1 2011-04-13 00:00:17 <sgornick> Lycurgus: Pretty safe to say more than 7,609 K, based on this: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=https://smsz.net/btcStats/bitcoin.kml  and https://smsz.net/btcStats/accepting
  2 2011-04-13 00:01:12 <Diablo-D3> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPgBooaydtI
  3 2011-04-13 00:03:42 <luke-jr> tcatm: I wonder how practical it would be to constantly build a "rainbow table" of addresses 24/7, and use it to find vanity addresses quickly (for sale)
  4 2011-04-13 00:04:19 <tcatm> luke-jr: mhm lots of trust involved
  5 2011-04-13 00:04:31 <luke-jr> tcatm: true
  6 2011-04-13 00:05:31 <Lycurgus> sgornick, seems like the distinct criteria would be failing there a lot
  7 2011-04-13 00:05:31 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, what?
  8 2011-04-13 00:05:39 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit_: ?
  9 2011-04-13 00:05:48 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, couldn't you do that simply by keeping track of which addresses see more than 1 transaction?
 10 2011-04-13 00:06:01 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit_: huh?
 11 2011-04-13 00:06:14 <phantomcircuit_> oh nvm
 12 2011-04-13 00:06:18 <phantomcircuit_> i see what you're saying
 13 2011-04-13 00:06:19 <phantomcircuit_> hmm
 14 2011-04-13 00:06:22 <phantomcircuit_> an interesting though
 15 2011-04-13 00:06:26 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit_: I'm talking about saving up lots of ECDSA keys indexed by a searchable address, so you can sell "an address with your name in it"
 16 2011-04-13 00:06:36 <phantomcircuit_> yeah
 17 2011-04-13 00:07:11 <luke-jr> I suppose I could finish my quantum computer emulator to just find a matching address fast& <.<
 18 2011-04-13 00:07:22 <phantomcircuit_> lol
 19 2011-04-13 00:07:40 <luke-jr> (srsly, that was getting too complex and I have no practical use for it, so I quit :P)
 20 2011-04-13 00:09:43 <sgornick> Lycurgus: Those ip's are not unique?  or do you mean a single user might be running more than one node?
 21 2011-04-13 00:10:05 <Lycurgus> the latter
 22 2011-04-13 00:10:23 <Lycurgus> or both even
 23 2011-04-13 00:10:57 <sgornick> i'ld bet the number who use an ewallet and aren't in the list outnumber by an order of magnitude those who have multiple nodes.
 24 2011-04-13 00:13:41 <Lycurgus> but the map didn't have 7K points
 25 2011-04-13 00:14:06 <Lachesis> ;;lastblock
 26 2011-04-13 00:14:08 <gribble> Error: "lastblock" is not a valid command.
 27 2011-04-13 00:16:23 <sgornick> Lycurgus: It doesn't?   The kml has about 1300+ using the style that displays green, and 4300+ using the style that displays red.
 28 2011-04-13 00:19:32 <phantomcircuit_> sgornick, there's like 4k nodes, of which about 1k are connectable
 29 2011-04-13 00:19:38 <Kiba> I think the map of bitcoin nodes
 30 2011-04-13 00:19:48 <Kiba> is highly correlated to places of high connectivity
 31 2011-04-13 00:20:13 <Lycurgus> kml
 32 2011-04-13 00:20:55 <Kiba> but our weakness is that we don't have a decentralized system for transfering money across nation states
 33 2011-04-13 00:21:25 <Lycurgus> i'm more or less brand new
 34 2011-04-13 00:21:40 <Lycurgus> but the weakness seems to me to be at the value binding point
 35 2011-04-13 00:22:00 <Lycurgus> about which I'm still less than clear
 36 2011-04-13 00:22:08 <sgornick> phantomcircuit: https://smsz.net/btcStats/accepting {"up":"1624","down":"5894","unknown":"1","total_known":7518,"total":7519,"  so you are saying those are not accurate?
 37 2011-04-13 00:23:20 <Lycurgus> Kiba, I thought bc was that system
 38 2011-04-13 00:23:24 <Kiba> the exchanges are pretty much centralized
 39 2011-04-13 00:23:39 <Kiba> bitcoin itself is distributed
 40 2011-04-13 00:23:46 <Kiba> very difficult to take down
 41 2011-04-13 00:24:50 <Lycurgus> national currencies obtain their real value in the economies where they are accepted as the money commodity
 42 2011-04-13 00:26:16 <Kiba> if the bitcoin economy is concentracted in one location, you could have a real local economy
 43 2011-04-13 00:28:40 <Lycurgus> in the world system the value binding occurs in the referred to market transactions and in the fractional reserve lending at the heart of capitalist money creation
 44 2011-04-13 00:29:09 <Lycurgus> but primarily and fundamentally the former
 45 2011-04-13 00:30:12 <Lycurgus> which can only lag the latter by so much
 46 2011-04-13 00:30:46 <jrabbit> Lycurgus: that went over my head was it econ speak
 47 2011-04-13 00:33:17 <Lycurgus> well this (bitcoin) is about economics
 48 2011-04-13 00:33:51 <jrabbit> "economics" and jargon used to keep economicists paid are two differing things.
 49 2011-04-13 00:35:50 <Lycurgus> whatever
 50 2011-04-13 00:36:58 <Kiba> I don't think fractional reserve lending lies at the heart of capitalist money creation
 51 2011-04-13 00:37:03 <Kiba> that sound like gibberish
 52 2011-04-13 00:37:19 <Lycurgus> it isn't
 53 2011-04-13 00:37:50 <Kiba> sounds like capitalists rely on fractional reserve banking
 54 2011-04-13 00:38:07 <phantomcircuit_> Lycurgus, fractional reserve banking is nothing more than a confidence game
 55 2011-04-13 00:38:26 <Lycurgus> well it's lending, usury, whatever you want to call it
 56 2011-04-13 00:38:37 <Kiba> lending itself is not bad
 57 2011-04-13 00:38:43 <Lycurgus> no it isn't
 58 2011-04-13 00:38:55 <Lycurgus> it's just a service
 59 2011-04-13 00:39:05 <Lycurgus> in principle it's neutral
 60 2011-04-13 00:39:27 <Kiba> anyway
 61 2011-04-13 00:40:26 <phantomcircuit_> Lycurgus, it's neither lending nor usury
 62 2011-04-13 00:40:30 <Lycurgus> but the fundamental source of value is that people accept the money commodity as a generalization of value in exchange for things of real value
 63 2011-04-13 00:40:54 <Lycurgus> such as their labor power
 64 2011-04-13 00:41:26 <phantomcircuit_> and they do so because....?
 65 2011-04-13 00:41:27 <Lycurgus> phantomcircuit, lending is not lending?
 66 2011-04-13 00:41:48 <phantomcircuit_> Lycurgus, it's not lending if you have nothing to lend
 67 2011-04-13 00:42:27 <Lycurgus> the money commodity is not nothing. It has no intrinsic use val ...
 68 2011-04-13 00:42:51 <Kiba> fractional reserve lending c an lead to instabilities
 69 2011-04-13 00:42:56 <Lycurgus> the money commodity is not nothing. It has no intrinsic use value, but that's irrelevant as it comes to command every actual real value
 70 2011-04-13 00:43:38 <Kiba> but subsidizing fractional reserve lending can lead to worse bubbles
 71 2011-04-13 00:44:16 <JFK911> how do i fractional reserve lend bitcoins
 72 2011-04-13 00:45:56 <Lycurgus> just apply a contract structure for such a transaction to the existing mechanism
 73 2011-04-13 00:46:17 <Kiba> the risk is that rumors will go around that your bank is insovlent
 74 2011-04-13 00:46:21 <Kiba> which can lead to a bank run
 75 2011-04-13 00:47:49 <Kiba> and there's no central bank you can run to
 76 2011-04-13 00:47:55 <Lycurgus> the essence of how the value in labor power, produced goods, etc. is bound to the money commodity in national economies is in the double entry accounting of that commodity performed in the real economies
 77 2011-04-13 00:49:26 <Lycurgus> bc or something like it could replace the fiat currencies of the nation states if there were a path for it to become the reference currency in such ledgers
 78 2011-04-13 00:49:42 <nanotube> JFK911: see the ,,(bc,wiki myths) page on that. it's no different than fractional reserve of anything else.
 79 2011-04-13 00:49:43 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths | Mar 25, 2011 ... Myths. From Bitcoin. Jump to: navigation, search ... See myth https://en.bitcoin .it/wiki/Myths#Bitcoin_is_backed_by_CPU_cycles ...
 80 2011-04-13 00:49:59 <Kiba> had no idea what you talk about, Lycurgus
 81 2011-04-13 00:51:44 <Lycurgus> and simply providing a zero or neglible transaction cost for exchange between said currencies is an excellent path to that result
 82 2011-04-13 00:52:01 <Lycurgus> which apparently is the established strategy
 83 2011-04-13 00:54:47 <Kiba> it's not easy to exchange nation-state currences into dollars
 84 2011-04-13 00:55:14 <Lycurgus> particular nation states aren't important
 85 2011-04-13 00:55:44 <Kiba> if it were, than the difficulty of exchanging no longer become the chokepoint for adoption
 86 2011-04-13 00:55:49 <jgarzik> There is nothing fundamentally wrong with fractional reserve.  Almost every mutual fund out there could be considered fractional reserve (with the reserve being the 1% or so they keep on hand for redemptions).  Fractional reserve just means you handed your money to someone, who is investing it.
 87 2011-04-13 00:56:01 <jgarzik> Banks just need to come with a disclaimer "risky investment"
 88 2011-04-13 00:56:19 <Lycurgus> what's important is that participants accept the money commodity as a store and measure of value
 89 2011-04-13 00:58:42 <Lycurgus> once there are large numbers of users in different currency jurisdictions the transition can be precipitous
 90 2011-04-13 00:59:42 <Lycurgus> i would expect that extant finance capital is already looking at this though with a view to coopting it
 91 2011-04-13 01:03:09 <noagendamarket> why? they can just start a new chain
 92 2011-04-13 01:03:16 <noagendamarket> and have bakcoins
 93 2011-04-13 01:03:23 <noagendamarket> *bankcoins
 94 2011-04-13 01:06:17 <Lycurgus> noagendamarket, the whole bc system is a single chain?
 95 2011-04-13 01:07:06 <luke-jr> yes
 96 2011-04-13 01:09:20 <noagendamarket> yes
 97 2011-04-13 01:09:41 <noagendamarket> everyone in the network has a copy
 98 2011-04-13 01:09:46 <noagendamarket> its a giant ledger
 99 2011-04-13 01:10:00 <Lycurgus> so it's of the essence that there be a single system that no one owns
100 2011-04-13 01:10:10 <noagendamarket> yep
101 2011-04-13 01:10:29 <Lycurgus> hence no "bankcoins"
102 2011-04-13 01:10:33 <noagendamarket> well
103 2011-04-13 01:10:54 <noagendamarket> if they created a new genesis block and all the banks used it
104 2011-04-13 01:10:55 <Kiba> everyone owns their own copies
105 2011-04-13 01:10:58 <midnightmagic> it is almost certain that coopting it would either be denied, or would destroy the currency.
106 2011-04-13 01:11:13 <midnightmagic> banks won't use a deflationary currency.
107 2011-04-13 01:11:25 <noagendamarket> just saying
108 2011-04-13 01:11:39 <Kiba> maybe not traditional banks who are afraid to rock the boart
109 2011-04-13 01:11:42 <Kiba> s/boart/boat
110 2011-04-13 01:11:55 <Kiba> like I said, if I were goldman sach, I would invest a million dollars into bitcoin right now
111 2011-04-13 01:11:55 <midnightmagic> nothing to do with boats.
112 2011-04-13 01:12:03 <Lycurgus> the general phenom is cryptocurrency, there could be a proliferation of networks with objective flat exchange between them
113 2011-04-13 01:12:04 <midnightmagic> that would be a huge mistake.
