1 2011-06-10 00:00:05 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r3a7415146728 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/OTCWebsite/viewratingdetail.php: OTCWebsite: escape html in rating notes http://tinyurl.com/3swzgys
  2 2011-06-10 00:06:50 <luke-jr> nanotube: good idea
  3 2011-06-10 00:13:58 <gjs278> I htmlentities() myself
  4 2011-06-10 00:18:31 <lorph> is it possible to edit bitcoind so it takes less than 120 confirms to use mined bitcoins
  5 2011-06-10 00:19:05 <luke-jr> lorph: yes
  6 2011-06-10 00:19:09 <luke-jr> down to 100
  7 2011-06-10 00:20:09 <lorph> it won't go lower than 100?
  8 2011-06-10 00:21:19 <luke-jr> lorph: the network will reject it until it reaches 100
  9 2011-06-10 00:21:32 <gjs278> are you trying to pay your pool early
 10 2011-06-10 00:22:50 <lorph> yes, I'm wondering why it takes so long
 11 2011-06-10 00:23:38 <gjs278> well
 12 2011-06-10 00:23:43 <gjs278> as convenient as it can be
 13 2011-06-10 00:23:52 <gjs278> I wouldn't pay early trying to use that block
 14 2011-06-10 00:24:02 <gjs278> because an invalid could cost you over $1000 now
 15 2011-06-10 00:24:21 <lorph> what are the chances a block is invalid per confirm?
 16 2011-06-10 00:24:29 <gjs278> very low
 17 2011-06-10 00:27:07 <[Tycho]> May be 101 is better ? :)
 18 2011-06-10 00:28:53 <jgarzik> lorph: if there is a block chain reorg, anybody spending recently mined coins could simply have their coins disappear
 19 2011-06-10 00:28:57 <jgarzik> lorph: hence the safety delay
 20 2011-06-10 00:37:11 <xtalmath> who runs mt gox? please notify him that his megachart is a bit outdated, the top value is 20usd, while we passed that for a while, cutting of the graph
 21 2011-06-10 00:38:44 <yrralb> xtalmath: magicaltux, he is usually on bitcoin-otc
 22 2011-06-10 00:39:22 <MagicalTux> yep I know
 23 2011-06-10 00:39:25 <MagicalTux> fixing dwolla comes before
 24 2011-06-10 00:39:58 <picci> magicaltux!
 25 2011-06-10 00:40:22 <xtalmath> its just a small constant that needs to be changed (you could use a moving average and do *1.2 for eye candy)
 26 2011-06-10 00:40:50 <MagicalTux> xtalmath: it's a few small constants
 27 2011-06-10 00:40:56 <MagicalTux> and not documented, so a pain each time
 28 2011-06-10 00:41:06 <xtalmath> I am willing to fix it for a bitcoin or 2?
 29 2011-06-10 00:41:09 <xtalmath> :D
 30 2011-06-10 00:41:20 <xtalmath> I study physics, my math is ok
 31 2011-06-10 00:42:18 <xtalmath> other question: I can view graphs of the trading data, but id like to do some correlation tests, check effect of weekends etc on the value the market perceives...
 32 2011-06-10 00:42:42 <forexmasterja> I have a quick question what does the volume mean on the exchanges like bitcoinwatc ? is it the number of coins being traded ?
 33 2011-06-10 00:43:07 <[Tycho]> What do those green and red polygons mean on the megachart ? Doesn't looks like candles
 34 2011-06-10 00:43:13 <xtalmath> is it possible to get buys and sells data in csv or other format from a while back (as far as it gets) till now?
 35 2011-06-10 00:44:22 <xtalmath> I would like to do some HHT (hilbert huang transforms) and other investigations...
 36 2011-06-10 00:45:01 <xtalmath> If I can distill some usefull metrics I could let you in on inside knowledge
 37 2011-06-10 00:48:28 <jackmcbarn> is there a changelog for bitcoin's releases?
 38 2011-06-10 00:48:56 <andrew12> probably not :P
 39 2011-06-10 00:49:38 <gribble> Error: "bc,block" is not a valid command.
 40 2011-06-10 00:49:38 <xtalmath> ;;bc,block
 41 2011-06-10 00:49:54 <gjs278> ;;bc,blocks
 42 2011-06-10 00:49:55 <gribble> 129703
 43 2011-06-10 00:50:13 <xtalmath> jackmcbarn: you can use diff to spot the changes
 44 2011-06-10 00:50:22 <tippenein> anyone know why my pyopencl.pyo files would be missing from poclbm if I DO have the AMD APP SDK downloaded?
 45 2011-06-10 00:50:45 <gjs278> post error message
 46 2011-06-10 00:52:14 <tippenein> File "pyopencl__init__.pyo", line 3 etc etc ---- ImportError: DLL load failed
 47 2011-06-10 00:53:10 <tippenein> this happens when I directly try poclbm.exe from cmd line in windows 7
 48 2011-06-10 00:53:12 <gjs278> you're trying to use straight poclbm on windows
 49 2011-06-10 00:53:14 <gjs278> oh
 50 2011-06-10 00:53:15 <gjs278> well
 51 2011-06-10 00:53:28 <gjs278> skip it and just use poclbm-gui
 52 2011-06-10 00:54:06 <tippenein> thanks, i'll try it
 53 2011-06-10 00:54:20 <gjs278> it works well, plus you can do all of your miners in the one interface with fallback
 54 2011-06-10 00:55:41 <tippenein> says no opencl devices found and I should DL ATI stream sdk
 55 2011-06-10 00:55:51 <JFK911> do it
 56 2011-06-10 00:55:57 <tippenein> did
 57 2011-06-10 00:56:45 <gjs278> what version
 58 2011-06-10 00:56:46 <gjs278> also
 59 2011-06-10 00:56:48 <gjs278> are you on xp
 60 2011-06-10 00:56:57 <tippenein> windows 7
 61 2011-06-10 00:57:00 <gjs278> well
 62 2011-06-10 00:57:04 <gjs278> that's interesting
 63 2011-06-10 00:57:05 <gjs278> what's your card
 64 2011-06-10 00:57:44 <tippenein> ati 5770
 65 2011-06-10 00:58:03 <gjs278> ok
 66 2011-06-10 00:58:11 <gjs278> what version of the sdk did you install
 67 2011-06-10 00:58:17 <gjs278> also what driver version
 68 2011-06-10 00:58:23 <tippenein> i think 2.0. let me check
 69 2011-06-10 00:58:26 <gjs278> you need
 70 2011-06-10 00:58:28 <gjs278> 3.1
 71 2011-06-10 00:58:29 <gjs278> er
 72 2011-06-10 00:58:31 <gjs278> 2.1
 73 2011-06-10 00:58:33 <gjs278> 2.1 for sure
 74 2011-06-10 00:58:34 <gjs278> get that instead
 75 2011-06-10 00:59:03 <nanotube> luke-jr: :)
 76 2011-06-10 00:59:38 <gjs278> why htmlspecialcharacters the nickname
 77 2011-06-10 00:59:43 <gjs278> but not in the url as well
 78 2011-06-10 00:59:59 <nanotube> gjs278: is "htmlentities" any "better" than htmlspecialchars?
 79 2011-06-10 01:00:02 <tippenein> can't find a download of 2.1
 80 2011-06-10 01:00:08 <gjs278> I think special covers you
 81 2011-06-10 01:00:20 <gjs278> I always just entities, I learned that one first
 82 2011-06-10 01:00:35 <gjs278> thankfully you can't make your irc nick have " or <> in it though
 83 2011-06-10 01:00:45 <gjs278> so I guess nobody can really mess with the url or the actual nick on page
 84 2011-06-10 01:05:33 <gjs278> nanotube: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3623236/htmlspecialchars-vs-htmlentities-when-concerned-with-xss
 85 2011-06-10 01:05:39 <gjs278> that's my only real reason I guess
 86 2011-06-10 01:05:45 <gjs278> rare exploits involving weird charsets
 87 2011-06-10 01:06:01 <gjs278> that probably aren't even possible in an irc nick
 88 2011-06-10 01:09:33 <tippenein> so... just downloaded ati stream sdk 2.1 and restarted and still get no opencl with my 5770 card.. wtf?
 89 2011-06-10 01:09:45 <gjs278> well
 90 2011-06-10 01:09:48 <doc_m> hey guys, so is deepbit's predominance a problem, and could it get worse as they make more money?
 91 2011-06-10 01:09:51 <gjs278> that is interesting
 92 2011-06-10 01:10:12 <gjs278> tippenein: install the very very very latest ati-drivers 11.5.
