1 2011-03-20 00:05:28 <slush1> what I need to change to support >32 bit extranonce?
  2 2011-03-20 00:07:14 <sipa> slush1: where?
  3 2011-03-20 00:07:43 <slush1> in bitcoind
  4 2011-03-20 00:09:33 <sipa> nExtraNonce will need to become something larger than unsigned int, in that case
  5 2011-03-20 00:09:46 <sipa> look at IncrementExtraNonce
  6 2011-03-20 00:10:10 <sipa> you could turn it into a CBigNum
  7 2011-03-20 00:11:00 <slush1> sipa: how many bits will be used then?
  8 2011-03-20 00:11:09 <sipa> as many as you like
  9 2011-03-20 00:11:33 <slush1> so I can encode whole Internet into it then?
 10 2011-03-20 00:11:36 <slush1> (except porn)
 11 2011-03-20 00:11:56 <slush1> bad joke, sorry
 12 2011-03-20 00:11:58 <slush1> thanks for advice :)
 13 2011-03-20 00:12:22 <sipa> you'll need to change things in a few places, i think
 14 2011-03-20 00:13:34 <slush1> well, it looks like nExtraNonce is already stored as CBigNum
 15 2011-03-20 00:13:49 <slush1> so if I understand correctly, I need to modify only function header
 16 2011-03-20 00:14:03 <slush1> (and calls to it)
 17 2011-03-20 00:14:58 <sipa> indeed
 18 2011-03-20 00:18:03 <Kiba> MUHAHHAHA
 19 2011-03-20 00:19:27 <overtorque> is BTC going up or down? someone tell me.. and please be correct
 20 2011-03-20 00:20:09 <devrandom> yes
 21 2011-03-20 00:21:51 <hacim> how do I read the top chart on http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/mtgoxUSD.html ?
 22 2011-03-20 00:22:43 <overtorque> green bar means it closed higher than it started
 23 2011-03-20 00:22:46 <overtorque> red means the opposite
 24 2011-03-20 00:23:00 <overtorque> the thick part is between the opening and closing price.. the line is the high and low for that time period
 25 2011-03-20 00:23:22 <Kiba> the bulls and bears had been fighting all days
 26 2011-03-20 00:23:43 <Kiba> typically, there's been a dramatic drop followed by a dramatic rise and then...
 27 2011-03-20 00:23:46 <overtorque> http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg60zvztgSzm1g10zm2g25
 28 2011-03-20 00:23:52 <overtorque> that chart hacim ?
 29 2011-03-20 00:24:20 <Diablo-D3> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/03/19/169217/Pruned-Microchips-Twice-As-Fast-and-Efficient?from=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Slashdot%2Fslashdot+%28Slashdot%29
 30 2011-03-20 00:24:21 <Diablo-D3> wow
 31 2011-03-20 00:24:23 <Diablo-D3> Slashdot fails
 32 2011-03-20 00:24:34 <Diablo-D3> Intel and AMD have been doing this for years
 33 2011-03-20 00:24:36 <Diablo-D3> AMD especially
 34 2011-03-20 00:24:58 <Diablo-D3> it even shows in AMD's intenral microop language, it has ops ONLY for what the chip has hardware for
 35 2011-03-20 00:25:33 <Diablo-D3> everything it doesnt have ops for is shit out as large lists of ops
 36 2011-03-20 00:25:49 <Diablo-D3> AND this is also why very lean RISCs run so fucking fast for their wattage
 37 2011-03-20 00:25:52 <Diablo-D3> theres nothing in them
 38 2011-03-20 00:30:49 <hacim> overtorque: thats the one
 39 2011-03-20 00:31:47 <hacim> overtorque: 'closed higher than it started' -- i dont understand this when the market never actually 'closes'?
 40 2011-03-20 00:32:01 <sipa> i suppose it's just at 24h intervals
 41 2011-03-20 00:32:35 <hacim> yeah that makes sense
 42 2011-03-20 00:32:51 <hacim> overtorque: thanks for the explanation... now what can I do with that information? :)
 43 2011-03-20 00:56:49 <sgornick> hacim: If you aren't familiar with s3052's technical analysis, .. at a minimum it will help chronicle the ride that bitcoin market rate has followed.  http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?p=4480537#post4480537  http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1493.msg67000#msg67000
 44 2011-03-20 01:01:30 <gribble> 114196
 45 2011-03-20 01:01:30 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
 46 2011-03-20 01:02:16 <Diablo-D3> you know, Nadesico is fucked up
 47 2011-03-20 01:02:39 <Diablo-D3> in Nadesico, a "real robot" genre anime, they watch a "super robot" genre Anime called Gekiganger III
 48 2011-03-20 01:03:20 <Diablo-D3> except theres an episode of Nadesico which is really an episode of Gekiganger III, where the cast of Gekiganger III are watching a filler clips episode of Nadesico
 49 2011-03-20 01:03:33 <Diablo-D3> and then the cast of Gekiganger III are inspired by it to do shit
 50 2011-03-20 01:03:43 <Diablo-D3> oh, and its canon to Gekiganger III
 51 2011-03-20 01:03:56 <Diablo-D3> it shows up in later "episodes" of it when the cast of Nadesico watch it
 52 2011-03-20 01:03:57 <Diablo-D3> so
 53 2011-03-20 01:04:13 <Diablo-D3> Nadesico is inspired by Gekiganger III which is inspired by Nadesico
 54 2011-03-20 01:04:27 <Diablo-D3> which are both shows watched by their cast in their respective universes
 55 2011-03-20 01:06:19 <Validus> ...
 56 2011-03-20 01:06:33 <Diablo-D3> yeah, how the fuck does that work
 57 2011-03-20 01:06:50 <Validus> i dont know but it sounds good. and thats what matters
 58 2011-03-20 01:06:51 <Validus> lol
 59 2011-03-20 01:07:07 <Diablo-D3> well, Nadesico is a parody of real robot shows
 60 2011-03-20 01:07:18 <Diablo-D3> Gekiganger III is a parody of super robot shows
 61 2011-03-20 01:07:27 <Diablo-D3> and Gekiganger III is a show within a show
 62 2011-03-20 01:07:37 <Diablo-D3> but Nadesico is a show within Gegkiganger III as well
 63 2011-03-20 01:07:45 <genjix> cool! i just found an easter egg in ubuntu bash
 64 2011-03-20 01:07:51 <genjix> can anyone check if they have it too?
 65 2011-03-20 01:07:53 <genjix> :(){ :|: & };:
 66 2011-03-20 01:07:55 <genjix> type that
 67 2011-03-20 01:08:03 <Diablo-D3> genjix: tee hee
 68 2011-03-20 01:08:07 <Diablo-D3> genjix: :D :D :D :D :D
 69 2011-03-20 01:08:09 <genjix> you get to play space invaders
 70 2011-03-20 01:08:12 <genjix> :D
 71 2011-03-20 01:08:23 <Diablo-D3> btw, that doesnt work on BFS, just for the record
 72 2011-03-20 01:09:10 <genjix> that's a shame. they're obviously not very fun people.
 73 2011-03-20 01:19:47 <dissipate> genjix, how goes?
 74 2011-03-20 01:24:12 <genjix> dissipate: i got a vps from MagicalTux ... but still waiting for it to come through
 75 2011-03-20 01:24:19 <genjix> he's not responding yet
 76 2011-03-20 01:24:38 <dissipate> genjix, it's not automated? weird.
 77 2011-03-20 01:24:44 <genjix> https://www.kalyhost.com/payment.html?order=a785d3af-3775-4cf9-bad0-40b8b72f8b5c&Locale=en_US
 78 2011-03-20 01:25:31 <genjix> i haven't got an email yet
 79 2011-03-20 01:26:29 <dissipate> genjix, how many months does that get you?
 80 2011-03-20 01:27:31 <genjix> 3 but mtux said he'll probably extend it.
 81 2011-03-20 01:27:49 <genjix> so might be longer
 82 2011-03-20 01:28:17 <MagicalTux> genjix, ?
 83 2011-03-20 01:28:41 <MagicalTux> you should have gotten an email a while ago
 84 2011-03-20 01:29:07 <genjix> i got nothing...
 85 2011-03-20 01:29:08 <MagicalTux> like 30 minutes before you answered to dissipate
 86 2011-03-20 01:29:09 <MagicalTux> :p
 87 2011-03-20 01:29:18 <MagicalTux> I see the mail outgoing
 88 2011-03-20 01:29:32 <genjix> bollocsnutsack@yahoo.co.uk
 89 2011-03-20 01:29:41 <MagicalTux> no
 90 2011-03-20 01:29:57 <MagicalTux> hotmail
 91 2011-03-20 01:29:58 <dissipate> wow, that's quite an email
 92 2011-03-20 01:30:16 <MagicalTux> https://www.kalyhost.com/manager/account/profil.html <- genjix check this page to see the email attached to your account
 93 2011-03-20 01:30:19 <genjix> it's my spam mail
 94 2011-03-20 01:31:29 <MagicalTux> anyway I can confirm your VPS was delievered
 95 2011-03-20 01:31:37 <genjix> i see.
 96 2011-03-20 01:32:05 <MagicalTux> things are not easy here as I don't have a permanent internet connection
 97 2011-03-20 01:32:27 <genjix> "Your password is invalide, or your new password does't math, or your new email doesn't match"
 98 2011-03-20 01:32:27 <MagicalTux> (for now)
 99 2011-03-20 01:32:36 <genjix> needs some spelling corrections :)
100 2011-03-20 01:32:39 <MagicalTux> o
101 2011-03-20 01:32:44 <MagicalTux> stupid french canadian ><
102 2011-03-20 01:32:50 <MagicalTux> shouldn't have left him do that
103 2011-03-20 01:32:56 <genjix> also "-Confirmer l'Adresse :"
104 2011-03-20 01:33:05 <MagicalTux> yeah
105 2011-03-20 01:33:14 <MagicalTux> let me check the i18n catalog
106 2011-03-20 01:33:24 <genjix> "Warning: changing any information here will logout you from any other location you might be logged in from."
107 2011-03-20 01:33:31 <genjix> "will log you out"
108 2011-03-20 01:34:15 <genjix> "from any other location where you are logged in."
109 2011-03-20 01:34:41 <genjix> anyway, it's not letting me update my email.
110 2011-03-20 01:34:47 <MagicalTux> wanna work on kalyhost ?
111 2011-03-20 01:35:16 <MagicalTux> :p
112 2011-03-20 01:35:20 <MagicalTux> I fixed a few things
113 2011-03-20 01:35:21 <genjix> you mean translate? I'll help you out. send me the file.
114 2011-03-20 01:35:26 <MagicalTux> make sure you provided your old password
115 2011-03-20 01:36:33 <genjix> "Email or password change with sucess" -> "Email or password change unsuccessful."
116 2011-03-20 01:36:57 <MagicalTux> nah
117 2011-03-20 01:36:59 <MagicalTux> successful
118 2011-03-20 01:37:15 <MagicalTux> "Your account information were modified successfully."
119 2011-03-20 01:37:16 <genjix> but my email didn't change?
120 2011-03-20 01:37:16 <MagicalTux> :p
121 2011-03-20 01:37:21 <MagicalTux> reload page?
