703 2011-03-12 04:18:29 <genjix> yeah but you use it as a unit
704 2011-03-12 04:18:33 <AAA_awright> MiB is a unit and a constant multiplied together
705 2011-03-12 04:18:37 <genjix> i have 10 moles of carbon-12
706 2011-03-12 04:19:12 <genjix> ok?
707 2011-03-12 04:19:26 <AAA_awright> genjix: Which is a specific number of carbon-12 elementary particles
708 2011-03-12 04:19:51 <genjix> i was raised on SI prefixes... i know my weight and everything in metric.
709 2011-03-12 04:20:00 <genjix> imperial to me is highly confusing and illogical
710 2011-03-12 04:20:08 <genjix> metric is natural.
711 2011-03-12 04:20:34 <genjix> i know one set of prefixes for all the units in daily life :p
712 2011-03-12 04:20:37 <AAA_awright> Who's arguing in favor of imperial?
713 2011-03-12 04:20:47 <genjix> phantomcircuit and luke-jr
714 2011-03-12 04:20:49 <AAA_awright> Except for the fact it's economical in many cases
715 2011-03-12 04:21:50 <lfm> genjix: decimal is natural for humans that are immersed in decimal. It may not be natural for other beings (dolphins, elephantsm little green men, luke_jr)
716 2011-03-12 04:22:15 <AAA_awright> lfm: Place value systems are unnatural period
717 2011-03-12 04:26:45 <luke-jr> genjix: not quite
718 2011-03-12 04:27:38 <luke-jr> genjix: is binary so confusing? :P
719 2011-03-12 04:30:24 <luke-jr> genjix: 1 tun = 2 butt = 4 hogshead = 8 barrel = 16 cask = 32 coomb = 64 strike = 128 bushel = 256 kenning = 512 peck = 1024 gallon = 2048 pottle = 4096 quart = 8192 pint = 16384 cup = 32768 gill = 65536 jack = 131072 pony = 262144 mouthful
720 2011-03-12 04:30:37 <luke-jr> 'course that'd look MUCH nicer in tonal
721 2011-03-12 04:31:10 <dirtyfilthy> wtf, imperial is insane, chains in the furlong etc
722 2011-03-12 04:31:26 <luke-jr> genjix: 1 tun = 2 butt = 4 hogshead = 8 barrel = 10 cask = 20 coomb = 40 strike = 80 bushel = 100 kenning = 200 peck = 400 gallon = 800 pottle = 1000 quart = 2000 pint = 4000 cup = 8000 gill = 1,0000 jack = 2,0000 pony = 4,0000 mouthful
723 2011-03-12 04:32:41 <genjix> you know the reality is that people only use feet, yards, inches .etc
724 2011-03-12 04:32:55 <luke-jr> genjix: where? :P
725 2011-03-12 04:33:21 <genjix> and they're based off things like the length of a kings thumb or something
726 2011-03-12 04:33:34 <luke-jr> genjix: vaguely. feet/inches is a dozenal unit
727 2011-03-12 04:33:39 <luke-jr> s/unit/relation
728 2011-03-12 04:37:01 <phantomcircuit> lol the news is so ridiculous
729 2011-03-12 04:37:19 <luke-jr> ?
730 2011-03-12 04:37:23 <phantomcircuit> while they're describing the nuclear power plant problems in japan they're showing a fuel dump burning
731 2011-03-12 04:37:29 <phantomcircuit> implying they're the same thing
732 2011-03-12 04:37:38 <luke-jr> &
733 2011-03-12 04:38:16 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, iknorite
734 2011-03-12 04:38:54 <luke-jr> genjix: poke
735 2011-03-12 04:39:29 <luke-jr> hmm, didn't work
736 2011-03-12 04:39:31 <luke-jr> genjix: STAB
737 2011-03-12 04:40:45 <genjix> retort
738 2011-03-12 04:41:35 <luke-jr> genjix: can I merge tonal branch yet
739 2011-03-12 04:43:50 <genjix> go ahead
740 2011-03-12 04:45:17 <luke-jr> k, done
741 2011-03-12 04:45:22 <luke-jr> git lol looks funny now
742 2011-03-12 04:47:13 <genjix> and so it has begun http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4398.0
743 2011-03-12 04:47:20 <genjix> lol
744 2011-03-12 04:47:40 <genjix> such bad grammer
745 2011-03-12 04:50:20 <agorist> any bitcoin module for oscommerce available ?