114 2011-04-13 01:12:23 <Kiba> huge mistake?
115 2011-04-13 01:12:29 <midnightmagic> Lycurgus: that also wouldn't make much sense, because we all conceptually are quite aware of how hard it is to mine each one.
116 2011-04-13 01:12:36 <Kiba> as a profit-oriented CEO, I would
117 2011-04-13 01:12:43 <midnightmagic> Kiba: yeah, investing $1mil in it.
118 2011-04-13 01:13:15 <Kiba> well, it could reap me a trillion dollars in profit someday
119 2011-04-13 01:13:22 <midnightmagic> perhaps over time, but all at once? you'll crash it.
120 2011-04-13 01:13:40 <Lycurgus> i'm ignoring the details of the particular crypto setup and it's ancillary concepts such as "mining"
121 2011-04-13 01:13:53 <Lycurgus> *its
122 2011-04-13 01:14:26 <Kiba> I mean...I don't give a damn about controlling the people
123 2011-04-13 01:14:27 <midnightmagic> then what do you mean by "flat exchange"?
124 2011-04-13 01:14:29 <Kiba> I just want money!
125 2011-04-13 01:14:35 <Lycurgus> that's irrelevant, the real value comes from the real world just as in existing money
126 2011-04-13 01:14:47 <Lycurgus> s/existing/conventional general/
127 2011-04-13 01:15:16 <midnightmagic> Kiba: those are public companies. you can't just spend $1mil in a public company without divulging what you're doing. and if you are a private investor, then you bubble the currency rather than grow it (as happened recently) and your value is recoupable for years.
128 2011-04-13 01:15:39 <midnightmagic> is => isn't
129 2011-04-13 01:15:58 <Kiba> whatever how I can invest 1 million dollars
130 2011-04-13 01:16:09 <Kiba> without destroying the economy
131 2011-04-13 01:16:09 <sacarlson> I was hoping to try a test bitcoin that had a fixed number of coins from start to finish with no growth that would be shares of an entity, how would that be done?
132 2011-04-13 01:16:12 <midnightmagic> meanwhile, you could've put smaller investments into it over time and grown the currency as a currency, thus encouraging much more rapid growth, and made more.
133 2011-04-13 01:17:10 <midnightmagic> sacarlson: let us know when you build the code, i'll help you test it, unless testing it requires I pay you money, in which case I won't.
134 2011-04-13 01:17:18 <sacarlson> then the currency won't grow just the number of currency in this case would grow
135 2011-04-13 01:18:00 <sacarlson> midnightmagic: I have now compiled the code or just the bitcoind part of it, and I'm looking at it now
136 2011-04-13 01:18:23 <phantomcircuit> sacarlson, that's basically how bitcoin works after 2015 or is it 2016?
137 2011-04-13 01:19:24 <sacarlson> phantomcircuit: yes but I want this to be fixed from start to finish,  why would you need to grow the currency in this case?
138 2011-04-13 01:20:01 <phantomcircuit> sacarlson, what?
139 2011-04-13 01:20:05 <phantomcircuit> there isn't a finish
140 2011-04-13 01:20:12 <Lycurgus> Kiba, are you saying that placing a buy order for 1million$ at current BTC exchange rates would destroy bc?
141 2011-04-13 01:20:22 <midnightmagic> Kiba: you make a 25% mining farm which adds enough mining infrastructure over time to ensure you always stay at 25%; you build infrastructure capable of handling bitcoins, and you get it in the hands of merchants. you supply direct currency exchange markets so merchants aren't frightened away. you use your mined coins as secret backing and you don't tell anyone you're mining. this necessitates being a private company.
142 2011-04-13 01:21:30 <sacarlson> phantomcircuit: well in this case there could be a finish, when someone or a group buys all or a mojority of all the coins then they can decide to desoulve or liquidate the entity
143 2011-04-13 01:21:33 <midnightmagic> Lycurgus: I'm saying it would hurt the BTC economy to disappear those coins and sit on $1mil. the biggest market (mtgox) doesn't do anywhere near those volumes, as far as I can tell.
144 2011-04-13 01:21:57 <[Noodles]> sacarlson: how would you distribute the fixed number from the start? who owns them at start?
145 2011-04-13 01:21:58 <Kiba> 40 K dollars on a good day..
146 2011-04-13 01:22:16 <midnightmagic> well we don't know what the dark pool stuff does.
147 2011-04-13 01:22:19 <[Noodles]> you own them all and everyopne that comes after you has to buy from you?
148 2011-04-13 01:22:23 <midnightmagic> who knows the limits there..
149 2011-04-13 01:22:46 <midnightmagic> [Noodles]: that doesn't make any sense, because miners still mine.
150 2011-04-13 01:23:02 <[Noodles]> huh?
151 2011-04-13 01:23:03 <sacarlson> [Noodles]: you would sell them for other coins or currency from the start
152 2011-04-13 01:23:18 <[Noodles]> miners will still have to mine when all 21m are in circulation
153 2011-04-13 01:23:28 <[Noodles]> so its not a matter of mining at all
154 2011-04-13 01:23:30 <luke-jr> buy buy buy
155 2011-04-13 01:23:36 <midnightmagic> ah, you're talking about distant future then.
156 2011-04-13 01:23:50 <[Noodles]> sacarlson: i got that, but who is "you"?
157 2011-04-13 01:23:58 <Lycurgus> yeah, you shouldn't have to "mine" to attach value from the real world to the currency
158 2011-04-13 01:24:00 <midnightmagic> [Noodles]: ah, you're not even talking to me are you. :)
159 2011-04-13 01:24:16 <midnightmagic> Lycurgus: that's not the purpose of mining.
160 2011-04-13 01:24:35 <midnightmagic> Mining is the backbone of the security of the currency.
161 2011-04-13 01:24:36 <sacarlson> [Noodles]: remind you it starts from something not nothing,  someone invest in buying a thing say 1 once of gold and says that now sell parts of this 1 onunce of gold as parts in the form of gbitcoins
162 2011-04-13 01:24:52 <Lycurgus> but it's also necessary to attach value?
163 2011-04-13 01:24:59 <luke-jr> &
164 2011-04-13 01:25:06 <luke-jr> without mining, nobody can transfer coins
165 2011-04-13 01:25:20 <luke-jr> without significantly high mining, anyone can take over the network
166 2011-04-13 01:25:37 <Lycurgus> understood
167 2011-04-13 01:25:49 <sacarlson> midnightmagic: see that's what I didn't understand mining is the backbone of the security of the currency
168 2011-04-13 01:25:58 <Lycurgus> but that shouild be distinct from the function of general money
169 2011-04-13 01:26:10 <midnightmagic> how so?
170 2011-04-13 01:26:39 <midnightmagic> it's how the cryptography allows for the currency to begin with. it's intrinsically linked. one doesn't exist without the other.
171 2011-04-13 01:26:54 <luke-jr> if you can't spend it, it can't function as money
172 2011-04-13 01:26:59 <Lycurgus> with general money, it's of the essence that if I have of thing of arbitrary value, I can give a money price for it
173 2011-04-13 01:27:05 <luke-jr> if someone can spend it twice, it functions poorly
174 2011-04-13 01:27:08 <Lycurgus> that's why it's called the price system
175 2011-04-13 01:27:20 <Kiba> mining enable that "price system"
176 2011-04-13 01:27:23 <luke-jr> Lycurgus: only if you can transfer it to someone else
177 2011-04-13 01:27:31 <luke-jr> if you can't transfer ownership, you can't sell it
178 2011-04-13 01:27:36 <luke-jr> thus, no value
179 2011-04-13 01:27:37 <midnightmagic> Lycurgus: right, go on.
180 2011-04-13 01:27:59 <sacarlson> luke-jr I didn't relise that part,  so my Idea is somewhat trashed then I think,  otherwise how could you desolve a currency that is being mined?
181 2011-04-13 01:28:03 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
182 2011-04-13 01:28:05 <gribble> Current Blocks: 118090 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 853 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 5 hours, 49 minutes, and 3 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 91099.83582564
183 2011-04-13 01:28:19 <midnightmagic> geh, 91k.
184 2011-04-13 01:28:24 <Kiba> wowzer difficulty!
185 2011-04-13 01:28:49 <hozer> yeesh
186 2011-04-13 01:28:54 <hozer> when did that change?
187 2011-04-13 01:29:42 <midnightmagic> that's approaching mystery-miner rates..
188 2011-04-13 01:29:57 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,mtgox
189 2011-04-13 01:29:58 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.8999,"low":0.771,"vol":46732,"buy":0.8626,"sell":0.88,"last":0.88}}
190 2011-04-13 01:30:40 <Kiba> kissing 0.90..
191 2011-04-13 01:31:12 <Kiba> the market don wanna touch .90
192 2011-04-13 01:31:15 <Kiba> it's taboo
193 2011-04-13 01:31:52 <midnightmagic> it's the stopper people putting the chunky buy/sells in the open where people can see them.
194 2011-04-13 01:32:00 <Kiba> so we're at 700 GH/s
195 2011-04-13 01:33:33 <midnightmagic> 652 @ 91099.83582564
196 2011-04-13 01:33:53 <midnightmagic> that's not really that much computing power.
197 2011-04-13 01:35:08 <Kiba> well, it's a kinda a supercomputer I guess
198 2011-04-13 01:36:12 <midnightmagic> kiba: it's about the equivalent of 1086x5970s..
199 2011-04-13 01:37:03 <Kiba> that's a lot of 5970s though
200 2011-04-13 01:37:10 <midnightmagic> if 1100 people were all mining with one 5970, that's not very many people. say on average there are 4 per person. that's only 271. or, 8: 135. That's a small handful. :(
201 2011-04-13 01:38:04 <Kiba> we're a really small community
202 2011-04-13 01:38:13 <midnightmagic> that to me is fragility.
203 2011-04-13 01:38:13 <sacarlson> midnightmagic: well there are a total of 2900 people on the total network that I can see so what percent of those are mining?
204 2011-04-13 01:38:56 <midnightmagic> if there are on average 4 cards per miner, then that's 270 miners. total number of people in the network is almost irrelevant. but, 270/2900 = 9.3%
205 2011-04-13 01:38:57 <Kiba> the bitcoin creature is compelling us to buy 5970s
206 2011-04-13 01:39:12 <Kiba> and compelling us to spread its memes
207 2011-04-13 01:39:51 <midnightmagic> so, maybe 1 in 10 "nodes" is mining at 5970 rates, but that's not even accurate because not everyone mines with 5970s.
208 2011-04-13 01:40:12 <midnightmagic> there's not a lot of point in speculating about that.
209 2011-04-13 01:41:01 <Kiba> so
210 2011-04-13 01:41:03 <Kiba> the economy is small
211 2011-04-13 01:41:06 <Kiba> what else is new?
212 2011-04-13 01:41:45 <sacarlson> seems the weakness I see in bitcoins is there is that it depends on a single irc chanel, it that server failed would bitcoins still function?
213 2011-04-13 01:41:53 <noagendamarket> yes
214 2011-04-13 01:42:24 <midnightmagic> it's pretty fragile. mtgox pricing isn't high enough to grow it fast enough. prices won't increase until more people use it. people won't use it until we convince them to. work harder at convincing people to use bitcoins in legal, reputable endeavours. try to convince people not to use it for shady idiotic gambling/money laundering schemes by scaring them about the damage it does to the currency as a whole.
215 2011-04-13 01:42:24 <noagendamarket> the irc just lets it find nodes quicker
216 2011-04-13 01:42:33 <midnightmagic> sacarlson: sure.
217 2011-04-13 01:43:05 <jgarzik> sacarlson: no, that's not a weakness
218 2011-04-13 01:43:15 <jgarzik> sacarlson: bitcoin has plenty of weaknesses, but IRC is not one of them
219 2011-04-13 01:43:29 <Kiba> I thought one gal was scared by heroin dealing
220 2011-04-13 01:43:35 <Kiba> turns out she thought it was very novel
221 2011-04-13 01:43:42 <Kiba> and I misintrepret what she said in the tweet
222 2011-04-13 01:43:50 <midnightmagic> or, better, create a better market than mtgox..