122 2011-03-20 01:37:39 <genjix> nope
123 2011-03-20 01:37:39 <MagicalTux> the guy who worked on kalyhost did a lot of crap >.<
124 2011-03-20 01:38:05 <genjix> i think your vps are great but your site is horrible :p
125 2011-03-20 01:38:32 <MagicalTux> mh
126 2011-03-20 01:38:36 <MagicalTux> I just tried the form
127 2011-03-20 01:38:38 <MagicalTux> it works fine
128 2011-03-20 01:38:45 <MagicalTux> I updated my account's email without any problem
129 2011-03-20 01:38:50 <MagicalTux> just put the old password in password
130 2011-03-20 01:38:57 <MagicalTux> and new email twice in the email fields
131 2011-03-20 01:39:03 <MagicalTux> no trouble or whathowver
132 2011-03-20 01:39:40 <dissipate> genjix, are you up and running?
133 2011-03-20 01:39:48 <MagicalTux> genjix, for VPS you might want to use autovps.net the interface is a bit less buggy (but missing account management pages >.< )
134 2011-03-20 01:39:52 <xelister> bubble bursting? ;) 0.70 ?
135 2011-03-20 01:41:01 <JFK911> rip bitcoins
136 2011-03-20 01:42:01 <genjix> MagicalTux: have you used xpra? it's an X version of GNU screen... you can watch me
137 2011-03-20 01:42:06 <genjix> i can change my password
138 2011-03-20 01:42:09 <genjix> but not email
139 2011-03-20 01:42:33 <genjix> dissipate: nearly :p
140 2011-03-20 01:42:55 <MagicalTux> genjix, are you sure you never used that email to create an account on kalyhost before?
141 2011-03-20 01:43:13 <genjix> i did for pastecoin, but for spesmilo i used a yahoo one
142 2011-03-20 01:43:47 <genjix> xelister: 0.6 on bitcoin central :)
143 2011-03-20 01:43:50 <MagicalTux> you cannot have 2 kalyhost accounts with the same email
144 2011-03-20 01:45:00 <joepie91> guess I was just in time to convert my btc into $
145 2011-03-20 01:45:01 <genjix> im using the same account from before (with the hotmail address)
146 2011-03-20 01:45:01 <joepie91> :|
147 2011-03-20 01:45:16 <genjix> joepie91: wrong way around.
148 2011-03-20 01:45:28 <joepie91> howso?
149 2011-03-20 01:45:42 <joepie91> if 1 btc = 0.6 that is worse than 1 btc = 0.85
150 2011-03-20 01:45:46 <joepie91> if you are going from btc to $
151 2011-03-20 01:46:05 <genjix> xelister: see my first post http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3396.0
152 2011-03-20 01:46:13 <genjix> *see the first post
153 2011-03-20 01:46:15 <genjix> lol
154 2011-03-20 01:46:44 <MagicalTux> genjix, your email ?
155 2011-03-20 01:46:55 <MagicalTux> (in privmsg if you want)
156 2011-03-20 01:47:18 <genjix> MagicalTux: i can login, then when i go to the profile, using the same password I can set a new password, but i cannot change the email.
157 2011-03-20 01:47:36 <genjix> bollocsnutsack@yahoo.co.uk
158 2011-03-20 01:47:53 <genjix> so probably your form has a bug in it :p
159 2011-03-20 01:48:05 <joepie91> anyhow, time to sleep
160 2011-03-20 01:48:06 <joepie91> goodnight all
161 2011-03-20 01:48:47 <MagicalTux> as I thought
162 2011-03-20 01:48:55 <MagicalTux> genjix, you already have an account on kalyhost with that email
163 2011-03-20 01:48:59 <MagicalTux> this explains why you cannot set it
164 2011-03-20 01:49:07 <genjix> aha
165 2011-03-20 01:49:16 <genjix> yes
166 2011-03-20 01:49:51 <MagicalTux> genjix, anyway if you have access to your hotmail account, your invoice and vps ip/root password were sent there
167 2011-03-20 01:49:56 <genjix> it should say why instead of saying "wrong password, cannot change."
168 2011-03-20 01:50:04 <genjix> no i do not. hotmail locked me out.
169 2011-03-20 01:50:11 <MagicalTux> genjix, the system provides the info, the guy who did the site didn't use it
170 2011-03-20 01:50:58 <MagicalTux> genjix, if you update your email with freenode's nickserv, I might consider forwarding your vps access there
171 2011-03-20 01:51:20 <MagicalTux> (and make my system add your genjix2 account in Cc of mails to genjix account)
172 2011-03-20 01:52:12 <genjix> is there any way to disable the email completely?
173 2011-03-20 01:52:30 <MagicalTux> you don't want to know when your vps will expire?
174 2011-03-20 01:53:05 <genjix> better than allowing people the chance to crack my email and gain access
175 2011-03-20 01:53:11 <MagicalTux> :p
176 2011-03-20 01:53:13 <MagicalTux> ok
177 2011-03-20 01:53:44 <MagicalTux> you'll be logged out
178 2011-03-20 01:53:49 <genjix> you could set login messages.
179 2011-03-20 01:54:01 <MagicalTux> yep
180 2011-03-20 01:54:10 <genjix> instead of email. (I think it works by system mail)
181 2011-03-20 01:54:28 <MagicalTux> I'll do something to log all outgoing emails for each account anyway
182 2011-03-20 01:54:37 <MagicalTux> so you'll be able to disable completly email for your account
183 2011-03-20 01:54:43 <MagicalTux> for now I've set it to something else
184 2011-03-20 01:55:11 <genjix> kk
185 2011-03-20 01:55:14 <MagicalTux> anyway
186 2011-03-20 01:55:18 <genjix> i always recommend your vps
187 2011-03-20 01:55:35 <MagicalTux> you could login to kalyhost, and reinstall your VPS (It'll reset the root password to the current vnc password)
188 2011-03-20 01:56:00 <genjix> other services always install weird stuff like apache to /opt/ when i just want a blank ubuntu
189 2011-03-20 01:56:04 <MagicalTux> genjix, I'd recommend you recommend autovps for now (at least until I can hire someone to fix kalyhost)
190 2011-03-20 01:56:20 <genjix> what needs fixing?
191 2011-03-20 01:56:33 <MagicalTux> a lot of stuff :D
192 2011-03-20 01:56:50 <MagicalTux> some forms are inert with IE, a lot of pages do not use the i18n system, etc
193 2011-03-20 01:57:04 <MagicalTux> I was looking for someone I could pay in bitcoins
194 2011-03-20 01:57:21 <MagicalTux> anyway gotta go now
195 2011-03-20 01:57:27 <genjix> kk, stay safe
196 2011-03-20 01:57:34 <genjix> put an ad on marketplace maybe
197 2011-03-20 01:57:48 <MagicalTux> (I also need to hire someone for PR)
198 2011-03-20 01:57:56 <MagicalTux> (like putting hire ads)
199 2011-03-20 01:58:00 <MagicalTux> (anyway cya)
200 2011-03-20 01:58:00 <xelister> genjix: people should invest into improving bitcoin, like into bitcoin over freenet =)
201 2011-03-20 01:58:04 <genjix> hah i cant help you with that :p
202 2011-03-20 01:58:19 <genjix> xelister: that's why dissipate bought me this vps
203 2011-03-20 01:58:29 <xelister> why/
204 2011-03-20 01:58:47 <genjix> you didn't see the site?
205 2011-03-20 01:58:51 <xelister> which one
206 2011-03-20 01:58:56 <genjix> k hopefully i'll have it up soonish
207 2011-03-20 02:01:16 <xelister> bbl
208 2011-03-20 02:01:53 <dissipate> genjix, you still don't have access? that sucks.
209 2011-03-20 02:04:04 <jgarzik> sipa: any chance you can review my latest scratch-code patch?  in particular, I am unsure yet that the add-keys-and-TX-to-wallet is 100% correct, and you are working in that area right now.
210 2011-03-20 02:05:49 <Kiba> interesting
211 2011-03-20 02:06:07 <Kiba> well, not that
212 2011-03-20 02:06:09 <Kiba> interesting
213 2011-03-20 02:06:16 <Kiba> but it's good news to see that bitcoin is spreading and spreading
214 2011-03-20 02:06:43 <sipa> jgarzik: sure, but now i'm going to sleep
215 2011-03-20 02:06:45 <Blitzboom> that podcast with gavin?
216 2011-03-20 02:12:38 <Kiba> Blitzboom: yeah, it's comperhensive...it's as good if not better than Security NOw
217 2011-03-20 02:12:52 <Blitzboom> better
218 2011-03-20 02:20:36 <dissipate> Kiba, looks like the spreading of bitcoin has slowed. price is dropping.
219 2011-03-20 02:21:34 <Kiba> dissipate: it's to be expected after spectuclar growth
220 2011-03-20 02:21:42 <Kiba> February was great
221 2011-03-20 02:21:54 <Kiba> March is looking healthy
222 2011-03-20 02:21:58 <Kiba> we're keeping all our gains
223 2011-03-20 02:21:59 <Kiba> in growth
224 2011-03-20 02:23:15 <lfm> I think dissipate has a vested interest in the price dropping and even in the seeming of the price dropping
225 2011-03-20 02:23:56 <Blitzboom> haha
226 2011-03-20 02:24:08 <dissipate> lfm, i'm short 100,000 BTC
227 2011-03-20 02:24:43 <Kiba> lol
228 2011-03-20 02:24:52 <dissipate> j/k
229 2011-03-20 02:24:58 <lfm> see, if you are shorting btc you want the price down
230 2011-03-20 02:25:06 <dissipate> i currently have no monetary investment in bitcoin.
231 2011-03-20 02:30:53 <hacim> sgornick: thanks
232 2011-03-20 03:32:50 <jgarzik> heh
233 2011-03-20 03:33:00 <jgarzik> I wonder if MM will reappear, after the difficulty falls
234 2011-03-20 03:33:18 <jgarzik> manipulated oscillation of difficulty was always a possibility
235 2011-03-20 03:35:08 <ArtForz> guess we'll find out in about 6 days
236 2011-03-20 03:36:36 <ArtForz> I kinda doubt it
237 2011-03-20 03:36:57 <ArtForz> well, the oscillation part
238 2011-03-20 03:37:36 <ArtForz> you need a VAST majority of network power to make that work
239 2011-03-20 03:39:30 <ArtForz> and if you have that as a scenario, it's more profitable for the attacker to pull a mining cartel attack and claim 100% of blocks
240 2011-03-20 03:40:30 <ArtForz> otherwise the oscillations simply don't manifest
241 2011-03-20 03:51:18 <dissipate> i thought someone had a bot net and was generating blocks?
242 2011-03-20 03:51:32 <ArtForz> yes
243 2011-03-20 03:52:06 <ArtForz> somone on the forum claimed that such a mines,leaves,mines,leaves,... would trigger other miners to also do the same thing, only mining in the low difficulty periods
244 2011-03-20 03:52:21 <ArtForz> = setting off difficulty oscillations
245 2011-03-20 03:52:28 <ArtForz> I severely doubt that would happen
246 2011-03-20 03:53:40 <ArtForz> why would a normal miner stop mining just because difficulty went up? less profit is better than no profit.
247 2011-03-20 03:54:29 <gasteve> that's what I wonder...once you start mining...there's very little incentive to stop mining
248 2011-03-20 03:55:38 <ArtForz> the only way I can see that happening is if someone can drive up difficulty to a point where mining is unprofitable for a vast majority of miners
249 2011-03-20 03:55:40 <gasteve> it's really only a question of how much you sell of what you mine (lower price=sell less, keep more ...higher price=sell more, keep less)
250 2011-03-20 03:56:54 <ArtForz> to do that at current prices that someone would need at least 2Th/s, probably even more
251 2011-03-20 03:57:11 <gasteve> but what would be the point of that?  as soon as difficulty falls again, presumably the profitability returns and so would the miners
252 2011-03-20 03:57:31 <ArtForz> yep
253 2011-03-20 03:57:54 <Validus> it would make more sense they would do it to throw off the market, than more profitable
254 2011-03-20 03:58:06 <ArtForz> so... why would someone with 80% or so of total network play difficulty games when he could simply pull off a "fork the chain if someone else finds a block" and claim 100% of generation?
