1 2011-03-15 00:09:33 <shennyg> is there a way to disable bitcoin from destroying my CPU while using diablo miner?
  2 2011-03-15 00:10:00 <jgarzik> shennyg: get a better miner?
  3 2011-03-15 00:10:28 <luke-jr> shennyg: also don't use SDK 2.2+
  4 2011-03-15 00:11:37 <shennyg> I am on osx using a ATI radeon HD 4850, what miner do you reccomend?
  5 2011-03-15 00:13:53 <luke-jr> shennyg: it's really not worth it I think
  6 2011-03-15 00:14:03 <xg0d> ur doomed
  7 2011-03-15 00:14:08 <xg0d> just buy bitcoins lol
  8 2011-03-15 00:14:34 <xg0d> i had to realize this too. because 2-5 yr wait time for 50 btc that may never come.. not worth the power
  9 2011-03-15 00:15:39 <shennyg> ok. so what is the point of buying a server just for this? that is cheaper than buying BC?
 10 2011-03-15 00:15:52 <luke-jr> no
 11 2011-03-15 00:15:58 <luke-jr> cheaper to buy bitcoins
 12 2011-03-15 00:16:17 <shennyg> then I guess I am missing something.
 13 2011-03-15 00:16:22 <luke-jr> if you buy a mining rig (NOT a 'server'), you might (maybe) break even after some months
 14 2011-03-15 00:16:23 <dirtyfilthy> hey does anyone know what happened to that bitcoin mining company?
 15 2011-03-15 00:16:24 <Kiba> electrcity
 16 2011-03-15 00:16:26 <dirtyfilthy> is it still running?
 17 2011-03-15 00:16:26 <shennyg> who should be mining for bitcoin?
 18 2011-03-15 00:17:02 <luke-jr> shennyg: in the long run, probably businesses
 19 2011-03-15 00:17:24 <luke-jr> right now, people with high end video cards
 20 2011-03-15 00:17:27 <shennyg> has anyone tried getting a badass aws gpu server and minning there?
 21 2011-03-15 00:17:43 <luke-jr> 4850 is a low-end video card
 22 2011-03-15 00:17:49 <luke-jr> unless it's an IGP, then it's even worse :P
 23 2011-03-15 00:17:52 <xg0d> well bitcoin is marketed as "anyone can generate bitcoins" well indeed that was true in the begining, now one needs more and more recources to make it possible
 24 2011-03-15 00:18:01 <luke-jr> shennyg: AWS? You mean Amazon EC2?
 25 2011-03-15 00:18:04 <shennyg> yes
 26 2011-03-15 00:18:07 <luke-jr> shennyg: those are nvidia, which suck
 27 2011-03-15 00:18:14 <shennyg> gotcha.
 28 2011-03-15 00:18:20 <luke-jr> xg0d: complain to anyone marketting mining
 29 2011-03-15 00:18:25 <luke-jr> xg0d: it's not a feature of bitcoin really
 30 2011-03-15 00:18:29 <shennyg> very intersting.
 31 2011-03-15 00:18:32 <xg0d> i know -sigh-
 32 2011-03-15 00:18:34 <xg0d> bastards
 33 2011-03-15 00:18:35 <shennyg> thanks for all your input
 34 2011-03-15 00:18:51 <luke-jr> shennyg: #bitcoin-otc usually has people willing to sell at low volumes easily
 35 2011-03-15 00:18:53 <shennyg> I thought this was somthing like folding at home....
 36 2011-03-15 00:19:03 <xg0d> well it used to be
 37 2011-03-15 00:19:11 <luke-jr> shennyg: you could join a pool with that video card, but it won't make money
 38 2011-03-15 00:19:17 <luke-jr> shennyg: it might break even with electric use
 39 2011-03-15 00:19:32 <[Noodles]> 75Mhash @100W wont make money?
 40 2011-03-15 00:19:45 <shennyg> yes it is thrashing my CPU not
 41 2011-03-15 00:19:47 <[Noodles]> that's far from true
 42 2011-03-15 00:19:47 <shennyg> *now
 43 2011-03-15 00:19:56 <[Noodles]> it wont make MUCH money
 44 2011-03-15 00:20:10 <[Noodles]> but its profitable anyway
 45 2011-03-15 00:20:29 <shennyg> is there a way to turn it off from using my CPU and only use my GPU?
 46 2011-03-15 00:20:48 <[Noodles]> what's using CPU?
 47 2011-03-15 00:21:01 <shennyg> the bitcoin process
 48 2011-03-15 00:21:11 <[Noodles]> deactivate generating then
 49 2011-03-15 00:21:27 <[Noodles]> only generate on your GPU
 50 2011-03-15 00:23:10 <shennyg> I get a ERROR: Can't connect to Bitcoin: Connection refused
 51 2011-03-15 00:23:48 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: he runs Mac
 52 2011-03-15 00:23:53 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: so it's like 42 MH
 53 2011-03-15 00:24:02 <[Noodles]> add rpcuser/password to bitcoin.conf and start bitcoin -server
 54 2011-03-15 00:24:22 <[Noodles]> however, with 42-75Mhash you better join a pool anyway
 55 2011-03-15 00:24:32 <[Noodles]> no need to run bitcoin at all
 56 2011-03-15 00:24:40 <luke-jr> &
 57 2011-03-15 00:24:45 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: the point is bitcoin, not mining
 58 2011-03-15 00:25:08 <[Noodles]> no need to run bit -server then
 59 2011-03-15 00:25:13 <[Noodles]> *bitcoin
 60 2011-03-15 00:26:22 <shennyg> ok. so is my address just a md5 hash?
 61 2011-03-15 00:26:28 <luke-jr> no
 62 2011-03-15 00:26:42 <luke-jr> nothing in bitcoin uses MD5
 63 2011-03-15 00:26:44 <luke-jr> MD5 is broken
 64 2011-03-15 00:26:55 <shennyg> it is a hash.
 65 2011-03-15 00:27:26 <justmoon> shennyg: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address
 66 2011-03-15 00:27:56 <justmoon> that wiki page could use some diagrams and stuff though :)
 67 2011-03-15 00:28:50 <luke-jr> an address is Base58(RIPEMD-160(SHA-256(ECDSA public key)))
 68 2011-03-15 00:31:03 <shennyg> thanks justmoon
 69 2011-03-15 00:32:35 <shennyg> so how long will it take to make it easier to have colissions than to generate a block?
 70 2011-03-15 00:32:53 <shennyg> *long - as in processor speed advancments
 71 2011-03-15 00:35:21 <luke-jr> shennyg: it will never be easier
 72 2011-03-15 00:35:35 <luke-jr> the whole bitcoin system will break down long before it becomes as easy
 73 2011-03-15 00:36:18 <luke-jr> generating a block is merely a "hash collision" where you have a large number of hashes to collide with
 74 2011-03-15 00:36:29 <ArtForz> roughly... 20 orders of magnitude
 75 2011-03-15 00:37:12 <luke-jr> (that's 10000000000 times more magnitude than the Japanese quake
 76 2011-03-15 00:37:19 <luke-jr> :P
 77 2011-03-15 00:49:48 <blarzong> been smoking hash all day
 78 2011-03-15 00:50:48 <xg0d> i dont think i have ever actually came across hash
 79 2011-03-15 00:51:01 <xg0d> ive got keef in my grinder, thats about as far as i can afford
 80 2011-03-15 00:51:50 <luke-jr> Keefe?
 81 2011-03-15 00:51:52 <xg0d> luke-jr what about with a technology that could potentially do TB processing?
 82 2011-03-15 00:52:00 <luke-jr> xg0d: TB?
 83 2011-03-15 00:52:04 <xg0d> TB
 84 2011-03-15 00:52:07 <luke-jr> wtf is TB
 85 2011-03-15 00:52:11 <ArtForz> TB!
 86 2011-03-15 00:52:12 <xg0d> terabyte?
 87 2011-03-15 00:52:20 <luke-jr> how does terabyte have anything to do with this?
 88 2011-03-15 00:52:27 <xg0d> wrong end of a convo
 89 2011-03-15 00:52:31 <xg0d> perhaps i should scroll up
 90 2011-03-15 00:52:40 <xg0d> or feel your wrath
 91 2011-03-15 00:52:41 <luke-jr> you mean TH?
 92 2011-03-15 00:53:39 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 34028236692093846346337460743200000000, is 4634391290369428470937860557 years, 40 weeks, 0 days, 20 hours, 22 minutes, and 24 seconds
 93 2011-03-15 00:53:39 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 1000000000 34028236692093846346337460743200000000
 94 2011-03-15 00:53:46 <luke-jr> nope, not a problem
 95 2011-03-15 00:55:09 <ArtForz> tubercles bacillus?
 96 2011-03-15 00:55:26 <blarzong> cockblock
 97 2011-03-15 00:55:26 <slush> ;;bc,stats
 98 2011-03-15 00:55:28 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113568 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1343 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 20 hours, 45 minutes, and 57 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 65529.00064081
 99 2011-03-15 00:55:37 <slush> DoomDumas: ^^
100 2011-03-15 00:58:36 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960, is 3671682230356164282638139436974194212763139669732653325611 years, 47 weeks, 3 days, 21 hours, and 48 seconds
101 2011-03-15 00:58:36 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 1000000000 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960
102 2011-03-15 00:59:07 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960, is 3671682230356164664975420892452031452121329354833329129 years, 42 weeks, 4 days, 13 hours, 45 minutes, and 36 seconds
103 2011-03-15 00:59:07 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 1000000000000 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960
104 2011-03-15 00:59:13 <JFK911> why are you trying to crash it
105 2011-03-15 00:59:17 <luke-jr> not
106 2011-03-15 00:59:40 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000000000000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960, is 3671682230356164283341926931718795276979277745 years, 35 weeks, 2 days, 22 hours, 53 minutes, and 52 seconds
107 2011-03-15 00:59:40 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 1000000000000000000000 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960
108 2011-03-15 00:59:47 <luke-jr> that'd by YH/s :p
109 2011-03-15 00:59:51 <noagendamarket> denied
110 2011-03-15 01:00:35 <noagendamarket> ;;bc,calc 1
111 2011-03-15 01:00:36 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 10377 years, 2 weeks, 3 days, 20 hours, 16 minutes, and 39 seconds
112 2011-03-15 01:00:41 <luke-jr> wait, I'm doing it wrong
113 2011-03-15 01:02:46 <blarzong> greetings
114 2011-03-15 01:03:48 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2500000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 3000, is 1 hour, 25 minutes, and 53 seconds
115 2011-03-15 01:03:48 <slush> ;;bc,calcd 2500000 3000
116 2011-03-15 01:03:57 <slush> DoomDumas: ^^
117 2011-03-15 01:05:36 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000000000000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 340277174624079928635746076935438991360, is 46343205751702956 years, 8 weeks, 4 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes, and 24 seconds
118 2011-03-15 01:05:36 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 1000000000000000000000 340277174624079928635746076935438991360
119 2011-03-15 01:05:55 <luke-jr> with 1 YH/s, it would take that many years to create an address collision
120 2011-03-15 01:05:56 <luke-jr> :p
121 2011-03-15 01:08:14 <genjix> erm wtf
122 2011-03-15 01:08:19 <genjix> bitcoin is hanging
123 2011-03-15 01:08:22 <genjix> LOADS
124 2011-03-15 01:08:39 <genjix> responses time out
125 2011-03-15 01:09:02 <genjix> genjix    5396  0.8  0.0      0     0 ?        Zl   Mar14   2:04 [bitcoind] <defunct>
126 2011-03-15 01:09:15 <JFK911> pwnt
127 2011-03-15 01:09:20 <luke-jr> lol
128 2011-03-15 01:09:23 <genjix> any thing i should check out before killing it?
129 2011-03-15 01:09:29 <luke-jr> you can't kill it
130 2011-03-15 01:09:31 <luke-jr> it's dead
131 2011-03-15 01:09:38 <genjix> kill -9
132 2011-03-15 01:09:42 <genjix> i wonder why it did that
133 2011-03-15 01:09:42 <luke-jr> won't work
134 2011-03-15 01:09:43 <luke-jr> :D
135 2011-03-15 01:10:12 <genjix> kill -9 5369 worked
136 2011-03-15 01:10:22 <luke-jr> nope
137 2011-03-15 01:10:24 <luke-jr> oh
138 2011-03-15 01:10:26 <luke-jr> maybe
139 2011-03-15 01:10:28 <luke-jr> that's not 5396
140 2011-03-15 01:10:29 <luke-jr> :p
141 2011-03-15 01:10:31 <blarzong> bitcoin time
142 2011-03-15 01:12:33 <blarzong> 1btc=10owls
143 2011-03-15 01:12:44 <blarzong> trading rare animals for money on silk rd
144 2011-03-15 01:12:55 <xg0d> no way!!