223 2011-04-13 01:44:11 <nanotube> noagendamarket: haha fwiw, i find the client actually gets connections faster when i run it with -noirc
224 2011-04-13 01:44:16 <midnightmagic> i mean right now, the graphing and markets in EVE:Online are better, and that's just some lame game.
225 2011-04-13 01:44:27 <nanotube> so s/find nodes quicker/find more nodes/ maybe :)
226 2011-04-13 01:45:22 <Kiba> midnightmagic: well...at least we're growing
227 2011-04-13 01:45:25 <midnightmagic> not that i have a problem with mtgox, of course.. :)
228 2011-04-13 01:45:38 <Kiba> keep the momentum growing and we will get where we want to go
229 2011-04-13 01:45:40 <midnightmagic> just that i think it could be done better.
230 2011-04-13 01:45:54 <nanotube> midnightmagic: there's bitcoincharts.com too. and of course you should feel free to create your own :)
231 2011-04-13 01:45:55 <Kiba> how?
232 2011-04-13 01:46:24 <Kiba> someone should start a EVE Online currency exchange for bitcoin :)
233 2011-04-13 01:46:41 <midnightmagic> Kiba: against CCP's tos
234 2011-04-13 01:46:44 <nanotube> and add other game currencies too. L$, WoW, etc.
235 2011-04-13 01:46:57 <nanotube> midnightmagic: hasn't stopped wow gold trading. :)
236 2011-04-13 01:47:29 <Kiba> they could ban accounts all they want...
237 2011-04-13 01:47:47 <midnightmagic> nanotube: CCP is actively disincentivizing it with mechanisms that have stripped most of the value away from the gold farmers' old heydays.
238 2011-04-13 01:48:07 <nanotube> midnightmagic: mmm, it's almost like they /want/ to kill their game
239 2011-04-13 01:48:10 <nanotube> heh
240 2011-04-13 01:48:36 <Kiba> all the MMOs have inflationary policies..
241 2011-04-13 01:48:43 <midnightmagic> nanotube: no, they just know that time-in-game is worth more to the game's inherent value than money-to-3rd-parties. :)
242 2011-04-13 01:49:08 <Kiba> what would it take for bitcoin to be the unofficial currency of MMOs?
243 2011-04-13 01:49:09 <midnightmagic> Kiba: as far as I know, CCP is the only one with an actual, full-time economist who can effect change.
244 2011-04-13 01:49:32 <midnightmagic> Kiba: government tax evasion?
245 2011-04-13 01:49:37 <midnightmagic> oh. :)
246 2011-04-13 01:50:07 <Kiba> it would be lulz if everyone use bitcoin rather than the game's currency
247 2011-04-13 01:50:59 <midnightmagic> nanotube: it's a fun game, and it's incredible to see them paying attention to their economist.. very awesome stuff. and they stripped isk of their 3rd-party worth by making it incredibly risky to buy isk from a farmer (they nab people months after the fact just for owning it) and by selling plex themselves for a reasonable price.
248 2011-04-13 01:51:46 <nanotube> aha! now the motive comes out. *selling plex themselves*
249 2011-04-13 01:51:47 <nanotube> :)
250 2011-04-13 01:51:49 <Kiba> so, do people still use ISK?
251 2011-04-13 01:51:49 <midnightmagic> they refuse to outright kill accounts for it, and are preferring to use economic and technical means to put gold farmers out of business.
252 2011-04-13 01:52:04 <jgarzik> I think bitcoin's value will be too variable for mainstream MMOs to want to use it
253 2011-04-13 01:52:14 <midnightmagic> nanotube: well it's pretty irritating to find someone else monetizing the game you slaved over for a decade. :)
254 2011-04-13 01:52:41 <nanotube> midnightmagic: well presumably, the gold farmers pay for game access?
255 2011-04-13 01:52:42 <midnightmagic> i'd be irritated.
256 2011-04-13 01:52:55 <witten> MMOs have no incentive to use a distributed currency like bitcoin when they can use their own fiat currency that they can mint at will
257 2011-04-13 01:53:51 <Blitzboom> they do, if the creator is a bitcoin fan
258 2011-04-13 01:53:52 <midnightmagic> nanotube: yeah, but as they've shown, in a game where the prices are set by the players themselves, gold farming puts isk into a massive inflationary bubble that kills off large numbers of new subscribers.
259 2011-04-13 01:55:20 <midnightmagic> isk stability is dependent on a functioning market. by selling isk for less than a real player could make it for (say missioning) then nobody missions, nobody mines, isk is worthless, and people quit who can't afford to buy, but can afford to spend time.
260 2011-04-13 01:55:50 <nanotube> midnightmagic: well, they just need to make it hard enough to make that it's not economical for gold farmers to sell it for cheap.
261 2011-04-13 01:56:30 <midnightmagic> nanotube: or just plain uneconomical. and that's what they're doing.
262 2011-04-13 01:56:35 <Kiba> instead letting the free market works to select a currency
263 2011-04-13 01:56:53 <nanotube> midnightmagic: anyway, i'm sure it's an interesting system :)
264 2011-04-13 01:57:12 <midnightmagic> "Withdraw via Liberty Reserve is currently offline. Please try again tomorrow. Sorry for the inconvenience."  <-- this happens too often at MtGox.
265 2011-04-13 01:57:27 <Kiba> Liberty Reserve sucks?
266 2011-04-13 01:57:28 <midnightmagic> nanotube: they have very pretty graphs. :)
267 2011-04-13 01:58:02 <nanotube> midnightmagic: heh maybe you should consider cloning them for bitcoin :)
268 2011-04-13 01:58:15 <Kiba> a massive game like EVE:Online?
269 2011-04-13 01:58:18 <Kiba> that's crazy
270 2011-04-13 01:58:21 <jgarzik> Kiba: charge people 1 BTC to mess with another person's Tetris game.  Say 1 BTC for jgarzik to rotate a block on Kiba's game.  2 BTC to deduct points from Kiba's game.  3 BTC for Kiba to retaliate against jgarzik, and deduct points from his Tetris high score.
271 2011-04-13 01:58:26 <jgarzik> call it Tetris Wars
272 2011-04-13 01:58:28 <midnightmagic> Kiba: that's MtGox. LR is working just fine.
273 2011-04-13 01:58:53 <midnightmagic> nanotube: I often think about exactly that. :)
274 2011-04-13 01:59:23 <Kiba> well, it would be great if somebody pledge some bitcoin for my game
275 2011-04-13 01:59:46 <midnightmagic> so many examples of good, high-quality, information-rich interfaces.. and then I realise I've spent the last two weeks tweaking a stupid PID controller so it does everything I want it to do and laugh and stop thinking I can spend that much time competing with MtGox. :)
276 2011-04-13 02:00:11 <nanotube> jgarzik: haha nice idea
277 2011-04-13 02:00:33 <nanotube> midnightmagic: guess most of the deposits coming in are now bank wire/ach/sepa, not lr.
278 2011-04-13 02:00:51 <nanotube> midnightmagic: haha
279 2011-04-13 02:01:09 <Kiba> jgarzik: I was thinking of mining system
280 2011-04-13 02:01:12 <Kiba> err
281 2011-04-13 02:01:15 <Kiba> items system
282 2011-04-13 02:01:21 <witten> midnightmagic: that thought has occurred to multiple people :)
283 2011-04-13 02:01:26 <midnightmagic> nanotube: withdrawal is still primarily LR isn't it?
284 2011-04-13 02:01:32 <Kiba> you mine tehm during your tetris session
285 2011-04-13 02:01:38 <midnightmagic> i see he does euro bank wires too..
286 2011-04-13 02:02:06 <Kiba> but sometime you get items you don't like
287 2011-04-13 02:02:13 <Kiba> so you trade these items with other tetris players
288 2011-04-13 02:02:15 <midnightmagic> witten: :)
289 2011-04-13 02:02:21 <nanotube> yep, he does wd via other methods too, now. though i guess clearly, if it often happens that he's out of LR, more LR is going out than coming in.
290 2011-04-13 02:03:32 <nanotube> MagicalTux: o/
291 2011-04-13 02:03:41 <Kiba> we need moar method for transfer!
292 2011-04-13 02:03:50 <nanotube> once you get the bank stuff working, you could always just dump lr.
293 2011-04-13 02:03:52 <Kiba> maybe you could sell mtgox gift cards
294 2011-04-13 02:04:14 <midnightmagic> nanotube++
295 2011-04-13 02:04:30 <Kiba> will mtgox add other currencies?
296 2011-04-13 02:04:35 <MagicalTux> Kiba, I have plans to allow mtgox users to transform parts of their balance into special codes which could be then exchanged (could even be redeemed via api for merchants)
297 2011-04-13 02:04:36 <Kiba> it seem like you're only dealing with USD
298 2011-04-13 02:04:43 <MagicalTux> Kiba, yes, it's planned too, alongside margin trading
299 2011-04-13 02:05:03 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: cool.  Jed talked about that a long time ago.
300 2011-04-13 02:05:18 <jgarzik> (margin trading)
301 2011-04-13 02:05:22 <MagicalTux> I'm working on the new mtgox version almost fulltime now (should have done that earlier but got caught up between a earthquake, a tsunami and a nuclear power plant)
302 2011-04-13 02:05:32 <midnightmagic> ah crap, you're in Japan?
303 2011-04-13 02:05:35 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: that's no excuse, slacker!
304 2011-04-13 02:05:46 <MagicalTux> midnightmagic, yes, I am
305 2011-04-13 02:05:53 <Kiba> jgarzik: when will pastecoin come back online?
306 2011-04-13 02:05:55 <midnightmagic> my brother's in Tokyo, he's irritated the event was upgraded to level 7..
307 2011-04-13 02:06:01 <jgarzik> Kiba: "soon"
308 2011-04-13 02:06:06 <Kiba> soon?
309 2011-04-13 02:06:18 <jgarzik> he's irradiated?
310 2011-04-13 02:06:29 <MagicalTux> midnightmagic, I don't really care about the number they put on the event, what's important is what really happens
311 2011-04-13 02:06:41 <tcatm> I need someone to test a feature (or rather comment on it): http://bitcoincharts.com:800/markets/ "Currencies (Weighted Prices)"
312 2011-04-13 02:06:54 <Kiba> preventing a full blown nuclear power plant metldown is a marathon
313 2011-04-13 02:07:08 <Kiba> hmm
314 2011-04-13 02:07:13 <Kiba> there will be movie in the future
315 2011-04-13 02:07:44 <MagicalTux> lots of movies
316 2011-04-13 02:07:58 <midnightmagic> MagicalTux: neither does my brother, who doesn't seem to have any issues continuing his iaido instruction in Shinjuku
317 2011-04-13 02:07:59 <Kiba> about the nuclear incident in Japan
318 2011-04-13 02:08:22 <nanotube> tcatm: how to test? i see weighted prices... they look halfway reasonable...
319 2011-04-13 02:08:49 <Kiba> MagicalTux: do ya offer an API for ordering domain name and changing DNS information?
320 2011-04-13 02:08:58 <MagicalTux> midnightmagic, lots of foreigners left their work without leaving an address, and many of my customers required extra care to be able to fill the holes
321 2011-04-13 02:09:01 <MagicalTux> Kiba, soap api
322 2011-04-13 02:09:08 <Kiba> kool
323 2011-04-13 02:09:11 <MagicalTux> Kiba, https://ws.uid.st/Domains.html
324 2011-04-13 02:09:14 <Kiba> will learn to take advantage of it
325 2011-04-13 02:09:15 <tcatm> nanotube: would they be useful e.g. for websites (as they might return None)?
