1 2011-05-25 00:04:51 <gjs278> ;;bc,blocks
  2 2011-05-25 00:04:56 <gribble> 126487
  3 2011-05-25 00:10:59 <Juffo-Wup> Question: If you are running a pushpoold, how do you determine your overall hash rate or the hash rate of a specific user? Does each share require the same fixed number of hashes for completion?
  4 2011-05-25 00:11:31 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: someone is fucking with us is my vote
  5 2011-05-25 00:11:38 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: and gave satoshi coins for lulz
  6 2011-05-25 00:11:51 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: and since you mentioned it, it worked ;P
  7 2011-05-25 00:13:00 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: oh wait, there's actually sends from it, weird
  8 2011-05-25 00:13:07 <doublec> Juffo-Wup: yes
  9 2011-05-25 00:13:10 <datathe1st> If my bitcoin client shows 2 connections and then drops down to 1, what can I do to help it along
 10 2011-05-25 00:13:15 <doublec> Juffo-Wup: erm, no
 11 2011-05-25 00:13:16 <datathe1st> I'd like to connect to hundreds of nodes
 12 2011-05-25 00:13:28 <doublec> Juffo-Wup: you can calculate an estimate based on the number of shares
 13 2011-05-25 00:13:32 <jrmithdobbs> datathe1st: fix net.cpp to not suck
 14 2011-05-25 00:13:39 <Juffo-Wup> Ok... So how many hashes per share on average?
 15 2011-05-25 00:13:45 <doublec> Juffo-Wup: see http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=7613.0
 16 2011-05-25 00:13:53 <Juffo-Wup> oh perfect, thanks!
 17 2011-05-25 00:13:59 <jrmithdobbs> datathe1st: note: this is not an easy proposition
 18 2011-05-25 00:14:17 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, no there are no sends from it
 19 2011-05-25 00:14:53 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, all it needs is a shorter timeout lul
 20 2011-05-25 00:14:57 <datathe1st> whats wrong with the net.cpp code?
 21 2011-05-25 00:15:07 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: oh i see, you linked the account that sent TO it, haha
 22 2011-05-25 00:15:27 <jrmithdobbs> datathe1st: lots.
 23 2011-05-25 00:15:28 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: it needs a timeout period
 24 2011-05-25 00:15:32 <datathe1st> well i do code for a living but shuold i really take a look at it?
 25 2011-05-25 00:15:54 <datathe1st> is it easy to check in / check out?
 26 2011-05-25 00:16:00 <datathe1st> does bitcoin use git?
 27 2011-05-25 00:16:09 <jrmithdobbs> yes github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
 28 2011-05-25 00:16:29 <datathe1st> maybe this weekend i'll take a look at it. thanks
 29 2011-05-25 00:17:30 <datathe1st> is there an automatic wallet encryption / backup feature being worked on?
 30 2011-05-25 00:18:10 <jrmithdobbs> datathe1st: ya should be in .4
 31 2011-05-25 00:18:37 <jrmithdobbs> datathe1st: encryption is already done, the rpc commands to dump/restore wallet needs to be updated to work with it iirc
 32 2011-05-25 00:20:35 <jrmithdobbs> and ya, net.cpp may melt your brain
 33 2011-05-25 00:21:34 <jrmithdobbs> (it's not really that bad)
 34 2011-05-25 00:21:39 <datathe1st> hmm :S
 35 2011-05-25 00:22:00 <datathe1st> I am no tcp/ip expert so maybe I should just look at the bits I might understand
 36 2011-05-25 00:22:12 <jrmithdobbs> don't worry, neither was satoshi!
 37 2011-05-25 00:22:17 <jrmithdobbs> heh
 38 2011-05-25 00:28:30 <ar4s> would anyone happen to know why I don't see the directory "Bitcoin" in ~/Library/Application Support/ ?
 39 2011-05-25 00:30:00 <devrandom1> BlueMatt yo
 40 2011-05-25 00:30:32 <devrandom1> I'm not seeing an rss feed on http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/ anymore
 41 2011-05-25 00:30:43 <devrandom1> am I looking at the wrong place?
 42 2011-05-25 00:30:47 <jrmithdobbs> ar4s: because you haven't launched bitcoin yet or because you built it from source and it put everything in ~/.bitcoin instead
 43 2011-05-25 00:32:24 <devrandom1> BlueMatt - found it http://sourceforge.net/api/file/index/project-id/244765/mtime/desc/limit/20/rss
 44 2011-05-25 00:33:18 <ar4s> jrmithdobbs: Thanks for the reply. I downloaded 0.3.21-beta from weusecoins. It's in my applications folder, and it's running (has been for about a week now)
 45 2011-05-25 00:33:53 <ar4s> ahh
 46 2011-05-25 00:33:58 <lfm> ar4s try the official ver from bitcoin.org
 47 2011-05-25 00:34:27 <ar4s> I will for sure, I can just delete the old one and the new one will pick up the same wallet (I assume?)
 48 2011-05-25 00:34:43 <lfm> it should ya
 49 2011-05-25 00:34:59 <ar4s> great, I'll give that a try
 50 2011-05-25 00:37:34 <gjs278> # bitcoind start
 51 2011-05-25 00:37:36 <gjs278> error: couldn't connect to server
 52 2011-05-25 00:37:40 <gjs278> what did I miss
 53 2011-05-25 00:38:21 <gjs278> nevermind that was obvious
 54 2011-05-25 00:38:27 <doublec> bitcoind doesn't take a start argument
 55 2011-05-25 00:38:37 <gjs278> yeah
 56 2011-05-25 00:38:40 <doublec> I've done that too :)
 57 2011-05-25 00:41:20 <jgarzik> +           if (strMethod == "start")
 58 2011-05-25 00:41:49 <doublec> good plan :)
 59 2011-05-25 00:45:36 <jrmithdobbs> so is anyone else worried about the fact that this next diff bump puts all the power in the hands of pools and companies that can front cash/dc space for 20+ nodes?
 60 2011-05-25 00:47:05 <doublec> there's a thread in the forums with ideas to move away from the 'pools have the power' model
 61 2011-05-25 00:47:20 <doublec> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9137
 62 2011-05-25 00:48:47 <jrmithdobbs> that doesn't fix the fact that .4 mil difficulty makes it unprofitable to mine without ~10 4x6970 nodes or better
 63 2011-05-25 00:49:53 <jrmithdobbs> and even then doing so without pooling is quite risky at the rate cycles are being added to the network
 64 2011-05-25 00:50:03 <jrmithdobbs> do the math
 65 2011-05-25 00:50:14 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: How are you coming up with that figure?
 66 2011-05-25 00:51:50 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: .4 mil diff means 20Thash/s gets you a block on average every 9 days? which means you need MORE than that to solo mine if you actually want to hit a block before a diff change at the current growth rate?
 67 2011-05-25 00:52:04 <jrmithdobbs> did you not notice the 33% growth in the last ~3-4 days?
 68 2011-05-25 00:52:26 <BitterTea> What about pools?
 69 2011-05-25 00:52:53 <BitterTea> If you were just talking about solo mining then you have a point
 70 2011-05-25 00:53:37 <jrmithdobbs> still, assuming diff stays static for the entire time, pooling with 20Thash/s you're looking at 4 months to recoup costs of nodes alone
 71 2011-05-25 00:53:42 <jrmithdobbs> and diff is not staying static for 4 months
 72 2011-05-25 00:53:57 <jrmithdobbs> err 3 months
 73 2011-05-25 00:54:08 <jrmithdobbs> not even factoring in power
 74 2011-05-25 00:54:11 <BitterTea> Ok, so starting mining at .4mil isn't profitable
 75 2011-05-25 00:54:17 <BitterTea> But continuing to mine will be
 76 2011-05-25 00:54:30 <jrmithdobbs> seriously did pixar/disney throw spare cycles at the network or something in the last 3 days?
 77 2011-05-25 00:54:41 <BitterTea> I should say may not be and may be
 78 2011-05-25 00:55:04 <BitterTea> Just catching up to the exchange rate I think
 79 2011-05-25 00:55:24 <jrmithdobbs> and that all assumes the market doesn't pop it's bubble
 80 2011-05-25 00:56:21 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: but sure, if you've already got ~20Thash/s of nodes you're running and have already recouped initial costs it will be profitable (not nearly as much) until it hits .5-.6
 81 2011-05-25 00:56:33 <jrmithdobbs> but just barely
 82 2011-05-25 00:56:44 <BitterTea> Have you seen this thread? http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9111.0
 83 2011-05-25 00:57:03 <jrmithdobbs> no
 84 2011-05-25 00:57:29 <phantomcircuit> is anybody accepting transactions without any confirmations into a block yet?
 85 2011-05-25 00:57:33 <BitterTea> I thought it was pretty interesting
 86 2011-05-25 00:57:46 <BitterTea> phantomcircuit: What do you mean?
 87 2011-05-25 00:58:21 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: funny, that's pretty close to the math that made me ask the above question.
 88 2011-05-25 00:58:21 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, ill sell you 20 btc for 1 btc if you're willing to accept without any confirmations
 89 2011-05-25 00:59:10 <BitterTea> hmm... if you're serious I'll take it, how do you suggest we proceed?
 90 2011-05-25 00:59:20 <phantomcircuit> a gambler i see...
 91 2011-05-25 00:59:34 <BitterTea> are you going to try to race the transaction and double spend? :)
 92 2011-05-25 00:59:40 <jrmithdobbs> do it because i want to see what phantomcircuit has up his sleave
 93 2011-05-25 00:59:46 <jrmithdobbs> sleeve
 94 2011-05-25 00:59:57 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, WHO ME??
 95 2011-05-25 00:59:58 <BitterTea> I'm fine with that for at 20:1
 96 2011-05-25 01:00:40 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: that thread doesn't take into account cost of cooling upgrades and ac power usage
 97 2011-05-25 01:00:51 <jrmithdobbs> and renting space
 98 2011-05-25 01:00:58 <jrmithdobbs> s/renting/leasing/
 99 2011-05-25 01:01:05 <BitterTea> it does take into account electricity costs, but why would cooling need to be  upgraded?
100 2011-05-25 01:01:22 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: you've never built out dc space i see
101 2011-05-25 01:01:27 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, no race :P
102 2011-05-25 01:01:32 <BitterTea> I have a computer that is running all the time anyway, mining at 270mhash is still profitable and will be for some time
103 2011-05-25 01:02:05 <BitterTea> phantomcircuit: You send 20BTC to the following address, and as soon as I see it I will send you 1 BTC... 14cXXHnkbLH51kNNZK7sm2pceFuxsrQUmU
104 2011-05-25 01:02:08 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: if you're trying to scale it cooling planning/upgrades is a requirement, this shit generates massive heat
105 2011-05-25 01:02:09 <genjix> willing to offer 20 BC for 1 BC if you accept 0 confirms
106 2011-05-25 01:02:11 <genjix> o shit
107 2011-05-25 01:02:22 <genjix> no the other way around.
108 2011-05-25 01:02:26 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: I'm assuming no additional infrastructure upgrades
109 2011-05-25 01:02:50 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: but anyone wanting to do it at a scale that'll make any appreciable ammount of money has to take that into account
110 2011-05-25 01:03:28 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: Increasing mining capacity may not continue to be profitable, but continuing to mine at your current capacity should be for some time
111 2011-05-25 01:03:48 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: unless you've not fully recouped costs already
112 2011-05-25 01:04:14 <jrmithdobbs> which is the situation anyone doing it at scale that hasn't been doing it as long as ArtForz is in
113 2011-05-25 01:04:29 <BitterTea> I think you're underestimating the number of hobbyist miners
114 2011-05-25 01:04:56 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: i'm pretty sure 33% increase in cycles in 72-96 hours did not come from hobbyists.
