1 2011-04-07 01:03:20 <gribble> 117105
  2 2011-04-07 01:03:20 <Orbixx> ;;bc,blocks
  3 2011-04-07 01:21:39 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,stats
  4 2011-04-07 01:21:40 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117106 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1837 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 8 hours, 27 minutes, and 16 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 79133.68758521
  5 2011-04-07 01:22:57 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,gen 747870
  6 2011-04-07 01:22:59 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 747870 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 9.13484200277 BTC per day and 0.380618416782 BTC per hour.
  7 2011-04-07 01:23:08 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,gen 947870
  8 2011-04-07 01:23:09 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 947870 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 11.5777376939 BTC per day and 0.482405737248 BTC per hour.
  9 2011-04-07 01:23:24 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,gen 1000000
 10 2011-04-07 01:23:25 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 12.2144784558 BTC per day and 0.508936602327 BTC per hour.
 11 2011-04-07 01:25:12 <test12345> ;;bc,gen 10000
 12 2011-04-07 01:25:13 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 10000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 0.122144784558 BTC per day and 0.00508936602327 BTC per hour.
 13 2011-04-07 01:25:17 <test12345> ;;bc,gen 100000
 14 2011-04-07 01:25:23 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 100000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 1.22144784558 BTC per day and 0.0508936602327 BTC per hour.
 15 2011-04-07 01:26:45 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,prob 947870 4d
 16 2011-04-07 01:26:45 <gribble> 0.603951664374
 17 2011-04-07 01:26:54 <EPiSKiNG> wow
 18 2011-04-07 01:33:15 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,calc 947870
 19 2011-04-07 01:33:16 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 947870 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 4 days, 7 hours, 38 minutes, and 49 seconds
 20 2011-04-07 01:51:03 <isilion> hi there
 21 2011-04-07 01:51:19 <isilion> is very difficult to mantain a pool?
 22 2011-04-07 01:51:25 <isilion> and create it?
 23 2011-04-07 01:52:27 <isilion> Pirate Party - ES is interested. Spanish law admits at last that whe have our own golden river
 24 2011-04-07 01:52:38 <isilion> that we can*
 25 2011-04-07 01:59:19 <nanotube> isilion: it is pretty easy. just start a bitcoin node, and point people at it. if you want /superduper/ easy, then you could try the private pool service from xf2.org
 26 2011-04-07 02:00:37 <isilion> xf2.org have taxes?
 27 2011-04-07 02:00:58 <isilion> and we have to make it difficult
 28 2011-04-07 02:01:16 <isilion> people who mine MUST have a registered worker
 29 2011-04-07 02:01:44 <isilion> we want ppl mine for us
 30 2011-04-07 02:01:53 <isilion> most ppl will be our own ppl
 31 2011-04-07 02:02:00 <isilion> the ART mail list
 32 2011-04-07 02:02:09 <isilion> with powerful graphics
 33 2011-04-07 02:02:26 <isilion> and the DIP (informatic dept.) with clusters
 34 2011-04-07 02:02:31 <nanotube> yes, you pay xf2 a monthly fee for hosting your private pool.... you can ask jgarzik for more details.
 35 2011-04-07 02:02:34 <isilion> we expect 500Mhashes
 36 2011-04-07 02:02:54 <luke-jr> isilion: that's nothing
 37 2011-04-07 02:02:59 <nanotube> 500mhash is < one ati 5970 card
 38 2011-04-07 02:03:03 <isilion> so my calculatios are wrong
 39 2011-04-07 02:03:05 <nanotube> are you sure you mean 500mhash?
 40 2011-04-07 02:03:18 <isilion> i said that
 41 2011-04-07 02:03:21 <isilion> Mhashes
 42 2011-04-07 02:03:52 <luke-jr> isilion: a single 5970 can do more than 500 mhash
 43 2011-04-07 02:04:27 <isilion> we have more than 40 ppl between 2-40Mhash AFAIK
 44 2011-04-07 02:04:39 <isilion> but dunno the media
 45 2011-04-07 02:07:39 <nanotube> isilion: anyway, whatever your total hash rate is... you could either run a private pool, or just join one of the public ones...
 46 2011-04-07 02:07:51 <isilion> we need our own pool
 47 2011-04-07 02:08:00 <isilion> at name of a nice guy
 48 2011-04-07 02:08:04 <isilion> close to the party
 49 2011-04-07 02:08:50 <gribble> 82347.22294654
 50 2011-04-07 02:08:50 <Necr0s> ;;bc,diff
 51 2011-04-07 02:08:52 <isilion> and users MUST be identified
 52 2011-04-07 02:09:01 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
 53 2011-04-07 02:09:03 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117109 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1834 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 9 hours, 58 minutes, and 8 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 78636.72043502
 54 2011-04-07 02:09:04 <isilion> that is a must
 55 2011-04-07 02:09:17 <Necr0s> ;;bc,calc 992000
 56 2011-04-07 02:09:18 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 992000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 4 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes, and 10 seconds
 57 2011-04-07 02:09:36 <isilion> i saw poos where you register as a user and then you register miners (workers)
 58 2011-04-07 02:09:38 <isilion> for each client
 59 2011-04-07 02:09:44 <isilion> we want just that
 60 2011-04-07 02:09:49 <LobsterMan> http://mining.bitcoin.cz
 61 2011-04-07 02:09:51 <LobsterMan> ^ pool
 62 2011-04-07 02:09:54 <isilion> yes
 63 2011-04-07 02:10:02 <isilion> we need exactly to copy that model
 64 2011-04-07 02:10:08 <LobsterMan> lol
 65 2011-04-07 02:10:49 <jgarzik> isilion: https://xf2.org/services/
 66 2011-04-07 02:10:53 <isilion> is that "site" free?
 67 2011-04-07 02:11:05 <isilion> l(in terms of license and codes)
 68 2011-04-07 02:11:15 <LobsterMan> i dont think it is open source
 69 2011-04-07 02:12:17 <isilion> i mean the mining.bitcoin.cz
 70 2011-04-07 02:12:23 <isilion> i would ask the user also
 71 2011-04-07 02:12:28 <LobsterMan> ask slush, it's his site
 72 2011-04-07 02:12:34 <isilion> i ask here if you know
 73 2011-04-07 02:12:35 <isilion> ok
 74 2011-04-07 02:12:56 <isilion> ill keep an eye on him
 75 2011-04-07 02:13:51 <isilion> man its great
 76 2011-04-07 02:14:06 <isilion> Pirate accepts BTC donations alas!
 77 2011-04-07 02:14:18 <isilion> PiratA :P
 78 2011-04-07 02:14:40 <isilion> no more coins in the limbo!!
 79 2011-04-07 02:17:12 <nanotube> isilion: i don't think slush's pool is open source.
 80 2011-04-07 02:17:43 <isilion> perhaps we can talk
 81 2011-04-07 02:17:55 <isilion> i just need how it works exactly
 82 2011-04-07 02:18:11 <isilion> and perhaps he is good inttended :)
 83 2011-04-07 02:18:37 <nanotube> indeed, just stick around, slush will wake up eventually, isilion :)
 84 2011-04-07 02:18:51 <isilion> ill just send him a PM with my email (cya slush slush1 :???)
 85 2011-04-07 02:19:01 <isilion> nah its late
 86 2011-04-07 02:19:09 <isilion> im dizzy
 87 2011-04-07 02:19:42 <isilion> we have plenty of infrastructure inoperative :(
 88 2011-04-07 02:25:09 <toffoo> anyone know what happened to the links for the bitcoin.org website translated in other languages?
 89 2011-04-07 02:43:11 <Kiba> I required cadle
 90 2011-04-07 02:43:35 <nanotube> toffoo: bitcoin.org/index.php
 91 2011-04-07 02:44:08 <toffoo> perfect, many thanks
 92 2011-04-07 02:44:35 <nanotube> np :)
 93 2011-04-07 02:44:39 <Kiba> oops
 94 2011-04-07 02:44:40 <Kiba> wrong place
 95 2011-04-07 03:05:09 <motoki> helhello there
 96 2011-04-07 03:11:21 <gjs278> may not dns resolve right now, and I have to add a good spot for languages, but this is my idea for the redesign http://beta.garyshood.com/
 97 2011-04-07 03:11:26 <gjs278> if you don'
 98 2011-04-07 03:11:34 <gjs278> t get a bitcoin page, then the dns is still going for it for you
 99 2011-04-07 03:12:13 <gjs278> http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/6984/screenshotzj.png is a screenshot of the layout for those that cannot see it
100 2011-04-07 03:13:00 <gjs278> I've also done a huge cleanup of the code to validate it and split into appropriate files where necessary
101 2011-04-07 03:14:26 <gjs278> the site should be crossbrowser down to ie6
102 2011-04-07 03:54:08 <witten> what version of boost is required to build bitcoin?
103 2011-04-07 03:54:31 <Kiba> witten: you're on archlinux or something?
104 2011-04-07 03:54:37 <witten> debian
105 2011-04-07 03:55:28 <Kiba> linking to 1.46 is impossible it seems
106 2011-04-07 03:55:42 <dermoth> home|;;bc,calc 22877.12
107 2011-04-07 03:55:45 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 22877.12 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 25 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 25 minutes, and 28 seconds
108 2011-04-07 03:55:54 <witten> Kiba: what version is possible? :)
109 2011-04-07 03:56:40 <slush1> isilion: hi, I just wake up, but I'm hurry
110 2011-04-07 03:56:54 <slush1> isilion: long history here, please write me to info@bitcoin.cz, thanks
111 2011-04-07 03:57:19 <dermoth> home|;;bc,gen 160000
112 2011-04-07 03:57:19 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 160000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 1.95431655294 BTC per day and 0.0814298563723 BTC per hour.
113 2011-04-07 03:57:46 <xvilka> hi! who working on QBitcoin https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/QBitcoin ?
114 2011-04-07 03:58:24 <Kiba> MagicalTux
115 2011-04-07 03:58:25 <MagicalTux> me
116 2011-04-07 03:58:51 <Kiba> MagicalTux: it seems that the domain transfer for kibabase.com is not initialized yet
117 2011-04-07 03:58:54 <MagicalTux> well, I did until I had to start handling mtgox, which made qbitcoin late, and then some earthquake came up to make me even more late :(
118 2011-04-07 03:59:01 <MagicalTux> Kiba, did you confirm the mail that was sent to you ?
119 2011-04-07 03:59:11 <Kiba> oh!
