1 2011-06-05 00:26:19 <zooko> Wow, I just learned about clearcoin and it makes me happy.
  2 2011-06-05 00:28:09 <denisx> it should be possible to connect pushpoold to btcguild, right?
  3 2011-06-05 00:36:49 <Matson> window list
  4 2011-06-05 00:37:07 <Matson> oops
  5 2011-06-05 00:42:44 <wistiu> does bitcoin run in linux
  6 2011-06-05 00:43:15 <Graet> yes
  7 2011-06-05 00:43:26 <Graet> google bitcoin linux
  8 2011-06-05 00:43:26 <wistiu> oh should it be compiled
  9 2011-06-05 00:43:57 <Graet> dunjno i run win, but i know ppl use several versions of *nix
 10 2011-06-05 00:44:03 <wistiu> i c
 11 2011-06-05 00:44:11 <Graet> there really are plenty of forums with guides
 12 2011-06-05 00:44:43 <Graet> maybe google bitcoin <your distro>
 13 2011-06-05 00:45:05 <somecoiner> the question is, "Why would I run on Windows?"
 14 2011-06-05 00:45:25 <Graet> somecoiner dunno, but i know why i  do.....
 15 2011-06-05 00:45:34 <Graet> thats what matters to me :)
 16 2011-06-05 00:45:40 <somecoiner> Graet: I would love to hear this
 17 2011-06-05 00:46:15 <Graet> i was in a rush - simple to setup, basically
 18 2011-06-05 00:47:01 <somecoiner> " I use MicroSoft products because court records tell me that the NSA has 3 backdoors into their software. This is secure and why I use it for financial transactions"...
 19 2011-06-05 00:47:13 <Graet> had a go on my ubuntu box seemed like lots of messing round, win install ati, run guiminer, make profit :P
 20 2011-06-05 00:47:29 <Graet> mm i only use it on my miners
 21 2011-06-05 00:48:12 <Graet> but meh, pointless discussion imo. v similar to the usual linux/win . ford/holden, wine/beer arguments i'm over ;)
 22 2011-06-05 00:57:53 <diki> today was the first time my client froze on sending bitcoins..
 23 2011-06-05 01:06:01 <wistiu> is it recommended to compile bitcoin on linix
 24 2011-06-05 01:06:56 <denisx> ;;bc,stats
 25 2011-06-05 01:06:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128694 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 329 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 17 hours, 45 minutes, and 53 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 545102.33572610
 26 2011-06-05 01:07:49 <wistiu> or windows better
 27 2011-06-05 01:14:31 <diki> how long before my tx get's confirmed?
 28 2011-06-05 01:14:38 <diki> the client froze during sending...
 29 2011-06-05 01:14:39 <wistiu> 10 minutes per confirmation on avg
 30 2011-06-05 01:14:51 <diki> it doesnt even show the tx on bitcoincharts
 31 2011-06-05 01:14:58 <wistiu> lookup the address on blockexplorer
 32 2011-06-05 01:15:10 <wistiu> it probbly didn't send
 33 2011-06-05 01:15:42 <diki> but my btc are gone...
 34 2011-06-05 01:15:52 <diki> and according to blockexplorer nothing was sent
 35 2011-06-05 01:16:00 <wistiu> hmm'
 36 2011-06-05 01:16:22 <wistiu> maybe its resending it
 37 2011-06-05 01:16:32 <diki> few blocks already passed
 38 2011-06-05 01:17:04 <somecoiner> restore from a backup wallet and try again?
 39 2011-06-05 01:17:27 <diki> i do have a backup...but from an older day
 40 2011-06-05 01:17:33 <diki> yesterday i believe
 41 2011-06-05 01:20:05 <diki> yeah..finally appeared
 42 2011-06-05 01:27:35 <Matson> has anyone got pointers to security analysis of the algorithms and/or the code?
 43 2011-06-05 01:28:34 <Matson> specifically, have there been any research groups or computer crypto experts *not* in the bitcoin community who have reviewed the algorithms for flaws or attack vectors and then published the (blog, journal, anywhere) results?
 44 2011-06-05 01:31:06 <luke-jr> Matson: & subtle flaw in your question
 45 2011-06-05 01:31:18 <somecoiner> Matson: not that I know of, but you can look atthe code yourself, and look at analysis of the independant subsystems...
 46 2011-06-05 01:31:25 <Matson> luke-jr: it's subtle flaws that worry me
 47 2011-06-05 01:31:41 <luke-jr> Matson: assuming Bitcoin doesn't have any significant flaws, and someone independent did do a review, wouldn't it be stupid for them to remain "*not* in the bitcoin community"?
 48 2011-06-05 01:32:22 <luke-jr> it's basically like asking for a non-Catholic who has proven Catholicism to be correct
 49 2011-06-05 01:32:26 <Matson> luke-jr: as long as they do the review from a startpoint of not bought into the idea, their analysis is slightly more credible
 50 2011-06-05 01:32:28 <somecoiner> there are plenty of people out there that think they are economist, believe in the code, but think the market will not make it...