115 2011-05-25 01:04:59 <gjs278> for me it makes sense to mine for a long time
116 2011-05-25 01:05:17 <gjs278> the electric is only like $50 - $80 for the month
117 2011-05-25 01:05:25 <gjs278> I make that back in 1 - 2 days at the moment
118 2011-05-25 01:05:47 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: if these people who have invested the kind of money necessary to do it at scale bail txns are going to scream to a halt and the whole thing is going to come crashing down
119 2011-05-25 01:06:24 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: what happens to mtgox when blocks are genned, say, once every 1-2 hours
120 2011-05-25 01:06:34 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: i'll tell you what. it crashes through the floor.
121 2011-05-25 01:07:03 <BitterTea> I think you have it backwards
122 2011-05-25 01:07:19 <BitterTea> if the exchange rate drops, miners will stop mining, and the difficulty will decrease
123 2011-05-25 01:08:24 <okowl> Hi, I have a question: What prevents the seller of an item from not sending the item after receiving Bitcoins from the buyer?
124 2011-05-25 01:08:28 <BitterTea> phantomcircuit: Did you chicken out, or are you charging the Double Spending Ray? :)
125 2011-05-25 01:08:28 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: sure it will eventually decrease
126 2011-05-25 01:08:39 <genjix> charging the lasers
127 2011-05-25 01:08:41 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: do you realise how long 2016 blocks will take at 1 every 1-2 hours?
128 2011-05-25 01:08:46 <bd_> BitterTea: Yep. But if it drops too fast, it would take a while to recover. For example, if mining capacity drops by 6x overnight, it'll take up to 12 weeks to adjust
129 2011-05-25 01:08:46 <genjix> please be patient.
130 2011-05-25 01:08:51 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: 2 weeks
131 2011-05-25 01:08:56 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: Oops, bad math
132 2011-05-25 01:09:04 <jrmithdobbs> was gonna say.
133 2011-05-25 01:09:12 <jrmithdobbs> take the median of 1.5 hours/block
134 2011-05-25 01:09:21 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: I don't think it will drop that quickly, but I agree that it takes longer to come down from a difficulty bubble than to inflate one
135 2011-05-25 01:09:24 <jrmithdobbs> and ignore the fact that once this happens more miners will drop off
136 2011-05-25 01:09:34 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, wat no double spending! NEVER!
137 2011-05-25 01:10:24 <BitterTea> phantomcircuit: Make sure to give me your address and wait for me to confirm I'm ready before you send
138 2011-05-25 01:10:29 <BitterTea> (if you do)
139 2011-05-25 01:10:31 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: there's a bunch of people about to realise that they can't recoup their current debt without quadrupling capacity (adding more debt)
140 2011-05-25 01:10:54 <okowl> i, I have a question: What prevents the seller of an item from not sending the item after receiving Bitcoins from the buyer?
141 2011-05-25 01:10:56 <BitterTea> You're still assuming that is not profitable to mine currently
142 2011-05-25 01:11:09 <BitterTea> okowl: You can use an escrow service like ;;ClearCoin
143 2011-05-25 01:11:12 <BitterTea> ;;ClearCoin
144 2011-05-25 01:11:13 <gribble> Error: "ClearCoin" is not a valid command.
145 2011-05-25 01:11:19 <bd_> okowl: Nothing. What stops the seller of an item from not sending the item after receiving real coins from a buyer?
146 2011-05-25 01:11:20 <BitterTea> help
147 2011-05-25 01:11:20 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: either they are going to try and sell of the hardware at a small loss with less risk (fucking the network) or they're going to buy more hardware, go into more debt, and postpone the former while ballooning difficulty further (further fucking the network)
148 2011-05-25 01:11:43 <okowl> Thanks!
149 2011-05-25 01:11:45 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: Or they will continue mining, selling bitcoins at a profit *now* to cover their *possible* future deficits
150 2011-05-25 01:12:00 <bd_> BitterTea: That's a loss if it doesn't cover electricity
151 2011-05-25 01:12:24 <BitterTea> okowl: Also, check in #bitcoin-otc also, there's a rating system they use that can help you identify trustworthy people
152 2011-05-25 01:12:24 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: which .4 mil diff is *very* close to not being able to do. (not cover elec costs that is)
153 2011-05-25 01:12:40 <BitterTea> According to the thread I linked, that is not true
154 2011-05-25 01:12:58 <okowl> BitterTea: Thanks
155 2011-05-25 01:12:59 <BitterTea> I have a 5850 which does 270mhash/s
156 2011-05-25 01:13:00 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: for people who have already recouped hw costs it is still
157 2011-05-25 01:13:16 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: for the people who have bought in in the last 30 days and have not .....
158 2011-05-25 01:13:22 <gjs278> my 5850 from may 5th just paid itself off
159 2011-05-25 01:13:22 <jrmithdobbs> less risky to sell off hw at a small loss
160 2011-05-25 01:13:26 <gjs278> about two days ago
161 2011-05-25 01:13:37 <GarrettB> lol people who bought in heavily a few weeks ago (in hardware)
162 2011-05-25 01:13:39 <jrmithdobbs> gjs278: talking large scale ops
163 2011-05-25 01:13:40 <GarrettB> poor scrubs
164 2011-05-25 01:13:44 <BitterTea> They also stand to gain much more if the exchange rate does go up, or others drop out
165 2011-05-25 01:14:02 <BitterTea> The people who are more risk averse may stop mining, but that will decrease the difficulty
166 2011-05-25 01:14:02 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: but enough drop out to fuck block gen rate it's all moot
167 2011-05-25 01:14:05 <GarrettB> I can't believe people bought shares of dishwara's company
168 2011-05-25 01:14:38 <BitterTea> I really don't see a significant portion of miners who have large amounts of capital and debt suddenly quitting mining altogether
169 2011-05-25 01:14:52 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: dropping block gen rate to 1.5 hour median *right now* will crash the market
170 2011-05-25 01:14:53 <BitterTea> GarrettB: Yeah, me either
171 2011-05-25 01:14:58 <jrmithdobbs> period.
172 2011-05-25 01:15:10 <jrmithdobbs> and this is a real possibilty once people start running the numbers
173 2011-05-25 01:15:41 <jrmithdobbs> sure diff will eventually recover
174 2011-05-25 01:15:48 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: 1.5 hour median means 8/9 of all miners suddenly drop out
175 2011-05-25 01:15:52 <BitterTea> Do you really think that will happen?
176 2011-05-25 01:16:08 <BitterTea> Also, how will miners dropping out "crash the market"?
177 2011-05-25 01:16:09 <okowl> bd_: You're right, but eBay does a really good job of ensuring buyer/seller security.
178 2011-05-25 01:16:42 <bd_> okowl: paypal isn't cash. Think of bitcoin as cash - coins in your pocket. If you give a coin to someone, and they run away, you're stuck.
179 2011-05-25 01:16:46 <BitterTea> Difficulty has been pretty clearly lagging price for a while now, not the other way around
180 2011-05-25 01:16:47 <gribble> 126497
181 2011-05-25 01:16:47 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
182 2011-05-25 01:16:51 <bd_> paypal has transaction reversals and insurance
183 2011-05-25 01:17:30 <davex__> GarrettB, that exchange scares me.  where is all the invested capital?  just sitting on an exchange wallet somewhere?
184 2011-05-25 01:17:41 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: you sure on your math there?
185 2011-05-25 01:17:43 <davex__> i'd read more about it but i can't find much
186 2011-05-25 01:17:45 <GarrettB> davex__: no idea
187 2011-05-25 01:17:48 <GarrettB> ask Nefario
188 2011-05-25 01:17:51 <BitterTea> davex__: Which exchange? GSBSE?
189 2011-05-25 01:17:54 <BitterTea> *GLBSE
190 2011-05-25 01:17:54 <davex__> yeah
191 2011-05-25 01:17:54 <GarrettB> I'd imagine a secure server
192 2011-05-25 01:18:03 <GarrettB> BitterTea: you mean GLOBSEX?
193 2011-05-25 01:18:05 <GarrettB> :P
194 2011-05-25 01:18:08 <BitterTea> No, when you buy shares, the coins to go the issuer of shares
195 2011-05-25 01:18:10 <lfm> bittertea one way miners dropping out can cause a problem is the block rate gets very slow untill the next difficulty update. if like 80% of the miners quit at once then the block rate would be 1/5th and it could take 10 weeks till the next difficulty update
196 2011-05-25 01:18:24 <davex__> oh...
197 2011-05-25 01:18:31 <BitterTea> lfm: I understand, I just don't think that a large percentage of miners will drop out suddenly
198 2011-05-25 01:18:47 <lfm> BitterTea: I dont think so either
199 2011-05-25 01:19:08 <davex__> so issuer can just take the coins and run
200 2011-05-25 01:19:13 <BitterTea> davex__: Yeah, it works like a stock market, but there are very few barriers to entry\n647837
201 2011-05-25 01:19:19 <BitterTea> They can, yes
202 2011-05-25 01:19:24 <devrandom1> jrmithdobbs - I don't agree with your statement that "that doesn't fix the fact that .4 mil difficulty makes it unprofitable to mine without ~10 4x6970 nodes or better"
203 2011-05-25 01:19:42 <BitterTea> Which is why you only buy shares from people you trust won't do that :)
204 2011-05-25 01:19:47 <gruez> I dont get it
205 2011-05-25 01:19:49 <devrandom1> jrmithdobbs - mining is profitable at any scale and will remain so
206 2011-05-25 01:20:02 <lfm> doesnt really matter how many 6970s you have they are all the same efficiency
207 2011-05-25 01:20:05 <gruez> Why do people use 6990?
208 2011-05-25 01:20:13 <BitterTea> devrandom1: I will say that CPU mining, if profitable now, will not be in the near future
209 2011-05-25 01:20:18 <BitterTea> *probably
210 2011-05-25 01:20:18 <gruez> Just use 5850
211 2011-05-25 01:20:24 <devrandom1> jrmithdobbs - the price per BTC scales with the difficulty.  it doesn't matter when you find a block, if you mine solo
212 2011-05-25 01:20:31 <gruez> More cost effective
213 2011-05-25 01:20:35 <BitterTea> gruez: You need fewer computer systems for the same hash rate, theoretically
214 2011-05-25 01:20:41 <devrandom1> BitterTea - you mean GPU?
215 2011-05-25 01:20:44 <jrmithdobbs> devrandom1: not true, price has not been affected by the last to 50% diff bumps
216 2011-05-25 01:20:51 <jrmithdobbs> s/to/two/
217 2011-05-25 01:20:58 <jrmithdobbs> devrandom1: it's actually devalued
218 2011-05-25 01:21:01 <lfm> BitterTea: depends how the btc price goes too tho. if the price skyrockets again/more then cpus could be economical again
219 2011-05-25 01:21:05 <BitterTea> devrandom1: No, I mean CPU mining. I think it might *not* be profitable now, but if it is, I don't think it will be for much longer at all
220 2011-05-25 01:21:23 <BitterTea> lfm: True, but only until the difficulty catches back up
221 2011-05-25 01:21:30 <lfm> yup
222 2011-05-25 01:21:39 <devrandom1> mining has an 40% - 80% profit margin last time I checked
223 2011-05-25 01:21:48 <devrandom1> it bounces between these, but is always profitable
224 2011-05-25 01:22:00 <gruez> Fuck
225 2011-05-25 01:22:04 <jrmithdobbs> devrandom1: do the numbers again at .4mil diff
226 2011-05-25 01:22:08 <lfm> devrandom depending what expenses you include and what your power rates are
227 2011-05-25 01:22:11 <gruez> Really?
