1 2011-04-06 00:03:31 <theymos> Bitcoin has enough info to display "average number of hashes for an attacker to reverse" for each transaction, and even "percentage of current network hash/s to reverse". That'd really help people understand confirmations.
  2 2011-04-06 00:16:16 <[Tycho]> npouillard, yes, i answered this in my forum thread today.
  3 2011-04-06 00:34:32 <Keefe> <@theymos> Bitcoin has enough info to display "average number of hashes for an attacker to reverse" for each transaction
  4 2011-04-06 00:34:46 <Keefe> would be neat if it showed the value of those hashes
  5 2011-04-06 00:35:32 <Keefe> for example, if it said that about 100 BTC worth of hashing would be required to have a 50% chance of reversing
  6 2011-04-06 00:41:35 <gasteve> I recall that the client embeds knowledge of certain blocks when new versions are released...I wonder if that mechanism could be formalized in some way...essentially, because everyone trusts the client distro, they are giving it a supervote regarding such hard coded blocks...I wonder if every N number of blocks, the network could somehow agree on some past block being authoritative and making it impossible for it to be reversed (even if a longer
  7 2011-04-06 00:41:36 <gasteve> eclipsing that block were to be encountered)...if done say once per week on avg, people could be highly confident in any transactions older than 1 week are firmly embedded in the block chain
  8 2011-04-06 00:44:53 <gasteve> I guess in practice that would be equivalent to all clients refusing to accept a long block chain if that chain alters an blocks older than say a week in the past
  9 2011-04-06 00:45:06 <gasteve> *longer block chain
 10 2011-04-06 00:46:51 <davex__> ;;bc,stats
 11 2011-04-06 00:46:54 <gribble> Current Blocks: 116958 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1985 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 2 days, 16 hours, 18 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 70333.28027511
 12 2011-04-06 01:09:24 <echelon> what's up with this transaction http://blockexplorer.com/tx/d710b71184fee6f1af04eded13fdef31c6e1c0849207ed010b886b7f473bbc51#o0
 13 2011-04-06 01:09:36 <echelon> been about an hour
 14 2011-04-06 01:14:28 <gasteve> what do you mean by what's up with it?
 15 2011-04-06 01:14:32 <Keefe> echelon: what are you saying about it?
 16 2011-04-06 01:14:49 <echelon> why isn't it received yet
 17 2011-04-06 01:14:53 <Keefe> it is
 18 2011-04-06 01:14:55 <gasteve> it's in a block
 19 2011-04-06 01:15:05 <Keefe> if you don't see it, it's cause you don't have the latest blocks
 20 2011-04-06 01:15:16 <Keefe> it has 9 confirms
 21 2011-04-06 01:15:25 <Keefe> no, 10
 22 2011-04-06 01:16:02 <echelon> wait a minute
 23 2011-04-06 01:16:04 <echelon> uh
 24 2011-04-06 01:55:32 <robblesz> I get failed connections while using JSON-RPC against my local instance of bitcoind seemingly at random, and very frequently. Almost 10% of my requests don't go through. Any one know what's going on?
 25 2011-04-06 01:56:35 <robblesz> getinfo() and every other method I've tried have the same problem
 26 2011-04-06 01:57:00 <gjs278> it took me so long to install this accelero holy crap
 27 2011-04-06 01:57:07 <gjs278> but now my room isnt a vacuum cleaner
 28 2011-04-06 02:06:25 <Keefe> gjs278: 5970?
 29 2011-04-06 02:06:36 <gjs278> 5870
 30 2011-04-06 02:06:49 <gjs278> not a reference card... oh god the pain I've gone through to get this installed
 31 2011-04-06 02:07:48 <retinal> non-reference; MSI?
 32 2011-04-06 02:07:55 <retinal> or Gigabyte?
 33 2011-04-06 02:08:19 <retinal> those are the only ones I can think of the top of my head, and the former overclocks like a beast :>
 34 2011-04-06 02:08:35 <retinal> the latter on the other hand, gave me comical performance and died within three weeks
 35 2011-04-06 02:08:38 <retinal> (??????)
 36 2011-04-06 02:11:08 <robblesz> Sheesh, JSON-RPC is almost totally unusable here. Makes me wonder how the hell others manage their wallets programatically
 37 2011-04-06 02:11:47 <CFSworks> robblesz, try going to the HTTP URL in a browser and see if it gives you an error.
 38 2011-04-06 02:11:48 <robblesz> Maybe fopen() is broken. I'll try curl
 39 2011-04-06 02:12:46 <robblesz> CFSworks: the errors are very hard to catch. a millisecond after I get an error, it might work fine
 40 2011-04-06 02:13:57 <robblesz> I will try that, though
 41 2011-04-06 02:13:59 <CFSworks> Ah, it's sporadic. Sorry, didn't see that... How is the connection failing? Rejected, or timing out...?
 42 2011-04-06 02:14:39 <robblesz> fopen(http://...@127.0.0.1:8339/) [function.fopen]: failed to open stream: HTTP request failed!
 43 2011-04-06 02:14:59 <robblesz> it returns very quickly, so it doesn't feel like a timeout
 44 2011-04-06 02:22:11 <robblesz> There are no problems when I send a GET request to http://user:pass@127.0.0.1:8339/ in my browser, but then again that's not a valid JSON-RPC request and exercises a different code path
 45 2011-04-06 02:22:25 <CFSworks> Looking up "HTTP request failed!" is kind of unhelpful, unfortunately... What if you try using bitcoind's builtin client?
 46 2011-04-06 02:22:51 <robblesz> Do you mean with the CLI?
 47 2011-04-06 02:22:56 <CFSworks> Yeah.
 48 2011-04-06 02:23:06 <robblesz> Will do
 49 2011-04-06 02:24:41 <da2ce7> ;;seen glassresistor
 50 2011-04-06 02:24:43 <gribble> glassresistor was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 3 days, 10 hours, 23 minutes, and 1 second ago: <glassresistor> da2ce7: tcatm: afternoon
 51 2011-04-06 02:25:51 <gjs278> retinal it's the asus eah5870
 52 2011-04-06 02:26:01 <gjs278> they decided to make a design "better" than reference
 53 2011-04-06 02:26:37 <robblesz> CFSworks: I hammered on the CLI bitcoind interface and that seems to be working just fine
 54 2011-04-06 02:26:38 <retinal> gjs278: interesting choice
 55 2011-04-06 02:26:44 <retinal> the single fan still throws me off
 56 2011-04-06 02:26:48 <gjs278> it actually didn't get too hot
 57 2011-04-06 02:26:50 <gjs278> just insanely loud
 58 2011-04-06 02:27:14 <CFSworks> robblesz, I guess that means it's an issue with fopen or PHP... Sadly I'm not a PHP expert.
 59 2011-04-06 02:27:32 <robblesz> Could be, yeah. Thanks
 60 2011-04-06 02:28:16 <luke-jr> wireshark it and pastebin the request+reply
 61 2011-04-06 02:28:46 <robblesz> luke-jr: good idea, I will try that
 62 2011-04-06 02:31:54 <robblesz> Ah curses, windows doesn't have a loopback interface
 63 2011-04-06 02:32:47 <CFSworks> robblesz, you know my pain when trying to debug networking applications. :(
 64 2011-04-06 02:34:46 <gasteve> well, I *finally* got bitcoind compiling with autotools
 65 2011-04-06 02:35:21 <gasteve> (with refactored sources)
 66 2011-04-06 02:35:44 <gasteve> off to bed...need to add support for bitcoin to the autotools based build
 67 2011-04-06 02:35:49 <gasteve> (tomorrow)
 68 2011-04-06 02:37:52 <robblesz> Okay, I got a dump. Let's see if I can find the relevant packets...
 69 2011-04-06 02:56:45 <robblesz> Huh, this might be a PHP problem. Requests that fail with fopen() look normal in Wireshark
 70 2011-04-06 03:00:28 <robblesz> Probably doesn't help that I'm developing on Windows
 71 2011-04-06 03:00:40 <aeMaeth> that never helps anyone
 72 2011-04-06 03:06:32 <luke-jr> robblesz: no server should run on Windows anyway
 73 2011-04-06 03:06:56 <CFSworks> luke-jr: I wrote my first server in Windows.
 74 2011-04-06 03:07:05 <CFSworks> VB6 HTTP server. Could only handle one open connection at a time.
 75 2011-04-06 03:07:18 <luke-jr> CFSworks: point made?
 76 2011-04-06 03:07:23 <CFSworks> Yes, it was very prone to DoS because of it, but I never used it in production.
 77 2011-04-06 03:08:06 <jgarzik> gasteve: using my autotools branch?
 78 2011-04-06 03:08:18 <jgarzik> gasteve: because I already did all that work...
 79 2011-04-06 03:08:42 <CFSworks> Wasn't exactly trying to make a point, but "Windows Server" makes about as much sense as "DOS for render farms"
 80 2011-04-06 03:09:11 <jgarzik> DOS is still used on factory floors.  The hard drives in your computer have most likely touched DOS at some point in their early lives.
 81 2011-04-06 03:09:25 <jgarzik> no matter how recent your hard drive manufacture date
 82 2011-04-06 03:10:05 <CFSworks> jgarzik, are there DOS remnants on there when it comes out of the box or do they erase it before shipping it?
 83 2011-04-06 03:10:29 <jgarzik> DOS runs on the controllers that are used in the factory
 84 2011-04-06 03:10:41 <jgarzik> calibration, validation, ...
 85 2011-04-06 03:10:46 <CFSworks> Actually, has anyone looked at a brand-new HDD with a hex editor? What do they put on it when they ship?
 86 2011-04-06 03:11:05 <CFSworks> I'm guessing either 00 00 00 00 ... or FF FF FF FF ... but it would be neat to know for sure. :)
 87 2011-04-06 03:11:24 <robblesz> My 2TB was full of 0s
 88 2011-04-06 03:12:04 <CFSworks> Save for the MBR or do they zero that as well?
 89 2011-04-06 03:12:22 <robblesz> I don't remember, to be honest
 90 2011-04-06 03:12:36 <robblesz> I just checked to see if it had been used for storage before
 91 2011-04-06 03:13:49 <CFSworks> I probably wouldn't remember, either... Would just be neat to know what's expected on an HDD after shredding it to sell, I guess.
 92 2011-04-06 03:14:21 <CFSworks> I'd probably end up zeroing it and then putting a blank MBR on there with fdisk anyway.
 93 2011-04-06 04:11:26 <nathan7> grbgout: Not enough CPU/GPU power, except on a windows machine in Amsterdam I semi-own.
