1 2011-04-21 00:00:10 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: in the IRC logs
  2 2011-04-21 00:00:29 <[Tycho]> So if it's not used now, how can it broke ?
  3 2011-04-21 00:01:09 <luke-jr> bitcoin:19ut7h2sp9jKf5dpnK36FCPGu8L1cHnPSE?amount=x1x4
  4 2011-04-21 00:01:10 <luke-jr> there's one for you
  5 2011-04-21 00:01:28 <lfm_> huh?
  6 2011-04-21 00:01:35 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: you don't know the meaning of "broken by design"? in any case, I haven't used the word "broke" in this discussion
  7 2011-04-21 00:02:29 <[Tycho]> [05:57] <luke-jr> since all the clients support it now, removing it just to add it back later would be more effort, and result in URIs breaking for people who don't upgrade in the middle
  8 2011-04-21 00:02:35 <lfm_> x1x4 is broke
  9 2011-04-21 00:02:38 <[Tycho]> "result in URIs breaking"
 10 2011-04-21 00:02:46 <[Tycho]> You said it.
 11 2011-04-21 00:03:16 <luke-jr> lfm_: nope, fully conforming and works in any compliant client
 12 2011-04-21 00:03:27 <lfm_> why add it later tho? what are you taling about
 13 2011-04-21 00:03:50 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: yes, if someone is using a "durr, we removed exponent support" version and clicks a URI with an exponent, it will do the wrong thing
 14 2011-04-21 00:04:35 <lfm_> it will be properly rejected as non standard as it always has been
 15 2011-04-21 00:04:43 <luke-jr> lfm_: it is standard
 16 2011-04-21 00:04:50 <[Tycho]> Yes, but there are no URIs with exponent in real life yet.
 17 2011-04-21 00:04:54 <lfm_> there is no standard yet
 18 2011-04-21 00:04:55 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: sure there are
 19 2011-04-21 00:05:09 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: there's one on your IRC screen right now even!
 20 2011-04-21 00:05:27 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: in any case, I was talking about your "add it later" future
 21 2011-04-21 00:05:43 <luke-jr> when people say "hey, we really do want that" and add it back in
 22 2011-04-21 00:05:59 <lfm_> ok so you must support ternary values too then cuz I am gonna show you one in ten second and it will be "used" then
 23 2011-04-21 00:06:00 <[Tycho]> It's IRC, not real life :)
 24 2011-04-21 00:06:04 <luke-jr> then all of a sudden, the "new" URIs won't work with old clients
 25 2011-04-21 00:06:17 <luke-jr> lfm_: nothing supports your ternary values
 26 2011-04-21 00:06:23 <luke-jr> lfm_: everything supports the current spec
 27 2011-04-21 00:06:25 <lfm_> bitcoin:19ut7h2sp9jKf5dpnK36FCPGu8L1cHnPSE?amount=b3-//-/
 28 2011-04-21 00:06:33 <luke-jr> (except js-remote I guess)
 29 2011-04-21 00:06:37 <lfm_> now it is STANDARD
 30 2011-04-21 00:06:54 <luke-jr> lfm_: nope, that was never part of the specification, and was never implemented
 31 2011-04-21 00:06:55 <[Tycho]> Lots of people use ternary ! There are even ternary computers :)
 32 2011-04-21 00:07:13 <lfm_> there is no spec, only your proposal
 33 2011-04-21 00:07:42 <luke-jr> lfm_: an implemented proposal sitting happily for months becomes a standard
 34 2011-04-21 00:07:57 <lfm_> i just implemeted in my 5 different user interfaces for bitcoin, havnt you seem them?
 35 2011-04-21 00:07:57 <luke-jr> lfm_: even to the point that there was a bounty put up for adding it to wx
 36 2011-04-21 00:08:29 <lfm_> the bounty was 100000 btc and I collected it,
 37 2011-04-21 00:09:24 <lfm_> you must add it to the spec now or you will be discriminating again a vocal minority
 38 2011-04-21 00:11:39 <luke-jr> lfm_: you're a troll.
 39 2011-04-21 00:12:06 <lfm_> a spec no one want and everyone (except one person) ignores is no standard
 40 2011-04-21 00:12:09 <[Tycho]> "You assume a glim future where people still use not only decimal, but BTC" - oh, i didn't know that all this was a joke.
 41 2011-04-21 00:13:10 <luke-jr> lfm_: obviously plenty of people want it, and every client (except one) implementing it is not ignored
 42 2011-04-21 00:13:35 <lfm_> my 5 clkients never implemented it
 43 2011-04-21 00:14:10 <lfm_> but my 5 clients implement the spec I put up on my server 3 years ago with my 5 clients
 44 2011-04-21 00:15:12 <lfm_> yes, you will ignore my 5 clients and my spec for ternary (and properly so)
 45 2011-04-21 00:15:44 <lfm_> but you cant see why people will ignore yours
 46 2011-04-21 00:22:14 <DukeOfURL> wx?
 47 2011-04-21 00:22:38 <luke-jr> DukeOfURL: the bitcoin client that is on bitcoin.org presently
 48 2011-04-21 00:22:51 <DukeOfURL> k
 49 2011-04-21 00:22:58 <lfm_> DukeOfURL: wx widgets is a package used by bitcoin
 50 2011-04-21 00:23:20 <luke-jr> I should finish up a Windows release of Spesmilo to challenge their marketshare.
 51 2011-04-21 00:23:31 <lfm_> DukeOfURL: in other word the package that almost everyone uses
 52 2011-04-21 00:23:45 <DukeOfURL> k
 53 2011-04-21 00:25:50 <luke-jr> in the meantime, Bitcoin bigots will ignore Tonal because they don't use it, and Tonal users will ignore Bitcoin because they see nothing to gain
 54 2011-04-21 00:26:02 <luke-jr> it's no better than USD or EUR
 55 2011-04-21 00:26:16 <jgarzik> I think bitcoin will survive
 56 2011-04-21 00:27:02 <Blitzboom> damn, no tonal users?
 57 2011-04-21 00:27:50 <DukeOfURL> i though i saw a guy with 16 fingers over there...
 58 2011-04-21 00:27:55 <doublec> how many tonal users are there?
 59 2011-04-21 00:28:12 <luke-jr> doublec: nobody's counted lately
 60 2011-04-21 00:34:27 <appamatto> Is tonal a bitcoin competitor?
 61 2011-04-21 00:34:38 <doublec> no, tonal is a numbering system
 62 2011-04-21 00:35:03 <doublec> appamatto: http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/tonal-system/10991091
 63 2011-04-21 00:35:32 <appamatto> Nice!
 64 2011-04-21 00:35:39 <appamatto> I've wanted to do hexidecimal math
 65 2011-04-21 00:35:51 <doublec> you and luke-jr should get along just fine :)
 66 2011-04-21 00:36:01 <appamatto> haha
 67 2011-04-21 00:36:25 <appamatto> or octal
 68 2011-04-21 00:36:35 <appamatto> We need to learn the language of our overlords
 69 2011-04-21 00:37:17 <DukeOfURL> are any of you old enough to remember shillings, pence, farthings, etc.?
 70 2011-04-21 00:37:37 <appamatto> Read those terms in books
 71 2011-04-21 00:37:38 <DukeOfURL> well, they changed it to a decimal system
 72 2011-04-21 00:37:57 <luke-jr> DukeOfURL: worst mistake ever
 73 2011-04-21 00:38:07 <lfm_> yup, not many people realize the computers took over the world way back in the 1960s
 74 2011-04-21 00:38:40 <DukeOfURL> well, computers took over check processing in the 60s
 75 2011-04-21 00:38:59 <DukeOfURL> but the Apollo missions were analog
 76 2011-04-21 00:39:08 <lfm_> it was back then it was noticed that the finacial system was so relient on mag OCR coded cheques and so many were being used that it was impossible already to handle them by humans
 77 2011-04-21 00:39:51 <DukeOfURL> it would have taken the entire population to handle checks during the 60s.  This was before BankAmericard.
 78 2011-04-21 00:40:09 <DukeOfURL> s'handle'process'
 79 2011-04-21 00:42:50 <lfm_> DukeOfURL: appolo also had digital computers
 80 2011-04-21 00:43:00 <lfm_> apollo
 81 2011-04-21 00:43:20 <DukeOfURL> yes, 7090 and 7030Stretch that sat on the ground
 82 2011-04-21 00:44:07 <DukeOfURL> IBM computers of the day
 83 2011-04-21 00:44:51 <lfm_> I thot they has a "mini" onboard too but I may be confusing with the early shuttle computer
 84 2011-04-21 00:45:43 <DukeOfURL> As I recall, the shuttle has five computers.  Each checks the results of the others.  They have/had a very odd word size--18 bits?
 85 2011-04-21 00:46:23 <lfm_> not so odd, 18 and 36 bit words used to be much more common
 86 2011-04-21 00:46:24 <DukeOfURL> As I understand, each phase of the flight required a reload of a program.  There was the launch program, orbit program, etc.
 87 2011-04-21 00:46:55 <DukeOfURL> 36 bits in 7090 in GE735/Honeywell 6000.
 88 2011-04-21 00:47:16 <lfm_> univac 1100 series which I actually worked on
 89 2011-04-21 00:47:40 <DukeOfURL> In the early to mid 60s it was all core memory.  Sense amps that required adjustment, etc.
 90 2011-04-21 00:47:54 <DukeOfURL> 36bits was a BIG memory
 91 2011-04-21 00:47:57 <lfm_> then the cdc 6000 series had the big "supercomputer" 60 bit words
 92 2011-04-21 00:48:15 <DukeOfURL> yikes
 93 2011-04-21 00:48:21 <DukeOfURL> expensive
 94 2011-04-21 00:48:35 <lfm_> yup a whole 65k words
 95 2011-04-21 00:50:05 <DukeOfURL> I remember the IBM1620.  A decimal machine.  Did table lookups to do adds and multiplies.
 96 2011-04-21 00:50:59 <DukeOfURL> But it had floating point, which was a big deal in the early 60s.  ONe could sit there and watch it do a FP divide on the lights.  :-)
 97 2011-04-21 00:51:46 <RenaKunisaki> and instead of punch cards you chiseled zeros and ones into rock slabs? :p
 98 2011-04-21 00:51:52 <DukeOfURL> heh
 99 2011-04-21 00:52:12 <RenaKunisaki> get one of those mining Bitcoins, see  how long it takes to generate a block
100 2011-04-21 00:52:57 <lfm_> RenaKunisaki: http://www.icfpcontest.org/contact.shtml
101 2011-04-21 00:53:04 <DukeOfURL> Honeywell came out with a floating point processor in the late 60s.  No error checking.  Ralston Purina bought one to mix feed.  One day, 6 million chickens died.
