1 2011-03-16 00:02:29 <luke-jr> genjix: afaik, usually they just double it
  2 2011-03-16 00:02:43 <luke-jr> eg, if they had 100 shares total before, now they have 200 and everyone who held a share has 2x
  3 2011-03-16 00:02:57 <luke-jr> (and they're worth half as much each)
  4 2011-03-16 00:03:13 <genjix> but after you issue a share, you can't go back and change what you wrote...
  5 2011-03-16 00:03:27 <genjix> an issued share is fixed, right?
  6 2011-03-16 00:04:19 <luke-jr> dunno
  7 2011-03-16 00:04:39 <luke-jr> I have a theory.
  8 2011-03-16 00:04:46 <luke-jr> I think OTC may be killing MtGox
  9 2011-03-16 00:05:03 <jgarzik> a stock split creates 2,000,000 shares from 1,000,000 shares, where every shareholder receives one additional share, for every share they own.
 10 2011-03-16 00:05:19 <jgarzik> a dilution is simply when a company creates new shares from thin air.  every shareholder's shares are worth just a little bit less.
 11 2011-03-16 00:05:33 <genjix> ok thank
 12 2011-03-16 00:05:34 <genjix> s
 13 2011-03-16 00:05:59 <xelister> I don't get JP.  Main producent of robots and human-like robots and all.  And home of GiTS.  And yet they have only people manually fixing the Fukushima (soon radiation levels at the plant may be leathal for humans).  Why they didnt prepare some robots for *that* tasks
 14 2011-03-16 00:06:05 <molecular> luke-jr, explain
 15 2011-03-16 00:06:29 <luke-jr> molecular: well, if people want to trade, they can just go to OTC and get a better price, without moving the market
 16 2011-03-16 00:06:32 <ArtForz> xelister: because it's *hard*
 17 2011-03-16 00:06:38 <xelister> ArtForz: I know
 18 2011-03-16 00:06:40 <xelister> obviously
 19 2011-03-16 00:06:54 <ArtForz> losing a bunch of human workers every few decades is a lot cheaper overall
 20 2011-03-16 00:06:56 <luke-jr> molecular: and as a result, MtGox moves less, and OTC people tend to use it as a point of reference
 21 2011-03-16 00:07:05 <xelister> but you could build some specialized robots e.g. on wheels or spider-like to do specialized task like moving ruble outside,  carrying water
 22 2011-03-16 00:07:11 <ArtForz> sure
 23 2011-03-16 00:07:22 <luke-jr> so inevitably, everyone's price will be "95% of MtGox market" or "105% of MtGox market"
 24 2011-03-16 00:07:29 <xelister> hardest part is to make robot like a human with cool looks and all... why dont they use more automatized vehicles
 25 2011-03-16 00:07:33 <luke-jr> creating an infinite loop that is never filled
 26 2011-03-16 00:07:56 <ArtForz> we've been using robots to inspect/repair chernobyl for over a decade now
 27 2011-03-16 00:08:05 <xelister> ArtForz: I know.  that  is why Im asking :)
 28 2011-03-16 00:08:22 <xelister> I would suspect JP would be the one country to have few such things at standby at own atomic plants
 29 2011-03-16 00:08:29 <xelister> because it is best in this
 30 2011-03-16 00:08:30 <ArtForz> thing is, if you already know the task, building a robot for it is usually quite easy
 31 2011-03-16 00:09:24 <xelister> also.. how the mobile power generators "didnt fit"... they like, missplaced an universal power plug O_o ? didnt had a team of engeeners?  (Im not criticising because probably it is very hard... but asking)
 32 2011-03-16 00:09:41 <ArtForz> I think something got really lost in translation there
 33 2011-03-16 00:09:50 <jgarzik> remotely controlled vehicles are easy.  robots are hard.  :)
 34 2011-03-16 00:09:58 <ArtForz> same difference
 35 2011-03-16 00:10:09 <ArtForz> my only guess is the plant gennys use some really weird voltage/frequency
 36 2011-03-16 00:10:17 <Kiba`> robot's circuits get fried by radiation ya know
 37 2011-03-16 00:10:18 <luke-jr> xelister: my understanding is the plugs were measured in feet diameter
 38 2011-03-16 00:10:27 <ArtForz> iirc they were able to power *some* aux systems with the flown-in generators
 39 2011-03-16 00:10:29 <luke-jr> and the generators were vehicular size
 40 2011-03-16 00:10:37 <ArtForz> Kiba`: not really
 41 2011-03-16 00:11:12 <ArtForz> a micron+ chip can withstand a LOT of radiation
 42 2011-03-16 00:11:15 <Kiba`> hmm
 43 2011-03-16 00:11:19 <Kiba`> the 80s are 30 years ago
 44 2011-03-16 00:11:20 <luke-jr> so yeah& if some multi-foot-diameter plug doesn't fit, you won't easily be able to fix it
 45 2011-03-16 00:11:26 <Kiba`> the 60s is 50 years ago
 46 2011-03-16 00:11:33 <Kiba`> old
 47 2011-03-16 00:11:44 <TheKid> luke-jr: get some speaker cable and solder a quick hack :P
 48 2011-03-16 00:11:47 <genjix> ArtForz: doesn't it depend on the radiation?
 49 2011-03-16 00:11:53 <genjix> how ionising it is
 50 2011-03-16 00:12:10 <luke-jr> TheKid: speaker cable is nowhere near the right gague
 51 2011-03-16 00:12:11 <ArtForz> genjix: well, I was assuming fast+thermal neutron radiation...
 52 2011-03-16 00:12:13 <xelister> also...
 53 2011-03-16 00:12:25 <genjix> ok
 54 2011-03-16 00:12:28 <xelister> why they didnt like like use a lot of UPSes ;)
 55 2011-03-16 00:12:36 <xelister> ok Im joking with UPSes, but some battery system
 56 2011-03-16 00:12:41 <luke-jr> they did
 57 2011-03-16 00:12:42 <ArtForz> they did have one
 58 2011-03-16 00:12:42 <genjix> and also circuits would be shielded from alpha particles anyway
 59 2011-03-16 00:12:43 <TheKid> luke-jr: I know, joke
 60 2011-03-16 00:12:44 <luke-jr> it lasted 8 hours
 61 2011-03-16 00:12:46 <ArtForz> it lasted 8 hours
 62 2011-03-16 00:12:48 <xelister> =)
 63 2011-03-16 00:12:57 <luke-jr> ArtForz: copycat
 64 2011-03-16 00:13:06 <xelister> should had planned it for as long as it takes to cool down core
 65 2011-03-16 00:13:10 <ArtForz> yeah
 66 2011-03-16 00:13:20 <ArtForz> not to mention newer plants have a *way* better system
 67 2011-03-16 00:13:21 <luke-jr> xelister: that's what the generators were for
 68 2011-03-16 00:13:31 <TheKid> xelister, the batteries were oh fuck everything is going wrong level of defense
 69 2011-03-16 00:13:34 <Netsniper> http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/47595.html
 70 2011-03-16 00:13:35 <ArtForz> small auxiliary turbine+generator sets
 71 2011-03-16 00:13:41 <TheKid> the generators and backups should have kicked on
 72 2011-03-16 00:13:44 <TheKid> but they were swamped
 73 2011-03-16 00:13:59 <ArtForz> hint: if the core is hot, it makes steam, which can be used to drive a small low-pressure turbine...
 74 2011-03-16 00:14:02 <luke-jr> xelister: they only designed these plants for 8.2 magnitude
 75 2011-03-16 00:14:07 <luke-jr> not the 5 times bigger 9.0 mag
 76 2011-03-16 00:14:37 <ArtForz> well, so far it looks like the earthquake didnt really do much damage
 77 2011-03-16 00:14:37 <luke-jr> ArtForz: yeah, that one should have been obvious
 78 2011-03-16 00:14:49 <luke-jr> ArtForz: I concur. Tokyo Tower is still standing
 79 2011-03-16 00:14:54 <luke-jr> which means Yuuki might live
 80 2011-03-16 00:15:01 <Kiba`> lol
 81 2011-03-16 00:15:06 <ArtForz> luke-jr: newer BWRs have exactly that as a backup-backup
 82 2011-03-16 00:15:27 <ArtForz> and batteries as a backup-backup-backup
 83 2011-03-16 00:15:47 <TheKid> luke-jr: I'm pretty sure it was 8.9, and that that was a 7x bigger quake
 84 2011-03-16 00:15:58 <xelister> hmm
 85 2011-03-16 00:16:01 <Kiba`> I trust more nuclear plants more than I trust the cab driver or myself in cars
 86 2011-03-16 00:16:05 <TheKid> might be wrong but that's what my source told me
 87 2011-03-16 00:16:13 <xelister> couldnt they just put all generators underground?
 88 2011-03-16 00:16:19 <xelister> or actually, entire plant underground
 89 2011-03-16 00:16:20 <luke-jr> TheKid: it was upgraded to 9.0, and it's 5x
 90 2011-03-16 00:16:23 <xelister> and seall that with concrete
 91 2011-03-16 00:16:29 <TheKid> luke-jr: good to know :)
 92 2011-03-16 00:16:30 <ArtForz> xelister: hindsight, 50/50
 93 2011-03-16 00:16:33 <xelister> then it would totally ignore any tsunami
 94 2011-03-16 00:16:39 <luke-jr> 6.3x to be exact
 95 2011-03-16 00:16:43 <TheKid> yeah, but waves were never expected to get that high up :P
 96 2011-03-16 00:16:46 <Kiba`> xelister: but they would have to be airtight
 97 2011-03-16 00:16:49 <TheKid> /far in
 98 2011-03-16 00:16:53 <ArtForz> the location for the backup gens simply wasnt chosen for a *that* big tsunami
 99 2011-03-16 00:16:57 <Kiba`> what if some poor operator dude is stuck on the surface?
100 2011-03-16 00:17:06 <luke-jr> xelister: underground would have been hit worse I bet
101 2011-03-16 00:17:22 <TheKid> and nuclear all the way. Considering the crazy power of that earthquake and how absolutely nothing bad for the country happened, as opposed to the exploding oil/gas/coal plants, overturned cars, etc
102 2011-03-16 00:17:22 <xelister> well ok
103 2011-03-16 00:17:31 <TheKid> the only logical choice
104 2011-03-16 00:17:33 <xelister> but one idea... wouldnt that be not so hard to do
105 2011-03-16 00:17:44 <luke-jr> TheKid: Germany shutdown all their nuclear plants, I hear
106 2011-03-16 00:17:50 <ArtForz> errr... no
107 2011-03-16 00:17:51 <TheKid> luke-jr: ... why?
108 2011-03-16 00:17:58 <Kiba`> because they're irrational fucktard?
109 2011-03-16 00:17:59 <ArtForz> they want to shut down the 5 oldest reactors in the next months
110 2011-03-16 00:18:06 <luke-jr> TheKid: see Kiba`
111 2011-03-16 00:18:08 <TheKid> that kinda makes sense
112 2011-03-16 00:18:14 <TheKid> shutting down the old ones
113 2011-03-16 00:18:16 <xelister> very thick walled pit under the core of concrete-graffite-lead... if core starts to melt, open the door and drop entire core into such 60m pit and fuck it all =) ?
114 2011-03-16 00:18:17 <TheKid> the big problem with nuclear
115 2011-03-16 00:18:24 <Kiba`> but they aren't bringing new one online?