 94 2011-04-06 04:11:38 <nathan7> grbgout: I need to find a way to run the miner as a service
 95 2011-04-06 04:52:25 <retinal> spill the beans, you!
 96 2011-04-06 04:53:06 <kiba> I am crowdsourcing for a RTS game
 97 2011-04-06 05:22:48 <AAA_awright> kiba: You know you can always ask me
 98 2011-04-06 05:24:16 <kiba> AAA_awright: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5465.0
 99 2011-04-06 05:25:44 <AAA_awright> kiba: How much to replace that ad
100 2011-04-06 05:25:52 <kiba> what?
101 2011-04-06 05:25:58 <AAA_awright> In your footer
102 2011-04-06 05:26:05 <kiba> 25 BTC
103 2011-04-06 05:26:35 <AAA_awright> Isn't there a going rate, per month?
104 2011-04-06 05:27:26 <AAA_awright> kiba: Have you read A New Kind of Science?
105 2011-04-06 05:27:40 <CFSworks> Wolfram's?
106 2011-04-06 05:27:50 <AAA_awright> The squares that react to rules reminds me of that
107 2011-04-06 05:27:56 <kiba> 25 BTC per month
108 2011-04-06 05:27:59 <kiba> that's 1 BTC a day
109 2011-04-06 05:33:18 <AAA_awright> idk if you would be able to find enough players that way you would have to figure out the logistics of hybrid non-betting + betting players
110 2011-04-06 05:35:12 <AAA_awright> kiba: I'll take the "New Kind of Science" question as "No"?
111 2011-04-06 05:35:46 <kiba> um.
112 2011-04-06 05:35:52 <kiba> no
113 2011-04-06 05:37:26 <AAA_awright> kiba: And the wolf game? Did Rabbit Doubt officially die?
114 2011-04-06 05:40:09 <kiba> I guess so
115 2011-04-06 05:40:37 <kiba> we got lot of ideas, little execution
116 2011-04-06 05:41:04 <AAA_awright> The core mechanic wasn't fully worked out
117 2011-04-06 05:41:20 <AAA_awright> Plus Node.js has changed quite a bit since then
118 2011-04-06 05:58:52 <molecular> kiba, your cellular automaton game will run on linux, I assume?
119 2011-04-06 06:02:02 <kiba> umm
120 2011-04-06 06:02:11 <kiba> it run on chromium and firefox
121 2011-04-06 06:05:02 <kiba> molecular: so it runs on linux, if that what you mean
122 2011-04-06 06:06:45 <molecular> ah, I see, nice
123 2011-04-06 06:06:54 <kiba> will you be pledging?
124 2011-04-06 06:07:07 <molecular> yes, just still deciding on the amount
125 2011-04-06 06:08:41 <molecular> "Note: I won't be responsible for holding your money in escrow. If you are a trusted member of the community, this is your opportunity to earn some reputation." <- what do you mean by that? When do we pay you?
126 2011-04-06 06:09:17 <kiba> that, I have not figured it out yet
127 2011-04-06 06:09:24 <kiba> I need to design a roadmap
128 2011-04-06 06:09:33 <kiba> err
129 2011-04-06 06:09:35 <kiba> write a roadmap
130 2011-04-06 06:09:53 <kiba> but presumbly, with enough progress, I will be able to release a beta release
131 2011-04-06 06:10:06 <molecular> so for now it's just people pledging and at some point after you have started (pledges >1200) you might say to us: guys, I need money, can you send what you pledged?
132 2011-04-06 06:10:11 <kiba> and you guys get to decide
133 2011-04-06 06:10:21 <kiba> molecular: no...
134 2011-04-06 06:10:24 <kiba> the way
135 2011-04-06 06:10:25 <kiba> it works
136 2011-04-06 06:10:30 <kiba> is that I have to show you guys my goodie
137 2011-04-06 06:10:43 <kiba> I can't just say
138 2011-04-06 06:10:47 <kiba> "guys, I need more money"
139 2011-04-06 06:11:53 <molecular> so, if we were to be a..holes, we could say: "dude, that's not good enough, the colors are all wrong" and not give you anything?
140 2011-04-06 06:11:55 <luke-jr> otg|guys, I need more money
141 2011-04-06 06:12:21 <kiba> molecular: it's all trust
142 2011-04-06 06:12:25 <molecular> ok, I see
143 2011-04-06 06:12:29 <kiba> but you guys are not going to be aholes
144 2011-04-06 06:12:38 <molecular> of course not
145 2011-04-06 06:12:40 <kiba> I mean...when you guys ever been aholes?
146 2011-04-06 06:12:58 <molecular> noone here has ever been an ass to me
147 2011-04-06 06:13:05 <kiba> exactly
148 2011-04-06 06:13:07 <molecular> except verbally maybe ;)
149 2011-04-06 06:13:23 <kiba> the bitcoin community wouldn't function if we were all aholes
150 2011-04-06 06:13:57 <kiba> access to the game forum, credit, and energy credits!
151 2011-04-06 06:14:03 <kiba> but
152 2011-04-06 06:14:05 <kiba> I need to sleep
153 2011-04-06 06:14:06 <kiba> see ya
154 2011-04-06 06:14:10 <molecular> l8er
155 2011-04-06 06:16:28 <BurtyB> mornin
156 2011-04-06 06:27:49 <kiba> argh
157 2011-04-06 06:27:51 <kiba> sleep
158 2011-04-06 06:27:52 <kiba> a problem
159 2011-04-06 06:32:55 <topi`> what's the fastest CPU client for core2 cpus on linux?
160 2011-04-06 06:33:32 <topi`> I guess SSE3 has to be used so that there is a reasonable bitrotate available
161 2011-04-06 06:34:14 <luke-jr> otg|miner*
162 2011-04-06 06:38:36 <[Tycho]> topi`, ufasoft's CPU miner. Not sure if it's available for linux.
163 2011-04-06 06:39:36 <jgarzik> topi`: ufasoft on windows, sse2_64 algo in cpuminer on 64-bit Linux
164 2011-04-06 06:39:58 <topi`> ok
165 2011-04-06 06:40:34 <[Tycho]> jgarzik's minerd has the advantage of Long Polling if you are going to mine in pool.
166 2011-04-06 06:41:45 <topi`> ok, I am mining for a pool, but why do I want Long Polling?
167 2011-04-06 06:42:33 <CFSworks> Long polling informs your miner the moment the previous work becomes stale, so it doesn't work on a share that will be rejected.
168 2011-04-06 06:42:48 <topi`> that would be useful
169 2011-04-06 06:43:00 <topi`> I'm running m0mchil's python client, does it know how to do it?
170 2011-04-06 06:43:07 <CFSworks> poclbm does, yes. :)
171 2011-04-06 06:43:15 <topi`> but I need to choose some command line option?
172 2011-04-06 06:43:27 <CFSworks> No, it automatically detects that the pool supports long-polling and uses it.
173 2011-04-06 06:43:28 <topi`> AFAIK I did not know anything about long polling
174 2011-04-06 06:43:31 <topi`> ah, ok
175 2011-04-06 06:43:34 <CFSworks> What pool is it, by the way?
176 2011-04-06 06:43:41 <topi`> slush's
177 2011-04-06 06:44:03 <CFSworks> Last I checked, Slush doesn't quite have long-polling support yet, but he's working on it... Anybody know if he finished it yet?
178 2011-04-06 06:45:04 <topi`> problem is, my GPU is slow, so it mines at 1.5 Mhash/s
179 2011-04-06 06:46:10 <CFSworks> What GPU is it?
180 2011-04-06 06:46:26 <topi`> a Nvidia 9400M (this is an old Macbook)
181 2011-04-06 06:46:27 <[Tycho]> No, AFAIK LP support is not enabled yet in slush's pool.
182 2011-04-06 06:46:37 <finnomenon> ;bc.rate
183 2011-04-06 06:46:44 <finnomenon> ;bc.help
184 2011-04-06 06:47:00 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,stats
185 2011-04-06 06:47:03 <gribble> Current Blocks: 116997 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1946 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 17 hours, 31 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 76603.02423885
186 2011-04-06 06:47:15 <jgarzik> topi`: that's slower than one of my CPU cores ;)
187 2011-04-06 06:47:26 <jgarzik> topi`: I get almost 3 Mhash/sec per core
188 2011-04-06 06:47:27 <CFSworks> I do have push-work from Slush's pool, in a way, using my MMP gateway.
189 2011-04-06 06:47:32 <topi`> jgarzik: no shit, this is a 1.5 year old low end laptop :)
190 2011-04-06 06:47:39 <jgarzik> hehe
191 2011-04-06 06:47:45 <topi`> jgarzik: what kind of CPU gives 3 M?
192 2011-04-06 06:47:58 <topi`> I only get around 1.5M from my Core 2 Duo 2.26
193 2011-04-06 06:47:59 <BurtyB> i7 980
194 2011-04-06 06:48:03 <jgarzik> topi`: very recent intel
195 2011-04-06 06:48:08 <topi`> I see
196 2011-04-06 06:48:15 <BurtyB> I get about 3.7/core
197 2011-04-06 06:48:22 <CFSworks> My laptop's i5 does 4M.
198 2011-04-06 06:49:01 <topi`> jgarzik: but I'll rather use the GPU miner since the GPU uses 5 watts at full blast, while the Core 2 Duo consumes over 20 watts when both cores are working :)
199 2011-04-06 06:49:02 <finnomenon> ;;bc,gen 320000
200 2011-04-06 06:49:05 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 320000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 3.90863310587 BTC per day and 0.162859712745 BTC per hour.
201 2011-04-06 06:53:06 <topi`> got something on the poclbm output
202 2011-04-06 06:53:11 <topi`> 06/04/2011 10:52:31, 438fe27c, accepted
203 2011-04-06 06:53:27 <topi`> does this mean that I finally get some meager percentages from slush?
204 2011-04-06 06:54:45 <CFSworks> topi`: Yep, go ahead and watch your "estimated reward" on your account page.
205 2011-04-06 07:02:22 <topi`> well it says "score: 0" :(
206 2011-04-06 07:02:31 <topi`> last share seen at 07:23
207 2011-04-06 07:02:41 <topi`> but that was one round before, I think
208 2011-04-06 07:16:41 <ersi> topi`: I get 4kHps per core with my i5-2500k
209 2011-04-06 07:18:18 <JFK911> nice
210 2011-04-06 08:09:12 <topi`> jaromil: i'm always online ;) have fun in your presentation
211 2011-04-06 08:12:57 <jaromil> topi`: gvd is full of suits here
212 2011-04-06 08:13:12 <jaromil> these ppl rly don't know how to dress
213 2011-04-06 08:13:13 <topi`> suits! I was afraid of that :)
214 2011-04-06 08:14:11 <topi`> there are different corporate cultures, as well. when I was representing Nokia with a couple of colleagues of mine (all engineers/managers), our side of the table was in woollen pullovers, t-shirts, whatnot, and the british company on the other side in suits :)
215 2011-04-06 08:14:31 <jaromil> no wonder why their systems are bonkers. bad taste is definitely a sign of failure
216 2011-04-06 08:14:38 <topi`> yes!!
