1 2011-08-16 00:00:07 <RealSolid> i0coin being released tonight
  2 2011-08-16 00:00:14 <raininja> are there any other valid clients?
  3 2011-08-16 00:00:33 <RealSolid> b4epoche: thanks for adding to the debate
  4 2011-08-16 00:01:09 <lfm> RealSolid: lol oh you want them to be worth something so you can clean up. good luck with that, you're not the first to think they can tweak btc and get rich
  5 2011-08-16 00:01:26 <b4epoche_> RealSolid:  thanks for ignoring my questions about your experiences (or lack thereof)
  6 2011-08-16 00:01:28 <Namegduf> I should make a BTC derivative that takes it to its natural conclusion
  7 2011-08-16 00:01:36 <Namegduf> 1 minute blocks, 1000 coins per block
  8 2011-08-16 00:01:36 <RealSolid> lfm: no i dont really care about the money, but its good that there are some improvements heading into another client over btc
  9 2011-08-16 00:02:01 <lfm> 1 day blocks, sutable for interplanetary commerce
 10 2011-08-16 00:02:10 <Namegduf> Call it "FastCoins", make the logo like the BTC one but with racing stripes, and fins to lower air resistance.
 11 2011-08-16 00:02:42 <RealSolid> yah well btc developers should take notice because if they sit on their thumbs whilst alt chains build new features in, it will be superceded no doubt
 12 2011-08-16 00:02:45 <b4epoche_> and a scoop for better air flow into the super charged engine
 13 2011-08-16 00:02:51 <Namegduf> b4epoche_: Sounds great.
 14 2011-08-16 00:03:08 <luke-jr> RealSolid: the chain is not the problem
 15 2011-08-16 00:03:13 <luke-jr> RealSolid: the design is the problem
 16 2011-08-16 00:03:14 <Namegduf> RealSolid: They don't have a choice without breaking all existing clients. And I doubt it will be superceded.
 17 2011-08-16 00:03:16 <lfm> no doubt, well actually we do dobt it
 18 2011-08-16 00:03:18 <luke-jr> I don't see anyone trying to address that
 19 2011-08-16 00:03:28 <RealSolid> luke-jr: the design?
 20 2011-08-16 00:03:33 <b4epoche_> RealSolid:  there's a reason to be cautious here&  all you early adopters can keep losing your money
 21 2011-08-16 00:03:46 <Namegduf> b4epoche_: Unless they sell out at the right time.
 22 2011-08-16 00:03:50 <Namegduf> Pump and dump away!
 23 2011-08-16 00:03:55 <RealSolid> luke-jr: i0coin has improved some facets of the btc design, so its a step in the right direction
 24 2011-08-16 00:04:04 <luke-jr> RealSolid: perhaps
 25 2011-08-16 00:04:04 <Namegduf> i0coin has done nothing design wise.
 26 2011-08-16 00:04:12 <luke-jr> RealSolid: but baby steps don't work here
 27 2011-08-16 00:04:14 <RealSolid> btc isnt that unusable, but yes it could be improved a fair bit
 28 2011-08-16 00:04:16 <Namegduf> It's tweaked some of the variables in the existing design.
 29 2011-08-16 00:04:26 <RealSolid> luke-jr: the biggest improvement needed is developer tools
 30 2011-08-16 00:04:28 <lfm> RealSolid: and if other people dont see tham as improvments, well they're just stupid I guess.
 31 2011-08-16 00:04:29 <RealSolid> and better API
 32 2011-08-16 00:04:32 <luke-jr> I'd eliminate the block chain.
 33 2011-08-16 00:04:34 <Namegduf> Same chair, you just made the legs shorter.
 34 2011-08-16 00:04:35 <b4epoche_> and encrypted the wallet Namegduf
 35 2011-08-16 00:04:48 <luke-jr> replace it with a transaction tree
 36 2011-08-16 00:04:48 <Namegduf> That's software implementation, not system design.