255 2011-03-20 03:58:11 <gasteve> how would it throw off the market?
256 2011-03-20 03:58:19 <Validus> ppl buy/sell at different prices
257 2011-03-20 03:58:35 <Validus> if they feel its easier to mine, then more people start getting onto it also, and prices
258 2011-03-20 03:58:59 <Validus> as it would float for the demand and how easy/hard it is to obtain them
259 2011-03-20 03:59:26 <gasteve> what was the total hash rater of this mystery miner?
260 2011-03-20 03:59:30 <gasteve> *rate
261 2011-03-20 03:59:37 <ArtForz> 350Gh/s or so
262 2011-03-20 03:59:47 <ArtForz> http://bitcoin.atspace.com/mysteryminer.html
263 2011-03-20 04:00:38 <genjix> i prefer sipa's graph
264 2011-03-20 04:00:47 <genjix> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png
265 2011-03-20 04:00:49 <ArtForz> which one?
266 2011-03-20 04:00:52 <genjix> looks more dramatic
267 2011-03-20 04:02:12 <MoonShad0w> That's a lotta nuts! I mean, uh, Gh/s!
268 2011-03-20 04:02:39 <ArtForz> yup
269 2011-03-20 04:03:05 <gasteve> how was the MM hashing capacity separated out from the rest of the network?
270 2011-03-20 04:03:33 <ArtForz> his blocks had a nonstandard coinbase, and all generation was sent to a single address
271 2011-03-20 04:03:41 <gasteve> ah
272 2011-03-20 04:03:53 <gasteve> what does that mean "nonstandard coinbase"?
273 2011-03-20 04:04:17 <ArtForz> normal clients use 0-127 for bnExtraNonce
274 2011-03-20 04:04:59 <gasteve> and MM used what?
275 2011-03-20 04:05:09 <ArtForz> looks like 0-1023
276 2011-03-20 04:05:53 <gasteve> I wonder if MM is still hashing, just sending rewards to a different addres
277 2011-03-20 04:05:56 <gasteve> *address
278 2011-03-20 04:06:02 <gasteve> (or addresses)
279 2011-03-20 04:06:31 <ArtForz> doesnt look like it
280 2011-03-20 04:06:45 <ArtForz> we have at least 200Gh/s from known pools
281 2011-03-20 04:06:53 <gasteve> doesn't seem like the drop off in total capacity is enough to account for 350ghash/s dropping out
282 2011-03-20 04:06:58 <genjix> i deleted my wallet and now bitcoind hands -_-
283 2011-03-20 04:07:03 <genjix> ok works
284 2011-03-20 04:07:29 <ArtForz> errr... sure looks like it
285 2011-03-20 04:07:31 <ArtForz> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png
286 2011-03-20 04:07:57 <ArtForz> from > 800 to 450-500
287 2011-03-20 04:08:47 <gasteve> yeah, I guess so
288 2011-03-20 04:08:54 <ArtForz> it's possible he's still doing 150Gh/s or so, but not much more
289 2011-03-20 04:09:44 <gasteve> I wonder if this is a case where some sysadmin had command of a lot of hardware and was discovered, or feared discovery and shut things down
290 2011-03-20 04:09:59 <genjix> maybe a botnet
291 2011-03-20 04:10:14 <gasteve> but if a botnet, why stop?
292 2011-03-20 04:10:30 <ArtForz> only rented the big one for 2-3 days?
293 2011-03-20 04:10:31 <genjix> would be stupid to continue forever
294 2011-03-20 04:10:42 <genjix> or that
295 2011-03-20 04:10:59 <genjix> maybe the owner has some inside info on his imminent discovery
296 2011-03-20 04:11:10 <genjix> /pending discovery
297 2011-03-20 04:11:44 <gasteve> so, maybe they rented a botnet and figured out it wasn't actually profitable?
298 2011-03-20 04:11:49 <ArtForz> what inside info? iirc Raulo traced back the blocks to one originating IP
299 2011-03-20 04:12:18 <ArtForz> slushs pool ~140Gh/s, deepbit ~53Gh/s, bitcoinpool ~4.5Gh/s, btcmine ~2Gh/s
300 2011-03-20 04:12:19 <genjix> i mean by authorities
301 2011-03-20 04:12:28 <ArtForz> so the pools alone are 200Gh/s
302 2011-03-20 04:13:49 <ArtForz> big solo miners I know of, at least another 50Gh/s
303 2011-03-20 04:15:12 <ArtForz> and my ~40Gh/s
304 2011-03-20 04:15:17 <gasteve> so, 350gh/s ...that's what ...like 600-700 5970's?
305 2011-03-20 04:15:35 <ArtForz> yea
306 2011-03-20 04:15:39 <gasteve> geez
307 2011-03-20 04:16:11 <gasteve> it's hard to imagine a botnet could even have that capacity
308 2011-03-20 04:16:17 <ArtForz> thats not that hard
309 2011-03-20 04:17:21 <ArtForz> well, it kinda is
310 2011-03-20 04:18:36 <gasteve> exactly
311 2011-03-20 04:18:54 <ArtForz> so 350k zombies... thats a decently sized botnet, but not really that crazy
312 2011-03-20 04:19:22 <gasteve> true...wiki pedia says the largest botnet has about 30 million machines
313 2011-03-20 04:19:30 <dissipate> ArtForz, if you run at low priority why not run at 100%?
314 2011-03-20 04:20:03 <ArtForz> dissipate: fan speed
315 2011-03-20 04:20:43 <gasteve> a lot of people wouldn't even notice the fan (on a laptop)...they might notice it, but not really think anything of it
316 2011-03-20 04:21:22 <dissipate> a laptop wouldn't be a good zombie. people shut down their laptops often.
317 2011-03-20 04:21:28 <gasteve> so, perhaps someone rented a botnet, and realized after a while that it wasn't profitable
318 2011-03-20 04:21:36 <dissipate> the best ones would be machines that were up close to 100% of the time
319 2011-03-20 04:22:08 <gasteve> (I have no idea what it would cost to rent a botnet...or whether they charge based on cpu usage)
320 2011-03-20 04:22:52 <genjix> gasteve: amazon provides one ^^
321 2011-03-20 04:23:11 <gasteve> "A fairly typical rate for DDoS botnet rental hovers around the $200 for 10,000 bot agents per day"
322 2011-03-20 04:23:14 <genjix> a botnet is just an illegal super-cheap cluster
323 2011-03-20 04:23:22 <dissipate> i heard that microsoft tried to shut down a huge bot net
324 2011-03-20 04:23:32 <ArtForz> ofc another option would be someone moonlighting on a cluster
325 2011-03-20 04:24:06 <dissipate> wouldn't it be better to just take over a university supercomputer?
326 2011-03-20 04:24:12 <gasteve> yeah, but that cluster would have to be pretty big (at 600-700 5970s)
327 2011-03-20 04:24:20 <ArtForz> erm, thats kinda what I mean
328 2011-03-20 04:24:55 <dissipate> just pay off the sysop
329 2011-03-20 04:25:33 <ArtForz> or about 40x that in CPUs
330 2011-03-20 04:25:46 <gasteve> the other possibility is that JPM is doing a little testing
331 2011-03-20 04:25:51 <dissipate> gasteve, i wonder how many GPUs they have at www.onlive.com i imagine a lot.
332 2011-03-20 04:26:48 <lfm> dissipate: why don't you find out for sure and get back to us.
333 2011-03-20 04:28:09 <dissipate> lfm, what if someone at that company mined on spare GPU cycles? :O
334 2011-03-20 04:28:30 <lfm> that would be nice!
335 2011-03-20 04:29:04 <dissipate> actually, it would suck for existing miners
336 2011-03-20 04:29:34 <jgarzik> sysop.  there's a word I have not heard in over 10 years.
337 2011-03-20 04:29:46 <Minert> xmodem :)
338 2011-03-20 04:29:51 <jgarzik> -crc
339 2011-03-20 04:29:56 <genjix> jgarzik: ?
340 2011-03-20 04:30:01 <genjix> i hear it all the time on forums and stuff...
341 2011-03-20 04:30:25 <jgarzik> op, yes.  sysop?  not so much, for me.
342 2011-03-20 04:31:56 <dissipate> jgarzik, so what do they call people who run super computers these days?
343 2011-03-20 04:32:20 <jgarzik> dissipate: Mr. Rich-In-Bitcoins
344 2011-03-20 04:32:23 <forrestv> hehe
345 2011-03-20 04:38:44 <noagendamarket> if you rent a botnet and need to cash out all the coins it would crush the market
346 2011-03-20 04:39:19 <noagendamarket> if the mm dumped all 50 000 coins it would maybe be less than he payed
347 2011-03-20 04:39:28 <forrestv> yeah ... so what can be done to mitigate this (and future similar issues)?
348 2011-03-20 04:39:50 <noagendamarket> if the market was a set rate it would actually be worse
349 2011-03-20 04:39:51 <forrestv> couldn't the owner's address be blacklisted in the client (at the cost of forking the blockchain ...)
350 2011-03-20 04:40:07 <forrestv> *?
351 2011-03-20 04:40:33 <forrestv> at the cost of forking whenever he tries to spend
352 2011-03-20 04:44:11 <genjix> i used to believe some things computers do today are technically infeasible in the past.
353 2011-03-20 04:46:45 <Kiba> genjix: hmm..seem to me that all the mining drive an increase in GPU farms all over the world, which could be used for other applications
354 2011-03-20 04:47:17 <noagendamarket> it seems the issue was solved of its own accord
355 2011-03-20 04:47:29 <noagendamarket> without having to do anything
356 2011-03-20 04:47:32 <noagendamarket> :)
357 2011-03-20 04:47:36 <Kiba> with the GPU farms
358 2011-03-20 04:47:44 <Kiba> people could buy spare GPU cycles
359 2011-03-20 04:47:46 <robotarmy> has anyone considered that is is kinda strange to tie a currency to using electricity?
360 2011-03-20 04:47:55 <Kiba> robotarmy: wrong, it's not tied to anything
361 2011-03-20 04:48:04 <Kiba> it's based on the fundamental of supply and demand
362 2011-03-20 04:48:04 <noagendamarket> its not tied to electricity
363 2011-03-20 04:48:17 <robotarmy> Kiba: people are building machine that 'mine'
364 2011-03-20 04:48:20 <noagendamarket> some people mine without any elecricity
365 2011-03-20 04:48:32 <robotarmy> ?
366 2011-03-20 04:48:50 <noagendamarket> or it doesnt cost them
367 2011-03-20 04:48:53 <Kiba> more like it doesn't cost them
368 2011-03-20 04:48:54 <chaord> robotarmy: theoretically, if everyone could trust one person with one machine to mine all the coins, it wouldn't use very much electricity at all ;)
369 2011-03-20 04:48:54 <noagendamarket> yes thats it
370 2011-03-20 04:49:01 <noagendamarket> lol
371 2011-03-20 04:49:27 <robotarmy> how about actually - are people using computing resources to generate this currency?
372 2011-03-20 04:49:31 <Kiba> chaord: well, we're all pushing toward more efficent mining anyway
373 2011-03-20 04:49:50 <robotarmy> doesn't anyone here think about where all the electricity that is used to power these computers comes from?