217 2011-04-06 08:15:07 <topi`> do you still need to make demo transactions?
218 2011-04-06 08:15:15 <topi`> my empty wallet at your disposal ;)
219 2011-04-06 08:15:55 <jaromil> too late :)
220 2011-04-06 08:15:59 <topi`> damn.
221 2011-04-06 08:29:44 <dbitcoin> ;;bc,help
222 2011-04-06 08:29:44 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,labs, Alias bc,lbs, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,prob, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, and Alias bc,wiki
223 2011-04-06 08:30:10 <dbitcoin> ;;bc,stats
224 2011-04-06 08:30:13 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117005 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1938 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 13 hours, 22 minutes, and 42 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77149.30411352
225 2011-04-06 08:31:33 <sirius-m> jaromil: how is the atmosphere at epca? :)
226 2011-04-06 08:33:23 <jaromil> sirius-m: *full* of suits
227 2011-04-06 08:33:48 <jaromil> i've collected brochures, missed all talks to help prepare (network wasn't working etc.)
228 2011-04-06 08:34:08 <jaromil> looks pretty international
229 2011-04-06 08:35:17 <topi`> jaromil: did genjix manage to get some sleep he dearly needed? :)
230 2011-04-06 08:35:29 <sirius-m> I guess suits are the standard in corporate events
231 2011-04-06 08:35:35 <jaromil> just 3h
232 2011-04-06 08:35:42 <topi`> crazy
233 2011-04-06 08:35:47 <jaromil> sirius-m: i'd expect some more fashion happening
234 2011-04-06 08:36:03 <topi`> jaro: they just don't know how :)
235 2011-04-06 08:36:49 <sirius-m> thanks for being there, it's a new important audience for bitcoin
236 2011-04-06 08:37:15 <sirius-m> people who otherwise might not hear about the project
237 2011-04-06 08:37:35 <jaromil> true but knowing the types i think they are thinking how to fork it in their own advantage
238 2011-04-06 08:37:48 <jaromil> prolly wasted effort
239 2011-04-06 08:38:58 <topi`> at least they start talking about it:)
240 2011-04-06 08:39:05 <topi`> good luck finding ways to exploit the system
241 2011-04-06 08:39:10 <krytzz> hopefully they cant fork the network
242 2011-04-06 08:39:16 <krytzz> only could start a seperate one :(
243 2011-04-06 08:39:18 <sirius-m> nah, it's good that you're spreading the word :)
244 2011-04-06 08:40:41 <topi`> if there *will* be some threat coming from corporate sector, then we'll finally find out how resilient the whole architecture is :)
245 2011-04-06 08:54:36 <topi`> hmm, cpu-miner.c fails to compile under OSX, because no byteswap.h ... is this a known deficiency?
246 2011-04-06 08:55:01 <krytzz> yes, just install linux
247 2011-04-06 08:55:04 <krytzz> :p
248 2011-04-06 08:55:19 <topi`> i'm pretty sure there's no byteswap.h on FreeBSD, neither.
249 2011-04-06 08:56:17 <topi`> ok, it just defines the bswap_16/32 macros
250 2011-04-06 09:12:49 <topi`> anyone here wanna help me fix one 32/64bit relocation problem? this prevents me from compiling jgarzik's cpu miner on OSX
251 2011-04-06 09:13:23 <nefario> any python devs in the house? looking for an easy way to get m2crypto working on my python installation
252 2011-04-06 09:13:24 <topi`> Topin-MacBook:x86_64 topi$ /opt/local/bin/yasm -f macho64 sha256_xmm_amd64.asm
253 2011-04-06 09:13:27 <topi`> sha256_xmm_amd64.asm:106: error: macho: sorry, cannot apply 32 bit absolute relocations in 64 bit mode, consider "[_symbol wrt rip]" for mem access, "qword" and "dq _foo" for pointers.
254 2011-04-06 09:14:10 <topi`> now, I have no experience of x86_64 asm whatsoever, so don't know if a 32 bit absolute relocation ought to be valid in 64 bit mode or not.
255 2011-04-06 09:15:30 <jed> nefario: pip install m2crypto?
256 2011-04-06 09:16:27 <nefario> whats pip, sorry I have no idea how python packages get installed for python installations
257 2011-04-06 09:16:31 <nefario> im on debian lenny
258 2011-04-06 09:17:38 <jed> http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=m2crypto&searchon=names&suite=stable&section=all
259 2011-04-06 09:17:39 <topi`> python-m2crypto - a crypto and SSL toolkit for Python
260 2011-04-06 09:18:01 <jed> upgrade to squeeze and you get it in apt, otherwise install pip and pip install m2crypto
261 2011-04-06 09:18:01 <nefario> thanks
262 2011-04-06 09:18:24 <topi`> squeeze is recommended, unless you're running a mission-critical server:)
263 2011-04-06 09:18:50 <jed> oh - it's in lenny, too. they changed how that stupid thing searches
264 2011-04-06 09:18:59 <topi`> it's also possible to install squeeze packages on top of lenny, BUT then you'd better know what you're doing
265 2011-04-06 09:19:12 <nefario> thats what I've been doing todate
266 2011-04-06 09:19:20 <jed> I lied: http://packages.debian.org/lenny/python-m2crypto
267 2011-04-06 09:23:10 <nefario> seems to have worked
268 2011-04-06 09:23:27 <nefario> python doesn't have the equivalent to ruby gems then?
269 2011-04-06 09:24:05 <jed> did you google pip?
270 2011-04-06 09:24:23 <nefario> no haha, just used apt-get
271 2011-04-06 09:24:32 <jed> we've had gems since before ruby existed
272 2011-04-06 09:24:41 <jed> we just can't stick to a name
273 2011-04-06 09:24:52 <nefario> haha
274 2011-04-06 09:24:56 <nefario> thats it there then
275 2011-04-06 09:32:45 <topi`> jgarzik: what version of jansson do you except for the miner?
276 2011-04-06 09:32:54 <topi`> I got error: too few arguments to function 'json_load_file'
277 2011-04-06 09:34:33 <topi`> and if I look at the jansson includes, it is *json_load_file(const char *path, size_t flags, json_error_t *error);
278 2011-04-06 09:40:45 <ForceDestroyer> How am I supposed to handle all those addresses the BitCoin client generates? I don't need that many :(
279 2011-04-06 09:41:22 <sipa> it handles them for you :)
280 2011-04-06 09:41:24 <ForceDestroyer> I can't even re-order them, let alone classify or delete...
281 2011-04-06 09:41:38 <sipa> you can label them :)
282 2011-04-06 09:41:43 <sipa> but it definitely needa work
283 2011-04-06 09:42:25 <ForceDestroyer> Yes, but getting one out of there that has a label will be too tedious in no time if it keeps generating addresses at this pace
284 2011-04-06 09:43:15 <ForceDestroyer> When does it generate a new one? I can't see any pattern to it, but they just pop up every now and then
285 2011-04-06 09:43:44 <sipa> every time you receive a payment to an so-far-unused one, or when it generates change
286 2011-04-06 09:47:10 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.7478,"low":0.58,"vol":9324,"buy":0.7,"sell":0.702,"last":0.7018}}
287 2011-04-06 09:47:10 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
288 2011-04-06 09:47:14 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
289 2011-04-06 09:47:16 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117013 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1930 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 16 hours, 45 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 76019.99681399
290 2011-04-06 09:47:22 <JFK911> lol 82k
291 2011-04-06 09:47:36 <JFK911> ;;bc,gen 400000
292 2011-04-06 09:47:39 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 4.88579138234 BTC per day and 0.203574640931 BTC per hour.
293 2011-04-06 09:52:04 <ForceDestroyer> ;;bc,gen 240000
294 2011-04-06 09:52:05 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 240000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 2.9314748294 BTC per day and 0.122144784558 BTC per hour.
295 2011-04-06 09:54:05 <JFK911> They should re-state that in terms of heroin you can buy from that site
296 2011-04-06 09:54:20 <JFK911> unless you can buy other stuff with bitcoins now
297 2011-04-06 09:56:52 <ForceDestroyer> If I backup wallet, then send BTC to an address I had before the backup, will those too be restored?
298 2011-04-06 09:57:12 <JFK911> restored?
299 2011-04-06 09:57:20 <ForceDestroyer> *be able to be restored in case of HDD failure
300 2011-04-06 09:57:32 <JFK911> you mean a scheme to clone bitcoins?
301 2011-04-06 09:57:42 <ForceDestroyer> I mean HDD failure
302 2011-04-06 09:58:40 <ForceDestroyer> A similar question is: are bitcoins known as being "together" that the same node has control on but received via different addresses?
303 2011-04-06 09:58:47 <xelister> ForceDestroyer: all transactions that you did, will of course remain in effect
304 2011-04-06 09:58:53 <xelister> because entire network keeps them
305 2011-04-06 09:59:34 <xelister> ;;bc,gen 100000
306 2011-04-06 09:59:35 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 100000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 1.22144784558 BTC per day and 0.0508936602327 BTC per hour.
307 2011-04-06 10:00:05 <ForceDestroyer> But does my node have to keep anything it has done during an incoming transfer, such that coins sent to me after the backup but before the crash would be destroyed even on "old" target addresses?
308 2011-04-06 10:00:30 <xelister> ForceDestroyer: afaik it does not have to
309 2011-04-06 10:00:41 <xelister> ForceDestroyer: you need to have the wallet with receiving address
310 2011-04-06 10:00:51 <xelister> that is all
311 2011-04-06 10:01:28 <ForceDestroyer> So, I only need to backup after recieving on an address that was created since the last backup -- that I can handle. Even though the constand address-generation annoys me. :p
312 2011-04-06 10:01:49 <xelister> its good for privacy,  but you can just save and always use same address
313 2011-04-06 10:01:55 <xelister> which is really had for any privacy
314 2011-04-06 10:01:57 <xelister> *bad
315 2011-04-06 10:02:19 <ForceDestroyer> Okay, but if the transfers come from the same source anyways... dunno
316 2011-04-06 10:02:23 <eps2> http://www.startupproject.org/2011/04/gumroad/
317 2011-04-06 10:02:31 <ForceDestroyer> then again, you're right with that, too
318 2011-04-06 10:02:35 <eps2> maybe something like that could work with bitcoin
319 2011-04-06 10:05:25 <ForceDestroyer> How are coins combined from the different addresses I used to receive when I send them on? Also, isn't multi-address thing pointless the moment I do a large transfer, 'cause then everyone knows the money has been on the same person?
