1 2011-05-18 00:04:28 <diki> although, sadly i only got 1 connection :(
  2 2011-05-18 00:05:59 <diki> where is the premade 120k blocks file?
  3 2011-05-18 00:06:59 <guiklb> how can I make bitcoind show the total hashespersec for all connected miners ?
  4 2011-05-18 00:08:02 <XX01XX> guiklb... you can't... you could estimate it based on the historic rate of block discovery, though.
  5 2011-05-18 00:08:06 <kreal-> you cant
  6 2011-05-18 00:08:09 <kreal-> you need a proxy
  7 2011-05-18 00:09:08 <Xunie`> ;;bc,stat
  8 2011-05-18 00:09:09 <gribble> Error: "bc,stat" is not a valid command.
  9 2011-05-18 00:09:12 <Xunie`> ;;bc
 10 2011-05-18 00:09:13 <gribble> Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
 11 2011-05-18 00:09:24 <Xunie`> Damn it.
 12 2011-05-18 00:16:30 <Beremat> ;;bc,stats
 13 2011-05-18 00:16:32 <gribble> Current Blocks: 124749 | Current Difficulty: 157426.20628986 | Next Difficulty At Block: 124991 | Next Difficulty In: 242 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 23 hours, 51 minutes, and 50 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 236316.79592901
 14 2011-05-18 00:16:38 <Xunie`> Damn it.
 15 2011-05-18 00:16:41 <Xunie`> That was it.
 16 2011-05-18 00:16:47 <Beremat> you were close :p
 17 2011-05-18 00:17:02 <Xunie`> I know! :O
 18 2011-05-18 00:18:26 <guiklb> whats stored in sharees.log? (pushpoold) is there any info regarding it ?
 19 2011-05-18 00:24:03 <jgarzik> guiklb: the solution, and who contributed it
 20 2011-05-18 00:39:53 <plato_> can I set the location of bitcoins working directory
 21 2011-05-18 00:39:58 <plato_> to somewhere encrypted
 22 2011-05-18 00:46:55 <luke-jr> plato_: yes
 23 2011-05-18 00:48:08 <plato_> is there a command line flag or something
 24 2011-05-18 00:54:37 <horb> hey weasel, oops i mean luke-jr
 25 2011-05-18 00:54:46 <horb> EPIC!!
 26 2011-05-18 00:57:56 <horb> luke-jr = guy who would sell his own mother for 1 btc
 27 2011-05-18 01:05:22 <EPiSKiNG> in natty, do i just repeat sudo aticonfig --initial -f --adapter=all, when installing a new card?
 28 2011-05-18 01:05:31 <EPiSKiNG> or do i have to do anything?
 29 2011-05-18 01:06:57 <Diablo-D3> has anyone confirmed if SDK 2.1 works on 67xx?
 30 2011-05-18 01:13:22 <ne0futur> ;;rate MadSweeney 1
 31 2011-05-18 01:13:23 <gribble> Rating entry successful. Your rating of 1 for user MadSweeney has been recorded.
 32 2011-05-18 01:18:11 <da2ce7> ;;isitdown bitcoin.org
 33 2011-05-18 01:18:12 <gribble> http://bitcoin.org Is Up -> Check if your website is up or down?
 34 2011-05-18 01:18:16 <da2ce7> :O
 35 2011-05-18 01:18:38 <da2ce7> bitcoin.org is so down for me.
 36 2011-05-18 01:21:26 <jrabbit> wfm
 37 2011-05-18 01:25:34 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
 38 2011-05-18 01:25:34 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":8.389,"low":6.9799,"vol":38537,"buy":7.1598,"sell":7.3448,"last":7.3454}}
 39 2011-05-18 01:53:30 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":8.389,"low":6.9799,"vol":38326,"buy":7.2001,"sell":7.2002,"last":7.2002}}
 40 2011-05-18 01:53:30 <Jere_Jones> ;;bc,mtgox
 41 2011-05-18 01:58:21 <latregetic> slowly trending downward
 42 2011-05-18 02:00:35 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
 43 2011-05-18 02:00:35 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":8.389,"low":6.9799,"vol":38336,"buy":7.2201,"sell":7.3362,"last":7.2201}}
 44 2011-05-18 02:03:26 <phantomcircuit> latregetic, s/trending downward/stabilizing/
 45 2011-05-18 02:05:08 <latregetic> probably (we hope)
 46 2011-05-18 02:05:23 <latregetic> If it stabalizes at about $5 for the next quarter, we're golden
 47 2011-05-18 02:05:38 <latregetic> if it keeps climbing, it's probably gonna crater 1927 style
 48 2011-05-18 02:06:28 <phantomcircuit> it's been ~ stable for days now
 49 2011-05-18 02:06:30 <gjs278> I have no hope that they reach $5
 50 2011-05-18 02:07:18 <latregetic> if you look at the last month, it's been climbing pretty crazily for a currency
 51 2011-05-18 02:07:38 <gjs278> good
 52 2011-05-18 02:07:42 <latregetic> it was long term stable at like a $1 for a while before that
 53 2011-05-18 02:07:53 <phantomcircuit> latregetic, it's a commodity
 54 2011-05-18 02:08:05 <latregetic> which means either this is a boom created by media attention, or it's a true reflection of the current price
 55 2011-05-18 02:08:18 <gjs278> boom away
 56 2011-05-18 02:08:20 <noagendamarket> its undervalued imo
 57 2011-05-18 02:08:22 <latregetic> In one case, uh oh, in the other, horray!
 58 2011-05-18 02:08:28 <gjs278> the boom is great
 59 2011-05-18 02:08:37 <gjs278> I'm selling these things as they come in, boom away
 60 2011-05-18 02:08:39 <latregetic> as long as you cash out on time, yeah
 61 2011-05-18 02:08:52 <latregetic> I'm selling mine in batches of 5 btc
 62 2011-05-18 02:09:10 <phantomcircuit> latregetic, unlike in a conventional fiat currency boom/bust
 63 2011-05-18 02:09:20 <phantomcircuit> 1 btc will never be completely worthless
 64 2011-05-18 02:09:41 <latregetic> SHA-256 rulnerability discovered, chain compromised, BTC worthless
 65 2011-05-18 02:09:51 <Diablo-D3> latregetic: dude
 66 2011-05-18 02:09:51 <latregetic> *vulnerability
 67 2011-05-18 02:09:52 <Diablo-D3> if that happens
 68 2011-05-18 02:09:56 <Diablo-D3> thats the end of the world
 69 2011-05-18 02:10:00 <phantomcircuit> there are much bigger problems
 70 2011-05-18 02:10:02 <latregetic> yeah, tons of shit is fucked
 71 2011-05-18 02:10:07 <Diablo-D3> anonymous launches military nukes
 72 2011-05-18 02:10:11 <Diablo-D3> we easedrop on childporn
 73 2011-05-18 02:10:11 <latregetic> but never is a very powerful word, you should always qualify it
 74 2011-05-18 02:10:17 <Diablo-D3> and the cure for cancer is found
 75 2011-05-18 02:10:17 <phantomcircuit> well anyways
 76 2011-05-18 02:10:23 <phantomcircuit> cpumining on an atom with free power
 77 2011-05-18 02:10:38 <phantomcircuit> woooo ill make like 0.0001 BTC tonight!
 78 2011-05-18 02:10:39 <gjs278> I cpu mine on an actual atom
 79 2011-05-18 02:10:43 <Diablo-D3> and btw, sha256 has passed the point that its insecure
 80 2011-05-18 02:10:49 <Diablo-D3> even if a slight attack is found at this point
 81 2011-05-18 02:10:52 <Diablo-D3> it cant do enough to matter
 82 2011-05-18 02:10:58 <latregetic> how so?
 83 2011-05-18 02:11:03 <latregetic> sort of like the MD5 attacks
 84 2011-05-18 02:11:07 <gjs278> because we sha256 twice, double the proection!!!!
 85 2011-05-18 02:11:20 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: well, that just stops length extension attacks
 86 2011-05-18 02:11:20 <latregetic> it cuts the space for brute force by like 60%, still not enough to make anything useful feasible?
 87 2011-05-18 02:11:39 <Diablo-D3> latregetic: you mean time to brute, and no, 60% is way too big
 88 2011-05-18 02:11:45 <Diablo-D3> if ones found, its going to be near 0.
 89 2011-05-18 02:12:02 <Diablo-D3> collisions are a worse problem than anything
 90 2011-05-18 02:12:10 <Diablo-D3> and they're useless here due to the nature of bitcoin
 91 2011-05-18 02:12:25 <latregetic> I know there were some MD5 attacks that cut the search space by some pretty large percentage
 92 2011-05-18 02:12:33 <latregetic> and I can't recall if it was 60% of the exponent, or 60% of the total space
 93 2011-05-18 02:12:42 <latregetic> 2^36 vs 2^64
 94 2011-05-18 02:12:45 <latregetic> or something
 95 2011-05-18 02:12:48 <Diablo-D3> md5 found a huge flaw
 96 2011-05-18 02:13:03 <Diablo-D3> but that sort of attack doesnt really apply to us
 97 2011-05-18 02:13:31 <latregetic> and we can always just patch the protocol to SHA-512 or something if a vulnerability is discovered
 98 2011-05-18 02:13:33 <Diablo-D3> like, we're handing out the original header, and it has to be a certain size
 99 2011-05-18 02:13:43 <Diablo-D3> theres no way around that
100 2011-05-18 02:13:49 <Diablo-D3> the header has to be valid, every single byte
101 2011-05-18 02:13:53 <latregetic> yeah, the protocol itself is contrained such that a lot of the attacks aren't really useful
102 2011-05-18 02:14:01 <Optimo> proof of work
103 2011-05-18 02:14:07 <Optimo> genius
104 2011-05-18 02:14:09 <Diablo-D3> the sha256 is not used for cryptographic reasons
105 2011-05-18 02:14:26 <latregetic> What do they use for high security crypto now?
106 2011-05-18 02:14:32 <Diablo-D3> sha2-512
107 2011-05-18 02:14:46 <Diablo-D3> same thing though
108 2011-05-18 02:14:47 <latregetic> why is it insecure now?
109 2011-05-18 02:14:54 <Diablo-D3> its not
110 2011-05-18 02:14:59 <Diablo-D3> sha2 has no known vulnerabilities
111 2011-05-18 02:16:26 <latregetic> Does SHA have some kind of vulnerability now though?