374 2011-03-20 04:50:08 <Kiba> nuclear, coal, wind mill, etc
375 2011-03-20 04:50:12 <robotarmy> and the fact that another small group of people are creating a currency that is otherwise inaccessible to the majority?
376 2011-03-20 04:50:21 <Kiba> but of course, bitcoin miners will all tend toward the cheapest source of electricity
377 2011-03-20 04:50:25 <Kiba> robotarmy: not
378 2011-03-20 04:50:27 <Kiba> robotarmy: no
379 2011-03-20 04:50:40 <robotarmy> Kiba:  no you don't think about it?
380 2011-03-20 04:50:55 <Kiba> well, I don't really care
381 2011-03-20 04:50:56 <Kiba> I don't mine
382 2011-03-20 04:51:01 <robotarmy> or no it isn't accessable?
383 2011-03-20 04:51:09 <Kiba> it's accessible
384 2011-03-20 04:51:41 <chaord> robotarmy: it's hard for normal folks to obtain bitcions right now due to the technical nature of it, but in time, bitcoin will be the most open and easy to enter/exit currency in the world
385 2011-03-20 04:52:01 <robotarmy> I'm just saying - this reminds me of when a small group of people got together and created a thing called banks
386 2011-03-20 04:52:40 <ArtForz> wtf?
387 2011-03-20 04:52:48 <chaord> yes...except this small group of people isn't meeting on an island and deciding how to best use the government's guns to enforce their ideas ;)
388 2011-03-20 04:52:48 <robotarmy> and the fact that in order to create this currency electricity is used - in a world that is starting to buckle from evironmental pressures - seems noble, but short sighted
389 2011-03-20 04:53:35 <ArtForz> "omg, people are using electricty to do useful work. the sky is falling"
390 2011-03-20 04:53:36 <chaord> robotarmy: it's only short sided if you think that human nature (eg people acting in their own self interest) will change anytime soon
391 2011-03-20 04:54:00 <chaord> ArtForz: lol
392 2011-03-20 04:54:05 <robotarmy> ArtForz: useful for you
393 2011-03-20 04:54:07 <robotarmy> ?
394 2011-03-20 04:54:08 <Kiba> bitcoin mining will tend toward energy efficency anyway
395 2011-03-20 04:54:22 <Kiba> robotarmy: it's useful for the bitcoin economy because nobody else will perform this work
396 2011-03-20 04:54:23 <robotarmy> Kiba: that sounds a lot like wishful thinking
397 2011-03-20 04:54:30 <Kiba> robotarmy: that's inevitable
398 2011-03-20 04:54:48 <Kiba> for bitcoin mining to be profitable, they must be efficent
399 2011-03-20 04:55:07 <Kiba> aka energy is either cheap or conserved
400 2011-03-20 04:55:15 <robotarmy> and where does this energy come frome
401 2011-03-20 04:55:22 <Kiba> does it matter?
402 2011-03-20 04:55:23 <robotarmy> and who is going to be able to generate this currency
403 2011-03-20 04:55:28 <robotarmy> it isn't some dude in nairobi
404 2011-03-20 04:55:32 <Kiba> so?
405 2011-03-20 04:55:43 <Kiba> they're performing useful work
406 2011-03-20 04:55:47 <ArtForz> meanwhile, seti@home is wasting 10x the electricity looking for little green men...
407 2011-03-20 04:55:59 <robotarmy> ArtForz: No one is saying that is helpful
408 2011-03-20 04:56:25 <dissipate> ArtForz, according to the guys i talked to in ##ufo, those little green men have been visiting for a long time
409 2011-03-20 04:56:25 <Kiba> why do you care who get to generate the currency?
410 2011-03-20 04:56:32 <Kiba> they're performing economicall valuable work
411 2011-03-20 04:56:38 <robotarmy> I've encountered this attitude in my fellow programmers - where we seem to totally forget that electricity for our machines is built on oil.
412 2011-03-20 04:56:47 <Kiba> robotarmy: so?
413 2011-03-20 04:56:51 <robotarmy> and now we are building a currency base on computation
414 2011-03-20 04:56:56 <Kiba> so?
415 2011-03-20 04:56:58 <ArtForz> ... so?
416 2011-03-20 04:57:00 <forrestv> robotarmy, and who deserves it? isn't it most logical to give it to the people creating the infrastructure for bitcoin?
417 2011-03-20 04:57:25 <robotarmy> forrestv:  that sounds like european privaledge speaking
418 2011-03-20 04:57:26 <dissipate> robotarmy, the real problem is governments and their meddling. bitcoin is the solution.
419 2011-03-20 04:57:41 <Kiba> robotarmy: so?
420 2011-03-20 04:57:43 <robotarmy> man - this is like 1850 all over again
421 2011-03-20 04:57:48 <Kiba> rich europeans performing useful work
422 2011-03-20 04:57:51 <Kiba> who fucking care?
423 2011-03-20 04:58:22 <forrestv> robotarmy, i'm not even sure what you meant by that..
424 2011-03-20 04:58:44 <Kiba> so rich people making bitcoin work
425 2011-03-20 04:58:47 <Kiba> why is that evil?
426 2011-03-20 04:58:53 <robotarmy> forrestv: what do you think the people who started the industrial revolution said?
427 2011-03-20 04:59:00 <devrandom> I think he's saying bitcoin is a bourgeois conspiracy
428 2011-03-20 04:59:06 <Kiba> devrandom: yeah, so?
429 2011-03-20 04:59:08 <Kiba> what if it is?
430 2011-03-20 04:59:16 <forrestv> ah, that's what i kinda assumed :/
431 2011-03-20 04:59:24 <devrandom> I'm just translating :)
432 2011-03-20 04:59:27 <dissipate> devrandom, i can see how a statist would think that.
433 2011-03-20 04:59:41 <ArtForz> cool, I wasnt part of a decent conspiracy before!
434 2011-03-20 04:59:42 <chaord> the coolest thing about bitcoin is that no one is being forced to participate
435 2011-03-20 04:59:44 <robotarmy> i'm not saying anything about a conspiracy
436 2011-03-20 04:59:56 <Kiba> robotarmy: why should we care?
437 2011-03-20 04:59:58 <dissipate> devrandom, he's probably a socialist statist who can't stand the thought of people dodging the state and taxes
438 2011-03-20 05:00:21 <Kiba> so rich dudes use bitcoin
439 2011-03-20 05:00:33 <Kiba> wow
440 2011-03-20 05:00:36 <Kiba> that's so revelationary
441 2011-03-20 05:00:39 <robotarmy> Every time you search on google you are boiling water for 6 cups of tea.
442 2011-03-20 05:00:42 <dissipate> devrandom, btw, where is devurandom? seen him around? :)
443 2011-03-20 05:00:45 <Kiba> guess what who get the newfanged technologies? probably the western world and maybe some Asian countries
444 2011-03-20 05:01:00 <Kiba> so what?
445 2011-03-20 05:01:04 <robotarmy> And now we have another group of people running cpu cycle and consuming power to generate a currency
446 2011-03-20 05:01:09 <ArtForz> so... conserve energy, save the enviroment and go live in a cave.
447 2011-03-20 05:01:13 <robotarmy> how is that equal?
448 2011-03-20 05:01:36 <Kiba> robotarmy: what's the issue here?
449 2011-03-20 05:01:41 <Kiba> robotarmy: why do you assume we care about equality?
450 2011-03-20 05:01:43 <dissipate> robotarmy, the miners own their computers and they pay their own electric bills. get over it.
451 2011-03-20 05:01:46 <Kiba> juding that you're on IRC
452 2011-03-20 05:01:49 <devrandom> dissipate - his public keys were compromised since he didn't have a good source for randomness, so he's computer is offline for now ;)
453 2011-03-20 05:01:53 <Kiba> you're just another rich faggot who crys about inequality
454 2011-03-20 05:02:03 <devrandom> s/he's/his/
455 2011-03-20 05:02:12 <Kiba> go live in a third world country if you feel so guilty about it
456 2011-03-20 05:02:16 <robotarmy> Kiba: why go through all the trouble to disrupt banks, and government if your just going to create another divisive system to replace a divisive system
457 2011-03-20 05:02:27 <Kiba> robotarmy: why do you assume we think the same thing as you?
458 2011-03-20 05:02:32 <dissipate> devrandom, well it's interesting that you are here since it takes you so long to gather up enough entropy to generate the 'random' bits to generate those keys!
459 2011-03-20 05:02:39 <Kiba> you think it's divisive
460 2011-03-20 05:02:41 <Kiba> we don't
461 2011-03-20 05:02:43 <robotarmy> Kiba : i don't assume that - why do you assume i feel guilty
462 2011-03-20 05:03:01 <devrandom> there's enough radiation these days to generate pretty good entropy
463 2011-03-20 05:03:09 <robotarmy> So this currency reaches its' maxium capactiy - who has it?
464 2011-03-20 05:03:14 <dissipate> robotarmy, we don't like banks, so we are trying to build a system so people don't need banks
465 2011-03-20 05:03:26 <Kiba> dissipate: bad banks
466 2011-03-20 05:03:35 <Kiba> good banks are ok
467 2011-03-20 05:03:39 <dissipate> robotarmy, apparently not you
468 2011-03-20 05:03:50 <Kiba> robotarmy: so, what's the problem here?
469 2011-03-20 05:03:55 <dissipate> Kiba, no such thing in book :P
470 2011-03-20 05:04:03 <Kiba> dissipate: mybitcoin
471 2011-03-20 05:04:36 <dissipate> Kiba, that one runs the risk of gov shutdown and operator dishonesty, unfortunately
472 2011-03-20 05:04:52 <dissipate> Kiba, but in any event, i'm referring to state sanctioned banks
473 2011-03-20 05:05:29 <robotarmy> After this currency is generated - will there be any other need to excercize cpu?
474 2011-03-20 05:05:37 <robotarmy> or is it for a fixed amout of time?
475 2011-03-20 05:05:42 <Kiba> robotarmy: yes, to process transaction
476 2011-03-20 05:05:51 <forrestv> robotarmy, blocks need to be continued to be generated
477 2011-03-20 05:05:54 <Kiba> the main incentive after currency generation is transaction fees
478 2011-03-20 05:06:22 <robotarmy> will mining become technically impossible after a certain date?
479 2011-03-20 05:06:28 <forrestv> no
480 2011-03-20 05:06:36 <ArtForz> read the fine paper
481 2011-03-20 05:06:36 <devrandom> robotarmy - it's necessary to use a limited resource to prevent hijack of the system.  you just need to use more than an adversary could muster
482 2011-03-20 05:06:37 <forrestv> you just won't get any coins
483 2011-03-20 05:07:15 <dissipate> forrestv, you can get coins, just no new ones will be generated
484 2011-03-20 05:07:28 <forrestv> well, i meant from mining
485 2011-03-20 05:07:40 <ArtForz> mining is what powers the distributed timestamping system, for now issuing of coins to miners is the main incentive to do that, leater on it will be transaction fees
486 2011-03-20 05:08:00 <devrandom> btw, have there been any estimates on the compute resources needed in the long term?
487 2011-03-20 05:08:04 <ArtForz> yes
488 2011-03-20 05:08:22 <dissipate> ArtForz, what if miners get filthy rich from the transaction fees and hoard all the bitcoins? ZOMG!!
489 2011-03-20 05:08:26 <forrestv> are transaction fees generated, or are they subtracted from the transaction?