116 2011-03-16 00:18:26 <ArtForz> because those 5 *dont* have dual-redundant cooling
117 2011-03-16 00:18:29 <TheKid> is that there's only one company that makes the reactor core containment chamber
118 2011-03-16 00:18:31 <Kiba`> if the use coals, more people will die every year
119 2011-03-16 00:18:35 <luke-jr> xelister: IIRC the newer ones have something liek that
120 2011-03-16 00:18:43 <TheKid> xelister: no, that's what the containment chamber is for
121 2011-03-16 00:18:54 <TheKid> even in the worst case scenarios, the core just melts and it's like a big glow stick
122 2011-03-16 00:19:03 <TheKid> but nothing gets out
123 2011-03-16 00:19:04 <Netsniper> coal plants release more radiation than nuclear plants do
124 2011-03-16 00:19:06 <xelister> TheKid: so why are people about radiating JP, USA etc
125 2011-03-16 00:19:13 <ArtForz> as in, if external power and the diesel gens fail, they're fucked
126 2011-03-16 00:19:15 <xelister> I thought that too
127 2011-03-16 00:19:17 <TheKid> xelister: what?
128 2011-03-16 00:19:24 <luke-jr> xelister: because they're trying to use it as anti-nuclear propaganda
129 2011-03-16 00:19:26 <xelister> and now I read some radiation may travell all over ocean even to USA, how
130 2011-03-16 00:19:31 <ArtForz> and those gens are damn bitchy things
131 2011-03-16 00:19:36 <xelister> btw, speaking about americafags,
132 2011-03-16 00:19:50 <xelister> http://i.imgur.com/dlP8X.jpg  :D  (scroll down)
133 2011-03-16 00:19:55 <TheKid> xelister, that's bullshit >>
134 2011-03-16 00:19:59 <ArtForz> at one plant they had 1/2 gens fail to start in 25% of startup tests last year
135 2011-03-16 00:20:23 <TheKid> the only radiation released was some radioactive noble gases and nitrogen
136 2011-03-16 00:20:30 <TheKid> which all have half lives in the minutes
137 2011-03-16 00:20:31 <ArtForz> TheKid: nobody knows
138 2011-03-16 00:20:33 <TheKid> or tens of minutes
139 2011-03-16 00:20:36 <ArtForz> probably a lot more shit got released
140 2011-03-16 00:20:51 <ArtForz> they measured *some* Cs and I
141 2011-03-16 00:21:01 <xelister> lets make startup to convert radiation into electrical power to radeons, we can get JP to seal few such boxes in the cointainment if all else fails =)
142 2011-03-16 00:21:05 <TheKid> that just means the core casing is melting
143 2011-03-16 00:21:08 <ArtForz> yep
144 2011-03-16 00:21:16 <TheKid> which is in the containment chamber
145 2011-03-16 00:21:23 <ArtForz> so?
146 2011-03-16 00:21:40 <ArtForz> you still get that shit into the steam, which you have to vent to keep pressure in check...
147 2011-03-16 00:21:44 <xelister> so abovementioned in picture scenario can not happen?
148 2011-03-16 00:21:53 <TheKid> xelister, shouldn't be possible
149 2011-03-16 00:21:58 <ArtForz> so they probably *are* venting a bit more than noble gases
150 2011-03-16 00:21:58 <xelister> and in practice?
151 2011-03-16 00:22:07 <xelister> again, why they are venting?
152 2011-03-16 00:22:18 <xelister> the blown out parts where not so important, ok..
153 2011-03-16 00:22:24 <ArtForz> to prevent primary pressure vessel from going *BOOM*
154 2011-03-16 00:22:26 <xelister> so they where venting to protect which part
155 2011-03-16 00:22:34 <xelister> the main metall boiler thing?
156 2011-03-16 00:22:37 <ArtForz> yep
157 2011-03-16 00:22:43 <ArtForz> and the condensing pool
158 2011-03-16 00:22:49 <xelister> so it was NOT designed to withstand whatever might happen?
159 2011-03-16 00:22:59 <ArtForz> nope
160 2011-03-16 00:23:07 <xelister> which part has no chance of being breached?
161 2011-03-16 00:23:12 <TheKid> http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/
162 2011-03-16 00:23:16 <ArtForz> primary containment below pressure vessel
163 2011-03-16 00:23:17 <luke-jr> also, on this nuclear crap spreading to US nonsense
164 2011-03-16 00:23:18 <TheKid> the containment chamber
165 2011-03-16 00:23:21 <luke-jr> WE NUKED JAPAN TWICE
166 2011-03-16 00:23:27 <luke-jr> did we see any of that fallout?
167 2011-03-16 00:23:31 <luke-jr> that was INTENTIONAL ever
168 2011-03-16 00:23:33 <luke-jr> even*
169 2011-03-16 00:24:04 <ArtForz> thats several feet of graphite+concrete to catch the core in case it *melts* the primary boiler
170 2011-03-16 00:24:05 <luke-jr> so even when we intentionally make radioactive explosions in Japan, it doesn't come over here and bug is
171 2011-03-16 00:24:08 <Kiba`> some guys 70 years ago nuked Japan
172 2011-03-16 00:24:22 <luke-jr> ArtForz: not in those reactors IIRC
173 2011-03-16 00:24:28 <xelister> well that would be funny, if somehow the evil part of usa, say the gov would rellocate to WA/OR states and people there would evacuate =)
174 2011-03-16 00:24:29 <luke-jr> Kiba`: that is irrelevant to my point
175 2011-03-16 00:24:30 <ArtForz> errr... I think so
176 2011-03-16 00:24:38 <ArtForz> even the old GE BWRs had core catchers
177 2011-03-16 00:25:03 <xelister> ArtForz: so primary boiler is ok with being melted, but it will be a disaster if it explodes instead?
178 2011-03-16 00:25:07 <ArtForz> yep
179 2011-03-16 00:25:25 <TheKid> but there's no reason for it to explode
180 2011-03-16 00:25:29 <ArtForz> because a steam explosion of that magnitude woudl probably destroy primary containment
181 2011-03-16 00:25:56 <TheKid> they can vent off steam, and at this point + the days following today, the core has stopped fission
182 2011-03-16 00:26:02 <ArtForz> yep
183 2011-03-16 00:26:05 <ArtForz> from the looks of it, they already magaed to crack primary containment in #2
184 2011-03-16 00:26:09 <TheKid> so once pressure is at a safe level, there's not enough heat
185 2011-03-16 00:26:18 <TheKid> to continue making steam + pressure
186 2011-03-16 00:26:19 <ArtForz> probably somewhere around the condensing pool
187 2011-03-16 00:26:24 <xelister> ArtForz: url
188 2011-03-16 00:26:26 <xelister> ?
189 2011-03-16 00:26:35 <ArtForz> can't remember
190 2011-03-16 00:26:54 <ArtForz> basically "pressure in condensing pool suddenly dropped from 3 atm to ambient"
191 2011-03-16 00:27:33 <ArtForz> well, where the fuck did that pressure go?
192 2011-03-16 00:27:45 <ArtForz> if they were venting steam, it wouldnt be unexpected
193 2011-03-16 00:27:58 <xelister> http://i.imgur.com/OMf7L.png hah.
194 2011-03-16 00:28:24 <ArtForz> so somehow the condensing pool (which is *inside* of the hermetically sealed primary containment)... lost pressure
195 2011-03-16 00:29:11 <ArtForz> my best guess is, they tried to avoid blowing off the roof like in #1 and #3, and vented less steam... bad idea
196 2011-03-16 00:29:43 <xelister> well it went ok with 1 and 3... why not blow roof again woo hoo
197 2011-03-16 00:30:25 <ArtForz> well, having your nukes blow up their tin shacks makes for good pictures and bad PR
198 2011-03-16 00:31:40 <Lachesis> so is there still no tool like MSI Afterburner that supports "unofficial" overclocking without a flash on Ubuntu?
199 2011-03-16 00:31:48 <ArtForz> nope
200 2011-03-16 00:31:54 <xelister> oh well... hopefull next reactors will be even better
201 2011-03-16 00:32:00 <ArtForz> I wouldnt put it beyond a japanese company to risk running the condensing pool beyond rated pressure to avoid another rather harmless but bad-looking hydrogen explosion
202 2011-03-16 00:32:28 <ArtForz> well, actually more hydrogen deflagration
203 2011-03-16 00:33:02 <xelister> man this situation is bad
204 2011-03-16 00:33:12 <xelister> now I bet fucktards at PL will oppose even more buildint A-plant here
205 2011-03-16 00:33:20 <ArtForz> xelister: you bet
206 2011-03-16 00:33:20 <xelister> and DE
207 2011-03-16 00:33:25 <xelister> what is wrong with idiots?
208 2011-03-16 00:33:40 <ArtForz> erm... they're idiots, duh
209 2011-03-16 00:33:45 <Kiba`> it's called being humans
210 2011-03-16 00:33:51 <Kiba`> and humans are not that good at anaylzing risks
211 2011-03-16 00:33:56 <xelister> "lets produce 857284414 kg of radioactive and cancerous and toxic CO??? etc yearly from coal, instead of building (good!) nuclear plant
212 2011-03-16 00:33:57 <luke-jr> who you calling human?
213 2011-03-16 00:34:05 <ArtForz> anti-nuke idiots in .de are pretty much jeering
214 2011-03-16 00:34:13 <xelister> ArtForz: but they won, right?
215 2011-03-16 00:34:18 <luke-jr> xelister: CO2 is radioactive?
216 2011-03-16 00:34:19 <ArtForz> yep
217 2011-03-16 00:34:21 <xelister> de stoped building.using A-plants?
218 2011-03-16 00:34:25 <ArtForz> yep
219 2011-03-16 00:34:33 <xelister> luke-jr: sure
220 2011-03-16 00:34:37 <ArtForz> fucking pussies
221 2011-03-16 00:34:39 <luke-jr> xelister: we better stop exhaling
222 2011-03-16 00:34:45 <xelister> but ecofags, like moralfags need simple thinking
223 2011-03-16 00:35:01 <xelister> Atom energy? ZOMG RADIATION.. CHERNOBYL... THING OF THE CHILDREN!!!!111
224 2011-03-16 00:35:22 <TheKid> I like the new chinese design
225 2011-03-16 00:35:24 <TheKid> it's awesome
226 2011-03-16 00:35:29 <xelister> Free internet? No black listing by centrall gov? OMG PEDOS EVERYWHERE.. LETS castrate every man to be on the safe side - think of the children
227 2011-03-16 00:35:31 <TheKid> physically cannot melt down
228 2011-03-16 00:35:39 <gilicorn> test
229 2011-03-16 00:35:46 <xelister> humanity pisses me off lol
230 2011-03-16 00:36:04 <xelister> TheKid: which design?
231 2011-03-16 00:36:08 <ArtForz> I personally would have zero problem putting me and my families ass right next to a nuke plant
232 2011-03-16 00:36:22 <xelister> I would live on the roof of nuclear power plant.
233 2011-03-16 00:36:26 <gilicorn> as xelister was typing that: a fire reignited at Tokyo Electric Power Co.'s Fukushima Daiichi 4 reactor.
234 2011-03-16 00:36:31 <xelister> if they let me power all my computers/radeons from it for free =)
235 2011-03-16 00:36:33 <ArtForz> damn, that would be cool as hell
236 2011-03-16 00:36:37 <gilicorn> but everything's fine! as contanments explode in the background
237 2011-03-16 00:36:47 <xelister> gilicorn: lol... url?
238 2011-03-16 00:36:57 <gilicorn> not enough the nuclear industry thinks boiling water reactors are particularly safe
239 2011-03-16 00:37:10 <ArtForz> what? who?