120 2011-04-07 03:59:24 <MagicalTux> from "icann-transfers"
121 2011-04-07 03:59:43 <MagicalTux> send you a msg in private
122 2011-04-07 04:00:17 <xvilka> MagicalTux: i want to help
123 2011-04-07 04:01:18 <xvilka> ah. you talking not about QBitcoin
124 2011-04-07 04:01:22 <xvilka> :(
125 2011-04-07 04:01:45 <MagicalTux> xvilka, I'm talking about QBitcoin
126 2011-04-07 04:01:51 <MagicalTux> unfortunately right now the project is "on hold"
127 2011-04-07 04:02:01 <MagicalTux> until I finish all I have to do with mtgox
128 2011-04-07 04:04:40 <xvilka> ah. hint me when you want to start
129 2011-04-07 04:05:00 <xvilka> i can help developing project
130 2011-04-07 04:05:11 <xvilka> i'm dont like wxWidgets, really
131 2011-04-07 04:07:38 <isilion> thanks slush
132 2011-04-07 04:07:54 <isilion> tnx slush1
133 2011-04-07 04:08:34 <xvilka> MagicalTux: if you interested about my code exp. - see coreboot, droid-developers.org.
134 2011-04-07 04:09:44 <MagicalTux> mh
135 2011-04-07 04:10:19 <witten> EXCEPTION: 22DbRunRecoveryException
136 2011-04-07 04:10:24 <witten> that can't be good
137 2011-04-07 04:11:24 <MagicalTux> witten, bad version of db?
138 2011-04-07 04:11:26 <Diablo-D3> sounds like you compiled with the wrong version of db
139 2011-04-07 04:11:30 <MagicalTux> bdb
140 2011-04-07 04:11:39 <witten> MagicalTux: possibly
141 2011-04-07 04:11:48 <witten> what version should I be compiling with?
142 2011-04-07 04:11:55 <Diablo-D3> 4.7 only.
143 2011-04-07 04:12:00 <MagicalTux> 4.7 or 4.8
144 2011-04-07 04:12:05 <Diablo-D3> NOT 4.8.
145 2011-04-07 04:12:05 <witten> ok :)
146 2011-04-07 04:12:06 <MagicalTux> just make sure to keep the same version
147 2011-04-07 04:12:09 <Diablo-D3> do not use 4.8
148 2011-04-07 04:12:14 <MagicalTux> Diablo-D3, I compile with 4.8 without problems :D
149 2011-04-07 04:12:23 <Diablo-D3> MagicalTux: your files wont work in the standard client.
150 2011-04-07 04:12:29 <MagicalTux> yes, I know
151 2011-04-07 04:12:31 <MagicalTux> and I don't use it anyway
152 2011-04-07 04:12:37 <jgarzik> that's the most important thing -- keep the same version of db
153 2011-04-07 04:12:52 <witten> looks like I built with 4.6, so that'd explain it
154 2011-04-07 04:12:53 <MagicalTux> anyway 4.7 is best
155 2011-04-07 04:13:02 <jgarzik> data format-wise, db should be upwards compatible
156 2011-04-07 04:13:21 <MagicalTux> it's the "official" choice, and probably the only supported one
157 2011-04-07 04:13:26 <MagicalTux> if you do not use 4.7, you won't get support :p
158 2011-04-07 04:14:28 <Diablo-D3> its upwards compatible
159 2011-04-07 04:14:32 <Diablo-D3> but not downwards
160 2011-04-07 04:14:36 <witten> so the wallet is bdb?
161 2011-04-07 04:14:39 <Diablo-D3> and merely loading the file in a new bdb upgrades it
162 2011-04-07 04:15:46 <MagicalTux> witten, yes, it's bdb
163 2011-04-07 04:15:51 <witten> ok thanks
164 2011-04-07 04:16:37 <witten> it seems like dependency version information should be in a README/INSTALL file
165 2011-04-07 04:17:43 <witten> oh n/m, I found build-unix.txt
166 2011-04-07 04:18:24 <MagicalTux> :D
167 2011-04-07 04:18:38 <MagicalTux> good ol' RTFM
168 2011-04-07 04:19:11 <witten> looked for uppercase filenames and didn't find any.. assumed there were no docs :)
169 2011-04-07 04:19:21 <Diablo-D3> yes, satoshi is a windows faggot.
170 2011-04-07 04:19:45 <jgarzik> maybe we need a README.LOWERCASE
171 2011-04-07 04:20:09 <isilion> WHY SHOULD WE NEED SUCH A THING!!!???
172 2011-04-07 04:20:21 <Diablo-D3> you know what the most disgusting thing windows users do?
173 2011-04-07 04:20:26 <Diablo-D3> they end text files in .txt
174 2011-04-07 04:21:18 <[Tycho]> :)
175 2011-04-07 04:21:29 <isilion> :P
176 2011-04-07 04:21:51 <witten> yay I finally got it built and running
177 2011-04-07 04:22:00 <isilion> lowercase have connotative meanings
178 2011-04-07 04:22:03 <witten> Diablo-D3: text files full of DOS newlines
179 2011-04-07 04:22:07 <isilion> *bad* ones
180 2011-04-07 04:22:26 <isilion> imagine someday
181 2011-04-07 04:22:35 <isilion> someone ilegalize the coin
182 2011-04-07 04:22:38 <Diablo-D3> witten: at least I can fix that
183 2011-04-07 04:22:39 <Diablo-D3> perl++
184 2011-04-07 04:22:57 <gjs278> you use perl to remove dos newlines instead of dos2unix?
185 2011-04-07 04:23:13 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: dos2unix is written in perl
186 2011-04-07 04:23:17 <witten> heh
187 2011-04-07 04:23:22 <gjs278> mined blown
188 2011-04-07 04:23:31 <gjs278> not mine
189 2011-04-07 04:23:45 <[Tycho]> gjs278, works fine in IE6, but the lower part starting at "Bitcoin Project 2009-2011" seems to have default background color instead of white.
190 2011-04-07 04:23:55 <gjs278> yeah
191 2011-04-07 04:24:01 <gjs278> that's the transparent png error
192 2011-04-07 04:24:04 <gjs278> there's a js file to fix that actually
193 2011-04-07 04:24:11 <[Tycho]> Where is png ?
194 2011-04-07 04:25:05 <gjs278> the top logo has the slightly gray background on the logo for ie6
195 2011-04-07 04:25:22 <[Tycho]> No, i'm talking about the bottom.
196 2011-04-07 04:25:32 <gjs278> oh ok
197 2011-04-07 04:25:40 <[Tycho]> http://tr00.ru/site.png
198 2011-04-07 04:25:56 <gjs278> hmm
199 2011-04-07 04:26:10 <idnar> bah, screw IE6
200 2011-04-07 04:26:16 <gjs278> I can respect a guy who still has ie6 installed
201 2011-04-07 04:26:25 <[Tycho]> No, it's not the problem of IE6.
202 2011-04-07 04:26:26 <idnar> it's not worth chasing pixels for IE6
203 2011-04-07 04:26:47 <Diablo-D3> ie6 isnt even used anymore
204 2011-04-07 04:26:48 <gjs278> that's weird, my 6 doesnt have that
205 2011-04-07 04:26:58 <[Tycho]> It's just default background color that's NOT guaranted to be white.
206 2011-04-07 04:27:06 <gjs278> http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/576/screenshotwac.png
207 2011-04-07 04:27:07 <gjs278> yeah
208 2011-04-07 04:27:19 <Diablo-D3> er
209 2011-04-07 04:27:19 <[Tycho]> If someone uses colorful windows scheme will have different color there.
210 2011-04-07 04:27:25 <Diablo-D3> why is there a png background there anyhow?
211 2011-04-07 04:27:32 <gjs278> nah, not at the bottom
212 2011-04-07 04:27:37 <gjs278> I thought thats what he was talking about
213 2011-04-07 04:27:46 <Diablo-D3> there should be no images on that page at all
214 2011-04-07 04:27:51 <gjs278> yeah there arent any
215 2011-04-07 04:28:14 <idnar> oh right, the stylesheet sets color on body, but not background-color
216 2011-04-07 04:28:15 <idnar> fail
217 2011-04-07 04:28:28 <gjs278> [Tycho] check now
218 2011-04-07 04:28:38 <[Tycho]> Fixed now.
219 2011-04-07 04:28:41 <gjs278> ok
220 2011-04-07 04:28:55 <gjs278> I have to fix the logo background and thats it then for 6 I believe
221 2011-04-07 04:29:19 <[Tycho]> I don't have JS enabled but i believe that it works :)
222 2011-04-07 04:29:38 <gjs278> the only js was that twitter feed
223 2011-04-07 04:29:59 <gjs278> it got nuked into oblivion for constantly making it look like the page was loading
224 2011-04-07 04:30:18 <[Tycho]> The PNG fixer.
225 2011-04-07 04:30:40 <gjs278> oh yeah, the png fixer is js
226 2011-04-07 04:30:47 <gjs278> will be at least once I find the one I use
227 2011-04-07 04:33:26 <gjs278> okay, that's in now
228 2011-04-07 04:38:53 <gjs278> language links added
229 2011-04-07 04:42:16 <witten> what's a good feature / bug / area of the codebase for a new dev to start on?
230 2011-04-07 04:42:28 <witten> I'm looking through the issues on github right now
231 2011-04-07 04:44:30 <gjs278> let people have an option to where their wallet is located
232 2011-04-07 04:44:45 <gjs278> so it can be /tmp/wallet.dat instead of ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat if they want it there
233 2011-04-07 04:45:19 <witten> gjs278: I think I saw a ticket for that..
234 2011-04-07 04:45:42 <gjs278> could be cool
235 2011-04-07 04:45:49 <witten> #68
236 2011-04-07 04:45:57 <gjs278> people could put them in their dropboxes then and not have to worry about backing them up all of the time
237 2011-04-07 04:46:07 <gjs278> although they should back it up somewhere else as well for safe keeping of course
238 2011-04-07 04:46:29 <idnar> gjs278: is the file updated atomically?
239 2011-04-07 04:46:52 <witten> idnar: according to the comments in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues#issue/68 it's not
240 2011-04-07 04:47:40 <idnar> ah, guess gavin is ahead of me :)
241 2011-04-07 04:48:58 <witten> why would you need to specify a wallet location if you can already specify a -datadir?
