1 2011-03-28 00:03:55 <EPiSKiNG> how do I redeem bitcoins for USD?
  2 2011-03-28 00:07:21 <Aciid> i chose to put them in peoples butt one at a time
  3 2011-03-28 00:09:08 <Aciid> I smell poopoo
  4 2011-03-28 00:09:46 <ne0futur> EPiSKiNG: use mtgox and changing mtg$ for pp$ or LR$
  5 2011-03-28 00:10:00 <ne0futur> EP/join #bitcoin-otc
  6 2011-03-28 00:10:26 <ne0futur> EPiSKiNG: or finding someone to bbuy bitcoins directly with paypal
  7 2011-03-28 00:10:36 <ne0futur> but you  need a reputation and wot
  8 2011-03-28 00:11:17 <ne0futur> = web of trust
  9 2011-03-28 00:11:17 <TheKid> ne0futur: you need reputation less if you're selling for PPUSD
 10 2011-03-28 00:11:25 <TheKid> er, selling bitcoins
 11 2011-03-28 00:11:34 <TheKid> because bitcoins can't be charged back ;)
 12 2011-03-28 00:12:03 <Aciid> fuck every stinkin scammer
 13 2011-03-28 00:12:37 <ne0futur> sa reason why the wot system of #bitcoin-otc is great to me
 14 2011-03-28 00:13:00 <Aciid> had a brief with noagendamarket and other fellows at otc yesterday, they said its better to lose hundreds in process whilst findin a technique to repell scammers than going to authorities
 15 2011-03-28 00:13:04 <Aciid> stinkin anarchist scum
 16 2011-03-28 00:13:09 <Aciid> OTC is great
 17 2011-03-28 00:13:12 <Aciid> even i use it
 18 2011-03-28 00:13:23 <Aciid> but I find it sad that bitcoin got mainstream
 19 2011-03-28 00:13:44 <ne0futur> a secure way of exhanging is necessary
 20 2011-03-28 00:13:48 <ne0futur> otc is great for this
 21 2011-03-28 00:13:58 <xelister> it is ok to connect several miners to same normal bitcoind ?
 22 2011-03-28 00:13:59 <ne0futur> but there are other ways to exchange btcs
 23 2011-03-28 00:14:02 <xelister> e.g. all miners do RPC calls
 24 2011-03-28 00:14:05 <ne0futur> more "popuar"
 25 2011-03-28 00:14:20 <Aciid> xelister: no idea, I had several miners one pool account tho
 26 2011-03-28 00:14:21 <xelister> in unmodified normal bitcoind still each miner will get own keyspace to search so all is ok?
 27 2011-03-28 00:20:59 <[Tycho]> Yes.
 28 2011-03-28 00:28:31 <curiositysquared> Do I have to broadcast a tx to the network? Or could I modify my client to not do that in just incorporate it in my mining until I find a block containing my tx and then send it to the network?
 29 2011-03-28 00:28:32 <TheKid> Aciid: are you an idiot or a troll?
 30 2011-03-28 00:28:40 <TheKid> Or what
 31 2011-03-28 00:28:50 <curiositysquared> lol
 32 2011-03-28 00:29:08 <theymos> curiositysquared: You could choose not to broadcast it.
 33 2011-03-28 00:29:09 <TheKid> curiositysquared: you could technically modify a client to make blocks with your transaction in it and not broadcast to others
 34 2011-03-28 00:29:11 <curiositysquared> why is there so much bashing going on.
 35 2011-03-28 00:29:15 <TheKid> but that'd defeat the purpose
 36 2011-03-28 00:29:28 <curiositysquared> just making sure I understand correctly.
 37 2011-03-28 00:29:42 <curiositysquared> ... I came here for a reason but got distracted reading the back log.
 38 2011-03-28 00:29:47 <curiositysquared> sipa seems to have left.
 39 2011-03-28 00:30:03 <theymos> tcatm: I fixed /q/totalbc. (I wrote that calculator before the block numbering scheme was changed -- it was accurate then.)
 40 2011-03-28 00:31:32 <Aciid> TheKid: bit of both
 41 2011-03-28 00:38:22 <tcatm> theymos: shouldn't getblockcount return one more, too?
 42 2011-03-28 00:39:14 <theymos> No. It reports it as Bitcoin does. Bitcoin used to count the genesis block in getblockcount, but this was changed.
 43 2011-03-28 00:39:56 <theymos> I should change the description on the index, though.
 44 2011-03-28 00:40:49 <curiositysquared> sipa, we were talking about the stability of the difficulty between periods if the network hash rate were constant. The equations for the 95% confidence interval on the block generation rate are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisson_distribution#Confidence_interval
 45 2011-03-28 00:40:49 <tcatm> that's confusing :)
 46 2011-03-28 00:43:16 <theymos> It used to be that RPC getblocknumber returned the block number discounting the genesis block and getblockcount returned the actual number of blocks. For some reason getblocknumber became obsolete and getblockcount's behavior was changed to be the same as getblocknumber, instead of obsoleting getblockcount and always using getblocknumber. Not very intuitive.
 47 2011-03-28 00:44:00 <tcatm> yep
 48 2011-03-28 00:44:32 <tcatm> I wonder if anything would brake if we'd fix that.
 49 2011-03-28 01:07:46 <[Tycho]> I did it !
 50 2011-03-28 01:07:51 <Aciid> great!
 51 2011-03-28 01:08:26 <lfm> tcatm: as I remember it the block count was changed to be the same as the bock number such that the genesis block is not counted to be a regular block and so newbies who are not used to the computer way of starting numbering things at 0 will be less confused
 52 2011-03-28 01:10:39 <CIA-96> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r5d637bc / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Fixed another error handling bug - http://bit.ly/f14MlW
 53 2011-03-28 01:27:41 <tcatm> lfm: I see. It still feels wrong.
 54 2011-03-28 01:30:38 <lfm> tcatm: ya for people used to zero based counting it is kinda unexpected
 55 2011-03-28 01:31:39 <lfm> but anyway its prolly not a good idea to try to change it back right now
 56 2011-03-28 01:32:55 <tcatm> Actually, it makes sense using the height to calculate total bitcoins.
 57 2011-03-28 01:33:57 <lfm> you mean like (height +1) * 50?
 58 2011-03-28 01:34:19 <tcatm> no
 59 2011-03-28 01:34:59 <tcatm> like Sum[5000000000/2^Floor[k/210000], {k, 0, Infinity}]
 60 2011-03-28 01:35:25 <tcatm> if we start with 1 it won't be 21M coins
 61 2011-03-28 01:36:52 <lfm> oh ya, for that you have to treat the genisis block as first and regular
 62 2011-03-28 02:14:49 <phantomcircuit> heh
 63 2011-03-28 02:18:18 <phantomcircuit> so my client works
 64 2011-03-28 02:18:27 <phantomcircuit> but contention with the sqlite db is totally fucking it up
 65 2011-03-28 02:19:35 <Diablo-D3> well, sqlite doesnt allow seamless banging of the db
 66 2011-03-28 02:24:20 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, lulz
 67 2011-03-28 02:24:29 <phantomcircuit> BANGING THE DATABASE BRB
 68 2011-03-28 02:24:44 <phantomcircuit> it's actually select queries that're taking up most of the time now
 69 2011-03-28 02:24:48 <phantomcircuit> so that's an improvement
 70 2011-03-28 02:30:27 <phantomcircuit> inserting 500 blocks takes  upwards of 30 seconds
 71 2011-03-28 02:30:30 <phantomcircuit> of which 0.6 are spent actually INSERT/commit
 72 2011-03-28 02:35:22 <[Tycho]> ;;bc.stat
 73 2011-03-28 02:35:27 <gribble> Error: "bc.stat" is not a valid command.
 74 2011-03-28 02:35:28 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,stat
 75 2011-03-28 02:35:31 <gribble> Error: "bc,stat" is not a valid command.
 76 2011-03-28 02:35:32 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,stats
 77 2011-03-28 02:35:33 <gribble> Current Blocks: 115378 | Current Difficulty: 68978.89245792 | Next Difficulty At Block: 116927 | Next Difficulty In: 1549 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 5 hours, 15 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 72798.64671084
 78 2011-03-28 02:54:25 <Diablo-D3> http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2037453/nvidias-gtx590-fried-software-driver
 79 2011-03-28 02:56:56 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: ^
 80 2011-03-28 02:57:33 <[Tycho]> Lol.
 81 2011-03-28 03:28:31 <phantomcircuit> so my friend has a XFX 587X-ZNFC and it's sitting at about 50C
 82 2011-03-28 03:28:34 <phantomcircuit> doing nothing
 83 2011-03-28 03:28:39 <phantomcircuit> is this typical?
 84 2011-03-28 03:46:30 <da2ce7> ;;seen FellowTraveler
 85 2011-03-28 03:50:56 <u2time> how do you adjust your client to not accept free transactions?
 86 2011-03-28 03:51:34 <imdumb> Oh, wow.  Did this just broadcast my IP? Awesome.
 87 2011-03-28 03:55:20 <imdumb> u2time: I'm not sure, but why would you want to prohibit receiving btc?
 88 2011-03-28 03:55:21 <phantomcircuit> imdumb, if you're on irc then you're disclosing your ip
 89 2011-03-28 03:55:53 <imdumb> phantomcircuit: unless you're using a hostmask... I believe freenode provides a free "cloaking" service.
 90 2011-03-28 03:56:20 <Validus> if your connected on the internet your ip is already broadcasted no matter what you went through
 91 2011-03-28 03:56:54 <imdumb> True.
 92 2011-03-28 03:56:59 <phantomcircuit> imdumb, yeah but you have to convince staff to turn it on
 93 2011-03-28 03:57:04 <phantomcircuit> and i've yet to do so
 94 2011-03-28 03:58:06 <imdumb> phantomcircuit: actually it's very simple.  Their rules are described on their website.  Typically you only need to register the alias you want with nickserv, and then group fallback name, alias_ for example, to your registered account.
 95 2011-03-28 03:58:18 <imdumb> oh well, doesn't really matter.
 96 2011-03-28 03:58:30 <phantomcircuit> imdumb, yeah and then go and ask someonein #freenode to enable it
 97 2011-03-28 03:58:40 <phantomcircuit> except i've yet to actually be able to do that last step
 98 2011-03-28 03:58:43 <phantomcircuit> nobody is ever there
 99 2011-03-28 03:58:54 <Validus> their there , their just lurking
100 2011-03-28 03:58:55 <imdumb> phantomcircuit: yes, correct.  Really?  I've never had a problem with it.
101 2011-03-28 03:59:01 <imdumb> exactly.
102 2011-03-28 03:59:20 <Validus> i forgot my nickserv pass they had it reset in about 10 mins
103 2011-03-28 03:59:23 <imdumb> oh well, back to the wiki I go.... Need to brush up a bit before I ask my question(s).
104 2011-03-28 03:59:25 <Validus> then it went back to lurking
105 2011-03-28 03:59:28 <imdumb> Yup
106 2011-03-28 03:59:36 <imdumb> They're pretty good about stuf flike that.
107 2011-03-28 03:59:50 <imdumb> I wonder if this nick is registered, I think I may just take it.
