1 2011-05-07 00:11:40 <diki> this is what event viewer says
  2 2011-05-07 00:11:41 <diki> The system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down first. This error could be caused if the system stopped responding, crashed, or lost power unexpectedly.
  3 2011-05-07 00:12:13 <diki> oh, that one is from my reboot
  4 2011-05-07 00:13:45 <grbgout> g'night all.
  5 2011-05-07 00:31:39 <lolcat> How much is bitcoin worth today?
  6 2011-05-07 00:32:37 <theymos> Around $3.5.
  7 2011-05-07 00:42:32 <lolcat> theymos: Insane
  8 2011-05-07 00:42:42 <lolcat> theymos: I bougth, like 100 for $25
  9 2011-05-07 01:02:05 <xelister> ArtForz: sdk2.4->sdk2.1 == 560->630 Mhash.    Haha ATI, u so crazy.
 10 2011-05-07 01:02:29 <ArtForz> yup
 11 2011-05-07 01:02:46 <xelister> BIGGEST QUESTIONS OF UNIVERSE
 12 2011-05-07 01:02:53 <ArtForz> theres a reason everyone keeps shouting "use sdk 2.1 for 5xxx"
 13 2011-05-07 01:03:29 <xelister> HOW IS IT POSSIBLE that usafags keep calling 17 years old pairs pedos when said pair makeout with eachother, but a nigger groping 3yo on airport "for your protection" is ok????
 14 2011-05-07 01:03:54 <xelister> HOW IS IT POSSIBLE people getting high and aggresive on vodka are ok, but getting high on herbal is mass panic?
 15 2011-05-07 01:04:13 <theymos> People are stupid.
 16 2011-05-07 01:04:27 <xelister> HOW IS IT POSSIBLE ati can make best in the world x4 better GPU cards, but can't program SHIT on them, they even fuck up mouse cursor, and each sdk update over half year is WORSE ?!?!?!
 17 2011-05-07 01:04:39 <xelister> </list>
 18 2011-05-07 01:04:59 <ArtForz> yep, stupid shit like that everywhere
 19 2011-05-07 01:05:04 <xelister> theymos: I know but still it is just mind boggling
 20 2011-05-07 01:05:20 <xelister> this world is fucked up
 21 2011-05-07 01:05:26 <xelister> WORLD YOU SO CRAZY :-D
 22 2011-05-07 01:05:33 <theymos> Drivers seem to be the weak point in all hardware.
 23 2011-05-07 01:07:09 <xelister> lets make our own better world
 24 2011-05-07 01:07:11 <xelister> with blackjack
 25 2011-05-07 01:07:13 <xelister> and hookers
 26 2011-05-07 01:07:24 <xelister> actually screw the blackjack
 27 2011-05-07 01:13:46 <Diablo-D3> I think xelister discovered fark.
 28 2011-05-07 01:15:46 <xelister> Diablo-D3: nope, but thx for he idea
 29 2011-05-07 01:22:21 <LightRider> afk|So now I'm being hit with a .05 btc fee
 30 2011-05-07 01:23:54 <ArtForz> what on earth are you doing that produces that huge transactions?
 31 2011-05-07 01:23:58 <Diablo-D3> do you have a lot of sub 1btc incoming tx?
 32 2011-05-07 01:24:07 <Diablo-D3> because thats about the only way
 33 2011-05-07 01:24:08 <davex__> ;;bc,stats
 34 2011-05-07 01:24:13 <gribble> Current Blocks: 122359 | Current Difficulty: 109670.13329248 | Next Difficulty At Block: 122975 | Next Difficulty In: 616 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 0 hours, 33 minutes, and 4 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 151868.90103446
 35 2011-05-07 01:32:33 <LightRider> afk|Does anyone know where to get the older clients? This is rediculous
 36 2011-05-07 01:33:43 <ArtForz> cue "wahh my tx hasnt been confirmed in over a day"
 37 2011-05-07 01:34:11 <Aahzmundus> What is with the huge transaction que? are pools requireing fees now?
 38 2011-05-07 01:34:16 <theymos> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/
 39 2011-05-07 01:34:20 <ArtForz> nope
 40 2011-05-07 01:34:32 <ArtForz> like 95% of it are plain ole tx spam
 41 2011-05-07 01:35:03 <theymos> Is much of it pool payouts? Many pools are apparently not using sendmany.
 42 2011-05-07 01:35:16 <ArtForz> also possible
 43 2011-05-07 01:35:27 <ArtForz> = don't run a pool if you have no clue
 44 2011-05-07 01:35:45 <LightRider> afk|thanks
 45 2011-05-07 01:36:50 <ArtForz> and for pool miners that request 0.0x payouts and are left with a huge # of tiny inputs, well, it's their own damn fault
 46 2011-05-07 01:37:00 <Diablo-D3> yes
 47 2011-05-07 01:37:02 <Diablo-D3> what art said
 48 2011-05-07 01:37:20 <Diablo-D3> you end up getting hit with large tx fees
 49 2011-05-07 01:37:23 <Diablo-D3> as in, fees for large txen
 50 2011-05-07 01:37:37 <Aahzmundus> so, cant a block contain like up to like 1,000 transactions?
 51 2011-05-07 01:37:47 <theymos> Regular transactions seem to be slowed down when pools do that, though, so there's also a problem with prioritization.
 52 2011-05-07 01:37:53 <Aahzmundus> why isnt the whole que cleard in the next block if there is no fee issue atm
 53 2011-05-07 01:38:38 <theymos> Then spammers could fill blocks to 1MB for free.
 54 2011-05-07 01:38:40 <Diablo-D3> Aahzmundus: xel sent me 10btc over 1000 tx
 55 2011-05-07 01:38:43 <Diablo-D3> it took 35 hours.
 56 2011-05-07 01:38:55 <xelister> :D
 57 2011-05-07 01:38:58 <xelister> problem?
 58 2011-05-07 01:39:31 <Diablo-D3> sending 685 btc with those faulty tx in them to mtgox cost me almost 4btc
 59 2011-05-07 01:39:37 <theymos> Would it make transactions much faster if the free space was doubled, or would that just get immediately filled with more spam?
 60 2011-05-07 01:40:01 <JFK911> xelister would wear it out fast
 61 2011-05-07 01:40:35 <xelister> but you dont tell how later I donated you another ~10 btc (in 1 tx)
 62 2011-05-07 01:40:37 <xelister> :P
 63 2011-05-07 01:41:01 <Diablo-D3> xelister: yes, and Im not going to tell them how 10btc does not put food on the table.
 64 2011-05-07 01:41:16 <xelister> Diablo-D3: what actually given the 4btc cost? mtgox fees? bitcoin fees?  but could you avoid fee if you wuld send them slowly (no txfee)?
 65 2011-05-07 01:41:57 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin fees
 66 2011-05-07 01:42:06 <Diablo-D3> and yeah, can you imagine fucking with that dude?
 67 2011-05-07 01:42:08 <Diablo-D3> its nuts
 68 2011-05-07 01:42:25 <xelister> script it, doh
 69 2011-05-07 01:43:09 <xelister> what if you would just make transfer for 10 btc, but set no txfee?  it would still apply bitcoin fees since this 10btc would be consising of lots of small txes and such tx is then big in size and therefore expensive?
 70 2011-05-07 01:43:37 <Diablo-D3> the tx fee thing does not effect this
 71 2011-05-07 01:43:54 <Diablo-D3> infact, it gave out a "lol I dunno" error when I tried to send all 685 btc
 72 2011-05-07 01:43:59 <Diablo-D3> because it hit maximum tx size
 73 2011-05-07 01:44:05 <xelister> hehe
 74 2011-05-07 01:44:38 <xelister> well thats just silly how its triviall to distrupt bitcoin on tx level.
 75 2011-05-07 01:45:23 <Diablo-D3> its also expensive
 76 2011-05-07 01:45:36 <xelister> Diablo-D3: if you would make instead say 1000 transfers for small amount,then you would avoid any looses from tx-size-fee,  but it would take very long to process?
 77 2011-05-07 01:45:49 <xelister> whats expensive? the attack costs nothng
 78 2011-05-07 01:46:11 <xelister> so it seems spammer by sending horseloads of micropayments will forever fragment the coins poisoning entire market?
 79 2011-05-07 01:46:18 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit [Tycho]
 80 2011-05-07 01:46:46 <Diablo-D3> xelister: fragment? no
 81 2011-05-07 01:46:50 <Diablo-D3> its a one use trick
 82 2011-05-07 01:47:06 <Diablo-D3> when mtgox dumped my coins, it dumped it as 685 input
 83 2011-05-07 01:47:18 <Diablo-D3> (well, the components of since I had to split across tx)
 84 2011-05-07 01:47:27 <xelister> you could micro-send this crappy coins, but then the receiver will have same prolem as you had etc... so it spreads sort of.  untill someone eats the bullet and pays huge fees
 85 2011-05-07 01:47:46 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: fix deepbit already!
 86 2011-05-07 01:48:02 <xelister> >_>
 87 2011-05-07 01:48:08 <Diablo-D3> xelister: but the fees do not exceed the value
 88 2011-05-07 01:48:33 <Diablo-D3> yay deepbit is back
 89 2011-05-07 01:57:20 <[Tycho]> Hello.
 90 2011-05-07 02:03:17 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,gen 290000
 91 2011-05-07 02:03:45 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 290000 Khps, given current difficulty of 109670.13329248 , is 2.65970525989 BTC per day and 0.110821052495 BTC per hour.
 92 2011-05-07 02:10:29 <tcatm> theymos: changing the free space doesn't help. there's enough free space in almost all blocks, but there are no transactions with high enough priority to make it into that space
 93 2011-05-07 02:11:01 <theymos> You could increase the 4kB space for low-priority free transactions.
 94 2011-05-07 02:13:02 <ArtForz> errr... we try higher prio tx first, so the first 4kB for low-prio tx get used up by higher prio tx :P
 95 2011-05-07 02:14:25 <ArtForz> the way the current prio code orders tx into blocks is slightly nonintuitive
 96 2011-05-07 02:14:47 <Diablo-D3> it should just order by fee, and then by input btc.
 97 2011-05-07 02:15:30 <ArtForz> so someone can just send 1kBTC to themselves over and over and delay other tx?
 98 2011-05-07 02:15:53 <Diablo-D3> if they pay the fees to get in, sure
 99 2011-05-07 02:15:58 <ArtForz> what fees?