320 2011-04-06 10:06:21 <xelister> ForceDestroyer: actually, unless you are using mixing server it will be possible to track you eventually
321 2011-04-06 10:07:04 <ForceDestroyer> That's what I figured. Mixing servers to the rescue, lol
322 2011-04-06 10:07:20 <ersi> Mix it up, trix it up.
323 2011-04-06 10:07:31 <eps2> tor?
324 2011-04-06 10:07:48 <ersi> Doesn't make it anonymous.
325 2011-04-06 10:07:57 <sipa> the best mixing servers are actually mtgox and mybitcoin, i think :)
326 2011-04-06 10:07:58 <ForceDestroyer> Okay, but I admittedly see no problem with mixing servers, so I suppose I can forget about that problem on the long run. Even better, those can serve to purge the blocks :3
327 2011-04-06 10:08:11 <ForceDestroyer> Yes, mtgox is obviously winning there
328 2011-04-06 10:08:43 <ForceDestroyer> btcoin transfers have no fee on it, and everyone and their grandmas use it, so it's the obvious choice :p
329 2011-04-06 10:15:00 <joepie91> if you are looking for a certain mode change in a mIRC log, here's a handy regex:
330 2011-04-06 10:15:01 <joepie91> sets mode: [^S][a-zA-Z]*s
331 2011-04-06 10:15:15 <joepie91> also catches multimode stuff such as +aohv nick1 nick2 nick3 nick4
332 2011-04-06 10:24:31 <UukGoblin> who's the bitcoincharts guy?
333 2011-04-06 10:24:52 <UukGoblin> there's bitomat.pl, a polish exchange in alpha development ;-)
334 2011-04-06 10:29:15 <tcatm> cool
335 2011-04-06 10:30:11 <tcatm> Who runs bitomat.pl?
336 2011-04-06 10:31:02 <UukGoblin> bitomat@szabat.com it seems
337 2011-04-06 10:31:22 <UukGoblin> named 'acdbddh' on bitcoin.pl/forum
338 2011-04-06 10:31:36 <UukGoblin> I can tell him to contact you regarding a feed if you want ;-]
339 2011-04-06 10:32:33 <tcatm> I'll email him.
340 2011-04-06 10:34:36 <UukGoblin> cool :-)
341 2011-04-06 10:35:28 <kiba> so
342 2011-04-06 10:35:38 <kiba> only 30 BTC were pledged for my game project
343 2011-04-06 10:35:49 <UukGoblin> kiba, what game?
344 2011-04-06 10:35:52 <kiba> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5465.0
345 2011-04-06 10:35:59 <kiba> a RTS game
346 2011-04-06 10:36:56 <kiba> I am 97.5% short of my fundraising goal
347 2011-04-06 10:37:42 <UukGoblin> kiba, is that gonna be p2p or client-server? :-]
348 2011-04-06 10:38:06 <kiba> client, server
349 2011-04-06 10:41:07 <UukGoblin> will it be opensource? how will it use bitcoins?
350 2011-04-06 10:42:46 <UukGoblin> tcatm, oh, looks like there's also bitmarket.eu, not sure if you know about it already
351 2011-04-06 10:43:38 <tcatm> Yea, I already asked him to add an API.
352 2011-04-06 10:44:05 <kiba> yes, UukGoblin
353 2011-04-06 10:44:09 <kiba> which I forgot to mention
354 2011-04-06 10:44:15 <T_X> kiba: hehe, what did you expect? you just started that thread today, and for ~130 viewers 30btc is already quite good IMO
355 2011-04-06 10:44:20 <T_X> :)
356 2011-04-06 10:44:59 <kiba> but all the people are more concerned with other goods and services :/
357 2011-04-06 10:46:21 <T_X> kiba: by the way, it's really awesome that you are offering these different freelancing stuff. your short story, the drawing, now the game coding
358 2011-04-06 10:46:22 <T_X> but I think it's quite hard to keep track of all this, if it's just posted at random times somewhere in the forums
359 2011-04-06 10:51:52 <eps2> well i posted that gumroad link earlieer
360 2011-04-06 10:52:05 <eps2> we really need something like that or gumroad for bitcoin
361 2011-04-06 10:52:15 <kiba> so
362 2011-04-06 10:52:17 <kiba> anybody
363 2011-04-06 10:52:19 <kiba> want to
364 2011-04-06 10:52:27 <eps2> sorry something like kickstarter
365 2011-04-06 10:52:27 <kiba> pledge some bitcoin :O
366 2011-04-06 10:52:56 <eps2> the bitcoin bounty sites i have seen so far have been pretty uninspiring
367 2011-04-06 10:53:15 <kiba> what site?
368 2011-04-06 10:53:31 <UukGoblin> kiba, nope, sorry. Paying bitcoins for dev of a game I'm unlikely to play much, that will require bitcoins to play later... not my thing, sorry
369 2011-04-06 10:53:58 <eps2> there was one site, i can't find a link atm
370 2011-04-06 10:54:04 <UukGoblin> I'd donate if you were writing a p2p mmorpg using bitcoins as an in-world currency
371 2011-04-06 10:54:08 <kiba> UukGoblin: you will get energy credit
372 2011-04-06 10:55:00 <UukGoblin> the concept is interesting, I have to say, but I just don't have enough time to play games these days
373 2011-04-06 10:55:36 <kiba> but it will be open source :O
374 2011-04-06 10:55:44 <kiba> and under the public domain :)
375 2011-04-06 10:57:53 <phantomcircuit> bitcoins are abstract beyond the thinking of 60% of the population >.>
376 2011-04-06 10:57:58 <nefario> When bitcoind starts up for the first time, it begins to download the block chain, during this time, prior to having downloaded the entire block chain will it be able to generate new addresses?
377 2011-04-06 10:58:19 <sipa> should be
378 2011-04-06 10:58:30 <sipa> generating addresses does not require any communication
379 2011-04-06 10:58:43 <wump> yes, addresses are purely random
380 2011-04-06 10:58:57 <nefario> right, thanks
381 2011-04-06 11:09:30 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
382 2011-04-06 11:09:32 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117022 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1921 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 9 hours, 14 minutes, and 47 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77188.12695445
383 2011-04-06 11:11:23 <phantomcircuit> LobsterMan, i like your name
384 2011-04-06 11:11:30 <phantomcircuit> it's almost like you're a lobster
385 2011-04-06 11:11:32 <nefario> should bitcoind be using 17-40% cpu while downloading the blockchain without generating?
386 2011-04-06 11:11:33 <phantomcircuit> but you're not
387 2011-04-06 11:11:35 <phantomcircuit> you're a man
388 2011-04-06 11:11:39 <phantomcircuit> nefario, yes
389 2011-04-06 11:11:48 <phantomcircuit> nefario, it's doing lots of maths
390 2011-04-06 11:12:11 <nefario> OK, so it downloads and verifies the chain at the same time then
391 2011-04-06 11:12:40 <eps2> it downloadifies
392 2011-04-06 11:13:12 <kiba> hey nefario
393 2011-04-06 11:13:15 <phantomcircuit> eps2, <3
394 2011-04-06 11:13:33 <nefario> well I'm just trying to get an app done, and I've built a local version of bitcoind to test against but it's being totally unresponsive
395 2011-04-06 11:13:36 <nefario> hey kiba
396 2011-04-06 11:14:13 <nefario> I did get a response from it once after just starting up using curl
397 2011-04-06 11:14:18 <phantomcircuit> nefario, it'll take a long as time to download
398 2011-04-06 11:14:19 <nefario> which seemed to work fine
399 2011-04-06 11:14:51 <nefario> so I can expect json-rpc not to work as long as it's downloading the blockchain and verifying it
400 2011-04-06 11:14:52 <jed> give it a couple hours, nefario
401 2011-04-06 11:14:55 <jed> yes.
402 2011-04-06 11:14:57 <nefario> ok
403 2011-04-06 11:15:00 <nefario> thats fine
404 2011-04-06 11:15:09 <nefario> was wondering if I had cocked something uo
405 2011-04-06 11:15:11 <nefario> up
406 2011-04-06 11:16:36 <LobsterMan> (Y)^_^(Y)
407 2011-04-06 11:30:59 <topi`> morning lobster, thanks for your article about GPU mining, it helped my little brother
408 2011-04-06 11:33:14 <slush> are transactions under 0.01 relayed by network and accepted to memory pools?
409 2011-04-06 11:34:00 <luke-jr> slush: no
410 2011-04-06 11:34:12 <luke-jr> slush: that's why you need to connect direct to free relay net
411 2011-04-06 11:34:29 <slush> ok, so spamming with under-cent transactions aren't possible
412 2011-04-06 11:35:00 <slush> I though so, but want to be sure :) thanks
413 2011-04-06 11:36:39 <genjix> joepie91: hey
414 2011-04-06 11:57:14 <jaromil> topi`: are you seriously planning to become a miner?
415 2011-04-06 12:18:29 <tcatm> new service: telnet bitcoincharts.com 27006
416 2011-04-06 12:19:50 <CIA-96> bitcoin: phantomcircuit * r88eee3893de5 bitcoin-alt/bitcoin/script.py: got some scripting done http://tinyurl.com/6l7chs7
417 2011-04-06 12:21:18 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, what is this
418 2011-04-06 12:21:28 <tcatm> phantomcircuit: connect and send some BTC
419 2011-04-06 12:25:09 <dbitcoin> ;;bc,stats
420 2011-04-06 12:25:11 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117028 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1915 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 12 hours, 57 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 76076.55229829
421 2011-04-06 12:28:07 <minus> will the difficulty keep on growing endlessly?
422 2011-04-06 12:29:23 <luke-jr> minus: so long as people get more mining going
423 2011-04-06 12:29:48 <dbitcoin> minus: if btc market value only rises, then yes.
424 2011-04-06 12:30:46 <minus> mhh, haven't quite gotten what happens when you mine, might take a read on that lateron
425 2011-04-06 12:33:57 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, neat
426 2011-04-06 12:34:45 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki how bitcoin works
427 2011-04-06 12:34:46 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_bitcoin_works | Mar 2, 2011 ... The block chain which is constantly being generated by the Bitcoin network works as a common agreement about the order in which bitcoin ...