108 2011-03-28 04:00:08 <imdumb> *stuff
109 2011-03-28 04:00:54 <phantomcircuit> Validus, actually the only time i've ever gotten help was in resetting a nickserv pass
110 2011-03-28 04:00:57 <phantomcircuit> that wasn't mine...
111 2011-03-28 04:01:05 <phantomcircuit> :shrug:
112 2011-03-28 04:01:12 <Validus> ya they lurking hehe
113 2011-03-28 04:06:50 <imdumb> OKay, here goes....
114 2011-03-28 04:06:53 <alias4201> gogogogogogogogo
115 2011-03-28 04:07:06 <imdumb> I've read most of the documentation, I've been mining for a few days or so, and now I'm going to ask a question about the 'limit' of two decimal places.
116 2011-03-28 04:07:49 <imdumb> I've read this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#How_divisible_are_Bitcoins? , and I'm wondering about "the program currently accepts only 2 decimal places..."
117 2011-03-28 04:08:38 <Keefe> afaik, if you use the rpc interface, you can use more than two decimal places
118 2011-03-28 04:08:45 <imdumb> First off, does that mean if someone, somehow, sends a transaction with a value smaller than two-decimal places: say 10.007864, or something, that it will be truncated to 10?
119 2011-03-28 04:08:52 <Keefe> no
120 2011-03-28 04:08:58 <imdumb> okay, that's cool.
121 2011-03-28 04:09:18 <Keefe> if someone's client lets them send a more precise amount like that, you will get it
122 2011-03-28 04:09:41 <Keefe> if your client rounds to two, you may have a problem spending it though
123 2011-03-28 04:09:50 <imdumb> gotchya, and the official client currently doesn't support sending more precise transactions?  If that's the case, what happens if the official client receives a more precise one?
124 2011-03-28 04:10:05 <imdumb> I'm using the official client, just to establish that.
125 2011-03-28 04:10:21 <Keefe> meaning, you might try to spend 10.007864 but you actually end up sending 10.00 and losing .007864
126 2011-03-28 04:10:24 <[Tycho]> You will receive it, but they will turn into fee when you use it as change.
127 2011-03-28 04:10:53 <imdumb> Oh, hy Tycho.  I've used your pool a bit.  Have some question for you as well, but I'll defer those to the forum.
128 2011-03-28 04:10:56 <imdumb> *hi
129 2011-03-28 04:11:00 <[Tycho]> Hello.
130 2011-03-28 04:11:17 <Keefe> i haven't tried myself, but i think even with the mainline (official) client, you can work with full precision with bitcoind CLI
131 2011-03-28 04:11:23 <imdumb> Fees... yeah, I'm not too clear on those just yet.  I'll read more about them before inquiring, though.
132 2011-03-28 04:11:43 <imdumb> Keefe: I would assume so, since it displays values in their full 8-place glory.
133 2011-03-28 04:12:05 <[Tycho]> This fee will be given to the block's owner.
134 2011-03-28 04:12:10 <Keefe> if you test it, let me know if it works right
135 2011-03-28 04:12:29 <imdumb> [Tycho]: ah!  So fees go to the person who 'discovered' a block?
136 2011-03-28 04:12:37 <Keefe> the fee is given to whoever creates the block that includes that txn
137 2011-03-28 04:12:41 <imdumb> Is that the block that crunches the transaction?
138 2011-03-28 04:12:47 <imdumb> ah, nice.
139 2011-03-28 04:12:54 <[Tycho]> The block that includes your transaction.
140 2011-03-28 04:13:02 <imdumb> right, that's what I meant by 'crunches'.
141 2011-03-28 04:13:12 <Keefe> it serves as an incentive to miners to publish your transaction
142 2011-03-28 04:13:28 <[Tycho]> But you can try to avoid loosing this.
143 2011-03-28 04:13:29 <imdumb> Keefe: could you elaborate?
144 2011-03-28 04:13:49 <Keefe> most miners will only publish (include in a block) a limited number of free txns
145 2011-03-28 04:14:13 <imdumb> uhm, doesn't that undermine the integrity of the blockchain?
146 2011-03-28 04:14:15 <u2time> as a miner how do limit free txn's?
147 2011-03-28 04:14:18 <Keefe> if you find your txns taking too long to get their first confirmation, you may want to start offering a small fee
148 2011-03-28 04:14:41 <imdumb> brb, need some water.
149 2011-03-28 04:15:16 <Keefe> imdumb: no, since nodes are required to accept any valid block (regardless of whether the publisher got fees from it)
150 2011-03-28 04:15:23 <[Tycho]> u2time, usually low priority free txes are already limited to 4 Kb
151 2011-03-28 04:15:33 <Keefe> so once someone includes a txn in a block, it's good from then on
152 2011-03-28 04:16:02 <imdumb> back
153 2011-03-28 04:16:12 <Keefe> u2time: if you want to change your miner's policies, you'd need to edit and recompile the source
154 2011-03-28 04:17:48 <imdumb> keefe: but if blocks are comprised of the transaction history, then doesn't excluding transactions because they have no fees associated with them limit, or inhibit, the visibility of transactions that have transpired?
155 2011-03-28 04:18:11 <Keefe> for example, there's nothing stopping you from changing your miner to accept unlimited free txns. if you then successfully make a block, all of those enter the blockchain
156 2011-03-28 04:18:30 <Keefe> problem is that would further encourage spam
157 2011-03-28 04:18:46 <imdumb> Note: I have not read the whitepaper linked through bitcoin.org --- it's on my ToDo list, though =D
158 2011-03-28 04:18:52 <Keefe> we already have people juggling a single penny back and forth between the same two addresses, clogging up the free txn space
159 2011-03-28 04:19:00 <u2time> i assume spam is to slow down miners right? so the spammer has an advantage
160 2011-03-28 04:19:09 <Keefe> i don't know
161 2011-03-28 04:19:57 <Keefe> imdumb: yes, but there's likely to always be someone willing to publish your free txn eventually
162 2011-03-28 04:20:20 <Keefe> if you get impatient, offer a small fee
163 2011-03-28 04:20:46 <imdumb> Hmm, but if there's a lag in the transaction visibility ,then I could (hypothetically) double-spend the BTC included in that ignored transaction (intentionally or otherwise)...
164 2011-03-28 04:21:19 <imdumb> My concern is not with receiving or having received a transaction, but rather ensuring the integrity of the blockchain.
165 2011-03-28 04:21:24 <Keefe> no, i believe all nodes keep track of all txns even before they're published
166 2011-03-28 04:21:32 <imdumb> ah, okay.
167 2011-03-28 04:21:39 <Keefe> so an attempt to double spend would be ignored by everyone
168 2011-03-28 04:21:54 <phantomcircuit> also most clients wont confirm a transaction until it's included in multiple blocks
169 2011-03-28 04:22:02 <imdumb> I guess I should re-read the double-spend sections.
170 2011-03-28 04:22:05 <Keefe> i'm not sure of that though, since that sounds like another way nodes would be vulnerable to a spam DoS
171 2011-03-28 04:22:05 <phantomcircuit> iirc 6 is the default
172 2011-03-28 04:22:40 <Keefe> phantomcircuit: it's just a cosmetic thing in the main client
173 2011-03-28 04:22:55 <phantomcircuit> Keefe, cosmetics are important here
174 2011-03-28 04:22:57 <Keefe> you can spend from txns that say "1/unconfirmed"
175 2011-03-28 04:23:12 <Keefe> maybe even "0/unconfirmed"
176 2011-03-28 04:23:37 <phantomcircuit> Keefe, yes you can
177 2011-03-28 04:23:40 <Keefe> now, many services do require 6, or more. for example, MtGox won't credit your account until at least 6
178 2011-03-28 04:23:40 <phantomcircuit> but you shouldn't
179 2011-03-28 04:24:19 <phantomcircuit> you're gambling that the previous transaction will be valid
180 2011-03-28 04:24:27 <imdumb> Just to be clear, confirmation means publication in a block. Correct?
181 2011-03-28 04:24:27 <Keefe> personally, for small trades like 50 BTC, if i don't have a bad feeling about the sender, i'll accept just the txn broadcast even with 0 confirmations
182 2011-03-28 04:24:35 <phantomcircuit> imdumb, yes
183 2011-03-28 04:24:51 <Keefe> the first confirmation, yes
184 2011-03-28 04:25:13 <Keefe> subsequent confirmations just represent additional blocks added to the chain building upon the first one
185 2011-03-28 04:25:19 <imdumb> "small trades like 50 BTC", hah, and I'm enjoying seeing my wallet value increase from that initial 0.05. >_<
186 2011-03-28 04:25:28 <Keefe> small is relative
187 2011-03-28 04:25:55 <imdumb> Anyway, let's get back to the precision thing.
188 2011-03-28 04:26:02 <Keefe> whatever you're willing to risk to that particular vulnerability
189 2011-03-28 04:26:05 <phantomcircuit> brb
190 2011-03-28 04:26:08 <imdumb> Such is my current concern/interest, and purpose for the visit.
191 2011-03-28 04:28:55 <imdumb> [01:59] <Keefe> afaik, if you use the rpc interface, you can use more than two decimal places
192 2011-03-28 04:30:16 <imdumb> Do the commands I issue to bitcoind, i.e. ~/bitcoind help, constitute the "rpc interface" you spoke of?
193 2011-03-28 04:30:19 <Keefe> RPC is how bitcoind when run with a command like sendtoaddress, talks to the running bitcoin
194 2011-03-28 04:30:42 <Keefe> yes
195 2011-03-28 04:31:27 <imdumb> alright, so presumably if I specified a decimal value with greater precision through the CLI command I would not need to worry about truncation. (as per our prior discussion)
196 2011-03-28 04:31:37 <Keefe> you should test it
197 2011-03-28 04:31:52 <imdumb> I will just read the source, but after I've read the white paper.
198 2011-03-28 04:37:23 <imdumb> It then stands to reason that (if the RPC interface /is/ capable of great precision) all pools should be able to make and receive payouts with better-than-two places: since they rely, or such is my understanding, on the RPC interface.  Right?  And no, I'm not ultimately suggesting that I feel cheated, I'm just trying to understand our system.
199 2011-03-28 04:37:32 <imdumb> sorry for the long lines....
200 2011-03-28 04:38:21 <Keefe> np
201 2011-03-28 04:38:49 <Keefe> i think the pools prefer to work with just two decimal places is because many people's clients only display to two anyway
202 2011-03-28 04:39:14 <Keefe> i do with the gui clients had an option to display full precision
203 2011-03-28 04:39:18 <Keefe> wish*
204 2011-03-28 04:39:19 <imdumb> Is it written anywhere officially that transactions with greater precision are not lost to the void?  Yes, in that wiki FAQ I linked, but that isn't exactly ... conclusive isn't the word i want, but shall suffice.
205 2011-03-28 04:39:52 <tcatm> Keefe: latest git supports full precision (gui + rpc)
206 2011-03-28 04:39:56 <Keefe> well, i can assure you the network and protocol itself works with 8 dec places
207 2011-03-28 04:40:02 <Keefe> oh, nice
208 2011-03-28 04:40:12 <imdumb> keefe: that makes sense, but just because it only displays two-points, surely it is still capable of handling more.  I mean, the official client certainly can, right?
209 2011-03-28 04:40:26 <imdumb> tcatm: good to know.