240 2011-03-16 00:37:15 <gilicorn> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/world/asia/16nuclear.html?_r=1&hp
241 2011-03-16 00:37:49 <Kiba`> the problem with nuclear power plants is they aren't exactly cheap
242 2011-03-16 00:38:01 <luke-jr> depends
243 2011-03-16 00:38:03 <Kiba`> so they want to starve off commisioning
244 2011-03-16 00:38:12 <Kiba`> decommisioning*
245 2011-03-16 00:38:18 <xelister> It is too dangerous for workers to get near the reactor, No. 4, to determine exactly what is happening.
246 2011-03-16 00:38:19 <xelister> WHAAAAAAAAAAAT ?
247 2011-03-16 00:38:20 <luke-jr> didn't some kid build one in his backyard once?
248 2011-03-16 00:38:22 <xelister> what.
249 2011-03-16 00:38:27 <xelister> They have fucking human robots
250 2011-03-16 00:38:36 <gilicorn> i mean really, the radiation levels near the plants are at like 1 years dosage per hour. do you really expect emergency personell to go into such environments? controlling the meltdown depoends on thousands of workers sacrificing themselves potentially
251 2011-03-16 00:38:41 <xelister> they couldnt put there say 1000 of isolated cameras?
252 2011-03-16 00:38:48 <xelister> (own power for 4 weeks, wifi etc)
253 2011-03-16 00:39:00 <Kiba`> I don't know
254 2011-03-16 00:39:06 <Kiba`> wouldn't their electronics get fried?
255 2011-03-16 00:39:12 <xelister> or put there a stupid radio controller car with a camera
256 2011-03-16 00:39:20 <gilicorn> if the emergency responders decided to evacuate... there woud've been core meltdown in like 5 hours
257 2011-03-16 00:39:36 <xelister> did explosions destroyed all monitoring cameras there or what
258 2011-03-16 00:39:39 <Syke> How big is the area for free txs? Can a miner change it?
259 2011-03-16 00:39:45 <Kiba`> things is not going well for the nuclear plant it seem
260 2011-03-16 00:40:07 <ArtForz> shrug, so far doesnt look too bad
261 2011-03-16 00:40:19 <gilicorn> Mr. Ogoda said a proposed plan to use helicopters to put more cold water into the pool was looking unlikely.  <-- acts of desperation
262 2011-03-16 00:40:27 <ArtForz> actually it now looks more likely
263 2011-03-16 00:40:33 <luke-jr> Syke: yes. I don't have any room for free tx
264 2011-03-16 00:40:43 <xelister> Kiba`: base them on optical fiber to transport the image-light directly ("like mirrors/periscopes") nothing to fry
265 2011-03-16 00:40:44 <ArtForz> the fire managed to melt the roof of the building above #4s storage pools :P
266 2011-03-16 00:41:00 <xelister> :|
267 2011-03-16 00:41:01 <ArtForz> so they now think helicopter dropoffs should work
268 2011-03-16 00:41:07 <Syke> I'm looking at http://blockexplorer.com/b/113585 It's a 100k block with all free tx.
269 2011-03-16 00:41:15 <gilicorn> well i hope so
270 2011-03-16 00:41:22 <ArtForz> Syke: yes, miners can change it at will
271 2011-03-16 00:41:37 <luke-jr> Syke: there's some people doing free-for-all
272 2011-03-16 00:41:44 <gilicorn> but in the end.. global catastrophe is averted because of a few thousand firefighters basically.. they couldve decided to leave
273 2011-03-16 00:41:53 <Syke> and a block like http://blockexplorer.com/b/113673 is someone like luke-jr
274 2011-03-16 00:42:08 <luke-jr> not that one :P
275 2011-03-16 00:42:09 <gilicorn> the guys who went into chernobyl died within a week
276 2011-03-16 00:42:09 <kiba> global catastrophe, gilicorn?
277 2011-03-16 00:42:13 <kiba> what are you smoking?
278 2011-03-16 00:42:13 <xelister> kiba: like that "breave" USA aircraft carier that got the hell out of there because of a mild radiation cloud =) ?
279 2011-03-16 00:42:34 <ArtForz> actually thats again the 5-byte-nonce miner
280 2011-03-16 00:42:40 <gilicorn> kiba: hundreds of millions would be poisoned if the reactors melted down
281 2011-03-16 00:42:48 <ArtForz> bullshit
282 2011-03-16 00:42:58 <gilicorn> all of japan, radioactive plumes wouldve covered the US west coast
283 2011-03-16 00:42:59 <ArtForz> it seems most people guess that that is compute4cash
284 2011-03-16 00:43:11 <ArtForz> gilicorn: still bullshit
285 2011-03-16 00:43:13 <gilicorn> china, russia wouldve gotten plumed
286 2011-03-16 00:43:15 <Syke> haha, probably. scumbag.
287 2011-03-16 00:43:48 <luke-jr> gilicorn: just like they did when the US nuked Japan twice?
288 2011-03-16 00:43:51 <kiba> I can imagine the movie that will come after this!
289 2011-03-16 00:44:04 <luke-jr> Syke: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Free_transaction_relay_policy
290 2011-03-16 00:44:13 <gilicorn> luke-jr: theres way more fuel in the reactors than 2 h-bombs are you kidding
291 2011-03-16 00:44:25 <ArtForz> gilicorn: and that suddenly all gets airborne... how?
292 2011-03-16 00:44:36 <xelister> magic
293 2011-03-16 00:44:40 <ArtForz> it's a reactor. worst case it... melts and sits in a puddle. OMG!
294 2011-03-16 00:44:49 <gilicorn> radioactive plume
295 2011-03-16 00:44:51 <luke-jr> lol
296 2011-03-16 00:44:53 <xelister> mmm puddl
297 2011-03-16 00:45:06 <xelister> that puddle could breed new forms of life
298 2011-03-16 00:45:16 <luke-jr> xelister: like that kind NASA discovered?
299 2011-03-16 00:45:23 <xelister> yea
300 2011-03-16 00:45:27 <ArtForz> chernobyl was bad because the damn reactor was a fucking engineering clusterfuck
301 2011-03-16 00:45:27 <gilicorn> chernobyl: . The disaster released at least 100 times more radiation than the atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the radioactive plume spread over millions of square miles affecting Scandinavia and the UK.
302 2011-03-16 00:45:40 <ArtForz> gilicorn: actually large parts of germany as well
303 2011-03-16 00:45:41 <gilicorn> im surprised you didn't know this
304 2011-03-16 00:45:44 <luke-jr> http://www.nasa.gov/topics/universe/features/astrobiology_toxic_chemical.html
305 2011-03-16 00:45:55 <gilicorn> ArtForz: oh, so why are you asking me to explain how radioactive plumes work
306 2011-03-16 00:46:05 <ArtForz> because it's bullshit
307 2011-03-16 00:46:10 <Syke> ah, so the non-standard blocks are really only supported by just a subnet.
308 2011-03-16 00:46:18 <luke-jr> Syke: yeah
309 2011-03-16 00:46:21 <ArtForz> a BWR that doesnt *explode* doesnt create a massive radioactive plume
310 2011-03-16 00:46:21 <Syke> at least for relaying purposes
311 2011-03-16 00:46:28 <luke-jr> Syke: for both
312 2011-03-16 00:46:39 <gilicorn> weve had lots of explosions already
313 2011-03-16 00:46:46 <ArtForz> no, we didnt
314 2011-03-16 00:46:48 <gilicorn> theres no predicting how the meltdown will happen
315 2011-03-16 00:46:50 <luke-jr> Syke: I'm hosting a free-relay node to help people more easily use them
316 2011-03-16 00:46:55 <ArtForz> actually there is
317 2011-03-16 00:46:58 <gilicorn> there were so far 4 major explosions
318 2011-03-16 00:47:01 <xelister> ArtForz: it is generally belived actually russian engeeneres had good scientific ideas..?
319 2011-03-16 00:47:11 <ArtForz> xelister: well... I dunno
320 2011-03-16 00:47:34 <ArtForz> "hey, let's take a fulyl fueled reactor, shut down all cooling, pull out all control rods and see what happens"
321 2011-03-16 00:48:01 <ArtForz> oh, it violently explodes? who would've guessed...
322 2011-03-16 00:48:04 <gilicorn> well my point is that all the emergency personell evacuate (why would they want to die of radiation poinsoning?)
323 2011-03-16 00:48:12 <gilicorn> so no cooling happens
324 2011-03-16 00:48:30 <luke-jr> gilicorn: why not?
325 2011-03-16 00:48:34 <Syke> but then once the block is "solved", the rest of the network accepts it?
326 2011-03-16 00:48:38 <luke-jr> is it somehow worse than dying in a fire?
327 2011-03-16 00:48:41 <xelister> hmm
328 2011-03-16 00:48:46 <ArtForz> luke-jr: ... yes.
329 2011-03-16 00:48:46 <luke-jr> why don't firemen run away when they're called to work?
330 2011-03-16 00:48:46 <xelister> wait
331 2011-03-16 00:48:49 <gilicorn> luke-jr: because they remember what happened to the guys who responded to chernobyl - dead in a week
332 2011-03-16 00:48:53 <xelister> why just not take out all water from primary?
333 2011-03-16 00:49:01 <gilicorn> luke-jr: firefighters abandon building all the time
334 2011-03-16 00:49:04 <gilicorn> when its too dangerous
335 2011-03-16 00:49:07 <xelister> then it would 'just' melt, definatelly not explode
336 2011-03-16 00:49:14 <ArtForz> yep
337 2011-03-16 00:49:20 <xelister> so why not?
338 2011-03-16 00:49:22 <luke-jr> gilicorn: they don't abandon the fire
339 2011-03-16 00:49:34 <luke-jr> especially not if it stands to burn down the entire region
340 2011-03-16 00:49:54 <gilicorn> luke-jr: but standing near a fire is nothing like being cooked with radiation
341 2011-03-16 00:49:58 <ArtForz> you open all relief valves. all water boils off. core melts. unpressurized pressure vessel melts. melted shit drops to concrete floor of primary containment
342 2011-03-16 00:50:13 <luke-jr> gilicorn: doesn't change the principle of putting your life at risk to save others
343 2011-03-16 00:50:18 <xelister> ArtForz: well sounds fun. So is that the current plan?
344 2011-03-16 00:50:33 <Syke> small fee required, that's ok. no fee required, that's ok too. Someone creating blocks and refusing to include any txs, that's not cool.
345 2011-03-16 00:50:46 <gilicorn> luke-jr: yeah firefighters take measured risks.
346 2011-03-16 00:50:47 <ArtForz> well, so far it looks like they still can keep shit cooled
347 2011-03-16 00:51:08 <xelister> btw why is primary not builded more like a thermos
348 2011-03-16 00:51:10 <xelister> isolated
349 2011-03-16 00:51:12 <gilicorn> being near the reactors now isn't safe for anyone..
350 2011-03-16 00:51:13 <xelister> that wouldnt help?
351 2011-03-16 00:51:41 <xelister> or in case of problems, sorround core with thermos like coat dual layered with vacuum inside
352 2011-03-16 00:51:43 <xelister> between
353 2011-03-16 00:51:48 <ArtForz> gilicorn: "400 times allowed annual dose" != deadly
354 2011-03-16 00:52:06 <gilicorn> if fukushima melted down it would be around 20 times the amount of fuel chernobyl released
355 2011-03-16 00:52:07 <ArtForz> and it's not like the workers are standing outside all the time
356 2011-03-16 00:52:38 <ArtForz> gilicorn: yes. released onto the floor of the primary conrete containment.