 93 2011-06-10 01:10:16 <gjs278> check poclbm-gui
 94 2011-06-10 01:10:27 <gjs278> that's all I've ever had to do to get it working
 95 2011-06-10 01:10:28 <tippenein> i am trying it from poclbm-gui
 96 2011-06-10 01:10:36 <gjs278> because they bundle opencl now with the drivers
 97 2011-06-10 01:10:47 <gjs278> so just let them do their thing on the latest and see if poclbm-gui will see it then
 98 2011-06-10 01:12:41 <nanotube> gjs278: thanks :)
 99 2011-06-10 01:18:41 <tippenein> wow... still nothing after downloading 11.5
100 2011-06-10 01:18:50 <tippenein> drivers from ati
101 2011-06-10 01:19:04 <gjs278> lame
102 2011-06-10 01:19:21 <tippenein> i've had nothing but terrible luck with getting bitcoin miners started
103 2011-06-10 01:19:31 <tippenein> not so surprised that this went the same
104 2011-06-10 01:25:58 <tippenein> hell ass. Well.. g'night all.  thanks gjs278
105 2011-06-10 01:26:08 <gjs278> yeah
106 2011-06-10 01:26:18 <gjs278> maybe go for the uninstall all drivers, reinstall
107 2011-06-10 01:26:26 <gjs278> only thing I can think of from there
108 2011-06-10 01:47:10 <Bitcoindude> How I can use tor at freenode?
109 2011-06-10 01:48:06 <Bitcoindude> I already read https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tor  but when im trying to log in to server it says only SASL can join or something
110 2011-06-10 01:48:29 <gjs278> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tor#Add_SASL_support_to_your_mIRC_installation
111 2011-06-10 01:48:41 <Bitcoindude> I made everything right. expect didn't find  sasl.mrc
112 2011-06-10 01:48:57 <gjs278> you have to find them somewhere else
113 2011-06-10 01:48:58 <gjs278> they are a download
114 2011-06-10 01:49:14 <Bitcoindude> i downloaded but it wasnt a file
115 2011-06-10 01:49:34 <Bitcoindude> i didnt find it anywhere. it was only text and i made it just sasl.mrc file
116 2011-06-10 01:49:55 <gjs278> you need the dll too
117 2011-06-10 01:50:02 <Bitcoindude> i found the dll
118 2011-06-10 01:50:14 <Bitcoindude> but now .mrc
119 2011-06-10 01:50:17 <Bitcoindude> not*
120 2011-06-10 01:50:18 <gjs278> Load sasl.mrc script (Alt + R to open script editor, Ctrl + L to load file, browse to sasl.mrc, press OK or "save & exit").
121 2011-06-10 01:50:23 <gjs278> oh
122 2011-06-10 01:50:24 <gjs278> ok
123 2011-06-10 01:50:34 <gjs278> not sure where it would be but I can't imagine it would be hard to google
124 2011-06-10 01:50:43 <Bitcoindude> i made that. i mean i have to put sasl.mrc to mirc directory first
125 2011-06-10 01:51:08 <Bitcoindude> if u could help I would be glad :)
126 2011-06-10 01:51:40 <gjs278> uhh
127 2011-06-10 01:51:52 <gjs278> well go here, http://freenode.net/sasl/sasl.mrc
128 2011-06-10 01:51:55 <gjs278> file save as in firefox
129 2011-06-10 01:51:59 <gjs278> throw it in the dir of mirc
130 2011-06-10 01:52:03 <gjs278> and then do the load
131 2011-06-10 01:54:52 <Bitcoindude> ill try
132 2011-06-10 02:04:01 <Bitcoindude> naah it didn't worked
133 2011-06-10 02:04:25 <Bitcoindude> "gateway/tor-sasl/account (SASL access only)" when trying to connect freenode onion irc
134 2011-06-10 02:05:05 <Bitcoindude> don't know why
135 2011-06-10 02:05:36 <Bitcoindude> still when im trying to join random freenode server it keeps me disconnecting because the SASL. lol
136 2011-06-10 02:11:39 <gjs278> lame
137 2011-06-10 02:13:10 <Dayofswords> so, is this the bitcoin software dev channel?
138 2011-06-10 02:13:32 <gjs278> yes
139 2011-06-10 02:14:02 <Dayofswords> wel i think i may have ran into a bug or something on 0.3.22 that broke from 0.3.21
140 2011-06-10 02:15:16 <gjs278> what is it
141 2011-06-10 02:16:30 <Dayofswords> I was trying to set up solo mining for testnet just to feel falsy rich, and used these setting for 0.3.22 http://pastebin.com/sfsExcBX
142 2011-06-10 02:17:02 <gjs278> what happens
143 2011-06-10 02:17:27 <Dayofswords> after it downloaded all of testnet's blocks it went to using 100% of a CPU core and not responding to the miners tryin gto get work
144 2011-06-10 02:17:47 <Dayofswords> i downgraded to 0.3.21 and changed nothing at all and it worked completely fine
145 2011-06-10 02:23:08 <Dayofswords> I assume this is bad thing...
146 2011-06-10 02:23:41 <gmaxwell> Dayofswords: did you build the .22 yourself?
147 2011-06-10 02:24:27 <Dayofswords> no, it's the zipped copy from the website
148 2011-06-10 02:28:04 <Dayofswords> windows 32bit build btw
149 2011-06-10 02:32:31 <Dayofswords> If you want,I have a zipped up copy of .21 and .22 and phonix miner using phatk to show it's... uh.. brokenness
150 2011-06-10 02:32:51 <Dayofswords> all the settings there
151 2011-06-10 02:43:28 <Dayofswords> anyways.... yeah it's broken when using the same settings...
152 2011-06-10 03:16:48 <netxshare> would I have any issues with bitcoin 0.3.20.2 connecting to the network?
153 2011-06-10 03:42:32 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r65ee333 / src/net.cpp :
154 2011-06-10 03:42:33 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Merge pull request #304 from TheBlueMatt/cpufix
155 2011-06-10 03:43:17 <theymos> Are there any logs of this channel that have one page per day? I like to search for certain words. (The one I was using is now broken.)
156 2011-06-10 03:46:33 <lumos> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLl3aPAiloc
157 2011-06-10 03:48:20 <theymos> New BBE page: http://blockexplorer.com/q/reorglog . It has a list of the reorgs BBE has seen, which is useful for detecting tampering with the network. (I already mentioned this on the forum, but not on IRC.)
158 2011-06-10 03:49:27 <doc_m> thanks
159 2011-06-10 03:49:36 <doc_m> um wow 3 reorgs in the last 2 days
160 2011-06-10 03:49:37 <doc_m> wtf?
161 2011-06-10 03:50:19 <theymos> That is a bit higher than normal, but it's OK to have non-sequential blocks replaced from time to time.
162 2011-06-10 03:51:15 <doc_m> who ends up getting those blocks usually?
163 2011-06-10 03:51:21 <doc_m> can you put who was awarded them?
164 2011-06-10 03:51:39 <doc_m> I mean the ones that did the replacing,
165 2011-06-10 03:52:32 <theymos> The current blocks at the listed numbers are the blocks that the old blocks were replaced with.
166 2011-06-10 03:53:09 <theymos> These cases are just accidents caused by network latency -- they're not deliberate (probably).
167 2011-06-10 04:02:39 <mrh00d> has anyone made a BTC shopping cart for public use?
168 2011-06-10 04:02:58 <theymos> MyBitcoin and MtGox have shopping cart APIs.
169 2011-06-10 04:06:51 <Superbest> chan
170 2011-06-10 04:07:51 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r6de1326 / src/main.h : Lower minimum relay TX fee to 0.0001 (from 0.0005) BTC. - http://bit.ly/kKYZZ9
171 2011-06-10 04:15:15 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r6854a2a / doc/release-process.txt : Add minimal release process docs. - http://bit.ly/mJ5pLc
172 2011-06-10 04:18:38 <Dayofswords> hey, so, anyone here of the bug i may have found?
173 2011-06-10 04:19:14 <Dayofswords> tried to tell gmax but i think he was busy...
174 2011-06-10 04:26:35 <midnightmagic> what bug?
175 2011-06-10 04:29:17 <Dayofswords> (copy patse) wel i think i may have ran into a bug or something on 0.3.22 that broke from 0.3.21 . I was trying to set up solo mining for testnet just to feel false sense of being rich, and used these setting for 0.3.22 http://pastebin.com/sfsExcBX (.bat used to open bitcoin) after it downloaded all of testnet's blocks it went to using 100% of a CPU core and not responding to the miners trying to get work. I downgraded to 0.3.21 an
176 2011-06-10 04:30:44 <Dayofswords> I have a zip file that has both version and a opencl miner and tested it, it indeed didn't work
177 2011-06-10 04:30:59 <nathan7> Hi midnightmagic
178 2011-06-10 04:31:03 <xenland> ;;bc,gen 700000
179 2011-06-10 04:31:04 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 700000 Khps, given current difficulty of 567358.22457067 , is 1.24097939523 BTC per day and 0.0517074748014 BTC per hour.
180 2011-06-10 04:31:08 <Dayofswords> with the same exact settings, nothing chnaged
181 2011-06-10 04:32:32 <nathan7> hmm, fun
182 2011-06-10 04:32:38 <nathan7> nathan@armadillo:~$ python bitcoin.py
183 2011-06-10 04:32:39 <nathan7> :D
184 2011-06-10 04:34:49 <alystair> er
185 2011-06-10 04:34:51 <alystair> fail
186 2011-06-10 04:35:04 <alystair> I need to step away from mirc
187 2011-06-10 04:38:07 <Neskia> hmm.. so ive noticed something, my client 0.3.22 now forces me to pay a 0.01 fee, no matter what... I transfer 3 BTC its a fee, i transfer 0.4 btc, its a fee.. i transfer 10 BTC.. another fee.. even though ive set the tx to 0.005 then for the last two (0.4 and 1.2) i had it at 0.00
188 2011-06-10 04:38:44 <nathan7> alystair: True dat.