326 2011-04-13 02:09:17 <MagicalTux> (wsdl at https://ws.uid.st/Domains.wsdl)
327 2011-04-13 02:09:31 <MagicalTux> Kiba, you can privmsg me for access details
328 2011-04-13 02:09:38 <LightRider> Is there a way to maintain two different bitcoin wallets on one machine?
329 2011-04-13 02:10:13 <midnightmagic> MagicalTux: it's incredible the fear involved.. the tsunami wave was heading here (BC, Canada) and you should've seen the people racing up and down the highway..
330 2011-04-13 02:10:14 <LightRider> For example, if I wanted to maintain my personal wallet for everyday affairs, but also have access to an organization's account when necessary?
331 2011-04-13 02:10:28 <witten> LightRider: you could use -datadir
332 2011-04-13 02:10:39 <witten> LightRider: but that's for the whole data directory and not just the wallet
333 2011-04-13 02:10:42 <midnightmagic> LightRider: you would have to start/restart bitcoind to switch wallets, as witten implies.
334 2011-04-13 02:11:06 <LightRider> Could I have two instances, each using their own directory?
335 2011-04-13 02:11:46 <LightRider> simultaneously I mean
336 2011-04-13 02:11:53 <midnightmagic> LightRider: I think there's something with the port you'd need to tweak.
337 2011-04-13 02:12:07 <midnightmagic> LightRider: if you have two machines, then yes, definitely. I do that.
338 2011-04-13 02:12:09 <LightRider> ah yes, of course
339 2011-04-13 02:12:27 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: That is interesting...  I was thinking about going through OpenSRS.  Does your domain API permit purchases via bitcoins?
340 2011-04-13 02:12:38 <MagicalTux> jgarzik, actually, it does
341 2011-04-13 02:12:42 <LightRider> I want to start accepting bitcoin donations for my organization, but I am wary of the accounting
342 2011-04-13 02:13:09 <MagicalTux> bitcoin pricings might not be stable, however~
343 2011-04-13 02:13:10 <Kiba> your...Venus organization where all you do is make video about tech instead of doing it, LightRider?
344 2011-04-13 02:13:12 <nanotube> tcatm: possibly maybe? guess if some site wants more stability in the indexed bitcoin prices.
345 2011-04-13 02:13:20 <MagicalTux> (ie. depends on current rates)
346 2011-04-13 02:13:20 <witten> LightRider: Quickbook doesn't suport bitcoins? :)
347 2011-04-13 02:13:29 <nanotube> they could use the weighted avg prices over the past $period
348 2011-04-13 02:13:39 <sacarlson> tcatm: looks good to me I bookmarked it
349 2011-04-13 02:13:50 <LightRider> more specifically, I don't want donations to the organization spill over into my personal account
350 2011-04-13 02:14:25 <midnightmagic> LightRider: bitcoind listaccounts  <-- will let you handle multiple named accounts. it's not hard to keep things separate.
351 2011-04-13 02:14:35 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: how are purchases accomplished?  through domainCreate ?
352 2011-04-13 02:14:37 <midnightmagic> bitcoind getnewaddress [accountname]  and so on.
353 2011-04-13 02:14:45 <MagicalTux> jgarzik, yep
354 2011-04-13 02:14:59 <tcatm> sacarlson: don't! it's my internal testing server and will serve old data most of the time
355 2011-04-13 02:15:00 <LightRider> Interesting, thanks midnightmagic!
356 2011-04-13 02:15:08 <midnightmagic> welcome
357 2011-04-13 02:15:16 <tcatm> sacarlson: bookmark http://bitcoincharts.com instead
358 2011-04-13 02:15:20 <sacarlson> tcatm: ok understood
359 2011-04-13 02:15:21 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: how does billing work?  do you charge bitcoins from user's mtgox account?
360 2011-04-13 02:15:22 <MagicalTux> tcatm, change the port :D
361 2011-04-13 02:15:31 <noagendamarket> Kiba you could sell ads on the tetris blocks :)
362 2011-04-13 02:15:38 <MagicalTux> jgarzik, I will be able to, later in time (for now you need to preload a specific wallet)
363 2011-04-13 02:15:47 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: ok
364 2011-04-13 02:15:52 <tcatm> MagicalTux: it's already a different port
365 2011-04-13 02:16:42 <Kiba> noagendamarket: intruging idea but I don't think it will be large enough
366 2011-04-13 02:17:19 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: https://ws.uid.st/SMS.html works the same way?  preload a wallet?
367 2011-04-13 02:17:37 <noagendamarket> Kiba text ads :)
368 2011-04-13 02:17:44 <MagicalTux> jgarzik, yep
369 2011-04-13 02:17:49 <MagicalTux> (same wallet)
370 2011-04-13 02:18:23 <Kiba> the blocks are 20 by 20 pixels, noagendamarket
371 2011-04-13 02:18:34 <Kiba> I think micropayment will works better though
372 2011-04-13 02:18:45 <midnightmagic> Anyway, MagicalTux, please ignore my belly-aching re: LR withdrawal. It's just me being impatient.
373 2011-04-13 02:19:22 <Kiba> if nothing else, I plan to monentize jstet with operation fabulous ads
374 2011-04-13 02:19:30 <Kiba> and earn a steady 0.01 BTC a day with that
375 2011-04-13 02:19:45 <noagendamarket> make the blocks clickable links
376 2011-04-13 02:19:52 <noagendamarket> to websites
377 2011-04-13 02:19:54 <noagendamarket> lol
378 2011-04-13 02:20:07 <noagendamarket> a tetrectory
379 2011-04-13 02:21:46 <noagendamarket> the block would have a keyword
380 2011-04-13 02:21:56 <noagendamarket> people buy the keyword
381 2011-04-13 02:22:15 <tcatm> should I use weighted prices for Market Cap on bitcoinwatch?
382 2011-04-13 02:22:39 <noagendamarket> kinda like selling pixels but not
383 2011-04-13 02:23:13 <nanotube> tcatm: mmm up to you. i think 'traditionally' market cap is just based on 'last trade'
384 2011-04-13 02:23:32 <nanotube> (or closing price for previous day, etc, depending on frequency of update)
385 2011-04-13 02:23:56 <jgarzik> nanotube: yep
386 2011-04-13 02:24:14 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,stats
387 2011-04-13 02:24:16 <gribble> Current Blocks: 118101 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 842 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 3 hours, 57 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 91454.83071419
388 2011-04-13 02:24:18 <jgarzik> market cap is a dumb, simple calculation: last trade * total shares
389 2011-04-13 02:24:30 <EPiSKiNG> EWWWW @ the next difficulty
390 2011-04-13 02:24:43 <Blitzboom> eww, still way too low :P
391 2011-04-13 02:24:44 <LightRider> How do you create a new account?
392 2011-04-13 02:24:58 <EPiSKiNG> LightRider: carefully
393 2011-04-13 02:26:19 <lfm> LightRider: you mean bitcoin?
394 2011-04-13 02:26:22 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,calc 2280000
395 2011-04-13 02:26:24 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2280000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 1 day, 19 hours, 5 minutes, and 22 seconds
396 2011-04-13 02:26:26 <LightRider> yes, nevermind, I figured it out
397 2011-04-13 02:26:27 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,calcd 2280000 91454.83071419
398 2011-04-13 02:26:30 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2280000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 91454.83071419, is 1 day, 23 hours, 51 minutes, and 18 seconds
399 2011-04-13 02:26:38 <EPiSKiNG> ohh, not bad at all
400 2011-04-13 02:27:01 <EPiSKiNG> 6 hr difference
401 2011-04-13 02:27:51 <jgarzik> tcatm: I think you should spell out "Gigahash" and "TeraFLOP" ... because it looks more awesome
402 2011-04-13 02:28:02 <jgarzik> :)
403 2011-04-13 02:28:17 <EPiSKiNG> yeah, plus they're reeeeeaalllly large numbers, soooo why shouldn't the name be long?
404 2011-04-13 02:28:49 <LightRider> Alright, it appears that these multiple accounts are really just addresses in the same wallet. I was looking for a more distinct seperation.
405 2011-04-13 02:29:58 <sacarlson> LightRider: you want to point to a different wallet?  I think you can set the bitcoind to use a different config file dir
406 2011-04-13 02:30:09 <witten> yup, with -datadir
407 2011-04-13 02:30:40 <witten> there's also this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/68
408 2011-04-13 02:31:37 <tcatm> jgarzik: [master 8d60b88] make bcw look more awesome 1 files changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-) :)
409 2011-04-13 02:31:58 <jgarzik> har
410 2011-04-13 02:34:16 <jgarzik> IMO the market cap list will eventually need trimming, or at least stop growing.  Much love to my ancestral homeland of Poland, but I'm not sure PLN is hugely important in the world...
411 2011-04-13 02:36:04 <jgarzik> tcatm: do you have weekly or monthly charts of number-of-transactions or number-of-bitcoins-sent ?
412 2011-04-13 02:36:53 <tcatm> nope
413 2011-04-13 02:37:11 <tcatm> but I have ntx and send_btc fields for each block
414 2011-04-13 02:38:03 <jgarzik> tcatm: 100 BTC of motivation and thanks sent your way
415 2011-04-13 02:40:35 <tcatm> hm. I'll add it to bcharts somewhere to the bitcoin page
416 2011-04-13 02:46:18 <Kiba> new article! http://bitcoinweekly.com/articles/legal-tender-illegal-tender-will-bitcoin-be-banned
417 2011-04-13 02:50:25 <nanotube> Kiba: nice article. you wrote it yourself?
418 2011-04-13 02:51:12 <Kiba> no
419 2011-04-13 02:51:32 <Kiba> I got a writer sending me articles in exchange for bitcoin
420 2011-04-13 02:51:38 <Kiba> the only question: will I make my money back?
421 2011-04-13 02:51:49 <Kiba> bitcoinweekly is currently a losing proposition and I can't afford much articles
422 2011-04-13 02:52:40 <Kiba> well
423 2011-04-13 02:52:49 <Kiba> somebody send me 10 BTC 4 days ago
424 2011-04-13 02:52:50 <Kiba> that's good
425 2011-04-13 02:54:06 <Kiba> that's good for two articles
426 2011-04-13 03:01:37 <genjix> 05:58 <@ljrbot> TX 801a9a2728b48d58a8ad0e53b0f2b3db68f422443a10d403c26695116183d11a: 195oNwn7ubregwNJgsggkdD9a622MD6JZ5 0.40 BTC
427 2011-04-13 03:01:47 <genjix> i thought transactions always had 2 outputs?
428 2011-04-13 03:02:06 <genjix> even if the second output was 0
429 2011-04-13 03:02:34 <genjix> i guess not
430 2011-04-13 03:02:46 <genjix> http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000000a762cb1a7bef575739a653cbb0cefe4e94627c59408af1f33b92
431 2011-04-13 03:02:53 <genjix> ;;bc,difficulty
432 2011-04-13 03:02:54 <gribble> Error: "bc,difficulty" is not a valid command.
433 2011-04-13 03:02:58 <genjix> ;;bc,help
434 2011-04-13 03:02:59 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,labs, Alias bc,lbs, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,prob, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, and Alias bc,wiki
435 2011-04-13 03:03:02 <genjix> ;;bc,diff
436 2011-04-13 03:03:03 <gribble> 82347.22294654
437 2011-04-13 03:14:55 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: can said wallet be loaded programmatically?
438 2011-04-13 03:15:26 <MagicalTux> jgarzik, I could add this easily (ie add a /Wallet webservice with methods to get the bitcoin charge address on top of balance/etc)
439 2011-04-13 03:16:39 <nanotube> genjix: nope, tx can have 1 output, if there's no change.
440 2011-04-13 03:16:50 <nanotube> and they can have more than 2 outputs as well.
441 2011-04-13 03:19:08 <sacarlson> Is there a way to send a signed document that proves you are now holding a certain number of bitcoin?  If not what could posibly be created that could?
