1 2011-04-12 00:01:01 <hozer> okay, so I think what I need is to check how long the GUI (X) has been idle, and if it's more than say 10 seconds, have pocblm crank the frames down to say 1
  2 2011-04-12 00:03:52 <gjs278> hozer I tried that
  3 2011-04-12 00:03:58 <gjs278> I could not get it to adjust frames on the fly
  4 2011-04-12 00:04:27 <gjs278> like once the frames are set and it starts, I cant get it to adjust
  5 2011-04-12 00:19:43 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Ehud Ben-Reuven * r1dcc04..886abf iOSApp/ (26 files in 3 dirs): (14 commits) http://tinyurl.com/3mbwnhm
  6 2011-04-12 00:24:25 <luke-jr> :o
  7 2011-04-12 00:24:44 <luke-jr> who is that anyhow
  8 2011-04-12 00:25:45 <joepie91> slightly offtopic but potentially relevant: http://anonnews.org/?p=press&a=item&i=809
  9 2011-04-12 00:27:55 <forrestv> oh, int(s.encode('hex'), 16) works
 10 2011-04-12 00:28:13 <forrestv> and ('%x' % i).decode('hex')
 11 2011-04-12 00:28:38 <luke-jr> lol
 12 2011-04-12 00:34:04 <sss> agreed
 13 2011-04-12 00:35:03 <sss> besides #bitcoin-dev what are other populated channels
 14 2011-04-12 00:35:21 <robblesz> bitcoin-otc, bitcoin-discussion, bitcoin-mining
 15 2011-04-12 00:35:56 <sss> ok awesome
 16 2011-04-12 00:37:17 <Blitzboom> https://forum.flattr.net/showthread.php?tid=550&pid=4370#pid4370
 17 2011-04-12 00:37:46 <Blitzboom> if we can offer flattr a euro-BTC exchanger, they will probably add it as funding option
 18 2011-04-12 00:37:51 <gribble> Bitcoin channel topics | #bitcoin-dev - development | #bitcoin-discussion - general bitcoin-related | #bitcoin-mining - mining | #bitcoin-market - streaming market quotes | #bitcoin-otc - trading marketplace | #bitcoin-offtopic - offtopic
 19 2011-04-12 00:37:51 <nanotube> ;;bc,channels
 20 2011-04-12 00:37:53 <nanotube> sss: ^
 21 2011-04-12 00:37:57 <Blitzboom> err, other way. bitcoin to euro
 22 2011-04-12 00:38:10 <sss> thanks
 23 2011-04-12 00:38:26 <Blitzboom> i just researched, linus olsson is one of the founders
 24 2011-04-12 00:39:19 <sss> who is linus olsson
 25 2011-04-12 00:39:34 <Blitzboom> flattr founder
 26 2011-04-12 00:39:50 <sss> makes sense
 27 2011-04-12 00:40:12 <sss> :)
 28 2011-04-12 00:42:19 <sss> since im bored
 29 2011-04-12 00:42:26 <sss> lets have a rousing bitcoin discussion
 30 2011-04-12 01:41:39 <phantomcircuit_> WASSSUPPPPPPP
 31 2011-04-12 01:43:54 <Mixxit> undefined reference to `vtable for boost::detail::thread_data_base'
 32 2011-04-12 01:44:02 <Mixxit> anyone got a sample makefile?
 33 2011-04-12 01:47:36 <luke-jr> Mixxit: makefile.unix?
 34 2011-04-12 01:47:45 <Mixxit> yeah that's what im using
 35 2011-04-12 01:48:39 <luke-jr> change 'static' to 'dynamic' in it
 36 2011-04-12 01:54:56 <EPiSKiNG> I'm using two 5970s and for some reason, GPU4 wont overclock when using CCC or Afterburner
 37 2011-04-12 01:55:00 <Mixxit> Assembler messages:
 38 2011-04-12 01:55:04 <EPiSKiNG> anyone experienced the same issues?
 39 2011-04-12 01:55:34 <EPiSKiNG> clock and mem wont change when I change settings on only that one gpu
 40 2011-04-12 01:55:39 <EPiSKiNG> the other 3 work just fine
 41 2011-04-12 02:00:58 <phantomcircuit_> Mixxit, make bitcoind
 42 2011-04-12 02:01:02 <Mixxit> thts what im mkaing
 43 2011-04-12 02:02:06 <Mixxit> http://pastebin.com/2q4BBNCZ
 44 2011-04-12 02:04:11 <Mixxit> Fatal error: can't create obj/nogui/util.o: No such file or directory
 45 2011-04-12 02:04:17 <Mixxit> isnt that supposed to make that
 46 2011-04-12 02:04:26 <Mixxit> so its expected not to find it?
 47 2011-04-12 02:06:59 <Mixxit> ah, i see it doesnt make obj/nogui
 48 2011-04-12 02:07:19 <Mixxit> not very informative error (- no such file or directory - but we're not saying which one! )
 49 2011-04-12 02:47:25 <Mixxit> http://pastebin.com/vKVRw1kj
 50 2011-04-12 02:47:28 <Mixxit> my output and my config
 51 2011-04-12 02:47:42 <Mixxit> http://pastebin.com/Nc2atUcN
 52 2011-04-12 02:47:45 <Mixxit> any ideas?
 53 2011-04-12 03:11:48 <phantomcircuit_> uh
 54 2011-04-12 03:12:05 <phantomcircuit_> so can someone explain the rationale behind the 4 sig types for checksig?
 55 2011-04-12 03:13:51 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit_: there's 4?
 56 2011-04-12 03:14:06 <luke-jr> I mean, kinda wish there were more& :P
 57 2011-04-12 04:58:13 <sacarlson> ok I found the hardcoded IRC address irc.lfnet.org in irc.cpp , just starting to get an idea how it works I see 3204 people or addresses in that #bitcoin room
 58 2011-04-12 04:59:47 <lfm> sacarlson: thats actually a pool of servers
 59 2011-04-12 05:00:15 <sacarlson> I guess when I run bitcoin I become a server?
 60 2011-04-12 05:00:26 <lfm> nope
 61 2011-04-12 05:00:35 <lfm> not an irc server
 62 2011-04-12 05:00:54 <sacarlson> no I mean I must become a bitcoin server when I'm running
 63 2011-04-12 05:01:26 <lfm> well more like just a node, it is distributed so its not really servers and clients
 64 2011-04-12 05:02:00 <sacarlson> ifm: isn't that what I become and I add to that list in that irc channel
 65 2011-04-12 05:02:59 <lfm> well you will start to receive connections but its not really a client server relationship. the nodes are all equivalent really
 66 2011-04-12 05:18:08 <sacarlson> ifm: but I become a node do I not when I run my bitcoin or bitcoind correct?
 67 2011-04-12 05:27:10 <sacarlson> so what sequence is the chain of nodes updated with a transaction?  is that random?
 68 2011-04-12 05:31:53 <lfm> sacarlson: no set sequence, it is a network. each node is connected to 8 or more other nodes, ya sorta random flood mode
 69 2011-04-12 06:14:02 <topi`> in the same vein, even the internet requires routing logic, because most internet routers are connected to 8 or more other internet routers.
 70 2011-04-12 06:23:54 <lfm> um, you sure about that/
 71 2011-04-12 06:24:00 <lfm> ?
 72 2011-04-12 06:26:00 <Diablo-D3> topi` fails at the internet.
 73 2011-04-12 06:26:07 <Diablo-D3> someone needs to learn about BGP.
 74 2011-04-12 06:28:05 <lfm> elcome to BGP
 75 2011-04-12 06:28:07 <lfm> www.bgp.com.cn/
 76 2011-04-12 06:30:17 <lfm> Borders Group, Inc.: NYSE:BGP quotes & news - Google Finance
 77 2011-04-12 06:30:18 <lfm> Get detailed financial information on Borders Group, Inc. (NYSE:BGP) including real-time stock quotes, historical charts & financial news, all for free!
 78 2011-04-12 06:31:04 <Diablo-D3> =|
 79 2011-04-12 06:31:17 <Diablo-D3> border gateway protocol
 80 2011-04-12 06:31:31 <lfm> I wonder how many other wrong results google can find :-)
 81 2011-04-12 06:58:29 <topi`> Diablo-D3: there used to be these router daemons when I studied the internet
 82 2011-04-12 06:58:34 <topi`> was 20 years ago
 83 2011-04-12 06:59:01 <Diablo-D3> =|
 84 2011-04-12 07:08:29 <lfm> a name so good he named it 3 times
 85 2011-04-12 07:10:50 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 5500 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.5, is 6 minutes and 30 seconds
 86 2011-04-12 07:10:50 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 5500 0.5
 87 2011-04-12 07:31:14 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 90000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.5, is 23 seconds
 88 2011-04-12 07:31:14 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 90000 0.5
 89 2011-04-12 07:36:19 <slush> DoomDumas: here?
 90 2011-04-12 08:39:46 <eps2> ;bc,stats
 91 2011-04-12 08:39:49 <eps2> ;;bc,stats
 92 2011-04-12 08:39:51 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117967 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 976 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 2 hours, 56 minutes, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 90098.42371352
 93 2011-04-12 08:40:14 <eps2> oh so the difficulty is expected to go up again :(
 94 2011-04-12 08:40:28 <lfm> record highs
 95 2011-04-12 08:40:28 <mtrlt> of course :)
 96 2011-04-12 08:40:34 <eps2> i suppose technically that is good for bitcoin
 97 2011-04-12 08:41:00 <lfm> it would seem to mean there are more miners than ever
 98 2011-04-12 08:41:42 <sacarlson> I'm getting this error in compile of bitcoind in ubuntu 10.04 headers.h:43:20: error: db_cxx.h: No such file or directory
 99 2011-04-12 08:42:06 <eps2> oh and the value has gone up to
100 2011-04-12 08:42:12 <eps2> back to dollar parity
101 2011-04-12 08:42:21 <mtrlt> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-small-lin-10k.png well if you look at this, there was more Ghash/sec during the spike in march
102 2011-04-12 08:42:31 <sacarlson> lfm: ok will do
103 2011-04-12 08:43:15 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
104 2011-04-12 08:43:16 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.8926,"low":0.7504,"vol":36776,"buy":0.8261,"sell":0.8499,"last":0.84}}
105 2011-04-12 08:43:26 <lfm> still just 84 cents
106 2011-04-12 08:43:28 <sipa> that spike is assumed to have been caused by one single person
107 2011-04-12 08:43:32 <eps2> oh sorry my ticker was wrong
108 2011-04-12 08:44:00 <eps2> just waiting for bitcoin to hit $10 per btc
109 2011-04-12 08:44:04 <eps2> then i am cashing out :)
110 2011-04-12 08:44:13 <lfm> eps2: dont hold your breath
111 2011-04-12 08:44:26 <mtrlt> yeah, it's unhealthy
112 2011-04-12 08:44:46 <eps2> i'll hold my cock instead
113 2011-04-12 08:44:55 <eps2> thats healthy right?