 37 2011-08-16 00:05:08 <luke-jr> confirmations go from 0% (just sent) to 100% (entire network agrees)
 38 2011-08-16 00:05:08 <Namegduf> Bitcoin clients can have encrypted wallets.
 39 2011-08-16 00:05:14 <b4epoche_> better API?  oh, that's a serious design change
 40 2011-08-16 00:06:18 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: the Satoshi client already has encrypted wallets
 41 2011-08-16 00:06:52 <b4epoche_> luke-jr:  not the official release, and RealSolid claimed that was one of the 'improvements' of iocoin
 42 2011-08-16 00:07:28 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: straw man
 43 2011-08-16 00:08:50 <b4epoche_> luke-jr:  indeed it is, but it's apparently an improvement associated with iocoin
 44 2011-08-16 00:17:01 <RealSolid> i didnt say better API was associated with i0coin
 45 2011-08-16 00:17:04 <RealSolid> learn to read
 46 2011-08-16 00:17:52 <b4epoche_> learn about context:  [22:04:29] <RealSolid> and better API
 47 2011-08-16 00:18:05 <RealSolid> and what did i say above that
 48 2011-08-16 00:18:16 <RealSolid> "and" is following on from something isnt it?
 49 2011-08-16 00:18:24 <RealSolid> are you ESL?
 50 2011-08-16 00:18:50 <b4epoche_> hence, learn to put thoughts together&  but, oh, I guess you're new to IRC
 51 2011-08-16 00:19:08 <RealSolid> haha, right, its my fault for you failing to read, gotta love irc
 52 2011-08-16 00:20:29 <b4epoche_> maybe if your grammar didn't sux so bad I wouldn't have misinterpretted what you said
 53 2011-08-16 00:21:40 <RealSolid> luke-jr: the biggest improvement needed is developer tools and better API
 54 2011-08-16 00:21:46 <Graet> yup lookimng closer and closer to the time tio start scamcoin - ppl will flock i can just tell :/
 55 2011-08-16 00:21:48 <RealSolid> if you have trouble understanding that, you need to go back to school
 56 2011-08-16 00:21:54 <b4epoche_> and if you read closely you'll also see that I never said better API was associated with iocoin
 57 2011-08-16 00:22:23 <Graet> scamcoin > *
 58 2011-08-16 00:22:29 <Graet> sorry fact
 59 2011-08-16 00:24:08 <luke-jr> Graet: is your pool on scamcoin?
 60 2011-08-16 00:24:21 <b4epoche_> shit, I just got approved to give a TEDx talk on bitcoin...
 61 2011-08-16 00:24:42 <Graet> not yet luke-jr
 62 2011-08-16 00:24:45 <b4epoche_> I'll be sure to mention iocoin, ixcoin, scamcoin, et al.
 63 2011-08-16 00:25:03 <Graet> sweet b4epoche
 64 2011-08-16 00:25:13 <Graet> mention ozco.in too :P
 65 2011-08-16 00:25:18 <luke-jr> no, Eligius
 66 2011-08-16 00:25:23 <b4epoche_> should be fun
 67 2011-08-16 00:25:24 <luke-jr> Eligius actually innovates!
 68 2011-08-16 00:25:41 <Namegduf> b4epoche_: Don't forget FastCoin
 69 2011-08-16 00:25:49 <luke-jr> or PizzaCoin
 70 2011-08-16 00:25:53 <Graet> not every one says thats good luke-jr :P
 71 2011-08-16 00:26:00 <luke-jr> Graet: no?
 72 2011-08-16 00:26:08 <luke-jr> well, I'm happy to have an innovative pool
 73 2011-08-16 00:26:09 <luke-jr> :p
 74 2011-08-16 00:26:34 <Graet> luke-jr how long have you been in btc? and you dont realise yet the diverse range of opinions?
 75 2011-08-16 00:27:00 <luke-jr> Graet: since January
 76 2011-08-16 00:27:06 <Graet> i'm happy for you to have an innovative pool too
 77 2011-08-16 00:27:22 <luke-jr> Graet: I wasn't aware anti-innovation was a real opinion
 78 2011-08-16 00:27:32 <twobits> Ludites?
