1 2011-06-29 00:00:17 <BlueMatt> no, its not hard to duplicate, its not really corrupted, just refusing to load as if something like that is seen in the wild, more corruption might be there, so its best to make the user ask a recovery spcialist
  2 2011-06-29 00:00:19 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I hate bitcoin.
  3 2011-06-29 00:00:32 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: and you are here because...?
  4 2011-06-29 00:00:49 <Diablo-D3> blueMatt: because apparently Im the only asshole here who can code
  5 2011-06-29 00:01:07 <BlueMatt> lol, ok then
  6 2011-06-29 00:01:15 <luke-jr> is there any way to guarantee a transaction can't be reinstated in another block, if the one it's in is made invalid?
  7 2011-06-29 00:02:01 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: oh, it was an obvious miss, Ill go fix it
  8 2011-06-29 00:02:11 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I think you need the opposite of nlocktime (can't include after block x) and we don't have that.
  9 2011-06-29 00:02:18 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: no
 10 2011-06-29 00:02:28 <BlueMatt> (we dont have that for a reason)
 11 2011-06-29 00:02:33 <luke-jr> :<
 12 2011-06-29 00:02:45 <luke-jr> I wanted to add a dummy txn, with only inputs and no outputs
 13 2011-06-29 00:02:54 <luke-jr> to make generation > 50 BTC
 14 2011-06-29 00:03:10 <luke-jr> but no way to prevent Deepbit from forking just to steal that, eh
 15 2011-06-29 00:03:29 <Diablo-D3> >no outputs
 16 2011-06-29 00:03:36 <Diablo-D3> niggawat
 17 2011-06-29 00:03:44 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yes, to feed the generation, all fees.
 18 2011-06-29 00:03:50 <kreal-> whom made guiminer ?
 19 2011-06-29 00:03:59 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: but...
 20 2011-06-29 00:04:04 <Diablo-D3> that'd make 50 btc dissapear forever
 21 2011-06-29 00:04:11 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: no, n00b
 22 2011-06-29 00:04:12 <gmaxwell> ... no.
 23 2011-06-29 00:04:14 <kreal-> or put in another way, is Kiv here ?
 24 2011-06-29 00:04:28 <gmaxwell> jesus. luke wants to pay the miners already in his coinbase txn more than 50 btc.
 25 2011-06-29 00:04:32 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: 25 BTC input, 0 BTC output = 25 BTC txn fee
 26 2011-06-29 00:04:35 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3:  25 BTC input, 0 BTC output = 25 BTC txn fee
 27 2011-06-29 00:04:39 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: = 75 BTC generated
 28 2011-06-29 00:04:57 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it'd be so cool! :P
 29 2011-06-29 00:05:00 <Diablo-D3> oh
 30 2011-06-29 00:05:04 <Diablo-D3> on the tx
 31 2011-06-29 00:05:05 <Diablo-D3> not the gen tx
 32 2011-06-29 00:05:09 <luke-jr> right
 33 2011-06-29 00:05:19 <Diablo-D3> yeah, I'd just eat your free lunch
 34 2011-06-29 00:05:52 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: announce a conflicting transaction firs.t
 35 2011-06-29 00:06:00 <gmaxwell> Then ignore the conflicting transaction
 36 2011-06-29 00:06:02 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: why not just insert fake shares into s3?
 37 2011-06-29 00:06:07 <Diablo-D3> and fake inflate our balances
 38 2011-06-29 00:06:07 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I'm assuming malicious competing pools
 39 2011-06-29 00:06:43 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: ie, they see the lucritive fee and decide to fork the block chain just to get it
 40 2011-06-29 00:06:47 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: but the malicious pool would be including their conflict in the invalid. But I guess you can't promise that, alas.
 41 2011-06-29 00:07:19 <gmaxwell> (then they'd have to mine two blocks to get it, as they'd have to replace their block with the conflict.)
 42 2011-06-29 00:08:38 <Diablo-D3> dude
 43 2011-06-29 00:08:41 <Diablo-D3> if I see a fee like that
 44 2011-06-29 00:08:46 <Diablo-D3> Ill hack the gibson to get it
 45 2011-06-29 00:08:49 <Diablo-D3> actually fuck
 46 2011-06-29 00:09:00 <Diablo-D3> I should write a hacked up DiabloMiner that tries to intentionally hack the gibson
 47 2011-06-29 00:09:08 <Diablo-D3> everyone would just switch to that and steal each other's balances
 48 2011-06-29 00:09:49 <dubbz82> https://github.com/dubbz82/Bitcoin-Price-Calculator if anyone wants to look at my crappy c# code..
 49 2011-06-29 00:10:00 <Diablo-D3> no one wants to look at your anti-FOSS bullshit
 50 2011-06-29 00:10:04 <Diablo-D3> take your swpat whoring elsewhere
 51 2011-06-29 00:10:06 <dubbz82> XD
 52 2011-06-29 00:11:05 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: hypocrit
 53 2011-06-29 00:11:12 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: you use anti-FOSS github too
 54 2011-06-29 00:11:19 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: no, the C# you fuckwit
 55 2011-06-29 00:11:24 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: are you in a bad mood because your miner is now inferior to _poclbm_ of all things, because it got a fast kernel that pretty much matches yours, and it has _backup_ pool support?
 56 2011-06-29 00:11:46 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: no, he's mad that GimEEE is in -otc
 57 2011-06-29 00:11:47 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: erm, is that before or after I told m0 to steal my kernel?
 58 2011-06-29 00:11:56 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: argh why did you remind me
 59 2011-06-29 00:12:01 <Diablo-D3> WHY IS GIMEEE IN -OTC
 60 2011-06-29 00:12:10 <Diablo-D3> I MEAN, WHY IS HE STILL BREATHING
 61 2011-06-29 00:12:19 <Diablo-D3> I AM HATE INCARNATE
 62 2011-06-29 00:12:51 <dubbz82> heh
 63 2011-06-29 00:13:43 <lfm> Diablo-D3: <- is probably a cute little 10 year old girl IRL
 64 2011-06-29 00:14:38 <gmaxwell> Lets play tea^wjava.
 65 2011-06-29 00:15:32 <BlueMatt> who the hell is Gimeee
 66 2011-06-29 00:17:53 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: forum troll
 67 2011-06-29 00:17:56 <Diablo-D3> lfm: I wish
 68 2011-06-29 00:18:00 <Diablo-D3> I could get all the women I want
 69 2011-06-29 00:18:04 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: that says what?
 70 2011-06-29 00:18:29 <BlueMatt> arg, its 4am and I ahve one more valgrind bug...
 71 2011-06-29 00:18:47 <Zarutian> oh, the joys of debugging </sarcasm>
 72 2011-06-29 00:20:05 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: he keeps accusing luke of stealing money
 73 2011-06-29 00:20:32 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: he claims luke is stealing how?
 74 2011-06-29 00:21:08 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, something about almost 7 btc
 75 2011-06-29 00:21:24 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: he wants me to pay him 2x his earnings because payouts were broken and it got delayed or smth
 76 2011-06-29 00:21:33 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: otherwise he'll FUD troll
 77 2011-06-29 00:21:43 <Diablo-D3> I keep deleting his posts on the forum
 78 2011-06-29 00:21:46 <Diablo-D3> he keeps not getting it
 79 2011-06-29 00:22:30 <BlueMatt> wow...well where is nanotube?
 80 2011-06-29 00:23:23 <gmaxwell> stop bugging bluematt, he needs to focus and fix all the bugs in bitcoin.
 81 2011-06-29 00:23:40 <gmaxwell> (no pressure)
 82 2011-06-29 00:25:25 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: well, I rated GimEEE -10, so once he leaves he'll be stuck :p
 83 2011-06-29 00:25:33 <Diablo-D3> heh
 84 2011-06-29 00:25:38 <Diablo-D3> so wait
 85 2011-06-29 00:25:45 <Diablo-D3> did someone just claim poclbm was faster than mine?
 86 2011-06-29 00:26:00 <luke-jr> yes
 87 2011-06-29 00:26:02 <luke-jr> lol
 88 2011-06-29 00:26:12 <Diablo-D3> oh, so he finally decided to frakenkernel?
 89 2011-06-29 00:26:25 <luke-jr> yep
 90 2011-06-29 00:26:28 <luke-jr> now it uses a ton more RAM
 91 2011-06-29 00:26:34 <Diablo-D3> wait, why?
 92 2011-06-29 00:26:35 <luke-jr> and gets me a whole 1 MH/s more
 93 2011-06-29 00:26:44 <luke-jr> phatk is bloated? dunno
 94 2011-06-29 00:27:01 <luke-jr> Phoenix had the same problem
 95 2011-06-29 00:27:07 <Diablo-D3> wait, what sort of ram?
 96 2011-06-29 00:27:23 <luke-jr> system RAM
 97 2011-06-29 00:27:28 <luke-jr> my mining VM only has 256 MB
 98 2011-06-29 00:27:44 <luke-jr> if I don't add swap, phatk gets OOM killed
 99 2011-06-29 00:29:01 <dubbz82> and (not that it should matter too much, as the mining client itself shouldn't eat up much resource wise) what OS is this?
