1 2011-07-02 00:00:27 <Zarutian> jrmithdobbs: the cracks apeared because as the coordnates values got bigger the more inexact their representation as float became.
  2 2011-07-02 00:01:31 <jrmithdobbs> lol
  3 2011-07-02 00:01:40 <jrmithdobbs> why would you use bit floats for coords?
  4 2011-07-02 00:01:46 <jrmithdobbs> err s/bit/binary/
  5 2011-07-02 00:02:28 <Zarutian> jrmithdobbs: However if they (the producer) had used fixed point numerical type such as 64 bit ints then they could have placed objects with millimetre precision everywhere in their big game worlds.
  6 2011-07-02 00:02:58 <Zarutian> jrmithdobbs: I think they used floats due to the general misconception that floats == decimal fractions.
  7 2011-07-02 00:03:41 <Zarutian> jrmithdobbs: but you get what I was getting at with that example?
  8 2011-07-02 00:04:16 <kunnis> There's advantages to using floats for cordinate systems, there's advantages not to.
  9 2011-07-02 00:05:11 <lfm> what coordinate system(s)?
 10 2011-07-02 00:05:25 <kunnis> a 64 bit cordinate system is kinda rough.
 11 2011-07-02 00:05:26 <Zarutian> kunnis: my rule: only use floats when you know what you are doing and how the limitations of the floats could affect you.
 12 2011-07-02 00:06:02 <kunnis> I can understand that, but modern gpus want you to use floats for your cordinate system, otherwise you're doing a lot of un-nessicary remapping.
 13 2011-07-02 00:06:09 <lfm> floats are ok if you dont need exact values.
 14 2011-07-02 00:06:25 <kunnis> which are fine for 3d coordinate systems.
 15 2011-07-02 00:06:33 <Zarutian> kunnis: sure inside the rendering code but not inside the gameworld scenegraph.
 16 2011-07-02 00:06:59 <kunnis> But converting between scenegraph -> rendering would be expensive.
 17 2011-07-02 00:07:09 <kunnis> and that needs to be cheap
 18 2011-07-02 00:07:11 <Zarutian> specially when your scenegraph is chunked up like in dungeon siege
 19 2011-07-02 00:07:14 <lfm> sometimes for 3d you need corners to come together exact too
 20 2011-07-02 00:07:35 <kunnis> Why?
 21 2011-07-02 00:07:48 <lfm> you dont want holes in your corners
 22 2011-07-02 00:07:57 <kunnis> if they are within .000005%, they'll look together.
 23 2011-07-02 00:08:11 <kunnis> floats are good enough for that
 24 2011-07-02 00:08:24 <lfm> depends how much you magmify sometimes
 25 2011-07-02 00:08:24 <Zarutian> see holes in corners that destroyes the player suspension of disbelief
 26 2011-07-02 00:08:30 <lfm> manify
 27 2011-07-02 00:08:35 <lfm> magnify
 28 2011-07-02 00:08:52 <Zarutian> lfm: keyboard not coperative with you today?
 29 2011-07-02 00:09:10 <lfm> spelling is hard
 30 2011-07-02 00:09:32 <kunnis> floating point is accuratte to like 8 or 9 decimals, even at 1000x zoom, you still have .000005%
 31 2011-07-02 00:09:50 <Zarutian> hmm fast conversion between scenegrap and rendering can be simple as bitmasking and shifting.
 32 2011-07-02 00:10:07 <kunnis> not to float
 33 2011-07-02 00:10:11 <lfm> yup and if you go from 1000 miles away to 2 inches thats more than 1000x
 34 2011-07-02 00:10:15 <Zarutian> kunnis: yes, near the 0,0 origin
 35 2011-07-02 00:10:52 <Zarutian> kunnis: last was to your .000005% epsilon comment
 36 2011-07-02 00:11:36 <kunnis> I understand what you're saying about wher you are affecting the percision.
 37 2011-07-02 00:11:48 <kunnis> and my spelling being horrible... ti's still not that bad of a problem
 38 2011-07-02 00:12:02 <kunnis> lots of games use it, and they don't have amjor problems with  it
 39 2011-07-02 00:12:12 <Zarutian> fast conversion to floats? just bitmask the lower significant bits into the mantissa of the float
 40 2011-07-02 00:12:24 <lfm> of course it is solvable but you just need to watch carfully
 41 2011-07-02 00:12:39 <kunnis> Yeah, that's expensive
 42 2011-07-02 00:13:00 <Zarutian> depends on the arch
 43 2011-07-02 00:13:18 <Zarutian> s/arch/architecture/
 44 2011-07-02 00:14:05 <lfm> kunnis and a lot of games have resolution bugs too
 45 2011-07-02 00:14:13 <kunnis> afk for dinner, I wish I could discuss this further
 46 2011-07-02 00:14:29 <kunnis> true
 47 2011-07-02 00:15:03 <Zarutian> but anyway this was only a example I used to describe the concept of 'fetching the water over the creek' when solving a problem
 48 2011-07-02 00:16:03 <lfm> there is still a tradoff in graphics bewteen resolution and speed
 49 2011-07-02 00:16:26 <Zarutian> what I was discussing with jrmithdobbs was what problem buildsystems such as make solve
 50 2011-07-02 00:17:05 <BitcoinForNewegg> we need Chribba
 51 2011-07-02 00:17:09 <Zarutian> lfm: undoubtably but let me ask you this did PostScript use floats for its coordnate system?
 52 2011-07-02 00:17:22 <lfm> ya it did
 53 2011-07-02 00:18:01 <lfm> what Chribba?
 54 2011-07-02 00:18:11 <BitcoinForNewegg> we need a CHribba for bitcoin
 55 2011-07-02 00:18:18 <Zarutian> lfm: it did? I always though they just defined their units to be so absourdly small that no printing tech could surpass it.
 56 2011-07-02 00:18:21 <lfm> what is it
 57 2011-07-02 00:18:27 <BitcoinForNewegg> Who
 58 2011-07-02 00:18:31 <BitcoinForNewegg> google him
 59 2011-07-02 00:18:41 <Zarutian> some sort of escrow service or build system?
 60 2011-07-02 00:18:46 <BitcoinForNewegg> he is the most trusted person in a game where you trust noone
 61 2011-07-02 00:18:46 <Zarutian> aah, a guy
 62 2011-07-02 00:18:57 <lfm> Zarutian: I am pretty sure they use ieee doubles
 63 2011-07-02 00:19:10 <BitcoinForNewegg> you give him your $2000 item and someone else gives him $2030 of currency
 64 2011-07-02 00:19:31 <BitcoinForNewegg> he gives you $2000 of currency and gives the other guy the item
 65 2011-07-02 00:19:41 <Zarutian> lfm: you sure? I have heard of many implentations that used ieee doubles but I think the spec didnt specify it.
 66 2011-07-02 00:19:54 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: so basicly an escrow
 67 2011-07-02 00:20:08 <BitcoinForNewegg> yes, sadly bitcoin doesnt have one
 68 2011-07-02 00:20:53 <BitcoinForNewegg> and no clearcoin is not an escrow like chribba
 69 2011-07-02 00:20:53 <lfm> Zarutian: Oh, well I mostly just used ghostscript so I dont know a lot of examples. I have some Postscript reference books I could look it up I guess
 70 2011-07-02 00:21:08 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: so what is preventing Chribba from gathering trust with everyone and when he is holding a lot of bitcoins just abscond with them?
 71 2011-07-02 00:21:41 <Zarutian> (plus any items I might also be escrowing)
 72 2011-07-02 00:21:46 <BitcoinForNewegg> Chribba woudl never do that
 73 2011-07-02 00:21:48 <Zarutian> s/I/he/
 74 2011-07-02 00:22:06 <Zarutian> what _gurantee_ do you have that he wont?
 75 2011-07-02 00:22:12 <BitcoinForNewegg> Chribba is awesome
 76 2011-07-02 00:22:25 <BitcoinForNewegg> google him
 77 2011-07-02 00:22:28 <lfm> does he charge a fee?
 78 2011-07-02 00:22:30 <BitcoinForNewegg> yes
 79 2011-07-02 00:22:35 <BitcoinForNewegg> but he doesnt do bitcoin :(
 80 2011-07-02 00:22:41 <BitcoinForNewegg> he charges 300M isk
 81 2011-07-02 00:22:49 <BitcoinForNewegg> bitcoin needs someone like him
 82 2011-07-02 00:22:52 <Zarutian> eve or ??slensk kr??na?
 83 2011-07-02 00:22:56 <BitcoinForNewegg> eve
 84 2011-07-02 00:23:07 <BitcoinForNewegg> he does titan trades since titans cant be traded
 85 2011-07-02 00:23:19 <BitcoinForNewegg> eve has no tradebacks, just like bitcoin
 86 2011-07-02 00:23:33 <BitcoinForNewegg> bitcoin is what eve woudl be like if all you could do is mine veldspar and trade it in Jita
 87 2011-07-02 00:23:56 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: aah, I see. I have read about many Chribbas which have done exactly what you describe and then done exactly what I described.
 88 2011-07-02 00:24:09 <BitcoinForNewegg> The Chribba is too awesome for that
 89 2011-07-02 00:24:17 <BitcoinForNewegg> once a group wanted to attack him.....
 90 2011-07-02 00:24:27 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: which reminds me, is the protest still going on in Jita?
 91 2011-07-02 00:24:30 <BitcoinForNewegg> 300 people showed up to defend him (without him even having to ask)
 92 2011-07-02 00:24:35 <BitcoinForNewegg> protest?