114 2011-04-12 08:44:55 <lfm> unless you're underwater, then it is a good idea
115 2011-04-12 08:45:10 <sacarlson> I just read the on that says I need to add ../dist/configure --enable-cxx  to Berkeley DB 4.7 compile, I used the sudo apt-get install libdb4.7++-dev package install that I guess doesn't work
116 2011-04-12 08:45:52 <lfm> sacarlson: huh?
117 2011-04-12 08:46:10 <sacarlson> I'm building the git version
118 2011-04-12 08:46:35 <lfm> what didnt work?
119 2011-04-12 08:46:52 <joepie91> mmmm
120 2011-04-12 08:46:52 <sacarlson> lfm: the compile fails
121 2011-04-12 08:46:54 <joepie91> guise
122 2011-04-12 08:46:55 <joepie91> http://www.andlabs.org/tools/ravan/ravan.html
123 2011-04-12 08:47:00 <joepie91> also does sha256
124 2011-04-12 08:47:04 <lfm> the install was ok tho?
125 2011-04-12 08:47:29 <sacarlson> lfm: oh yes the sudo installs all worked
126 2011-04-12 08:47:36 <joepie91> webworker-based browser cracking of sha256 + high traffic site + bitcoin pool = instant revenue
127 2011-04-12 08:47:42 <lfm> ok then rerun the configure
128 2011-04-12 08:47:58 <sipa> joepie91: any idea how many sha256 hashes a browser can do?
129 2011-04-12 08:48:02 <Spenvo> guys, anybody care to comment on the front of hacker news?
130 2011-04-12 08:48:14 <joepie91> idk
131 2011-04-12 08:48:14 <lfm> no
132 2011-04-12 08:48:17 <joepie91> might be worth to run a test
133 2011-04-12 08:48:20 <sacarlson> lfm: the configure on bitcoind ?  I didn't see any instructions to run that
134 2011-04-12 08:48:32 <joepie91> if you have a really high traffic site I think there's a good possibility to earn some free bitcoin power with this
135 2011-04-12 08:48:36 <lfm> oh ya make bitcoind
136 2011-04-12 08:48:45 <joepie91> even if only a part of your visitors uses something that supports webworkers
137 2011-04-12 08:48:48 <sacarlson> I compiled with the line make -f makefile.unix bitcoind
138 2011-04-12 08:49:00 <sipa> joepie91: i don't expect more than 100k/s :)
139 2011-04-12 08:49:09 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 100
140 2011-04-12 08:49:10 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 100 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 112 years, 7 weeks, 6 days, 0 hours, 38 minutes, and 14 seconds
141 2011-04-12 08:49:16 <lfm> and it still didnt work? try the release version 0.3.20.2
142 2011-04-12 08:49:21 <joepie91> yes, but say you combine a ton of visitors
143 2011-04-12 08:49:23 <joepie91> every day
144 2011-04-12 08:49:33 <joepie91> then that might get very interesting :)
145 2011-04-12 08:49:33 <sipa> ok, let's say 100000 people
146 2011-04-12 08:49:40 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 10000000
147 2011-04-12 08:49:41 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 10000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 9 hours, 49 minutes, and 27 seconds
148 2011-04-12 08:49:51 <joepie91> err
149 2011-04-12 08:49:54 <lfm> joepie91: it would still be basiclly cpu mining and cpus suck for bitcoin
150 2011-04-12 08:50:06 <joepie91> lfm: yes, but that does not mean they don't mine.
151 2011-04-12 08:50:10 <joepie91> and if your cpu power is free
152 2011-04-12 08:50:13 <sipa> joepie91: that's still only a few dedicated boxes with a few 5970's in them
153 2011-04-12 08:50:16 <joepie91> then there isn't really anything to lose
154 2011-04-12 08:50:31 <joepie91> it could be pretty much a plug and play solution for websites
155 2011-04-12 08:50:35 <joepie91> insert a bit of javascript code
156 2011-04-12 08:50:42 <joepie91> use some simple backend to communicate with a bitcoind
157 2011-04-12 08:51:05 <lfm> joepie91: and your server is free too?
158 2011-04-12 08:51:08 <joepie91> and every visitor that uses chrome etc will contribute a bit to your mining
159 2011-04-12 08:51:14 <joepie91> no, but if you already run a website
160 2011-04-12 08:51:17 <joepie91> those costs are there anyway
161 2011-04-12 08:51:28 <joepie91> it could however help to *cover* the costs
162 2011-04-12 08:51:38 <joepie91> without advertisements
163 2011-04-12 08:51:44 <lfm> or just add to your server costs
164 2011-04-12 08:51:50 <joepie91> how?
165 2011-04-12 08:51:57 <lfm> development time
166 2011-04-12 08:51:57 <sacarlson> opps I just checked and seems the libdb4.7++-dev package didn't install and is now installing so my mistake sorry
167 2011-04-12 08:52:06 <joepie91> development would be easy
168 2011-04-12 08:52:13 <joepie91> and my development time is technically free
169 2011-04-12 08:52:16 <lfm> sacarlson: ah! ok good luck
170 2011-04-12 08:52:34 <lfm> joepie91: ok then go for it
171 2011-04-12 08:52:38 <BurtyB> website visitors won't be very happy if they go to a site and find their computer crawls
172 2011-04-12 08:52:56 <joepie91> BurtyB: afaik a webworker can't max out your CPU
173 2011-04-12 08:53:04 <joepie91> not sure though
174 2011-04-12 08:53:11 <lfm> sure it couild
175 2011-04-12 08:53:12 <joepie91> but it would make sense if they couldnt
176 2011-04-12 08:53:33 <lfm> might not be able to max out a dual core
177 2011-04-12 08:53:39 <sipa> it can, but it's terribly inefficient for that kind of calculation
178 2011-04-12 08:53:59 <sipa> so, even if it runs at 100% cpu usage, it will only do a fraction of what a native miner on the same cpu would do
179 2011-04-12 08:54:11 <BurtyB> joepie91 maxing out on javascript will most likely cripple the browser from doing anything else
180 2011-04-12 08:54:20 <lfm> and a cpu is a fraction of what a gpu does
181 2011-04-12 08:54:31 <joepie91> when I look at ravan it doesn't max out the CPU
182 2011-04-12 08:54:46 <joepie91> uses 1 core here I guess, hits 25% (windows box)
183 2011-04-12 08:54:48 <Spenvo> guys, gavin andresen's interview is n0 8 on hacker news:  http://www.bitcoinbulletin.com/2011/04/09/bowling-for-bitcoins-meet-the-trader-05/
184 2011-04-12 08:54:49 <lfm> joepie91: raven?
185 2011-04-12 08:54:58 <joepie91> example cracker: http://www.andlabs.org/tools/ravan/worker.php?hash_id=1422
186 2011-04-12 08:55:06 <joepie91> explanation: http://www.andlabs.org/tools/ravan/ravan.html
187 2011-04-12 08:55:44 <sipa> joepie91: and how many hashes does it do?
188 2011-04-12 08:55:53 <joepie91> it doesn't give a count of that sadly
189 2011-04-12 08:55:57 <joepie91> that's what I've been looking for
190 2011-04-12 08:56:22 <lfm> ya looks like a bitcoin miner would be easy based on raven
191 2011-04-12 08:56:26 <joepie91> wait
192 2011-04-12 08:56:32 <joepie91> now it does
193 2011-04-12 08:56:33 <joepie91> >.<
194 2011-04-12 08:56:41 <joepie91> but idk the algo
195 2011-04-12 08:56:51 <joepie91> 122204 hashes/second
196 2011-04-12 08:57:13 <lfm> ya thats maybe P2 speed
197 2011-04-12 08:57:24 <topi`> ok, even my 500mhz ARM core is faster ;)
198 2011-04-12 08:57:36 <sipa> tahat corresponds to 65175 bitcoin hashes/s
199 2011-04-12 08:57:43 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 65 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 0.00079394109963 BTC per day and 3.30808791512e-05 BTC per hour.
200 2011-04-12 08:57:43 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 65
201 2011-04-12 08:58:24 <lfm> ya so 100 days of cpu time will get you 7 cents
202 2011-04-12 08:58:36 <lfm> or 8 cents maybe
203 2011-04-12 08:58:40 <BurtyB> heh aka worthless
204 2011-04-12 08:59:19 <sipa> it's 1/10000 of a good gpu
205 2011-04-12 08:59:25 <lfm> well if you trick 1000 users into running it for 1 day each you could get 70 cents
206 2011-04-12 08:59:44 <krytzz> use activex instead lol
207 2011-04-12 08:59:55 <krytzz> and have native performance on windows
208 2011-04-12 09:00:08 <sipa> does that even exist still?
209 2011-04-12 09:00:11 <joepie91> > implying activex runs in anything other than IE
210 2011-04-12 09:00:21 <lfm> doesnt exist for me, I run linux
211 2011-04-12 09:01:57 <topi`> I have the slowest nvidia in the universe which runs OpenCL and I get 2100 khash/sec :)
212 2011-04-12 09:02:11 <mtrlt> even my CPU gets more ;-)
213 2011-04-12 09:02:14 <topi`> this is with 16 cores
214 2011-04-12 09:02:22 <BurtyB> heh :)
215 2011-04-12 09:02:37 <lfm> topi`: I have an nvidia that only does 1500 khash??s
216 2011-04-12 09:02:44 <topi`> well, the nvidia chip consumes 6 watts of power, so it's pretty efficient
217 2011-04-12 09:02:57 <krytzz> i cant wait for opencl support in open source radeon
218 2011-04-12 09:03:01 <lfm> ya no fan saves you another 5 watts
219 2011-04-12 09:03:06 <topi`> also north bridge and ram controller integrated into that chip
220 2011-04-12 09:03:23 <lfm> mine is on a pcie card
221 2011-04-12 09:03:47 <topi`> krytzz: ever since AMD went out to buy ATI and they at least have had a policy to disclose everything for open source use, I've been waiting for PROPER open source ati drivers
222 2011-04-12 09:04:11 <lfm> dont hold your breath
223 2011-04-12 09:04:30 <krytzz> topi`: that too, but especially opencl for mining hehe
224 2011-04-12 09:04:49 <lfm> they still keep stuff secret for competitavte reasons
225 2011-04-12 09:05:18 <krytzz> yeah
226 2011-04-12 09:06:00 <lfm> like they promise they will release everything SOMEDAY, but by then it will be 4 generations old
227 2011-04-12 09:06:34 <krytzz> yes it made some progress still
228 2011-04-12 09:06:53 <krytzz> and mesa is pretty active, i follow git
229 2011-04-12 09:11:01 <joepie91> cleverbot vs. omegle: http://pastebin.com/m5VSniXP (I know it's a bit offtopic, but just too funny :3)
230 2011-04-12 09:36:02 <thermal> are the transaction confirmations throttled by IP address or the nature of and processing time required to mathematically confirm one?