228 2011-05-25 01:22:15 <devrandom1> the increases in BTC value and difficulty are not in sync on a daily basis, but they are on a monthly basis
229 2011-05-25 01:22:19 <jrmithdobbs> devrandom1: it degrades greatly even assuming we stay close to $7usd/btc
230 2011-05-25 01:22:30 <jrmithdobbs> devrandom1: especially if you're adding capacity
231 2011-05-25 01:22:31 <gruez> I thought it was 10
232 2011-05-25 01:22:42 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: The difficulty will come to an equilibrium at a certain exchange rate
233 2011-05-25 01:22:47 <devrandom1> jrmithdobbs - the price will adjust
234 2011-05-25 01:22:59 <jrmithdobbs> devrandom1: history doesn't agree with you
235 2011-05-25 01:23:11 <devrandom1> nobody will mine at a loss
236 2011-05-25 01:23:14 <jrmithdobbs> devrandom1: the markets are literally insane right now and don't seem to be adjusting to real world events
237 2011-05-25 01:23:15 <okowl> bd_: Like cash, the use of Bitcoins in user to user (not so much in user to website/company) transactions is at your own risk. Scary/different, but I get it.
238 2011-05-25 01:23:20 <stuhood> the pool of miners expands or contracts to match the value of the BTC in the system& i agree with devrandom1
239 2011-05-25 01:23:26 <lfm> gruez the price went up to nearly $10 a couple weeks ago but then it dropped to $6 or 7 since
240 2011-05-25 01:23:28 <devrandom1> and if mining is profitable, it is profitable at all scales, as long as the hardware is comparable
241 2011-05-25 01:23:51 <jrmithdobbs> stuhood: then why has it devalued from two weeks ago with an almost 100% diff increase?
242 2011-05-25 01:23:56 <stuhood> devrandom1: but, there is such thing as having too many miners to match the BTC value of the system
243 2011-05-25 01:24:04 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: Difficulty *follows* price
244 2011-05-25 01:24:15 <phantomcircuit> devrandom1, a lot of the miners are operating essentially without capital costs, they bought the gpu for gaming and btc mining is simply gravy
245 2011-05-25 01:24:16 <stuhood> jrmithdobbs: one was high, one was low
246 2011-05-25 01:24:17 <BitterTea> Difficulty is increasing because the price increased from ~$1 to ~$7
247 2011-05-25 01:24:17 <davex__> ++BitterTea
248 2011-05-25 01:24:21 <devrandom1> it is true the risk of variance (being an outlier and taking an extra long time to find a block) is higher at a smaller scale
249 2011-05-25 01:25:06 <stuhood> devrandom1: eh...
250 2011-05-25 01:25:07 <BitterTea> It takes time for people to acquire more hardware, set it up, and start mining. That is why the difficulty is increasing
251 2011-05-25 01:25:07 <jrmithdobbs> devrandom1: .4mil diff means it's basically impossible to find a block before diff change without ~20Ghash/s or greater
252 2011-05-25 01:25:28 <jrmithdobbs> devrandom1: which means everyone migrates to pools
253 2011-05-25 01:25:36 <BitterTea> So?
254 2011-05-25 01:25:39 <jrmithdobbs> devrandom1: which increases instability of the network
255 2011-05-25 01:26:01 <gribble> Error: "bc,probd" is not a valid command.
256 2011-05-25 01:26:01 <sipa> ;;bc,probd 400000 10d
257 2011-05-25 01:26:02 <devrandom1> there will be more pools...
258 2011-05-25 01:26:05 <stuhood> there is a maximum interesting pool size though
259 2011-05-25 01:26:15 <jrmithdobbs> if a handful of centralized organizations control 50-90% of the block generations
260 2011-05-25 01:26:18 <erbs> sup yall
261 2011-05-25 01:26:22 <BitterTea> How many pools are there now? It seems like the number has exploded in the past month
262 2011-05-25 01:26:23 <jrmithdobbs> then it kind of defeats the purpose
263 2011-05-25 01:26:35 <sipa> no it doesnt
264 2011-05-25 01:26:42 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: explain.
265 2011-05-25 01:26:43 <BitterTea> No it doesn't defeat the purpose, and there designs for decentralized pools being created now
266 2011-05-25 01:27:16 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: whats to prevent them from colluding to influence the market?
267 2011-05-25 01:27:26 <jrmithdobbs> "market forces"?
268 2011-05-25 01:27:28 <jrmithdobbs> ha
269 2011-05-25 01:27:28 <lfm> but bitcoin itself is a decentralized pool, seems redundant
270 2011-05-25 01:27:47 <stuhood> jrmithdobbs: yes& because there is no advantage to joining a pool larger than a certain size
271 2011-05-25 01:27:48 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: People will leave pools that play dirty
272 2011-05-25 01:27:48 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: that only works when your market is semi-sane to begin with
273 2011-05-25 01:28:01 <BitterTea> And you are *assuming* that the market is insane
274 2011-05-25 01:28:16 <lfm> BitterTea: if the dirty tricks are detectable
275 2011-05-25 01:28:31 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: it obviously is when one guy selling +/-200btc can hold a cap on mtgox
276 2011-05-25 01:28:41 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: What?
277 2011-05-25 01:28:43 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: you can go watch it happen.
278 2011-05-25 01:28:49 <BitterTea> Explain please
279 2011-05-25 01:29:06 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, 200 btc cant do that for long
280 2011-05-25 01:29:12 <stuhood> basically, if you assume that miners are happy with being paid once a day, then there is no reason to be in a pool that controls more than 1/144th of the cpu power
281 2011-05-25 01:29:15 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, also remember that 200 btc is 1400 USD
282 2011-05-25 01:29:22 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: i'm aware
283 2011-05-25 01:29:36 <BitterTea> btw, if you're interested in the decentralized pool idea I mentioned... http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=7737.msg138118#msg138118
284 2011-05-25 01:29:37 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: but it can influence it for long enough to prove my point
285 2011-05-25 01:29:39 <lfm> what do you mean "hold a cap on"?
286 2011-05-25 01:29:51 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: that this market is insane
287 2011-05-25 01:29:56 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, sure but it'll cost you 1400 usd ;)
288 2011-05-25 01:30:00 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: I assert that *you* are insane
289 2011-05-25 01:30:14 <devrandom1> lfm - he means that the current price is often held by just one person with a small number of BTC
290 2011-05-25 01:30:35 <lfm> BitterTea: he calls what he doesnt understand "insane". its what most people do really
291 2011-05-25 01:30:37 <BitterTea> devrandom1: That's hard to prove, and it seems completely contradictory to observation
292 2011-05-25 01:31:12 <devrandom1> it seems neither here nor there, because it's true in both directions
293 2011-05-25 01:31:19 <devrandom1> it just means that things are volatile
294 2011-05-25 01:31:19 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: eg, that plummet under 7 the other day where it kept almost bumping back over was a handful of people, you could watch the exact ammounts of asks move down and push it lower
295 2011-05-25 01:31:45 <jrmithdobbs> err under 6 i mean
296 2011-05-25 01:31:46 <davex__> The asks aren't pushing it lower.
297 2011-05-25 01:31:54 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: Are you The One? How do you divine this information?
298 2011-05-25 01:31:55 <davex__> it's the guys that are taking the asks
299 2011-05-25 01:32:14 <davex__> or vice-versa.  on the way up an hour ago, somebody bought 6000 btc
300 2011-05-25 01:32:18 <sipa> BitterTea: see http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3461.0
301 2011-05-25 01:32:24 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: well anyone who understands the "depth" charts can see what it is and adjust their thinking appropriatly
302 2011-05-25 01:32:38 <devrandom1> there will be less volatility with more players in the market
303 2011-05-25 01:33:00 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: but most people selling at the moment don't understand them, that was the meaning of my "insane" comments
304 2011-05-25 01:33:19 <devrandom1> in any case, if BTC is to get to $1000 then the difficulty has to rise at least x100
305 2011-05-25 01:33:26 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, ps im just waiting for block download
306 2011-05-25 01:33:30 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: so they see a "huge" (1-2k usd worth) chunk at a price and underbid to beat it, after that sell the huge chunk moves down
307 2011-05-25 01:33:30 <phantomcircuit> which apparently i didnt have
308 2011-05-25 01:33:33 <BitterTea> phantomcircuit: Ok
309 2011-05-25 01:34:01 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: try it yourself, it's very effective
310 2011-05-25 01:34:16 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: isnt that normal market action?
311 2011-05-25 01:34:25 <davex__> jrmithdobbs, you're talking about the small-time day traders on #bitcoin-otc.  they are not moving the market.
312 2011-05-25 01:34:47 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: not when a handful of people can push the price down by 20-30% in 3 hours with 1-2k usd worth of coins.
313 2011-05-25 01:35:09 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: that is an insane market.
314 2011-05-25 01:35:22 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, the entire market is only liek 100k usd/day
315 2011-05-25 01:35:27 <phantomcircuit> so that's actually not insane at all
316 2011-05-25 01:35:29 <BitterTea> I'm not convinced that's even what happening, but it's not insane, it's just *small*
317 2011-05-25 01:35:56 <BitterTea> You can do the same thing to any penny stock
318 2011-05-25 01:36:55 <erbs> :-)D
319 2011-05-25 01:36:57 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: not without making an actual sell, that's the part you're missing
320 2011-05-25 01:37:07 <BitterTea> How is it different?
321 2011-05-25 01:37:34 <lfm> the only thing that would be insane would be if they were buying high and selling low
322 2011-05-25 01:37:53 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: or buying randomly with real world events playing no role
323 2011-05-25 01:38:30 <BitterTea> That's just you projecting your personal opinions on to others
324 2011-05-25 01:38:37 <lfm> virtual worlds?
325 2011-05-25 01:38:41 <BitterTea> Maybe they have more information than you, or they are willing to take more risk
326 2011-05-25 01:38:49 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: what do you mean? throw 200btc up for 7.35 right now, wait for everyone to underbind you, drop it down to 7.25, rinse repeat
327 2011-05-25 01:38:57 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: you've lost nothing but dropped the market
328 2011-05-25 01:39:10 <jrmithdobbs> buy and wait for it to go back up
329 2011-05-25 01:39:13 <lfm> so?
330 2011-05-25 01:39:18 <BitterTea> You think they will underbit forever? lol
331 2011-05-25 01:39:22 <BitterTea> *underbid
332 2011-05-25 01:39:36 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: this is exactly what caused that drop to 5.5 the other day, yes
333 2011-05-25 01:39:42 <jrmithdobbs> watched it happen
334 2011-05-25 01:39:50 <jrmithdobbs> it was 2-3 people with ~200btc each
335 2011-05-25 01:39:54 <lfm> so whats wrong with it?
336 2011-05-25 01:40:04 <BitterTea> How do you know it was 2-3 people!?