100 2011-05-07 02:16:06 <ArtForz> we use prio to order non-fee tx
101 2011-05-07 02:16:18 <ArtForz> fee-carrying tx can get in pretty much no matter what
102 2011-05-07 02:16:18 <Diablo-D3> [12:14:47] <Diablo-D3> it should just order by fee, and then by input btc.
103 2011-05-07 02:16:23 <Diablo-D3> see above.
104 2011-05-07 02:16:41 <ArtForz> yes, so someone sending 1k to themselves repeatedly would block all other no-fee tx
105 2011-05-07 02:17:11 <ArtForz> is it me or does that sounds even more stupid than the current scheme...
106 2011-05-07 02:17:55 <Diablo-D3> it'd take 1 slot.
107 2011-05-07 02:18:00 <Diablo-D3> if theres any slots left for no-fee tx
108 2011-05-07 02:18:16 <ArtForz> so... you want to order by #confirms, too?
109 2011-05-07 02:18:52 <theymos> Ordering by fees and then breaking ties with priority makes sense. I don't see why Bitcoin does that odd "reserved space" stuff.
110 2011-05-07 02:19:01 <ArtForz> yea
111 2011-05-07 02:19:10 <ArtForz> I've been doing that pretty moch forever
112 2011-05-07 02:19:27 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: order by confirms? hrrrrrrm
113 2011-05-07 02:19:28 <Diablo-D3> that'd be good
114 2011-05-07 02:19:38 <ArtForz> Diablo-D3: guess what the current scoring system is doing
115 2011-05-07 02:19:53 <Diablo-D3> fee -> input size -> average confirms of inputs
116 2011-05-07 02:20:13 <xelister> what is default Vcore on r5770 ? 1.2 ?
117 2011-05-07 02:20:15 <ArtForz> priority = sum(size of input * age of input) / tx size
118 2011-05-07 02:20:28 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: Im ignoring tx size
119 2011-05-07 02:20:38 <ArtForz> Diablo-D3: that sounds really stupid
120 2011-05-07 02:20:43 <Diablo-D3> large tx size would be promoted straight to the top on mine
121 2011-05-07 02:20:50 <Diablo-D3> since he has to fay large tx fees
122 2011-05-07 02:21:09 <theymos> Yeah, size could be removed from the priority calculation.
123 2011-05-07 02:21:17 <ArtForz> not really
124 2011-05-07 02:21:18 <theymos> Except with free transactions, I suppose.
125 2011-05-07 02:21:32 <ArtForz> well, we don't need prio for fee-carrying tx
126 2011-05-07 02:21:47 <theymos> We might need it for fee transactions some day.
127 2011-05-07 02:22:02 <ArtForz> so... let's fix it some day
128 2011-05-07 02:22:47 <ArtForz> but yeah, the current setup is... stupid
129 2011-05-07 02:23:01 <ArtForz> and quite confusing
130 2011-05-07 02:23:30 <Diablo-D3> well like I said
131 2011-05-07 02:23:44 <Diablo-D3> [12:19:52] <Diablo-D3> fee -> input size -> average confirms of inputs
132 2011-05-07 02:23:54 <ArtForz> Diablo-D3: your setup sounds worse
133 2011-05-07 02:24:04 <Diablo-D3> so if you have the most fees, you win
134 2011-05-07 02:24:13 <Diablo-D3> if you tie for fees but are moving the most btc, you win
135 2011-05-07 02:24:29 <ArtForz> so by just sending a large amount to myself repeatedly with 0 confirms I can block all other free tx
136 2011-05-07 02:24:29 <Diablo-D3> if you tie for fees and tie for tx size but had the coins the longest, you win
137 2011-05-07 02:24:41 <Diablo-D3> nope
138 2011-05-07 02:24:42 <ArtForz> you said input size > confirms of inputs
139 2011-05-07 02:25:06 <Diablo-D3> because most likely you wont get in to begin with
140 2011-05-07 02:25:13 <ArtForz> Diablo-D3: why?
141 2011-05-07 02:25:27 <Diablo-D3> tx without fees will rarely be seen.
142 2011-05-07 02:25:43 <ArtForz> oh, so we're talking about "in a few years/decades" ?
143 2011-05-07 02:26:17 <ArtForz> because right now small (size) tx do not cost fees.
144 2011-05-07 02:27:13 <ArtForz> and in your setup, I can get ahead of all other no-fee tx by repeatedly sending a large-value input to myself over and over
145 2011-05-07 02:27:32 <theymos> There have been several newbies I've talked to who were confused about the new required fee for low-priority transaction. If transactions were just sorted by fee+priority, that could be eliminated.
146 2011-05-07 02:27:43 <ArtForz> that doesnt sound like "working as it's supposed to"
147 2011-05-07 02:27:52 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: the only way to stop your shit
148 2011-05-07 02:27:59 <Diablo-D3> is to put confirms first
149 2011-05-07 02:28:12 <Diablo-D3> fees -> avg confirms of inputs -> total input size.
150 2011-05-07 02:28:29 <ArtForz> Diablo-D3: or do what the current code does, cumulative score from differently weighted characteristsics
151 2011-05-07 02:28:30 <xelister> yeah I tink theymos is on to soemthing
152 2011-05-07 02:28:39 <xelister> we need some good rules
153 2011-05-07 02:28:42 <ArtForz> with changed weighting
154 2011-05-07 02:29:51 <ArtForz> but yeah, I dont think the "free space" thing is really needed
155 2011-05-07 02:30:05 <Diablo-D3> Im already saying nuke the free space
156 2011-05-07 02:30:13 <Diablo-D3> and weighing doesnt work
157 2011-05-07 02:30:26 <ArtForz> just cut off tx below a certain priority score, and weight fees into prio heavily
158 2011-05-07 02:30:31 <Diablo-D3> fee hoard first, let old coins pass first, and THEN sort for rich people
159 2011-05-07 02:30:53 <bk128> are any 5xxx series chips still in production?
160 2011-05-07 02:31:02 <ArtForz> bk128: I suspect so
161 2011-05-07 02:31:22 <Diablo-D3> bk128: "no"
162 2011-05-07 02:31:32 <Diablo-D3> they're recycling 5750/5770s from existing stock
163 2011-05-07 02:31:51 <ArtForz> so where do the cypresses for firegl and firestream cards come from?
164 2011-05-07 02:31:57 <Diablo-D3> infact, I think they're taking the cards out, putting a new sticker on the heatsink plastic, and shoving them back itno a new box
165 2011-05-07 02:32:05 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: existing stock
166 2011-05-07 02:32:16 <Diablo-D3> and Im not sure if they're new at all
167 2011-05-07 02:32:43 <ArtForz> they'll need quite a bit of stock then
168 2011-05-07 02:33:01 <ArtForz> as it looks like there wont be fire* of 6xxx
169 2011-05-07 02:33:16 <Diablo-D3> there might be
170 2011-05-07 02:33:29 <Diablo-D3> and lets face it
171 2011-05-07 02:33:36 <Diablo-D3> its not like people actually buy those goddamned things
172 2011-05-07 02:33:44 <ArtForz> actually they do
173 2011-05-07 02:33:45 <Diablo-D3> they sell what, a few thousand a year?
174 2011-05-07 02:33:52 <Diablo-D3> thats easy to put away stock for that
175 2011-05-07 02:35:31 <ArtForz> shrug, guess so
176 2011-05-07 02:36:39 <bk128> whats better? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102932&Tpk=5850%20Xtreme or http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125318
177 2011-05-07 02:37:21 <bk128> or neither
178 2011-05-07 02:37:26 <ArtForz> gigabyte
179 2011-05-07 02:37:47 <ArtForz> the cooler on that sapphie is fail squared
180 2011-05-07 02:38:34 <MBS> lol
181 2011-05-07 02:38:47 <MBS> the Xtreme has no voltage control, but great temps
182 2011-05-07 02:39:02 <ArtForz> until the fan dies
183 2011-05-07 02:39:05 <MBS> and it is really short too, the same size as the 5770
184 2011-05-07 02:39:07 <ArtForz> then the temps arent that great
185 2011-05-07 02:39:26 <MBS> why would the fan die?
186 2011-05-07 02:39:48 <ArtForz> no reason at all, keep buying em.
187 2011-05-07 02:40:44 <bk128> ArtForz: no this is the worst cooler ever http://wheresalebestprice.com/images/Sapphire-Radeon-HD-5870.jpg
188 2011-05-07 02:41:05 <ArtForz> it's not like it's a cheapass sleeve bearing fan sitting right over the hottest area of the heatsink or anything
189 2011-05-07 02:41:09 <bk128> also the first card I bought (traded thekid for it for btc) lol
190 2011-05-07 02:41:35 <bk128> ArtForz: would you just rip off the fan and zip tie a 120 on?
191 2011-05-07 02:41:54 <bk128> I'm letting it suffer at 78C
192 2011-05-07 02:42:13 <ArtForz> actually with these coolers you can run a block of 4 cards with a single 120mm ;)
193 2011-05-07 02:45:37 <bk128> and its better than the stock fan?
194 2011-05-07 02:45:52 <bk128> should I leave the heatsink and rip off the shroud and fan?
195 2011-05-07 02:46:00 <ArtForz> bbl, have to be at work for a meeting today :/
196 2011-05-07 02:46:52 <bk128> ArtForz: have fun :D
197 2011-05-07 02:47:05 <Diablo-D3> bk128: get that gigabyte
198 2011-05-07 02:47:07 <Diablo-D3> thats what I ordered
199 2011-05-07 02:47:17 <bk128> getting 3 :D
200 2011-05-07 02:47:40 <bk128> 2 from newegg to different addresses for rebates and # 3 from here http://www.mwave.com/mwave/SKUSearch.asp?px=FO&scriteria=AA98542
201 2011-05-07 02:49:03 <quellhorst> bk128: where did you order them from?
202 2011-05-07 02:49:17 <bk128> http://cgi.ebay.com/PCI-E-express-1X-riser-card-adapter-extender-flex-/320627812981
203 2011-05-07 02:49:28 <Diablo-D3> erm
204 2011-05-07 02:49:31 <Diablo-D3> thats a x1 to x1
205 2011-05-07 02:49:32 <quellhorst> nice
206 2011-05-07 02:49:35 <bk128> yup
207 2011-05-07 02:49:39 <Diablo-D3> and that cable isnt shielded
208 2011-05-07 02:49:46 <bk128> I have foil
209 2011-05-07 02:49:51 <quellhorst> aluminum foil + duct tape
210 2011-05-07 02:49:55 <Diablo-D3> fail
211 2011-05-07 02:50:07 <bk128> and I'm going to check the pinout + soldering
212 2011-05-07 02:50:35 <bk128> Diablo-D3: so chinese companies have magic foil that works better for shielding?