210 2011-03-28 04:41:06 <Keefe> in the protocol, all btc values are stored as integers, like 5000000000 for 50.00 BTC
211 2011-03-28 04:41:51 <imdumb> ah, very interesting.
212 2011-03-28 04:42:07 <Keefe> it's only when displayed that the decimla point is inserted and the extra precision sometimes discarded
213 2011-03-28 04:42:25 <imdumb> So we're doing with very big numbers here.... 2100000000000000, ultimately.
214 2011-03-28 04:42:41 <Keefe> yep
215 2011-03-28 04:43:01 <imdumb> ah, I really should read the source and white paper.  I thought all the "integer" talk was strictly for solving the SHA256 stuff.
216 2011-03-28 04:43:14 <Keefe> so when people criticize the "small" total quantity, just point out the divisibility
217 2011-03-28 04:43:33 <Keefe> "but you can't run a whole nation's economy on only 21M BTC"
218 2011-03-28 04:44:03 <Keefe> or "but there's not enough physical gold to go around"
219 2011-03-28 04:44:09 <Keefe> just divide further
220 2011-03-28 04:44:39 <Keefe> 2100000000000000 base units is just fine
221 2011-03-28 04:45:30 <Keefe> *than now
222 2011-03-28 04:45:39 <imdumb> I've been wondering if we'll see emerging bitcoin markets within nations where they have their own blockchain for themselves.  THat is, the global bitcoin (BTC, what we have now), and additional bitcoin inspired currencies per nation: cryptoeuro, cryptousd, cryptorub, etcetera.
223 2011-03-28 04:46:05 <Keefe> that wouldn't be wise, imo
224 2011-03-28 04:46:08 <imdumb> keefe: yeah, the 21M cap doesn't appear an issue to me, just means a single BTC will be more valuable.
225 2011-03-28 04:46:15 <Keefe> yep
226 2011-03-28 04:46:47 <Keefe> a smaller regional block chain would be vulnerable to sabotage by a much bigger nation's collective processing power
227 2011-03-28 04:47:09 <Keefe> a single global block chain is strongest
228 2011-03-28 04:47:18 <imdumb> keefe: how come?  I think it /might/ work since that's how it already is: USD, Yen, Euro, BTC.  With each nation having it's own bit-currency (blockchain) you remove the flaws with the existing monetary system (insecurity).  I'm not suggesting getting rid of BTC, rather that BTC would be the global standard.
229 2011-03-28 04:47:52 <Keefe> this vulnerability isn't directly comparable to existing national currencies
230 2011-03-28 04:48:14 <Keefe> BTC is supported by massive processing power
231 2011-03-28 04:48:24 <imdumb> I just see great value in the principles in a cryptocurrency, and think it might make nations more willing to accept it: even if they can change the total value, as they can now (cryptoUSD could still 'print' total money, for example), but BTC would still only have 21M.  People familiar with today's system have their familiarity.
232 2011-03-28 04:48:32 <Keefe> if an adversary with even more processing power wanted to cause trouble, they can
233 2011-03-28 04:50:06 <Keefe> i'm sure this subject has been hashed over many times in the forums. i'm far from an authority on this subject
234 2011-03-28 04:50:10 <tcatm> chains could share processing power, that's not a big problem
235 2011-03-28 04:50:11 <imdumb> True, but with the global BTC available wouldn't doing something like that (forcing their currency to a new blockchain) criplle their exchange rate?  I certainly don't know, I'm no economist, I was just pondering if there would be a benefit to the global BTC currency, with multiple local cryptocurrencies.
236 2011-03-28 04:50:33 <imdumb> criple*
237 2011-03-28 04:50:48 <imdumb> ... *criplle was right the first  time >_>
238 2011-03-28 04:50:53 <Keefe> cripple
239 2011-03-28 04:51:04 <imdumb> that too ;)
240 2011-03-28 04:51:41 <imdumb> brb
241 2011-03-28 04:51:52 <joepie91> mm
242 2011-03-28 04:51:55 <joepie91> suppose you had a botnet
243 2011-03-28 04:51:59 <joepie91> that would have more processing power
244 2011-03-28 04:52:02 <joepie91> than the entire current network
245 2011-03-28 04:52:13 <joepie91> ... would it be possible to manipulate and ultimately crash the bitcoin network?
246 2011-03-28 04:52:22 <Keefe> hopefully someday that will be out of reach of even the biggest botnets
247 2011-03-28 04:52:36 <joepie91> but right now that is a vulnerability, right?
248 2011-03-28 04:52:55 <Keefe> to some extent. i'm not sure how much disruption can actually be caused
249 2011-03-28 04:53:14 <joepie91> fake confirmations?
250 2011-03-28 04:53:30 <dissipate> joepie91, one problem. once it was detected that the network was under attack, bitcoins would either drop a huge amount in value or become worthless. thus, the monetary incentive of attacking is that not great.
251 2011-03-28 04:53:46 <joepie91> I know
252 2011-03-28 04:53:53 <joepie91> the issue is not a monetary incentive
253 2011-03-28 04:53:57 <joepie91> the issue would be an ideological incentive
254 2011-03-28 04:54:25 <joepie91> assuming a worst case scenario
255 2011-03-28 04:54:29 <dissipate> i would venture to say there is a LOT more to be made in the extremely vulnerable payment systems like credit cards and bank accounts
256 2011-03-28 04:54:36 <imdumb> Indeed, I think the biggest threat to BTC are those against it on principle: like nations whose currency would be devalued by the ideas behind BTC.
257 2011-03-28 04:54:39 <joepie91> what if there is a massive russian botnet crew that does not agree with BTC
258 2011-03-28 04:54:50 <joepie91> for whatever reason
259 2011-03-28 04:55:00 <joepie91> or, assuming governments have control over botnets which wouldn't be unlikely
260 2011-03-28 04:55:04 <joepie91> a government wanted to shut down BTC?
261 2011-03-28 04:55:07 <imdumb> joe: or more likely, the russian government itself who wouldn't like BTC
262 2011-03-28 04:55:09 <joepie91> all worst case scenarios here
263 2011-03-28 04:55:18 <joepie91> yes, exactly
264 2011-03-28 04:55:30 <dissipate> joepie91, one problem with that. the botnet would have to have high end GPUs. a lot of them.
265 2011-03-28 04:55:42 <dissipate> a botnet with just CPUs would be much less likely to take over
266 2011-03-28 04:55:42 <joepie91> shouldn't be a problem for a government.
267 2011-03-28 04:56:01 <dissipate> people would notice if their GPUs went to 100% usage
268 2011-03-28 04:56:03 <imdumb> a cluster, grid, or 'cloud' setup wouldn't be a threat?
269 2011-03-28 04:56:14 <lfm> joepie91: the ruu
270 2011-03-28 04:56:20 <joepie91> buy a heap of high end GPUs to take out a currency that might potentially threaten the <insert fiat currency here>, and cause losses for them
271 2011-03-28 04:56:23 <imdumb> dissipate: not if they're asleep, or it only engages if there is no keyboard/mouse activity.
272 2011-03-28 04:56:33 <lfm> joepie91: the russians love bitcoin tho
273 2011-03-28 04:56:35 <joepie91> that does not seem too unlikely for me
274 2011-03-28 04:56:40 <dissipate> joepie91, no doubt. actually, a government would be better off just spending several million dollars on custom hardware to outrun the GPUs.
275 2011-03-28 04:56:42 <joepie91> yes, but the issue is - what if someone doesn't?
276 2011-03-28 04:56:47 <joepie91> and yes
277 2011-03-28 04:56:48 <joepie91> exactly
278 2011-03-28 04:56:51 <joepie91> you have to assume worst case
279 2011-03-28 04:56:57 <joepie91> when you design something like this
280 2011-03-28 04:57:15 <dissipate> $5 million or so could get you custom silicon chips
281 2011-03-28 04:57:21 <joepie91> and worst case would probably be a government that doesn't like the potential losses for themselves if bitcoin gets big... and has the money to invest in custom processing units
282 2011-03-28 04:57:37 <joepie91> _if_ that happened, it would be possible to kill bitcoin, right?
283 2011-03-28 04:57:44 <[Tycho]> 0.5 mln is enough :)
284 2011-03-28 04:57:47 <imdumb> or just bullies [chip-manufacturer] into doing their bidding.
285 2011-03-28 04:57:58 <joepie91> that, too
286 2011-03-28 04:58:10 <lfm> joepie91: most scenarios show cooperating with bitcoin is more profitable than disrupting it
287 2011-03-28 04:58:11 <dissipate> i doubt bitcoin is on their radar, and when it does get on the radar, those invested in bitcoin will have a big incentive to beat the government.
288 2011-03-28 04:58:19 <joepie91> I know
289 2011-03-28 04:58:23 <joepie91> which is why I'm playing devils advocate
290 2011-03-28 04:58:28 <joepie91> and assuming the worst case scenario
291 2011-03-28 04:58:42 <joepie91> if the positive scenarios work out is completely irrelevant
292 2011-03-28 04:58:48 <imdumb> lfm: yeah, but that ignores people propensity to resist change and fear of the unknown.
293 2011-03-28 04:58:48 <joepie91> it's about the disaster scenarios
294 2011-03-28 04:58:58 <imdumb> *people's
295 2011-03-28 04:59:14 <dissipate> lfm, i disagree there. governments like their central banks. :O
296 2011-03-28 04:59:22 <imdumb> exactly
297 2011-03-28 04:59:36 <lfm> well we could worry about that I guess but without evidence its just another theory
298 2011-03-28 04:59:40 <Keefe> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power
299 2011-03-28 04:59:49 <imdumb> more to the point, they like the /control/ their central banks give them.  Switching to BTC inhibits their control.
300 2011-03-28 04:59:56 <joepie91> lfm: it doesn't matter that it's "just a theory"
301 2011-03-28 04:59:58 <imdumb> lfm: hypothesis.
302 2011-03-28 05:00:01 <joepie91> it is technically possible
303 2011-03-28 05:00:09 <joepie91> and somewhat sensible
304 2011-03-28 05:00:16 <joepie91> so it should be taken into account
305 2011-03-28 05:00:18 <joepie91> regardless of whether it is believable
306 2011-03-28 05:00:29 <lfm> yup, if it happens we give up
307 2011-03-28 05:00:30 <dissipate> imdumb, no no, according to 'emanicpator' on the forums, we can work with governments and they will eventually love bitcoin. :P
308 2011-03-28 05:01:28 <dissipate> lfm, give up? not really. just time to design a more robust network
309 2011-03-28 05:01:56 <Kiba> dissipate: ya mean, tricked
310 2011-03-28 05:02:47 <dissipate> imdumb, he knows people in high places in government. they are all nice guys. read about it here: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4960.0
311 2011-03-28 05:02:54 <Kiba> guberment is not conductive to voluntary mindset
312 2011-03-28 05:03:26 <Blitzboom> if you want to strengthen the bitcoin network, buy bitcoins
313 2011-03-28 05:03:32 <Blitzboom> => more people will start mining
314 2011-03-28 05:03:48 <imdumb> dissipate: alright, I'll give it a read.
315 2011-03-28 05:04:09 <imdumb> Blitzboom: I think offering services that accept BTC is more impoartant.