442 2011-04-13 03:19:53 <nanotube> sacarlson: well, you could extract the private key associated with the address holding the coins, and use it to create arbitrary signed messages.
443 2011-04-13 03:20:02 <nanotube> it's not built into the default client though.
444 2011-04-13 03:20:10 <nanotube> but iirc there was some code posted on the forums to extract keys, etc.
445 2011-04-13 03:21:49 <MagicalTux> [14:19:08] <sacarlson> Is there a way to send a signed document that proves you are now holding a certain number of bitcoin?  If not what could posibly be created that could? <- you can sign with your public key holding the funds such a document
446 2011-04-13 03:21:59 <MagicalTux> well, currently no client allow you to, but it wouldn't be too hard
447 2011-04-13 03:22:18 <nanotube> MagicalTux: well, you'd be signing with the private key
448 2011-04-13 03:22:25 <nanotube> the public key would be used to verify :)
449 2011-04-13 03:22:50 <sacarlson> nanotube: would that not also give them access to the key so they could us it?
450 2011-04-13 03:23:03 <nanotube> sacarlson: nope
451 2011-04-13 03:23:08 <nanotube> the magic of public key crypto :)
452 2011-04-13 03:23:19 <sacarlson> nanotube: cool
453 2011-04-13 03:23:21 <nanotube> you keep private key private, and only hand out public key
454 2011-04-13 03:23:25 <genjix> ;;bc,diff
455 2011-04-13 03:23:25 <gribble> 82347.22294654
456 2011-04-13 03:23:44 <genjix> how does that number relate to the leading 0's of the block header hash?
457 2011-04-13 03:23:54 <nanotube> hehe mtgox price is .000001 below .9 usd heh
458 2011-04-13 03:24:01 <genjix> it's INT64 right
459 2011-04-13 03:24:11 <nanotube> genjix: it's a ratio of current target, to the maximum target.
460 2011-04-13 03:24:18 <sacarlson> nanotube: ok I already have the public private thing created for the #bitcoin-otc site  can you give me an example of how that could be done?
461 2011-04-13 03:24:19 <gribble> 000000000000CBBD000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
462 2011-04-13 03:24:19 <nanotube> current target is ,,bc,hextarget
463 2011-04-13 03:24:33 <nanotube> max target is... about 82347.22294654 times larger :)
464 2011-04-13 03:24:39 <genjix> ahh ok
465 2011-04-13 03:25:02 <nanotube> sacarlson: well, pgp keys are different than the ecdsa keys used in bitcoin - though 'in broad scheme of things' they act similar
466 2011-04-13 03:25:26 <nanotube> sacarlson: with gpg - you can sign a document - and others can verify that you signed it using your public key. exactly what gets done when you use gpg auth to authenticate with the bot.
467 2011-04-13 03:25:40 <nevezen> /clear/
468 2011-04-13 03:26:57 <sacarlson> nanotube: ok then with this ecdsa keys method what steps would be required to send to a party ?
469 2011-04-13 03:27:53 <sacarlson> nanotube: are the tools already available to do such a thing?
470 2011-04-13 03:27:55 <nanotube> sacarlson: well, you'd need to extract the key, then use openssl libs to create a signature, and send it along with the public key to your receiver.
471 2011-04-13 03:28:11 <nanotube> sacarlson: not sure, ask... genjix or grondilu (don't recall which one of them was working on something similar)
472 2011-04-13 03:28:36 <sacarlson> nanotube: ok thanks
473 2011-04-13 03:28:50 <an20> for poclbm.py, what should your askrate be if you are solo mining?
474 2011-04-13 03:29:47 <sacarlson> nanotube: I've used openssl but I don't recall having to extract keys but I will look into that
475 2011-04-13 03:30:35 <nanotube> sacarlson: yea i dunno exactly either. i just know that the ecdsa key type (used for bitcoin addrs) is not pgp compatible
476 2011-04-13 03:30:50 <nanotube> so you have to use the openssl libs to play with those
477 2011-04-13 03:31:07 <sacarlson> nanotube: ok
478 2011-04-13 03:35:15 <genjix> sacarlson: https://github.com/grondilu/bitcoin-bash-tools
479 2011-04-13 03:36:21 <witten> does bitcoin have a new miniupnp dependency?
480 2011-04-13 03:36:37 <sacarlson> genjix : thanks I'll take a look after I eat my breakfast
481 2011-04-13 03:36:44 <genjix> ECDSA is for signing transactions
482 2011-04-13 03:37:15 <luke-jr> otg|witten, soft-dep if they used my code
483 2011-04-13 03:37:28 <witten> looks like hard dep :)
484 2011-04-13 03:37:47 <genjix> an address is a hash of an EDCSA public key
485 2011-04-13 03:37:52 <witten> net.cpp:8:32: error: miniupnpc/miniwget.h: No such file or directory
486 2011-04-13 03:38:08 <witten> oh looks like I need to re-run configure maybe
487 2011-04-13 03:38:28 <luke-jr> otg|:)
488 2011-04-13 03:38:43 <luke-jr> otg|what branch are you using?
489 2011-04-13 03:38:57 <luke-jr> otg|mainline has no configure yet
490 2011-04-13 03:39:00 <witten> uh.. the main one?
491 2011-04-13 03:39:06 <luke-jr> otg|unless it was merged
492 2011-04-13 03:39:10 <witten> nope, no configure
493 2011-04-13 03:39:46 <witten> not sure why it thinks USE_UPNP is true
494 2011-04-13 03:40:04 <luke-jr> otg|witten, make USE_UPNP=
495 2011-04-13 03:40:55 <witten> thanks.. is that a bug?
496 2011-04-13 03:41:51 <luke-jr> otg|no
497 2011-04-13 03:44:52 <witten> I mean, should the makefiles be changed to do USE_UPNP:= instead of USE_UPNP:=0 in mainline?
498 2011-04-13 03:45:00 <witten> because :=0 doesn't build
499 2011-04-13 03:45:32 <luke-jr> otg|it does w miniupnp
500 2011-04-13 03:45:51 <witten> right, but it's broken if you don't have miniupnp
501 2011-04-13 03:46:04 <luke-jr> otg|0 means off by default at runtime, but still compiled
502 2011-04-13 03:46:18 <luke-jr> otg|null means no support at all
503 2011-04-13 03:46:49 <witten> oh ok
504 2011-04-13 03:47:53 <genjix> how does moving work?
505 2011-04-13 03:48:02 <genjix> is it signing the coin
506 2011-04-13 03:48:06 <luke-jr> otg|genjix, no
507 2011-04-13 03:48:15 <luke-jr> otg|moving doesn't touch coins
508 2011-04-13 03:48:26 <luke-jr> otg|it is purely accounting
509 2011-04-13 03:48:47 <luke-jr> otg|you can even make one account balance negative
510 2011-04-13 03:49:56 <genjix> but the coins are associated with your bitcoin addresses
511 2011-04-13 03:50:02 <luke-jr> otg|nope
512 2011-04-13 03:50:30 <genjix> but you sign money to people by adding their public key to a transaction.
513 2011-04-13 03:50:48 <genjix> and since your address comes from the hash of your public key
514 2011-04-13 03:51:18 <luke-jr> otg|sending money from accountA can use coins sent to accountB
515 2011-04-13 03:51:42 <genjix> how does that work?
516 2011-04-13 03:51:50 <luke-jr> otg|the address->account mapping is oneway
517 2011-04-13 03:52:24 <luke-jr> otg|the first time bitcoind sees a tx, it adds it to an acct balance
518 2011-04-13 03:52:33 <FellowTraveler> hi all
519 2011-04-13 03:52:41 <luke-jr> otg|that's the extent of the acct-addr associations
520 2011-04-13 03:53:09 <genjix> wait
521 2011-04-13 03:53:37 <genjix> so I give my bitcoin address (ECDSA hash of public key) to my friend
522 2011-04-13 03:54:35 <genjix> my friend then creates a transaction saying OP_CHECKSIG <bitcoin address>
523 2011-04-13 03:54:41 <luke-jr> otg|bitcoind remembers 'Joe gave me $5', but not which $5 bill it was
524 2011-04-13 03:56:11 <genjix> luke-jr|otg: but how does that look in code?
525 2011-04-13 03:56:36 <luke-jr> otg|nfc
526 2011-04-13 03:56:45 <genjix> if an address is an ECDSA hash of the public key, then how can OP_CHECKSIG work?
527 2011-04-13 03:57:27 <luke-jr> otg|...
528 2011-04-13 03:58:56 <nanotube> genjix: a tx includes the public key of the signing ecdsa privkey
529 2011-04-13 03:59:36 <genjix> right, so the from address of that tx is computed by computing the address from the signing pubkey
530 2011-04-13 04:00:19 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
531 2011-04-13 04:00:23 <gribble> Current Blocks: 118118 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 825 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 22 hours, 56 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 91936.41921397
532 2011-04-13 04:02:16 <nanotube> genjix: right, that's part of the verification.
533 2011-04-13 04:02:29 <genjix> cool
534 2011-04-13 04:06:25 <genjix> does OP_CODESEPARATOR come after scriptSig?
535 2011-04-13 04:11:10 <genjix> how does this script work?
536 2011-04-13 04:11:22 <genjix> OP_OVER OP_ADD OP_HASH160 <hash160> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG
537 2011-04-13 04:12:42 <genjix> scriptSig: <scriptsig> <public_key> <randomNumber>
538 2011-04-13 04:12:46 <genjix> copies the 2nd to top stack item to the top (public key)
539 2011-04-13 04:13:26 <genjix> OP_ADD: add the public key + hash160
540 2011-04-13 04:14:27 <genjix> sorry, hash the pubkey + randomNumber
541 2011-04-13 04:15:31 <genjix> ok nevermind, i understand now
542 2011-04-13 04:28:32 <JFK911> ;;bc,calc 400000
543 2011-04-13 04:28:33 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 1 week, 3 days, 5 hours, 36 minutes, and 36 seconds
544 2011-04-13 04:38:05 <jgarzik> "This means the maximum number of OUTBOUND connections (from you to someone else) is 8.  If you want your bitcoind to connect to more than 8 nodes in the network (which isn't that much), then change this number to something higher than 8.  I use 1000."
545 2011-04-13 04:38:07 <jgarzik> oh dog
546 2011-04-13 04:38:12 <jgarzik> oh god, even.
547 2011-04-13 04:38:26 <jgarzik> bitcoinpool uses 1,000 connections.  lovely.
548 2011-04-13 04:39:08 <maxlo1> i posted that patch for the systray icon  in the forum
549 2011-04-13 04:39:19 <justmoon> jgarzik: I think he's saying that's what he set as his limit
550 2011-04-13 04:39:36 <justmoon> my node also has 1000 as it's limit, but only 200 or so actual connections
551 2011-04-13 04:40:19 <jgarzik> justmoon: yes -- and this is _not_ recommended behavior for most clients.  the network can tolerate a few people hacking their clients, but we should not go around recommending this change for all.
552 2011-04-13 04:40:42 <genjix> why not?
553 2011-04-13 04:41:11 <justmoon> aren't highly connected nodes good for the network (assuming they're running on high-bandwidth, low latency machines with the latest bitcoin version)?
554 2011-04-13 04:41:34 <justmoon> obviously I agree you shouldn't recommend that setting to normal users
555 2011-04-13 04:41:40 <lfm> yes, you presumptions are the problem
556 2011-04-13 04:42:19 <justmoon> well, I haven't read the thread, so I'm probably missing the context of that statement
557 2011-04-13 04:42:46 <justmoon> oh wait, you're talking about OUTGOING connections
558 2011-04-13 04:43:00 <justmoon> I have 8 outgoing connections, the 200 is all incoming connections
559 2011-04-13 04:43:19 <lfm> people running ddos attacks on themselves? they ask for 500 connects and then wonder why their youtube is slow
560 2011-04-13 04:43:27 <justmoon> yeah I can see how too many people with too many outgoing conns would be bad :D
561 2011-04-13 04:44:00 <justmoon> sorry guys, I've just pulled an all-nighter - reading comprehension levels critically low
562 2011-04-13 04:44:28 <lfm> doesnt matter what direction really
563 2011-04-13 04:44:50 <justmoon> lfm: I think lots of outgoing are bad because clients will accept a limited number of incoming conns
564 2011-04-13 04:45:05 <justmoon> so you could theoretically block them all - that's an attack vector I believe
565 2011-04-13 04:45:16 <theorbtwo> Surely, your number of maximum total connections should be set such that you won't be flooded.