213 2011-05-07 02:50:40 <Diablo-D3> yes
214 2011-05-07 02:50:47 <Diablo-D3> they grind up dead babies into it
215 2011-05-07 02:51:18 <quellhorst> male or female babies?
216 2011-05-07 02:51:29 <bk128> maybe its melamine :D
217 2011-05-07 02:53:50 <bk128> if you didnt get it... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine#2008_Chinese_outbreak
218 2011-05-07 02:54:15 <Diablo-D3> yes I got the joke
219 2011-05-07 02:57:05 <bk128> tasteless?
220 2011-05-07 02:57:45 <Diablo-D3> yes
221 2011-05-07 02:57:47 <Diablo-D3> also
222 2011-05-07 02:57:49 <Diablo-D3> http://www.rackmountmart.com/prodspics/r1010.jpg
223 2011-05-07 02:58:03 <bk128> how much?
224 2011-05-07 02:58:20 <bk128> bet its not  < $5 :)
225 2011-05-07 02:58:28 <Diablo-D3> http://rackmountmart.stores.yahoo.net/r11upciexx16.html
226 2011-05-07 02:58:30 <Diablo-D3> $50
227 2011-05-07 02:58:31 <Diablo-D3> lawlz
228 2011-05-07 02:59:49 <bk128> lol I'll take a chance with the $4 one first
229 2011-05-07 03:00:11 <bk128> your suggestion is a last resort :)
230 2011-05-07 03:00:21 <Diablo-D3> http://linitx.com/viewproduct.php?prodid=11768
231 2011-05-07 03:00:24 <Diablo-D3> pounds
232 2011-05-07 03:00:32 <Diablo-D3> but only 13 of them
233 2011-05-07 03:03:45 <bk128> Diablo-D3: i'll make thse $4 risers work :)
234 2011-05-07 03:04:16 <Diablo-D3> lol
235 2011-05-07 03:05:29 <quellhorst> that looks like aluminum foil to me
236 2011-05-07 03:06:18 <quellhorst> i'd put aluminum foil on it, then wrap clear wrapping tape around that shit.
237 2011-05-07 04:13:15 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
238 2011-05-07 04:13:25 <gribble> timed out
239 2011-05-07 04:13:29 <gjs278> jesus christ
240 2011-05-07 04:19:12 <gjs278> hal turner made his ddos last less than this
241 2011-05-07 05:07:20 <NewBitter> Hello
242 2011-05-07 05:08:07 <NewBitter> If i only have the Bitcoin program running and nothing else. Where do the BTC go? (The BTC the the program Bitcoin make)
243 2011-05-07 05:09:10 <NewBitter> Anyone?
244 2011-05-07 05:21:38 <fetokun> maybe it's too early yet
245 2011-05-07 05:24:52 <NewBitter> not at all
246 2011-05-07 05:28:01 <baaaacon> NewBitter: go to your wallet in bitcoin you running
247 2011-05-07 05:28:59 <NewBitter> I'm all new so sorry for the stupid questions but, there do i see my wallet? I have the Bitcoin program up and running atm
248 2011-05-07 05:29:00 <baaaacon> NewBitter: you see generated and 50 bitcoin in your running bitcoin
249 2011-05-07 05:29:13 <baaaacon> gui or linux?
250 2011-05-07 05:29:19 <NewBitter> Gui
251 2011-05-07 05:29:30 <baaaacon> your wallet id is at top under menu
252 2011-05-07 05:29:44 <baaaacon> generated bitcoin will show in list when you generated
253 2011-05-07 05:30:10 <NewBitter> Nice but how do i keep them? Its just a program no account or anything
254 2011-05-07 05:30:34 <NewBitter> also there a "file" "Settings" and "Help" butten at the menu in the top
255 2011-05-07 05:30:44 <NewBitter> Button*
256 2011-05-07 05:33:12 <NewBitter> looks like this: http://www.softpedia.com/screenshots/Bitcoin_1.png
257 2011-05-07 05:53:52 <JFK911> you have them
258 2011-05-07 05:57:15 <ArtForz> Marcel|HSD: what?
259 2011-05-07 05:57:42 <Marcel> HSD|ArtForz, my bad, sorry to bother you
260 2011-05-07 06:13:25 <an20> is there an opensource bitcoind that supports long polling?
261 2011-05-07 06:15:42 <rawry> poclbm is mit isn't it?
262 2011-05-07 06:16:54 <AAA_awright> Isn't long polling HTTP...?
263 2011-05-07 06:17:24 <lianj> rawry: https://github.com/m0mchil/poclbm/blob/master/LICENSE
264 2011-05-07 06:17:35 <rawry> even better
265 2011-05-07 06:17:56 <rawry> public domain = do wtf ever you want with it
266 2011-05-07 06:18:13 <an20> I am looking for the server, not the client.  isnt poclbm a client?
267 2011-05-07 06:18:31 <lianj> rawry: :)
268 2011-05-07 06:27:35 <rawry> it's dead simple to implement anyways, its just a rpc call with no timeout (or at least timeout > average current generation rate)
269 2011-05-07 06:32:06 <NewBitter> Can't you like buy a cheep seedbox some where and set it to mineing?
270 2011-05-07 06:32:24 <sipa> seedbox?
271 2011-05-07 06:33:20 <soultcer> NewBitter: You can, at least for a few hours until the host kicks you off for abuse
272 2011-05-07 06:33:59 <rawry> and it's not going to have enough cycles to matter
273 2011-05-07 06:34:06 <NewBitter> sipa: Google it :)
274 2011-05-07 06:34:14 <NewBitter> Ahh okay
275 2011-05-07 06:34:24 <soultcer> Though you usually don't get shell access to a seedbox, do you?
276 2011-05-07 06:34:25 <NewBitter> too bad it would have been great tho
277 2011-05-07 06:34:49 <NewBitter> I dunno never had one just heard of it
278 2011-05-07 06:37:35 <soultcer> My old vps host didn't mind me running bitcoin, the vps more than paid for itself back when the difficulty was low ;-)
279 2011-05-07 06:38:12 <soultcer> Too bad their bandwidth quota was way too low
280 2011-05-07 06:43:47 <NewBitter> I have a Nvidia 260GTX and it's f slow.. running at 40.. Not much.. if i have access to a lot of old computers can i set them to do it on their CPU? The GPU is some intel onbord shit xD
281 2011-05-07 06:44:41 <sipa> you could
282 2011-05-07 06:44:51 <rawry> but your odds are awful
283 2011-05-07 06:44:57 <rawry> pay more in power cost
284 2011-05-07 06:44:58 <sipa> but you'll need a LOT
285 2011-05-07 06:45:25 <sipa> and the power bill will be a lot highsr even
286 2011-05-07 06:45:27 <NewBitter> if i have like 5-10 and i'm not paying anything, because it's public
287 2011-05-07 06:45:45 <NewBitter> so the state are paying for my money :D
288 2011-05-07 06:45:49 <rawry> would dropping fee-less txns be a bad thing?
289 2011-05-07 06:46:23 <rawry> NewBitter: then that is most likely fraud
290 2011-05-07 06:47:18 <rawry> let me rephrase that question
291 2011-05-07 06:47:28 <rawry> would dropping fee-less txns cause blocks not to validate?
292 2011-05-07 06:47:56 <sipa> they would be valid
293 2011-05-07 06:48:14 <sipa> but why would you do so?
294 2011-05-07 06:48:28 <NewBitter> They are always running, it's on a school. So why not just use som CPU power to do it? No one would know
295 2011-05-07 06:50:15 <sipa> just buy some
296 2011-05-07 06:51:03 <rawry> NewBitter: because it spikes power cost
297 2011-05-07 06:51:23 <rawry> NewBitter: google for the guy who did similar at work with seti@home. you do not want to do this.
298 2011-05-07 06:51:38 <jrabbit> NewBitter: only if you have legal access.
299 2011-05-07 06:51:47 <rawry> and PERMISSION
300 2011-05-07 06:51:56 <jrabbit> that could help.
301 2011-05-07 06:52:12 <jrabbit> depends on your relationship with the owner tbh
302 2011-05-07 06:52:31 <NewBitter> I do not have permission or legal access
303 2011-05-07 06:53:01 <jrabbit> Lol then don't
304 2011-05-07 06:53:01 <rawry> sipa: because to my understanding thats the long-term plan to incentivize generation, I was just verifying
305 2011-05-07 06:53:12 <NewBitter> I guess i just have to buy stocks and sell them again
306 2011-05-07 06:53:22 <jrabbit> NewBitter: its no different then hacking then :P
307 2011-05-07 06:53:30 <rawry> NewBitter: you just logged your admission of guilt on a public website, if you end up doing it, fyi
308 2011-05-07 06:53:38 <rawry> (so don't)
309 2011-05-07 06:55:12 <NewBitter> They can't trace me. It's no diffrent then hacking? Why? it's not hacking anything is it?
310 2011-05-07 06:56:05 <jrabbit> ...
311 2011-05-07 06:56:07 <rawry> it's unauthoriezed computer access
312 2011-05-07 07:25:29 <cosurgi> ;;isitdown mtgox.com
313 2011-05-07 07:25:39 <gribble> http://mtgox.com Is Down -> Check if your website is up or down?
314 2011-05-07 07:26:41 <cosurgi> MagicalTux: do you have some more ideas how to bring mtgox up ?
315 2011-05-07 07:26:51 <cosurgi> :(
316 2011-05-07 07:27:00 <cosurgi> MagicalTux: can we help somehow?
317 2011-05-07 07:28:56 <UukGoblin> question: is that the gov't attacking, or just bored crackers?
318 2011-05-07 07:29:35 <BlueMatt> crackers who want him to pay to make it stop
319 2011-05-07 07:29:41 <BlueMatt> (last I heard)
320 2011-05-07 07:29:51 <UukGoblin> yeah heard that too
321 2011-05-07 07:30:38 <cosurgi> luke-jr: wooo! we got a block!
322 2011-05-07 07:32:21 <errydayimgenerat> http://i53.tinypic.com/sltedh.jpg
323 2011-05-07 07:32:24 <errydayimgenerat> y'all late to the party
324 2011-05-07 07:32:48 <ArtForz> l??l
325 2011-05-07 07:33:01 <vsviridov> this looks shopped :D
326 2011-05-07 07:33:09 <BlueMatt> testnet?
327 2011-05-07 07:33:37 <ArtForz> 70824 blocks?
328 2011-05-07 07:33:41 <BlueMatt> vsviridov: how the f can you tell if its shopped if its just text...