337 2011-05-25 01:40:04 <erbs> ;;bc,mtgox
338 2011-05-25 01:40:04 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.51,"low":6.96,"vol":29243,"buy":7.3001,"sell":7.35,"last":7.3001}}
339 2011-05-25 01:40:07 <phantomcircuit> ZOMG BASIC MARKET MANIPULATION
340 2011-05-25 01:40:09 <erbs> shit be high bro
341 2011-05-25 01:40:10 <gjs278> he was in on it
342 2011-05-25 01:40:10 <phantomcircuit> EVERYBODY RUN
343 2011-05-25 01:40:43 <jrmithdobbs> gjs278: ;P
344 2011-05-25 01:40:54 <gjs278> I just sold coins at 7.23, I dropped the market
345 2011-05-25 01:41:05 <okowl> According to http://newlibertystandard.wetpaint.com/page/Exchange+Rate the exchange rate is 221btc = 1usd? If not, what is it?
346 2011-05-25 01:41:06 <erbs> nothings stoppping mtgox from recording fake transactions to increase the spot price.. works well if there are buysers throughout the day who buy in or cash out at the spot price
347 2011-05-25 01:41:09 <gjs278> unless I wasnt supposed to sell
348 2011-05-25 01:41:10 <BitterTea> Wait, let me get this straight. I put up 200 BTC right now, undercutting the lowest bid?
349 2011-05-25 01:41:19 <BitterTea> Then, everyone else will undercut me
350 2011-05-25 01:41:23 <jrmithdobbs> yes.
351 2011-05-25 01:41:23 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, i have an open ask order for 10k usd, does that mean im raisinng the market?!
352 2011-05-25 01:41:26 <ar4s> How long does it take to receive bitcoins once the sender has issued them to a wallet?
353 2011-05-25 01:41:26 <jrmithdobbs> try it.
354 2011-05-25 01:41:28 <gjs278> yes
355 2011-05-25 01:41:29 <lfm> oh my oh my, transactions effect the market! time to panic
356 2011-05-25 01:41:29 <phantomcircuit> QUICK EVERYBODY SELL FOR INFINITY
357 2011-05-25 01:41:30 <BitterTea> Presumably, some buyers will snap up these "cheap" coins
358 2011-05-25 01:41:38 <BitterTea> Then... the price is back up
359 2011-05-25 01:42:17 <BitterTea> Your scenario seems to require buyers to continue to lower their bids and not buy
360 2011-05-25 01:42:24 <BitterTea> And if that is the case? So what?
361 2011-05-25 01:42:33 <jlewis> that's sort of what happens because the market is fairly illiquid
362 2011-05-25 01:42:36 <phantomcircuit> ar4s, 10 minutes on average, but the actual timing is random, and the longer you wait the more certain you can be that they're actually in your wallet
363 2011-05-25 01:42:58 <BitterTea> It's like quantum money :)
364 2011-05-25 01:43:06 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: point is you can do it at no loss because most people selling, at least right now, seem to be trying to liquidate asap
365 2011-05-25 01:43:30 <BitterTea> Well, that's your assumption, and you could be completely wrong and then you'd eat a loss
366 2011-05-25 01:43:36 <ar4s> phantomcircuit: thanks, does it help to restart bitcoin or is it better just to wait it out?
367 2011-05-25 01:43:42 <phantomcircuit> ar4s, just wait
368 2011-05-25 01:43:43 <BitterTea> Just wait it out
369 2011-05-25 01:44:00 <ar4s> alrighty
370 2011-05-25 01:44:20 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: slightly undercut with a huge chunk, you will get underbid, let it stabalize below you, which it will, repeat, good chance you will only sell off a very small portion before pushing it down far enough to make it profitable to buy and lift your asks
371 2011-05-25 01:44:23 <BitterTea> Question: if the sender does not include a tx fee, will it still show up unconfirmed immediately?
372 2011-05-25 01:44:37 <gjs278> I think so
373 2011-05-25 01:44:46 <gjs278> I thought the tx only matters  forconfirms
374 2011-05-25 01:45:12 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, yes it will
375 2011-05-25 01:45:20 <gjs278> I know I've sent 0 transaction fees and they saw my send immediately
376 2011-05-25 01:45:23 <jrmithdobbs> assuming you have good connectivity, anyways
377 2011-05-25 01:45:32 <BitterTea> Hm, I guess I've just never seen an incoming tx sit around unconfirmed for a long time
378 2011-05-25 01:46:02 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: If you're so sure this works, why aren't you doing it?
379 2011-05-25 01:46:11 <lfm> BitterTea: ya some of the antispamming measures were causing some delays that way
380 2011-05-25 01:46:29 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: who says i'm not
381 2011-05-25 01:46:42 <lfm> so why complain then?
382 2011-05-25 01:46:51 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: Lol... Ok, then why are you telling us this? Do you propose some solution to this "problem"?
383 2011-05-25 01:46:55 <jrmithdobbs> because it shouldn't work and isn't healthy
384 2011-05-25 01:46:57 <jrmithdobbs> heh
385 2011-05-25 01:47:09 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: mtgox leaks too much data imho
386 2011-05-25 01:47:14 <jrmithdobbs> s/leaks/provides/
387 2011-05-25 01:47:18 <BitterTea> Again, you are assuming that others should share your subjective value judgements
388 2011-05-25 01:47:19 <gjs278> I'd rather they provded more
389 2011-05-25 01:47:19 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, just means that buyers aren't being to smart
390 2011-05-25 01:47:21 <gjs278> than they hid
391 2011-05-25 01:47:37 <davex__> jrmithdobbs, it won't necessarily always work.  you might get left in the dust on the next big run up in bitcoin price.
392 2011-05-25 01:47:38 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: Leaks what information? I'm curious what you mean
393 2011-05-25 01:47:38 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, hint they provide the same info that the nyse does
394 2011-05-25 01:47:46 <gjs278> the price of coins for one!!!
395 2011-05-25 01:47:54 <BitterTea> lol
396 2011-05-25 01:48:01 <gribble> 126502
397 2011-05-25 01:48:01 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
398 2011-05-25 01:48:19 <erbs> ;;bc,pizza
399 2011-05-25 01:48:19 <gribble> Error: "bc,pizza" is not a valid command.
400 2011-05-25 01:48:27 <BitterTea> That will be the day
401 2011-05-25 01:49:01 <phantomcircuit> bah
402 2011-05-25 01:49:06 <BitterTea> <@gribble> Send 0.015 BTC to the following address and your pizza will be delivered within 30 minutes.
403 2011-05-25 01:49:06 <phantomcircuit> 109k blocks
404 2011-05-25 01:49:09 <phantomcircuit> GO FASTER
405 2011-05-25 01:49:23 <stuhood> lol
406 2011-05-25 01:56:57 <genjix> ;;seen tcatm
407 2011-05-25 01:56:57 <gribble> tcatm was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 3 hours, 37 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <tcatm> listtransactions in recent versions
408 2011-05-25 01:57:13 <GarrettB> phantomcircuit: why the rush?
409 2011-05-25 01:57:24 <BitterTea> Our bet :)
410 2011-05-25 01:57:31 <GarrettB> which is
411 2011-05-25 01:57:46 <BitterTea> Oh, he's going to send me 20 BTC and as soon as I see it appear (without any confirmations) I'll send him 1
412 2011-05-25 01:58:02 <GarrettB> that doesn't sound like a bet
413 2011-05-25 01:58:32 <BitterTea> Well, I assume he's betting that some sneaky idea of his will work and the 20 BTC will never confirm
414 2011-05-25 01:58:44 <BitterTea> And I'm betting that it won't work
415 2011-05-25 01:58:51 <GarrettB> oh, well, I'd take your side bittertea
416 2011-05-25 01:58:53 <phantomcircuit> ps i already tested it
417 2011-05-25 01:59:14 <BitterTea> Will you share it with us after the bet is concluded?
418 2011-05-25 01:59:30 <phantomcircuit> you'll be able to figure out why after without help
419 2011-05-25 01:59:35 <BitterTea> ok
420 2011-05-25 01:59:38 <gjs278> if he does that then he won't be able to sucker anyone else
421 2011-05-25 02:00:05 <BitterTea> Hey, I'm not a sucker if I go into it knowing full well I may lose 1 BTC
422 2011-05-25 02:00:37 <mmoya> what hash function is used in merkle root ?
423 2011-05-25 02:01:05 <lfm> mmoya: it is the same sha256(sha256(txn)) hash
424 2011-05-25 02:02:46 <lfm> or sha256(sha256(hash | hash))
425 2011-05-25 02:02:58 <lfm> concat I think, not or
426 2011-05-25 02:03:07 <phantomcircuit> 111195
427 2011-05-25 02:03:08 <phantomcircuit> sigh
428 2011-05-25 02:03:11 <gribble> 126505
429 2011-05-25 02:03:11 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
430 2011-05-25 02:03:47 <mmoya> lfm: just playing with python and I'm not getting the correct hash
431 2011-05-25 02:04:01 <mmoya> for example, in http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/000000000000aba541225c5dae14735e36e5e3e607239778cf6c705c8ed16979
432 2011-05-25 02:04:14 <lfm> mmoya: try it with single txn block first
433 2011-05-25 02:04:30 <mmoya> should I do a sha256(sha256('648e15941706bb251608beb6ed7d273eb51c988f4a8a52f3acd4778c9266ee61' + 'e5c5fe0c589b6a002c559d68e04189c3749a6b9034b9ed4033e3b158dabb9a7b'))
434 2011-05-25 02:04:34 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * rb0bf52c8e58e supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/Market/ (plugin.py test.py): Market: add options to ticker command to retrieve individual numbers http://tinyurl.com/3wkq4r6
435 2011-05-25 02:04:56 <mmoya> those are the 2 hashes before the last one
436 2011-05-25 02:05:36 <lfm> mmoya: not sure exactly the hash of hashes details
437 2011-05-25 02:05:55 <erbs> did anyone tell me if bitcoin should be capitalized or not
438 2011-05-25 02:06:09 <phantomcircuit> mmoya, sha256 from hashlib?
439 2011-05-25 02:06:15 <lfm> erbs prolly should be as a proper name
440 2011-05-25 02:06:19 <erbs> i c
441 2011-05-25 02:06:45 <phantomcircuit> mmoya, hashlib.sha256(hashlib.sha256().digest()).digest()
442 2011-05-25 02:06:59 <lfm> mmoya: hash the binary of the hases, not the hex chars, right?
443 2011-05-25 02:07:15 <mmoya> lfm: mmm, I'm hashing the hexchars
444 2011-05-25 02:07:44 <lfm> mmoya: ok thats first mistake! grin
445 2011-05-25 02:08:12 <ar4s> phantomcircuit: I've been waiting almost an hour for a btc transaction. can I assume this is too long?
446 2011-05-25 02:08:42 <lfm> ar4s: maybe, maybe not, did you include a fee?
447 2011-05-25 02:08:51 <phantomcircuit> ar4s, that you sent?
448 2011-05-25 02:09:09 <ar4s> No, that I'm supposed to receive.
449 2011-05-25 02:09:17 <jrmithdobbs> they didn't send it
450 2011-05-25 02:09:19 <erbs> ;;bc,mtgox
451 2011-05-25 02:09:19 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.51,"low":6.96,"vol":29638,"buy":7.3001,"sell":7.39,"last":7.3001}}
452 2011-05-25 02:09:19 <jrmithdobbs> simple
453 2011-05-25 02:09:29 <erbs> ;;bc,stats
454 2011-05-25 02:09:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 126506 | Current Difficulty: 244139.48158254 | Next Difficulty At Block: 127007 | Next Difficulty In: 501 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 20 hours, 23 minutes, and 39 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 410806.35015810
455 2011-05-25 02:09:45 <ar4s> my Bitcoin app is set to a transaction of 0.01
456 2011-05-25 02:09:49 <phantomcircuit> ar4s, what jrmithdobbs said
457 2011-05-25 02:09:55 <ar4s> :|
458 2011-05-25 02:10:10 <ar4s> well fuck.