 93 2011-07-02 00:24:41 <BitcoinForNewegg> i ahvent played eve much lately
 94 2011-07-02 00:24:49 <BitcoinForNewegg> the devs and that economist are out to get me
 95 2011-07-02 00:24:59 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: I havent played eve for years but still I heard about the bruhaha
 96 2011-07-02 00:25:01 <BitcoinForNewegg> stupid insurance fraud fixes :(
 97 2011-07-02 00:25:48 <BitcoinForNewegg> to be honest half the eve peopel would be happy Jita was attacked, and a quarter woudl be sad, and a quarter woudl be indifferent
 98 2011-07-02 00:26:49 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: Jita wasnt attacked just the indestructable memorial.
 99 2011-07-02 00:26:59 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: which is in Jita.
100 2011-07-02 00:27:33 <BitcoinForNewegg> ahh
101 2011-07-02 00:27:46 <BitcoinForNewegg> or maybe you were talking about the no-local bug
102 2011-07-02 00:28:05 <BitcoinForNewegg> whcih peopel lie about, it is 100% possible to not be noticed in local till ua re next to the victim
103 2011-07-02 00:28:13 <BitcoinForNewegg> using normal game mechanics
104 2011-07-02 00:28:22 <BitcoinForNewegg> I wont tell u how tho, jst that it is possible
105 2011-07-02 00:29:00 <BitcoinForNewegg> if I told you, they might change game mechanics to fix it, this is a result of them 'fixing' one of my other useful features
106 2011-07-02 00:29:04 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: I am talking about the protest, which is performed by attacking the memorial in Jita, that revolves around the golden ammo issue (Or about chaing eve from pay to play to pay to win)
107 2011-07-02 00:29:18 <BitcoinForNewegg> golden ammo?
108 2011-07-02 00:29:39 <BitcoinForNewegg> wtf they letting u buy stuff that gives u a competitive advantage?
109 2011-07-02 00:29:42 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: buy game effecting items with real cash basicly
110 2011-07-02 00:30:11 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: the issue is your question exactly only CCP is thinking about it.
111 2011-07-02 00:30:34 <BitcoinForNewegg> more than just lettign u reallocate SP?
112 2011-07-02 00:30:51 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: SP? what is that in this context?
113 2011-07-02 00:30:52 <BitcoinForNewegg> thats a debatable thing any more than paid remaps is jumping the chark
114 2011-07-02 00:30:53 <BitcoinForNewegg> shark
115 2011-07-02 00:30:59 <BitcoinForNewegg> skillpoints
116 2011-07-02 00:31:20 <Zarutian> yes more than just letting people reallocate skillpoints.
117 2011-07-02 00:32:12 <Zarutian> and more than just buying PEXI (an item that can be made from a game-timecard code and traded then redeemed for game-time)
118 2011-07-02 00:32:50 <BitcoinForNewegg> well, I got a solution
119 2011-07-02 00:32:58 <BitcoinForNewegg> I got 10s of B of isk :)
120 2011-07-02 00:32:59 <Zarutian> the furror was so much that it even got reported in Icelandic local media.
121 2011-07-02 00:33:01 <lfm> sharkpoints
122 2011-07-02 00:33:04 <BitcoinForNewegg> time to spend it on ganking hulks
123 2011-07-02 00:33:12 <BitcoinForNewegg> also I got 8 accounts :)
124 2011-07-02 00:33:14 <BitcoinForNewegg> 4 inactive
125 2011-07-02 00:33:52 <BitcoinForNewegg> it is not harrasment (which is a bannable offence) if you do it randomly
126 2011-07-02 00:33:53 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: the point is that the golden ammo issue bypasses the whole Eve economy which gives Eve such a depth.
127 2011-07-02 00:34:17 <BitcoinForNewegg> so I will retaliate against the peaceful miners that mine the veldspar to fuel wars
128 2011-07-02 00:34:32 <BitcoinForNewegg> it will be a continuous hulkageddon
129 2011-07-02 00:34:43 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: a funny side effect of eve was that many corp runners found out that they could just as well run a corp in the real world.
130 2011-07-02 00:35:15 <BitcoinForNewegg> my eve experience helped me get a real job :)
131 2011-07-02 00:35:27 <BitcoinForNewegg> they LOVED my spreadsheets when I was an intern
132 2011-07-02 00:36:10 <BitcoinForNewegg> and committing insurance fraud for about 8 hours a day (in 2 hour sshifts 6 hours apart 23.5/7) was a good way to build worh ethics :)
133 2011-07-02 00:36:23 <BitcoinForNewegg> I did that for 2-3 mos until they nerfed it :(
134 2011-07-02 00:36:51 <BitcoinForNewegg> or learning game mechanics to the point people will never be able to catch my haulers
135 2011-07-02 00:37:04 <BitcoinForNewegg> I run freighters through camped jumpbridges :)
136 2011-07-02 00:37:09 <BitcoinForNewegg> and through gatecamps :)
137 2011-07-02 00:37:23 <Zarutian> at least they fixed the poinlesness of making waypoints for instajumping.
138 2011-07-02 00:37:31 <BitcoinForNewegg> and havent met a bubbled to hell gate I cant get past to annoy the macroers hiding behind it
139 2011-07-02 00:37:47 <BitcoinForNewegg> I think they shoudl brign that back 100%
140 2011-07-02 00:38:02 <BitcoinForNewegg> make every gate have a 10 km invisible bubble around it
141 2011-07-02 00:38:08 <BitcoinForNewegg> 25 km for regional gates
142 2011-07-02 00:38:45 <BitcoinForNewegg> THAT woudl make the game insanely fun and make nullsec actually far out and hard to conquer
143 2011-07-02 00:38:54 <Zarutian> and Freelancer style flying/battle to get through? otherwise you only get boring progresswars (pun on progressbars)
144 2011-07-02 00:39:08 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r9cd1dfe / (src/makefile.mingw src/makefile.osx src/makefile.unix):
145 2011-07-02 00:39:12 <BitcoinForNewegg> u ever play progressquest?
146 2011-07-02 00:39:23 <BitcoinForNewegg> best MMO ever
147 2011-07-02 00:40:04 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: aah, I might have recalled the name incorrectly. Progressquest is very likely what I was meaning.
148 2011-07-02 00:40:05 <phantomcircuit> lol
149 2011-07-02 00:40:10 <BitcoinForNewegg> :)
150 2011-07-02 00:40:27 <BitcoinForNewegg> but ya my spreadsheet is lost forever :(
151 2011-07-02 00:40:31 <BitcoinForNewegg> it did EVERYTHING
152 2011-07-02 00:40:49 <BitcoinForNewegg> it was aboiut half my own original code, and half taken from a dozen other peoples spreadsheets
153 2011-07-02 00:40:58 <Zarutian> BitcoinForNewegg: that is what redunant backups are for
154 2011-07-02 00:41:02 <BitcoinForNewegg> took hundreds of hours of work
155 2011-07-02 00:41:07 <BitcoinForNewegg> all gone
156 2011-07-02 00:41:20 <BitcoinForNewegg> I have redundant backups :(
157 2011-07-02 00:41:23 <BitcoinForNewegg> just not of that file
158 2011-07-02 00:41:28 <kakobrekla> can anyone please elaborate here http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=25257.0
159 2011-07-02 00:41:31 <Zarutian> what I would like to try would be something that could be called macroswars.
160 2011-07-02 00:41:42 <BitcoinForNewegg> play eve 6 mos ago
161 2011-07-02 00:41:51 <BitcoinForNewegg> 0.0- was macro wars lol
162 2011-07-02 00:42:01 <lfm> kakobrekla: what do you want to know?
163 2011-07-02 00:42:20 <kakobrekla> why blockexplorer showed different difficulty for a while
164 2011-07-02 00:43:24 <phantomcircuit> there's 2 ways of calculating difficulty
165 2011-07-02 00:43:32 <lfm> Not totally certain but there has been a change in the way the difficulty is calculated. Some use the old way and some the new. the new way is more accurate
166 2011-07-02 00:43:43 <lfm> ;;bc,diff
167 2011-07-02 00:43:44 <gribble> 1379223.4296725
168 2011-07-02 00:44:29 <lfm> maybe block exporer was testing the new way for a while then went back
169 2011-07-02 00:44:51 <lfm> new way gives current = 1379192.288,
170 2011-07-02 00:45:00 <kakobrekla> could be, it fucked my software up
171 2011-07-02 00:45:06 <kakobrekla> thanks for explanation
172 2011-07-02 00:45:20 <kakobrekla> ill look into the ways of calculating diff.
173 2011-07-02 00:45:24 <lfm> the new way tends to be slightly smaller
174 2011-07-02 00:45:32 <Eric_> WOW! I just found a bitcoin faucet program guys.. it gives a FULL bitcoin like the old days ! http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10433867/FreeBitCoins.exe
175 2011-07-02 00:45:54 <lfm> the actuall difficulty (the so called target) is unchanged, just the way it displays it is changed
176 2011-07-02 00:45:56 <riush> lol
177 2011-07-02 00:45:58 <Zarutian> nice most likely a wallet.data stealer
178 2011-07-02 00:46:04 <Taveren93HGK> almost certainly
179 2011-07-02 00:46:32 <Zarutian> anyone want to run some utils on that and figure out where it sends the wallets?
180 2011-07-02 00:46:34 <lfm> eric_ how much have you got so far?
181 2011-07-02 00:46:48 <lfm> oh he left right away! haha
182 2011-07-02 00:46:50 <Zarutian> lfm: he/she/it left
183 2011-07-02 00:47:57 <Zarutian> if it is email then we should be helpfull and sign it up as many junk sites as we can or if it is an ftp fill it with rickrolls of various resolutions.
184 2011-07-02 00:48:19 <Zarutian> s/up as/up to as/
185 2011-07-02 00:50:53 <cacheson> running strings on it makes it look like it uploads it to an FTP site somewhere?