231 2011-04-12 09:36:40 <sipa> a confirmation is simply a block after it in the chain
232 2011-04-12 09:36:53 <sipa> each block in the chain implicitly acknowledges all transactions before it
233 2011-04-12 09:37:04 <sipa> and blocks are created approximately at a rate of 1 per 10 minutes
234 2011-04-12 09:37:18 <lfm> thermal: there is a complex priority calculations
235 2011-04-12 09:38:24 <lfm> thermal: ip addresses are not available to the calculation tho. ip addresses are not propogated on bitcoin transactions
236 2011-04-12 09:39:36 <thermal> what prevents someone from 'locking in' a transaction by creating many subsequent transactions themselves?
237 2011-04-12 09:39:38 <topi`> thermal: a new block has to be created in order to confirm a transaction.
238 2011-04-12 09:40:23 <krytzz> what do you mean with locking in
239 2011-04-12 09:40:34 <sipa> i don't see how many subsequent transactions would affect a given transaction
240 2011-04-12 09:40:56 <sipa> transactions are created by users of the system, blocks by miners
241 2011-04-12 09:41:56 <lfm> makeing lots of subsequent txn would not "lock in" anything, it would just be another txn
242 2011-04-12 09:42:37 <lfm> if the first one is bad, then all the dependant txn would be bad too and would not go thru
243 2011-04-12 09:43:02 <lfm> thats just normal txn processing
244 2011-04-12 09:44:28 <thermal> what i'm trying to get at is what is stopping someone from competing with a duplicate transaction chain using their own nodes
245 2011-04-12 09:45:19 <sipa> there is no transaction chain, only a block chain
246 2011-04-12 09:45:22 <lfm> thermal well if they have more than 50 percent of the mining power then they could do that
247 2011-04-12 09:45:46 <lfm> if they are smaller then the rest of the net will ignore them
248 2011-04-12 09:45:48 <sipa> transactions are independent pieces of information, they get their meaning by being placed in a block by a miner
249 2011-04-12 09:46:02 <sipa> and creating a block is a lot of work
250 2011-04-12 09:46:24 <thermal> ok i see, so the mathematical computation is the limiting factor
251 2011-04-12 09:46:29 <sipa> exactly
252 2011-04-12 09:46:29 <thermal> the throttle
253 2011-04-12 09:46:36 <sipa> it's not a throttle
254 2011-04-12 09:46:43 <lfm> the sha256 algorithm ya
255 2011-04-12 09:46:48 <sipa> one block can contain many transactions
256 2011-04-12 09:47:13 <sipa> but to create a "fake" block chain, you need to (re)do at least as much work as was put in the real chain
257 2011-04-12 09:47:13 <thermal> and timestamps are used with a margin of error window to verify each new block?
258 2011-04-12 09:47:36 <sipa> there are some limits on the timestamps of blocks, yes
259 2011-04-12 09:48:13 <lfm> thermal: the timestamps are only used for calculating new difficulty setting every 2 weeks really
260 2011-04-12 09:48:24 <thermal> what i'm working up to is this: is it possible to precompute a large number of new blocks to support a bad transaction you intend to make
261 2011-04-12 09:48:40 <sipa> no
262 2011-04-12 09:48:54 <lfm> thermal: if you can do it faster then the rest of the net combined, then ya
263 2011-04-12 09:48:54 <thermal> why not?
264 2011-04-12 09:48:56 <sipa> since the blocks will depend on the hash of that transaction
265 2011-04-12 09:49:04 <sipa> so you need to know the transaction first
266 2011-04-12 09:49:29 <thermal> since you're the one creating the transaction, wouldn't you know it before hand?
267 2011-04-12 09:49:43 <lfm> thermal: they have to be sequential tho, each block contains the hash of the previous block
268 2011-04-12 09:50:23 <lfm> you cant start calculating a new block till you have the previous one
269 2011-04-12 09:52:06 <thermal> so then you create 100 blocks sequentially of random transaction amounts using nodes that you control with predetermined future timestamps and then release them in a coordinated fashion
270 2011-04-12 09:52:28 <sipa> that's possible
271 2011-04-12 09:52:41 <sipa> *if* you have more than 50% of the mining power of the network
272 2011-04-12 09:52:45 <lfm> thermal: but if your slower than the rest of the net combined they will have more blocks in the main chain than you could create
273 2011-04-12 09:52:54 <sipa> otherwise, the rest will already have more blocks than you, and ignore yours
274 2011-04-12 09:53:04 <thermal> i don't understand why you keep mentioning the slower part
275 2011-04-12 09:53:13 <thermal> these are precalculated
276 2011-04-12 09:53:19 <thermal> so there is no processing required
277 2011-04-12 09:53:30 <thermal> they are ready to go
278 2011-04-12 09:53:43 <mtrlt> every block depends on the previous block
279 2011-04-12 09:53:48 <lfm> thermal ya but you cant start block 100 till you have 99, you have to start at a common point with the main net
280 2011-04-12 09:53:57 <eps2> you would need to caulculate them really quickly
281 2011-04-12 09:54:20 <thermal> ah so the recipient has input during a transaction?
282 2011-04-12 09:54:31 <sipa> transactions are NOT blocks
283 2011-04-12 09:54:34 <lfm> while you are calculating your blocks the main net is not standing still
284 2011-04-12 09:54:42 <sipa> transactions are placed into blocks
285 2011-04-12 09:54:55 <sipa> and each block refer to the previous block
286 2011-04-12 09:55:10 <sipa> thermal: ok we're now at block 10000, and you start precalculating your blocks, numbered 10001-10010 let's say
287 2011-04-12 09:55:21 <sipa> your number 10001 depends on the "real" block 10000
288 2011-04-12 09:55:26 <sipa> and 10002 on your 10001
289 2011-04-12 09:55:28 <thermal> ok, when a transaction occurs, what block chain is used to place the block into?
290 2011-04-12 09:55:33 <sipa> none
291 2011-04-12 09:55:48 <lfm> thermal: generally a txn will go into the "current" block
292 2011-04-12 09:55:48 <sipa> a transaction is simply broadcast on the network
293 2011-04-12 09:55:48 <thermal> i just feel foolish now, i'll read the rest of the spec
294 2011-04-12 09:55:56 <sipa> until a miner picks it up to place it in a block
295 2011-04-12 09:56:25 <sipa> meanwhile, the real network also continues mining, and creates also blocks 10001, 10002, ...
296 2011-04-12 09:56:39 <lfm> thermal:  it takes a while to get comfortable thinking about it all
297 2011-04-12 09:56:43 <sipa> if you have less than 50% of the mining power
298 2011-04-12 09:56:48 <sipa> they will have more blocks than you
299 2011-04-12 09:56:51 <sipa> and simply ignore yours
300 2011-04-12 09:58:08 <thermal> when a miner places it into their blockchain (is that right?) they then notify other miners of the new addition?
301 2011-04-12 09:58:37 <lfm> thermal: a txn could be in both branches of block chains
302 2011-04-12 09:59:29 <thermal> i'll get to the crux: since bandwidth is needed by team A (let's say they represent 50%) to compete with team B as well as processing power
303 2011-04-12 09:59:49 <thermal> to make others aware of the work they've done
304 2011-04-12 10:00:02 <lfm> naw bandwidth is not the limiting factor, processing power is
305 2011-04-12 10:00:24 <thermal> but surely they need to contact others for it to be taken into consideration?
306 2011-04-12 10:00:26 <lfm> you could probably run bitcoin on a 56kbaud modem
307 2011-04-12 10:00:58 <thermal> is it possible to know which IP addresses are competing against you and coordinate a denial of service attack against them?
308 2011-04-12 10:01:17 <lfm> thermal: maybe, maybe not
309 2011-04-12 10:01:22 <thermal> btw i really want bitcoin to succeed, just also wanting it to be water tight ;)
310 2011-04-12 10:01:48 <lfm> bitcoin is not foolproof, fools are too smart
311 2011-04-12 10:02:11 <thermal> it needs to be foolproof if it's going to work
312 2011-04-12 10:02:46 <lfm> naw, just has to be flexible and recat well to whatever happens. theres lots of people ready to react
313 2011-04-12 10:03:09 <lfm> recat -> react
314 2011-04-12 10:03:18 <thermal> ok well that's reassuring :)
315 2011-04-12 10:03:59 <eps2> i'm rectting right now
316 2011-04-12 10:04:11 <lfm> wtg
317 2011-04-12 10:04:13 <thermal> and lastly (for now :D) what happens when BTCs are permanently lost?
318 2011-04-12 10:04:28 <lfm> then they're lost
319 2011-04-12 10:04:37 <mtrlt> nothing happens
320 2011-04-12 10:04:45 <lfm> just don't do that
321 2011-04-12 10:05:04 <thermal> i suppose there will be enough available units for it to never be an issue
322 2011-04-12 10:05:18 <gribble> 117977
323 2011-04-12 10:05:18 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
324 2011-04-12 10:05:37 <thermal> so that's how many active block chains exist?
325 2011-04-12 10:05:52 <lfm> 117977 "units" already to start with and they can be split up lots of ways
326 2011-04-12 10:05:53 <mtrlt> no, that's how many block there are in the chain
327 2011-04-12 10:06:00 <mtrlt> blocks
328 2011-04-12 10:06:58 <thermal> an idea i had to speed up the adoption (may or may not work)
329 2011-04-12 10:07:21 <thermal> is to create a non-profit NGO to handle the distribution of the currency
330 2011-04-12 10:08:00 <thermal> exchanging traditional currency with BTCs
331 2011-04-12 10:08:07 <lfm> thermal: bitcoin is better than that it has NO central authority for distributing the initial currency
332 2011-04-12 10:08:20 <thermal> this would only be temporary, a bootstrap if you will
333 2011-04-12 10:08:35 <thermal> using a limited pool of precalculated BTCs
334 2011-04-12 10:08:43 <lfm> thermal: nope, it is permenantly imbedded in the design
335 2011-04-12 10:09:05 <thermal> my idea would be temporary i mean
336 2011-04-12 10:09:07 <lfm> every 10 minutes the net issues another 50 btc
337 2011-04-12 10:09:38 <mtrlt> the idea of bitcoin is that there is no centralized entity that distributes anything
338 2011-04-12 10:09:50 <krytzz> isnt possible but you sure can setup a NGO and people can donate btc if the NGO is trustworthy
339 2011-04-12 10:09:50 <thermal> i suppose the reason for my idea was so that there was a reliable and safe way to exchange BTCs into traditional currency and vice-versa
340 2011-04-12 10:10:15 <lfm> thermal: you mean like the btc faucet?