459 2011-05-25 02:10:21 <jrmithdobbs> ar4s: if it didn't show up on bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin within 5-10 minutes they didn't send it
460 2011-05-25 02:10:30 <jrmithdobbs> ar4s: get scammed?
461 2011-05-25 02:10:46 <ar4s> it would seem so.. I'll give the benefit of the doubt for now...
462 2011-05-25 02:11:02 <jrmithdobbs> if you already gave them whatever you were going to .... you got scammed
463 2011-05-25 02:11:16 <phantomcircuit> ar4s, it's entirely possible for them to see the transaction on their side without it actually being sent out
464 2011-05-25 02:11:25 <phantomcircuit> ar4s, the networking code is sufficiently screwed up
465 2011-05-25 02:11:31 <nanotube> ar4s: check on bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin
466 2011-05-25 02:11:37 <GarrettB> I waited for ~6 hours for a transaction from a guy in indonesia
467 2011-05-25 02:11:43 <ar4s> nanotube: what am I looking for there?
468 2011-05-25 02:11:44 <GarrettB> dunno what was up with that, but it came through
469 2011-05-25 02:11:50 <GarrettB> the network is all fucked right now, not sure why
470 2011-05-25 02:11:50 <nanotube> ar4s: and ask them if it shows up in their client as 0/unconfirmed, or 0/offline
471 2011-05-25 02:11:53 <phantomcircuit> 266M May 25 06:11 bitcoin.sqlite3
472 2011-05-25 02:11:54 <nanotube> ar4s: look for your address
473 2011-05-25 02:12:05 <ar4s> nanotube: ok thanks, I'll check it out
474 2011-05-25 02:12:19 <ar4s> hrmm, I work for their ISP, I just did a look up
475 2011-05-25 02:12:26 <ar4s> at least I can find out who they are... and where they live..
476 2011-05-25 02:12:26 <GarrettB> lol
477 2011-05-25 02:12:35 <GarrettB> that sounds illegal
478 2011-05-25 02:12:40 <ar4s> perhaps..
479 2011-05-25 02:12:42 <ar4s> ;)
480 2011-05-25 02:12:50 <phantomcircuit> GarrettB, actually it's not in a lot of places
481 2011-05-25 02:12:54 <phantomcircuit> it'll get you fired
482 2011-05-25 02:12:56 <phantomcircuit> but no jail
483 2011-05-25 02:12:57 <ar4s> I can use that as negotiation
484 2011-05-25 02:13:01 <ar4s> ahh
485 2011-05-25 02:13:35 <phantomcircuit> not to mention if he did get scammed he can get a court order anyways
486 2011-05-25 02:13:44 <lfm> unless you're a cop and you're spozed to get a warrent
487 2011-05-25 02:13:46 <BitterTea> phantomcircuit: I gave you the wrong address earlier, please use this one instead 158bCbJzn5bisvmS75JyfsBngfpyxmmXFK
488 2011-05-25 02:14:17 <lfm> BitterTea: lol
489 2011-05-25 02:14:52 <lfm> who did he send the first 20btc to?
490 2011-05-25 02:15:12 <phantomcircuit> haven't yet dont have the full block chain
491 2011-05-25 02:15:41 <BitterTea> what block are you on?
492 2011-05-25 02:15:50 <phantomcircuit> 118198
493 2011-05-25 02:15:54 <BitterTea> dang son
494 2011-05-25 02:16:03 <lfm> oh, I think I see what you're doing then phantomcircuit , doing a double spend on a partly downloaded block chain?
495 2011-05-25 02:16:04 <ar4s> nanotube: I don't see my wallet listed on bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin
496 2011-05-25 02:16:08 <BitterTea> oh, nvm. for some reason I thought we were over 200k :)
497 2011-05-25 02:16:27 <phantomcircuit> lfm, nope
498 2011-05-25 02:16:38 <phantomcircuit> ill give a hint
499 2011-05-25 02:16:40 <BitterTea> I assumed he made multiple copies of a wallet and is running it in two instances of Bitcoin
500 2011-05-25 02:16:44 <phantomcircuit> my attack is against the btc ui
501 2011-05-25 02:16:54 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: don't think so
502 2011-05-25 02:17:01 <jrmithdobbs> thought so
503 2011-05-25 02:17:26 <BitterTea> I'll be afk for 10 mins or so
504 2011-05-25 02:17:26 <phantomcircuit> critical info isn't displayed
505 2011-05-25 02:17:27 <phantomcircuit> 119198
506 2011-05-25 02:17:32 <GarrettB> heh
507 2011-05-25 02:17:39 <GarrettB> he'll send 20 testnet coins?
508 2011-05-25 02:17:42 <BitterTea> msg me your address so I see it when I get back
509 2011-05-25 02:17:45 <GarrettB> no, that wouldn't work I don't think
510 2011-05-25 02:17:59 <BitterTea> testnet addresses start with M I thikn
511 2011-05-25 02:18:08 <lfm> small m
512 2011-05-25 02:18:46 <phantomcircuit> blah
513 2011-05-25 02:18:48 <phantomcircuit> so slow
514 2011-05-25 02:19:03 <GarrettB> send an invalid tx?
515 2011-05-25 02:19:11 <gribble> Error: "bc,block" is not a valid command.
516 2011-05-25 02:19:11 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,block
517 2011-05-25 02:19:14 <phantomcircuit> nope
518 2011-05-25 02:19:15 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
519 2011-05-25 02:19:16 <gribble> 126508
520 2011-05-25 02:19:18 <phantomcircuit> you wont guess it
521 2011-05-25 02:19:29 <lfm> BitterTea: good luck
522 2011-05-25 02:19:29 <phantomcircuit> attack is hilariously simple
523 2011-05-25 02:19:52 <phantomcircuit> ah hell i have to improve some code
524 2011-05-25 02:20:02 <phantomcircuit> nvm ill do it in like 2 days
525 2011-05-25 02:20:08 <phantomcircuit> definitely wont be fixed by then
526 2011-05-25 02:20:13 <doublec> someone a while back was accidentally mining on a fork of the chain. He only found out when he sent a few thousand for sale and they stayed at unconfirmed.
527 2011-05-25 02:20:17 <GarrettB> hmm, phantomcircuit do you have BitterTea's IP?
528 2011-05-25 02:20:21 <phantomcircuit> there's no way to do it from the mainline client
529 2011-05-25 02:20:25 <phantomcircuit> GarrettB, nope
530 2011-05-25 02:20:29 <BitterTea> aw, bummer
531 2011-05-25 02:20:36 <BitterTea> I'm ready now too ;)
532 2011-05-25 02:20:36 <doublec> he sounded heartbroken that 3 months of mining effort were down the tubes
533 2011-05-25 02:20:50 <BitterTea> doublec: How can that happen?
534 2011-05-25 02:20:57 <doublec> I'll see if I can find the thread
535 2011-05-25 02:21:05 <phantomcircuit> if your network isn't connected
536 2011-05-25 02:21:08 <BitterTea> Was he on a smaller disconnected network?
537 2011-05-25 02:21:19 <BitterTea> Oh, yeah I guess that would suck
538 2011-05-25 02:21:19 <GarrettB> lol did his miner disconnect from the internet?
539 2011-05-25 02:21:23 <GarrettB> that would be hilarious
540 2011-05-25 02:21:30 <GarrettB> poor guy
541 2011-05-25 02:21:47 <lfm> doublec: huh? whats was he mining offline or something dumb?
542 2011-05-25 02:21:49 <doublec> BitterTea: yes I think so
543 2011-05-25 02:22:12 <stuhood> that should be nearly impossible at the current difficulty though, right?
544 2011-05-25 02:22:51 <stuhood> assuming you had ever been connected long enough to get the existing block chain and difficulty
545 2011-05-25 02:23:03 <phantomcircuit> yes
546 2011-05-25 02:23:07 <phantomcircuit> you'd notice pretty soon
547 2011-05-25 02:23:30 <Carandiru> failminer
548 2011-05-25 02:23:34 <lfm> stuhood: ya depends how much horsepower he had and how long ago it was
549 2011-05-25 02:23:45 <doublec> this was last year
550 2011-05-25 02:23:51 <BitterTea> phantomcircuit: What would you notice?
551 2011-05-25 02:24:00 <BitterTea> What am I missing?
552 2011-05-25 02:24:05 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, block count wouldn't be increasing
553 2011-05-25 02:24:13 <BitterTea> Ah
554 2011-05-25 02:24:16 <stuhood> 2160 veeery slow blocks
555 2011-05-25 02:24:19 <stuhood> 2016*
556 2011-05-25 02:24:38 <BitterTea> Would be funny if it was right before a difficulty calculation
557 2011-05-25 02:24:45 <BitterTea> No, that wouldn't work, nevermind
558 2011-05-25 02:25:00 <lfm> ya if he had a couple gpu last fall and they were only talking to each other, nothing outside somehow maybe
559 2011-05-25 02:27:07 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, fuck nvm
560 2011-05-25 02:27:09 <phantomcircuit> attack doesn't work
561 2011-05-25 02:27:27 <phantomcircuit> lame
562 2011-05-25 02:27:38 <jrmithdobbs> what'd you think you'd found?
563 2011-05-25 02:27:44 <phantomcircuit> although the attack will at some random point in the future work
564 2011-05-25 02:27:48 <phantomcircuit> so id rather not say
565 2011-05-25 02:29:15 <GarrettB> haha
566 2011-05-25 02:29:18 <GarrettB> so
567 2011-05-25 02:29:25 <GarrettB> what is the attack?
568 2011-05-25 02:30:05 <GarrettB> also, didn't you say you had tested it ;)
569 2011-05-25 02:31:02 <JFK911> phantomcircuit: we have the same idea i think
570 2011-05-25 02:31:57 <BitterTea> phantomcircuit: That's too bad, I was going to use BitcoinJ to immediately forward the tx to my Bitcoin client
571 2011-05-25 02:32:11 <BitterTea> I'm not sure it would have affected the outcome or not
572 2011-05-25 02:32:13 <phantomcircuit> JFK911, maybe
573 2011-05-25 02:32:32 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, it might have if you were paying attention
574 2011-05-25 02:33:04 <BitterTea> You mean if I created a new transaction with yours as an input fast enough?
575 2011-05-25 02:33:07 <doublec> this is the thread http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=1530.0
576 2011-05-25 02:33:14 <doublec> october last year
577 2011-05-25 02:33:44 <doublec> 13,000 bitcoins...ouch
578 2011-05-25 02:33:54 <phantomcircuit> lol i just realized the attack is possible
579 2011-05-25 02:34:00 <phantomcircuit> but is hilariously complicated
580 2011-05-25 02:34:08 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
581 2011-05-25 02:34:10 <gribble> Current Blocks: 126511 | Current Difficulty: 244139.48158254 | Next Difficulty At Block: 127007 | Next Difficulty In: 496 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 19 hours, 48 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 411055.61616385
582 2011-05-25 02:34:13 <gjs278> lol
583 2011-05-25 02:34:15 <gjs278> 411
584 2011-05-25 02:34:38 <BitterTea> doublec: Wow, back at block 1698?
