1 2011-06-01 00:06:29 <lebish> how should params be formatted when sent via the json rpc interface?
  2 2011-06-01 00:09:53 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ping
  3 2011-06-01 00:13:38 <dizzyd> Hello all&is there a definitive protocol spec for bitcoin somewhere? Google searches have turned up links to docs that are unavailable
  4 2011-06-01 00:15:20 <johnnympereira5> does anyone know where i can get the hardware comparison guide... looks like the site is forbidden when i try to go to the site
  5 2011-06-01 00:16:17 <darbsllim> johnnympereira5 just click cached as a quick fix
  6 2011-06-01 00:16:24 <darbsllim> it'll show you a ghetto cached version
  7 2011-06-01 00:17:11 <johnnympereira5> darbsllim oooo ok
  8 2011-06-01 00:19:57 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: pong
  9 2011-06-01 00:20:07 <pwrcycle> BlueMatt: hi
 10 2011-06-01 00:21:28 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: is there an explanation of what the different sections of the pushpool shares.log are anywhere?
 11 2011-06-01 00:21:42 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ok, got my little php script running: it fills a pdns server mysql database with a list of nodes which accept incoming connections...would you be willing to use it on the dnsseed?
 12 2011-06-01 00:22:31 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: like the first 72char are the block. and the last section is consistent. so the variable part is in the middle. what are the sections called?
 13 2011-06-01 00:23:42 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: the basic requirements to be on the compiled-in list are (a) trusted community member and (b) stable hosting
 14 2011-06-01 00:23:53 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: you are clearly (a), so if you have (b), then sure
 15 2011-06-01 00:24:12 <jgarzik> pwrcycle: source code is only reference right now
 16 2011-06-01 00:24:17 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: no, no, the point of the script is to fill dnsseeds with valid nodes from the network
 17 2011-06-01 00:24:26 <BlueMatt> (I dont have a static ip node anywhere :()
 18 2011-06-01 00:24:37 <BlueMatt> I was asking if you want to run the script on your dns server
 19 2011-06-01 00:24:52 <BlueMatt> (I could run it on mine, but it would be much too slow on home-dsl)
 20 2011-06-01 00:25:31 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I don't have a DNS server...  :)  bitseed.xf2.org is on dnspark's DDoS-protected servers.
 21 2011-06-01 00:25:54 <BlueMatt> ah...shame...I suppose Ill ask around and see if anyone can spot me a vps
 22 2011-06-01 00:26:21 <dizzyd> why not just use a free amazon micro instance?
 23 2011-06-01 00:26:30 <BlueMatt> because that expires after a year?
 24 2011-06-01 00:26:31 <dizzyd> that should have plenty o power for a lookup service
 25 2011-06-01 00:27:22 <dizzyd> i have no response to your clear logic :)
 26 2011-06-01 00:27:36 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: for purposes of shares in a round, is the first 72char the exact spot i would need to check to split between all contributers?
 27 2011-06-01 00:28:08 <jgarzik> pwrcycle: I think you're terribly confused about the whole process
 28 2011-06-01 00:28:31 <jgarzik> pwrcycle: I have no idea what first 72char is, or what that means
 29 2011-06-01 00:28:42 <pwrcycle> yes, the more i learn the more questions i have
 30 2011-06-01 00:29:05 <jgarzik> pwrcycle: there is a text share log, whitespace-separated, and then an optional SQL database share log.  Each share is difficulty-1, unless you are running a full target pool.
 31 2011-06-01 00:29:31 <pwrcycle> ok, here's the question behind the question... how do you know which contributers contributed to each block?
 32 2011-06-01 00:29:47 <jgarzik> username
 33 2011-06-01 00:29:49 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: yeah, i have a perl script already to split the diff fields.
 34 2011-06-01 00:30:18 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: how do you know where one block/round ends and another begins?
 35 2011-06-01 00:31:37 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: just from my miners logs, it seems each round where they found 2or more shares starts with a 72character key to the block.
 36 2011-06-01 00:32:14 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: rather, my miners in my pushpool shares.log
 37 2011-06-01 00:34:35 <pwrcycle> also, if i point pushpool at slush's pool, would it hash correctly?
 38 2011-06-01 00:34:50 <pwrcycle> can you chain pushpools?
 39 2011-06-01 00:47:02 <BlueMatt> alright, well gnight all...if anyone wnats to hook me up with some vps...use ;;later tell
 40 2011-06-01 00:48:04 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: cheers!
 41 2011-06-01 00:57:49 <gjs278> [Tycho]: I believe your bitcoind for the site crashed
 42 2011-06-01 01:03:31 <bitcenter_> is there any functional portable bitcoin client available?
 43 2011-06-01 01:04:11 <dizzyd> bitcenter_: define portable? default client runs on osx, linux and win32
 44 2011-06-01 01:05:43 <bitcenter_> windows would be enough, I mean one that doesn't require any installation, that I could for example hold on an encrypted usb drive, together with wallet.dat all the blockchain data
 45 2011-06-01 01:06:16 <dizzyd> ah, i don't know enough on windows client to answer that
 46 2011-06-01 01:07:20 <TbbW> i carry a usb drive with some miners on it for windows wich works fine starting with a .bat file
 47 2011-06-01 01:07:36 <TbbW> also have the linux python miner :)
 48 2011-06-01 01:08:25 <jgarzik> does the python miner not work under windows?
 49 2011-06-01 01:08:35 <gjs278> it does
 50 2011-06-01 01:09:22 <Diablo-D3> it does
 51 2011-06-01 01:09:26 <Diablo-D3> but my miner works better
 52 2011-06-01 01:10:20 <dizzyd> i see some bits of the protocol that does some sort of serialization of CWalletTx
 53 2011-06-01 01:10:27 <dizzyd> are those optional bits?
 54 2011-06-01 01:10:30 <TbbW> the linux python miner works good coz there is not much modifications u need to do to get it running that's why i use it in linux
 55 2011-06-01 01:10:48 <Diablo-D3> TbbW: mine requires zero modifications.
 56 2011-06-01 01:11:12 <TbbW> Diablo-D3: not even compilation ? :)
 57 2011-06-01 01:11:14 <dizzyd> or is the serialization of CWalletTx documented (other than in the code& it's a _protocol_!)
 58 2011-06-01 01:11:27 <Diablo-D3> TbbW: ... neither python or java need compiled.
 59 2011-06-01 01:11:39 <Diablo-D3> well, not in the C sense.
 60 2011-06-01 01:11:57 <TbbW> Diablo-D3: well java is like anal sex... just coz it works everywhere does not make it pleasant :/
 61 2011-06-01 01:12:40 <Diablo-D3> download zip, unzip zip, cd into unpacked zip, ./DiabloMiner-Linux.sh -some -flags
 62 2011-06-01 01:12:43 <Diablo-D3> how hard was that.
 63 2011-06-01 01:13:08 <da2ce7> any update on when the wiki is going to back?
 64 2011-06-01 01:13:47 <jgarzik> TbbW: the python miner is really, really, really slow.  cpuminer would probably increase your income 1000x.
 65 2011-06-01 01:14:46 <TbbW> jgarzik: well i got a Amd Phenom II X4 3.6ghz and tbh cpu mining is 20 times slower ;)
 66 2011-06-01 01:15:39 <jgarzik> TbbW: Perhaps we are talking about different miners.  This is the python miner I was referring to: https://github.com/jgarzik/pyminer
 67 2011-06-01 01:15:52 <jgarzik> poclbm for GPUs is a different beast, and of course, far faster
 68 2011-06-01 01:16:27 <TbbW> jgarzik: i use poclbm :)
 69 2011-06-01 01:16:34 <jgarzik> ok good :)
 70 2011-06-01 01:28:18 <TbbW> how many mhash is usaly one "getwork" ?
 71 2011-06-01 01:41:17 <jrmithdobbs> tcatm: out of coins huh?
 72 2011-06-01 01:42:12 <ne0futur> only the main page is "out of coins"
 73 2011-06-01 01:42:20 <ne0futur> http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#kgbcmPPUSDzrg180zigHourlyzvztgMzbgEza1gSMAzm1g10za2gWMAzm2g25zi1gVolzi2gPVT
 74 2011-06-01 01:42:23 <ne0futur> works
 75 2011-06-01 01:48:11 <sshack> Is there anywhere other than bitfaucet that I could get a few bitpennies?
 76 2011-06-01 01:49:25 <Nesetalis> BTC for head? XD
 77 2011-06-01 01:49:30 <Nesetalis> sorry.
 78 2011-06-01 01:49:57 <sshack> heh. It could happen.
 79 2011-06-01 01:50:16 <sshack> hoe's are getting more up with the tech every day.