329 2011-05-07 07:33:54 <retinal> 70 824 - 6323 = 64 501
330 2011-05-07 07:34:05 <vsviridov> j/k jeez, but those jpeg artifacts don't help either :D
331 2011-05-07 07:34:15 <retinal> http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000aafe9e73b003daed213ea58da710fdf015eb4151198930cf8cea614 = 64501
332 2011-05-07 07:34:33 <UukGoblin> that was like a year ago
333 2011-05-07 07:34:35 <BlueMatt> time does technically line up
334 2011-05-07 07:34:38 <retinal> 2010-07-06 00:27:32 vs 7/5/2010 in the picture
335 2011-05-07 07:34:47 <BlueMatt> retinal: time zone
336 2011-05-07 07:34:56 <vsviridov> one year ago i was generating with software too :(
337 2011-05-07 07:35:04 <vsviridov> but, unfortunately not for too long
338 2011-05-07 07:35:06 <retinal> BlueMatt: I was going to point out it was "close enough"
339 2011-05-07 07:35:16 <vsviridov> managed to get a couple of hundred though
340 2011-05-07 07:36:18 <errydayimgenerat> i was doing that
341 2011-05-07 07:36:20 <errydayimgenerat> with a dell
342 2011-05-07 07:36:21 <errydayimgenerat> also
343 2011-05-07 07:36:30 <errydayimgenerat> thet blocks were still counting
344 2011-05-07 07:36:34 <errydayimgenerat> when i took ss
345 2011-05-07 07:37:58 <ArtForz> and I generated a total of 409650 btc so far, your point being?
346 2011-05-07 07:38:50 <retinal> ;;calc 409650/50
347 2011-05-07 07:38:50 <sipa> damn you'd be rich if you kept them all :D
348 2011-05-07 07:38:51 <gribble> 409???650 / 50 = 8193
349 2011-05-07 07:38:55 <retinal> dem blox
350 2011-05-07 07:39:15 <retinal> ;;bc,stats
351 2011-05-07 07:39:24 <ArtForz> yeah, only kept ~50k
352 2011-05-07 07:39:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 122420 | Current Difficulty: 109670.13329248 | Next Difficulty At Block: 122975 | Next Difficulty In: 555 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 16 hours, 26 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 152852.19083049
353 2011-05-07 07:39:36 <gribble> 8193 / 122???420 = 0.066925339
354 2011-05-07 07:39:36 <retinal> ;;calc 8193/122420
355 2011-05-07 07:39:39 <retinal> oh my
356 2011-05-07 07:40:23 <ArtForz> I was 20 - 30% of the total network for quite a while ;)
357 2011-05-07 07:41:53 <UukGoblin> that's what you get for knowing how to code :>
358 2011-05-07 07:41:55 <cosurgi> ArtForz: I observed that when a 5870 GPU is single in PC it is a little faster: 405 MHs alone, vs. 395 MHs when three of them are in one PC.
359 2011-05-07 07:42:09 <ArtForz> cosurgi: quite possible
360 2011-05-07 07:42:14 <cosurgi> thx.
361 2011-05-07 07:43:08 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, i've given up on sticking 4x 5970 in one pc btw. couldn't get it to work.
362 2011-05-07 07:43:30 <ArtForz> dunno, working fine here
363 2011-05-07 07:43:56 <ArtForz> probably depends on driver version, sdk version, kernel and phase of the moon
364 2011-05-07 07:44:19 <UukGoblin> there must be some magical interference between my risers or psus. or a driver bug.
365 2011-05-07 07:44:48 <UukGoblin> well the only one that may mismatch is the kernel - what's yours?
366 2011-05-07 07:44:50 <ArtForz> are the cards in pcie2.0 slots? tried forcing gen1 speeds?
367 2011-05-07 07:45:05 <ArtForz> 2.6.32
368 2011-05-07 07:45:09 <ArtForz> amd64
369 2011-05-07 07:45:50 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, they're in 2.0, yes. the setpci command didn't work for me - said it didn't know what CAP_EXP was
370 2011-05-07 07:46:27 <UukGoblin> yeah, i was on 2.6.32 too
371 2011-05-07 07:46:44 <UukGoblin> actually there was one more thing to try...
372 2011-05-07 07:47:02 <UukGoblin> but the pc kept hanging and weird things were happening
373 2011-05-07 07:47:20 <ArtForz> that can be caused by marginal risers
374 2011-05-07 07:47:33 <ArtForz> especially the last slot on the 790FX is ... picky
375 2011-05-07 07:47:37 <UukGoblin> so we decided it's not worth it - works ok with 3 cards. occasional shutdown of 1 chip every few days.
376 2011-05-07 07:47:49 <ArtForz> probably coz it has the longest traces to the northbridge
377 2011-05-07 07:47:50 <retinal> occasional shutdown = bad
378 2011-05-07 07:48:08 <ArtForz> someone should totally build active risers
379 2011-05-07 07:48:24 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, we were trying msi 790fx as well as gigabyte
380 2011-05-07 07:48:33 <ArtForz> w/ PCIe redrivers
381 2011-05-07 07:48:33 <errydayimgenerat> i did my mining on a dell
382 2011-05-07 07:48:36 <errydayimgenerat> with a 4630
383 2011-05-07 07:48:44 <errydayimgenerat> cause i'm boss like that
384 2011-05-07 07:48:45 <errydayimgenerat> on xp
385 2011-05-07 07:48:47 <ArtForz> errydayimgenerat: I call BS
386 2011-05-07 07:48:54 <errydayimgenerat> lol
387 2011-05-07 07:49:02 <errydayimgenerat> i'm not bsing
388 2011-05-07 07:49:13 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, that'd be nice. and pricey ;)
389 2011-05-07 07:49:14 <errydayimgenerat> when did you start generating?
390 2011-05-07 07:49:20 <ArtForz> back then there were no gpu miners
391 2011-05-07 07:49:35 <ArtForz> I should know, I fucking *wrote* the first decent one
392 2011-05-07 07:50:37 <ArtForz> my first GPU-mined block was 2010-07-08
393 2011-05-07 07:51:16 <midnightmagic> :-) you kept that record like a memento. awesome.
394 2011-05-07 07:52:11 <UukGoblin> back then i was hiring rackspace cloud servers for mining
395 2011-05-07 07:52:22 <UukGoblin> that was fun too
396 2011-05-07 07:52:29 <UukGoblin> genned around 30k btc
397 2011-05-07 07:52:37 <gjs278> how many did you sell
398 2011-05-07 07:52:39 <gjs278> before the $1 mark
399 2011-05-07 07:52:52 <UukGoblin> about 20k i think
400 2011-05-07 07:53:38 <gjs278> I don't think I would have gotten involved with cloud servers for this, all I cared about was breaking even
401 2011-05-07 07:53:47 <gjs278> and getting free gfx cards
402 2011-05-07 07:53:48 <gjs278> and fans
403 2011-05-07 07:54:11 <UukGoblin> cloud servers were profitable and there were no gpu clients available
404 2011-05-07 07:54:16 <errydayimgenerat> i came up 22k ish without even investing or thinking about anything
405 2011-05-07 07:54:18 <errydayimgenerat> on my dell
406 2011-05-07 07:54:29 <UukGoblin> by the time i started learning cuda a few free ones came out
407 2011-05-07 07:54:56 <errydayimgenerat> okay artforz i guess it was bs
408 2011-05-07 07:54:59 <errydayimgenerat> and all software
409 2011-05-07 07:55:10 <errydayimgenerat> you're still a fag
410 2011-05-07 07:55:33 <ArtForz> lol
411 2011-05-07 07:55:37 <retinal> ( ???
412 2011-05-07 07:55:46 <ArtForz> unicode soup ftw
413 2011-05-07 07:56:03 <retinal> oh come on, install them fonts
414 2011-05-07 07:56:08 <UukGoblin> ArtForz is allright, he's very helpful on irc :)
415 2011-05-07 07:56:29 <errydayimgenerat> well of course he's making money off of it
416 2011-05-07 07:56:30 <gjs278> I can definitely see the entire thing
417 2011-05-07 07:56:31 <errydayimgenerat> he's greedy
418 2011-05-07 07:56:34 <errydayimgenerat> like anyone else
419 2011-05-07 07:56:38 <errydayimgenerat> that's causes wars
420 2011-05-07 07:56:49 <ArtForz> boo fucking hoo
421 2011-05-07 07:56:50 <djoot> slavery causes wars
422 2011-05-07 07:56:53 <retinal> not like that's anything new
423 2011-05-07 07:57:09 <errydayimgenerat> hey artforz
424 2011-05-07 07:57:09 <UukGoblin> making money off being helpful on irc? how??
425 2011-05-07 07:57:12 <errydayimgenerat> can we hang out one day?
426 2011-05-07 07:57:18 <errydayimgenerat> more interest vested into btc
427 2011-05-07 07:57:19 <errydayimgenerat> btc go up
428 2011-05-07 07:57:23 <errydayimgenerat> artforz $ goes up
429 2011-05-07 07:57:31 <errydayimgenerat> if a man amasses a wealthy fortune
430 2011-05-07 07:57:32 <errydayimgenerat> he should retire
431 2011-05-07 07:57:41 <ArtForz> actually I *told* people "hey, with OpenCL a $50 ATI GPU generates faster than 50 high-end CPUs"
432 2011-05-07 07:58:03 <gjs278> lies
433 2011-05-07 07:58:14 <gjs278> I can do 24 mhash on this cpu
434 2011-05-07 07:58:15 <ArtForz> I got logs, what do you have?
435 2011-05-07 07:58:20 <ArtForz> back then you couldnt
436 2011-05-07 07:58:25 <ArtForz> that was even before sse2
437 2011-05-07 07:58:33 <UukGoblin> i have logs too, can confirm if i CBA
438 2011-05-07 07:58:40 <UukGoblin> ArtForz isn't lying though
439 2011-05-07 07:58:46 <gjs278> does mining hardware comparison have the old old numbers in it
440 2011-05-07 07:59:05 <errydayimgenerat> i have same hash now today as i did back then
441 2011-05-07 07:59:08 <errydayimgenerat> i think 1800k
442 2011-05-07 07:59:13 <gjs278> nevermind
443 2011-05-07 07:59:14 <errydayimgenerat> oh yeahhhh
444 2011-05-07 07:59:14 <UukGoblin> gjs278, back then there was no bitcoin.it
445 2011-05-07 07:59:17 <gjs278> it only goes back to december
446 2011-05-07 08:00:28 <jazzanova> hi
447 2011-05-07 08:00:50 <BlueMatt> hello
448 2011-05-07 08:01:06 <ArtForz> I currently only have about 42Gh, should be 60 in about 2 weeks
449 2011-05-07 08:01:17 <BlueMatt> more asics?