102 2011-04-21 00:53:16 <RenaKunisaki> o.o
103 2011-04-21 00:53:23 <DukeOfURL> not a good day for honeywell
104 2011-04-21 00:53:57 <lfm_> RenaKunisaki: http://www.icfpcontest.org just this
105 2011-04-21 00:54:24 <lfm_> the ultimate machine that uses the tablets
106 2011-04-21 00:55:04 <RenaKunisaki> hmm don't see much there
107 2011-04-21 00:55:26 <lfm_> RenaKunisaki: try http://www.icfpcontest.org/contact.shtml
108 2011-04-21 00:55:35 <lfm_> sorry wrong again
109 2011-04-21 00:56:27 <lfm_> rena  http://www.boundvariable.org/
110 2011-04-21 00:57:20 <RenaKunisaki> haha nice
111 2011-04-21 01:01:13 <lfm_> RenaKunisaki: one of the main jokes was their civilization collapsed due to year 200bc bugs
112 2011-04-21 01:01:19 <RenaKunisaki> lol
113 2011-04-21 01:01:51 <RenaKunisaki> that pesky Y-0.2K
114 2011-04-21 01:03:51 <lfm_> cmu did some amazing software for the project all running on their clay tablet machine spec that the contestants has to write an emultor for to run the sample programs to find more clues
115 2011-04-21 01:40:00 <gribble> User Kiba, with hostmask None, was created on Wed Apr 20 17:30:04 2011, and has a cumulative rating of 2, from a total of 1 ratings. Of these, 1 are positive and 0 are negative. This user has also sent 0 positive ratings, and 0 negative ratings to others.
116 2011-04-21 01:40:00 <Kiba> ;;getrating kiba
117 2011-04-21 01:50:06 <gjs278> [Tycho] kick these new people out of the pool
118 2011-04-21 01:50:15 <gjs278> they're flooding into my precious percentage
119 2011-04-21 01:51:19 <luke-jr> lol
120 2011-04-21 01:51:54 <tcatm> start your own subpool and you can have 100%
121 2011-04-21 01:54:06 <[Tycho]> Oh, someone didn't switched off percentage display ? :)
122 2011-04-21 01:54:22 <[Tycho]> How many % do you have ?
123 2011-04-21 01:55:47 <luke-jr> gjs278: I'll probably start a new pool soon
124 2011-04-21 01:56:13 <[Tycho]> Hmm, may be i should allow users to set nicknames :)
125 2011-04-21 01:56:59 <[Tycho]> For top10 most effective users :) Or top10 stale submitters :)
126 2011-04-21 01:57:15 <[Tycho]> And for comments in pool's blog.
127 2011-04-21 01:57:37 <gjs278> I'm like .28 now
128 2011-04-21 01:57:40 <gjs278> I used to be .50
129 2011-04-21 01:57:54 <gjs278> and would get like 20 cents a block
130 2011-04-21 01:57:58 <gjs278> now I'm getting 9 - 11
131 2011-04-21 01:58:07 <echelon> that's the problem with cooperatives, the people who have been there before want to preserve their share
132 2011-04-21 01:58:07 <[Tycho]> Buy more 5970s
133 2011-04-21 01:58:36 <gjs278> I need one of those 1x to 16x things
134 2011-04-21 01:58:37 <luke-jr> gjs278: but how many more blocks are you getting?
135 2011-04-21 01:58:43 <[Tycho]> The profit doesn't depends on number of users.
136 2011-04-21 01:59:02 <[Tycho]> gjs278, http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6128.0
137 2011-04-21 01:59:03 <gjs278> I'm officially leeching at this point
138 2011-04-21 01:59:12 <gjs278> I've found 2 blocks, have received about 115 coins
139 2011-04-21 01:59:23 <gjs278> there we go
140 2011-04-21 01:59:29 <gjs278> if I have that I could fit another card
141 2011-04-21 01:59:35 <[Tycho]> (not tested)
142 2011-04-21 01:59:51 <gjs278> yeah I'll look around
143 2011-04-21 01:59:56 <echelon> so if a 100 new miners joined, it wouldn't have an affect on the amount each person would get?
144 2011-04-21 02:00:34 <gjs278> well I used to get like 40 cents a block, but the difficulty was lower so that's why
145 2011-04-21 02:00:47 <gjs278> this was when deepbit was like 60ghash
146 2011-04-21 02:00:58 <gjs278> now it's at least 100 more than that
147 2011-04-21 02:01:13 <gjs278> 40 cents a block at the same rate***
148 2011-04-21 02:01:56 <gjs278> = 3.37 BTC in last 24h with a 5870 and 3 xeon cpu miners shooting away
149 2011-04-21 02:02:58 <[Tycho]> echelon, no.
150 2011-04-21 02:05:22 <echelon> oh, i was assuming if the 100 miners didn't have any output
151 2011-04-21 02:05:26 <echelon> got it
152 2011-04-21 02:05:27 <[Tycho]> Today's luck was around -10%, so it means that on average you'll get 3.7 BTC
153 2011-04-21 02:10:59 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: er, dude
154 2011-04-21 02:11:03 <Diablo-D3> turn your cpu miners off
155 2011-04-21 02:11:08 <Diablo-D3> thats a waste of time and money
156 2011-04-21 02:11:11 <gjs278> no
157 2011-04-21 02:11:21 <gjs278> the guy at work and I are splitting them
158 2011-04-21 02:11:33 <gjs278> they do movie encoding for most of their cycles
159 2011-04-21 02:11:53 <gjs278> but if the queue is empty, mother nature gets raped in favor of .01 bitcoins
160 2011-04-21 02:12:17 <gjs278> it was a nice transition from folding@home anyways
161 2011-04-21 02:14:09 <gjs278> I'm disappointed in the hyperthreading though
162 2011-04-21 02:14:30 <gjs278> get the exact same with 12 threads as 6 threads
163 2011-04-21 02:14:41 <lfm_> I think most people were disappointed in the hyperthreading
164 2011-04-21 02:15:01 <grbgout> hmm, why does getaccountaddress create a new address for the account?
165 2011-04-21 02:15:19 <lfm_> thats what its for
166 2011-04-21 02:15:40 <grbgout> lfm_: not according to the help... or intuition: getaccountaddress <account> Returns the current bitcoin address for receiving payments to this account.
167 2011-04-21 02:15:54 <grbgout> lfm_: I would assume that would be the behavior of getnewaddress
168 2011-04-21 02:16:20 <doublec> grbgout: it gives an address for the account that is always the same, until a payment is received, then it returns a different address
169 2011-04-21 02:17:30 <grbgout> doublec: what miner are you using for namecoin?
170 2011-04-21 02:17:47 <grbgout> I just saw "[2011-04-21 00:14:13] PROOF OF WORK RESULT: false (booooo)" from jgarzik's cpuminer T_T
171 2011-04-21 02:17:58 <gjs278> I've gotten that before
172 2011-04-21 02:18:19 <grbgout> just got another...
173 2011-04-21 02:19:11 <gjs278> I've been doing 925 for 2 days and 19 hours straight now, time to try 950 again
174 2011-04-21 02:19:22 <grbgout> ?
175 2011-04-21 02:19:31 <gjs278> for gpu speed
176 2011-04-21 02:19:34 <gjs278> I crash at 950 sometimes
177 2011-04-21 02:19:38 <doublec> grbgout: poclbm
178 2011-04-21 02:19:39 <jgarzik> grbgout: turn on debugging (-D) to see if that is due to hash < target
179 2011-04-21 02:20:00 <gjs278> poclbm is slower than jgarzik's for cpu
180 2011-04-21 02:20:06 <grbgout> jgarzik: will do, and wow the 4way sure does improve things
181 2011-04-21 02:20:07 <gjs278> like half a megahash for me
182 2011-04-21 02:20:24 <gjs278> what processor do you have
183 2011-04-21 02:20:33 <gjs278> sse2_64 was much faster for me than 4way
184 2011-04-21 02:20:34 <jgarzik> grbgout: it's also possible someone pointed lots of GPU at namecoin, and blocks are being generated rapidly.  that would cause 'false' return value, due to stale work.
185 2011-04-21 02:21:36 <grbgout> gjs278: I've gained about 450khash with 4way
186 2011-04-21 02:21:47 <gjs278> are you amd or intel
187 2011-04-21 02:22:09 <grbgout> gjs278: amd, and 100khash on another cpu (different machine)
188 2011-04-21 02:22:09 <lfm_> ya 4way is still fastest on my phenom II
189 2011-04-21 02:22:17 <gjs278> yeah I figured
190 2011-04-21 02:22:51 <grbgout> gjs278: I tried the sse2_64 first, since I'm on a 64bit proc
191 2011-04-21 02:22:59 <gjs278> sse2 is for the intels
192 2011-04-21 02:23:17 <gjs278> the _64 is there to mislead you
193 2011-04-21 02:23:20 <grbgout> ;)
194 2011-04-21 02:23:28 <grbgout> Is there an algo specifically for AMDs?
195 2011-04-21 02:24:08 <lfm_> 4way was written on amd even if it runs ok on other machines
196 2011-04-21 02:24:22 <grbgout> i see
197 2011-04-21 02:24:42 <gjs278> whats the extension do
198 2011-04-21 02:24:56 <Kiba> let you send bitcoin
199 2011-04-21 02:25:18 <gjs278> how could that even work unless it connected to a running bitcoin process
200 2011-04-21 02:25:26 <Kiba> it is
201 2011-04-21 02:25:29 <doublec> grbgout: I get the false work result on cpuminer too
202 2011-04-21 02:25:56 <gjs278> not much of an extension in that case...
203 2011-04-21 02:26:16 <gjs278> I mean it's got some use, but requires you to run a program for it, I can't think of any other extension I have in my browser that requires that
204 2011-04-21 02:26:45 <Kiba> gjs278: anyway, that's why I am trying to develop it further
205 2011-04-21 02:26:55 <gjs278> yeah step process I guess
206 2011-04-21 02:26:56 <Kiba> but I lack knowledge about chrome's API
207 2011-04-21 02:27:04 <gjs278> first make it work with a running background and json away
208 2011-04-21 02:27:12 <gjs278> and then see where it goes
209 2011-04-21 02:28:14 <da2ce7> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6219.0
210 2011-04-21 02:28:18 <da2ce7> I have mad a better poll
211 2011-04-21 02:28:21 <da2ce7> *made
212 2011-04-21 02:28:52 <RenaKunisaki> www.bitcoin.org uses an invalid security certificate. The certificate is not trusted because it is self-signed. The certificate is only valid for Bitcoin
213 2011-04-21 02:28:56 <RenaKunisaki> that normal?
214 2011-04-21 02:29:13 <da2ce7> yep, bitcoin.org uses a self signed
215 2011-04-21 02:29:13 <Diablo-D3> yes thats normal
216 2011-04-21 02:29:13 <RenaKunisaki> k
217 2011-04-21 02:29:15 <gjs278> good
218 2011-04-21 02:29:17 <gjs278> fuck paying for certificates
219 2011-04-21 02:29:54 <gjs278> anyways, this poll is biased. look at the topic number. 6219.0. decimal. make the topic number in tonal and I'll consider even *looking* at it
220 2011-04-21 02:30:34 <RenaKunisaki> agreed. I just have a policy of always getting at least one confirmation before accepting any "invalid" cert :p
221 2011-04-21 02:30:42 <grbgout> gjs278: -_-
222 2011-04-21 02:31:06 <gjs278> how do I express 278 in tonal. I want that to be my new nickname
223 2011-04-21 02:31:18 <gjs278> I'm tired of living with these shackles
224 2011-04-21 02:31:24 <da2ce7> gjs278, you can always send sirius a patch
225 2011-04-21 02:33:20 <Kiba> yay! success
226 2011-04-21 02:33:50 <luke-jr> gjs278: you don't need to pay for certs
227 2011-04-21 02:34:08 <gjs278> the browser providers don't include all of them though
228 2011-04-21 02:34:11 <gjs278> as trusted providers
229 2011-04-21 02:34:21 <luke-jr> Startcom is pretty well-included
230 2011-04-21 02:35:32 <luke-jr> da2ce7: omg let's create 500 redundant pollz<<<<11111111oneone
231 2011-04-21 02:36:09 <RenaKunisaki> are people talking about actually using base 16 to represent Bitcoin amounts?