490 2011-03-20 05:08:33 <devrandom> was it in the paper?  I ready it about a month ago, I don't remember an estimate
491 2011-03-20 05:08:39 <ArtForz> "less than the value of minted coins + transaction fees"
492 2011-03-20 05:09:19 <ArtForz> unless people start mining at a loss to protect their held bitcoins
493 2011-03-20 05:09:27 <devrandom> transaction fees are a free variable
494 2011-03-20 05:09:35 <devrandom> so what would tend to?
495 2011-03-20 05:09:41 <devrandom> what would they tend to?
496 2011-03-20 05:09:42 <robotarmy> I'm all for creating a new currency - but not if it means creating a currency that takes an already fracked up ecosystem and makes it worse.
497 2011-03-20 05:09:59 <Kiba> making it worse? blame coal plants
498 2011-03-20 05:10:12 <dissipate> robotarmy, so far you haven't mentioned a single thing about bitcoin that would make anything worse
499 2011-03-20 05:10:28 <Kiba> dissipate: and we pay for electricity too
500 2011-03-20 05:10:37 <Kiba> but we don't get to control what kind of power plants people run
501 2011-03-20 05:11:00 <ArtForz> not to mention the whole thing currently "wastes" about 211kW
502 2011-03-20 05:11:31 <ArtForz> thats pretty much nothing overall
503 2011-03-20 05:11:44 <devrandom> $20 / hour
504 2011-03-20 05:11:44 <robotarmy> you 'pay' for electricity - but do you actually pay in proportion to the harm that is caused to the eco-system - I can answer that - no - because elecricity companies don't care about that - they care about profit
505 2011-03-20 05:12:02 <dissipate> robotarmy, not our problem. write your congreaseman
506 2011-03-20 05:12:04 <ArtForz> robotarmy: boo. fucking. hoo.
507 2011-03-20 05:12:06 <gasteve> the energy used to propagate the block chain and ensure a sound money is well worth it IMO
508 2011-03-20 05:12:10 <Kiba> go nuclear
509 2011-03-20 05:12:11 <Kiba> there
510 2011-03-20 05:12:14 <Kiba> all your problem is solved
511 2011-03-20 05:12:17 <Kiba> less radiation
512 2011-03-20 05:12:21 <Kiba> unbelivably safe
513 2011-03-20 05:12:24 <forrestv> fukushima!!
514 2011-03-20 05:12:27 <ArtForz> hehehe
515 2011-03-20 05:12:29 <robotarmy> Kiba: Are you ignorant or are you joking?
516 2011-03-20 05:12:43 <ArtForz> what? nuclear is perfectly safe!
517 2011-03-20 05:12:58 <gasteve> there are far more pointless and wasteful uses of energy (like this debate for instance...lol)
518 2011-03-20 05:12:58 <Kiba> robotarmy: statistically, nuclear power plants are safer and emitt less radiation than coal plants
519 2011-03-20 05:13:14 <ArtForz> and if they don't, you get wildlife reserves ;)
520 2011-03-20 05:13:16 <dissipate> robotarmy, do you even understand that one purpose of bitcoin is to undermine the government institutions that allow companies to pollute?
521 2011-03-20 05:13:16 <robotarmy> Kiba: and what do they do with the byproduct of the nuclear plant?
522 2011-03-20 05:13:35 <Kiba> the government also happens to be the biggest pollutor
523 2011-03-20 05:13:41 <devrandom> the worst energy related disaster was a cascading dam failure in china in the 60s
524 2011-03-20 05:13:48 <devrandom> tens of thousands dead
525 2011-03-20 05:13:56 <ArtForz> ban hydro!
526 2011-03-20 05:14:11 <Kiba> I don't believe that fukushima kill that many yet
527 2011-03-20 05:14:30 <ArtForz> I think it's still well below 10...
528 2011-03-20 05:14:41 <robotarmy> I have this picture in my head of a bunch of teenage and twenty somethings who hang out in the basement and in north america and other eurocentric communities and really have no idea of what is going on in the world.
529 2011-03-20 05:14:49 <robotarmy> someone please correct me.
530 2011-03-20 05:15:00 <gasteve> ban hydro...yes...and if you really analyze the situation, the root cause was gravity...so we better ban that too...or maybe just tax it to fund the new anti-gravity economy
531 2011-03-20 05:15:00 <Kiba> robotarmy: maybe you are one too
532 2011-03-20 05:15:03 <Kiba> after all you're on IRC
533 2011-03-20 05:15:05 <forrestv> i'm not in a basement.
534 2011-03-20 05:15:22 <Kiba> robotarmy: come on, use you reasoning
535 2011-03-20 05:15:33 <ArtForz> I'm a 30-something, on 2nd floor :P
536 2011-03-20 05:16:04 <gasteve> 30-something (barely) ...here...2nd floor also
537 2011-03-20 05:16:10 <ArtForz> and my miners are oil-powered
538 2011-03-20 05:16:16 <robotarmy> Kiba ; i never said i was any different - i'm just coming in here to say -- great   - so you are making a new currency - well this is the era that we don't keep fucking up our planet - so who is willing  to account for that in this project ??
539 2011-03-20 05:16:18 <ArtForz> well, at least in winter ;)
540 2011-03-20 05:16:43 <Kiba> robotarmy: not our problem
541 2011-03-20 05:16:56 <ArtForz> in summer it's "whatever the power co can get cheapest"... so mainly nuclear
542 2011-03-20 05:16:57 <devrandom> 1975 actually... https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Banqiao_Dam
543 2011-03-20 05:16:58 <gasteve> robotarmy: relax...the planet will be here long after we're gone
544 2011-03-20 05:17:25 <Kiba> when we're gone, evolution will continue and life will continue as usual
545 2011-03-20 05:17:28 <ArtForz> yup
546 2011-03-20 05:18:03 <robotarmy> ?
547 2011-03-20 05:18:17 <robotarmy> Is your thinking really so self-destructive?
548 2011-03-20 05:18:38 <ArtForz> no, thats a standard response to "we're destroying the planet"
549 2011-03-20 05:19:20 <Kiba> if you want to solve problems
550 2011-03-20 05:19:21 <Kiba> go nuclear
551 2011-03-20 05:19:27 <Kiba> and make third world countries rich
552 2011-03-20 05:19:32 <Kiba> so we don't have to worry about global warming
553 2011-03-20 05:19:47 <Kiba> we can cope with anything if we're rich enough
554 2011-03-20 05:20:37 <Kiba> not enough water? no problem. We have the money to build water pipeline
555 2011-03-20 05:20:47 <Kiba> enough money to harvest fresh water from the ocean
556 2011-03-20 05:20:49 <Kiba> etc
557 2011-03-20 05:21:40 <robotarmy> so amazingly naive - it's not your fault that you were brought up in a society that conditioned you to believe that money is a solution to problems.
558 2011-03-20 05:21:55 <ArtForz> yada yada, weak troll is weak
559 2011-03-20 05:22:22 <Kiba> why is it so naive?
560 2011-03-20 05:22:35 <Kiba> why would harvesting fresh water from the ocean wouldn't work?
561 2011-03-20 05:22:38 <gasteve> unlocking the wealth of the people is key...and as for energy...it's essentially unlimited
562 2011-03-20 05:22:43 <Kiba> you have a nuclear plant that provide all the power you need
563 2011-03-20 05:22:58 <Kiba> gasteve: energy is the matter of gathering the sun or going nuclear
564 2011-03-20 05:23:08 <gasteve> exactly
565 2011-03-20 05:23:08 <genjix> robotarmy: hey interesting things you've been saying. i do agree with you, but try to think of this as a technology to help free software
566 2011-03-20 05:23:28 <genjix> robotarmy: think of it as one step towards not being reliant on central banking
567 2011-03-20 05:23:48 <genjix> robotarmy: then whether you like money or not :) you are now free to decide on your own society
568 2011-03-20 05:23:51 <genjix> baby steps
569 2011-03-20 05:23:59 <Kiba> robotarmy: maybe western society teach you to be doom and gloom about everything
570 2011-03-20 05:24:08 <robotarmy> genjix: i'm all for FOSS - and i'm for moving away from banks - but I think that the project needs to be awake to the environment.
571 2011-03-20 05:24:15 <gasteve> central banking is a mechanism used to enslave people...you can't really have freedom and prosperity until you free the money
572 2011-03-20 05:24:33 <robotarmy> freedom and prosperity are about more than money
573 2011-03-20 05:24:41 <genjix> robotarmy: people need to be awake to the environment, true. but i cannot force people
574 2011-03-20 05:24:48 <robotarmy> genjix: werd
575 2011-03-20 05:24:49 <gasteve> (and I think people will be shocked at just how much prosperity will be unleashed when our money is freed)
576 2011-03-20 05:24:56 <genjix> only do my part to help :)
577 2011-03-20 05:25:11 <chaord> robotarmy: if every single person trusted every single other person, we would have no need for money, since everyone's word would be "as good as gold"....however since it's obviously not possible for 100% world-wide trust, money is a nice tool to have to offset that risk
578 2011-03-20 05:25:12 <ArtForz> robotarmy: find a way to do distributed timestamping without relying on a computational proof-of-work function, write a paper, create btc2
579 2011-03-20 05:25:16 <genjix> robotarmy: yep but bitcoin isn't *just* money. there's so much more to it.
580 2011-03-20 05:25:32 <Kiba> chaord: you still need standard unit of accounting and stuff
581 2011-03-20 05:25:50 <Kiba> even if you trust each other, you can still be wrong/slightly off/etc
582 2011-03-20 05:25:52 <genjix> oh is robotarmy saying that the proof of work is environmentally unfriendly?
583 2011-03-20 05:25:54 <chaord> Kiba: yep, accounting is all we'd need if everyone trusted each other ;)
584 2011-03-20 05:25:59 <ArtForz> genjix: I guess so
585 2011-03-20 05:26:03 <genjix> hardly.
586 2011-03-20 05:26:28 <Kiba> the proof of work migrates toward efficent utilization of electricity
587 2011-03-20 05:26:31 <gasteve> chaord: what do you think bitcoin is?  you could think of it like accounting
588 2011-03-20 05:26:39 <Kiba> or parasital utialization of electricity
589 2011-03-20 05:26:40 <genjix> much more friendly that having 15 employees drive to a bank everyday :p
590 2011-03-20 05:26:57 <robotarmy> Has anyone considered that there are permaculture groups and human organizations thare are building alternative currancies based on food and fair share - and i want to ask you - in your noble pursuit to decentralize currency - how is fair share a part of this, how is caring for people a part of this, and how is caring for the earth a part of this - because if it isn't part of this mind that creates this new wor
591 2011-03-20 05:27:12 <Kiba> robotarmy: what's fairness?
592 2011-03-20 05:27:13 <ArtForz> it isnt
593 2011-03-20 05:27:19 <chaord> gasteve: yep, it is pretty similar in that it keeps a transaction log...i'm mostly just playing devils advocate though with robotarmy....i obviously think we need both money and accounting ;)
594 2011-03-20 05:27:25 <gasteve> hehe...I'm also stunned by how many bank branches there are...I haven't set foot in a bank in years...so wasteful
595 2011-03-20 05:27:33 <ArtForz> communism on a large scale doesn't work
596 2011-03-20 05:27:57 <gasteve> robotarmy: you're hopeless
597 2011-03-20 05:28:03 <gasteve> like a child really
598 2011-03-20 05:28:03 <genjix> robotarmy: even anarchist squatters are big on bitcoin
599 2011-03-20 05:28:21 <Kiba> gasteve: I don't know. Even adults can be childish
600 2011-03-20 05:28:56 <gasteve> kiba: true...I was speaking only of robotarmy
601 2011-03-20 05:29:00 <Kiba> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4379.msg68328#msg68328
602 2011-03-20 05:29:02 <Kiba> like this
603 2011-03-20 05:29:12 <genjix> robotarmy: the internet is the best weapon against the government. by having a currency like bitcoin, it's the first step towards non-participation in their destructive world.