 79 2011-08-16 00:27:41 <Graet> um oh hahahahahaha
 80 2011-08-16 00:28:21 <Graet> a "real' opinion - so one that agrees with yours?
 81 2011-08-16 00:28:38 <RealSolid> lawl
 82 2011-08-16 00:31:12 <luke-jr> Graet: no, like one that people actually hold
 83 2011-08-16 00:32:13 <Graet> everyone has opinions luke-jr who are you or i (in our opinion) to judge them?
 84 2011-08-16 00:32:23 <Graet> or thiers?
 85 2011-08-16 00:32:52 <luke-jr> I didn't say I was judging them
 86 2011-08-16 00:32:57 <b4epoche_> luke-jr judges all, and makes innovations many seem to consider bad for the network
 87 2011-08-16 00:33:03 <luke-jr> I just didn't know people actually held an opinion against innovation
 88 2011-08-16 00:33:05 <Graet> ok then define "real opinion"
 89 2011-08-16 00:33:20 <luke-jr> Graet: "real opinion" = an opinion actually held by a real human being
 90 2011-08-16 00:33:36 <Graet> oh as oposed to a nick on irc?
 91 2011-08-16 00:33:45 <luke-jr> as opposed to an opinion that nobody holds at all
 92 2011-08-16 00:33:50 <Graet> lol
 93 2011-08-16 00:33:55 <lfm> some call it "against inovation" and some call it "respect for tradition"
 94 2011-08-16 00:33:59 <luke-jr> like the opinion that the Earth orbits Mars.
 95 2011-08-16 00:34:15 <luke-jr> nobody believes that.
 96 2011-08-16 00:34:28 <lfm> nope, its on the back of a giant turtle
 97 2011-08-16 00:34:49 <luke-jr> lfm: turtles all the way down?
 98 2011-08-16 00:34:50 <Graet> no some mythical being invented it all
 99 2011-08-16 00:35:11 <Graet> anyway, its been fun but i have other stuff to do
100 2011-08-16 00:35:12 <Graet> l8rs
101 2011-08-16 00:35:18 <lfm> bye
102 2011-08-16 00:35:41 <Graet> :)
103 2011-08-16 00:35:46 <lianj> save the cheerleader
104 2011-08-16 00:36:41 <Graet> shh thats what i'm off to do ;)
105 2011-08-16 01:09:28 <sacarlson> seems like bitcoin is getting more blocks per minit lately
106 2011-08-16 01:36:13 <nanotube> sacarlson: difficulty went down recently
107 2011-08-16 02:05:25 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
108 2011-08-16 02:05:28 <gribble> Current Blocks: 141139 | Current Difficulty: 1805700.8361937 | Next Difficulty At Block: 143135 | Next Difficulty In: 1996 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 4 days, 19 hours, 19 minutes, and 4 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1401035.52308756
109 2011-08-16 02:05:35 <luke-jr> O.O
110 2011-08-16 02:05:45 <luke-jr> I know it's inaccurate, but a drop prediction already?
111 2011-08-16 02:06:27 <nanotube> some unlucky blocks will make it move
112 2011-08-16 02:13:47 <luke-jr> jgarzik: FYI, cgminer seems to be dropping support for CPU miners
113 2011-08-16 03:10:12 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r7c62c9b5e56b cgminer/linux-usb-cgminer: Add a linux-usb-cgminer guide courtesy of Kano.
114 2011-08-16 03:10:14 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r81d718a256c6 cgminer/NEWS: Update news for 1.5.5.
115 2011-08-16 03:10:15 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r6e6d7176ad49 cgminer/linux-usb-cgminer: It's 8, not cool 8)
116 2011-08-16 03:35:18 <shadders> DiabloD3: how long does diablominer hold on to work for by default if pool is LP enabled by no rollntime?