112 2011-05-18 02:16:45 <Diablo-D3> sha1? yes
113 2011-05-18 02:16:54 <Diablo-D3> thats a completely different and unrelated hash
114 2011-05-18 02:18:16 <latregetic> I meant SHA2-256, what we use now
115 2011-05-18 02:18:30 <luke-jr> latregetic: erm, no
116 2011-05-18 02:18:37 <luke-jr> if SHA-256 is broken, Bitcoin falls
117 2011-05-18 02:18:47 <latregetic> That's what I figured
118 2011-05-18 02:19:03 <latregetic> but a theoretical way to increase collisions isn't really breaking it
119 2011-05-18 02:19:33 <latregetic> at least not in a useful way before bitcoin moves to a new hash solution
120 2011-05-18 02:21:07 <ninjaneo> lul if you have to move to a new hash, that = broken
121 2011-05-18 02:22:22 <luke-jr> Bitcoin cannot move to a new hash solution
122 2011-05-18 02:22:28 <da2ce7> wtf is up with the bitcoin forum...
123 2011-05-18 02:22:30 <luke-jr> it would just be a totally new network
124 2011-05-18 02:22:33 <luke-jr> da2ce7: it moved
125 2011-05-18 02:23:06 <da2ce7> fourm.bitcoin.org don't load for me.
126 2011-05-18 02:23:14 <ninjaneo> typo
127 2011-05-18 02:23:46 <da2ce7> (blush)
128 2011-05-18 02:23:57 <latregetic> couldn't you set some future block to be the new origin block, and recompute using the new hash to maintain the chain of transactions?
129 2011-05-18 02:24:12 <da2ce7> then need to put a redirect from bitcoin.org/smf to the forum.bitcoin.org.
130 2011-05-18 02:24:13 <ninjaneo> how would you transfer balance
131 2011-05-18 02:25:00 <latregetic> It would be the same system, except with some logic that says if block number >250,000, use SHA2-512 instead of SHA2-256
132 2011-05-18 02:25:21 <latregetic> so the transition is reasonably seamless and nobody loses value
133 2011-05-18 02:26:56 <da2ce7> latregetic, other than all the asic chips being made useless
134 2011-05-18 02:26:59 <latregetic> yeah, custom hardware is fucked, but the software in hardware stuff like the gpu miners are fine
135 2011-05-18 02:27:00 <latregetic> I meant from the standpoint of joe everydude who has a wallet app for his android
136 2011-05-18 02:27:07 <ninjaneo> everyone would have to update their client
137 2011-05-18 02:27:59 <ninjaneo> i dont see it going smoothly
138 2011-05-18 02:28:19 <da2ce7> ninjaneo, most people will update their clients within a year
139 2011-05-18 02:28:45 <ninjaneo> that aside some people would continue making transactions
140 2011-05-18 02:29:00 <ninjaneo> and you couldn't just be like "no sorry, invalid"
141 2011-05-18 02:29:14 <ninjaneo> because the transaction already could've been confirmed or whatever
142 2011-05-18 02:29:25 <ninjaneo> services/goods bought/rendered
143 2011-05-18 02:30:26 <da2ce7> well you are garrenteed to get a block chain spit at that point...
144 2011-05-18 02:30:38 <Latregetic> It wouldn't be a split, just a new origin block
145 2011-05-18 02:30:53 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * ra0218e6 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Catch more broken JSON - http://bit.ly/is84Ml
146 2011-05-18 02:30:57 <da2ce7> Latregetic, the non-updated miners will reject the sha512 blocks.
147 2011-05-18 02:31:02 <Latregetic> and yeah, a 'hey fuck-o, update your shit or it's stop working' would be handy
148 2011-05-18 02:31:20 <Latregetic> the miners have the duty to update thier shit more often than once every 2 months
149 2011-05-18 02:31:30 <da2ce7> no they don't.
150 2011-05-18 02:31:37 <Latregetic> any switchover would probably take 6 months to a year to design and implement
151 2011-05-18 02:31:48 <Latregetic> Then you're wasting power for nothing
152 2011-05-18 02:31:52 <da2ce7> it is perfectly resonaoble for a group of people ot reject the change.
153 2011-05-18 02:32:02 <Latregetic> when you see 'pool rejected all your shares', you'll notice something is wrong
154 2011-05-18 02:32:23 <Latregetic> If they reject the change due to laziness when a known cryptographic attack on the hash was public, then fuck them
155 2011-05-18 02:32:25 <ninjaneo> but say time lapses,
156 2011-05-18 02:32:30 <ninjaneo> the 512 system is now in place
157 2011-05-18 02:32:35 <ninjaneo> how do you get your balance
158 2011-05-18 02:32:49 <da2ce7> you will have a ballence in both chains.
159 2011-05-18 02:33:01 <ninjaneo> from 256 into the 512, if the reason for switching was 256 is compromised, its a fail
160 2011-05-18 02:33:07 <da2ce7> you get to spend your coins twice
161 2011-05-18 02:33:13 <ninjaneo> yea lol
162 2011-05-18 02:33:17 <ninjaneo> itd be fucked
163 2011-05-18 02:33:27 <Latregetic> Nah, the SHA-256 chain would be killed at some block number, then everything past that would be 256, except for the few legacy transactions
164 2011-05-18 02:33:32 <da2ce7> lol, I don't see sha256 being invalid anytime soon.
165 2011-05-18 02:33:42 <ninjaneo> you cant just kill it
166 2011-05-18 02:34:06 <da2ce7> people have to agree to move
167 2011-05-18 02:34:09 <Latregetic> Why not?  From what I understand of the Proof-of-work chain is that it's backwards compatible with pretty much any hash
168 2011-05-18 02:34:33 <da2ce7> Latregetic, becasue everyone needs to agree with the change.
169 2011-05-18 02:34:34 <luke-jr> Latregetic: no
170 2011-05-18 02:34:48 <luke-jr> Latregetic: if you crack SHA-256, you can *rewrite the history*
171 2011-05-18 02:34:53 <raep3d> in case a shortcut will be found (predict statistic input for nonces, what do i know) it will not shatter sha256 entirely
172 2011-05-18 02:35:04 <raep3d> the cryptographer will just make shitload of money and the cryptoanalysis will eventually go public
173 2011-05-18 02:35:25 <da2ce7> what you can do, is get a certified re-hash of all the past transactions...
174 2011-05-18 02:35:38 <da2ce7> using a stronger hash.
175 2011-05-18 02:35:41 <Latregetic> This switchover would only take place once a valid and potentially useful attack was made public
176 2011-05-18 02:35:56 <da2ce7> and everyone agrees on that 're-hash' of the histrory
177 2011-05-18 02:36:20 <raep3d> or just carry on using partially broken sha256
178 2011-05-18 02:36:31 <raep3d> only viable attack is to exploit the fact the hash is truncated
179 2011-05-18 02:36:39 <ninjaneo> yeah the only thing i see wokring is if everyone agreed to accept payments from some 256 bit address to a 512 bit, and then this was no longer allowed at some point, but you have to get every last person to agree
180 2011-05-18 02:36:42 <da2ce7> raep3d, this is ony if sha256 is completely broken
181 2011-05-18 02:36:52 <raep3d> completely is highly unlikely
182 2011-05-18 02:36:55 <Latregetic> Couldn't you just have a list of all the SHA-256 block hashes, then SHA2-512 it to like 12 zeros and call it good enough?
183 2011-05-18 02:36:57 <da2ce7> that I don't see happening
184 2011-05-18 02:37:05 <raep3d> even if md5 would be used it would work
185 2011-05-18 02:37:06 <Diablo-D3> uh
186 2011-05-18 02:37:13 <Diablo-D3> Latregetic: sha512 doesnt work that way
187 2011-05-18 02:37:17 <da2ce7> well at lesast until 256 bit quantum computers.
188 2011-05-18 02:37:21 <raep3d> the attack is pretty specific about the biases
189 2011-05-18 02:37:31 <Diablo-D3> sha512 doesnt use the sha256 formula and output more zeros
190 2011-05-18 02:37:45 <Diablo-D3> it basically s/int/long/ everywhere
191 2011-05-18 02:37:57 <da2ce7> sha512 uses larger starting roataion table.
192 2011-05-18 02:37:58 <raep3d> yep, sha512 is 64bit version of sha256
193 2011-05-18 02:37:59 <Diablo-D3> A-G, w0-15, input, output
194 2011-05-18 02:38:22 <Latregetic> Ok, how would the transition actually work then?
195 2011-05-18 02:38:34 <Latregetic> because my grasp of crypto shit seems shaky
196 2011-05-18 02:38:35 <Diablo-D3> what, for new hashes?
197 2011-05-18 02:38:43 <raep3d> Latregetic: for some block number predicted to be in 1-2 years in future
198 2011-05-18 02:38:44 <ninjaneo> there shall be no transition /me waves hand
199 2011-05-18 02:38:46 <raep3d> mandatory switchover
200 2011-05-18 02:38:48 <Diablo-D3> blocks have a version field.
201 2011-05-18 02:38:51 <da2ce7> um, they will just use a the longer hash.
202 2011-05-18 02:38:59 <raep3d> most of the network would be updated by then
203 2011-05-18 02:39:04 <da2ce7> but the clients need to be updated to accept em'
204 2011-05-18 02:39:14 <Diablo-D3> add a version that supports sha512 or whatever
205 2011-05-18 02:39:20 <Latregetic> Let's say an attack allows for collisions with some reasonably low overhead, and SHA-256 is no longer useful for proof-of-work
206 2011-05-18 02:39:21 <Diablo-D3> do it 2 years before you need it
207 2011-05-18 02:39:21 <raep3d> thats why you put the condition of certain block number
208 2011-05-18 02:39:22 <raep3d> from block N+2years use sha512
209 2011-05-18 02:39:28 <ninjaneo> start a bitcoin network with a different hash, and start generating, forget trying to combine a "compromised" system with an "uncompromised" one
210 2011-05-18 02:39:29 <Latregetic> That's what I figured
211 2011-05-18 02:39:33 <Diablo-D3> Latregetic: sha256 will ALWAYS be useful for it
212 2011-05-18 02:39:37 <Diablo-D3> at least for the next ten years
213 2011-05-18 02:39:37 <ninjaneo> and the fact that you want to switch to sha512 is funny
214 2011-05-18 02:39:54 <raep3d> Diablo-D3: you cant really predict advances in quantum cryptoanalysis
215 2011-05-18 02:40:03 <Latregetic> "uh oh, SHA-256 is going the way of MD5, better thing about moving", and change the protocol to "if block>300,000, use new hash"
216 2011-05-18 02:40:10 <ninjaneo> because its still sha, if they find a cryptanalysis for 256 i bet it applies to all the sha families
217 2011-05-18 02:40:15 <Diablo-D3> Latregetic: yup.