189 2011-06-10 04:39:19 <alystair> where does the fee go to?
190 2011-06-10 04:39:33 <Neskia> i'm assuming its going to the block cracker.
191 2011-06-10 04:39:35 <Neskia> :p
192 2011-06-10 04:39:36 <Neskia> the miners.
193 2011-06-10 04:41:55 <Neskia> like here was that 0.4BTC transaction, http://blockexplorer.com/tx/55eb7ea2c876a5aa634f057a7803974213a402d6639b58a1f6a2ddff87cf2e2a
194 2011-06-10 04:42:18 <alystair> so wait
195 2011-06-10 04:42:28 <alystair> not only does the person whom unlocks a block gets 50bc
196 2011-06-10 04:42:34 <Neskia> oh
197 2011-06-10 04:42:37 <Neskia> you're new here arnt you.
198 2011-06-10 04:42:38 <Neskia> :p
199 2011-06-10 04:43:02 <Neskia> the 50BTC is simply to increase the monitary value to ~21million
200 2011-06-10 04:43:09 <Neskia> the real reward is the transaction fee
201 2011-06-10 04:43:16 <Neskia> since the miners are the ones who are proofing the transactions.
202 2011-06-10 04:48:36 <anddam> hello
203 2011-06-10 04:52:03 <midnightmagic> nathan7: :-) lol it would amuse me greatly if, one day, those ? made you a millionaire.
204 2011-06-10 04:54:27 <anddam> a bitclionaire
205 2011-06-10 04:56:06 <doc_m> is there any DNS that connects to the .bit domain sites?
206 2011-06-10 04:57:00 <GarrettB> namecoin.us
207 2011-06-10 04:57:01 <GarrettB> iirc
208 2011-06-10 04:57:29 <doc_m> ah so its not a toplevel domain?
209 2011-06-10 04:57:34 <doc_m> SHAME!!
210 2011-06-10 04:57:48 <nathan7> doc_m: If we can get enough ISPs to set it up..
211 2011-06-10 04:58:06 <doc_m> you only really need a cople,
212 2011-06-10 04:58:09 <doc_m> couple even
213 2011-06-10 04:58:24 <doc_m> if you got the google DNS or opendns to support it for example
214 2011-06-10 04:58:28 <doc_m> or the tor guys
215 2011-06-10 04:58:37 <nathan7> Me to classmate: "Ohai there!" reply: "Die."
216 2011-06-10 04:58:41 <nathan7> that's not nice :(
217 2011-06-10 05:05:58 <aximilation> so what's the favorite mining pool you guys use?
218 2011-06-10 05:06:06 <aximilation> for those not soloing
219 2011-06-10 05:07:47 <MartianW> aximilation, pick a small one to prevent the 50% problem.
220 2011-06-10 05:07:56 <MartianW> I'm planning to use Eligius once I get my rig up.
221 2011-06-10 05:07:58 <aximilation> which 50% problem?
222 2011-06-10 05:07:58 <MartianW> (Still waiting on the card)
223 2011-06-10 05:08:02 <doc_m> eligius
224 2011-06-10 05:08:06 <doc_m> its the cheapest
225 2011-06-10 05:08:32 <doc_m> also its not deepbit which is kinda dominating the market (bad for bitcoin)
226 2011-06-10 05:08:33 <aximilation> I started with bitcoinpool, heard good things about slush pool, not so good about deepbit or btcguild
227 2011-06-10 05:08:46 <doc_m> slush doesn't do long polling
228 2011-06-10 05:08:51 <aximilation> define?
229 2011-06-10 05:09:44 <doc_m> it doesn't tell you immediately when a block is found so you can start on the next one
230 2011-06-10 05:09:48 <doc_m> so you wast e a lot of hashes
231 2011-06-10 05:09:52 <aximilation> ah
232 2011-06-10 05:10:02 <sipa> typically less than 1% gain, though
233 2011-06-10 05:10:05 <doc_m> and eligius just found a block
234 2011-06-10 05:10:13 <doc_m> depends on how fast you are
235 2011-06-10 05:10:18 <doc_m> it helps the really slow folks a lot
236 2011-06-10 05:10:28 <doc_m> as it takes me quite a while to work through a share
237 2011-06-10 05:10:33 <aximilation> doc_m: what did you mean by the 50% problem?
238 2011-06-10 05:10:55 <sipa> aximilation: someone who has 50% of the mining capacity of the network is theoretically able to do some attacks
239 2011-06-10 05:11:14 <sipa> well, not only theoretically, but so far, it hasn't happened
240 2011-06-10 05:11:17 <doc_m> so its in our best interest to not allow anyone to get anywhere near 50%
241 2011-06-10 05:11:24 <aximilation> Right now I'm doing a collective ~30Mh/s, waiting to grab a new card.
242 2011-06-10 05:11:30 <aximilation> ohh ok
243 2011-06-10 05:11:47 <aximilation> so if any given pool had 50% of the processing power they could do dirty stuff
244 2011-06-10 05:12:07 <lfm> It HAS happened on testnet
245 2011-06-10 05:12:09 <doc_m> also the kind of cash that deepbit's operators are pulling right now means they could really create some prety incredible hashing speed if they wanted
246 2011-06-10 05:12:49 <aximilation> My goal is to make some hardware pay for itself and start building more machines with the profits
247 2011-06-10 05:13:12 <lfm> aximilation: have fun
248 2011-06-10 05:13:17 <aximilation> potentially making a private pool of my own machines if things remain profitable :D
249 2011-06-10 05:13:28 <aximilation> how have you guys done so far?
250 2011-06-10 05:13:45 <lfm> aximilation: note that we cant really promise you it will remain profitable
251 2011-06-10 05:13:52 <aximilation> of cource
252 2011-06-10 05:14:01 <aximilation> *course
253 2011-06-10 05:17:41 <sipa> jgarzik: is select() available on all platforms?
254 2011-06-10 05:18:00 <lfm> aximilation: or dont want to publicly say how much for any number of reasons
255 2011-06-10 05:18:24 <aximilation> fair enough :P
256 2011-06-10 05:23:34 <sipa> jgarzik: nvm, didn't read your comment completely, it seems
257 2011-06-10 05:32:37 <da2ce7> forum.bitcoin.org is really slow!
258 2011-06-10 05:33:00 <lfm> aximilation: not a lot no
259 2011-06-10 05:44:33 <lfm> I figure if difficulty goes up another factor of ten it will no longer be profitable for most GPUs
260 2011-06-10 05:44:58 <lfm> assuming price stays near current
261 2011-06-10 05:47:02 <mtrlt> ?
262 2011-06-10 05:47:13 <mtrlt> it will still have a 100% profit margin for me at least
263 2011-06-10 05:47:20 <mtrlt> even if difficulty goes up tenfold
264 2011-06-10 05:47:45 <lfm> what gpu do you use?
265 2011-06-10 05:48:10 <mtrlt> 4*6990 and one 5850
266 2011-06-10 05:48:39 <mtrlt> and actually one BTC costs me roughly $1 to make.
267 2011-06-10 05:48:55 <lfm> mmm interesting. Im using a 5770 for the basis of my calc
268 2011-06-10 05:48:56 <mtrlt> so difficulty can go up 30 times before it's not profitable at all any more
269 2011-06-10 05:49:09 <mtrlt> what electricity price are you using?
270 2011-06-10 05:49:46 <mtrlt> hm i made an error
271 2011-06-10 05:49:50 <lfm> its still fairly cheap here even tho it almost doubled this year. $0.115/kwh
272 2011-06-10 05:50:01 <mtrlt> one bitcoin costs me $1.4 to make
273 2011-06-10 05:50:12 <mtrlt> i'm using $0.18 / kWh
274 2011-06-10 05:50:17 <mtrlt> which is my rate
275 2011-06-10 05:51:04 <lfm> ya I think its costing me $2.95/BTC (theoreticcly)
276 2011-06-10 05:51:19 <mtrlt> in electricity?
277 2011-06-10 05:51:22 <mtrlt> that's quite high
278 2011-06-10 05:51:23 <lfm> ya
279 2011-06-10 05:51:30 <mtrlt> but expected for a 5770 :p
280 2011-06-10 05:51:45 <lfm> the 5770 isnt as efficient so ...