 51 2011-06-05 01:32:48 <Matson> somecoiner: "make it" is pretty relative
 52 2011-06-05 01:32:59 <somecoiner> Matson: no, it is not
 53 2011-06-05 01:33:19 <Matson> somecoiner: how do you define "make it"?
 54 2011-06-05 01:33:42 <somecoiner> Lets gow ith your definition
 55 2011-06-05 01:33:52 <Matson> I don't have one
 56 2011-06-05 01:33:55 <somecoiner> ...
 57 2011-06-05 01:34:00 <Matson> there is only what it
 58 2011-06-05 01:34:03 <Matson> erm
 59 2011-06-05 01:34:10 <Matson> there is only what is
 60 2011-06-05 01:34:18 <somecoiner> Very deep
 61 2011-06-05 01:34:47 <Matson> at this point there is an asset, a distributed digital signature exchange system being touted as a currency
 62 2011-06-05 01:35:03 <Matson> that has gone up in value 70% since Thursday
 63 2011-06-05 01:35:11 <somecoiner> This is not the kind of thing that will partially succeed, it will either fail or not
 64 2011-06-05 01:35:23 <Matson> and currently is trading on what appears to be an open market at about $USD 18 each
 65 2011-06-05 01:35:31 <somecoiner> just like paper is touted as a currency...
 66 2011-06-05 01:36:07 <Matson> currently paper dollar are a currency, defined as an item whose trade value is higher than it's value as a resource
 67 2011-06-05 01:36:08 <Graet> http://astrohacker.com/ahc/bitcoin-is-the-economic-singularity/  << interesting article
 68 2011-06-05 01:36:31 <Matson> bitcoin at the moment has more value as an asset than as a trade item, so it is not yet a currency
 69 2011-06-05 01:38:05 <Matson> Graet: the like "There are no credible attack vectors at all" is what brought me here to ask my question
 70 2011-06-05 01:38:15 <somecoiner> Interesting definition. How about a currency is anything you can use to trade with, that has no inherent value?
 71 2011-06-05 01:38:25 <Matson> absolutes and black and white "fail or not" are typically red flags for me
 72 2011-06-05 01:38:53 <Matson> somecoiner: that's not the definition other people use, nor is it really a useful starting point
 73 2011-06-05 01:38:57 <somecoiner> Are you good at being partially alive?
 74 2011-06-05 01:39:06 <Matson> somecoiner: often currencies do have intrinsic value
 75 2011-06-05 01:39:09 <somecoiner> Its a very useful starting point.
 76 2011-06-05 01:39:19 <somecoiner> That is exactly what I said above
 77 2011-06-05 01:39:33 <Matson> cigarettes are commonly used as currencies in prisons, for example
 78 2011-06-05 01:39:38 <somecoiner> So I would like you to show me where y definition is wrong
 79 2011-06-05 01:39:53 <Matson> gold coins are currencies almost entirely becuase of the uses for gold
 80 2011-06-05 01:39:53 <somecoiner> that is a comodity
 81 2011-06-05 01:40:00 <Matson> lol
 82 2011-06-05 01:40:07 <Matson> somecoiner: did you ever study economics?
 83 2011-06-05 01:40:19 <somecoiner> lol
 84 2011-06-05 01:40:22 <somecoiner> Yes
 85 2011-06-05 01:40:43 <somecoiner> And this board is full of people that think they are economist, but are just full of shit
 86 2011-06-05 01:40:46 <Matson> commodities are interchangable items whose cost approaches the marginal cost of production
 87 2011-06-05 01:41:05 <Matson> the definition of irony, right there
 88 2011-06-05 01:41:21 <somecoiner> What is the cost of production of a bitcoin?
 89 2011-06-05 01:41:46 <Matson> that changes over time
 90 2011-06-05 01:41:46 <wistiu> 2 bitcoins
 91 2011-06-05 01:41:47 <luke-jr> somecoiner: approximately $15 USD right now I think
 92 2011-06-05 01:42:01 <Matson> depends on a lot of things
 93 2011-06-05 01:42:02 <luke-jr> somecoiner: since the value has gone up, the cost to produce more will shortly
 94 2011-06-05 01:42:09 <Matson> eventually, it will be infinite
 95 2011-06-05 01:42:32 <Matson> I think the graph I saw, if I believe it, was that after 2017, there will be no more made
 96 2011-06-05 01:42:54 <luke-jr> Matson: no
 97 2011-06-05 01:43:02 <luke-jr> Matson: there will be more made until like 21xx
 98 2011-06-05 01:43:29 <Matson> luke-jr: ref?
 99 2011-06-05 01:43:42 <luke-jr> Matson: source code
100 2011-06-05 01:43:49 <Matson> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/File:Total_bitcoins_over_time_graph.png
101 2011-06-05 01:44:13 <Matson> sorry it was 2033 on that graph, effectively 0 more made
102 2011-06-05 01:44:21 <luke-jr> Matson: zoom in :p
103 2011-06-05 01:44:35 <luke-jr> Matson: that line goes closer to 21mil
104 2011-06-05 01:44:42 <somecoiner> Matson: that graph goes to 2033?