 80 2011-06-01 01:58:44 <dizzyd> i've seen a number of people note that if SHA-256 is ever cracked bitcoin could flip over to another algo
 81 2011-06-01 01:59:10 <dizzyd> but in reading the spec, the protocol has no such flexibility  i.e. a non-trivial portion of protocol would need to change as well
 82 2011-06-01 01:59:28 <dizzyd> just an observation :)
 83 2011-06-01 02:00:39 <Netsniper> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PArF9k2SbQk
 84 2011-06-01 02:26:33 <pwrcycle> i found a way to gather all shares from a successful round
 85 2011-06-01 02:27:18 <jgarzik> pwrcycle: sure, wait for upstream_result==Y
 86 2011-06-01 02:27:50 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: if i'm running a pull, i need to gather all those that contributed
 87 2011-06-01 02:28:12 <jgarzik> pwrcycle: yes.  that's all the shares prior to upstream_result==Y.
 88 2011-06-01 02:28:49 <pwrcycle> so i wrote a perl script to find Y Y and then grab the first 64char of the succeful block, then grab all contibuted shares that match on 2nd pass.
 89 2011-06-01 02:29:54 <jrmithdobbs> there's a much easier way to do that
 90 2011-06-01 02:30:11 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: jgarzik all the shares prior include previous blocks though won't they?
 91 2011-06-01 02:30:27 <jgarzik> yes
 92 2011-06-01 02:30:43 <pwrcycle> jrmithdobbs: how do you do it
 93 2011-06-01 02:31:00 <jgarzik> that's how all present pools block.  if you solve block #100 and #200, then your second round includes shares from blocks #101 - #200.
 94 2011-06-01 02:31:09 <jgarzik> *pools work
 95 2011-06-01 02:31:29 <jgarzik> round >= block
 96 2011-06-01 02:31:45 <jrmithdobbs> pwrcycle: select time from shares where upstream_result='Y' limit 2 order by time asc; then select * from shares where time > 'firsttime' and time < 'secondtime';
 97 2011-06-01 02:31:55 <pwrcycle> ah, didn't know that.
 98 2011-06-01 02:32:22 <jrmithdobbs> something like that will get the last round
 99 2011-06-01 02:32:37 <pwrcycle> jrmithdobbs: i'm not a mysql wizard, so i'm using perl :)
100 2011-06-01 02:33:03 <jrmithdobbs> doing it in the db will be 10-20x as fast as parsing the entire shares.log
101 2011-06-01 02:33:06 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: slush is doing time agin though
102 2011-06-01 02:33:24 <pwrcycle> isn't there some point where old shares aren't counted
103 2011-06-01 02:33:37 <jrmithdobbs> well that's up to you
104 2011-06-01 02:33:40 <pwrcycle> jrmithdobbs: yeah, i was counting on being able to rm old share logs though
105 2011-06-01 02:33:50 <jgarzik> slush decays the value of shares over time
106 2011-06-01 02:33:57 <jgarzik> old shares are still counted
107 2011-06-01 02:34:01 <pwrcycle> ah
108 2011-06-01 02:34:08 <Diablo-D3> you know
109 2011-06-01 02:34:08 <jrmithdobbs> pwrcycle: and you do what when people scream that you're cheating and demand proof of claimed payouts/share?
110 2011-06-01 02:34:15 <Diablo-D3> I am still snickering about the fact I made sdk 2.4 work
111 2011-06-01 02:34:25 <jrmithdobbs> snickering about what
112 2011-06-01 02:34:29 <jrmithdobbs> it didn't work?
113 2011-06-01 02:34:34 <jrmithdobbs> worked find for me
114 2011-06-01 02:34:35 <Diablo-D3> for everyone else its slower
115 2011-06-01 02:34:38 <jrmithdobbs> s/find/fine/
116 2011-06-01 02:34:43 <Diablo-D3> I made it as fast as 2.1
117 2011-06-01 02:34:44 <pwrcycle> jrmithdobbs: i was planning of publishing the logs in real time
118 2011-06-01 02:35:08 <jrmithdobbs> i never saw a difference between 2.1 and 2.4 on hardware i had
119 2011-06-01 02:35:12 <jrmithdobbs> and chocked it up to gamertards
120 2011-06-01 02:35:21 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: nope, theres a difference
121 2011-06-01 02:35:32 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: do tell
122 2011-06-01 02:35:38 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: there wasn't on the hardware/setup i ran.
123 2011-06-01 02:35:40 <Diablo-D3> you cant choose the most optimum settings
124 2011-06-01 02:35:47 <Diablo-D3> miners typically dont offer it
125 2011-06-01 02:35:48 <Diablo-D3> mine does
126 2011-06-01 02:35:54 <Diablo-D3> https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=1721.msg154804#msg154804
127 2011-06-01 02:35:56 <luke-jr> [00:31:45] <jrmithdobbs> pwrcycle: select time from shares where upstream_result='Y' limit 2 order by time asc; then select * from shares where time > 'firsttime' and time < 'secondtime';
128 2011-06-01 02:35:58 <luke-jr> I fail
129 2011-06-01 02:36:03 <luke-jr> I was using listtransactions
130 2011-06-01 02:36:04 <luke-jr> :P
131 2011-06-01 02:36:13 <jrmithdobbs> lol
132 2011-06-01 02:36:13 <pwrcycle> jrmithdobbs: i was just using perl to limit the fields to time user block
133 2011-06-01 02:36:20 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: -v in poclbm and VECTORS in phoenix is -v 2 in mine
134 2011-06-01 02:36:31 <Diablo-D3> notice -v 2 does not win on 2.4 in any reasonable setting
135 2011-06-01 02:37:46 <SerajewelKS-> since SerajewelKS quieted me, he won't have a problem with people knowing that SerajewelKS is some faggot named "Chris Howie": e-mail:  me@chrishowie.com  address: 2528 Running Stream Ct., Anderson, Indiana 46011,  tel.: 1-765-203-9543. when he was given a link showing paypal's 44 state registrations (https://www.paypal-media.com/licenses), he censored me. lol. Serajewel is a douchebag.
136 2011-06-01 02:37:47 <SerajewelKS-> haha. info posted to pastebin / reddit / front page on google by tomorrow. chris howie   https://profiles.google.com/cdhowie   http://www.linkedin.com/in/chrishowie   http://www.twitter.com/cdhowie
137 2011-06-01 02:37:50 <SerajewelKS-> chris howie quiets people who are right, and defends ppl like vragnaroda who spew copious amount of nonsense in the chan. chris howie is a tool. lol
138 2011-06-01 02:37:51 <SerajewelKS-> chris howie quiets people who are right, and defends ppl like vragnaroda who spew copious amount of nonsense in the chan. chris howie is a tool. lol. you can't win  hahahahahahah. emails to chris's works with logs of his asshattery have been sent.
139 2011-06-01 02:38:03 <luke-jr> &
140 2011-06-01 02:38:26 <SerajewelKS-> since SerajewelKS quieted me, he won't have a problem with people knowing that SerajewelKS is some faggot named "Chris Howie": e-mail:  me@chrishowie.com  address: 2528 Running Stream Ct., Anderson, Indiana 46011,  tel.: 1-765-203-9543. when he was given a link showing paypal's 44 state registrations (https://www.paypal-media.com/licenses), he censored me. lol. Serajewel is a douchebag.
141 2011-06-01 02:38:27 <SerajewelKS-> chris howie quiets people who are right, and defends ppl like vragnaroda who spew copious amount of nonsense in the chan. chris howie is a tool. lol
142 2011-06-01 02:38:27 <SerajewelKS-> haha. info posted to pastebin / reddit / front page on google by tomorrow. chris howie   https://profiles.google.com/cdhowie   http://www.linkedin.com/in/chrishowie   http://www.twitter.com/cdhowie
143 2011-06-01 02:38:28 <SerajewelKS-> haha. info posted to pastebin / reddit / front page on google by tomorrow. chris howie   https://profiles.google.com/cdhowie   http://www.linkedin.com/in/chrishowie   http://www.twitter.com/cdhowie
144 2011-06-01 02:38:36 <SerajewelKS> yay
145 2011-06-01 02:38:51 <jrmithdobbs> who'd you piss off
146 2011-06-01 02:38:58 <SerajewelKS> all my secret information available on whois.  wow.
147 2011-06-01 02:39:05 <SerajewelKS> i'm sceered
148 2011-06-01 02:39:08 <SerajewelKS-> haha. info posted to pastebin / reddit / front page on google by tomorrow. chris howie   https://profiles.google.com/cdhowie   http://www.linkedin.com/in/chrishowie   http://www.twitter.com/cdhowie
149 2011-06-01 02:39:08 <SerajewelKS-> since SerajewelKS quieted me, he won't have a problem with people knowing that SerajewelKS is some faggot named "Chris Howie": e-mail:  me@chrishowie.com  address: 2528 Running Stream Ct., Anderson, Indiana 46011,  tel.: 1-765-203-9543. when he was given a link showing paypal's 44 state registrations (https://www.paypal-media.com/licenses), he censored me. lol. Serajewel is a douchebag.