585 2011-05-25 02:34:45 <doublec> yeah
586 2011-05-25 02:34:51 <stuhood> haha
587 2011-05-25 02:34:56 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, the attack would work BETTER than i had previously thought but would require significant knowledge of the network topology
588 2011-05-25 02:35:15 <BitterTea> interesting
589 2011-05-25 02:35:38 <doublec> you would think he would have noticed generating blocks at difficulty 1
590 2011-05-25 02:36:48 <BitterTea> 13,000 BTC in 3 months at diff 1?
591 2011-05-25 02:37:37 <BitterTea> Probably just one CPU?
592 2011-05-25 02:37:47 <doublec> looks like it
593 2011-05-25 02:38:04 <doublec> this was mostly pre-gpu days
594 2011-05-25 02:38:39 <BitterTea> Man, it's always really nostalgic feeling seeing satoshi's posts, even though he was gone by the time I found Bitcoin
595 2011-05-25 02:39:15 <phantomcircuit> SIGHASH_NONE
596 2011-05-25 02:39:16 <phantomcircuit> lol wtf
597 2011-05-25 02:39:21 <phantomcircuit> that's basically
598 2011-05-25 02:39:28 <phantomcircuit> "throw money into the crowd"
599 2011-05-25 02:39:38 <gmaxwell> heh? where?
600 2011-05-25 02:39:48 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, script.cpp
601 2011-05-25 02:40:08 <gmaxwell> oh, I thought you'd seen a TX with that in the wild.
602 2011-05-25 02:40:27 <phantomcircuit> no
603 2011-05-25 02:40:37 <phantomcircuit> i dont think you can even do that with the mainline client
604 2011-05-25 02:41:02 <gmaxwell> You can't. but I was ready to hack something up to redeem it!
605 2011-05-25 02:42:32 <jrmithdobbs> haha right
606 2011-05-25 02:43:42 <phantomcircuit> god
607 2011-05-25 02:43:48 <phantomcircuit> why is that even included
608 2011-05-25 02:43:50 <phantomcircuit> insanity
609 2011-05-25 02:44:05 <jrmithdobbs> cyberpunk idealism
610 2011-05-25 02:44:09 <jrmithdobbs> you really have to ask?
611 2011-05-25 02:44:20 <BitterTea> I think I saw Mike or Gavin use it in an example of escrow or some other transaction
612 2011-05-25 02:44:22 <gmaxwell> eh, it could have some use.
613 2011-05-25 02:44:58 <BitterTea> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=8821.0
614 2011-05-25 02:44:59 <gmaxwell> for example, I could give you a TX written like that via sneakernet and then you mine the block yourself to solve it.
615 2011-05-25 02:45:05 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: Boom, lawyered :)
616 2011-05-25 02:45:06 <devrandom> does anybody know if there are charts of $/BTC and diff on same graph?
617 2011-05-25 02:45:10 <gmaxwell> hm. why not just have zero output for that.. hmm.
618 2011-05-25 02:45:42 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, sure you could, but why?
619 2011-05-25 02:45:43 <lfm> gmaxwell: like a bearer bond eh?
620 2011-05-25 02:45:51 <BitterTea> gmaxwell: Look at the first post in the linked thread
621 2011-05-25 02:46:15 <lfm> gmaxwell: except photocopier vulnerable
622 2011-05-25 02:46:17 <BitterTea> Mike describes how to use a pair of transactions, one using SIGHASH_NONE, to do an escrow transaction
623 2011-05-25 02:46:31 <gmaxwell> ah... hah awesome.
624 2011-05-25 02:47:34 <BitterTea> If Bitcoin takes off, there are two things I see becoming big - custom scripting and custom hardware devices
625 2011-05-25 02:47:42 <gmaxwell> I couldn't figure out how to make time limited transactions with a script.
626 2011-05-25 02:47:50 <gmaxwell> e.g. TX that are only good before/after some blocknumber.
627 2011-05-25 02:48:28 <BitterTea> I've seen that discussed, but I don't remember if it was currently possible or not
628 2011-05-25 02:48:52 <gmaxwell> I've now forgotten why I want it. oh maybe it was to create self-releasing escrow.
629 2011-05-25 02:50:23 <jrmithdobbs> aren't like half the script commands disabled atm in the official client anyways?
630 2011-05-25 02:50:28 <BitterTea> yeah
631 2011-05-25 02:50:34 <jrmithdobbs> instead of fixing them
632 2011-05-25 02:50:41 <BitterTea> There's not much incentive to
633 2011-05-25 02:50:43 <BitterTea> *right now
634 2011-05-25 02:50:52 <BitterTea> Due to the possible security risks
635 2011-05-25 02:51:20 <jrmithdobbs> but that's where all the usefulness of bitcoin actually lies
636 2011-05-25 02:51:23 <BitterTea> However, in the future if there are large companies using bitcoin... many more resources could be devoted to security, which might allow all sorts of crazy scripting
637 2011-05-25 02:51:25 <jrmithdobbs> past speculation
638 2011-05-25 02:51:30 <BitterTea> Not all of it
639 2011-05-25 02:51:33 <gmaxwell> Someone needs to sit back and write a good hardened client, to help deal with that.
640 2011-05-25 02:51:36 <BitterTea> It works great to send payments now
641 2011-05-25 02:51:39 <BitterTea> And to store value
642 2011-05-25 02:52:02 <BitterTea> gmaxwell: I think the security will come with adoption
643 2011-05-25 02:52:21 <jrmithdobbs> that comment makes me want to punch you in the face
644 2011-05-25 02:52:23 <jrmithdobbs> jfyi
645 2011-05-25 02:52:43 <gmaxwell> doublec: need to talk you into writing one in ATS or some other validation facilitating language.
646 2011-05-25 02:52:51 <jrmithdobbs> it's been proven over and over again that the inverse is almost universally the case
647 2011-05-25 02:53:04 <doublec> gmaxwell: yeah I've been tempted
648 2011-05-25 02:53:17 <gmaxwell> unfortunately security is a lemon market.
649 2011-05-25 02:53:18 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: GFY. What's the incentive for someone to spend lots of time/money working on security right now?
650 2011-05-25 02:53:36 <BitterTea> not a lot compared to when the market size has increased by a factor of 10 or more
651 2011-05-25 02:53:59 <BitterTea> If you want to punch people in the face for stating an opinion you should reevaluate your life
652 2011-05-25 02:54:34 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: you take the internet very seriously.
653 2011-05-25 02:54:37 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, it's not possible currently
654 2011-05-25 02:54:40 <gmaxwell> BitterTea: some opinions are harmful and deserve face punching but I don't agree with jrmithdobbs here.
655 2011-05-25 02:54:43 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, like so many things it's disabled
656 2011-05-25 02:55:13 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: I'm not the one getting angry enough to want to punch people, I think you're projecting again
657 2011-05-25 02:55:28 <devrandom> phantomcircuit - what's disabled?
658 2011-05-25 02:55:29 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: there's no incentive for anyone outside of those with commit access to work on bitcoin proper period atm tbqh
659 2011-05-25 02:55:46 <BitterTea> You said someone should develop a "hardened bitcoin client"
660 2011-05-25 02:55:46 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: a) everyone filched on any open bounties
661 2011-05-25 02:55:59 <phantomcircuit> there's actually quite a few transactions with sequence=0
662 2011-05-25 02:56:03 <gmaxwell> doublec: perhaps if you solicited around you could find someone to make it more attractive. A hardened daemon with good scale and all the scripting enabled might be pretty attractive to those few making 20k+ a month on bitcoin. :)
663 2011-05-25 02:56:06 <phantomcircuit> i count 7 of them
664 2011-05-25 02:56:19 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: b) they wont take anything outside of translation commits anyways
665 2011-05-25 02:56:54 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: I'm really confused, are you saying they won't allow additional developers?
666 2011-05-25 02:57:18 <BitterTea> And that the current ones won't accept pull requests for bug fixes or security upgrades?
667 2011-05-25 02:57:18 <doublec> gmaxwell: that's a good point. Pity mozilla doesn't do 20% time projects.
668 2011-05-25 02:57:33 <jrmithdobbs> essentially, yes
669 2011-05-25 02:57:37 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, yes that's what he is saying...
670 2011-05-25 02:57:51 <BitterTea> I'm skeptical
671 2011-05-25 02:57:59 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, he speaks truth
672 2011-05-25 02:58:02 <jrmithdobbs> go look at the pull request list.
673 2011-05-25 02:58:20 <jrmithdobbs> there's pulls in there that have been being forward ported for months
674 2011-05-25 02:58:48 <stuhood> the historical approach for oss projects is to threaten-to-or-actually fork
675 2011-05-25 02:59:05 <doublec> gmaxwell: it'd be a good test for ATS too. How well does it really fulfill its promise in a real world application.
676 2011-05-25 02:59:07 <stuhood> has been to*
677 2011-05-25 02:59:42 <BitterTea> I'm not familiar with open source development processes, but I'm not seeing the correlation between pull requests and lack of development initiative
678 2011-05-25 02:59:49 <gmaxwell> doublec: it really would, and it's one where ATS's properties are important. It breaks into lots of little parts easily (well, a lot of software does, but not everything)
679 2011-05-25 03:00:20 <phantomcircuit> stuhood, sure but you risk forking the block chain with every software fork
680 2011-05-25 03:00:59 <stuhood> phantomcircuit: as long as the protocol is really well documented, i'm not sure that it would be a bad thing to have some competing forks, in the same way that there are competing miners
681 2011-05-25 03:01:15 <phantomcircuit> the protocol is trivial
682 2011-05-25 03:01:24 <phantomcircuit> the rules to prevent spam and other random things though are not
683 2011-05-25 03:01:28 <doublec> there are already forks. The big pools each probably have their own modified softwar.
684 2011-05-25 03:01:29 <stuhood> would certainly help reinforce the core concept that other nodes can't be trusted
685 2011-05-25 03:01:33 <theymos> Forks based on the same C++ code is pretty safe. What you want to avoid is reimplementing the core stuff.
686 2011-05-25 03:01:38 <stuhood> doublec: right, that too
687 2011-05-25 03:01:48 <gmaxwell> luke-jr is certantly running a modified bitcoind.
688 2011-05-25 03:01:57 <doublec> yeah, to do the generated transactions
689 2011-05-25 03:02:04 <jrmithdobbs> doublec: because they wont accept the patches that make bitcoind usable in the pool scenario
690 2011-05-25 03:02:12 <gmaxwell> theymos: you want reimplementations of the whole thing so the whole network doesn't have the same bugs.
691 2011-05-25 03:02:31 <doublec> right. you don't want one bug to bring down all clients.
692 2011-05-25 03:02:32 <jrmithdobbs> doublec: the rpc netcode fucking dies if you throw more than ~12 miners at it that can actually exhaust their getwork requests
693 2011-05-25 03:02:39 <jrmithdobbs> for instance
694 2011-05-25 03:02:45 <luke-jr> more imporant than a well-documented core protocol, is a good regression test
695 2011-05-25 03:02:47 <gmaxwell> theymos: imagine that there was a parsing bug that made it possible to create a generate TX that gives you 100000 BTC.  You want there to be a lot of clients that reject that block.