357 2011-03-16 00:52:41 <gilicorn> ArtForz: its a significantly increased mortality theres no question. however, they are getting a years dose in 1 day.. its much worse
358 2011-03-16 00:52:43 <xelister> gilicorn: if it just melts down, all the fuel stays where it is... just borrows few meters under the ground and stays there
359 2011-03-16 00:53:00 <ArtForz> gilicorn: those standards are for workplace safety, not lethality ;)
360 2011-03-16 00:53:05 <gilicorn> if youre lucky. or it builds up in the containment vessle and the pressure causes an explosion
361 2011-03-16 00:53:23 <ArtForz> gilicorn: exactly that is what you want to avoid at all costs
362 2011-03-16 00:53:26 <xelister> gilicorn: if pressure valves are open, all steam will just vent out
363 2011-03-16 00:53:38 <xelister> ArtForz: but then I would say WBRs are NOT safe.
364 2011-03-16 00:53:39 <gilicorn> xelister: except they had valves which wouldnt open (they had to break them open)
365 2011-03-16 00:53:44 <xelister> what if there would be no stuff to do all that
366 2011-03-16 00:53:50 <xelister> e.g. killed in more massive earthquake
367 2011-03-16 00:53:56 <xelister> or due to terror/military
368 2011-03-16 00:54:07 <xelister> just kill these 50 people there
369 2011-03-16 00:54:11 <gilicorn> anyway, once the melt is exposed it starts to evaporate
370 2011-03-16 00:54:13 <xelister> and JP is destroyed basically
371 2011-03-16 00:54:39 <xelister> that must be best ever opportunity for any terrorsits right now.  Chopter in 3 guys with guns, shoot 30 workers - and half japan is unhabitable
372 2011-03-16 00:54:42 <ArtForz> gilicorn: ... no
373 2011-03-16 00:54:42 <gilicorn> fukushima has 1760 tons of spent fuel lying around, not even in the ractor
374 2011-03-16 00:54:57 <ArtForz> that didnt happen even at chernobyl
375 2011-03-16 00:56:16 <gilicorn> nytimes: about 50 tons of nuclear fuel evaporated and were released by the explosion into the atmosphere as finely dispersed particles of uranium dioxide, highly radioactive radionuclides of iodine-131, plutonium-239, neptunium-139, cesium-137, strontium-90, and many other radioactive isotopes.
376 2011-03-16 00:56:18 <xelister> Im surprised army is not protecting Fukushima area. or is it?
377 2011-03-16 00:56:50 <ArtForz> ... note the lack of uranium
378 2011-03-16 00:57:14 <gilicorn> well like 20 radioactive isotopes
379 2011-03-16 00:57:59 <ArtForz> most of that looks like isotopes created from activating the cladding and other shit
380 2011-03-16 00:58:15 <ArtForz> most of the metals also didnt make it very far
381 2011-03-16 00:58:38 <ArtForz> the vast majority that hit europe were isotopes of lighter elements
382 2011-03-16 01:00:07 <ArtForz> and to get a decent spread you need to *disperse* shit
383 2011-03-16 01:00:19 <ArtForz> a fucking huge steam explosion and a big fire work pretty well for that
384 2011-03-16 01:00:58 <ArtForz> chernobyl didnt *have* primary containment
385 2011-03-16 01:01:05 <xelister> hmm
386 2011-03-16 01:01:12 <xelister> ArtForz: perhaps they should had just kept the A plant running
387 2011-03-16 01:01:19 <TheKid> ArtForz: from what I hear those were the byproducts of nuclear decay
388 2011-03-16 01:01:22 <xelister> and normally power the pumps
389 2011-03-16 01:01:35 <ArtForz> it was "pressure vessel sits in flimsy concrete+steel shack"
390 2011-03-16 01:01:43 <xelister> or keep it running at like 5% power or soemthing
391 2011-03-16 01:01:45 <gilicorn> a couple earthquakes could easily destroy the primary containment at fuku
392 2011-03-16 01:01:57 <ArtForz> sure
393 2011-03-16 01:02:00 <xelister> why is water still boiling, but the reactor is not generating electricity?
394 2011-03-16 01:02:03 <TheKid> xelister: when shit starts to go down, you shut down the plant
395 2011-03-16 01:02:13 <xelister> ok but water is still boiling
396 2011-03-16 01:02:14 <TheKid> xelister: radioactive decay of byproducts
397 2011-03-16 01:02:16 <xelister> why not make power out of it
398 2011-03-16 01:02:22 <TheKid> which is ending now mostly
399 2011-03-16 01:02:24 <xelister> to power pumps
400 2011-03-16 01:02:26 <gilicorn> the fuel generates heat continuously.. at about 6% of its normal output
401 2011-03-16 01:02:26 <TheKid> not sure why
402 2011-03-16 01:02:32 <ArtForz> a 8.7 didnt faze it much, a bunch of 6.somethings should work ...
403 2011-03-16 01:03:08 <gilicorn> ar eyou seeing the flaming inferno and 20km evacuation zone...
404 2011-03-16 01:03:19 <TheKid> gilicorn
405 2011-03-16 01:03:25 <ArtForz> errr... yes.
406 2011-03-16 01:03:26 <TheKid> the fire is on the outside of the containment chamber
407 2011-03-16 01:03:33 <TheKid> and it's just regular hydrogen
408 2011-03-16 01:03:34 <xelister> anyone know why not just keep it making electricity from anyway-boiling water, enough to normally power pumps as in normal operation? (and recharge batteries)?
409 2011-03-16 01:03:37 <TheKid> from a cooling system
410 2011-03-16 01:03:51 <ArtForz> fire is at #4, which doesnt even have fuel in the pressure vessel
411 2011-03-16 01:03:59 <ArtForz> xelister: thats what newer BWRs do
412 2011-03-16 01:04:00 <xelister> I assume it does not need and external (destroyed by tsunami?) facilities
413 2011-03-16 01:04:06 <xelister> why olds dont?
414 2011-03-16 01:04:13 <ArtForz> they have small aux steam turbines
415 2011-03-16 01:04:21 <kiba> because they are older design and sucks more?
416 2011-03-16 01:04:24 <ArtForz> *inside* primary containment
417 2011-03-16 01:04:27 <ArtForz> yep
418 2011-03-16 01:04:29 <xelister> mhm
419 2011-03-16 01:04:34 <gilicorn> yeah read the news, the primary containment is damaged
420 2011-03-16 01:04:35 <xelister> yea but with the old one
421 2011-03-16 01:04:36 <gilicorn> it could breach at any moment
422 2011-03-16 01:04:41 <xelister> why not just repair the generator part
423 2011-03-16 01:04:43 <ArtForz> probably retrofitting there is a huge pain, otherwise they probbably woudl've done it
424 2011-03-16 01:04:47 <TheKid> ArtForz: how do you know so much about this, just reading stuff or do you have a degree past EE?
425 2011-03-16 01:04:48 <xelister> enough to feed itself the elctrocity
426 2011-03-16 01:04:52 <ArtForz> gilicorn: read up
427 2011-03-16 01:04:53 <xelister> retrofittig?
428 2011-03-16 01:05:18 <gilicorn> he International Atomic Energy Agency reports that the latest explosions at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant may have breached the primary containment of one reactor
429 2011-03-16 01:05:19 <ArtForz> TheKid: reading stuff, being inside a fallout zone from chernobyl also helps increase your interest in nuclear stuff ;)
430 2011-03-16 01:05:38 <Netsniper> http://www.snopes.com/photos/technology/fallout.asp
431 2011-03-16 01:05:39 <davex__> ;;bc,stats
432 2011-03-16 01:05:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113681 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1230 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 2 hours, 14 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 64568.48264353
433 2011-03-16 01:05:45 <TheKid> ArtForz: oh? Where do you live?
434 2011-03-16 01:06:15 <gilicorn> the primary containment could easily be breached if: the pressure inside the vessel isnt managed (they dont even have accurate gauges, valves are failing , etc) or if theres an aftershock.. or if the hydrogen explosion fractures an already warped containment
435 2011-03-16 01:06:28 <ArtForz> TheKid: .de
436 2011-03-16 01:06:29 <gilicorn> and of course if the workers left, the cooling would stop and it would blow up
437 2011-03-16 01:06:38 <gilicorn> there is nothing safe about it
438 2011-03-16 01:06:41 <TheKid> gilicorn: the workers left at Chernobyl
439 2011-03-16 01:06:47 <TheKid> people know not to do that again :P
440 2011-03-16 01:06:55 <xelister> "let's call it a day, bye"
441 2011-03-16 01:07:03 <ArtForz> we still have to check game for radiation levels around here ...
442 2011-03-16 01:07:06 <TheKid> so there's no reason to think that the pressure would go unmanaged
443 2011-03-16 01:07:13 <gilicorn> would you go to work if it meant getting a years worth of radiation in 1 day...
444 2011-03-16 01:07:16 <TheKid> aftershock could be a small concern
445 2011-03-16 01:07:27 <TheKid> gilicorn: considering that is still a small amount of radiation?
446 2011-03-16 01:07:29 <TheKid> yes
447 2011-03-16 01:07:39 <TheKid> also, radiation protective suits
448 2011-03-16 01:07:45 <ArtForz> yep
449 2011-03-16 01:07:50 <ArtForz> also, that level is *outside*
450 2011-03-16 01:07:56 <xelister> they really should build mechs to do THAT job
451 2011-03-16 01:08:11 <xelister> not just some stupid robots to give blowjobs or play valleyball
452 2011-03-16 01:08:23 <xelister> s/blowjobs/show humanlike skinned tits
453 2011-03-16 01:08:24 <TheKid> also, a hydrogen explosion would just remove the ability to contain radioactive gas
454 2011-03-16 01:08:27 <TheKid> from within the containment
455 2011-03-16 01:08:34 <ArtForz> TheKid: yep
456 2011-03-16 01:08:40 <TheKid> gilicorn: the nuclear plant is the least of Japan's worries
457 2011-03-16 01:08:52 <ArtForz> well, a hydrogen explosion *inside* primary containment is BAD
458 2011-03-16 01:08:53 <TheKid> a shitload of other plants have literally EXPLODED
459 2011-03-16 01:08:57 <TheKid> ArtForz: well, yeah
460 2011-03-16 01:09:02 <TheKid> but again, see managing pressure levels
461 2011-03-16 01:09:08 <xelister> TheKid: what plants?
462 2011-03-16 01:09:09 <ArtForz> which seems to be what happened at #2
463 2011-03-16 01:09:13 <TheKid> and there are cars everywhere leaking chemicals from batteries
464 2011-03-16 01:09:22 <bk128> wow, supposedly 5 workers have died already
465 2011-03-16 01:09:31 <gilicorn> yes.. and theres been a big drop in new tentacle porn  releases
466 2011-03-16 01:09:38 <ArtForz> I'm more worried about crap from destroyed petro and chem plants being spread all over the place by the tsunami
467 2011-03-16 01:09:39 <xelister> bk128: in explosion
468 2011-03-16 01:09:53 <bk128> reactor 2 explosion?
469 2011-03-16 01:09:54 <xelister> gilicorn: WHAT
470 2011-03-16 01:10:04 <xelister> drop in tentacle porn?  we must do something for the humanity.
471 2011-03-16 01:10:17 <ArtForz> bk128: #3 I think
472 2011-03-16 01:10:28 <gilicorn> i agree the devastation from the quake and tsunami is the major human toll.. i think theyll contain the nuclear threat, thanks to the heroic efforts of the emergency crews
473 2011-03-16 01:10:37 <TheKid> gilicorn: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7359275n'
474 2011-03-16 01:10:38 <xelister> TheKid: what with the chemicals? that is not major concern is it
475 2011-03-16 01:10:59 <TheKid> chemicals from thousands to millions of car batteries?
476 2011-03-16 01:11:12 <xelister> TheKid: dunno... ok perhaps..
477 2011-03-16 01:11:17 <xelister> well ha that is what you get..