218 2011-05-18 02:40:15 <Latregetic> probably
219 2011-05-18 02:40:21 <Diablo-D3> ninjaneo: er no
220 2011-05-18 02:40:26 <Diablo-D3> sha1 is not related to sha2
221 2011-05-18 02:40:30 <da2ce7> better to move to a proven 'hard hash'
222 2011-05-18 02:40:30 <Diablo-D3> and sha3 isnt related to sha2
223 2011-05-18 02:40:33 <ninjaneo> lies
224 2011-05-18 02:40:41 <Diablo-D3> <-- GUY WHO WROTE MINER
225 2011-05-18 02:40:48 <ninjaneo> now you're full of it =p
226 2011-05-18 02:40:53 <raep3d> Diablo-D3: we know :)
227 2011-05-18 02:41:01 <Diablo-D3> I seem to have to remind people this.
228 2011-05-18 02:41:23 <Latregetic> haha
229 2011-05-18 02:41:44 <ninjaneo> so they throw in a shift right here and there
230 2011-05-18 02:41:46 <ninjaneo> big whoop
231 2011-05-18 02:41:58 <Latregetic> How hard would it be to update the protocol like that?
232 2011-05-18 02:42:03 <Latregetic> For a change a year down the line?
233 2011-05-18 02:42:07 <da2ce7> better to use a: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Provably_secure_cryptographic_hash_function
234 2011-05-18 02:42:08 <ninjaneo> we're already assuming sha256 is broken =p
235 2011-05-18 02:42:15 <da2ce7> Provably secure cryptographic hash function
236 2011-05-18 02:42:18 <raep3d> Latregetic: just new hashing class, and the if condition
237 2011-05-18 02:42:30 <raep3d> da2ce7: provably means proving n!=np
238 2011-05-18 02:42:31 <ninjaneo> provably
239 2011-05-18 02:42:34 <Latregetic> I meant more the logistics of getting everyone to switch
240 2011-05-18 02:42:43 <da2ce7> since speed of the hash dosn't really matter to bitcoin
241 2011-05-18 02:43:14 <raep3d> da2ce7: whole cryptography is based on our ignorance about higher math constructs
242 2011-05-18 02:43:32 <da2ce7> raep3d, not completely...
243 2011-05-18 02:43:52 <da2ce7> you can use multivarable proverably strong cypto... it just isn't as effecent.
244 2011-05-18 02:44:06 <Latregetic> The higher math is pretty mind bending, but if a thousand people fighting over huge academic e-penis points can't find a hole, it's probably not there
245 2011-05-18 02:44:06 <raep3d> to be concrete, boolean satisfability and pigeon hole principle
246 2011-05-18 02:44:22 <raep3d> which are school examples of n != np but there is no exact proof of that
247 2011-05-18 02:44:30 <Latregetic> or such a bastard to find that it'll take 10 years to poke a hole in it
248 2011-05-18 02:44:57 <raep3d> dont understand academic asspies
249 2011-05-18 02:45:03 <raep3d> underestimate
250 2011-05-18 02:45:04 <raep3d> :)
251 2011-05-18 02:45:05 <da2ce7> my favourate hash is Gr??stl
252 2011-05-18 02:45:10 <da2ce7> I think that it is really cool
253 2011-05-18 02:45:32 <Latregetic> yeah, I have a lot of respect for someone that can do an entire multivariable intergration in his head
254 2011-05-18 02:45:45 <Latregetic> certainly a hell of a lot better at it than I am
255 2011-05-18 02:45:46 <raep3d> da2ce7: yeah, just fatter version of everything seen so far
256 2011-05-18 02:46:01 <ninjaneo> hmm at 50% of the way through the keyspace if we all were recording the hashes we found, we could make some type of sieve and maybe that would be worth it
257 2011-05-18 02:46:04 <Latregetic> and if he can't find a hole to cash in on the million dollar grant prize, I bet most others can't either
258 2011-05-18 02:46:39 <raep3d> Latregetic: the thing is you dont need high math for cryptoanalysis. just linear equations and their approximation. and sat solver logic.
259 2011-05-18 02:47:07 <raep3d> md5 attack is highly heuristic/statistics based
260 2011-05-18 02:47:20 <Latregetic> For checking if it's a good hash, sure, but for whacking holes in it, you need some pretty clever math
261 2011-05-18 02:47:34 <Latregetic> isn't md5 a pretty simple hash though?
262 2011-05-18 02:47:47 <hachque> hi everyone
263 2011-05-18 02:47:49 <raep3d> no it is conceptually similiar to sha family
264 2011-05-18 02:47:51 <Latregetic> hell, don't they have rainbow tables for some of it?
265 2011-05-18 02:47:52 <horb> luke-jr would sell his own mom for a couple btc
266 2011-05-18 02:47:56 <ninjaneo> i think the whole idea of sha is that the math is easy, theres just lots of it
267 2011-05-18 02:48:01 <raep3d> however back then it was poorly understood the implications of linearity
268 2011-05-18 02:48:02 <ninjaneo> and theres no shortcuts
269 2011-05-18 02:48:19 <raep3d> ninjaneo: pretty much. you can find the shortcuts
270 2011-05-18 02:48:25 <raep3d> google why sha0 was ditched by NSA
271 2011-05-18 02:48:36 <raep3d> and sha1 is just 2 ops change from it
272 2011-05-18 02:48:37 <da2ce7> Grostl, is good becasue much of it can be shared with Rijndael
273 2011-05-18 02:48:52 <hachque> this might sound like a weird question, but in an adaptation of the bitcoin algorithm; is it possible to associate data with individual bitcoins at all?  would there theoretically be a way to do that?
274 2011-05-18 02:49:10 <raep3d> hachque: stenography is possible, but discouraged.
275 2011-05-18 02:49:17 <Latregetic> encode data in the address and ammounts, maybe?
276 2011-05-18 02:49:24 <raep3d> hachque: you risk getting your transactions ignored by miners if it hurts network performance
277 2011-05-18 02:49:29 <da2ce7> hachiya, you could sign some data with a bitcoin private key... and publish the signed data
278 2011-05-18 02:49:52 <hachque> raep3d: I meant more like custom data; in this case the adaptation would be for virtual items.  Problem is, that in order for the virtual items to change at all, you need to change the data.
279 2011-05-18 02:49:54 <da2ce7> then only there will be a balance tired to some data.
280 2011-05-18 02:50:07 <raep3d> hachque: just establish your own blockchain for it
281 2011-05-18 02:50:16 <raep3d> hachque: and let people trade/mine your own coins for it
282 2011-05-18 02:50:17 <hachque> Knowing that changing the BitCoins is impossible, I instead thought that it might be possible to put another BitCoin account inside a BitCoin if that makes sense
283 2011-05-18 02:50:23 <da2ce7> bitcoin is not good at a storage layer...
284 2011-05-18 02:50:33 <raep3d> hachque: more cruft in mainline bitcoin means wider attack surface
285 2011-05-18 02:50:34 <da2ce7> if you want a good storage layer: see freeent
286 2011-05-18 02:51:03 <hachque> da2ce7: No, the items would be tradable (hence basing off BitCoin)
287 2011-05-18 02:51:20 <hachque> I mean, I only need to know theoretically if it's possible
288 2011-05-18 02:51:26 <raep3d> hachque: if you just want to sell virtual items, stick addresses to them and thats it :)
289 2011-05-18 02:51:32 <da2ce7> well why don't you sign some data with a bitcoin private key then?
290 2011-05-18 02:51:34 <hachque> I have no plans to implement such a system
291 2011-05-18 02:51:58 <hachque> raep3d: You mean assign bitcoin addresses to the bitcoins?
292 2011-05-18 02:52:01 <da2ce7> then if you know the bitcoin address, you can check if the claimed data is true.
293 2011-05-18 02:52:17 <raep3d> hachque: your "items" are essentially bills. lookup bitbills and how they work
294 2011-05-18 02:52:19 <hachque> The part that got be confused was that you could transfer any denomination of BitCoins; you could transfer 0.1 of a BitCoin
295 2011-05-18 02:52:21 <raep3d> hachque: you can exploit similiar schema
296 2011-05-18 02:52:37 <hachque> So where does the associated data go in the case of a <1 transfer
297 2011-05-18 02:52:51 <hachque> Okay, I'll look at that
298 2011-05-18 02:54:19 <raep3d> da2ce7: grostl is huge deviation from traditional hash functions (that would be ripe, md, sha so far)
299 2011-05-18 02:54:39 <hachque> Oh hang on, so you can fully read the contents of a BitCoin account with the address?
300 2011-05-18 02:54:49 <raep3d> however after md5 attack cryptographers are open to novelties
301 2011-05-18 02:55:07 <horb> im gonna sue this guy in ralston
302 2011-05-18 02:55:08 <horb> why not
303 2011-05-18 02:55:36 <raep3d> hachque: whoever has the private key can move money from that address
304 2011-05-18 02:55:49 <noagendamarket> horb good luck with that
305 2011-05-18 02:55:55 <hachque> Okay, but I mean a third-party can look at the contents of the account without the private key right?
306 2011-05-18 02:56:13 <raep3d> hachque: sure, balances are always known.
307 2011-05-18 02:56:15 <hachque> So I can look at what items other people (or other items) would have without having control over the account
308 2011-05-18 02:56:27 <Latregetic> yeah, that's sort of the basis of the network
309 2011-05-18 02:56:33 <raep3d> they would have only bitcoins from that pow
310 2011-05-18 02:56:40 <hachque> I figured that essentially the hash of the block could be used to determine a type of those bitcoins associated with it
311 2011-05-18 02:56:45 <hachque> *type of those items
312 2011-05-18 02:56:46 <Latregetic> everyone knows the contents of accounts, and who owns what bitcoins, but nobody knows who actually owns those accounts
313 2011-05-18 02:56:46 <raep3d> item association should be done by pairing pubkey with external database
314 2011-05-18 02:57:06 <raep3d> hachque: the secret would be that nobody knows your pairing with address/item
315 2011-05-18 02:57:33 <raep3d> of course your system would be centralised, which is not problem considering its virtual world anyway.