566 2011-04-13 04:46:16 <justmoon> theorbtwo: ah, you're right, that's a danger with accepting too many connections
567 2011-04-13 04:46:35 <ArtForz> hrrrm.... they're just asking to be used in a multiplier attack to DoS themselves
568 2011-04-13 04:47:02 <justmoon> ArtForz: if the official client can be used in a multiplier attack wouldn't we be screwed anyways?
569 2011-04-13 04:47:13 <ArtForz> well, officiel client with 1000 connections, yes
570 2011-04-13 04:47:34 <ArtForz> send one 4kB tx, node relays it to 1000 peers
571 2011-04-13 04:47:36 <ArtForz> "whoops"
572 2011-04-13 04:48:05 <justmoon> well, if it relays it that means it's valid right? so it would spread exponentially in a p2p network anyway
573 2011-04-13 04:48:21 <ArtForz> yes
574 2011-04-13 04:48:40 <ArtForz> but by a single node with shitloads of connections seeing that TX first will pretty much DoS itself
575 2011-04-13 04:48:45 <lfm> not exponentiallt.
576 2011-04-13 04:48:58 <justmoon> lfm: limited exponential growth, no?
577 2011-04-13 04:49:01 <genjix> is there a way to get POSIX time in script?
578 2011-04-13 04:49:23 <ArtForz> with 1k connections, send it 12kB/sec of tx and it fills a 100Mbit pipe...
579 2011-04-13 04:50:18 <lfm> only for 1 sec
580 2011-04-13 04:50:29 <ArtForz> so send one per second
581 2011-04-13 04:50:42 <lfm> youd have to be continuously creating new tx
582 2011-04-13 04:50:50 <ArtForz> 1 tx/sec is no problem
583 2011-04-13 04:51:32 <lfm> and they dont send to nodes that have em alreay I thot
584 2011-04-13 04:51:38 <ArtForz> yes
585 2011-04-13 04:51:48 <ArtForz> thats why you send that tx to *that one* node
586 2011-04-13 04:52:03 <ArtForz> no peers have it = it relays to everyone
587 2011-04-13 04:52:31 <lfm> ok i see, ya
588 2011-04-13 04:53:52 <ArtForz> oh, and iirc limitfreerelay only counts incoming tx
589 2011-04-13 04:54:35 <ArtForz> so even simple 0.01-chained spam would work
590 2011-04-13 04:55:57 <lfm> it doesnt matter if the connection was started as outgoing or incoming tho, it will send new tx out on all of them
591 2011-04-13 04:56:26 <ArtForz> yes
592 2011-04-13 04:56:41 <ArtForz> thats why running with crazy high maxconnections might not be a too good idea
593 2011-04-13 04:56:42 <justmoon> my takeaway from all this is that the overall connection limit should be chosen based on the bandwidth you have available
594 2011-04-13 04:56:56 <lfm> ya
595 2011-04-13 04:58:06 <lfm> justmoon and remember most bandwidth these days is much larger incoming than outgoing
596 2011-04-13 04:58:22 <justmoon> well, at home, yeah
597 2011-04-13 04:58:40 <justmoon> my node is running in magicaltux's datacenter
598 2011-04-13 04:59:08 <justmoon> or rather on a server I rented from him, he probably doesn't have a whole datacenter ;)
599 2011-04-13 05:09:51 <martok604> Hey, has anyone successfully built latest git against Debian testing? I am getting: /usr/include/boost/asio/ssl/detail/openssl_context_service.hpp:73:28: error: '::SSLv2_method' has not been declared
600 2011-04-13 05:11:51 <LightRider> Is there a commandline option to keep the client from generating new accounts whenever I send coins?
601 2011-04-13 05:14:49 <lfm> LightRider: why would you care?
602 2011-04-13 05:25:50 <gjs278> nobody can decide what method to use
603 2011-04-13 05:27:52 <purplezky> that's why you should recommend something like mybitcoin.com, because they don't backup their local wallet anyhow
604 2011-04-13 05:28:09 <cosurgi> hm, maybe that's a solution.
605 2011-04-13 05:29:16 <gjs278> yeah
606 2011-04-13 05:31:37 <gjs278> a better analogy would be walking down the street and asking them if they have a tv
607 2011-04-13 05:33:04 <gjs278> hardly anyone
608 2011-04-13 05:33:12 <cosurgi> go and buy a book with BTC, you have 100 000 titles to pick from.
609 2011-04-13 05:33:12 <gjs278> uses them
610 2011-04-13 05:34:09 <gjs278> they're not
611 2011-04-13 05:34:27 <purplezky> on a more serious note, has any of the bitcoin forks added support for bitcoinaddress "dns names"
612 2011-04-13 05:34:33 <gjs278> who here has had their wallet stolen by a virus
613 2011-04-13 05:35:30 <purplezky> whoa 1 BTC=1 bitcoin
614 2011-04-13 05:36:47 <lfm> and retards like me
615 2011-04-13 05:36:55 <gjs278> it jumped a lot in the last half hour
616 2011-04-13 05:37:00 <gjs278> price now is 96
617 2011-04-13 05:38:18 <cosurgi> I'm doing this. But they have windows. That stupid os.
618 2011-04-13 05:38:28 <lfm> <purplezky> whoa 1 BTC=1 bitcoin
619 2011-04-13 05:38:46 <gjs278> there are gpg guis for windows that let you do just simple password
620 2011-04-13 05:38:53 <cosurgi> I'm using encrypted loopback device. They can't
621 2011-04-13 05:39:23 <purplezky> gjs278: use truecrypt, create an encrypted partition, store your wallet in it
622 2011-04-13 05:40:02 <gjs278> cosurgi if there was a program that would just encrypt the wallet.dat with a password, would they use it
623 2011-04-13 05:40:39 <gjs278> it's just a dialog with a file select and a encrypt/decrypt option
624 2011-04-13 05:41:07 <gjs278> yep
625 2011-04-13 05:43:07 <purplezky> they don't do backups, so i don't see them doing encryption. All banks use encryption devices external to a banking application, maybe we need a service like the yubikey, where a usb device generates a OneTimePass to access a wallet
626 2011-04-13 05:45:35 <gjs278> lose*
627 2011-04-13 05:46:21 <sacarlson> gjs278: I agree you keep a backup of the key offline to create a new key if the usb key fails
628 2011-04-13 05:46:37 <purplezky> i was thinking more along the way of cloud based wallets with automated backup, encrypted with a two factor usb encryption devicce in possession of the wallet owner only
629 2011-04-13 05:49:01 <limpingBobby_> what is the purpose of pnseed?
630 2011-04-13 06:09:30 <maxlo> tcatm: i posted a patch for the systray. let me know :)
631 2011-04-13 06:11:48 <fimp> what's the best way to get updated on new media coverage of bitcoin?
632 2011-04-13 06:14:35 <sirius-m> http://twitter.com/search?q=bitcoin
633 2011-04-13 06:15:24 <sirius-m> if you're ok with all the other crap from the feed :)
634 2011-04-13 06:15:58 <fimp> thx, but yeah, not very filtered
635 2011-04-13 06:18:34 <topi`> damn, somebody has deleted the "cryptocurrency" article from wikipedia.
636 2011-04-13 06:18:43 <topi`> nazis.
637 2011-04-13 06:20:16 <limpingBobby_> anyone know the purpose of pnseed?
638 2011-04-13 06:23:46 <lfm> limpingBobby_: its only used if the irc fails and you dont specifiy -connect on the command line
639 2011-04-13 06:24:10 <lfm> just 32 bit numbers ya
640 2011-04-13 06:24:56 <limpingBobby_> ok
641 2011-04-13 06:27:14 <lfm> I hope there should be a lot of em yes
642 2011-04-13 06:48:54 <topi`> krytzz: was it you who had a OMAP4 board? I just noticed that according to my calculations, my dual core Cortex-A9 is more efficient than ANY nvidia GPU, and is comparable to many Radeons at 1.14 Mhash/s/watt
643 2011-04-13 06:49:33 <topi`> now I just need more arm cores! :D
644 2011-04-13 06:50:07 <Diablo-D3> erm
645 2011-04-13 06:50:16 <Diablo-D3> except radeon 5xxx are around 2 mhash/s/watt
646 2011-04-13 06:50:26 <Diablo-D3> and art's magic chips are bove 4
647 2011-04-13 06:50:27 <Diablo-D3> *above
648 2011-04-13 06:50:27 <krytzz> topi`: yes
649 2011-04-13 06:50:45 <topi`> indeed, but ARM core is publically licenseable, so it is "better" technology than Radeon cores ;)
650 2011-04-13 06:51:12 <topi`> so I can build (if I am good enough) a chip with 64 ARM cores, and pay licenses to ARM inc :)
651 2011-04-13 06:51:30 <lfm> topi not the sort of "better" you can bank on tho
652 2011-04-13 06:51:40 <Diablo-D3> 64 arm cores?
653 2011-04-13 06:51:42 <Diablo-D3> problem is
654 2011-04-13 06:51:43 <topi`> lfm: "better" is fairly subjective a word :)
655 2011-04-13 06:51:46 <Diablo-D3> its still a fraction of the speed of a 5970
656 2011-04-13 06:51:59 <Diablo-D3> at a much larger fab size since you cant afford 45nm manuf
657 2011-04-13 06:52:00 <Diablo-D3> NOW
658 2011-04-13 06:52:01 <topi`> Diablo-D3: might be, but won't consume as much power :)
659 2011-04-13 06:52:04 <Diablo-D3> if I was building a video card
660 2011-04-13 06:52:14 <Diablo-D3> having a chip with like 256 arm cores on it
661 2011-04-13 06:52:15 <Diablo-D3> would be lol
662 2011-04-13 06:52:24 <topi`> I don't want a video card, I want a SMP system.
663 2011-04-13 06:52:26 <krytzz> topi`: including NEON or not?
664 2011-04-13 06:52:27 <Diablo-D3> since, essentially, it'd be forever compatible with all future specs
665 2011-04-13 06:52:31 <Diablo-D3> since it'd all be driver driven
666 2011-04-13 06:52:32 <topi`> ARM is a non-specialized CPU core.
667 2011-04-13 06:52:40 <topi`> so you build servers, desktops etc with it.
668 2011-04-13 06:52:44 <Diablo-D3> topi`: not true.
669 2011-04-13 06:52:57 <Diablo-D3> the specialization is just more subtle.
670 2011-04-13 06:53:01 <topi`> krytzz: I am betting to get 4x the speed of the 'C' algo with a properly optimized NEON code.
671 2011-04-13 06:53:37 <topi`> Diablo-D3: it seems you are a big fan of GPGPU.
672 2011-04-13 06:53:58 <topi`> they do have the massive memory bandwidth that is required for massive ops, but fall short on I/O
673 2011-04-13 06:54:11 <Diablo-D3> seeing as I wrote a gpu miner?
674 2011-04-13 06:54:13 <Diablo-D3> sure
675 2011-04-13 06:54:41 <topi`> I had exactly this same discussion with my friend 15 years back, at that time I was pointing out that the TMOS Transputer would be a good option for a sidekick card on an Amiga computer.