242 2011-04-07 04:50:45 <gjs278> who knows
243 2011-04-07 04:50:53 <gjs278> someone somewhere will want to do it though
244 2011-04-07 04:51:08 <gjs278> maybe so they don't have to copy the block chain
245 2011-04-07 04:51:10 <JFK911> yeah
246 2011-04-07 04:51:14 <JFK911> i keep my wallet on the internet
247 2011-04-07 04:51:27 <JFK911> so i can reach it from anywhere
248 2011-04-07 04:52:52 <witten> JFK911: but then why not keep your whole datadir on the internet?
249 2011-04-07 04:53:21 <witten> I guess I don't know what all is kept in there
250 2011-04-07 04:53:24 <gjs278> because you'd have to read that blockchain
251 2011-04-07 04:53:25 <JFK911> thats a waste of bandwitdh.  the block chain doesnt need to be there.
252 2011-04-07 04:53:27 <gjs278> and the blockchain is huge
253 2011-04-07 04:53:51 <witten> ah ok
254 2011-04-07 04:53:53 <gjs278> not sure how smart dropbox would be, it might decide it needs to download all 110mb of it or something stupid
255 2011-04-07 04:53:56 <JFK911> anyone will give you the block chain, you just have to wait a little for it
256 2011-04-07 04:54:48 <witten> naive question.. if we've got this distributed P2P network, why does the entire block chain have to be stored on each node?
257 2011-04-07 04:54:57 <JFK911> for his own reference
258 2011-04-07 04:55:21 <JFK911> and: it helps persistence
259 2011-04-07 04:55:24 <witten> is it too slow to query the network and cache as needed?
260 2011-04-07 04:55:35 <gjs278> the blockchain is the cache
261 2011-04-07 04:55:46 <gjs278> apparently you need all of it
262 2011-04-07 04:55:46 <JFK911> the more copies of the real blocks that are out there that everyone agree on, the safer your past transactions are
263 2011-04-07 04:56:09 <JFK911> because to override the blockchain the fake blockchain has to have more copies floating around
264 2011-04-07 04:56:21 <JFK911> that wasn't very articulate, sorry.
265 2011-04-07 04:56:24 <gjs278> witten, to ruin all of your fun, all you have to do is mess with init.cpp to add the option, and then look in util.cpp for string GetConfigFile() and copy that to make your getwallet
266 2011-04-07 04:56:29 <witten> I'm just thinking about mobile devices that won't want to store a couple of hundred megs.. I'm sure this has been discussed on the forums
267 2011-04-07 04:56:56 <witten> JFK911: I get what you're saying
268 2011-04-07 04:56:58 <gjs278> and then write it to be safe and check for the lock file or whatever they're talking about on the issue page
269 2011-04-07 04:56:58 <witten> gjs278: thanks :)
270 2011-04-07 04:57:11 <JFK911> im not sure a mobile device will have as much power to process the crypto
271 2011-04-07 04:57:37 <JFK911> a node in the network needs to do work from time to time to support it
272 2011-04-07 04:59:55 <idnar> JFK911: doing a little crypto is fine, downloading and verifying the entire block chain is another thing altogether
273 2011-04-07 05:00:35 <JFK911> verifying new blocks or whatever it does
274 2011-04-07 05:00:43 <gjs278> that's like 1/20th of someone's at&t data plan
275 2011-04-07 05:00:59 <JFK911> and if the device loses connectivity, it has to catch up on blocks
276 2011-04-07 05:01:20 <JFK911> so it's probably better to have a remote control bitcoin client operating on some machinery in a fixed location
277 2011-04-07 05:02:11 <theorbtwo> Aye.  Talk to your backend server, which is on a real machine, using the JSON API over SSL.
278 2011-04-07 05:02:59 <theorbtwo> Preferably SSL with well-known certificates.  Closer to the ssh model then the https model.
279 2011-04-07 05:03:09 <idnar> or just use ssh :)
280 2011-04-07 05:03:29 <JFK911> Anyway I've only seen people laundering money and selling drugs with bitcoins, and those are things you can do from home anyway.
281 2011-04-07 05:03:34 <idnar> hahaha
282 2011-04-07 05:11:34 <theorbtwo> Somewhat more seriously, accepting bitcoin without waiting for at lest one confirmation seems like a bad idea, which limits the viability of mobile transactions.
283 2011-04-07 05:12:04 <gjs278> it doesnt take that long
284 2011-04-07 05:12:15 <theorbtwo> gjs278: Ten minutes, for the first one.
285 2011-04-07 05:12:32 <gjs278> imagine how long it took to check credit cards in the 1800's
286 2011-04-07 05:12:43 <gjs278> they had to fly the number all the way to the card company and back
287 2011-04-07 05:13:23 <theorbtwo> If I go to the counter and buy a cup of coffee, I don't want to wait ten minutes for the next block to be generated before they make it.
288 2011-04-07 05:13:51 <theorbtwo> gjs278: In the 90s, the done thing was to take a carbon copy of the card, which was then shipped to the card processor by mail.
289 2011-04-07 05:14:08 <theorbtwo> However, as soon as you took a carbon copy of a valid card, the processor would pay you.
290 2011-04-07 05:19:07 <gjs278> theorbtwo: if I ever buy coffee with bitcoins I'll hit myself and just wake up from the dream
291 2011-04-07 05:19:20 <gjs278> fuck waiting 10 minutes
292 2011-04-07 05:22:20 <jgarzik> theorbtwo: see "snack machine thread"
293 2011-04-07 05:22:34 <jgarzik> theorbtwo: for small amounts, you should not have to wait 10 minutes
294 2011-04-07 05:23:39 <gjs278> jgarzik http://www.bitcoin.org/ or http://beta.garyshood.com/ your vote is final
295 2011-04-07 05:26:11 <jgarzik> gjs278: bitcoin.org.  I don't like the way a big block of little text is followed by two columns of larger text, then smaller text again, on garyshood.com.  Makes it seem fat in the middle.
296 2011-04-07 05:26:52 <Kiba> do work do work do work until asleep!
297 2011-04-07 05:27:42 <[Tycho]> Oh, it's not two columns already...
298 2011-04-07 05:27:53 <gjs278> okay, I made it smaller now
299 2011-04-07 05:28:04 <gjs278> back to 640 width
300 2011-04-07 05:29:37 <gjs278> jgarzik: recheck me
301 2011-04-07 05:30:03 <gjs278> also unbolded
302 2011-04-07 05:33:02 <gjs278> made it all consistent now
303 2011-04-07 05:36:55 <gjs278> actually 800 looks better I think
304 2011-04-07 05:37:00 <gjs278> but I made all of the fonts the same size
305 2011-04-07 05:37:11 <jgarzik> gjs278: now I like your version better
306 2011-04-07 05:37:16 <gjs278> ok
307 2011-04-07 05:38:05 <jgarzik> gjs278: unfortunately, the other page does have a high value of "me click big video window yum"
308 2011-04-07 05:38:07 <jgarzik> ;)
309 2011-04-07 05:38:17 <gjs278> yeah I know
310 2011-04-07 05:38:34 <gjs278> I felt like giving that job to http://www.weusecoins.com/
311 2011-04-07 06:40:05 <sipa> ;;bc,diff
312 2011-04-07 06:40:11 <gribble> 82347.22294654
313 2011-04-07 06:48:51 <genjix> someone mentioned before there was a single address with a huge amount of money in it.
314 2011-04-07 06:48:57 <genjix> how much was that sum?
315 2011-04-07 06:49:29 <sipa> 250000 BTC
316 2011-04-07 06:50:55 <genjix> cool
317 2011-04-07 06:50:56 <genjix> http://blockexplorer.com/address/12C9c9VQLMrLi4Ffzq2wDvwrKnUPaAaNFp
318 2011-04-07 06:53:41 <gjs278> the transaction fee ruins it
319 2011-04-07 06:54:42 <genjix> someone sent him 0.01 btc for laughs
320 2011-04-07 06:55:13 <genjix> sipa: this is bigger, http://blockexplorer.com/address/1AYtnRppWM7tWQaVLpm7TvcHKrjKxgCRvX
321 2011-04-07 06:55:16 <genjix> it has 400k
322 2011-04-07 06:55:37 <sipa> genjix: no, it has 0 :)
323 2011-04-07 06:55:49 <genjix> i mean it used to have 400k at one point
324 2011-04-07 06:55:55 <gjs278> stop postng my address pls
325 2011-04-07 06:56:13 <gjs278> I put it all on red... I'm typing this from the library
326 2011-04-07 06:56:45 <genjix> lies, red always wins
327 2011-04-07 07:06:02 <PKSAce> genjix, do you have a skype or aim?  Looking to get back involved with some bitcoin projects (can't do bitcoinvegas though :< ), and I have some questions.
328 2011-04-07 07:07:56 <genjix> hey PKSAce
329 2011-04-07 07:08:04 <genjix> yeah let me install it
330 2011-04-07 07:08:08 <genjix> zgenjix
331 2011-04-07 07:08:14 <PKSAce> for skype?
332 2011-04-07 07:08:32 <genjix> yep that's my name
333 2011-04-07 07:08:44 <PKSAce> sweet. tia.
334 2011-04-07 07:15:48 <topi`> genjix: are you still around? i'm recovering from a debilitating illness
335 2011-04-07 07:17:35 <genjix> yeah topi`
336 2011-04-07 07:17:39 <genjix> here for 2 weeks
337 2011-04-07 07:19:45 <topi`> oh!
338 2011-04-07 07:19:52 <topi`> then we need to show you around the places :)
339 2011-04-07 07:22:31 <genjix> sweet
340 2011-04-07 07:24:19 <topi`> i still haven't finished my piece on the future of bitcoin, et
341 2011-04-07 07:24:25 <topi`> yet
342 2011-04-07 07:24:28 <topi`> 07/04/2011 11:24:21, 59a9d1f7, accepted
343 2011-04-07 07:24:36 <topi`> i'm just looking at the output of the miner!
344 2011-04-07 07:24:48 <topi`> totally perplexed at the obscure hashes
345 2011-04-07 07:25:31 <att> hello, i am at first use bitcoin and try to run it from console on my server, where I find or set my address?