150 2011-06-01 02:39:09 <SerajewelKS-> since SerajewelKS quieted me, he won't have a problem with people knowing that SerajewelKS is some faggot named "Chris Howie": e-mail:  me@chrishowie.com  address: 2528 Running Stream Ct., Anderson, Indiana 46011,  tel.: 1-765-203-9543. when he was given a link showing paypal's 44 state registrations (https://www.paypal-media.com/licenses), he censored me. lol. Serajewel is a douchebag.
151 2011-06-01 02:39:10 <SerajewelKS-> chris howie quiets people who are right, and defends ppl like vragnaroda who spew copious amount of nonsense in the chan. chris howie is a tool. lol. you can't win  hahahahahahah. emails to chris's works with logs of his asshattery have been sent.
152 2011-06-01 02:39:26 <SerajewelKS> jrmithdobbs: some guy in #bitcoin-otc who refused to take off-topic arguments elsewhere
153 2011-06-01 02:39:44 <luke-jr> BlueMatt:
154 2011-06-01 02:39:49 <abionia> wow
155 2011-06-01 02:39:50 <jrmithdobbs> last time someone bothered to whois my irc host i got free weed
156 2011-06-01 02:39:54 <jrmithdobbs> haha
157 2011-06-01 02:40:15 <jrmithdobbs> (because they lived a block away ... that shit was surreal)
158 2011-06-01 02:40:22 <SerajewelKS> heh
159 2011-06-01 02:41:45 <gmaxwell> People are weird.
160 2011-06-01 02:41:48 <Diablo-D3> what the fuck
161 2011-06-01 02:41:53 <Diablo-D3> SerajewelKS: what the fuck are you doing
162 2011-06-01 02:42:10 <gmaxwell> &and unable to read.
163 2011-06-01 02:42:11 <SerajewelKS> Diablo-D3: me?  nothing
164 2011-06-01 02:42:28 <SerajewelKS> Diablo-D3: some troll who hates me because he got +q for being off-topic and rude?  flooding.
165 2011-06-01 02:42:37 <Diablo-D3> oh
166 2011-06-01 02:42:44 <Diablo-D3> I noticed the - =P
167 2011-06-01 02:43:41 <SerajewelKS> :)
168 2011-06-01 02:43:54 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: slush's site says: "When the pool mine a block, only users who worked on that block are rewarded, and only for work they did on that block."
169 2011-06-01 02:44:13 <pwrcycle> it doesn't read like he's counting shares from previous blocks
170 2011-06-01 02:44:18 <Diablo-D3> hes not
171 2011-06-01 02:44:19 <Diablo-D3> its prop only
172 2011-06-01 02:45:22 <jgarzik> pwrcycle: that's describing how bitcoin works
173 2011-06-01 02:45:38 <jrmithdobbs> pwrcycle: each pool has their own rules
174 2011-06-01 02:45:42 <jgarzik> pwrcycle: haven't you ever actually _mined_ before?
175 2011-06-01 02:45:49 <jrmithdobbs> pwrcycle: slush isn't even using pushpool afaik
176 2011-06-01 02:46:02 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: I know of no pool that only rewards for the currently solved block, and ignores shares from prior clocks
177 2011-06-01 02:46:03 <Diablo-D3> slush is using slushpool
178 2011-06-01 02:46:04 <jgarzik> *blocks
179 2011-06-01 02:46:26 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: i've mined, but only ever got paid via slush's pool.
180 2011-06-01 02:46:55 <jgarzik> As I stated,
181 2011-06-01 02:46:58 <jgarzik> round >= block
182 2011-06-01 02:47:29 <jgarzik> of course, it's a free market, you are welcome to run your pool however you wish.
183 2011-06-01 02:47:39 <jgarzik> that's the point of releasing the software :)
184 2011-06-01 02:48:25 <gmaxwell> I don't know why "no prior blocks" would make any sense at all. Every failed hash attempt is a failed hash attempt and a full restart of your expectation.
185 2011-06-01 02:48:48 <gmaxwell> There isn't any reason to restart at "new blocks" vs restart after 1 hour.
186 2011-06-01 02:49:52 <pwrcycle> gmaxwell: if you find >1 block/hour and your split is based on an hour, you'd have double payout on shares from the first found block.
187 2011-06-01 02:50:32 <gmaxwell> pwrcycle: if everyone was doubled it wouldn't matter much.
188 2011-06-01 02:50:48 <gmaxwell> Thats not really the point I was trying to make in any case.
189 2011-06-01 02:50:52 <pwrcycle> gmaxwell: it would matter to a miner who wasn't connected for the 1st 1/2 hour.
190 2011-06-01 02:51:06 <gmaxwell> The transition from one block to another is no more throwing out work than from one hash to another.
191 2011-06-01 02:51:23 <gmaxwell> You should like you're one of these mistaken people who think that mining is a race.
192 2011-06-01 02:52:40 <birtig> lol quieting me was highly suboptimal for SerajewelKS. <stoneton> oh rite.. to do biz in the US theres license for each state  <stoneton> most states have similar licenses <---- [44 state licenses here https://www.paypal-media.com/licenses and NY just ruled that internet payment companies nust now register [they werent required to before in NY] bringing it to 45. Furthermore, each state
193 2011-06-01 02:52:41 <birtig> has a separate currency exchange license which would be required for an exchange.]
194 2011-06-01 02:52:41 <birtig> <vragnaroda> stoneton: no, there isn't when business conducted is interst ate or international. < vragnaroda> stoneton: no, paypal's money transmittal license is held by a subsidiary in nebraska, where it's cheaper and the license less expensive. <----- lol so much bullshit spewed by one clueless gimp.  vragnaroda spews complete nonsense and SerajewelKS defends his nonsense. lol. SerajewelKS
195 2011-06-01 02:52:42 <birtig> since SerajewelKS quieted me, he won't have a problem with people knowing that SerajewelKS is some faggot named "Chris Howie": e-mail:  me@chrishowie.com  address: 2528 Running Stream Ct., Anderson, Indiana 46011,  tel.: 1-765-203-9543. when he was given a link showing paypal's 44 state registrations (https://www.paypal-media.com/licenses), he censored me. lol. Serajewel is a douchebag.
196 2011-06-01 02:52:43 <birtig> chris howie quiets people who are right, and defends ppl like vragnaroda who spew copious amount of nonsense in the chan. chris howie is a tool. lol. you can't win  hahahahahahah. emails to chris's works with logs of his asshattery have been sent.
197 2011-06-01 02:52:47 <gmaxwell> pwrcycle: "it would matter to a miner who wasn't connected for" so would restarting when a new block is found elsewhere on the network.. say you work 8 hours without finding a solution, then get disconnected.. an hour later the pool finds a solution. ... and you make nothing, because several network blocks had crossed inthat time.
198 2011-06-01 02:52:57 <gmaxwell> wow. how did freenode's ratelimiting allow that?
199 2011-06-01 02:53:18 <birtig> has a separate currency exchange license which would be required for an exchange.]
200 2011-06-01 02:53:18 <birtig> lol quieting me was highly suboptimal for SerajewelKS. <stoneton> oh rite.. to do biz in the US theres license for each state  <stoneton> most states have similar licenses <---- [44 state licenses here https://www.paypal-media.com/licenses and NY just ruled that internet payment companies nust now register [they werent required to before in NY] bringing it to 45. Furthermore, each state
201 2011-06-01 02:53:19 <birtig> chris howie quiets people who are right, and defends ppl like vragnaroda who spew copious amount of nonsense in the chan. chris howie is a tool. lol. you can't win  hahahahahahah. emails to chris's works with logs of his asshattery have been sent.
202 2011-06-01 02:53:20 <birtig> haha. info posted to pastebin / reddit / front page on google by tomorrow. chris howie   https://profiles.google.com/cdhowie   http://www.linkedin.com/in/chrishowie   http://www.twitter.com/cdhowie
203 2011-06-01 02:53:53 <gmaxwell> I've /ignored "birtig" but er.. someone might actually want to ban that ip...
204 2011-06-01 02:54:04 <pwrcycle> i think it's /ignore c-67-182-75-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net
205 2011-06-01 02:54:16 <jgarzik> I just op'd SerajewelKS
206 2011-06-01 02:55:13 <gmaxwell> pwrcycle: in any case, working on new work that has a different extranonce or a different timestamp is no different that working on the next step in the bitcoin chain.
207 2011-06-01 02:55:36 <gmaxwell> There isn't any progress which is lost when the network moves on to a new block.
208 2011-06-01 02:55:44 <jgarzik> [meta] what is the IRC ban command?