105 2011-06-05 01:45:00 <Diablo-D3> that graph is shit
106 2011-06-05 01:45:05 <lfm> matson after 2140 there will be no more bitcoins made
107 2011-06-05 01:45:08 <shak> hi
108 2011-06-05 01:45:19 <somecoiner> So to compare, when will US dollars stop being made?
109 2011-06-05 01:45:37 <shak> how to run multiple json-rpc accounts on bitcoind ? example with 2 users:  user1:pass1 & user2:pass2 ? actually it works with only 1 login:pass
110 2011-06-05 01:45:38 <Matson> fire in the treasury building?
111 2011-06-05 01:45:55 <shak> I want to run a pool with my school friends , but we want possibility to have a login:pass for each student
112 2011-06-05 01:46:07 <lfm> shak: you are right
113 2011-06-05 01:46:19 <shak> how they do this on pool mining sites??
114 2011-06-05 01:46:23 <shak> hi lfm
115 2011-06-05 01:46:27 <luke-jr> shak: not with bitcoind
116 2011-06-05 01:46:35 <Matson> bitcoins are not a commodity, as there is a limited supply, but they are close
117 2011-06-05 01:46:36 <lfm> shak you need pool software then, not just bitcoind
118 2011-06-05 01:46:37 <shak> with an other cli?
119 2011-06-05 01:47:05 <somecoiner> So commodities have no supply limit, is what you ar saying?
120 2011-06-05 01:47:08 <lfm> matson, I was not aware of that definition of a comodity
121 2011-06-05 01:47:21 <somecoiner> Because it is not correct
122 2011-06-05 01:47:39 <shak> and there is pool softs for that okok? u have a tip for the name?
123 2011-06-05 01:47:44 <shak> :)
124 2011-06-05 01:47:49 <Matson> hmmm
125 2011-06-05 01:47:53 <Matson> I may have to modify that
126 2011-06-05 01:48:01 <Graet> shak pushpool
127 2011-06-05 01:48:44 <shak> thanks I will look this ;)
128 2011-06-05 01:48:48 <somecoiner> Matson: Im not trying to be a dick (altought I often am...). I just want to clearly define what we are talking about here
129 2011-06-05 01:48:59 <Matson> are we still talking?
130 2011-06-05 01:49:04 <somecoiner> I guess not
131 2011-06-05 01:49:22 <Matson> sure, I'm up for chatting, I am *really* interested in bitcoin
132 2011-06-05 01:49:39 <Matson> still looking if anyone has done a thorough crypto analysis on this algorithms
133 2011-06-05 01:49:53 <Matson> er on the algorithms
134 2011-06-05 01:50:29 <Matson> somecoiner: I think bitcoin is not a currency yet, becuase people are not using it as a currency
135 2011-06-05 01:50:33 <somecoiner> Most of them are NIST, so they analysis are well documented. Just not as a package
136 2011-06-05 01:50:41 <lfm> matson well theres lots of people done analysis of sha256 and the ecdsa routines
137 2011-06-05 01:50:46 <somecoiner> Matson: good. I can go with that
138 2011-06-05 01:51:09 <Matson> I think bitcoin has a lot of really nice qualities that will help it *become* a currency, and it
139 2011-06-05 01:51:33 <Matson> has a lot of qualities that will make it's use especially problematic for society as it exists today
140 2011-06-05 01:52:00 <Matson> pn balance I don't know hich of those two factors will win.
141 2011-06-05 01:52:15 <Matson> erm "on balance" ... which
142 2011-06-05 01:53:03 <Matson> as for intrinsic value of a bitcoin, I think there are a few
143 2011-06-05 01:53:54 <Matson> it's transparent nature lends credibility and trust that outweight existing currency alternatives
144 2011-06-05 01:54:47 <Matson> there does not yet appear to be the ability to have anonymous or untraceable transactions, but I'm still reading on this - if that becomes real it will bring with it huge benefits and huge risks
145 2011-06-05 01:55:06 <SPACE_LAWYER> who are you even talking to
146 2011-06-05 01:55:08 <Matson> somecoiner: what are your thoughts
147 2011-06-05 01:55:13 <SPACE_LAWYER> ok
148 2011-06-05 01:55:25 <Matson> least I thought I was... you still chatting w me?
149 2011-06-05 01:55:27 <jgarzik> Matson: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Anonymity
150 2011-06-05 01:55:31 <somecoiner> Matson: you can merge and spit transactions to hide them. But this is "not normal"
151 2011-06-05 01:55:35 <Graet> https://blindbitcoin.com/  << theres a start Matson :0
152 2011-06-05 01:56:07 <somecoiner> Matson: so you can push 10 BTC into multiple splits. This makes it very hard to trace flow
153 2011-06-05 01:56:17 <Matson> merges and splits still lead to tracability
154 2011-06-05 01:56:30 <Matson> ok
155 2011-06-05 01:56:38 <tsp> I get an RPC error when trying to copy a bitcoin address to clipboard in windows client, 0.3.21beta. Known bug?