281 2011-06-10 05:51:54 <mtrlt> yep
282 2011-06-10 05:52:27 <lfm> still a pretty good profit margin but I spoze I will drop out before you that way
283 2011-06-10 05:52:39 <mtrlt> yea
284 2011-06-10 05:52:47 <mtrlt> i don't anticipate dropping out for half a year
285 2011-06-10 05:53:37 <lfm> reasonable assuming it doesnt all crash before that
286 2011-06-10 05:54:03 <mtrlt> yep
287 2011-06-10 05:55:05 <edcba> about 0.12???/kW/h
288 2011-06-10 05:55:11 <lfm> edcba: ? ya, power prices vary a lot
289 2011-06-10 05:55:32 <lfm> from place to place
290 2011-06-10 05:55:45 <mtrlt> edcba: around the same as me, 0.125??? :)
291 2011-06-10 05:55:54 <mtrlt> i'm not sure what kinda power i am running on, tho.
292 2011-06-10 05:56:13 <lfm> ours is mostly coal
293 2011-06-10 05:56:17 <mtrlt> would go for 100% nuclear&hydro if possible but figuring that out isn't high on my priority list :p
294 2011-06-10 06:00:16 <edcba> hmm i have some other options too it seems
295 2011-06-10 06:00:48 <lfm> Ya I think I could get wind power for a small premium
296 2011-06-10 06:01:19 <edcba> ie you could have 0.0864???/kWh
297 2011-06-10 06:01:33 <edcba> but you can only mine during nights etc
298 2011-06-10 06:01:48 <lfm> oh thatd be nice
299 2011-06-10 06:02:15 <edcba> otherwise it's 0.1275???/kWh
300 2011-06-10 06:02:38 <jgarzik> da2ce7: the forum is slow because it's full of crap :)
301 2011-06-10 06:02:42 <lfm> They might do that here too for industrial customers only tho
302 2011-06-10 06:05:19 <alont> Hello
303 2011-06-10 06:05:33 <lfm> hi
304 2011-06-10 06:05:45 <alont> I'm wondering if anyone can be of assistance
305 2011-06-10 06:05:58 <gjs278> yes
306 2011-06-10 06:06:00 <gjs278> what  isit
307 2011-06-10 06:06:06 <alont> I've been trying to start generating bitcoins using my gpu for quite a while now
308 2011-06-10 06:06:21 <alont> Just cant get it to work
309 2011-06-10 06:06:25 <gjs278> ok
310 2011-06-10 06:06:29 <gjs278> what program are you using
311 2011-06-10 06:06:35 <gjs278> what card do you have
312 2011-06-10 06:06:38 <gjs278> what os are you on
313 2011-06-10 06:06:39 <alont> GUIMiner
314 2011-06-10 06:06:46 <alont> using a GTX 260
315 2011-06-10 06:06:51 <alont> and windows 7
316 2011-06-10 06:06:54 <gjs278> ok
317 2011-06-10 06:07:00 <gjs278> what pool are you in
318 2011-06-10 06:07:08 <alont> www.bitcoins.lc
319 2011-06-10 06:07:26 <gjs278> is there an option for that pool in the gui or is it a custom
320 2011-06-10 06:07:36 <alont> its custom
321 2011-06-10 06:07:53 <gjs278> do you see your GTX 260 in the program's options
322 2011-06-10 06:07:57 <gjs278> listed as a device
323 2011-06-10 06:08:06 <alont> yes, its my only option
324 2011-06-10 06:08:09 <gjs278> ok
325 2011-06-10 06:08:17 <gjs278> so you're just having issues connecting then
326 2011-06-10 06:08:23 <alont> yep
327 2011-06-10 06:08:24 <alont> this is what im getting
328 2011-06-10 06:08:36 <alont> Listener for "PC": 10/06/2011 11:03:35, Problems communicating with bitcoin RPC
329 2011-06-10 06:08:49 <alont> Opened the necessary port
330 2011-06-10 06:08:56 <alont> shut down my firewalls
331 2011-06-10 06:09:05 <alont> still nada
332 2011-06-10 06:09:11 <gjs278> can you screenshot your settings
333 2011-06-10 06:09:15 <gjs278> so I can see
334 2011-06-10 06:09:21 <gjs278> you may just want to try another pool
335 2011-06-10 06:09:29 <gjs278> but its most likely your setup
336 2011-06-10 06:09:41 <alont> sure
337 2011-06-10 06:09:42 <alont> just a sec
338 2011-06-10 06:15:26 <netxshare> anyone seen poclbm throw this error before ( http://www.privatepaste.com/c8f9c19851 )
339 2011-06-10 06:15:37 <gjs278> yes
340 2011-06-10 06:15:39 <gjs278> I have
341 2011-06-10 06:15:46 <netxshare> any idea what causes it?
342 2011-06-10 06:15:57 <gjs278> your pool skipped a beat it my guess
343 2011-06-10 06:16:12 <gjs278> I've had it happen before but it happened to all miners at the exact same time
344 2011-06-10 06:17:06 <netxshare> that's what I figured
345 2011-06-10 06:19:25 <yoR> How much have the current kernels (ArtForz/Diablo, poclbm and phatk) been optimized? I've heard people say there is still room for improvement
346 2011-06-10 06:20:06 <sipa> a few % at most
347 2011-06-10 06:20:19 <sipa> can be gained still
348 2011-06-10 06:20:42 <yoR> Any idea on which front?
349 2011-06-10 06:21:34 <gjs278> stabalizing the ati drivers so we can overclock more
350 2011-06-10 06:28:40 <netxshare> hrm
351 2011-06-10 06:28:51 <netxshare> does -datadir=dir not allow me to run more then one copy of bitcoin
352 2011-06-10 06:28:57 <netxshare> the default client that is
353 2011-06-10 06:29:34 <gjs278> well
354 2011-06-10 06:29:39 <gjs278> you get one client per dir
355 2011-06-10 06:29:44 <gjs278> you can specify a different one and do it there
356 2011-06-10 06:30:08 <netxshare> it seems that it finds the default %appdata%Bitcoin
357 2011-06-10 06:30:17 <netxshare> and does not take -datadir as an option
358 2011-06-10 06:30:30 <netxshare> tho
359 2011-06-10 06:30:47 <netxshare> it does write to the debug log in the -datadir
360 2011-06-10 06:30:48 <netxshare> so it must be working
361 2011-06-10 06:46:35 <doc_m> hey guys, I have a question about a possible attack
362 2011-06-10 06:47:24 <gjs278> ok
363 2011-06-10 06:47:26 <gjs278> name it
364 2011-06-10 06:47:55 <doc_m> if block a was found at 10:00 and then block b was found at 10:10, but was timestamped as 11:00, then when block c is found at 10:17, assuming C's miner has the correct time, would this make his block be rejected
365 2011-06-10 06:48:47 <doc_m> assuming the blocks before a happened fairly quickly
366 2011-06-10 06:49:04 <doc_m> Ah wait no
367 2011-06-10 06:49:08 <doc_m> never mind
368 2011-06-10 06:49:11 <doc_m> thanks anyway
369 2011-06-10 06:49:11 <gjs278> done
370 2011-06-10 06:49:19 <doc_m> Just needed a sounding board I guess
371 2011-06-10 06:49:38 <Wayno> Hello i have a problem communicating via the bitcoin.inc.php file to bitcoind, is this a good place to ask for help?
372 2011-06-10 06:49:45 <gjs278> yes
373 2011-06-10 06:49:50 <gjs278> what is the problem
374 2011-06-10 06:50:02 <mologie> there is a bitcoin php lib?
375 2011-06-10 06:50:02 <Wayno> when i do $transactions[$i]["category"]
376 2011-06-10 06:50:06 <Wayno> it returns nothing
377 2011-06-10 06:50:20 <gjs278> print_r($transactions)
378 2011-06-10 06:50:24 <gjs278> and let me know if that even has anything
379 2011-06-10 06:50:44 <Wayno> wow that worked
380 2011-06-10 06:50:50 <gjs278> alright
381 2011-06-10 06:50:55 <gjs278> now take it a step further
382 2011-06-10 06:51:01 <gjs278> print_r($transactions[$i])
383 2011-06-10 06:51:01 <Wayno> thank u very much
384 2011-06-10 06:52:28 <Wayno> print_r($transactions[$i]) doesnt print anything
385 2011-06-10 06:53:19 <doc_m> for bitcoin web apps, django or php?
386 2011-06-10 06:53:22 <gjs278> php
387 2011-06-10 06:53:42 <gjs278> yeah Wayno just read the print_r) for $transactions and figure out the array from there
388 2011-06-10 06:54:33 <Wayno> given me 3 arrays
389 2011-06-10 06:55:18 <gjs278> ok
390 2011-06-10 06:55:26 <gjs278> if they're not holding sensitive data pastebin it
391 2011-06-10 06:55:31 <gjs278> and I'll tell you how to read further down
392 2011-06-10 06:55:36 <gjs278> although you may just want to do
393 2011-06-10 06:55:44 <gjs278> foreach($transactions as $transaction) {
394 2011-06-10 06:55:52 <gjs278> and then print_r($transaction) in that loop
395 2011-06-10 06:55:55 <gjs278> and see what you have there
396 2011-06-10 06:55:59 <gjs278> that may get you pretty close
397 2011-06-10 06:56:02 <cyberdo> gjs278: I wouldn't recommend PHP for anyhing, really
398 2011-06-10 06:56:11 <cyberdo> err... doc_m
399 2011-06-10 06:56:11 <gjs278> hey now
400 2011-06-10 06:56:27 <gjs278> I figured he was just asking what we're talking about
401 2011-06-10 06:57:04 <cyberdo> oh.. my bad
402 2011-06-10 06:57:10 <doc_m> nah I was asking for advice
403 2011-06-10 06:57:18 <doc_m> I could tell you were talking php
404 2011-06-10 06:58:03 <gjs278> goddamn that lightning is close to my house
405 2011-06-10 06:58:08 <gjs278> my power is going to go out
406 2011-06-10 06:58:21 <gjs278> I lost 7 hours  ofmining last night
407 2011-06-10 07:00:53 <Wayno> all my transactions have address except the block that was generated
408 2011-06-10 07:01:40 <Wayno> i would just use the address that is on the wallet correct?