450 2011-05-07 08:01:20 <ArtForz> yep
451 2011-05-07 08:01:32 <jazzanova> trying to run bitcoind in a chroot environment, and I'm getting error: EC_KEY_generate_key failed
452 2011-05-07 08:01:43 <BlueMatt> just in time for diff increase
453 2011-05-07 08:01:47 <jazzanova> what am i missing?
454 2011-05-07 08:01:54 <BlueMatt> openssl
455 2011-05-07 08:01:58 <gjs278> just in time to help force the new diff increase
456 2011-05-07 08:02:01 <ArtForz> soudns like openssl has a problem
457 2011-05-07 08:02:25 <ArtForz> built the first 1.6Ghps yesterday, another 3.2Ghps today, another 2 tomorrow, ...
458 2011-05-07 08:02:28 <gjs278> difficulty increasing is awesome though, the coins always go up in value
459 2011-05-07 08:02:30 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 60000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 152816.37245172, is 394.916473063 BTC per day and 16.4548530443 BTC per hour.
460 2011-05-07 08:02:30 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,gend 60000000 [bc,estimate]
461 2011-05-07 08:02:51 <gjs278> but the speculators were way off on current btc prices
462 2011-05-07 08:02:58 <gjs278> they were all claiming $5 by may 5th
463 2011-05-07 08:02:59 <jazzanova> i have /usr/bin mounted on the chroot, so /usr/bin/opessl works
464 2011-05-07 08:02:59 <sipa> jazzanova: i assume it uses /dev/random or /dev/urandom, which may not work in a chroot
465 2011-05-07 08:03:06 <jazzanova> aah
466 2011-05-07 08:03:11 <ArtForz> as doing more than one 8-chip module a evening isn't any fun
467 2011-05-07 08:03:20 <jazzanova> sipa: let me try tihs
468 2011-05-07 08:04:21 <ArtForz> hand-placing about 200 bypass caps, most of em 0402s = PITA
469 2011-05-07 08:04:55 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, get a pick'n'place cnc!
470 2011-05-07 08:05:25 <ArtForz> a decent one is > $15k
471 2011-05-07 08:05:47 <UukGoblin> hmm
472 2011-05-07 08:05:54 <ArtForz> thats a LOT of evenings spent hand-placing
473 2011-05-07 08:05:55 <UukGoblin> my friend was talking of building one
474 2011-05-07 08:06:07 <ArtForz> have fun, that shit is *hard*
475 2011-05-07 08:06:33 <ArtForz> I'll probably get a simple semi-manual placer
476 2011-05-07 08:07:09 <ArtForz> those are only $1-2k
477 2011-05-07 08:07:15 <UukGoblin> well it's probably not gonna happen anytime soon though, got too many other stuff we want to make
478 2011-05-07 08:07:25 <ArtForz> = manual x/y, automated Z down w/ vac release on touchdown
479 2011-05-07 08:07:36 <ArtForz> and manual rotation ofc
480 2011-05-07 08:07:44 <UukGoblin> hmm
481 2011-05-07 08:07:56 <UukGoblin> x/y should be easy to automate...
482 2011-05-07 08:07:58 <ArtForz> but still better than tweezers + lots of patience
483 2011-05-07 08:08:08 <ArtForz> not quite
484 2011-05-07 08:08:13 <ArtForz> the problem is aligning part to pads
485 2011-05-07 08:08:29 <ArtForz> pickup doesn't always get the part 100% centered
486 2011-05-07 08:08:38 <UukGoblin> ah
487 2011-05-07 08:08:42 <ArtForz> and PCB palcement also isn't 100% identical
488 2011-05-07 08:08:52 <UukGoblin> (not that I used one)
489 2011-05-07 08:08:58 <ArtForz> so you pretty much need a vision system for placing anything < 0805s or so
490 2011-05-07 08:09:12 <ArtForz> for coarser stuff, simple manual alignment usually works well enough
491 2011-05-07 08:09:17 <UukGoblin> ah i see
492 2011-05-07 08:09:38 <UukGoblin> that's what's pricey
493 2011-05-07 08:09:43 <ArtForz> yep
494 2011-05-07 08:10:15 <ArtForz> you can get a used P&P without vision for $2k or so
495 2011-05-07 08:10:34 <UukGoblin> yeah that makes sense now
496 2011-05-07 08:11:15 <ArtForz> but then those are older machines with only ~0.25-0.5mm placement accuracy and a simple rotation/alignment cup
497 2011-05-07 08:12:28 <ArtForz> the new stuff has servo drives w/ < 0.1mm accuracy, rotation alignment via bottom vision, part-pad alignment via bottom+top vision, ...
498 2011-05-07 08:12:33 <ArtForz> impressive, but $$$
499 2011-05-07 08:12:47 <ArtForz> thoguh I guess you could do roll your own if you got the spare time
500 2011-05-07 08:14:52 <UukGoblin> well yeah i wasn't talking about vision ;)
501 2011-05-07 08:15:00 <UukGoblin> but perhaps could be done too
502 2011-05-07 08:15:30 <ArtForz> done on the cheap it won't be fast though
503 2011-05-07 08:15:41 <UukGoblin> mhm
504 2011-05-07 08:15:49 <ArtForz> getting < 0.25mm accuracy with belt drives + steppers is pretty much impossible
505 2011-05-07 08:16:20 <ArtForz> so you either need servo drives ($$$) or use trapezoid screws or ballscrews w/ steppers (slooow)
506 2011-05-07 08:16:56 <ArtForz> 2 usb cams for the vision system, one bottom mounted, one flying on the z carriage
507 2011-05-07 08:17:27 <UukGoblin> on our proto cnc we have kind of belt + steppers on x/y and a screw + stepper on z
508 2011-05-07 08:17:44 <UukGoblin> and yeah, z's fucking slow
509 2011-05-07 08:17:54 <ArtForz> but damn accurate
510 2011-05-07 08:17:58 <UukGoblin> yeah
511 2011-05-07 08:18:40 <UukGoblin> hrm linux emc2 doesn't support vision i don't think
512 2011-05-07 08:18:58 <UukGoblin> would have to correct gcode on the fly somehow
513 2011-05-07 08:19:02 <ArtForz> nope, you'd have to roll your own using one of the FOSS vision packages
514 2011-05-07 08:19:24 <ArtForz> as a placer doesn't really have to deal with forces, polished steel rods w/ linear roller bearings should be fine as linear rails (hell, just use brass bushings if you're cheap)
515 2011-05-07 08:19:58 <UukGoblin> all good to know before we start doing something big :)
516 2011-05-07 08:20:10 <ArtForz> especially if you have a mill and can do the bearing blocks yourself ;)
517 2011-05-07 08:20:53 <ArtForz> btw, for big(-ish) and only doing wood/plastics/alu, steel rod w/ linear bearings also works surprisingly well
518 2011-05-07 08:21:34 <ArtForz> just the rods are slightly... thicker ;)
519 2011-05-07 08:21:56 <UukGoblin> yeah our other friend has one like that
520 2011-05-07 08:22:07 <UukGoblin> but he has belts iirc
521 2011-05-07 08:22:23 <ArtForz> yeah
522 2011-05-07 08:22:39 <ArtForz> for machining simple wood/plastic panels belt drive is usually good enough
523 2011-05-07 08:23:00 <ArtForz> you only really need screw drives if you're doing precision machining
524 2011-05-07 08:24:19 <ArtForz> or if you're dealing with large forces (usually == machining steel)
525 2011-05-07 08:26:07 <UukGoblin> mhm
526 2011-05-07 08:26:27 <UukGoblin> would have to ask
527 2011-05-07 08:26:38 <UukGoblin> he definitely cut steel with a plasma cutter
528 2011-05-07 08:26:56 <UukGoblin> but that's not as force i guess :)
529 2011-05-07 08:26:59 <ArtForz> well, that doesn't exactly cause lateral forces, does it? ;)
530 2011-05-07 08:27:17 <UukGoblin> forcey*
531 2011-05-07 08:27:25 <midnightmagic> finger of god
532 2011-05-07 08:27:27 <UukGoblin> :)
533 2011-05-07 08:28:59 <ArtForz> btw, cheap trick for placing 0402s, don't use tweezers
534 2011-05-07 08:31:42 <ArtForz> wooden or metal pen w/ about 1mm dia ball tip w/ a light coating of tacky substance
535 2011-05-07 08:32:13 <UukGoblin> ha :-)
536 2011-05-07 08:32:26 <ArtForz> the solder paste on the board is more tacky than the tip, so placing parts is rather simple ;)
537 2011-05-07 08:32:36 <UukGoblin> nice
538 2011-05-07 08:34:08 <ArtForz> if the parts are ferromagnetic, same thing with a slightly magnetic pen also works
539 2011-05-07 08:35:58 <tcatm> sipa: chainsplit?
540 2011-05-07 08:36:18 <sipa> could be, maybe his interface doesn't deal with it correctly
541 2011-05-07 08:36:26 <UukGoblin> which block is it?
542 2011-05-07 08:36:38 <sipa> well, none, see http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stats/
543 2011-05-07 08:37:20 <UukGoblin> mhm looks weird
544 2011-05-07 08:37:56 <ArtForz> probably a split block
545 2011-05-07 08:56:36 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, do you know any FOSS vision correctors that could do the trick?
546 2011-05-07 08:59:31 <molecular> what does one need to get started playing with fpgas? grab one of these dev boards + jtag programmer from ebay?
547 2011-05-07 09:00:20 <UukGoblin> I guess an FPGA would be handy to have, too ;-]
548 2011-05-07 09:00:27 <UukGoblin> unless it's shipped with the board
549 2011-05-07 09:00:45 <molecular> :)
550 2011-05-07 09:01:49 <molecular> can someone recommend a small (as in cheap) fpga and a dev board that is as combatible as possible? just wanna have some fun (remembering building that cpu back at university)
551 2011-05-07 09:05:08 <molecular> does one usually use vendor software for making/programming an fpga or are the foss alternatives?
552 2011-05-07 09:07:50 <UukGoblin> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Axis_Embed_Video <- this looks promising
553 2011-05-07 09:49:22 <genjix> UukGoblin: what is that?
554 2011-05-07 09:50:06 <UukGoblin> that looks even better: http://hackaday.com/2011/02/08/update-open-source-pick-and-place/
555 2011-05-07 09:55:11 <diki> I want to ask some of you guys. Wallet.dat contains all of the btc right? If i were to move only wallet.dat to a different machine will i still be able to see and of course use my btc?