156 2011-06-05 01:56:53 <somecoiner> So 3 BTC goes here, 6 BTC goes there and the rest to some other address. Then if you do not use the address again, it has been "washed" so to speak. Please let me know if this is not correct
157 2011-06-05 01:57:06 <tsp> Failed to put data on the clipboard (error -2147023169: the remote procedure call failed and did not execute.)
158 2011-06-05 01:57:08 <somecoiner> Known windows bug?
159 2011-06-05 01:58:36 <lfm> somecoiner: there is always a sequence of "addresses" that can be followed. you never know when a transaction you have made is anonymity compromised on the other side.
160 2011-06-05 01:58:56 <somecoiner> Matson: how is it traceable if you use a new address each time? You can determine what address has "How much", but I think thats where the leak ends?
161 2011-06-05 01:59:26 <somecoiner> lfm: true. If the other side owns you. then all bets are off. But that is not true is most cases
162 2011-06-05 01:59:38 <gmaxwell> somecoiner: you can see the flow of funds into and out of an address.
163 2011-06-05 01:59:47 <lfm> well if you pay someone, they can inform on you. if you are paid by someone, they can also inform on you
164 2011-06-05 01:59:53 <somecoiner> Sorry, Im haing problems typing...
165 2011-06-05 01:59:55 <gmaxwell> so you find one identifyable end point and subponea your way back as far as you like.
166 2011-06-05 01:59:59 <somecoiner> ^fuck,,, having
167 2011-06-05 02:00:00 <gribble> Error: "," is not a valid command.
168 2011-06-05 02:00:14 <gmaxwell> (and/or you monitor the network and gather information as you go)
169 2011-06-05 02:00:43 <somecoiner> gmaxwell: a subponea chain is almost useless here
170 2011-06-05 02:01:02 <gmaxwell> somecoiner: I don't know what here means.
171 2011-06-05 02:01:09 <lfm> somecoiner: how bout a toture chain
172 2011-06-05 02:01:31 <Matson> sry was afk, back
173 2011-06-05 02:01:55 <somecoiner> gmaxwell: subponea stop when you go outside the borders of jurisdiction.
174 2011-06-05 02:02:27 <Matson> somecoiner: that's just when treaties and political pressure starts
175 2011-06-05 02:03:13 <lfm> and dirty tricks like espionage, kidnaps and "enhanced interrogation"
176 2011-06-05 02:03:14 <somecoiner> I don't know if anyone here deals with these on a daily basis, but I do. They are not effective in 99% of cases
177 2011-06-05 02:03:27 <somecoiner> lfm: So right: http://xkcd.com/538/
178 2011-06-05 02:03:29 <Matson> gmaxwell: "subponea your way back" through people all over the world?  his point is that is not possible
179 2011-06-05 02:04:41 <lfm> somecoiner: and they can just break into your computer and get a copy of all your addresses (currently, future might have passwords needed)
180 2011-06-05 02:05:27 <citiz3n> kaspersky is detecting bitcoin traffic as a DoS attack
181 2011-06-05 02:05:29 <citiz3n> :\n767728
182 2011-06-05 02:05:46 <somecoiner> IRC traffic is often confused with DoS attacks...
183 2011-06-05 02:05:59 <citiz3n> this is all port 8333
184 2011-06-05 02:06:02 <citiz3n> bitcoin client
185 2011-06-05 02:06:18 <somecoiner> lfm: chinese wallet hacking will become a very big problem in the next few months
186 2011-06-05 02:06:58 <somecoiner> citiz3n: the port doesnt matter. To the router, you just get floods of UDP traffic when blocks are being pushed around.
187 2011-06-05 02:07:26 <somecoiner> It starts to look like spam to many IRC monitor programs
188 2011-06-05 02:07:50 <citiz3n> it must be some update kaspersky did
189 2011-06-05 02:07:57 <citiz3n> this is the first time it's done this
190 2011-06-05 02:08:01 <lfm> somecoiner: I dont think bitcoin traffic is that high really
191 2011-06-05 02:08:16 <citiz3n> im trying to figure out how to disable it lol
192 2011-06-05 02:08:49 <lfm> citiz3n: send email to kaspersky
193 2011-06-05 02:08:55 <somecoiner> Every client that connects increases the echo pool. Is that correct?
194 2011-06-05 02:09:14 <lfm> somecoiner: what is "echo pool"?
195 2011-06-05 02:09:28 <somecoiner> sorry, bad term
196 2011-06-05 02:09:47 <lfm> somecoiner: most only connect to 8 other nodes
197 2011-06-05 02:10:07 <somecoiner> lfm: I believe the linux client default as 100
198 2011-06-05 02:10:23 <lfm> somecoiner: the bitcoin default is 8
199 2011-06-05 02:11:08 <lfm> no matter the os
200 2011-06-05 02:12:24 <somecoiner> hmm. then never mind. Thanks for the correction
201 2011-06-05 02:12:51 <lfm> when you enable incomming connects it can grow higher
202 2011-06-05 02:13:18 <somecoiner> then the DDoS stuff shouldnt be flagging the IRC traffic based on bandwidth...