676 2011-04-13 06:54:45 <topi`> he laughed at me :)
677 2011-04-13 06:55:03 <lfm> topi they do tend to have some massive i/o in the form of video output
678 2011-04-13 06:55:18 <topi`> lfm: the bottleneck is the interaction between the host system and the GPU
679 2011-04-13 06:55:57 <lfm> pcie is not much of a bottleneck at 16x it seems
680 2011-04-13 06:56:48 <krytzz> topi`: so you only bet its efficient :)
681 2011-04-13 06:56:56 <topi`> well, there are latencies as well. and then you need to actually program the GPU from the host side.
682 2011-04-13 06:57:02 <krytzz> topi`: a shame i have no time to try a neon miner
683 2011-04-13 06:57:09 <topi`> krytzz: indeed, maybe I need to show the code as a proof.
684 2011-04-13 06:57:14 <genjix> yoyo topi`
685 2011-04-13 06:57:18 <topi`> morning genjix :)
686 2011-04-13 06:57:41 <krytzz> topi`: also there is a dsp on board which can be used
687 2011-04-13 06:57:44 <topi`> genjix: I spent yesterday translating the wikipedia article on Bitcoin to Finnish :)
688 2011-04-13 06:58:17 <ArtForz> massive cluster of arm cores = meh
689 2011-04-13 06:58:18 <topi`> krytzz: I don't remember if the TI dsps are efficient at bit rotates
690 2011-04-13 06:58:47 <krytzz> topi`: no idea, and there is the powervr sgx 540
691 2011-04-13 06:58:48 <topi`> ArtForz: I would just want to do a ./configure && make -j64
692 2011-04-13 06:58:49 <topi`> :)
693 2011-04-13 06:58:53 <topi`> simple ideas, simple desires!
694 2011-04-13 06:58:55 <genjix> nice.
695 2011-04-13 06:59:17 <ArtForz> and it'd still be slow as fuck
696 2011-04-13 06:59:33 <topi`> ArtForz: probably, since it's hard to do coherent SMP with high amounts of cores
697 2011-04-13 06:59:46 <ArtForz> and you also need massive ram bandwidth
698 2011-04-13 07:00:04 <genjix> but arm is efficient so it could work.
699 2011-04-13 07:00:30 <ArtForz> unless you have several MB of on-chip caches
700 2011-04-13 07:00:36 <topi`> well, I've profiled typical gcc runs and it seems that even meager 1MB local cache is enough to keep most of the mem footprint inside
701 2011-04-13 07:00:48 <topi`> now, for me it's more important to do make -j64 than to run Bitcoin mining.
702 2011-04-13 07:00:57 <topi`> and no video card can compile the linux kernel for me. end of discussion :D
703 2011-04-13 07:01:02 <ArtForz> a 1MB cache isn't exactly tiny, especially if has dozens of ports
704 2011-04-13 07:01:16 <lfm> topi`: thats 1MB PER CORE
705 2011-04-13 07:01:24 <ArtForz> imo for such large clusters, NUMA makes more sense
706 2011-04-13 07:01:42 <topi`> lfm: indeed. well, the trend nowadays is to throw a lot of transistors around :)
707 2011-04-13 07:02:08 <slush> hi, how block exchange in bitcoin works? It is single threaded?
708 2011-04-13 07:02:10 <ArtForz> well, one can afford to throw a lot of transistors around, on 45nm or smaller
709 2011-04-13 07:02:21 <topi`> ArtForz: there are many ways to implement cache coherency, the simplest is to do a bus snoop and invalidate. won't eat many transistors :)
710 2011-04-13 07:02:39 <ArtForz> you want a *shared bus* between 64 cores?
711 2011-04-13 07:02:45 <topi`> yes.
712 2011-04-13 07:02:46 <slush> When I have 100 peers and one has very bad line, does it affect distribution speed?
713 2011-04-13 07:02:59 <ArtForz> are you actively trying to make that thing slow as fuck?
714 2011-04-13 07:03:28 <topi`> ArtForz: I'm just toying around in my mind, but maybe I would make a bad electrical engineer (that's why I never managed to graduate:)
715 2011-04-13 07:06:21 <ArtForz> what I'd like to see is wider on-cpu vector units
716 2011-04-13 07:06:49 <gjs278> make -j64 wouldn't be that good for projects with less files too
717 2011-04-13 07:07:20 <topi`> gjs278: there are many other ways to explore parallelism :) have you tried using OpenMP pragmas in your codes?
718 2011-04-13 07:07:22 <ArtForz> 256 bits vector width for avx is neat, but still tiny compared to GPUs
719 2011-04-13 07:07:28 <gjs278> nope
720 2011-04-13 07:07:37 <krytzz> right, in automake projects most of the time configure runs :)
721 2011-04-13 07:07:51 <gjs278> topi` if you're interested in parallelsm go make gpg threaded
722 2011-04-13 07:07:55 <gjs278> that would be cool
723 2011-04-13 07:08:02 <topi`> OpenMP makes trivial to extract parallelism from simple problems, even from mandelbrot generation ;)
724 2011-04-13 07:08:04 <gjs278> it's such a bottleneck right now for when I encrypt my backups
725 2011-04-13 07:08:41 <topi`> gjs278: I have this image in my mind that many cryptos actually depend on the previous output of the crypto so they cannot be parallelized (easily)
726 2011-04-13 07:08:44 <gjs278> dm-crypt just got multithreaded but only in the sense that it will use separate cores to process separate files, it won't go super crazy with one file
727 2011-04-13 07:08:55 <gjs278> truecrypt can get absurd aes speeds
728 2011-04-13 07:09:24 <gjs278> especially if your processor has the aes extensions
729 2011-04-13 07:09:36 <krytzz> gjs278: are you sure? i think dm-crypt uses all cpus here
730 2011-04-13 07:09:42 <ArtForz> well, with hardware accel you could always get insane speed
731 2011-04-13 07:09:54 <gjs278> when I rate it on one file I only saw 8% max
732 2011-04-13 07:09:55 <krytzz> gjs278: IF you trust the intel aes implementation lol
733 2011-04-13 07:10:00 <gjs278> well
734 2011-04-13 07:10:19 <ArtForz> my old 1GHz epia could push > 1GB/sec AES128
735 2011-04-13 07:10:29 <gjs278> if intel aes had a backdoor, they wouldnt waste it on me
736 2011-04-13 07:11:31 <gjs278> for dm-crypt I only see 8% usage max when I try it on one file, but when I start doing multiple files I can see it using more cpu. whereas before multiple files never went past 8% period
737 2011-04-13 07:11:52 <gjs278> ok
738 2011-04-13 07:11:54 <ArtForz> huh?
739 2011-04-13 07:12:05 <gjs278> maybe I just don't have it setup right
740 2011-04-13 07:12:23 <ArtForz> dm-crypt has been using one core per mapping for years here
741 2011-04-13 07:12:29 <krytzz> hm
742 2011-04-13 07:12:32 <gjs278> they recently added it
743 2011-04-13 07:13:14 <gjs278> I'll try the dd test on a partition I have
744 2011-04-13 07:13:34 <topi`> ArtForz: does the Epia have some hw acceleration for aes128? I tested my Core2duo with openssl speed benchmark, and aes128-cbc is mere 130M/sec
745 2011-04-13 07:14:01 <ArtForz> yea
746 2011-04-13 07:14:24 <gribble> 118148
747 2011-04-13 07:14:24 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
748 2011-04-13 07:14:37 <krytzz> jgarzik: do kill -USR1 on the dd process, so you can also see the throughput
749 2011-04-13 07:14:41 <krytzz> jgarzik: sorry
750 2011-04-13 07:14:44 <ArtForz> via >= c3 nehemiah onwards has hw aes accel
751 2011-04-13 07:14:45 <krytzz> gjs278: ment you
752 2011-04-13 07:15:00 <gjs278> I'll check iotop
753 2011-04-13 07:17:06 <gjs278> 2689821184 bytes (2.7 GB) copied, 13.6794 s, 197 MB/s
754 2011-04-13 07:17:11 <gjs278> didn't see it go past 8%
755 2011-04-13 07:17:22 <gjs278> but that may just be the hd I tested it on bottlenecking it really hard
756 2011-04-13 07:17:52 <krytzz> well 197mb/s is good
757 2011-04-13 07:18:33 <lfm> faster than I can do it by hand
758 2011-04-13 07:20:27 <gjs278> I turned on some better xfs options for the partiton
759 2011-04-13 07:20:36 <gjs278> got 474mb/s for a 2gb file
760 2011-04-13 07:20:45 <krytzz> what are your harddrives?
761 2011-04-13 07:21:04 <gjs278> the xfs always screws with any transfer reading
762 2011-04-13 07:21:08 <krytzz> 474mb/s is probably hdd cache or something... cant be that fast
763 2011-04-13 07:21:18 <gjs278> yeah
764 2011-04-13 07:21:24 <gjs278> I'll do a 20gb file and see for real
765 2011-04-13 07:21:36 <krytzz> well at least your cpu is faster than your harddrive
766 2011-04-13 07:21:41 <krytzz> so nothing to worry
767 2011-04-13 07:22:10 <gjs278> gpg defintely bottlenecks me hard though
768 2011-04-13 07:22:19 <gjs278> I can't get anything past 40mb/s with gpg working on it with just aes
769 2011-04-13 07:22:30 <krytzz> then use dm-crypt :p
770 2011-04-13 07:23:33 <gjs278> as long as gparted can use it sure
771 2011-04-13 07:23:40 <gjs278> that's what I use for system rescue/backup restore
772 2011-04-13 07:26:43 <gjs278> 13415382016 bytes (13 GB) copied, 150.365 s, 89.2 MB/s
773 2011-04-13 07:30:33 <gjs278> if I crash and cant REISUB it
774 2011-04-13 07:36:41 <gjs278> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=11-998-121 this is the highest rated 120 fan... I am disappoint
775 2011-04-13 07:37:01 <ArtForz> lol
776 2011-04-13 07:37:22 <gjs278> I cant see why anyone wants an led fan
777 2011-04-13 07:37:35 <Blitzboom> blue leds make your computer faster
778 2011-04-13 07:45:07 <ArtForz> no you couldnt
779 2011-04-13 07:45:28 <gjs278> does block mining handle the transactions
780 2011-04-13 07:45:41 <sipa> it's necessary for ordering them
781 2011-04-13 07:45:51 <gjs278> do we really need
782 2011-04-13 07:45:58 <sipa> yes
783 2011-04-13 07:46:05 <ArtForz> it decides which of multiple tx try to spend the same input "wins"
784 2011-04-13 07:47:18 <BlueMatt> currently, it is easy for someone with large resources to get 50% (see: MM)
785 2011-04-13 07:48:20 <ArtForz> doesnt look like it
786 2011-04-13 07:48:39 <sipa> the big peak here: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png
787 2011-04-13 07:49:10 <sipa> but difficulty is now higher than it was after MM's intervention
788 2011-04-13 07:49:57 <sipa> there is a lot of random variation
789 2011-04-13 07:50:05 <gjs278> wow
790 2011-04-13 07:50:25 <UukGoblin> there is indeed
791 2011-04-13 07:51:10 <gjs278> people on forums are constantly discouraging new people from joining in on the mining
792 2011-04-13 07:51:56 <ArtForz> just do the math yourself
793 2011-04-13 07:52:46 <gjs278> yeah what about the price rising
794 2011-04-13 07:53:53 <BlueMatt> sipa: for obvious reasons
795 2011-04-13 07:54:01 <gjs278> I doubt that guy was legit
796 2011-04-13 07:54:52 <TD> ok
797 2011-04-13 07:54:59 <TD> how do you know it was fake?