556 2011-05-07 09:55:24 <diki> or do i allso need the addr.dat file?
557 2011-05-07 09:55:30 <sipa> wallet.dat suffices
558 2011-05-07 09:56:19 <diki> so, my old PC is on XP and if i copy and replace it's wallet.dat with mine i will have my btc there as well?
559 2011-05-07 09:56:23 <UukGoblin> addr.dat contains addresses of nodes afaik, not wallet addresses
560 2011-05-07 09:56:33 <Keefe> technically, wallet.dat just contains keys to your bitcoins. the bitcoins actually exist in the distributed block chain
561 2011-05-07 09:56:46 <UukGoblin> diki, make sure you don't use one wallet in two places simultaneously, that'll break it
562 2011-05-07 09:56:53 <BlueMatt> your wallet contains a list of your txes
563 2011-05-07 09:56:55 <BlueMatt> and keys
564 2011-05-07 09:57:00 <diki> so if every people closed their bitcoin program the btc is lost?
565 2011-05-07 09:57:01 <BlueMatt> so copy that and you are good to go
566 2011-05-07 09:57:18 <Keefe> diki if every copy of the block chain were deleted... yes
567 2011-05-07 09:57:23 <BlueMatt> if everyone gets off the network...yea
568 2011-05-07 09:57:54 <diki> so no one has ever seen a massive internet cutt off ever to come?
569 2011-05-07 09:58:30 <Keefe> it only takes one person to hold onto a copy of the blockchain, to preserve his coins, as long as people in the future still value them
570 2011-05-07 09:59:01 <BlueMatt> it only takes two clients to make a p2p network
571 2011-05-07 09:59:05 <diki> SO what will happen if i were to copy my wallet.dat from one machine to another but the original machine's bitcoin program is still running?
572 2011-05-07 09:59:14 <diki> what will break?
573 2011-05-07 09:59:18 <BlueMatt> and if you split the network, as long as there is one connection between them...ou are good
574 2011-05-07 09:59:33 <BlueMatt> nothing should break with 0.3.21
575 2011-05-07 09:59:52 <diki> oh, i have 0.30.20.2
576 2011-05-07 10:00:12 <sipa> on 0.3.20 you may need a -rescan after copying the wallet.dat file
577 2011-05-07 10:00:20 <sipa> (and earlier)
578 2011-05-07 10:00:27 <diki> what's different in 0.3.21?
579 2011-05-07 10:00:45 <sipa> it will automatically rescan the blockchain as necessary
580 2011-05-07 10:00:55 <BlueMatt> sipa: I thought the watch for your own coins getting spent for you was added in 0.3.21?
581 2011-05-07 10:01:03 <sipa> BlueMatt: ah right, that too :)
582 2011-05-07 10:01:44 <BlueMatt> well Id say double spent issues are what you are concerned about
583 2011-05-07 10:02:02 <diki> double spent?
584 2011-05-07 10:02:24 <BlueMatt> spend in one wallet and the other one doesnt know that you spent
585 2011-05-07 10:02:52 <sipa> those are still possible currently, if you have bad timing
586 2011-05-07 10:03:06 <sipa> and can cause (partially) corrupted wallets
587 2011-05-07 10:03:26 <BlueMatt> well you have to actively try to cause that now (or have clients with 0 connections)
588 2011-05-07 10:03:41 <diki> oh the new version shows more numbers after the dot
589 2011-05-07 10:03:46 <diki> nice
590 2011-05-07 10:07:01 <sipa> BlueMatt: backup wallet, spend coin, restore backup before block is mined, spend coin elsewhere
591 2011-05-07 10:07:48 <BlueMatt> oh that too
592 2011-05-07 10:09:33 <sipa> BlueMatt: by the way, copying vectors around is a bit inefficient, as the data is copied
593 2011-05-07 10:10:43 <BlueMatt> where do I copy vectors around?
594 2011-05-07 10:10:48 <sipa> in other places in the bitcoin source, usually vectors are returned by having a vector<unsigned char>& vchOut parameter or so
595 2011-05-07 10:10:55 <sipa> when returning them, eg.
596 2011-05-07 10:11:05 <BlueMatt> ah, ok
597 2011-05-07 10:11:27 <sipa> minor issue, though, i think you can create a pull request :)
598 2011-05-07 10:11:56 <BlueMatt> alright, well Ill rewrite that first (I blame jgarzik, I didnt touch returns)
599 2011-05-07 10:12:36 <diki> BlueMatt: backup wallet, spend coin, restore backup before block is mined, spend coin elsewhere <- this can't possibly work
600 2011-05-07 10:12:49 <BlueMatt> yes one tx will be rejected
601 2011-05-07 10:12:49 <sipa> diki: of course it can't work
602 2011-05-07 10:12:55 <BlueMatt> but the client wont complain
603 2011-05-07 10:12:57 <BlueMatt> hence its a bug
604 2011-05-07 10:12:59 <sipa> the issue is that the wallet will be corrupted afterwards
605 2011-05-07 10:13:09 <diki> Who is actually in charge of the bitcoin program?
606 2011-05-07 10:13:15 <xelister> sipa: no, just restore backup
607 2011-05-07 10:13:26 <sipa> xelister: of course
608 2011-05-07 10:13:45 <sipa> but still, it shouldn't be possible to get a wallet in a permanently corrupted state
609 2011-05-07 10:13:56 <sipa> by just using the program
610 2011-05-07 10:14:31 <xelister> oh. yes
611 2011-05-07 10:15:08 <BlueMatt> diki: commit access: sipa, jgarzik, gavinandresen...who else?
612 2011-05-07 10:18:26 <molecular> sipa: a -rescan would fix that problem with corrupt wallet, right
613 2011-05-07 10:19:02 <sipa> molecular: no, it wouldn't
614 2011-05-07 10:19:11 <molecular> maybe the wallet could contain a "latest block" value and bitcoin do automatic -rescan on startup starting from that value
615 2011-05-07 10:19:14 <sipa> rescan only adds transactions to the wallet
616 2011-05-07 10:19:15 <molecular> what? it wouldn't?
617 2011-05-07 10:19:30 <sipa> the problem is that in this case there must be transactions removed from the wallet
618 2011-05-07 10:19:34 <sipa> as they conflict with the block chain
619 2011-05-07 10:19:40 <BlueMatt> I believe sipa has a working patch for "rejected transactions"?
620 2011-05-07 10:19:46 <molecular> hmmm, then maybe that should be done on -rescan, too?
621 2011-05-07 10:19:54 <sipa> yes, and my patch does that :)
622 2011-05-07 10:19:58 <molecular> ah, ok
623 2011-05-07 10:20:21 <sipa> and i also implemented automatic rescan after replacing wallet.dat, it's in 0.3.21
624 2011-05-07 10:20:30 <molecular> oh, then I have it ;)
625 2011-05-07 10:20:56 <BlueMatt> yay sipa :)
626 2011-05-07 10:21:09 <molecular> btw: I did a "git pull" and now cant compile du to missing sha256.cpp
627 2011-05-07 10:21:34 <sipa> hmm, haven't tried to compile master after the latest pulls
628 2011-05-07 10:21:51 <molecular> hmm, maybe sha256 got moved... didn't make clean
629 2011-05-07 10:21:54 <molecular> trying...
630 2011-05-07 10:23:45 <molecular> "make: *** No rule to make target `sha256.cpp', needed by `obj/sha256.o'.  Stop."
631 2011-05-07 10:23:59 <molecular> ./cryptopp/sha.cpp <- it's here
632 2011-05-07 10:24:07 <molecular> oh, no it's not
633 2011-05-07 10:24:39 <sipa> i can build just fine
634 2011-05-07 10:24:51 <xelister> hey you know what would be cool, sipa?
635 2011-05-07 10:24:53 <lianj> molecular: maybe git checkout -f master on your site
636 2011-05-07 10:24:58 <xelister> if bitcoin gui (and console client)
637 2011-05-07 10:25:02 <molecular> oh, I'm sorry. just saw there a conflict in makefile
638 2011-05-07 10:25:03 <xelister> would list all important actions too
639 2011-05-07 10:25:12 <sipa> actions, such as?
640 2011-05-07 10:25:13 <molecular> I modified that. why doesn't "git pull" warn me about that?
641 2011-05-07 10:25:26 <sipa> git pull is magic and dangerous :)
642 2011-05-07 10:25:28 <xelister> like received TX orders (on net level), getting new block (on net level) etc
643 2011-05-07 10:25:45 <sipa> it does list those in the debug log
644 2011-05-07 10:25:52 <sipa> end users don't need that information, i think
645 2011-05-07 10:26:12 <xelister> they need
646 2011-05-07 10:26:19 <xelister> should be in Advanced tab
647 2011-05-07 10:26:25 <xelister> and DEFINATELL important events-errors !
648 2011-05-07 10:26:26 <xelister> like
649 2011-05-07 10:26:29 <xelister> your TX was rejected
650 2011-05-07 10:26:32 <xelister> wallet corrupted
651 2011-05-07 10:26:40 <xelister> the block you minded was removed due to collision
652 2011-05-07 10:27:03 <sipa> the problem is that those things are not known
653 2011-05-07 10:27:04 <xelister> the TX you posted was not yet seen in any of 3 new blocks
654 2011-05-07 10:27:09 <sipa> there is no "TX is rejected"
655 2011-05-07 10:27:14 <xelister> "the TX you posted was not yet seen in any of 3 new blocks"
656 2011-05-07 10:28:09 <xelister> or like  "any of 10 blocks (no txfee was used)"  and "any of 2 new blocks DESPITE you send them with a txfee=0.02"
657 2011-05-07 10:28:11 <xelister> etc
658 2011-05-07 10:28:33 <xelister> also send dialog should allow to set per-transfer txfee, some transfers are important some not
659 2011-05-07 10:28:59 <molecular> I agree with that one
660 2011-05-07 10:30:01 <BlueMatt> sipa: couple things Id like to bounce before I make a pull request.  1. -nocrypt option to not encrypt? 2. automatic encryption of existing unencrypted keys?