100 2011-06-29 00:30:14 <luke-jr> yay lol
101 2011-06-29 00:30:23 <luke-jr> dubbz82: Gentoo GNU/Linux
102 2011-06-29 00:30:33 <dubbz82> heh
103 2011-06-29 00:30:35 <dubbz82> fair enough
104 2011-06-29 00:31:28 <nanotube> BlueMatt: nanotube here. sup? :)
105 2011-06-29 00:32:21 <BlueMatt> nanotube: what is this about some troll in -otc who luke and diablo claim needs banned?
106 2011-06-29 00:32:23 <Replayer> Does anyone else have the experience that when bitcoin runs under the server command its a little bit sketchy for connection?
107 2011-06-29 00:32:56 <b4epoche_> BlueMatt:  I'll update once the core stuff is stable and compiles
108 2011-06-29 00:32:57 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: he's banned
109 2011-06-29 00:33:08 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: he got kicked and I rated him -10 :p
110 2011-06-29 00:33:09 <nanotube> BlueMatt: dunno what you're talking about, i was afk. what happened? luke-jr ?
111 2011-06-29 00:33:24 <luke-jr> nanotube: GimEEE demands BTC from me under threat of (more) slander
112 2011-06-29 00:33:29 <luke-jr> nanotube: I don't pay trolls off
113 2011-06-29 00:33:58 <Replayer> I find bitcoin - server cant be connectewd to 50% of the time through the RPC stuff
114 2011-06-29 00:34:06 <BlueMatt> oh lol
115 2011-06-29 00:34:26 <nanotube> luke-jr: hrm why, what does he claim happened, and what really did happen?
116 2011-06-29 00:34:54 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: weird, I have no such problems.
117 2011-06-29 00:35:22 <luke-jr> nanotube: the pool changed payout method, new system was buggy, so I reverted it and recalculated payouts under the original system retroactively. he sees the graph showing his balance down during the buggy period, and ignores the huge leap after it.
118 2011-06-29 00:35:32 <gmaxwell> Hm I think someone is trying a sybil attack on namecoin.
119 2011-06-29 00:35:45 <gmaxwell> Lfnet complained to them that they needed to split thei channels up because they had 6000 users.
120 2011-06-29 00:35:46 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ok, pushed a new one that should fix most of that crap
121 2011-06-29 00:35:48 <luke-jr> nanotube: IIRC he more recently changed his story to "payout took too long, so you forced me to loan it and I want interest"
122 2011-06-29 00:36:15 <BlueMatt> still need to figure out why the hell  walletpassphrase is lagging on low timeouts (something to do with threadtopupkeypool lagging, but that shouldnt be...)
123 2011-06-29 00:36:17 <gmaxwell> I looked and there are dozens of russian IPs with mutiple hosts.
124 2011-06-29 00:36:37 <nanotube> luke-jr: heh i see...
125 2011-06-29 00:37:03 <BlueMatt> ok, thats all, Im finally off
126 2011-06-29 00:37:15 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: please keep destroying my code ;)
127 2011-06-29 00:37:30 <dubbz82> lol?
128 2011-06-29 00:38:01 <luke-jr> lol
129 2011-06-29 00:41:11 <dubbz82> if a pool screws up, and the owner properly repays.....what the heck was he complaining about?
130 2011-06-29 00:41:12 <dubbz82> lol
131 2011-06-29 00:44:31 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I have a feeling its not currently writing private keys to db when topupkeypool is called after a wallet is already encrypted
132 2011-06-29 00:44:46 <BlueMatt> would you mind checking that, I want to go to bed
133 2011-06-29 00:46:12 <b4epoche_> I think I've created a monster by introducing my daughter to Minecraft...
134 2011-06-29 00:46:51 <Moral_> lol
135 2011-06-29 00:47:27 <cuddlefish> I'm such a 1337 h4x0r
136 2011-06-29 00:50:42 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: nevermind, that works, though I found another critical bug to debug in the morning...getaccountaddres doesnt work...
137 2011-06-29 00:50:52 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin: Error loading wallet.dat
138 2011-06-29 00:50:57 <gmaxwell> yea got it back into that state.
139 2011-06-29 00:51:03 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: how?
140 2011-06-29 00:51:34 <BlueMatt> it would appear I failed to push the last fix
141 2011-06-29 00:51:43 <gmaxwell> ahh
142 2011-06-29 00:51:44 <BlueMatt> now try
143 2011-06-29 00:52:00 <gmaxwell> because it's not a commit this wasn't clear, fetch pulled _something_
144 2011-06-29 00:52:46 <b4epoche_> w00t, working CocoaBitcoin again!
145 2011-06-29 00:52:55 <b4epoche_> now I can finish the UI stuff
146 2011-06-29 00:53:22 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: okay, thats not coming up with the wallet.dat previously in that state... trying to blow it away and trigger it again.
147 2011-06-29 00:53:43 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: wow, wait if the wallet has a mix of keys that should still come up
148 2011-06-29 00:54:09 <gmaxwell> okay, well I kept a copy of one that wasn't coming up
149 2011-06-29 00:54:16 <gmaxwell> whats your git rev number?
150 2011-06-29 00:55:14 <BlueMatt> whatever current github is, I just push -fd
151 2011-06-29 00:55:17 <gmaxwell> didn't get back into that state.
152 2011-06-29 00:55:26 <gmaxwell> (at least not quickly.
153 2011-06-29 00:55:28 <gmaxwell> )
154 2011-06-29 00:55:36 <BlueMatt> shouldnt get into that state, but should still not open on that state
155 2011-06-29 00:56:11 <gmaxwell> oh then its fine then: with the latest push it didn't seem to get into it, but it won't open the wallet from it.
156 2011-06-29 00:56:26 <BlueMatt> oh, ok thats right
157 2011-06-29 00:56:49 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: whats the other known bug so I know not to waste time on it/
158 2011-06-29 00:56:53 <gmaxwell> s/other//
159 2011-06-29 00:56:54 <gmaxwell> ?
160 2011-06-29 00:56:56 <BlueMatt> well isnt that a joy, when I try to debug a bug I had been reproducing all night, it wont show up again...
161 2011-06-29 00:57:06 <BlueMatt> getaccountaddress (and probably others) lock up
162 2011-06-29 00:57:12 <BlueMatt> must be bad locking order
163 2011-06-29 00:57:20 <BlueMatt> also, walletpassphrase sometimes lags
164 2011-06-29 00:57:23 <gmaxwell> ah, okay. hadn't gotten there yet.
165 2011-06-29 00:57:26 <lfm> bluemattthat means you fixed it
166 2011-06-29 00:57:27 <gmaxwell> Yes, noticed the lags....
167 2011-06-29 00:57:28 <BlueMatt> but now I cant reproduce that for some reason
168 2011-06-29 00:57:43 <BlueMatt> walletpassphrase should be really quick
169 2011-06-29 00:58:42 <gmaxwell> hahaha
170 2011-06-29 00:58:54 <gmaxwell> [gmaxwell@kindle01 src]$ .//bitcoind -rpcport=9999 -rpcuser=x -rpcpassword=x  walletpassphrase "x" 1
171 2011-06-29 00:58:58 <gmaxwell> [gmaxwell@kindle01 src]$ .//bitcoind -rpcport=9999 -rpcuser=x -rpcpassword=x  walletpassphrase "x" 1
172 2011-06-29 00:59:01 <gmaxwell> error: {"code":-14,"message":"Error: The wallet passphrase entered was incorrect."}
173 2011-06-29 00:59:04 <gmaxwell> [gmaxwell@kindle01 src]$ .//bitcoind -rpcport=9999 -rpcuser=x -rpcpassword=x  walletpassphrase "x" 1
174 2011-06-29 01:00:04 <BlueMatt> oh, yea bad error message
175 2011-06-29 01:00:07 <BlueMatt> expected result
176 2011-06-29 01:02:35 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: er getnewaddress can run out of keys even while the wallet is unlocked.
177 2011-06-29 01:03:08 <gmaxwell> I hope that isn't intended.
178 2011-06-29 01:03:39 <gmaxwell> e.g. unlock the wallet for 30 seconds, call getnewaddress in a loop, it'll run out long before the 30 seconds are up
179 2011-06-29 01:03:41 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: theoretically it shouldnt
180 2011-06-29 01:04:02 <gmaxwell> (if you do a getinfo during that time, however, it will refill the pool)
181 2011-06-29 01:04:04 <BlueMatt> no, because when it gets from keypool that will if (!IsLocked()) TopUpKeyPool
182 2011-06-29 01:04:26 <gmaxwell> I bet its already locked there or something that moots it?
183 2011-06-29 01:04:32 <BlueMatt> wait, did you test this, or are you saying from experimental?
184 2011-06-29 01:04:44 <gmaxwell> Er. Yes?
185 2011-06-29 01:04:51 <gmaxwell> I'm testing it. It's not working.
186 2011-06-29 01:05:12 <BlueMatt> oh, that shouldnt happen
187 2011-06-29 01:05:13 <BlueMatt> 1 sec
188 2011-06-29 01:06:02 <BlueMatt> dont see how that could happen...
189 2011-06-29 01:06:03 <gmaxwell> loop on getnewaddress... run out. in parallel walletpassphrase 30, still out. during the 30 seconds run getinfo... takes a long time, and tada. Addresses!
190 2011-06-29 01:06:32 <BlueMatt> oh, same account?
191 2011-06-29 01:06:39 <gmaxwell> Yes, one account.
192 2011-06-29 01:06:46 <BlueMatt> oh, shouldnt matter
193 2011-06-29 01:06:50 <gmaxwell> just using getnewaddress with no options.