145 2011-03-15 01:13:05 <blarzong> i can get you several tiger spleens
146 2011-03-15 01:13:07 <xg0d> ill buy an owl for 1btc
147 2011-03-15 01:13:54 <blarzong> Hell, I can get you a toe by 3 o'clock this afternoon... with nail polish.
148 2011-03-15 01:14:09 <xg0d> ^_^ nothx. no foot fetish here
149 2011-03-15 01:17:02 <slush> ;;bc,calcd 80000000 76000
150 2011-03-15 01:17:03 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 80000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 76000, is 1 hour, 8 minutes, and 0 seconds
151 2011-03-15 01:17:56 <blarzong> <USENET> A man has been killed by the military in Riga, the night when Gorbatchev vacated Crimea
152 2011-03-15 01:18:23 <slush> ;;bc,calcd 400000000 55000
153 2011-03-15 01:18:25 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 400000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 55000, is 9 minutes and 50 seconds
154 2011-03-15 01:22:15 <Kiba> Jesus
155 2011-03-15 01:22:29 <Kiba> 20,000 BTC will need to be sold to move the market
156 2011-03-15 01:23:16 <dirtyfilthy> move it to where?
157 2011-03-15 01:27:31 <blarzong> which wealthy potentate has such quantities?
158 2011-03-15 01:28:20 <blarzong> why doesnt mtgox just "sell" some coin to itself
159 2011-03-15 01:28:53 <blarzong> 90% of the market could be sham transactions to lift up the currency.. thats how stock promoters usually do it
160 2011-03-15 01:30:28 <ArtForz> ahhh, still going with the "ask trollish questions that are already answered"... back on /ignore it is
161 2011-03-15 01:31:42 <lfm> blarzong people would notice if transactions went through like buys at prices higher than their offers to sell
162 2011-03-15 01:33:21 <blarzong> :(
163 2011-03-15 01:34:22 <blarzong> lfm: theres so little volume, you could buy up all the low sells and then any new asks are going to be at the higher price..
164 2011-03-15 01:34:28 <blarzong> standard operating procedure for stock manipulation
165 2011-03-15 01:34:57 <justmoon> blarzong: do you have any background in stocks or are you just 20-something and know everything?
166 2011-03-15 01:35:19 <blarzong> i dont know much about finance
167 2011-03-15 01:35:30 <justmoon> (disclaimer: I'm 20-something and know everything)
168 2011-03-15 01:36:15 <lolcat> I am also 20-something and know everythign!
169 2011-03-15 01:36:17 <blarzong> but.. a btc market can be manipulated in the same way any asset market can be.. with so little volume and powerful insiders who own most of the currency
170 2011-03-15 01:36:29 <justmoon> lolcat: but you're a cat...
171 2011-03-15 01:36:30 <lolcat> Except wtf Emanuel Kant says in realtion to Humes theories.
172 2011-03-15 01:37:02 <justmoon> Kant is full of manure - philosophical dilemma solved.
173 2011-03-15 01:37:16 <justmoon> Imma go fix the middle east now, brb
174 2011-03-15 01:38:00 <lolcat> justmoon: 1/3 of this years studies is about emanuel kant. I am buying to book tomorrow to deliver the 3-5 pages essay about him wich will base my grade
175 2011-03-15 01:38:05 <blarzong> the classic book of the genre is: "reminisces of a stock operator" wrtitten in 1923
176 2011-03-15 01:38:09 <blarzong> http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2006/10/26/foolish-book-review-quotreminiscences-of-a-stock-o.aspx
177 2011-03-15 01:38:14 <lolcat> Kiba: What is witcoin?
178 2011-03-15 01:38:35 <blarzong> every trick that was used back then is still being down now in the markets (and even then it was old hat, since the 1800s, ,when the markets were first opened)
179 2011-03-15 01:38:38 <blarzong> its a good read
180 2011-03-15 01:38:40 <Kiba> it's a social news site where you get paid when somebody upvote you and when somebody upvote your vote
181 2011-03-15 01:38:55 <Kiba> get it?
182 2011-03-15 01:39:11 <justmoon> Kiba: why would I pay to vote for people?
183 2011-03-15 01:39:11 <lolcat> Nope
184 2011-03-15 01:39:16 <blarzong> for aslightly more modern take you can try michael lewis's 1989 "Liars Poker" or his most recent" "The Big Short"
185 2011-03-15 01:39:40 <blarzong> but anything in lefevres 1923 book "reminisces of a stock operator" applies to today even more so... its an entertaining read
186 2011-03-15 01:39:52 <Kiba> justmoon: somebody might upvote you for your vote, meaning you get paid
187 2011-03-15 01:40:21 <Kiba> but when you vote, you pay
188 2011-03-15 01:40:36 <Kiba> get it? it's a ponzi scheme
189 2011-03-15 01:41:00 <justmoon> Kiba: hmm, perhaps another way to look at it is that you benefit for upvoting good contributions is that there will be more good contributions
190 2011-03-15 01:41:11 <justmoon> your* benefit
191 2011-03-15 01:41:21 <Kiba> only one thread I have made a profit :(
192 2011-03-15 01:41:34 <justmoon> does the site charge a percentage?
193 2011-03-15 01:41:41 <Kiba> I think so
194 2011-03-15 01:41:48 <lolcat> Kiba: Upvote me!
195 2011-03-15 01:41:53 <blarzong> anyway, everyone knows by coordinating the supply of bitcoins a large operator or larg exchange can manipulate prices in arbitrary directions / magnitudes
196 2011-03-15 01:42:38 <blarzong> its a decentralized system, we dont need to take it on faith that ppl will be benevolent when theyre trying tomake a buck?
197 2011-03-15 01:43:42 <Kiba> a large operator must secure a large supply of bitcoin first
198 2011-03-15 01:43:56 <blarzong> im not saying anyone is doing shady things.. i think everyone is being highly above board with everything
199 2011-03-15 01:44:18 <justmoon> blarzong: if that worked, why isn't everybody doing it?
200 2011-03-15 01:44:36 <mizerydearia> wow http://www.alexandrosmaragos.com/2011/03/hacker-in-times-square.html
201 2011-03-15 01:45:00 <blarzong> justmoon: tradeoffs.. you want the market to expand a bit (more suckers to come in who will absorb the losses)
202 2011-03-15 01:45:26 <blarzong> and you need credibility to expand.. but eventually it becomes more profitable to sell-out that credibility than to enhance it
203 2011-03-15 01:45:43 <Kiba> mizerydearia: how about featuring a thread until it get 50 views?
204 2011-03-15 01:45:50 <blarzong> we know how finance works right.. its goldman sachs, on a smaller scale
205 2011-03-15 01:46:08 <justmoon> blarzong: if that we're true you'd have the tragedy of the commons, every speculator would have an incentive to pull as much out as possible destroying the opportunity for everyone
206 2011-03-15 01:46:16 <Kiba> that way, everybody got an equal shot at a spotlight
207 2011-03-15 01:46:27 <dirtyfilthy> mizerydearia: fake attempt at viral marketing for woodies bacon
208 2011-03-15 01:46:52 <blarzong> justmoon: they do.. but also they are bubble-seeking animals.. they pile into an asset with the expectation it wil rise further, and then sell-off in a mass panic
209 2011-03-15 01:47:00 <mizerydearia> dirtyfilthy, mm
210 2011-03-15 01:47:13 <blarzong> speculators make their money on bubbles, not on the long and slow accumulation of microscopic returns
211 2011-03-15 01:47:21 <justmoon> blarzong: markets serve a legitimate function and so do speculators, they aim to anticipate future changes in price, not produce them - if you trade with a large volume trying to move prices you can easily get trapped on the wrong side if the market actually moves
212 2011-03-15 01:47:27 <mizerydearia> Kiba, featuring a thread?  how would that work?
213 2011-03-15 01:47:29 <justmoon> yeah, bubbles are good example
214 2011-03-15 01:47:44 <Kiba> mizerydearia: a thread of the day at the top of the page
215 2011-03-15 01:47:47 <blarzong> im not sure what the def. of "legitimate" is.. they are not doing anyone any favors or improving anyones lot
216 2011-03-15 01:48:00 <mizerydearia> and why feature when yuo can view latest activity and newest posts?
217 2011-03-15 01:48:12 <Kiba> not every thread get viewed
218 2011-03-15 01:48:19 <mizerydearia> oh?
219 2011-03-15 01:48:24 <mizerydearia> and why is that?
220 2011-03-15 01:48:32 <justmoon> blarzorg: if they are trading the way you describe they will sooner or later go bankrupt for the reason I described
221 2011-03-15 01:48:37 <Kiba> mizerydearia: well, some thread will be viewed more than others
222 2011-03-15 01:48:42 <blarzong> justmoon: manipulating the price (insider trading / pump and dump / manipulating PR) is the best way to "anticipiate" the right price
223 2011-03-15 01:48:42 <mizerydearia> I, personally, have viewed every thread
224 2011-03-15 01:48:44 <justmoon> blarzong: that's why US investment banks needed a bailout
225 2011-03-15 01:48:54 <mizerydearia> Kiba, of course, and some people are more willing to view more threads than others
226 2011-03-15 01:48:59 <blarzong> justmoon: you realize that financial crisis happens every 20 years or so
227 2011-03-15 01:49:06 <blarzong> we are perpetually bailing them out
228 2011-03-15 01:49:24 <justmoon> blarzong: bitcoin is a free market, so you won't be bailed out
229 2011-03-15 01:49:25 <Kiba> mizerydearia: someday, the site is going to get horde of content, and most thread will get passed over with nobody scarcely viewing it
230 2011-03-15 01:49:30 <blarzong> which is fine w/them.. spectacular short-term gains
231 2011-03-15 01:49:37 <blarzong> justmoon: why do insider manipulators need a bailout?
232 2011-03-15 01:49:43 <Kiba> insider trading is actually a good thing
233 2011-03-15 01:49:46 <blarzong> they can just control the price
234 2011-03-15 01:49:47 <Kiba> it means information float up
235 2011-03-15 01:49:49 <mizerydearia> Kiba, and by that day, I am certain the site will be further developed.
236 2011-03-15 01:50:07 <blarzong> whoever controls the supply of bitcoin controls their value.
237 2011-03-15 01:50:17 <blarzong> simple laws of supply / demand
238 2011-03-15 01:50:20 <justmoon> blarzong: no they can't control the price, they can only push it, if they get caught on the wrong side when the price *actually* moves they have gigantic losses
239 2011-03-15 01:50:30 <justmoon> blarzong: see "financial crises"
240 2011-03-15 01:50:49 <mizerydearia> Kiba, Feel free to mention the idea on meta if you have time.  I don't think it has been brought up yet.
241 2011-03-15 01:50:54 <blarzong> justmoon: you dont really understand supply and demand
242 2011-03-15 01:51:07 <blarzong> if you control the supply, you control the price
243 2011-03-15 01:51:17 <justmoon> nobody "controls the supply"
244 2011-03-15 01:51:33 <blarzong> except those who hold a lot of currency
245 2011-03-15 01:51:45 <justmoon> they still only control a fraction of the supply
246 2011-03-15 01:51:56 <x6763> blarzong: a price is an agreement between both parties in a trade...each person controls only part of the possible trade, and neither trades unless they both agree to a trade
247 2011-03-15 01:51:58 <blarzong> look im not interested in a debate where you claim that bitcoin somehow behaves like no other asset in existence because somehow peoples incentives disappear when they use bitcoins
248 2011-03-15 01:52:32 <blarzong> x6763: if there are 100 bitcoins in the market, and i flood the market with another 100, each btc is worth 1/2 of its previous value. the supply is double
249 2011-03-15 01:52:32 <Kiba> as the value of bitcoin rise, the more difficult it is to control the price of bitcoin
250 2011-03-15 01:52:56 <blarzong> if open produces twice as much oil, the price will be cut in half
251 2011-03-15 01:53:24 <justmoon> blarzong: if you purchased 100000 bitcoins today, you'd move the price way up, but a large part of your own trade would be at the higher end as well. if then other owners of bitcoins sell off before you do, you make a loss
252 2011-03-15 01:53:26 <blarzong> s/open/opec
253 2011-03-15 01:53:28 <Kiba> it's paid advertising, with the side benefit of potential profit
254 2011-03-15 01:53:43 <justmoon> blarzong: you can only make a profit if people get fooled by the price move instead of calling your bluff
255 2011-03-15 01:53:51 <blarzong> justmoon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Supply-and-demand.svg
256 2011-03-15 01:53:59 <blarzong> pls understand how supply affects price
257 2011-03-15 01:54:48 <blarzong> whoever has the power to control supply, controls the price. that is a universal truth. theres no sense in arguing somehow it doesn't apply to bitcoin because bitcoin is rad
258 2011-03-15 01:55:06 <Diablo-D3> ...