117 2011-08-16 03:53:58 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * d2d728728bc5 r26 / (6 files in 2 dirs):
118 2011-08-16 04:18:17 <DiabloD3> shadders: 5 seconds
119 2011-08-16 04:18:34 <DiabloD3> no wait
120 2011-08-16 04:18:38 <DiabloD3> I think 60
121 2011-08-16 04:20:13 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r41a4be7dff68 cgminer/configure.ac: Bump version number.
122 2011-08-16 04:20:15 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * re2a049465337 cgminer/README: Friendly reminder.
123 2011-08-16 04:20:16 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r05dadc90512a cgminer/README: Add pkg-config to listed dependencies.
124 2011-08-16 04:20:41 <shadders> thx... just trying to work out why diablo reports stales on from the same pool where guiminer reports none..
125 2011-08-16 04:21:25 <shadders> reports more than combined unknown-work and stales in log...
126 2011-08-16 05:10:14 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r4daca363f0f0 cgminer/README: Recommend O2 instead of O3 since it can make windows binaries fail.
127 2011-08-16 05:20:13 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r58eb4d585995 cgminer/Makefile.am: Add bench_block to makefile.
128 2011-08-16 05:29:22 <quellhorst> so why were fees added to the bitcoin client recently?
129 2011-08-16 05:30:07 <quellhorst> and the client is also doing some rounding up to higher fees than the "required amount"!
130 2011-08-16 06:30:35 <[Tycho]> Nice fees I got there... http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000000b536694efbd2b78574b489c8c8e4b27a9c9fbf24fdf61cf73b
131 2011-08-16 06:31:40 <Nesetalis> o.O
132 2011-08-16 06:32:01 <Nesetalis> some one moving ALOT of bitcoins
133 2011-08-16 06:32:45 <Joric> 26 thousands
134 2011-08-16 06:38:01 <jeremias> fee 16 bitcoins?
135 2011-08-16 06:38:09 <jeremias> why would anyone put a fee like that?
136 2011-08-16 06:38:16 <Nesetalis> likely had to
137 2011-08-16 06:38:28 <Nesetalis> based on KB
138 2011-08-16 06:38:50 <Nesetalis> was almost a meg
139 2011-08-16 06:39:11 <jeremias> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/2ac591ce643f96fa431712595363a418809cb866fba39ec68c2170c648eb472c
140 2011-08-16 06:39:13 <jeremias> this?
141 2011-08-16 06:39:20 <jeremias> Size?: 977 bytes
142 2011-08-16 06:39:38 <jeremias> size is only 977 bytes and fee is 16 bitcoins... lol
143 2011-08-16 06:39:39 <Nesetalis> ops miss read
144 2011-08-16 06:39:48 <Nesetalis> thought it said 977kb not bytes
145 2011-08-16 06:39:53 <jeremias> makes no sense to me
146 2011-08-16 06:39:57 <edcba> hidden transaction through fee :)
147 2011-08-16 06:40:12 <jeremias> lol, to a random receiver? :D
148 2011-08-16 06:40:25 <jeremias> some lucky miner
149 2011-08-16 06:40:31 <edcba> not if receiver is only one to know about that transaction
150 2011-08-16 06:40:44 <jeremias> well yeah...
151 2011-08-16 06:40:57 <jeremias> great way to launder bitcoins :D
152 2011-08-16 06:41:08 <jeremias> only a pretty slow way if you use fees like that...
153 2011-08-16 06:41:13 <edcba> indeed
154 2011-08-16 06:41:36 <jeremias> move illegally obtained bitcoins to miner bitcoins...
155 2011-08-16 06:49:56 <neofutur> hi all, i m having a look at the bitcoind options ( bitcoind --help  )
156 2011-08-16 06:50:17 <neofutur> I can specify -gen but theres no option to specify the number of CPU to use ?
157 2011-08-16 06:50:46 <neofutur> like setgenerate <generate> [genproclimit]
158 2011-08-16 06:55:47 <jeremias> lol, why would you want to generate coins with CPU in the first place?