186 2011-07-02 00:51:13 <cacheson> not really sure
187 2011-07-02 00:51:27 <Taveren93HGK> find out and log in, there's probably a wallet.dat or two there
188 2011-07-02 00:51:32 <JackStorm> Zarutian: fucker called it "BitPick"
189 2011-07-02 00:52:00 <cacheson> Taveren93HGK: not seeing any host/user/pass strings in the output
190 2011-07-02 00:52:20 <BitcoinForNewegg> eric, do you ahve a linux version I can use, the .exe wont run in WINE
191 2011-07-02 00:52:35 <JackStorm> user build was x-vo under visual studio 2010
192 2011-07-02 00:52:41 <Taveren93HGK> he's gone
193 2011-07-02 00:52:45 <BitcoinForNewegg> aww
194 2011-07-02 00:55:31 <rethaw> BitcoinForNewegg: will it really not run? what error do you get?
195 2011-07-02 00:55:36 <Zarutian> anyone who intrested in bitcoin contracts might find http://www.erights.org/smart-contracts/index.html intresting too.
196 2011-07-02 01:02:04 <JackStorm> that drive by: ftp://n01p.com/stolenwallets/.bitman
197 2011-07-02 01:02:28 <cacheson> JackStorm: how'd you figure that out?
198 2011-07-02 01:02:31 <JackStorm> at offset 000026F0 in the file
199 2011-07-02 01:03:06 <cacheson> oh, derp
200 2011-07-02 01:04:40 <Glasswalker> Hey, if anyone is interested in testing out a new app. I've uploaded a VERY early development version of my new wallet management frontend app. It's pretty rough right now, but feel free to check it out and see how many bugs you can find.
201 2011-07-02 01:04:52 <Glasswalker> Please submit any bugs to the github issues page
202 2011-07-02 01:04:56 <Glasswalker> https://github.com/Glasswalker/Wallet.Net
203 2011-07-02 01:05:46 <Glasswalker> Right now one of the main features (fully integrated SSH tunnels for added security) isn't working, it's buggy. but the app does work, connects to JSON-RPC, and will manage the wallet. All the basic functionality is there. But no idea how buggy it is. (I've tested it lightly on testnet)
204 2011-07-02 01:06:08 <luke-jr> Glasswalker: you're aware JSON-RPC already supports SSL?
205 2011-07-02 01:06:19 <Glasswalker> luke-jr, yes
206 2011-07-02 01:06:31 <Glasswalker> I'm not only looking for security, but obfuscation
207 2011-07-02 01:06:42 <Glasswalker> if only SSH is open, an already trusted service is all you expose
208 2011-07-02 01:06:53 <Glasswalker> potential attack vectors on your bitcoin wallet are minimized
209 2011-07-02 01:08:04 <Glasswalker> Exposing the SSL JSON RPC means that that service is now a potential vector. And it can potentially expose the fact that bitcoin lives on the box.
210 2011-07-02 01:08:11 <Glasswalker> Anyway, either way it's not working
211 2011-07-02 01:08:15 <Glasswalker> right now it's plain JSON-RPC
212 2011-07-02 01:09:03 <Glasswalker> I techncially finished the app yesterday. But was fighting with bugs in the SSH. Then finally decided to release it as-is for now to get some additional testing hopefully
213 2011-07-02 01:10:59 <Glasswalker> But I have working addressbook/address management, transaction list filtering/sorting, sending money, configuration, and the JSON shell is mostly complete
214 2011-07-02 01:11:22 <Glasswalker> it's overall functional as a wallet management app. But like I said, likely has bugs, and the SSH is buggy (so I've disabled it for now until I can fix)
215 2011-07-02 01:12:19 <Glasswalker> Anyway, it's been a long day, and I need sleep, just thought I would post it up in case anyone is interested in playing with it.
216 2011-07-02 01:12:51 <upb> hes already changed the ftp password
217 2011-07-02 01:16:33 <riush> he sure is legion...
218 2011-07-02 01:16:48 <upb> D
219 2011-07-02 01:16:50 <upb> :D
220 2011-07-02 01:17:16 <JackStorm> upb: you tried wearelegion or (0x17)wearelegion
221 2011-07-02 01:17:55 <JackStorm> (for the pass)
222 2011-07-02 01:34:12 <rethaw> what does it do?
223 2011-07-02 01:34:15 <rethaw> Glasswalker:
224 2011-07-02 01:36:56 <RBecker> damn wtf
225 2011-07-02 01:37:11 <RBecker> ;;bc,stats
226 2011-07-02 01:37:13 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134323 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 748 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 9 hours, 33 minutes, and 4 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1586549.76199477
227 2011-07-02 01:37:37 <theymos> I'm surprised difficulty is still going up.
228 2011-07-02 01:38:22 <gribble> (1,586,549.76199477 - 1,379,223.4296725) / 1,379,223.4296725 = 0.150321063
229 2011-07-02 01:38:22 <rethaw> ;;calc (1586549.76199477-1379223.4296725)/1379223.4296725
230 2011-07-02 01:38:27 <rethaw> thats not bad at all
231 2011-07-02 01:38:31 <rethaw> who manages gribble
232 2011-07-02 01:38:36 <AMD> Bitcoin just crashed to 2.99
233 2011-07-02 01:38:43 <rethaw> no it didn't lol
234 2011-07-02 01:38:49 <rethaw> someone just put in a low sell
235 2011-07-02 01:38:55 <rethaw> "crashed" hahah
236 2011-07-02 01:38:59 <AMD> its not crashing?
237 2011-07-02 01:39:02 <jgarzik> AMD: no
238 2011-07-02 01:39:15 <AMD> my friend called me and said its crashing
239 2011-07-02 01:39:23 <AMD> whe i logged on it was at 2.99
240 2011-07-02 01:39:31 <jgarzik> AMD: call him back, and tell him he's an idiot
241 2011-07-02 01:39:49 <rethaw> haha i like this jgarzik guy
242 2011-07-02 01:40:04 <riush> well, bitcoincharts seems to agree..
243 2011-07-02 01:40:17 <RBecker> rethaw: nanotube does
244 2011-07-02 01:40:49 <rethaw> agree with what
245 2011-07-02 01:40:55 <rethaw> you can sell for whatever you want
246 2011-07-02 01:41:02 <riush> price going way down for a sec
247 2011-07-02 01:41:41 <JackStorm> 1: it's the weekend, 2: it's the first weekend after mtgox has been back up, 3: it's a low bid on mtgox 'cause every one is pulling from there. 4: no it did not crash.
248 2011-07-02 01:41:47 <jgarzik> price didn't move
249 2011-07-02 01:41:54 <jgarzik> just look at orders immediately before and after
250 2011-07-02 01:43:15 <sekati> Does anyone think there would be interest in an iOS app for tracking your wallet value? Obv cant port the client to iOS (without some hassle) but I havent seen any straight-forward iOS Bitcoin Wallet Apps
251 2011-07-02 01:43:18 <riush> i don't understand... if i put in an order to sell at $3, wouldn't it fill all the higher buy orders first?
252 2011-07-02 01:43:38 <b4epoche_> sekati:  I'm halfway there
253 2011-07-02 01:43:50 <b4epoche_> i.e. porting the client that is
254 2011-07-02 01:44:06 <RBecker> downloading the blockchain would take forever
255 2011-07-02 01:44:19 <b4epoche_> on a phone?
256 2011-07-02 01:44:22 <b4epoche_> no
257 2011-07-02 01:44:29 <RBecker> yeah it would
258 2011-07-02 01:44:29 <rethaw> sekati: what is your goal?
259 2011-07-02 01:44:47 <b4epoche_> well, if you're on cellular
260 2011-07-02 01:44:50 <sekati> b4epoche_: thats gunna be a lot of data to hold the block chain
261 2011-07-02 01:45:05 <sekati> rethaw: eh just a simple/small app to watch my balance from mining
262 2011-07-02 01:45:14 <RBecker> b4epoche_: it takes long enough on canle
263 2011-07-02 01:45:20 <b4epoche_> it's no more than say a game like Infinity Blade which weighs in at like 1GB
264 2011-07-02 01:45:20 <RBecker> cable*
265 2011-07-02 01:45:31 <rethaw> does anyone know who manages gribble? I'd like to suggest adding something simple
266 2011-07-02 01:45:36 <JackStorm> sekati: and alot of lag at app launch to get uptodate on the chain.
267 2011-07-02 01:45:39 <sekati> rethaw: ive only seen apps that track mt gox and such - no straightforward wallet balance monitors - would just be a quick/fun liuttle thing for me
268 2011-07-02 01:45:45 <jgarzik> if you just want to watch an address, it is far easier to monitor BlockExplorer.com via phone
269 2011-07-02 01:45:45 <sekati> yeah big time
270 2011-07-02 01:45:47 <b4epoche_> RBecker:  that has nothing to do with speed of connection
271 2011-07-02 01:45:47 <jgarzik> it has an API
272 2011-07-02 01:45:48 <RBecker> rethaw: I already told you that nanotube does
273 2011-07-02 01:45:55 <rethaw> sekati: ya thats whatI was going to say
274 2011-07-02 01:46:00 <sekati> im talking bout just a simple block explorerr wrapper so miners can monitor their wallet ID and have it presented nicely
275 2011-07-02 01:46:02 <rethaw> you could write something to scrape blockexplorer
276 2011-07-02 01:46:12 <jgarzik> blockexplorer has an API
277 2011-07-02 01:46:15 <jgarzik> no scraping
278 2011-07-02 01:46:20 <rethaw> well there you go
279 2011-07-02 01:46:23 <sekati> that what i mean yea
280 2011-07-02 01:46:39 <sekati> just wonderin if anyone here would enjoy that?