203 2011-06-05 02:13:32 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,mtgox
204 2011-06-05 02:13:33 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":18.998,"low":14.2006,"vol":44696,"buy":17.81,"sell":17.9999,"last":17.9999}}
205 2011-06-05 02:13:38 <midnightmagic> wtf
206 2011-06-05 02:13:41 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
207 2011-06-05 02:13:43 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128700 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 323 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 17 hours, 5 minutes, and 34 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 544257.49987872
208 2011-06-05 02:13:47 <somecoiner> Ya, I was pretty sure the first time I fired up a default client, I had 23 connections.
209 2011-06-05 02:14:18 <somecoiner> So actually, 8 is not the cap?
210 2011-06-05 02:14:25 <lfm> if it was no NAT then maybe you would see that many after a while
211 2011-06-05 02:14:44 <lfm> no 8 is not a cap
212 2011-06-05 02:15:02 <midnightmagic> 8 is a cap on the OUTGOING connections it maintains.
213 2011-06-05 02:15:11 <midnightmagic> if you want it to stay at 8, you have to disable incoming connections.
214 2011-06-05 02:15:39 <midnightmagic> like, firewall them off or something.
215 2011-06-05 02:15:49 <lfm> I think the way it works is if the number of connections fall below 8 then it will start trying to make more. It still accepts new incomming connects tho
216 2011-06-05 02:16:24 <midnightmagic> right, new *incoming* connections, it accepts.
217 2011-06-05 02:17:16 <midnightmagic> i guess your explanation is probably the more accurate.
218 2011-06-05 02:17:16 <somecoiner> So when a now block is pushed, there is a great deal of chatter that happens between all clients? Is this just (blocksize * numbec of peers) ?
219 2011-06-05 02:17:57 <midnightmagic> think of it as a pair: when a block has traversed a pair, i don't believe it will traverse it again
220 2011-06-05 02:18:10 <lfm> somecoiner: its just an announcment mostly, I have clock x and then if your naighbor has block x and you dont you request block x from him
221 2011-06-05 02:18:41 <lfm> clock -> block
222 2011-06-05 02:18:45 <midnightmagic> your explanations are better than mine. i'm going to be quiet now. :)
223 2011-06-05 02:18:46 <somecoiner> I thought you requested the blocks from many sources to validate by length?
224 2011-06-05 02:19:11 <somecoiner> I assumed every source that is a peer?
225 2011-06-05 02:19:18 <lfm> somecoiner: no need for du-plicates, if the hashes conform
226 2011-06-05 02:19:43 <somecoiner> How do you know it is a dup until you query it?
227 2011-06-05 02:20:23 <lfm> if you have block x you dont need another.
228 2011-06-05 02:20:27 <somecoiner> hash of hash thing?
229 2011-06-05 02:20:49 <somecoiner> I thought you had to validate block X when you get it?
230 2011-06-05 02:21:10 <somecoiner> So you compare it to other peres that say they have block x?
231 2011-06-05 02:21:14 <somecoiner> ^peers
232 2011-06-05 02:21:35 <lfm> ya, if the hashes do not validade then it gets more complex, it might be a fork so you need to request block x - 1 to see if it matches
233 2011-06-05 02:22:06 <somecoiner> Ya, then you request block X from many peers to determine longest block, thus validating it. Am I missing something?
234 2011-06-05 02:22:25 <midnightmagic> i think you only request a block from a single peer, isn't that so?
235 2011-06-05 02:22:38 <somecoiner> Or is there a point where the client decides that it compare 5 hashes and that is enough, or something?
236 2011-06-05 02:22:54 <midnightmagic> at least, in the debug.log I don't see any more than a single request for a block when i'm catching up after an absence.
237 2011-06-05 02:23:01 <lfm> I think its more efficient than that. so long as you have a valid block x, you dont worry.
238 2011-06-05 02:23:37 <somecoiner> If that is the case, then Im going to stop using btc... that doesnt sound like it tries to validate blocks very well
239 2011-06-05 02:24:05 <midnightmagic> somecoiner: if a block satisfies the requirements that it be legitimate, then it is by definition a legitimate block. the only definition of canonical is "longest chain" if there are two longest chains, a fork happens and the client maintains a history of both until the next block arrives.
240 2011-06-05 02:24:29 <lfm> somecoiner: well every block has a 256 bit hash of the previous block so if it is good then there should not be any reason to worry
241 2011-06-05 02:24:46 <midnightmagic> if someone has a block and you verify the hashes, then you are guaranteed that someone, somewhere did the work required to build that block.
242 2011-06-05 02:25:01 <somecoiner> So validation of a block happens not by comparison, but by validating the transactios in the chain?
243 2011-06-05 02:25:26 <lfm> somecoiner: note the hashes of the new blocks must also conform to the difficulty to it is no simple matter to just make up blocks
244 2011-06-05 02:25:37 <somecoiner> YA, I guess I am more concerned with forking blocks then, as that is the attack vector that we are trying to stop
245 2011-06-05 02:25:43 <midnightmagic> it happens by verifying the proof-of-work: you do a hash, and if the hash matches, then you just proved that someone did a LOT of work to find that match.