746 2011-03-12 04:51:29 <luke-jr> LOL
747 2011-03-12 04:51:40 <agorist> lol?
748 2011-03-12 04:53:23 <genjix> agorist: see my latest 2 posts http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4086.20
749 2011-03-12 04:53:52 <genjix> for how to properly integrate bitcoin.
750 2011-03-12 04:54:22 <luke-jr> genjix: FYI, that code is useless for Spesmilo :P
751 2011-03-12 04:54:42 <phantomcircuit> N/A
752 2011-03-12 04:54:44 <phantomcircuit> lol
753 2011-03-12 04:54:59 <phantomcircuit> i like the merging of data and code
754 2011-03-12 04:55:02 <genjix> luke-jr: you mean the branch or the php?
755 2011-03-12 04:55:18 <luke-jr> genjix: teh code you posted there
756 2011-03-12 04:56:41 <mizerydearia> Diablo-D3, remember this issue?  http://meta.witcoin.com/p/348/Transactions---float-conversion-issue#r-733  -- It is not documented a bit and maybe this issue that sgornick has experienced will help to FINALLY? establish fixing it.
757 2011-03-12 04:57:44 <genjix> mizerydearia: lol http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4086.20
758 2011-03-12 04:57:49 <genjix> see last post i just made
759 2011-03-12 04:57:58 <mizerydearia> ^_^
760 2011-03-12 04:58:02 <mizerydearia> it's a recurring issue
761 2011-03-12 04:58:08 <mizerydearia> I first brought it up like 9 months ago
762 2011-03-12 04:58:11 <genjix> i have a fix
763 2011-03-12 04:58:13 <mizerydearia> yay
764 2011-03-12 05:01:40 <luke-jr> wtf is with you people demanding strings?
765 2011-03-12 05:01:46 <luke-jr> that is just making it worse
766 2011-03-12 05:02:15 <luke-jr> int51+ is the only real solution, and can be used in the new protocol
767 2011-03-12 05:02:44 <genjix> mizerydearia: i updated the wiki https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_%28JSON-RPC%29#PHP
768 2011-03-12 05:02:45 <phantomcircuit> OP_PUSHDATA4
769 2011-03-12 05:02:46 <phantomcircuit> rofl
770 2011-03-12 05:02:55 <phantomcircuit> a 4GB stack?
771 2011-03-12 05:03:00 <agorist> genjix, I was referring to a ready-to-go install module
772 2011-03-12 05:03:06 <agorist> for oscommerce
773 2011-03-12 05:03:09 <genjix> oh ok
774 2011-03-12 05:03:16 <agorist> so its easy for mechants
775 2011-03-12 05:03:18 <agorist> merchants
776 2011-03-12 05:03:28 <agorist> to install it
777 2011-03-12 05:03:29 <agorist> and accept bitcoins
778 2011-03-12 05:03:31 <luke-jr> sigh
779 2011-03-12 05:03:33 <luke-jr> night
780 2011-03-12 05:04:05 <Diablo-D3> [12:56:41] <mizerydearia> Diablo-D3, remember this issue?  http://meta.witcoin.com/p/348/Transactions---float-conversion-issue#r-733  -- It is not documented a bit and maybe this issue that sgornick has experienced will help to FINALLY? establish fixing it.
781 2011-03-12 05:04:14 <Diablo-D3> yes, its called STOP USING FLOATS YOU IDIOT
782 2011-03-12 05:04:33 <Diablo-D3> its a fixed precision number. 8 places.
783 2011-03-12 05:04:35 <luke-jr> don't let the troll bite ;)
784 2011-03-12 05:05:13 <mizerydearia> Diablo-D3, uhhh, I have no control over it?  It's fault of http://json-rpc.org?