341 2011-04-12 10:10:15 <thermal> i suppose that's one way
342 2011-04-12 10:10:20 <thermal> yes
343 2011-04-12 10:10:31 <thermal> but also in reverse
344 2011-04-12 10:11:03 <krytzz> in reverse?
345 2011-04-12 10:11:20 <thermal> BTCs to tradtional currency and traditional currency to BTCs
346 2011-04-12 10:11:45 <lfm> well ya, itd be just like any charity then, it would only have as much as people give it
347 2011-04-12 10:11:52 <thermal> imo that is the most limiting factor for adoption
348 2011-04-12 10:13:06 <thermal> it's probably better to take it slowly though
349 2011-04-12 10:13:27 <lfm> like the eff has a bitcoin donate button
350 2011-04-12 10:13:43 <topi`> I think the biggest factor limiting adoption amongst the "normal" folks is when they realize that there are teenagers running their GPUs 24/7 to generate more coins, i.e. get money for nothing ;)
351 2011-04-12 10:14:04 <thermal> haha :)
352 2011-04-12 10:14:12 <lfm> topi`: well thats good if you want to sell stuff to teenagers
353 2011-04-12 10:14:21 <topi`> well, I tried to explain bitcoin to suits.
354 2011-04-12 10:14:37 <thermal> sounds like someone should start up a business that makes BPUs
355 2011-04-12 10:14:42 <topi`> the really confusing part is how money gets created
356 2011-04-12 10:14:46 <sipa> topi`: that is NOT the purpose of bitcoin
357 2011-04-12 10:14:49 <thermal> (Bitcoin processing units)
358 2011-04-12 10:14:50 <krytzz> no, biggest factor for ordinary people is that you have nothing in your hand and fully rely on computers
359 2011-04-12 10:14:50 <lfm> BPUs?
360 2011-04-12 10:14:55 <lfm> oh
361 2011-04-12 10:15:00 <thermal> hehe :)
362 2011-04-12 10:15:17 <krytzz> many even cant use online banking
363 2011-04-12 10:15:41 <Kiba> nothing?
364 2011-04-12 10:15:45 <lfm> krytzz: people have been doing electronic banking and credit cards and even cheques for ages without anything "concrete" in their hands
365 2011-04-12 10:16:11 <thermal> agreed, i don't think that will be an issue krytzz
366 2011-04-12 10:16:22 <thermal> i was thinking about starting bitcoin's first bank
367 2011-04-12 10:16:29 <krytzz> lfm: ok, maybe you live in the usa, in germany here many old people are afraid of computers
368 2011-04-12 10:16:39 <lfm> krytzz: ya well if they cant figure out regular electronic banking then theyd be hopless for bitcoin
369 2011-04-12 10:17:01 <thermal> a bitcoin debit card sure would be great
370 2011-04-12 10:17:45 <thermal> krytzz: being old they won't be around that much longer anyway :D
371 2011-04-12 10:17:47 <lfm> thermal: if you can run a browser on your phone you can use bitcoins thru services such as mybitcoin.com and mtgox.com
372 2011-04-12 10:18:23 <thermal> i placed an order with mtgox a couple of days ago
373 2011-04-12 10:18:24 <lfm> thermal: ya, we can look forward to that eh?
374 2011-04-12 10:18:41 <thermal> still haven't received the BTCs. it should be almost instant
375 2011-04-12 10:18:53 <thermal> it's a possibility
376 2011-04-12 10:18:59 <lfm> thermal: well kinda depends what price you asked for
377 2011-04-12 10:19:07 <krytzz> thermal: if you dont have all blocks yet it takes some time to bootstrap
378 2011-04-12 10:19:21 <thermal> ah ok perhaps that's why
379 2011-04-12 10:19:30 <lfm> krytzz: doesnt take any time hardly to start using mybitcoin.com
380 2011-04-12 10:19:59 <krytzz> lfm: no i mean if he uses the client and doesnt have the 118000 blocks yet he wont see the TX
381 2011-04-12 10:20:13 <thermal> suggestion: installer downloads via HTTP a recent (to the hour) tar.gzip of all blocks
382 2011-04-12 10:20:38 <lfm> thermal: I expect he didnt offer enuf to get a contract
383 2011-04-12 10:20:45 <thermal> only $5 USD
384 2011-04-12 10:21:16 <thermal> that's not the point though, the amount shouldn't matter
385 2011-04-12 10:21:59 <lfm> thermal: no he made a bid on mtgox, the price he offers does make a difference if he will get any btc or not
386 2011-04-12 10:22:36 <thermal> i see
387 2011-04-12 10:23:26 <lfm> thermal: its a market, you have to see what the prices are and offer enuf that someone will sell to you
388 2011-04-12 10:23:58 <thermal> then perhaps i could link the bank up to it
389 2011-04-12 10:24:03 <thermal> with a reserve of BTCs
390 2011-04-12 10:24:14 <lfm> huh?
391 2011-04-12 10:24:59 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.8926,"low":0.7514,"vol":36859,"buy":0.8263,"sell":0.85,"last":0.8483}}
392 2011-04-12 10:24:59 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
393 2011-04-12 10:25:17 <lfm> do you understand those numbers?
394 2011-04-12 10:25:18 <thermal> using the API i could link up to mtgox and using an automated system constantly offer BTCs for sale
395 2011-04-12 10:25:27 <thermal> yes
396 2011-04-12 10:25:52 <lfm> thermal if you have some btc then you can offer to sell them, yes
397 2011-04-12 10:26:38 <thermal> the point i'm trying to make is that there needs to be atleast 1 buyer and selling to allow instant conversion between BTCs and existing currency
398 2011-04-12 10:27:02 <thermal> regardless of the amount
399 2011-04-12 10:27:05 <lfm> mtgox IS the automated system that will keep track of whatever offers you want to put up
400 2011-04-12 10:27:30 <lfm> and make exchanges for matches
401 2011-04-12 10:28:10 <thermal> i see mtgox as the medium/middle man/aggregator
402 2011-04-12 10:28:20 <lfm> ya that too
403 2011-04-12 10:28:23 <OlaRune> vad fan heter de d??r som f??ster vevstakarna runt axeln?
404 2011-04-12 10:28:24 <Kiba> I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of traders on mtgox are bots
405 2011-04-12 10:28:26 <thermal> there needs to be a reasonably sized reserve
406 2011-04-12 10:28:37 <OlaRune> sorry, wrong channel
407 2011-04-12 10:28:44 <lfm> np
408 2011-04-12 10:28:44 <thermal> i'll put through another buy request
409 2011-04-12 10:28:55 <thermal> Kiba: that's a good thing
410 2011-04-12 10:28:58 <hozer> thermal: get coding.. there's at least one exchange that's open-source (britcoin?)
411 2011-04-12 10:29:33 <thermal> i think i might, it's definitely got my interest
412 2011-04-12 10:29:36 <lfm> mtgox has a documented api for programmed trading
413 2011-04-12 10:30:30 <hozer> Kiba: are you so sure? It could just be a bunch of people who got 10BTC
414 2011-04-12 10:30:37 <Kiba> thermal: not saying that it's a bad thing
415 2011-04-12 10:30:51 <Kiba> hozer: coinpal still count as a trading bot in my opinion
416 2011-04-12 10:31:12 <hozer> ah, right. yes, it definitely looks like that is going on
417 2011-04-12 10:31:14 <Kiba> hmm..I got 26.25% of bitcoin raised
418 2011-04-12 10:31:25 <lfm> hozer the dayly volumes some days are such that I think there must be some big players
419 2011-04-12 10:31:52 <krytzz> Kiba: you got 2 million?
420 2011-04-12 10:31:54 <thermal> a 'bitpal' (paypal-like) service would be great too
421 2011-04-12 10:32:23 <hozer> thermal: yes, it would.. you got a business plan for such a thing, and a management team? ;)
422 2011-04-12 10:32:44 <thermal> i've got myself which on some days is the equivilent :p
423 2011-04-12 10:33:00 <thermal> no that just sounds arrogant
424 2011-04-12 10:33:03 <hozer> HAH, well get going
425 2011-04-12 10:33:09 <lfm> thermal: the hardest part is managing the risks of fraud and pullbacks and such
426 2011-04-12 10:33:16 <thermal> i could definitely get something like that done though
427 2011-04-12 10:33:23 <thermal> i agree lfm
428 2011-04-12 10:33:27 <hozer> what jurisdiction
429 2011-04-12 10:33:33 <thermal> i'm in australia
430 2011-04-12 10:33:41 <krytzz> cayman islands :)
431 2011-04-12 10:33:47 <thermal> hehe :)
432 2011-04-12 10:33:51 <hozer> is there a .au exchange yet?
433 2011-04-12 10:34:12 <thermal> are we talking about domains?
434 2011-04-12 10:34:15 <lfm> krytzz: you work in a bank then? you know something about that already then
435 2011-04-12 10:34:37 <hozer> I'm talking about an austrialian dollar denominated exchange physically hosted in australia
436 2011-04-12 10:34:38 <thermal> ireland is another option, they have a very low corporate tax
437 2011-04-12 10:35:03 <thermal> does australia have a stock exchange? yes
438 2011-04-12 10:35:06 <lfm> Havnt heard of anyone doing .au yet, you could be first
439 2011-04-12 10:35:13 <thermal> oh
440 2011-04-12 10:35:14 <hozer> from what I can tell Mtgox is in chicago, btcex is in Germany.. I need an exchange in australia I can co-locate a server next to
441 2011-04-12 10:35:18 <krytzz> lfm: was just joking
442 2011-04-12 10:35:35 <lfm> krytzz: oh too bad
443 2011-04-12 10:35:58 <lfm> krytzz: it would be nice to have an ecgange there
444 2011-04-12 10:36:00 <thermal> well there's a demand i could fill then
445 2011-04-12 10:36:28 <thermal> i wonder how long it takes until paypal start waving their arms about
446 2011-04-12 10:36:31 <thermal> and causing problems
447 2011-04-12 10:36:34 <krytzz> hozer: btcex is germany? where did you get that from?