209 2011-06-01 02:55:51 <gmaxwell> So there isn't any reason to fail to pay miners for hours of work
210 2011-06-01 02:55:51 <jgarzik> I hate being an op
211 2011-06-01 02:55:59 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: most clients have an automatic /ban
212 2011-06-01 02:55:59 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: /ban $nick
213 2011-06-01 02:56:10 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: /kick $nick
214 2011-06-01 02:56:15 <pwrcycle> ban them first
215 2011-06-01 02:56:23 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: otherwise it's a channel mode change +b user@host
216 2011-06-01 02:56:23 <jgarzik> not effective, he switches nicks
217 2011-06-01 02:56:45 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: also /ban c-67-182-75-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net
218 2011-06-01 02:58:11 <gmaxwell> yup
219 2011-06-01 02:59:12 <SerajewelKS> jgarzik: thanks.  was busy in -otc :)
220 2011-06-01 02:59:38 <SerajewelKS> he's spamming at least three channels that i can see, probably more
221 2011-06-01 02:59:44 <jgarzik> SerajewelKS: standard op lecture.  don't abuse it, or we're glare at you with a Beam of Glaring +2
222 2011-06-01 02:59:54 <pwrcycle> gmaxwell: i think i see what you're saying, but i'm not sure i agree.
223 2011-06-01 03:00:36 <SerajewelKS> jgarzik: of course
224 2011-06-01 03:00:41 <pwrcycle> what's the difference in a share and a completed block?
225 2011-06-01 03:00:55 <pwrcycle> is a share that's not the answer used anywhere?
226 2011-06-01 03:00:59 <SerajewelKS> a share is just proof that you're actually working
227 2011-06-01 03:01:09 <jgarzik> pwrcycle: correct
228 2011-06-01 03:01:18 <gmaxwell> pwrcycle: a share is a low value, but not low enough to be a full difficulty solution.
229 2011-06-01 03:01:22 <jgarzik> pwrcycle: a share is useless, 99.9999% of the time
230 2011-06-01 03:01:29 <jgarzik> pwrcycle: sometimes, you get lucky.  that's a block.
231 2011-06-01 03:01:39 <gmaxwell> well right, its a superset.
232 2011-06-01 03:01:57 <gmaxwell> Shares would all be blocks if the network difficulty were ~=1. :)
233 2011-06-01 03:02:17 <SerajewelKS> i gotta get some sleep.  if one of you with ops in -otc and/or -pit could keep an eye on them, i'd appreciate it.
234 2011-06-01 03:02:28 <lfm> so if your shares are at difficulty 1.0 and the net is at difficulty 434882 then one share out of 434882 is a block
235 2011-06-01 03:02:29 <SerajewelKS> i could care less about my info, but a 3-page flood is a bit disruptive
236 2011-06-01 03:04:29 <pwrcycle> i'm still incinded to only pay contributers of the current block.
237 2011-06-01 03:04:41 <gmaxwell> 'contributors'
238 2011-06-01 03:04:42 <lfm> so a share is theoreticlly worth about ...
239 2011-06-01 03:04:47 <gmaxwell> What are they contributing?
240 2011-06-01 03:04:51 <pwrcycle> i can appreciate someone mining for 8 hours then getting disconnected before finding a paying block.
241 2011-06-01 03:04:56 <lfm> ;;bc,cacl 50/434882
242 2011-06-01 03:04:57 <gribble> Error: "bc,cacl" is not a valid command.
243 2011-06-01 03:05:01 <pwrcycle> but a block is worth 50btc. a share isn't worth anything.
244 2011-06-01 03:05:02 <lfm> ;;bc,calc 50/434882
245 2011-06-01 03:05:03 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 50/434882 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 515141852 years, 29 weeks, 5 days, 8 hours, 10 minutes, and 20 seconds
246 2011-06-01 03:05:10 <lfm> ;;calc 50/434882
247 2011-06-01 03:05:11 <gribble> 50 / 434???882 = 0.000114973717
248 2011-06-01 03:05:16 <gmaxwell> pwrcycle: so they worked for you all day, and you paid them nothing?
249 2011-06-01 03:05:18 <lfm> there
250 2011-06-01 03:05:25 <jgarzik> pretty much
251 2011-06-01 03:05:30 <pwrcycle> gmaxwell: that seems to be what slush is doing
252 2011-06-01 03:05:35 <jgarzik> pwrcycle: wrong
253 2011-06-01 03:05:39 <gmaxwell> No, thats not what slush does.
254 2011-06-01 03:05:53 <pwrcycle> gmaxwell: i always though of it more like roulette
255 2011-06-01 03:06:01 <gmaxwell> when the pool finds a block it pays for all the work done since the last block found.
256 2011-06-01 03:06:13 <gmaxwell> pwrcycle: if people want roulette there is no reason to use a pool at all.
257 2011-06-01 03:06:24 <jgarzik> last block the -pool- found, not the last block the -network- found, to be specific.
258 2011-06-01 03:06:45 <jgarzik> pools mean consistent, constant payment
259 2011-06-01 03:06:46 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: er, dur, I normally wouldn't have to clarify that. Obviously important here. :)
260 2011-06-01 03:06:47 <lfm> gmaxwell: thats what I always say, go solo!
261 2011-06-01 03:06:55 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: :)
262 2011-06-01 03:07:22 <lfm> jgarzik: when they are working right
263 2011-06-01 03:07:28 <gmaxwell> pwrcycle: following your logic only the person who found the block should get paid.
264 2011-06-01 03:07:42 <gmaxwell> And then there is absolutely no reason to be in a pool.
265 2011-06-01 03:07:53 <gmaxwell> Because the only thing a pool is there to do is to even out everyone's luck.
266 2011-06-01 03:08:11 <lfm> gmaxwell: well there are reasons but they are psycological illusions
267 2011-06-01 03:08:18 <gmaxwell> It's not a race, there is no increase in your long term expected payoff from being in a pool.
268 2011-06-01 03:08:32 <gmaxwell> lfm: reducing variance is a legit goal.
269 2011-06-01 03:08:41 <gmaxwell> lfm: confidence of income has value.
270 2011-06-01 03:08:50 <pwrcycle> gmaxwell: i see the variance in that too. if the first share was the answer, only 1 gets paid, which is bad.
271 2011-06-01 03:09:00 <lfm> gmaxwell: yup illusions
272 2011-06-01 03:09:48 <gmaxwell> lfm: well, I don't think it's an illusion, if I got broke waiting for my ship to come in and have to shut down, I'm not happy. (though perhaps not actually a issue for anyone)
273 2011-06-01 03:09:53 <gmaxwell> s/got/go/
274 2011-06-01 03:10:01 <lfm> I think a pool should pay on a set schedule like once a day and split the winnings by share like every day at midnight
275 2011-06-01 03:10:29 <lfm> but I still wouldnt join it
276 2011-06-01 03:11:00 <jgarzik> solo mining w/ 12+ Ghps + bad luck has meant income far, far below what is 'expected'.  A pool would have been materially, provably more lucrative.
277 2011-06-01 03:11:11 <gmaxwell> lfm: still enables hopping. If a pool had a really unlucky morning you stop contributing shares in the afternoon because the marginal return is less than someplace that wasn't unlucky in the morning.
278 2011-06-01 03:11:23 <pwrcycle> lfm: how can you account for people that mined 1 hr vs 24 hours? GETs are easy to forge, so only shares would show work.
279 2011-06-01 03:11:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik' in the parallel universe who solved 10 blocks in an hour would disagree. :)  Though I'm not trying to advocate solo mining.
280 2011-06-01 03:11:51 <lfm> gmaxwell: dont tell people how many winners there are till you pay out
281 2011-06-01 03:11:56 <gmaxwell> Just making sure everyone is clear that there isn't some enormous average gain.
282 2011-06-01 03:12:44 <pwrcycle> for a shares since last block found, you should mine in a pool that just found a block, because there are now fewer shares?
283 2011-06-01 03:12:52 <gmaxwell> lfm: might be hard to hide the pools blocks in practice.
284 2011-06-01 03:13:18 <gmaxwell> lfm: but fair enough.
285 2011-06-01 03:13:29 <gmaxwell> lfm: though no one would like it.
286 2011-06-01 03:13:33 <lfm> gmaxwell: not hard, every miner mines on a different coinbase address
287 2011-06-01 03:14:13 <gmaxwell> lfm: when the pool finds the block the LP will come much sooner than the new block from some random probes you have on the network.
288 2011-06-01 03:14:18 <lfm> gmaxwell: ya, no one likes fair
289 2011-06-01 03:14:25 <Blitzboom> jgarzik: thats the fault of those maniacs who keep buying
290 2011-06-01 03:14:51 <Blitzboom> falkvinge style
291 2011-06-01 03:14:54 <gmaxwell> lfm: well not just that, it isn't instant gratification. People like seeing their balances going up.