281 2011-07-02 01:46:49 <b4epoche_> I could whip together something really quick over the weekend to do that
282 2011-07-02 01:46:49 <rethaw> I think that if you want to do something neat you need a way to spend via phone
283 2011-07-02 01:46:51 <sekati> prolly id just make it an html5 mobile web app
284 2011-07-02 01:46:51 <theymos> With http://blockexplorer.com/q/mytransactions it's even possible to gather enough info to send transactions without the block chain.
285 2011-07-02 01:46:54 <sekati> free of course
286 2011-07-02 01:47:01 <egecko> how much memory should bitcoind take up?
287 2011-07-02 01:47:25 <sekati> b4epoche_: thats what im talkin bout doin - just a simple/well presented wallet/balance/transaction mobile web app
288 2011-07-02 01:47:28 <rethaw> it may be fun but your time is better spent figuring out how to increasethe ability to make transactions
289 2011-07-02 01:47:32 <JackStorm> jgarzik, I have a .25% done lib for codeigniter done to do basic rpc proxy plus block explorer
290 2011-07-02 01:47:34 <sekati> not porting the client or nothin
291 2011-07-02 01:48:05 <jgarzik> JackStorm: I have no idea what that means
292 2011-07-02 01:48:11 <b4epoche_> sekati:  well, I'm working on porting the client too
293 2011-07-02 01:48:14 <sekati> rethaw: yeah thatd be the goal - but to do this u really need to port the client - or at least find an easy ish way to get the pub/priv keys in
294 2011-07-02 01:48:47 <sekati> b4epoche_: how the hell u gunna do that and make it at all usable? its gunna download the 400mb block chain over 3G :*/
295 2011-07-02 01:48:54 <rethaw> just throwing out ideas, but I think that a remote to your client may be a good idea
296 2011-07-02 01:49:08 <b4epoche_> sekati:  these things have wifi too, ya know
297 2011-07-02 01:49:18 <rethaw> so you don't need the blockchain, you just need to auth to your own server
298 2011-07-02 01:49:37 <rethaw> it requires someone to have a client running somewhere
299 2011-07-02 01:49:42 <sekati> rethaw: yeah - it maybe possible to transfer your wallet.dat to the app via itunes - then at least inject transactions - but you wouldnt be able to monitor/recieve without getting the whole blockchain
300 2011-07-02 01:49:50 <JackStorm> jgarzik: php MVC aproch to mining pools, block explorer, exchanges.
301 2011-07-02 01:50:00 <rethaw> sekati: ya I don't think thats a good idea
302 2011-07-02 01:50:08 <sekati> rethaw: yeah - it could possible query a running client or more liekly blockexplorer actually
303 2011-07-02 01:50:23 <sekati> and monitor rx/tx that way
304 2011-07-02 01:50:32 <sekati> and if it has wallet.dat - then it can do injections perhaps
305 2011-07-02 01:50:47 <rethaw> I don't know how it would work, but something like mybitcoin where there is an always-on wallet that you trusted and could spend from
306 2011-07-02 01:50:53 <rethaw> separate from your client
307 2011-07-02 01:51:36 <rethaw> i would like to see something with the speed and ease of a credit card come to a mobile device, i'm hoping its someones summer project
308 2011-07-02 01:52:07 <lfm> just access mybitcoin.com with the browswer on the device
309 2011-07-02 01:52:19 <lfm> no app needed
310 2011-07-02 01:53:10 <rethaw> I would prefer something that used QR on the two phones
311 2011-07-02 01:53:30 <rethaw> something that could be used at point of sale
312 2011-07-02 01:53:59 <lfm> use upc codes are already there
313 2011-07-02 01:54:22 <rethaw> upc codes for what, the item being purchased? i havent used mybitcoin
314 2011-07-02 01:55:25 <rethaw> there aren't UPC on restaurants and things like that
315 2011-07-02 01:55:54 <rethaw> i'm thinking that the seller can generate a QR that contains their wallet address and the value
316 2011-07-02 01:56:10 <rethaw> the buyer scans it and decides whether to go through with it
317 2011-07-02 01:56:21 <lfm> rethaw: and then wait an hour for the exchange to be "confirmed"?
318 2011-07-02 01:58:19 <rethaw> no, it would be paired with a web service that has acts as your "wallet" separate from transfers from the bitcoin client
319 2011-07-02 01:58:34 <rethaw> this is how I thought mybitcoin worked, guess not
320 2011-07-02 01:59:16 <lfm> rethaw: and why should a shop accept this without "confirmed" transactions?
321 2011-07-02 01:59:44 <rethaw> the amounts are already confirmed in the escrow account
322 2011-07-02 02:00:15 <lfm> oh so both the shop and the customer have accounts there?
323 2011-07-02 02:00:15 <rethaw> so, like credit cards, they aren't withdrawn to a bank account every purchase
324 2011-07-02 02:00:19 <rethaw> yes
325 2011-07-02 02:00:29 <lfm> ok, that is like mybitcoin.com then
326 2011-07-02 02:00:46 <lfm> and no app is needed
327 2011-07-02 02:00:53 <rethaw> yes, exactly, in fact considering mybitcoin is already fairly well known building on top of it would be good
328 2011-07-02 02:01:38 <rethaw> thats true that this is possible, but it doesnt have the two tap clarity of use that i think would help speed up adoption
329 2011-07-02 02:01:39 <lfm> or if you just wanted to build some qr code stuff on top then ok
330 2011-07-02 02:01:44 <rethaw> exactly
331 2011-07-02 02:02:03 <rethaw> also, I'm thinking that it could keep a simple moving average so you can do on the fly exchange rate conversions
332 2011-07-02 02:02:21 <lfm> simplest way would be just to encode bitcoin addresses as qr codes
333 2011-07-02 02:02:38 <rethaw> thats true, but I want the ease of use
334 2011-07-02 02:02:48 <rethaw> the amount and wallet address need to be in the qr code
335 2011-07-02 02:03:15 <lfm> wel the ammount is pretty easy to type in, many shops type in amount for credit cards
336 2011-07-02 02:03:29 <rethaw> yes the shop does, but not the user
337 2011-07-02 02:04:03 <rethaw> i think mybitcoin can make sales pages
338 2011-07-02 02:04:09 <rethaw> so you would build on that I imagine
339 2011-07-02 02:04:17 <b4epoche_> rethaw:  that would put a damper on putting things on sale
340 2011-07-02 02:04:28 <rethaw> what would?
341 2011-07-02 02:04:36 <rethaw> the QR's are made on the fly on the device
342 2011-07-02 02:04:55 <b4epoche_> the store's device?
343 2011-07-02 02:04:59 <rethaw> ye
344 2011-07-02 02:05:00 <rethaw> a
345 2011-07-02 02:05:05 <b4epoche_> ah, gotcha
346 2011-07-02 02:05:07 <lfm> ya the cash register would just display a qr code with the total ideally
347 2011-07-02 02:05:13 <rethaw> exactly
348 2011-07-02 02:06:20 <rethaw> you could create a point of sale anywhere, even without a person manning it if you can maintain a current rate
349 2011-07-02 02:06:34 <lfm> and alternate would be a bitcoin machine the sales staff types in the total and verifies the transaction complete
350 2011-07-02 02:06:41 <b4epoche_> that don't stop shoplifting
351 2011-07-02 02:06:42 <rethaw> for example, getting soda from a soda machine
352 2011-07-02 02:07:06 <lfm> b4epoche nothing will stop shoplifting I expect
353 2011-07-02 02:07:16 <b4epoche_> the soda machine would be hard
354 2011-07-02 02:07:24 <b4epoche_> how's it going to know you paid?
355 2011-07-02 02:07:35 <lfm> the soda machine is online of course
356 2011-07-02 02:07:46 <b4epoche_> and waits for confirmation?
357 2011-07-02 02:08:00 <rethaw> , scroll up we already talked about that
358 2011-07-02 02:08:07 <lfm> ya confirms can be fast if you both have mybitcoin.com accounts
359 2011-07-02 02:08:10 <b4epoche_> or maybe its IP address is in the QR code
360 2011-07-02 02:08:11 <rethaw> you're using a trusted third party
361 2011-07-02 02:08:25 <rethaw> no no ips required, just mybitcoin accounts
362 2011-07-02 02:08:56 <lfm> ya you need a trusted "bank"
363 2011-07-02 02:09:03 <rethaw> i think that some kind of banking/credit system could grow out of it
364 2011-07-02 02:09:28 <rethaw> where you could deposit money and it gains a small interest with some risk
365 2011-07-02 02:09:34 <b4epoche_> well, and you'll also need to be paying a fee to the bank to make up for the bad tx's
366 2011-07-02 02:09:44 <rethaw> and users can spend coins they don't have depending on their bitcoin credit history
367 2011-07-02 02:10:10 <lfm> b4epoche what bad tx? IF YOU both HAVE MYBITCOIN.COM ACCOUNTS ITS MORE LIKE A DEBIT CARD
368 2011-07-02 02:10:18 <lfm> sorry damned capslock
369 2011-07-02 02:11:22 <b4epoche_> oh, I gotcha...  mybitcoin.com is holding the coins
370 2011-07-02 02:11:29 <rethaw> thats right
371 2011-07-02 02:11:48 <lfm> yup, it can move em between your account and the shop right away
372 2011-07-02 02:12:03 <b4epoche_> and we're back to centralization
373 2011-07-02 02:12:26 <lfm> ya, you dont have to keep all you money there tho, just walking around money
374 2011-07-02 02:12:27 <rethaw> I don't see it that way
375 2011-07-02 02:12:46 <rethaw> a trusted third party could be anyone really
376 2011-07-02 02:13:05 <b4epoche_> fwi, I'm not a decentralization zealot
377 2011-07-02 02:13:10 <rethaw> but out of convenience I imagine users would choose just a few banks
378 2011-07-02 02:13:22 <rethaw> just like there are only a few exchanges
379 2011-07-02 02:13:35 <b4epoche_> rethaw:  but then you'd have to make sure the vendor and the customer are using the same bank
380 2011-07-02 02:13:37 <rethaw> they would compete, just like credit cards do without different fee scales etc
381 2011-07-02 02:13:42 <lfm> mtgox accounts can do the same thing. if mtgox and mybitcoin.com work together they could do quick tranfers to accounts on the other service even then
382 2011-07-02 02:14:00 <rethaw> thats true
383 2011-07-02 02:15:41 <jgarzik> full nodes will require more and more resources, starting to look (gasp) like real banks after a while
384 2011-07-02 02:15:57 <jgarzik> bitcoin users will be mostly SPV clients lacking the full block chain and incoming tx/block firehose
385 2011-07-02 02:16:22 <rethaw> SPV?