194 2011-06-29 01:07:01 <gmaxwell> are you sure getnewaddress doesn't take the lock it later checks?
195 2011-06-29 01:07:13 <BlueMatt> ok walletpassphrase isnt lagging for me...is it for you anymore?
196 2011-06-29 01:07:17 <gmaxwell> (the refill checks)
197 2011-06-29 01:07:21 <gmaxwell> yea, it's not lagging anymore.
198 2011-06-29 01:07:33 <BlueMatt> nfc what I did
199 2011-06-29 01:07:48 <gmaxwell> in my case the lag could have all been valgrind.
200 2011-06-29 01:08:01 <BlueMatt> no it was lagging sans valgrind for me too
201 2011-06-29 01:08:06 <BlueMatt> oh well, its not anymore
202 2011-06-29 01:08:08 <gmaxwell> though btw, ... should getinfo really be triggering the pool fill while the password commands don't?
203 2011-06-29 01:08:21 <BlueMatt> password command does, just in a separate thread
204 2011-06-29 01:08:29 <BlueMatt> getinfo is same thread
205 2011-06-29 01:08:37 <gmaxwell> Ah.
206 2011-06-29 01:08:41 <gmaxwell> well, walletpassphrase does not refill.
207 2011-06-29 01:09:03 <BlueMatt> (because theoretically it should only have to fill one or two keys as keypool will keep itself filled if possible)
208 2011-06-29 01:09:21 <lfm> "version" : 32300,
209 2011-06-29 01:09:30 <lfm> "version" : 32300, doesnt run out
210 2011-06-29 01:10:08 <gmaxwell> Yea, I expected this to be caused by wallet crypto.
211 2011-06-29 01:11:23 <BlueMatt> getnewaddress is refilling pool for me
212 2011-06-29 01:11:33 <lfm> so you can remove addr without lock but not add?
213 2011-06-29 01:12:03 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea getnewaddress wfm
214 2011-06-29 01:12:05 <BlueMatt> (when unlocked)
215 2011-06-29 01:12:27 <BlueMatt> Im off to bed, if you can reliably reproduce it, leave it with gribble via ;;later tell, or on github
216 2011-06-29 01:12:32 <BlueMatt> or via email, etc, etc
217 2011-06-29 01:12:33 <gmaxwell> it's 100% reliable.
218 2011-06-29 01:12:43 <BlueMatt> Ill look more tomorrow
219 2011-06-29 01:12:47 <gmaxwell> k.
220 2011-06-29 01:14:02 <gmaxwell> $ ./bitcoind -rpcport=9999 -rpcuser=x -rpcpassword=x  walletpassphrase "x" 30 ; sleep 3; for i in {0..101} ;do  .//bitcoind -rpcport=9999 -rpcuser=x -rpcpassword=x getnewaddress ; done
221 2011-06-29 01:14:06 <gmaxwell> error: {"code":-12,"message":"Error: Keypool ran out, please call keypoolrefill first"}
222 2011-06-29 01:14:09 <gmaxwell> error: {"code":-12,"message":"Error: Keypool ran out, please call keypoolrefill first"}
223 2011-06-29 01:14:29 <gmaxwell> I can leave that running and it'll just produce errors until I getinfo
224 2011-06-29 01:21:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: well damnit, I added some instrumentation and restarted the daemon and now it's not doing it!
225 2011-06-29 01:22:35 <gmaxwell> ah, it's doing it again.
226 2011-06-29 01:28:32 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: er, this looks pretty obvious, rpc.cpp 389. If the pool is already empty it won't even try. It just gives up.
227 2011-06-29 01:34:55 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: And entering the password doesn't trigger it beause ThreadTopUpKeyPool is just busted.
228 2011-06-29 01:35:04 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r741d94787307 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/Gatekeeper/plugin.py: Gatekeeper: reply with invited message, to help the noobs. http://tinyurl.com/6kh9427
229 2011-06-29 01:36:27 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: entry to ThreadTopUpKeyPool is gated by a static that sets true once. then CWallet::TopUpKeyPool() will run once, and quit. Then the thread will never rstart.
230 2011-06-29 01:36:32 <gmaxwell> er restart.
231 2011-06-29 01:37:38 <gmaxwell> so to fix, make getnewaddress not instantly abort when there are zero, at least let it try to get once first.
232 2011-06-29 01:38:02 <gmaxwell> and mak the ThreadTopUpKeyPool stick around and/or let itself come back when it exits.
233 2011-06-29 01:38:57 <SixEch0> What's the difference between account and label?
234 2011-06-29 01:39:45 <theymos> SixEch0: There is none.
235 2011-06-29 01:43:02 <SixEch0> Gracias
236 2011-06-29 01:47:48 <SixEch0> So what's the point of the separation? Is it something not implimented yet?
237 2011-06-29 01:48:55 <egecko> what do you point of separation?
238 2011-06-29 01:49:06 <egecko> eer "do you mean"
239 2011-06-29 01:49:28 <theymos> The account functionality is only available in the command-line version, so the GUI just calls them "labels".
240 2011-06-29 01:49:44 <egecko> right
241 2011-06-29 01:50:03 <egecko> and the default account is the one whose label is blank
242 2011-06-29 01:59:21 <SixEch0> Gotcha. Thanks!
243 2011-06-29 02:00:06 <SixEch0> Default is blank.... that answered my next question. Thanks again
244 2011-06-29 03:38:46 <grug> nameless|: no poking me
245 2011-06-29 04:23:50 <egecko> i notice bitcoinwatch.com lists the network hashrate in teraflops/s... which seems kind of wierd given that they arent floating points
246 2011-06-29 04:25:57 <conjre> egecko: I noticed that too, strange...
247 2011-06-29 04:26:49 <conjre> I wonder how they came up with that figure then
248 2011-06-29 04:49:39 <Shuro> Hi there, i try at the momment bitcoin + php, and i readed about Proper_Money_Handling_(JSON-RPC) in the bitcoin.it wiki, there stands you should use round($value * 1e8), but that converts "1" to "100000000", issnt it wrong?
249 2011-06-29 04:53:01 <Shuro> shouldn't it convert it to 1.00000000? the BASH-Variant is right, "printf '%.8f' '1,0'" converts 1 to 1,00000000
250 2011-06-29 05:09:54 <manveru> lol at BASH :)
251 2011-06-29 05:12:20 <manveru> well, it's been almost a decade since i used php, but i think it still uses IEEE floats?
252 2011-06-29 05:16:25 <manveru> so this tries to convert it into integers
253 2011-06-29 05:32:53 <Shuro> but for what? i didnt understand where i need an integer with a value of "100000000" instand "1"
254 2011-06-29 05:41:49 <Shuro> manveru: where did i need "100000000" instand of "1"?
255 2011-06-29 05:44:29 <upb> when you calculate in bitcents
256 2011-06-29 05:45:14 <manveru> Shuro: well, it avoids loss of precision
257 2011-06-29 05:46:15 <manveru> if you have a rational or bigdecimal library, you can use those instead
258 2011-06-29 05:46:33 <dsockwell> Shuro: bitcoins are calculated to the 8th significant figure, so it's easier to just say one bitcoin is number 100000000
259 2011-06-29 05:46:49 <dsockwell> er
260 2011-06-29 05:46:57 <dsockwell> that's not how significant figures work but my point stands
261 2011-06-29 05:47:07 <manveru> :)
262 2011-06-29 05:47:28 <dsockwell> 8th decimal place, almost the same thing
263 2011-06-29 05:52:25 <manveru> ah, found it
264 2011-06-29 05:52:31 <manveru> Shuro: http://floating-point-gui.de/
265 2011-06-29 06:22:46 <carli2> hi. is there a bitcoin lib that i can use functions like wallets, transactions and the block data base in other applications, too?
266 2011-06-29 06:23:51 <Mqrius> Does anyone have a tool that computes public keys from private ones?
267 2011-06-29 06:24:55 <jeremias> does anyone have a tool that computes private keys from public ones?
268 2011-06-29 06:29:21 <carli2> does anyone have a tool that computes private keys from the hash of a public key?
269 2011-06-29 06:30:38 <pogden> carli2: No. that's the point of a private key, very difficult to compute from a public key
270 2011-06-29 06:31:35 <carli2> but it should be possible to create hash collisions of _any_ private-pubic key pair that fits the output hash of a txn output
271 2011-06-29 06:33:12 <RBecker> ;;bc,gen 50000
272 2011-06-29 06:33:14 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 50000 Khps, given current difficulty of 1379223.4296725 , is 0.0364635764933 BTC per day and 0.00151931568722 BTC per hour.
273 2011-06-29 06:33:17 <Mqrius> carli2: In theory, but it's still very hard. My question was an actual one though :/
274 2011-06-29 06:35:29 <carli2> which hash function is used to generate an address like 12C9c9VQLMrLi4Ffzq2wDvwrKnUPaAaNFp from the pubkey?
275 2011-06-29 06:35:50 <mrtn> carli2: it is described in protocol
276 2011-06-29 06:36:03 <mrtn> carli2: base58+cha256+sha256 IIRC
277 2011-06-29 06:36:10 <upb> cha cha cha
278 2011-06-29 06:36:19 <mrtn> cha is stronger sha
279 2011-06-29 06:36:26 <upb> :s
280 2011-06-29 06:36:29 <mrtn> (chinese version)
281 2011-06-29 06:37:18 <carli2> mrtn: base58(sha256(sha256(some_ECC_pubkey)))?