785 2011-03-12 05:05:15 <mizerydearia> How am I the idiot?
786 2011-03-12 05:05:21 <phantomcircuit> i like how people dont understand floating point operations
787 2011-03-12 05:05:22 <phantomcircuit> like
788 2011-03-12 05:05:23 <phantomcircuit> at all
789 2011-03-12 05:05:25 <Diablo-D3> mizerydearia: no, its satoshi
790 2011-03-12 05:05:32 <mizerydearia> mm
791 2011-03-12 05:05:35 <genjix> and it's the fault of json_decode
792 2011-03-12 05:05:38 <Diablo-D3> its not json's fault
793 2011-03-12 05:05:42 <Diablo-D3> you give it a float
794 2011-03-12 05:05:44 <Diablo-D3> it thinks its a float
795 2011-03-12 05:05:50 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: replacemetn for JSON-RPC if you want to help: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
796 2011-03-12 05:05:58 <genjix> yeah but php should have the option for better precision
797 2011-03-12 05:06:01 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: stop spamming that shit dude
798 2011-03-12 05:06:10 <Diablo-D3> genjix: no, because its illegal to use floats for money
799 2011-03-12 05:06:11 <genjix> mizerydearia: fix is documented here https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_%28JSON-RPC%29#PHP
800 2011-03-12 05:06:16 <Diablo-D3> there are actual laws against this
801 2011-03-12 05:06:27 <luke-jr> genjix: workaround, not fix
802 2011-03-12 05:06:29 <luke-jr> fix is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
803 2011-03-12 05:06:30 <genjix> Diablo-D3: right, but python json has a parameter like parse_float=decimal.Decimal
804 2011-03-12 05:06:34 <Diablo-D3> thank God Bitcoin isnt money
805 2011-03-12 05:06:39 <Diablo-D3> genjix: but thats still wrong.
806 2011-03-12 05:06:39 <genjix> php should have one too
807 2011-03-12 05:06:41 <Diablo-D3> its an int.
808 2011-03-12 05:06:53 <genjix> i agree
809 2011-03-12 05:07:01 <agorist> lol diablo why do you say that
810 2011-03-12 05:07:06 <Diablo-D3> agorist: fixed point.
811 2011-03-12 05:07:10 <Diablo-D3> a very exact value.
812 2011-03-12 05:07:14 <luke-jr> agorist: because it is an int
813 2011-03-12 05:07:36 <luke-jr> agorist: your user interfaces just show the int shifted 8 decimal places to the right
814 2011-03-12 05:07:41 <Diablo-D3> yeah what luke said
815 2011-03-12 05:07:56 <agorist> ok so
816 2011-03-12 05:08:13 <mizerydearia> So 1 BTC will be "100000000"
817 2011-03-12 05:08:15 <luke-jr> agorist: 0.00000001 BTC is *really* a flat 1 unit
818 2011-03-12 05:08:17 <mizerydearia> Why not "1.00000000" ?
819 2011-03-12 05:08:26 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: because it's a number, not a string
820 2011-03-12 05:08:35 <luke-jr> and it's not 1, it's 100000000
821 2011-03-12 05:08:39 <mizerydearia> gmp and bcmath can handle strings npz
822 2011-03-12 05:08:46 <Diablo-D3> but you're still doing it wrong
823 2011-03-12 05:08:47 <luke-jr> irrelevant
824 2011-03-12 05:08:48 <Diablo-D3> its not a float.
825 2011-03-12 05:08:54 <genjix> mizerydearia: gmp cannot handle decimals
826 2011-03-12 05:08:56 <genjix> only ints
827 2011-03-12 05:08:58 <Diablo-D3> its a fixed point representation
828 2011-03-12 05:09:13 <Diablo-D3> that means, internally, its an integer somewhere
829 2011-03-12 05:09:21 <mizerydearia> mm
830 2011-03-12 05:09:28 <Diablo-D3> it's units just represent fractions of a whole int.