478 2011-03-16 01:11:18 <TheKid> sounds significant to me, though to be fair, that could be less of an issue
479 2011-03-16 01:11:19 <TheKid> still
480 2011-03-16 01:11:21 <xelister> for using 'green'
481 2011-03-16 01:11:24 <TheKid> burning oil refineries and coal plants
482 2011-03-16 01:11:26 <xelister> hybrids instead of normal cars lol
483 2011-03-16 01:11:35 <ArtForz> xelister: lol
484 2011-03-16 01:11:36 <TheKid> gilicorn: nuclear is far cleaner and safer than coal and oil
485 2011-03-16 01:11:40 <TheKid> and natural gas
486 2011-03-16 01:11:46 <TheKid> try and prove otherwise
487 2011-03-16 01:11:54 <ArtForz> you can't
488 2011-03-16 01:12:01 <xelister> yeap
489 2011-03-16 01:12:09 <gilicorn> all that spent fuel is really clean
490 2011-03-16 01:12:17 <gilicorn> and meltdowns are impossible..
491 2011-03-16 01:12:24 <ArtForz> wo said that?
492 2011-03-16 01:12:35 <bk128> (sarcasm)
493 2011-03-16 01:12:38 <xelister> the guy that managed chernobyl plant perhaps
494 2011-03-16 01:12:42 <TheKid> yeah I never said that
495 2011-03-16 01:12:49 <xelister> "famous last words"
496 2011-03-16 01:13:10 <xelister> didnt USA fucked up totally with one of its first A-plant thig
497 2011-03-16 01:13:13 <TheKid> spent fuel is managable relatively easily, compared to, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_ash
498 2011-03-16 01:13:23 <noagendamarket> so if they dont use nuclear whats the alternative
499 2011-03-16 01:13:28 <TheKid> xelister: yeah one of the first breeders
500 2011-03-16 01:13:33 <TheKid> was a huge failure :P
501 2011-03-16 01:13:37 <TheKid> in that it didn't work right
502 2011-03-16 01:13:39 <noagendamarket> pull power out of their ass ?
503 2011-03-16 01:13:39 <xelister> like, they made reactor... oh wait we have to controll the reaction... *add lead* ... oh shit, now lead/graphite is all on fire O_o< LOLOLOLOL help
504 2011-03-16 01:13:40 <TheKid> not that it was unsafe
505 2011-03-16 01:14:10 <ArtForz> noagendamarket: duh, solar, so much for night lighting ;)
506 2011-03-16 01:14:12 <TheKid> gilicorn: meltdowns *are* impossible with newer designs
507 2011-03-16 01:14:21 <TheKid> physically impossible
508 2011-03-16 01:14:23 <ArtForz> TheKid: well, just really really unlikely
509 2011-03-16 01:14:29 <xelister> btw, why didnt they simply
510 2011-03-16 01:14:35 <xelister> just build a huge pits under cores
511 2011-03-16 01:14:40 <dissipate> we need fusion
512 2011-03-16 01:14:43 <xelister> and split core in smaller fragments like 8
513 2011-03-16 01:14:48 <xelister> and drop them into separte holes
514 2011-03-16 01:14:55 <gilicorn> TheKid: yeah assuming theres no design flaw, and the plant is constructed perfectly, and no mistakes are made in the process, and all the plants operations are done flawlessly, and all the monitoring systems work
515 2011-03-16 01:15:04 <ArtForz> gilicorn: nope
516 2011-03-16 01:15:08 <gilicorn> and there are no rolling quake / tsunamis
517 2011-03-16 01:15:10 <TheKid> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor#Safety_features
518 2011-03-16 01:15:13 <xelister> its not rocket science... it contains heat radiations and moderates by just phisically removing rods from eachothers proximity
519 2011-03-16 01:15:25 <ArtForz> yep, melttdown is physically impossible
520 2011-03-16 01:15:27 <TheKid> gilicorn: no, even if all safety systems fail in a pebble bed reactor it just idles
521 2011-03-16 01:15:33 <TheKid> and wastes heat
522 2011-03-16 01:15:40 <ArtForz> note that the german experimental reactor is a fucking disaster anyways :P
523 2011-03-16 01:15:48 <TheKid> ArtForz: >german
524 2011-03-16 01:15:56 <TheKid> and you have no idea how much NEs are paid to not fuck up, do you :P
525 2011-03-16 01:16:08 <TheKid> xelister: again, that's what the containment chamber is for
526 2011-03-16 01:16:14 <TheKid> it's a big concrete and steel container
527 2011-03-16 01:16:17 <TheKid> like a giant water bottle
528 2011-03-16 01:16:20 <ArtForz> the graphite floor of the reactor *cracked* and fuel pebbles got stuck in there and broke up ...
529 2011-03-16 01:16:22 <TheKid> so that even if the core melts, it's just in that
530 2011-03-16 01:16:35 <gilicorn> pebble bed is the nuclear industry's latest marketing attempt to assure ppl that inherently unsafe technology can be made safe.. it makes as much sense as "clean coal"
531 2011-03-16 01:16:36 <ArtForz> now they have shitloads of fun trying to clean up the resulting dust
532 2011-03-16 01:16:53 <ArtForz> gilicorn: actually for the "no meltdown possible" part... it works.
533 2011-03-16 01:17:10 <TheKid> it's just a pita when they fuck it up like they did :P
534 2011-03-16 01:17:13 <TheKid> and
535 2011-03-16 01:17:15 <TheKid> nuclear is unsafe
536 2011-03-16 01:17:20 <TheKid> *
537 2011-03-16 01:17:23 <ArtForz> anything is unsafe
538 2011-03-16 01:17:35 <TheKid> radioactive waste sucks'
539 2011-03-16 01:17:45 <TheKid> but as a transition baseload power source, there are no other good options
540 2011-03-16 01:17:56 <TheKid> once solar or whatever gets efficient I am all for it
541 2011-03-16 01:18:00 <TheKid> but it's not there yet
542 2011-03-16 01:18:07 <ArtForz> I kinda like the desertec idea
543 2011-03-16 01:18:17 <TheKid> desertec?
544 2011-03-16 01:18:21 <ArtForz> yup
545 2011-03-16 01:18:22 <gilicorn> lets say the chances of a major meltdown are .0000001 for a given plant in a year... if you have 500 plants running for 100 years and the possible mortality is 500MM ppl - that means you expect there to be 2.5 million deaths
546 2011-03-16 01:18:37 <ArtForz> build a shitload of solar-thermal plants in the northern sahara
547 2011-03-16 01:18:39 <TheKid> gilicorn, you're missing it
548 2011-03-16 01:18:44 <TheKid> with pebble bed reactors
549 2011-03-16 01:18:45 <ArtForz> use HVDC lines to get the energy to europe
550 2011-03-16 01:18:55 <TheKid> it is *physically impossible* for it to melt down
551 2011-03-16 01:18:57 <kiba> ArtForz: problem is the political instabilities within these region
552 2011-03-16 01:19:05 <TheKid> it is *designed* to get as hot as possible
553 2011-03-16 01:19:09 <xelister> no, wait, it was not USA
554 2011-03-16 01:19:16 <xelister> it was UK
555 2011-03-16 01:19:18 <xelister> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windscale_fire
556 2011-03-16 01:19:31 <TheKid> xelister: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_1
557 2011-03-16 01:19:34 <ArtForz> kiba: you'll create thousands of (relatively) high-paying jobs for mirror cleaners ;)
558 2011-03-16 01:19:34 <bk128> building and maintaining that length of transmission lines would be a nightmare
559 2011-03-16 01:19:37 <TheKid> that's what I was thinking of
560 2011-03-16 01:19:39 <gilicorn> TheKid: why cant a pebble bed reactor blow up
561 2011-03-16 01:19:42 <ArtForz> bk128: not really
562 2011-03-16 01:19:46 <gilicorn> its under enormous pressure
563 2011-03-16 01:20:03 <bk128> how many miles is it?
564 2011-03-16 01:20:19 <ArtForz> about 700-1000 iirc
565 2011-03-16 01:20:33 <ArtForz> theres already plenty HVDC lines not much shorter
566 2011-03-16 01:20:46 <noagendamarket> they should do that in the middle of australia
567 2011-03-16 01:20:47 <kiba> ArtForz: if you can get beyond the whole political issue, yeah
568 2011-03-16 01:20:54 <ArtForz> it's "only" a matter of political crap + financing
569 2011-03-16 01:20:57 <noagendamarket> but our government is tool retarded
570 2011-03-16 01:21:12 <noagendamarket> *too
571 2011-03-16 01:21:16 <TheKid> gilicorn: it can be cooled with inert gasses
572 2011-03-16 01:21:26 <TheKid> noagendamarket: I am so sorry
573 2011-03-16 01:21:31 <ArtForz> hell, they even solved base load and night issues
574 2011-03-16 01:21:46 <TheKid> I watch the stuff your government does and am very glad I don't live in AUS
575 2011-03-16 01:21:47 <ArtForz> just store heat in molten salt
576 2011-03-16 01:21:51 <gilicorn> great.. pump a container full of gases until it explodes
577 2011-03-16 01:21:52 <TheKid> then again, USA isn't much better :P
578 2011-03-16 01:21:53 <bk128> losses are 3% per 1000km
579 2011-03-16 01:21:56 <TheKid> but at least I can play Homefront!
580 2011-03-16 01:22:02 <ArtForz> it's not like you *need* 100% efficiency with solar
581 2011-03-16 01:23:06 <ArtForz> the area needed is *huge*
582 2011-03-16 01:23:11 <ArtForz> but not totally crazy
583 2011-03-16 01:23:29 <emeril> dammit
584 2011-03-16 01:23:37 <gilicorn> i dont see why the fuel pebbles cant impode under high pressure
585 2011-03-16 01:23:38 <ArtForz> iirc something like 1000 square miles to power all of europe
586 2011-03-16 01:23:41 <emeril> also, dammit, this isn't the right window
587 2011-03-16 01:23:42 <emeril> lol
588 2011-03-16 01:23:45 <TheKid> gilicorn: seriously?
589 2011-03-16 01:23:55 <ArtForz> gilicorn: physics
590 2011-03-16 01:24:15 <TheKid> ^
591 2011-03-16 01:24:21 <TheKid> graphite is good stuff
592 2011-03-16 01:24:24 <ArtForz> it's a solid, those don't tend to compress very well
593 2011-03-16 01:24:24 <TheKid> and the pebbles are mostly graphite
594 2011-03-16 01:24:51 <gilicorn> enough gaseous volume and the explosion is inevitable
595 2011-03-16 01:24:57 <ArtForz> what gas?
596 2011-03-16 01:25:07 <ArtForz> it's ceramics and graphite
597 2011-03-16 01:25:11 <gilicorn> its filled with helium
598 2011-03-16 01:25:24 <TheKid> did you take chemistry?