282 2011-06-29 06:37:28 <mrb_> it's base58(ripemd160(ripemd160(x))
283 2011-06-29 06:37:34 <sipa> no
284 2011-06-29 06:37:58 <mrb_> carli2: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Addresses
285 2011-06-29 06:37:58 <sipa> carli2: base58(version byte + ripemd160(sha256(pubkey)) + left32bitsof(sha256(sha256(version byte + ripemd160(sha256(pubkey))))))
286 2011-06-29 06:38:36 <mrb_> oh ripemd160+sha256 right
287 2011-06-29 06:38:57 <carli2> version byte? whats that?
288 2011-06-29 06:39:03 <RBecker> ;;bc,gen 31330000
289 2011-06-29 06:39:04 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 31330000 Khps, given current difficulty of 1379223.4296725 , is 22.8480770307 BTC per day and 0.952003209613 BTC per hour.
290 2011-06-29 06:39:26 <mrb_> carli2: the wiki answers this question
291 2011-06-29 06:39:28 <Mqrius> I tried compiling the priv_der.c here ( http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mgiuca/+junk/bitcoin-import/files ), but I get "make (e=2): The system cannot find the file specified." Anyone any ideas? (trying to use mingw)
292 2011-06-29 06:40:01 <sipa> carli2: version byte is 0 for mainnet, and 111 for testnet
293 2011-06-29 06:40:17 <carli2> ok, so 0 for me
294 2011-06-29 06:40:36 <RBecker> ;;bc,gen 31300
295 2011-06-29 06:40:37 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 31300 Khps, given current difficulty of 1379223.4296725 , is 0.0228261988848 BTC per day and 0.000951091620201 BTC per hour.
296 2011-06-29 06:41:47 <RBecker> ;;bc,gen 72290
297 2011-06-29 06:41:48 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 72290 Khps, given current difficulty of 1379223.4296725 , is 0.0527190388941 BTC per day and 0.00219662662059 BTC per hour.
298 2011-06-29 06:42:47 <RBecker> ;;bc,gen 31330
299 2011-06-29 06:42:48 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 31330 Khps, given current difficulty of 1379223.4296725 , is 0.0228480770307 BTC per day and 0.000952003209613 BTC per hour.
300 2011-06-29 06:45:36 <RBecker> ;;bc,calc 72290
301 2011-06-29 06:45:37 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 72290 Khps, given current difficulty of 1379223.4296725 , is 2 years, 31 weeks, 1 day, 10 hours, 10 minutes, and 30 seconds
302 2011-06-29 06:46:32 <RBecker> ;;bc,stats
303 2011-06-29 06:46:34 <gribble> Current Blocks: 133816 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 1255 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 0 hours, 46 minutes, and 55 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1498459.76226235
304 2011-06-29 06:50:42 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 822200 Khps, given current difficulty of 1379223.4296725 , is 11 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 18 minutes, and 38 seconds
305 2011-06-29 06:50:42 <RBecker> ;;bc,calc 822200
306 2011-06-29 06:50:47 <RBecker> ;;bc, gen
307 2011-06-29 06:50:48 <gribble> Error: "bc," is not a valid command.
308 2011-06-29 06:50:50 <RBecker> ;;bc,gen 822200
309 2011-06-29 06:50:51 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 822200 Khps, given current difficulty of 1379223.4296725 , is 0.599607051856 BTC per day and 0.0249836271607 BTC per hour.
310 2011-06-29 06:51:45 <phantomcircuit> RBecker, pm plz
311 2011-06-29 06:56:19 <zamgo> morning
312 2011-06-29 07:00:19 <sivu> i was thinking about the ipv6 support for the client
313 2011-06-29 07:01:38 <sivu> because the server hosting companies allocate millions of ipv6 addresses per server, it would be trivial to create >50% nodes with just few servers
314 2011-06-29 07:02:54 <pogden> the important 50% is not number of nodes, but processing power
315 2011-06-29 07:03:06 <zamgo> yup
316 2011-06-29 07:04:15 <zamgo> are there any existing bitcoin client/node software that only downloads the blockchain, and nothing else?
317 2011-06-29 07:04:30 <sivu> true
318 2011-06-29 07:04:38 <sipa> the client currently tries to not connect to multiple nodes within the same ipv4 /16
319 2011-06-29 07:04:45 <sipa> we'll need a similar rule for ipv6
320 2011-06-29 07:06:07 <sivu> sipa, can the connection be forced in the same address block?
321 2011-06-29 07:06:13 <sivu> by manually adding the ip
322 2011-06-29 07:07:12 <sipa> sure
323 2011-06-29 07:07:31 <sivu> like having a bitcoin server next to the firewall and clients on the intranet connecting to it
324 2011-06-29 07:12:33 <pogden> Anyone else having trouble connecting to the wiki?
325 2011-06-29 07:17:41 <spirals> pogden: Looks fine to me. Consider dfeojm.com as well.
326 2011-06-29 07:26:54 <pogden> spirals: thanks!
327 2011-06-29 08:27:07 <topi`> does anyone remember who's running the bitcoin block explorer?
328 2011-06-29 08:27:12 <topi`> in blockexplorer.com
329 2011-06-29 08:27:23 <lfm> theymos?
330 2011-06-29 08:27:29 <zamgo> theymos yes
331 2011-06-29 08:27:37 <zamgo> and others may be popping up soon
332 2011-06-29 08:27:47 <zamgo> which would be a Good Thing
333 2011-06-29 08:27:53 <topi`> I wonder which language he used for bitcoin explorer
334 2011-06-29 08:28:10 <justmoon> topi`, python
335 2011-06-29 08:28:17 <justmoon> plus a modified bitcoind
336 2011-06-29 08:28:21 <zamgo> and he is looking for someone trustworthy to host a mirror
337 2011-06-29 08:31:00 <topi`> interesting
338 2011-06-29 08:31:09 <topi`> I could host a mirror on my server, but it's low on CPU and RAM
339 2011-06-29 08:31:13 <topi`> need to buy a replacement
340 2011-06-29 08:39:07 <Eremes> Application DataBitcoin -> why its getting bigger and biggger ?
341 2011-06-29 08:39:35 <topi`> Eremes: people do transactions -> the public database of all transactions grows bigger and bigger
342 2011-06-29 08:39:53 <lfm> Eremes: same as any activly developing program
343 2011-06-29 08:40:19 <lfm> Oh the data dir, ya what topi said
344 2011-06-29 08:40:23 <Eremes> topi`: so if I copy my wallet.dat to standalone bitcoin client reside on USB flash disk, it will have to download all the data first ?
345 2011-06-29 08:40:42 <sipa> unless you include blkindex.dat and blk0001.dat, yes
346 2011-06-29 08:40:53 <lfm> Eremes: copy blk0001.dat and blkindex.dat too
347 2011-06-29 08:41:19 <Eremes> that 2 files is the biggest =(
348 2011-06-29 08:41:29 <sipa> those two files comprise the block database
349 2011-06-29 08:41:33 <topi`> buy a bigger USB memory stick ;)
350 2011-06-29 08:41:36 <topi`> 8 GB is cheap nowadays
351 2011-06-29 08:41:37 <lfm> ya, well thats why it take so long to get up to speed
352 2011-06-29 08:41:49 <Eremes> blk0001.dat = 500MB , blkindex.dat = 150MB
353 2011-06-29 08:42:18 <topi`> wow, mine is 320 MB
354 2011-06-29 08:42:21 <sipa> that seems too much
355 2011-06-29 08:42:23 <Eremes> is that means, if someone stole my wallet.dat they need to download 650MB before able to use it ?
356 2011-06-29 08:42:27 <lfm> mine is 320 too
357 2011-06-29 08:42:33 <sipa> 320 here as well
358 2011-06-29 08:42:36 <Eremes> sorry
359 2011-06-29 08:42:37 <Eremes> 319MB
360 2011-06-29 08:42:38 <Eremes> lol
361 2011-06-29 08:42:45 <topi`> that's about it :D
362 2011-06-29 08:42:49 <sipa> Eremes: yes, so?
363 2011-06-29 08:43:08 <topi`> it will take *several* hours to download all that block data
364 2011-06-29 08:43:15 <lfm> Eremes: ya evey one on the net has copies of those files, we call them the block chain (and index)
365 2011-06-29 08:43:34 <topi`> index can be rebuilt I think
366 2011-06-29 08:43:51 <Eremes> so which one that grow bigger ? blk0001.dat or blkindex.dat ?
367 2011-06-29 08:43:57 <Eremes> how big they can become ?
368 2011-06-29 08:44:01 <topi`> they grow in sync
369 2011-06-29 08:44:24 <topi`> they will grow by 50KB by every transaction that is 50K in size...
370 2011-06-29 08:44:25 <lfm> ya theoreticlly the index could be rebuilt, I dont know if that function actually would work nor how
371 2011-06-29 08:44:40 <topi`> I mean block. and there'll be 6 new blocks every hour.
372 2011-06-29 08:44:43 <topi`> so calculate from that :)
373 2011-06-29 08:44:50 <Eremes> so I should put around 1GB for truecrypt container , is it enough ?
374 2011-06-29 08:45:01 <mtrlt> you dont have to encrypt the block chain
375 2011-06-29 08:45:01 <sipa> for now
376 2011-06-29 08:45:10 <topi`> for a while, depends on how big the avg block size will grow...