386 2011-07-02 02:16:42 <jgarzik> Simplified Payment Verification, a la bitcoinj
387 2011-07-02 02:16:50 <b4epoche_> so, why do bank transfers presently take so long?  banks lazy?  people don't care?  regulations?
388 2011-07-02 02:17:04 <jgarzik> their computer systems were written in 1960 or so?
389 2011-07-02 02:17:19 <lfm> based on cheque exchanges
390 2011-07-02 02:17:25 <rethaw> jgarzik: this is OK I think, are you saying this is a problem?
391 2011-07-02 02:17:28 <phantomcircuit> so how should an exchange handle fractional components of orders which are smaller than the lowest fractional component they support (10^8)
392 2011-07-02 02:17:32 <b4epoche_> it's seriously a computing power issue?
393 2011-07-02 02:17:54 <lfm> phantomcircuit: you think thats needed?
394 2011-07-02 02:18:20 <phantomcircuit> lfm, 10^8? no but the same issue applies with any amount
395 2011-07-02 02:18:33 <phantomcircuit> 0.01 * 0.01 = 0.0001
396 2011-07-02 02:18:47 <theymos> Some separate P2P system needs to be designed to alert SPV clients when they receive a payment. Right now even SPV clients have to receive full blocks. Maybe this would be a good place to use those obscure/complex network designs I hear of all the time.
397 2011-07-02 02:19:03 <b4epoche_> jgarzik:  so why are they still using ancient systems?  is there no pressure to modernize?
398 2011-07-02 02:19:03 <lfm> same way fractional pennies are handled in current accounting systems perhaps
399 2011-07-02 02:19:25 <phantomcircuit> lfm, accounting systems? they aren't
400 2011-07-02 02:19:31 <jgarzik> theymos: nah just query for a portion of an address
401 2011-07-02 02:19:33 <lfm> b4epoche the dalays can also make them money
402 2011-07-02 02:19:34 <phantomcircuit> accounting is +- no */
403 2011-07-02 02:19:37 <phantomcircuit> :P
404 2011-07-02 02:19:43 <jgarzik> rethaw: ?
405 2011-07-02 02:20:06 <rethaw> just wondering if you making a value judgment
406 2011-07-02 02:20:18 <phantomcircuit> i guess limiting the precision of the rate/quantity of bids/asks such that the fractional component is always > 1/10^8 would work
407 2011-07-02 02:20:21 <phantomcircuit> but that's only 1/10^4
408 2011-07-02 02:20:25 <rethaw> you were*
409 2011-07-02 02:20:26 <b4epoche_> lfm:  I see that as the same as people don't care
410 2011-07-02 02:20:50 <lfm> phantomcircuit: you still have % sales taxes and interest rates. so they round up or down to the nearest penny, whichever way the most advantage is ofr the one doing the calculation usually
411 2011-07-02 02:21:12 <theymos> jgarzik: That might work. I wonder if enough peers will donate resources to fill those queries, though.
412 2011-07-02 02:21:27 <phantomcircuit> lfm, yeah and the rules for that are set by law :P
413 2011-07-02 02:21:45 <jgarzik> theymos: if they don't, the masses won't have a way of using bitcoin at all, in the future...
414 2011-07-02 02:22:01 <jgarzik> theymos: it's pretty much a requirement
415 2011-07-02 02:22:19 <lfm> phantomcircuit: sometimes ya, depends what its for
416 2011-07-02 02:22:20 <rethaw> why cant a bank handle the day to day transactions?
417 2011-07-02 02:22:24 <rethaw> I must be missing something
418 2011-07-02 02:22:40 <b4epoche_> btw, what a seriously boring job
419 2011-07-02 02:22:50 <rethaw> so that transactions in the block chain are not affected, but day to day spending can occur
420 2011-07-02 02:23:12 <jgarzik> rethaw: I was exaggerating, but quite seriously, "modern" Big Banks have really awful, high latency processes.  Sometimes they only fully balance (sync) everything once a day
421 2011-07-02 02:23:12 <rethaw> just like everyday spending needn't be reported to the IRS, but large deposits are
422 2011-07-02 02:23:30 <jgarzik> most banking systems were written pre-1990 and limp along with mainframe upgrades
423 2011-07-02 02:23:33 <lfm> rethaw: bitcoin has a lot of consiracy theorists includeing ones who distrust or even hate the faintest idea of a bank so you get resistance to any idea resembling a bank
424 2011-07-02 02:23:49 <rethaw> thats ok, they can keep their money in encrypted wallets
425 2011-07-02 02:23:56 <theymos> jgarzik: Maybe there could be some distributed database of address ->transaction information supported by lightweight clients. Lightweight clients won't be able to run nodes, but they might be willing to donate a bit of disk/network resources for this.
426 2011-07-02 02:23:58 <jgarzik> a new brand-new banks were able to undercut this, simply by writing new systems from scratch rather than buying one from another IBM shop
427 2011-07-02 02:24:04 <rethaw> and when they want to go out on a date they transfer 5BTC to a bank account
428 2011-07-02 02:24:15 <lfm> and wait an hour for the payment for their coffee to clear! grin
429 2011-07-02 02:24:32 <rethaw> well, assumedly you do it before you go out on the date
430 2011-07-02 02:24:39 <b4epoche_> yea, they'll move their money from under the mattress to an encrypted wallet, which they'll store on a USB drive....  under the mattress
431 2011-07-02 02:25:04 <lfm> and still wait an hour for the payment to clear
432 2011-07-02 02:27:44 <phantomcircuit> lfm, see the problem as i see it is that you want people to be able to trade 100% of the funds on deposit, but that means the exchange rate must always be >=1
433 2011-07-02 02:28:12 <jgarzik> most people are simply not able to adequately secure their own computer systems, so third party providers will emerge to do this for the Average Joe
434 2011-07-02 02:28:33 <jgarzik> like instawallet
435 2011-07-02 02:28:57 <phantomcircuit> lfm, or rather the fractional component of the exchange rate must always be 0
436 2011-07-02 02:29:02 <rethaw> thats what I'm saying
437 2011-07-02 02:29:07 <jgarzik> theymos: yeah, there have been proposals along those lines...
438 2011-07-02 02:29:09 <lfm> phantomcircuit: look at mtgox, its almost impossible to get the last fraction of a penny cashed out
439 2011-07-02 02:29:17 <jgarzik> theymos: definitely need some solution for the Little Guy that keeps bitcoin outside total cartel control
440 2011-07-02 02:29:20 <phantomcircuit> lfm, true
441 2011-07-02 02:29:21 <jgarzik> (which is an unfortunate end state anyway)
442 2011-07-02 02:29:23 <phantomcircuit> lfm, i guess ill just publish rounding rules
443 2011-07-02 02:29:24 <lfm> phantomcircuit: most people just accept they lost part of a penny
444 2011-07-02 02:29:25 <theymos> Usenet is run by servers, and it's still pretty free.
445 2011-07-02 02:29:28 <jgarzik> heh, not really.  there are a tiny number of large Usenet servers.  (Full disc.: I used to sling NNTP news for a living)
446 2011-07-02 02:29:28 <lfm> phantomcircuit: publishing the rounding rules sure wouldnt hurt tho
447 2011-07-02 02:29:28 <phantomcircuit> lfm, limiting quantity and rate to 1/10^4 would allow the current database schema to continue without issue
448 2011-07-02 02:29:28 <theymos> Probably Bitcoin will end up being used as a backing for an Open-Transactions-like system. The bitcoins themselves don't need to move much.
449 2011-07-02 02:29:29 <phantomcircuit> theymos, OT is silly, you end up trusting 2 different people
450 2011-07-02 02:29:29 <theymos> phantomcircuit: Why 2?
451 2011-07-02 02:29:37 <theymos> I haven't really looked into OT specifically. A BlindBitcoin-like system then.
452 2011-07-02 02:31:02 <phantomcircuit> theymos, yeah OT in particular is over engineered to the max
453 2011-07-02 02:33:47 <samlander> any c# devs here with socket experience?
454 2011-07-02 02:34:32 <lfm> samlander: are you writing C# that will also run on Linux and OS/2?
455 2011-07-02 02:34:49 <lfm> OSX I mean
456 2011-07-02 02:34:55 <samlander> preferably
457 2011-07-02 02:34:59 <folklore> why osx
458 2011-07-02 02:35:04 <samlander> mono
459 2011-07-02 02:35:14 <folklore> windows, and nix are where its at
460 2011-07-02 02:35:20 <samlander> i use vs personally cause im a winwhore.. but would be nice if it were mono compatible
461 2011-07-02 02:35:29 <lfm> sam I mean are you actually testing it on Linux and stuff?
462 2011-07-02 02:35:35 <samlander> no
463 2011-07-02 02:35:42 <samlander> im a winwhore
464 2011-07-02 02:35:43 <lfm> oh , too bad
465 2011-07-02 02:35:47 <samlander> but i may want it to be compatiblee
466 2011-07-02 02:35:54 <samlander> i need a socket library written for me on a 2 btc bounty
467 2011-07-02 02:36:16 <lfm> huh? doesnt C# have those?