661 2011-05-07 10:30:50 <UukGoblin> bloody kids whining about ops on privs... ;-P
662 2011-05-07 10:31:10 <xelister> no worries UukGoblin I will handle 'em
663 2011-05-07 10:31:25 <BlueMatt> xelister: you want to discuss ops, talk to nanotube
664 2011-05-07 10:31:27 <xelister> so what /did/ you developd for btc? :>
665 2011-05-07 10:32:01 <xelister> btw, btcfn is probably entering development (bounty almost filled)
666 2011-05-07 10:32:02 <BlueMatt> xelister: ops isnt about bitcoin contribution, its about being on irc a lot and being available to ban when necessary
667 2011-05-07 10:32:15 <xelister> BlueMatt: Im always here on irc and available
668 2011-05-07 10:32:25 <BlueMatt> (and not using that power unless absolutely necessary)
669 2011-05-07 10:32:28 <xelister> unless my raAAaAaGeeEeEon is hanging =)
670 2011-05-07 10:33:05 <sipa> BlueMatt: no passphrase = no encrypt?
671 2011-05-07 10:33:19 <BlueMatt> sipa: no passphrase = no init "Please enter password..."
672 2011-05-07 10:33:38 <BlueMatt> and I'd prefer to make people work to not encrypt
673 2011-05-07 10:33:46 <sipa> i agree
674 2011-05-07 10:35:15 <sipa> so, maybe you can extend CCrypter to have a dummy mode (which is by default enabled until SetKey is called)
675 2011-05-07 10:35:18 <BlueMatt> also, before 0.4.0 password change is needed imho
676 2011-05-07 10:35:34 <sipa> which does not do encryption/decryption
677 2011-05-07 10:36:12 <BlueMatt> hm, Id prefer to make calls to Encrypt always encrypt and handle the dont encrypt here in the wallet writing (and use key instead of ekey easier that way too)
678 2011-05-07 10:36:31 <sipa> ah no, not necessary, as ekey and key are separate in the wallet.dat file
679 2011-05-07 10:36:49 <BlueMatt> well if someone does -nocrypt new keys should be key not ekey
680 2011-05-07 10:36:52 <sipa> you have 2 separate options actually
681 2011-05-07 10:37:02 <sipa> 1) which key to use for decryption (and encryption of new keys)
682 2011-05-07 10:37:08 <BlueMatt> obviously read would be right either way
683 2011-05-07 10:37:10 <sipa> 2) do we want new keys to be encrypted or not?
684 2011-05-07 10:37:27 <BlueMatt> true...
685 2011-05-07 10:37:43 <BlueMatt> yea, so gui needs some real work instead of "Please enter password..."
686 2011-05-07 10:37:51 <BlueMatt> alright...Ill go take a look
687 2011-05-07 10:38:09 <sipa> you could have an option for not prompting for a password
688 2011-05-07 10:38:25 <BlueMatt> I think dont ask for password until wallet loading finds an ekey
689 2011-05-07 10:38:38 <sipa> or encryption is wanted
690 2011-05-07 10:38:42 <BlueMatt> yea
691 2011-05-07 10:38:50 <BlueMatt> so maybe the ask for password should be in CCrypter?
692 2011-05-07 10:38:52 <sipa> which should be default probably
693 2011-05-07 10:38:57 <sipa> imho, no
694 2011-05-07 10:38:59 <jgarzik> gpg and other keyring software encrypts private keys by default.
695 2011-05-07 10:39:06 <jgarzik> that should be the norm for bitcoin
696 2011-05-07 10:39:08 <sipa> CCrypter shouldn't do UI
697 2011-05-07 10:39:13 <BlueMatt> yea, encrypt by default agree totally
698 2011-05-07 10:39:18 <sipa> yes, agree
699 2011-05-07 10:39:56 <sipa> maybe it is easier to say: a wallet is either entirely encrypted, or not encrypted at all?
700 2011-05-07 10:40:19 <jgarzik> sipa: no, because that involves a more serious wallet upgrade
701 2011-05-07 10:40:37 <sipa> and that second option only exists as a compatibily case
702 2011-05-07 10:40:45 <BlueMatt> problem is, I dont want to ask the user for password until ekey is found and then ask for encryption password until later
703 2011-05-07 10:41:03 <BlueMatt> and I obviously cant ask for password in LoadWallet
704 2011-05-07 10:41:34 <BlueMatt> I think current implementation is pretty good, but "encrypt existing unencrypted keys" is very much needed
705 2011-05-07 10:41:35 <sipa> i think for now you can stick to always asking a password
706 2011-05-07 10:42:01 <BlueMatt> well Im not gonna make a pull req until it is to the point that it is ready for end-users
707 2011-05-07 10:42:08 <sipa> also, bitcoind should support reading a passphrase for a fd i think
708 2011-05-07 10:42:12 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: it sounds like the job of a simple, external program to backup wallet, then encrypt keys
709 2011-05-07 10:42:27 <sipa> encrypting existing keys sounds very easy?
710 2011-05-07 10:42:42 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, it just needs done
711 2011-05-07 10:42:55 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I disagree, for end users, making them run another program is overcomplicated
712 2011-05-07 10:43:38 <sipa> you *could* do it in LoadWallet, if a key (not ekey) is found, convert it to ekey immediately
713 2011-05-07 10:43:42 <grbgout> But there are certainly distinct roles bitcoin performs: node, wallet, miner; doesn't it make sense to isolate each for optimization of the role?
714 2011-05-07 10:44:13 <BlueMatt> grbgout: yes, it does, but who has time to split that?
715 2011-05-07 10:44:18 <sipa> yes, it is a combination of a lot of things
716 2011-05-07 10:44:51 <grbgout> BlueMatt: such is the benefit of FOSS projects.  It can be planned for, and addressed as time permits.
717 2011-05-07 10:45:37 <BitMark> sipa: do you mean fork?
718 2011-05-07 10:45:40 <sipa> no
719 2011-05-07 10:45:52 <BlueMatt> grbgout: its pretty much planned, everyone would want it, but just needs done...but no one has time
720 2011-05-07 10:45:55 <grbgout> an all in one application certainly makes sense for end users, which the current bitcoin fills well.
721 2011-05-07 10:46:01 <sipa> i mean a reoganisation of the code, for now
722 2011-05-07 10:46:10 <grbgout> BlueMatt: is the plan posted anywhere?
723 2011-05-07 10:46:11 <BlueMatt> which is the first step
724 2011-05-07 10:46:25 <grbgout> I'll brb.
725 2011-05-07 10:46:28 <BlueMatt> grbgout: not planned, but there is no point planning it until someone actually has time to do it
726 2011-05-07 10:46:38 <BlueMatt> otherwise it is a waste of time
727 2011-05-07 10:46:43 <jgarzik> Conceptually speaking, yes, an upgrade is easy.  But you must do it carefully.  Users really do upgrade -> downgrade -> upgrade.
728 2011-05-07 10:47:06 <BlueMatt> yea, thats the problem I have
729 2011-05-07 10:47:07 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: indeed.  pie in the sky plans for "some day" are rarely a good idea.
730 2011-05-07 10:47:19 <xelister> lol @ usafags btw
731 2011-05-07 10:47:27 <xelister> is that really how usually they do it?  http://i.imgur.com/SONjA.png
732 2011-05-07 10:47:36 <BlueMatt> Id like it to be a bit more "Your keys will now be encrypted and you can't downgrade ok?" on startup
733 2011-05-07 10:47:38 <sipa> ideal situation would be: user fires up new version, question "It seems your wallet is not encrypted. Do you want to encrypt it now? Warning: Versions 0.3.21 and below will not be able to read this anymore"
734 2011-05-07 10:47:50 <xelister> buying beer ... this ID card looks fake... I'M CALLING THE COPS?  seriously?
735 2011-05-07 10:48:04 <xelister> sipa: yeap sounds good
736 2011-05-07 10:48:07 <BlueMatt> in either case, gui needs a ton more work
737 2011-05-07 10:48:15 <sipa> BlueMatt: and for that, it is actually easier to have a single random-generated aes256 key in the wallet itself
738 2011-05-07 10:48:26 <sipa> BlueMatt: and encrypt that with the passphase provided
739 2011-05-07 10:48:38 <xelister> jgarzik: so what is better option then planning for future?
740 2011-05-07 10:48:55 <BlueMatt> yea but the advantage of that is not worth implementing over just KISS IMHO
741 2011-05-07 10:49:28 <sipa> it will allow you to easily change passphrases
742 2011-05-07 10:49:33 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: do you change the IV for each encryption, now?  I didn't look closely at that yet.
743 2011-05-07 10:49:41 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yes
744 2011-05-07 10:49:43 <sipa> or even have separate passphrases in one wallet
745 2011-05-07 10:49:58 <grbgout> BlueMatt: but if it's planned, then people can work on it as time becomes available.  This is an open-source project, there are plenty of drive-by programmers out there.
746 2011-05-07 10:49:59 <BlueMatt> yes but honestly its not _that_ hard to change pass so...
747 2011-05-07 10:50:15 <sipa> BlueMatt: no it's not, but it requires looping over the entire wallet
748 2011-05-07 10:50:19 <BlueMatt> grbgout: there are better projects for drive-byers to work on
749 2011-05-07 10:50:26 <sipa> (as does upgrading and downgrading, anyway)
750 2011-05-07 10:50:28 <BlueMatt> sipa: and that is _that_ hard?
751 2011-05-07 10:50:31 <sipa> no
752 2011-05-07 10:50:37 <sipa> but what if something fails?
753 2011-05-07 10:50:43 <BlueMatt> well I dont plan on writing a downgrade feature honestly
754 2011-05-07 10:50:45 <sipa> if the computer crashes in the middle
755 2011-05-07 10:50:52 <BlueMatt> use bitcointools
756 2011-05-07 10:50:59 <jgarzik> sipa: same comment for your suggested wallet upgrade
757 2011-05-07 10:51:09 <sipa> how so?
758 2011-05-07 10:51:30 <jgarzik> 'what if something fails' has to be handled either way
759 2011-05-07 10:51:34 <sipa> you first add a walletkey field with the aes key, encrypted with a passphrase
760 2011-05-07 10:51:45 <sipa> then atomically change all key's to ekey's
761 2011-05-07 10:51:58 <sipa> atomically is the wrong word
762 2011-05-07 10:52:09 <jgarzik> all that can be inside a single db4 transaction
763 2011-05-07 10:52:15 <sipa> ok
764 2011-05-07 10:52:19 <sipa> that should be enough
765 2011-05-07 10:52:34 <sipa> i didn't know it had transactional features
766 2011-05-07 10:52:37 <jgarzik> but you'd have to rework the code a bit.  transactions are stupid in bitcoin currently.
767 2011-05-07 10:52:43 <grbgout> BlueMatt: I guess the current approach is that everyone works on what they think is best, and the sub-projects are adopted as they prove themselves or appear sound?