377 2011-06-29 08:45:11 <sipa> but only wallet.dat needs encryption
378 2011-06-29 08:45:28 <sipa> and 0.4.0 will allow encryption of wallet.dat's sensitive parts by the application itself
379 2011-06-29 08:45:30 <lfm> Eremes: there is no way to know the number of transactions and they mostly set the size, it could be more than 50k
380 2011-06-29 08:45:44 <topi`> I just have a bitcoin.sh script that uses openssl to decrypt the wallet, then launch bitcion app, and then encrypt wallet again
381 2011-06-29 08:47:47 <sacarlson> topi: when bitcoin is running doesn't the file get writen too when you transact?  so you couldn't encryt it when it was running could you?
382 2011-06-29 08:48:12 <lfm> sacarlson: true, not till new version
383 2011-06-29 08:48:42 <sacarlson> lfm: ok
384 2011-06-29 08:49:14 <lfm> sacarlson: its a good idea to have separate offline wallet with bulk funds then just put what you need day to day online
385 2011-06-29 08:49:15 <topi`> sacarlson: my script encrypts the wallet after bitcion client exits
386 2011-06-29 08:49:33 <topi`> (I don't leave Bitcoin client running, only when I occasionally watch if I have received donations :)
387 2011-06-29 08:50:25 <zamgo> haha.. it works!
388 2011-06-29 08:50:45 <zamgo> modified isMine and *CHECKSIG* to always report true.... and bitcoin client becomes a 'view all' client
389 2011-06-29 08:51:33 <zamgo> well, works for a bit, then crashes
390 2011-06-29 08:51:39 <lianj> ^^
391 2011-06-29 08:52:36 <lfm> zamgo lol
392 2011-06-29 08:53:14 <topi`> zamgo, no surprise :D that's a HUGE amount of data
393 2011-06-29 08:53:23 <topi`> for wxwidgets to deal, for one
394 2011-06-29 08:53:25 <mtrlt> lol
395 2011-06-29 08:53:54 <zamgo> way huge amount
396 2011-06-29 08:54:10 <zamgo> doing it in bitcoind now
397 2011-06-29 08:54:19 <sacarlson> zamgo: how long is a bit?  10 minits?
398 2011-06-29 08:54:37 <zamgo> not sure
399 2011-06-29 08:55:42 <lfm> almost 200 thousand addresses currently WITH FUNDS. let alone old ones not used any more
400 2011-06-29 08:58:05 <lfm> over 400 thousand trznsaction outputs with outstanding balances, so averages more than 2 values per address
401 2011-06-29 08:59:20 <mtrlt> well if it's 200 thousand addresses and around 6 million bitcoins, it's 30 BTC per address on average :P
402 2011-06-29 08:59:41 <lfm> make sense
403 2011-06-29 08:59:49 <mtrlt> i think they're not really distributed equally tho
404 2011-06-29 09:00:08 <lfm> mtrlt: true
405 2011-06-29 09:00:31 <lfm> max unspent value: 424242.42 at block: 132749 2011-06-23 06:50:15
406 2011-06-29 09:00:37 <mtrlt> lol
407 2011-06-29 09:01:16 <mtrlt> but. 200k addresses. at 10^9 address generations per second.. how long would it take on average to find an address with money? let's see
408 2011-06-29 09:01:24 <mtrlt> 10^9 is extra optimistic
409 2011-06-29 09:01:44 <lfm> mtrlt: one chance in 2^160 each try
410 2011-06-29 09:01:50 <topi`> ok, if anyone wants to have a nice bash script (that I've tested for my own purposes) for en/decrypting the wallet.dat before launching bitcoin, please have a look at : http://lorelei.kaverit.org/bitcoin.sh
411 2011-06-29 09:02:15 <lfm> or 200k / 2^160
412 2011-06-29 09:02:38 <mtrlt> hmph
413 2011-06-29 09:02:40 <mtrlt> wolfram alpha chokes
414 2011-06-29 09:03:02 <lfm> useless hunk of junk!
415 2011-06-29 09:03:12 <mtrlt> to think i trusted it! :(
416 2011-06-29 09:04:50 <mtrlt> okay i think the answer is around 10^26 years
417 2011-06-29 09:05:05 <zamgo> hmm.. view-all can only get up to block 169
418 2011-06-29 09:05:09 <lfm> better get started soon if you want to get any
419 2011-06-29 09:05:16 <mtrlt> yep
420 2011-06-29 09:05:32 <mtrlt> or alternatively get incredibly lucky
421 2011-06-29 09:05:48 <lfm> or just wait for faster computers
422 2011-06-29 09:06:19 <mtrlt> you might have to wait forever :P
423 2011-06-29 09:06:55 <lfm> naw, lets see if you had 1000 cores then you need only wait for 2^23 years! a vast improvement
424 2011-06-29 09:08:03 <topi`> maybe it would be useful to put a bitcoin encrypt/decrypt script into the bitcoin wiki? if some user wants to have crypt that way
425 2011-06-29 09:08:17 <topi`> otherwise it's tedious to manually use openssl enc every time you open your wallet
426 2011-06-29 09:08:25 <topi`> tedious and error prone
427 2011-06-29 09:08:30 <zamgo> ok, I'm gonna do a screenshot of this.....
428 2011-06-29 09:08:31 <lfm> oh wait 2^17 years
429 2011-06-29 09:08:54 <lfm> amazing
430 2011-06-29 09:09:02 <b4epoche_> hmm...  might Marco be a bitcoiner?  http://www.marco.org/
431 2011-06-29 09:09:23 <lfm> so a million cores would only be 2^7 years, much more manageable
432 2011-06-29 09:09:38 <mtrlt> lfm: my number was 10^26, not 2^26 :P
433 2011-06-29 09:09:41 <lfm> that 128 years
434 2011-06-29 09:10:03 <lfm> oh pout! spoilsprt
435 2011-06-29 09:10:03 <mtrlt> ~2^86
436 2011-06-29 09:10:09 <mtrlt> ;-)
437 2011-06-29 09:10:33 <lfm> ok so a million core is back up to 10^20 years
438 2011-06-29 09:10:51 <mtrlt> IF one core actually could do 10^9 per second
439 2011-06-29 09:10:56 <mtrlt> but they can't
440 2011-06-29 09:11:20 <mtrlt> i'd be very surprised if a CPU did even a million
441 2011-06-29 09:11:30 <lfm> gpus? but they are multicore already arnt they
442 2011-06-29 09:12:01 <mtrlt> dunno
443 2011-06-29 09:12:07 <mtrlt> someone needs to implement GPU address generation :P
444 2011-06-29 09:12:08 <lfm> and its hash160 not hash256 so that saves a bit
445 2011-06-29 09:12:30 <mtrlt> um
446 2011-06-29 09:12:43 <mtrlt> addresses are version + ripemd160(sha256(publickey)) + checksum
447 2011-06-29 09:13:10 <lfm> only need checksum for base58 address
448 2011-06-29 09:13:15 <mtrlt> and calculating pubkey from privkey requires an EC multiplication which is not simple :p
449 2011-06-29 09:13:38 <mtrlt> yea you only need the ripemd hash.
450 2011-06-29 09:14:11 <lfm> ok ya that ec crap is kinda slow
451 2011-06-29 09:14:24 <zamgo> ok... the "View All" modified client... that stops at block 169.  Screenshot:  http://imagebin.org/160546
452 2011-06-29 09:14:40 <zamgo> 1st block,  01/09/2009 04:02
453 2011-06-29 09:16:02 <lfm> zamgo hehe block 170 was the very first transaction!
454 2011-06-29 09:16:23 <lfm> outside coinbase txn
455 2011-06-29 09:17:01 <zamgo> so it needs more bypasses
456 2011-06-29 09:17:08 <lfm> maybe a clue for your debugging, grin
457 2011-06-29 09:17:13 <zamgo> ;)
458 2011-06-29 09:18:31 <zamgo> needs more cowbells
459 2011-06-29 09:19:57 <zamgo> command line option   -pretendtobeeveryone
460 2011-06-29 09:27:17 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ah, ok yea ThreadTopUpKeyPool was retarded, fixed, and getnewaddress should have tried to get an address, but that should theoretically never be a problem as walletpassphrase should trigger it, and it should refill itself everywhere
461 2011-06-29 09:28:37 <denisx> hi, is anybody using this pollidfile patch for pushpoold?
462 2011-06-29 09:28:55 <denisx> it works for me, but it is always one block behind, maybe it is TOO fast? ;)
463 2011-06-29 09:33:46 <prof7bit> oh, i got coins last night! A big thank you to the unknown donator!
464 2011-06-29 09:34:06 <BlueMatt> hey, how come I never get donations ;)
465 2011-06-29 09:34:36 <prof7bit> it came through the address that I have set up for donations related to TorChat
466 2011-06-29 09:34:57 <Eremes> great, power losss
467 2011-06-29 09:34:58 <b4epoche_> BlueMatt:  do you still get an allowance?
468 2011-06-29 09:35:24 <BlueMatt> lol, no
469 2011-06-29 09:35:29 <BlueMatt> I wish
470 2011-06-29 09:36:20 <b4epoche_> where in EU are you?
471 2011-06-29 09:36:32 <BlueMatt> just outside of frankfurt, de
472 2011-06-29 09:36:37 <b4epoche_> ah, right
473 2011-06-29 09:37:04 <b4epoche_> take the train up to Copenhagen...  great place
474 2011-06-29 09:37:20 <topi`> euro is going to suck a lot in the future, thanks to the bankers who invested in greece... so now it's time to put the money in BTC :)
475 2011-06-29 09:37:36 <BlueMatt> ...or something a bit more...stable?