604 2011-03-20 05:29:35 <Kiba> FatherMcGruder compared me to a Gadhafi supporter after I crush his arguments
605 2011-03-20 05:30:11 <genjix> robotarmy: it's the corporations & banks & consumerism that are destructive, not small businesses and trade.
606 2011-03-20 05:30:19 <Kiba> small business and big business
607 2011-03-20 05:30:21 <Kiba> who care?
608 2011-03-20 05:30:23 <Kiba> they're just size
609 2011-03-20 05:30:29 <Kiba> what's matter is the actions they take
610 2011-03-20 05:30:47 <ArtForz> well, usually "big business" nowadays == facism
611 2011-03-20 05:31:21 <genjix> dumbass economics that says spending your money on worthless crap is the way to live
612 2011-03-20 05:31:26 <ArtForz> why compete in a free market when you can buy a law or two?
613 2011-03-20 05:31:28 <Kiba> ArtForz: it's because they're all pussies before governments
614 2011-03-20 05:31:39 <gasteve> large corporations and governments collude to enslave and oppress people
615 2011-03-20 05:31:57 <Kiba> gasteve: it's more like perverse incentive
616 2011-03-20 05:31:59 <Kiba> if you don't lobby
617 2011-03-20 05:32:01 <Kiba> some asshole will
618 2011-03-20 05:32:09 <Kiba> and then YOU'RE DEAD
619 2011-03-20 05:32:13 <Kiba> it's the survival of the worst
620 2011-03-20 05:32:28 <gasteve> yeah....to an extend even the corporations and governments are a trapped in the system
621 2011-03-20 05:32:33 <gasteve> *extent
622 2011-03-20 05:32:35 <jgarzik> darn those groups of men.
623 2011-03-20 05:32:36 <jgarzik> how dare they assemble, and form a bureaucracy.
624 2011-03-20 05:32:45 <Kiba> governments listen to voters
625 2011-03-20 05:32:56 <gasteve> bah
626 2011-03-20 05:33:07 <Kiba> governments do what voters like
627 2011-03-20 05:33:13 <gasteve> governments use and tolerate voters
628 2011-03-20 05:33:24 <robotarmy> I am hear to say that if we want to design a better currency and a better frontier - we are not going to create a sustainable culture unless we hold high ethical underpinnings that promote people care, fair share and earth care. - if we do not do this - then who is the world we are creating for? simply our limited self?
629 2011-03-20 05:33:28 <Kiba> so bad things happen, because voters are complete idiot
630 2011-03-20 05:33:43 <Kiba> because there's no incentive to not be a complete idiot
631 2011-03-20 05:33:48 <jgarzik> all voting is faith-based.  it is impossible to be 100% informed.
632 2011-03-20 05:33:52 <gasteve> robotarmy: I nominate you to decide what is fair
633 2011-03-20 05:33:58 <ArtForz> robotarmy: communism doesn't work, go hug a tree.
634 2011-03-20 05:34:06 <robotarmy> gasteve: iam not here to decide what is fair
635 2011-03-20 05:34:07 <genjix> robotarmy: but who chooses these values? even if i agree on them then we cannot guarantee they won't later change.
636 2011-03-20 05:34:19 <gasteve> robotarmy: you just said so
637 2011-03-20 05:34:20 <genjix> just like science
638 2011-03-20 05:34:26 <Kiba> robotarmy: what's ethical to you is not what ethical to us
639 2011-03-20 05:34:32 <Kiba> we're a bunch of greedy miners and businessmen
640 2011-03-20 05:34:34 <Kiba> we like money
641 2011-03-20 05:34:37 <robotarmy> Kiba: you are thinking of  morality
642 2011-03-20 05:34:43 <jgarzik> orality
643 2011-03-20 05:34:46 <Kiba> robotarmy: yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever
644 2011-03-20 05:34:46 <robotarmy> Ethics are about caring for our species
645 2011-03-20 05:34:51 <robotarmy> for our habitat
646 2011-03-20 05:34:56 <Kiba> robotarmy: that's a bunch of bollocks
647 2011-03-20 05:35:01 <robotarmy> and for the future of our children
648 2011-03-20 05:35:02 <Kiba> they concerns about what's right and wrong
649 2011-03-20 05:35:08 <genjix> robotarmy: and we can.
650 2011-03-20 05:35:12 <ArtForz> omg, think of the children!!!
651 2011-03-20 05:35:12 <robotarmy> Kiba : no that is morality
652 2011-03-20 05:35:26 <ArtForz> jgarzik: same here
653 2011-03-20 05:35:31 <Kiba> let be capitalistic pig!
654 2011-03-20 05:36:40 <robotarmy> If you want to create a better world then it will take the participants to be awake to asking the questions about what is fair and how to be fair to all people, how to care for each other human in that process and, how to care for our planet as the place that gives us life.
655 2011-03-20 05:36:55 <Kiba> robotarmy: who are you to dictate what's a better world?
656 2011-03-20 05:36:57 <robotarmy> It's not simply - get rid of the government or banks
657 2011-03-20 05:36:58 <genjix> i gave up caring either way a long time ago... i just want to live in a techno science oriented society that lets me be free to act and travel.
658 2011-03-20 05:36:59 <Kiba> what's fairness?
659 2011-03-20 05:37:03 <jgarzik> genjix: it would be interesting to convert Ghash/sec to teraFLOPS
660 2011-03-20 05:37:07 <jgarzik> (teraIOPS?)
661 2011-03-20 05:37:13 <robotarmy> Kiba : I am glad that you are asking what is fairness - don't stop
662 2011-03-20 05:37:15 <ArtForz> jgarzik: pretty easy
663 2011-03-20 05:37:24 <Kiba> robotarmy: the thing is, I don't give a damn about fairness
664 2011-03-20 05:37:31 <Kiba> who get what? irrevalnt
665 2011-03-20 05:37:48 <genjix> robotarmy: i dont understand. are you saying that get rid ov government/banks isn't a good first step?
666 2011-03-20 05:37:54 <Kiba> there's only have-now and have-laters..and the rest are dead
667 2011-03-20 05:37:55 <genjix> or that world revolution has to happen overnight?
668 2011-03-20 05:38:06 <ArtForz> one Gh/s = about 4.2T INTOP/s on ati 5xxx, about 6.5T INTOP/s on x86
669 2011-03-20 05:38:25 <ArtForz> on all recent archs, one INTOP = 2 FLOPs
670 2011-03-20 05:38:52 <ArtForz> because everyone and his dog now counts one muladd as 2 FLOPs
671 2011-03-20 05:39:29 <ArtForz> so one Gh/s = about 13 TFLOPS
672 2011-03-20 05:40:05 <gasteve> a poor, destitute people won't give a damn about first world concerns like the environment...a free and wealthy people will naturally choose the better technology, including that which makes our air, water and food cleaner and better
673 2011-03-20 05:40:18 <jgarzik> whee...  5837 TFLOPS
674 2011-03-20 05:40:24 <jgarzik> genjix: ^^
675 2011-03-20 05:40:53 <gasteve> (Nissan Leafs aren't cheap after all)
676 2011-03-20 05:40:54 <ArtForz> yup, around there
677 2011-03-20 05:41:00 <jgarzik> 5.8 petaFLOPS
678 2011-03-20 05:41:15 <robotarmy> I am saying - that if a person walks into an empty lot to build a better building - but builds it without a design in mind - simply what they do not want to include - they are not going to create a new great building - but if a group of people say - we are going to leave out the banks and the governments and build a greater better currency and we are going to care about people in the process and we are going to
679 2011-03-20 05:41:26 <ArtForz> already a bit faster than tianhe-1a ;)
680 2011-03-20 05:41:30 <robotarmy> not simply - get rid of the government - not simply a reductionist movement .
681 2011-03-20 05:41:50 <robotarmy> we have re-creation and a newer - more permanent culture
682 2011-03-20 05:41:51 <jgarzik> "IBM's Mira supercomputer does ten petaflops with ease"
683 2011-03-20 05:42:10 <Kiba> yeah yeah yeah, whatever
684 2011-03-20 05:42:14 <ArtForz> F@H ... about 10 PFLOPs
685 2011-03-20 05:42:14 <genjix> ok thanks
686 2011-03-20 05:42:27 <Kiba> how much does the bitcoin network generate?
687 2011-03-20 05:42:37 <gasteve> robotarmy: you still sound like a fascist to me
688 2011-03-20 05:43:02 <robotarmy> I am saying that it is great to be secure and open and move away from the banks and the governments but if we do not do this with both our heart and our mind we are going to end up creating simply the other side of the coin and not mint something fresh and new.
689 2011-03-20 05:43:06 <gasteve> so much of what you say depends on someone (maybe not you) dictating what is good and what is fair
690 2011-03-20 05:43:16 <ArtForz> or like a "I know what is best for everyone" wannabe communist leader
691 2011-03-20 05:43:28 <robotarmy> gasteve: that is because you have never learned to think outside of black and white.
692 2011-03-20 05:43:34 <gasteve> hah
693 2011-03-20 05:43:37 <Kiba> wtf?
694 2011-03-20 05:43:40 <genjix> so what is the mining power of btc?
695 2011-03-20 05:43:43 <Kiba> it's called having perspective
696 2011-03-20 05:43:53 <genjix> 5837 petaflops?
697 2011-03-20 05:43:53 <robotarmy> gasteve: I am telling you over and over again that this has nothing to do with me staying what is fair
698 2011-03-20 05:43:58 <jgarzik> Plato's philosopher-king: the rule of the wise, benevolent dictator.
699 2011-03-20 05:44:00 <ArtForz> genjix: somewhere around there, yea
700 2011-03-20 05:44:03 <jgarzik> genjix: 5.8 petaflops
701 2011-03-20 05:44:05 <genjix> wow F@H does only 10?
702 2011-03-20 05:44:07 <gasteve> robotarmy: maybe not you...but someone
703 2011-03-20 05:44:07 <genjix> amazing
704 2011-03-20 05:44:13 <robotarmy> it has to do with building - this community project and including in it
705 2011-03-20 05:44:39 <JFK911> apparently im having bad luck with diablo miner on wind0ze
706 2011-03-20 05:44:41 <jgarzik> ArtForz: I thought it was 5837 teraflops / 5.8 petaflops?
707 2011-03-20 05:44:43 <Kiba> robotarmy: we can create communities on our own just fine and we have no problem with incorporating capitalistic urges with altrustic urges
708 2011-03-20 05:44:46 <genjix> robotarmy: the source code is available. modify it however you want? :)
709 2011-03-20 05:44:56 <ArtForz> jgarzik: huh?
710 2011-03-20 05:45:01 <Kiba> hmm
711 2011-03-20 05:45:01 <robotarmy> No it is you and kiba and ArtForz and genjix that if you hold in your mind and heart the question of fair share and people care and earth care and this project builds on that concisousness then it will become something new
712 2011-03-20 05:45:14 <Kiba> wtf is fair share and why should I care?
713 2011-03-20 05:45:23 <robotarmy> Kiba:  that is your coping mechanism
714 2011-03-20 05:45:25 <ArtForz> hey, that rhymes...