259 2011-03-15 01:55:09 <justmoon> blarzong: what I'm saying applies to every market
260 2011-03-15 01:55:28 <Diablo-D3> you know, Im just going to create another channel
261 2011-03-15 01:55:34 <Diablo-D3> #bitcoin-without-200-people
262 2011-03-15 01:55:38 <justmoon> blarzong: if you buy a ton of porsche stock, you'll move the price up, but your trade won't all be at the old price
263 2011-03-15 01:55:51 <justmoon> blarzong: if people call you on it, you will get caught
264 2011-03-15 01:55:52 <lolcat> blarzong: Yes, if you want to be an asshole you can buy shitloads of bitcoins and sell them cheap. Still people would only loose as much as others would earn
265 2011-03-15 01:56:57 <blarzong> lolcat: if you "back" the market at $2 per btc, you have now created a speculative bubble which ppl will join.. then at some point you dump the asset and a bunch of suckers are left holding the bag
266 2011-03-15 01:57:16 <blarzong> you dont even need to back it since you already have the coin and can log sham transactions in and out of the exchange
267 2011-03-15 01:57:22 <x6763> blarzong: bitcoins aren't the only supply in the equation...the potential buyers of bitcoins have their own supply, too...your arguments also suggest they have control over the price
268 2011-03-15 01:57:23 <Kiba> mizerydearia: witcoin seem to be a self-sustaining site. Congratulation.
269 2011-03-15 01:57:23 <lolcat> blarzong: Well, but then a bunch of people could sell and they would earn
270 2011-03-15 01:57:44 <x6763> (their own supply of other goods possibly offered for bitcoins)
271 2011-03-15 01:57:52 <noagendamarket> About Monostereo inc
272 2011-03-15 01:58:07 <Kiba> blarzong: sham transaction which get used up by transaction fees
273 2011-03-15 01:58:27 <blarzong> kiba, use the gratis or earn the tx fees yourself on the other end
274 2011-03-15 01:58:45 <blarzong> the hassle would be worth it when you profit on the other side
275 2011-03-15 01:59:10 <blarzong> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump <-- this is what happens with small-cap assets
276 2011-03-15 01:59:37 <blarzong> theres not much diff between btc and a lightly traded OTC
277 2011-03-15 02:00:08 <blarzong> anyway it wouldnt make sense until there are enough "suckers" to absorb the losses
278 2011-03-15 02:00:27 <Kiba> meh. Price change and instability are rampant. That's expected in a market where trading volume is so low. What the big deal?
279 2011-03-15 02:01:12 <blarzong> debeers, opec -> they control the supply of diamonds/oil. they can flood the market and cause everyone elses assets to drop precipitously in value
280 2011-03-15 02:01:29 <blarzong> in bitcoin who has the supply.. insiders at this point
281 2011-03-15 02:01:42 <Kiba> as if that is a bad thing
282 2011-03-15 02:01:56 <x6763> more goods on the market is a good thing
283 2011-03-15 02:02:14 <blarzong> x6763: not if it means your portfolio tanks in value
284 2011-03-15 02:02:17 <Kiba> witcoin is now sustaining a content market
285 2011-03-15 02:02:34 <blarzong> is more USD good? fire up the printng presses.. is more unsold housing inventory good?
286 2011-03-15 02:02:40 <x6763> blarzong: people make bad investments or shit happens....so what
287 2011-03-15 02:03:03 <blarzong> x6763: insider manipulation is an added category of risk.. it would be a better investment without that
288 2011-03-15 02:03:31 <x6763> more housing means it will be more affordable (assuming the government doesn't try to "help")
289 2011-03-15 02:03:47 <Kiba> this is a fricking non-issue
290 2011-03-15 02:03:58 <blarzong> x6763: youre right, i actually favor that. (unfortunately anyone who has a $200K mortgage will see their networth go negative)
291 2011-03-15 02:04:26 <blarzong> speculation / archaic property rights systems are why housing is so expensive
292 2011-03-15 02:04:33 <ArtForz> blazongtroll still at it?
293 2011-03-15 02:04:56 <forrestv> are there any papers describing bitcoin in more detail than http://www.bitcoin.org/sites/default/files/bitcoin.pdf ?
294 2011-03-15 02:05:03 <forrestv> or what other resource should i use to understand it?
295 2011-03-15 02:05:21 <x6763> so either the market was manipulated (see the government/Fed) or people made bad investments...first case it's a problem created by a violent institution...second case it's a bad purchase...so what
296 2011-03-15 02:05:24 <blarzong> forrestv: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page
297 2011-03-15 02:05:26 <justmoon> forrestv: the wiki is where it's at
298 2011-03-15 02:06:35 <blarzong> x6763: an investor doent want to be exposed to certain risks (insiders can play the market against everyone else, so thats a significant risk, unless youre an insider (youre goldman sachs or TBTF))
299 2011-03-15 02:07:26 <x6763> again, so what? people can make their own investment decisions...that's part of the market
300 2011-03-15 02:07:38 <blarzong> justmoon, x6763, kiba are brilliant guys.. you know much more about bitcoin than i do.. i dont even know how it works..
301 2011-03-15 02:07:54 <blarzong> i sure you are well aware of economic forces, supply and demand, etc
302 2011-03-15 02:09:37 <blarzong> x6763: unicorns
303 2011-03-15 02:09:53 <justmoon> blarzong: nobody is saying insider trading doesn't exist, only that you'll eventually go broke doing it, hence goldman sachs etc. needing billion dollar bailouts
304 2011-03-15 02:10:22 <x6763> unless you agreed to some rules/contract to not do insider trading, it's not a problem
305 2011-03-15 02:10:28 <Kiba> me?
306 2011-03-15 02:10:37 <blarzong> you dont go broke. the banks went broke for entirely different reasons
307 2011-03-15 02:10:45 <Kiba> insider trading is a good thing! It bring up information
308 2011-03-15 02:10:50 <Kiba> up to the market
309 2011-03-15 02:10:53 <blarzong> goldman et al. planned to go broke because the short-term gains exceeded the long-term losses
310 2011-03-15 02:11:20 <blarzong> the executives knew they could make personal fortunes of unimaginable size by banjkrupting the system
311 2011-03-15 02:11:33 <blarzong> the bailout was just icing on the whole cake
312 2011-03-15 02:11:34 <justmoon> blarzong: of course, but if they hadn't expected to get bailed out they would have acted differently
313 2011-03-15 02:11:46 <x6763> yes, a very corrupt system made possible by a (inherently corrupt) government
314 2011-03-15 02:12:20 <justmoon> this whole short-term gains thing only works if you can offload the long-term losses onto somebody else
315 2011-03-15 02:12:34 <blarzong> nah, you jsut cash out before the market freezes
316 2011-03-15 02:12:53 <blarzong> but youre right
317 2011-03-15 02:12:57 <blarzong> someone else is left holding the bag
318 2011-03-15 02:13:21 <blarzong> that could be your own employer, pension funds, other banks, etc
319 2011-03-15 02:13:43 <validus> if they were that worried they would have put their own funds in to save their business but instead relied on someone else and blame it on someone else instead of take responsibility
320 2011-03-15 02:13:47 <noagendamarket> funnily enough if I steal a dollar from the shop I go to jail for a long time
321 2011-03-15 02:13:55 <validus> of course they expected a bailout, the movie wall street 2 actually has some facts in it
322 2011-03-15 02:14:24 <noagendamarket> if you steal from a bank = 10 years in prison
323 2011-03-15 02:14:38 <noagendamarket> if a bank steals form you = 0 prison for the bank
324 2011-03-15 02:14:52 <blarzong> the bailout was a nice perk, but they made huge fortunes during the bubble itself and cashed out
325 2011-03-15 02:14:56 <noagendamarket> its good to be the bank :)
326 2011-03-15 02:15:04 <subpar> noagendamarket: If you steal - steal BIG - hundreds of millions not hundres
327 2011-03-15 02:15:06 <blarzong> what do you care if theres a bailout or not, when you have $1bn in a swiss bank acct ?
328 2011-03-15 02:15:21 <luke-jr> &
329 2011-03-15 02:15:21 <noagendamarket> subpar maybe so
330 2011-03-15 02:15:39 <validus> doesnt matter what you did, it matters what someone can prove or if you get caught
331 2011-03-15 02:15:51 <justmoon> blarzong: what banker made a billion?!
332 2011-03-15 02:16:05 <validus> i met a guy in jail his ex wife turned him in for embezzling 16 million
333 2011-03-15 02:16:21 <justmoon> even the CEO of goldman sachs doesn't earn that much, they're tiny, compared to the top entrepreneurs of the world
334 2011-03-15 02:16:21 <subpar> hedgies made the Billions not many bakers
335 2011-03-15 02:16:37 <justmoon> as far as private wealth is concerned
336 2011-03-15 02:16:41 <Diablo-D3> er
337 2011-03-15 02:16:41 <subpar> bankers
338 2011-03-15 02:16:58 <justmoon> they *manage* a lot of money, but the "billion dollar bonuses"... that shit is spread across a lot of people
339 2011-03-15 02:17:10 <Diablo-D3> you do realize the CEO of goldman sachs got paid hundreds of millions in _bonuses_ at the top of the banking crisis?
340 2011-03-15 02:17:15 <validus> i woudlnt put a billion in one place
341 2011-03-15 02:17:21 <validus> id have that stashed everywhere where you cant find it
342 2011-03-15 02:17:37 <justmoon> Diablo-D3: source?
343 2011-03-15 02:17:37 <noagendamarket> lol
344 2011-03-15 02:17:38 <subpar> Diablo-D3: not so...
345 2011-03-15 02:17:53 <blarzong> richard fuld, the ceo of lehman bros (the bank whose collapse triggered the GFC) made around $484 million in compensation
346 2011-03-15 02:17:55 <subpar> look at their 10-K
347 2011-03-15 02:18:08 <justmoon> blarzong: over what timespan?
348 2011-03-15 02:18:19 <justmoon> blarzong: also: source?
349 2011-03-15 02:18:20 <Diablo-D3> blarzong: depends how you define collapse
350 2011-03-15 02:18:31 <subpar> dick fuld was a dick
351 2011-03-15 02:18:37 <Diablo-D3> goldman sachs thought up the method on how to securitize shit mortgages
352 2011-03-15 02:18:38 <blarzong> Diablo-D3: as in chapter 11?
353 2011-03-15 02:18:57 <Diablo-D3> they pulled out of that market around the time everyone else was getting in because they realize it was a very bad idea
354 2011-03-15 02:19:07 <Diablo-D3> so GS profited to hell and back, and everyone else got fucked
355 2011-03-15 02:19:08 <blarzong> justmoon: over 8 years
356 2011-03-15 02:19:24 <Diablo-D3> lehman bros was just one of many banks that got scammed by GS
357 2011-03-15 02:19:47 <justmoon> "Wells Fargo chairman is America's highest paid banker" "John Stumpf, who came from a poor farming family, earned $18m last year, double the pay of Goldman Sachs boss"
358 2011-03-15 02:19:53 <justmoon> source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/feb/16/wells-fargo-chairman-highest-us-earner
359 2011-03-15 02:20:07 <blarzong> lippmann, andrew lahde were a couple hedge fund guys who made close to a billion each on shorting the CDS market
360 2011-03-15 02:20:27 <justmoon> 18m$ is what bill gates makes (or loses) on a bad day :)
361 2011-03-15 02:20:35 <validus> its a lil higher than t hat
362 2011-03-15 02:20:45 <Diablo-D3> justmoon: thats straight out pay
363 2011-03-15 02:20:50 <Diablo-D3> thats not bonuses and stock earnings
364 2011-03-15 02:21:01 <blarzong> yeah that is not their compensation
365 2011-03-15 02:21:02 <validus> whats on paper and what is earned is usually a bit different to
366 2011-03-15 02:22:02 <blarzong> http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/storysupplement/ceopay/
367 2011-03-15 02:22:18 <Diablo-D3> if they make $1b in a year, it doesnt matter how they made it
368 2011-03-15 02:22:21 <Diablo-D3> they made it
369 2011-03-15 02:22:28 <Diablo-D3> some CEO is buying a whole fleet of yachts
370 2011-03-15 02:22:45 <Diablo-D3> btw, the news is NOT going to responsibly report this
371 2011-03-15 02:22:45 <justmoon> Diablo-D3: it's actually with bonus
372 2011-03-15 02:22:53 <blarzong> Diablo-D3: made it... by destroying the financial system and everyone home values?
373 2011-03-15 02:23:10 <Diablo-D3> the news was just as part of the destruction of the financial system just as much as the banks were
374 2011-03-15 02:23:14 <blarzong> ary D. Cohn
375 2011-03-15 02:23:26 <blarzong> $600,000 salary $72.5 million total compensation
376 2011-03-15 02:23:30 <blarzong> goldman sachs 2007
377 2011-03-15 02:23:37 <blarzong> not a bad chunk of change
378 2011-03-15 02:23:48 <blarzong> in the years leading up to the crisis guys like fuld made $500 million
379 2011-03-15 02:24:03 <validus> http://i.imgur.com/D58ei.jpg
380 2011-03-15 02:24:15 <blarzong> what is the incentive to care if you are getting bailed out or not when you can earn insane bonuses by taking risks that wont turn sour until a few years later?