346 2011-04-07 07:25:48 <genjix> att: bitcoind getaccountaddress ""
347 2011-04-07 07:26:02 <MagicalTux> gah
348 2011-04-07 07:26:15 <genjix> "i just sent bitcoins to japan"
349 2011-04-07 07:26:19 <MagicalTux> genjix, :D
350 2011-04-07 07:26:21 <nathan7> :D
351 2011-04-07 07:26:24 <genjix> "woah" "woah" "soo cool"
352 2011-04-07 07:26:34 <genjix> mumble mumble
353 2011-04-07 07:27:04 <MagicalTux> genjix, all bitcoins received on those will be converted to JPY and sent to the official japanese governement donations bank account
354 2011-04-07 07:28:18 <MagicalTux> I'll transfer that, and more
355 2011-04-07 07:28:38 <att> 2genjix thanks a lot
356 2011-04-07 07:32:02 <mrb__> att: technically, the command given to you *creates* a new address, which is recommended everytime you want to receive payment. to simply get your existing address(es) run: bitcoind getaddressesbyaccount ''
357 2011-04-07 07:33:01 <tcatm> getaccountaddress only creates a new address when a transaction is received
358 2011-04-07 07:34:34 <mrb__> it creates an address and stores the key in wallet.dat
359 2011-04-07 07:35:14 <topi`> remember to back up your wallet.dat after every transaction!
360 2011-04-07 07:36:26 <tcatm> mrb__: nope. only when the address is actually used to receive coins. rpc.cpp:347
361 2011-04-07 07:36:57 <topi`> if slush's pool does not support long polling, how many minutes do I except to "lose out" on crunching already-submitted blocks?
362 2011-04-07 07:37:21 <topi`> at 1.7Mhash/sec, how long does it take to crunch one of those basic blocks of difficulty 1?
363 2011-04-07 07:37:34 <sipa> there are no "basic blocks"
364 2011-04-07 07:37:42 <sipa> your client just keeps on trying different hashes
365 2011-04-07 07:37:57 <topi`> yep, but in certain "blocks" nevertheless
366 2011-04-07 07:38:02 <sipa> no
367 2011-04-07 07:38:14 <topi`> because trying out only 1 hash happens in a microsec
368 2011-04-07 07:38:18 <ersi> topi`: Stale work sucks ass
369 2011-04-07 07:38:33 <sipa> topi`: it increments a nonce, and tries the next one
370 2011-04-07 07:38:42 <ersi> It's a waste of your and the networks time :)
371 2011-04-07 07:38:54 <topi`> is there any "bitcoin dictionary" that would define 'nonce' and such odd concepts?
372 2011-04-07 07:39:00 <slush> topi`: with default settings, max 5 second
373 2011-04-07 07:39:05 <sipa> it's explained on the wiki i think
374 2011-04-07 07:39:06 <topi`> slush: thanks
375 2011-04-07 07:39:21 <ersi> "In security engineering, nonce is an abbreviation of number used once (it is similar in spirit to a nonce word)."
376 2011-04-07 07:39:35 <topi`> ok
377 2011-04-07 07:39:43 <sipa> topi`: there are 4 billion nonces to try, so your client definetely needs to ask for new work after 42 minutes in your case
378 2011-04-07 07:39:48 <sipa> topi`: but it does so much more often
379 2011-04-07 07:40:14 <sipa> and every time it asks for new data, it gets a completely new range of hashes to try
380 2011-04-07 07:40:22 <mrb__> tcatm: well it marks the key as "reserved" in the wallet, which is what I meant by "creating" an address
381 2011-04-07 07:40:31 <mrb__> CWalletDB::ReserveKeyFromKeyPool
382 2011-04-07 07:41:44 <topi`> I have just basically kept on Ctrl-c'ing the miner when the pool starts to work on a new block
383 2011-04-07 07:41:48 <topi`> and restarted the miner
384 2011-04-07 07:42:02 <topi`> I wonder if it is necessary at all?
385 2011-04-07 07:42:14 <sipa> topi`: no need
386 2011-04-07 07:42:31 <sipa> it will get new data the next time it asks, which happens every few seconds
387 2011-04-07 07:42:41 <topi`> because every second round (on avg) I get no reward at all, which makes me think it is crunching on a stale block
388 2011-04-07 07:42:51 <sipa> it is
389 2011-04-07 07:43:56 <att> how to check work client correctly or not? I use default config file, open port on firewall
390 2011-04-07 07:44:42 <att> if need I send to chat getinfo answer
391 2011-04-07 07:44:59 <topi`> att: check that the client starts downloading blocks
392 2011-04-07 07:46:01 <att> paramter "blocks" changing
393 2011-04-07 07:46:14 <topi`> good news, it needs to download 117000 blocks
394 2011-04-07 07:46:27 <att> thaks a lot
395 2011-04-07 07:46:33 <att> I am waiting
396 2011-04-07 07:48:05 <topi`> is there any way to make the first download of blocks faster? has there been any analysis on where the time actually goes? bandwidth, latency or other bottleneck?
397 2011-04-07 07:48:42 <topi`> I start to think of latency if the blocks come from afar (say, 8 hops)
398 2011-04-07 07:52:28 <sipa> connect to a fast node for the initial block download
399 2011-04-07 07:52:53 <sipa> you can use mine ("-addnode 178.18.90.41" on the command line)
400 2011-04-07 07:57:58 <UukGoblin> w00t, bitomat added already :-]
401 2011-04-07 08:03:59 <tcatm> topi`: most time is spent verifying blocks and transactions
402 2011-04-07 08:04:19 <tcatm> my python client that does not verify anything can download the whole chain without a few minutes
403 2011-04-07 08:04:26 <tcatm> within*
404 2011-04-07 08:05:52 <genjix> topi`: only download the headers and not the transactions.
405 2011-04-07 08:05:53 <Bennt> hi
406 2011-04-07 08:24:44 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * rdb97e24bfd2f intersango/DATABASE: new column for bank_statement showing status of parsing. http://tinyurl.com/3rqxqoo
407 2011-04-07 08:24:48 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * rc623fbd5abb2 intersango/cron/bankd/parse_deposits.php: skip marked deposit lines. http://tinyurl.com/4ychl56
408 2011-04-07 08:25:39 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 4000
409 2011-04-07 08:25:41 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 2 years, 41 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, and 57 seconds
410 2011-04-07 08:28:07 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,estimate
411 2011-04-07 08:28:08 <gribble> 84208.80654079
412 2011-04-07 08:49:51 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * rac0e3bb40104 intersango/cron/bankd/parse_deposits.php: BUGFIX: transactions dont allow LAST_INSERT_ID() http://tinyurl.com/3lwuzk6
413 2011-04-07 08:59:02 <xelister> ----------------------------------
414 2011-04-07 08:59:10 <xelister> REPORT ABOUT NEW bitcoin.org PAGE
415 2011-04-07 08:59:11 <xelister> ----------------------------------
416 2011-04-07 08:59:14 <xelister> 1. it sucks dicks
417 2011-04-07 08:59:22 <xelister> 2. even download is less visible
418 2011-04-07 08:59:24 <xelister> ----------------------------------
419 2011-04-07 08:59:59 <xelister> This appendix ammends yesterdays report that focused on flash video levels of faggotry/geek-coolness (hint: its the former)
420 2011-04-07 09:00:38 <xelister> *click* bitcoin.org
421 2011-04-07 09:00:44 <xelister> *click* Download from SF
422 2011-04-07 09:00:50 <xelister> *redirect*
423 2011-04-07 09:01:03 <xelister> *click* files
424 2011-04-07 09:01:10 <xelister> *click* bitcoin
425 2011-04-07 09:01:21 <xelister> *click* bitcoin-0.3.20
426 2011-04-07 09:01:34 <xelister> found it <3  !
427 2011-04-07 09:01:38 <xelister> *click* bitcoin-0.3.20.2-win32-setup.exe
428 2011-04-07 09:01:46 <xelister> *waiting/redirects*
429 2011-04-07 09:01:52 <xelister> FINALLY THE DOWNLOAD o/
430 2011-04-07 09:01:54 <idnar> Thank you for choosing #bitcoin-dev. All our operators are currently unavailable; please be patient, your call is valuable to us, and you will be directed to the next operator as soon as they become available.
431 2011-04-07 09:01:56 <xelister> New page is ultimate shit.
432 2011-04-07 09:02:43 <idnar> xelister: why can't you just click the main Download link on the SF page, instead of navigating files?
433 2011-04-07 09:02:47 <xelister> it takes as long if I want to get the .exe on linux
434 2011-04-07 09:02:59 <xelister> and SF main page shows me .tgz
435 2011-04-07 09:03:06 <idnar> oh, hmm
436 2011-04-07 09:03:20 <idnar> I wonder if that's fixable
437 2011-04-07 09:03:32 <xelister> ON OLD PAGE THE  MOST IMPORTANT THING  (DOWNLOAD OF BITCOIN!)  WAS x8 FASTER, it took ONE CLICK !!!!
438 2011-04-07 09:04:00 <xelister> just link to latest .exe and .tgz and .bin directly from bitcoin.org/ like in good-old previous page!   or restore previous page.
439 2011-04-07 09:06:23 <BurtyB> hmm yes new website does look a little errr interesting :/
440 2011-04-07 09:14:16 <xelister> sirius-m: thank you for your work, but realllly pleaaaase make it keep the good ideas from old version :)
441 2011-04-07 09:16:43 <sirius-m> xelister: how do you like this: http://beta.garyshood.com/
442 2011-04-07 09:18:42 <sirius-m> the intro text could be shorter but otherwise looks good
443 2011-04-07 09:20:02 <xelister> sirius-m: better
444 2011-04-07 09:30:32 <edcba> i like beta.garyshood.com too
445 2011-04-07 09:31:02 <edcba> but i think it should aways be precised that there will be 21M *divisible* bitcoin
446 2011-04-07 09:32:00 <edcba> hmm bitcoin faucet is empty ?
447 2011-04-07 09:32:12 <edcba> 0.01 ?TC available
448 2011-04-07 09:35:35 <ForceDestroyer> Nothing happening on the android front?
449 2011-04-07 09:40:08 <jav> hrm, I still don't understand under what conditions I can send unconfirmed coins right away (?) ... sometimes it works, sometimes I get "insufficient fund" error from the RPC interface
450 2011-04-07 09:46:10 <sipa> if they result from a spend-to-self, immediately
451 2011-04-07 09:46:15 <sipa> otherwise after 1 confirmation
452 2011-04-07 09:58:29 <jav> sipa: but sometimes I can send something from my account at mybitcoin to a local wallet and then send it back right away
453 2011-04-07 10:00:00 <sipa> with 0 confirmations?