232 2011-04-21 02:36:30 <RenaKunisaki> like if I have 90 bitcoins and I get 10 more I now have A0?
233 2011-04-21 02:37:00 <doublec> s/people/1 person/
234 2011-04-21 02:37:04 <RenaKunisaki> heh
235 2011-04-21 02:37:06 <grbgout> RenaKunisaki: presuming both values are representing hex....
236 2011-04-21 02:37:20 <grbgout> s/representing/represented in/
237 2011-04-21 02:37:37 <RenaKunisaki> good luck getting the general public to accept that
238 2011-04-21 02:38:05 <Kiba> Don't Repeat Yourself man!
239 2011-04-21 02:38:20 <RenaKunisaki> 4/3 of people can't even handle simple fractions, negative numbers, etc, but let's start up a non-base-10 currency system
240 2011-04-21 02:38:34 <grbgout> RenaKunisaki: don't forget fractions. ;)
241 2011-04-21 02:38:40 <grbgout> d'oh
242 2011-04-21 02:38:44 <RenaKunisaki> :p
243 2011-04-21 02:38:50 <grbgout> read "simple fractions" as "simple functions"
244 2011-04-21 02:39:28 <da2ce7> I like the idea of using fractions for expressing bitcoin... you can then send 1/3 BTC :)
245 2011-04-21 02:39:45 <grbgout> hah
246 2011-04-21 02:39:46 <RenaKunisaki> oh helllll no
247 2011-04-21 02:40:25 <Kiba> the codebase is a disorganized mess
248 2011-04-21 02:42:03 <sacarlson> how this for my new proto coin pszTimestamp="21/Apr/11 New York Times, Apple faced questions on Wednesday about the security of its iPhone and iPad after a report that the devices regularly record their locations in a hidden file."
249 2011-04-21 02:42:13 <grbgout> hmm, why was namecoin started at a difficulty of 512?
250 2011-04-21 02:42:19 <luke-jr> RenaKunisaki: it's not for the "general public"
251 2011-04-21 02:42:41 <luke-jr> RenaKunisaki: and no, 90 BTC is 21871.19 TBC
252 2011-04-21 02:42:53 <RenaKunisaki> why not? I'd love to pay for my groceries in bitcoins
253 2011-04-21 02:43:04 <luke-jr> RenaKunisaki: because 90 BTC is really 9,000,000,000 bitcoin units
254 2011-04-21 02:43:28 <noagendamarket> sacarlson nice :)
255 2011-04-21 02:43:38 <luke-jr> RenaKunisaki: converted to tonal, 218711900
256 2011-04-21 02:43:49 <luke-jr> and TBC are that / 1,0000
257 2011-04-21 02:43:52 <sacarlson> noagendamarket: not too long?
258 2011-04-21 02:43:53 <RenaKunisaki> yeah that won't confuse people at all
259 2011-04-21 02:44:01 <luke-jr> RenaKunisaki: if you don't like it, use BTC
260 2011-04-21 02:44:18 <luke-jr> RenaKunisaki: nobody's forcing you to use TBC
261 2011-04-21 02:44:32 <da2ce7> we should express bitcoin by two unsigned 32bit ints A/B  that will allow for any number from 4,294,967,295 to 1/4,294,967,295  where 1/1 = 1BTC
262 2011-04-21 02:44:54 <noagendamarket> sacarlson no
263 2011-04-21 02:45:01 <noagendamarket> its a headline
264 2011-04-21 02:45:03 <noagendamarket> :)
265 2011-04-21 02:45:06 <sacarlson> noagendamarket: thanks
266 2011-04-21 02:45:17 <luke-jr> da2ce7: that encoding is too redundant
267 2011-04-21 02:45:32 <luke-jr> da2ce7: it would make your 1BTC encodable in 256 different ways
268 2011-04-21 02:45:43 <da2ce7> luke-jr, so?
269 2011-04-21 02:46:25 <luke-jr> da2ce7: more problematic, is that there is no way to represent many current values in it
270 2011-04-21 02:46:50 <luke-jr> it's essentially a low-precision floating point
271 2011-04-21 02:47:39 <da2ce7> it is fixed-precision, you don't have any rounding issues.
272 2011-04-21 02:51:16 <doublec> grbgout: probably a comprimise between allowing cpu miners to get somewhere and not having some gpu run away with tons of blocks early
273 2011-04-21 02:51:51 <grbgout> doublec: yeah, good point.
274 2011-04-21 02:52:11 <warpi> what does SEPA mean?
275 2011-04-21 02:52:25 <warpi> it is in the content of transmitting EUR between banks....
276 2011-04-21 02:57:16 <sacarlson> so I note that if you were to use bitcoin proto coin to trade in corporation you could just create all the coins you planed to sell shares in and then set the MAX_MONEY to the number of total coins already created and then it should auto start charging fee's?
277 2011-04-21 03:02:05 <doublec> jgarzik: message from cpuminer when running against namecoind is TrgVal? no (false positive; hash > target)
278 2011-04-21 03:02:23 <doublec> jgarzik: Target: 00000000007fff00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
279 2011-04-21 03:02:38 <doublec> jgarzik: Proof: 00000000338b10e77195f86ea8c225862ec85bea74b2f98dd41db1b9e2076695
280 2011-04-21 03:09:06 <luke-jr> da2ce7: it's as "fixed precision" as doubles are
281 2011-04-21 03:10:05 <luke-jr> da2ce7: all a double is, is a 48-bit numerator and a 15-bit denominator expressed as an exponent
282 2011-04-21 03:10:30 <luke-jr> (bitcounts might be off, but that's beside the point)
283 2011-04-21 03:14:56 <da2ce7> luke-jr, you cannot send 55/3 BTC to sombody with double as the sliding factor is not arbitrary
284 2011-04-21 03:29:33 <luke-jr> da2ce7: it's because the denominator is encoded as a mere exponent
285 2011-04-21 03:29:48 <luke-jr> unrelated to the floating-point-ness
286 2011-04-21 03:48:36 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r54 /trunk/tests/com/google/bitcoin/core/ECKeyTest.java:
287 2011-04-21 03:49:23 <jgarzik> doublec: well, there ya go...
288 2011-04-21 03:49:36 <jgarzik> doublec: target on namecoin is quite high apparently
289 2011-04-21 03:54:05 <Kiba> what will I do with 1274129 hashes per sect against 512?
290 2011-04-21 04:07:53 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r55 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs):
291 2011-04-21 04:08:59 <gjs278> what's bitcoinj
292 2011-04-21 04:10:01 <witten> gjs278: java implementation of bitcoin by a google dev
293 2011-04-21 04:10:05 <luke-jr> otg|Google Bitcoin client
294 2011-04-21 04:10:24 <witten> not official google release.. just a dev's 20% time project
295 2011-04-21 04:14:27 <gjs278> I don't have enough virtual memory leftover to run such a thing
296 2011-04-21 04:14:37 <gjs278> I'm sure it will only use 6gb after 20 minutes
297 2011-04-21 04:22:50 <RenaKunisaki> I'm wondering how feasible it is for a large attacker (say the US government) to gain >50% of the network's processing power by forcing people off the network
298 2011-04-21 04:23:14 <RenaKunisaki> get ISPs nationwide to start blocking Bitcoin or even disconnecting people entirely so that 50% is a smaller number
299 2011-04-21 04:23:50 <RenaKunisaki> or a virus that knocks everyone's nodes offline or gets them to stop processing
300 2011-04-21 04:24:40 <noagendamarket> we should point all the pools at the US gov and knock it offline if thats the case
301 2011-04-21 04:24:42 <noagendamarket> :)
302 2011-04-21 04:24:53 <noagendamarket> ddos ftw
303 2011-04-21 04:24:53 <RenaKunisaki> lol
304 2011-04-21 04:24:55 <noagendamarket> lol
305 2011-04-21 04:25:00 <noagendamarket> its only fair
306 2011-04-21 04:25:05 <RenaKunisaki> how do you communicate a mass DDoS if you're disconnected though
307 2011-04-21 04:25:10 <gjs278> well
308 2011-04-21 04:25:13 <noagendamarket> hrm
309 2011-04-21 04:25:19 <gjs278> I don't think isps would shutdown bitcoin connections
310 2011-04-21 04:25:26 <gjs278> they didnt' even shutdown connections to online poker
311 2011-04-21 04:25:28 <luke-jr> otg|lol
312 2011-04-21 04:25:32 <noagendamarket> loic
313 2011-04-21 04:25:53 <jgarzik> RenaKunisaki: transactions and block chain updates would leak out
314 2011-04-21 04:26:06 <luke-jr> otg|they block everything else...
315 2011-04-21 04:26:09 <gjs278> they didnt even shutdown liberty dollar websites
316 2011-04-21 04:26:14 <gjs278> and those were actually printed currency
317 2011-04-21 04:26:20 <gjs278> they just arrested the guy doing it
318 2011-04-21 04:26:25 <gjs278> and took all of his ron paul bucks
319 2011-04-21 04:27:00 <RenaKunisaki> yeah, well in cases like that it's easier to shut down the source
320 2011-04-21 04:27:08 <gjs278> liberty dollars was actually quite the scam
321 2011-04-21 04:27:12 <RenaKunisaki> and people would be pretty upset if you just started disconnecting them for no good reason
322 2011-04-21 04:27:15 <gjs278> it was backed by silver but you didn't get the full amount
323 2011-04-21 04:27:21 <gjs278> you'd get like $16 out of $20 or something dumb
324 2011-04-21 04:27:50 <gjs278> liberty dollars is the best project ever because is scammed people trying to stick it to the man
325 2011-04-21 04:27:52 <RenaKunisaki> but I'm thinking of a theoretical situation where a tyrannical dictator wants to attack the network and doesn't give a damn about your freedoms and rights
326 2011-04-21 04:27:58 <gjs278> I'm not
327 2011-04-21 04:28:23 <noagendamarket> have they blocked bittorrent yet ?