448 2011-04-12 10:36:38 <hozer> traceroute
449 2011-04-12 10:36:56 <lfm> oh there servers could be anywhere
450 2011-04-12 10:37:07 <hozer> logically/legally btcex is in Russia
451 2011-04-12 10:37:11 <krytzz> is probably different in every countrys law
452 2011-04-12 10:37:13 <thermal> in fact, the longer this stays under the mainstream radar the better
453 2011-04-12 10:37:58 <hozer> I'd argue the sooner BTC gets some 'mainstream' business transactions the better
454 2011-04-12 10:38:06 <lfm> thermal: well stuff like the second life currency are much bigger and they are still going
455 2011-04-12 10:38:23 <topi`> how do you guys back up your wallet? I just run rsync -r Library/Application Support/Bitcoin to another host.
456 2011-04-12 10:38:24 <Kiba> hozer: MtGox is owned by a French dude in Japan
457 2011-04-12 10:38:26 <thermal> good points
458 2011-04-12 10:38:46 <lfm> topi`: you should probably stop bitcoin to do a backup
459 2011-04-12 10:38:52 <krytzz> topi`: better use rsnapshot to have an older version in case you messed something up and sync a broken version
460 2011-04-12 10:39:12 <topi`> lfm, why do you think so?
461 2011-04-12 10:39:14 <hozer> I'm amused by all the levels of indirection that exist in current exchanges
462 2011-04-12 10:39:19 <thermal> there's another idea (thanks to topi`): a cloud-based secure BTC storage solution
463 2011-04-12 10:39:32 <eps2> like mybitcoin?
464 2011-04-12 10:39:36 <lfm> topi`: unless you use the bitcoind backupwallet command
465 2011-04-12 10:39:56 <topi`> hmm.
466 2011-04-12 10:40:00 <hozer> this is funny watching thermal throw out ideas and hear back what's already been implemented ;)
467 2011-04-12 10:40:01 <thermal> ah. suppose it's been done then :)
468 2011-04-12 10:40:06 <thermal> :P
469 2011-04-12 10:40:12 <lfm> thermal: ther was a guy offereing that! he was a fraudster tho
470 2011-04-12 10:40:21 <thermal> oh :(
471 2011-04-12 10:40:55 <lfm> much safer to do your own backups
472 2011-04-12 10:40:56 <thermal> how about a reputation extension to the protocol? (optional)
473 2011-04-12 10:41:02 <hozer> I think if you want to offer a cloud-secure BTC storage, you need to be very clear what your phyiscal location is, and what legal regime you operate under, and be transparent
474 2011-04-12 10:41:22 <thermal> agreed
475 2011-04-12 10:41:30 <krytzz> thermal: not easy probably, has tobe backed by crypto, otherwise its useless
476 2011-04-12 10:42:18 <lfm> and any service like that would have to be very trustworthy since it so easily could be fraudulent
477 2011-04-12 10:42:21 <thermal> there's a startup in san fran called SimpleBank
478 2011-04-12 10:42:24 <hozer> I think the reputation stuff is orthoganol to BTC... , or should be anyway
479 2011-04-12 10:42:31 <thermal> i think they'd be very interested in bitcoin
480 2011-04-12 10:42:48 <krytzz> as cloud service you could host encrypted wallets and the encryption happens client-side
481 2011-04-12 10:42:54 <krytzz> so fraud isnt possible
482 2011-04-12 10:43:01 <krytzz> like wua.la or something
483 2011-04-12 10:43:03 <thermal> they simply provide the interface between the customer and their bank (and provide a custom debit card)
484 2011-04-12 10:43:34 <thermal> agreed, a simple symmetric key would work
485 2011-04-12 10:43:41 <lfm> basiclly you should NOT trust your wallet to any "service" when its so simple to put a backup on a thumb drive and put the thumb drive in a safe
486 2011-04-12 10:44:02 <topi`> exactly
487 2011-04-12 10:44:11 <krytzz> right, or upload encrypted files on rapidshare and such
488 2011-04-12 10:44:12 <thermal> Google Chrome recently added that same functionality for the sync'd data
489 2011-04-12 10:44:33 <lfm> krytzz: ya to to gmail or some such
490 2011-04-12 10:44:36 <thermal> lfm: what is simple to us is not simple to the other 99%
491 2011-04-12 10:45:04 <topi`> lfm: I suggested such an addition (to back up to a Thumb drive) on the bitcoin forum but no response.
492 2011-04-12 10:45:15 <thermal> that's a good idea
493 2011-04-12 10:45:18 <topi`> I mean, the UI has to make it simple to do such backups
494 2011-04-12 10:45:23 <lfm> thermal: well I guess the other 99% are gonna have to learn, sort like they have to learn about viruses
495 2011-04-12 10:45:29 <topi`> or even, the UI would refuse to work when the Thumb drive is not attached.
496 2011-04-12 10:46:11 <topi`> the "normal" ppl find it much easier to grasp a concept when it has physical parts involved .. like a USB drive :)
497 2011-04-12 10:46:15 <lfm> topi`: it would be easy to have the wallet reside on a thumb drive ya
498 2011-04-12 10:46:40 <topi`> you just write "BITCOIN WALLET" in big, blocky letters on top of that USB thumb drive, and even the grandma can use it.
499 2011-04-12 10:46:42 <thermal> yeah the thumb drive idea is good
500 2011-04-12 10:46:46 <thermal> and the cloud idea
501 2011-04-12 10:47:00 <lfm> the cloud idea sucks I think
502 2011-04-12 10:47:14 <topi`> lfm: there could be a "first-use wizard" that would lead the user to create/format such a USB thumb drive.
503 2011-04-12 10:47:16 <Blitzboom> why not code it?
504 2011-04-12 10:47:20 <hozer> the cloud idea probably only works if you have a two-factor auth token
505 2011-04-12 10:47:24 <lfm> becuase there would be more fraudsters working it than legits
506 2011-04-12 10:47:26 <thermal> so long as you can trust the provider, i don't see an issue
507 2011-04-12 10:47:46 <topi`> a 1 GB thumb drive would be enough to contain all the block data and logs.
508 2011-04-12 10:47:53 <lfm> thermal: yes that is the issue and it is not a small issue
509 2011-04-12 10:48:20 <topi`> it is *Much* simpler to trust a Thumb drive that is in *your* pocket :)
510 2011-04-12 10:48:21 <lfm> topi`: ya you could put the whole configdir out there
511 2011-04-12 10:48:46 <hozer> topi: what about when the drive gets destroyed ;)
512 2011-04-12 10:48:46 <topi`> lfm: not in its entirety. I think there ought to be a configuration setting that says "wallet is in USB"
513 2011-04-12 10:49:02 <topi`> and the USB drive needs to have a special name so that Bitcoin client recognises it
514 2011-04-12 10:49:09 <lfm> topi you could put the exe files there too so it can run on most any computer you plug it into
515 2011-04-12 10:49:19 <topi`> hozer: what if your wallet drops out of your pocket? you lose it.
516 2011-04-12 10:49:21 <thermal> how about this approach: a combination of a symmetric key and two-factor auth
517 2011-04-12 10:49:29 <hozer> portableapps.com
518 2011-04-12 10:49:40 <topi`> lfm: well... *if* you trust that computer ;)
519 2011-04-12 10:49:46 <lfm> ya
520 2011-04-12 10:49:48 <thermal> with iOS/Android app for the two-factor auth
521 2011-04-12 10:49:48 <topi`> lfm: I would opt for a full-blown linux install on the USB :)
522 2011-04-12 10:50:03 <lfm> android sucks for bitcoin
523 2011-04-12 10:50:15 <topi`> what makes android bad for bitcoin?
524 2011-04-12 10:50:16 <thermal> that way the cloud provider can't access the real data
525 2011-04-12 10:50:30 <lfm> iOS is worse than android
526 2011-04-12 10:50:55 <lfm> slow, limited, stroage and expensive bandwidth
527 2011-04-12 10:51:32 <thermal> i disagree but i really want to play sc2
528 2011-04-12 10:51:47 <lfm> sim city?
529 2011-04-12 10:51:53 <thermal> starcraft 2
530 2011-04-12 10:52:01 <lfm> oh, have fun
531 2011-04-12 10:52:06 <thermal> hehe thanks
532 2011-04-12 10:52:09 <thermal> ttyl :)
533 2011-04-12 10:52:16 <hozer> later
534 2011-04-12 10:54:41 <lfm> for many "phones" you need an extranal storage unit and my hit memory limits trying to run bitcoin
535 2011-04-12 10:55:22 <lfm> youd also wanna make sure you have an unlimited (not a psudo-unlimited) data plan
536 2011-04-12 10:56:16 <lfm> ie, real unlimited data plans are not available in Canada
537 2011-04-12 10:57:02 <sipa> what is pseudo-unlimited?
538 2011-04-12 10:57:22 <lfm> they have limits but the marketing trys to hide the fact
539 2011-04-12 10:57:36 <lfm> like 5gb/month
540 2011-04-12 10:57:53 <sipa> that should be more than enough for bitcoin, no?
541 2011-04-12 10:58:20 <lfm> bandwidth? not for me it wouldnt be
542 2011-04-12 10:59:02 <lfm> maybe if bitcoin was the only thing you were running
543 2011-04-12 10:59:22 <lfm> no browsing, no youtube, no netflix ...