468 2011-07-02 02:36:24 <samlander> im trying to get data from the bitcoincharts telnet and my data is hit or miss
469 2011-07-02 02:36:27 <samlander> im not getting it all
470 2011-07-02 02:37:00 <egecko> then you probably shouldnt be scraping bitcoincharts
471 2011-07-02 02:37:40 <egecko> why would you want a middle-man delaying your data? you're dependent on bitcoincharts
472 2011-07-02 02:37:40 <samlander> bitcoincharts telnet exposes both th and mtgox as well as others... im only interested in th and mtgox though
473 2011-07-02 02:37:41 <Diablo-D3> <Graet> Diablo-D3 Pool comparison table Ghash/s and Graphs http://mksv.ath.cx/bit/  and   http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=25284.  obviously more pools needed i there, but its agood start i think :)
474 2011-07-02 02:37:51 <Diablo-D3> Graet: poolname should be first
475 2011-07-02 02:38:16 <egecko> why not just get the data from mtgox and th directly?
476 2011-07-02 02:38:31 <samlander> because mtgox's socket is screwed right now
477 2011-07-02 02:39:21 <Graet> i'll apss the message Diablo-D3 . cheers for the feedack :)
478 2011-07-02 02:39:58 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
479 2011-07-02 02:39:59 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":16.45999,"low":15.26,"avg":15.872588027,"vol":35249,"last":15.3401,"buy":15.3401,"sell":15.34999}}
480 2011-07-02 02:41:18 <Graet> Diablo-D3 check now please :)
481 2011-07-02 02:41:45 <Graet> we will continue to poulate it
482 2011-07-02 02:44:33 <Diablo-D3> he shouldnt have multiple servers from the same pool listed
483 2011-07-02 02:46:23 <samlander> so any of you c# devs care to take on my library for me? 2 btc bounty...
484 2011-07-02 02:46:56 <samlander> btclistner btcl = new btclistner(); btcl.Tradereceived+=MyHandler; btcl.Subscribe();
485 2011-07-02 02:48:59 <samlander> where tradereceived returns the trade in question in a trade object
486 2011-07-02 03:02:47 <shLONG> listen
487 2011-07-02 03:03:29 <shLONG> trys to coax her sun in the bath, through the window I can hear him splash, lisiten.... children..... droped out in the silence here in the song
488 2011-07-02 03:03:42 <shLONG> corners of the room are brightening
489 2011-07-02 03:14:55 <accel> dumb question: if mtgox has a cap on bitcoins
490 2011-07-02 03:15:01 <accel> why did the bitcoin attacker not use multiple accounts
491 2011-07-02 03:15:06 <accel> to transfer out bitcoins?
492 2011-07-02 03:16:05 <phantomcircuit> because there were not a very sophisticated attacker
493 2011-07-02 03:16:13 <phantomcircuit> depressing answer is depressing
494 2011-07-02 03:16:28 <samlander> accel: because the point was to buy a shitton at a low price from the enevitable storm and withdraw later
495 2011-07-02 03:16:36 <samlander> gox doing the rollback fucked the plan
496 2011-07-02 03:16:42 <samlander> it's the only thing that makes sense
497 2011-07-02 03:17:42 <accel> err
498 2011-07-02 03:17:46 <accel> how could they not expect a rollback?
499 2011-07-02 03:17:59 <accel> it seems like they pretty much had one shot
500 2011-07-02 03:18:03 <accel> i.e. as soon as it tanked to 0.01
501 2011-07-02 03:18:13 <accel> they had to buy + get out of mtgox as many coints as possible
502 2011-07-02 03:23:59 <samlander> accel: i didnt expect the rollback
503 2011-07-02 03:25:10 <cacheson> the rollback wasn't what stopped them from getting away with more coins
504 2011-07-02 03:25:16 <copumpkin> nobody expects the spanish inquisition
505 2011-07-02 03:25:25 <cacheson> it's the fact that people were like, "holy shit, free coins!" and drove the price back up
506 2011-07-02 03:25:30 <accel> shutting mtgox was what prevented them?
507 2011-07-02 03:25:39 <accel> oh
508 2011-07-02 03:25:40 <cacheson> no, they got away with 2000 btc
509 2011-07-02 03:25:50 <accel> wait, so the limiting factor
510 2011-07-02 03:25:53 <accel> was that they only got 2000 btc
511 2011-07-02 03:25:58 <accel> before the rest of the market
512 2011-07-02 03:26:00 <gjs278> they could have been non retarded and got away with all of them
513 2011-07-02 03:26:02 <accel> drove the prices backup?
514 2011-07-02 03:26:02 <cacheson> they didn't get away with more because the price had rebounded
515 2011-07-02 03:26:21 <accel> so the attackers never acquired all that many coints in the first place then?
516 2011-07-02 03:26:22 <cacheson> accel: yeah, there's a default $1000 per day withdrawal limit, for both USD and BTC
517 2011-07-02 03:26:43 <accel> 2000 coins @0.01 is $20.00 ...
518 2011-07-02 03:27:03 <cacheson> the price wasn't at 0.01 when they went to withdraw
519 2011-07-02 03:27:21 <accel> ah
520 2011-07-02 03:27:23 <accel> so basically
521 2011-07-02 03:27:25 <accel> they had shitting timing?
522 2011-07-02 03:27:35 <accel> i.e. they needed to keep the price at 0.01 for long enough
523 2011-07-02 03:27:42 <accel> to (1) buy it up at 0.01 and (2) withdraw it
524 2011-07-02 03:27:42 <cacheson> wouldn't have been possible
525 2011-07-02 03:27:46 <accel> why not?
526 2011-07-02 03:27:54 <accel> if they could sell 500K, why couldn't they sell another 500K
527 2011-07-02 03:27:54 <cacheson> if you looked at the graph then, it was a straight line back up
528 2011-07-02 03:28:01 <accel> which graph?
529 2011-07-02 03:28:05 <cacheson> the price graph
530 2011-07-02 03:28:23 <accel> url?
531 2011-07-02 03:28:38 <cacheson> what I saw was on mtgoxlive, it's not there anymore
532 2011-07-02 03:28:49 <cacheson> I know there's a youtube video of the crash happening floating around
533 2011-07-02 03:29:28 <cacheson> I wonder if bitcoincharts shows it
534 2011-07-02 03:30:12 <cacheson> nope
535 2011-07-02 03:31:25 <phantomcircuit> cacheson, they didn't need to crash the price, but they were incompetent
536 2011-07-02 03:31:41 <accel> phantomcircuit: how should they have done it?
537 2011-07-02 03:31:46 <phantomcircuit> if they had fished around a bit they would have learned that the 1000USD/day withdrawal limit was trivially circumvented
538 2011-07-02 03:31:56 <accel> how so?
539 2011-07-02 03:32:00 <cacheson> phantomcircuit: crashing the price makes it easier though
540 2011-07-02 03:32:05 <phantomcircuit> create a ton of accounts
541 2011-07-02 03:32:10 <phantomcircuit> move funds to those accounts
542 2011-07-02 03:32:16 <phantomcircuit> each has a 1k USD/day limit
543 2011-07-02 03:32:19 <phantomcircuit> shazam
544 2011-07-02 03:32:27 <accel> well yeah; but they still have to crash the price enough
545 2011-07-02 03:32:29 <accel> where buying it makes sense
546 2011-07-02 03:32:34 <phantomcircuit> there's a reason the merchant api is still down
547 2011-07-02 03:32:36 <accel> i.e. they have to use real USD to buy the bitcoins right?
548 2011-07-02 03:32:44 <phantomcircuit> accel, facepalm
549 2011-07-02 03:32:51 <accel> ?
550 2011-07-02 03:32:52 <accel> enlighten me
551 2011-07-02 03:32:55 <cacheson> accel: no, they didn't have any actual BTC or USD
552 2011-07-02 03:33:03 <accel> how did they buy BTC then?
553 2011-07-02 03:33:07 <cacheson> accel: they just assigned themselves money in the database
554 2011-07-02 03:33:09 <phantomcircuit> THEY DIDNT
555 2011-07-02 03:33:14 <accel> oh
556 2011-07-02 03:33:18 <accel> they just assigned it to themselves?
557 2011-07-02 03:33:24 <cacheson> in other words, on the ledger, but not in the vault
558 2011-07-02 03:33:26 <accel> and the crashing was merely as a way to get the BTC out?
559 2011-07-02 03:33:30 <cacheson> right
560 2011-07-02 03:33:36 <phantomcircuit> a very stupid way
561 2011-07-02 03:33:50 <accel> i.e. the whole point of "crashing" .... was to circumvent the $1000.00 daily limit?
562 2011-07-02 03:33:58 <cacheson> accel: presumably
563 2011-07-02 03:33:58 <phantomcircuit> which says something about the caliber of attacker that was able to get in...
564 2011-07-02 03:34:05 <egecko> thats ridiculous
565 2011-07-02 03:34:37 <phantomcircuit> egecko, it really is
566 2011-07-02 03:34:52 <egecko> thats like robbing half a million from a bank in 10s and then selling them for a penny each.. absolutely ridiculous
567 2011-07-02 03:35:03 <dubbz82> ...wouldn't it be more beneficial to trade through a multitude of other sources
568 2011-07-02 03:35:09 <dubbz82> rather than just dealing with mtgox
569 2011-07-02 03:35:11 <egecko> obviously a super criminal mastermind </sarcasm>
570 2011-07-02 03:35:14 <dubbz82> or am i just being too logical?
571 2011-07-02 03:35:50 <phantomcircuit> egecko, lol yeah that's the worst part of the entire thing, the attacker is just so clearly incompetent, what does that say about mtgox?