328 2011-04-21 04:28:51 <gjs278> only if you search for freedom.torrent
329 2011-04-21 04:29:27 <gjs278> I hate the youtube page for video deleted or whatever
330 2011-04-21 04:29:28 <gjs278> so much
331 2011-04-21 04:29:49 <gjs278> that smiley face makes me want to punch my monitor
332 2011-04-21 04:29:55 <gjs278> REMOVE THE THUMBNAIL IF THE VIDEO IS NO GOOD GOOGLE
333 2011-04-21 04:30:12 <gjs278> and why is everything whited out
334 2011-04-21 04:30:20 <gjs278> it makes it looklike my browser didnt finish loading the age
335 2011-04-21 04:30:31 <RenaKunisaki> hmm, couple times I saw videos get "removed" on Youtube
336 2011-04-21 04:30:38 <RenaKunisaki> but really just the ID changed
337 2011-04-21 04:30:41 <gjs278> like this
338 2011-04-21 04:30:42 <gjs278> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npZ6SeWJR_I&
339 2011-04-21 04:30:44 <gjs278> wtf
340 2011-04-21 04:30:46 <gjs278> why all the white space
341 2011-04-21 04:30:49 <gjs278> what did I do to deserve that
342 2011-04-21 04:30:56 <RenaKunisaki> you'd bookmark it, have it in a playlist or whatever and you come back later and it says video removed
343 2011-04-21 04:31:15 <RenaKunisaki> but later, you stumble upon the exact same video, with all the same comments (even ones you left) on it, under a different ID
344 2011-04-21 04:31:17 <gjs278> I've had that happen for some guy who recorded himself playing all of metal gear 4
345 2011-04-21 04:31:19 <gjs278> well
346 2011-04-21 04:31:21 <gjs278> every metal gear
347 2011-04-21 04:31:25 <gjs278> but he got removed because he recorded 4
348 2011-04-21 04:31:33 <gjs278> I never found it again though
349 2011-04-21 04:32:11 <gjs278> except some hero recorded himself doing it again on justin.tv
350 2011-04-21 04:32:22 <gjs278> and I was able to retrieve all 20 hours of it through their archives
351 2011-04-21 04:42:42 <sacarlson> my new proto bitcoin seems to be finaly working.  I will be distributing a procedure in my next git release that will include a simple method to create new bitcoin proto coins without the need to recompile,  this version will also allow you to transact on different coins without recompile
352 2011-04-21 04:44:31 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik * reb0030412834 pushpool/db-mysql.c: db-mysql: automatically reconnect, if server cxn dies. also, enable zlib. http://tinyurl.com/3ujnn62
353 2011-04-21 04:44:33 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik * rf2856225b8c9 pushpool/configure.ac: Version 0.3. http://tinyurl.com/6egcvwr
354 2011-04-21 04:44:35 <sacarlson> I plan to later modify the first 4 leters of an address to identify to the client software and the human looking at the number what network is needed to use to transact
355 2011-04-21 04:48:29 <gjs278> pushpool is ridiculous, don't try and name projects after a method of setting up fans
356 2011-04-21 04:55:20 <epicurus> hey
357 2011-04-21 04:55:46 <epicurus> big  crowd here
358 2011-04-21 04:56:43 <gjs278> asl
359 2011-04-21 04:57:36 <epicurus> really?
360 2011-04-21 05:03:52 <FreeMoney> mtgox error?
361 2011-04-21 05:05:12 <lfm_> ;;bc,mtgox
362 2011-04-21 05:05:13 <gribble> Lost connection to MySQL server at 'reading initial communication packet', system error: 111
363 2011-04-21 05:05:24 <ArtForz> yup, mtgox is down
364 2011-04-21 05:08:21 <topi`> ouch
365 2011-04-21 05:12:39 <ArtForz> and back up
366 2011-04-21 05:13:40 <lfm_> ;;bc,mtgox
367 2011-04-21 05:13:41 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.1869,"low":1.13,"vol":16748,"buy":1.1411,"sell":1.15,"last":1.1411}}
368 2011-04-21 05:16:36 <dotblank> Why is the payload message size packet little endian?
369 2011-04-21 05:17:13 <ArtForz> ?
370 2011-04-21 05:17:19 <ArtForz> pretty much everything is LE
371 2011-04-21 05:18:03 <dotblank> not for network traffic usually
372 2011-04-21 05:18:12 <ArtForz> it is for bitcoin
373 2011-04-21 05:18:17 <dotblank> ughs.. writing a client for ARM so i'm going to have to convert them
374 2011-04-21 05:18:56 <ArtForz> I'm pretty sure I know, wrote a p2p packet parser/builder in python
375 2011-04-21 05:19:33 <sacarlson> ok this is what I got so far to document creating new genesis block coins https://github.com/sacarlson/bitcoin
376 2011-04-21 05:20:01 <dotblank> just to make sure.. no one has created a bitcoin c library yet
377 2011-04-21 05:20:48 <ArtForz> I don't think so
378 2011-04-21 05:21:16 <dotblank> ok good.. I think I might write one in c using libevent
379 2011-04-21 05:26:13 <dotblank> "The Internet Protocol defines big-endian as the standard network byte order used for all numeric values in the packet headers and by many higher level protocols and file formats that are designed for use over IP."
380 2011-04-21 05:26:40 <dotblank> have to rewrite ntohs and the like
381 2011-04-21 05:27:11 <ArtForz> ?
382 2011-04-21 05:27:37 <ArtForz> whatever
383 2011-04-21 05:27:39 <Diablo-D3> oh and btw
384 2011-04-21 05:27:42 <Diablo-D3> my mining protocol
385 2011-04-21 05:27:45 <Diablo-D3> will be in big endian
386 2011-04-21 05:27:49 <dotblank> :)
387 2011-04-21 05:28:00 <ArtForz> great, so 99% of miners have to byteswap shit for no reason.
388 2011-04-21 05:28:15 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: no
389 2011-04-21 05:28:17 <Diablo-D3> on my miner
390 2011-04-21 05:28:20 <Diablo-D3> which is x86
391 2011-04-21 05:28:20 <dotblank> its x86 that has to byteswap for no reason
392 2011-04-21 05:28:22 <Diablo-D3> I have to byteswap
393 2011-04-21 05:28:33 <ArtForz> dotblank: name current LE PC architectures
394 2011-04-21 05:28:46 <Diablo-D3> because bitcoin is outputting _fucking little endian _hex text__
395 2011-04-21 05:29:14 <dotblank> x86 is old
396 2011-04-21 05:29:31 <dotblank> they have been stuck with it for awhile
397 2011-04-21 05:29:45 <ArtForz> what does that have to do with anything?
398 2011-04-21 05:30:11 <Diablo-D3> arm is little endian as well
399 2011-04-21 05:30:15 <Diablo-D3> as is mips
400 2011-04-21 05:30:27 <ArtForz> isnt arm endian-switchable?
401 2011-04-21 05:30:27 <Diablo-D3> the only common BE arch anymore is powerpc
402 2011-04-21 05:30:31 <ArtForz> mips is for sure
403 2011-04-21 05:30:37 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: switch at fab time
404 2011-04-21 05:30:42 <Diablo-D3> no one fabs BE arms
405 2011-04-21 05:30:59 <Diablo-D3> many mips fabs are runtime switchable
406 2011-04-21 05:31:02 <dotblank> PowerPC is
407 2011-04-21 05:31:04 <Diablo-D3> but they all run in LE
408 2011-04-21 05:31:54 <ArtForz> and what's powerPCs market share? 0.2%?
409 2011-04-21 05:32:00 <dotblank> sucks tho because java is also BE
410 2011-04-21 05:32:11 <ArtForz> well, that's suns fault
411 2011-04-21 05:32:12 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: actually quite large
412 2011-04-21 05:32:14 <dotblank> so stuff sent in java is BE when serialized
413 2011-04-21 05:32:24 <dotblank> isn't the ps3 powerpc?
414 2011-04-21 05:32:30 <Diablo-D3> its popular in automotive design
415 2011-04-21 05:32:34 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: "no", its a cell
416 2011-04-21 05:32:41 <ArtForz> and how many of those are running bitcoin clients?
417 2011-04-21 05:32:41 <dotblank> ah
418 2011-04-21 05:32:42 <Diablo-D3> although its a very cut down cell, its almost useless
419 2011-04-21 05:33:11 <Diablo-D3> actual cells == dual full G5 cores + all 8 SPEs, and they almost always are sold in dual and quad socket boxes
420 2011-04-21 05:33:26 <ArtForz> yeah, and they're also way too fucking expensive
421 2011-04-21 05:33:53 <Diablo-D3> ps3 cells == a very custom "G3" that has instruction reordering removed, most of the cache, no altivec, cache prefetch is gone, etc etc
422 2011-04-21 05:34:00 <Diablo-D3> one of the SPEs is disabled, and another is taken by the OS
423 2011-04-21 05:34:15 <ArtForz> cell was pretty fast and innovative. back in 2003.
424 2011-04-21 05:34:41 <Diablo-D3> the PS3's single PPC core is about as fast as a normal G3 @ 600mhz
425 2011-04-21 05:34:45 <Diablo-D3> its clocked at 3.2ghz
426 2011-04-21 05:34:53 <Diablo-D3> thats how much they fucked you
427 2011-04-21 05:35:03 <Diablo-D3> normal cells are dual full G5's at 3.2ghz
428 2011-04-21 05:35:04 <dotblank> lol thats bad
429 2011-04-21 05:35:19 <ArtForz> yeah, they crippled it pretty badly
430 2011-04-21 05:35:19 <dotblank> but I thought the SPEs were goood for vector calculation
431 2011-04-21 05:35:24 <ArtForz> yes, they are
432 2011-04-21 05:35:30 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: "yes", but realize theres not much of them
433 2011-04-21 05:35:34 <ArtForz> so is SSE/AVX
434 2011-04-21 05:35:41 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: they're really DSPs.
435 2011-04-21 05:35:51 <ArtForz> a cell has 8 SPEs, each 128 bit wide single-issue
436 2011-04-21 05:36:15 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: a 5870 would be, oh, 400 SPEs.
437 2011-04-21 05:36:25 <ArtForz> a modern desktop quadcore has the same number of 128-bit sse units
438 2011-04-21 05:36:36 <dotblank> well I wasn't going to get a ps3 anyways..
439 2011-04-21 05:36:50 <dotblank> oh now I remember its the xbox that runs ppc
440 2011-04-21 05:36:54 <Diablo-D3> xbox 360
441 2011-04-21 05:36:56 <Diablo-D3> not the original
442 2011-04-21 05:36:59 <dotblank> yea
443 2011-04-21 05:37:06 <ArtForz> 360 has some weird tri-ppc core
444 2011-04-21 05:37:07 <Diablo-D3> xbox 360 has a custom PPC chip thats tricore
445 2011-04-21 05:37:19 <Diablo-D3> the third is clocked lower and is used by OS and background tasks
446 2011-04-21 05:37:48 <Diablo-D3> raw processing power in the 360 vs the ps3's cell, spes included, is about the same
447 2011-04-21 05:37:57 <Diablo-D3> the only time SPEs shine is on SPE-oriented tasks
448 2011-04-21 05:38:04 <dotblank> those console are starting to seem a bit dated
449 2011-04-21 05:38:21 <Diablo-D3> the 360 has better GPU power... but its hard to tell because all the "hard" GPU work on a PS3 is done in SPEs
450 2011-04-21 05:38:21 <dotblank> consoles*
451 2011-04-21 05:38:46 <Diablo-D3> the 360 is more simply designed and cheaper
452 2011-04-21 05:38:59 <Diablo-D3> but they're both piles of shit design wise
453 2011-04-21 05:39:06 <Diablo-D3> I would have never done half the shit either company did
454 2011-04-21 05:39:31 <dotblank> I think its fairly funny how the ps3 is getting torn apart by hackers
455 2011-04-21 05:39:59 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: except thats mainly just stupid bs.