428 2011-04-06 12:34:48 <nanotube> minus: ^
429 2011-04-06 12:35:32 <minus> yeah, have that open already, it's lies well between the other 159 tabs
430 2011-04-06 12:39:45 <CIA-96> bitcoin: phantomcircuit * r1eae49ce8469 bitcoin-alt/bitcoin/script.py: some more parsing... http://tinyurl.com/3ljqzhq
431 2011-04-06 12:42:17 <nanotube> minus: haha
432 2011-04-06 12:50:34 <jav> is it possible - using the JSON-RPC interface - to spent coins that I only just received (having 0 confirmations)?
433 2011-04-06 12:51:52 <joepie91> http://images.4chan.org/b/src/1302099893963.jpg
434 2011-04-06 12:51:52 <sipa> yes
435 2011-04-06 12:51:55 <sipa> oh
436 2011-04-06 12:52:05 <sipa> only if you sent them to yourself
437 2011-04-06 12:52:12 <sipa> otherwise at least one is needed
438 2011-04-06 12:52:18 <BlueMatt> joepie91: so true
439 2011-04-06 12:52:23 <joepie91> yup
440 2011-04-06 12:52:25 <joepie91> lol
441 2011-04-06 12:52:39 <joepie91> seriously, 4chan may have the weirdest stuff ever
442 2011-04-06 12:52:42 <joepie91> but things like this...
443 2011-04-06 12:52:47 <BlueMatt> been doing some arp/wifi stuff today, fun times
444 2011-04-06 12:52:47 <joepie91> so much truth in them it's almost painful
445 2011-04-06 12:53:27 <jav> sipa: I see.. and there is no way around that? can I modify the source or will those transactions be considered invalid by other clients?
446 2011-04-06 12:54:11 <sipa> jav: you could
447 2011-04-06 13:01:15 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
448 2011-04-06 13:01:16 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.7478,"low":0.638,"vol":8936,"buy":0.7013,"sell":0.7231,"last":0.7236}}
449 2011-04-06 13:11:43 <jgarzik> sipa: did you see gavinandresen's comments on your pull?
450 2011-04-06 13:12:52 <sipa> jgarzik: yes, i don't understand it, but i don't have time to look into it right now
451 2011-04-06 13:18:39 <jav> I just updated to the latest git source, and I'm now getting "this is an oversized transaction" for sending 0.03 from a wallet that has only 0.03 in it... is that even possible to be oversized?
452 2011-04-06 13:19:18 <jav> or have some checks been made tighter or something (?)
453 2011-04-06 13:23:15 <lfm> there might be a bug in the latest git
454 2011-04-06 13:23:54 <lfm> jav you arnt using a -txfee= arg eh?
455 2011-04-06 13:24:08 <jav> lfm: I'm not, no
456 2011-04-06 13:24:37 <sipa> i checked the source
457 2011-04-06 13:24:51 <sipa> this error means that the transaction + the required fee is more than what you have in your wallet
458 2011-04-06 13:25:05 <lfm> or equalt to?
459 2011-04-06 13:25:20 <sipa> no, strictly more
460 2011-04-06 13:25:48 <jav> yeah, I saw that in the source as well (so the message can be a little misleading).. but still.. so I can't send 0.03 for free?
461 2011-04-06 13:25:58 <lfm> jav it is exactly 0.03 in your wallet? you havnt got some microcents somehow or anything?
462 2011-04-06 13:26:27 <lfm> jav you definatly should be able to send 0.03 for free
463 2011-04-06 13:27:56 <lfm> if you have some fractions of a cent that would explain it
464 2011-04-06 13:29:13 <jav> lfm: I can't think of a reason why I should have microcents.. I only sent money between mybitcoin and a local wallet to test a few things
465 2011-04-06 13:30:18 <lfm> ok, can you tell us the exact time and date of the last transaction in your wallet? (you are using the gui interface?)
466 2011-04-06 13:32:15 <jav> no, I don't use the GUI and don't have access to it right now .. but obviously I have at least 0.03 in my wallet, otherwise I wouldn't see that in the RPC output, right? so why can't I send that for free somewhere?
467 2011-04-06 13:33:02 <lfm> jav ok, your getinfo sez your balance is 0.03?
468 2011-04-06 13:33:27 <lfm> or getbalance
469 2011-04-06 13:34:15 <jav> yes
470 2011-04-06 13:34:32 <jav> and this is my mybitcoin address: http://blockexplorer.com/address/18zmG3oH7Qi8sVBpjj5QSwDfyN5gsyZMw9
471 2011-04-06 13:35:20 <nanotube> jav: that's only one of your addresses, since it doesn't have 3btc balance in it.
472 2011-04-06 13:35:35 <nanotube> and i guess now we know what's up - your 3btc is probably made up of dozens of small bits
473 2011-04-06 13:35:39 <nanotube> which increases size of tx in bytes
474 2011-04-06 13:35:46 <nanotube> hence, probably why client wants to include a txfee
475 2011-04-06 13:35:51 <jav> no, not 3btc... 0.03btc
476 2011-04-06 13:35:57 <nanotube> ah
477 2011-04-06 13:36:05 <lfm> nanotube he sed 0.03btc not 3 btc
478 2011-04-06 13:36:11 <nanotube> yea ok
479 2011-04-06 13:36:21 <nanotube> but that address has .16 balance
480 2011-04-06 13:36:28 <nanotube> much greater than .03...
481 2011-04-06 13:36:50 <gavinandresen> Latest git does have a change from luke-jr that tries to avoid losing sub-cent change... could be a bug in that code.
482 2011-04-06 13:36:51 <lfm> ya there must be some other addresses involved, maybe just change addresses
483 2011-04-06 13:37:23 <lfm> jav ya try going back to the mainline 0.3.20 binaries
484 2011-04-06 13:37:44 <gavinandresen> And please report back if that fixes it-- I'll back out the sub-cent change
485 2011-04-06 13:38:18 <jav> when I requested the latest git code to sent 0.02, it included 0.01 fee and created this transaction: http://blockexplorer.com/tx/dfbafebc3fd05948ca524a23515f731fdd894e312a0f47d257dccca054068707
486 2011-04-06 13:38:36 <luke-jr> jav: listtransactions > pastebin
487 2011-04-06 13:38:54 <lfm> jav ya sounds like it mistakenly thot you had sume sub cent change in there
488 2011-04-06 13:39:08 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: it's well-tested
489 2011-04-06 13:39:30 <lfm> luke try sending your last 0.03 out
490 2011-04-06 13:39:41 <luke-jr> lfm: k, 1 sec
491 2011-04-06 13:41:02 <jav> luke-jr: here is the output of listtransactions: http://pastebin.com/Dc6b8Bna
492 2011-04-06 13:44:12 <luke-jr> I wonder if it's a lack of confirmations?
493 2011-04-06 13:44:16 <luke-jr> on the change
494 2011-04-06 13:44:37 <lfm> jav can you try the 0.3.20 realease?
495 2011-04-06 13:44:51 <lfm> release
496 2011-04-06 13:45:21 <jav> gavinandresen: ok, I went back to git tag v0.3.20.2 ... I was now able to send those 0.03 BTC without it complaing about oversized transaction or requiring a few
497 2011-04-06 13:45:35 <luke-jr> jav: do you know how to bisect?
498 2011-04-06 13:45:45 <jav> luke-jr: my understanding is, that if there are not enough coins to send, the error message would say "insufficient funds".. that is what I got earlier
499 2011-04-06 13:46:42 <luke-jr> jav: give me an address, I'm going to send you 0.03 to play with, and a patch
500 2011-04-06 13:46:53 <lfm> jav ya, but the code to handle microcents is pretty messed up and it seems you got involved in that
501 2011-04-06 13:47:22 <jav> luke-jr: ok, here is an address: 1NCY9NDE2fFwHWznqhMNCRRGJzAiC1hnbc
502 2011-04-06 13:48:07 <luke-jr> jav: update to latest git and try this patch: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/366591/
503 2011-04-06 13:48:17 <luke-jr> try to send the 0.03 back to 14Dw79KZUPQZf2pguot2bXziZYGgoVBK4y
504 2011-04-06 13:48:57 <lfm> luke-jr you assume he can compile?
505 2011-04-06 13:49:07 <luke-jr> lfm: how is he running git if he can't compile?
506 2011-04-06 13:49:15 <jav> :-)
507 2011-04-06 13:49:32 <lfm> ok good point
508 2011-04-06 13:49:36 <luke-jr> :p
509 2011-04-06 13:49:56 <luke-jr> fwiw, I *am* getting the correct 'Insufficient funds' on my end
510 2011-04-06 13:50:17 <luke-jr> which might just mean I need to wait for confirmations to reproduce, time will tell
511 2011-04-06 13:50:24 <lfm> why is it insufficient funds?
512 2011-04-06 13:50:36 <luke-jr> lfm: it hasn't confirmed yet
513 2011-04-06 13:50:42 <lfm> oh ic
514 2011-04-06 13:50:43 <luke-jr> I'm testing in ljrbot's wallet :P
515 2011-04-06 13:51:22 <luke-jr> jav: before you try with the patch, test to be sure you get the error, ok?
516 2011-04-06 13:51:43 <luke-jr> just in case it has something to do with the old 0.03, and my new 0.03 doesn't reproduce it
517 2011-04-06 13:52:06 <jav> ok
518 2011-04-06 13:52:07 <gavinandresen> This is probably it:  bool fAllowFree = (nBlockSize + nTxSize < 4000 || CTransaction::AllowFree(dPriority));
519 2011-04-06 13:52:22 <lfm> looked like it incorrectly charged him a fee on the other txn too
520 2011-04-06 13:52:30 <gavinandresen> The CTransaction::AllowFree(dPriority) is new-- part of the penny-flooding prevention code.
521 2011-04-06 13:52:39 <luke-jr> O.o
522 2011-04-06 13:53:26 <gavinandresen> A 0.03 BTC transaction with new inputs will have very low priority, and will trip the "you must pay" code.
523 2011-04-06 13:53:31 <luke-jr> that might explain it. I don't think ljrbot has git with the penny-flood-protection
524 2011-04-06 13:54:29 <luke-jr> hmm
525 2011-04-06 13:54:34 <luke-jr> my 0.03 sends aren't getting confirmed :/
526 2011-04-06 13:54:42 <lfm> so people playing with faucet change will trigger this commonly
527 2011-04-06 13:55:57 <gavinandresen> yup.  Lots of people playing with faucet change == distributed penny flood....