599 2011-03-16 01:25:29 <TheKid> look at what row helium is in
600 2011-03-16 01:25:35 <TheKid> er, column
601 2011-03-16 01:25:36 <TheKid> sorry
602 2011-03-16 01:25:40 <ArtForz> erm, the pebbles are solid
603 2011-03-16 01:25:41 <gilicorn> the reactor is filled with helium and water vapor
604 2011-03-16 01:25:51 <TheKid> no
605 2011-03-16 01:25:54 <gilicorn> what happens if you pump too much gas into it at high pressure
606 2011-03-16 01:26:03 <ArtForz> ... they don't
607 2011-03-16 01:26:03 <TheKid> pebble reactors should be cooled with only inert gasses
608 2011-03-16 01:26:05 <TheKid> gases
609 2011-03-16 01:26:09 <ArtForz> yep
610 2011-03-16 01:26:11 <TheKid> to avoid things like that
611 2011-03-16 01:26:19 <ArtForz> you dont want water vapor in there I think
612 2011-03-16 01:26:24 <TheKid> man
613 2011-03-16 01:26:26 <TheKid> ArtForz:
614 2011-03-16 01:26:30 <TheKid> I like debating science
615 2011-03-16 01:26:47 <ArtForz> any water there would probably disassociate into H+O and *burn* the graphite
616 2011-03-16 01:26:54 <TheKid> it's like debating politics but instead of just thinking I'm right and making moral arguments, I can make factual arguments and know I'm right
617 2011-03-16 01:27:01 <ArtForz> TheKid: yup
618 2011-03-16 01:27:29 <gilicorn> so noew we have graphite vapor at high pressure
619 2011-03-16 01:27:34 <ArtForz> what?
620 2011-03-16 01:27:36 <TheKid> what
621 2011-03-16 01:27:41 <ArtForz> no, we have... helium at high pressure
622 2011-03-16 01:27:41 <TheKid> graphite vapor?
623 2011-03-16 01:27:43 <TheKid> are you serious?
624 2011-03-16 01:27:46 <ArtForz> lol
625 2011-03-16 01:27:56 <ArtForz> damn, something got WAAAAY too hot
626 2011-03-16 01:28:01 <da2ce7> ArtForz, the hydrogen exlosion was outside the contament shelter... however in reacter No2 it was so powerfull it caused structual damage to the contament, from the outside.
627 2011-03-16 01:28:21 <ArtForz> da2ce7: ah, that doesnt sound THAT bad
628 2011-03-16 01:28:22 <da2ce7> they pipe the steam directly from the reactor to the outside.
629 2011-03-16 01:28:26 <gilicorn> if youre burning graphite you have carbon vapor gaseous carbon
630 2011-03-16 01:28:56 <ArtForz> da2ce7: then how the fuck did hydrogen accumulate under the roof of the outer building?
631 2011-03-16 01:28:58 <gilicorn> so the pressure inside the vessel is exponentially worse
632 2011-03-16 01:29:00 <TheKid> no oxygen
633 2011-03-16 01:29:04 <TheKid> no burning
634 2011-03-16 01:29:18 <TheKid> also
635 2011-03-16 01:29:24 <TheKid> no
636 2011-03-16 01:29:29 <TheKid> to whatever you're saying next
637 2011-03-16 01:29:33 <TheKid> just admit you're wrong
638 2011-03-16 01:29:34 <TheKid> it's okay
639 2011-03-16 01:29:39 <TheKid> I promise it doesn't hurt
640 2011-03-16 01:29:54 <gilicorn> i didnt say graphite would burn.. artforz did
641 2011-03-16 01:30:00 <gilicorn> so which is it?
642 2011-03-16 01:30:05 <da2ce7> well there are 3 buildings, the outer-outer is a weather sheleter... that is the part that exploded... that is where the vented gas goes.
643 2011-03-16 01:30:22 <ArtForz> yep
644 2011-03-16 01:30:22 <TheKid> gilicorn: where did he say that?
645 2011-03-16 01:30:25 <gilicorn> TheKid: you havent proved pressure cant build up in the reactor. there is no proof
646 2011-03-16 01:30:35 <gilicorn> TheKid: scroll
647 2011-03-16 01:30:48 <ArtForz> I said you dont want water in your primary loop
648 2011-03-16 01:30:58 <TheKid> gilicorn: I did
649 2011-03-16 01:30:59 <TheKid> and
650 2011-03-16 01:31:05 <gilicorn> TheKid: sorry buddy "pebbles" arent significantly safer than other designs. the latest innovation from nuclear industry isnt going to save us
651 2011-03-16 01:31:06 <TheKid> yes pressure can build up
652 2011-03-16 01:31:13 <TheKid> no that won't cause an explosion
653 2011-03-16 01:31:14 <da2ce7> gilicorn, the burning carbon is a good thing... makes less oxygen in the reactor.
654 2011-03-16 01:31:17 <ArtForz> gilicorn: proof?
655 2011-03-16 01:31:23 <TheKid> because they pay people to release the pressure
656 2011-03-16 01:31:31 <xelister> gilicorn: wikipedia shows experiments proving it is secure.
657 2011-03-16 01:31:33 <da2ce7> the reacton is now stoped by the boron.
658 2011-03-16 01:31:36 <xelister> gilicorn: are you here to troll us or what
659 2011-03-16 01:31:37 <TheKid> or increase it if necessary
660 2011-03-16 01:31:46 <TheKid> troll or not I like debates
661 2011-03-16 01:31:49 <ArtForz> because at the temps you're running, any water vapor would disassociate into H+O2 on contact with the pebbles
662 2011-03-16 01:31:49 <gilicorn> xelister: lol "wikipedia" shows lab experiments
663 2011-03-16 01:31:52 <gilicorn> xelister: are you serious
664 2011-03-16 01:32:06 <xelister> gilicorn: read the reference materials, duh
665 2011-03-16 01:32:08 <gilicorn> TheKid: you can type lines with more than 5 words
666 2011-03-16 01:32:13 <ArtForz> the primary reactor only contains helium gas
667 2011-03-16 01:32:20 <gilicorn> yeah, wiki says pebbles are safe! according to lab experiments!
668 2011-03-16 01:32:24 <ArtForz> which is pretty damn inert
669 2011-03-16 01:32:34 <ArtForz> *edit* no, it doesnt
670 2011-03-16 01:32:36 <ArtForz> ;)
671 2011-03-16 01:32:38 <xelister> soem guy on the internets say pebbles are unsafe! [citation needed]!
672 2011-03-16 01:32:56 <xelister> I think I will go with the random guy on the internet citing no sources, he must be right.
673 2011-03-16 01:33:01 <gilicorn> burden of proof is on you really, ive already told you gas can build up pressure in the vessel and cause an explosion
674 2011-03-16 01:33:02 <ArtForz> *oblig. xkcd link*
675 2011-03-16 01:33:15 <da2ce7> you have O from the water... so 2H2O -> H2 + 2O2
676 2011-03-16 01:33:26 <da2ce7> that burns with the carbon.
677 2011-03-16 01:33:33 <gilicorn> what if the pressure valves are sealed somehow? by a bunch of pebbles or something. now youre screwed
678 2011-03-16 01:33:41 <da2ce7> so you have much more H2 than O2. that is a good thing.
679 2011-03-16 01:33:52 <ArtForz> da2ce7: yes, thats why the primary coolant in a PBR is helium
680 2011-03-16 01:33:59 <xelister> bunch of angry pebbles sealed the valve! Police is on to them!
681 2011-03-16 01:34:12 <da2ce7> that means that the hydrogen explosion only happens in the outside of the reactor.
682 2011-03-16 01:34:14 <gilicorn> graphite is combustible
683 2011-03-16 01:34:28 <ArtForz> gilicorn: put the relief valves *above* the pebbles? unless you suddenly lose *gravity*, that should work pretty well...
684 2011-03-16 01:34:43 <gilicorn> Critics also often point out an accident in Germany in 1986, which involved a jammed pebble damaged by the reactor operators when they were attempting to dislodge it from a feeder tube
685 2011-03-16 01:34:53 <da2ce7> in a pebel reactor, the graphite is covered in non-reactive serfaces.
686 2011-03-16 01:34:53 <gilicorn> apparently it already happened
687 2011-03-16 01:34:57 <xelister> ArtForz: what if moon gets really close and reveses gravity
688 2011-03-16 01:35:13 <ArtForz> xelister: then, I think, a reactor isnt exactly our biggest problem...
689 2011-03-16 01:35:16 <ArtForz> gilicorn: again, see my earlier stuff
690 2011-03-16 01:35:27 <da2ce7> so the graphine pebble has to be damaged to burn
691 2011-03-16 01:35:30 <ArtForz> the german experimental PBR was a fucking disaster
692 2011-03-16 01:35:36 <da2ce7> and there is no O2 in the ractor anyway.
693 2011-03-16 01:35:51 <da2ce7> but the reactor in Japan is not a pebel bed.
694 2011-03-16 01:35:53 <ArtForz> because... it was a prototype
695 2011-03-16 01:35:53 <gilicorn> so was chernobyl... its not safe even i ntheory, and has to be built flawlessly by contractors
696 2011-03-16 01:36:01 <ArtForz> no, it's safe in theory
697 2011-03-16 01:36:15 <ArtForz> chernobyl sure as hell wasnt safe in theory, no BWR is.
698 2011-03-16 01:36:42 <TheKid> and add to that the fact that chernobyl wasn't manned with trained staff :P
699 2011-03-16 01:36:43 <da2ce7> the H2 + O2 is from the hot metal.
700 2011-03-16 01:36:46 <ArtForz> and they arent safe in practice either. thats why they fucking need active cooling to prevent them from melting down.
701 2011-03-16 01:36:47 <TheKid> and all the security things were bypassed
702 2011-03-16 01:36:51 <ArtForz> yep
703 2011-03-16 01:37:11 <gilicorn> the best proof would be an exhaustive simulation of all the major components - but thats computationally infeasible. so a sufficient proof of safety is impossible
704 2011-03-16 01:37:26 <ArtForz> TheKid: they took a fully fueled reactor, shut down cooling, pulled out all control rods beyond safe limits *overriding safetys* ... and were surprised when shit blew up
705 2011-03-16 01:37:46 <gilicorn> if you cant simulate it with high fidelity, you cant prove any properties certainly not to a sufficient degree of certainty given the risk of failure
706 2011-03-16 01:37:50 <xelister> ha thoes russians. Crazy.
707 2011-03-16 01:37:55 <da2ce7> gilicorn, you just need to design a reactor that is logicaly safe... lol
708 2011-03-16 01:38:15 <kiba> nuclear subs..hmm
709 2011-03-16 01:38:27 <gilicorn> da2ce7: sure a logical proof would be nice, but it doesnt exist
710 2011-03-16 01:38:28 <kiba> nuclear aircraft carriers
711 2011-03-16 01:38:37 <ArtForz> (leaving out a few parts of the chain of events for dramatic effect and too shortzen things)
712 2011-03-16 01:38:40 <xelister> maybe Chernobyl's block #4 chief got really drunk and played russian roulette with block #2
713 2011-03-16 01:38:58 <TheKid> gilicorn: lrn2 theory
714 2011-03-16 01:39:02 <da2ce7> the reactors in nuclear aircraft carriers are some of the safest ever designed.
715 2011-03-16 01:39:24 <gilicorn> TheKid: lets see a verifiable proof of pbr's safety..
716 2011-03-16 01:39:29 <xelister> da2ce7: I suppose.. they are built to being literally shoot at =)
717 2011-03-16 01:39:30 <ArtForz> but thats effectively the situation they achieved shortly before the reactor decided that *now* was a good time to really start the reaction
718 2011-03-16 01:39:30 <gilicorn> TheKid: doesnt exist
719 2011-03-16 01:39:44 <TheKid> gilicorn: if you would think about the design then yes, one exists
720 2011-03-16 01:39:52 <ArtForz> gilicorn: impossible
721 2011-03-16 01:40:09 <TheKid> the fact that it is cooled with an inert gas, and designed to get as hot as goddamn possible
722 2011-03-16 01:40:12 <ArtForz> there is no proof that the universe will not cease to exist in 3 seconds.