456 2011-04-21 05:40:02 <dotblank> especially how the function for the random number gen the eliptical enryption of the private keys were the same
457 2011-04-21 05:40:05 <Diablo-D3> its not being "torn apart"
458 2011-04-21 05:40:18 <topi`> if there would be a modern CELL design with more SPEs and stuff, it could rock
459 2011-04-21 05:40:19 <Diablo-D3> theres no "attack"
460 2011-04-21 05:40:29 <Diablo-D3> topi`: except Cell IS modern
461 2011-04-21 05:40:34 <dotblank> well its sony being stupid
462 2011-04-21 05:40:37 <Diablo-D3> but IBM has no interest in desktop chips
463 2011-04-21 05:40:50 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: the real problem is the hypervisor is not designed for a security role
464 2011-04-21 05:41:15 <topi`> dotblank: did you say you have a big-endian ARM?
465 2011-04-21 05:41:27 <Diablo-D3> if the hypervisor nx'ed all of its writable pages and used hardware worx support and forced it
466 2011-04-21 05:41:32 <Diablo-D3> then none of this would have happened
467 2011-04-21 05:41:36 <topi`> all my ARMs are running little-endian, and debian/unstable
468 2011-04-21 05:41:50 <Diablo-D3> the failure to randomize problem? no one would have EVER known
469 2011-04-21 05:42:06 <Diablo-D3> so sony's failure was exactly what I described
470 2011-04-21 05:42:12 <Diablo-D3> all other security bugs would have never been known.
471 2011-04-21 05:42:29 <ArtForz> pure speculation
472 2011-04-21 05:42:33 <Diablo-D3> ALL security is weak... the only way to be secure is defense in depth.
473 2011-04-21 05:42:37 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: not at all
474 2011-04-21 05:42:47 <Diablo-D3> they found out about the key because they were buffer overflowing shit
475 2011-04-21 05:42:59 <Diablo-D3> and inserted an executable payload that dumped the whole ram
476 2011-04-21 05:43:16 <ArtForz> and... dumping ram externally is impossible, right?
477 2011-04-21 05:43:18 <dotblank> topi`, not really.. but it might be used on some embedded BE arm devices
478 2011-04-21 05:43:19 <Diablo-D3> this cannot happen on enforced worx.
479 2011-04-21 05:43:35 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: with the way the hardware is designed, basically
480 2011-04-21 05:44:09 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: at least, it would have taken several more years
481 2011-04-21 05:44:19 <Diablo-D3> like I said, all security is weak.
482 2011-04-21 05:44:24 <dotblank> I also heard they didn't use the non executable memory feature
483 2011-04-21 05:44:25 <gjs278> hack my irc account
484 2011-04-21 05:44:28 <gjs278> right now
485 2011-04-21 05:44:33 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: nx and worx, I already said those
486 2011-04-21 05:44:43 <Diablo-D3> nx == no execute
487 2011-04-21 05:44:55 <Diablo-D3> worx = write or execute, cant be both
488 2011-04-21 05:45:13 <dotblank> ah, I knew nx but not worx
489 2011-04-21 05:46:20 <dotblank> would you consider gpg weak?
490 2011-04-21 05:46:44 <dotblank> or pub/priv keys in general
491 2011-04-21 05:46:49 <Diablo-D3> not really.
492 2011-04-21 05:47:38 <dotblank> how does bittorent handle collisions
493 2011-04-21 05:48:00 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt
494 2011-04-21 05:48:13 <dotblank> when you generate a recieving address does it retro actively check to make sure it hasn't been used
495 2011-04-21 05:48:23 <Diablo-D3> I think you meant bitcoin.
496 2011-04-21 05:48:30 <dotblank> oh yea whoops
497 2011-04-21 05:48:58 <ArtForz> 2 random 256 bit ECDSA privkeys colliding, yeah, totally likely
498 2011-04-21 05:48:58 <Diablo-D3> if you end up with two private keys that match the same public key, you are now a VERY rich man
499 2011-04-21 05:49:21 <dotblank> lol
500 2011-04-21 05:49:33 <Diablo-D3> ECDSA does not have any known attacks
501 2011-04-21 05:49:48 <dotblank> well with quantum computing...
502 2011-04-21 05:50:04 <Diablo-D3> quantum computing only lets you guess large numbers of combinations simultaniously
503 2011-04-21 05:50:09 <ArtForz> with quantum computing any current public key system breaks down
504 2011-04-21 05:50:16 <dotblank> right
505 2011-04-21 05:50:17 <Diablo-D3> ie, you brute force derive the private key
506 2011-04-21 05:50:20 <Diablo-D3> thats not an attack
507 2011-04-21 05:50:33 <ArtForz> and last time I checked, no one even managed to keep 8 qbits coherent for long enough to do any useful work with
508 2011-04-21 05:50:35 <Diablo-D3> an attack is where you could actually shortcut pure bruteforce
509 2011-04-21 05:50:35 <dotblank> and if a gov. develops it.. they could basically seize control of any such network
510 2011-04-21 05:50:51 <dotblank> well its a big IF
511 2011-04-21 05:50:57 <Diablo-D3> if the gov attacks it, every single government would immediately launch nukes
512 2011-04-21 05:50:59 <Diablo-D3> and if they doint
513 2011-04-21 05:51:04 <Diablo-D3> every single bank would sue
514 2011-04-21 05:51:23 <dotblank> well it would be secret cia shit.. how would you prove something liek that
515 2011-04-21 05:51:24 <ArtForz> and if the sun explodes tomorrow, we're all dead
516 2011-04-21 05:51:34 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: cia? no
517 2011-04-21 05:51:36 <Diablo-D3> nsa? yes.
518 2011-04-21 05:51:42 <Diablo-D3> and all the research is theoretical anyhow
519 2011-04-21 05:51:51 <Diablo-D3> quantum computing is another 50 years off
520 2011-04-21 05:52:04 <Diablo-D3> its easier, and cheaper, to just go kill people in person to make things stop.
521 2011-04-21 05:52:24 <ArtForz> well, ibm did manage to factor 15 :P
522 2011-04-21 06:03:05 <sipa> ArtForz: to get the other guys's savings, you only need a collision of the 160-bit hash, actually :)
523 2011-04-21 06:03:11 <ArtForz> no
524 2011-04-21 06:03:17 <sipa> except if it's an unspent generation
525 2011-04-21 06:03:25 <ArtForz> how do you generate the required signature?
526 2011-04-21 06:03:30 <sipa> which uses public keys in the txout
527 2011-04-21 06:03:32 <gjs278> by hand
528 2011-04-21 06:03:36 <ArtForz> if you have the wrong privkey?
529 2011-04-21 06:03:42 <sipa> the signature also contains the public key
530 2011-04-21 06:03:51 <sipa> the txout only says which hash the public key should match
531 2011-04-21 06:04:00 <sipa> (iirc)
532 2011-04-21 06:04:11 <ArtForz> oh, right
533 2011-04-21 06:04:21 <ArtForz> yeah, in that case you 'only' need to collide ripemd160
534 2011-04-21 06:04:29 <gjs278> how long will that take
535 2011-04-21 06:04:57 <sipa> ArtForz: hey, that's still 2^48 times easier
536 2011-04-21 06:05:47 <sipa> actually, you don't just want collisions, those are useless
537 2011-04-21 06:05:51 <ArtForz> oh, right
538 2011-04-21 06:06:08 <sipa> you want collision with a specific key (or set of millions of keys, maybe, but not any)
539 2011-04-21 06:06:23 <ArtForz> then... about 2**159
540 2011-04-21 06:06:26 <gjs278> if we took all of the power being using on bitcoin mining right now and used it to collidge someone's ripemd160 account, how long it would it take
541 2011-04-21 06:06:43 <gjs278> how long would*
542 2011-04-21 06:06:44 <dotblank> Oh another question.. is openssl/bitcoin limited by international trade regulations regarding the transport of encrypted materials/algorithms?
543 2011-04-21 06:07:11 <gjs278> nobody abides by those rules
544 2011-04-21 06:07:15 <sipa> making the completely wrong assumption that a bitcoin hash takes as long as a privkey->pubkey->hash conversion, and we have 1 million useful keys
545 2011-04-21 06:07:23 <edcba> it's not encrpytion it's authentication anyway
546 2011-04-21 06:07:36 <sipa> there is absolutely no encryption in bitcoin
547 2011-04-21 06:07:52 <dotblank> well the public/private key pairing
548 2011-04-21 06:07:56 <ArtForz> sipa: I think we can assume the number of keys that hash to the same hash is pretty evenly distributed
549 2011-04-21 06:07:59 <gjs278> I just want to know if you could like convince a pool to just try and steal mystery miner's wallet or something
550 2011-04-21 06:08:08 <edcba> lol
551 2011-04-21 06:08:09 <gjs278> by putting the power into that md160 crap
552 2011-04-21 06:08:10 <edcba> no
553 2011-04-21 06:08:23 <ArtForz> so it's really just "try random values until you find one that hashes to X"
554 2011-04-21 06:08:32 <sipa> yup
555 2011-04-21 06:08:37 <ArtForz> which for a 160 bit hash is... 2**159 tries average
556 2011-04-21 06:08:42 <sipa> and that'd take about 10^22 years, given above scenario
557 2011-04-21 06:08:44 <dotblank> it should get progressively easier to collide as time progresses
558 2011-04-21 06:08:51 <sipa> (if there are a million valid keys)
559 2011-04-21 06:09:01 <dotblank> ah yea
560 2011-04-21 06:09:05 <gjs278> 10^22 years even with 500 ghash going?
561 2011-04-21 06:09:12 <sipa> 700 Ghash/s
562 2011-04-21 06:09:14 <ArtForz> that sounds low
563 2011-04-21 06:09:15 <gjs278> *convert 500 ghash into whatever*
564 2011-04-21 06:09:16 <edcba> calc
565 2011-04-21 06:09:30 <sipa> but privkey->pubkey convertion is a lot slower than a sha256 hash, i believe
566 2011-04-21 06:09:34 <edcba> 2**159 is about 10**50
567 2011-04-21 06:09:37 <gjs278> yeah
568 2011-04-21 06:09:53 <gjs278> oh well, I guess he keeps his wallet
569 2011-04-21 06:09:54 <dotblank> I don't think so much about the actually brute forcing
570 2011-04-21 06:10:04 <edcba> divided by 10**12 h/s
571 2011-04-21 06:10:08 <dotblank> perhaps a better approach is by messing with the RNG
572 2011-04-21 06:10:11 <edcba> 10**38 s
573 2011-04-21 06:10:12 <gribble> 2^159 = 7.30750819 * 10^(47)
574 2011-04-21 06:10:12 <lfm_> ;;calc 2^159
575 2011-04-21 06:10:20 <gjs278> but... towards the end when all of these coins are already generated
576 2011-04-21 06:10:28 <gjs278> would it make sense to just try and steal people's wallets
577 2011-04-21 06:10:30 <gjs278> instead of mining
578 2011-04-21 06:10:34 <edcba> no
579 2011-04-21 06:10:34 <gjs278> or is that impossible
580 2011-04-21 06:10:38 <edcba> impossible
581 2011-04-21 06:10:41 <gjs278> alright
582 2011-04-21 06:10:46 <dotblank> the difficulty of that would be far too great
583 2011-04-21 06:11:31 <dotblank> I think messing with the random number generator would be easier then cracking that hash
584 2011-04-21 06:11:39 <gribble> (2^159) / 1e12 = 7.30750819 * 10^(35)
585 2011-04-21 06:11:39 <lfm_> ;;calc 2^159/1e12
586 2011-04-21 06:11:41 <dotblank> well brute forcing it
587 2011-04-21 06:12:00 <ArtForz> iirc we use openssls rng
588 2011-04-21 06:12:20 <ArtForz> break that and you pwned the internet.