696 2011-05-25 03:03:08 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, yes
697 2011-05-25 03:03:19 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, there needs to be eh hem a SHITLOAD of tests
698 2011-05-25 03:03:20 <stuhood> luke-jr: true.
699 2011-05-25 03:03:25 <phantomcircuit> and afaict there are currently 0
700 2011-05-25 03:03:49 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: How do you propose to fix that problem?
701 2011-05-25 03:03:58 <theymos> gmaxwell: You'll end up on a separate chain unless you have >50% of the network. If you have 50% of the network, then *your* bugs will cause problems.
702 2011-05-25 03:04:06 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: there's a pull request been sitting on github that "mostly" fixes it for quite a while
703 2011-05-25 03:04:19 <gmaxwell> theymos: which is why we want no client to have but a fraction of the network.
704 2011-05-25 03:04:55 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: Are you talking about monitortx or something?
705 2011-05-25 03:05:05 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: no https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/214
706 2011-05-25 03:05:22 <theymos> Probably you could do everything but Script if you were really careful. Reimplementing Script seems nearly impossible.
707 2011-05-25 03:06:04 <gmaxwell> theymos: I don't see why you say that.
708 2011-05-25 03:06:05 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: if they actually want bitcoin adopted by merchants and not just speculators that patch is a requirement as are the other enhancements he mentions
709 2011-05-25 03:06:07 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: That's like two weeks old, and I haven't seen discussion about it on the forums
710 2011-05-25 03:06:13 <gmaxwell> Script isn't especially hideous.
711 2011-05-25 03:06:41 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: exactly. participation in an annoying community of 14yo libertarians is required to get a good piece of code accepted.
712 2011-05-25 03:06:50 <stuhood> jrmithdobbs: if you care about that ticket, perhaps you should comment on it?
713 2011-05-25 03:06:53 <gmaxwell> Especially since scripts are pure functions you could create a pretty good testshim to make sure you got the same behavior.
714 2011-05-25 03:07:10 <gmaxwell> Not just pure functions but ones which always halt.
715 2011-05-25 03:07:20 <BitterTea> Oh fucking please, a discussion on a patch isn't going to get mobbed with libertarians
716 2011-05-25 03:07:35 <jrmithdobbs> that is not my patch fyi
717 2011-05-25 03:07:44 <stuhood> so?
718 2011-05-25 03:07:46 <theymos> gmaxwell: It's very dangerous, though. If your version of Script ever returns something even slightly different from Bitcoin's Script, you'll end up on a fork.
719 2011-05-25 03:08:04 <gmaxwell> theymos: yes, reasons to test the everlasting @#$@ out of it.
720 2011-05-25 03:08:16 <BitterTea> theymos: Couldn't you test your implementation on the existing block chain?
721 2011-05-25 03:08:16 <gmaxwell> And reasons to get an independant version _today_
722 2011-05-25 03:08:41 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: and compare it to what expect output?
723 2011-05-25 03:08:54 <jrmithdobbs> s/expect/expected/
724 2011-05-25 03:09:00 <doublec> that's all great reasons to implement a clean version of it, document it and have tests for it.
725 2011-05-25 03:09:03 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: all the script stuff is currently disabled.
726 2011-05-25 03:09:05 <theymos> BitterTea: There are only three strange transactions on the block chain. You need to worry about every possible transaction script. I wouldn't be confident that any testing would be complete.
727 2011-05-25 03:09:09 <gmaxwell> theymos: coming from a background of writing multimedia codecs where every criticial bit must be handled exactly with algorithims far more complicated than script, I'm not too worried.
728 2011-05-25 03:09:11 <jrmithdobbs> well, all the interesting script stuff
729 2011-05-25 03:09:24 <gmaxwell> theymos: the worst is that there is hidden boundary behavior that you need to carefully identify and test.
730 2011-05-25 03:10:12 <gmaxwell> theymos: a lot of the behavior with script you can even prove identical by testing all possible input states (with some simplifications of reducing things like matches to 1 bit states)
731 2011-05-25 03:11:10 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: I really don't see how those two pull requests of jordan's make or break Bitcoin for merchants
732 2011-05-25 03:11:34 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: you don't see how being able to have more than 1-2 concurrent connections without choking the client is a necessity to anyone processing payments on any kind of scale?
733 2011-05-25 03:12:13 <theymos> gmaxwell: You don't have to worry only about what most scripts will be. You have to worry about an attacker who will want to cause a fork. This is also a difference from codecs: no one's *trying* to create an incompatability in your software.
734 2011-05-25 03:12:23 <gmaxwell> theymos: moreover, if you can prove that all script commands work the same then that proves all scripts work the same (so long as you also validate a couple extra boundary conditions)
735 2011-05-25 03:12:32 <BitterTea> I'm not convinced that the problem is as bad as you say
736 2011-05-25 03:13:00 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: so test it. throw 16 ~331mhash/s miners at bitcoind proper
737 2011-05-25 03:13:09 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: it fucking chokes.
738 2011-05-25 03:13:15 <stuhood> jrmithdobbs: the burden of proof is on you
739 2011-05-25 03:13:19 <gmaxwell> theymos: Yes, they do. And we've had to guard against that. (1) to drive implementations into undefined behavior where they can be exploited, and (2) to make subtile interop issues in order to screw with competition.
740 2011-05-25 03:13:22 <jrmithdobbs> i have tested it
741 2011-05-25 03:13:27 <jrmithdobbs> it fucking chokes
742 2011-05-25 03:13:29 <stuhood> so post your test to that ticket
743 2011-05-25 03:13:37 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: Is that essential to the functioning of the bitcoin economy?
744 2011-05-25 03:13:37 <stuhood> rather than complaining about it
745 2011-05-25 03:13:58 <BitterTea> I just find it hard to believe that this is *such* a big problem yet is being ignored for whatever reason
746 2011-05-25 03:14:07 <gmaxwell> theymos: and we have a lot more entropy on our inputs than scripts do. There is very little in a codec that I can exhaustively test.
747 2011-05-25 03:14:24 <gmaxwell> theymos: most of the script commands can be exaustively tested. (maybe all? not quite sure about that)
748 2011-05-25 03:15:15 <BitterTea> gmaxwell: I think he has a point that the failure scenarios for the projects are vastly different
749 2011-05-25 03:15:15 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: um, obviously yes. it generates about 3-4 concurrent rpc connections ... runinng on a 3.2Ghzish 2-3 gen old xeon
750 2011-05-25 03:15:24 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: which should easily be able to handle that load
751 2011-05-25 03:15:41 <gmaxwell> BitterTea: yes, quite true. But some of the techniques are common.
752 2011-05-25 03:15:43 <jrmithdobbs> if it wasn't stuck on blocked io calls instead of processing requests
753 2011-05-25 03:15:59 <BitterTea> jrmithdobbs: So if it's that big of a deal, build jordan's version?
754 2011-05-25 03:16:12 <BitterTea> Test it, submit it to the forum and show your results
755 2011-05-25 03:16:13 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: i already integrate his patch in the builds i run
756 2011-05-25 03:17:39 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: look i'm not just raging here, you asked for an example, i gave you one ... just looking at the patch it's obvious what it solves and mind boggling that it wasn't done this way in the first place
757 2011-05-25 03:18:33 <Ratt> So, if I generated a block, listtransactions shows that it's immature and how many confirms it has... but how do I know what block number it was that was solved
758 2011-05-25 03:18:46 <BitterTea> Yeah, 385 additions and 103 deletions, that should just be integrated right in to the main Bitcoin client without discussion or testing
759 2011-05-25 03:18:53 <stuhood> jrmithdobbs: so you're saying you've tested that patch, proved that it solved the problem, and not indicated that in the comments?
760 2011-05-25 03:19:30 <BitterTea> You're right, it probably should have been async in the first place
761 2011-05-25 03:20:30 <doublec> Ratt: subtract the number of confirmations from the current block count
762 2011-05-25 03:20:57 <Ratt> Heh... didn't think about that!  I guess that makes perfect sense. :)  Thanks!
763 2011-05-25 03:21:04 <doublec> np
764 2011-05-25 03:22:08 <jrmithdobbs> I gave up trying to convince them of anything after being told that implementing posix1.e capabilities was overengineering and that preforking/threaded request handlers don't mitigate dos situations
765 2011-05-25 03:22:09 <Nightwolf_> Helo good morning
766 2011-05-25 03:22:31 <Nightwolf_> i am new a bitcoin
767 2011-05-25 03:23:11 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: how's that for honesty?
768 2011-05-25 03:24:52 <BitterTea> To be honest, it sounds like me that you're bitter that your request was not accepted, but that's just my opinion
769 2011-05-25 03:25:04 <BitterTea> *sounds to me like
770 2011-05-25 03:25:27 <gmaxwell> It's not his request.
771 2011-05-25 03:25:36 <gmaxwell> It's a patch both he and luke-jr are using, though.
772 2011-05-25 03:25:54 <BitterTea> He has two pull requests on github
773 2011-05-25 03:26:01 <BitterTea> both from two weeks ago
774 2011-05-25 03:26:32 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: ?
775 2011-05-25 03:26:39 <theymos> What does the patch do?
776 2011-05-25 03:26:51 <BitterTea> The async bitcoind IO patch?
777 2011-05-25 03:26:56 <luke-jr> I don't use that.
778 2011-05-25 03:27:04 <luke-jr> fwiw
779 2011-05-25 03:27:08 <gmaxwell> oh, I thought you did.
780 2011-05-25 03:27:19 <luke-jr> no, I use my own multi-threaded JSON-RPC patch
781 2011-05-25 03:27:25 <luke-jr> which I wrote before his
782 2011-05-25 03:27:33 <gmaxwell> ah.
783 2011-05-25 03:27:52 <luke-jr> mine is a hack tho
784 2011-05-25 03:27:54 <luke-jr> ;)
785 2011-05-25 03:28:11 <phantomcircuit> lol
786 2011-05-25 03:28:28 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, there's a guy in ##crypto who claims he can break bitcoin with a rack of servers
787 2011-05-25 03:28:30 <phantomcircuit> im lolin
788 2011-05-25 03:29:03 <BitterTea> I love when people say "it's so easy to perform $profitable_attack" but don't
789 2011-05-25 03:29:15 <phantomcircuit> yeah that's what i told him
790 2011-05-25 03:29:17 <phantomcircuit> "then do it"
791 2011-05-25 03:29:40 <gmaxwell> "but it would be evil" "Then do it to the testnet"
792 2011-05-25 03:29:49 <theymos> (Googled it.) Bitcoin Block Explorer's RPC has been doing well with whatever 0.3.19 does. At what point does load cause problems?
793 2011-05-25 03:29:59 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: don't really care if they accept my patch but the basic concepts of least privelege and common network code design patterns in the maintainers of software such as this irks me greatly
794 2011-05-25 03:30:27 <jrmithdobbs> BitterTea: err s/patterns/patterns not being understood by/
795 2011-05-25 03:31:00 <stuhood> agreed
796 2011-05-25 03:31:24 <BitterTea> Ok, you think it's a high priority
797 2011-05-25 03:31:52 <BitterTea> Others seem to think it's not, I don't know how to resolve that
798 2011-05-25 03:32:11 <stuhood> (testcases help)
799 2011-05-25 03:32:17 <BitterTea> Why not fork the client, make a more secure one?
800 2011-05-25 03:32:56 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, again you need to be 100% sure you have all the spam prevention rules and other assorted stuff right
801 2011-05-25 03:33:01 <phantomcircuit> otherwise you're screwed
802 2011-05-25 03:33:37 <BitterTea> Is that a problem if you start from the current code?