409 2011-06-10 07:01:45 <gjs278> yeah
410 2011-06-10 07:02:10 <Wayno> k guess this script is out of date then
411 2011-06-10 07:02:18 <Wayno> time to recode it
412 2011-06-10 07:02:37 <Wayno> thanks gjs278
413 2011-06-10 07:02:41 <gjs278> no problem
414 2011-06-10 07:10:40 <yoR> Has anybody tried to convert Diablo's kernel to Python (Phoenix?) It should be a fun project to pick up next week
415 2011-06-10 07:11:03 <yoR> The buildup looks similair enough, shouldn't be too much work
416 2011-06-10 07:11:13 <sipa> Diablo is Java, and its kernel is OpenCL
417 2011-06-10 07:11:46 <yoR> I know, the kernel can just be copied, there is a little bit of Python code to write (translate from Java)
418 2011-06-10 07:11:56 <sipa> Diablo is based on poclbm
419 2011-06-10 07:12:02 <sipa> poclbm in in python
420 2011-06-10 07:12:29 <sipa> and they all use ArtForz's kernel nowadays
421 2011-06-10 07:12:39 <yoR> There are some differences between Diablo's kernel als poclbm I think, Diablo's is a bit more configurable
422 2011-06-10 07:12:49 <sipa> yes, it was tweaked a bit
423 2011-06-10 07:13:29 <yoR> Having those abilities available in phoenix would be fun I think
424 2011-06-10 07:13:45 <yoR> Nice project to learn a bit of Python and some OpenCL
425 2011-06-10 07:15:26 <yoR> Diablo has highest speeds with the -v 19 flag, those vectors can't be used in phatk/poclbm yet
426 2011-06-10 07:15:32 <yoR> (for some cards)
427 2011-06-10 07:21:35 <doc_m> diablo buggs out sometimes too
428 2011-06-10 07:26:44 <anarchyx> !seen artforz
429 2011-06-10 07:27:05 <anarchyx> ;;bc help
430 2011-06-10 07:27:05 <gribble> Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
431 2011-06-10 07:27:13 <anarchyx> ;;seen artforz
432 2011-06-10 07:27:16 <gribble> artforz was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 days, 15 hours, 34 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <ArtForz> 0-outputs are legal
433 2011-06-10 07:27:37 <netxshare> doc_m: I noticed that lately too, my machine would drop 400mh
434 2011-06-10 07:46:24 <x5x> http://www.itproportal.com/2011/06/09/bitcoin-picking-up-value-more-than-us-dollars-british-pounds
435 2011-06-10 07:46:32 <x5x> The virtual currency is the brainchild of Jeff Garzik, known for his hacking skills as well as the inventor of Bitcoin.
436 2011-06-10 07:46:33 <x5x> Read more: http://www.itproportal.com/2011/06/09/bitcoin-picking-up-value-more-than-us-dollars-british-pounds/#ixzz1OrgsxKeh
437 2011-06-10 07:47:39 <sipa> all respect for jgarzik, but they're giving him a bit too much credit here :S
438 2011-06-10 07:49:15 <eps1> the whole "more valuable than the pound or dollar" thing is meaningless isn't it?
439 2011-06-10 07:49:27 <eps1> bitcoins are like gold, they are worth what they are worth
440 2011-06-10 07:49:37 <doc_m> everything is like that
441 2011-06-10 07:49:51 <x5x> yea i was just pointing to that creator sentence
442 2011-06-10 07:49:58 <wumpus> jgarzik is like the god of bitcoin\n913005
443 2011-06-10 07:50:30 <x5x> im gonna start a jgarzik is satoshi campaign off of that
444 2011-06-10 07:50:58 <wumpus> his hacker skills are legendary even in the far east :P
445 2011-06-10 07:51:07 <eps1> how could you ever prove he is or isn't satoshi?
446 2011-06-10 07:51:17 <wumpus> you can't
447 2011-06-10 07:51:19 <x5x> eps1, uh obviously, the news said he is
448 2011-06-10 07:51:23 <x5x> so it must be true
449 2011-06-10 07:51:24 <sipa> he hacks faster than his shadow!
450 2011-06-10 07:51:27 <wumpus> so he is him
451 2011-06-10 07:51:32 <wumpus> sorry, Him
452 2011-06-10 08:46:22 <BostX> hi all
453 2011-06-10 08:47:48 <BostX> a simple idea, instead of crunching numbers for its own sake, why not to search for - say - prime numbers?
454 2011-06-10 08:48:37 <LameArse> hey can you tell me which graphics card offers the best bang for buck for mining with?
455 2011-06-10 08:48:50 <BostX> im pretty sure im not the 1st one thinking this way but I couldnt find much on google about it
456 2011-06-10 08:49:11 <Wuked> LameArse: Depnds what your budget is
457 2011-06-10 08:49:17 <Wuked> the ATI 5850 is good value
458 2011-06-10 08:49:19 <BostX> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
459 2011-06-10 08:49:21 <Wuked> if you want multiple cards
460 2011-06-10 08:49:36 <Wuked> if your motherboard and psu can do it
461 2011-06-10 08:49:45 <Wuked> then you can get 3 of them ( or even 4) in one machine
462 2011-06-10 08:49:57 <Wuked> they are about ???100 each
463 2011-06-10 08:50:01 <Wuked> so maybe $140
464 2011-06-10 08:50:03 <LameArse> do the cards have to be identical?
465 2011-06-10 08:50:16 <Wuked> and get around 300Mh/Sec with a bit of clocking
466 2011-06-10 08:50:25 <Wuked> no
467 2011-06-10 08:51:38 <Wuked> what's your budget ?
468 2011-06-10 08:51:43 <Wuked> and are you only looking to buy 1 card?
469 2011-06-10 08:51:48 <Wuked> or are you building an entire rig
470 2011-06-10 08:52:35 <ersi> BostX: Yeah, you're not the first one. I don't even think you're the thousandieth either
471 2011-06-10 08:53:17 <BostX> ersi, so is there an wiki article about it?
472 2011-06-10 08:53:22 <ersi> No
473 2011-06-10 08:53:51 <BostX> ersi, you see! :)
474 2011-06-10 08:54:38 <BostX> ersi,  i could try to make a little contribution :)
475 2011-06-10 08:54:46 <LameArse> the budget for this month is 200GBP
476 2011-06-10 08:55:00 <LameArse> I can spend the same again next month
477 2011-06-10 08:56:34 <LameArse> one card for now was my thought
478 2011-06-10 08:56:45 <LameArse> I have a motherboard and powersupply that can run 4 already
479 2011-06-10 08:56:46 <Wuked> how many cards can your computer take ?
480 2011-06-10 08:56:51 <LameArse> I have a motherboard and powersupply that can run 4 already
481 2011-06-10 08:56:59 <Wuked> can you actually fit 4 in your pc though ?
482 2011-06-10 08:57:03 <LameArse> yeah
483 2011-06-10 08:57:10 <Wuked> is your case good enough ?
484 2011-06-10 08:57:14 <LameArse> yeah
485 2011-06-10 08:57:18 <Wuked> not many are :)
486 2011-06-10 08:57:27 <Wuked> and for 4
487 2011-06-10 08:57:31 <xelister> the war has started
488 2011-06-10 08:57:35 <Wuked> you'll need a PSU of maybe 1500W
489 2011-06-10 08:57:41 <xelister> developer are being arrested for developing software
490 2011-06-10 08:57:52 <elly> where?
491 2011-06-10 08:57:55 <xelister> surprisingly it started in France, not in usafags land
492 2011-06-10 08:58:06 <Wuked> maybe a bit less depending on the cards
493 2011-06-10 08:58:24 <elly> xelister: link?
494 2011-06-10 08:58:34 <xelister> it is discussed in #freenet . link is in FR
495 2011-06-10 08:58:42 <xelister> http://www.linformaticien.com/actualites/id/20871/logiciel-freezer-6-mois-de-prison-avec-sursis-pour-l-auteur.aspx in french
496 2011-06-10 08:59:39 <xelister> <nextgens> basically, a 20y old student wrote a software to capture streamed music from deezer 2y ago
497 2011-06-10 08:59:40 <xelister> <nextgens> and now he's to pay 15k EUR and spend 6months in jail
498 2011-06-10 08:59:42 <xelister> <nextgens> thanks to DADVSI
499 2011-06-10 08:59:43 <xelister> <nextgens> "incitation du public ?? lusage dun logiciel manifestement destin?? ?? la mise ?? disposition non autoris??e dSuvres prot??g??es"
500 2011-06-10 08:59:45 <xelister> <nextgens> incitating people to use a software which is helping to share copyrighted work
501 2011-06-10 09:00:05 <xelister> when bitcoin developers will start to be arrested.