798 2011-04-13 07:55:16 <BlueMatt> afaik, no one has ever mentioned it went through
799 2011-04-13 07:55:51 <gjs278> I'm just assuming it's fake because anyone with 200k would be smart enough to realize he could get the coins two days ago for like 75 cents each
800 2011-04-13 07:55:52 <BlueMatt> thought it could have been done without publicity
801 2011-04-13 07:56:08 <gjs278> and just buying them a couple thousand at a time
802 2011-04-13 07:56:12 <gjs278> would obviously be better
803 2011-04-13 07:56:21 <gjs278> than putting a $2 buy it now on mtgox
804 2011-04-13 07:57:23 <gjs278> in the short term the guy would lose ridiculous amounts of money on that investment
805 2011-04-13 07:57:53 <da2ce7> depends on what he was intending to do.
806 2011-04-13 07:57:59 <gjs278> I'm assuming he wanted the coins just to hold onto them in case they ever became really valuable
807 2011-04-13 07:58:06 <da2ce7> He said that he was wanting to use VC
808 2011-04-13 07:58:39 <da2ce7> but 200k is very small for VC
809 2011-04-13 07:58:42 <gjs278> it's not even a good form of vc really...
810 2011-04-13 07:59:14 <da2ce7> but if he was planning to open an extange or something like that...
811 2011-04-13 07:59:14 <gjs278> anyone using it for vc would obviously have to cash it out right away
812 2011-04-13 08:00:13 <da2ce7> and already has say 200K BTC, maybe sending the market positive price signals would be in your intrest.
813 2011-04-13 08:03:17 <mbarkhau> hello
814 2011-04-13 08:03:27 <lfm> hi
815 2011-04-13 08:03:32 <BurtyB> ho
816 2011-04-13 08:03:49 <sipa> vc?
817 2011-04-13 08:03:52 <mbarkhau> is it true that the bitcoin client only accepts requests with correct username and password http://user:password@127.0.0.1:8332
818 2011-04-13 08:03:56 <mbarkhau> ?
819 2011-04-13 08:04:05 <mrb_> woot, looks like we are currently peaking at just about 1 Thash/s
820 2011-04-13 08:04:23 <lfm> mbarkhau: ya it should
821 2011-04-13 08:04:42 <mbarkhau> but then it has complete access to the client
822 2011-04-13 08:04:53 <sipa> to all rpc calls, yes
823 2011-04-13 08:04:54 <lfm> pretty much
824 2011-04-13 08:05:18 <mbarkhau> wouldn't it be better to allow anonymous requests that can be acknowledged in the client?
825 2011-04-13 08:05:37 <sipa> damn, i'll need to adjust my graphs if we go over 1GH/s :(
826 2011-04-13 08:05:39 <mbarkhau> another app makes a request to send x btc to addr
827 2011-04-13 08:06:01 <mbarkhau> and the user can accept that transaction in the client
828 2011-04-13 08:06:11 <lfm> mbarkhau: um thats exactly the sort of request youd want a password for
829 2011-04-13 08:06:36 <lfm> mbarkhau: oh you dont need to acces the client to RECEIVE money
830 2011-04-13 08:07:02 <mbarkhau> no but I may not want to give another app total access to my wallet
831 2011-04-13 08:07:09 <gjs278> you don't even accept tranfers, they're just yours
832 2011-04-13 08:07:21 <gjs278> you can always give it back though
833 2011-04-13 08:07:46 <lfm> mbarkhau: well spending money is exactly the sort of thing you want a password for
834 2011-04-13 08:08:26 <mbarkhau> maybe i'm not being clear
835 2011-04-13 08:09:11 <mbarkhau> i would like to write an app that can ask for a transaction to be made, but it is not actually made until the user accepts it in the bitcoin client
836 2011-04-13 08:09:32 <mbarkhau> why would i need a password for that?
837 2011-04-13 08:09:57 <lfm> mbarkhau: thats not supported. youd need a new intermediary to do that
838 2011-04-13 08:10:03 <gjs278> how are you going to make the request
839 2011-04-13 08:10:26 <gjs278> bitcoin client doesn't have such a feature as of yet... so not sure how you'd send it in
840 2011-04-13 08:11:06 <mbarkhau> gjs278: then i guess this is a feature request...
841 2011-04-13 08:11:13 <gjs278> eh
842 2011-04-13 08:11:20 <gjs278> it's a little complicated for a feature request
843 2011-04-13 08:11:45 <gjs278> are you basically using it like a way to send people bills
844 2011-04-13 08:11:58 <da2ce7> sipa, venture capital
845 2011-04-13 08:11:58 <gjs278> like you request the 50 coins from them, and they can just hit okay in their client and pay up
846 2011-04-13 08:12:14 <lfm> better to do it as a separate program that accepts requests and then asks for ok then subits the txn to bitcoin with the password.
847 2011-04-13 08:12:21 <Kay_> hi guys, i am trying to run Bitcoin on my mac and keep getting an error: "locale 'en_ZA' could not be set". any chance i could get help? searched but havent found anything.
848 2011-04-13 08:12:47 <mbarkhau> gjs278: that would be one usage
849 2011-04-13 08:13:22 <mbarkhau> i am thinking about writing an app and don't want the user to have give access to their entire wallet
850 2011-04-13 08:13:26 <gjs278> do you have local access to the machine that will be getting the requests
851 2011-04-13 08:13:29 <gjs278> like
852 2011-04-13 08:13:32 <gjs278> the wallet.dat is on the computer
853 2011-04-13 08:13:40 <lfm> isolate the password knowing to the special intermeiadat program
854 2011-04-13 08:13:47 <gjs278> you could just avoid the protocol altogether
855 2011-04-13 08:13:52 <gjs278> and write like a request.txt file to the datadir
856 2011-04-13 08:13:54 <mbarkhau> gjs278: ha, ok thats true
857 2011-04-13 08:13:57 <gjs278> and code in support for that in bitcoin
858 2011-04-13 08:14:19 <gjs278> like poll for request.txt, and if it pops up, do the queued transaction
859 2011-04-13 08:14:47 <gjs278> no need to really mess with anonymous support in the protocol if you're local, over a network different issue I guess
860 2011-04-13 08:14:47 <lfm> you want to tell the requester program if it was accepted tho dont you?
861 2011-04-13 08:15:27 <mbarkhau> gjs278: on the other hand then it would be specific to the bitcoin client
862 2011-04-13 08:15:28 <gjs278> mark the request.txt in a way that indicates it is complete
863 2011-04-13 08:15:39 <sipa> why would you do so? just send the request through json?
864 2011-04-13 08:15:49 <gjs278> he wants to avoid using his password
865 2011-04-13 08:15:51 <sipa> *rpc
866 2011-04-13 08:15:52 <lfm> sipa read back
867 2011-04-13 08:15:55 <gjs278> so the json request would fail
868 2011-04-13 08:17:00 <lfm> I still think its better to do it as a separate program that accepts requests and then asks for ok then submits the txn to bitcoin with the password.
869 2011-04-13 08:17:11 <gjs278> oh yeah
870 2011-04-13 08:17:21 <gjs278> that does make more sense
871 2011-04-13 08:17:29 <gjs278> no need to touch bitcoin then
872 2011-04-13 08:17:36 <lfm> right
873 2011-04-13 08:18:22 <mbarkhau> lfm: i guess that would work
874 2011-04-13 08:19:00 <gjs278> what do you plan on making with it
875 2011-04-13 08:19:15 <mbarkhau> gjs278: top secret ;)
876 2011-04-13 08:19:45 <gjs278> lol
877 2011-04-13 08:19:51 <gjs278> are you going to opensource it
878 2011-04-13 08:21:14 <mbarkhau> gjs278: i would say so yes
879 2011-04-13 08:21:34 <lfm> also anyone in the same user account can read the username/password from ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.config
880 2011-04-13 08:22:01 <gjs278> that's why the plan is only slightly flawed
881 2011-04-13 08:22:57 <mbarkhau> lfm: yes I just realized that pretty much makes my whole concern muted by another concern
882 2011-04-13 08:23:06 <lfm> hehe
883 2011-04-13 08:27:46 <sacarlson> that json method of transaction if done over wan isn't the username:password visable though your ISP?
884 2011-04-13 08:28:14 <gjs278> yeah
885 2011-04-13 08:28:31 <gjs278> your isp also has your irc password at the moment, expect to be ghosted in 5 minutes
886 2011-04-13 08:28:34 <sacarlson> gjs278: so I guess only ment to be used to localhost?
887 2011-04-13 08:28:52 <sipa> there's rpc-ssl
888 2011-04-13 08:29:39 <sacarlson> gjs278: why are you running the irc server box?
889 2011-04-13 08:29:56 <gjs278> of course not
890 2011-04-13 08:30:54 <sacarlson> gjs278: well I would think to see the user:pass would require access from the ISP or at the end of the transaction of the server box
891 2011-04-13 08:32:37 <sacarlson> I run a very small ISP and I sometimes monitor trafic with wireshark,  I wonder how many other ISP techs do the same
892 2011-04-13 08:33:13 <gjs278> not cool
893 2011-04-13 08:33:17 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: you are a douche
894 2011-04-13 08:34:02 <da2ce7> traffice is clear anyway, if your isp isn't looking at you, then sombody else it.
895 2011-04-13 08:34:14 <sacarlson> gjs278: I have to test the network to verify what's broken,  I get complaints from users and I need to find the problem and I just use the tools that are available
896 2011-04-13 08:34:25 <gjs278> well
897 2011-04-13 08:34:28 <gjs278> that's a little different
898 2011-04-13 08:34:43 <gjs278> I can imagine every isp tech would do the same if they were debugging something
899 2011-04-13 08:34:49 <sacarlson> gjs278: but in doing so I also see what is visable to the eye
900 2011-04-13 08:35:18 <gjs278> I'm sure a glance at it is nothing more than youtube and facebook traffic
901 2011-04-13 08:35:29 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: ever heard of the wireshark search bar (the big one at the top)
902 2011-04-13 08:35:57 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: you mean the filters?  I use those at times
903 2011-04-13 08:36:08 <BlueMatt> so then why do you see what people are doing
904 2011-04-13 08:36:13 <gjs278> wireshark revealed how easy it is to fake a minecraft auth server
905 2011-04-13 08:36:15 <BlueMatt> aside from the person with the problem of course
906 2011-04-13 08:36:18 <gjs278> filter out 80
907 2011-04-13 08:36:19 <gjs278> or
908 2011-04-13 08:36:24 <gjs278> filter only the ip you want
909 2011-04-13 08:36:28 <gjs278> and then your spying problems go away
910 2011-04-13 08:36:43 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: I can monitor just dns lookup so I can see where they attempted to go
911 2011-04-13 08:36:53 <BlueMatt> gjs278: there is a difference between reverse engineering your stuff and watching what people are doing
912 2011-04-13 08:36:58 <da2ce7> or just run tor and only conenct to your web-proxy throogh your own private hidden service.
913 2011-04-13 08:37:01 <gjs278> yeah I know
914 2011-04-13 08:37:09 <gjs278> but that's the only time I ever used wireshark really
915 2011-04-13 08:37:22 <BlueMatt> I use it to diagnose problems all the time
916 2011-04-13 08:37:37 <gjs278> "reverse engineering" in minecrafts case was just an md5 sum that you can return and it will be accepted everytime
917 2011-04-13 08:37:51 <BlueMatt> lol what a fail
918 2011-04-13 08:38:53 <sacarlson> and I've also seen that wireshark works well at monitoring wifi networks in the same maner
919 2011-04-13 08:40:42 <BlueMatt> speaking of debugging, anyone ever heard of bind returning crap after looking up dns from servers that it should never bu using to resolve? even dig +trace works fine as does dnstrace
920 2011-04-13 08:40:44 <sacarlson> the point is that this json method should not be used on the wan or wifi am I correct?
921 2011-04-13 08:40:55 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: yep
922 2011-04-13 08:41:17 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: really, it should just be listening on localhost
923 2011-04-13 08:42:06 <BlueMatt> Though, I run mine through a lighttpd proxy which handles auth and https and then only that server is allowed to connect to rpc
924 2011-04-13 08:42:28 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: that's what I was thinking,  I guess it could work ok on a switched lan network but it could still be mestup if someone tried to spoof an ip address