544 2011-04-12 10:59:44 <sipa> i never used more than 300MiB in a month on my phone
545 2011-04-12 11:00:45 <lfm> note bitcoin works best if it is running 24/7 in the background (so iOS is out, it has no background)
546 2011-04-12 11:03:38 <lfm> sipa just starting up bitcoin needs to download the block chain (120Mb) then it really starts
547 2011-04-12 11:04:00 <sipa> it doesn't need to run in the background
548 2011-04-12 11:04:13 <sipa> it just needs to be fired up if there is relevant data to process
549 2011-04-12 11:04:46 <sipa> running 24/7 would kill the battery
550 2011-04-12 11:05:18 <lfm> sipa ya but if you fire it up after its been down a while it has to "catch up" to the current block anyway then which can take minutes that phone users are not patient with
551 2011-04-12 11:07:12 <lfm> all of which are not things your typical phone user wants to do
552 2011-04-12 11:09:01 <lfm> and thats why I try to convince people to just use mybitcoin.com, not an actual bitcoin node on the phone
553 2011-04-12 11:09:31 <sipa> i think phones will eventually carry and manage small wallets to do payments, but not run a node
554 2011-04-12 11:10:10 <lfm> sipa, yes, but it will work much more like mybitcoin.com then like bitcoin.exe
555 2011-04-12 11:10:25 <sipa> indeed
556 2011-04-12 11:11:37 <lfm> also if you loose your phone you loose the wallet on the phone but mybitcoin can be accessed from any phone or pc browser, you just need the user/password
557 2011-04-12 11:12:43 <krytzz> typical geek solution would be, wallet client on phone and node at home or on a dedicated server
558 2011-04-12 11:13:09 <lfm> naw, you want the wallet on the home node too
559 2011-04-12 11:13:21 <sipa> you'd have a full wallet at home
560 2011-04-12 11:13:30 <sipa> and a small wallet on the phone you sync with the one at home
561 2011-04-12 11:13:39 <sipa> with a limited amount of coins in it
562 2011-04-12 11:14:12 <krytzz> lfm: well you access the bitcoin daemon via api so you have your wallet everywhere
563 2011-04-12 11:14:48 <UukGoblin> jeez, 274 unconfirmed transactions
564 2011-04-12 11:14:52 <UukGoblin> what's wrong with them? ;-P
565 2011-04-12 11:15:21 <lfm> krytzz: ya if you want make a fancy gui front end on the phone so "power users" are confortable but the functionality needs to be remote
566 2011-04-12 11:15:47 <lfm> UukGoblin: spammers
567 2011-04-12 11:15:52 <krytzz> lfm: do you have an overview about the android clients? didnt look into it yet
568 2011-04-12 11:16:14 <lfm> krytzz: what android clients?
569 2011-04-12 11:16:39 <krytzz> lfm: bitcoin android cients, luke-jr had a list of repos, forgot the url currently
570 2011-04-12 11:17:04 <lfm> If you are asking me, i say USE THE BUILT IN BROWSER.
571 2011-04-12 11:17:29 <krytzz> no, i hate web apps mostly
572 2011-04-12 11:17:40 <lfm> sigh, then dont ask me
573 2011-04-12 11:17:45 <krytzz> k
574 2011-04-12 11:18:07 <krytzz> if a client that accesses the api isnt there i might make one or contribute
575 2011-04-12 11:19:53 <lfm> you could prolly even use mybitcoin.com and accessit via http with your own front end and no one would know any betetr
576 2011-04-12 11:21:01 <krytzz> yeah
577 2011-04-12 11:21:06 <krytzz> but i want to run my own node
578 2011-04-12 11:22:03 <topi`> I translated and published a translation of the english wikipedia bitcoin page in its entirety, who was it who gave 23 BTC donations for translations?
579 2011-04-12 11:22:04 <lfm> fine, if you dont trust mybitcoin.com you can run your own or use mtgox.com accounts or probably some otehrs out there
580 2011-04-12 11:22:49 <lfm> most nvidia are that way
581 2011-04-12 11:23:16 <topi`> :(
582 2011-04-12 11:24:02 <krytzz> eventually you have to earn money the "hard way" anyway :p
583 2011-04-12 11:24:19 <lfm> we just havn't convinced nvidia to optimize their hardware for us (bitcoin) yet. they keep catering to those darned gamers!
584 2011-04-12 11:26:21 <luke-jr> krytzz: http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w?o=age
585 2011-04-12 11:26:31 <krytzz> right
586 2011-04-12 11:26:41 <topi`> now that I have worked on the translation of the bitcoin wikipedia page, I think that page deserves a complete rewrite.
587 2011-04-12 11:26:53 <lfm> hehe
588 2011-04-12 11:26:54 <krytzz> luke-jr: whats up with the bot
589 2011-04-12 11:26:56 <topi`> it might answer the questions of the technically oriented people, but leaves "normal" ppl completely puzzled.
590 2011-04-12 11:27:28 <lfm> it is normal people's job to be puzzled at what nerds do
591 2011-04-12 11:28:04 <krytzz> i dont expect the majority of mankind to understand bitcoin
592 2011-04-12 11:28:13 <krytzz> they just have to trust it :p
593 2011-04-12 11:28:22 <Blitzboom> right
594 2011-04-12 11:28:27 <Blitzboom> they dont understand fiat money either
595 2011-04-12 11:28:28 <mtrlt> majority of people don't understand fiat money
596 2011-04-12 11:28:31 <mtrlt> yeah.
597 2011-04-12 11:28:48 <lfm> ya, no use translating bitcoin wiki for some dirt farmer in central africa who makes 120 bucks a year
598 2011-04-12 11:30:19 <luke-jr> krytzz: bitcoind died
599 2011-04-12 11:30:46 <lfm> mine didnt
600 2011-04-12 11:31:08 <eps2> thats it everybody, bitcoin is dead, everyone shut down your miners
601 2011-04-12 11:32:44 <lfm> eps2: oh shucks, thats terrible!
602 2011-04-12 11:34:18 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,estimate
603 2011-04-12 11:34:19 <gribble> 90140.02476546
604 2011-04-12 11:53:12 <luke-jr> <ljrbot> trade mtgox:          12.60   BTC @    0.86       USD
605 2011-04-12 11:53:13 <luke-jr> <ljrbot> trade bc:            100.00   BTC @    0.84444    LRUSD (pending since Apr12 09:01:49)
606 2011-04-12 11:54:22 <lfm> those are like pending bids or a log of txn?
607 2011-04-12 11:54:36 <luke-jr> lfm: confirmed trades
608 2011-04-12 11:54:55 <luke-jr> the "pending since&" is for ones that have a delay from agreement to confirmation
609 2011-04-12 11:56:21 <luke-jr> mtgox, btcex, britcoin confirm immediately ofc
610 2011-04-12 11:56:35 <lfm> ok i see
611 2011-04-12 11:56:53 <luke-jr> bc and bitmarket confirm after humans manually exchange
612 2011-04-12 12:04:51 <yebyen> woohoo, coinpal
613 2011-04-12 12:05:12 <yebyen> does anyone have a liberty reserve store can answer a few questions?
614 2011-04-12 12:05:52 <yebyen> i just want to know if i can use an LR account to set up a credit card acceptor
615 2011-04-12 12:06:36 <nanotube> yebyen: trust me, you don't want to trade LR for credit cards. LR is hard, cc is soft. you'll be fraudstered to oblivion.
616 2011-04-12 12:06:53 <nanotube> unless you go all coinpal like with low limits, and lots of fraud prevention effort
617 2011-04-12 12:06:54 <ersi> topi`: What language did you translate the wikipage to?
618 2011-04-12 12:08:07 <yebyen> nanotube: not really what i mean, i want to accept credit cards as payment, and i'll be putting my LR balances towards mtgox account to try and reach 800
619 2011-04-12 12:08:20 <yebyen> for services, not for hard fiat
620 2011-04-12 12:08:37 <nanotube> then how do you convert cc payments into LR ?
621 2011-04-12 12:08:53 <nanotube> guess i don't really understand what you plan to do. :)
622 2011-04-12 12:09:05 <yebyen> i though LR was a full merchant service like mtgox
623 2011-04-12 12:09:40 <Diablo-D3> I HAVE A WONDERFUL NEW IDEA
624 2011-04-12 12:09:49 <Diablo-D3> I AM GOING TO START A CULT THAT ACCEPTS BITCOINS
625 2011-04-12 12:10:04 <krytzz> hah
626 2011-04-12 12:10:06 <krytzz> BITOLOGY
627 2011-04-12 12:10:11 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: too late. the idea of bitcoin as a religion has already been suggested (by me, on -otc, some days ago)
628 2011-04-12 12:10:21 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: actually I had this idea 9 months ago
629 2011-04-12 12:10:27 <yebyen> although mtgox doesn't accept cc
630 2011-04-12 12:10:30 <Diablo-D3> but no one was around to hear it :<
631 2011-04-12 12:10:31 <krytzz> nanotube: not too late, nobody implemented it yet :)
632 2011-04-12 12:10:40 <Diablo-D3> Im still wondering when the fuck bitcoin became popular
633 2011-04-12 12:10:40 <yebyen> so i guess i'm not understanding
634 2011-04-12 12:10:55 <sipa> "Your donation to The Lord's bitcoin address was confirmed. Your sins are absolved."
635 2011-04-12 12:11:24 <krytzz> sipa: no, you have to pay amount x to get to level y and be a good person
636 2011-04-12 12:11:25 <Diablo-D3> sipa: ....
637 2011-04-12 12:11:25 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: haha
638 2011-04-12 12:11:29 <nanotube> krytzz: well yes...
639 2011-04-12 12:11:32 <Diablo-D3> ....
640 2011-04-12 12:11:40 <Diablo-D3> I should actually do that :<
641 2011-04-12 12:11:50 <Diablo-D3> and donate large amounts of that to help struggling nations
642 2011-04-12 12:12:37 <topi`> ersi: I translated it to Finnish, the native language of Tux ;)
643 2011-04-12 12:12:54 <topi`> (well, actually swedish, if we talk about Linus Torvalds, but well :)
644 2011-04-12 12:12:55 <MagicalTux> to tell you the truth I'm surprised by the amount of people using the automated SEPA system I wrote
645 2011-04-12 12:13:04 <yebyen> nanotube: so, you can get an LR debit card, but you can't use an LR account to accept card payments? ^_^
646 2011-04-12 12:13:42 <nanotube> yebyen: no, you can't get LR via accepting someone's credit card. LR is like a separate currency, you have to use an exchanger to go between 'regular usd' and 'lrusd'
647 2011-04-12 12:13:42 <topi`> ersi: it's just a language spoken by only 5 million people, so not very important, but of course it's always useful to increase the amount of translations of the wiki page.
648 2011-04-12 12:14:42 <yebyen> nanotube: but LRusd debit cards are real and can be used at regular USD stores, right?
649 2011-04-12 12:14:49 <Speeder> MagicalTux: hey, you showedup
650 2011-04-12 12:14:59 <MagicalTux> Speeder: it happens, sometimes
651 2011-04-12 12:15:04 <Speeder> they loved it :D
652 2011-04-12 12:15:12 <yebyen> and must be trusted, not the LR company
653 2011-04-12 12:15:13 <yebyen> i understand now
654 2011-04-12 12:15:14 <MagicalTux> I tend to be busy a lot busy lately
655 2011-04-12 12:15:14 <Speeder> MagicalTux:  you will implement it, don't you?