589 2011-04-21 06:12:42 <dotblank> I egt lots of openssl updates...
590 2011-04-21 06:12:44 <dotblank> get*
591 2011-04-21 06:13:34 <ArtForz> and that has any relevance to anything how?
592 2011-04-21 06:14:05 <dotblank> they are mostly security updates.. so it seems openssl isnt perfect
593 2011-04-21 06:14:18 <sipa> unless it's something like that debian bug some time ago
594 2011-04-21 06:14:20 <edcba> ok let's see...
595 2011-04-21 06:14:22 <gjs278> every security update by openssl is probably just for theoretical shit
596 2011-04-21 06:14:25 <ArtForz> yep, that would be... bad
597 2011-04-21 06:14:43 <edcba> http://www.openssl.org/news/
598 2011-04-21 06:14:44 <ersi> gjs278: unless some dipshit commented out the PRNG
599 2011-04-21 06:14:48 <ersi> ;D
600 2011-04-21 06:14:58 <ArtForz> lol, yeah
601 2011-04-21 06:15:36 <edcba> mostly buffer overruns/crashs
602 2011-04-21 06:15:49 <ArtForz> http://xkcd.com/221/
603 2011-04-21 06:16:03 <sipa> approximately that, indeed
604 2011-04-21 06:16:17 <sipa> it still had the full 65536 possible outputs per key size
605 2011-04-21 06:16:27 <edcba> maybe we should save the seed on rom
606 2011-04-21 06:16:44 <sipa> it's sure make the NSA's job easier
607 2011-04-21 06:16:53 <ArtForz> just store the key in WOM
608 2011-04-21 06:17:03 <gjs278> store the key on a sticky note
609 2011-04-21 06:17:11 <RenaKunisaki> store it under the welcome mat
610 2011-04-21 06:17:17 <sipa> i suggest using 42 as seed
611 2011-04-21 06:17:44 <gjs278> 42X8
612 2011-04-21 06:18:22 <sipa> Trying to come up with a significant number to search for, I thought of 42 (the answer to life, the universe, and everything in Hitchhikers's Guide to the Galaxy.) 42 would be way too common of course, so I went for 424242. Came back that this shows up at position 242423. Add one (for the decimal point, I lamely rationalize here) and you get 242424, the reverse of the original input. Now that's meaningful... or something.
613 2011-04-21 06:18:33 <sipa> Amusingly enough, the entire string returned is 242424242. If you disregard either of the ending twos, you find that it's the same position at which you find 42424242.
614 2011-04-21 06:18:37 <sipa> http://www.angio.net/pi/piquery
615 2011-04-21 06:18:56 <gjs278> don't look into pi too hard
616 2011-04-21 06:19:03 <gjs278> you might end up putting a drill into your head
617 2011-04-21 06:19:37 <edcba> :)
618 2011-04-21 06:20:47 <lfm_> so something wrong with /dev/urandom ?
619 2011-04-21 06:20:58 <sipa> no
620 2011-04-21 06:21:07 <RenaKunisaki> http://www.xkcd.com/10/
621 2011-04-21 06:22:55 <gjs278> /dev/random is better, just move your mouse a bit more
622 2011-04-21 06:23:09 <gjs278> you have to have dedication to be truly random
623 2011-04-21 06:23:16 <lfm_> if you got all the time in the world
624 2011-04-21 06:24:03 <gjs278> grep -i help_me_obi-wan_kenobi /dev/urandom
625 2011-04-21 06:24:07 <gjs278> how long will that take
626 2011-04-21 06:24:35 <gjs278> I put -i so that should speed it up a bit
627 2011-04-21 06:24:57 <gribble> 256^26 = 4.11376139 * 10^(62)
628 2011-04-21 06:24:57 <lfm_> ;;calc 256^26
629 2011-04-21 06:25:11 <sipa> one in 365375409332725729550921208179070754913983135744
630 2011-04-21 06:25:18 <devrandom_> :)
631 2011-04-21 06:25:29 <sipa> 22 characters, 18 case insensitive
632 2011-04-21 06:25:35 <gribble> (256^22) / (2^18) = 3.65375409 * 10^(47)
633 2011-04-21 06:25:35 <sipa> ;;calc 256^22/2^18
634 2011-04-21 06:25:56 <gjs278> never tell me the odds
635 2011-04-21 06:26:13 <sipa> to know the speed, you need the generation rate
636 2011-04-21 06:26:34 <lfm_> ya highly machine dependant
637 2011-04-21 06:27:12 <gjs278> I'll start it now, let you guys know if it ever hits
638 2011-04-21 06:30:01 <Lis> explain please, if I see http://blockexplorer.com/q/hextarget 000000000000B5AC000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 if I get ./bitcoind getwork "target" : "000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000acb5000000000000" Why the difference?
639 2011-04-21 06:30:26 <mrb_> endianness
640 2011-04-21 06:30:27 <gjs278> you left your caps lock key on
641 2011-04-21 06:30:38 <ArtForz> blockexplorer is normal hex notation, bitcoin getwork is LE
642 2011-04-21 06:30:41 <lfm_> its called endianness
643 2011-04-21 06:31:09 <Lis> LE?
644 2011-04-21 06:31:14 <joepie91> how do I calculate the estimated time for a block again?
645 2011-04-21 06:31:18 <joepie91> with 81.98 mh
646 2011-04-21 06:31:19 <joepie91> :P
647 2011-04-21 06:31:27 <mtrlt> little-endian
648 2011-04-21 06:32:05 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calc 81980
649 2011-04-21 06:32:06 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 81980 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 7 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, 55 minutes, and 29 seconds
650 2011-04-21 06:32:06 <lfm_> multiply or dividr or something by 2^32 and or 600
651 2011-04-21 06:32:17 <joepie91> ah, thanks
652 2011-04-21 06:32:44 <Lis> mtrlt, how to calculate LE of target?
653 2011-04-21 06:32:50 <gjs278> flip it
654 2011-04-21 06:32:55 <ArtForz> byteswap it
655 2011-04-21 06:32:59 <mtrlt> just read the bytes from the end instead of the start
656 2011-04-21 06:33:04 <mtrlt> or vice versa
657 2011-04-21 06:33:05 <RenaKunisaki> bop it
658 2011-04-21 06:33:09 <gjs278> twist it
659 2011-04-21 06:33:10 <gjs278> pull it
660 2011-04-21 06:33:12 <gjs278> bop it
661 2011-04-21 06:33:14 <gjs278> bop it
662 2011-04-21 06:33:16 <gjs278> bop it
663 2011-04-21 06:33:17 <gjs278> twist it
664 2011-04-21 06:33:21 <gjs278> OWACHGWW
665 2011-04-21 06:33:24 <lfm_> suck it , blow it
666 2011-04-21 06:34:05 <Lis> mtrlt, o! thanks)
667 2011-04-21 06:35:20 <ArtForz> meh, missed a perfect opportunity for a technologic ref
668 2011-04-21 06:41:46 <Diablo-D3> I thought thats what they were trying to fail at.
669 2011-04-21 06:56:50 <Lis> mtrlt, when make a binary bin(0x00acb500) zero_1010110010110101_zero bin(0x00b5ac00) zero_10110101101011_zero if turn, results have not been
670 2011-04-21 06:57:13 <mtrlt> i don't understand
671 2011-04-21 06:59:16 <ArtForz> engrish gibberish?
672 2011-04-21 06:59:17 <Lis> mtrlt, if i wont make LE i must read the end before target
673 2011-04-21 07:00:10 <Lis> sorry my english is not very good
674 2011-04-21 07:02:06 <Lis> if i have target 0xf0 b11110000 -> make LE b00001111 0x0f
675 2011-04-21 07:02:32 <Lis> is this correct?
676 2011-04-21 07:02:34 <mtrlt> no
677 2011-04-21 07:02:39 <Lis> 0_>
678 2011-04-21 07:02:44 <mtrlt> 0xf0 -> 0xf0
679 2011-04-21 07:02:50 <mtrlt> 0xaabb -> 0xbbaa
680 2011-04-21 07:02:55 <Lis> >: >:
681 2011-04-21 07:02:56 <mtrlt> like. abcd -> cdab
682 2011-04-21 07:03:12 <Diablo-D3> endianness changes ordering of pairs of bytes
683 2011-04-21 07:03:28 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt flip bits.
684 2011-04-21 07:03:34 <mtrlt> umm no, in this case the order of all bytes must be changed
685 2011-04-21 07:03:36 <mtrlt> not just paris
686 2011-04-21 07:03:37 <mtrlt> pairs
687 2011-04-21 07:03:50 <Diablo-D3> mtrlt: a long is a pair of 8 bytes.
688 2011-04-21 07:04:31 <mtrlt> w7e
689 2011-04-21 07:04:32 <Lis> Thanks, I understood
690 2011-04-21 07:04:33 <mtrlt> w/e
691 2011-04-21 07:04:37 <mtrlt> np
692 2011-04-21 07:12:32 <mrb_> it depends
693 2011-04-21 07:12:57 <sipa> a long is at least 4 bytes, i believe
694 2011-04-21 07:13:05 <BurtyB> well yes, but in my world they mostly are :)
695 2011-04-21 07:17:34 <mrb_> C89 says a long must be >= 4 bytes. On 32-bit platforms it is always 4 bytes. On 64-bit platforms, it is either 4 (Linux) or 8 bytes (Windows).
696 2011-04-21 07:17:58 <mrb_> erm. Linux=8 Windows=4
697 2011-04-21 07:19:14 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r56 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/BlockChain.java: Split the BlockChain.add method out into some smaller functions.
698 2011-04-21 07:22:47 <gjs278> Diablo-D3 your miner has officially matched poclbm now that I'm using stream 2.1
699 2011-04-21 07:23:39 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: yup, thought so
700 2011-04-21 07:29:35 <gjs278> Diablo-D3 is it possible to change the frames on the fly in your miner once it starts hashing
701 2011-04-21 07:29:54 <gjs278> I tried it with poclbm and I could not get it to accept a new frame value mid mining
702 2011-04-21 07:30:10 <gjs278> without code completely stopping it and starting it again
703 2011-04-21 07:30:58 <gjs278> my goal is to have it setup so -f60 is my default, but if DPMS kicks in and shuts off my monitor, it puts me to -f1
704 2011-04-21 07:34:39 <Diablo-D3> not really worth it.
705 2011-04-21 07:34:45 <Diablo-D3> you're not gaining much by doing that.
706 2011-04-21 07:35:50 <gjs278> I need my megahashes at any cost
707 2011-04-21 07:37:36 <Diablo-D3> yeah, and the difference is probably very small
708 2011-04-21 07:39:02 <gjs278> I get anywhere from 4 - 6
709 2011-04-21 07:39:13 <Diablo-D3> have you been timing it right?