572 2011-07-02 03:36:27 <egecko> all that says about mtgox is that they need more resources to continue their progression to being a major exchange
573 2011-07-02 03:36:44 <egecko> look at the flash crash in the nyse in may 2010
574 2011-07-02 03:37:02 <phantomcircuit> egecko, the flash crash on the nyse is in no way related to what happened with mtgox
575 2011-07-02 03:37:10 <phantomcircuit> they're not even in the same ball park
576 2011-07-02 03:37:14 <phantomcircuit> let me put it this way
577 2011-07-02 03:37:28 <dubbz82> mtgox needs to move their shit to an outside country
578 2011-07-02 03:37:29 <phantomcircuit> 100% of trades on the NYSE when the flash crash occurred where legitimate
579 2011-07-02 03:37:38 <egecko> bullshit.
580 2011-07-02 03:37:40 <dubbz82> where they don't have to worry about the 1000 per day limit.
581 2011-07-02 03:38:04 <phantomcircuit> egecko, lol what do you think caused the flash crash? hackers? nope 1 guy with 1 trade for 1 billion dollars in P&G
582 2011-07-02 03:38:09 <phantomcircuit> egecko, and the trade was legit
583 2011-07-02 03:38:59 <egecko> that was the inital cause, yes, and it was then exacerbated by trading algorithms... and i wasnt trying to link the two causually
584 2011-07-02 03:39:19 <phantomcircuit> the flash crash was caused by a combination of algorithmic trading and a failure to take into account the outsized effect that P&G had on the stability indexes
585 2011-07-02 03:39:23 <egecko> but in the flash crash you had the major indices plummet by a rather significant percentage
586 2011-07-02 03:39:31 <egecko> just like with the hack of mt gox
587 2011-07-02 03:39:47 <dubbz82> though tbh, the 1000 per day limit is fine for most people anyways
588 2011-07-02 03:39:49 <phantomcircuit> yes the difference being that all of the trades on the major indexes where with real money
589 2011-07-02 03:40:00 <dubbz82> because MOST PEOPLE aren't actually pulling 1000 dollars per day out
590 2011-07-02 03:40:00 <egecko> the end result being the people in the nyse crash DID lose money and significantly larger amounts than the fuss being made about mtgox
591 2011-07-02 03:40:11 <phantomcircuit> what happened on mtgox was as if the NYSE credited someone with a trillion dollars and they used that to crash the market
592 2011-07-02 03:40:48 <phantomcircuit> egecko, the only people who lost money in the flash crash where people with stop loss orders, and guess what? they deserve what they got
593 2011-07-02 03:40:55 <phantomcircuit> a stop loss order is foolish
594 2011-07-02 03:40:59 <egecko> im not drawing causual links, im talking about the fallout in economic terms
595 2011-07-02 03:41:08 <egecko> a stop loss order isnt foolish
596 2011-07-02 03:41:11 <phantomcircuit> the fallout is very different
597 2011-07-02 03:41:21 <egecko> it is if you are playing with a few grand of life savings, yes
598 2011-07-02 03:41:31 <egecko> but say you're trading millions or hundreds of millions
599 2011-07-02 03:41:36 <egecko> and its not your own money
600 2011-07-02 03:41:56 <sacarlson> phantomcircuit: I'm still a beleaver in stop loss limit orders
601 2011-07-02 03:42:03 <phantomcircuit> facepalm
602 2011-07-02 03:42:39 <egecko> the problem with stop loss orders is in the event of a huge crash you are gonna have to take the loss even though it may only be temporary and a flaw
603 2011-07-02 03:42:50 <phantomcircuit> with a stop loss a trader with a lot of money and brass balls can run through the stops causing a market sell off and then purchase shares at pennies on the dollar
604 2011-07-02 03:43:05 <egecko> but for less volatile investments its a good c.y.a. if you got serious bucks riding on it
605 2011-07-02 03:43:08 <phantomcircuit> a stop loss is a great plan if you want to be vulnerable to a known (LEGAL!) trading attack
606 2011-07-02 03:43:42 <egecko> the only way to not be vulnerable is to never hold an investment for longer than a day
607 2011-07-02 03:44:23 <phantomcircuit> there's a difference between vulnerable to market fluctuations and vulnerable to a calculated attack to trigger your algorithmic trading (which is what a stop loss is)
608 2011-07-02 03:44:26 <egecko> and that means you're now a day trader and subject to the PDT ruler.. not a easy rule to comply with.
609 2011-07-02 03:44:59 <phantomcircuit> basically i see a stop loss as the simplest algorithmic trading tool available
610 2011-07-02 03:45:17 <phantomcircuit> it's like trying to fight a lion with a toothpick
611 2011-07-02 03:45:21 <egecko> its going to be interesting to see how the sec/finra/central banks and govts respond to bitcoin
612 2011-07-02 03:45:53 <egecko> stop losses are just a way of saying "im too lazy to watch this investment, but i dont wanna lose *all* my money if it crashes"
613 2011-07-02 03:46:21 <egecko> at which point you should have your money being managed by a professional, i.e. put it in a mutual fund with a good manager
614 2011-07-02 03:46:47 <egecko> it would be interesting if there was a BTC-stock exchange
615 2011-07-02 03:47:11 <phantomcircuit> egecko, that was actually my point
616 2011-07-02 03:47:34 <phantomcircuit> a stop loss is retarded, it's basically an admission that you dont have the time to watch your own investments
617 2011-07-02 03:48:20 <egecko> true, but we dont want fools to throw away all their money and then be a drain on society do we? :)  at least with the stop loss, society is only on the hook for like 90% of their foolishness
618 2011-07-02 03:48:36 <phantomcircuit> what?
619 2011-07-02 03:48:45 <phantomcircuit> society shouldn't be on the hook at all
620 2011-07-02 03:48:46 <phantomcircuit> ;)
621 2011-07-02 03:49:16 <egecko> shouldn't, but that's in the perfect world where there's also perfect newtonian physics too :)
622 2011-07-02 03:49:38 <phantomcircuit> heh
623 2011-07-02 03:49:42 <phantomcircuit> i can say this
624 2011-07-02 03:49:48 <phantomcircuit> britcoin will never reverse a trade
625 2011-07-02 03:49:50 <phantomcircuit> ever
626 2011-07-02 03:50:07 <TruthTaco> EVER
627 2011-07-02 03:50:15 <phantomcircuit> yes
628 2011-07-02 03:50:16 <phantomcircuit> ever
629 2011-07-02 03:50:24 <phantomcircuit> that's what i sai
630 2011-07-02 03:50:25 <phantomcircuit> d
631 2011-07-02 03:50:53 <egecko> hey, more power to 'em! :)
632 2011-07-02 03:51:41 <egecko> im ambivalent with whether or not the rollback was right or not
633 2011-07-02 03:52:05 <phantomcircuit> with mtgox or the nyse
634 2011-07-02 03:52:17 <phantomcircuit> with mtgox i believe it was necessary because he literally couldn't cover
635 2011-07-02 03:52:28 <egecko> mtgox... on the ideaological side, sure, it definately shouldn't have been done.. free market and what not.. mt gox's E&O insurance should have covered their loss/liabilities
636 2011-07-02 03:52:32 <phantomcircuit> with the nyse it was just a give away to the algo traders who lost a ton of money
637 2011-07-02 03:52:44 <phantomcircuit> i doubt he has insurance
638 2011-07-02 03:52:55 <egecko> but on the other hand, half a million is getting to the ballpark where people end up getting violent over that kind of cash disappearing
639 2011-07-02 03:53:12 <egecko> if he doesnt have insurance, then he should get the shaft and be on the line for 100% of the losses
640 2011-07-02 03:53:41 <egecko> (thats kind of the purpose of having business insurance ;))
641 2011-07-02 03:54:11 <egecko> afk
642 2011-07-02 03:54:50 <phantomcircuit> egecko, no it was 500K BTC
643 2011-07-02 03:54:54 <phantomcircuit> so 8.6 million USD
644 2011-07-02 03:55:00 <phantomcircuit> (at the price right before crash)
645 2011-07-02 03:59:45 <egecko> even more so then.. thats the kind of money people start disappearing over
646 2011-07-02 04:00:30 <phantomcircuit> kind of my point really
647 2011-07-02 04:11:58 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: heh, that's awful big talk :)  all mature markets reverse trades at one time or another.  It is likely that UK has laws just like other countries, about knowingly distributing stolen funds.  If that is the case, legal obligations can force a trade reverse.
648 2011-07-02 04:13:16 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, let me be clear, britcoin will never reverse trades unless literally forced to do so by authorities
649 2011-07-02 04:14:50 <lfm> bitcoin did a rollback once too on the overflow bug
650 2011-07-02 04:22:10 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: ok :)
651 2011-07-02 04:22:42 <jgarzik> s/never/never ... unless/
652 2011-07-02 04:22:50 <jgarzik> indeed
653 2011-07-02 04:23:41 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, never unless it's out of our hands
654 2011-07-02 04:24:31 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, although i do not believe there are any uk regulations about rolling back trades, there likely are however regulations about bankruptcy liquidation which would be the actual solution to a major fuck up
655 2011-07-02 04:26:39 <wasabi2> Yay. My miner works.
656 2011-07-02 04:29:40 <rethaw> wasabi2: you wrote a miner?
657 2011-07-02 04:30:46 <wasabi2> Uh huh.
658 2011-07-02 04:31:00 <wasabi2> windows only .Net
659 2011-07-02 04:31:12 <rethaw> nice!