292 2011-06-01 03:15:01 <lfm> gmaxwell: hmm, ya lp would be a clue, guess we just use getwork then
293 2011-06-01 03:15:11 <jgarzik> regardless, pool benefits are not 'illusions' :)
294 2011-06-01 03:15:28 <lfm> gmaxwell: they want regularity, every day at midnight would be regular
295 2011-06-01 03:15:35 <gmaxwell> I agree that they're not illusions.
296 2011-06-01 03:15:57 <Blitzboom> how come deepbit is STILL so big after ddos?
297 2011-06-01 03:15:59 <lfm> gmaxwell: just the amounts might change
298 2011-06-01 03:16:05 <gmaxwell> I don't know that they even want regularity for the most part. I think a lot of the interest in pools is because they see _progress_
299 2011-06-01 03:16:37 <Guest21516> acer rules
300 2011-06-01 03:16:53 <gmaxwell> There are also a non-trivial number of people who appear to think its a race and the biggest the pool the more they will earn.
301 2011-06-01 03:17:07 <lfm> well pridictable payout would cure several problems with people watching the pot boil so to speak
302 2011-06-01 03:17:16 <gmaxwell> Blitzboom: they went temporary zero-fees after the big ddos this weekend in order to rebuild size.
303 2011-06-01 03:17:27 <Blitzboom> lol
304 2011-06-01 03:17:45 <Blitzboom> he really wants 50% of the hashrate
305 2011-06-01 03:18:07 <lfm> thats reason enuf to stay away from him
306 2011-06-01 03:18:31 <Blitzboom> the free market fails
307 2011-06-01 03:20:24 <lfm> the only reasons anyone would wanna control 50% of the mining are bad. when he gets it it could be bad for everyone including his miners
308 2011-06-01 03:20:54 <gmaxwell> Obviously many miners are indifferent or are too ignorant to care.
309 2011-06-01 03:20:58 <Blitzboom> i argue that most miners dont even care
310 2011-06-01 03:21:05 <Blitzboom> as long as they see the dollars rolling in
311 2011-06-01 03:21:14 <lfm> they dont care what their btc will be worth?
312 2011-06-01 03:21:18 <Blitzboom> bitcoin is nothing more than a money machine to most of them
313 2011-06-01 03:21:24 <gmaxwell> They're staying around even with the highest fees, and not great uptime.
314 2011-06-01 03:21:33 <Blitzboom> lfm: well, they probably dont understand the consequences
315 2011-06-01 03:21:47 <jgarzik> IMO with the latest rush of miners, it's just free money and they don't really care about the system
316 2011-06-01 03:21:53 <gmaxwell> And they have some mistaken belief that bigger pools give them a better odds at wining the race.
317 2011-06-01 03:22:08 <Blitzboom> agreed. were having lots of miners who dont give a shit about bitcoin
318 2011-06-01 03:22:30 <Blitzboom> parasite hashrate
319 2011-06-01 03:22:35 <gmaxwell> amusingly it seems a lot of these people also mine PPS.
320 2011-06-01 03:22:39 <lfm> oh well when the bubble bursts they will mostly go away
321 2011-06-01 03:23:02 <Blitzboom> lfm: honestly, im not sure if this will burst or will get even bigger
322 2011-06-01 03:23:35 <lfm> yes of course it will probably get bigger for a while before it bursts. that is always true untill it isnt
323 2011-06-01 03:23:41 <jgarzik> another part of the pool problem is that deepbit seems to wind up with far more stability than other pools.  other pools are either very new, or unstable.
324 2011-06-01 03:23:45 <gmaxwell> Perhaps we should just pick a random small pool and start calling it the biggest everywhere.
325 2011-06-01 03:23:50 <jgarzik> btcmine seems excluded from both those
326 2011-06-01 03:23:55 <gmaxwell> All the clueless people will just move over to it then. :)
327 2011-06-01 03:24:17 <Blitzboom> i think its cause of this signature banners
328 2011-06-01 03:25:28 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm now monitoring four pools (though just from my location) and deepbit is the only pool that has taken considerable downtime (>5m) in the last week that I've been monitoring.
329 2011-06-01 03:25:42 <gmaxwell> It would probably be interesting to be a bit more systematic about it and post stats.
330 2011-06-01 03:25:53 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: my time scale is a bit wider :)
331 2011-06-01 03:25:59 <lfm> gmaxwell: oh, you could send new lp blocks for every txn update then the new blocks wouldnt be so obvious
332 2011-06-01 03:26:17 <gmaxwell> lfm: oh good call.
333 2011-06-01 03:26:40 <sshack> gmaxwell: pps?
334 2011-06-01 03:26:45 <gmaxwell> lfm: this might enable pretty unbounded theft by the pool operator though.
335 2011-06-01 03:27:09 <gmaxwell> sshack: pay per share. Which is perfectly fine thing, but all current operators charge a heavy overhead for it.
336 2011-06-01 03:27:10 <lfm> gmaxwell: you kinda have to trust pool operators anyway really
337 2011-06-01 03:27:22 <Blitzboom> we should have deepbit ddosed again
338 2011-06-01 03:27:42 <sshack> ahh.
339 2011-06-01 03:27:44 <gmaxwell> lfm: it increases it though. esp e.g. vs eligius where the operator never even sits on the users funds.
340 2011-06-01 03:27:55 <lfm> naw, dont stoop to that level
341 2011-06-01 03:28:05 <gmaxwell> Yea, and don't talk about it here.
342 2011-06-01 03:28:14 <gmaxwell> I don't want to be around that discussion.
343 2011-06-01 03:28:21 <Blitzboom> lfm: its the only measure that seems to work :P
344 2011-06-01 03:28:48 <gmaxwell> Besides, gentlemen don't DDOS they set up prediction markets that pay off to people who can predict 'downtime'. ;)
345 2011-06-01 03:28:49 <sshack> So how big is the internets economy?
346 2011-06-01 03:28:50 <Blitzboom> but deepbit seems too big to fail" already
347 2011-06-01 03:29:04 <wumpus> hehe gmaxwell
348 2011-06-01 03:29:28 <lfm> sshack: I doubt it could be measured accuratly
349 2011-06-01 03:29:37 <Blitzboom> do we have functioning prediction markets already?
350 2011-06-01 03:29:41 <sshack> Just doing random numbers. I think I read something like 21billion. and if bitcoins gets 0.02% of that, (and has issued all 21M coins), that puts the coins at $2USD
351 2011-06-01 03:29:47 <sshack> lfm: Ballpark is good enough.
352 2011-06-01 03:29:59 <gmaxwell> 21 billion? dunno about that ... I think porn alone is a bigger industry.
353 2011-06-01 03:30:24 <sshack> gmaxwell: Alright, double it, double the value. Assuming you can get 0.02% of the market.
354 2011-06-01 03:30:27 <lfm> sshack: well I wouldnt trust that esimate withing 3 orders of magnitude
355 2011-06-01 03:30:45 <sshack> lfm: It's just back of the envelope stuff.
356 2011-06-01 03:30:52 <lfm> yup
357 2011-06-01 03:31:07 <sshack> It's not really the number you care about, but the direction.
358 2011-06-01 03:31:37 <lfm> well I guess the direction is kinda obvious
359 2011-06-01 03:32:05 <lfm> kinda like north east
360 2011-06-01 03:32:07 <sshack> Are there more retailers accepting btc?
361 2011-06-01 03:32:21 <sshack> That is the number that would seem to matter.
362 2011-06-01 03:32:33 <lfm> yes more
363 2011-06-01 03:32:33 <sshack> Speaking of, who runs bitcoin.org? The wiki is broken.
364 2011-06-01 03:32:34 <gmaxwell> Blitzboom: not really, but I think that GLBSE will basically take any kind of contract.
365 2011-06-01 03:32:54 <sshack> oh it's back.
366 2011-06-01 03:32:56 <sshack> Nevermind
367 2011-06-01 03:38:44 <pwrcycle> jgarzik: how do you verify shares submitted?
368 2011-06-01 03:49:01 <gmaxwell> lfm: if you haven't seen luke-jr's maxpps it gets the fair behavior easier than what you were suggesting.. and without complicated weighing or anything.
369 2011-06-01 03:49:14 <starkis> http://pastebin.com/aHfmiDdZ  William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a troll who spends his time trying desperately to censor discussions on the freenode irc network (in violation of freenode policy). here are the cunt's dox:
370 2011-06-01 03:49:15 <starkis> waisse's info will be recorded here.  all this troll can prattle on about is why he wants ppl to stop discussing topics he dislikes lol:
371 2011-06-01 03:49:16 <starkis> [02:08] <ne0futur> oneman: i recommend not mining ;)  [02:08] <ne0futur> and talking of mining on #bitcoin-mining :p  [02:10] <ne0futur> i dont even know what is Sandy bridge  ;)  [02:10] <ne0futur> i dunno  [02:10] <ne0futur> but the topic of the channel is only spaking of trading http://pastebin.com/aHfmiDdZ
372 2011-06-01 03:50:04 <gmaxwell> /ignore *!*@24-183-192-140.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com
373 2011-06-01 03:50:56 <gmaxwell> lfm: the idea of it is to simply compute the fair PPS, and cap your payouts at that... then buffer pay over the cap to buffer you when you're under the cap.