831 2011-03-12 05:09:40 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: how humans look at bitcoins is not always BTC either
832 2011-03-12 05:10:00 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: a few of us use TBC. I'm trying to encourage the Dozenal people to adopt it too
833 2011-03-12 05:10:06 <Diablo-D3> TBC?
834 2011-03-12 05:10:20 <phantomcircuit> OP_RETURN
835 2011-03-12 05:10:22 <phantomcircuit> the fuck
836 2011-03-12 05:10:23 <luke-jr> and in some years, even Decimal users will need to move to mBTC or uBTC
837 2011-03-12 05:10:30 <Diablo-D3> uBTC :D
838 2011-03-12 05:10:33 <agorist> its illegal to use exact values for money ?
839 2011-03-12 05:10:35 <Diablo-D3> thats the best term I ever made up
840 2011-03-12 05:10:38 <genjix> phantomcircuit: are you learning the script?
841 2011-03-12 05:10:41 <Diablo-D3> agorist: its illegal to use floats.
842 2011-03-12 05:10:46 <Diablo-D3> agorist: floats are inexact numbers.
843 2011-03-12 05:11:00 <Diablo-D3> 1.0 isnt 1.0
844 2011-03-12 05:11:01 <phantomcircuit> genjix, yeah, this makes absolutely no sense, at all
845 2011-03-12 05:11:04 <Diablo-D3> its 0.999999999999999999999chucknorris
846 2011-03-12 05:11:06 <Diablo-D3> or some shit
847 2011-03-12 05:11:15 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: 1.0 is 1.0
848 2011-03-12 05:11:17 <luke-jr> just not 0.1
849 2011-03-12 05:11:19 <validus> lol chucknorris
850 2011-03-12 05:11:29 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: I was making joke :<
851 2011-03-12 05:11:52 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: you failed
852 2011-03-12 05:12:07 <luke-jr> it has to be funnier amid your trolling
853 2011-03-12 05:12:19 <agorist> i dont see whats the issue..
854 2011-03-12 05:12:39 <Diablo-D3> agorist: the issue is we have an exact value and we're downgrading it to an inexact value
855 2011-03-12 05:12:41 <luke-jr> agorist: the issue is that computers can't handle 0.1
856 2011-03-12 05:12:58 <luke-jr> agorist: and shouldn't be expected to in this case anyway
857 2011-03-12 05:13:12 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, sure they can
858 2011-03-12 05:13:16 <luke-jr> but it's an issue with a solution. so not really worth beating around the bush on
859 2011-03-12 05:13:22 <phantomcircuit> just not with floating point
860 2011-03-12 05:13:28 <Diablo-D3> its a fixed point representation, its a bug to have it in any other representation
861 2011-03-12 05:13:37 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: tell me one CPU that supports "Decimal"
862 2011-03-12 05:13:52 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: every language that has a Decimal type, emulates it with integers
863 2011-03-12 05:14:07 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, i said nothing about being able to do so with individual cpu ops
864 2011-03-12 05:14:40 <luke-jr> also, the Decimal type in Python is also floatingpoint
865 2011-03-12 05:14:44 <Diablo-D3> you mean Decimal as in BigFloat?
866 2011-03-12 05:14:48 <luke-jr> it just isn't a *binary* floating point
867 2011-03-12 05:15:05 <Diablo-D3> nope Decimal == float
868 2011-03-12 05:15:09 <Diablo-D3> in python
869 2011-03-12 05:15:09 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: no
870 2011-03-12 05:15:14 <Diablo-D3> or some other gay shit
871 2011-03-12 05:15:17 <Diablo-D3> this is why I hate python
872 2011-03-12 05:15:21 <Diablo-D3> it cant use industry standard terms
873 2011-03-12 05:15:31 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: Decimal is 2 integers. one is the raw number, the other is a shift
874 2011-03-12 05:15:44 <luke-jr> but unlike normal binary FPs, the shift works in decimal digits, not binary
875 2011-03-12 05:15:59 <luke-jr> so it converts the # to decimal first, then moves the decimal point over
876 2011-03-12 05:16:00 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: thats retarded
877 2011-03-12 05:16:06 <Diablo-D3> no wonder python is so slow
878 2011-03-12 05:16:09 <luke-jr> yeah, because it's decimal
879 2011-03-12 05:19:23 <Diablo-D3> either way
880 2011-03-12 05:19:24 <Diablo-D3> its an int
881 2011-03-12 05:19:25 <Diablo-D3> use an int
882 2011-03-12 05:19:40 <Diablo-D3> we dont have floating point usage at all
883 2011-03-12 05:19:44 <Diablo-D3> ie, the point doesnt float
884 2011-03-12 05:19:45 <Diablo-D3> its fixed
885 2011-03-12 05:19:51 <Diablo-D3> nothing to shift
886 2011-03-12 05:20:06 <genjix> yeah and insert the . when you need to display/take user input.