316 2011-05-18 02:57:41 <hachque> raep3d: No, it can't be centralised :)
317 2011-05-18 02:58:00 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: you broke it!
318 2011-05-18 02:58:12 <hachque> raep3d: Why can't I just associated the address of the account with the item (to represent subitems)?
319 2011-05-18 02:58:40 <raep3d> hachque: everybody will see it. so it must be encrypted somehow.
320 2011-05-18 02:58:54 <raep3d> another possibility would be just BTC balance determining the item
321 2011-05-18 02:59:32 <hachque> raep3d: Wouldn't it be possible to just put the public key associated with item and then transfer the private key directly?
322 2011-05-18 02:59:35 <raep3d> hachque: it is possible to biggyback small amount of data inside your public key stored in the blockchain
323 2011-05-18 02:59:41 <hachque> Although, then the first person would still have the private key
324 2011-05-18 03:00:15 <hachque> Oh well, as long as it's possible to associate data with an individual BitCoin, the rest could theoretically be worked out later
325 2011-05-18 03:00:32 <hachque> I'm just double checking there isn't any fatal flaws in the idea to start with :)
326 2011-05-18 03:00:37 <hachque> Thanks everyone
327 2011-05-18 03:00:48 <raep3d> will be glad to play your btc mmo
328 2011-05-18 03:01:09 <hachque> Heh, don't expect to see it implemented :)
329 2011-05-18 03:01:17 <hachque> It's only for a game pitch for a university subject :P
330 2011-05-18 03:08:57 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * raa21426 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Whoops, fix LP spawn bug - http://bit.ly/ifOm9G
331 2011-05-18 03:10:18 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui: Stefan Thomas master * raf9f117 / index.html : Hide dialog HTML by default (It's visible during load otherwise.) - http://bit.ly/iunpgO
332 2011-05-18 03:13:40 <sacarlson> I'm getting this error in compile of bitcoin last git update obj/main.o: In function 'SHA256Transform': src/main.cpp:3349: undefined reference to 'CryptoPP::SHA256::Transform(unsigned int*, unsigned int const*)'
333 2011-05-18 03:13:55 <sacarlson> in windows XP mingw compiler
334 2011-05-18 03:14:27 <sacarlson> did I forget to add some new libs?
335 2011-05-18 03:17:21 <sacarlson> it compiles fine in ubuntu 10.04
336 2011-05-18 03:46:11 <dirtyfilthy> http://evilpacket.net/2011/may/17/stealing-bitcoins/
337 2011-05-18 03:46:32 <horb> Dashjr is an interesting surname
338 2011-05-18 03:46:35 <horb> how do you pronounce it?
339 2011-05-18 03:46:53 <ne0futur> dirtyfilthy: already fixed
340 2011-05-18 03:47:22 <dirtyfilthy> oh sweet
341 2011-05-18 03:51:25 <horb> dashjr !!
342 2011-05-18 03:51:34 <horb> my crystal ball reveals all
343 2011-05-18 03:52:20 <sparebitsplz> hey guys
344 2011-05-18 03:52:39 <horb> sup bruh
345 2011-05-18 03:52:57 <sparebitsplz> not much broseph, how you doing?
346 2011-05-18 03:53:38 <horb> not bad, dealing with scum who welch on a bet (ahem *luke dashjr*)
347 2011-05-18 03:53:47 <horb> is welch the right word hmm
348 2011-05-18 03:54:05 <sparebitsplz> aye, not good man. sorry to hear that
349 2011-05-18 03:54:11 <sparebitsplz> how much?
350 2011-05-18 03:54:16 <horb> 1 btc :)
351 2011-05-18 03:54:39 <sparebitsplz> nice
352 2011-05-18 03:54:51 <sparebitsplz> i only have .02 lolz
353 2011-05-18 03:55:23 <sparebitsplz> so what do you understand about BTC? all of it?
354 2011-05-18 03:55:27 <horb> you know theres a bitcoin bubble when rappers start rapping about all the bitcoins they have
355 2011-05-18 03:55:44 <sparebitsplz> are they really?
356 2011-05-18 03:55:51 <horb> haha no not yet.. someday tho
357 2011-05-18 03:56:16 <sparebitsplz> hahaha
358 2011-05-18 03:56:19 <sparebitsplz> yeah
359 2011-05-18 03:57:02 <sparebitsplz> im kinda excited about this whole BTC thing though
360 2011-05-18 03:57:07 <sparebitsplz> its really interesting
361 2011-05-18 03:58:40 <horb> btc rules
362 2011-05-18 03:59:09 <lolcat> sparebitsplz: Invest fast, before the price jumps again
363 2011-05-18 03:59:20 <horb> hehe i dunno
364 2011-05-18 04:00:11 <horb> if the main holders of btc are disciplined and dont sell off a lot then it has room to grow
365 2011-05-18 04:00:32 <horb> but if you had 50K btc, wouldnt you be selling off as much as you could at todays prices? and then go buy a house
366 2011-05-18 04:01:16 <lolcat> horb: Why not wait untill $16 and buy two?
367 2011-05-18 04:01:40 <horb> lolcat: well, the definition of game theory is avoiding regret...
368 2011-05-18 04:01:58 <horb> so.. if it didn't keep increasing and you lost a house as a result, that would be a lot of regret
369 2011-05-18 04:02:05 <lolcat> horb: I wont sell untill it is worth alot
370 2011-05-18 04:02:06 <chmod755> ;;remove 2558
371 2011-05-18 04:02:07 <gribble> Order remove successful, 1 orders removed.
372 2011-05-18 04:02:12 <chmod755> oops
373 2011-05-18 04:02:33 <horb> lolcat: yeah if enough ppl are long on btc thats good for investors
374 2011-05-18 04:03:24 <horb> to a person who doesn't have a house, 1 house is worth quite a bit (no more rent /mortgage forever!), and 2 houses are worth less than the utility of 1 house
375 2011-05-18 04:03:31 <horb> diminishing returns
376 2011-05-18 04:03:45 <horb> less than 2x
377 2011-05-18 04:03:49 <rhett> what does this irc network do?
378 2011-05-18 04:03:55 <rhett> sorry, the one in bitcoin
379 2011-05-18 04:04:06 <horb> transaction broadcasts
380 2011-05-18 04:04:22 <rhett> why is bitcoin using irc?  can't that be blocked?
381 2011-05-18 04:04:46 <sacarlson> horb: my parents houses property tax is more than my rent so don't always think it's free after you buy a house
382 2011-05-18 04:05:07 <horb> sacarlson, true but youd still have enough left over for a lifetime of prop tax
383 2011-05-18 04:05:32 <horb> but its usually on the order of 0-$1500 / yr
384 2011-05-18 04:05:35 <horb> how are they paying so much in prop tax
385 2011-05-18 04:05:55 <sacarlson> horb: I'm not sure my parents house went from a value of 350K USD to 75K USD still has to pay that tax though
386 2011-05-18 04:06:34 <horb> rhett: i dont know if theres a fallback but as far as p2p nets go, freenode is one of the best options out there
387 2011-05-18 04:06:59 <sacarlson> horb: rents is cheap in thailand dude
388 2011-05-18 04:07:17 <horb> nice.. how much
389 2011-05-18 04:08:05 <rhett> oh right, the government couldn't shut down freenode?
390 2011-05-18 04:08:14 <sacarlson> horb: depends most my friends pay 4000baht/month or about $125usd/month
391 2011-05-18 04:08:22 <horb> thats bahtaculous
392 2011-05-18 04:08:37 <horb> how much per diem for a girl
393 2011-05-18 04:08:56 <horb> rhett: cheney uses freenode to trade warez.. so theyd be pissing him off majorly if they did that
394 2011-05-18 04:09:06 <sacarlson> horb: I get the long term contracts of 10K baht/month on girls
395 2011-05-18 04:09:15 <horb> sweet
396 2011-05-18 04:09:22 <lolcat> sacarlson: on girls?
397 2011-05-18 04:09:25 <sacarlson> horb: longer term they pay you
398 2011-05-18 04:09:38 <horb> i knew a guy who literally had sex every night for 30 days in pattaya
399 2011-05-18 04:09:42 <horb> bar girls
400 2011-05-18 04:10:01 <sacarlson> horb: offtopic
401 2011-05-18 04:10:16 <horb> rhett: well there are lots of freenode servers in different countries.. youd need jurisdiction in each one
402 2011-05-18 04:10:26 <rhett> i heard of guys who can have sex every night for free...
403 2011-05-18 04:10:37 <horb> haha.. theyre not on irc
404 2011-05-18 04:10:42 <horb> theyre out having sex
405 2011-05-18 04:10:52 <sparebitcoinsplz> lol
406 2011-05-18 04:11:20 <horb> he claimed he had about 60 girls in 30 days.. impressive
407 2011-05-18 04:11:26 <lolcat> When my girlfriend is around, I can have sex every houre
408 2011-05-18 04:11:38 <lolcat> horb: Not as impressive when they all look the same
409 2011-05-18 04:12:22 <chmod755> I think bitcoin also needs an extension like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Peer_Discovery
410 2011-05-18 04:13:16 <chmod755> is this #bitcoin-dev or #sex-dev ?