159 2011-08-16 06:56:00 <jeremias> it's waste of electricity
160 2011-08-16 06:56:16 <neofutur> not your business
161 2011-08-16 06:56:23 <neofutur> nd not my question
162 2011-08-16 07:14:39 <graingert> what's the estimate for the 0.4 release date?
163 2011-08-16 07:45:29 <marf_away> how much more unsave would bitcoin be with 5 minint blocks?
164 2011-08-16 07:46:47 <kinlo> marf_away: you would halve the difficulty, but I think it will not be that much unsafer...
165 2011-08-16 07:46:54 <Graet> it would be exactly the same unsave
166 2011-08-16 07:47:02 <kinlo> you would have more orphans
167 2011-08-16 07:47:08 <kinlo> and faking a block will be easyer
168 2011-08-16 07:47:08 <marf_away> much more?
169 2011-08-16 07:47:16 <kinlo> so you'd have to double your confirmations
170 2011-08-16 07:47:50 <marf_away> but the current state is bad
171 2011-08-16 07:47:57 <marf_away> 30 minits and more
172 2011-08-16 07:48:01 <marf_away> without blocks
173 2011-08-16 07:48:37 <kinlo> marf_away: and that's bad why?
174 2011-08-16 07:48:48 <kinlo> at this moment we don't do that many transactions yet
175 2011-08-16 07:49:11 <marf_away> it takes to long to get money from a to b
176 2011-08-16 07:50:01 <kinlo> marf_away: there will always be a delay... if you want something instant, you'll have to use something else then bitcoin
177 2011-08-16 07:50:05 <marf_away> maybe dont use the median, but an lowerbound
178 2011-08-16 07:50:17 <marf_away> for difficulty
179 2011-08-16 07:50:35 <kinlo> I'm not following
180 2011-08-16 07:50:52 <ThomasV> hi, did someone manage to compile genjix's libbitcoin ?
181 2011-08-16 07:51:32 <marf_away> make difficulty that way, that probability for break bigger than 20 minits is below 1%
182 2011-08-16 07:51:53 <marf_away> hm dont know never mind
183 2011-08-16 07:52:11 <marf_away> iam just unhappy, and hope there will be a solution
184 2011-08-16 07:55:18 <graingert> marf_away: yeah out of band transaction
185 2011-08-16 07:55:22 <graingert> s
186 2011-08-16 07:55:46 <graingert> or accepting 0 confirms for trivial payments
187 2011-08-16 07:55:55 <graingert> anyway it's still faster than credit cards
188 2011-08-16 07:56:08 <vegard> does anybody know why we collect transactions in blocks rather than just making every transaction a new block?
189 2011-08-16 07:56:09 <graingert> for time between purchase claim and it being impossible to reverse
190 2011-08-16 07:56:33 <graingert> vegard: because each block only contains the merkle root of a set of tx's
191 2011-08-16 07:56:44 <vegard> would it be too difficult to make transactions then?
192 2011-08-16 07:56:55 <graingert> obv
193 2011-08-16 07:57:05 <graingert> also each block has at least one tx in anyway
194 2011-08-16 07:57:41 <vegard> I mean: why the concept of blocks rather than just transactions? (each transaction would include the nonce, etc.)
195 2011-08-16 07:58:05 <graingert> vegard: otherwise you'd have to be a miner to make transactions
196 2011-08-16 07:58:13 <vegard> it's to distribute the cost of searching to the whole network, right?
197 2011-08-16 07:58:15 <graingert> vegard: go read the paper
198 2011-08-16 07:58:18 <vegard> heh
199 2011-08-16 07:58:26 <vegard> I have read the paper :)
200 2011-08-16 07:58:31 <graingert> read it some more
201 2011-08-16 07:58:42 <graingert> meditate on its glory
202 2011-08-16 07:59:47 <vegard> I guess my next question was: what's wrong with having to be a miner to make transactions?
203 2011-08-16 07:59:58 <vegard> but I will read it some more.