381 2011-03-15 02:24:24 <noagendamarket> goldman bought into facebook
382 2011-03-15 02:24:30 <justmoon> blarzong: the best source you could find says $72.5, but hey no reason not to round up and claim 500$ without source
383 2011-03-15 02:24:50 <blarzong> justmoon: false
384 2011-03-15 02:24:58 <blarzong> take total compensation in the bubble years
385 2011-03-15 02:25:01 <blarzong> not "just 2007"
386 2011-03-15 02:25:05 <blarzong> http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5965360&page=1 here you go
387 2011-03-15 02:25:11 <blarzong> Lehman Brothers Boss Defends $484 Million in Salary, Bonus
388 2011-03-15 02:25:39 <blarzong> why would fuld care if he bankrupts lehman, when he walks away with half a billion?
389 2011-03-15 02:25:40 <Diablo-D3> [11:24:03] <validus> http://i.imgur.com/D58ei.jpg
390 2011-03-15 02:25:47 <Diablo-D3> FUCKING RICH PEOPLE
391 2011-03-15 02:25:52 <blarzong> haha
392 2011-03-15 02:25:58 <validus> hehe
393 2011-03-15 02:26:01 <validus> i laughed so hard
394 2011-03-15 02:27:00 <blarzong> justmoon: the market is constantly being manipulated by the powerful interests. theres no free market in existence
395 2011-03-15 02:27:37 <blarzong> this is mainly a failure of democracy - wall st bribes congress to give it special treatment / privileges
396 2011-03-15 02:27:54 <validus> this is nothing really new
397 2011-03-15 02:28:15 <justmoon> blarzong: yep, congress makes laws for the highest bidder, no argument there
398 2011-03-15 02:28:27 <Diablo-D3> man
399 2011-03-15 02:28:31 <Diablo-D3> I just had a hilarious idea
400 2011-03-15 02:28:31 <justmoon> blarzong: I'm only saying you should be pissed at congress, not at the highest bidder
401 2011-03-15 02:28:34 <blarzong> indeed. i was recommending the 1923 book "reminisces of a stock operator" for a good intro on all the scams.. which havent changed since then.. and at the time of writing, the author copmains the scams havent changed since the us stock markets opened in the 1800s
402 2011-03-15 02:28:35 <Diablo-D3> Im going to run for president
403 2011-03-15 02:28:38 <Diablo-D3> on bitcoin donations over
404 2011-03-15 02:28:39 <Diablo-D3> er
405 2011-03-15 02:28:40 <Diablo-D3> only
406 2011-03-15 02:28:50 <Diablo-D3> and since i have about a decade before Im old enough to run
407 2011-03-15 02:28:54 <Diablo-D3> you better start donating now
408 2011-03-15 02:29:01 <validus> lol
409 2011-03-15 02:29:07 <blarzong> justmoon: good point
410 2011-03-15 02:29:57 <Kiba> w00t, a profit!
411 2011-03-15 02:30:05 <justmoon> also aside from evil speculating, I also want to point out that good banking and speculation is an extremely important function to coordinate resource use and allow entrepreneurs to work etc.
412 2011-03-15 02:30:27 <blarzong> justmoon: you seem to know a lot about ifnance.. are you in economics?
413 2011-03-15 02:30:41 <justmoon> blarzong: fifth semester business studies
414 2011-03-15 02:30:46 <blarzong> ahh cool
415 2011-03-15 02:31:14 <blarzong> unfortunately speculation is actually rent-seeking, predatory behavior. it provides no benefit to mankind, despite what speculators would like everyone else to believe
416 2011-03-15 02:31:38 <justmoon> ok, so let's say there is a copper shortage coming and everybody ignores it
417 2011-03-15 02:31:48 <justmoon> a speculator can buy copper now, which raises the price
418 2011-03-15 02:31:54 <justmoon> people will try and use less copper NOW
419 2011-03-15 02:31:59 <justmoon> instead of waiting until it runs out
420 2011-03-15 02:32:01 <Diablo-D3> except speculation is not your enemy
421 2011-03-15 02:32:11 <Diablo-D3> its protecting speculators that is the problem
422 2011-03-15 02:32:21 <Diablo-D3> _owning stock_ is speculation.
423 2011-03-15 02:32:51 <Diablo-D3> those bank and car bailouts bush did? he wasnt saving companies, he was saving rich speculators.
424 2011-03-15 02:32:56 <Diablo-D3> THIS is where shit went wrong
425 2011-03-15 02:33:17 <justmoon> Diablo-D3: amen
426 2011-03-15 02:34:13 <Kiba> Yes! another thread profitable
427 2011-03-15 02:35:04 <x6763> there's nothing wrong with speculating...in fact it's part of how the brain functions...you can't predict or know the future with anything close to 100% accuracy...you *must* speculate if you make any decision whatsoever
428 2011-03-15 02:35:55 <justmoon> x6763: I'd even go as far as to say that pump and dump and insider trading is *not* speculating at all, but basic fraud
429 2011-03-15 02:36:04 <justmoon> it's like selling fake gold
430 2011-03-15 02:36:16 <justmoon> same basic principle
431 2011-03-15 02:38:11 <genjix> Diablo-D3: how old are you? 10?
432 2011-03-15 02:38:17 <genjix> < Diablo-D3> and since i have about a decade before Im old enough to run
433 2011-03-15 02:38:27 <blarzong> if i buy all the rice in india, and hoard it in my warehouse or charge exorbitant fees, people will starve... that is exactly what happened in the mid-2000s commodities bubble   http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-how-goldman-gambled-on-starvation-2016088.html
434 2011-03-15 02:38:39 <x6763> yeah, if there's false statements made in attempt to drive up the price, i'd agree that it is fraud
435 2011-03-15 02:38:40 <nanotube> genjix: min age for president in usa is 35
436 2011-03-15 02:38:42 <validus> they moved the age to 20 to run for president?
437 2011-03-15 02:38:54 <genjix> nanotube: really? is that a fact?
438 2011-03-15 02:38:59 <blarzong> the death toll from the food bubble is hard to quantify
439 2011-03-15 02:38:59 <genjix> weird rule
440 2011-03-15 02:39:25 <validus> lol
441 2011-03-15 02:39:30 <nanotube> genjix: yea, you can check on the net to confirm. :)
442 2011-03-15 02:39:44 <nanotube> justmoon: he's unlikely to screw shit up any worse than any of the old farts did. haha
443 2011-03-15 02:39:46 <blarzong> http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/07/0083022  How Wall Street starved millions and got away with it
444 2011-03-15 02:39:59 <blarzong> wall street bought up all the staples, rice, wheat, etc... hoarded them, and people starved
445 2011-03-15 02:40:05 <Diablo-D3> [11:38:11] <genjix> Diablo-D3: how old are you? 10?
446 2011-03-15 02:40:09 <Diablo-D3> read the constitution, douchebag
447 2011-03-15 02:40:12 <Diablo-D3> you have to be 45.
448 2011-03-15 02:40:38 <blarzong> the demand for basic staples is fairly inelastic.. so the market absorbs the price shock.. but you know who cant absorb the price increase? the poorest.. who simply starve to death
449 2011-03-15 02:40:44 <validus> 35, but the youngest president was 44
450 2011-03-15 02:41:10 <validus> 43*
451 2011-03-15 02:41:25 <validus> One must also be at least 35 years of age to be president. John F. Kennedy was the youngest person to be elected president; he was 43 years old when he was inaugurated in 1961. There is no maximum age limit set forth in the Constitution. Ronald Reagan was the oldest president; at the end of his term in 1988, he was nearly 77.
452 2011-03-15 02:41:50 <blarzong> you had global hunger caused by the wall street engineered bubble in food prices
453 2011-03-15 02:42:14 <genjix> Diablo-D3: OH IM SORRY
454 2011-03-15 02:42:22 <genjix> for not being an american
455 2011-03-15 02:42:24 <blarzong> wheat doubled over the course of like 18 months - do you really think people suddenly decided to eat twice as much bread in 18 months? the price was a bubble
456 2011-03-15 02:42:44 <justmoon> Diablo-D3, genjix: damn, guys, what is with the agression?
457 2011-03-15 02:42:55 <genjix> justmoon: no aggression just joking :)
458 2011-03-15 02:43:04 <justmoon> ok *huggles* :)
459 2011-03-15 02:43:18 <Kiba> starve million?
460 2011-03-15 02:43:26 <Kiba> is it just another case of post hoc?
461 2011-03-15 02:43:42 <blarzong> Kiba: if the price of rice is double, how can a poor villager eat
462 2011-03-15 02:43:46 <Kiba> there's a difference between starving millions and supply being ruin for another reason
463 2011-03-15 02:44:20 <Kiba> I guess, a villager eats less
464 2011-03-15 02:44:30 <x6763> or spends less money on other things
465 2011-03-15 02:44:45 <Kiba> people are poor for lot of reasons
466 2011-03-15 02:44:46 <blarzong> literally food staples doubled in price over 18 months.. not because people were suddenly eating twice as much food.. but because wall st moved all their money into those assets. now its better to sell to other speculators (and those who can afford the price shock) than to sell to the villager who needs it or he starves
467 2011-03-15 02:45:18 <blarzong> the global pool of money can be redirected into any asset, making it unaffordable for ppl who actually need the asset
468 2011-03-15 02:45:22 <Kiba> how do you know villagers are starving?
469 2011-03-15 02:45:57 <blarzong> kiba, a guy making $1 a day can afford to pay twice as much for food , when his community is already malnourished?
470 2011-03-15 02:46:33 <blarzong> At the end of 2006, food prices across the world started to rise, suddenly and stratospherically. Within a year, the price of wheat had shot up by 80 per cent, maize by 90 per cent, rice by 320 per cent. In a global jolt of hunger, 200 million people  mostly children  couldnt afford to get food any more, and sank into malnutrition or starvation. There were riots in more than 30 countries,
471 2011-03-15 02:46:33 <Kiba> I heard poor harvest was the cause
472 2011-03-15 02:46:46 <blarzong> so you had the bubble in 2006-2008... now in 2011, theres a new bubble coming up
473 2011-03-15 02:47:02 <blarzong> Kiba: rght, that is a signal which caused the speculative frenzy.. now its pure emotion
474 2011-03-15 02:47:03 <Kiba> did you check the productions of food?
475 2011-03-15 02:47:21 <blarzong> yes its down slightly
476 2011-03-15 02:47:30 <blarzong> or rather yield estimates are down
477 2011-03-15 02:47:55 <blarzong> but the price spiked out of proportion to the actual decline in production estimates in 2011
478 2011-03-15 02:47:59 <Kiba> without spectulation, the price swing would be worse
479 2011-03-15 02:48:10 <blarzong> now it would be negligible
480 2011-03-15 02:48:30 <Kiba> well, I only know what you tell me
481 2011-03-15 02:48:46 <blarzong> you seem to know a lot about it tho
482 2011-03-15 02:48:51 <blarzong> are you a trader
483 2011-03-15 02:49:02 <da2ce7> speculation is saving us from major famine in the furure
484 2011-03-15 02:49:19 <da2ce7> a bit of pain now, (higer pices), less pain in the future.
485 2011-03-15 02:49:23 <blarzong> so if the price of rice is 3x .. when most of the worlds population lives on it... theyre going to be starved.. its a horrific tragedy
486 2011-03-15 02:49:36 <justmoon> Kiba: food price spikes are likely related to beginning US dollar inflation - many smaller and poorer countries like tunesia and egypt have their currencies tied to the dollar, so they get hit by inflation first - since as blarzong correctly points our food staples are the main good people in poor countries can't live without, you see food prices spike first
487 2011-03-15 02:49:47 <da2ce7> better than the price going up 10x in 2 years.
488 2011-03-15 02:49:50 <justmoon> but *all* commodity prices are rising: http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/commodities/futures/
489 2011-03-15 02:49:57 <blarzong> da2ce7: and why would that happen
490 2011-03-15 02:50:13 <Kiba> I don't trade. I sucks at spectulation.
491 2011-03-15 02:50:23 <justmoon> it's inflation, when you print money, prices go up, but different ones at different times
492 2011-03-15 02:50:26 <Kiba> justmoon: the situation is exabbercated by unproductive economies
493 2011-03-15 02:50:32 <da2ce7> blarzong, if price of food was low now, less farmers will be produceing the stuff
494 2011-03-15 02:50:33 <justmoon> and yes, inflation hits the poorest the hardest
495 2011-03-15 02:50:35 <blarzong> commodities prices are disconnected from reality. they are determined by bubble psychology (speculators pile into certain asset classes and form a bubble. they reinforce each other by driving up the prices. until theres a panic and sell-off, the herd moves on to destroy something else)
496 2011-03-15 02:50:48 <da2ce7> so when all our reserves are used up, then the price skyrockets.