411 2011-05-18 04:13:16 <sacarlson> lolcat: horb: sound like you should vist #sexthailand freenode chat site
412 2011-05-18 04:13:25 <gjs278> #lies-dev
413 2011-05-18 04:13:27 <lolcat> sacarlson: Oo
414 2011-05-18 04:13:31 <XX01XX> cake-dev
415 2011-05-18 04:13:44 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
416 2011-05-18 04:13:44 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":8.1001,"low":6.9799,"vol":33494,"buy":7.11,"sell":7.26,"last":7.13}}
417 2011-05-18 04:13:48 <horb> but cmon.. why else would anyone go to thailand
418 2011-05-18 04:13:57 <horb> (besides the cheap rent / pad thai)
419 2011-05-18 04:14:07 <XX01XX> you can get a lobster dinner for like a dollar
420 2011-05-18 04:14:09 <lolcat> horb: bitcoins
421 2011-05-18 04:16:57 <sacarlson> chmod755: I didn't know ipv4 had multicast I thought that IPV6 was needed,  mulicast I would think is the way
422 2011-05-18 04:18:06 <sacarlson> chmod755: but I guess it would be trivial for an ISP or a gov to prevent the activity on a single mulicast channel
423 2011-05-18 04:19:33 <sacarlson> and no one is having problem in windows compile with 'CryptoPP::SHA256::Transform(unsigned int*, unsigned int const*)' yet?  must just be me
424 2011-05-18 04:19:55 <Abhish> Wow, what did I click into? Trying to buy a hooker with bitcoin?
425 2011-05-18 04:21:44 <sacarlson> Abhish: I sent them all to my #pimps freenode chat
426 2011-05-18 04:22:07 <sacarlson> to get them the best prices
427 2011-05-18 04:22:13 <rhett> i just joined the bitcoin irc channel on lfnet.org
428 2011-05-18 04:22:16 <rhett> 7000 users
429 2011-05-18 04:22:26 <chmod755> rhett: heh
430 2011-05-18 04:22:26 <horb> wow
431 2011-05-18 04:22:30 <sacarlson> rhett: wow normaly only 3000
432 2011-05-18 04:22:38 <rhett> so, the idea is, if the government takes that, people just put a new irc address in their clients?
433 2011-05-18 04:23:18 <horb> yeah
434 2011-05-18 04:23:28 <horb> i dont know if you can override in the settings, i assume you can
435 2011-05-18 04:23:51 <sacarlson> rhett: but we have the TOR support if you don't want gov to be watching you
436 2011-05-18 04:24:12 <sacarlson> horb: yes you can by using -connect
437 2011-05-18 04:24:19 <rhett> sacarlson, what do you mean by that?   I'm familiar with TOR
438 2011-05-18 04:24:48 <sacarlson> rhett: well if your familiar with it then you don't need me to explain it
439 2011-05-18 04:25:04 <rhett> i don't understan "we have the TOR support"
440 2011-05-18 04:25:33 <midnightmagic> well, BlueMatt, I guess there will now no longer be 21mil coins. There will be 21mil-1 satoshi..
441 2011-05-18 04:26:02 <sacarlson> rhett: tor is a method to evade detection from followers so use TOR to keep your bitcoin anonimos
442 2011-05-18 04:26:32 <rhett> ahhh
443 2011-05-18 04:26:40 <horb> does the client break a tie between block chains by looking at the difficulty level?
444 2011-05-18 04:26:43 <rhett> i wonder how many tor nodes are run by the government
445 2011-05-18 04:27:01 <horb> if there was a split due to a network goin down, youd end up with multiple chains growing at the same rate (1 block / 10 min)
446 2011-05-18 04:27:13 <horb> how does the client tiebreak
447 2011-05-18 04:30:28 <XX01XX> horb... whichever is longer or harder
448 2011-05-18 04:30:40 <sacarlson> horb: irc is just for bootstrap once connected to one node you never need IRC, in fact you already don't need IRC to start with the 320 hardcoded IP in bitcoin
449 2011-05-18 04:31:10 <horb> longer then harder i assume
450 2011-05-18 04:31:33 <rhett> bitcoin should save peers to connect to each time it connects
451 2011-05-18 04:31:34 <XX01XX> horb... actually it's agregate difficulty since the split..
452 2011-05-18 04:31:44 <rhett> the client
453 2011-05-18 04:31:57 <rhett> so all the clients have random ones from the same pool
454 2011-05-18 04:32:02 <horb> ahh sacarlson
455 2011-05-18 04:32:07 <rhett> everyone will mostly stay connected to each other
456 2011-05-18 04:32:11 <sacarlson> rhett: it does that to in the db but bootstrap assumes you have no ip in you db yet
457 2011-05-18 04:32:47 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
458 2011-05-18 04:32:48 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":8,"low":6.9799,"vol":33350,"buy":7.1402,"sell":7.2577,"last":7.1401}}
459 2011-05-18 04:32:55 <rhett> what about ports, sacarlson ?
460 2011-05-18 04:33:01 <sacarlson> rhett: and also when you come on you IRC in to provide access to others that might be bootstraping in
461 2011-05-18 04:33:09 <rhett> can the government block the ports it uses?
462 2011-05-18 04:33:40 <sacarlson> rhett: ports 8333 and 18333 are used for listen by default on main and testnet
463 2011-05-18 04:33:49 <sacarlson> rhett: but can be changed
464 2011-05-18 04:34:25 <rhett> why not port 80?
465 2011-05-18 04:34:27 <rhett> harder to block
466 2011-05-18 04:34:39 <sacarlson> rhett: you can set it to port 80 if you want with -port
467 2011-05-18 04:34:44 <rhett> i guess a lot of people run port 80 servers
468 2011-05-18 04:35:01 <sacarlson> rhett: no most people have web sites on port 80 so use something else
469 2011-05-18 04:35:21 <midnightmagic> http://blockexplorer.com/block/0000000000004c78956f8643262f3622acf22486b120421f893c0553702ba7b5  <-- BlueMatt thanks for the inspiration.
470 2011-05-18 04:35:23 <rhett> sacarlson, do you work on the code?
471 2011-05-18 04:35:53 <sacarlson> rhett: yes I have my own version of the code that I work on and help another group called #freecoin
472 2011-05-18 04:36:04 <horb> whats the diff between freecoin and bitcoin
473 2011-05-18 04:36:21 <rhett> sacarlson, are freecoins like bitcoins?
474 2011-05-18 04:37:05 <sacarlson> horb: at present not much difference since it's not finished but my version of what I hope freecoin will help support includes mulit crypto chain support
475 2011-05-18 04:37:33 <da2ce7> the bitcoin site is still not workign for me
476 2011-05-18 04:37:40 <da2ce7> has there been a dns change?
477 2011-05-18 04:37:44 <sacarlson> rhett: freecoin is just another client that will work with bitcoin chains
478 2011-05-18 04:38:01 <horb> interesting
479 2011-05-18 04:38:04 <justmoon> da2ce7: you mean bitcoin.org?
480 2011-05-18 04:38:12 <da2ce7> yeah
481 2011-05-18 04:38:24 <sacarlson> rhett: with new features not yet supported on bitcoin like p2p escrow and other
482 2011-05-18 04:38:26 <justmoon> works for me just fine, hmm
483 2011-05-18 04:38:28 <XX01XX> sacarlson... will it send and recieve arbitrary tokens?
484 2011-05-18 04:38:36 <XX01XX> or just bitcoin?
485 2011-05-18 04:38:42 <justmoon> bitcoin.org has address 216.34.181.97
486 2011-05-18 04:38:48 <sacarlson> XX01XX: I'm not sure what an arbitrary token is
487 2011-05-18 04:39:07 <sacarlson> XX01XX: you can extract the root key to make a token if that's what you mean
488 2011-05-18 04:39:13 <rhett> what ever happened to freenet?
489 2011-05-18 04:39:21 <XX01XX> rhett... still kickin'
490 2011-05-18 04:39:38 <rhett> shouldn't freenet be better than tor?
491 2011-05-18 04:39:43 <sacarlson> rhett: freenet?  I have a freenet.surething.biz  that I suport
492 2011-05-18 04:39:44 <Raccoon> *BREAKING NEWS*  A group of 26 Bit-Miners trapped in a market collapse.  Wives and loved ones huddle together and pray for their safe cashout.  1LMsQEKJrpmL24bZoWduq3ZdX7jvzYxJMx
493 2011-05-18 04:40:10 <horb> chilean bitminers
494 2011-05-18 04:40:41 <da2ce7> the bitcoin site is only fucking up if I visit it via https.
495 2011-05-18 04:41:07 <justmoon> da2ce7: ah yeah, https not working for me either
496 2011-05-18 04:41:27 <da2ce7> just thought it was down, as I'm using https everwhere with the bitcoin rules.
497 2011-05-18 05:02:17 <Abhish> WHy is the bitcoin development seemingly so slow? Is it due to the complexity of the encryptions?
498 2011-05-18 05:03:21 <justmoon> Abhish: I wouldn't call it slow actually, but yeah, more developers who understand the core stuff would be nice
499 2011-05-18 05:03:38 <sacarlson> Abhish: slow?  it's too fast for me 2 days after I branch and find a bug it's already has new updates that I have to find new problems in
500 2011-05-18 05:04:33 <jrabbit> http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2011/05/pakistan_fires_on_tw.php
501 2011-05-18 05:05:16 <sacarlson> Abhish: many of us like me are just learning
502 2011-05-18 05:07:25 <sacarlson> Abhish: if you feel bitcoin is missing something you want that you didn't tell us about maybe that's why it's so slow
503 2011-05-18 05:08:46 <AntiVigilante> how can I use the gui on debian 64bit?
504 2011-05-18 05:09:05 <AntiVigilante> debian doesn't have wxwidgets 2.9
505 2011-05-18 05:10:28 <amiller> i think the word 'bitcoin' and the word 'mining' are harmful to understanding
506 2011-05-18 05:10:36 <amiller> because there aren't really any coins themselves
507 2011-05-18 05:11:22 <amiller> and because mining doesn't "find coins", it finds lucky winning lotto tickets but gets btc just by convention
508 2011-05-18 05:14:33 <sacarlson> AntiVigilante: no as far as ubuntu for a gui I use the spesmilo gui rpc to drive the latiest bitcoind for ubuntu https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Spesmilo
509 2011-05-18 05:15:46 <sacarlson> AntiVigilante: 64bit that's another question I'm not sure of,  as soon as I get my windows 32bit version running I plan to package an easy to install ubuntu 10.04 - 11.04 package
510 2011-05-18 05:17:59 <AntiVigilante> amiller: miners don't find coins they extract prospectors find coins
511 2011-05-18 05:18:19 <amiller> the miners find something of inherent worth though
512 2011-05-18 05:18:30 <AntiVigilante> i bought duapers
513 2011-05-18 05:18:35 <AntiVigilante> er diapers
514 2011-05-18 05:18:39 <AntiVigilante> case closed
515 2011-05-18 05:19:05 <AntiVigilante> currencies run on culture not trade
516 2011-05-18 05:19:23 <amiller> this is just about getting across the concepts of how it works
517 2011-05-18 05:19:34 <amiller> the important thing about miners is that more miners means more strength against colluders
518 2011-05-18 05:20:02 <amiller> i've been using the word "participating" instead of "mining" and i think it's clearer, but i bet there's a more interesting metaphor
519 2011-05-18 05:20:55 <amiller> the 'there are no coins' point is more fundamental
520 2011-05-18 05:27:56 <topi`> but people need some tangible concepts in order to understand such a complex scheme as the bitcoin
521 2011-05-18 05:28:10 <amiller> yes i agree, but misleading tangible concepts are the worst
522 2011-05-18 05:28:19 <amiller> 'coins' are tangible concept, and there are no coins anywhere to be found in bitcoin
523 2011-05-18 05:28:54 <topi`> maybe exchange 'coin' with 'gold'?