454 2011-04-07 10:00:07 <jav> yes
455 2011-04-07 10:01:32 <jav> so getbalance shows zero, getbalance with minconf=0 shows the coins and then sending them using the RPC interface sometimes works
456 2011-04-07 10:04:20 <jav> in any case... I'm working on a simple online wallet service and am trying to decide whether I offer users the option to send 0-confirmation coins or not
457 2011-04-07 10:05:07 <jav> I would really like to, to sort of give an impression of how "speedy" Bitcoin can be... but if that only works some of the time, that's not very reliable
458 2011-04-07 10:06:08 <jav> but maybe I have to play it safe then and wait for a confirmation before allowing the user to send coins
459 2011-04-07 10:07:14 <sipa> offer it as a paying option
460 2011-04-07 10:07:37 <sipa> "For 1% fee, all transactions up to ... are cleared immediately!"
461 2011-04-07 10:12:38 <Teppy> Sipa - I'm working on something similar...
462 2011-04-07 10:13:39 <Teppy> What I'm planning to do is make two JSON commands at once - a getreceivedbylabel with 0 confirms and a getreceivedbylabel with 1 confirm
463 2011-04-07 10:13:56 <Teppy> Trying to figure out the syntax for that, if Bitcoin supports multiple calls at once.
464 2011-04-07 10:13:59 <Teppy> Anyone know?
465 2011-04-07 10:14:56 <jav> Teppy: why do you need to make them at once? just do one after the other... or are you worried that for some reason the information will change just in that moment between the two calls?
466 2011-04-07 10:15:42 <Teppy> I want the calls to be atomic.
467 2011-04-07 10:16:10 <Teppy> Performance issue if they're not.
468 2011-04-07 10:16:16 <tcatm> that's not supported
469 2011-04-07 10:17:19 <Teppy> Really? I'm surprised that method isn't pretty much standard. (The 0 conf/1 conf thing.)
470 2011-04-07 10:20:27 <jav> I tried to modify the source to send out transactions no matter how many confirmations the coins have (tried that by calling SelectCoinsMinConf with nConfTheirs = 0 and nConfMine = 0) ... but that didn't work in all cases either, any idea why not?
471 2011-04-07 10:21:03 <sipa> define "didn't work"
472 2011-04-07 10:21:04 <sipa> ?
473 2011-04-07 10:21:15 <jav> I would sometimes still get the "insufficient funds" error message
474 2011-04-07 10:21:43 <sipa> that means you needed a fee, and didn't have enough to pay it
475 2011-04-07 10:23:06 <jav> ok, how do I hack the client to never try to include a few (except for oversized transactions) ... I just want to get it out there and hope some generous miner with a no-fee policy will pick it up eventually
476 2011-04-07 10:24:34 <LtBrenton> ;;bc,stats
477 2011-04-07 10:24:35 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117175 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1768 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 23 hours, 47 minutes, and 28 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 84646.95323124
478 2011-04-07 10:24:56 <LtBrenton> @_@ holy crapnuts
479 2011-04-07 10:25:19 <jav> also, sipa: my understanding from reading the source is that if a fee was required, the error message would say "This is an oversized transaction" regardless of the reason of the fee
480 2011-04-07 10:25:58 <topi`> a lot of mining going on
481 2011-04-07 10:26:04 <sipa> if (nPrice + nFeeRequired > GetBalance())
482 2011-04-07 10:26:07 <topi`> or maybe it's the new graphics cards from ATI :)
483 2011-04-07 10:26:34 <jav> sipa: exactly... but I'm getting "Insufficient funds", not "oversized transaction"
484 2011-04-07 10:27:10 <sipa> if (nPrice + nTransactionFee > GetBalance())
485 2011-04-07 10:27:13 <sipa> {
486 2011-04-07 10:27:18 <sipa> Error(_("Insufficient funds"));
487 2011-04-07 10:28:28 <jav> sipa: ok, but nTransactionFee is set to zero, isn't it? I didn't change that
488 2011-04-07 10:30:38 <tcatm> http://bitcoincharts.com/~tcatm/bitcoin.org/ comments?
489 2011-04-07 10:33:13 <sipa> i would remove the "With the current total CPU power on the network, most CPUs will usually take months between successfully generating 50 BTC."
490 2011-04-07 10:33:29 <sipa> or are you just talking about the design?
491 2011-04-07 10:33:49 <sipa> i like it
492 2011-04-07 10:33:58 <tcatm> only design. I copied the text for now.
493 2011-04-07 10:34:19 <jrabbit> I dont like the stuff on the right
494 2011-04-07 10:35:12 <sipa> it could use some box as well around it
495 2011-04-07 10:35:45 <nathan7> sipa: Look at the email addresses at the bottom
496 2011-04-07 10:36:08 <sipa> those images will be turned into white on black, i suppose
497 2011-04-07 10:36:10 <nathan7> Perhaps make those transparent-background?
498 2011-04-07 10:36:11 <tcatm> It's far from finished.
499 2011-04-07 10:36:26 <tcatm> Just a 15min mock-up.
500 2011-04-07 10:36:29 <nathan7> Mhm
501 2011-04-07 10:36:50 <tcatm> ideally I'd like to use mailto: links
502 2011-04-07 10:37:15 <jrabbit> http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html ahah
503 2011-04-07 10:37:20 <tcatm> I do that on bitcoincharts/watch and gmail is quite good at catching spam.
504 2011-04-07 10:38:05 <RPMiSO> Hi all
505 2011-04-07 10:39:14 <RPMiSO> Has there been any trouble regarding bitcoins and worms yet?
506 2011-04-07 10:39:23 <nathan7> Nope, are you about to create it?
507 2011-04-07 10:39:47 <RPMiSO> No.
508 2011-04-07 10:39:51 <RPMiSO> It's just an idea I had.
509 2011-04-07 10:40:15 <RPMiSO> If someone created a botnet of bitcoin miners.
510 2011-04-07 10:40:23 <RPMiSO> There's decent money to be made I suppose.
511 2011-04-07 10:40:35 <nathan7> Indeed.
512 2011-04-07 10:40:48 <nathan7> We call those 'botnets' 'pools'.
513 2011-04-07 10:41:07 <nathan7> It's just a matter of spreading the miners
514 2011-04-07 10:41:07 <RPMiSO> Well, I mean an involuntary pool.
515 2011-04-07 10:41:26 <nathan7> And leaving out the complexity of calculating rewards
516 2011-04-07 10:41:31 <sipa> RPMiSO: you see the peak around march 7th here: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png ?
517 2011-04-07 10:41:51 <RPMiSO> Yes.
518 2011-04-07 10:41:57 <sipa> we assume that was a botnet
519 2011-04-07 10:42:12 <RPMiSO> How much money do you think the person gained?
520 2011-04-07 10:42:16 <RPMiSO> At a guess?
521 2011-04-07 10:42:27 <sipa> since he sent it all to a single account, it's known :)
522 2011-04-07 10:42:37 <RPMiSO> Oh right.
523 2011-04-07 10:42:39 <RPMiSO> How much?
524 2011-04-07 10:43:37 <sipa> http://blockexplorer.com/address/1Ph9zCh3LcoYmEYj3z9MXkRiKuHcNEdY4J
525 2011-04-07 10:44:14 <RPMiSO> Fucking hell.
526 2011-04-07 10:44:20 <RPMiSO> That worked out profitable.
527 2011-04-07 10:44:36 <sipa> depends how much he paid for it
528 2011-04-07 10:45:21 <RPMiSO> What do you mean? I'm not well versed on how the whole system works. I just had an idea so I came here to enquire.
529 2011-04-07 10:45:48 <jav> I think what sipa means is, that the person might have rented the botnet
530 2011-04-07 10:46:35 <RPMiSO> Ahhh right.
531 2011-04-07 10:47:20 <RPMiSO> I wouldn't be suprised to see a bot with the capabilities built in the future.
532 2011-04-07 10:47:32 <RPMiSO> What effect will this have on the system?
533 2011-04-07 10:48:24 <jav> if it does normal mining, which I think is mostly likely, it strengthen the network :-) .. just sucks for other miners, because the botnet doesn't pay for electricity, so isn't competing on equal terms
534 2011-04-07 10:49:05 <topi`> it's like mining gold when done by individuals vs. when being done with slaves
535 2011-04-07 10:49:21 <topi`> i'm a white man and I command 1000 slaves that do the gold mining for me, but I collect all the results
536 2011-04-07 10:49:24 <topi`> it's comparable :)
537 2011-04-07 10:49:34 <jav> yeah, good analogy
538 2011-04-07 10:52:08 <RPMiSO> As far as I can tell quite risk free too.
539 2011-04-07 10:52:26 <RPMiSO> How many machines were involved in March spike? Any ideas?
540 2011-04-07 10:53:58 <jav> regarding risk free: I wonder if owners of affected machines would notice something is wrong more quickly.. because their machine is running unusually hot or something
541 2011-04-07 10:54:26 <topi`> their machines will run unusually hot even while playing flash games :D
542 2011-04-07 10:54:31 <ForceDestroyer> Isn't that the obvious reason it stopped?
543 2011-04-07 10:54:36 <topi`> or running some mindboggingly meaningless flash ads
544 2011-04-07 10:55:26 <RPMiSO> The owners of the affected machines aren't the sort of users to keep an eye of cpu/gpu temps.
545 2011-04-07 10:55:31 <sipa> RPMiSO: if those were CPU miners... a few hundred thousand
546 2011-04-07 10:55:34 <RPMiSO> They've managed to get a worm after all.
547 2011-04-07 10:55:45 <[Tycho]> Big botnet was shut down about that time by MS
548 2011-04-07 10:56:03 <RPMiSO> It's very impressive.
549 2011-04-07 10:56:07 <ForceDestroyer> I managed to get worms too *shrugs*... back when I thought something wasn't a worm if three scanners said it wasn't :P
550 2011-04-07 10:56:56 <ForceDestroyer> Well... I knew better the moment I saw it had been code obfuscated and the idiot who did it had his license for the obfuscator run out
551 2011-04-07 10:56:58 <RPMiSO> [Tycho], do you have a link for that?
552 2011-04-07 10:57:53 <ForceDestroyer> But, oh well, if people don't care what runs on their PCs, it might aswell be a BTC miner. (??????)