768 2011-05-07 10:52:52 <jgarzik> db4 has powerful transactional features.  bitcoin uses them poorly.  :)
769 2011-05-07 10:52:54 <BlueMatt> grbgout: pretty much
770 2011-05-07 10:53:32 <sipa> BlueMatt: well, change passphrase can be nicely implemented as downgrade wallet + upgrade again :)
771 2011-05-07 10:53:39 <BlueMatt> though doing it manually is also simple, dont delete key until ekey is written ;)
772 2011-05-07 10:54:02 <jgarzik> grbgout: Yep.  That's the only way to do it, for big projects.  Any Grand Roadmap will be widely ignored, as people work on what they need / want anyway.
773 2011-05-07 10:54:07 <BlueMatt> sipa: simpler to just rewrite with new keys since privkeys are in ram anyway
774 2011-05-07 10:54:30 <sipa> BlueMatt: which does not have the incomplete transaction failure, as either the old passphrase or the new passphrase will work
775 2011-05-07 10:54:33 <grbgout> jgarzik: true, but it can't hurt to at least have it available for those who might want to jump in to get their feet wet.
776 2011-05-07 10:54:59 <jgarzik> grbgout: that's a list of 'newbie projects', not a roadmap
777 2011-05-07 10:55:10 <grbgout> jgarzik: that's not quite what I meant.
778 2011-05-07 10:55:20 <BlueMatt> sipa: if bitcoin crashes in the middle, bitcointools is always there to help...honestly I dont think its worth spending too much time on bitcoinfailed, recover wallet
779 2011-05-07 10:55:21 <grbgout> jgarzik: unless you're referring to an actual list of 'newbie projects'.
780 2011-05-07 10:55:45 <BlueMatt> thats a completely separate project
781 2011-05-07 10:55:58 <BlueMatt> anyway, I have to go, ttyl
782 2011-05-07 10:56:02 <jgarzik> grbgout: not just a list of newbie projects, but a community to welcome newbies and get them into project coding with mentoring, project lists, discussion areas, etc.  http://kernelnewbies.org/
783 2011-05-07 10:56:31 <grbgout> jgarzik: eh, I meant specifically for bitcoin, and was speaking more about a roadmap, but w/e.  Doesn't matter.
784 2011-05-07 10:56:41 <grbgout> I've seen kernelnewbies.org before.
785 2011-05-07 10:56:48 <jgarzik> grbgout: then I go back to:  roadmaps don't work :)
786 2011-05-07 10:57:05 <sipa> BlueMatt: well, i think it will definitely happen, and people will complain :)
787 2011-05-07 10:57:06 <grbgout> ;)
788 2011-05-07 10:57:23 <jgarzik> A list of near-term engineering needs is always useful.  But goals without engineering needs put the cart before the horse.
789 2011-05-07 10:57:29 <sipa> if you have a loop function to upgrade a wallet, it's easy to make it support downgrading as well
790 2011-05-07 10:57:49 <sipa> and you can call it twice to change a passphrase
791 2011-05-07 10:58:37 <grbgout> jgarzik: well that's what I meant, a roadmap of engineered goals.  But I suppose the project is still early enough to not have a full end-point in mind/sight.
792 2011-05-07 10:59:16 <jgarzik> Who says there needs to be an endpoint?  Software lives and changes as needs change.
793 2011-05-07 10:59:22 <grbgout> Indeed.
794 2011-05-07 11:01:52 <cosurgi> luke-jr: why I got only 4.45 in this block? Shouldn't I get (3/20)*50=7.5 ?
795 2011-05-07 11:02:37 <grbgout> cosurgi: there are fees...
796 2011-05-07 11:03:02 <grbgout> "Pool keeps all transaction fees to itself, plus 0.00000001 BTC per second since last-found block"
797 2011-05-07 11:03:14 <grbgout> perhaps it was a long time since the last-found block.
798 2011-05-07 11:03:28 <sipa> yes, but not 22.5 million seconds
799 2011-05-07 11:03:34 <sipa> that's about 8 months
800 2011-05-07 11:03:52 <sipa> ugh
801 2011-05-07 11:03:54 <sipa> 30.5
802 2011-05-07 11:03:57 <sipa> that's a year
803 2011-05-07 11:05:17 <grbgout> cosurgi: what's the 3/20 ? Your shares over total for the block?  Seems kinda small.
804 2011-05-07 11:05:53 <cosurgi> my power vs. pool power.
805 2011-05-07 11:09:00 <grbgout> cosurgi: ah, well it's based on the number of shares over the total shares to solve the block.
806 2011-05-07 11:09:26 <cosurgi> it's exactly proportional.
807 2011-05-07 11:09:50 <grbgout> jgarzik: I'm trying to remember a quote about planning.  The gist being that it's important to plan, and be prepared to toss the plan --- i.e. to adapt to the situation.  I think churchill said it.
808 2011-05-07 11:09:54 <cosurgi> grbgout: are you in luke-jr's pool?
809 2011-05-07 11:09:58 <CIA-30> bitcoin: genjix exper * ra4a8f8..4e4075 intersango/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (5 commits) http://tinyurl.com/3dynz2e
810 2011-05-07 11:10:00 <grbgout> cosurgi: nope.
811 2011-05-07 11:10:37 <xelister> cosurgi: trolololo the pool rips you off?
812 2011-05-07 11:11:01 <grbgout> xelister: maybe he's just trying to understand how the payout works?
813 2011-05-07 11:11:23 <xelister> maybe
814 2011-05-07 11:11:31 <xelister> I wonder if all pools are honest
815 2011-05-07 11:11:59 <grbgout> Probably not.
816 2011-05-07 11:12:25 <random_> has anybody released a php library that can verify blocks?
817 2011-05-07 11:16:31 <jgarzik> can php do that?  I thought all it could do it print html
818 2011-05-07 11:17:43 <random_> lol!  of course php could do that....
819 2011-05-07 11:17:44 <sipa> jgarzik: yes, though you can probably make PHP output C code, and invoke a C compiler, though
820 2011-05-07 11:17:53 <random_> there is no C needed...
821 2011-05-07 11:17:59 <random_> it could be done in straight PHP
822 2011-05-07 11:19:19 <sipa> of course
823 2011-05-07 11:21:28 <xelister> php can even do gui
824 2011-05-07 11:21:30 <xelister> afair in gtk =)
825 2011-05-07 11:21:47 <xelister> random_: C is crazy =)
826 2011-05-07 11:22:35 <random_> what do you mean C is crazy?
827 2011-05-07 11:24:37 <random_> so am I correct in thinking that satoshi was mining all through 2009 and 2010?  I've heard that the genesis block is like 25k or something, but what about all those blocks before then?
828 2011-05-07 11:24:44 <xelister> C stands for Crazy Code
829 2011-05-07 11:24:48 <random_> does satoshi have a huge pile of bitcoins somewhere?
830 2011-05-07 11:25:02 <grbgout> nah, he spent them all on hookers and blow.
831 2011-05-07 11:25:07 <random_> lol...
832 2011-05-07 11:25:10 <xelister> and crack
833 2011-05-07 11:26:16 <sipa> random_: the genesis block has a reward of 50 BTC, like all others
834 2011-05-07 11:26:22 <sipa> and those 50 BTC are not spent yet
835 2011-05-07 11:26:36 <random_> right, but what about blocks 0 - 20000?
836 2011-05-07 11:26:45 <random_> are they spendable?
837 2011-05-07 11:27:22 <grbgout> Why wouldn't they be?
838 2011-05-07 11:27:38 <random_> does satoshi have 5,000,000 BTC?
839 2011-05-07 11:28:16 <random_> if he does then holy crap this project paid off...
840 2011-05-07 11:28:17 <random_> lol
841 2011-05-07 11:28:26 <grbgout> !bc,totalbc
842 2011-05-07 11:28:37 <diki> So guys, how i do i read an address from variable that contains the address of a pointer to a null-terminated Unicode string?
843 2011-05-07 11:28:49 <UukGoblin> this is one of the best projects ever so why wouldn't it pay out ;-]
844 2011-05-07 11:28:55 <grbgout> ;;bc,totalbc
845 2011-05-07 11:28:55 <gribble> 6122850.00000000
846 2011-05-07 11:29:20 <random_> so you're copying a pointer?
847 2011-05-07 11:29:23 <grbgout> So, if satoshi has 5M BTC, then there are only 1122850 in circulation.
848 2011-05-07 11:29:45 <diki> i want to read what that pointer's address contains
849 2011-05-07 11:30:00 <random_> so you need a double pointer
850 2011-05-07 11:30:03 <random_> int**
851 2011-05-07 11:30:05 <random_> right?
852 2011-05-07 11:30:35 <random_> gimme some code - that would be more clear
853 2011-05-07 11:31:16 <diki> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb762188.aspx
854 2011-05-07 11:31:41 <diki> SHGetKnownFolderPath's ppszPath method returns what i need in the form of an address
855 2011-05-07 11:32:43 <diki> the path to the folder, however i have no idea how to display the path
856 2011-05-07 11:33:58 <ArtForz> whats so hard about that?
857 2011-05-07 11:34:23 <diki> i tried re_interpretcast
858 2011-05-07 11:34:48 <ArtForz> oh, in c-plus-retarded
859 2011-05-07 11:34:53 <UukGoblin> I've written an auto-throttler :-]
860 2011-05-07 11:35:15 <random_> can't you just declare a PWSTR and set it equal to that?
861 2011-05-07 11:35:26 <UukGoblin> no longer should closing the window during rain cause GPUs to burn
862 2011-05-07 11:35:31 <xelister> ArtForz: hm? C++ at least is high level
863 2011-05-07 11:35:43 <ArtForz> lol
864 2011-05-07 11:35:44 <ArtForz> c++? high level?
865 2011-05-07 11:35:51 <xelister> where you dont have to fuck with lowlevel when you are doing more interesting stuff then mallocs
866 2011-05-07 11:36:03 <ArtForz> it's C with some high level features thrown in
867 2011-05-07 11:36:05 <sipa> C++ is object-oriented sugar for assembly
868 2011-05-07 11:36:09 <ArtForz> yep
869 2011-05-07 11:36:12 <xelister> are you retards
870 2011-05-07 11:36:31 <sipa> no, and i like C++, but it's definitely not high level
871 2011-05-07 11:36:33 <xelister> foreach entire container execute lamda function - seems rather high level
872 2011-05-07 11:36:42 <ArtForz> C is portable assembler, C++ is portable assembler with OO that tries to hide shit from you
873 2011-05-07 11:36:45 <xelister> forgetting about boost or what
874 2011-05-07 11:36:52 <xelister> everythnig is in the end sugar for asm