316 2011-03-28 05:04:29 <lfm> yup that too
317 2011-03-28 05:04:33 <Blitzboom> sure
318 2011-03-28 05:04:41 <dissipate> accepting bitcoins for services is the best way to grow bitcoin
319 2011-03-28 05:04:42 <Blitzboom> buying would only help in the short term
320 2011-03-28 05:04:58 <Blitzboom> dissipate: yes, but services which actually have demand
321 2011-03-28 05:05:21 <Blitzboom> if you want to make this happen, contribute to the bounty: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4667.0
322 2011-03-28 05:05:31 <imdumb> If that.  I would convert some captial into BTC right now if I had local places to spend them.  When I can buy food with BTC, I'll be very happy.  Supposedly there is a place relatively nearby, but it's far enough to be out of reach.
323 2011-03-28 05:06:02 <Blitzboom> bitcoin doesnt have to replace fiat money immediately &
324 2011-03-28 05:06:09 <imdumb> no, certainly not.
325 2011-03-28 05:06:11 <Blitzboom> it would be awesome already if we only just took over one field
326 2011-03-28 05:06:13 <dissipate> Blitzboom, what shops have started accepting bitcoin based on what people in that thread have done?
327 2011-03-28 05:06:29 <imdumb> dissipate: I believe they're listed in that thread.
328 2011-03-28 05:06:31 <Blitzboom> dissipate: i didnt pay a bounty yet, noone qualified
329 2011-03-28 05:06:47 <imdumb> That was one of the earlier threads I read when I got involved with BTC.
330 2011-03-28 05:06:52 <Blitzboom> but one guy reported he had success with http://privacyfoundation.de/
331 2011-03-28 05:07:18 <Blitzboom> hopefully theyll add it to donation/shop soon
332 2011-03-28 05:07:40 <Blitzboom> id happily pay the bounty for them
333 2011-03-28 05:08:29 <joepie91> ... the PR3 is a hard requirement? :|
334 2011-03-28 05:08:46 <Blitzboom> not really
335 2011-03-28 05:08:49 <joepie91> oh
336 2011-03-28 05:08:54 <joepie91> I might try to get Heihachi to accept BTC
337 2011-03-28 05:09:07 <Blitzboom> i mean yes, it must have PR 3 or higher
338 2011-03-28 05:09:08 <dissipate> Blitzboom, accepting bitcoins for donations is cool. but i think accepting it for goods and services is much better.
339 2011-03-28 05:09:12 <Blitzboom> but it isnt hard for a website
340 2011-03-28 05:09:18 <joepie91> Heihachi has PR2 :|
341 2011-03-28 05:09:23 <Blitzboom> dissipate: thats why my bounty for shops is double as high
342 2011-03-28 05:09:31 <Blitzboom> also, they sell cryptosticks, at least
343 2011-03-28 05:09:54 <Blitzboom> joepie91: you might still get some donations if you post in the thread
344 2011-03-28 05:10:01 <joepie91> ye, I was going to ask them anyway
345 2011-03-28 05:10:03 <Blitzboom> (and announce that you will write to them)
346 2011-03-28 05:10:05 <joepie91> but ye, I will
347 2011-03-28 05:10:16 <Blitzboom> dissipate: sexcam-sites, too
348 2011-03-28 05:10:33 <dissipate> Blitzboom, yep, especially those.
349 2011-03-28 05:10:47 <dissipate> Blitzboom, anyone try to get a sexcam site to accept bitcoin?
350 2011-03-28 05:10:53 <Blitzboom> yes
351 2011-03-28 05:11:07 <dissipate> successfully?
352 2011-03-28 05:11:07 <joepie91> anyone tried cam4? :P
353 2011-03-28 05:11:08 <Blitzboom> someone wanted to contact cam4
354 2011-03-28 05:11:13 <Blitzboom> dunno
355 2011-03-28 05:11:55 <dissipate> come on people, there are markets out there that need to be tapped! drugs, porn, weapons. it doesn't matter, as long as bitcoin keeps on growin'! :O
356 2011-03-28 05:12:27 <Blitzboom> i dont know why noone is willing to jump on
357 2011-03-28 05:12:32 <Blitzboom> except for silkroadmarket
358 2011-03-28 05:12:44 <joepie91> cam4 would probably be willing
359 2011-03-28 05:12:47 <joepie91> to use BTC
360 2011-03-28 05:12:49 <dissipate> gotta compete with $100 bills
361 2011-03-28 05:12:56 <joepie91> and they have quite some business going on there
362 2011-03-28 05:13:02 <Blitzboom> joepie91: contact them too, they qualify in terms of page rank
363 2011-03-28 05:13:10 <joepie91> heh
364 2011-03-28 05:13:15 <joepie91> I just hope they respond
365 2011-03-28 05:13:21 <joepie91> they never responded to my last email, lol
366 2011-03-28 05:13:30 <Blitzboom> doesnt really matter. every email signifies demand
367 2011-03-28 05:13:38 <dissipate> what about livejasmin?
368 2011-03-28 05:13:44 <dissipate> isn't that another major one?
369 2011-03-28 05:13:46 <Blitzboom> its just "hey your sites cool, but id like to pay with bitcoins"
370 2011-03-28 05:14:07 <joepie91> true
371 2011-03-28 05:14:09 <Blitzboom> dissipate: i have no clue, i dont visit sexcam sites :D
372 2011-03-28 05:14:21 <Blitzboom> but they have a page rank of 4, too
373 2011-03-28 05:14:47 <Blitzboom> seriously, i dont care where bitcoin starts. i assume it will HAVE to start there
374 2011-03-28 05:15:00 <joepie91> actually its very likely to start there
375 2011-03-28 05:15:03 <Blitzboom> because the risks the least for them and reward high
376 2011-03-28 05:15:07 <joepie91> these industries are often early adopters
377 2011-03-28 05:15:08 <joepie91> of new things
378 2011-03-28 05:15:46 <Blitzboom> and i also dont care about bitcoin getting an "underworld" image
379 2011-03-28 05:16:06 <Blitzboom> business is business
380 2011-03-28 05:16:10 <dissipate> neither do i. get it out there, i don't care where.
381 2011-03-28 05:16:18 <joepie91> exactly
382 2011-03-28 05:16:24 <Blitzboom> demand is demand
383 2011-03-28 05:16:27 <joepie91> there's only one way to build demand
384 2011-03-28 05:16:30 <joepie91> that is by building userbase
385 2011-03-28 05:16:37 <joepie91> which is in turn done by getting underground services to accept it
386 2011-03-28 05:16:45 <dissipate> joepie91, but we gotta work with government. they are our friends. :P
387 2011-03-28 05:16:48 <Blitzboom> appreciate your thinking
388 2011-03-28 05:16:50 <joepie91> ..
389 2011-03-28 05:16:58 <joepie91> I am not particularly fond of governments in their current form.
390 2011-03-28 05:16:59 <Blitzboom> dissipate: those political discussions on the forums are tiring
391 2011-03-28 05:16:59 <dissipate> joepie91, what user base?
392 2011-03-28 05:17:12 <joepie91> dissipate: a broader userbase for bitcoin
393 2011-03-28 05:17:28 <joepie91> so that it is more attractive for other "regular" businesses to also accept bitcoin
394 2011-03-28 05:17:46 <Blitzboom> i dont understand why this shit is being discussed
395 2011-03-28 05:17:46 <dissipate> joepie91, it's all about the shops. if no one accepts bitcoin for real services, it's just a hobby and speculation market.
396 2011-03-28 05:18:04 <joepie91> yes, and how do you get businesses to accept bitcoin? by creating a demanding userbase.
397 2011-03-28 05:18:13 <Blitzboom> henn and egg, joepie91
398 2011-03-28 05:18:22 <dissipate> Blitzboom, because guys like 'emansipator' never saw something they didn't want regulated.
399 2011-03-28 05:18:25 <Blitzboom> shops say "hey you can pay with bitcoin btw"
400 2011-03-28 05:18:30 <joepie91> s/businesses/regular businesses/
401 2011-03-28 05:18:39 <Blitzboom> customer looks this bitcoin thing up
402 2011-03-28 05:18:45 <joepie91> for something like cam4 a large userbase is not important to accept bitcoin
403 2011-03-28 05:18:46 <blablaa> joepie91, note that the word "demand" in economics is ambiguous
404 2011-03-28 05:18:51 <joepie91> same for things like heihachi
405 2011-03-28 05:18:55 <dissipate> joepie91, why would someone want bitcoin if they can't spend it? other than speculation.
406 2011-03-28 05:18:58 <joepie91> for something like your supermarket, it is
407 2011-03-28 05:19:06 <blablaa> joepie91, it can mean both what people want and what people are willing to pay
408 2011-03-28 05:19:11 <joepie91> it's not completely henn and egg
409 2011-03-28 05:19:13 <blablaa> joepie91, and these are NOT the same things.
410 2011-03-28 05:19:28 <joepie91> I'm talking about demand as in "customers like to pay with bitcoin" here.
411 2011-03-28 05:19:46 <Blitzboom> bitcoin users like to pay with bitcoin
412 2011-03-28 05:19:52 <Blitzboom> but customers dont even know it exists
413 2011-03-28 05:20:10 <joepie91> exactly
414 2011-03-28 05:20:11 <Blitzboom> and if they do, they think its monopoly money
415 2011-03-28 05:20:14 <blablaa> joepie91, then u mean demand as in "what people want2
416 2011-03-28 05:20:14 <joepie91> so make people aware of that
417 2011-03-28 05:20:20 <joepie91> and make them undestand it's a real currency
418 2011-03-28 05:20:23 <joepie91> and not just a plaything
419 2011-03-28 05:20:26 <blablaa> joepie91, homeless people also want homes, but this doesn't mean they'll get homes
420 2011-03-28 05:20:29 <joepie91> and they will think "hey but I like bitcoin"
421 2011-03-28 05:20:50 <joepie91> blablaa: you are now arguing semantics in a discussion where they are completely irrelevant
422 2011-03-28 05:20:52 <blablaa> joepie91, nobody needs to care for "demand" in that sense
423 2011-03-28 05:20:53 <dissipate> online shop owners that are willing to receive a certain percentage of their income in bitcoin is the key.
424 2011-03-28 05:20:57 <joepie91> ^
425 2011-03-28 05:21:00 <Blitzboom> if you guys want to create some real demand, spread the word about silkroadmarket
426 2011-03-28 05:21:06 <Blitzboom> i can provide you the tor-link if needed
427 2011-03-28 05:21:08 <joepie91> i actually am doing just that, lol
428 2011-03-28 05:21:27 <joepie91> squatters... don't have problems with something like that at all :)
429 2011-03-28 05:21:36 <blablaa> joepie91, i think it is a plaything :P
430 2011-03-28 05:21:38 <Blitzboom> silk road is awesome, but not enough
431 2011-03-28 05:21:48 <joepie91> blablaa: it's a real currency though
432 2011-03-28 05:21:49 <blablaa> joepie91, but i'm irrelevant because i've nothing to sell right now :)
433 2011-03-28 05:21:51 <joepie91> it might be more playful than others
434 2011-03-28 05:21:54 <joepie91> but it's still a real currency
435 2011-03-28 05:21:57 <Blitzboom> they have 750 registered users now
436 2011-03-28 05:22:01 <dissipate> that's how you break the chicken and egg problem. a shop owner likes the idea of bitcoin and allows customers to use bitcoin. they receive a relatively small revenue in bitcoin.