553 2011-04-07 10:58:31 <ForceDestroyer> I'm more afraid of what happens to BitCoin when the first large theft operations happen on botnets
554 2011-04-07 10:58:51 <[Tycho]> http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_on_the_issues/archive/2011/03/18/taking-down-botnets-microsoft-and-the-rustock-botnet.aspx
555 2011-04-07 11:09:30 <topi`> Rustock has been reported to be among the worlds largest spambots, at times capable of sending 30 billion spam e-mails per day. DCU researchers watched a single Rustock-infected computer send 7,500 spam emails in just 45 minutes
556 2011-04-07 11:09:48 <topi`> 30000 M spams... that's just a huge waste of good CPU time and network bandwidth :/
557 2011-04-07 11:10:23 <topi`> somebody questioned the "uselessness" of CPU cycles that go down to mine bitcoins, but I think there are *far* more useless ways to spend CPU cycles
558 2011-04-07 11:11:08 <Diablo-D3> dude
559 2011-04-07 11:11:11 <nathan7> indeed
560 2011-04-07 11:11:14 <Diablo-D3> are we curing cancer?
561 2011-04-07 11:11:15 <Diablo-D3> or aids?
562 2011-04-07 11:11:24 <Diablo-D3> or the Republican party?
563 2011-04-07 11:11:27 <Diablo-D3> the cycles are wasted.
564 2011-04-07 11:11:43 <sipa> printing dollar bills costs energy as well
565 2011-04-07 11:11:50 <topi`> well, the CPU cycles are the price that needs to be paid for an anonymous, distributed currency
566 2011-04-07 11:12:03 <topi`> sipa: energy *and* resources
567 2011-04-07 11:12:55 <sipa> furthermore, the amount of energy spent in bitcoin mining in an economically viable way, is limited by the price of bitcoins
568 2011-04-07 11:16:02 <topi`> there should be some statistics created from the kWh usage patterns of typical CPU and GPU hardware
569 2011-04-07 11:16:13 <nathan7> Hmm
570 2011-04-07 11:16:27 <topi`> I mean, to see what kind of differences there are between different hw options for the kWh/btc ratio
571 2011-04-07 11:16:35 <topi`> or rather, btc/kWh
572 2011-04-07 11:16:40 <nathan7> I once had 700 bitcoins, then I had US$47.37
573 2011-04-07 11:16:44 <nathan7> I should've saved them
574 2011-04-07 11:16:54 <BurtyB> topi` its listed in the wiki
575 2011-04-07 11:17:12 <topi`> nathan7: there's always plenty of wisdom in the aftersight ;)
576 2011-04-07 11:17:40 <nathan7> topi`: indeed, I got quite a bit of goodies out of them though
577 2011-04-07 11:17:41 <topi`> that's still plenty more bitcoins than I can *ever* mine, because you started early, and I just came in
578 2011-04-07 11:18:15 <topi`> and, my hardware is unsuitable for mining anyway (I live as a nomad, so no permanent residence, so no desktops)
579 2011-04-07 11:18:20 <nathan7> Mhm
580 2011-04-07 11:18:42 <topi`> but then again, Bitcoin as a system *can't* be totally fair to everyone.
581 2011-04-07 11:18:45 <topi`> no system is perfect
582 2011-04-07 11:19:23 <topi`> i'm not complaining, I'm still an early adopter ;) I expect there will be some "normal" ppl participating eventually, if we just know how to market the thing.
583 2011-04-07 11:21:53 <xelister> watching 'funny' YT clips may be more CPU wastefull
584 2011-04-07 11:22:01 <xelister> or heaving 10 flash ads in background
585 2011-04-07 11:22:22 <[Tycho]> ...or using Firefox :)
586 2011-04-07 11:23:42 <xelister> or being windowsnoob without adblock :P
587 2011-04-07 11:24:09 <xelister> well to be fair, firefox is not burning cpu.  It may be holding lots of ram (before version 4.0)
588 2011-04-07 11:24:42 <topi`> why is it that none of the NVIDIA gpu's seem to approach the performance of ATI 5 series gpu's in mining?
589 2011-04-07 11:25:04 <xelister> topi`: NVidia sucks in hardware design, Ati sucks in drivers design
590 2011-04-07 11:25:10 <topi`> lol
591 2011-04-07 11:25:14 <xelister> they should make Ati cards with nvidia drivers, that would rock
592 2011-04-07 11:25:35 <xelister> Ati Nvidion
593 2011-04-07 11:25:55 <xelister> Atia Nvidion 5970 GTX
594 2011-04-07 11:25:56 <topi`> even a cheapass 6850 gives almost 200 Mhash/sec
595 2011-04-07 11:26:17 <gribble> Error: For identification purposes, you must be identified via GPG to use the order book.
596 2011-04-07 11:26:17 <topi`> crazy
597 2011-04-07 11:26:17 <xelister> ;; sell 1 "Atia Nvidion 5970 GTX" 1000 btc
598 2011-04-07 11:26:30 <jrabbit> hahaha
599 2011-04-07 11:26:40 <xelister> =)
600 2011-04-07 11:27:56 <tcatm> some updates... http://bitcoincharts.com/~tcatm/bitcoin.org/
601 2011-04-07 11:28:19 <sipa> topi`: nvidia chips are better for doing many different things at once, ati is better for doing many times the same thing at once :)
602 2011-04-07 11:28:28 <sipa> and nvidia sucks for integer operations
603 2011-04-07 11:29:23 <grondilu> is barwench around sometimes ?
604 2011-04-07 11:29:51 <grondilu> oh forget it, it's a chan name, not a user name
605 2011-04-07 11:29:53 <topi`> sipa: so I should get an ati.
606 2011-04-07 11:29:57 <genjix> tcatm: i've been dropped from bitcoincharts
607 2011-04-07 11:30:01 <mahadri> topi`: On nVidia GPUs, rotates are assembled as 2 shifts and a logical or. ATI's GPUs have native rotate instructions. There are lots of rotations in SHA256.
608 2011-04-07 11:30:38 <topi`> mahadri: yeah :) In my active youth, I optimized some assembly code for powerpc for calculating RC5 ...
609 2011-04-07 11:30:52 <topi`> lots of rotates, but the powerpc is well equipped to handle those:)
610 2011-04-07 11:31:28 <Diablo-D3> well, if you're using altivec
611 2011-04-07 11:31:38 <Diablo-D3> your code is going to be almost identical to your sse2 code
612 2011-04-07 11:31:45 <topi`> Diablo-D3: also the native insn set was way better for that than any intel chips :)
613 2011-04-07 11:32:00 <topi`> I'm talking about times before altivec, before sse2
614 2011-04-07 11:32:06 <topi`> I think it was 1999 or 2000 :)
615 2011-04-07 11:32:14 <Diablo-D3> heh
616 2011-04-07 11:32:22 <Diablo-D3> but ppc is dead now :<
617 2011-04-07 11:32:29 <topi`> and I was young and still was able to concentrate on asm
618 2011-04-07 11:32:36 <topi`> nowadays I can do nothing, it seems
619 2011-04-07 11:32:57 <topi`> the ppc STILL lives on my iMac ;) a 2.1GHz G5
620 2011-04-07 11:33:17 <topi`> the computer is almost 6 years old but is very decent
621 2011-04-07 11:33:44 <Diablo-D3> I still have my powerbook
622 2011-04-07 11:34:00 <Diablo-D3> g4 1.25ghz
623 2011-04-07 11:36:58 <[Tycho]> I have some ppc too :) Up to 9600/300 :)
624 2011-04-07 11:37:25 <topi`> I should add some info to the miners table in bitcoin.it wiki
625 2011-04-07 11:37:31 <topi`> how do you get edit access there?
626 2011-04-07 11:37:44 <WakiMiko_> register an account
627 2011-04-07 11:37:54 <topi`> I just did
628 2011-04-07 11:37:59 <WakiMiko_> you need to confirm your email address
629 2011-04-07 11:38:02 <topi`> ah, it was for bitcoin-otc wiki
630 2011-04-07 11:38:08 <topi`> all these wikis drive me nuts!
631 2011-04-07 11:40:59 <tcatm> genjix: looks like your api is broken
632 2011-04-07 11:41:12 <topi`> I would contribute a lot more if anonymous wiki edits were possible :)
633 2011-04-07 11:41:26 <Diablo-D3> they shouldnt be possible due to spam
634 2011-04-07 11:41:49 <tcatm> genjix: getTrades.php doesn't return anything
635 2011-04-07 11:49:45 <topi`> Diablo-D3: funny how 6 years ago there was very little to none spam to wikis (I was regularly contributing to wikipedia at that time
636 2011-04-07 11:50:03 <Diablo-D3> yeah, and now wikipedia is a pile of shit
637 2011-04-07 11:51:01 <topi`> sad
638 2011-04-07 11:56:35 <tcatm> anyone heard of http://www.donsbulbs.com ? Looks like they accept Bitcoin
639 2011-04-07 11:59:55 <edcba> nice
640 2011-04-07 12:01:06 <topi`> I added some systems to the wiki [Mining hardware comparison] ... any guesses which CPUs have the best Mhash/watt ratio? :)
641 2011-04-07 12:01:42 <edcba> http://thecrittercasual.com/Info.html accept bitcoins too ?!
642 2011-04-07 12:01:49 <topi`> ...but still fall short of the Mhash/watt ratios of ATI 5xxx series and so on
643 2011-04-07 12:01:51 <UukGoblin> tcatm, with a 25% discount? :-O
644 2011-04-07 12:02:11 <UukGoblin> I actually do need a bulb
645 2011-04-07 12:02:21 <tcatm> well, try it ant let us know
646 2011-04-07 12:02:30 <edcba> http://www.codeshirts.com/
647 2011-04-07 12:03:57 <topi`> I think a nice way to promote Bitcoin would be to assemble a huge list of webshops that accept bitcoins. including bulbs and pet collars :)
648 2011-04-07 12:04:21 <edcba> http://bluecanarynightlight.com/order.php
649 2011-04-07 12:04:48 <edcba> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=%22bitcoin%22+site:com+shipping
650 2011-04-07 12:04:55 <edcba> that's how i found them
651 2011-04-07 12:06:47 <UukGoblin> tcatm, hrm, they all seem sold out
652 2011-04-07 12:09:49 <UukGoblin> ooh, the bitcoin faucet has run dry ;-]
653 2011-04-07 12:10:52 <topi`> poor faucet :(
654 2011-04-07 12:11:10 <topi`> I got my first 0.05 from there! thanks faucet
655 2011-04-07 12:22:42 <genjix> tcatm: no trades in the last 24 hours
656 2011-04-07 12:25:50 <tcatm> genjix: mhm could be a bug that causes bitcoincharts to delete all trades when there a no trades. can you switch to all trades and then back to 24h to check what it does?