476 2011-06-29 09:37:52 <topi`> well, BTC has been stable for at least a couple of days ;)
477 2011-06-29 09:38:00 <lfm> greece and portugal and ireland &&
478 2011-06-29 09:38:29 <topi`> the whole concept of "debt" is an invention of the bankers
479 2011-06-29 09:38:47 <topi`> well, not debt itself but the aspect of "interest over interest", i.e. compound interest
480 2011-06-29 09:39:18 <BlueMatt> money is an invention of the bankers ;)
481 2011-06-29 09:40:08 <topi`> the compound interest is a great invention; it made its early adopters filthy rich
482 2011-06-29 09:40:19 <b4epoche_> the ancient bankers
483 2011-06-29 09:40:27 <topi`> and still makes some individuals rich
484 2011-06-29 09:40:51 <topi`> I've read a lot of comments about how wrong it is that the early adopters of bitcoin are the ones who benefit most
485 2011-06-29 09:41:10 <topi`> I remember saying it aloud myself as well :) but, when comparing with the history of banking, it's just the same...
486 2011-06-29 09:41:21 <phedny> as with Google stock ;)
487 2011-06-29 09:41:24 <b4epoche_> topi`:  are you talking 'compound interest' in the usual sense?
488 2011-06-29 09:41:52 <topi`> b4epoche_: well that, and of course when some loans are paid back by taking new loans
489 2011-06-29 09:41:57 <b4epoche_> what's wrong with that?
490 2011-06-29 09:42:14 <topi`> that's basically why greece is unable to pay back its debt
491 2011-06-29 09:42:18 <lfm> same with insurance
492 2011-06-29 09:42:40 <b4epoche_> compound interest is the only way that makes sense
493 2011-06-29 09:43:05 <b4epoche_> compound interest isn't stupid, Greece is
494 2011-06-29 09:44:36 <mtrlt> but you're also moving payments to the future
495 2011-06-29 09:44:40 <mtrlt> that costs :)
496 2011-06-29 09:44:51 <topi`> it does *not* make any sense to pay double of the house
497 2011-06-29 09:45:04 <mtrlt> moving. payment. to. future.
498 2011-06-29 09:45:15 <mtrlt> unless you paid for everything without debt :P
499 2011-06-29 09:45:21 <topi`> mtrlt: some religions, like islam, prohibit that
500 2011-06-29 09:45:24 <b4epoche_> topi`:  yes it does because there's time involved
501 2011-06-29 09:45:25 <mtrlt> yea
502 2011-06-29 09:45:27 <mtrlt> i know
503 2011-06-29 09:45:33 <topi`> I think it's a wise thing to do
504 2011-06-29 09:45:38 <mtrlt> islam prohibits insurance too, afaik
505 2011-06-29 09:45:55 <prof7bit> <topi`> mtrlt: some religions, like islam, prohibit that  <-- and for a good reason, as it now becomes obvious.
506 2011-06-29 09:46:04 <lfm> it kinda human nature to want things before you can actually afford them
507 2011-06-29 09:46:15 <topi`> b4epoche_: anyhow, no debt ought to be such a debt that no matter how many years you put into paying it back, it results impossible
508 2011-06-29 09:46:18 <phedny> it's human nature to want things
509 2011-06-29 09:46:19 <mtrlt> but islamic banks take the "interest" in another form :P
510 2011-06-29 09:46:27 <topi`> (because the interest runs quicker than the amount of money paid back annually)
511 2011-06-29 09:46:28 <phedny> regardless of whether or when you can afford them
512 2011-06-29 09:46:54 <topi`> lfm: it's also called "investment" ;)
513 2011-06-29 09:46:57 <b4epoche_> topi`:  well, just don't pay the 'minimum'
514 2011-06-29 09:47:16 <topi`> b4epoche_: I was just thinking of the country of Greece
515 2011-06-29 09:47:41 <b4epoche_> it's like with your credit card, if you just pay the minimum each month it'll take years to pay off and you'll have paid a shit-load in interest
516 2011-06-29 09:47:59 <mtrlt> that's why i dont have a credit card :)
517 2011-06-29 09:48:01 <b4epoche_> topi`:  yea, well Greece shouldn't be just paying the minimum
518 2011-06-29 09:48:03 <mtrlt> nobody needs that shit
519 2011-06-29 09:48:16 <cacheson> BlueMatt: indeed, it gets old
520 2011-06-29 09:48:43 <b4epoche_> bankers aren't evil...  they serve a purpose (to fleece stupid people ;-) )
521 2011-06-29 09:49:02 <b4epoche_> it's just Darwinian economics
522 2011-06-29 09:49:07 <BlueMatt> yay darwin
523 2011-06-29 09:49:29 <BlueMatt> yay darwin awards
524 2011-06-29 09:49:37 <topi`> BlueMatt: but bankers *are* evil, no matter what bitcoin does :)
525 2011-06-29 09:49:51 <denisx> yeah, my LP was 20sek faster than btcguild ;)
526 2011-06-29 09:49:57 <phedny> that's only because society allows them
527 2011-06-29 09:49:57 <topi`> any way you look at it, they take exorbitant fees to run a system that is inefficient
528 2011-06-29 09:50:02 <b4epoche_> hmm...  I wish Idiocracy had explored the banking system in the future
529 2011-06-29 09:50:17 <cacheson> topi`: that happens in any government-protected industry
530 2011-06-29 09:50:29 <topi`> cacheson: good observation.
531 2011-06-29 09:50:48 <cacheson> topi`: I think we need a different word for it.  "evil" is too sensationalistic
532 2011-06-29 09:51:01 <phedny> greedy
533 2011-06-29 09:51:19 <b4epoche_> well, then the debtors are greedy too
534 2011-06-29 09:51:29 <b4epoche_> wanting more than they can afford
535 2011-06-29 09:51:33 <cacheson> phedny: possibly, but many of the same bitcoiners that label the bankers as evil will praise greed as well
536 2011-06-29 09:51:44 <phedny> cacheson: true.. so how are they better
537 2011-06-29 09:51:53 <prof7bit> credit cards are a clever invention to make even people who don't need to borrow money borrow at all money all day long.
538 2011-06-29 09:52:05 <phedny> the only difference is that Bitcoin is a system one can get a share in more easily than in the well established banking economy
539 2011-06-29 09:52:18 <prof7bit> (now bring the above words into the corect order)
540 2011-06-29 09:52:27 <b4epoche_> phedny:  buy 5-year CDs
541 2011-06-29 09:52:58 <prof7bit> ...who don't need to borrow money at all borrow money all day long.
542 2011-06-29 09:53:14 <prof7bit> almost as much as they own
543 2011-06-29 09:53:56 <b4epoche_> somewhere in this culture, pay-it-forward got lost
544 2011-06-29 09:54:02 <phedny> another clever thing in credit cards is that a lot of people are making money on them.. not only Visa and MasterCard, but also the banks and PSPs and such.. all those people making money on transactions want it to stay
545 2011-06-29 09:54:35 <b4epoche_> like in Taiwan (at least 15 years ago) most houses were bought and paid for the same day...  by the parents
546 2011-06-29 09:55:44 <b4epoche_> phedny:  credit cards are a very good thing (just like knives)
547 2011-06-29 09:56:08 <phedny> b4epoche_: they're nice.. but "very good"?
548 2011-06-29 09:56:14 <b4epoche_> yes
549 2011-06-29 09:56:41 <phedny> I got my first credit card, because I needed it to rent a card in the US
550 2011-06-29 09:56:42 <prof7bit> if you *own* money you dont need a credit card, you could pay cash or with EC card
551 2011-06-29 09:57:01 <phedny> car *
552 2011-06-29 09:57:10 <phedny> rent a card.. that might be an interesting concept :)
553 2011-06-29 09:57:14 <b4epoche_> cash is too easily stolen or lost...
554 2011-06-29 09:57:14 <prof7bit> if you dont own money then you wont get a CC anyways.
555 2011-06-29 09:57:30 <prof7bit> b4epoche: then use EC
556 2011-06-29 09:57:48 <phedny> b4epoche_: in The Netherlands we're using what probably best resembles a debit card in the US for years
557 2011-06-29 09:58:04 <b4epoche_> yea, debit cards are better (and all I use)
558 2011-06-29 09:58:30 <b4epoche_> it's the system of not demanding the balance be paid off that is not good
559 2011-06-29 09:59:04 <phedny> well.. that's just a business model
560 2011-06-29 09:59:16 <phedny> which exploits a flaw in human behavior, so to say
561 2011-06-29 09:59:19 <b4epoche_> loaning money to people that can't pay it back is what's bad
562 2011-06-29 09:59:31 <phedny> true
563 2011-06-29 09:59:51 <phedny> at one side that's a moral discussion by the way
564 2011-06-29 09:59:55 <phedny> at the other side it's just risk management
565 2011-06-29 10:00:04 <prof7bit> using debt as money is the real root of all evil
566 2011-06-29 10:00:32 <b4epoche_> shitty business, but an easy way to build inventory
567 2011-06-29 10:01:18 <b4epoche_> debt isn't bad...  think about all the loans doctors wind up taking to get through med school
568 2011-06-29 10:02:52 <prof7bit> its the usage of debt as a currency that is bad.