246 2011-06-05 02:26:13 <somecoiner> ya, I got that... basis for blocks and such. But I thought forking happened more often I guess?
247 2011-06-05 02:26:30 <midnightmagic> only on testnet. there's some wild five-deep fork chains there.
248 2011-06-05 02:26:38 <somecoiner> Or maybe it will in teh future as more processing power is thrown atthe problem
249 2011-06-05 02:26:39 <midnightmagic> i mean main will sometimes fork.
250 2011-06-05 02:26:58 <lfm> or at least the odd are they had to, and by chaining them together the odds also stack up to make it less and less likely that there is anything wrong
251 2011-06-05 02:26:58 <midnightmagic> but i've never seen a fork in main more than one block long.
252 2011-06-05 02:27:05 <somecoiner> Ah, thanks for clairification
253 2011-06-05 02:27:22 <midnightmagic> if you would like to see the history, you can run: bitcoind -printblocktree
254 2011-06-05 02:27:27 <midnightmagic> lemme show you what a fork looks like..
255 2011-06-05 02:27:53 <somecoiner> I was under the ipression that forking happened all the time and thus block compares were common, thus more peer to peer traffic, thus IRC DDoS foo as above
256 2011-06-05 02:28:11 <lfm> forking is pretty rare
257 2011-06-05 02:28:18 <midnightmagic> 20952 (1,14590552) 000000001052a41fa014  05/26/11 12:52:18  tx 1
258 2011-06-05 02:28:24 <midnightmagic> that's in testnet
259 2011-06-05 02:28:27 <somecoiner> I fork happens when 2 clients solve at the same time?
260 2011-06-05 02:28:30 <lfm> mayebe once a day or less.
261 2011-06-05 02:28:42 <midnightmagic> then, down further is another 20953.
262 2011-06-05 02:28:50 <midnightmagic> forking happens once again in main?!
263 2011-06-05 02:28:56 <midnightmagic> er..  once a day?
264 2011-06-05 02:29:08 <jrmithdobbs> sounds about right
265 2011-06-05 02:29:10 <lfm> somecoiner: ya, normally it is just two discoveries too close together, then the next block resolves it
266 2011-06-05 02:29:12 <luke-jr> IMO, that's a design flaw :p
267 2011-06-05 02:29:29 <luke-jr> Satoshi should have designed the system to not only tolerate forking, but encourage it
268 2011-06-05 02:29:45 <lfm> luke-jr: huh?
269 2011-06-05 02:29:47 <somecoiner> given the p2p nature, you have to fudge somewhere... forknig blocks seems like a godo place to solve the problem
270 2011-06-05 02:30:15 <midnightmagic> no, between 03/04/11 and 05/26/11 there were no forks
271 2011-06-05 02:30:19 <somecoiner> crap, out of beer. back in 10m. keep thread running :)
272 2011-06-05 02:30:32 <midnightmagic> 2 on the 27th, one on the 30th..
273 2011-06-05 02:30:38 <luke-jr> lfm: it's by no means trivial to solve, but I think it can be done
274 2011-06-05 02:30:40 <midnightmagic> then the next on 06/03/11
275 2011-06-05 02:30:51 <lfm> luke-jr: you are playing with the open source forking versus block chain forking, just kidding right
276 2011-06-05 02:31:03 <luke-jr> lfm: no
277 2011-06-05 02:31:25 <midnightmagic> what does it buy is to fork the blockchain?
278 2011-06-05 02:31:29 <midnightmagic> is => us
279 2011-06-05 02:31:38 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: interplanetary bitcoin
280 2011-06-05 02:32:14 <zooko> luke-jr: I agree! But I'm too busy to work on that right now, so you get started.
281 2011-06-05 02:32:15 <lfm> luke-jr: block chain forks are very expensive and generally undesirable. I dont see why anyone would want to encourage them
282 2011-06-05 02:32:22 <zooko> Hopefully we'll have a new design deployed before colonizing Mars.
283 2011-06-05 02:32:27 <midnightmagic> i'm pretty sure the latency between earth and mars would make a sync'd blockchain pretty much useless. communication latency is greater than the block generation speed.
284 2011-06-05 02:32:28 <luke-jr> zooko: it's not a significant enough problem
285 2011-06-05 02:32:37 <midnightmagic> oh hey zooko!
286 2011-06-05 02:32:38 <midnightmagic> o
287 2011-06-05 02:32:42 <luke-jr> lfm: they're expensive and undesirable *because* of the design flaw :P
288 2011-06-05 02:32:50 <zooko> Hi! :-)
289 2011-06-05 02:32:51 <midnightmagic> welcome to the tulip fields my friend!