497 2011-03-15 02:50:54 <Kiba> the rich(us) can deal with teh food price, but hte poor can't
498 2011-03-15 02:51:16 <justmoon> Kiba: they always blame inflation on bad production, Zimbabwe's central banker Kono blamed food prices in his country on a drought
499 2011-03-15 02:51:24 <blarzong> da2ce7: without speculators, supply and demand would dictate prices yes. now speculation can cause rice to triple in a year. are people suddenly demanding 3 times more rice? its not related to supply and demand at all. its bubble psychology
500 2011-03-15 02:51:36 <blarzong> when did people start eating 3 times as much food
501 2011-03-15 02:51:36 <Kiba> justmoon: lack of infrastructure to deal with the drought
502 2011-03-15 02:51:49 <Kiba> if they have the money, they could have a water desalinater plant to bring enough water
503 2011-03-15 02:51:52 <Kiba> from the ocean
504 2011-03-15 02:52:03 <da2ce7> blarzong, how do you increase production? you raise the price.
505 2011-03-15 02:52:04 <justmoon> Kiba: there was no drought, what was different was that the central bank was printing shitloads of money
506 2011-03-15 02:52:17 <da2ce7> if the price goes up now, that will make more production in the future.
507 2011-03-15 02:52:25 <justmoon> more money chasing the same goods -> prices rise
508 2011-03-15 02:52:39 <blarzong> da2ce7: thats supply and demand. speculation is unrelated to it
509 2011-03-15 02:52:47 <da2ce7> better to have the price rise sooner than later.
510 2011-03-15 02:53:00 <justmoon> the fed has printed shitloads. and blarzong, the "evil speculator" are actually still mostly sitting on it: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/EXCRESNS
511 2011-03-15 02:53:03 <da2ce7> the sooner the price rise, the lower the price rise will be in the long run.
512 2011-03-15 02:53:22 <Kiba> justmoon: but eventually the new money must enter the economy at some point
513 2011-03-15 02:53:31 <blarzong> but you bring up a good point.. how do you define what speculation is exactly.. is a supermarket speculating when it buys parsley in advance.. however the quantities involved make it pretty clear what is speculation and what isnt
514 2011-03-15 02:53:31 <justmoon> Kiba: exactly
515 2011-03-15 02:53:56 <xg0d> they could use haarp to regulate the whole worlds water fall
516 2011-03-15 02:53:57 <xg0d> im just sayin
517 2011-03-15 02:54:13 <blarzong> speculation is equivalent to an army coming to your town, taking all your food and assets by force, and then leaving. money=power. now you must be the armys slave in order to get your assets back
518 2011-03-15 02:54:32 <blarzong> so the bankers march into an asset, buy it up, and now the consumers cant afford it
519 2011-03-15 02:54:32 <da2ce7> blarzong, that is completely wrong.
520 2011-03-15 02:54:40 <blarzong> its entirely accurate
521 2011-03-15 02:54:45 <validus> lol
522 2011-03-15 02:55:16 <validus> so your saying anyone who speculates is a slaver
523 2011-03-15 02:55:22 <blarzong> taking asets by force or by dint of huge liquidity reserves (leveraged 100 times, so they have 100 trillion to corner the market)
524 2011-03-15 02:55:24 <Kiba> spectulators, as I used to be one, die and live by his ability to predict
525 2011-03-15 02:55:25 <blarzong> validus: yes
526 2011-03-15 02:55:29 <validus> lol
527 2011-03-15 02:55:38 <validus> thats the most funniest thing ive heard in weeks
528 2011-03-15 02:55:44 <validus> thank you for that
529 2011-03-15 02:55:47 <blarzong> sometimes the truth makes ppl laugh
530 2011-03-15 02:55:50 <Kiba> I am no good, so I left
531 2011-03-15 02:55:57 <Kiba> blarzong: sometime you're just wrong ;)
532 2011-03-15 02:55:58 <da2ce7> speculations is when you see a resorce being having a higher demand in the future, and want to make money on it's price rise.... The side effect of that is the price rise happens sooner, and in the long run the price will rise to a lower level.
533 2011-03-15 02:55:59 <validus> believe what you need to there buddy
534 2011-03-15 02:56:00 <blarzong> validus: do you really think people arent slaves to money?
535 2011-03-15 02:56:07 <validus> dont forget your tinfoil hat to
536 2011-03-15 02:56:25 <blarzong> heh validus i forgot you live in a world where money doesn't matter
537 2011-03-15 02:56:29 <justmoon> blarzong: cornering the market doesn't do you any good, if you sell or buy at an artificial price people *will* take the opposite position and make a profit off of your loss
538 2011-03-15 02:56:41 <justmoon> blarzong: only when you create a "bubble" can you make a profit
539 2011-03-15 02:56:42 <validus> no i never said that but your thoughts ona speculator are hilarious
540 2011-03-15 02:56:47 <validus> and your way to emotional
541 2011-03-15 02:56:57 <justmoon> cornering the market by itself is just really expensive
542 2011-03-15 02:57:08 <validus> dont have any thought of whats going to change or your a slaver and condemned by your own words
543 2011-03-15 02:57:13 <justmoon> otherwise it would be a popular measure for warring countries
544 2011-03-15 02:57:28 <blarzong> validus: english pls
545 2011-03-15 02:57:31 <da2ce7> cornering the market has deminishing returns.
546 2011-03-15 02:57:42 <validus> its fine english. read it
547 2011-03-15 02:57:50 <blarzong> validus: it's ?
548 2011-03-15 02:57:54 <blarzong> "you're" ?
549 2011-03-15 02:57:54 <Kiba> this is boring
550 2011-03-15 02:57:58 <da2ce7> as the higher the price, the more you need to spend to keep it cornerd.
551 2011-03-15 02:58:00 <blarzong> slaver?
552 2011-03-15 02:58:05 <validus> oh your a grammar nazi now to change the subject cuz i made you ridiculed?
553 2011-03-15 02:58:10 <validus> whatever . your a failed troll
554 2011-03-15 02:58:20 <blarzong> validus: im not, just your chat is becomingly increasingly unparseable
555 2011-03-15 02:58:31 <blarzong> i could care less about grammar, but your last few statements were totally incomprehensible
556 2011-03-15 02:58:33 <validus> and yes im typing your now on purpose just to make your grammer nazi shit even worst.
557 2011-03-15 02:58:34 <blarzong> sorry
558 2011-03-15 02:58:36 <justmoon> da2ce7: it has no returns by itself, remember you have to get rid of your stuff at some point
559 2011-03-15 02:58:40 <validus> no their perfectly comprehensible
560 2011-03-15 02:58:45 <blarzong> validus: youre getting very worked up
561 2011-03-15 02:58:46 <validus> your just mad
562 2011-03-15 02:58:49 <blarzong> have some tea
563 2011-03-15 02:58:49 <Kiba> the amount of chatting and nonsense produced in this channel is becoming unbearable
564 2011-03-15 02:58:50 <validus> LOL
565 2011-03-15 02:59:06 <blarzong> < validus> dont have any thought of whats going to change or your a  slaver and condemned by your own words  <-- this is basically giberrish
566 2011-03-15 02:59:09 <justmoon> da2ce7: if you want to corner the market for wheat, sure you can sell expensive wheat, but eventually you'll have to get rid of the wheat you bought to corner the market
567 2011-03-15 02:59:11 <validus> im going to speculate how many more lines of text i get that make no sense from blarzong
568 2011-03-15 02:59:20 <validus> well put it with the other line then
569 2011-03-15 02:59:30 <blarzong> validus: you are butthurt and spouting gibberish. im not interested. youre ignored
570 2011-03-15 02:59:31 <validus> i need not to explain myself to you
571 2011-03-15 02:59:35 <validus> im not butthurt
572 2011-03-15 02:59:37 <justmoon> da2ce7: that only works ponzi scheme style if you find somebody who believes in the higher price
573 2011-03-15 02:59:40 <da2ce7> justmoon, by that time the production will have cought up to the new pice.
574 2011-03-15 02:59:48 <validus> nothing goes in my butt. your just a damn retard that cant comprehend english or what terms are
575 2011-03-15 02:59:55 <da2ce7> like the tulip
576 2011-03-15 02:59:56 <xg0d> all i know is
577 2011-03-15 02:59:58 <validus> if you speculate your a slaver. wtf kind of b ullshit is that
578 2011-03-15 03:00:01 <justmoon> da2ce7: exactly, making it even more costly to sell off your stuff
579 2011-03-15 03:00:01 <xg0d> organic miilks is bamf
580 2011-03-15 03:00:12 <blarzong> anyway, bankers corner the market through huge liquidity pools just as someone takes property by force. theres no difference whatsoever. speculation is simply parasitic rent-seeking behavior that is disconnected from any fundamental value
581 2011-03-15 03:00:14 <validus> sounds like a failed liberal to me
582 2011-03-15 03:00:29 <blarzong> its a social plague. i know speculators would like ppl to believe they are "helping" everyone by starving ppl in third world countries, sure
583 2011-03-15 03:00:31 <validus> i bet he thinks the guy flipping burgers at burger king should drive a mercedes like the ceo doews
584 2011-03-15 03:00:34 <validus> does*
585 2011-03-15 03:00:41 <xg0d> depends on your idea of liberal
586 2011-03-15 03:00:48 <justmoon> blarzong: I liked you better when you tried to use arguments instead of regurgitated polemic
587 2011-03-15 03:00:50 <validus> in this case extremist
588 2011-03-15 03:00:57 <xg0d> i prefer to choose classic liberalism over everything
589 2011-03-15 03:00:59 <validus> like this dude going off
590 2011-03-15 03:01:06 <xg0d> but not the new age
591 2011-03-15 03:01:22 <da2ce7> blarzong the the problem with your agument, is providing you dont' use violence to obtain your funds, speculation is a benifit to everyone.
592 2011-03-15 03:01:24 <justmoon> xg0d: I'm on board with classic liberalism
593 2011-03-15 03:01:26 <blarzong> the hunger crisis of 2066-2008 was a completely manmade disaster. wall street's bubble resulted in a global disaster for those who couldn't afford basic necessities
594 2011-03-15 03:01:28 <xg0d> i just want to safetly buy an island and make my own country
595 2011-03-15 03:01:30 <validus> thats like the one guy that told me the gov't was telling him to kill himself through the radio
596 2011-03-15 03:01:42 <xg0d> lol
597 2011-03-15 03:01:43 <xg0d> well
598 2011-03-15 03:01:46 <xg0d> what is truth
599 2011-03-15 03:01:52 <blarzong> da2ce7: whats the difference if i take all the wheat crops by force, or if us the legal/banking system to do it?
600 2011-03-15 03:01:52 <validus> but blarzong is just extremist and i think its a failed troll
601 2011-03-15 03:01:54 <xg0d> truth is perception of the world
602 2011-03-15 03:02:00 <validus> if you speculate your a slaver. i think im going to quote that
603 2011-03-15 03:02:02 <xg0d> so perhaps the radio is telling him to kill himself
604 2011-03-15 03:02:31 <x6763> blarzong: if you use the legal system, you are by definition using force...if you use the banking system created by the legal system, you are also by definition using force
605 2011-03-15 03:02:32 <validus> i dont try to comprehend things like that as they have no personal benefit to me :P
606 2011-03-15 03:02:32 <xg0d> i do understand where blarzong is comming from
607 2011-03-15 03:02:44 <da2ce7> blarzong, both is violence, both are causing harm... but speculation wasn't the issue. Force was the issue.
608 2011-03-15 03:02:45 <xg0d> validus lol!!
609 2011-03-15 03:02:57 <justmoon> validus: +1
610 2011-03-15 03:03:00 <x6763> but do not equate violence/force with speculation
611 2011-03-15 03:03:16 <blarzong> ppl have the vague notion they would like prices to reflect actual demand. so that people will not waste valuable resources. thats great. but speculators can effectively corner any market at all of their own choosing (and the decision is made by bubble psychollogy, see shillers latest book titled "animal spirits"). so instead of regulating demand, people are held hostage
612 2011-03-15 03:03:35 <validus> we got another dog whisperer
613 2011-03-15 03:03:47 <da2ce7> speculation is not not a complete subset of violence
614 2011-03-15 03:03:54 <justmoon> blarzong: cornering a market is not speculation (you are not speculating on anything, you know exactly what will happen), so just call it fraud or something else
615 2011-03-15 03:04:06 <validus> funny. he is comparing free thought on something to violence
616 2011-03-15 03:04:07 <blarzong> free market/ supply-side, trickle down economics is not really something anyone can take seriously
617 2011-03-15 03:04:10 <xg0d> i think if we just took the system we have now in america, and tweaked it. say here and there with some socialism and opensource ideas. the whole plan would work, for one,. just decentralize voting and currency.