569 2011-06-29 10:03:50 <b4epoche_> but that's inevitable...  there's value to debt
570 2011-06-29 10:05:37 <prof7bit> its the system that encourages it and makes it seem inevitable. there are alternative systems. they even have been tested and found to work exceptionally well, thats why they were banned.
571 2011-06-29 10:06:36 <prof7bit> w??rgl for example
572 2011-06-29 10:06:56 <prof7bit> would be an idea for bitcoin-2.0
573 2011-06-29 10:07:25 <jeremias> well, bitcoin has turned me to a conspiracy-theorist nutcase
574 2011-06-29 10:07:35 <jeremias> previously i used to be normal
575 2011-06-29 10:07:42 <b4epoche_> nutcase is someone's nick?
576 2011-06-29 10:07:45 <jeremias> now i'm babbling all the time about bitcoins
577 2011-06-29 10:07:55 <ersi> blah blah
578 2011-06-29 10:15:15 <topi`> i'm encrypting my wallet with aes256, any ideas how many years it will take to crack it?
579 2011-06-29 10:15:25 <BlueMatt> 2.7
580 2011-06-29 10:15:35 <topi`> let's say that in the future, we'll have double the hashing power of today
581 2011-06-29 10:15:39 <topi`> next year
582 2011-06-29 10:15:49 <BlueMatt> it will always take 2.7 years
583 2011-06-29 10:15:51 <BlueMatt> always
584 2011-06-29 10:16:00 <wumpus> lol
585 2011-06-29 10:16:04 <b4epoche_> and /exactly/ 2.7 years
586 2011-06-29 10:16:28 <wumpus> if you want it to last longer, encrypt it multiple times :p
587 2011-06-29 10:17:20 <phedny> the second round adds 1/2 of 2.7 years
588 2011-06-29 10:17:28 <phedny> the third round adds 1/4 of 2.7 years
589 2011-06-29 10:17:30 <prof7bit> change the password every 2.7 years
590 2011-06-29 10:17:33 <topi`> prof7bit: I think bitcoin 1.0 is already achieving some of the advantages against debt money
591 2011-06-29 10:17:37 <prof7bit> every 2.69
592 2011-06-29 10:17:42 <topi`> prof7bit: I'm writing an article to prove my point ;)
593 2011-06-29 10:18:32 <topi`> the nicest point is the *controlled* inflation that stops at some point
594 2011-06-29 10:18:51 <topi`> since it will change the dynamics involved in debt
595 2011-06-29 10:20:54 <prof7bit> banks could start creating book money, not fully backed by existing BTC and thus create inflation.
596 2011-06-29 10:21:49 <Nachtwind> hi, i have a debian squeeze and when i start bitcoind --daemon the server crashes after a while after refusing to accept any incoming traffic like HTTP and so on. Has anyone an idea about that?
597 2011-06-29 10:23:29 <lfm> dont use -daemon
598 2011-06-29 10:24:33 <Nachtwind> Dont i need -daemon if i want to run it on a webserver?
599 2011-06-29 10:24:52 <lfm> not sure why
600 2011-06-29 10:26:49 <Nachtwind> ok... giving that a try
601 2011-06-29 10:26:57 <Nachtwind> i think it has to do with memory
602 2011-06-29 10:27:10 <Nachtwind> i have only very limited ressources (500MB Ram) on my VPS
603 2011-06-29 10:29:08 <lfm> ok that might be it.  566m 270m (virt, resident) on my system
604 2011-06-29 10:29:59 <b4epoche_> whoa...
605 2011-06-29 10:30:12 <lfm> b4epoche?
606 2011-06-29 10:30:22 <b4epoche_> that seems excessive
607 2011-06-29 10:30:31 <lfm> you figgure?
608 2011-06-29 10:30:37 <b4epoche_> but if you've got empty RAM
609 2011-06-29 10:30:59 <lfm> ya bdb may be slurping up extra buffers
610 2011-06-29 10:31:18 <BitcoinForNewegg> i got 16 GB ram on my server :)
611 2011-06-29 10:31:26 <BitcoinForNewegg> and 16x 6950 on the way :)
612 2011-06-29 10:31:29 <b4epoche_> might there be memory leaks?
613 2011-06-29 10:31:44 <lfm> BitcoinForNewegg: can you check how much bitcoin is taking?
614 2011-06-29 10:31:59 <lfm> memory leaks are always possible
615 2011-06-29 10:32:21 <b4epoche_> sure...  has anyone 'audited' for them?
616 2011-06-29 10:32:38 <BitcoinForNewegg> 104 MB but I just turned on the computer
617 2011-06-29 10:32:57 <lfm> I think there are various checks for memory, not sure how effective they can be with C++
618 2011-06-29 10:33:25 <BitcoinForNewegg> ummmm now it takes 0
619 2011-06-29 10:33:29 <BitcoinForNewegg> and increasing
620 2011-06-29 10:33:35 <b4epoche_> but I would think if there are any major ones someone would have noticed by now
621 2011-06-29 10:33:36 <BitcoinForNewegg> now 80 mb
622 2011-06-29 10:33:48 <BitcoinForNewegg> wtf is with this lol
623 2011-06-29 10:33:57 <lfm> using top?
624 2011-06-29 10:34:14 <BitcoinForNewegg> top?
625 2011-06-29 10:34:19 <BitcoinForNewegg> its windows
626 2011-06-29 10:34:23 <BitcoinForNewegg> just looking in taskmgr
627 2011-06-29 10:34:57 <BitcoinForNewegg> upon minimizing bitcoin client it goes to 0 usage :/
628 2011-06-29 10:34:57 <lfm> BitcoinForNewegg: oh sorry
629 2011-06-29 10:35:36 <BlueMatt> anyone a bdb expert?
630 2011-06-29 10:36:07 <lfm> Im a bs expert?
631 2011-06-29 10:36:28 <b4epoche_> my client is using like 32MB
632 2011-06-29 10:36:34 <BitcoinForNewegg> lfm how did you become a BS expert?
633 2011-06-29 10:36:45 <lfm> practice
634 2011-06-29 10:36:46 <b4epoche_> practice
635 2011-06-29 10:36:48 <BitcoinForNewegg> did you always want to become one as a child?
636 2011-06-29 10:36:51 <b4epoche_> ninja'd
637 2011-06-29 10:36:59 <lfm> my father was one too
638 2011-06-29 10:37:09 <BitcoinForNewegg> ahhh yoy learned from the best
639 2011-06-29 10:37:56 <lfm> my favorite bs is when I actuallt tell the truth and no one beleives me
640 2011-06-29 10:39:13 <prof7bit> yes, this is the highest level a BS expert can achieve, BS that is actually true.
641 2011-06-29 10:39:31 <lfm> the victim misleads themselves
642 2011-06-29 10:39:47 <BitcoinForNewegg> well, a broken clock is correct around twice a day
643 2011-06-29 10:40:06 <BitcoinForNewegg> sometimes mor sometimes less
644 2011-06-29 10:40:21 <prof7bit> you must be able to produce this more often than probability would predict
645 2011-06-29 10:40:24 <BitcoinForNewegg> could be up to 4 times
646 2011-06-29 10:40:27 <b4epoche_> broken != not functioning
647 2011-06-29 10:40:28 <BitcoinForNewegg> or as little as 0
648 2011-06-29 10:40:36 <lfm> BitcoinForNewegg: more on shorter days and less on longer ones?
649 2011-06-29 10:40:44 <BitcoinForNewegg> depending on leap seconds and daylight savings
650 2011-06-29 10:41:32 <BitcoinForNewegg> anyone try to roll their own time code recently?
651 2011-06-29 10:41:41 <BitcoinForNewegg> good luck it is IMPOSSIBLE
652 2011-06-29 10:41:48 <b4epoche_> a running clock is /never/ exactly correct, while a stop on is exactly correct once a day
653 2011-06-29 10:41:49 <lfm> does anyone really know what time it is?
654 2011-06-29 10:42:53 <BitcoinForNewegg> a runnign one can be correct
655 2011-06-29 10:43:03 <BitcoinForNewegg> i know exactly what time it is, I only have one watch
656 2011-06-29 10:43:15 <BitcoinForNewegg> +/- .25 seconds
657 2011-06-29 10:43:22 <prof7bit> the next time will be found and defined when someone find something new to post in this channel. it will be persisted in the log.
658 2011-06-29 10:43:24 <lfm> down to the nanosecond I supose
659 2011-06-29 10:43:34 <BitcoinForNewegg> .25 seconds is good enough for me
660 2011-06-29 10:43:46 <BitcoinForNewegg> but if my watch was off by 10 seconds it would big me to no end
661 2011-06-29 10:43:46 <lfm> ok so not really then
662 2011-06-29 10:43:54 <BitcoinForNewegg> bug*
663 2011-06-29 10:44:05 <BitcoinForNewegg> it is an atomic solar powered watch :)
664 2011-06-29 10:44:08 <BitcoinForNewegg> and waterproof
665 2011-06-29 10:44:16 <BitcoinForNewegg> and shock resistant :)
666 2011-06-29 10:44:46 <topi`> bitcoind is a bit memory hungry, I've managed to run it on a 256MB linux server, but that's definitely the absolute minimum
667 2011-06-29 10:44:59 <BitcoinForNewegg> the clockchain is already over 100M
668 2011-06-29 10:45:12 <lfm> ya so it accurate to somewher from 0.25 sec to 10.0 seconds, in other words, not very
669 2011-06-29 10:45:20 <BitcoinForNewegg> no .25 max
670 2011-06-29 10:45:33 <BitcoinForNewegg> quartz watches are accurate to around 1 second a day
671 2011-06-29 10:45:44 <BitcoinForNewegg> mine resets every day at 3:00 AM
672 2011-06-29 10:45:50 <lfm> can you really set them that accurate?