887 2011-03-12 05:20:37 <genjix> how comes bitcoin doesn't use the full precision of int64?
888 2011-03-12 05:20:38 <Diablo-D3> yes.
889 2011-03-12 05:20:43 <Diablo-D3> genjix: doesnt need to
890 2011-03-12 05:20:55 <genjix> why not? it's there, so use it.
891 2011-03-12 05:21:17 <genjix> can't hurt.
892 2011-03-12 05:22:04 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, python uses hardware floats
893 2011-03-12 05:22:10 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, you have to explicitly use a decimal
894 2011-03-12 05:23:18 <genjix> luke-jr: I think you're lying.
895 2011-03-12 05:23:19 <genjix> >>> decimal.Decimal("2.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001")
896 2011-03-12 05:23:22 <genjix> Decimal('2.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001')
897 2011-03-12 05:24:18 <genjix> actually, you might be right:
898 2011-03-12 05:24:19 <genjix> >>> decimal.Decimal("2.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001")/decimal.Decimal("0.99999999999999999")
899 2011-03-12 05:24:23 <genjix> Decimal('2.000000000000000020000000000')
900 2011-03-12 05:24:37 <Diablo-D3> genjix: we only have 21m coins
901 2011-03-12 05:24:47 <Diablo-D3> whats 21 << dec 8
902 2011-03-12 05:25:28 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, uh
903 2011-03-12 05:25:44 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, each of those coins is subdividable
904 2011-03-12 05:26:01 <genjix> lol you're wrong:
905 2011-03-12 05:26:02 <genjix> >>> decimal.getcontext().prec = 1000
906 2011-03-12 05:26:03 <genjix> >>> decimal.Decimal("2.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001")/decimal.Decimal("0.99999999999999999")
907 2011-03-12 05:26:07 <genjix> Decimal('2.000000000000000020000000000000000200000000000000002000000000000000020000000000000000200000000000000002000000000000000020000000000000001200000000000000012000000000000000120000000000000001200000000000000012000000000000000120000000000000001200000000000000012000000000000000120000000000000001200000000000000012000000000000000120000000000000001200000000000000012000000000000000120000000000000001200000000000000012000000000000000120000000000000001
908 2011-03-12 05:26:20 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: erm? I already said << dec 8
909 2011-03-12 05:26:20 <genjix> python rules again
910 2011-03-12 05:26:28 <genjix> suck it perl!
911 2011-03-12 05:27:01 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, yeah i dont know what that is
912 2011-03-12 05:27:04 <phantomcircuit> it's a bitshift
913 2011-03-12 05:27:07 <phantomcircuit> but dec 8?
914 2011-03-12 05:27:58 <genjix> 1.0000 0000 = 1 0000 0000   in bitcoin's int64 internal representation.
915 2011-03-12 05:28:01 <Diablo-D3> shift it 8 places in decimal
916 2011-03-12 05:28:11 <Diablo-D3> is it larger than 4 billion?
917 2011-03-12 05:28:27 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, uh yes?