710 2011-04-21 07:39:23 <Diablo-D3> you need to let it run for at least 5 minutes and read the second number
711 2011-04-21 07:39:55 <gjs278> my life is too fast paced to read anything except the first number after a minute
712 2011-04-21 07:40:23 <Diablo-D3> the first number only tells you the current speed
713 2011-04-21 07:40:27 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt tell you the historic speed
714 2011-04-21 07:41:11 <gjs278> its good enough to compare though for a little bit
715 2011-04-21 07:41:41 <gjs278> I'll do the real test soon
716 2011-04-21 07:41:43 <Diablo-D3> not really.
717 2011-04-21 07:41:49 <Diablo-D3> the second number is benchmarking for a reason
718 2011-04-21 08:03:28 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: could you more clearly explain the low-level vs high-level poll.  I think some people don't get it
719 2011-04-21 08:03:47 <BlueMatt> also, luke-jr, could you add the ability to change one's vote I think that gives a much more accurate poll
720 2011-04-21 08:31:06 <BlueMatt> why are the mac build files not in the git repo, why does one have to download them separately?
721 2011-04-21 08:31:08 <mizerydearia> Does anyone live in or nearby San Francisco and is up for idea of a Bitcoin micro-convention for a day; April 30th, 2011?
722 2011-04-21 08:32:33 <mizerydearia> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6237
723 2011-04-21 08:43:32 <topi`> WHAT, gavin gave an interview to Forbes ??
724 2011-04-21 08:44:23 <BlueMatt> topi`: yea
725 2011-04-21 08:44:26 <BlueMatt> :)
726 2011-04-21 08:44:54 <BlueMatt> he casually said yesterday "oh the article is up on forbes"
727 2011-04-21 08:45:01 <topi`> I missed that
728 2011-04-21 08:45:09 <topi`> I'm so rarely on IRC nowadays :/
729 2011-04-21 08:45:27 <BlueMatt> btc is growing too quick to keep up with it all anymore
730 2011-04-21 08:45:59 <topi`> we need more white papers and analysis and so on
731 2011-04-21 08:46:13 <topi`> so that we can prove bitcoin is *not* a bubble but has a *real* value in many niches
732 2011-04-21 08:46:24 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: lol yeah
733 2011-04-21 08:46:38 <Blitzboom> wtf happened. were on two major magazines now
734 2011-04-21 08:46:43 <Blitzboom> no, three
735 2011-04-21 08:46:57 <BlueMatt> *on two large news websites
736 2011-04-21 08:47:00 <BlueMatt> not in the magazines
737 2011-04-21 08:47:04 <BlueMatt> and whats the 3rd?
738 2011-04-21 08:47:08 <Blitzboom> magazines websites
739 2011-04-21 08:47:17 <Blitzboom> that was the atlantic
740 2011-04-21 08:47:19 <jaromil> just found out http://tcatm.github.com/bitcoin-js-remote/
741 2011-04-21 08:47:27 <jaromil> simply gorgeous, cheers tcatm
742 2011-04-21 08:47:34 <Blitzboom> although it wasnt only about bitcoin: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/04/how-to-start-your-own-private-currency/73327/
743 2011-04-21 08:47:38 <BlueMatt> jaromil: yea that is all I use, really well put together
744 2011-04-21 08:47:47 <jaromil> big up
745 2011-04-21 08:47:48 <BlueMatt> oh yea, I saw that one
746 2011-04-21 08:48:02 <Blitzboom> things are really happening fast
747 2011-04-21 08:48:06 <Blitzboom> economists debating bitcoin etc.
748 2011-04-21 08:48:08 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: yep :)
749 2011-04-21 08:48:18 <jaromil> anyone here can run a compiler on OSX to test a bitcoind build?
750 2011-04-21 08:48:38 <jaromil> i mean an apple with Xcode and macports
751 2011-04-21 08:48:49 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: though I highly prefer merchants before economists start deciding btc sucks, but either way media is good
752 2011-04-21 08:49:17 <Blitzboom> agree, we still dont have any good shop accepting it &
753 2011-04-21 08:49:33 <BlueMatt> jaromil: my osx vm (vmware with a mod to enable it) doesnt appear to be working anymore and my macbook is old and SLOW (plus its disk is corrupted somehow and it takes like an hour to boot)
754 2011-04-21 08:49:44 <Blitzboom> good = one that would drive the demand for bitcoins up
755 2011-04-21 08:49:49 <Blitzboom> and maintain it
756 2011-04-21 08:50:52 <jaromil> BlueMatt: ok thanks anyway i've just convinced my gf to leave me her apple for today
757 2011-04-21 08:51:23 <jaromil> if all goes well i'll be fixing the autotools for osx and win
758 2011-04-21 08:51:31 <jaromil> i wanna get ready with this pull request
759 2011-04-21 08:52:04 <jaromil> and then package bitcoin with this js gui by tcatm
760 2011-04-21 08:52:13 <BlueMatt> jaromil: if you have time, can you do some research as to how to register bitcoin to handle bitcoin: uris?
761 2011-04-21 08:52:39 <BlueMatt> jaromil: Ive got it working on win and it should work on osx but I dont know how to register the app with the os
762 2011-04-21 08:52:47 <BlueMatt> and it looks complicated based on my googling
763 2011-04-21 08:53:29 <genjix> BlueMatt: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/169
764 2011-04-21 08:53:30 <jaromil> BlueMatt: i have no real experience of osx
765 2011-04-21 08:53:32 <genjix> use that patch
766 2011-04-21 08:53:49 <jaromil> trying to get an expert friend into it after pesach
767 2011-04-21 08:53:55 <BlueMatt> genjix: which patch?
768 2011-04-21 08:54:01 <jaromil> genjix: hey! goodmornin, so we meet today?
769 2011-04-21 08:54:27 <genjix> jaromil: erm not sure. ill let you know later
770 2011-04-21 08:54:40 <jaromil> genjix: ok np i'm also swamped in code :D
771 2011-04-21 08:54:40 <sipa> in the send-to-url patch, maybe you should require a ecdsa signature with the specified key in the text file as well
772 2011-04-21 08:54:53 <sipa> actually, never mind
773 2011-04-21 08:55:06 <BlueMatt> genjix: what does that have to do with registering the bitcoin: uri with the os?
774 2011-04-21 08:55:06 <sipa> nobody has a use for claiming he owns an address he doesn't
775 2011-04-21 08:55:13 <genjix> sipa: yeah i have an rsa signature for setting the address
776 2011-04-21 08:55:23 <genjix> ahh yours is a different patch. ok
777 2011-04-21 08:55:53 <sipa> or wait, what if someone is able to MitM the connection between your bitcoin client and the server you're trying to reach
778 2011-04-21 08:56:09 <BlueMatt> genjix: we need to have a discussion on the forums about the best way to implement user-friendly naming.  There are several patches and a conclusion as to which idea is bets needs to be made
779 2011-04-21 08:56:11 <sipa> no, never ming :)
780 2011-04-21 08:56:17 <genjix> sipa: so what
781 2011-04-21 08:56:24 <sipa> genjix: yes, it's pointless
782 2011-04-21 08:56:25 <genjix> you have it signed
783 2011-04-21 08:56:26 <sipa> so nvm
784 2011-04-21 08:57:06 <genjix> BlueMatt: so i made several forum posts 1-2 months ago and everybody ignored it
785 2011-04-21 08:57:22 <genjix> so i go and code soemthing over that time and make sure it's secure
786 2011-04-21 08:57:43 <BlueMatt> genjix: I mean like a poll to debate dns/http/custom protcol etc
787 2011-04-21 08:57:59 <BlueMatt> from there we can debate which implementation is best
788 2011-04-21 08:58:06 <genjix> why not try out my branch first
789 2011-04-21 08:58:32 <BlueMatt> there is also http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6186.0
790 2011-04-21 08:58:34 <genjix> because i made several posts but nobody ever responded
791 2011-04-21 08:58:48 <BlueMatt> genjix: Im just saying there are several and they need to be debated
792 2011-04-21 08:59:09 <genjix> yeah mine is better :p
793 2011-04-21 08:59:50 <BlueMatt> needs discussed (Im hoping 0.3.22 will have one of these things merged, or should that big a feature constitute 0.3.30?)
794 2011-04-21 09:01:27 <genjix> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4353.0
795 2011-04-21 09:01:29 <genjix> go discuss
796 2011-04-21 09:01:52 <genjix> new thread: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5938.0
797 2011-04-21 09:05:39 <topi`> morning genjix
798 2011-04-21 09:06:12 <BlueMatt> yay got my osx vm to boot (on linux :)
799 2011-04-21 09:06:36 <BlueMatt> yay for creepy binary vmware mod on some odd forum
800 2011-04-21 09:07:20 <topi`> the Forbes article actually has a positive tone
801 2011-04-21 09:07:27 <jaromil> also the times one
802 2011-04-21 09:07:36 <BlueMatt> I like the forbes article after the first couple paragraphs
803 2011-04-21 09:07:39 <jaromil> i'm making a new roundup on the media coverage on DYNDY today
804 2011-04-21 09:07:42 <jaromil> and will mention them
805 2011-04-21 09:07:53 <BlueMatt> the first couple ones are a bit strongly anti-establishment
806 2011-04-21 09:08:32 <jaromil> and i can't wait to dialectically destroy the tyler sucker guy
807 2011-04-21 09:08:34 <sipa> genjix: to be honest, when i read your proposals, my impression was "what a complex thing just to look up a name", but i think i didn't see the separation between the lookup system on one hand, and a server implementation on the other hand
808 2011-04-21 09:08:50 <topi`> jaromil: I think he is already pretty much destroyed :) see the comments
809 2011-04-21 09:09:02 <genjix> sipa: server implemetation is in contrib/ns and is written in php
810 2011-04-21 09:09:04 <BlueMatt> if anyone wants to run osx in a vm on linux (and dont mind pirating osx) check out http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=220750
811 2011-04-21 09:09:04 <jaromil> well i think gavin made an error to publish a picture of himself burning money
812 2011-04-21 09:09:10 <sipa> genjix: yes yes, i understand it now
813 2011-04-21 09:09:11 <jaromil> but then its just an opinion
814 2011-04-21 09:09:18 <genjix> kk
815 2011-04-21 09:09:22 <BlueMatt> jaromil: I doubt it was gavin's idea
816 2011-04-21 09:09:26 <jaromil> however if you are looking for media aware campaigners giving suggestions: i'm one
817 2011-04-21 09:09:33 <sipa> genjix: but just the way you "sell" the idea, starting to talk about requesting a public key, signing things, ...
818 2011-04-21 09:09:39 <jaromil> media is a strange beast and you need to know how to tame it
819 2011-04-21 09:09:40 <BlueMatt> I would highly bet the photographer they sent out said, lets get a cool pic
820 2011-04-21 09:09:56 <sipa> genjix: those are things obviously needed for proving to a directory server that you own the address
821 2011-04-21 09:09:57 <jaromil> however nothing rly bad: so far so good IMHO
822 2011-04-21 09:10:08 <genjix> sipa: i made a full explanation http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5938.msg91331#msg91331
823 2011-04-21 09:10:09 <jaromil> we need more well informed articles to explain what bitcoin really is
824 2011-04-21 09:10:31 <genjix> sipa: yep i tend to assume people know what I'm talking about too often :p
825 2011-04-21 09:10:53 <BlueMatt> jaromil: no one in the real world really cares, I think gavin does a good job explaining what people need to know, though there are some good podcasts explaining the technical aspects
826 2011-04-21 09:10:56 <genjix> where is this forbes article? is it about bitcoin?