673 2011-06-29 10:45:57 <BitcoinForNewegg> yes
674 2011-06-29 10:46:06 <lfm> ok, not manual setting
675 2011-06-29 10:46:08 <BitcoinForNewegg> I have compared it with real atomic clocks
676 2011-06-29 10:46:20 <BitcoinForNewegg> it is accurate to the point I cannot tell the difference
677 2011-06-29 10:46:50 <lfm> and when a buddy asks you what time you think it is ...
678 2011-06-29 10:46:55 <BitcoinForNewegg> i give seconds
679 2011-06-29 10:46:57 <BitcoinForNewegg> :)
680 2011-06-29 10:47:11 <BitcoinForNewegg> i say right 'now' it is
681 2011-06-29 10:47:13 <lfm> yup, aproximate again
682 2011-06-29 10:47:28 <BitcoinForNewegg> now takes aroudn a second to say so its correct
683 2011-06-29 10:48:09 <lfm> correctly aproximate
684 2011-06-29 10:48:17 <BitcoinForNewegg> no it is exact
685 2011-06-29 10:48:29 <BitcoinForNewegg> to the best of my abiity to measure it, it is exact
686 2011-06-29 10:48:31 <lfm> =/- 0.5
687 2011-06-29 10:48:36 <BitcoinForNewegg> .25
688 2011-06-29 10:49:06 <lfm> so your just confirming to me you dont know what time it is.
689 2011-06-29 10:49:07 <BitcoinForNewegg> i have held it next to a real atomic clock (not a radio one)
690 2011-06-29 10:49:26 <BitcoinForNewegg> and it was indistinguishable by humans
691 2011-06-29 10:49:41 <lfm> ya, humans are lousy at time
692 2011-06-29 10:49:57 <BitcoinForNewegg> it is exact as far as peopel are concerned
693 2011-06-29 10:50:35 <lfm> if you got the right month it would be good enuf for most humans
694 2011-06-29 10:50:45 <sacarlson> BitcoinForNewegg: so is this clock going to run forever or just for 2 more hours?
695 2011-06-29 10:51:04 <BitcoinForNewegg> well, it depends on how much time I spend in the sun, or lighting
696 2011-06-29 10:51:27 <BitcoinForNewegg> if I sit in a dark room for a week or 2 (true story) it loses its battery
697 2011-06-29 10:51:40 <BitcoinForNewegg> happens more than I woudl like :(
698 2011-06-29 10:52:51 <BitcoinForNewegg> anyone here play EvE?
699 2011-06-29 10:52:58 <sacarlson> BitcoinForNewegg: well since the sun is estimated to burn for another 5 billion years I guess we are set then
700 2011-06-29 10:53:13 <BitcoinForNewegg> yep it wil alst longer than I will
701 2011-06-29 10:53:33 <BitcoinForNewegg> the watch is feature complete
702 2011-06-29 10:53:57 <BitcoinForNewegg> well, maybe a radiation detector.... but it does everythig i want it to
703 2011-06-29 10:54:22 <prof7bit> <BitcoinForNewegg> if I sit in a dark room for a week or 2 (true story) it loses its battery  <--- solar powered watches are not for programmers!
704 2011-06-29 10:54:28 <BitcoinForNewegg> the gvnt did make a gamma detector asic
705 2011-06-29 10:54:40 <BitcoinForNewegg> ya i need to program in the light
706 2011-06-29 10:54:45 <BitcoinForNewegg> but that was mnore a video game
707 2011-06-29 10:55:09 <BitcoinForNewegg> I found that I coudl build somethign insure it, and have it get killed by police... and I made about 3-7%
708 2011-06-29 10:55:27 <BitcoinForNewegg> so soon enough I was using multiuple accounts to do that 24/7
709 2011-06-29 10:56:02 <BitcoinForNewegg> i destroyed about $50k of digital goods
710 2011-06-29 10:56:56 <lfm> sounds kinda ocd
711 2011-06-29 10:57:00 <BitcoinForNewegg> it represents around 100k hours of someone elses time to gather it
712 2011-06-29 10:57:26 <BitcoinForNewegg> i got the game makers to patch it
713 2011-06-29 10:57:28 <BitcoinForNewegg> :)
714 2011-06-29 10:57:34 <BitcoinForNewegg> they oatch everythign I do
715 2011-06-29 10:57:38 <BitcoinForNewegg> p[atch*
716 2011-06-29 10:58:38 <sacarlson> any one want to try a escrow transaction on testnet or mainnet?
717 2011-06-29 11:01:44 <lfm> sacarlson: you need a patched client then a patched miner dont you?
718 2011-06-29 11:02:11 <sacarlson> lfm: it works on testnet and weedsnet not sure about mainnet
719 2011-06-29 11:02:26 <sacarlson> lfm: I have 2 different patched clients
720 2011-06-29 11:03:14 <lfm> so the miners accept escow transactions? dont they use special scripts?
721 2011-06-29 11:03:31 <lfm> escrow
722 2011-06-29 11:04:09 <sacarlson> https://github.com/sacarlson/MultiCoin will work on testnet and weedsnet and maybe mainnet,  and https://github.com/groffer/bitcoin works on testnet and maybe mainnet
723 2011-06-29 11:04:48 <sacarlson> lfm: good question as some say some do and some say none do
724 2011-06-29 11:05:46 <sacarlson> work on mainnet as luke-jr says his does
725 2011-06-29 11:06:50 <sacarlson> only one way to prove or disprove by risking the money I was given to try .01 btc with .005 transaction fee
726 2011-06-29 11:07:13 <sacarlson> given to anyone who will accept it
727 2011-06-29 11:13:54 <sacarlson> I hope beertokens doesn't take over the world just because they are the only real crypto currency with escrow just because bitcoin never wanted to try it
728 2011-06-29 11:14:25 <topi`> :D
729 2011-06-29 11:14:28 <BlueMatt> bitcoin will, its just not as high on the priorities list as many other things
730 2011-06-29 11:14:49 <BlueMatt> first we need wallet crypto and to clean up a ton of code
731 2011-06-29 11:14:50 <topi`> I don't feel escrow as a big problem
732 2011-06-29 11:15:05 <topi`> and it's a good service model for a small business
733 2011-06-29 11:15:06 <BlueMatt> and IsStandard will probably be changed in the next couple version...
734 2011-06-29 11:15:24 <topi`> I think escrow should *not* be in the base protocol
735 2011-06-29 11:15:26 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: topi: good to know, I'm just pushing your bottons
736 2011-06-29 11:15:34 <BlueMatt> actual escrow in satoshi client, well probably not anytime near soon
737 2011-06-29 11:15:50 <BlueMatt> but in IsStandard, probably not /too/ far off
738 2011-06-29 11:15:53 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: huh? escrow should totally get implemented as blockchain scripts
739 2011-06-29 11:16:10 <denisx> is someone using this patch? http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22585.80
740 2011-06-29 11:16:16 <denisx> it has an error
741 2011-06-29 11:16:16 <sacarlson> topi: it should be tested in the testnets of weeds an testnet and posibly beertokens to verify it's stable
742 2011-06-29 11:16:52 <topi`> jrmithdobbs: escrow is something that requires a *human* judge who's correct in his claims
743 2011-06-29 11:16:57 <topi`> so not a protocol issue.
744 2011-06-29 11:17:15 <topi`> it's just plain evil to have a power to revoke somebody's transaction
745 2011-06-29 11:17:35 <sacarlson> topi: well since we just lost the clearcoin.com I surprized there is not more of a push
746 2011-06-29 11:17:39 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: but the instruments to make it work should be in the protocol, finding the trustworthy third party is still an exercise for the user, obviously
747 2011-06-29 11:18:16 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: time is another 3rd party substitute
748 2011-06-29 11:18:39 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: i think it should use time and a 3rd party
749 2011-06-29 11:18:40 <sacarlson> or forever lost
750 2011-06-29 11:18:45 <jrmithdobbs> personally
751 2011-06-29 11:18:48 <jrmithdobbs> or at least be able to
752 2011-06-29 11:19:10 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: well the one that's released has votes of a group to release the money
753 2011-06-29 11:19:36 <jrmithdobbs> to do it time-based requires some disabled ops iirc
754 2011-06-29 11:20:18 <topi`> denisx: it's a very odd patch, since it detaches hthread and the next program flow returns that value of hthread (which might be invalid?)
755 2011-06-29 11:20:39 <topi`> sacarlson: what happened to clearcoin.com?
756 2011-06-29 11:20:47 <denisx> topi`: I have only used the native long poll patch
757 2011-06-29 11:20:52 <denisx> but it fires too early
758 2011-06-29 11:20:57 <sacarlson> topi: I was told it was closed
759 2011-06-29 11:21:34 <sacarlson> topi: it will remain open until the last contracts clear and accepts no more contracts
760 2011-06-29 11:22:06 <topi`> interesting
761 2011-06-29 11:22:44 <sacarlson> topi: the same day as this patch from groffer apeared so maybe a push to make it work?