715 2011-03-20 05:45:25 <Kiba> all this is gibberish nonsense unless you explain to us
716 2011-03-20 05:45:42 <ArtForz> jgarzik: yes
717 2011-03-20 05:45:48 <robotarmy> You are so afraid of the real world that your way of strategy is not to care so you don't have to admit your pain
718 2011-03-20 05:45:56 <Kiba> rofl
719 2011-03-20 05:46:00 <Kiba> freud is right
720 2011-03-20 05:46:01 <gasteve> robotarmy: describe a system that actually has a chance of working and people might listen
721 2011-03-20 05:46:01 <genjix> wtf shut up.
722 2011-03-20 05:46:04 <ArtForz> hahaha
723 2011-03-20 05:46:20 <genjix> derp herp
724 2011-03-20 05:46:28 <Kiba> I guess
725 2011-03-20 05:46:31 <Kiba> Freud was right
726 2011-03-20 05:46:36 <genjix> i spent 5 years living all over the world in 3rd world countries
727 2011-03-20 05:46:40 <Kiba> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FreudWasRight
728 2011-03-20 05:46:40 <Validus> that was one of the funniest troll comments i have seen anywhere
729 2011-03-20 05:46:46 <genjix> sometimes out of a backpack
730 2011-03-20 05:47:13 <robotarmy> gasteve: I am telling you - that if you ask in you life  and in your participation - is this fair share, is this earth care and is this people care - then the system will become -but if you simply do reductivist thinking - remove the bank - remove governement - give me money - this wont be enough.
731 2011-03-20 05:47:17 <genjix> on communes, with anarchists, with rich people, with travellers, coders, .etc
732 2011-03-20 05:47:20 <genjix> been with all sorts
733 2011-03-20 05:47:41 <robotarmy> genjix:  and that is why you understand closer than kiba what i am saying
734 2011-03-20 05:47:42 <genjix> pfft
735 2011-03-20 05:47:56 <genjix> yeah but "afraid of the real world"
736 2011-03-20 05:48:13 <gasteve> robotarmy: bitcoin is a about a new, democratic monetary system, nothing more, nothing less
737 2011-03-20 05:48:17 <Validus> hes promoting communism. you get paid a set amount for whatever
738 2011-03-20 05:48:23 <genjix> you need to destroy to recreate
739 2011-03-20 05:48:26 <Validus> if your a dr, a trash man, doesnt matter
740 2011-03-20 05:48:30 <robotarmy> genjix: nihlist
741 2011-03-20 05:48:33 <genjix> smash the state, rebuild it.
742 2011-03-20 05:48:39 <gasteve> you seem to want to make it into something else altogether
743 2011-03-20 05:48:41 <robotarmy> Foolish
744 2011-03-20 05:48:45 <robotarmy> waste
745 2011-03-20 05:48:48 <Validus> communism looks great on paper. just doesnt work
746 2011-03-20 05:48:52 <genjix> gentle reform?
747 2011-03-20 05:48:56 <robotarmy> I am saying that the future is not real
748 2011-03-20 05:48:57 <Kiba> Validus: no, it was just bad theory
749 2011-03-20 05:49:06 <Kiba> if it doesn't work in practice, it sucks on paper
750 2011-03-20 05:49:20 <Validus> fair share everything? sounds just like it lol
751 2011-03-20 05:49:26 <gasteve> in theory, theory and practice are equivalent
752 2011-03-20 05:49:33 <Validus> why if i worked my ass off and got nice things i should care what a lazy ass person that sits on their ass has
753 2011-03-20 05:49:38 <Validus> that is fair share
754 2011-03-20 05:49:51 <genjix> in theory, theory and practice are equivalent in theory
755 2011-03-20 05:50:17 <genjix> Validus: that's a bit simplistic.
756 2011-03-20 05:50:38 <robotarmy> the only reality is our present - and our present is conditioned by our past - and our past has communtist fascist, capitalist and everything and that is our thinking and our mind - and it is only the questions that we make real in our life that change the present and create the future and those questions are fair share, people care and earth care and they need to be part of the design for this revolution again
757 2011-03-20 05:50:41 <Validus> its simple way to put it, espically dealing with this guys fair share
758 2011-03-20 05:51:09 <genjix> some social net is nice to have. anybody can have downswings in life :)
759 2011-03-20 05:51:49 <Validus> not saying tough shit if their on a downswing. but you have the choice to do things,
760 2011-03-20 05:51:53 <genjix> robotarmy: so what do you propose for bitcoin 2? or are you saying any kind of distributed currency is bad?
761 2011-03-20 05:52:22 <genjix> anyway this is getting a little boring, can't say i didn't try.
762 2011-03-20 05:52:34 <Kiba> I wonder how robotarmy can create all these long paragraph so fast
763 2011-03-20 05:52:46 <Validus> i type fast, but not that fast
764 2011-03-20 05:52:51 <ArtForz> copypasta
765 2011-03-20 05:52:54 <Kiba> Validus: he's probably trolling
766 2011-03-20 05:52:59 <robotarmy> genjix: no i am not - i am saying that when we think about bitcoin and when we design this new system - if we are acting like we do - without caring for people - considering fair share, earth care and people care - then the project is failed
767 2011-03-20 05:53:03 <robotarmy> Kiba: i am a coder.
768 2011-03-20 05:53:06 <Validus> ya i could have told you it was cut/pastes earlier
769 2011-03-20 05:53:17 <robotarmy> for 15+ years
770 2011-03-20 05:53:21 <Validus> bullshit robotarmy i can type at an avg of 100 wpm just using pc regular
771 2011-03-20 05:53:23 <gasteve> robotarmy: you're baked
772 2011-03-20 05:53:28 <Validus> to type that much you pasted you'd need 250+
773 2011-03-20 05:53:34 <genjix> look at this fail post http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4593.0
774 2011-03-20 05:53:43 <genjix> copy/pasted for his payment
775 2011-03-20 05:53:49 <gasteve> you keep repeating the same stuff, but you can't really articulate any specifics
776 2011-03-20 05:54:03 <robotarmy> genjix: yes - you did try. and i appreciate it.
777 2011-03-20 05:54:05 <Validus> gasteve: thats cause the article doesnt have anything he can paste
778 2011-03-20 05:54:08 <Kiba> genjix: chinese students not doing much good?
779 2011-03-20 05:54:58 <genjix> i just love science
780 2011-03-20 05:55:06 <gasteve> so, can you define "fair share" for us?
781 2011-03-20 05:55:08 <genjix> & code & art & travel
782 2011-03-20 05:55:08 <gribble> Error: "code" is not a valid command.
783 2011-03-20 05:55:15 <genjix> a bit or history maybe :p
784 2011-03-20 05:55:15 <Kiba> I guess they're learning by trial and error how to run a free market company
785 2011-03-20 05:55:33 <robotarmy> gasteve: here is something specific - the mining people have already realized that in certain parts of the world the electricity cost means that generating the currency is not profitable - and that is not fair share - it doesn't help people who are already in a heirarchy of mis-distributed currency to break free.
786 2011-03-20 05:55:36 <genjix> politics/religion/philosophy though... what boring annoying subjects.
787 2011-03-20 05:55:36 <robotarmy> and that is important.
788 2011-03-20 05:55:46 <Kiba> philosophy is interesting
789 2011-03-20 05:55:57 <Kiba> I get to poke at old philosophers' argument
790 2011-03-20 05:56:06 <Kiba> Plato is just an ass
791 2011-03-20 05:56:16 <genjix> erm you do realise that electricity is CHEAPER in poor countries?
792 2011-03-20 05:56:16 <Kiba> Augustine believe in a bunch of nonsense
793 2011-03-20 05:56:18 <gasteve> so, those people just buy the currency from those that can mine more economically....problem solved
794 2011-03-20 05:56:20 <genjix> like way way way cheaper
795 2011-03-20 05:56:23 <gasteve> next?
796 2011-03-20 05:57:33 <Validus> http://www.share-international.org/archives/environmental/en_amfair.htm
797 2011-03-20 05:58:54 <Kiba> genjix: sounds like third world countries and export bitcoin mining
798 2011-03-20 05:59:02 <Kiba> err bitcoin transaction processing
799 2011-03-20 05:59:04 <robotarmy> gasteve : In a farm that is carefully tended - to make sure that the lang gets richer and the soil improves and - this contributes to the wealth of the land - and if the people who are hungry are taken care of by this land  and the earth is taken care of properly with wisdom and the people who need care are tended to - this will generate a kind of weath that is not about money - that is about life.
800 2011-03-20 05:59:10 <Kiba> can export*
801 2011-03-20 05:59:22 <gasteve> anyway...I need to go to bed... robotarmy I'd rather die that to live you what I think is your system...so, would you be ok with killing me to create your utopia?  do you consider that fair?
802 2011-03-20 05:59:34 <robotarmy> gasteve:  sight
803 2011-03-20 05:59:49 <robotarmy> gasteve:  if you ever get a chance - go to a permaculture farm
804 2011-03-20 05:59:56 <robotarmy> that will wake you from your dream.
805 2011-03-20 06:00:25 <Validus> he reminds me of the guys on tv that were sitting in the rainforest and screaming for the trees since they couldnt cry out in pain
806 2011-03-20 06:00:28 <genjix> and you can have sex with hippy chicks
807 2011-03-20 06:01:04 <Validus> i bet he's on a mac
808 2011-03-20 06:01:29 <Validus> Notice- {from robotarmy} VERSION LimeChat for Mac 2.17
809 2011-03-20 06:01:31 <Validus> LOL
810 2011-03-20 06:02:19 <genjix> lawl
811 2011-03-20 06:02:34 <gasteve> robotarmy: don't know how you got off that tangent (about permaculture farming)...and I'm not actually against any technology that is more efficient, sustainable, whatever...I just don't think your ideas about how to attain that are viable
812 2011-03-20 06:02:50 <genjix> we established he's on a mac now
813 2011-03-20 06:02:54 <genjix> hyprocrite
814 2011-03-20 06:03:02 <Validus> lol
815 2011-03-20 06:03:05 <Kiba> why he's a hypocrite?
816 2011-03-20 06:03:21 <genjix> "the environment" >> uses a mac
817 2011-03-20 06:03:23 <Validus> id say close to 80% of users get a mac for political reasons
818 2011-03-20 06:03:29 <genjix> tard
819 2011-03-20 06:03:30 <gasteve> hey...I'm on a Mac
820 2011-03-20 06:03:31 <Validus> i learned that knocking doors for 8 years
821 2011-03-20 06:03:42 <genjix> why?
822 2011-03-20 06:03:43 <robotarmy> gasteve: you asked about fair share
823 2011-03-20 06:03:45 <Validus> most have them for political statements
824 2011-03-20 06:03:49 <genjix> i thought linux is more policital
825 2011-03-20 06:03:53 <Validus> since its consdired left wing
826 2011-03-20 06:04:02 <Validus> mac is more. just goto any college liberal town
827 2011-03-20 06:04:04 <genjix> like i'm individual
828 2011-03-20 06:04:18 <genjix> how is mac left wing? wtf
829 2011-03-20 06:04:38 <Validus> from their creaters views, most mac users i have found/met/seen are all left wing
830 2011-03-20 06:04:40 <Kiba> genjix: sound like sterotypical liberal shallowism
831 2011-03-20 06:04:44 <Validus> ive asked random ppl in shops to
832 2011-03-20 06:04:48 <robotarmy> sigh - now you establish my operating system and it means so much to you? - what about if i join with an irc client from plan9 os, or beos , or debian 6 , or suse, or windows - then who am i
833 2011-03-20 06:04:51 <Validus> i said some and not all. and its my opinion
834 2011-03-20 06:04:59 <Validus> but it goes with robotarmy atm lol
835 2011-03-20 06:05:10 <Validus> macs do have their purposes
836 2011-03-20 06:05:11 <Kiba> macs is style over substance
837 2011-03-20 06:05:13 <gasteve> I like Mac's because of the Unix/BSD kernel and pretty face (I also have Linux and Windows machines though)
838 2011-03-20 06:05:16 <genjix> yeah doorstops
839 2011-03-20 06:05:22 <Validus> itd be better if they took security more seriously
840 2011-03-20 06:05:25 <Kiba> linux is substance over style
841 2011-03-20 06:05:28 <Validus> thats prob #1 complaint
842 2011-03-20 06:05:45 <genjix> he wants to build an individual society free of coercion
843 2011-03-20 06:05:54 <genjix> >> uses a laptop from Mac corporation
844 2011-03-20 06:06:00 <robotarmy> well - just notice how your thinking works - i think you will learn something about how you respond to questions that do not have easy answers - you look for easy answers and make them up to return to comfort.