502 2011-06-10 09:00:23 <jgarzik> woah
503 2011-06-10 09:00:25 <jgarzik> I invented bitcoin?
504 2011-06-10 09:00:26 <jeremias> lol, i bet they try to jail satoshi
505 2011-06-10 09:00:29 <Wuked> LameArse:  if it's just for bitmining, then I'd start off with 2x http://overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-259-SP for ???200
506 2011-06-10 09:00:30 <xelister> jeremias: =)
507 2011-06-10 09:00:56 <Gekz> xelister: did you just use French law to argue against being an American?
508 2011-06-10 09:01:04 <Gekz> It's been a while since I've seen such fallacy at work
509 2011-06-10 09:01:19 <lfm> and copyright law to argue about digital currency?
510 2011-06-10 09:01:30 <Gekz> yeah, lol
511 2011-06-10 09:01:32 <xelister> satoshi = SipA naThan uukgOblin nameleSs| natHan7 grIbble ?  :P :P
512 2011-06-10 09:02:05 <lfm> xelister: oh no you gave away the secret
513 2011-06-10 09:02:07 <xelister> Gekz: this law hopefully will motivate Fr people to emigrate (or vote)
514 2011-06-10 09:03:01 <elly> emigrate to where?
515 2011-06-10 09:03:04 <xelister> Gekz: USA is already arresting people for stupid shit too. Although in USA mostly companies where targeted about developing `"illegal"` software. But usa sucks for say sentencing mom to pay 200,000 usd for downloading few stupid songs.
516 2011-06-10 09:03:22 <lfm> xelister: it will motivate open source people to use false names
517 2011-06-10 09:03:26 <xelister> Fr seem to be "leader" though in arresting developers it would seem.
518 2011-06-10 09:03:42 <xelister> elly: dunno. Many other contries out there.
519 2011-06-10 09:04:23 <xelister> although. Actually USA ordeal with geohot is alos arresting developer for developing, right?
520 2011-06-10 09:04:37 <elly> xelister: I mean, I am honestly curious if there is a place that has sensible laws about this :P
521 2011-06-10 09:04:40 <elly> no, that was a civil case
522 2011-06-10 09:04:47 <xelister> elly: indeed.
523 2011-06-10 09:04:49 <elly> as far as I know geohot was never arrested, just sued
524 2011-06-10 09:05:29 <lfm> almost rather go to jail than pay a record company a few thousands
525 2011-06-10 09:05:49 <xelister> wait how can a civil sue end in jailtime
526 2011-06-10 09:05:54 <elly> it doesn't
527 2011-06-10 09:06:08 <lfm> just sayin
528 2011-06-10 09:06:12 <xelister> oh
529 2011-06-10 09:06:13 <elly> afaik geohot's not in jail? he settled with Sony and is free to go
530 2011-06-10 09:06:21 <xelister> elly: and then Sony got fucked
531 2011-06-10 09:06:24 <xelister> trolololo  lololo lolol
532 2011-06-10 09:06:27 <elly> yes
533 2011-06-10 09:06:33 <xelister> I never buying shit from sony in my fucking live
534 2011-06-10 09:06:35 <xelister> lif
535 2011-06-10 09:06:36 <xelister> life.
536 2011-06-10 09:06:50 <lfm> its hard to avoid tho sometimes
537 2011-06-10 09:07:48 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
538 2011-06-10 09:07:49 <gribble> 129801
539 2011-06-10 09:08:02 <lfm> like watch out for sony movies and music on the radio
540 2011-06-10 09:08:03 <LameArse> thank  you folks :)
541 2011-06-10 09:14:32 <yoR> Having two different videocards isn't a problem right?
542 2011-06-10 09:15:13 <xelister> yoR: it usually works, best of same series e.g. 5xxx
543 2011-06-10 09:15:17 <xelister> or 6xxx
544 2011-06-10 09:15:18 <xelister> not mix them
545 2011-06-10 09:49:45 <M4v3R> Hi, any devs here? :)
546 2011-06-10 09:50:08 <yoR> What kind of dev? I'm a dev but I've hardly done anything yet for bitcoin
547 2011-06-10 09:50:26 <M4v3R> I'd like some people that know Bitcoin protocol in depth
548 2011-06-10 09:50:31 <edcba> ask
549 2011-06-10 09:50:54 <M4v3R> I want to track a fraudulent user of our market
550 2011-06-10 09:51:28 <M4v3R> Is there a way to know for example if the block was generated by a pool?
551 2011-06-10 09:51:39 <M4v3R> Looking at the address for receiving generated BTC
552 2011-06-10 09:51:51 <M4v3R> Do pools use fixed addresses for that
553 2011-06-10 09:52:06 <khalahan> M4v3R, a pool may include a lot of his own payment in his block, but this is not a waranty
554 2011-06-10 09:52:31 <M4v3R> http://blockexplorer.com/address/17EAxSU7zkoqfZF3ppfo2SufxQBPeiVw6X
555 2011-06-10 09:52:40 <M4v3R> I have a guy with this address
556 2011-06-10 09:52:45 <M4v3R> He scammed a few guys
557 2011-06-10 09:52:55 <M4v3R> And has all BTCs from the transactions here
558 2011-06-10 09:53:09 <M4v3R> Didn't withdraw anything yet
559 2011-06-10 09:53:24 <M4v3R> Though if he will, there might be a way to trace him to the exchange he uses
560 2011-06-10 09:55:01 <M4v3R> I just want to know if it's possible/feasible
561 2011-06-10 09:55:20 <doublec> M4v3R: join all the pools and mine
562 2011-06-10 09:55:33 <doublec> M4v3R: look at the block generated, and see what addresses are in it
563 2011-06-10 09:55:53 <doublec> M4v3R: by which I mean what addresses were sent coins from that block
564 2011-06-10 09:56:09 <doublec> M4v3R: and see if the same addresses receive payment from the blocks you know were generated by that pool
565 2011-06-10 09:56:22 <doublec> M4v3R: you can use this to identify which pool got the block
566 2011-06-10 09:56:32 <M4v3R> Ok, thanks
567 2011-06-10 09:56:41 <doublec> M4v3R: actually you don't need to join the pools, you can look up their stats
568 2011-06-10 09:56:54 <doublec> pity block explorer doesn't allow annotations
569 2011-06-10 09:56:58 <doublec> this could be crowd sourced
570 2011-06-10 09:57:19 <M4v3R> From what I see deepbit use different address
571 2011-06-10 09:57:21 <M4v3R> Every time
572 2011-06-10 09:57:37 <doublec> yes, you have to see what addresses are paid originating from that generated address
573 2011-06-10 09:57:40 <M4v3R> Though this could be checked by using the timestamps
574 2011-06-10 09:58:01 <doublec> although it won't work if the pool pays out from other addresses
575 2011-06-10 09:58:05 <doublec> which is probably likely
576 2011-06-10 09:58:16 <doublec> luke-jr's pool is easy to identify
577 2011-06-10 09:58:33 <M4v3R> Because it pays generation btcs to all?
578 2011-06-10 09:58:36 <doublec> I doubt (and would hope) the pool owner doesn't give out information though
579 2011-06-10 09:58:39 <doublec> even if you know the pool
580 2011-06-10 09:58:44 <doublec> M4v3R: yes
581 2011-06-10 10:00:18 <M4v3R> There are only few exchanges out there
582 2011-06-10 10:00:20 <xelister> So let's sum up. jGarzik is paid by the US government, Gavin Andresen is on CIA's paycheck.
583 2011-06-10 10:00:23 <xelister> what do you think about this?
584 2011-06-10 10:00:32 <M4v3R> There could be a way to connect them
585 2011-06-10 10:00:56 <M4v3R> And use their data to find fraudulent ppl
586 2011-06-10 10:01:03 <iera> xelister: doesnt matter as long as other people look at the release code
587 2011-06-10 10:01:35 <xelister> iera: how about things that are NOT included
588 2011-06-10 10:01:49 <doublec> like?