374 2011-06-01 03:51:17 <gmaxwell> lfm: so it's effectively a PPS scheme  but you're bankrolling it.
375 2011-06-01 03:51:28 <gmaxwell> (so no risk to the operator)
376 2011-06-01 03:52:31 <gmaxwell> lfm: and it should be completely immune to all forms of stupidity. Including the "I filtered out found blocks just to screw the operator" heightend risk for PPS operations.
377 2011-06-01 03:53:22 <hohoholol> http://pastebin.com/aHfmiDdZ  William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a troll who spends his time trying desperately to censor discussions on the freenode irc network (in violation of freenode policy). here are the cunt's dox:
378 2011-06-01 03:53:47 <hohoholol> http://pastebin.com/aHfmiDdZ  William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a troll who spends his time trying desperately to censor discussions on the freenode irc network (in violation of freenode policy). here are the cunt's dox:
379 2011-06-01 03:53:48 <hohoholol> name: william waisse  address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France  tel: +33.681967610  emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be, bc@ww7.be, neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org  http://www.viadeo.com/fr/profile/william.waisse
380 2011-06-01 04:16:09 <devrandom1> /ignore *!*@24-183-192-140.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com
381 2011-06-01 04:19:00 <lfm> gmaxwell: what defence is there for  the "I filtered out found blocks just to screw the
382 2011-06-01 04:19:01 <lfm> operator"
383 2011-06-01 04:33:19 <iz> lfm: it's not a constant keyspace
384 2011-06-01 04:54:09 <diki> so every possible nonce is tried for finding a block starting from 1?
385 2011-06-01 04:55:11 <diki> is it possible to start from say 30k?
386 2011-06-01 04:58:27 <phantomcircuit> diki, sure you can start from whatever you want
387 2011-06-01 04:59:21 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, you there?
388 2011-06-01 06:00:38 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Have any environmentalist or celebrities come out against bitcoins for wasting electricity and emitting CO2?
389 2011-06-01 06:01:19 <Xtians_R_Terrist> "It's not a waste. It's a price for having decentralized cryptocurrency. Also, I don't get why a huge carbon dioxide footprint would be bad. Plants require carbon dioxide to conduct photosynthesis. More CO2 - more plants growth. Are you against nature?"
390 2011-06-01 06:01:21 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Hahaha.
391 2011-06-01 06:02:54 <Xtians_R_Terrist> 2000 Gigahash/s for a day ~48000kW
392 2011-06-01 06:04:24 <Xtians_R_Terrist> If 160 Watts will (on average) generate one bitcoin each 24 hours
393 2011-06-01 06:04:42 <Xtians_R_Terrist> How completely stupid and irresponsible.
394 2011-06-01 06:05:05 <Xtians_R_Terrist> As if you crackers don't already have too much money and waste too much energy.
395 2011-06-01 06:06:45 <ne0futur> Xtians_R_Terrist: compare it to http://gw.gd/backed_or_not and the ecological cost of paper for money
396 2011-06-01 06:07:24 <Xtians_R_Terrist> It is asinine to make something scarce by purposefully wasting resources.
397 2011-06-01 06:07:36 <Xtians_R_Terrist> There are other ways to make things scarce.
398 2011-06-01 06:07:46 <gjs278> turn off your AC and you can help offset some of our power usage
399 2011-06-01 06:08:06 <Xtians_R_Terrist> I live in Wyoming and it is about 30F.
400 2011-06-01 06:08:26 <Xtians_R_Terrist> How about you turn off your AC since you insist on making money by doing nothing?
401 2011-06-01 06:08:42 <gjs278> it's not 30F during the day
402 2011-06-01 06:08:48 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Kinda like welfare eh?
403 2011-06-01 06:08:57 <Xtians_R_Terrist> I am at work during the day and it's still not hot enough to run AC.
404 2011-06-01 06:09:30 <gjs278> turn off your monitor while you're typing
405 2011-06-01 06:09:40 <gjs278> and only turn it back on every so often to see my response
406 2011-06-01 06:09:42 <gjs278> I'll do the same
407 2011-06-01 06:09:56 <gjs278> together we can save the planet
408 2011-06-01 06:10:12 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Typing stupid things is a waste of your time and energy.
409 2011-06-01 06:10:12 <z310> gjs278: let the troll be
410 2011-06-01 06:10:35 <gjs278> I don't have limited energy
411 2011-06-01 06:10:44 <gjs278> I can just go eat something
412 2011-06-01 06:10:48 <gjs278> and I will gain that energy back
413 2011-06-01 06:11:15 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Did you read what I wrote about stupid things?
414 2011-06-01 06:11:19 <Xtians_R_Terrist> That was the important part.
415 2011-06-01 06:12:51 <z310> <Xtians_R_Terrist> Typing stupid things is a waste of your time and energy.
416 2011-06-01 06:12:58 <z310> What is your intention of being here, Xtians_R_Terrist?
417 2011-06-01 06:13:45 <gjs278> Xtians_R_Terrist is making me realize the error of my ways
418 2011-06-01 06:13:47 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Save the environment.
419 2011-06-01 06:14:17 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Does the power company accept bitcoins?
420 2011-06-01 06:15:02 <z310> Do you really expect make any impact here, Xtians_R_Terrist?
421 2011-06-01 06:15:47 <gjs278> this project is just a front for comed
422 2011-06-01 06:15:52 <gjs278> he's unraveled the lies
423 2011-06-01 06:16:02 <gjs278> it's all going to come crashing downn ow
424 2011-06-01 06:16:08 <Xtians_R_Terrist> The current method of coin minting is similar to a currency based on photographs of burned wheat. People grow wheat, burn it, and take photos of the burned wheat to prove that it was really grown and burnt, and then use the photographs as a medium of exchange.
425 2011-06-01 06:16:13 <ersi> Oh shit, I didn't realise!
426 2011-06-01 06:16:44 <midnightmagic> Argh! Photoshoppers are suddenly rich!
427 2011-06-01 06:17:09 <gjs278> personally I eat my wheat and then use the picture as currency
428 2011-06-01 06:17:20 <midnightmagic> Are you smiling in it?
429 2011-06-01 06:17:42 <gjs278> that would devalue it
430 2011-06-01 06:18:41 <z310> Xtians_R_Terrist: energy companies burn the wheat. we're making it useful.
431 2011-06-01 06:18:42 <midnightmagic> surely not. you're a photoshopper! you could just use the pinch and warp tools to make yourself look like nick nolte.
432 2011-06-01 06:19:33 <Xtians_R_Terrist> I understand that the incredibly thermodynamic inefficiency I was complaining about is in fact very deliberate, and bitcoin might be said to waste as much energy as possible, as a security feature!
433 2011-06-01 06:19:57 <midnightmagic> Or..  dun dun DUNNNN  as *little* as possible! how's that for mind-bending?
434 2011-06-01 06:20:20 <midnightmagic> You couldn't get more bent if you popped a half dozen tabs of LSD!
435 2011-06-01 06:21:03 <midnightmagic> After buying them with ?!
436 2011-06-01 06:21:13 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Now it's about competing botnets providing a secure and reliable foundation for an open currency. Yeah, they're stealing the electricity and yeah, they're profiting
437 2011-06-01 06:21:34 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Oh, I've taken way more than 6 hits of LSD.
438 2011-06-01 06:21:39 <midnightmagic> What's a botnet?
439 2011-06-01 06:21:54 <midnightmagic> And, HAH! Fooled ya! I meant a *baker's* dozen.
440 2011-06-01 06:22:41 <intelliot> how does the difficulty readjustment work? i guess it must be something the clients do. what if there is disagreement about what the new difficulty should be?
441 2011-06-01 06:22:57 <midnightmagic> intelliot: it's deterministic.
442 2011-06-01 06:23:05 <intelliot> does the miner who successfully creates the 2,016th block set the new difficulty?
443 2011-06-01 06:23:10 <midnightmagic> no.
444 2011-06-01 06:23:29 <midnightmagic> everyone does it all at once.
445 2011-06-01 06:24:27 <intelliot> how does bitcoin prevent some rogue, maliciously-modified miners from changing the difficulty calculation formula?
446 2011-06-01 06:24:51 <theorbtwo> Xtians_R_Terrist: The thing is, you are, in a way, right.  If there was a better way of doing it, we'd be doing it that way, but there isn't.
447 2011-06-01 06:25:20 <Phoebus> intelliot, no.
448 2011-06-01 06:25:26 <midnightmagic> theorbtwo: also, we are in a race towards the most efficient use of power for the task at hand, too. also, why are you feeding the troll? :)
449 2011-06-01 06:25:56 <theorbtwo> intelliot: Because the non-rogue users would refuse to accept those blocks.