437 2011-03-28 05:22:02 <Blitzboom> and 190 transactions done
438 2011-03-28 05:22:23 <Blitzboom> dissipate: yeah, he could promote bitcoin by offering discounts
439 2011-03-28 05:22:27 <Blitzboom> or making gifts
440 2011-03-28 05:22:49 <blablaa> joepie91, it is a "real currency" if u define "real currency" suitably :)
441 2011-03-28 05:22:54 <dissipate> it all starts off on the margin.
442 2011-03-28 05:23:25 <Blitzboom> also, spread this thread
443 2011-03-28 05:23:37 <Blitzboom> i mean, you get money for sending some emails
444 2011-03-28 05:23:39 <joepie91> gah, can't find where I left my ukash codes
445 2011-03-28 05:24:13 <blablaa> dissipate, u break he chicken and egg problem by assuming someone will break it, isn't it?
446 2011-03-28 05:24:23 <blablaa> dissipate, a shop owner likes the idea of bitcoin..
447 2011-03-28 05:24:47 <Blitzboom> its not a real problem
448 2011-03-28 05:24:55 <Blitzboom> its supply and demand, basically
449 2011-03-28 05:25:02 <Blitzboom> equilibrium will be reached sometime
450 2011-03-28 05:25:40 <Blitzboom> theres much more demand for paying in bitcoins than supply atm
451 2011-03-28 05:25:43 <dissipate> blablaa, sorry don't understand the question.
452 2011-03-28 05:26:14 <Blitzboom> yes it is. see fiat money
453 2011-03-28 05:26:16 <blablaa> (i'm referring to supply and demand and equilibrium)
454 2011-03-28 05:26:30 <Blitzboom> why is that a religion? its facts
455 2011-03-28 05:26:42 <Blitzboom> bitcoins a free market
456 2011-03-28 05:27:05 <blablaa> fiat money is backed by reputation of governments..
457 2011-03-28 05:27:15 <blablaa> however wrong it is, it is a real thing
458 2011-03-28 05:27:16 <Blitzboom> bitcoin is backed by the reputation of individuals
459 2011-03-28 05:27:34 <Blitzboom> and its trading for over 0.8$
460 2011-03-28 05:27:34 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
461 2011-03-28 05:27:36 <da2ce7> ;;bc,stats
462 2011-03-28 05:27:36 <gribble> Current Blocks: 115399 | Current Difficulty: 68978.89245792 | Next Difficulty At Block: 116927 | Next Difficulty In: 1528 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 0 hours, 39 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 73142.05994550
463 2011-03-28 05:27:38 <gribble> Current Blocks: 115399 | Current Difficulty: 68978.89245792 | Next Difficulty At Block: 116927 | Next Difficulty In: 1528 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 0 hours, 39 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 73142.05994550
464 2011-03-28 05:27:45 <Blitzboom> its a success already
465 2011-03-28 05:27:47 <blablaa> bitcoin is backed by reputation of bitcoin system, which is also a real thing..
466 2011-03-28 05:27:55 <Blitzboom> we just need to put it into the next stage
467 2011-03-28 05:28:03 <da2ce7> ;;bc,mtgox
468 2011-03-28 05:28:03 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.8721,"low":0.82,"vol":2878,"buy":0.82,"sell":0.838,"last":0.82}}
469 2011-03-28 05:28:25 <blablaa> Blitzboom, still, no reason to believe that there is an equilibrium we're going toward
470 2011-03-28 05:28:47 <Blitzboom> if the demand grows high enough, supply is certain to follow
471 2011-03-28 05:28:55 <Blitzboom> and vice versa
472 2011-03-28 05:29:28 <blablaa> da2ce7, how do u define liquidity?
473 2011-03-28 05:29:30 <Blitzboom> not very liquid. check out mtgox
474 2011-03-28 05:29:45 <blablaa> an idea is bid/ask spread..
475 2011-03-28 05:30:09 <da2ce7> Blitzboom, blablaa, compared to 3months a god.
476 2011-03-28 05:30:15 <da2ce7> *ago.
477 2011-03-28 05:30:31 <da2ce7> if the market is much more liquid now, that would push the prices down.
478 2011-03-28 05:30:37 <da2ce7> (aka, more people are selling)
479 2011-03-28 05:32:37 <blablaa> Blitzboom, if someone wants very much something, nothing special happens..
480 2011-03-28 05:32:52 <blablaa> Blitzboom, unless he has enough things to sell to others
481 2011-03-28 05:32:56 <Blitzboom> yes it does. you can actually do something about it
482 2011-03-28 05:33:12 <Blitzboom> yeah, or you could spread the word, buy things yourself etc.
483 2011-03-28 05:34:14 <blablaa> still, this someone needs something salable..
484 2011-03-28 05:34:23 <blablaa> his work may be salable
485 2011-03-28 05:34:57 <da2ce7> there isn't that much 'goods' in the bitcoin community that I want, so I hire developers for my projects.
486 2011-03-28 05:35:53 <Kiba> stop being such a wussy
487 2011-03-28 05:35:54 <blablaa> Blitzboom, my point is.. if u interpret "demand" just as a supply of money, then it is just another name for supply.. if instead u interpret it as what people want, then it is not directly relevant
488 2011-03-28 05:36:25 <Blitzboom> uhm, what. supply of money is just the supply
489 2011-03-28 05:36:38 <Blitzboom> i was referring to demand for bitcoin goods and supply for them
490 2011-03-28 05:36:54 <blablaa> i'm saying that the word demand is ambiguous.
491 2011-03-28 05:37:00 <blablaa> wait, i'll give a link..
492 2011-03-28 05:40:02 <Blitzboom> da2ce7: secret projects i guess?
493 2011-03-28 05:40:08 <Blitzboom> for the time being
494 2011-03-28 05:40:33 <blablaa> well, i can no longer find the link :|
495 2011-03-28 05:40:39 <da2ce7> ah, yeah. Two secert projects underway atm
496 2011-03-28 05:40:46 <Kiba> one, the name. Secondly, no score data.
497 2011-03-28 05:40:49 <blablaa> Blitzboom, anyway, demand for bitcoin is just another name for supply of goods measured in bitcoins
498 2011-03-28 05:40:54 <da2ce7> annother secert project in planing stage
499 2011-03-28 05:41:00 <blablaa> Blitzboom, and i see no reason to give two names for the same thing
500 2011-03-28 05:41:21 <Kiba> I have a serect project involve celluar automata and real time strategy games
501 2011-03-28 05:41:38 <Kiba> in the planning and technology testing
502 2011-03-28 05:41:42 <blablaa> Blitzboom, (unless by demand u mean something else.. in that case there may be a case for having another name)
503 2011-03-28 05:41:45 <da2ce7> well i lie, there is annother project.
504 2011-03-28 05:41:50 <da2ce7> so 4 projects.
505 2011-03-28 05:42:26 <Kiba> which will be used mostly for self-sustaination
506 2011-03-28 05:42:41 <da2ce7> if anyone wants to donate time or bitcoins to my BtcFn project, it will be most helpfull,  and good for the world.
507 2011-03-28 05:42:47 <lfm> blabla the thing is bitcoin can also be considered a commodity bought and sold in other currencies whereby the "demand" for bitcoins makes sense
508 2011-03-28 05:43:21 <da2ce7> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2312.msg30678#msg30678
509 2011-03-28 05:43:42 <blablaa> lfm, whereby others like to sell their goods for our bitcoins, sure
510 2011-03-28 05:44:06 <midnightmagic> people are accepting bitcoins in strange places.
511 2011-03-28 05:44:09 <blablaa> lfm, but this doesn't depends only on bitcoins.. it depends on bitcoins and how they're considered by potential sellers
512 2011-03-28 05:44:14 <lfm> blabla no bitcoin IS the commodity in those markets
513 2011-03-28 05:44:30 <midnightmagic> i became an "awesomer" at the Awesome Shit Club by paying with bitcoins.
514 2011-03-28 05:44:40 <da2ce7> *amount
515 2011-03-28 05:44:51 <midnightmagic> equivalent of $50 CAD.
516 2011-03-28 05:45:02 <da2ce7> ASCPWB!
517 2011-03-28 05:45:05 <blablaa> lfm, so your proposition is.. bitcoin is a commodity.. and therefore there is supply and demand?
518 2011-03-28 05:45:13 <blablaa> lfm, i think it is non sequitor
519 2011-03-28 05:45:19 <da2ce7> I want a bitcoin clothing store.
520 2011-03-28 05:45:26 <da2ce7> that uses hempt for the cloths.
521 2011-03-28 05:45:30 <da2ce7> :)
522 2011-03-28 05:45:30 <midnightmagic> pwb?
523 2011-03-28 05:45:45 <blablaa> lfm, my wastes are a commodity too, but i can't buy things with them
524 2011-03-28 05:45:51 <da2ce7> long lasting clothes, with cool logos on it.
525 2011-03-28 05:45:55 <lfm> blabla its just a point of view
526 2011-03-28 05:46:11 <midnightmagic> blablaa: you could if someone was willing to accept it in trade.
527 2011-03-28 05:46:18 <blablaa> midnightmagic, right
528 2011-03-28 05:46:22 <da2ce7> I want bitcoin business cards.
529 2011-03-28 05:46:34 <Kiba> hmm
530 2011-03-28 05:46:47 <blablaa> midnightmagic, but being a commodity isn't enough to make it acceptable
531 2011-03-28 05:46:54 <blablaa> midnightmagic, however "real" a commodity it is
532 2011-03-28 05:46:54 <Kiba> rap song project
533 2011-03-28 05:47:13 <midnightmagic> right, so the cool factor, the crypto, the thought, the network, the people, are all supporting it as a currency by treating it as a currency. i hardly think your crap qualifies, and therefore your analogy is incorrect.
534 2011-03-28 05:47:19 <da2ce7> what Bitcoin nees is for it to become more liquid.
535 2011-03-28 05:47:31 <da2ce7> so people can easly get money in and out of bitcoin
536 2011-03-28 05:47:43 <blablaa> midnightmagic, it isn't an analogy, just a counter-example for a proposition
537 2011-03-28 05:47:49 <da2ce7> that is the main thing that will help bitcoin.
538 2011-03-28 05:47:55 <lfm> blabla the reason it has value is almost irrelevant so long as it has value to someone somewhere it can be treated as a commodity market
539 2011-03-28 05:47:57 <blablaa> midnightmagic, sorry if i've offended u :) don't take it as an analogy, because it is not.
540 2011-03-28 05:48:08 <Blitzboom> da2ce7: well, exchanges are too much of a hassle atm
541 2011-03-28 05:48:36 <blablaa> lfm, i agree
542 2011-03-28 05:48:38 <Blitzboom> coinpal is a step in the right direction though
543 2011-03-28 05:48:46 <midnightmagic> you used the word "too" and are therefore making a comparison. it is an analogy by definition; at the very least the point doesn't follow.
544 2011-03-28 05:48:58 <midnightmagic> no offence taken.
545 2011-03-28 05:49:10 <da2ce7> yeah, my projects involve making p2p extanges easy
546 2011-03-28 05:49:17 <blablaa> midnightmagic, it is an analogy with the hypotetical object that is salabe because it is a commodity
547 2011-03-28 05:49:19 <da2ce7> secure and reliable
548 2011-03-28 05:49:21 <blablaa> midnightmagic, not with bitcoin :)
549 2011-03-28 05:50:09 <da2ce7> what the bitcoin lapto nomad's will use :D :D
550 2011-03-28 05:50:14 <da2ce7> *laptop
551 2011-03-28 05:51:47 <da2ce7> hey dev's my post: https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4983.msg73837#msg73837 what do you think? rational?