657 2011-04-07 12:29:36 <genjix> tcatm: ok
658 2011-04-07 12:30:37 <genjix> tcatm: done
659 2011-04-07 12:30:42 <genjix> lets see what happens
660 2011-04-07 12:31:49 <tcatm> genjix: looks like it got the trades
661 2011-04-07 12:32:06 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
662 2011-04-07 12:32:07 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.7674,"low":0.6902,"vol":9673,"buy":0.7401,"sell":0.76,"last":0.76}}
663 2011-04-07 12:41:10 <UukGoblin> o/ my 5 BTC have arrived
664 2011-04-07 12:41:17 <UukGoblin> should last for another 100 newbies
665 2011-04-07 12:43:34 <mizerydearia> hmm, is this the direction of Bitcoin software?  --> with the Wallet protocol, GUIs will talk to Wallet over a socket"
666 2011-04-07 12:43:40 <mizerydearia> I haven't been paying attention
667 2011-04-07 12:44:50 <tcatm> mizerydearia: nope
668 2011-04-07 12:45:15 <xelister> ello ello
669 2011-04-07 12:45:19 <xelister> this is wallet speaking
670 2011-04-07 12:45:24 <xelister> come quick Robin, I'm being robbed
671 2011-04-07 12:45:42 <mizerydearia> tcatm, hmm, strange, because someone mentioned it in #bitcoin-gentoo for the gentoo ebuilds.
672 2011-04-07 12:45:44 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: yep
673 2011-04-07 12:47:15 <tcatm> mizerydearia: who?
674 2011-04-07 12:47:45 <oi> whois
675 2011-04-07 12:49:08 <mizerydearia> tcatm, http://pastebin.com/k731vkER
676 2011-04-07 12:50:15 <tcatm> ah, luke-jr :)
677 2011-04-07 12:50:50 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, what wallet protocol? ;-P
678 2011-04-07 12:50:57 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
679 2011-04-07 12:51:39 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: still drafting, so not usable yet
680 2011-04-07 12:51:52 <xelister> wtf wallet protocol
681 2011-04-07 12:52:02 <UukGoblin> interesting
682 2011-04-07 12:52:35 <mizerydearia> It appears the wallet protocol is established entirely by luke-jr.  Is this something to consider integrating into Bitcoin client?  I am concerned about it in that if it is not, then for it to be included only in the gentoo ebuild will then taint the gentoo ebuild.
683 2011-04-07 12:53:09 <UukGoblin> mizerydearia, "Everything beyond this point is strictly DRAFT, should NOT be implemented, and is subject to being completely rewritten or modified!"
684 2011-04-07 12:53:15 <mizerydearia> of course
685 2011-04-07 12:53:50 <tcatm> is there even code for it yet?
686 2011-04-07 12:53:57 <mizerydearia> I have no idea
687 2011-04-07 12:54:40 <UukGoblin> it'd require a big-ish change to bitcoind I guess
688 2011-04-07 12:54:50 <UukGoblin> if not a re0-write
689 2011-04-07 12:54:58 <UukGoblin> s/0//
690 2011-04-07 12:55:49 <jed> events over HTTP?
691 2011-04-07 12:58:07 <jed> I know I'm not well-known in this community, but egads, HTTP sucks for general RPC. just look at the necessity for long-polling
692 2011-04-07 13:03:16 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: nah, it would be able as complex as adding RPC was
693 2011-04-07 13:03:36 <luke-jr> jed: read the protocol, it doesn't require long-polling
694 2011-04-07 13:03:43 <luke-jr> jed: that's one of the goals
695 2011-04-07 13:04:44 <jed> right, but you're yielding events
696 2011-04-07 13:07:13 <jed> two-way street of communication makes me hesitant to outright agree with the choice of HTTP. that said, not my project, just struck me as interesting, since hickson's draft probably isn't going to go anywhere either
697 2011-04-07 13:08:10 <luke-jr> hickson's draft?
698 2011-04-07 13:08:23 <luke-jr> jed: you are familiar with SSE and SPDY?
699 2011-04-07 13:08:57 <luke-jr> jed: another goal, is to be simple for simple things (like a PHP script that just wants the current balance)
700 2011-04-07 13:09:04 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, care to expand the acronyms plz?
701 2011-04-07 13:09:08 <luke-jr> which is merely GET /balance
702 2011-04-07 13:09:17 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: SSE = HTTP Server-Side Events
703 2011-04-07 13:09:32 <jed> I'm familiar with SSE, yes, and needing them in a project negates HTTP, in my mind
704 2011-04-07 13:09:35 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: SPDY = Google's HTTP multiplexing protocol with support for Server Hints
705 2011-04-07 13:10:00 <jed> a big red flag is that you're building a specification on top of three (more?) liquid specifications
706 2011-04-07 13:10:14 <jed> websockets are probably never going to be completed, because of inherent security flaws
707 2011-04-07 13:10:42 <jed> ian got pushback on SSE, because there are better ways to accomplish the same thing
708 2011-04-07 13:10:45 <luke-jr> jed: Websockets are only used for optional tunnelling of p2p protocol
709 2011-04-07 13:10:49 <jed> yeah - avoid them
710 2011-04-07 13:11:02 <jed> mozilla turned them off, and it's unlikely they'll come back
711 2011-04-07 13:11:37 <UukGoblin> dbus! ;-P
712 2011-04-07 13:11:47 <luke-jr> afaik, the security concerns are strictly for webpages, not protocol-related
713 2011-04-07 13:12:05 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: dbus would work for GUIs, but not for webapps or non-*nix
714 2011-04-07 13:12:09 <jed> not true: the handshake is vulnerable to attacks
715 2011-04-07 13:12:19 <jed> very, in fact - http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg04744.html
716 2011-04-07 13:12:37 <luke-jr> jed: normal TCP connections don't even have a handshake
717 2011-04-07 13:12:51 <jed> ...the websocket handshake...
718 2011-04-07 13:12:59 <xelister> luke-jr: hmm
719 2011-04-07 13:13:02 <UukGoblin> hrm
720 2011-04-07 13:13:18 <UukGoblin> sounds like a need for an abstract protocol with multiple transport plugins...
721 2011-04-07 13:13:29 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: it is :P
722 2011-04-07 13:14:08 <UukGoblin> great :->
723 2011-04-07 13:14:09 <luke-jr> the Application Layer could be used over any similar Presentation/Session Layer
724 2011-04-07 13:14:30 <luke-jr> and this is why it's still a draft-- people can provide valuable input
725 2011-04-07 13:14:45 <jed> what's wrong with the current JSON-RPC?
726 2011-04-07 13:14:47 <tcatm> some changes: http://bitcoincharts.com/~tcatm/bitcoin.org/
727 2011-04-07 13:15:02 <luke-jr> jed: besides being completely unusable for GUIs?
728 2011-04-07 13:15:10 <jed> how so?
729 2011-04-07 13:15:23 <luke-jr> jed: there are no events whatsoever, everything is polled
730 2011-04-07 13:15:34 <jed> right, inherent to its design around HTTP
731 2011-04-07 13:15:41 <UukGoblin> tcatm, cute
732 2011-04-07 13:15:45 <luke-jr> it also doesn't provide many necessary functionalities
733 2011-04-07 13:15:58 <jed> like new verbs?
734 2011-04-07 13:16:00 <luke-jr> and has been poorly designed from the start
735 2011-04-07 13:16:28 <luke-jr> jed: like controlling transaction fees, for instance
736 2011-04-07 13:16:36 <jed> okay, so you add a new verb
737 2011-04-07 13:17:14 <jed> looks like a patch to do just that?: http://yyz.us/bitcoin/patch.bitcoin-settxfee
738 2011-04-07 13:17:47 <luke-jr> &
739 2011-04-07 13:17:54 <luke-jr> that doesn't control tx fees, it just adds them
740 2011-04-07 13:18:02 <jed> okay, so add a new verb that "controls"
741 2011-04-07 13:18:04 <luke-jr> and the inherent design flaws are still annoying
742 2011-04-07 13:18:26 <luke-jr> and polling is still a major problem
743 2011-04-07 13:18:31 <jed> which isn't fixed by your spec!
744 2011-04-07 13:18:38 <luke-jr> sure it is?
745 2011-04-07 13:18:52 <jed> how?
746 2011-04-07 13:18:52 <mizerydearia> I agree.  tcatm's design for bitconi.org is MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH better than what exists now.
747 2011-04-07 13:19:17 <luke-jr> jed: how isn't it? the draft 0 has events, and doesn't try to use BTC as internal values
748 2011-04-07 13:19:20 <mizerydearia> bitconiisland.org?
749 2011-04-07 13:19:28 <sirius-m> I think the black is too dark
750 2011-04-07 13:19:41 <jed> draft 0 has an empty events section, and mentions two liquid specifications as a means to accomplish them
751 2011-04-07 13:19:54 <mizerydearia> sirius-m, Well, tweak the colors a bit, otherwise the layout is amazing
752 2011-04-07 13:19:56 <jed> (which no libraries at all support, by the way, so to use them you're going to have to reinvent HTTP in the programming language you're using against this spec)
753 2011-04-07 13:20:21 <mizerydearia> It is very easy to understand and see everything important without scrolling, the most important thing
754 2011-04-07 13:20:36 <tcatm> sirius-m: the footer?
755 2011-04-07 13:20:44 <luke-jr> jed: alternatives?
756 2011-04-07 13:20:45 <mizerydearia> of course, dependent on your resolution/window size
757 2011-04-07 13:20:51 <jed> luke-jr: not building it upon HTTP?
758 2011-04-07 13:21:08 <luke-jr> jed: then what?
759 2011-04-07 13:21:29 <sirius-m> tcatm: yes
760 2011-04-07 13:21:38 <jed> protobufs sound like a start
761 2011-04-07 13:22:11 <jed> the big issue you have is message chopping, which protobufs gets you -- they can be parsed from a stream efficiently -- and that's the only benefit HTTP gives you in this scenario
762 2011-04-07 13:22:17 <tcatm> sirius-m: almost expected that problem as I didn't design on my color proof screen :)
763 2011-04-07 13:22:45 <mizerydearia> tcatm, Maybe change it to #333333 (which is exactly the same color used on current home page)
764 2011-04-07 13:23:01 <luke-jr> jed: protobufs don't get you message chopping, last I heard
765 2011-04-07 13:23:21 <jed> k, then zeromq carrying protobufs
766 2011-04-07 13:23:45 <jed> building on top of 0mq is a huge win, because you get alternative communication strategies, too
767 2011-04-07 13:23:49 <jed> scaling to pubsub is cake
768 2011-04-07 13:23:57 <mizerydearia> tcatm, instead of a 20x100 px black colored image
769 2011-04-07 13:24:41 <jed> zeromq abstracts away "find the end of the message", and only yields full messages to you
770 2011-04-07 13:25:02 <jed> which could be a protobuf for wire-size efficiency, or JSON, or whatever
771 2011-04-07 13:25:07 <luke-jr> jed: i don't see a protocol specification
772 2011-04-07 13:25:21 <jed> it's binary on the wire, why do you care?