723 2011-03-16 01:40:26 <kiba> 3 seconds had passed
724 2011-03-16 01:40:29 <gilicorn> handwavy arguments are not a proof. thers no such thing as proof in engineering. you use simulations (but reactors like this are way too copmlicated to simulate with any realism.. and the costs are too high) unfortunately bounded rationality + extremely rare catastrophic events = unacceptable risk. theres really no logic way around it
725 2011-03-16 01:40:31 <kiba> perhaps you mean the next 3 seconds
726 2011-03-16 01:40:34 <ArtForz> yeah
727 2011-03-16 01:40:48 <TheKid> whatever, it's 2240 here
728 2011-03-16 01:40:50 <TheKid> time to sleep
729 2011-03-16 01:40:54 <TheKid> night everyone
730 2011-03-16 01:40:55 <ArtForz> so we better never do anything that takes longer than 3 seconds, or the universe might end before we're done
731 2011-03-16 01:40:59 <da2ce7> ooh there is no proof that i'm not going to become a God when i die.
732 2011-03-16 01:41:40 <ArtForz> da2ce7: yup, pretty cool, eh?
733 2011-03-16 01:42:10 <da2ce7> ArtForz, since there is not proof, it must be true!
734 2011-03-16 01:42:14 <ArtForz> anyways, "close enough"+50% usually works pretty well in engineering
735 2011-03-16 01:42:17 <da2ce7> *no
736 2011-03-16 01:42:17 <xelister> O_o<  LOLOLOLOLOLOL
737 2011-03-16 01:42:22 <gilicorn> its all about risk - you could prove a plan is fairly safe, the accident rate is around 1 in 1 million miles
738 2011-03-16 01:42:22 <xelister> Chernobyl's reactor..
739 2011-03-16 01:42:24 <xelister> it was a
740 2011-03-16 01:42:41 <gilicorn> da2ce7: theres no proof of pebble bed safety! it must be true!
741 2011-03-16 01:42:50 <xelister> POSITIVE-LOOPBACK reacotr (in case of a failure -> auto INCREASING of reactor power) ?  jesus and someone builded that?  lol russians.
742 2011-03-16 01:42:58 <ArtForz> xelister: yup
743 2011-03-16 01:43:20 <ArtForz> it was totally. fucking. crazy.
744 2011-03-16 01:43:20 <da2ce7> yeah, it was one of the most stupid cases of engneering ever.
745 2011-03-16 01:43:44 <ArtForz> hell, not even automotive engineers are *that* stupid
746 2011-03-16 01:44:08 <gilicorn> theres no engineering argument that has high enough certainty to outweigh the risk of nuclear catastrophe.
747 2011-03-16 01:44:18 <gilicorn> its simply beyond any engineering analysis
748 2011-03-16 01:44:25 <ArtForz> yes, there is
749 2011-03-16 01:44:39 <gilicorn> ArtForz: confidence intervals please
750 2011-03-16 01:44:45 <gilicorn> lets see the model
751 2011-03-16 01:44:47 <ArtForz> by your reasoning, we have to ban automobiles NOW
752 2011-03-16 01:45:04 <da2ce7> ArtForz, when you crash, the have some Plastic explocive uner your seat, to make sure you die?
753 2011-03-16 01:45:14 <gilicorn> no, because if an automobile is 99.9999% safe, you expect < 1 death
754 2011-03-16 01:45:24 <gilicorn> if a nuclear plant is 99.9999% safe you expect a billion deaths
755 2011-03-16 01:45:32 <gilicorn> much different precision
756 2011-03-16 01:45:33 <ArtForz> no you don't
757 2011-03-16 01:45:36 <da2ce7> bullshit
758 2011-03-16 01:45:41 <gilicorn> heh do the math
759 2011-03-16 01:45:47 <gilicorn> calculate the expected value
760 2011-03-16 01:45:51 <ArtForz> contrary to popular myth, radiation isnt THAT deadly
761 2011-03-16 01:46:25 <Netsniper> "And all you have to do is take iodine pills after exposure!"
762 2011-03-16 01:46:29 <da2ce7> radiation spreads very quicky... soon becomes low enougth to only slightly cause harm
763 2011-03-16 01:46:30 <Netsniper> ...
764 2011-03-16 01:46:54 <gilicorn> catastrophic failure means 500 million are impacted at once. for a car, catastrophic failure means 1 person is impacted at once (if you discover a design flaw in cars, you can stop driving until its fixed, unlike a nuke accident which unfolds immediately)
765 2011-03-16 01:47:29 <ArtForz> gilicorn: yet more people are killed in traffic EACH DAY than in the whole fucking history of nuke plants...
766 2011-03-16 01:47:33 <TheKid> yes, because spotting a design flaw causes the delicate balance that physics had been keeping to collapse and instantly cause a meltdown
767 2011-03-16 01:47:36 <gilicorn> thats true.. cars are horrible unsafe
768 2011-03-16 01:47:40 <ArtForz> yep
769 2011-03-16 01:47:59 <ArtForz> yet I see no calls to ban cars until we figure out a way to make em 5 orders of magnitude safer
770 2011-03-16 01:47:59 <TheKid> had to come back to turn off the binging sound :P
771 2011-03-16 01:48:41 <gilicorn> TheKid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory
772 2011-03-16 01:48:43 <da2ce7> *238
773 2011-03-16 01:48:47 <ArtForz> same flawed risk assessment as with plane crashes
774 2011-03-16 01:48:49 <gilicorn> The non-computability of the probability of the consequential rare events using scientific methods (owing to the very nature of small probabilities)
775 2011-03-16 01:49:18 <gilicorn> current engineering methods cannot estimate safety factors with enough precision to make the expected value of nuclear operation neutral
776 2011-03-16 01:49:31 <da2ce7> gilicorn you are being silly, I delcar you are a troll.
777 2011-03-16 01:49:35 <da2ce7> :)
778 2011-03-16 01:49:38 <gilicorn> sorry.. but you are dealing with simulations that are exponential in time/space
779 2011-03-16 01:49:44 <gilicorn> da2ce7: "delcar" ?
780 2011-03-16 01:49:56 <kiba> I wonder if gilicorn is the same guy yesterday that argue that spectulators are evil
781 2011-03-16 01:50:14 <da2ce7> declare
782 2011-03-16 01:50:22 <ArtForz> speculators are evil. it just depends on the definition of evil :P
783 2011-03-16 01:50:44 <gilicorn> just calculate the expected value of a nuclear catastrophe
784 2011-03-16 01:50:45 <kiba> ArtForz: I have a sneaking suspicion that he is the same guy
785 2011-03-16 01:50:48 <ArtForz> if you define "evil" as "being a speculator" ... then they most certainly are ;)
786 2011-03-16 01:51:02 <ArtForz> gilicorn: "not much"
787 2011-03-16 01:51:03 <sneak> hi
788 2011-03-16 01:51:14 <da2ce7> hey sneak
789 2011-03-16 01:51:21 <gilicorn> lets say the probability of a catastrophic event is 10^-7
790 2011-03-16 01:51:24 <sneak> wie gehts, ArtForz
791 2011-03-16 01:51:26 <gilicorn> (per year per plant)
792 2011-03-16 01:51:49 <kiba> I wish for hot wings right now
793 2011-03-16 01:51:52 <gilicorn> 100 years, 1000 plants that means you expect 5 million deaths
794 2011-03-16 01:51:57 <sneak> kiba: i ate like 30 hot wings last month
795 2011-03-16 01:52:02 <sneak> went to my favorite wing place in nyc
796 2011-03-16 01:52:14 <gilicorn> great! now if you have an argument for why probability and expected value shouldnt be used that is a philosophical objection
797 2011-03-16 01:52:17 <da2ce7> yummy
798 2011-03-16 01:52:17 <kiba> sneak: I can eat 10 extra-hot wings in one sitting
799 2011-03-16 01:52:21 <kiba> apperantly, it is no longer hot to me
800 2011-03-16 01:52:24 <ArtForz> yet we didnt have 2 million deaths in 40 years ....
801 2011-03-16 01:52:47 <ArtForz> so the actual values have to be way lower or the gods of probability are fucking with us
802 2011-03-16 01:52:49 <gribble> it's the same trollish guy from yesterday.
803 2011-03-16 01:52:53 <xelister> what was the ban about?
804 2011-03-16 01:52:54 <sneak> da2ce7: they aren't made into
805 2011-03-16 01:52:59 <sneak> they -are- yummy food
806 2011-03-16 01:53:06 <da2ce7> :)
807 2011-03-16 01:53:12 <sneak> someone has obv never had chicken sashimi
808 2011-03-16 01:53:27 <validus> ignoring ips is <3
809 2011-03-16 01:54:01 <da2ce7> sneak what do you do? member on the forum?
810 2011-03-16 01:54:09 <sneak> i eat chicken wings
811 2011-03-16 01:54:12 <sneak> sometimes i write code
812 2011-03-16 01:54:28 <sneak> generally i am just an arrogant self-important prick
813 2011-03-16 01:54:28 <validus> chicken gizzards w/ hot sauce is better :P
814 2011-03-16 01:54:36 <sneak> running around doing various things that are important to me
815 2011-03-16 01:54:40 <da2ce7> ooh nice, what type of code
816 2011-03-16 01:54:50 <sneak> mostly perl, some python, now more and more objC
817 2011-03-16 01:55:00 <sneak> php when i can't avoid it
818 2011-03-16 01:55:01 <ArtForz> define sneak: advanced machine to turn chicken wings into code and arguments
819 2011-03-16 01:55:03 <ArtForz> *ducks*
820 2011-03-16 01:55:12 <validus> lol
821 2011-03-16 01:55:16 <da2ce7> lol
822 2011-03-16 01:55:28 <sneak> ArtForz: i think it was someone at the IAS who said mathemeticians are machines for turning coffee into theorems
823 2011-03-16 01:55:39 <ArtForz> yep
824 2011-03-16 01:55:40 <sneak> also, this machine requires more than just chikkenz
825 2011-03-16 01:55:48 <sneak> caffeine, h2o, intertrons, boobs
826 2011-03-16 01:55:57 <sneak> but yeah, with those inputs, output is consistient
827 2011-03-16 01:56:11 <sneak> my whole life is basically an engineering effort to keep that basic function supplied with pipeline
828 2011-03-16 01:56:37 <validus> im sure your output keeps going if you catch my drift
829 2011-03-16 01:56:43 <ArtForz> you forgot C2H6O
830 2011-03-16 01:56:43 <validus> throne room is best reading time
831 2011-03-16 01:56:51 <sneak> c2h60?
832 2011-03-16 01:56:55 <sneak> i forgot lots of things, probably
833 2011-03-16 01:57:01 <sneak> i take a multivitamin and delegate
834 2011-03-16 01:57:14 <ArtForz> ethanol
835 2011-03-16 01:57:22 <da2ce7> it makes you make bad code
836 2011-03-16 01:57:28 <da2ce7> or dance.
837 2011-03-16 01:57:31 <ArtForz> see ballmer peak ;)
838 2011-03-16 01:57:36 <sneak> i'm not a big fan of ethanol
839 2011-03-16 01:57:41 <sneak> i have a mild allergy to it
840 2011-03-16 01:57:49 <da2ce7> asian?
841 2011-03-16 01:57:59 <ArtForz> http://xkcd.com/323/
842 2011-03-16 01:58:02 <sneak> negative, white american male, 185cm 100kg
843 2011-03-16 01:58:08 <sneak> aka Privileged Motherfucker(tm)
844 2011-03-16 01:59:07 <sneak> i think you have to be in some tiny top fraction of humans on earth in the first world to care aboutbitcoin
845 2011-03-16 01:59:15 <ArtForz> yep
846 2011-03-16 01:59:23 <da2ce7> yepo
847 2011-03-16 01:59:31 <sneak> statistically, most humans are probably more worried about things like food and water
848 2011-03-16 01:59:34 <da2ce7> most people arround here are good, other than the trolls.