528 2011-04-06 13:56:57 <jav> gavinandresen: is this intended then? I think it might be a little to strict then.. as lfm says, it seems like a typical scenario to receive 0.05 from the faucet, then spending/transfering it somewhere else... if in the process 0.01 are already paid, that looks pretty expensive
529 2011-04-06 13:57:58 <gavinandresen> Hang on, I'm misreading the code... that was just a refactor. 0.3.20 didn't allow very-low-priority txns to go through for free, either
530 2011-04-06 13:58:15 <jav> luke-jr: alright, so I started testing... using current git, without your patch, I'm also getting "insufficient funds" right now, because your 0.03 have not been confirmed yet... waiting it is then
531 2011-04-06 13:58:24 <lfm> jav I dont think it was really intended but its getting close to border situations between normal users and malicious ones
532 2011-04-06 13:58:25 <luke-jr> ok
533 2011-04-06 13:58:53 <luke-jr> anyone else have an empty wallet I can send 0.03 BTC to for testing?
534 2011-04-06 13:58:59 <luke-jr> to get the confirmation counting started&
535 2011-04-06 14:01:11 <jav> on the topic of fees in general: I think the client and the RPC code should be more transparent and more careful here... if a transaction requires a fee, than it should tell me, but never include it just because I have enough money to pay it... I think a fee should _always_ be specifically requested in the RPC method call and nothing should happen if a fee is required, but wasn't explicitly 'authorized', so to speak
536 2011-04-06 14:01:52 <lfm> jav I`d agree with that
537 2011-04-06 14:02:01 <luke-jr> jav: the new Wallet protocol will support specifying a min and max fee
538 2011-04-06 14:02:15 <jav> sounds good
539 2011-04-06 14:02:16 <luke-jr> and optionally prompting you to OK the result
540 2011-04-06 14:03:30 <lfm> seems like it should be a default to always require ok of any extra fee
541 2011-04-06 14:04:27 <hozer> hrrm.. is there any debian unstable pkg for wx2.9?
542 2011-04-06 14:04:54 <luke-jr> lfm: I have a patch to fix that
543 2011-04-06 14:05:17 <luke-jr> it was separate from my other patch, because gavin said it cause the wx GUI to prompt for 0.00 BTC fee ;p
544 2011-04-06 14:05:27 <luke-jr> dunno if the new stuff fixes that
545 2011-04-06 14:05:58 <lfm> luke-jr ok sounds good hehe, that whold area of code is kinda messed up I think
546 2011-04-06 14:06:41 <luke-jr> lfm: all of that codebase is kinda messed up :P
547 2011-04-06 14:07:31 <lfm> well ya but the whole micorcent issue is messed up by policy! grin<
548 2011-04-06 14:07:43 <kiba> yo
549 2011-04-06 14:07:44 <kiba> everyone
550 2011-04-06 14:07:48 <lfm> hi
551 2011-04-06 14:07:53 <kiba> hmm
552 2011-04-06 14:07:58 <kiba> 30 BTC pledge so far
553 2011-04-06 14:08:19 <luke-jr> lfm: I have a private branch with different policy too ;p
554 2011-04-06 14:08:41 <gavinandresen> lfm: what do you mean?  Latest bitcoin is happy to display and send sub-cents.  If you have a solution to penny-flooding under a different policy, lets hear it
555 2011-04-06 14:09:23 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I think he means spending 0.03 when your wallet only has a single 0.03000001 BTC coin
556 2011-04-06 14:09:37 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: it silently puts that 0.00000001 into a fee
557 2011-04-06 14:09:59 <lfm> then it sez it is too small so then it wants 0.01 fee
558 2011-04-06 14:10:13 <gavinandresen> Right.  If you have a better solution that doesn't open the system up to penny-flooding, I'm all ears.
559 2011-04-06 14:10:36 <jav> I don't really understand this whole penny-flooding business anyway... what is the motivation behind that? just being annoying or is there anything to be gained?
560 2011-04-06 14:10:58 <luke-jr> jav: it forces legitimate spends to have a fee
561 2011-04-06 14:11:04 <gavinandresen> lulz, as the kids say
562 2011-04-06 14:11:19 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: in that case, it would be nice to ask the user "This requires a 0.00000001 BTC fee"
563 2011-04-06 14:12:02 <gavinandresen> patches that don't have unintended side-effects welcome.
564 2011-04-06 14:12:15 <jav> luke-jr: so? a short-sighted miner who wants people to pay fees? ... I think miners are much better off having a well-working system to attract more users
565 2011-04-06 14:12:44 <lfm> jav: it point is the net can get flooded with tiny-tiny transactions and the social problem is trying to get solved with code. I dont know if it is possible to solve such a problem to everyone`s satisfaction. (I mean I suspect it is impossible)
566 2011-04-06 14:12:44 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I made one a few months ago, but at the time it showed 0.00 BTC fee
567 2011-04-06 14:12:52 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: due to the BTC formatting code in the wx
568 2011-04-06 14:12:53 <BlueMatt> what is the current ideas for distribution model going forward (download list, included blockchains ect)
569 2011-04-06 14:13:15 <luke-jr> jav: more likely, someone anti-bitcoin that wants to defeat the system
570 2011-04-06 14:14:54 <kiba> so...
571 2011-04-06 14:15:05 <kiba> I got a game project that I am trying to crowdsource
572 2011-04-06 14:15:07 <kiba> for bitcoin
573 2011-04-06 14:15:10 <kiba> err
574 2011-04-06 14:15:12 <kiba> crowdfund
575 2011-04-06 14:15:13 <kiba> for bitcoin
576 2011-04-06 14:15:14 <kiba> but
577 2011-04-06 14:15:27 <kiba> it seems that I got a big silence
578 2011-04-06 14:15:43 <hozer> kiba: got a link to a one-paragraph summary?
579 2011-04-06 14:15:52 <BlueMatt> kiba: the community is a bit small for that atm
580 2011-04-06 14:16:40 <topi`> jaromil: i'm just a hobbyist miner! my little brother has much better hardware for that (he's a gamer)
581 2011-04-06 14:16:54 <kiba> hozer: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5465.0
582 2011-04-06 14:17:20 <kiba> BlueMatt: you're telling me the community can't pool 1200 BTC?
583 2011-04-06 14:17:35 <BlueMatt> oh only 1200, well maybe not
584 2011-04-06 14:18:05 <kiba> I am not asking for the impossibl
585 2011-04-06 14:18:29 <kiba> but at the same time, it's like a big silence in a large forum
586 2011-04-06 14:19:02 <hozer> kiba: why not a kickstarter project
587 2011-04-06 14:19:41 <kiba> why?
588 2011-04-06 14:19:53 <kiba> I like bitcoin
589 2011-04-06 14:19:57 <kiba> I wanna get paid in bitcoin
590 2011-04-06 14:20:03 <kiba> don't want dollars
591 2011-04-06 14:20:11 <BlueMatt> sorry kiba not my style of game, will give you 5 if you make it just out of support though
592 2011-04-06 14:20:35 <kiba> there's no risk
593 2011-04-06 14:20:41 <kiba> in pledging bitcoin
594 2011-04-06 14:20:48 <kiba> if I don't make anything, you don't have to pay http://www.bitcoin.org/newsite2/me
595 2011-04-06 14:20:49 <BlueMatt> pledged on the forum
596 2011-04-06 14:21:35 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: jav: FWIW, I just successfully sent 0.03 BTC from an otherwise empty wallet
597 2011-04-06 14:22:09 <luke-jr> based on 8f58d0dbc8cc05d0969373eb4c0a555931b64245
598 2011-04-06 14:24:44 <gavinandresen> staring at the transaction-fee code, the only think I can think of is that jav's first transaction triggered the penny-flooding code.  Then time passed, and the second time the coins in his wallet were more mature so they have higher priority so did NOT trigger the penny-flooding code.
599 2011-04-06 14:25:20 <gavinandresen> So it might not be a 0.3.21 versus 0.3.20 issue at all.
600 2011-04-06 14:29:06 <jav> could be... unfortunately I don't have more time to test right now and my coins are still unconfirmed right now, will look into that more some other time ... luke-jr, I'll send you your 0.03 back from another account
601 2011-04-06 14:29:53 <luke-jr> sigh
602 2011-04-06 14:30:55 <jav> see you guys
603 2011-04-06 14:32:43 <topi`> why is it that it takes usually more than an hour to confirm one transaction? e.g. 6 confirmations
604 2011-04-06 14:33:13 <topi`> because even now, my bt client has 8 connections, which means that it could immediately reach 8 nodes and ask for verifying the transaction
605 2011-04-06 14:33:29 <lfm> topi`: cuz transactions are by design on every 10 min on average
606 2011-04-06 14:33:44 <lfm> or blocks, not txn
607 2011-04-06 14:33:48 <topi`> hmm, so the transactions are artificially rate-limited?
608 2011-04-06 14:34:18 <BlueMatt> topi`: its a necessity to prevent double spending
609 2011-04-06 14:34:31 <BlueMatt> topi`: and please ask non-development questions on #bitcoin-discussion
610 2011-04-06 14:34:39 <lfm> sorry no you can have 100s of txn per block but only confirming blocks are 6 per hour
611 2011-04-06 14:35:17 <topi`> Blue: sorry :(
612 2011-04-06 14:42:10 <lfm> who?
613 2011-04-06 14:59:23 <jaromil> i've just written a small article on the bitcoin presentation held at EPCA2011 today
614 2011-04-06 14:59:28 <jaromil> http://www.dyndy.net/2011/04/bitcoin-presented-to-the-old-world/
615 2011-04-06 15:00:21 <Blitzboom> cool, will read
616 2011-04-06 15:02:01 <topi`> go jaromil go :D
617 2011-04-06 15:02:16 <topi`> jaromil: I'm also writing an article about bitcoin and its future and what it means for all of us
618 2011-04-06 15:02:33 <topi`> from a slightly more economist perspective than usual
619 2011-04-06 15:02:39 <BlueMatt> nice jaromil
620 2011-04-06 15:04:17 <topi`> jaromil: judging from the pic, the benches seem pretty much empty. did ppl "disappear" because they had some prejudice against nerdish hackers coming to present ?
621 2011-04-06 15:04:40 <Blitzboom> how was the reaction of the audience?
622 2011-04-06 15:04:45 <Blitzboom> anyone interested?