773 2011-04-07 13:26:01 <jed> oh, you're one of those guys
774 2011-04-07 13:26:04 <jed> in which case, here ya go: http://rfc.zeromq.org/
775 2011-04-07 13:26:04 <mizerydearia> Well...
776 2011-04-07 13:26:15 <luke-jr> not to mention, LGPL is probably not an ideal license for a library everyone needs to use
777 2011-04-07 13:26:31 <mizerydearia> luke-jr, Perhaps gentoo ebuild can be the first to establish experimenting with the wallet protocol and if it catches on, awesome ^_^
778 2011-04-07 13:26:34 <jed> "a library"?
779 2011-04-07 13:26:41 <jed> there is no "a library"
780 2011-04-07 13:26:48 <luke-jr> the 0MQ lib
781 2011-04-07 13:26:54 <jed> there's reference C and bindings to a whole bunch of languages
782 2011-04-07 13:27:04 <UukGoblin> oh, one cool thing would be to integrate with gnucash
783 2011-04-07 13:27:15 <mizerydearia> I have included unofficial (at the time) patches in bitcoin-git-9999 previously
784 2011-04-07 13:27:22 <UukGoblin> an automatic bitcoin 'listtransactions' thingy to gnucash
785 2011-04-07 13:27:25 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: ew :p
786 2011-04-07 13:27:32 <mizerydearia> ew?
787 2011-04-07 13:27:59 <mizerydearia> listransactions was a very necessary feature for web apps that wasn't in official release for many months
788 2011-04-07 13:28:09 <mizerydearia> listtransactions*
789 2011-04-07 13:28:16 <tcatm> sirius-m, mizerydearia: color changed to #222
790 2011-04-07 13:29:34 <mizerydearia> tcatm, Ah, I see, the image has a bit of transparency.
791 2011-04-07 13:29:37 <luke-jr> jed: 0MQ *specifications* are GPLv3 :/
792 2011-04-07 13:29:54 <mizerydearia> It wasn't noticeable before
793 2011-04-07 13:30:20 <jed> I hate GPL too, but reinventing the wheel instead of using a purpose-built solution is just as stupid, imnsho
794 2011-04-07 13:30:40 <jed> yet another HTTP based protocol that has its own take on what RESTful means
795 2011-04-07 13:30:44 <jed> = sigh
796 2011-04-07 13:30:48 <mizerydearia> or, the image was changed too ^_^
797 2011-04-07 13:31:19 <jed> I'll put it to you straight: JSON-RPC, has, in my experience, been fine to develop against and I've enjoyed the code that I've written
798 2011-04-07 13:31:27 <jed> your spec would scare me away from coding for bitcoin if it became the official
799 2011-04-07 13:32:23 <tcatm> mizerydearia: it was a little too dark and looked black on some screens
800 2011-04-07 13:32:41 <jed> the direction is just ... scary. it's like an opportunity to use every liquid, experimental spec you can find. dismissing zeromq outright because of its licensing (for an open-source project to use, mind!) and lack of a formal spec for a black-box wire protocol is worrying in itself
801 2011-04-07 13:32:52 <tcatm> it's really hard to get web colors right. I have three good monitors here and all display it slightly different
802 2011-04-07 13:32:55 <jed> my unsolicited five cents, anyway
803 2011-04-07 13:32:58 <luke-jr> jed: How would 0MQ+protobuf replace this: file_get_contents('http://localhost:8335/balance')
804 2011-04-07 13:33:12 <UukGoblin> what's the problem with specs being GPLed?
805 2011-04-07 13:33:15 <jed> well, first, URLs being enabled in file_get_contents is a security hole
806 2011-04-07 13:33:43 <mizerydearia> jed, I think we should consider reinventing the wheel: http://is.gd/gHW2da
807 2011-04-07 13:33:53 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: that means any software implementing it has to also be GPL
808 2011-04-07 13:33:59 <jed> luke-jr: hahah, no it doesn't.
809 2011-04-07 13:34:25 <UukGoblin> not at all
810 2011-04-07 13:34:29 <UukGoblin> the library is LGPL
811 2011-04-07 13:34:35 <luke-jr> well, GPL doesn't make sense with regard to non-software, so it's open to legal grey areas all over
812 2011-04-07 13:34:42 <luke-jr> but that would be the obvious conclusion
813 2011-04-07 13:35:12 <jed> why does the written specification of the black-box wire protocol, written ex post facto from the actual implementation and only used for framing messages, important to you?
814 2011-04-07 13:35:23 <jed> seriously, the only thing that protocol does is frame
815 2011-04-07 13:35:50 <jed> it's like writing a specification about pascal strings
816 2011-04-07 13:35:52 <luke-jr> jed: why are standards important?
817 2011-04-07 13:36:12 <mizerydearia> e.g. Microsoft vs Standards-compliant browsers
818 2011-04-07 13:36:23 <mizerydearia> I think that is reputable source as to why standards are important
819 2011-04-07 13:36:30 <mizerydearia> Microsoft IE
820 2011-04-07 13:36:46 <jed> which is amusing, because neither IE nor mainstream browsers implement standards to the T
821 2011-04-07 13:37:15 <mizerydearia> But it helps to establsih direction
822 2011-04-07 13:37:17 <jed> there was just the way IE did things, and the way alternative browsers did things, and the alternative way happened to be closer (but by no means exact) to the spec
823 2011-04-07 13:37:19 <mizerydearia> and organization
824 2011-04-07 13:37:34 <jed> sure, but they aren't always required
825 2011-04-07 13:37:40 <mizerydearia> of course
826 2011-04-07 13:37:51 <jed> what we're debating here is roughly the equivalent of writing a specification about null-padded strings
827 2011-04-07 13:37:57 <jed> char *foo = "bar";
828 2011-04-07 13:38:10 <jed> do I need a spec in hand to know that's going in memory as  B A R \0 ?
829 2011-04-07 13:38:21 <luke-jr> jed: is there a reason 0MQ+protobuf wouldn't just fit right in as Session+Presentation layers in DRAFT 0?
830 2011-04-07 13:38:33 <jed> the OSI model doesn't really apply to API specifications
831 2011-04-07 13:38:37 <jed> I'm not sure why you're using it
832 2011-04-07 13:40:35 <luke-jr> jed: the OSI model is designed precisely for protocol stacks, which is exactly what we're talking about&
833 2011-04-07 13:40:55 <jed> yeah, except HTTP is at layer 7
834 2011-04-07 13:41:04 <jed> so...reinventing TCP sessions for layer 5?
835 2011-04-07 13:41:18 <phantomcircuit> jed, websockets?
836 2011-04-07 13:41:22 <phantomcircuit> jed, lol
837 2011-04-07 13:42:25 <jed> I'd avoid implementing against websockets unless the final spec dosn't require the UPGRADE mechanism
838 2011-04-07 13:42:40 <phantomcircuit> jed, UPGRADE?
839 2011-04-07 13:43:28 <jed> it's how websockets are handshaken.  client GET /foo blah,  server 101 WebSocket Handshake Upgrade: WebSocket Connection: Upgrade
840 2011-04-07 13:43:43 <jed> I've written an entire app on top of websockets, and once mozilla turned them off in 4, it's now useless
841 2011-04-07 13:44:25 <jed> which is roughly the same scenario this wiki draft would be swimming toward, writing a new spec built upon liquid specs...
842 2011-04-07 13:44:48 <phantomcircuit> jed, ah
843 2011-04-07 13:48:25 <UukGoblin> this 0mq looks cool
844 2011-04-07 13:48:39 <jed> luke-jr: to answer your earlier question about simple applications, there's nothing stopping you from offering two endpoints - a stateless HTTP one (here's the cool part: built on top of the 0mq backend), and the 0mq one for clients that need write ability and event push
845 2011-04-07 13:48:53 <jed> in fact, you could reimplement JSON-RPC on top of the 0mq backend and nothing breaks
846 2011-04-07 13:49:09 <jed> that's a big, giant, crucial, boldface awesomeness layer: nothing breaks
847 2011-04-07 13:49:37 <jed> for clients that need extra stuff and push events? badabing, you now expose the backend as a separate endpoint
848 2011-04-07 13:55:02 <Speeder> I just saw bitcoinJ it creates or store a local wallet too?
849 2011-04-07 13:59:24 <Kiba> jed = mtgox?
850 2011-04-07 13:59:50 <BlueMatt> MagicalTux == mtgox
851 2011-04-07 13:59:51 <jed> why do people keep asking me that?
852 2011-04-07 14:02:18 <Kiba> an earthquake hit Japan
853 2011-04-07 14:02:22 <gasteve> 0mq does indeed look cool
854 2011-04-07 14:02:23 <Kiba> let hope MagicalTux is alright
855 2011-04-07 14:02:29 <jgarzik> jed: mtgox's creator is a Jed
856 2011-04-07 14:02:33 <jed> ah
857 2011-04-07 14:02:40 <jed> we rule, anyway
858 2011-04-07 14:02:51 <BlueMatt> Kiba: last I heard he is fine
859 2011-04-07 14:02:54 <BlueMatt> old news
860 2011-04-07 14:03:05 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: new 7.1 quake
861 2011-04-07 14:03:20 <BlueMatt> wait...god damn not reading my news for 10 hours
862 2011-04-07 14:03:45 <jed> near the same area of the last one, too
863 2011-04-07 14:03:50 <BlueMatt> thats what happens when google reader gets behind by a day
864 2011-04-07 14:04:15 <Kiba> The Japanese are having a bad year
865 2011-04-07 14:04:24 <BlueMatt> the world kinda is
866 2011-04-07 14:04:39 <BlueMatt> middle east + japan + new Zealand
867 2011-04-07 14:04:49 <Kiba> middle east is more positive
868 2011-04-07 14:04:54 <Kiba> Japan kinda bad