589 2011-06-10 10:01:49 <xelister> jgarzik did expressed dislike for freenet technology
590 2011-06-10 10:01:55 <xelister> that would allow bitcoin to be fully unbannable
591 2011-06-10 10:01:59 <iera> ok yeah
592 2011-06-10 10:02:04 <iera> then just fork it
593 2011-06-10 10:02:07 <xelister> todays bitcoin's protocoll is trivially blockable
594 2011-06-10 10:02:18 <xelister> iera: power is in number of people supporting given idea
595 2011-06-10 10:02:21 <iera> no, just run it with tor hidden services, done
596 2011-06-10 10:02:28 <xelister> TOR works indeed
597 2011-06-10 10:02:40 <iera> i dont think that will become a problem
598 2011-06-10 10:02:46 <xelister> but tor is not perfect, and is successfully blockable. also blockchain downloads would work muvh better and faster on freenet
599 2011-06-10 10:03:02 <iera> right, the problem is probably to connect the nodes inbetween
600 2011-06-10 10:03:11 <xelister> (actually ideally one would use TOR for quick new blocks updates for minining if he mines, and freenet for blockchain and txes for normal payments use)
601 2011-06-10 10:03:16 <iera> but if you just do that nobody can stop you
602 2011-06-10 10:03:35 <xelister> iera: if there is not enought by-default set up security, then most users get cought
603 2011-06-10 10:03:37 <xelister> which is bad for them
604 2011-06-10 10:03:44 <xelister> as well for other users since shriking userbase
605 2011-06-10 10:04:04 <iera> right, but it would be imho more important to run mix-txs per default
606 2011-06-10 10:04:13 <xelister> all is needed
607 2011-06-10 10:04:23 <xelister> secure-transport ( #btcfn works on that ) and mix
608 2011-06-10 10:04:30 <xelister> AND to have it by default
609 2011-06-10 10:04:33 <iera> hm yeah
610 2011-06-10 10:05:10 <xelister> if the DEVELOPERS basically all are  against anti-censorship  and are loving government etc, how do you think it will end
611 2011-06-10 10:05:16 <xelister> *usafags government
612 2011-06-10 10:06:09 <xelister> who will then use bitcoin, 1 in 100 geekiest of geeks that know how to run bitcoin AND setup freenet&tor AND how to connect it all
613 2011-06-10 10:06:15 <xelister> *use bitcoin securly
614 2011-06-10 10:06:35 <M4v3R> Wow, I think I thought out a way to get rid of Paypal chargebacks
615 2011-06-10 10:06:42 <M4v3R> When selling BTC
616 2011-06-10 10:06:56 <echelon> M4v3R, oh?
617 2011-06-10 10:07:07 <iera> xelister: right, im totally for it, but over time the standard client will be less important, so the problem will solve itself
618 2011-06-10 10:07:07 <M4v3R> I've read on one forum
619 2011-06-10 10:07:25 <iera> as long as the protocol wont break between clients
620 2011-06-10 10:07:31 <xelister> iera: how about having non-usafags developers
621 2011-06-10 10:07:35 <M4v3R> That a guy which sold digital goods always asked their customers to send an email confirmation that he received them
622 2011-06-10 10:07:36 <xelister> like right away
623 2011-06-10 10:07:48 <M4v3R> Which would serve a proof for CC company / Paypal
624 2011-06-10 10:07:53 <iera> get some :)
625 2011-06-10 10:08:16 <M4v3R> It's difficult in a peer to peer environment, but we on BitMarket.eu could act as an escrow for this
626 2011-06-10 10:08:21 <xelister> developers, admins etc, all should be politically and geographically distributed fairly imo
627 2011-06-10 10:08:31 <M4v3R> 1. Buyer sends the money
628 2011-06-10 10:08:40 <M4v3R> 2. Seller clicks on "Release BTC" button
629 2011-06-10 10:08:58 <M4v3R> 3. Buyer sees this and have these BTC in frozen state
630 2011-06-10 10:09:18 <M4v3R> 4. Buyer then sends an email to us that he confirms that he has received the goods
631 2011-06-10 10:09:25 <M4v3R> 5. And we unfreeze his funds then
632 2011-06-10 10:10:01 <M4v3R> What do you guys think of this?
633 2011-06-10 10:10:31 <iera> thats an escrow service, nothing new
634 2011-06-10 10:10:35 <sipa> M4v3R: it's simply not allowed by paypal to use its service for selling digital goods
635 2011-06-10 10:10:51 <M4v3R> iera: not exactly
636 2011-06-10 10:10:57 <sipa> no escrow will fix that
637 2011-06-10 10:11:00 <M4v3R> Because buyer sends an email which goes from his IP
638 2011-06-10 10:11:13 <sipa> details
639 2011-06-10 10:11:19 <xelister> sipa: you're bitcoin developer right?  from which country?
640 2011-06-10 10:11:26 <sipa> xelister: belgium
641 2011-06-10 10:11:28 <sturles> No.  PayPal allows selling of digital goods.  There is an own category for it.
642 2011-06-10 10:11:41 <M4v3R> sturles: Yeah, I also think that they allow it
643 2011-06-10 10:12:06 <xelister> sipa: what do you think of idea to transport bitcoin over freenet - it would make bitcoin uncensorable and private (thugs can't so easly spy on whos using bitcoin, who's doing what etc)
644 2011-06-10 10:12:47 <sipa> in general, i'm in favor of alternative ways to have nodes communicate with eachother
645 2011-06-10 10:12:52 <sipa> but it's low priority now
646 2011-06-10 10:13:04 <xelister> sipa: well #btcfn already works on it
647 2011-06-10 10:13:13 <xelister> once it is ready, will you pull it into mainline client
648 2011-06-10 10:13:39 <xelister> (if it turns out to be /also/ in form of patches /probably extra RPC calls/ to the bitcoin client)
649 2011-06-10 10:13:54 <sipa> i think all is needed is an rpc call to receive txs/blocks in binary form, and to inject those txs/blocks into a node
650 2011-06-10 10:14:03 <xelister> basically yes
651 2011-06-10 10:14:16 <xelister> perhaps with some extra options to make this mechanism more realible and performant
652 2011-06-10 10:14:21 <sipa> some other system on top of that can do whatever it wants with it
653 2011-06-10 10:14:34 <sipa> be it freenet or satellite communication
654 2011-06-10 10:14:44 <xelister> or BATMAN ;)
655 2011-06-10 10:14:46 <sipa> of cutting into stone
656 2011-06-10 10:15:36 <sipa> M4v3R: hmm, they allow virtual goods?
657 2011-06-10 10:15:56 <iera> satellite is great for broadcast, but it would probably be taken down
658 2011-06-10 10:15:57 <M4v3R> From what I see, yes
659 2011-06-10 10:16:59 <sipa> xelister: actually, it's even easier - you could use any of the lightweight node implementations in existance, and let that hook into your own communication protocol
660 2011-06-10 10:17:29 <xelister> sipa: hmm but it its easier to just run 1 node I guess
661 2011-06-10 10:17:36 <xelister> although this is some option indeed
662 2011-06-10 10:18:20 <M4v3R> Sipa: https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Merchant-services/Virtual-Products/m-p/213140#M3711
663 2011-06-10 10:19:09 <sipa> M4v3R: interesting, people in #bitcoin-otc will want to read that, i guess
664 2011-06-10 10:19:51 <M4v3R> Still, I'd like to know if this idea of mine will be enough to protect the sellers
665 2011-06-10 10:20:31 <sipa> i wonder why eg. coinpal wasn't able to use this
666 2011-06-10 10:21:06 <sipa> http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=2555.msg101084#msg101084
667 2011-06-10 10:21:42 <Sami345> lol! I bitcoin value is in the sky :D
668 2011-06-10 10:21:52 <M4v3R> Sipa: CoinPal is a different story
669 2011-06-10 10:22:03 <M4v3R> Because he was selling Bitcoins to many people from his one account
670 2011-06-10 10:22:26 <M4v3R> We at BitMarket.eu only match sellers with buyers, which decentralizes the trading
671 2011-06-10 10:22:35 <M4v3R> So there's no single Paypal account to block
672 2011-06-10 10:22:44 <M4v3R> But still this is vurnable to chargebacks
673 2011-06-10 10:26:18 <xelister> M4v3R: interestin
674 2011-06-10 10:26:48 <M4v3R> I think we'll implement this email mechanism and I'll see how it works
675 2011-06-10 10:29:56 <jav_> What's the current status on the discussion surrounding transaction fees? what policies will the next releases have?
676 2011-06-10 10:34:16 <jav_> moving to 0.0005 BTC? .. but amounts less than 0.01 BTC will still be problematic?