623 2011-04-06 15:05:34 <BlueMatt> judging bt the article, interested but probably wont do anything with it.  Atleast they know it exists
624 2011-04-06 15:05:42 <jaromil> topi`: the room was big, however there were at least 50 ppl
625 2011-04-06 15:06:00 <jaromil> all suits
626 2011-04-06 15:06:26 <jaromil> i regret having missed the good picture: one with some more impressive slides that were shown
627 2011-04-06 15:07:01 <jaromil> BlueMatt: the article is just my first impression and i'm not really an expert of corporate world
628 2011-04-06 15:07:42 <jaromil> i'm trying to visualize also what can be done better: note we still need positive narratives on anonymity imho
629 2011-04-06 15:08:23 <jaromil> Blitzboom: the reaction was from extremely interested (we were approached by 4-5 ppl plus the organizers)
630 2011-04-06 15:08:39 <jaromil> to suspicious (watching us from far with serious faces)
631 2011-04-06 15:08:46 <Blitzboom> haha
632 2011-04-06 15:08:52 <jaromil> to entertained (finally something sexy on this stage)
633 2011-04-06 15:09:03 <lfm> jaromil: you saying drug dealing and money laundering ares compelling enuf? (grin)
634 2011-04-06 15:09:20 <jaromil> lfm: in fact they seemed very compelling to the audience :)
635 2011-04-06 15:09:24 <Blitzboom> did you seriously present silk road and laundering services? :D
636 2011-04-06 15:09:43 <jaromil> silk road is down, but yes laundering was presented :D
637 2011-04-06 15:09:55 <Blitzboom> hahaha
638 2011-04-06 15:10:04 <Blitzboom> im sure we can expect money launderers to be interested now
639 2011-04-06 15:10:22 <jaromil> mmm, i think genjix is getting a ticket to south africa soon
640 2011-04-06 15:10:28 <hozer> oh boy
641 2011-04-06 15:11:04 <jaromil> we had also an interesting discussion some days ago at pixxxel.net event also tobi was present
642 2011-04-06 15:11:25 <jaromil> i found interesting the negative remarks of a policy maker type sitting with us, noticing how the system is geared for laundering
643 2011-04-06 15:11:49 <jaromil> i've pointed out how the present economic system works also very well for laundering for example with house speculation in Amsterdam itself
644 2011-04-06 15:12:08 <jaromil> her insight in that was "well at least we thought of the system in good faith"
645 2011-04-06 15:12:11 <kiba> hmm
646 2011-04-06 15:13:19 <hozer> jaromil: so you got what you thought was positive reaction from the suites about the negative aspects of anonymity?
647 2011-04-06 15:14:13 <hozer> geez, I'm gonna have to figure out how to put bitcoin revenue on my taxes now ;)
648 2011-04-06 15:14:22 <jaromil> hozer: i'd define it sarcastic. read the quote by M. Price in the article (from a twit)
649 2011-04-06 15:15:07 <hozer> hah
650 2011-04-06 15:16:46 <jaromil> as an external observer (i'm not a stakeholder so far) i'd recommend that the bitcoin community opens a channel of communication with policy makers and governance on new models for "taxation / social funds" rather than join the rethoric of tea baggers, but then that's just my opinion again
651 2011-04-06 15:16:50 <kiba> introduce
652 2011-04-06 15:16:51 <kiba> the
653 2011-04-06 15:17:06 <kiba> crypto-dilemma
654 2011-04-06 15:18:15 <kiba> Bitcoin is a technology that can be used for good and evil..but fighting it will be nearly impossible
655 2011-04-06 15:18:34 <EvanR-work> jaromil: i dont see the bitcoin community being aligned with tea baggers officially or in principle
656 2011-04-06 15:19:02 <hozer> I've been trying to promote bitcoin for the local foods/slow money groups
657 2011-04-06 15:19:15 <jaromil> EvanR-work: i also don't. its completely open, but from the thick glasses of policy makers bitcoin can be easily assimilated to their fears for tea baggers
658 2011-04-06 15:19:33 <kiba> how about the narrative of connecting the global economy through grassroot effort instead of just the megacorporation?
659 2011-04-06 15:19:35 <jaromil> hozer: great!! do you have some documentation about that?
660 2011-04-06 15:19:45 <jaromil> kiba: yea!
661 2011-04-06 15:19:46 <CIA-96> bitcoin: mtve * r0f769b..583dc2 bitcoin-pl/ (10 files): (11 commits) http://tinyurl.com/42qv2gh
662 2011-04-06 15:19:53 <hozer> jaromil: no, not yet
663 2011-04-06 15:19:55 <luke-jr> :o
664 2011-04-06 15:20:01 <jaromil> u guys have done more than i can talk about
665 2011-04-06 15:20:03 <jaromil> document it!
666 2011-04-06 15:20:18 <lfm> jaromil: i figure a policy maker response to bitcoin would be "how can we control this"
667 2011-04-06 15:20:27 <kiba> I have an interesting narrative people might like
668 2011-04-06 15:20:28 <luke-jr> mtve: why revert my fix?
669 2011-04-06 15:20:31 <hozer> lfm: easy: hire coders
670 2011-04-06 15:20:41 <kiba> "I crowdfunded my game with bitcoin!"
671 2011-04-06 15:21:07 <jaromil> lfm: the response then can be "forget control, you already fucked it all up. now let's talk."
672 2011-04-06 15:21:15 <EvanR-work> jaromil: also, not to siphon discussion away from -dev but #bitcoin-politics exists
673 2011-04-06 15:21:23 <jaromil> EvanR-work: ack
674 2011-04-06 15:21:31 <hozer> I will happily provide my engineering services to anyone wishing to control bitcoin for $125/hour
675 2011-04-06 15:21:51 <jaromil> hozer: :DDD
676 2011-04-06 15:21:57 <hozer> of course, I'm going to turn around and buy wind turbines, miners, and then crowdfund Kiba's game
677 2011-04-06 15:21:59 <EvanR-work> hozer: sorry, government just cut the 'control people powered movements' budget
678 2011-04-06 15:22:55 <jaromil> EvanR-work: u sure? EU FP7 funding round has invested 4 billions in orwellian technology
679 2011-04-06 15:23:01 <hozer> evanr-work: Oh darn. Too bad for them. I guess they can't afford the control anymore
680 2011-04-06 15:23:07 <EvanR-work> jaromil: i was talking about US
681 2011-04-06 15:23:22 <EvanR-work> we broke
682 2011-04-06 15:23:25 <jaromil> EvanR-work: oh yea, US is waay better off EU ATM, IMHO
683 2011-04-06 15:23:33 <jaromil> than
684 2011-04-06 15:24:01 <jaromil> over here things are going  bonkers
685 2011-04-06 15:24:21 <EvanR-work> orwellian technology, sounds like freestateinitiative, which is coinsidentally lead by a euro
686 2011-04-06 15:24:52 <luke-jr> mtve: oh, I see& but that seems backward, and counter to reality
687 2011-04-06 15:24:53 <kiba> who hate internet pirates
688 2011-04-06 15:25:27 <jaromil> last 2 years alone there have been more riots and protests than in the last 10 years in EU and just vast amounts of violent repression was used on people, very little dialogue out of domesticated puppet circles
689 2011-04-06 15:25:41 <jaromil> and very little media coverage as well
690 2011-04-06 15:26:06 <jaromil> this site has a good picture of contemporary EU IMHO http://th-rough.eu/
691 2011-04-06 15:26:09 <EvanR-work> thats what they want you to think
692 2011-04-06 15:26:25 <EvanR-work> (tm)
693 2011-04-06 15:26:27 <kiba> I am not aware of the riot
694 2011-04-06 15:26:29 <kiba> and protest
695 2011-04-06 15:26:39 <lfm> jaromil: well some of em are realizing they can afford the old ways of keeping people happy and fat any more
696 2011-04-06 15:26:56 <jaromil> kiba: started in greece. last 2 years lots of universities were occupied...
697 2011-04-06 15:27:00 <kiba> the political consenus is breaking down
698 2011-04-06 15:27:01 <jaromil> all over europe
699 2011-04-06 15:27:22 <kiba> the political class, the elderly are stubborn to hold on to their pension
700 2011-04-06 15:27:39 <EvanR-work> soylent green
701 2011-04-06 15:27:40 <EvanR-work> sorted
702 2011-04-06 15:27:49 <lfm> kiba well they payed for those pensions long enuf
703 2011-04-06 15:28:20 <kiba> lfm: that may be so..but the incentive is so out of whack that they don't care about the young
704 2011-04-06 15:28:50 <lfm> depends on point of view, the young just want to steal those pension funds
705 2011-04-06 15:29:08 <kiba> and so it will break down
706 2011-04-06 15:29:22 <kiba> the alienation between the generations
707 2011-04-06 15:30:44 <hozer> there's this wonderful thing called inflation to deal with pension obligations
708 2011-04-06 15:30:48 <sirius-m> lfm: or not be the payers of the ponzi scheme :/
709 2011-04-06 15:31:21 <kiba> the politicans are caught between a rock and a hard place
710 2011-04-06 15:31:42 <hozer> meanwhile, the real work (like local foods & cryptocurrencies) happens quietly
711 2011-04-06 15:32:07 <lfm> gee, if only we could get all thos epolitician in between a rock and a hard place! grin
712 2011-04-06 15:32:37 <kiba> well, the incentive of politicans long ago is to win political victory at the expense of the future
713 2011-04-06 15:32:42 <kiba> political
714 2011-04-06 15:32:44 <kiba> reality
715 2011-04-06 15:33:31 <nefario> jaromil:genjix????
716 2011-04-06 15:33:43 <AtlasLGo> I heard there was some butthurt in here.
717 2011-04-06 15:33:53 <kiba> yo
718 2011-04-06 15:33:58 <AtlasLGo> Yo.
719 2011-04-06 15:35:15 <kiba> I should get to work preparing my VPS for that multiplayer tetris game
720 2011-04-06 15:36:01 <nefario> kiba
721 2011-04-06 15:36:19 <nefario> why you working on games when there are real problems in the real world that need to be solved
722 2011-04-06 15:36:29 <kiba> and?
723 2011-04-06 15:36:39 <kiba> that's my skill
724 2011-04-06 15:36:40 <AtlasLGo> You are starting to sound like LightRider, nefario.
725 2011-04-06 15:37:11 <nefario> really? sorry, I've had a few beers, I'm a nasty drunk
726 2011-04-06 15:37:21 <nefario> What I mean is:
727 2011-04-06 15:37:44 <lfm> nefario: why are you drinking beer when there are real problems in the real
728 2011-04-06 15:37:45 <lfm> world that need to be solved
729 2011-04-06 15:37:49 <sirius-m> :D
730 2011-04-06 15:37:54 <AtlasLGo> Why do people spend money on stuff? They should all be working for the common good, not money.
731 2011-04-06 15:38:03 <nefario> how about a handy way to allow users of social networking to communcate with their friends in a secure, and private way
732 2011-04-06 15:38:06 <AtlasLGo> If we all just slaved over problems we would all be happy.
733 2011-04-06 15:38:09 <kiba> what's the common good?
734 2011-04-06 15:38:18 <AtlasLGo> What Light Rider defines it to be.