450 2011-06-01 06:25:58 <midnightmagic> intelliot: sure, he could do that. and then if he ever managed to mine a block, everyone else would just ignore him.
451 2011-06-01 06:26:06 <theorbtwo> ...and thus the coins would be un-spendable.
452 2011-06-01 06:26:15 <intelmeth> hey guys can i copy blk0001.dat from one computer to another to save time catching up on the block chain?
453 2011-06-01 06:26:16 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Don't do it at all.  You have too much money already.
454 2011-06-01 06:26:27 <midnightmagic> "lol you minez a block for lower difficulty, you fail our proof-of-work test. block denied!"
455 2011-06-01 06:27:29 <theorbtwo> midnightmagic: I'm feeding the troll because doing so encourages other people to have an intelegent conversation, rather then making false statements in order to counter the statements of the troll.
456 2011-06-01 06:28:05 <midnightmagic> theorbtwo: I'm not making false statements. A baker's dozen really doesn't have 12 in it..
457 2011-06-01 06:28:26 <theorbtwo> midnightmagic: Indeed.  A baker's dozen is 13.
458 2011-06-01 06:28:34 <midnightmagic> theorbtwo: or 14, depending on your source.
459 2011-06-01 06:28:50 <intelliot> silly bakers
460 2011-06-01 06:28:56 <intelliot> thanks for the info y'all
461 2011-06-01 06:29:06 <Xtians_R_Terrist> USA 40% of world's resources, 5% of its people, now you want to get rich doing nothing by burning coal, emitting particulate, SOx, CO, O3, NOx, neurotoxic Hg, radioactive elements, strip mining, fly ash disposal, destruction of virgin forest, etc. etc. etc.  30,000 deaths attributed to air pollution from coal annually.  How many bitcoins is a life worth?
462 2011-06-01 06:29:23 <midnightmagic> Well there's definitely something being emitted..
463 2011-06-01 06:29:25 <Xtians_R_Terrist> How many coal miners died this year so you could sit on your ass?
464 2011-06-01 06:29:58 <midnightmagic> And I would also point out that 50-yr-old hydroelectric dams barely emit that crap at all. so there.
465 2011-06-01 06:30:34 <midnightmagic> And the Japanese are using clean nuclear power.
466 2011-06-01 06:30:41 <Xtians_R_Terrist> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/30/us-coal-mine-deaths-in-20_n_802790.html
467 2011-06-01 06:31:00 <Xtians_R_Terrist> If you waste renewable power on bittcoins you make up the difference with non-renewable power.
468 2011-06-01 06:31:23 <Xtians_R_Terrist> And hydroelectric dams emit huge amounts of CH4 due to decomposing vegetation which decays in anaerobic conditions.
469 2011-06-01 06:31:41 <midnightmagic> Wait, wait.. lemme think about that a second. My brain is hurting. I.. make up.. the difference.. between.. what I'm doing and.. something nebulous.. with.. non-renewable "power"?
470 2011-06-01 06:31:41 <RAM2012> Xtian how you feel about nuclear?
471 2011-06-01 06:31:45 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Cement used to build dams is also a huge source of CO2.
472 2011-06-01 06:31:56 <Xtians_R_Terrist> We have 100 year reserve of uranium at current utilization.
473 2011-06-01 06:32:00 <midnightmagic> Actually 50-yr-old ones don't! Nyah nyah
474 2011-06-01 06:32:22 <RAM2012> coal and oil are bad, nuclear solar and wind are better
475 2011-06-01 06:32:42 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Yes.  Invest in wind and solar, not bitcoins.
476 2011-06-01 06:32:43 <midnightmagic> too bad solar don't work so well above the equator..
477 2011-06-01 06:32:44 <RAM2012> but its an energy industry issue, not a technology issue
478 2011-06-01 06:32:55 <iera_> Xtians_R_Terrist: i agree with your statements, but compare us bitcoiners with all the banking-related computers on the world
479 2011-06-01 06:33:11 <Xtians_R_Terrist> You are rationalizing your waste by saying it doesn't matter because others waste.
480 2011-06-01 06:33:18 <Xtians_R_Terrist> They can now say the same thing about you.
481 2011-06-01 06:33:27 <RAM2012> all living things creatre waste in order to live xtian
482 2011-06-01 06:33:32 <midnightmagic> I demand you say the same thing about us!
483 2011-06-01 06:33:41 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Right and we're all going to die so we should just nuke the whole fucking thing.
484 2011-06-01 06:33:43 <midnightmagic> Bitcoin! Is alive!
485 2011-06-01 06:34:17 <midnightmagic> Hey, I happen to like living out on my rock. Go nuke someone else.
486 2011-06-01 06:34:37 <RAM2012> so now you've gone from clean energy advocate to holocaust advocate
487 2011-06-01 06:34:53 <RAM2012> logic does amazing things, eh?
488 2011-06-01 06:34:55 <midnightmagic> Yeah, brutal. Next he'll be calling us anti-nazi.
489 2011-06-01 06:35:02 <Xtians_R_Terrist> I was responding to your claim that we all waste and therefore it is okay that we waste for no reason.
490 2011-06-01 06:35:13 <midnightmagic> And won't SOMEone think of the bears?!
491 2011-06-01 06:35:21 <RAM2012> I'm not saying that it is ok to waste for no reason
492 2011-06-01 06:35:38 <Xtians_R_Terrist> What did this mean: <RAM2012> all living things creatre waste in order to live xtian
493 2011-06-01 06:35:41 <midnightmagic> And I'm not not saying he's a baker's dozen short of a rack!
494 2011-06-01 06:35:44 <RAM2012> but you are railing against a new technology, rather than addressing the point of energy production method
495 2011-06-01 06:35:53 <Xtians_R_Terrist> How many other species are producing bitcoins because they don't ahve enough money already?
496 2011-06-01 06:36:00 <midnightmagic> Greys!
497 2011-06-01 06:36:02 <midnightmagic> Hah.. easy one.
498 2011-06-01 06:36:29 <RAM2012> are you arguing for animal rights now?
499 2011-06-01 06:36:33 <Xtians_R_Terrist> RAM2012, you are creating a new technology which makes the energy issues worse without addressing energy production.
500 2011-06-01 06:36:34 <RAM2012> I can't follow you
501 2011-06-01 06:36:46 <midnightmagic> Like I said.. he's thinking of the bears. The.. BitBears.
502 2011-06-01 06:36:49 <RAM2012> all new technologies would fall under that claim
503 2011-06-01 06:37:03 <thermal> Xtians_R_Terrist: http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/uranium.aspx
504 2011-06-01 06:37:03 <Xtians_R_Terrist> All new technologies make energy problems worse?
505 2011-06-01 06:37:11 <thermal> "In summary, the actual recoverable uranium supply is likely to be enough to last several hundred (up to 1000) years, even using standard reactors"
506 2011-06-01 06:37:20 <thermal> i believe you are wrong, sir
507 2011-06-01 06:37:20 <Xtians_R_Terrist> thermal, I am an engineer and know what reserves are.
508 2011-06-01 06:37:27 <RAM2012> breeder reactors create their own new fuel
509 2011-06-01 06:37:28 <midnightmagic> But he's thinking of the bears!
510 2011-06-01 06:37:30 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Your source is not a scientific one.
511 2011-06-01 06:37:41 <thermal> Xtians_R_Terrist: I am a chef and know what sources are.
512 2011-06-01 06:37:42 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Please find one that is credible.
513 2011-06-01 06:37:52 <ArtForz> no true scotsman
514 2011-06-01 06:37:53 <midnightmagic> Hail to the Chef!
515 2011-06-01 06:37:58 <thermal> :D
516 2011-06-01 06:38:11 <RAM2012> ;;ignore Xtians_R_Terrist
517 2011-06-01 06:38:12 <thermal> Xtians_R_Terrist: I gave a source
518 2011-06-01 06:38:13 <Xtians_R_Terrist> And when they say supply will last x years they are using current consumption which is like 15% of world energy total.
519 2011-06-01 06:38:21 <thermal> how about you provide a source for your figure?
520 2011-06-01 06:38:30 <ArtForz> all sources that disagree with me are [industry shills|econazis|whatever]
521 2011-06-01 06:38:33 <thermal> i don't really care what the source is, any will do
522 2011-06-01 06:38:37 <midnightmagic> Only 15? Surely at least 16 now with all the miners gulping power like mad..
523 2011-06-01 06:38:50 <Xtians_R_Terrist> I knkow you don't care because you just posted a trade group's nonsense.
524 2011-06-01 06:38:58 <ArtForz> also, current nukes are inefficient as hell
525 2011-06-01 06:39:09 <ArtForz> < 15% burn ratio without reprocessing
526 2011-06-01 06:39:12 <thermal> so you're *not* going to provide a source for your figure of 100 years?