204 2011-08-16 08:00:21 <graingert> mining is like digging for gold
205 2011-08-16 08:00:27 <graingert> and transactions is sending gold
206 2011-08-16 08:00:34 <graingert> once you have dug up gold
207 2011-08-16 08:00:39 <graingert> you don't have to dig it up again
208 2011-08-16 08:00:44 <graingert> to give it to someone else
209 2011-08-16 08:00:58 <graingert> what you are thinking of is more like hashcash
210 2011-08-16 08:12:56 <wardearia> Can someone tell me the next four decimals for how many bitcoins will exist? 20,999,999.9769????
211 2011-08-16 08:15:38 <_Matthew_> Howdy guys.
212 2011-08-16 08:17:46 <_Matthew_> I have a question regarding using Bitcoin for innercorporate trading and transactions.
213 2011-08-16 08:17:49 <_Matthew_> Got a large conglomerat that wants to adopt Bitcoin with a separate block chain for use as a strictly intercompany transactions medium. I have been told due to the centralized manner in which this would operate, it would actually be dangerous, inefficient and something like "Open Transactions" would be much more suitable for the task.
214 2011-08-16 08:17:55 <_Matthew_> They insist on using it and claim that the security won't be an issue because they will have tens of thousands of PCs running it in their companies.
215 2011-08-16 08:18:31 <_Matthew_> Is this feasible, or am I missing something? If I am missing something, can anyone help me explain it to them why it won't work as they wish for it so that we can all save time and money trying?
216 2011-08-16 08:18:58 <gjs278> you would have to have computers mine to find blocks
217 2011-08-16 08:19:04 <gjs278> and you would have delays on transactions
218 2011-08-16 08:19:10 <gjs278> of at least 10 minutes
219 2011-08-16 08:19:35 <gjs278> and you would have fees too
220 2011-08-16 08:19:40 <_Matthew_> I dont think they're worried about the delays
221 2011-08-16 08:20:29 <Graet> _Matthew_ if they ' insist on using it " tell them to find someone that understands BTC to implement it
222 2011-08-16 08:21:23 <_Matthew_> Graet, thank goodness you're here.
223 2011-08-16 08:21:29 <_Matthew_> I explained to them what you had mentioned before.
224 2011-08-16 08:21:38 <_Matthew_> They said that it wouldn't be a problem
225 2011-08-16 08:21:48 <_Matthew_> They said that they are obsessed with just using it anyway
226 2011-08-16 08:22:03 <_Matthew_> Their bottom line is that they don't want it to be a part of the main block chain
227 2011-08-16 08:22:08 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: erm
228 2011-08-16 08:22:13 <DiabloD3> why dont they just use the main block chain?
229 2011-08-16 08:22:16 <Graet> cool, but they would need someone with a deep understanding to implement and oversee it
230 2011-08-16 08:22:30 <_Matthew_> because they want to transfer funds internally, overseas as well
231 2011-08-16 08:22:34 <DiabloD3> so/
232 2011-08-16 08:22:44 <DiabloD3> they can transfer it overseas BETTER with the main block chain
233 2011-08-16 08:22:52 <_Matthew_> in the millions of dollars a month range
234 2011-08-16 08:22:54 <DiabloD3> they no longer have to maintain the integrity of their own chain
235 2011-08-16 08:22:57 <Graet> imo they dont understand btc either, thats why its hard for them and _Matthew_ to work it out ;)
236 2011-08-16 08:22:58 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: so?
237 2011-08-16 08:23:33 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: thats like a drop in the bucket.
238 2011-08-16 08:23:37 <_Matthew_> Wouldn't buying millions of dollars a month in bitcoin and then turning around and selling them cause a market issue and or some risk on their part?
239 2011-08-16 08:23:50 <DiabloD3> why would they sell them?
240 2011-08-16 08:23:54 <_Matthew_> They don't want Bitcoin
241 2011-08-16 08:24:04 <_Matthew_> They want to use it as a device for sending fiat
242 2011-08-16 08:24:07 <DiabloD3> honestly, we dont want their business.