524 2011-05-18 05:29:01 <amiller> but there's no gold either
525 2011-05-18 05:29:04 <topi`> or something other which is scarce
526 2011-05-18 05:29:47 <amiller> i think the best metaphor is an account table
527 2011-05-18 05:29:55 <amiller> a list of balances for account numbers
528 2011-05-18 05:30:16 <amiller> where the entire network agrees on the 'book', the history of balances and trades
529 2011-05-18 05:30:27 <Gozalie> guy i flashed my gpu, now I can even get into windows, it started with black screen, how do i revert ?
530 2011-05-18 05:30:49 <amiller> the block chain is the tangible bit - you can see the whole thing on blockexplorer.com
531 2011-05-18 05:30:49 <Gozalie> how do i restore my flash to original ? i made a backup
532 2011-05-18 05:35:51 <midnightmagic> lol I like that. "Gandhi would use Bitcoins."
533 2011-05-18 05:50:29 <topi`> amiller: accounting brings you an image of a centralized office somewhere, and this is far from the truth :)
534 2011-05-18 06:13:08 <diki> I want to run pushpool this type of server...how my PCs are currently set up
535 2011-05-18 06:13:11 <diki> Will it work? http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/2821/unledsz.jpg
536 2011-05-18 06:14:30 <diki> It is interesting though..my english may not be that good...but on this irc server i always miss a word or two....
537 2011-05-18 06:15:47 <mosi> work|diki: i'd never recommend internet connection sharing
538 2011-05-18 06:16:00 <diki> well..currently, that is how it is
539 2011-05-18 06:16:09 <mosi> work|get a router with a built in switch
540 2011-05-18 06:16:19 <diki> would my method not work?
541 2011-05-18 06:16:19 <mosi> work|plug PC1 + PC2 straight into it
542 2011-05-18 06:16:27 <mosi> work|im not saying it won't work
543 2011-05-18 06:16:30 <diki> well i can't routers are expensive
544 2011-05-18 06:17:05 <mosi> work|im saying i highly recommend not doing it that way
545 2011-05-18 06:17:17 <diki> It's been like that since like 2010 feb
546 2011-05-18 06:17:22 <diki> minus the VM
547 2011-05-18 06:18:01 <mosi> work|ok here:
548 2011-05-18 06:18:05 <mosi> work|yes it will work
549 2011-05-18 06:18:16 <diki> anyway....the 5850s are being bought out..i am hearing rumors that not much are left of the 5k series
550 2011-05-18 06:19:03 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
551 2011-05-18 06:19:25 <mosi> work|;;bc,mtgox ticker
552 2011-05-18 06:19:29 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.98,"low":6.9799,"vol":34538,"buy":7.2101,"sell":7.289,"last":7.3197}}
553 2011-05-18 06:19:30 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.98,"low":6.9799,"vol":34538,"buy":7.2101,"sell":7.289,"last":7.3197}}
554 2011-05-18 06:19:51 <diki> well...the only thing left to do on PC1 is to forward some ports
555 2011-05-18 06:20:39 <diki> are there any block files for download, cause the -rescan is taking forever
556 2011-05-18 06:20:51 <diki> like an archive
557 2011-05-18 06:20:55 <mosi> work|do ./bitcoind getinfo
558 2011-05-18 06:21:03 <mosi> work|see if your block number matches the current one
559 2011-05-18 06:21:13 <diki> i am currently downloading them
560 2011-05-18 06:21:21 <diki> i am at 93k on the VM
561 2011-05-18 06:21:27 <mosi> work|just wait it out
562 2011-05-18 06:21:42 <diki> i heard a user saying he found an archive of the 120k blocks
563 2011-05-18 06:21:50 <diki> that would really help
564 2011-05-18 06:41:11 <sipa_> sacarlson: yes, it's fixed
565 2011-05-18 06:43:49 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
566 2011-05-18 06:44:00 <midnightmagic> dammit
567 2011-05-18 06:58:28 <diki> How do i fix this upstream RPC error???
568 2011-05-18 07:11:35 <diki> anyone awake lol?
569 2011-05-18 07:12:06 <sipa> no, sorry
570 2011-05-18 07:12:29 <diki> Oh hey there sipa. Mind telling me why i get json_rpc_call failed?
571 2011-05-18 07:12:34 <diki> on pushpool
572 2011-05-18 07:12:58 <sipa> i don't know pushpool
573 2011-05-18 07:16:43 <diki> I am always getting that error and i have no idea what is the cause of it
574 2011-05-18 07:21:13 <diki> I am willing to pay someone one bitcoin to tell me how to make it work
575 2011-05-18 07:21:20 <da2ce7> lol
576 2011-05-18 07:21:27 <diki> not much since i am saving for a new card
577 2011-05-18 07:27:17 <Latregetic> what's your setup>
578 2011-05-18 07:28:27 <Latregetic> your VM should be set up to be on the same subnet as the other PCs, and have no NAT or software firewall between the systems like you can have on some VM hosts
579 2011-05-18 07:32:11 <diki> i've bridged the VM with my PC2
580 2011-05-18 07:32:34 <Latregetic> through windows or something?
581 2011-05-18 07:32:49 <diki> The problem i am getting is from pushpool giving me http request failed. And the miner giving me json_rpc_call failed
582 2011-05-18 07:33:50 <Latregetic> have you checked if the ports you're using are being forwarded?
583 2011-05-18 07:34:08 <diki> i am using the miner directly in the VM
584 2011-05-18 07:34:32 <diki> i am able to connect to push pool via the port. but i am getting HTTP request failed: The requested URL returner error 401
585 2011-05-18 07:34:52 <diki> i tried the password from my pool_worker table, from the bitcoin.conf file...nothing
586 2011-05-18 07:36:18 <sipa> 401? unauthorized?
587 2011-05-18 07:36:24 <diki> yup
588 2011-05-18 07:36:38 <diki> but user/pass combo is correct
589 2011-05-18 07:36:59 <Latregetic> regenerate the user/pass
590 2011-05-18 07:37:04 <Latregetic> and reload the daemon
591 2011-05-18 07:37:07 <UukGoblin> hmm, I wonder if 1MB limit per block will be enough in future
592 2011-05-18 07:37:36 <Latregetic> probably not
593 2011-05-18 07:37:40 <UukGoblin> my rough calculations show that it'll allow only about 350k transactions per day
594 2011-05-18 07:37:49 <Latregetic> pretty much
595 2011-05-18 07:38:01 <Latregetic> Which is peanuts compared to some other systems
596 2011-05-18 07:38:06 <UukGoblin> yeah
597 2011-05-18 07:38:25 <Latregetic> On the plus side, it's probably pretty easy to patch in large block support for the miners
598 2011-05-18 07:38:42 <UukGoblin> but I heard that >1MB blocks will be rejected by others
599 2011-05-18 07:38:49 <UukGoblin> or did I hear that wrong?
600 2011-05-18 07:39:21 <eps1> i think the plan is to co-ordinate a mass change to the protocol
601 2011-05-18 07:39:31 <eps1> it will be a good problem to have any way
602 2011-05-18 07:39:43 <UukGoblin> hm
603 2011-05-18 07:39:52 <UukGoblin> that has happened in the past once
604 2011-05-18 07:39:58 <UukGoblin> but back then difficulty was ~20
605 2011-05-18 07:40:07 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: lol, so good
606 2011-05-18 07:45:19 <sacarlson> sipa_: ya I should have checked git first,  that fixed my irc problem thanks
607 2011-05-18 07:49:07 <diki> damn....i somehow made it work...
608 2011-05-18 07:49:27 <eps1> diki: it was me that fixed it, 1 BTC please
609 2011-05-18 08:02:22 <anarchyx> ;;bc,stats
610 2011-05-18 08:02:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 124841 | Current Difficulty: 157426.20628986 | Next Difficulty At Block: 124991 | Next Difficulty In: 150 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 14 hours, 40 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 239116.78622054
611 2011-05-18 08:02:50 <Latregetic> diki:  so who gets the bounty?
612 2011-05-18 08:03:01 <diki> send me your address
613 2011-05-18 08:03:09 <gribble> Error: "bc,bitomat" is not a valid command.
614 2011-05-18 08:03:09 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,bitomat
615 2011-05-18 08:19:02 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,calc 300000
616 2011-05-18 08:19:02 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 300000 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 3 weeks, 5 days, 2 hours, 3 minutes, and 21 seconds
617 2011-05-18 08:21:10 <khalahan_> ;;bc,calc 300000 290
618 2011-05-18 08:21:12 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
619 2011-05-18 08:28:57 <eps1> ;;bc,stats
620 2011-05-18 08:28:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 124846 | Current Difficulty: 157426.20628986 | Next Difficulty At Block: 124991 | Next Difficulty In: 145 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 14 hours, 10 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 239279.66593398
621 2011-05-18 08:33:19 <da2ce7> we need to get https back and running on the bitcoin.org website!
622 2011-05-18 08:33:35 <da2ce7> sirius ^
623 2011-05-18 08:37:55 <aphelion> ;;bc,mtgox
624 2011-05-18 08:37:55 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.98,"low":6.9799,"vol":35298,"buy":7.1601,"sell":7.2,"last":7.1603}}
625 2011-05-18 08:48:34 <euclid> ;;bc,gen 1000000
626 2011-05-18 08:48:34 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 6.3892054842 BTC per day and 0.266216895175 BTC per hour.