290 2011-06-05 02:32:55 <zooko> Haha1
291 2011-06-05 02:33:12 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: p2p code being slow/inefficient to propigate blocks/txns wouldn't cause major resource use if forking was "encouraged" (though i'm not sure exactly how luke would propose that be implemented)
292 2011-06-05 02:33:16 <zooko> Yeah, I've decided to buy tulip bulbs--I mean BitCoins--now before the price skyrockets.
293 2011-06-05 02:33:29 <zooko> But I can't, because I don't have any way to move USD into mtgox overnight.
294 2011-06-05 02:33:41 <midnightmagic> 24% within a day, and then 30% within a day just a couple of days ago. difficulty is going to go through the roof.
295 2011-06-05 02:34:07 <luke-jr> zooko: midnightmagic can send you some :P
296 2011-06-05 02:34:16 <midnightmagic> some bitcoins?
297 2011-06-05 02:34:22 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: MTGUSD? :p
298 2011-06-05 02:34:33 <luke-jr> zooko: could always buy off Market too
299 2011-06-05 02:34:37 <lfm> luke-jr: I dont follow? interplanetary bitcoin could be done fairly easy as a separate block chain with slower block rate, like an average of one block a day. then have separate earth and mars bitcoin block chains with the normal speeds.
300 2011-06-05 02:34:49 <midnightmagic> just as a joke i put a sell @ $17, and then stupidly stopped monitoring it for about 18 hours. sigh.
301 2011-06-05 02:34:54 <luke-jr> lfm: I didn't say there wasn't a viable workaround to the problem either
302 2011-06-05 02:35:02 <luke-jr> lol midnightmagic
303 2011-06-05 02:35:14 <midnightmagic> yeah brutal man
304 2011-06-05 02:35:22 <luke-jr> I wonder how many of those there were at $10
305 2011-06-05 02:35:23 <midnightmagic> all my f'in ? are gone
306 2011-06-05 02:35:26 <lfm> midnightmagic: good joke
307 2011-06-05 02:35:36 <zooko> midnightmagic: ... but now you have a lot more USD?
308 2011-06-05 02:35:38 <zooko> Things could be worse.
309 2011-06-05 02:35:41 <midnightmagic> crappy joke, i meant to re-integrate the coins into my wallet now
310 2011-06-05 02:35:50 <luke-jr> zooko: but now it'll be expensive for him to get his Bitcoins back
311 2011-06-05 02:35:51 <midnightmagic> no can do now.
312 2011-06-05 02:36:05 <zooko> Poor mm!
313 2011-06-05 02:36:12 <midnightmagic> =]
314 2011-06-05 02:36:35 <lfm> well you could get some of them back if you really need some
315 2011-06-05 02:36:40 <midnightmagic> first time! well congrats man.
316 2011-06-05 02:37:41 <luke-jr> zooko: bitcoind isn't really for end users fyi
317 2011-06-05 02:37:47 <midnightmagic> it's really bothering me that people are using it just as a communal wealth storage vehicle rather than a real currency. this kind of insane value hike makes people want to hoard. :(
318 2011-06-05 02:38:05 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: unfortunately, I suspect it's the opposite
319 2011-06-05 02:38:13 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: zooko is the sort you really, really want running it.
320 2011-06-05 02:38:25 <luke-jr> the recent bubbling has been right after druggies got wind of that drug site
321 2011-06-05 02:38:36 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: the server?
322 2011-06-05 02:38:38 <midnightmagic> zooko is far too modest.
323 2011-06-05 02:38:41 <lfm> if theyre smart it would make them want to sell of at least some, get some profit while they can
324 2011-06-05 02:38:50 <midnightmagic> yeah. bitcoind. getting into the code, the protocol. everything.
325 2011-06-05 02:38:56 <luke-jr> who is zooko?
326 2011-06-05 02:39:17 <luke-jr> I mean, no cloak, IPv4, doesn't look all that up on tech & :p
327 2011-06-05 02:39:34 <midnightmagic> it doesn't matter
328 2011-06-05 02:39:42 <midnightmagic> none of that matters. go google him.
329 2011-06-05 02:39:43 <luke-jr> some business guy then?
330 2011-06-05 02:39:52 <midnightmagic> lol
331 2011-06-05 02:40:00 <zooko> I actually *am* trying to start a business.
332 2011-06-05 02:40:03 <midnightmagic> if I wax poetic i suspect i'd embarrass him
333 2011-06-05 02:40:07 <zooko> But my experience is mostly in programming.
334 2011-06-05 02:40:27 <zooko> The business I'm trying to start is to sell Tahoe-LAFS storage service.
335 2011-06-05 02:40:32 <zooko> That's a very secure cloud storage system.
336 2011-06-05 02:40:42 <luke-jr> zooko's wikipedia looks just like all the other bitcoin geeks
337 2011-06-05 02:41:11 <luke-jr> anarchist or libertarian type
338 2011-06-05 02:43:51 <midnightmagic> this particular market is too small yet; the numbers won't stabilize. there's no break-in period like in a stock market. all models I've seen people try to aply to ? all fail because of the unique nature of the supply.
339 2011-06-05 02:44:10 <midnightmagic> well..  not in the short-term anyway.