656 2011-04-12 12:15:34 <MagicalTux> Speeder: it will depend on the feedback from the community, I cannot take position until when I said I will (I gave myself one week)
657 2011-04-12 12:15:44 <Speeder> Oh
658 2011-04-12 12:15:51 <Speeder> MagicalTux:  btw, I voted wrong by accident on the pool
659 2011-04-12 12:15:55 <MagicalTux> if I take position now, it will most likely affect the result
660 2011-04-12 12:16:06 <Speeder> I voted "remove dark pool" instead of "iceberg"
661 2011-04-12 12:16:23 <dinox> I think we soon have 1btc=1$
662 2011-04-12 12:16:32 <yebyen> we had that for a while
663 2011-04-12 12:16:39 <sipa> what is iceberg?
664 2011-04-12 12:16:45 <dinox> then mining will be more $$$ than it already is
665 2011-04-12 12:16:49 <nanotube> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5564.0 <-- sipa
666 2011-04-12 12:16:53 <dinox> yebyen?
667 2011-04-12 12:17:13 <yebyen> dinox: look at the mtgox record, it won't be the first time prices have gone over $1USD/1BTC
668 2011-04-12 12:17:23 <krytzz> dinox: difficulty will rise and soon only 25btc per block :p
669 2011-04-12 12:17:35 <Speeder> MagicalTux:  rather, I want complete removal of dark pool, and introduction of iceber
670 2011-04-12 12:17:37 <Speeder> iceberg
671 2011-04-12 12:17:56 <dinox> yebyen: ok, but it was only a peak
672 2011-04-12 12:18:04 <yebyen> dinox: do you make a decent amount of BTC from mining?
673 2011-04-12 12:18:10 <dinox> krytzz: when is that happening?
674 2011-04-12 12:18:21 <yebyen> what is your system like, single machine?  many radeons?
675 2011-04-12 12:18:22 <ersi> topi`: Heh, howdy neighbour ;)
676 2011-04-12 12:18:28 <ersi> topi`: I'm a swede
677 2011-04-12 12:18:33 <MagicalTux> Speeder: in fact dark pool will not have any impact on the normal market, so I'm not sure there's any reason to delete itself, you can just ignore it
678 2011-04-12 12:18:40 <dinox> yebyen: about 10btc/day
679 2011-04-12 12:18:49 <topi`> ersi: I also speak swedish ;)
680 2011-04-12 12:18:53 <topi`> just like Linus
681 2011-04-12 12:19:01 <yebyen> dinox: shit, that's enough to keep me in a house
682 2011-04-12 12:19:29 <Speeder> MagicalTux:  dark pool make the normal market look more inactive
683 2011-04-12 12:19:31 <dinox> the rig cost me 10000kr ~1500$ I think
684 2011-04-12 12:19:52 <dinox> works awesome in games too
685 2011-04-12 12:20:06 <yebyen> just one beefy video card then?
686 2011-04-12 12:20:15 <yebyen> the nice cards i was looking at run $700
687 2011-04-12 12:20:38 <yebyen> "best for bitcoin mining" i think it was radeon HD7850
688 2011-04-12 12:20:52 <topi`> well, any new radeon is good :)
689 2011-04-12 12:21:01 <dinox> radeon 5970 is absolutely best i think
690 2011-04-12 12:21:06 <yebyen> how about cortex a9 :)
691 2011-04-12 12:21:14 <dinox> lol
692 2011-04-12 12:21:14 <yebyen> bwaha
693 2011-04-12 12:21:45 <yebyen> maybe good for a wallet
694 2011-04-12 12:21:48 <krytzz> yebyen: where do you get it and for how much
695 2011-04-12 12:22:10 <yebyen> krytzz: it's a tablet/arm processor
696 2011-04-12 12:22:29 <krytzz> ah omap4 is a9
697 2011-04-12 12:22:30 <dinox> it sucks for mining
698 2011-04-12 12:22:33 <krytzz> i thought it was a8
699 2011-04-12 12:22:56 <dinox> an decent fpga maybe, like ArtForz
700 2011-04-12 12:22:57 <krytzz> its good on power use, but probably not as good as gpus per mhash/s
701 2011-04-12 12:23:11 <dinox> 70mh at 3watts
702 2011-04-12 12:25:16 <krytzz> yebyen: i have a pandaboard actually, bit didnt test mining on it yet
703 2011-04-12 12:27:53 <ersi> dinox: How much power does that rig gobble?
704 2011-04-12 12:28:17 <dinox> i dont know... about 800w i think
705 2011-04-12 12:28:27 <dinox> have a 900w psu
706 2011-04-12 12:29:39 <yebyen> krytzz: what do you use it for?  android?
707 2011-04-12 12:29:58 <sipa> is it unreasonable to have no dark pools, no dark+normal, but do have iceberg?
708 2011-04-12 12:30:32 <eps2> what is an iceberg?
709 2011-04-12 12:30:39 <krytzz> yebyen: no, home server and tv input
710 2011-04-12 12:31:16 <sipa> eps2: just learned about it myself - http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5564.msg83075#msg83075
711 2011-04-12 12:34:22 <yebyen> tv input?
712 2011-04-12 12:35:02 <yebyen> don't you mean output?
713 2011-04-12 12:35:10 <yebyen> that reminds me, i bought an hdhomerun
714 2011-04-12 12:35:23 <krytzz> yebyen: yeah right, for watching movies and stuff
715 2011-04-12 12:36:04 <yebyen> aha
716 2011-04-12 12:37:29 <krytzz> much better than the players from asus, ac ryan etc because you can use your own software
717 2011-04-12 12:37:41 <yebyen> and it's coming today!
718 2011-04-12 12:37:48 <yebyen> i just have to bike 10 miles to get it and get back
719 2011-04-12 12:38:50 <krytzz> hdhomerun is probably the same
720 2011-04-12 12:40:23 <yebyen> hdhomerun is basically two tuners that accept ClearQAM HD signals
721 2011-04-12 12:40:32 <krytzz> ah it has no hdmi out?
722 2011-04-12 12:40:32 <yebyen> you need a computer driving mythtv to make it really useful
723 2011-04-12 12:40:35 <krytzz> ah ok
724 2011-04-12 12:40:38 <yebyen> ethernet
725 2011-04-12 12:40:48 <yebyen> $130
726 2011-04-12 12:40:51 <krytzz> ok its a different type of device
727 2011-04-12 12:41:18 <topi`> krytzz: I have a dual Cortex-A9 (Toshiba AC100) and compiled jgarzik's miner, it gives out 175 khash per thread
728 2011-04-12 12:41:22 <yebyen> right
729 2011-04-12 12:41:30 <krytzz> these players for around $100 with hdmi out you cant poke with the software, thats sad
730 2011-04-12 12:41:31 <yebyen> tv input
731 2011-04-12 12:41:46 <krytzz> topi`: oh no, worse than i expected :)
732 2011-04-12 12:41:55 <topi`> the AC100 takes barely any electricity when I have shut down the backlight and the Bluetooth :)
733 2011-04-12 12:42:05 <krytzz> yeah
734 2011-04-12 12:42:05 <topi`> krytzz: the code ought to be optimized
735 2011-04-12 12:42:15 <krytzz> with ~500 it could be awesome
736 2011-04-12 12:42:31 <topi`> maybe I should sit down and write some NEON code. It has the same kind of facilities to do rotates on 128-bit vectors
737 2011-04-12 12:42:34 <krytzz> and we could also use the powervr chip and the dsp somehow :)
738 2011-04-12 12:43:03 <krytzz> ah right
739 2011-04-12 12:44:12 <topi`> i'm still waiting for those 4- and 8-core ARM chips :)
740 2011-04-12 12:46:03 <topi`> on the Toshiba, the difference between running miners on the cores and not running anything is meager, because the rest of the system consumes more power than the two ARM cores.
741 2011-04-12 12:46:44 <topi`> in a way, the tiny coins mined on ARMs are profitable because the cost of electricity is negligible
742 2011-04-12 12:47:10 <topi`> I can run my Tegra 250 on a very small solar cell
743 2011-04-12 12:47:43 <krytzz> yeah, if you have the device already and its not running on battery
744 2011-04-12 12:54:10 <Diablo-D3> erm
745 2011-04-12 12:54:14 <Diablo-D3> mining on cpus is stupid
746 2011-04-12 12:56:16 <krytzz> Diablo-D3: if you get 1mhash/s for 2w its ok
747 2011-04-12 12:56:31 <Diablo-D3> no its not
748 2011-04-12 12:56:35 <Diablo-D3> thats 0.5w efficiency
749 2011-04-12 12:56:46 <Diablo-D3> radeon 5xxx are up around 2
750 2011-04-12 12:57:19 <krytzz> right but if you run the device anyway
751 2011-04-12 12:57:39 <krytzz> then you could count the additional power need for the mining (probably less than 1w)
752 2011-04-12 12:58:13 <krytzz> its a corner case sure, you cant buy tons of arm devices
753 2011-04-12 13:03:18 <Stonetz> also it depends if you're pooling it with something else and giving it a little bump or if it's just solo. If it's just solo and will solve a block in 2 years if you're lucky then it's not worth the efficiency
754 2011-04-12 13:04:39 <krytzz> solo mining is always bad if you dont have a room full of gpus
755 2011-04-12 13:12:39 <Stonetz> might not need a room full but yeah I agree with your point
756 2011-04-12 13:14:30 <lfm> however if you are loosing money paying for power on something inneficient, it doesnt help to have more of them
757 2011-04-12 13:14:52 <BurtyB> heh
758 2011-04-12 13:16:19 <lfm> krytzz: and you can make a profit on just one gpu, not hard at all
759 2011-04-12 13:16:31 <mtrlt> but the profit is small
760 2011-04-12 13:16:54 <mtrlt> i calculated getting like 30-40 EUR/month with my HD5850
761 2011-04-12 13:17:13 <lfm> not really, it can easily pay for itself in a few months
762 2011-04-12 13:17:38 <hozer> are you actually getting Euro? through what exchange?
763 2011-04-12 13:18:10 <mtrlt> no, i just converted BTC to EUR
764 2011-04-12 13:18:33 <hozer> so it's not *really* euro ;)
765 2011-04-12 13:18:36 <mtrlt> but you can send an d receive EUR in the SEPA zone from MtGox
766 2011-04-12 13:18:37 <mtrlt> :P
767 2011-04-12 13:18:39 <hozer> have you bought anything with BTC
768 2011-04-12 13:18:46 <mtrlt> not yet
769 2011-04-12 13:18:49 <mtrlt> just hoarding lots of it
770 2011-04-12 13:18:53 <hozer> HAH
771 2011-04-12 13:19:09 <hozer> see, this hoarding problem is going to kill bitcoin
772 2011-04-12 13:19:23 <Diablo-D3> [10:57:19] <krytzz> right but if you run the device anyway
773 2011-04-12 13:19:25 <hozer> currency is only worth something when it circulates
774 2011-04-12 13:19:27 <Diablo-D3> its a fucking ARM
775 2011-04-12 13:19:30 <Diablo-D3> its most likely portable
776 2011-04-12 13:19:30 <mtrlt> but in some time i'm going to finally sell my game
777 2011-04-12 13:19:32 <lfm> ya sure, its all mtrlt 's fault
778 2011-04-12 13:19:34 <Diablo-D3> quit fucking your battery life
779 2011-04-12 13:19:36 <mtrlt> and you can pay with bitcoins too :)
780 2011-04-12 13:20:08 <krytzz> Diablo-D3: there are plugged arm devices, like pandaboard
781 2011-04-12 13:20:42 <mtrlt> the current problem is that i can't eat BTC, i.e. i can't buy food with it :(
782 2011-04-12 13:20:52 <hozer> how much sorghum do you want?