552 2011-03-28 05:52:01 <blablaa> midnightmagic, btw, i'm not optimist about bitcoin.. especially because they're finite.. being finite means that at some point their price will become somehow undeterminate, i think..
553 2011-03-28 05:52:24 <blablaa> but on the other hand, being finite is essential for making them interesting, it seems..
554 2011-03-28 05:52:40 <blablaa> *indeterminate
555 2011-03-28 05:52:51 <Blitzboom> why indeterminate?
556 2011-03-28 05:53:05 <Blitzboom> zero demand equals zero value
557 2011-03-28 05:54:12 <blablaa> well, those who have them will consider them valuable.. those who don't will consider them not valuable.. and this conflict becomes more and more sharp as we get close to when they stop being producible..
558 2011-03-28 05:54:48 <blablaa> this theory would predict growing bid/ask spread.. if the opposite happens, then i'm wrong :)
559 2011-03-28 05:55:21 <Blitzboom> interesting idea
560 2011-03-28 05:55:45 <blablaa> we'll see heh :D
561 2011-03-28 05:55:46 <Blitzboom> though you couldve said the same thing about gold in its early days
562 2011-03-28 05:56:07 <blablaa> well, no, gold is always producible
563 2011-03-28 05:56:07 <lfm> gold at any time
564 2011-03-28 05:56:13 <blablaa> and has always been
565 2011-03-28 05:56:20 <Blitzboom> yes, but not unlimited
566 2011-03-28 05:56:39 <Blitzboom> and the "production" rate drops
567 2011-03-28 05:56:49 <blablaa> maybe the analogy could be made with precious arts..
568 2011-03-28 05:56:56 <midnightmagic> and yet..  those that don't have them currently consider them valuable. a better argument would be to draw a line between have-nots who currently want ?, and the point in time when that demand will dry up.
569 2011-03-28 05:57:19 <blablaa> Blitzboom, production rate drops? where u've heard this?
570 2011-03-28 05:57:49 <Blitzboom> hmm, doesnt it?
571 2011-03-28 05:57:50 <blablaa> Blitzboom, it fluctuates..
572 2011-03-28 05:57:51 <lfm> seems like exchange markets are pretty efficient at establishing prices in situations like those
573 2011-03-28 05:58:12 <blablaa> Blitzboom, http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gold_world_production.png
574 2011-03-28 05:58:14 <Blitzboom> its a natural resource, same thing with oil
575 2011-03-28 05:59:02 <lfm> ya people say we're gonna run outa oil but the reality is we just have diminishing returns
576 2011-03-28 05:59:04 <blablaa> oil may be different because it is organic.
577 2011-03-28 05:59:13 <blablaa> it is a fossil..
578 2011-03-28 05:59:19 <Blitzboom> lfm: of course
579 2011-03-28 05:59:38 <lfm> like gold. there is a finite amount in the ground
580 2011-03-28 05:59:41 <Blitzboom> but it means that itll get infinitely more valuable
581 2011-03-28 05:59:51 <Blitzboom> (assuming same demand)
582 2011-03-28 06:00:18 <Blitzboom> i found this graph when i looked: http://www.kinross.com/media/209908/gold-supply.jpg
583 2011-03-28 06:00:30 <Blitzboom> but i dont know about that source
584 2011-03-28 06:00:54 <Blitzboom> seems similar anyway
585 2011-03-28 06:00:55 <blablaa> Blitzboom, there isn't a single "peak"..
586 2011-03-28 06:00:56 <lfm> well not infinite. it can increase in price greatly
587 2011-03-28 06:01:12 <da2ce7> hmm bitcoin will work if we want it to work.
588 2011-03-28 06:01:16 <Blitzboom> yes, because production depends on many factors i assume
589 2011-03-28 06:01:21 <blablaa> Blitzboom, 1940 or 1970 also were "gold peaks".. as 2001
590 2011-03-28 06:01:35 <da2ce7> bitcoin will fail if we don't want it to work.
591 2011-03-28 06:01:57 <da2ce7> the choice is always up to the people who use it... do we want to trade bitcoin, or do we want to trade cash.
592 2011-03-28 06:02:23 <lfm> trade cash for bitcoin
593 2011-03-28 06:02:48 <blablaa> <midnightmagic> and yet..  those that don't have them currently consider them valuable. a better argument would be to draw a line between have-nots who currently want ?, and the point in time when that demand will dry up.
594 2011-03-28 06:03:18 <blablaa> midnightmagic, but u've to admit that the have-not should try to resist having to sell their stuff for bitcoins.
595 2011-03-28 06:03:54 <da2ce7> either the have not's sell stuff for bitcoin, or bitcoin's are worthless
596 2011-03-28 06:04:10 <midnightmagic> not so; since the currency is relatively scarce, selling services and goods for BTC allows you to extract additional profit.
597 2011-03-28 06:04:34 <blablaa> midnightmagic, chicken and egg..
598 2011-03-28 06:04:48 <blablaa> midnightmagic, u've to assume u'll be able to make a profit by buying and selling btc
599 2011-03-28 06:04:49 <midnightmagic> plus, don't neglect the haves' own trading amongst themselves. for example, assume I am a "have" but I would gladly trade by accepting bitcoins for anything i have to trade
600 2011-03-28 06:04:57 <Blitzboom> fuck chicken and eggs, both are great :D
601 2011-03-28 06:04:59 <midnightmagic> not so.
602 2011-03-28 06:05:07 <blablaa> Blitzboom, hah :D
603 2011-03-28 06:05:24 <midnightmagic> all you have to assume is that someone else will also take them in trade.
604 2011-03-28 06:05:34 <blablaa> midnightmagic, the have btc and believe btc may continue to trade them among them, no doubt.
605 2011-03-28 06:05:56 <midnightmagic> but that's not even necessary, since ? ownership is not precluded by the lack of ability to spend them.
606 2011-03-28 06:06:18 <midnightmagic> ownership => desire to own
607 2011-03-28 06:06:24 <nevezen> bitcoin is still the middleman when exchanging for real dollars though..
608 2011-03-28 06:06:47 <midnightmagic> only when involving government-issued currency..
609 2011-03-28 06:07:07 <nevezen> dont think that can be helped
610 2011-03-28 06:07:19 <blablaa> midnightmagic, (i've not understood your last 2 sentences)
611 2011-03-28 06:07:28 <midnightmagic> it can be by people who are willing to keep, rather than exchange, their earned bitcoins.
612 2011-03-28 06:07:52 <midnightmagic> oh. sorry.
613 2011-03-28 06:08:08 <blablaa> i agree with last.. people may be willing to keep them just for protest too
614 2011-03-28 06:08:23 <blablaa> for example to signal that they don't agree with central bank policy
615 2011-03-28 06:08:23 <nevezen> people will ultimately want to spend it on something tangible..
616 2011-03-28 06:08:54 <midnightmagic> it would suck if mostly underground douchebags used ?.. acquiring an unsavoury reputation would slow adoption considerably.
617 2011-03-28 06:09:25 <midnightmagic> nevezen: do you consider services tangible?
618 2011-03-28 06:10:10 <midnightmagic> that is partly why satoshi requested Wikileaks not accept bitcoins.
619 2011-03-28 06:10:38 <midnightmagic> it's too soon yet, when some douche mystery miner can consume >50% of network hashrate.
620 2011-03-28 06:10:40 <nevezen> what really? and where is the guy anyway? ;)
621 2011-03-28 06:10:54 <imdumb> If I have  GPU miner running, say m0mchil's, connected to a pool, and turn on coin-generation in bitcoind, will the work done by bitcoind go towards the pool? I.e. will the two different miners be working together, or will I have a GPU mining away for a pool and a CPU chugging away towards solo mining?
622 2011-03-28 06:11:31 <midnightmagic> imdumb: no, it won't. no, they won't. yes, GPU for pool, CPU solo mining.
623 2011-03-28 06:11:40 <nevezen> I dont much care for that mystery miner drama..
624 2011-03-28 06:11:41 <midnightmagic> don't CPU mine.
625 2011-03-28 06:12:14 <Keefe> it can slow down the gpu miner a bit, and cpus use more power than it's worth
626 2011-03-28 06:12:45 <imdumb> midnightmagic: It would if I specified the pool's address and u:p information to bitcond when I enabled minig, perhaps?
627 2011-03-28 06:12:45 <midnightmagic> nevezen: for me, it was an annoying reminder that adoption is very slowly growing.
628 2011-03-28 06:13:17 <nevezen> had gpu mining not been created, I think people would be satisfied for mining via cpu
629 2011-03-28 06:13:24 <midnightmagic> imdumb: not as far as i can tell.
630 2011-03-28 06:13:36 <[Tycho]> imdumb, CPU mining in official client is inefficient. Well, any CPU mining is inefficient now :)
631 2011-03-28 06:13:40 <Keefe> nevezen: if it weren't for gpu mining, difficulty would be far lower
632 2011-03-28 06:13:49 <nevezen> definitely
633 2011-03-28 06:13:55 <imdumb> [Tycho]: of course.  I'm just wondering if it's possible to get them working together.
634 2011-03-28 06:13:59 <imdumb> *currently
635 2011-03-28 06:14:23 <Keefe> imdumb: you should check out a cpu miner like ufasoft's if you really want to use the cpu also
636 2011-03-28 06:14:34 <midnightmagic> imdumb: if you really want to cpu mine, use "cpuminer" from..  jgarzik i think.
637 2011-03-28 06:14:39 <Keefe> or i hear jgarzik's is good too
638 2011-03-28 06:15:36 <imdumb> Well, I don't want to use a CPU miner.  I'm just wondering if it's currently possible to have them both chugging away for the same goal (e.g. pool).
639 2011-03-28 06:16:05 <nevezen> dont think the bitcoin creator intended for mining to seriously get out of hand..
640 2011-03-28 06:16:10 <nevezen> eg gpu mining
641 2011-03-28 06:16:55 <imdumb> nevezen: GPU mining was the first thing I thought of when I learned about how BTC worked.
642 2011-03-28 06:17:12 <nevezen> me too
643 2011-03-28 06:17:54 <imdumb> "Finally! A monetary excuse to read all the gpgpu.org PDFs I've downloaded!"
644 2011-03-28 06:18:38 <nevezen> but when gpu mining was introduced, the difficulty level skyrocketed
645 2011-03-28 06:19:00 <imdumb> I bet.  I bet those first gpu miners made a fortune.
646 2011-03-28 06:19:08 <imdumb> brb
647 2011-03-28 06:19:36 <nevezen> they made a fortune in btc
648 2011-03-28 06:19:54 <lfm> btc was 6 cents then
649 2011-03-28 06:19:54 <nevezen> then eventually traded them for real cash
650 2011-03-28 06:19:55 <grbgout> Indeed, but if they save it then they should do well, no?
651 2011-03-28 06:20:11 <u2time> mtgox down again?