849 2011-03-16 01:59:35 <kiba> so what if we are privileged motherfuckers?
850 2011-03-16 01:59:39 <ArtForz> having the luxury to do intellectual stuff is fucking great
851 2011-03-16 01:59:40 <sneak> if their donkey is gonna die
852 2011-03-16 01:59:44 <sneak> etc
853 2011-03-16 01:59:45 <kiba> I don't give a damn
854 2011-03-16 01:59:57 <ArtForz> kiba: your name is not hoover?
855 2011-03-16 02:00:04 <bt2100> i'm pretty poor; i found bitcoin because someone on twitter mentioned it.
856 2011-03-16 02:00:12 <sneak> bt2100: the poorest person on the internet is rich
857 2011-03-16 02:00:21 <bt2100> sneak: i'll agree with you there
858 2011-03-16 02:00:27 <validus> i got asked by someoen since i look up internet marketing and ways to make money
859 2011-03-16 02:00:29 <kiba> ArtForz: well, I think a good goal as privilleged motherfuckers is to increase wealth so that the rest of humanity don't have to worry about food and water
860 2011-03-16 02:00:33 <validus> with 0 cost investments
861 2011-03-16 02:00:36 <ArtForz> dunno, never met him
862 2011-03-16 02:00:37 <validus> its not easy lol
863 2011-03-16 02:00:40 <da2ce7> ArtForz is richer.
864 2011-03-16 02:01:09 <sneak> i spent six thousand dollars last month on airfare, hotels, cocaine, whiskey, and steak
865 2011-03-16 02:01:16 <bt2100> damn man
866 2011-03-16 02:01:26 <ArtForz> no hookers?
867 2011-03-16 02:01:26 <bt2100> that's a lot of airfare
868 2011-03-16 02:01:27 <sneak> in ~8 cities in north america
869 2011-03-16 02:01:31 <validus> thats a lot of coke
870 2011-03-16 02:01:37 <validus> your name should be charlie
871 2011-03-16 02:01:38 <validus> lol
872 2011-03-16 02:01:41 <sneak> ArtForz: lol if you have blow + hotel + whiskey and still have to pay for it, you're Doing It Wrong
873 2011-03-16 02:01:49 <validus> true that
874 2011-03-16 02:02:02 <sneak> i took my Great Annual American Vacation
875 2011-03-16 02:02:11 <validus> nice where ud go
876 2011-03-16 02:02:16 <sneak> montreal/boston/dc/nyc/toronto/detroit/sfba
877 2011-03-16 02:02:25 <da2ce7> nice
878 2011-03-16 02:02:27 <da2ce7> :)
879 2011-03-16 02:02:30 <validus> you ride the ferris wheel in the virgin megastore?
880 2011-03-16 02:02:39 <sneak> huh?
881 2011-03-16 02:02:42 <sneak> where?
882 2011-03-16 02:02:43 <validus> nyc
883 2011-03-16 02:02:45 <validus> its 3 stories
884 2011-03-16 02:02:46 <sneak> i thought they closed it
885 2011-03-16 02:02:51 <sneak> the one in union square?
886 2011-03-16 02:02:53 <validus> oh i havent been there in about 4 years
887 2011-03-16 02:02:56 <sneak> it's been closed for a while
888 2011-03-16 02:03:02 <sneak> yeah, that's about when i moved away, but i'm back at least once a year
889 2011-03-16 02:03:04 <validus> i did get a limo ride for 5 bucks
890 2011-03-16 02:03:09 <da2ce7> *Washington.
891 2011-03-16 02:03:28 <sneak> i hailed a limo with a 1cm sheaf of hundreds in the middle of union square on new year's day at 00:30 while it was raining
892 2011-03-16 02:03:36 <sneak> surrounded by hundreds of people trying to get cabs
893 2011-03-16 02:03:38 <validus> had 6 other ppl and got off the subway and dude was like cheap cheap limo. how about free.99 thats cheap. he's like about 5 a head for as logn as you want
894 2011-03-16 02:03:39 <sneak> it was one of my best moments
895 2011-03-16 02:03:55 <sneak> i raised my arm like a bronze god of capitalism
896 2011-03-16 02:03:55 <validus> got him to drop us off in central park and pick us up an hour later
897 2011-03-16 02:04:08 <validus> i wanted to find the pigeon lady from home alone :P
898 2011-03-16 02:04:14 <sneak> hahaha
899 2011-03-16 02:04:16 <sneak> i miss new york
900 2011-03-16 02:04:19 <validus> instead i met a bum named zulu and was playing his violin
901 2011-03-16 02:04:25 <validus> was great times
902 2011-03-16 02:04:48 <validus> gave a bum my old pair of shoes to since i just bought new ones
903 2011-03-16 02:05:06 <validus> but no one knows how to get to howard sterns building. we asked everyone and every cop we saw
904 2011-03-16 02:05:17 <sneak> oh you were just touristing?
905 2011-03-16 02:05:23 <validus> sort of , i traveled for a living
906 2011-03-16 02:05:32 <validus> so off of work and off to the city
907 2011-03-16 02:05:57 <validus> i found nyc one of the easiest cities to get around i ever been to
908 2011-03-16 02:06:42 <sneak> when you use "to be" in the past tense like that (perfect) you have to use a helper verb, like "have", e.g. "have been"
909 2011-03-16 02:07:06 <validus> i only worry about my grammar punctuation when im responding on online college, but im working on getting into a better habit
910 2011-03-16 02:07:25 <sneak> drives me up a wall
911 2011-03-16 02:07:39 <validus> well im in the midwest but i grew up in the south so thats not helping any :P
912 2011-03-16 02:07:48 <validus> i can speak mumble and slur very well
913 2011-03-16 02:08:17 <validus> but i have a weird accent now, from traveling so much, it usually just changes to where i'm at
914 2011-03-16 02:08:26 <sneak> that happens to everyone, given enough time
915 2011-03-16 02:08:29 <validus> and i know i shoudlnt end a sentence with "at" and i shoudlnt start with but
916 2011-03-16 02:08:42 <sneak> i speak shitty slang nasally north german now
917 2011-03-16 02:08:51 <validus> you should have seen my first paper in orientation i had to send to their robot checker it hated me
918 2011-03-16 02:08:56 <sneak> do not go to the poor gutterpunk city in a country to learn its language
919 2011-03-16 02:09:19 <validus> you adapt learn and move on, i dont judge someone by what they say or how they say it, it might not be their fault
920 2011-03-16 02:09:25 <validus> if its by choice thats a different story
921 2011-03-16 02:10:04 <validus> but i screwed with nyc hardcore and brought out my southern accent , i had so much fun lol
922 2011-03-16 02:10:34 <validus> like i had on a cowboy hat and i was staring at a building and i said as southern as i could, boyy that building shore is tall. then poked at it like it wasnt real. i swear like 12 people stopped and stared
923 2011-03-16 02:10:36 <sneak> my new girlfriend pronouces "ice" like "ass", she's from arkansas
924 2011-03-16 02:10:43 <sneak> HAHAHA
925 2011-03-16 02:10:54 <validus> was hilarious
926 2011-03-16 02:11:11 <sneak> new yorkers are easy to troll
927 2011-03-16 02:11:17 <sneak> google "improv anywhere" for more examples
928 2011-03-16 02:11:25 <validus> ya i only got into it with 1 person my whole time there
929 2011-03-16 02:11:37 <validus> i love how you say what you want. it doesnt matter what you say and no one cares
930 2011-03-16 02:11:48 <sneak> that kind of density dictates certain types of social conformity
931 2011-03-16 02:11:59 <validus> it makes it hell in selling door to door to
932 2011-03-16 02:12:03 <sneak> e.g. not giving a shit about what people say, not making too much eye contact, keeping to yourself in public
933 2011-03-16 02:12:05 <validus> im selling fucking books for 25 fucking dollars, buy one
934 2011-03-16 02:12:08 <validus> that was my sales pitch
935 2011-03-16 02:12:12 <validus> it worked great
936 2011-03-16 02:12:29 <validus> you have approximitely 5 seconds before that door is slamming in your face lol
937 2011-03-16 02:13:02 <validus> i knocked a cops door and he thought i was lying so he called his buddies and they said i was going to have to kickbox their chief to get ouf it and started measuring my hands trying to scare me
938 2011-03-16 02:13:24 <validus> like really dude give me a break. just because im from the south doesnt mean im retarded
939 2011-03-16 02:13:38 <sneak> yeah it does
940 2011-03-16 02:13:41 <sneak> :
941 2011-03-16 02:13:42 <jaxono> validus: is this the story abot the time you smoked a lot of crack
942 2011-03-16 02:13:43 <sneak> :P
943 2011-03-16 02:13:47 <validus> nah im sofistimicated redneck :P
944 2011-03-16 02:13:58 <validus> ive never touched rock and never will and no one will bring that crapt around me
945 2011-03-16 02:13:59 <sneak> mint juleps on the porch kinda southerner?
946 2011-03-16 02:14:15 <sneak> in a white silk suit while the slaves work the plantation?
947 2011-03-16 02:14:26 <validus> plantation homes are all over where i grew up
948 2011-03-16 02:14:28 <sneak> monticello style
949 2011-03-16 02:14:38 <jaxono> j/k validus
950 2011-03-16 02:14:39 <sneak> i'm down with t.j. culture
951 2011-03-16 02:14:48 <validus> its ok jaxono: just clarifying i figured you were j/k :P
952 2011-03-16 02:14:59 <sneak> wtf can i do with a thousand bitcoins
953 2011-03-16 02:15:07 <validus> like boomhower on king of the hill i can understand everything he says with no problem
954 2011-03-16 02:15:21 <sneak> validus: yeah everyone can, otherwise the show would flop
955 2011-03-16 02:15:22 <validus> and the fox censors can't, because i cant believe some of the things i hear
956 2011-03-16 02:15:32 <validus> nah not everyone
957 2011-03-16 02:15:37 <sneak> nah, they can too, they just let it slide because it could be argued that's not what he's saying :P
958 2011-03-16 02:15:37 <validus> i know people that struggle with it
959 2011-03-16 02:15:49 <validus> but i talk normal now
960 2011-03-16 02:15:53 <validus> unless im really drunk or pissed off
961 2011-03-16 02:15:57 <validus> then my accent comes out lol
962 2011-03-16 02:16:08 <sneak> except for the fact that you unknowingly omit adverbs? :P
963 2011-03-16 02:16:19 <validus> yep
964 2011-03-16 02:16:30 <validus> i never said my typing is perfect or speech but i do try to correct myself irl if i can
965 2011-03-16 02:17:01 <validus> in high school before i moved i was passing German with a B and almost failing english
966 2011-03-16 02:17:06 <validus> and im old now so ....
967 2011-03-16 02:17:38 <sneak> learning german is hard.  not because of german, but because it's hard to practice.
968 2011-03-16 02:17:46 <validus> i saved the info from the writing center of excellence of the college papers do's and don'ts because i dont know them
969 2011-03-16 02:17:53 <sneak> rare to find germans who won't stick to english
970 2011-03-16 02:17:56 <validus> i have no idea
971 2011-03-16 02:18:09 <validus> i dont remember most german, i can flirt, ask for beer, and piss someone off
972 2011-03-16 02:18:18 <sneak> deine mutter sucks cocks in hell
973 2011-03-16 02:18:27 <validus> dont know how to spell most of it either lol
974 2011-03-16 02:18:32 <validus> like ich haben schnonen hoden
975 2011-03-16 02:18:35 <sneak> i have the same problem
976 2011-03-16 02:19:21 <sneak> also, you seem to have forgotten basic conjugation, but it's ok because it's basically encoded parity information anyway