618 2011-03-15 03:04:13 <validus> i believe someone is a sheep
619 2011-03-15 03:04:27 <xg0d> then correct conflicting laws
620 2011-03-15 03:04:34 <Kiba> oh for the love of Eris, can someone strip his attack from his actual arguments
621 2011-03-15 03:04:40 <da2ce7> justmoon, if you ain't using violence and corner the market, you are being very stupid and giving money away.
622 2011-03-15 03:04:42 <x6763> blarzong: so you believe in violent economics?
623 2011-03-15 03:04:42 <xg0d> like for isntance corporate entities shouldnt hold office in their corporations field
624 2011-03-15 03:04:49 <blarzong> justmoon: except when bubble psychology is involved. traders coordinate their activity because they all want to ride the bubble
625 2011-03-15 03:04:52 <validus> lol kiba
626 2011-03-15 03:04:59 <justmoon> da2ce7: exactly, that's what I've tried to explain
627 2011-03-15 03:05:02 <xg0d> like Mosanto workers shouldnt be FDA chairmen
628 2011-03-15 03:05:09 <x6763> blarzong: you believe that you should force people to make certain economic decisions or use force to prevent them from making certain economics decisions
629 2011-03-15 03:05:12 <x6763> ?
630 2011-03-15 03:05:13 <xg0d> thats a conflict of interest
631 2011-03-15 03:05:14 <blarzong> justmoon: its tacit collusion.. they all have incentive to do the same thing, without overtly coordinating
632 2011-03-15 03:05:37 <validus> no he is saying you shouldnt have any free thought or able to have freedom to do what you want and live basically told how to think and act
633 2011-03-15 03:05:37 <xg0d> there should be no such thing as a career politician
634 2011-03-15 03:05:43 <justmoon> blarzong: yes, but if more people understood economics they'd beware of bubbles
635 2011-03-15 03:05:51 <validus> he is disguising his liberal comments with other forms of polotics
636 2011-03-15 03:05:54 <validus> like marxisms, etc
637 2011-03-15 03:05:58 <xg0d> yea
638 2011-03-15 03:06:00 <xg0d> hmm
639 2011-03-15 03:06:01 <validus> politics*
640 2011-03-15 03:06:04 <Kiba> this is fucking boring
641 2011-03-15 03:06:14 <blarzong> http://www.amazon.com/Animal-Spirits-Psychology-Economy-Capitalism/dp/0691142335  <-- "animal spirits". the market is driven by bubble psychology, not any rational fundamentals or expectations of supply and demand
642 2011-03-15 03:06:29 <dwdollar> Nikkei is down over 12%.  That's almost -20% for anyone counting.  Poor Japan.
643 2011-03-15 03:06:29 <xg0d> i think corporations should label where they get their labor from
644 2011-03-15 03:06:30 <validus> its like a level up troll. you get people interested with real things and slowly work in your real argument
645 2011-03-15 03:06:32 <xg0d> =]
646 2011-03-15 03:06:41 <justmoon> blarzong: counterlink - and mine's a video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk
647 2011-03-15 03:06:41 <xg0d> not just "made in tawain"
648 2011-03-15 03:06:50 <xg0d> but "made in tawian by 6 year olds"
649 2011-03-15 03:06:59 <blarzong> im for maximal freedom and human flourishing. the so-called "free-market" is keeping mankind in perpetual subsistence and bondage. if you want freedom, you are anti-capitalism
650 2011-03-15 03:07:06 <justmoon> blarzong: animal spirit is bullshit economics (yes, it's also mainstream economics right now)
651 2011-03-15 03:07:11 <da2ce7> 'speculation is bad' 'deflation is bad' 'freechoice is bad' 'your mum is bad in bed'
652 2011-03-15 03:07:22 <validus> da2ce7: drink more
653 2011-03-15 03:07:22 <xg0d> deflation is great!
654 2011-03-15 03:07:24 <validus> lol
655 2011-03-15 03:07:45 <justmoon> da2ce7: how do you know how his mum is in bed?
656 2011-03-15 03:07:49 <x6763> blarzong: how anyone can take seriously the idea that people should violently force their beliefs and opinions on others and use violence as the first resort to solving problems?
657 2011-03-15 03:08:03 <blarzong> justmoon: not at all.. behavioral economics has been around for decades. traders chase bubbles. thats all their is to it.
658 2011-03-15 03:08:12 <da2ce7> justmoon, all of the statments were not true...
659 2011-03-15 03:08:13 <xg0d> x6763 that is the human nature when reminded of their mortality
660 2011-03-15 03:08:18 <xg0d> i seen that in a documentary yesterday lol
661 2011-03-15 03:08:24 <validus> lol
662 2011-03-15 03:08:28 <blarzong> x6763: that is what capitalism does. if you believe in violent enforcement of slavery that is capitalism
663 2011-03-15 03:08:30 <justmoon> blarzong: yes, it has been around for millenia even, it's still as wrong today as it was back then
664 2011-03-15 03:08:37 <xg0d> they reminder of death is what drives our actions.
665 2011-03-15 03:08:51 <x6763> blarzong: you sure have a strange definition of capitalism
666 2011-03-15 03:08:55 <validus> im waiting for the koolaid to come out
667 2011-03-15 03:09:01 <validus> or the praise me as your leader
668 2011-03-15 03:09:16 <dirtyfilthy> this koolaid tastes like almonds ;_;
669 2011-03-15 03:09:17 <blarzong> you have a strange definition of strange
670 2011-03-15 03:09:22 <justmoon> blarzong: perhaps wrong is the wrong word - it describes perceived reality, just not ultimate reality - people can at any time choose to rise above "animal spirits"
671 2011-03-15 03:09:31 <xg0d> ive never heard of a shnoze berry
672 2011-03-15 03:09:38 <validus> whats sad is if he really t hinks he is right
673 2011-03-15 03:09:52 <validus> thats a whole mix of alot of things together. pro stalin right there
674 2011-03-15 03:09:55 <da2ce7> koolaid, makes you Keynesian... that is worse than death.
675 2011-03-15 03:09:58 <xg0d> idek whats going on here
676 2011-03-15 03:10:06 <x6763> "capitalism: an economic system based on private ownership of capital"
677 2011-03-15 03:10:07 <xg0d> keynesian lulz everywhere
678 2011-03-15 03:10:18 <xg0d> private ownership is the devil
679 2011-03-15 03:10:22 <blarzong> anyway, if you want to voluntarily be a slave to goldman sachs, and any other trader who can control your networth, thats your decision
680 2011-03-15 03:10:32 <blarzong> ppl interested in freedom do not want to be slaves to the investment bankers
681 2011-03-15 03:10:34 <xg0d> well, unless u privatly own your privates ofcourse
682 2011-03-15 03:10:35 <validus> just kill yourself, end it all
683 2011-03-15 03:11:17 <nanotube> justmoon: that's kind of like saying 'people can at any time choose to stop being stupid'. that's just not realistic. :)
684 2011-03-15 03:11:48 <blarzong> the decision to buy an asset has nothing to do with the fundamental demand for that asset.. it has to do with where global pools of money are resting at any given time.. goldman decides the global pool of liquidity is going to be sitting in commodities, now you cant afford to eat
685 2011-03-15 03:12:07 <blarzong> or houses, now houses are unaffordable.. speculation is just rampant price shocks from one asset to another.. periodically occurring
686 2011-03-15 03:12:09 <nanotube> justmoon: but that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, which i'm not even really following. just figured i'd throw that in for good measure hehe.
687 2011-03-15 03:12:30 <justmoon> nanotube: I'd be all for making an idiot proof world, except for one little thing: in an idiot proof world, people don't have any incentive to get smarter
688 2011-03-15 03:12:50 <da2ce7> sometimes it take a revolution for people to open their eyes and reject Keynesian lies they have been eating.  But with those revolutions you need to provide a functional altanative or else everyone will just slip back into their old habbits.
689 2011-03-15 03:13:04 <blarzong> anyway i think justmoon , validus, da2ce7 are smart guys with an expert grasp of economics...
690 2011-03-15 03:13:31 <Kiba> and we disagree with you
691 2011-03-15 03:13:36 <Kiba> so somebody gottach be right
692 2011-03-15 03:13:59 <FellowTraveler> I swear if Western powers don't go in now and cut off Gaddafi's head, the entire Libyan population will be so disillusioned against the West after this.
693 2011-03-15 03:14:00 <x6763> blarzong: ever read human action?
694 2011-03-15 03:14:49 <Kiba> I am only trained by firece argumentation
695 2011-03-15 03:15:01 <FellowTraveler> If 10,000 people get hit by a tsunami, we send ships right away.  If 10,000 people get bombed by their own dictator, we have tea and lunch in Brussels and we discuss sanctions.
696 2011-03-15 03:15:03 <FellowTraveler> People are dying.
697 2011-03-15 03:15:12 <nanotube> justmoon: as i said, nothing to do with the discussion at hand. :) but this ben franklin quote is relevant: 'We should make the poor uncomfortable, to kick them out of poverty.'. incentives ftw. :)
698 2011-03-15 03:15:32 <FellowTraveler> Might as well dismantle the UN since the whole purpose of it was to shut down dictators killing crowds of people.
699 2011-03-15 03:15:36 <nanotube> FellowTraveler: yep, stupidity as usual.
700 2011-03-15 03:15:43 <blarzong> x6763: yeah parts of it.. he wants prices to reflect actual demand. but it neglects the impact of oligpoolies and ofrces that can set price by fiat. the banks can essentially set the price for any asset they want
701 2011-03-15 03:15:52 <justmoon> nanotube: agreed
702 2011-03-15 03:15:59 <FellowTraveler> Anyway once those people are using free money, dictators probably won't even be possible anymore
703 2011-03-15 03:16:12 <Kiba> oligopolies can't set price by fiat forever
704 2011-03-15 03:16:25 <xg0d> wtf did i just read
705 2011-03-15 03:16:29 <xg0d> oligopolies
706 2011-03-15 03:16:30 <Kiba> eventually their little cartel fall apart because somebody can cheat the agreement and make lot of money
707 2011-03-15 03:16:36 <xg0d> fun word to think
708 2011-03-15 03:16:42 <da2ce7> http://www.fee.org/pdf/books/MarxismUnmasked.pdf
709 2011-03-15 03:16:44 <blarzong> free marketers claim they want prices to be accurate reflections of supply/demand/market forces/so we dont waste things. great. but what if one dictator can set prices (a political dictator, a financial dictator, etc.) goldman has the liquidity to outvote the entire market
710 2011-03-15 03:16:51 <da2ce7> one of the best free books that I have read.
711 2011-03-15 03:16:52 <da2ce7> :)
712 2011-03-15 03:17:04 <FellowTraveler> human action by mises, I recommend even just the first page
713 2011-03-15 03:17:26 <Kiba> the free marketeers do free books
714 2011-03-15 03:17:36 <validus> im curious what makes him an expert
715 2011-03-15 03:17:37 <Kiba> mises.org's library is free for anybody to read
716 2011-03-15 03:17:42 <justmoon> da2ce7: link broken
717 2011-03-15 03:17:50 <blarzong> goldman can decide rice is 10 times more expensive, or houses are worth 25% of their revious value.. because they are in control of huge liquidity reserves (they and their ibank friends / central banks / etc). its a dictatorship not a market
718 2011-03-15 03:17:50 <FellowTraveler> read the book and see.
719 2011-03-15 03:17:55 <da2ce7> hmm, finding a new one
720 2011-03-15 03:18:12 <validus> you suggesting living in a dictatorship just a different one
721 2011-03-15 03:18:32 <validus> your told what you can charge, sell, eat, do, bank, invest, jobs
722 2011-03-15 03:18:41 <blarzong> im suggesting living in a free world, where everyone has the freedom to be happy
723 2011-03-15 03:18:45 <validus> thats what ive gotten from your comments
724 2011-03-15 03:19:09 <blarzong> validus: paste where i said you should follow a dictator. you are suffering from 50 years of capitalist propaganda from early pre-school
725 2011-03-15 03:19:16 <validus> LOL
726 2011-03-15 03:19:21 <blarzong> hehe
727 2011-03-15 03:19:30 <blarzong> i said the complete opposite of what youre claiming
728 2011-03-15 03:19:35 <validus> you need to quit watching tv :P
729 2011-03-15 03:19:57 <Kiba> you guys need to stop making insult and make real arguments like real men of reasons
730 2011-03-15 03:20:10 <da2ce7> what is a good pdf upload site?