918 2011-03-12 05:28:43 <phantomcircuit> each btc is subdividable a billion times iirc
919 2011-03-12 05:29:12 <genjix> nowhere near a billion
920 2011-03-12 05:29:23 <genjix> billion = 10^12
921 2011-03-12 05:29:32 <phantomcircuit> erm
922 2011-03-12 05:29:39 <phantomcircuit> 10^9
923 2011-03-12 05:29:40 <genjix> bitcoin = 10^8
924 2011-03-12 05:29:47 <phantomcircuit> keep trying
925 2011-03-12 05:29:54 <genjix> no it's not, its ^12
926 2011-03-12 05:30:10 <phantomcircuit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000000000_%28number%29
927 2011-03-12 05:30:39 <Diablo-D3> bleh I hate 10^x
928 2011-03-12 05:30:43 <Diablo-D3> so much easier in 2^
929 2011-03-12 05:30:45 <genjix> oh lol, americans have a different billion to the UK
930 2011-03-12 05:31:01 <Diablo-D3> genjix: there is no such thing as a millard
931 2011-03-12 05:31:01 <genjix> wow
932 2011-03-12 05:31:03 <Diablo-D3> and there never was
933 2011-03-12 05:31:18 <genjix> i never claimed there was
934 2011-03-12 05:31:32 <genjix> just said that a billion = 10^12
935 2011-03-12 05:32:22 <phantomcircuit> genjix, a billion is a billion is a billion
936 2011-03-12 05:32:40 <ivan> the American billion won
937 2011-03-12 05:32:55 <genjix> in the uk we call a billion like a million million
938 2011-03-12 05:32:56 <ivan> I wonder if anyone thinks there are 7 * 10^12 people
939 2011-03-12 05:33:11 <genjix> i honestly thought that
940 2011-03-12 05:33:14 <phantomcircuit> genjix, that's retarded
941 2011-03-12 05:33:42 <genjix> why is that retarded?
942 2011-03-12 05:33:58 <genjix> OMG ITS DIFFERENT ITS RETARDED I DONT LIKE IT
943 2011-03-12 05:34:48 <phantomcircuit> because who the hell uses it
944 2011-03-12 05:34:51 <phantomcircuit> anyways
945 2011-03-12 05:34:54 <phantomcircuit> it's 10 million
946 2011-03-12 05:35:31 <genjix> imagine the horror i feel when i have to write 'SetColor' when coding
947 2011-03-12 05:35:41 <genjix> i feel sandpaper scraping my eyes
948 2011-03-12 05:36:49 <phantomcircuit> why would you have to write setcolor
949 2011-03-12 05:37:22 <genjix> working on a project with others (standard english is american) or i'm using an api like Qt
950 2011-03-12 05:38:25 <phantomcircuit> oh
951 2011-03-12 05:38:42 <phantomcircuit> meh
952 2011-03-12 05:39:56 <phantomcircuit> lol there is an alt stack in the scripting?
953 2011-03-12 05:39:58 <phantomcircuit> why
954 2011-03-12 05:40:00 <phantomcircuit> just
955 2011-03-12 05:40:01 <phantomcircuit> why
956 2011-03-12 05:40:09 <mizerydearia> anything else?  or just that?
957 2011-03-12 05:40:30 <phantomcircuit> oh so far i've only encountered a single thing that made sense
958 2011-03-12 05:40:43 <mizerydearia> that doesn't make any sense
959 2011-03-12 05:40:54 <mizerydearia> unless that is the single thing that you encountered?
960 2011-03-12 05:41:19 <phantomcircuit> OP_VERIFY
961 2011-03-12 05:41:24 <phantomcircuit> is so far the only sensical thing
962 2011-03-12 05:41:30 <genjix> phantomcircuit: is it possible with scripting to have funds shared between 2 addresses
963 2011-03-12 05:41:31 <phantomcircuit> except that it's kind of redundant
964 2011-03-12 05:41:38 <genjix> so it requires both their permission to spend?
965 2011-03-12 05:43:42 <phantomcircuit> what
966 2011-03-12 05:43:51 <phantomcircuit> just have two sigops
967 2011-03-12 05:45:09 <genjix> cool
968 2011-03-12 06:09:42 <MagicalTux> mizerydearia: yes
969 2011-03-12 06:14:40 <genjix> hey MagicalTux
970 2011-03-12 06:14:57 <MagicalTux> genjix: here one of the nuclear reactors affected has started meltdown