652 2011-03-28 06:20:22 <MagicalTux> u2time, fix your hosts file
653 2011-03-28 06:20:26 <nevezen> I dont think so
654 2011-03-28 06:20:34 <MagicalTux> now we have real dns
655 2011-03-28 06:20:38 <u2time> lol
656 2011-03-28 06:20:39 <MagicalTux> not theplanet.com crap dns
657 2011-03-28 06:20:47 <u2time> nice to hear
658 2011-03-28 06:20:49 <lfm> mtgox is fine here
659 2011-03-28 06:21:01 <MagicalTux> just make sure to not have leftovers in your hosts file
660 2011-03-28 06:21:05 <u2time> yep
661 2011-03-28 06:21:11 <u2time> your old dns was broke
662 2011-03-28 06:21:14 <grbgout> purpleposeidon: still here? 03:52:24 requested cloak, 04:12:40 <+kloeri> grbgout: cloaked
663 2011-03-28 06:21:20 <MagicalTux> yep, old dns was theplanet.com
664 2011-03-28 06:21:44 <nevezen> with the influx of new users whom are constantly frustrated with the high difficulty level, I think bitcoins popularity just centers around people with "good" hardware..
665 2011-03-28 06:22:10 <grbgout> nevezen: true.
666 2011-03-28 06:22:40 <nevezen> only popular for those with the power to compete witht the rising difficulty
667 2011-03-28 06:22:51 <grbgout> Punching in the hash speeds I got with my CPU made me switch to gpu mining immediately.
668 2011-03-28 06:22:56 <nevezen> cpu users are left out..
669 2011-03-28 06:23:09 <grbgout> but that's what pools alleviate, no?
670 2011-03-28 06:23:34 <grbgout> Even with my GPU I can't even begin to compete without a pool.  I only get about 21Mh/s
671 2011-03-28 06:23:36 <midnightmagic> i am certain satoshi was well aware of GPU when he released his first software.
672 2011-03-28 06:23:37 <lfm> nevezen: well 5770 gpus are still quite viable and only about $100-$120
673 2011-03-28 06:23:44 <grbgout> midnightmagic: i agree.
674 2011-03-28 06:24:05 <nevezen> even if you're adamant about copu mining within a pool, you're still getting close to nothing in return..
675 2011-03-28 06:25:02 <midnightmagic> additionally, new users expecting to mine and get -- presto -- new bitcoins as though it were easy and cheap have been misled or have bizarre expectations.
676 2011-03-28 06:25:28 <grbgout> what about a CPU only pool?  I wouldn't be surprised if we see one, especially if nefarious means are used to unwittingly turn people's machines into miners (javascript, html5, botnets, etc).
677 2011-03-28 06:25:39 <nevezen> what I'm saying, mmagic, that might just be true had it not been for gpu mining :)
678 2011-03-28 06:26:13 <midnightmagic> satoshi, the website, and everywhere else has always, always said that the best way to make bitcoins is participate in the economy with services and/or goods.
679 2011-03-28 06:26:25 <grbgout> nevezen: yeah.  I would point out, though, that statement goes without saying.  I mean, that's obvious.
680 2011-03-28 06:26:54 <midnightmagic> be a primary manufacturer of something of worth, and sell your stuff for bitcoins. you can charge enormous premiums and you usefully contribute to the stability and security of the currency.
681 2011-03-28 06:27:20 <lfm> na, people would still be upset that an expensive quad is better than there cheap netbook
682 2011-03-28 06:28:24 <nevezen> yes, for purposes other than mining :)
683 2011-03-28 06:28:28 <grbgout> lfm: I think a lower percentage of people would be upset, though.  A smaller subset of netbook owners would feel that way.  I may be being optimistic, but I think in that case even laymen understand that netbooks are computationally weak.
684 2011-03-28 06:28:32 <midnightmagic> so, the people who are turning away, disappointed, have neither 1) the capacity to set up economical mining, 2) the inclination and/or ability to be primary producers, or even 3) the willingness to buy bitcoins to use them. who wants people like that supporting a currency?!
685 2011-03-28 06:29:34 <grbgout> sleep well
686 2011-03-28 06:29:46 <nevezen> you gotta' realize though, an average person starting out in gpu mining will probably have only one objective
687 2011-03-28 06:29:51 <midnightmagic> heck, even setting up a retail storefront would allow you to eke out a ? profit, but it would be less.
688 2011-03-28 06:30:03 <nevezen> and that is, $ return
689 2011-03-28 06:30:29 <lfm> someone will be upset no matter what, maybe not the same people but the one who are upset can dominate a conversation
690 2011-03-28 06:30:31 <nevezen> dont think anyone cares much about the technicalities
691 2011-03-28 06:31:04 <grbgout> I'm an example of such a person, to a degree.
692 2011-03-28 06:31:16 <midnightmagic> nevezen: yeah, contibuting to the huge high sell-heavy buyer's market on mtgox. :)
693 2011-03-28 06:32:16 <nevezen> I'm just glad my 8800GT still was worth it
694 2011-03-28 06:32:23 <grbgout> I believe I got involved on the 24th, and my primary objective /is/ to obtain bitcoins, but I am also concerned with the technicalities.  Indeed, my interest in getting btc is so that I can see what I can get with them in the markets.  I also so great potential with btc, and hope to contribute in other ways: software development, accepting btc for services rendered, etc.
695 2011-03-28 06:32:39 <nevezen> it may not mine well bugt it certainly plays crysis 2 well :)
696 2011-03-28 06:32:51 <grbgout> :)
697 2011-03-28 06:33:12 <grbgout> s/also so/also see/
698 2011-03-28 06:33:28 <nevezen> I couldnt believe it at first.. but I spent almost 8 hours playing it today..
699 2011-03-28 06:33:45 <grbgout> hah.  I've never played.  FirstPS?
700 2011-03-28 06:55:04 <grbgout> Does the gribble bot only respond to commands sent to the channel?
701 2011-03-28 06:55:17 <sipa> no
702 2011-03-28 06:55:23 <sipa> oh wait, not sure
703 2011-03-28 06:55:35 <grbgout> It responded to help in a query, but so far that's all.
704 2011-03-28 06:55:40 <grbgout> Checking the sf page as we speak.
705 2011-03-28 07:24:53 <lfm> grbgout: gribble also responds to /msg gribble
706 2011-03-28 07:25:43 <Diablo-D3> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110325102008.htm
707 2011-03-28 07:25:52 <grbgout> lfm: query == msg, but I didn't receive any replies from commands other than 'help' --- seeing that it just pinged out, however, might explain that.
708 2011-03-28 07:26:08 <lfm> grbgout: gribble also responds to /msg gribble bc,stats
709 2011-03-28 07:26:24 <grbgout> lfm: that was one of the things I tried :)
710 2011-03-28 07:26:37 <BlueMatt> he responds fine to me
711 2011-03-28 07:26:48 <grbgout> BlueMatt: yeah, he responded to me this time.
712 2011-03-28 07:27:01 <lfm> grbgout: works for me, dont put in the ;;
713 2011-03-28 07:27:43 <BlueMatt> works with the ;; too
714 2011-03-28 07:27:44 <grbgout> lfm: yeah, I'm seeing that's what I tried for bc,stats.  But I also tried facts by itself, which didn't garner any response: this time, however, it reports it as an erroneous command.
715 2011-03-28 07:27:58 <grbgout> like I said, the ping-out explains it.
716 2011-03-28 07:28:46 <grbgout> Diablo-D3: very interesting, thanks for sharing.
717 2011-03-28 07:33:17 <grbgout> lfm: is gribble your bot?
718 2011-03-28 07:34:14 <BlueMatt> its nanotube's
719 2011-03-28 07:34:40 <grbgout> thanks
720 2011-03-28 07:40:40 <ersi> ;;bc,gen 4906
721 2011-03-28 07:40:43 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 4906 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 0.0715377394346 BTC per day and 0.00298073914311 BTC per hour.
722 2011-03-28 07:44:59 <ersi> Guess it's pretty worthless solo-mining with that output
723 2011-03-28 07:45:54 <sipa> quite
724 2011-03-28 07:46:03 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 4906
725 2011-03-28 07:46:05 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4906 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 1 year, 47 weeks, 4 days, 22 hours, 21 minutes, and 46 seconds
726 2011-03-28 07:46:10 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 4906 7d
727 2011-03-28 07:46:11 <gribble> 0.00996529758247
728 2011-03-28 07:46:18 <sipa> 1% chance for a block, every week
729 2011-03-28 07:49:06 <blablaa> a friend told me that btc will go around $1 within days.. is it true?
730 2011-03-28 07:49:12 <blablaa> according to some technical analysis..
731 2011-03-28 07:54:20 <grbgout> blablaa: could be.  The last time I checked, 1 btc was roughly worth $0.84
732 2011-03-28 07:54:32 <grbgout> which was on friday or saturday.
733 2011-03-28 07:55:24 <blablaa> grbgout, hmm i see..
734 2011-03-28 07:55:25 <grbgout> is the information from bc,gen based on solo mining?
735 2011-03-28 07:55:27 <blablaa> mgot something..
736 2011-03-28 07:56:50 <grbgout> blablaa: mtgox?
737 2011-03-28 07:57:07 <blablaa> oh yes
738 2011-03-28 07:57:19 <grbgout> "#bitcoin-market (Live streaming quotes from MtGox and BCM)" from http://www.bitcoin.org/contact
739 2011-03-28 08:12:08 <ersi> Would pool-mining with 5-10kHps yeild anything?
740 2011-03-28 08:12:22 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 10000
741 2011-03-28 08:12:23 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 10000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 0.145816835374 BTC per day and 0.00607570147393 BTC per hour.
742 2011-03-28 08:12:29 <sipa> ^^ that much
743 2011-03-28 08:12:54 <grbgout> sipa: gribble's results are for pooled mining?  I thought solo...
744 2011-03-28 08:13:15 <grbgout> Which pool does gribble represent?
745 2011-03-28 08:13:44 <Blitzboom> he represents a perfect pool with 0% fee and 0% stale blocks
746 2011-03-28 08:13:54 <Blitzboom> and 0% variance
747 2011-03-28 08:14:15 <xelister> Chuck Norris administrates that
748 2011-03-28 08:14:32 <grbgout> what do you mean by variance?
749 2011-03-28 08:14:57 <Blitzboom> pool revenue varies
750 2011-03-28 08:15:09 <Blitzboom> because luck is involved, too, when finding a block
751 2011-03-28 08:15:16 <Blitzboom> your luck is just minimized
752 2011-03-28 08:15:57 <grbgout> That's very interesting, then.  Based on my calculations, I'm earning 0.020428455437432946 per hour with the pool I'm using.  With the khash's I supplied to gribble, it suggests I should be seeing 0.01290235965 per hour.
753 2011-03-28 08:16:37 <Blitzboom> hm
754 2011-03-28 08:16:50 <sipa> variance doesn't matter
755 2011-03-28 08:16:56 <grbgout> I'm probably doing my math wrong.
756 2011-03-28 08:16:57 <sipa> stale blocks and fees do
757 2011-03-28 08:17:06 <sipa> it's just your average gain from mining
758 2011-03-28 08:17:17 <grbgout> oh, mine is also just an estimate, of course. Not actual, in my account.
759 2011-03-28 08:17:37 <sipa> so subtract fees + a few % at most lost through stale blocks, and you get the result for pooled mining
760 2011-03-28 08:20:03 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * r10e39099c280 intersango/cron/depos.php: generates queries for depositing.