243 2011-08-16 08:24:37 <DiabloD3> they have a very large misunderstanding of how bitcoin works
244 2011-08-16 08:24:51 <_Matthew_> I apparently did too
245 2011-08-16 08:24:52 <DiabloD3> the more cpu power you have, the safer bitcoin is
246 2011-08-16 08:24:58 <DiabloD3> private chains are inherently unsafe.
247 2011-08-16 08:25:02 <_Matthew_> I am learning more thanks to you guys but I stilldon't know how to explain it
248 2011-08-16 08:25:06 <Graet> i made that point b4 DiabloD3
249 2011-08-16 08:25:18 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: why would they _sell_ the btc if its for internal use?
250 2011-08-16 08:25:21 <Graet> spent hours last night trying to help _Matthew_ understand
251 2011-08-16 08:25:30 <_Matthew_> lol
252 2011-08-16 08:25:33 <DiabloD3> just do all the business in bitcoin internally, just keep passing the btc around.
253 2011-08-16 08:25:34 <_Matthew_> less than 1 hour :P
254 2011-08-16 08:25:50 <_Matthew_> But then they are open to market fluctation and thus value risk
255 2011-08-16 08:25:54 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: nope
256 2011-08-16 08:25:59 <_Matthew_> I think what they want is something like Open Transactions
257 2011-08-16 08:26:00 <DiabloD3> THEY dont have to value btc realistically.
258 2011-08-16 08:26:11 <DiabloD3> they internally can just say 1 btc == 1000 USD
259 2011-08-16 08:26:13 <DiabloD3> and ignore what the market says
260 2011-08-16 08:26:15 <_Matthew_> Ah
261 2011-08-16 08:26:19 <_Matthew_> I see what you're saying
262 2011-08-16 08:26:24 <DiabloD3> its a token
263 2011-08-16 08:26:27 <_Matthew_> So use the main block chain for security,
264 2011-08-16 08:26:37 <_Matthew_> but internally redefine the market value
265 2011-08-16 08:26:41 <DiabloD3> yup.
266 2011-08-16 08:26:43 <_Matthew_> or a 'sub value'
267 2011-08-16 08:26:45 <_Matthew_> Genius.
268 2011-08-16 08:26:53 <_Matthew_> That would handle both issues presented earlier.
269 2011-08-16 08:27:09 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: btw, they may get what they want anyhow
270 2011-08-16 08:27:19 <DiabloD3> 1 btc may eventually equal 1000 usd
271 2011-08-16 08:27:46 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: and any coins they generate themselves are theirs to keep
272 2011-08-16 08:27:52 <DiabloD3> they dont HAVE to buy into the system
273 2011-08-16 08:28:01 <DiabloD3> its just faster to buy btc already for sale
274 2011-08-16 08:28:10 <_Matthew_> So as long as they set their own risk for lets say $10 for 1 BTC
275 2011-08-16 08:28:14 <_Matthew_> and are willing to lose that $10
276 2011-08-16 08:28:23 <_Matthew_> Then can redefine the market value themselves internally
277 2011-08-16 08:28:29 <DiabloD3> yup
278 2011-08-16 08:28:30 <_Matthew_> Still use BTC to its fullest
279 2011-08-16 08:28:39 <_Matthew_> But hold on
280 2011-08-16 08:28:42 <DiabloD3> they just need to make sure enough of their machines can contact the outside world
281 2011-08-16 08:28:50 <DiabloD3> well, actually, one
282 2011-08-16 08:28:53 <_Matthew_> that means that if someone wants to be really rich in their internal departments,
283 2011-08-16 08:29:01 <_Matthew_> all they'd need to do is buy outside market BTC
284 2011-08-16 08:29:03 <_Matthew_> and bring it in
285 2011-08-16 08:29:05 <_Matthew_> -_-;;;
286 2011-08-16 08:29:09 <DiabloD3> yes, which would cause a market spike
287 2011-08-16 08:29:17 <DiabloD3> which would increase the value of btc.