627 2011-05-18 09:32:10 <Speeder> So.... how we fix the pool oligopoly problem?
628 2011-05-18 09:34:21 <sipa> by supporting small pools
629 2011-05-18 09:39:00 <sacarlson> I'm getting this with mingw build in windows XP src/main.cpp:3168: undefined reference to 'CryptoPP::SHA256::Transform(unsigned int*, unsigned int const*)' on  git commitish b201c1f60020763b102d259f6346305dd668c7eb  can anyone confirm?
630 2011-05-18 09:39:14 <BlueMatt> NACK
631 2011-05-18 09:39:53 <sacarlson> BlueMatt is that a code  NACK ?
632 2011-05-18 09:40:06 <roconnor> sipa: If there is no incentive to use small pools, people won't.
633 2011-05-18 09:40:07 <BlueMatt> aka, nothing wrong with the repo
634 2011-05-18 09:40:12 <BlueMatt> a problem on your end
635 2011-05-18 09:40:48 <sipa> roconnor: unfortunately, pools have a network effect
636 2011-05-18 09:41:05 <sipa> i.e., its benefits grow as more people use one
637 2011-05-18 09:41:22 <roconnor> Hence Speeder's worry
638 2011-05-18 09:41:52 <Speeder> yep
639 2011-05-18 09:42:08 <Speeder> and all those people can be knocked out of the network by DDoSing the pool operator.
640 2011-05-18 09:42:28 <sipa> all those people should also be aware of that risk
641 2011-05-18 09:42:39 <sacarlson> BlueMatt I'll go back one step since it seemed to compile ok in this envirnment with 0c97aa9e141f5c23dc9f80e5fb4c8297d8a6b4dd maybe I changed some envirnment thing I forgot about
642 2011-05-18 09:42:47 <Speeder> Thus, if someone DDoS deepbit + second place or third place pools (any of them summed with deepbit has more than 50%) you can hijack the network.
643 2011-05-18 09:43:04 <Speeder> sipa unfortunately, the way that bitcoin has spread, make that do not happen
644 2011-05-18 09:43:12 <Speeder> yesterday, my sister MENTIONED bitcoin to a friend.
645 2011-05-18 09:43:33 <sipa> and now he's mining?
646 2011-05-18 09:43:49 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: nothing of significance changed betwee 0c97aa and b201c1
647 2011-05-18 09:43:49 <Speeder> 30 minutes later, he was mentioning how he do not understood anything about bitcoin, but he liked his GPU had 285 mhash and that he was going to mine in a pool
648 2011-05-18 09:44:11 <Speeder> And that is only the most recent example
649 2011-05-18 09:44:13 <sacarlson> BlueMatt ya just like one line of code so it should break the same if I go back
650 2011-05-18 09:44:38 <sipa> Speeder: hijacking the network requires a lot more than DDoS'ing some pools - you need to have a large % of the remaining network power
651 2011-05-18 09:44:56 <sipa> and if pools go down, i don't think it'll take hours before most miners have switches somewhere else
652 2011-05-18 09:45:16 <Speeder> Somehow people are not seeing bitcoin as a currency, they are seeing bitcoin as a get rich quick thing.
653 2011-05-18 09:45:24 <Speeder> sipa they won't switch
654 2011-05-18 09:45:52 <sipa> sure? i often switch between three pools
655 2011-05-18 09:45:57 <sipa> if one shows problems
656 2011-05-18 09:46:03 <Speeder> sipa most miners do not know shit about bitcoin, they are random people, that are clicking "generate" in their clients, and then joining the easiest to join pool with a GPU miner software
657 2011-05-18 09:46:13 <Speeder> they have no idea HOW to change pools
658 2011-05-18 09:46:21 <Speeder> (or even what a pool actually do)
659 2011-05-18 09:46:35 <sipa> if they click 'generate' button, they're likely not to have any significant amount of hash power :D
660 2011-05-18 09:47:08 <sipa> i wasn't talking about the small miners, but those who do it semi-professionaly, as i assume most of the hash power is there
661 2011-05-18 09:47:08 <Speeder> sipa they know that, then they ask what they do, and someone explain they need to join a big pool with a GPU miner software
662 2011-05-18 09:47:19 <Speeder> they follwo a step-by-step tutorial, and then they are locked into a pool
663 2011-05-18 09:47:22 <Speeder> and they will never leave it
664 2011-05-18 09:47:54 <Speeder> you are underestimating the power and the stupidity of common people
665 2011-05-18 09:48:03 <Speeder> you do not realize that we in the forums and irc are actually a elite
666 2011-05-18 09:48:13 <sipa> sure
667 2011-05-18 09:49:10 <sipa> i do realize that - i'm just saying that in the future, mining will become a more and more specialized business, and as long as the big players in the market (but hopefully those are not too small in number) know what they're doing, there is no problem
668 2011-05-18 09:50:33 <Speeder> sipa you only need to DDoS them and have a computer better than all small-players summed
669 2011-05-18 09:50:52 <Speeder> you do not need a 20 million computer (as someone in the forum estimated), you only need a 1 million one and a DDoS
670 2011-05-18 09:51:09 <Speeder> that is my worry
671 2011-05-18 09:51:52 <roconnor> Speeder: taking out the large pool doesn't reduce the difficulty though
672 2011-05-18 09:52:08 <sipa> the difficulty is irrelevant for the security of the network
673 2011-05-18 09:52:12 <sipa> it is about % of hash power
674 2011-05-18 09:52:17 <Speeder> roconnor:  difficulty does not matter, you only need to mine faster than the real miners
675 2011-05-18 09:52:26 <noagendamarket> it means you can get more than the remaining power
676 2011-05-18 09:52:28 <Speeder> if you mine faster, you can cause a block split
677 2011-05-18 09:52:39 <Blitzboom> >Somehow people are not seeing bitcoin as a currency, they are seeing bitcoin as a get rich quick thing.
678 2011-05-18 09:52:40 <Blitzboom> this
679 2011-05-18 09:52:44 <roconnor> Speeder: if you want to undo transactions the difficulty matters
680 2011-05-18 09:52:50 <Blitzboom> and thats why i welcome increasing difficulty
681 2011-05-18 09:52:54 <sipa> roconnor: no you it doesn't
682 2011-05-18 09:52:58 <Blitzboom> soon, their ATI GPUs will be useless
683 2011-05-18 09:53:08 <Blitzboom> unless they have lots of them
684 2011-05-18 09:53:08 <Speeder> roconnor:  you are assuming someone attacking bitcoin will do it for the money
685 2011-05-18 09:53:10 <sipa> you need to spend more work than what was spent in the branch of the chain you want to revert
686 2011-05-18 09:53:15 <sipa> that's all
687 2011-05-18 09:53:23 <sipa> and difficulty does not matter for that, only number of hashes
688 2011-05-18 09:53:36 <roconnor> sipa: right, and that work depends on the recent difficulty
689 2011-05-18 09:53:40 <sipa> no
690 2011-05-18 09:53:43 <sipa> work = number of hashes
691 2011-05-18 09:53:49 <Speeder> roconnor:  if can use a chain split to make the network useless for a while, or untrusworthy, this will make the USD value of BTC plummet as people panic
692 2011-05-18 09:53:50 <roconnor> I don't get it
693 2011-05-18 09:54:11 <sipa> roconnor: the branch with the highest amount of summed difficulties wins
694 2011-05-18 09:54:30 <roconnor> let say the recent difficulty is X
695 2011-05-18 09:54:30 <Speeder> roconnor:  the difficulty affect the speed of everyone.
696 2011-05-18 09:54:31 <sipa> and sum of difficulties in a chain is proportional to the number of hashes done
697 2011-05-18 09:54:38 <Speeder> roconnor:  if you are still faster, you can still do shit
698 2011-05-18 09:54:45 <Blitzboom> Speeder: this shit really sets me up
699 2011-05-18 09:54:46 <roconnor> let's say the last 3 block of the chain are A B C
700 2011-05-18 09:55:01 <noagendamarket> ddos all the pools and start mining with a data center = profit
701 2011-05-18 09:55:01 <roconnor> then the total difficulty of the last 3 blocks is about 3X
702 2011-05-18 09:55:06 <Blitzboom> our network hashrate has been infiltrated with stupidity
703 2011-05-18 09:55:06 <sipa> yes
704 2011-05-18 09:55:17 <Speeder> Blitzboom:  yep
705 2011-05-18 09:55:32 <Blitzboom> perhaps mining is TOO decentralized
706 2011-05-18 09:55:33 <roconnor> if you want to revert those 3 blocks, you need to spend 3X work, and knocking out the big pool won't reduct that amount of work you need to do.
707 2011-05-18 09:55:36 <Blitzboom> common people should not mine
708 2011-05-18 09:55:45 <noagendamarket> all the sheep will just join the largest pool
709 2011-05-18 09:55:52 <sipa> roconnor: the big pool will keep working on chain A B C
710 2011-05-18 09:56:00 <sipa> roconnor: and you need to "outmine" him
711 2011-05-18 09:56:02 <Blitzboom> too much decentralization resulting in too much centralization
712 2011-05-18 09:56:04 <Blitzboom> how ironic
713 2011-05-18 09:56:10 <sipa> in number of hashes
714 2011-05-18 09:56:18 <roconnor> sure, but under Speeder's scenrio the big pool is out of commission and isn't mining anymore.
715 2011-05-18 09:56:24 <noagendamarket> yep
716 2011-05-18 09:56:34 <sipa> so, it's the % of hash power that matters
717 2011-05-18 09:56:50 <sipa> if you knock out the big pool, the total hash power decreases, increasing your chance to get 50%
718 2011-05-18 09:56:54 <noagendamarket> take all the pools away and what does that leave ?
719 2011-05-18 09:57:00 <sipa> but whether or not that influences difficulty is irrelevant
720 2011-05-18 09:57:21 <roconnor> sipa: yes, but if you get 50% of the network, you still cannot revert A B and C.
721 2011-05-18 09:57:23 <Blitzboom> cant we just have deepbit ddosed now rather than later?