761 2011-03-28 08:22:00 <grbgout> My actual btc per hour is 0.0091290354042719204, but this is because I upped my payout to 1btc rather than 0.01
762 2011-03-28 08:22:25 <grbgout> meaning actual btc sent to my account, so this too is only an estimate :)
763 2011-03-28 08:23:11 <grbgout> [Tycho]: does the 3% fee apply to the pay-per-share payment method as well, or only proportional?
764 2011-03-28 08:26:23 <sirius-m> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5052 Bitcoin.org server admins wanted
765 2011-03-28 08:32:09 <da2ce7> sirius-m good! the forum has felt a bit sluggish, not as snappy when we had 100 posts a day.
766 2011-03-28 08:32:22 <da2ce7> how much bandwith do you go throogh each day?
767 2011-03-28 08:33:36 <gjs278> has anyone here had any luck overclocking an asus 5870 to a higher voltage in linux? I tried using rbe but the gpu / voltage registers were empty for me so I either need a program that can overvolt past 1.2v in linux or a working bios with 1.35v set as the max
768 2011-03-28 08:33:37 <grbgout> Is that a request for volunteers, or more a job-like posting?
769 2011-03-28 08:36:30 <Diablo-D3> I have found a troll on the internet
770 2011-03-28 08:36:34 <Diablo-D3> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giAzopSy-g0
771 2011-03-28 08:37:53 <sirius-m> da2ce7: haven't checked in a while, but I think around 1-5 GB / day
772 2011-03-28 08:38:22 <sirius-m> grbgout: volunteer work, bitcoin enthusiasm required :)
773 2011-03-28 08:38:26 <grbgout> :)
774 2011-03-28 08:39:02 <grbgout> what kind of maintenance work might you need?  Although I /should/ be an excellent server admin, I'm not.
775 2011-03-28 08:39:53 <sirius-m> just making sure everything keeps running, keeping the software updated
776 2011-03-28 08:39:55 <grbgout> Diablo-D3: that guy's laugh is awesome.
777 2011-03-28 08:41:30 <grbgout> sirius-m: I barely do that with my machines >_>
778 2011-03-28 08:41:46 <grbgout> I mean they run, but updating... ^_^
779 2011-03-28 08:42:45 <grbgout> Diablo-D3: do you name him troll because the 'beat' (drum) begins before he ever touches anything?
780 2011-03-28 08:43:10 <Diablo-D3> I call him a troll because its big setup
781 2011-03-28 08:43:18 <Diablo-D3> he fronts for a real artist
782 2011-03-28 08:43:26 <grbgout> gotchya
783 2011-03-28 08:43:32 <grbgout> his dental is excellent though, hah.
784 2011-03-28 08:44:18 <blablaa> gjs278, what will happen when coins can no longer be mined?
785 2011-03-28 08:44:22 <da2ce7> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/
786 2011-03-28 08:44:35 <blablaa> gjs278, i think people working on production will get unemployed? :(
787 2011-03-28 08:44:40 <gjs278> lol
788 2011-03-28 08:44:41 <da2ce7> yay we have a Child Board!
789 2011-03-28 08:45:02 <gjs278> I can't imagine my official job being bitcoin miner
790 2011-03-28 08:45:07 <blablaa> hehe
791 2011-03-28 08:45:13 <blablaa> but u like it :) it's hobby!
792 2011-03-28 08:45:44 <da2ce7> but, we should have a 'chinese' sub forum also
793 2011-03-28 08:46:20 <Blitzboom> hahaha, what the hell is child boards?
794 2011-03-28 08:46:25 <Blitzboom> oh, nvm
795 2011-03-28 08:46:50 <Blitzboom> we should seperate the marketplace in goods/services etc.
796 2011-03-28 08:46:57 <Blitzboom> or buy/sell
797 2011-03-28 08:47:13 <Blitzboom> and a job subforum
798 2011-03-28 08:47:57 <da2ce7> sirius-m while you are in the mood for making child board's there should be a 'mining pools' one also.
799 2011-03-28 08:48:09 <ArtForz> ... why?
800 2011-03-28 08:49:09 <da2ce7> casue mining is a large topic, maybe moving the pool issuesannouncements into a child board would clean it up a bit.
801 2011-03-28 08:49:46 <ArtForz> afaict theres only like 6 pool threads in mining
802 2011-03-28 08:50:48 <da2ce7> ArtForz, would make it easyer for people to find pool related stuff also
803 2011-03-28 08:50:59 <ArtForz> well, thats true
804 2011-03-28 09:36:25 <joepie91> http://i.imgur.com/HttBQ.png
805 2011-03-28 09:38:19 <BurtyB> heh
806 2011-03-28 10:01:54 <xelister> hehe joepie91
807 2011-03-28 10:02:07 <joepie91> :P
808 2011-03-28 10:02:30 <xelister> "Australian law enforcement has flagged virtual worlds as a 'growing area of interest' in its fight against money laundering and cybercrime. Police are reportedly investigating unnamed virtual worlds, as well as online money transfer services such as e-gold and Hawala/Hundi."
809 2011-03-28 10:04:19 <xelister> It is possible to run Bitcoin through Freenet. There's even a project underway to do that.
810 2011-03-28 10:04:28 <xelister> by genjix (959457) writes: on Monday March 28, @06:34AM (#35636786)
811 2011-03-28 10:04:29 <xelister> It is possible to run Bitcoin through Freenet. There's even a project underway to do that.
812 2011-03-28 10:04:30 <xelister> :D
813 2011-03-28 10:04:32 <xelister> da2ce7: sen? =)
814 2011-03-28 10:04:39 <xelister> seen
815 2011-03-28 10:05:32 <da2ce7> yep. scary
816 2011-03-28 10:05:44 <da2ce7> but we are way under the 10K limit
817 2011-03-28 10:05:56 <Blitzboom> 10k what?
818 2011-03-28 10:06:26 <da2ce7> don't need to report transactions under 10K AUD
819 2011-03-28 10:07:37 <xelister> da2ce7: in usfaggistan?
820 2011-03-28 10:07:46 <xelister> wait, AUD
821 2011-03-28 10:19:21 <molecular> anyone else have problems accessing mtgox?
822 2011-03-28 10:19:42 <lfm> dns change
823 2011-03-28 10:19:52 <molecular> ah, that might explain it
824 2011-03-28 10:20:35 <molecular> for some reason I can see http://mtgox.com now, but https://mtgox.com/users/login gives connection refused
825 2011-03-28 10:21:21 <lfm> try www.
826 2011-03-28 10:22:00 <molecular> nope. http works, but not https
827 2011-03-28 10:22:10 <molecular> even with www
828 2011-03-28 10:22:30 <lfm> ya you gotta flash cache somehow
829 2011-03-28 10:23:09 <molecular> yeah, trying
830 2011-03-28 10:23:41 <lfm> try 69.64.54.59
831 2011-03-28 10:24:23 <molecular> https://69.64.54.59/users/login -> The requested URL /users/login was not found on this server.
832 2011-03-28 10:25:01 <molecular> www.mtgox.com resolved to 69.64.54.59
833 2011-03-28 10:25:43 <lfm> try 69.64.54.59
834 2011-03-28 10:25:57 <lfm> browser cache?
835 2011-03-28 10:26:16 <molecular> I put that in there couple weeks ago
836 2011-03-28 10:26:23 <lfm> a ha
837 2011-03-28 10:26:23 <molecular> sorry to have bugged around
838 2011-03-28 10:28:16 <weissbier> hi
839 2011-03-28 10:28:19 <ersi> lol
840 2011-03-28 10:28:27 <genjix> da2ce7: hey
841 2011-03-28 10:28:37 <ersi> lfm: Well, using HTTP or HTTPS doesn't have anything with DNS. It's just different ports.
842 2011-03-28 10:28:38 <da2ce7> gday
843 2011-03-28 10:28:45 <weissbier> sirius-m, you're here?
844 2011-03-28 10:28:51 <genjix> did you refresh your profile da2ce7 ?
845 2011-03-28 10:29:07 <da2ce7> yeah... many times.
846 2011-03-28 10:29:14 <genjix> ok
847 2011-03-28 10:29:21 <da2ce7> You have 0 BTC.
848 2011-03-28 10:30:26 <sirius-m> weissbier: yes
849 2011-03-28 10:30:34 <weissbier> can i query you? :D
850 2011-03-28 10:31:11 <genjix> ok, because it shows up under your balance but hasn't been added to the authorisation queue yet
851 2011-03-28 10:31:19 <genjix> i will check this out.
852 2011-03-28 10:31:38 <weissbier> it's regarding helping out& i can provide little bit hosting "power"
853 2011-03-28 10:31:43 <da2ce7> cool
854 2011-03-28 10:32:28 <genjix> sorry da2ce7 :p but im a little paranoid so i built in several layers of security checks
855 2011-03-28 10:32:51 <da2ce7> ok, that is fine.
856 2011-03-28 10:32:53 <genjix> and it's stopped at one.
857 2011-03-28 10:33:33 <genjix> nah it's fine.
858 2011-03-28 10:37:57 <mesh> I'm having problems compiling bitcoin: http://paste.ubuntu.com/586439/, is there someone that knows the problem?
859 2011-03-28 10:39:34 <sirius-m> weissbier: of course
860 2011-03-28 10:39:39 <lfm> mesh what version of wxwidgets do you have?
861 2011-03-28 10:40:34 <mesh> lfm: 2.8
862 2011-03-28 10:40:55 <lfm> check the build file for the correct version
863 2011-03-28 10:41:42 <mesh> lfm: ok, thanks
864 2011-03-28 10:42:20 <lfm> Don't try 2.8, it won't work.
865 2011-03-28 10:42:23 <mmarker> Ok, I think I fixed the cpuminer's yasm check. So it should work for everyone...
866 2011-03-28 10:52:44 <BurtyB> genjix re britcoin do you need to login before it gives an idea of rates?
867 2011-03-28 10:55:14 <genjix> da2ce7: try now.
868 2011-03-28 10:55:25 <genjix> BurtyB: no but there's no orders yet since it was opened yesterday.
869 2011-03-28 10:56:22 <BurtyB> genjix ah ok
870 2011-03-28 10:58:07 <genjix> da2ce7: should show up under your profile when you refresh now.
871 2011-03-28 10:58:23 <da2ce7> yep I have the BTC in my account now :)
872 2011-03-28 10:58:26 <da2ce7> good work,.
873 2011-03-28 10:58:59 <genjix> ok i will authorise that for you :p
874 2011-03-28 11:00:03 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * r10e9623ec3e4 intersango/util.php: dumb undocumented GMP behaviour! dumb!
875 2011-03-28 11:00:14 <genjix> heh
876 2011-03-28 11:09:49 <grbgout> Is there a way to see how much money each address of an account has accrued without querying the transactions list?
877 2011-03-28 11:10:46 <grbgout> by money I meant BTC.
878 2011-03-28 11:11:09 <Blitzboom> https://twitter.com/#!/brucewagner/status/52347389767467008
879 2011-03-28 11:11:12 <Blitzboom> time to BUY!
880 2011-03-28 11:11:42 <doublec> grbgout: use the rpc function getreceivedbyaddress
881 2011-03-28 11:11:50 <grbgout> doublec: thanks.