731 2011-03-15 03:20:10 <justmoon> Kiba: +1
732 2011-03-15 03:20:25 <justmoon> da2ce7: txtbear.com
733 2011-03-15 03:21:23 <justmoon> (disclaimer: it's actually not that good, but I made it, so yeah, it's the one i'll recommend when somebody asks :P)
734 2011-03-15 03:21:28 <validus> i dont think there is any reasoning but i gotta fix this mysqltcl error
735 2011-03-15 03:21:36 <validus> so bbiab. the joy the joy
736 2011-03-15 03:21:51 <x6763> blarzong: i recommend you re-read *all* of human action, and take the time to understand it, as well as read man, economy, and state (perhaps before reading human action)...you clearly are lacking in economic understanding
737 2011-03-15 03:22:13 <da2ce7> https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B1vBlIVORn8nZmVmNTJlMjEtNGNjYy00MTFlLTkyNjctNjk0MTk1MDYwOTY3&hl=en_GB
738 2011-03-15 03:22:22 <blarzong> x6763: not at all
739 2011-03-15 03:22:38 <blarzong> x6763: ive correctly explained the basic tenets of supply and demand to you. you dont have to understand
740 2011-03-15 03:22:56 <blarzong> im not really here to convince you of basic facts. for that you can spend some time in a library or take a course in econ 101
741 2011-03-15 03:23:00 <blarzong> i can tutor you for a fee
742 2011-03-15 03:23:54 <justmoon> blarzong: dude supply and demand doesn't support what you're saying, the price moves *with* the trade, it's not like you can buy low and sell high, your own trades will move the market up and down
743 2011-03-15 03:23:57 <blarzong> x6763: also you should know that "human action" isnt mainstream economics. so claiming mises==economics is hilariously naive
744 2011-03-15 03:24:11 <da2ce7> and if you have a open mind, read Atlas Shugged... but rerember that book is a 'so-close yet so far' book.
745 2011-03-15 03:24:39 <blarzong> rand lol
746 2011-03-15 03:24:39 <x6763> you've poorly explained some high-level/emergent effects of supply and demand, but have failed to display any knowledge of the underlying actions that give arise to the high-level effects
747 2011-03-15 03:24:57 <blarzong> x6763: you are a fountain of nonsense. but thanks anyway for making me laugh
748 2011-03-15 03:24:59 <da2ce7> blarzong do you want what popular 'economics' or economics that works.
749 2011-03-15 03:25:19 <x6763> blarzong: i'm quite aware that mises is not mainstream economics...what is naive is to assume that because something is mainstream it must be correct
750 2011-03-15 03:25:24 <blarzong> da2ce7: nope, my argument was that he doesn't have a basic grasp of what economics is and what mises is
751 2011-03-15 03:25:56 <blarzong> x6763: you claimed that mises was necessary to understand economics as a disciplin. which is hilari
752 2011-03-15 03:26:10 <da2ce7> lol, well I have a resonable well established view of economics, I can say what my younger brother gets teached at uni is pure crap most of the time.
753 2011-03-15 03:26:14 <blarzong> x6763: you are seriously misinformed.l i doubt youve ever read a basic book on economics
754 2011-03-15 03:26:35 <blarzong> besides some freemarket fairy tales
755 2011-03-15 03:26:50 <da2ce7> my brother studies 'economics' at uni.
756 2011-03-15 03:27:14 <justmoon> blarzong: "fairy tales" - your very language betrays that you're not considering the other side beyond what other people told you to think about it
757 2011-03-15 03:27:18 <blarzong> x6763: learn what supply and demand is, the time value theory of money, how financial instruments work.. come back to the discussion when you have basic vocabulary and concepts down. "mises" is more philospohy than economics
758 2011-03-15 03:27:38 <blarzong> justmoon: "free market fairy tales" is my own asessment
759 2011-03-15 03:27:47 <justmoon> fairy tales is a term somebody would only ever use to discourage somebody from investigating a subject
760 2011-03-15 03:27:52 <validus> why such hostility on any point brought up from someone?
761 2011-03-15 03:28:06 <blarzong> justmoon: why would i encourage someone to investigate patent nonsense?
762 2011-03-15 03:28:08 <Blitzboom> justmoon: whats the update on the video? :P
763 2011-03-15 03:28:08 <validus> sounds defensive
764 2011-03-15 03:28:25 <da2ce7> blarzong, 1st mistake, to seperate philsophy and economics... they are itmately intertwined.
765 2011-03-15 03:28:31 <xg0d> to understand about patents so they can make the decison for themselves?
766 2011-03-15 03:28:33 <justmoon> blarzong: it isn't nonsense, just like your side isn't nonsense
767 2011-03-15 03:28:42 <justmoon> the truth is more complicated than talking points
768 2011-03-15 03:28:43 <blarzong> this is not an itneresting discussion. you are regurgitating nonsense that no one takes seriously.. im not interested
769 2011-03-15 03:28:51 <blarzong> ///last x6
770 2011-03-15 03:28:57 <blarzong> read that to see
771 2011-03-15 03:29:00 <Kiba> blarzong: you make uninteresting arguments
772 2011-03-15 03:29:13 <justmoon> Blitzboom: I was gonna write a status report, instead I debated economics for several hours
773 2011-03-15 03:29:13 <Kiba> rather you make no arguments at all, instead resorting to attacks and assertions
774 2011-03-15 03:29:22 <blarzong> ive made many argument and no attacks
775 2011-03-15 03:29:25 <Blitzboom> heh
776 2011-03-15 03:29:29 <Kiba> bullshit
777 2011-03-15 03:29:35 <blarzong> Kiba: not bullshit
778 2011-03-15 03:29:40 <justmoon> Blitzboom: I shall venture to the forums and write one now
779 2011-03-15 03:29:44 <Blitzboom> short: everything according to plan?
780 2011-03-15 03:29:47 <blarzong> kiba: you are primarily a troll. ignored.
781 2011-03-15 03:29:51 <Blitzboom> alright ;)
782 2011-03-15 03:29:53 <Kiba> what the fuck?
783 2011-03-15 03:30:00 <x6763> lol, kiba's certainly no troll
784 2011-03-15 03:30:04 <blarzong> haha look at these freemarket trolls regurgitating voodoo economics from the 1980s.. its the most hilarious thing ive ever seen
785 2011-03-15 03:30:17 <nanotube> justmoon: the guy's been acting trollish for the past few days... you'll save yourself some time to walk away from the discussion. :)
786 2011-03-15 03:30:23 <Kiba> dude, calling them trolls and making fun of their argument is actually no argument
787 2011-03-15 03:30:28 <dirtyfilthy> 1) buy mdma from silkroad 2) distribute to channel 3) ???? 4) PROFIT!
788 2011-03-15 03:30:48 <blarzong> ive explained the basic principles of economics to anyone who cared to learn. if you dont want to learn, you dont have to.
789 2011-03-15 03:30:56 <Kiba> real men don't make fun of their opponent, instead, cooly refuting their reasoning
790 2011-03-15 03:31:02 <blarzong> im not interested in repeating what the rest of the world knows
791 2011-03-15 03:31:09 <validus> its alright kiba: as stated before he is just trying to get fee's for tutoring to teach it
792 2011-03-15 03:31:12 <blarzong> i havent made fun of anyone
793 2011-03-15 03:31:35 <blarzong> insults were lobbed at me by ppl whove obviously never cracked open a book on ecomonics in their lives heh
794 2011-03-15 03:31:37 <validus> it seems kind of childish the way blatant attacks have been thrown at people by you
795 2011-03-15 03:31:41 <davex__> just like how you explained how bitcoin is broken because the block chain is too short?
796 2011-03-15 03:31:57 <validus> so he just admitted that the expert on economics was all sarcasm and a troll
797 2011-03-15 03:32:02 <justmoon> nanotube: next time tell me beforehand - daym :)
798 2011-03-15 03:32:06 <blarzong> heh what
799 2011-03-15 03:32:13 <validus> +comment from earlier
800 2011-03-15 03:32:32 <Kiba> real men of reasoning don't call their opponent trolls or "free market fanatasy"
801 2011-03-15 03:32:35 <Kiba> that's just a fucking insult
802 2011-03-15 03:32:49 <bt2100> slush: thank you for helping me setup my miner client earlier!
803 2011-03-15 03:32:58 <blarzong> kiba: im sorry if you are insulted by a realistic and accurate assessment of theories that arent taken seriously by anyone
804 2011-03-15 03:33:05 <blarzong> kiba: maybe the truth hurts? that wasnt my intention
805 2011-03-15 03:33:09 <validus> (11:13:12) (blarzong) anyway i think justmoon , validus, da2ce7 are smart guys with an expert grasp of economics...
806 2011-03-15 03:33:16 <validus> how is that not an insult? when you just admitted to it
807 2011-03-15 03:33:28 <blarzong> a compliment is now an insult?
808 2011-03-15 03:33:37 <da2ce7> next time that we get somebody that wants to debate one of the common one: 'speculation is bad', 'deflation is bad', etc. just redirect them to the relavant forum thread.
809 2011-03-15 03:33:39 <validus> you've only attacked people as a result
810 2011-03-15 03:33:52 <validus> (11:31:43) (blarzong) insults were lobbed at me by ppl whove obviously never cracked open a book on ecomonics in their lives heh
811 2011-03-15 03:33:53 <blarzong> validus: i attacked no one
812 2011-03-15 03:33:55 <genjix> > 2k posts
813 2011-03-15 03:33:55 <justmoon> validus: it was more to say that we're experts, but he's a *real* expert
814 2011-03-15 03:33:57 <Kiba> blarzong: what a strawman
815 2011-03-15 03:34:03 <genjix> > on irc saturday/friday night
816 2011-03-15 03:34:03 <validus> every one of us has made a comment
817 2011-03-15 03:34:07 <genjix> > is a real man
818 2011-03-15 03:34:11 <genjix> lol ok
819 2011-03-15 03:34:13 <blarzong> heh
820 2011-03-15 03:34:24 <bt2100> i'm just here to talk about bitcoin =\n332594
821 2011-03-15 03:34:27 <validus> go take a prozac
822 2011-03-15 03:34:29 <blarzong> i dont have time to correct them all
823 2011-03-15 03:34:29 <Kiba> blarzong: you called me a troll
824 2011-03-15 03:34:36 <blarzong> kiba: which is true
825 2011-03-15 03:34:40 <validus> i thought i was on ignore anyways
826 2011-03-15 03:34:49 <davex__> blarzong, so keynes is real economics, or what?
827 2011-03-15 03:34:49 <justmoon> blarzong: yeah, I've debated in enemy territory, I know how you feel :)
828 2011-03-15 03:34:50 <validus> i may have not of been here that long but kiba is no troll
829 2011-03-15 03:34:51 <blarzong> validus: i unignored you, but i might put you back on
830 2011-03-15 03:34:55 <blarzong> davex__: no
831 2011-03-15 03:34:57 <validus> i wish you would
832 2011-03-15 03:34:58 <Kiba> for the record, I never called blarzong a troll
833 2011-03-15 03:34:58 <validus> lol
834 2011-03-15 03:35:07 <validus> i did for the record
835 2011-03-15 03:35:25 <validus> he tried to sell a tutoring service in the middle of it
836 2011-03-15 03:35:28 <blarzong> kiba: im not interested in what you said really. but you did say something aong the lines of "you are not manly because your argument is an insult"
837 2011-03-15 03:35:34 <blarzong> i never insulted anyone at all
838 2011-03-15 03:35:48 <Kiba> you called me a troll
839 2011-03-15 03:35:50 <Kiba> that's an insult
840 2011-03-15 03:36:07 <justmoon> ok who here thinks this discussion is still productive?
841 2011-03-15 03:36:10 <blarzong> you are personally offended that "free market economics" is considered a hoax like astrology or phrenology by most people inthe field? im really sorry for you, but i cant lie to make you hapy can i?
842 2011-03-15 03:36:17 <Kiba> you also called free markeeter's arguments a bunch of fanatasy
843 2011-03-15 03:36:21 <blarzong> Kiba: but you are a troll. i wont lie to make you happy
844 2011-03-15 03:36:23 <x6763> justmoon: i'm not sure it was ever productive
845 2011-03-15 03:36:27 <blarzong> kiba: it is. so what?
846 2011-03-15 03:36:34 <Kiba> blarzong: back it up.
847 2011-03-15 03:36:35 <blarzong> kiba: you are complaining that im teling the truth.
848 2011-03-15 03:36:39 <blarzong> kiba: i did
849 2011-03-15 03:36:44 <Kiba> no, I am complaining that you have no substance
850 2011-03-15 03:36:50 <Kiba> you didn't.
851 2011-03-15 03:37:01 <blarzong> kiba: i did. i wont repeat what ive already repeated
852 2011-03-15 03:37:15 <blarzong> kiba: you can scroll back or enroll in an economics course at your local college
853 2011-03-15 03:37:22 <davex__> blarzong, so you don't like keynes... chicago school?