722 2011-05-18 09:57:28 <noagendamarket> all that matters is having more hashing power
723 2011-05-18 09:57:32 <sipa> roconnor: of course you can
724 2011-05-18 09:57:37 <Speeder> a high difficulty means only the attack will happen slower (it will take 20 minutes instead of 10 to screwup the network)
725 2011-05-18 09:57:43 <roconnor> sipa: you need to do 3X work
726 2011-05-18 09:58:03 <sipa> roconnor: and if you have >50% you will after some time have done 3X more work than the rest of the network combined
727 2011-05-18 09:58:12 <Speeder> roconnor:  no need to revert all that, you only need to corrupt something.
728 2011-05-18 09:58:17 <Speeder> and BTC fails
729 2011-05-18 09:58:38 <roconnor> Speeder: your scenario is too vague for me to understand fully.
730 2011-05-18 09:58:48 <Speeder> roconnor: BTC value is based on trust
731 2011-05-18 09:59:00 <Speeder> if you trust someone will accept BTC, and that person trust you that BTC has value
732 2011-05-18 09:59:11 <Speeder> if you undermine that trust, BTC value is nothing
733 2011-05-18 09:59:18 <roconnor> Speeder: you are still being vague
734 2011-05-18 09:59:26 <noagendamarket> tycho did promise not to take more than 50%
735 2011-05-18 09:59:32 <molecular> you'd have to be quick, though. people will rather quickly jump pools if you knock the biggest one out
736 2011-05-18 09:59:33 <roconnor> I want a scenario where some transaction gets reverted
737 2011-05-18 09:59:37 <roconnor> or something like that
738 2011-05-18 09:59:37 <Speeder> roconnor:  the difference between BTC and fiat money, is that BTC theoretically has no central authority to screwup it
739 2011-05-18 10:00:18 <Speeder> roconnor:  you do not need to revert a transaction, you only need to block transactions.
740 2011-05-18 10:00:38 <roconnor> okay so your attack is to knock out the big pool
741 2011-05-18 10:00:45 <roconnor> and then mine but refuse to add transactions.
742 2011-05-18 10:00:52 <Speeder> yep.
743 2011-05-18 10:00:54 <roconnor> keeping out all transactions.
744 2011-05-18 10:00:56 <roconnor> ok
745 2011-05-18 10:00:57 <roconnor> thx
746 2011-05-18 10:01:04 <spitteler> roconnor an example of a "reverted transaction" would be double spending... ie.. you have 1 BTC in you wallet and pay 2 addresses 1 BTC... whichever is added to the block chain FIRST is valid, and the other Invalid
747 2011-05-18 10:01:09 <Speeder> what you think will happen when people realize their money is in limbo?
748 2011-05-18 10:01:27 <roconnor> yes, this is a fair attackish.
749 2011-05-18 10:01:29 <Speeder> they will plainly freak out
750 2011-05-18 10:01:33 <spitteler> Speeder is talking about SPLITING the blockchain, but having more then 50% of Hash power (if all pools are down)
751 2011-05-18 10:02:18 <roconnor> Speeder: thanks
752 2011-05-18 10:02:36 <sipa> the double spending attack means causing an intentional long split, and than causing the network to switch from one chain to the other, after you've done a spending in the first
753 2011-05-18 10:02:37 <Speeder> spitteler:  I think most people ahve no idea of what happen when you split the blockchain and create yours
754 2011-05-18 10:04:35 <noagendamarket> if it happens its all over
755 2011-05-18 10:04:36 <sipa> roconnor: do you agree now that difficulty is irrelevant?
756 2011-05-18 10:10:49 <Niedar> Couldnt the mining clients be made to use backup pools or even solo mine automatically if a pool goes down? I think that could help out a lot
757 2011-05-18 10:11:35 <noagendamarket> can that be coded into the clients ?
758 2011-05-18 10:12:03 <mtrlt> i think someone was working on a mining proxy that did just that
759 2011-05-18 10:12:12 <spitteler> Niedar, if you run 2 instances of Poclbm (1 GPU) you will give 50% to each pool
760 2011-05-18 10:12:19 <sipa> you still need accounts on multiple pools
761 2011-05-18 10:12:31 <mtrlt> sipa: of course.
762 2011-05-18 10:12:34 <spitteler> if 1 pool goes down, then the other poclbm will instance will increase
763 2011-05-18 10:13:20 <Niedar> Well yeah but im sure it could be built into clients eventually to automatically solo mine also if pools go down
764 2011-05-18 10:13:34 <Niedar> to just switch over
765 2011-05-18 10:13:39 <mtrlt> Niedar: that is not necessary, a mining proxy can do that
766 2011-05-18 10:13:51 <mtrlt> you just point your miners to the proxy and bam
767 2011-05-18 10:13:52 <mtrlt> :P
768 2011-05-18 10:14:19 <Niedar> arent we talking about people that arent that technical though ?
769 2011-05-18 10:14:39 <mtrlt> they need to get technical, then
770 2011-05-18 10:14:53 <mtrlt> imo.
771 2011-05-18 10:15:40 <Speeder> mtrlt: that is a nonreply
772 2011-05-18 10:15:50 <Speeder> it is like saying that you need dumb people to be not dumb
773 2011-05-18 10:16:00 <Speeder> or to say that a dog need to be a cat
774 2011-05-18 10:16:01 <mtrlt> :(
775 2011-05-18 10:16:28 <Speeder> it is like: oh, our pets cannot reach that toy, they need to jump higher.
776 2011-05-18 10:16:43 <Speeder> and someone reply: turn them into cats (instead of saying: make the toy lower)
777 2011-05-18 10:17:01 <mtrlt> :/
778 2011-05-18 10:21:16 <Blitzboom> Speeder: youre right
779 2011-05-18 10:21:30 <Blitzboom> once people realize bitoin is vulnerable, they will probably never come to trust it again
780 2011-05-18 10:21:32 <Blitzboom> most people
781 2011-05-18 10:22:17 <Diablo-D3> [08:16:00] <Speeder> or to say that a dog need to be a cat
782 2011-05-18 10:22:24 <Diablo-D3> actually I solve problems that way all the time
783 2011-05-18 10:22:28 <Diablo-D3> right tool for the right job
784 2011-05-18 10:23:53 <Speeder> Diablo-D3:  except people are not tools ;)
785 2011-05-18 10:24:06 <Blitzboom> people are worse than tools
786 2011-05-18 10:24:15 <Diablo-D3> Speeder: dude, Ive known a LOT of tools
787 2011-05-18 10:25:03 <Blitzboom> noagendamarket: what will tycho do once deepbit has 50%?
788 2011-05-18 10:25:10 <Blitzboom> to prevent it from gainig more
789 2011-05-18 10:25:13 <Speeder> erm
790 2011-05-18 10:25:29 <Speeder> Diablo-D3: what is tool?
791 2011-05-18 10:25:44 <Diablo-D3> Speeder: a "tool" is someone whos a fucking douchebag
792 2011-05-18 10:26:04 <Speeder> tool is something that allow a a actor do a action
793 2011-05-18 10:26:15 <spitteler> wtf how did they go from 300 to 800 GHash so quickly
794 2011-05-18 10:26:17 <Speeder> the tool must fit both the actor, and the action
795 2011-05-18 10:26:23 <mtrlt> Speeder: tool also means a dumb person
796 2011-05-18 10:26:29 <Speeder> you cannot change the actor, or the action.
797 2011-05-18 10:26:35 <Blitzboom> ;;bc,stats
798 2011-05-18 10:26:36 <gribble> Current Blocks: 124871 | Current Difficulty: 157426.20628986 | Next Difficulty At Block: 124991 | Next Difficulty In: 120 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 11 hours, 38 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 240210.49716268
799 2011-05-18 10:26:36 <noagendamarket> Blitzboom lets hope we dont find out
800 2011-05-18 10:26:47 <Diablo-D3> spitteler: deepbit?
801 2011-05-18 10:26:55 <noagendamarket> probably he would have to prevent signups
802 2011-05-18 10:27:07 <Blitzboom> that wouldnt do anything
803 2011-05-18 10:27:18 <Blitzboom> you can just add more hashpower to existing accounts
804 2011-05-18 10:27:23 <Speeder> we need to both deepbit and slush raise their fees
805 2011-05-18 10:27:32 <mtrlt> why slush
806 2011-05-18 10:27:33 <Blitzboom> no, slush is fine atm
807 2011-05-18 10:27:35 <noagendamarket> yeah that might help too
808 2011-05-18 10:27:36 <mtrlt> he has barely 300GHps
809 2011-05-18 10:27:37 <Blitzboom> but deepbit is too big
810 2011-05-18 10:27:40 <spitteler> Diablo: yes, deepbit is 800 GHash from 300 in a week or so
811 2011-05-18 10:27:41 <Speeder> but that is a only a very short term solution
812 2011-05-18 10:27:50 <Speeder> Blitzboom:  slush has 1/3 of the network
813 2011-05-18 10:27:59 <mtrlt> no he doesn't
814 2011-05-18 10:28:03 <noagendamarket> we need to invest in asic
815 2011-05-18 10:28:06 <mtrlt> unluess the situation changed in the last hour
816 2011-05-18 10:28:08 <Speeder> what we REALLY need, is educate people
817 2011-05-18 10:28:14 <Speeder> and figure HOW they are reaching the mining conclusion
818 2011-05-18 10:28:18 <Blitzboom> noagendamarket: we need a community-driven mining op on GLBSE
819 2011-05-18 10:28:18 <spitteler> 17 May 2011
820 2011-05-18 10:28:21 <mtrlt> he doesn't even have one sixth
821 2011-05-18 10:28:24 <Speeder> somehow as people read about bitcoin, they find out about mining
822 2011-05-18 10:28:24 <spitteler> from his website
823 2011-05-18 10:28:31 <Blitzboom> noagendamarket: with specialized hardware
824 2011-05-18 10:28:31 <noagendamarket> Blitzboom yes
825 2011-05-18 10:28:33 <Speeder> we need them to favour investing and using bitcoin, not mining
826 2011-05-18 10:28:42 <Diablo-D3> gheh
827 2011-05-18 10:28:46 <Diablo-D3> I need to get my miner software done
828 2011-05-18 10:29:10 <Blitzboom> noagendamarket: have you read http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=8543.0
829 2011-05-18 10:29:22 <noagendamarket> It would take a bit to do
830 2011-05-18 10:29:31 <Blitzboom> doesnt matter. think longterm