340 2011-06-05 02:45:35 <somecoiner> the user base will increase another 2 magnitudes over the next 6 months, then flatten out a bit. that will endthe start up period and cause a bit more "stability"
341 2011-06-05 02:46:03 <midnightmagic> only 2? it's a worldwide currency. the magnitudes won't stop for years.
342 2011-06-05 02:46:25 <somecoiner> yes, but my projection is just for the next 6 months
343 2011-06-05 02:46:46 <somecoiner> you are right, it wont stop, but it will slow down
344 2011-06-05 02:46:56 <somecoiner> just like the mining curve
345 2011-06-05 02:47:14 <midnightmagic> namecoin stole some of that, as did DDoS'ing the public pools.
346 2011-06-05 02:47:28 <midnightmagic> and mining equipment supplies are pretty much gone.
347 2011-06-05 02:47:33 <midnightmagic> it's not for lack of demand..
348 2011-06-05 02:49:22 <somecoiner> nope, but there are only so many people on the planet with dedicated machines. As you increase users, your pool of new users deceases and slows down. You will hit a point where the adoptino will meet an even chunk rate
349 2011-06-05 02:49:27 <somecoiner> ^churn rate
350 2011-06-05 02:49:42 <zooko> Hm, I just realized that there might actually be a market for miner FPGAs.
351 2011-06-05 02:50:01 <somecoiner> too expensive
352 2011-06-05 02:52:33 <zooko> Surely it is more cost-effective than GPUs, after you've run it long enough to mine BitCoins. Right?
353 2011-06-05 02:53:13 <somecoiner> yes
354 2011-06-05 02:53:49 <somecoiner> the upfront cost is too high, no one knows how to code for them properly, and what do you do with them when you are done?
355 2011-06-05 02:54:14 <zooko> Play Quake 5?
356 2011-06-05 02:54:18 <somecoiner> but, yes, they are great :)
357 2011-06-05 02:55:27 <zooko> So, have the ATI (? was it?) GPUs that worked best for BitCoin mining all sold out?
358 2011-06-05 02:56:28 <lfm> zooko the 5970 were best. they are no longer produced and pretty hard to find.
359 2011-06-05 02:57:03 <lfm> used ones are your best bet I expect
360 2011-06-05 02:58:22 <somecoiner> is bitcoin really a AMD secret project to massively increase sales :)
361 2011-06-05 02:59:20 <lfm> maybe, we don't know much about Satoshi or his work history or affiliations
362 2011-06-05 02:59:57 <somecoiner> when you walk into Best Buy, all you see in nvidia sitting on the shelves. They must be bummed... So MS decides the time is right for rape :)
363 2011-06-05 03:00:31 <lfm> mistake no 1. walking into best buy
364 2011-06-05 03:00:41 <johnnympereira5> ;;bc,stats
365 2011-06-05 03:00:43 <somecoiner> lol, true
366 2011-06-05 03:00:44 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128708 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 315 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 15 hours, 43 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 544914.57788870
367 2011-06-05 03:01:51 <lfm> somecoiner: I suspect best buy never has sold the 5970. its too much on the edge
368 2011-06-05 03:02:48 <somecoiner> correct, they have no sku for it
369 2011-06-05 03:05:52 <somecoiner> Tech question: does anyone know how the sha256 portion of the code is not susceptible to quantum attacks due to the merkle tree?
370 2011-06-05 03:10:16 <zooko> somecoiner: that is a strange question.
371 2011-06-05 03:10:24 <zooko> I mean, I'm not sure how to parse it.
372 2011-06-05 03:10:55 <somecoiner> Bitcoin protocol is not attackable by Quntum methods. Please explain why :)
373 2011-06-05 03:11:01 <gjs278> the difficulty will rise
374 2011-06-05 03:11:04 <somecoiner> ^Quantum
375 2011-06-05 03:11:06 <gjs278> to quantum levels
376 2011-06-05 03:11:15 <gjs278> so you won't be able to gen all of the coins
377 2011-06-05 03:11:18 <zooko> somecoiner: the ecdsa signatures are attackable by quantum methods.
378 2011-06-05 03:11:27 <somecoiner> thats what I thought
379 2011-06-05 03:12:15 <somecoiner> there is a statement gonig around that bitcoin is not crackable by quantum machines. I wanted to know why. Merkel hashes do not have this problem though, so is it sucure end to end?
380 2011-06-05 03:12:34 <somecoiner> time for a new keyboard... sorry
381 2011-06-05 03:13:16 <somecoiner> but the difficulty increasing, is not the answer i was looking for.
382 2011-06-05 03:13:24 <zooko> I guess the statement is wrong.
383 2011-06-05 03:13:39 <somecoiner> okay ,thanks
384 2011-06-05 03:13:51 <somecoiner> then we should all be very worried, right?
385 2011-06-05 03:14:31 <zooko> I'm not worried.
386 2011-06-05 03:14:50 <zooko> We could upgrade BitCoin in the future to use post-quantum digital signatures.
387 2011-06-05 03:14:59 <zooko> I bet we can do that before anyone can implement a big quantum computer. :-)