845 2011-03-20 06:06:01 <Validus> he's kinda late. the world is ending in a year
846 2011-03-20 06:06:16 <genjix> i bet you also wear a Che Guevara t shirt you bought from a company
847 2011-03-20 06:06:31 <gasteve> robotarmy: you seem to have everyone figured out
848 2011-03-20 06:06:35 <genjix> funny how he fought against capitalism, and then becomes one of their hottest products
849 2011-03-20 06:06:47 <robotarmy> hahha
850 2011-03-20 06:06:57 <Kiba> genjix: he looks cool
851 2011-03-20 06:07:04 <genjix> robotarmy: do you own a che guevara t shirt?
852 2011-03-20 06:07:09 <ArtForz> rofl
853 2011-03-20 06:07:18 <Kiba> I own a che guevara t-shirt
854 2011-03-20 06:07:36 <Kiba> but that's probably because my dad thought it look cool and brought it
855 2011-03-20 06:07:38 <robotarmy> genjix: no - but i used to have one - my brother gave it to me for christmas - i wore it until a few year ago and left it with some friends
856 2011-03-20 06:07:43 <Kiba> and he's like anti-communist
857 2011-03-20 06:07:50 <ArtForz> I think I still got one, too...
858 2011-03-20 06:08:02 <Validus> mine was a rage against the machine shirt
859 2011-03-20 06:08:35 <gasteve> bed time
860 2011-03-20 06:08:41 <gasteve> (I love rage btw)
861 2011-03-20 06:09:18 <devrandom> I have a question about transaction scripting
862 2011-03-20 06:09:25 <genjix> i guess the t shirt is out of fashion now anyway
863 2011-03-20 06:09:26 <devrandom> anybody familiar with the code?
864 2011-03-20 06:09:39 <genjix> devrandom: there'sa scripting guide on wiki
865 2011-03-20 06:09:44 <mmagic> just ask your question.
866 2011-03-20 06:09:56 <devrandom> I'm looking at IsStandard
867 2011-03-20 06:10:12 <devrandom> it's calling Solver()
868 2011-03-20 06:10:33 <devrandom> which seems to constrain the transaction script to just two possible bytecode sequences
869 2011-03-20 06:11:10 <devrandom> unless I'm reading the code wrong, it seems that it's not really possible to script transactions beyond those two sequences
870 2011-03-20 06:11:55 <devrandom> script.cpp line 962
871 2011-03-20 06:13:00 <devrandom> but I've seen Gavin talk about other script possibilities
872 2011-03-20 06:13:27 <devrandom> so was he talking about changing the bitcoin code to allow more flexible scripting again?  or am I reading the code wrong?
873 2011-03-20 06:15:10 <devrandom> in commit a206a23980c gavin says:   IsStandard() check for CScripts: only relay/include in blocks CScripts we can understand.
874 2011-03-20 06:15:29 <mmagic> there's another Solver @:1022.. do you have a callgraph?
875 2011-03-20 06:16:04 <devrandom> IsStandard is calling the two argument one at 962
876 2011-03-20 06:16:18 <mmagic> never mind, i just found main.cpp:     // Rather not work on nonstandard transactions
877 2011-03-20 06:16:54 <mmagic> based on this, i would say you appear to be correct.
878 2011-03-20 06:17:31 <devrandom> hm... that's too bad... means that you can't do escrow or other multi-party validated transactions anymore
879 2011-03-20 06:17:52 <genjix> wtf
880 2011-03-20 06:18:03 <genjix> gavin paid $50 for 10,000 BTC!
881 2011-03-20 06:18:06 <genjix> lol
882 2011-03-20 06:18:16 <mmagic> fork, re-enable. i'll use the fork.
883 2011-03-20 06:18:51 <Diablo-D3> heh
884 2011-03-20 06:19:00 <Diablo-D3> gavin should at least donate some of it to other devs
885 2011-03-20 06:19:13 <devrandom> mmagic - we'd need at least ArtForz to join us :)
886 2011-03-20 06:19:18 <genjix> he says he spent them all.
887 2011-03-20 06:19:20 <mmagic> / Allow replacing with a newer version of the same transaction   <-- this is also disabled.
888 2011-03-20 06:19:36 <mmagic> he got in first. he owes nobody
889 2011-03-20 06:19:47 <genjix> same as me really :p i had ~4k which i sold for ~$500
890 2011-03-20 06:20:47 <Diablo-D3> meh
891 2011-03-20 06:20:56 <Diablo-D3> I need to work harder on my pool software
892 2011-03-20 06:21:08 <mmagic> devrandom: i think there'd be a pile of people who, when presented with specific arguments for/against, would go with more features. all you have to do is present a use-case and create a feature which uses it.
893 2011-03-20 06:21:24 <devrandom> okay, will do
894 2011-03-20 06:21:35 <devrandom> I'll post something
895 2011-03-20 06:21:59 <devrandom> the basic idea is that an escrow agent could just be an additional public key on the coin
896 2011-03-20 06:22:10 <mmagic> cool!
897 2011-03-20 06:22:23 <devrandom> so the coin can only be spent if both the originator and the escrow agent agree
898 2011-03-20 06:22:32 <devrandom> so the escrow agent can only block, but not steal the money
899 2011-03-20 06:22:32 <mmagic> man, i wish more people used perforce. :(
900 2011-03-20 06:22:46 <devrandom> which reduces the trust you need to have in the escrow agent
901 2011-03-20 06:22:49 <nanotube> iirc there was a post from satoshi about using the script for escrow-type stuff.
902 2011-03-20 06:22:55 <nanotube> on the forums somewhere
903 2011-03-20 06:23:05 <devrandom> it also makes it possible to have instant transactions
904 2011-03-20 06:23:32 <mmagic> devrandom: so this is an additional pubkey on the generation block? or do you mean the generator spends it into two pubkeys?
905 2011-03-20 06:23:42 <mmagic> .. which then have to both agree to further spend the cash?
906 2011-03-20 06:24:04 <devrandom> not on generation... on any coin
907 2011-03-20 06:24:15 <devrandom> so lets say I have a coin I want to put in escrow
908 2011-03-20 06:24:17 <mmagic> in that case, would it be possible for  a naughty/careless escrow to make coins unspendable.
909 2011-03-20 06:24:29 <mmagic> ^.^?^
910 2011-03-20 06:24:50 <devrandom> yes, that's possible
911 2011-03-20 06:25:08 <devrandom> but then you can have multiple escrow agents with an "or" function between them
912 2011-03-20 06:26:06 <genjix> i just had a thought everybody:
913 2011-03-20 06:26:10 <mmagic> i suppose that's a necessary thing for the eventual receiver to trust the system.
914 2011-03-20 06:26:15 <genjix> won't bitcoin decrease petty crime?
915 2011-03-20 06:26:39 <genjix> imagine if people paid for things using password protected smartphones and didn't carry cash.
916 2011-03-20 06:27:04 <genjix> would be much harder to nab 10 bux and run
917 2011-03-20 06:27:19 <mmagic> can the eventual receiver be encoded in the block as part of the tx?
918 2011-03-20 06:27:41 <mmagic> so it is either spent to the receiver, or the sender, but nowhere else..
919 2011-03-20 06:27:53 <devrandom> hm... let me think about this for a sec
920 2011-03-20 06:28:08 <devrandom> the way I originally thought about it:
921 2011-03-20 06:28:21 <mmagic> i'm guess I'm not familiar with the scripting stuff itself, enough to usefully comment.
922 2011-03-20 06:28:51 <devrandom> the coin is sent to (pubkey-sender AND (pubkey-escrow1 OR pubkey-escrow2))
923 2011-03-20 06:29:10 <devrandom> (basically send to self, with additional pubkeys of the escrows
924 2011-03-20 06:29:12 <devrandom> )
925 2011-03-20 06:29:23 <mmagic> goodbye robotarmy, your pro-human ideas are good ones. the fact that bitcoins are a non-coercive currency is one of the big selling points i tell people about when i explain ?
926 2011-03-20 06:29:48 <devrandom> so to complete the transaction the sender and one of the escrows have to cooperate to create a transaction
927 2011-03-20 06:30:17 <devrandom> either going back to the sender if the transaction is void or to the receiver if the transaction went ahead
928 2011-03-20 06:31:09 <devrandom> the receiver always has to trust escrows
929 2011-03-20 06:31:19 <mmagic> but if it requires the sig of the sender, then the sender can block it indefinitely?
930 2011-03-20 06:31:34 <devrandom> yes, but then they lose their money
931 2011-03-20 06:31:39 <mmagic> but then i guess the sender doesn't have money anymore
932 2011-03-20 06:31:51 <mmagic> so it would be a spiteful transaction if that happened.
933 2011-03-20 06:32:42 <mmagic> i really like the idea of multiple escrow.
934 2011-03-20 06:32:43 <devrandom> I guess it would be ideal if the escrow could force it, but I can't think of a way to do that without trusting the escrow
935 2011-03-20 06:32:47 <mmagic> that's really awesome.
936 2011-03-20 06:33:19 <devrandom> yeah, you could do all kinds of stuff, like majority vote
937 2011-03-20 06:33:21 <mmagic> yeah, in which case no point in tacking on crypto for that.
938 2011-03-20 06:33:44 <mmagic> just tx it to them and then they tx it on
939 2011-03-20 06:34:00 <devrandom> oh, I know
940 2011-03-20 06:34:19 <devrandom> you can do ((pubkey-sender OR pubkey-receiver) AND (pubkey-escrow ...) )
941 2011-03-20 06:34:56 <devrandom> then the escrow can choose to cooperate with either party to complete the transaction
942 2011-03-20 06:35:39 <devrandom> but they can't send it to anybody else
943 2011-03-20 06:43:57 <devrandom> mmagic - still around?
944 2011-03-20 07:06:47 <mmagic> yea sort of. :)
945 2011-03-20 07:07:35 <mmagic> yeah that sounds great!
946 2011-03-20 07:08:31 <genjix> hahuang65: you also interested in shadowing python dev?
947 2011-03-20 07:12:19 <devrandom> mmagic - still browsing through the code... I think I'll post something tomorrow
948 2011-03-20 07:37:03 <genjix> MagicalTux: any chance you can PM me the details for the VPS when you're around? :p
949 2011-03-20 07:37:21 <genjix> i want to set it up as a resource for bitcoin development.
950 2011-03-20 07:38:04 <genjix> (allow people to login + do pair programming... host that bitcoin funding site .etc)
951 2011-03-20 07:39:26 <genjix> "Either your "old" password is invalid, or your new password confirmation does't match, or your new password is not at least 6 characters long, or your new email confirmation doesn't match"
952 2011-03-20 07:44:26 <hahuang65> hey genjix sorry i was afk