854 2011-03-15 03:37:25 <x6763> blarzong: you made an assertion that kiba is a troll, but you have not shown that his actions in this room fit the definition of a troll
855 2011-03-15 03:37:28 <blarzong> davex__: neither
856 2011-03-15 03:37:29 <Kiba> I studied macroeconomic, which is a bunch of horshshit
857 2011-03-15 03:37:40 <davex__> blarzong, Marxian?
858 2011-03-15 03:37:42 <validus> im still waiting to see how he was a troll to
859 2011-03-15 03:37:47 <Kiba> but then I have to substantiate my arguments as well
860 2011-03-15 03:37:50 <justmoon> davex__: love how you assume everybody's opinion has to fit with a "school"
861 2011-03-15 03:37:52 <validus> he has some marxist interests in there
862 2011-03-15 03:37:57 <validus> but its mixed with some others
863 2011-03-15 03:37:59 <blarzong> x6763: i did. you dont have to be convinced. you've demonstrated an inability to make accurate statements, so your input is basically fruitless
864 2011-03-15 03:38:29 <davex__> justmoon, as mises pointed out, it's a rare person that has original thought
865 2011-03-15 03:38:53 <justmoon> davex__: that doesn't mean you can't pick the best from everybody and make up your own mind
866 2011-03-15 03:39:03 <Kiba> it takes a lot of energy for me to consider arguments on their merit
867 2011-03-15 03:39:06 <Kiba> I have to think really hard
868 2011-03-15 03:39:19 <blarzong> kiba and x6763 are both trolls
869 2011-03-15 03:39:19 <davex__> justmoon, agreed.  but then should give credit where it's due
870 2011-03-15 03:39:19 <Kiba> I mean, like really sit down and sniff
871 2011-03-15 03:39:30 <blarzong> im sorry if the truth offends :)
872 2011-03-15 03:39:47 <x6763> blarzong: if you can't back up your statements, there's no real point in you being here, as you will not have any credibility...please show us how kiba is a troll or admit that he is not...maybe you can start with showing us that you know what a troll is by sharing the definition with us?
873 2011-03-15 03:39:52 <validus> so now if your not an elitest you cant argue
874 2011-03-15 03:39:54 <validus> lol
875 2011-03-15 03:39:57 <davex__> i don't even know what he's arguing for
876 2011-03-15 03:40:02 <justmoon> davex__: "the key to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources" - Albery Einstein
877 2011-03-15 03:40:06 <justmoon> albert*
878 2011-03-15 03:40:13 <blarzong> x6763: credibility with a troll who doesn't have a basic grasp of the topic at hand? lmao. your input is worthless on this topic
879 2011-03-15 03:40:23 <Kiba> bitcoin is a original thought!
880 2011-03-15 03:40:24 <Kiba> kinda
881 2011-03-15 03:40:31 <Kiba> Satoshi reinvent Wei Dai's idea
882 2011-03-15 03:40:32 <davex__> yeah
883 2011-03-15 03:40:45 <davex__> with lots of misesian influence
884 2011-03-15 03:40:57 <justmoon> Kiba: any invention or idea, if you're familiar enough with it, has predecessors
885 2011-03-15 03:41:00 <Kiba> nobodys know what Satoshi really thought
886 2011-03-15 03:41:11 <Kiba> nobody knows*
887 2011-03-15 03:41:13 <x6763> blarzong: i think the number of people here that find you to be credible at all is very small...so why come here to talk with a bunch of people that don't like you or don't value your opinions?
888 2011-03-15 03:41:17 <blarzong> x6763: who would ever bother trying to convince you? you've admitted you dont know what economics is (you imagined mises is economics, rather than an outlier branch of philosophy)
889 2011-03-15 03:41:37 <Kiba> proper argumentation and reasoning a fucking bitch
890 2011-03-15 03:41:49 <validus> he already said he wont take anyones comments that are not an "expert" so unless your a proved elitest theres no real point
891 2011-03-15 03:41:54 <blarzong> x6763: i dont think it matters to anyone if a bunch of trolls dont want to agree with reality
892 2011-03-15 03:42:00 <Kiba> is that so?
893 2011-03-15 03:42:00 <validus> im just going to add to ignore cuz its gotten sad now and just isnt funny
894 2011-03-15 03:42:07 <Kiba> well, I ignored his ass anyway
895 2011-03-15 03:42:11 <x6763> blarzong: so you just like chatting with the "trolls"?
896 2011-03-15 03:42:13 <dirtyfilthy> this channel is reminding me of why i dropped out in my third year of a philosophy degree at university
897 2011-03-15 03:42:22 <nanotube> dirtyfilthy: lol
898 2011-03-15 03:42:24 <validus> dirtyfilthy: dont let one retard ruin your irc
899 2011-03-15 03:42:25 <davex__> blarzong, so why are you interested in bitcoin if you're anti free market
900 2011-03-15 03:42:26 <validus> lol
901 2011-03-15 03:42:27 <blarzong> x6763: does the opinoin of 5 trolls somehow amount to anything? lol. does the opinion of 5 ppl who areunfamiliar w/economics matter to anyone? lol
902 2011-03-15 03:42:38 <justmoon> dirtyfilthy: what the fuck were you thinking picking philosophy in the first place :D
903 2011-03-15 03:42:38 <x6763> blarzong: why are you here?
904 2011-03-15 03:42:44 <blarzong> i have a pedagogical instint.. i like to teach ppl
905 2011-03-15 03:42:53 <Kiba> justmoon: I find philosophy class interesting
906 2011-03-15 03:42:55 <blarzong> davex__: im not any of th ethings youve claimed.. sorry
907 2011-03-15 03:43:01 <Kiba> I get to poke holes in Aristole and Plato's theories
908 2011-03-15 03:43:02 <blarzong> x6763:  why are you here?
909 2011-03-15 03:43:06 <validus> if i had him as a teacher id make the news for shooting them
910 2011-03-15 03:43:07 <validus> lol
911 2011-03-15 03:43:10 <blarzong> x6763: youre clearly a troll
912 2011-03-15 03:43:17 <justmoon> Kiba: philosophy is for nerds who can't grasp basic programming
913 2011-03-15 03:43:19 <dirtyfilthy> justmoon: i was really interested in ethics and aethsetics
914 2011-03-15 03:43:26 <validus> so much name calling lol
915 2011-03-15 03:43:28 <validus> are they drunk?
916 2011-03-15 03:43:42 <blarzong> x6763: "read mises" is not a valid form of argument when talking about basic laws of supply and demand.
917 2011-03-15 03:43:55 <blarzong> that would be like "listen to the beatles" if you want to understand sound waves duuude
918 2011-03-15 03:43:56 <davex__> blarzong, so...  not interested in bitcoin then, just hanging out here to annoy people?
919 2011-03-15 03:44:00 <Kiba> minutes you spend making bad arguments, you could be making bitcoin
920 2011-03-15 03:44:04 <validus> ya no more of him
921 2011-03-15 03:44:06 <x6763> blarzong: it was merely a recommendation, not an attempt at explaining anything
922 2011-03-15 03:44:12 <validus> <3 ignore
923 2011-03-15 03:44:19 <blarzong> davex__: youve asked me 10 questions, all of which ive said no. stop asking me questions.
924 2011-03-15 03:44:22 <blarzong> davex__: ignored
925 2011-03-15 03:44:25 <davex__> haha
926 2011-03-15 03:44:30 <Kiba> let make BITCOIN!
927 2011-03-15 03:44:34 <bt2100> i'd be mining more bitcoins if i could make my piece of crap GPU on my video card work
928 2011-03-15 03:44:38 <blarzong> x6763: do you have a point troll?
929 2011-03-15 03:44:39 <blarzong> lol
930 2011-03-15 03:44:47 <blarzong> x6763: get to a point or stfu. youre not interesting
931 2011-03-15 03:44:50 <x6763> troll: someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community , such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion
932 2011-03-15 03:44:51 <validus> im making coin just very slowly atm lol
933 2011-03-15 03:45:06 <Kiba> http://gameideas.witcoin.com/p/458/Celluar-RTS
934 2011-03-15 03:45:08 <validus> lol x6763
935 2011-03-15 03:45:09 <Kiba> validus: mining?
936 2011-03-15 03:45:13 <lfm> youre gpu doesnt work?
937 2011-03-15 03:45:18 <blarzong> x6763: pasting wikipedia is also not interesting
938 2011-03-15 03:45:18 <validus> ya just horrible gpu
939 2011-03-15 03:45:29 <blarzong> x6763: you have 2 seconds before you go into the ignore pile
940 2011-03-15 03:45:29 <lfm> take it back to the store
941 2011-03-15 03:45:34 <bt2100> lfm no i just can't decide which mining client to use on my debian box with this nvidia 8800
942 2011-03-15 03:45:39 <Kiba> I make bitcoin by posting content on witcoin.com
943 2011-03-15 03:45:54 <x6763> blarzong: that's actually from the "internet & cyber crime terms and definitions" at pursuitmag.com
944 2011-03-15 03:45:58 <validus> i'll check it out
945 2011-03-15 03:45:59 <blarzong> i prefer to chat with folks who dont reject the basic tents of reality
946 2011-03-15 03:46:10 <blarzong> x6763: i could care less what you cut and paste. im sure no one else hear cares either
947 2011-03-15 03:46:17 <blarzong> ignored
948 2011-03-15 03:46:17 <dirtyfilthy> i think reality is largely up for grabs
949 2011-03-15 03:46:21 <justmoon> Kiba: when I reply, who does that money go to?
950 2011-03-15 03:46:22 <lfm> bt2100: use a cuda miner
951 2011-03-15 03:46:34 <bt2100> lfm: gotta link? i'd love to give it a spin.
952 2011-03-15 03:47:00 <justmoon> dirtyfilthy: very true, whenever you think you're right, you're probably wrong about that
953 2011-03-15 03:47:06 <lfm> just look ing the bitcoin forum for cuda miner
954 2011-03-15 03:47:12 <`Jaka> hey
955 2011-03-15 03:47:16 <Kiba> justmoon: I don't know. I don't have a clear idea of where the money goes
956 2011-03-15 03:47:17 <blarzong> its funny ppl think the freemarket = unlimited power for a group of financial dictators / banks. when its the complete opposite
957 2011-03-15 03:47:17 <`Jaka> https://github.com/m0mchil/poclbm
958 2011-03-15 03:47:21 <`Jaka> when i run it
959 2011-03-15 03:47:24 <Kiba> witcoin.com needs more transparency
960 2011-03-15 03:47:35 <blarzong> the propaganda has been instilled in them from an early age and they cant fathom a worl where they are not slaves to a group of bankers
961 2011-03-15 03:47:36 <`Jaka> https://github.com/m0mchil/poclbm <- when i run this, why do i keep on sending duplicates?
962 2011-03-15 03:48:00 <justmoon> Kiba: found it: "When a post/reply is posted, the 0.01 fee is split between the site and the owner of the category"
963 2011-03-15 03:48:17 <justmoon> Kiba: from help page
964 2011-03-15 03:48:37 <Kiba> if you reply on that celluar RTS thread, I make money :)
965 2011-03-15 03:48:59 <lfm> justmoon: category? are you playing jepordy?
966 2011-03-15 03:49:13 <Kiba> I created the category ideas for games
967 2011-03-15 03:49:18 <Kiba> I assume that I make money
968 2011-03-15 03:50:13 <justmoon> lfm: witcoin.com
969 2011-03-15 03:50:35 <`Jaka> hi
970 2011-03-15 03:51:25 <bt2100> hi `Jaka, i see you but i don't know enough to help you. = sorry.
971 2011-03-15 03:51:32 <`Jaka> ok
972 2011-03-15 03:51:33 <`Jaka> np
973 2011-03-15 03:51:55 <blarzongo> so it looks like the freemarket trolls have admitted defeat
974 2011-03-15 03:52:13 <blarzongo> you might as well try to convince me that astrology is real
975 2011-03-15 03:52:37 <Kiba> so the tyrant of bad arguments have left!
976 2011-03-15 03:52:54 <blarzongo> saying argument is bad doesn't constitute an actual argument
977 2011-03-15 03:52:55 <blarzongo> fail
978 2011-03-15 03:52:55 <bt2100> wow gpu vs cpu bitcoin generation performance is staggering
979 2011-03-15 03:52:58 <validus> arg hate when people change nicks and i only ignored nicknames
980 2011-03-15 03:53:20 <justmoon> bt2100: yep, gpu's are made for that sort of thing :)
981 2011-03-15 03:53:33 <blarzongo> validus: you got butthurt when i exposed through basic exposition of reality why freemarket fundamentalism is crackpot nonsense. this angered you. i didnt mean to upset you
982 2011-03-15 03:53:47 <bt2100> justmoon: ya i was just surprised that even my low end Nvidia card is stomping my cpu
983 2011-03-15 03:54:15 <justmoon> bt2100: you're lucky, my low end ati card doesn't support opencl :>