803 2011-05-25 03:33:54 <gmaxwell> There is also room for special purpose daemons.
804 2011-05-25 03:34:15 <jrmithdobbs> the current code, from a non-ui perspective is archictected backwards
805 2011-05-25 03:34:27 <gmaxwell> spam prevention is less important in a pool daemon or an exchange daemon.
806 2011-05-25 03:34:43 <gmaxwell> someone could make a daemon which only ever listens to the longest chain and ignores TX not in it.
807 2011-05-25 03:35:03 <gmaxwell> (if you're never going to take a non-confirmed TX, why bother listening to anything else)
808 2011-05-25 03:35:15 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, the current code is so bad that refactoring it would be basically a waste of time
809 2011-05-25 03:35:24 <theymos> Bitcoin originally was only a GUI, so it's no surprise that it's not that great with RPC.
810 2011-05-25 03:36:13 <stuhood> phantomcircuit: that ticket dealing with improvements to RPC seem to take some good incremental steps though
811 2011-05-25 03:36:30 <stuhood> phantomcircuit: make rpc async, then internode communication
812 2011-05-25 03:36:47 <phantomcircuit> stuhood, improving rpc could be done incrementally
813 2011-05-25 03:53:25 <gmaxwell> weee.. I'm running bitcoin inside valgrind while fuxxing its network connectivity.
814 2011-05-25 03:53:58 <gmaxwell> managed to trigger a overlapping memcpy.
815 2011-05-25 03:54:21 <gmaxwell> Though unfortunately I was testing it on a system without the debugging symbols, so I dunno where it happened.
816 2011-05-25 03:54:27 <gmaxwell> (doh!)
817 2011-05-25 03:55:47 <kika_> [02:54] <kika_> i connected two 6990 card to the motherboard [02:54] <kika_> and setup the crossfire cable [02:54] <kika_> between the two cards [02:54] <kika_> however when i power on the pc, i dont get signal on the monitor [02:54] <kika_> im using the dvi output [02:55] <kika_> does anyone have idea whats going on ?
818 2011-05-25 03:56:37 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, dear god that much be slow
819 2011-05-25 03:57:45 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's only a 10x slowdown.
820 2011-05-25 03:57:54 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: and I have lots and lots of cores.
821 2011-05-25 03:57:54 <phantomcircuit> lol only
822 2011-05-25 03:58:27 <phantomcircuit> the ui is what gets slow
823 2011-05-25 03:58:31 <gmaxwell> I figure I'll startup a few hundred lossy-bitcoins in valgrind and see if anything fun goes kabloooi.
824 2011-05-25 03:58:42 <gmaxwell> oh yea, well, I mostly don't get a @#$ about the ui.
825 2011-05-25 04:01:23 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: pretty sure we're the only two in this channel that's the case for ;P
826 2011-05-25 04:06:40 <gmaxwell> I've actually never seen the bitcoin UI except in screenshots.
827 2011-05-25 04:07:07 <nathan7> Good morning, world
828 2011-05-25 04:08:07 <gmaxwell> The CLI works pretty well in my expirence. It would be neat to see a gui-stripped hardened bitcoind and the gui just be a rpc client for it. ::shrugs::
829 2011-05-25 04:09:34 <jrmithdobbs> i think long term that's exactly what needs to happen
830 2011-05-25 04:09:53 <jrmithdobbs> or at the least split out all the actual functionality into a library that they both use
831 2011-05-25 04:10:09 <jrmithdobbs> (or a combination of both)
832 2011-05-25 04:10:48 <stuhood> agreed
833 2011-05-25 04:12:25 <jrmithdobbs> just make it work like adb where launching the cli (or gui in this case) launches the 'real' background daemon if not running
834 2011-05-25 04:13:59 <jrmithdobbs> the thought of actually trying to split the functionality in the code base makes my head hurt though :(
835 2011-05-25 04:15:05 <alystair> ;;bc,stats
836 2011-05-25 04:15:08 <gribble> Current Blocks: 126535 | Current Difficulty: 244139.48158254 | Next Difficulty At Block: 127007 | Next Difficulty In: 472 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 17 hours, 2 minutes, and 16 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 412832.38909982
837 2011-05-25 04:22:08 <da2ce7> I'm wanting something quite cool... an openCL video filter system... we have lots of people with openCL experence here anyway...
838 2011-05-25 04:23:13 <da2ce7> so say, if you had a video that is 24FPS the openCL video system could detect inter-fram movement an create frames that move half the distance, so the video could be 48pfs.
839 2011-05-25 04:23:32 <da2ce7> or more advance... create frames so that it is completly smooth at 60 fps.
840 2011-05-25 04:23:51 <da2ce7> :) good use of our gpu's once mining has become not-proffitable.
841 2011-05-25 04:27:30 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.51,"low":6.96,"vol":28819,"buy":7.2121,"sell":7.265,"last":7.2161}}
842 2011-05-25 04:27:30 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
843 2011-05-25 04:32:09 <_ape> anyone know if mac pro radeon 5870s are supported on pc/linux?
844 2011-05-25 04:32:25 <erbs> once you have all these miners with tons of equipment, they will just start bitcoin II (and allow the first 100K blocks to be created nearly instantaneously, at which point it reverts to the stadnard 10 minutes interval)
845 2011-05-25 04:32:55 <erbs> the miners can defect at any time
846 2011-05-25 04:33:26 <stuhood> erbs: it's a symbiotic relationship
847 2011-05-25 04:33:50 <jgarzik> miners without users create valueless coins
848 2011-05-25 04:34:22 <erbs> users will migrate almost transparently
849 2011-05-25 04:34:36 <erbs> future clients will be able to maintain multiple chains (testnet,satoshi genesis block, bitcoin II) etc
850 2011-05-25 04:34:37 <alystair> anyone here?
851 2011-05-25 04:34:49 <alystair> I'm looking at the 5870x2 on the wiki, am I to believe it takes 1500 watts? @_@
852 2011-05-25 04:34:58 <jgarzik> existing coins and existing clients are stuck in the existing system
853 2011-05-25 04:34:59 <erbs> bitcoin I will cease processing tx and users will quickly exchange their coins in for bitcoin II
854 2011-05-25 04:35:13 <jgarzik> not really
855 2011-05-25 04:35:24 <erbs> they would be forced to
856 2011-05-25 04:35:47 <erbs> bitcoin I wouldnt have enough compute power after the miners defect. the existing users would have to accept any deal offered to them
857 2011-05-25 04:36:05 <stuhood> miners leaving the bitcoin 1 chain would create a vacuum& it would become hugely profitable to be mining there
858 2011-05-25 04:36:08 <ArtForz> err... no.
859 2011-05-25 04:36:20 <alystair> hello?
860 2011-05-25 04:36:26 <ArtForz> yep, exactly that
861 2011-05-25 04:36:44 <erbs> stuhood, it would take weeks for non-defecting miners to build enough rigs and systems to match the power of the miners who defected
862 2011-05-25 04:36:55 <erbs> that would bring the economy to a standstill
863 2011-05-25 04:36:59 <ArtForz> err... no.
864 2011-05-25 04:37:11 <alystair> W column in mining hardware comparison
865 2011-05-25 04:37:13 <erbs> you already need 2 weeks to adjust the difficulty
866 2011-05-25 04:37:15 <alystair> is for wattage right?
867 2011-05-25 04:37:37 <wumpus> so that relies on *all* miners organizing against bitcoin? fat chance...
868 2011-05-25 04:37:41 <ArtForz> yeah
869 2011-05-25 04:37:47 <ArtForz> even if you magically get 90% to defect, thats still enough for tx to go through in a few hours
870 2011-05-25 04:38:23 <erbs> except you still need confirms.. so 1 hour to approve a tx becomes an entire day
871 2011-05-25 04:38:36 <wumpus> and the miners would be voluntuarily giving up their share
872 2011-05-25 04:38:37 <ArtForz> so.. why isn't everyone mining on testnet yet?
873 2011-05-25 04:38:46 <wumpus> I am
874 2011-05-25 04:38:56 <wumpus> I think I'm the only one though :p
875 2011-05-25 04:39:11 <wumpus> as I get about every block
876 2011-05-25 04:39:14 <alystair> can someone here tell me what the W column is on this page is: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison#AMD
877 2011-05-25 04:40:35 <erbs> usually oligarchs collude to divide up the market.. so you'd end up with 2 new chains, each offering every odd/even bitcoin account a chance to trade in onto the new chain
878 2011-05-25 04:40:35 <stuhood> alystair: probably? the tables lower in the page use W for wattage
879 2011-05-25 04:40:44 <wumpus> it's the number of kittens sacrificed for each mhash
880 2011-05-25 04:40:58 <ArtForz> erbs: that makes no sense at all.
881 2011-05-25 04:41:01 <alystair> stuhood: 5870x2 having 1500 watt requirement seems absurd then?
882 2011-05-25 04:41:06 <alystair> :|
883 2011-05-25 04:41:15 <stuhood> *shrug
884 2011-05-25 04:42:45 <erbs> ArtForz: perhaps
885 2011-05-25 04:43:01 <erbs> anything could happen.. projects fork all the time.. and with a huge financial incentive to do so
886 2011-05-25 04:43:50 <alystair> where the hell can you even find a 5870x2 anyway :S
887 2011-05-25 04:45:40 <erbs> i dont think it will happen ArtForz
888 2011-05-25 04:45:52 <erbs> but i expect chicanery once the market is much bigger
889 2011-05-25 04:48:17 <ersi> ;;bc,stats
890 2011-05-25 04:48:19 <gribble> Current Blocks: 126539 | Current Difficulty: 244139.48158254 | Next Difficulty At Block: 127007 | Next Difficulty In: 468 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 16 hours, 41 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 412405.16439458
891 2011-05-25 04:51:16 <alystair> wow difficulty is doubling :O
892 2011-05-25 04:52:06 <retinal> ;;calc [bc,estimate]/[bc,diff]
893 2011-05-25 04:52:07 <gribble> 412,755.51940992 / 244,139.48158254 = 1.69065453
894 2011-05-25 04:52:42 <alystair> :p
895 2011-05-25 04:52:52 <alystair> ;;calc 5mbps*2
896 2011-05-25 04:52:53 <gribble> ...
897 2011-05-25 04:53:05 <alystair> ;;help
898 2011-05-25 04:53:05 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
899 2011-05-25 04:54:05 <erbs> difficultie
900 2011-05-25 04:54:37 <erbs> if AMD/ATI wanted to.. could they generate the whole chain in a day
901 2011-05-25 04:54:48 <erbs> or 126K blocks
902 2011-05-25 04:55:26 <alystair> don't tempt us
903 2011-05-25 04:55:29 <alystair> er I mean
904 2011-05-25 04:55:30 <alystair> them
905 2011-05-25 04:57:07 <erbs> in soviet union, bitkoin mines you
906 2011-05-25 04:57:44 <alystair> bitkoin :D
907 2011-05-25 05:02:18 <xino> being mined by a bitkoin would be an interesting experience
908 2011-05-25 05:04:31 <xino> how long have you all known about bitcoin and where did you first hear about it?
909 2011-05-25 05:05:44 <stuhood> 2 weeks, news.ycombinator.com
910 2011-05-25 05:06:11 <stuhood> you?
911 2011-05-25 05:06:30 <xino> Since February,  I first heard about it on a podcast called Security Now