660 2011-07-02 04:34:39 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i can say however that the 2 trades for 0.01GBP @ 5000 GBP/BTC will not be reversed
661 2011-07-02 04:35:04 <JFK911> haha what
662 2011-07-02 04:35:35 <phantomcircuit> yeah some joker put in 2 trades for 0.01GBP @ 5000 GBP/BTC before the order matching was changed to be fifo
663 2011-07-02 04:36:02 <phantomcircuit> so they managed to buy BTC @ 5000 GBP/BTC but only for a very small amount
664 2011-07-02 04:36:19 <JFK911> cool way to waste $100
665 2011-07-02 04:36:31 <phantomcircuit> no they wasted 0.01GBP
666 2011-07-02 04:36:44 <nameless> |and they got 5000 btc?
667 2011-07-02 04:36:47 <JFK911> 5000 gbp per btc
668 2011-07-02 04:36:52 <JFK911> is how i read that
669 2011-07-02 04:36:52 <phantomcircuit> actually i forget lemme see
670 2011-07-02 04:37:11 <JFK911> that would mean 50gbp for 0.01 btc right
671 2011-07-02 04:37:34 <phantomcircuit> yes but they spent < 1 GBP
672 2011-07-02 04:37:38 <phantomcircuit> forget exactly how much it was
673 2011-07-02 04:37:46 <JFK911> so what did they get for bitcoins
674 2011-07-02 04:37:49 <phantomcircuit> you can do VERY sub fractional cents on britcoin
675 2011-07-02 04:38:35 <phantomcircuit> http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/britcoinGBP#rg60zig1-minzvztgSzm1g10zm2g25
676 2011-07-02 04:38:38 <phantomcircuit> lol chart is lol
677 2011-07-02 04:39:32 <phantomcircuit> you cant see the real trades because of the ridiculous outliers
678 2011-07-02 04:50:51 <pogden> guys
679 2011-07-02 04:50:52 <pogden> guys
680 2011-07-02 04:50:54 <pogden> guys
681 2011-07-02 04:50:55 <pogden> guys
682 2011-07-02 04:51:06 <pogden> I met jargon irl last night
683 2011-07-02 04:51:16 <phantomcircuit> uh
684 2011-07-02 04:51:17 <phantomcircuit> neat?
685 2011-07-02 04:51:19 <phantomcircuit> who is that
686 2011-07-02 04:51:23 <pogden> oh
687 2011-07-02 04:51:31 <pogden> he was on here a few weeks ago
688 2011-07-02 04:51:48 <pogden> talking about base58.h
689 2011-07-02 04:52:06 <neofutur> 2 days ago he trolle base58
690 2011-07-02 04:52:21 <neofutur> but with another username
691 2011-07-02 04:52:29 <pogden> really?
692 2011-07-02 04:52:37 <neofutur> (10:20) <    pogden>  jargon@nsasec:root/sec> echo "hello"|base64
693 2011-07-02 04:52:46 <neofutur> pogden
694 2011-07-02 04:53:02 <neofutur> pretty sillhy copy/paste :p
695 2011-07-02 04:53:30 <pogden> oh
696 2011-07-02 04:53:48 <neofutur> nearly telling jgarzik was an alien infiltrated in bitcoins :p
697 2011-07-02 04:53:50 <pogden> maybe i shouldn't have let him use my computer
698 2011-07-02 04:53:57 <neofutur> i exagerate , but just a little
699 2011-07-02 04:54:02 <pogden> he's definitely insane
700 2011-07-02 05:46:46 <diki> ;;bc,stats
701 2011-07-02 05:46:48 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134341 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 730 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 8 hours, 1 minute, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1576142.36891222
702 2011-07-02 07:32:12 <norulez> hey guys. does bitcoind have memory leaks? the memory usage seems to be going up and not slowing down.. been running for 12 hours now
703 2011-07-02 07:33:06 <Diablo-D3> thats normal
704 2011-07-02 07:33:22 <Diablo-D3> eventually it will gain sentience and have sex with your female relatives.
705 2011-07-02 07:34:11 <doublec> norulez: how much memory is it using?
706 2011-07-02 07:34:24 <norulez> it got up to 1GB
707 2011-07-02 07:35:32 <doublec> I've seen it hit that too
708 2011-07-02 07:35:34 <samlander> can you guys tell me what the significance of \0 is?
709 2011-07-02 07:35:56 <viggi> Null char?
710 2011-07-02 07:36:07 <norulez> is that normal? seems to get to 1GB with no problems at all
711 2011-07-02 07:37:41 <doublec> it floats between 200MB-1GB for me
712 2011-07-02 07:37:50 <midnightmagic> nice. mrb_ hints in #bitcoin-mining that there exists SHA-256 algorithmic optimization which will run a 5970 at 1GH/s+
713 2011-07-02 07:39:23 <Hetairie> Hello
714 2011-07-02 07:39:34 <Hetairie> for what bitcoin is no secure?
715 2011-07-02 07:40:27 <Hetairie> you are new developpers?
716 2011-07-02 07:43:49 <norulez> doublec: is there any way i can get my bitcoind memory usage down?
717 2011-07-02 07:44:46 <phantomcircuit> Hetairie, try that again... but making sense
718 2011-07-02 07:44:54 <doublec> norulez: no idea, sorry
719 2011-07-02 07:45:44 <phantomcircuit> Hetairie, people in belgium speak english right?
720 2011-07-02 07:59:13 <Hetairie> phantomcircuit people in belgium speak french.
721 2011-07-02 07:59:56 <Hetairie> only colonisator come in beligum for try to take power speak other language.
722 2011-07-02 08:00:20 <phantomcircuit> wat
723 2011-07-02 08:00:23 <phantomcircuit> i got the first part
724 2011-07-02 08:01:18 <Hetairie> so..
725 2011-07-02 08:01:24 <Hetairie> for what bitcoin is no secure?
726 2011-07-02 08:01:56 <Leo_II> can somebody tell me how to tackle my biggest concern about pools? I've posted it several times on the forum (just now here again: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=25026.msg314726#msg314726 ) and on the wiki but nobody seems to care. so either it is too dumb to even answer it or nobody has an answer as its actually real.
727 2011-07-02 08:03:48 <cacheson> Leo_II: cuddlefish had a proposal a while ago to render pools unable to pull off attacks
728 2011-07-02 08:04:00 <cacheson> don't know if people are still working on it or what
729 2011-07-02 08:04:18 <Leo_II> cacheson: you have a link?
730 2011-07-02 08:04:27 <cacheson> not at the moment
731 2011-07-02 08:04:32 <cacheson> let me see if I can find it
732 2011-07-02 08:04:45 <Leo_II> cacheson: so the line of thought is a real threat?
733 2011-07-02 08:04:55 <Leo_II> i'm not just paranoid?
734 2011-07-02 08:05:07 <cacheson> lots of people are nervous about the pools, yes
735 2011-07-02 08:05:44 <cacheson> found it
736 2011-07-02 08:05:48 <cacheson> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9137.0
737 2011-07-02 08:06:25 <Leo_II> my proposal burns down to: let not my miner mine for his bitcoind but for my bitcoind and my bitcoind talks with pools about shares
738 2011-07-02 08:06:27 <Leo_II> thanx
739 2011-07-02 08:06:50 <cacheson> looks like no activity since june 8th
740 2011-07-02 08:10:51 <Leo_II> :(
741 2011-07-02 08:11:20 <doublec> Leo_II: there's also this approach http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=18313
742 2011-07-02 08:18:55 <justmoon> Leo_II, can you articulate your concern in a sentence and I'll try to answer it
743 2011-07-02 08:19:42 <cacheson> justmoon: large mining pools represent a single point of failure for the bitcoin network
744 2011-07-02 08:19:47 <Leo_II> doublec: thanx but this one sounds not practical
745 2011-07-02 08:20:36 <doublec> Leo_II: what about it sounds not practical
746 2011-07-02 08:20:58 <Leo_II> justmoon: mining pools getting big easily by rewarding more, being able to destroy smaller pools by faking to be a miner and stay on top by just rewarding more than others.
747 2011-07-02 08:20:59 <justmoon> cacheson, Leo_II: ok, that's a FAQ. pools have no power of their own since they don't do any hashing of their own. If they misbehave their members switch away to other pools, because network destabilization means lower exchange rate, means less income for miners.
748 2011-07-02 08:21:20 <justmoon> in fact the one time a pool (deepbit) got more than 51% miners switches away preemptively
749 2011-07-02 08:21:37 <justmoon> finally, pools themselves also make more money if the network is stable and running well
750 2011-07-02 08:22:15 <cacheson> I'm still not exactly comfortable with that
751 2011-07-02 08:22:27 <cacheson> it's a problem that should be dealt with
752 2011-07-02 08:22:40 <cacheson> a good solution was proposed, but implementation seems to have stagnated
753 2011-07-02 08:23:32 <Leo_II> justmoon: what if those 20 pools all were controlled by one mastermind? they all look different and all take zero to negative fee. greed will drive miners there and they will rely on others to fix the problem while they get btc easily. in fact as a miner i couldn't care less if the btc gets to a low point as difficulty will follow.
754 2011-07-02 08:23:53 <justmoon> Leo_II, again, as soon as the 20 controlled pools start misbehaving miners would switch away
755 2011-07-02 08:24:12 <justmoon> note that 51% of hashing power can't actually do anything, but temporarily mess with processing
756 2011-07-02 08:24:33 <justmoon> so it doesn't matter if anyone abuses his 51% as long as we can detect it and it'll fix itself
757 2011-07-02 08:25:04 <justmoon> and it *will* fix itself, because whatever miners are in those pools are gonna see the exchange rate drop like a stone and switch asap to restore network functionality
758 2011-07-02 08:25:41 <cacheson> justmoon: it's not a doomsday scenario, but it's still definitely not good
759 2011-07-02 08:25:57 <justmoon> cacheson, yeah, but it's also extremely unlikely to happen
760 2011-07-02 08:25:57 <Leo_II> justmoon: how would they know who the evils are? so you claim if half the hashing power goes into invalid blocks as the other half decided to cut the difficulty in half by refusing the other half's blocks that is not a problem?