735 2011-04-06 15:38:23 <kiba> nefario: I don't know anything about that
736 2011-04-06 15:38:24 <nefario> a kind of darknet that builds on top of sites like facebook and renren
737 2011-04-06 15:38:26 <kiba> but I do know about games
738 2011-04-06 15:38:34 <AtlasLGo> ...or what the computers tell us.
739 2011-04-06 15:38:35 <nefario> oh, ok then
740 2011-04-06 15:38:43 <AtlasLGo> Honestly, the Zeigeists intrique me.
741 2011-04-06 15:38:59 <nefario> lfm :b
742 2011-04-06 15:39:00 <AtlasLGo> I wonder if it is any different than Marxism.
743 2011-04-06 15:39:06 <jaromil> nefario: he is getting online now
744 2011-04-06 15:39:08 <kiba> AtlasLGo: I don't know.
745 2011-04-06 15:39:56 <AtlasLGo> I certainly don't like how they view humans as only a byproduct of a larger organism. Yuck.
746 2011-04-06 15:40:23 <kiba> smells icky to individualists
747 2011-04-06 15:40:27 <hozer> AtlasLGo: the Zeitgeist movie?
748 2011-04-06 15:40:46 <AtlasLGo> Zeitgeist movement overall. The Venus Project, etc.
749 2011-04-06 15:40:56 <hozer> they don't get it.
750 2011-04-06 15:41:09 <lfm> AtlasLGo: so "the workers control the means of production" make people a byproduct?
751 2011-04-06 15:41:13 <AtlasLGo> So far I just see it as Marxism with a new colorful label with futuristic buildings.
752 2011-04-06 15:41:31 <hozer> there's an example of one of these futuristic high-density cities. It's called New York
753 2011-04-06 15:41:35 <jaromil> i find it boring. rather read mcluhan than watch zeitgeist, at least his writing is better articulated and less propagandist
754 2011-04-06 15:41:46 <AtlasLGo> lfm: No, they think humans can be "conditioned" by their environments and they have no say in their thinking.
755 2011-04-06 15:41:48 <hozer> and if you look at interestates, they already have the ring structure he talks about.
756 2011-04-06 15:42:16 <genjix> nefario: hey back. are you on the vps?
757 2011-04-06 15:42:24 <nefario> I am
758 2011-04-06 15:42:28 <nefario> give me a min
759 2011-04-06 15:43:16 <kiba> Bitcoin Presented to Old-School Bankers
760 2011-04-06 15:43:21 <lfm> AtlasLGo: seems like putting "workers" in charge of there production is just the opposite to what you're saying. actually it seems you are talking more about communism than marxism
761 2011-04-06 15:43:52 <genjix> http://www.dyndy.net/2011/04/bitcoin-presented-to-the-old-world/
762 2011-04-06 15:44:03 <AtlasLGo> lfm: I simply cannot understand why they want all workers to have a say in production. It's implying they have the desire or intelligence to manage a factory.
763 2011-04-06 15:44:07 <kiba> that's the link
764 2011-04-06 15:44:40 <AtlasLGo> Nothing else.
765 2011-04-06 15:44:41 <kiba> they think capitalists are fatcat unproductive lazy ass rich folks
766 2011-04-06 15:45:22 <lfm> AtlasLGo: so you think "workers" are stupid and should not have a say in what they should be forced to do? interesting
767 2011-04-06 15:45:33 <AtlasLGo> I need to get my hands on some communist literature and figure these guys out.
768 2011-04-06 15:45:56 <kiba> lfm: that's a strawman
769 2011-04-06 15:46:05 <kiba> some people just want a job
770 2011-04-06 15:46:08 <kiba> like me
771 2011-04-06 15:46:10 <hozer> lfm: define 'forced' ... it's by choice
772 2011-04-06 15:46:22 <hozer> we have to be very clear about the difference between 'want' and 'need' here
773 2011-04-06 15:46:27 <hozer> nobody 'needs' a job
774 2011-04-06 15:46:35 <AtlasLGo> lfm: You are putting words in my mouth.
775 2011-04-06 15:46:40 <hozer> we *need* food, shelter, water
776 2011-04-06 15:46:47 <AtlasLGo> lfm: Workers shouldn't be forced to have a say in production.
777 2011-04-06 15:47:21 <hozer> how about this: Workers should have the free choice to participate in whatever level they choose
778 2011-04-06 15:47:38 <AtlasLGo> hozer: Well, depends on who owns the company and its assets.
779 2011-04-06 15:47:58 <kiba> hozer: it works in the other direction too
780 2011-04-06 15:48:11 <lfm> hozer: according to AtlasLGo only owners are smart enuf to run things
781 2011-04-06 15:48:32 <AtlasLGo> I never said that.
782 2011-04-06 15:48:42 <kiba> strawmanning your opponent is bad practice, lfm
783 2011-04-06 15:48:44 <hozer> well now, let's have AtlasLGo clear up the confusion then
784 2011-04-06 15:49:27 <AtlasLGo> lfm: You can't manage what you don't possess though. Of course, the founders could give shares to employees that grant them say in the company.
785 2011-04-06 15:49:32 <lfm> yup, having money, no matter how you got it, makes you smarter than anyone who has to work for a living
786 2011-04-06 15:49:59 <hozer> lfm: I don't understand what you're saying
787 2011-04-06 15:50:00 <AtlasLGo> No, owning part of the company holds you accountable to what you do with it.
788 2011-04-06 15:50:51 <AtlasLGo> Should you let the people who mow your lawn have a say in how you place your garden gnomes?
789 2011-04-06 15:50:54 <hozer> Ownership implies accountability, and responsibility (and liability) for the actions of what is owned
790 2011-04-06 15:52:01 <jaromil> c'mon, if chuck norris fights for the rights of workers, the world can become a better place!
791 2011-04-06 15:52:06 <hozer> There are whiners who own stuff and avoid responsbility, and there are whiners who do not own stuff, and whine about why they don't own stuff
792 2011-04-06 15:52:20 <hozer> let Chuck sort 'em out ;P
793 2011-04-06 15:52:26 <jaromil> go chuck go
794 2011-04-06 15:52:31 <lfm> and actually doing the work doesnt imply any responsibility? it seems it can be handed out however you want to set up your system
795 2011-04-06 15:52:57 <AtlasLGo> Work is voluntary. If you don't like how the company is run, don't work for them.
796 2011-04-06 15:53:11 <kiba> sometime people don't want the burden of having to worry aMarketplacebout if their enterprise is going die next week or tomorrow
797 2011-04-06 15:53:12 <lfm> and ownership is not voluntary?
798 2011-04-06 15:53:16 <AtlasLGo> You get paid for your service. If you don't like the pay, don't work.
799 2011-04-06 15:53:29 <AtlasLGo> lfm: It's fundamentally different.
800 2011-04-06 15:53:52 <lfm> if you dont like the way the factory is run, but some other factory
801 2011-04-06 15:53:58 <lfm> if you dont like the way the factory is run, buy some other factory
802 2011-04-06 15:53:59 <kiba> on the other hand
803 2011-04-06 15:54:05 <jaromil> mmm, i personally don't like to work. i hate work. and i'm also very picky on what i like to do :)
804 2011-04-06 15:54:10 <kiba> having a share in the company meant you have a stake in the company's survival
805 2011-04-06 15:54:26 <AtlasLGo> jaromil: Well, you have to sustain yourself as an organism some way.
806 2011-04-06 15:54:40 <jaromil> yea, my gf helps a lot on that :D
807 2011-04-06 15:54:45 <AtlasLGo> Work without a share is otherwise on a contract basis.
808 2011-04-06 15:55:10 <hozer> AtlasLGo: or you have to make the decision to let the organism die
809 2011-04-06 15:55:37 <AtlasLGo> hozer: It's not my choice.
810 2011-04-06 15:55:45 <AtlasLGo> The organism is reponsible for itself.
811 2011-04-06 15:55:47 <lfm> you are just describing how capitalism works, not how everything must work
812 2011-04-06 15:56:15 <hozer> AtlasLGo: if you're the owner, you have the responsibility to make the choice to continue operations, or close up shop and liquidate assets
813 2011-04-06 15:56:32 <AtlasLGo> Capitalism is just voluntary trade with one another. It's innate business sense. I see nothing wrong with it in a pure form.
814 2011-04-06 15:57:05 <AtlasLGo> hozer: Of course.
815 2011-04-06 15:57:22 <AtlasLGo> Capitalism also implies property.
816 2011-04-06 15:57:27 <AtlasLGo> You may not believe in that.
817 2011-04-06 15:57:45 <AtlasLGo> I certainly would like to own my own body.
818 2011-04-06 15:57:51 <AtlasLGo> ...but some seem to disagree.
819 2011-04-06 15:58:17 <hozer> HAH, I have a bumper sticker I picked up in eastern colorado.. it says "What will you do when the government owns you"
820 2011-04-06 15:58:21 <AtlasLGo> It apparently belongs to the poor and weak in the perspective of many.
821 2011-04-06 15:58:27 <lfm> actually your body owns you
822 2011-04-06 15:58:34 <AtlasLGo> Deep.
823 2011-04-06 15:58:52 <AtlasLGo> ...but I still have some control of the body.
824 2011-04-06 15:59:09 <AtlasLGo> My concious has to protect it.
825 2011-04-06 15:59:20 <AtlasLGo> With resources.
826 2011-04-06 15:59:24 <kiba> AtlasLGo: if the poor and the weak owns the factory, than they are more powerful than the "strongman"
827 2011-04-06 15:59:30 <lfm> sure, you can make it stop breathing --- for a little while
828 2011-04-06 15:59:39 <kiba> but of course, that's a bunch of nonsense. In any society, you will ahve "strongmen"
829 2011-04-06 15:59:40 <hozer> kiba: and by definition, they are not poor anymore
830 2011-04-06 15:59:42 <kiba> and alpha males
831 2011-04-06 15:59:55 <AtlasLGo> It's arbitrary labels.
832 2011-04-06 16:00:11 <AtlasLGo> In the end, it's just a matter of jealousy.
833 2011-04-06 16:00:21 <hozer> my take is we should be educating the weak and the poor on how they can choose to become powerful
834 2011-04-06 16:00:26 <lfm> kiba seems like you're in favor of despotism
835 2011-04-06 16:00:31 <jaromil> LOL TRUE <lfm> actually your body owns you
836 2011-04-06 16:00:34 <kiba> for the love of god
837 2011-04-06 16:00:38 <AtlasLGo> My take is just let things fail.
838 2011-04-06 16:00:40 <kiba> don't strawman your opponent!
839 2011-04-06 16:00:42 <AtlasLGo> We'll figure it out.