677 2011-06-10 10:39:22 <Sami345> ;;bc,calc 180000
678 2011-06-10 10:39:23 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 180000 Khps, given current difficulty of 567358.22457067 , is 22 weeks, 2 days, 16 hours, 28 minutes, and 14 seconds
679 2011-06-10 10:40:00 <krekbwoy> ;;bc,calc 700000
680 2011-06-10 10:40:01 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 700000 Khps, given current difficulty of 567358.22457067 , is 5 weeks, 5 days, 6 hours, 58 minutes, and 41 seconds
681 2011-06-10 10:40:33 <jav_> I still fee like the "dust spam prevention" rules were a bad idea... dust spam doesn't seem like such a big problem and now we have a complicated system that makes it hard to reason whether a transaction will propagate
682 2011-06-10 10:43:53 <jav_> and it has all these ugly hardcoded values like 0.01 BTC.. what's special about 0.01 BTC? .. this needs to be much more dynamic
683 2011-06-10 10:44:59 <xelister> jav_: yea... in some time it may be 0.01 USD =  1 US dollar. way too little granuality
684 2011-06-10 10:47:33 <jav_> I'm currently trying to upgrade Instawallet to deal with amounts smaller than 0.01 BTC and it's just a big problem... I basically have to put this on hold, until 1) there is a better fee handling over the RPC interface and 2) I feel like I understand which transactions are getting forwarded by nodes and which don't
685 2011-06-10 10:48:50 <x6763> yeah, the fee situation has sucked for a while
686 2011-06-10 10:50:19 <jav_> x6763: I agree.. and I tried to raise this on the forum before, but got shut down with "the miners will figure out a fee structure"... which is only half of the problem, the other half is what transactions are getting forwarded by the majority of nodes and miners don't have influence over that
687 2011-06-10 10:50:49 <xelister> jav_: there should be fee per each transaction imo (per each send and sendmany)
688 2011-06-10 10:52:59 <jav_> xelister: I disagree, I think free transactions are a killer feature during this early phase of Bitcoin and as many free transactions as possible should be supported.... I would like to see a system where a node basically forwards everything it sees until it reaches some threshold on throughput, then it gradually drops transactions (starting with free and low priority) ones until it's within limits again
689 2011-06-10 10:53:25 <jav_> xelister: If a spammer starts spamming the network, you then just need to pay a little bit more than him to still get through
690 2011-06-10 10:55:56 <arienh4> Does anyone here know what happens to unclaimed transaction fees? So if the miner only puts 50 BTC in his generation transaction while there are fees in the block?
691 2011-06-10 10:57:20 <eps1> ;;bc,mtgox
692 2011-06-10 10:57:22 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":31.5,"low":25.626,"vol":43587,"buy":26.5,"sell":26.6,"last":26.5}}
693 2011-06-10 10:57:24 <x6763> arienh4: i'm assuming those bitcoins are just lost...i haven't seen anything that suggests nodes would treat the block as invalid
694 2011-06-10 10:57:47 <arienh4> x6763: And if the generation transaction isn't in there?
695 2011-06-10 10:58:31 <x6763> arienh4: i think that transaction is required to be in the block
696 2011-06-10 10:58:47 <iera> i agree with jav_, mandatory transaction fees and i wouldnt have started with bitcoin at all
697 2011-06-10 10:59:25 <arienh4> jav_: Nothing stops anyone from accepting transactions using a system like that.
698 2011-06-10 11:00:27 <jav_> arienh4: I can accept them sure... but I have to link in with the rest of the Bitcoin node, which will run the standard Bitcoin software and I won't be able to forward my transaction to any of those nodes
699 2011-06-10 11:00:40 <jav_> the rest of the Bitcoin network, I mean
700 2011-06-10 11:00:49 <arienh4> jav_: You can, but miners decide whether to include a TX in a block based on their own rules.
701 2011-06-10 11:00:49 <x6763> arienh4: according to the protocol rules, there must be a coingen transaction in the block: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules
702 2011-06-10 11:01:02 <arienh4> x6763: Thanks
703 2011-06-10 11:02:30 <jav_> arienh4: yes, and I'm sure the miners will figure out a good system... but I'm talking about getting the transaction from an arbitrary position in the network to a miner or to me. The transaction will most likely have to go through vanilla Bitcoin nodes and as such I'm bound by their rules if I want a somewhat reliable propagation
704 2011-06-10 11:02:30 <x6763> arienh4: it also mentions checking that the coingen transaction output is not greater than the block creation fee and transaction fees, but does not say anything about it needing to be equal, so i assume it's technically possible that the fees can be unclaimed
705 2011-06-10 11:02:53 <arienh4> jav_: I thought nodes were supposed to propagate transactions through the pool indiscriminately.
706 2011-06-10 11:03:26 <arienh4> jav_: If need be, you can always peer with the free transaction relay policy network.
707 2011-06-10 11:03:44 <x6763> arienh4: maybe the current code is supposed to (i'm not sure anymore), but there's no enforceable way to do that
708 2011-06-10 11:03:51 <jav_> arienh4: I can, but my customer who wants to pay me with Bitcoin won't
709 2011-06-10 11:04:12 <arienh4> x6763: You always run that risk with a p2p network.
710 2011-06-10 11:05:29 <arienh4> Oh, it looks like the peers do refuse transactions that have a TX fee that's too low.
711 2011-06-10 11:05:42 <arienh4> That's a bad idea IMO.
712 2011-06-10 11:06:23 <jav_> arienh4: see, that's what I'm saying =) .. some of that was put into place to prevent "dust spam", but I think it's not flexible enough and will cause more problems than it solves
713 2011-06-10 11:06:51 <arienh4> jav_: To be honest, I think the client SHOULD propagate transactions indiscriminately.
714 2011-06-10 11:08:05 <jav_> arienh4: well, that won't probably work either... because the clients network bandwidth is a shared resource and you don't want to open yourself up to spamming attacks which use all of the available bandwidth and high-priority transactions don't get through anymore
715 2011-06-10 11:08:08 <arienh4> When and why was sending to an IP address pulled from the client anyway?
716 2011-06-10 11:08:46 <arienh4> jav_: Then, yes, your idea.
717 2011-06-10 11:11:04 <arienh4> It would probably be a good idea for big companies if they would ever accept Bitcoin to mine themselves and accept transactions directly.
718 2011-06-10 11:11:17 <devon_hillard> is it possible to detect double-spending after the fact, even if it can't be reversed?
719 2011-06-10 11:11:41 <arienh4> devon_hillard: Double-spending is impossible.
720 2011-06-10 11:12:07 <arienh4> I mean, you could have two transactions in multiple block chains...
721 2011-06-10 11:12:40 <x6763> arienh4: that's how the attack would work...create a second branch that doesn't include the transaction you made in the other branch
722 2011-06-10 11:12:47 <devon_hillard> arienh4: yeah, you could spend a few coins of an invalid block chain if it momentarily had enough sway over the network
723 2011-06-10 11:13:01 <devon_hillard> arienh4: then using the same power to promote a different chain
724 2011-06-10 11:13:10 <arienh4> devon_hillard: So that's how you would detect it, if the block the original transaction was in is no longer in the block chain.
725 2011-06-10 11:13:43 <x6763> devon_hillard: you'd be able to see that certain tx outputs were spent in one branch, but then not spent in a newer branch, but i don't know that you'd be able to prove that was due to a double spending attack or not
726 2011-06-10 11:13:55 <arienh4> 
727 2011-06-10 11:15:04 <arienh4> x6763: If the same ouput is referenced in seperate transactions in seperate chains, it's double-spending.
728 2011-06-10 11:15:31 <xelister> jav_: that is what I said ;) there should be txfees, with option to set txfee (0 or 0.01 or 0.0001 or whatever) also individually for teach transaction, not just globally in config
729 2011-06-10 11:15:42 <x6763> arienh4: ah yeah, sorry, i messed up and was thinking about just undoing a transaction, not double-spending outputs
730 2011-06-10 11:16:09 <jav_> xelister: ok, I see.. yes, definitely, it should be possible to do this on a per-transaction case
731 2011-06-10 11:16:11 <arienh4> x6763: Undoing a transaction isn't really double-spending.
732 2011-06-10 11:16:12 <x6763> xelister: yeah, i hate the whole one-fee-fits-all thing going on
733 2011-06-10 11:16:57 <x6763> arienh4: right...though it means you still can double spend later
734 2011-06-10 11:17:08 <arienh4> x6763: True.
735 2011-06-10 11:17:31 <arienh4> Then it's just a matter of checking whether the output is spent at all.
736 2011-06-10 11:19:34 <jav_> arienh4: I was thinking the same thing, regarding companies just accepting transactions over a direct link... it might be worthwhile to define some standard protocol for that which might also include some out-of-band information (like what this transaction is used for) which could be passed over this direct link. It would make paying with Bitcoin much more reliable if you can hand the transaction directly to the merchant and he worries about getting it int
737 2011-06-10 11:20:08 <arienh4> jav_: Not really, though. Just having a signed transaction doesn't prevent double-spending.
738 2011-06-10 11:20:23 <arienh4> It still needs to be put in a few blocks before you're sure.
739 2011-06-10 11:21:06 <jav_> arienh4: I know.. this wasn't in response to the double spend discussion... more as a addon to the "how to reliable transfer transactions through the network" discussion
740 2011-06-10 11:21:08 <arienh4> Although, as difficulty goes up, shouldn't the amount of confirmations needed go down?
741 2011-06-10 11:21:23 <arienh4> jav_: Well, yeah, but it doesn't add much.
742 2011-06-10 11:23:11 <jav_> arienh4: I think it does.. especially in cases where you just assume that the sender is honest and won't double-spend. ... It would make the payment process very fast and reliable.. whereas when you rely on the P2P network, every once in a while a transaction might get "stuck" somewhere and you have an annoyed customer
743 2011-06-10 11:23:31 <arienh4> jav_: True.
744 2011-06-10 11:23:56 <arienh4> Someone could set up a premium mining pool that only accepts transactions that are paid for.