783 2011-04-12 13:20:55 <Diablo-D3> mtrlt: actually you can
784 2011-04-12 13:21:02 <Diablo-D3> someone bought a pizza with btc once
785 2011-04-12 13:21:06 <mtrlt> Diablo-D3: :D
786 2011-04-12 13:21:10 <mtrlt> awesome
787 2011-04-12 13:21:12 <Diablo-D3> with whats now worth like $80k USD
788 2011-04-12 13:21:17 <mtrlt> lol
789 2011-04-12 13:21:21 <Diablo-D3> most expensive pizza ever
790 2011-04-12 13:21:27 <mtrlt> haha
791 2011-04-12 13:21:38 <hozer> I'd rather have the pizza
792 2011-04-12 13:21:54 <hozer> cause then I'd be able to say I ate an $80,000 pizza
793 2011-04-12 13:22:42 <hozer> I guess I should just put the sorghum on the marketplace forum
794 2011-04-12 13:22:58 <lfm> Im sure someone could arrange it for ya. Theyd just need a phone number of some pizza joint in your town and buy the pizza on a credit card when you send them the btc
795 2011-04-12 13:23:00 <mtrlt> new word learned: sorghum
796 2011-04-12 13:23:45 <sipa> i believe it was for 10000 BTC, which would be $8300 now :)
797 2011-04-12 13:23:59 <mtrlt> heh
798 2011-04-12 13:24:53 <mtrlt> lfm: yea, but it'd be quite complex :P
799 2011-04-12 13:25:09 <UukGoblin> britcoin is 'temporarily down for today (11 apr)'
800 2011-04-12 13:25:18 <UukGoblin> I was pretty sure it is 12 apr today
801 2011-04-12 13:25:21 <lfm> just gotta find a pizza joint that would accept a phone in credit card number
802 2011-04-12 13:25:49 <lfm> UukGoblin: it would depend what part of the world you are in i guess
803 2011-04-12 13:26:12 <UukGoblin> lfm, well, bRitcoin sounds bRitish, and that's where I am :-]
804 2011-04-12 13:26:19 <mtrlt> it's not 11 apr any more in any part of the world
805 2011-04-12 13:26:22 <UukGoblin> been a tuesday here for 16.5 hours already ;-]
806 2011-04-12 13:27:05 <lfm> ya it apr 13 already some places, I dont think it is still the 11th anywhere
807 2011-04-12 13:27:40 <mtrlt> unless there is a -17 hour time zone or something, which there isn't
808 2011-04-12 13:30:02 <lfm> mtrlt: can your bank convert currency for ya if like you get a cheque in us dollars?
809 2011-04-12 13:30:18 <mtrlt> i have never seen a cheque so i don't know :P
810 2011-04-12 13:30:23 <mtrlt> sounds like the eighties
811 2011-04-12 13:30:36 <mtrlt> but i guess they would
812 2011-04-12 13:30:49 <mtrlt> they'd have to since my bank account can only contain euros
813 2011-04-12 13:32:18 <lfm> well there is probably someplace you can convert dollars anyway and you can get cheques in us$ for bitcoin without too much trouble so you could eat your btc eventually if you really wanted to
814 2011-04-12 13:32:33 <mtrlt> i can already withdraw them from mtgox
815 2011-04-12 13:32:39 <mtrlt> in euros :)
816 2011-04-12 13:32:59 <mtrlt> cause i'm in the SEPA zone
817 2011-04-12 13:33:14 <lfm> ya Liberty euros or whatever that you still have to get converted somehow
818 2011-04-12 13:33:40 <hozer> .. sorghum pictures .. http://excalibur.hozed.org/~hozer/photos/Sorghum/2010/Food/
819 2011-04-12 13:34:51 <mtrlt> lfm: no, direct bank wire
820 2011-04-12 13:34:57 <mtrlt> directly to my bank account
821 2011-04-12 13:35:07 <lfm> oh ok, thats cool then
822 2011-04-12 13:35:44 <lfm> I dont understand then why you say you cant eat em
823 2011-04-12 13:36:14 <mtrlt> i can't buy food directly with BTC
824 2011-04-12 13:36:17 <mtrlt> i have to convert them to EUR first
825 2011-04-12 13:36:38 <Speeder> we need to convince a supermarket to accept BTC XD
826 2011-04-12 13:36:46 <lfm> well if you wanna get that way, you cant eat euros either, you gotta trade em for food somehow first
827 2011-04-12 13:37:34 <mtrlt> yes but the point is, i can't trade BTC directly for food.
828 2011-04-12 13:37:42 <mtrlt> maybe my choice of words wasn't exact :P
829 2011-04-12 13:38:04 <lfm> so they are no different, and maybe even slightly better than us$ for you
830 2011-04-12 13:38:08 <mtrlt> and yeah, waiting in the supermarket line for an hour as your payment gets confirmed would be awesome :P
831 2011-04-12 13:38:10 <gavinandresen> mtrit: not yet.  David, the alpaca farmer with the famous alpaca socks, was thinking about selling farm shares for bitcoin....
832 2011-04-12 13:38:29 <mtrlt> :D
833 2011-04-12 13:39:06 <lfm> ya btc in a physical store would suck, thats not what they are designed for
834 2011-04-12 13:39:10 <mtrlt> well for me the problem of USD is the same as the problem of BTC. can't buy food, have to convert to EUR first.
835 2011-04-12 13:50:02 <lfm> i see. so one extra step means you will starve with 1000s of btc sitting there I spoze
836 2011-04-12 13:51:50 <Stonetz> I'm thinking about doing some importing products for bitcoin
837 2011-04-12 13:52:03 <Stonetz> wondering if someone else would be interested in the sales side
838 2011-04-12 13:52:06 <lfm> its like complaining you dont like your employer cuz he doesnt pay you in food, only euros
839 2011-04-12 13:52:48 <Stonetz> anyone on here have an online retail business in place already?
840 2011-04-12 13:53:09 <Speeder> I plan to have to
841 2011-04-12 13:53:11 <Speeder> but I have nothing to sell
842 2011-04-12 13:53:30 <lfm> stonetz what you wanna buy
843 2011-04-12 13:53:33 <nanotube> knotwork: what kind of products? i think madhatter has a few bitcoin stores out there... you could see if he'd be interested in cooperating
844 2011-04-12 13:53:56 <Speeder> I want to sell games
845 2011-04-12 13:53:57 <Speeder> :D
846 2011-04-12 13:54:01 <Speeder> or code
847 2011-04-12 13:54:04 <Speeder> or design
848 2011-04-12 13:54:47 <Stonetz> sell, not buy
849 2011-04-12 13:54:49 <Stonetz> I live in CHile
850 2011-04-12 13:55:09 <Stonetz> Chile, sorry keep holding shift too long
851 2011-04-12 13:55:12 <Stonetz> probably wine
852 2011-04-12 13:55:30 <Stonetz> I've got friends that export it, pretty cheap but good stuff and I think btc could work well with that
853 2011-04-12 13:55:48 <Stonetz> also a few other things like alpaca socks
854 2011-04-12 13:55:58 <Stonetz> not enough of those on the btc market
855 2011-04-12 13:56:00 <Stonetz> =0
856 2011-04-12 13:56:06 <lfm> ya, cant do that here cuz gvmn has a monopoly on booze
857 2011-04-12 13:57:33 <Stonetz> where is here?
858 2011-04-12 13:57:44 <Speeder> what is gvmn?
859 2011-04-12 13:57:52 <Stonetz> government I'm guessing
860 2011-04-12 13:58:24 <lfm> ya government, they really like to pile taxes on booze so they are the only ones allowed to import it
861 2011-04-12 13:59:44 <lfm> Canada, the only exception is if I go get it in person and carry it over the border
862 2011-04-12 13:59:44 <Stonetz> where are you at?
863 2011-04-12 13:59:49 <Stonetz> ah
864 2011-04-12 14:00:11 <Stonetz> you sure thats for liquor wine and beer?
865 2011-04-12 14:00:24 <lfm> ya, all booze
866 2011-04-12 14:00:37 <Stonetz> don't you guys have independent beer and wine stores?
867 2011-04-12 14:00:49 <Stonetz> havent' been to canada for 5+ years or so
868 2011-04-12 14:01:24 <Speeder> Brazil is the land of booze
869 2011-04-12 14:01:32 <Speeder> Brazil has the biggest beer company of the world
870 2011-04-12 14:01:35 <lfm> like I said, they love to pile the taxes onto booze
871 2011-04-12 14:04:05 <Stonetz> yeah, that sucks, guess I'll just have to deal with the US
872 2011-04-12 14:04:10 <hozer> hrrm.. maybe I should sell shares in this on-farm ethanol business in bitcoin
873 2011-04-12 14:04:39 <hozer> Stonetz: what local ag products are there near you?
874 2011-04-12 14:04:51 <lfm> hozer: you got a moonshine still out back? grin
875 2011-04-12 14:05:38 <hozer> I cannot recommend any production of moonshine without proper tax permits ;)
876 2011-04-12 14:06:43 <lfm> hehe how large is the bottle?
877 2011-04-12 14:06:46 <hozer> and 1/3 of that will be for the alcohol tax
878 2011-04-12 14:06:49 <hozer> 750ml
879 2011-04-12 14:07:10 <lfm> jeez, it better be pretty darn good stuff at that price
880 2011-04-12 14:07:53 <hozer> lfm: where you at
881 2011-04-12 14:08:06 <hozer> if you want cheap, go get everclear ;)
882 2011-04-12 14:08:47 <lfm> well I think canadian club is cheaper than that
883 2011-04-12 14:08:48 <hozer> so once I get this all set up, I'm pretty sure I will be the only artisan distiller that actually grows his own feedstock
884 2011-04-12 14:09:46 <hozer> oh it's easy to grow
885 2011-04-12 14:10:01 <Stonetz> made sell those