527 2011-06-01 06:39:31 <Xtians_R_Terrist> What do I get if I do?
528 2011-06-01 06:39:44 <thermal> you avoid looking like an idiot
529 2011-06-01 06:39:44 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Are you going to shut off your bitcoin generating waste machine?
530 2011-06-01 06:39:45 <midnightmagic> Assertions make an ass of.. . her.. and.. uh.. ian!
531 2011-06-01 06:39:50 <thermal> although it may already be too late for that
532 2011-06-01 06:39:57 <Xtians_R_Terrist> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/30/us-coal-mine-deaths-in-20_n_802790.html
533 2011-06-01 06:40:04 <thermal> is that your source?
534 2011-06-01 06:40:17 <midnightmagic> All hail the great Huffer!
535 2011-06-01 06:40:24 <midnightmagic> And Snoo-Snoo all around!
536 2011-06-01 06:40:26 <ArtForz> with reprocessing and breeders this can be easily boosted to > 90%, but thats not really an option thanks to proliferation concerns
537 2011-06-01 06:40:32 <thermal> huffington post is worth like ~$300M USD
538 2011-06-01 06:40:37 <davout> hey all
539 2011-06-01 06:40:37 <thermal> that's awesome. :D
540 2011-06-01 06:40:43 <thermal> hey davout
541 2011-06-01 06:40:45 <eps1> ;;bc,stats
542 2011-06-01 06:40:47 <gribble> Current Blocks: 127931 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 1092 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 14 hours, 20 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 499899.22428189
543 2011-06-01 06:40:50 <midnightmagic> $300m? Why the heck are their articles so lame then?
544 2011-06-01 06:40:52 <eps1> ;;bc,mtgox
545 2011-06-01 06:40:52 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":9.4998,"low":8.1,"vol":46843,"buy":8.72,"sell":8.748,"last":8.72}}
546 2011-06-01 06:41:14 <thermal> Xtians_R_Terrist: problem finding a source?
547 2011-06-01 06:41:25 <davout> i have a question, hoped someone could help me find an answer
548 2011-06-01 06:41:38 <thermal> shoot
549 2011-06-01 06:41:43 <davout> so i've setup jgarzik's pushpool
550 2011-06-01 06:41:48 <davout> pointed it at testnet
551 2011-06-01 06:41:58 <Xtians_R_Terrist> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_uranium
552 2011-06-01 06:42:02 <davout> wondering how to properly detect new blocks
553 2011-06-01 06:42:05 <Xtians_R_Terrist> That will give you a range of estimates.
554 2011-06-01 06:42:36 <Xtians_R_Terrist> In 2006, about 4 million tons of conventional resources were thought to be sufficient at current consumption rates for about six decades (4.06 million tonnes at 65,000 tones per year)
555 2011-06-01 06:42:39 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Is one.
556 2011-06-01 06:43:01 <davout> so i've started assuming that a share is marked with "upstream_result" = "Y" must be a block generation
557 2011-06-01 06:43:04 <Xtians_R_Terrist> From a peer reviewed journal if you care to chase.
558 2011-06-01 06:43:16 <davout> so i've looked the result up on bbe/testnet
559 2011-06-01 06:43:17 <midnightmagic> Ooh! Ooh! I care!
560 2011-06-01 06:43:28 <midnightmagic> Oh.. wait.. no, I don't. Drat.
561 2011-06-01 06:43:31 <davout> w no results
562 2011-06-01 06:44:08 <davout> so basically, the share result hash doesn't really look like a block hash anyway
563 2011-06-01 06:44:13 <davout> so 'im pretty much stuck here
564 2011-06-01 06:44:17 <thermal> Xtians_R_Terrist: thank you
565 2011-06-01 06:44:58 <davout> so i'm wondering about how to fetch block info from a supposedly correct share solution, anyone has an idea ?
566 2011-06-01 06:45:08 <midnightmagic> lol, so.. are you saying there are only 6.66 million tonnes of uranium in the entire world?
567 2011-06-01 06:45:30 <Diablo-D3> that sounds overly high, actually
568 2011-06-01 06:45:56 <ar4s> are there any mac users here that also happen to be using colloquy?
569 2011-06-01 06:45:57 <Diablo-D3> theres probably only 6 million tons of fissionable material
570 2011-06-01 06:46:15 <ArtForz> also note that the "peak uranium" estimates are for U235
571 2011-06-01 06:46:20 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Do you know what a ton is and do you know a million is?
572 2011-06-01 06:46:41 <Diablo-D3> Xtians_R_Terrist: and do you know what a large scale high pressure breeder reactor is?
573 2011-06-01 06:46:46 <ArtForz> as in "no one will build breeders. ever."
574 2011-06-01 06:47:00 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Diablo-D3, do you know of one in operation and producing net energy?
575 2011-06-01 06:47:06 <ar4s> Diablo-D3: Have you heard about Thorium? or Liquid thorium reactors?
576 2011-06-01 06:47:11 <Diablo-D3> Xtians_R_Terrist: you mean besides Earth itself?
577 2011-06-01 06:47:12 <Xtians_R_Terrist> No thorium reactors.
578 2011-06-01 06:47:17 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Go read.
579 2011-06-01 06:47:43 <Diablo-D3> ar4s: thorium looks to be quite useful as the next gen tech
580 2011-06-01 06:47:48 <ar4s> Xtians_R_Terrist: You mean they haven't been built or...?
581 2011-06-01 06:48:00 <Xtians_R_Terrist> It's cute how you non-scientists find nuclear power so exciting because it makes your country a superpower and allows you to stay up all night since you don't need to work...
582 2011-06-01 06:48:09 <Xtians_R_Terrist> But you might try reading some actual science and not science fiction.
583 2011-06-01 06:48:16 <Diablo-D3> ahh, Xtians_R_Terrist is a troll.
584 2011-06-01 06:48:21 <Xtians_R_Terrist> I am not a troll.
585 2011-06-01 06:48:23 <ArtForz> yup, troll
586 2011-06-01 06:48:25 <midnightmagic> "My" country?!
587 2011-06-01 06:48:27 <Xtians_R_Terrist> I am an engineer and an environmentalist.
588 2011-06-01 06:48:29 <ersi> TRololol
589 2011-06-01 06:48:30 <ersi> trolol
590 2011-06-01 06:48:31 <ar4s> Diablo-D3: trollololololol
591 2011-06-01 06:48:32 <ersi> trololol
592 2011-06-01 06:48:35 <ArtForz> trollololo
593 2011-06-01 06:48:36 <ersi> trolollololol
594 2011-06-01 06:48:41 <ersi> etc
595 2011-06-01 06:48:42 <Xtians_R_Terrist> You are children who think technology you don't know anything about is inevitably going to save us.
596 2011-06-01 06:48:56 <Xtians_R_Terrist> It isn't going to save us becasue it doesn't work or we would already be using it.
597 2011-06-01 06:49:00 <Diablo-D3> It sounds like someone shit in Xtians_R_Terrist's cheerios today
598 2011-06-01 06:49:02 <ersi> Live fast, die young. TRUST YOUR TECNOLUST
599 2011-06-01 06:49:03 <ArtForz> yes, save us, oh great leader!
600 2011-06-01 06:49:04 <midnightmagic> Is that an English sentence?
601 2011-06-01 06:49:07 <ar4s> Xtians_R_Terrist: I trust the scientists who can build it, more than I trust you.
602 2011-06-01 06:49:11 <Diablo-D3> Xtians_R_Terrist: actually, thorium reactors DO work
603 2011-06-01 06:49:15 <Xtians_R_Terrist> No, they don't.
604 2011-06-01 06:49:17 <ArtForz> Diablo-D3: yup
605 2011-06-01 06:49:21 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Cite a reactor.
606 2011-06-01 06:49:25 <ersi> Xtians_R_Terrist: Way to go, you made us all change our minds now!
607 2011-06-01 06:49:29 <theorbtwo> Xtians_R_Terrist: By that argument, all progress is impossible.
608 2011-06-01 06:49:30 <Xtians_R_Terrist> I know the article you'r reading.
609 2011-06-01 06:49:35 <Xtians_R_Terrist> Read the rest.
610 2011-06-01 06:49:40 <midnightmagic> I definitely trust Xtians_R_Terrist.. I mean, just look at the name. It screams reliable.
611 2011-06-01 06:49:53 <Xtians_R_Terrist> theorbtwo, by your argument any progress is possible no matter how impossible.
612 2011-06-01 06:49:56 <theorbtwo> 150 years ago, cars were impossible, because if they were possible, we'd already be using them.
613 2011-06-01 06:50:06 <Xtians_R_Terrist> 150 years ago they had steam powered cars.
614 2011-06-01 06:50:10 <ersi> Xtians_R_Terrist: Derpa derp a derp trolollol herp herp a derp