827 2011-04-21 09:11:10 <BlueMatt> genjix: yea its entirely about bitcoin
828 2011-04-21 09:11:20 <BlueMatt> http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2011/0509/technology-psilocybin-bitcoins-gavin-andresen-crypto-currency.html
829 2011-04-21 09:11:21 <genjix> when/where?
830 2011-04-21 09:11:25 <jaromil> BlueMatt: i think gavin is doing great!
831 2011-04-21 09:11:26 <genjix> thanks
832 2011-04-21 09:11:43 <BlueMatt> jaromil: that is my point
833 2011-04-21 09:11:54 <genjix> crazy
834 2011-04-21 09:11:58 <jaromil> my remark was just about the picture and is not even a desaster
835 2011-04-21 09:12:22 <jaromil> genjix: ahahahah you have no idea what you are getting into :) plz keep the nail polish up
836 2011-04-21 09:12:28 <sipa> genjix: split it up 1) i propose this system for looking up addresses, and have an implementation that works  2) here is an implementation for a secure server infrastructure as well, and here's how to use it (and only there mention that you use public keys extracted from bitcoind to authenticate)
837 2011-04-21 09:12:29 <BlueMatt> jaromil: I agree the pic isnt idea but it does make people want to read the article which is good so...
838 2011-04-21 09:12:43 <BlueMatt> ideal*
839 2011-04-21 09:12:46 <jaromil> BlueMatt: yes
840 2011-04-21 09:13:26 <manveru> and there i thought burning fiat money was illegal
841 2011-04-21 09:13:30 <BlueMatt> NOOOO reddit is down
842 2011-04-21 09:13:49 <jaromil> manveru: it is illegal and that's why the dollars are covered with some funny money bill
843 2011-04-21 09:13:57 <genjix> sipa: thanks, that's what jgarzik said: So it was decided to split the pull request into several smaller ones. Here's the new one: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/169
844 2011-04-21 09:14:09 <Blitzboom> i think gavin ftw
845 2011-04-21 09:14:13 <Blitzboom> were damn lucky to have him
846 2011-04-21 09:14:21 <sipa> definitely
847 2011-04-21 09:15:24 <sipa> genjix: i mean even further, it should be clear that you're able to have a name-lookup service without any ability to log in on a server, fiddle with public keys, know that it uses rsa signatures, ...
848 2011-04-21 09:15:39 <genjix> is that not clear from my forum post?
849 2011-04-21 09:15:49 <sipa> after careful reading, sure
850 2011-04-21 09:15:53 <genjix> ok cool
851 2011-04-21 09:16:17 <sipa> but i didn't read it carefully after my first impression "why do i need all that hackery for an address lookup?"
852 2011-04-21 09:16:37 <jaromil> genjix: nice, readable
853 2011-04-21 09:16:46 <jaromil> genjix: so you want to add curl to deps
854 2011-04-21 09:16:58 <jaromil> fine for me. curl is everywhere and is useful for many things
855 2011-04-21 09:17:00 <genjix> yep
856 2011-04-21 09:17:57 <Blitzboom> i think the picture on forbes is awesome btw
857 2011-04-21 09:18:13 <Blitzboom> was surprised by it :D
858 2011-04-21 09:18:29 <jaromil> genjix: the namespace is confusing
859 2011-04-21 09:19:00 <jaromil> NameResolution to a unix aware coder sounds you are actually doing a dns query
860 2011-04-21 09:19:31 <jaromil> instead, what you call nameresolution is a response via tcp from a server with its own protocol and a database...
861 2011-04-21 09:19:37 <jaromil> i find it confusing. just a comment.
862 2011-04-21 09:20:16 <genjix> ?
863 2011-04-21 09:20:23 <jaromil> maybe naming it SearchAddress or something, since the term "address" is already used in bitcoind
864 2011-04-21 09:20:26 <genjix> it's doing a name resolution
865 2011-04-21 09:20:42 <genjix> resolving it to your bitcoin address
866 2011-04-21 09:22:01 <jaromil> well, man resolver(3)
867 2011-04-21 09:22:06 <jaromil> that is a resolution, for coders
868 2011-04-21 09:22:22 <jaromil> its just a comment on the namespace, yet choosing names is important
869 2011-04-21 09:22:38 <jaromil> here you are querying a database for an entry via http
870 2011-04-21 09:23:04 <jaromil> i'm not saying is a bad approach
871 2011-04-21 09:28:05 <genjix> i'm not sure what you mean tbh :p
872 2011-04-21 09:29:30 <jaromil> nvm. pedantic unix stuff. i've commented on the post.
873 2011-04-21 09:35:17 <topi`> genjix: remember to respect the unix gurus of the past millennium.
874 2011-04-21 09:35:34 <topi`> naming functions/structures is awfully important :)
875 2011-04-21 09:38:10 <RenaKunisaki> otherwise you end up with silly things like creat and umount
876 2011-04-21 09:39:38 <sipa> and things like locate, talk, date, cd, strip, look, touch, finger, unzip, fsck, more, yes, ...
877 2011-04-21 09:39:41 <genjix> topi`: do you have any code online?
878 2011-04-21 09:43:31 <RenaKunisaki> don't forget wine and mount in there
879 2011-04-21 09:43:41 <LtBrenton> yeah, should be
880 2011-04-21 09:43:55 <LtBrenton> locate, talk, date, cd, strip, look, touch, finger, unzip, mount, fsck, more, yes...
881 2011-04-21 09:44:14 <jaromil> lol
882 2011-04-21 09:44:15 <genjix> phantomcircuit: see PM
883 2011-04-21 09:45:27 <genjix> tcatm: hey
884 2011-04-21 09:45:55 <topi`> genjix: nope, haven't been coding for a while, just reading/writing articles. politics, you see.
885 2011-04-21 09:46:04 <genjix> kk
886 2011-04-21 09:46:14 <topi`> sipa: you forgot 'mount' ;)
887 2011-04-21 09:47:02 <sacarlson> so what method could be used to secure a small bitcoin proto network from being overpowered?
888 2011-04-21 09:47:36 <topi`> sacarlson: pretty much nothing. that's why you need geeks with powerful 3D cards in the bootstrapping of the network :)
889 2011-04-21 09:47:48 <topi`> geeks AND ideologists :)
890 2011-04-21 09:48:37 <sacarlson> topi`: what about limiting the number of minners on the network not sure that would work
891 2011-04-21 09:51:12 <sacarlson> topi`: I have another idea maybe the max number of coins in a day or hour and then switch the network to only pay the minners with transaction fee's
892 2011-04-21 09:51:26 <topi`> you can of course decide that only these nodes in the network are trusted, but then it's not decentralized, is it?
893 2011-04-21 09:52:00 <sacarlson> topi`: no it's not true and that would be the goal
894 2011-04-21 09:52:15 <noagendamarket> sacarlson just dont publish the connection endpoint...
895 2011-04-21 09:52:22 <genjix> does anyone know how i can contact gavin?
896 2011-04-21 09:52:42 <noagendamarket> ask forbes magazine ?
897 2011-04-21 09:53:54 <topi`> genjix: /msg gavinandresen foo
898 2011-04-21 09:54:25 <sacarlson> noagendamarket: you mean don't let them know when they stop making money with mining or they will stop running and kill your network ?
899 2011-04-21 09:55:01 <genjix> topi`: he's not online
900 2011-04-21 09:55:24 <topi`> it's still early  morning in Massachusetts
901 2011-04-21 09:57:14 <dirtyfil1hy> is the mtgox api getFunds call working for everybody else?
902 2011-04-21 09:58:21 <sacarlson> what if you start a network with a frozen number of coins that are already produced from the start and so from day one the only method for minners to make money is with fee's?
903 2011-04-21 09:59:41 <edcba> how do you distribute money ?
904 2011-04-21 10:00:00 <sacarlson> edcba it is purchased with btc
905 2011-04-21 10:00:24 <edcba> what's the point then ?
906 2011-04-21 10:00:34 <topi`> sacarlson: then, there is no controlled inflation
907 2011-04-21 10:00:58 <topi`> there are valid reasons why you want to have some controlled form of inflation (while ppl are still slowly adopting the new currency)
908 2011-04-21 10:01:01 <sacarlson> edcba: to trade something else like a corporation or other entity
909 2011-04-21 10:01:47 <edcba> sacarlson: wait for all bitcoins to be generated and you get your scheme
910 2011-04-21 10:02:18 <sacarlson> topi`:  no but the value of the corportion or entity might get more or less valueable over time and people can trade it as the value changes
911 2011-04-21 10:03:13 <sacarlson> edcba: I already have my proto coin creating new coins as we speak up to 800 pbtc
912 2011-04-21 10:03:30 <edcba> so ?
913 2011-04-21 10:03:51 <sacarlson> edcba: so I don't have to wait for all the btc to be created to trade them
914 2011-04-21 10:04:04 <sipa> but you can already trade them...
915 2011-04-21 10:04:36 <sacarlson> sipa: edcba: yes so why would I have to wait for all the btc to be created then?
916 2011-04-21 10:05:13 <sipa> you'd have a lot more difficulty bootstrapping your economy if they all existed up front
917 2011-04-21 10:05:18 <topi`> you can already trade them, and their value is being modified by the constant inflation (new coins generated over time)
918 2011-04-21 10:05:26 <topi`> agree with sipa.
919 2011-04-21 10:05:50 <sipa> "Hey, i'd like to buy your company, i'll give you 1000 of these virtual credits i've invented!" - "Eh, and how many of those are there? I have have 20.9 million left!"
920 2011-04-21 10:06:28 <sacarlson> the max number to ever create on pbtc will be 10000 so they should all be created in 10 or so days
921 2011-04-21 10:06:47 <sipa> what's the point?
922 2011-04-21 10:07:20 <sacarlson> sipa:  to test a curency after they have all been created?
923 2011-04-21 10:07:47 <sipa> why would anyone use it?
924 2011-04-21 10:08:08 <sacarlson> sipa: to trade other things other than currency
925 2011-04-21 10:10:23 <edcba> sacarlson: what advantage vs bitcoin ?
926 2011-04-21 10:10:23 <genjix> topi`: so you have no code online?
927 2011-04-21 10:11:05 <sacarlson> edcba: there is no advantage it doesn't replace bitcoin the same way the the stock exchange doen't replace the usd
928 2011-04-21 10:11:24 <sacarlson> edcba: they will coexist
929 2011-04-21 10:11:48 <sipa> it needs some advantage if you want people to switch
930 2011-04-21 10:12:09 <sipa> stocks and usd both have advantages over eachother
931 2011-04-21 10:12:44 <topi`> genjix: nope. but I wanted to join jaromil's GNUifying efforst :)
932 2011-04-21 10:12:45 <topi`> efforts
933 2011-04-21 10:12:48 <sacarlson> edcba: the advantage is that some small busness can raise money on a venture to open a small shop and to do so can sell shares to a group of people willing to risk part of there asetes