288 2011-08-16 08:29:20 <_Matthew_> Then that won't work again
289 2011-08-16 08:29:26 <DiabloD3> yes and no
290 2011-08-16 08:29:34 <DiabloD3> no one says you have to hand out actual bitcoin clients.
291 2011-08-16 08:29:39 <_Matthew_> Right
292 2011-08-16 08:29:40 <Graet> _Matthew_ [23:47:56] <_Matthew_> Well some dude on the newbies [02:26:52] <_Matthew_> Is there a way for th  from 1st q till end sorry man it was hours
293 2011-08-16 08:29:54 <_Matthew_> ?
294 2011-08-16 08:30:05 <_Matthew_> When did I say that?
295 2011-08-16 08:30:07 <_Matthew_> lol
296 2011-08-16 08:30:12 <DiabloD3> you could easily hand out unmarked bitcoin clients that just up the value *10 blindly
297 2011-08-16 08:30:12 <_Matthew_> Was that English?
298 2011-08-16 08:30:40 <Graet> last night my time _Matthew_ you dont remember the discussion?
299 2011-08-16 08:30:44 <DiabloD3> (and /10 the other way)
300 2011-08-16 08:30:59 <DiabloD3> or just create a "fakecoin" banking site for internal use
301 2011-08-16 08:31:02 <_Matthew_> Graet: I remember it perfectly. And to this moment I still agree that open Transactions is a better way to go
302 2011-08-16 08:31:22 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: why dont they care about deflation, btw?
303 2011-08-16 08:31:31 <DiabloD3> it'd increase internal value quite a lot over time
304 2011-08-16 08:31:34 <_Matthew_> but in this particular situation, the potential benefits to the Bitcoin economy are too high to just call them 'silly' and walk away
305 2011-08-16 08:31:40 <_Matthew_> It's downright irresponsible to act that way
306 2011-08-16 08:31:57 <DiabloD3> well, the cryptography system works EXTREMELY well
307 2011-08-16 08:31:58 <Graet> well they need educating
308 2011-08-16 08:31:59 <_Matthew_> If a multimillion dollar company wants to use Bitcoin, shouldn't everyone be pitching it to explain/help?
309 2011-08-16 08:32:09 <DiabloD3> yes
310 2011-08-16 08:32:14 <Graet> that depends
311 2011-08-16 08:32:19 <DiabloD3> but a multimillion dollar company has to also realize they would be a tiny fraction of the market
312 2011-08-16 08:32:19 <_Matthew_> Yes, but since I'm the one they contacted, I'm trying to get the education. I'd GLADLY hand them over to someone else who wants to explain
313 2011-08-16 08:32:25 <DiabloD3> bigger in btc land than the real world, but still small.
314 2011-08-16 08:32:33 <_Matthew_> But as I can see, the general attitude is somewhat of a 'they don't understand, fuck em'
315 2011-08-16 08:32:34 <Graet> they want a private blockchain - how does that help btc?
316 2011-08-16 08:32:37 <_Matthew_> Unless I'm reading it wrong.
317 2011-08-16 08:32:47 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: well, trying to subvert btc is not a good idea
318 2011-08-16 08:32:50 <DiabloD3> which is what they're trying
319 2011-08-16 08:32:52 <_Matthew_> that's just it-- I'm not sure if a private block chain is necessary
320 2011-08-16 08:33:04 <_Matthew_> That's just what THEY are requesting
321 2011-08-16 08:33:16 <DiabloD3> the most valuable thing btc currently has is the block chain
322 2011-08-16 08:33:27 <_Matthew_> I just need some good arguments and solutions for what they want to benefit us all equally
323 2011-08-16 08:33:29 <DiabloD3> even if I store things that are not financial transactions, it is still very valuable
324 2011-08-16 08:33:32 <Graet> how much are they prepared to spend to change all thier internal systems and employ someone to oversee thier pools and miners?/
325 2011-08-16 08:33:41 <_Matthew_> dumb amounts of money
326 2011-08-16 08:34:11 <_Matthew_> Me and 4 others spent a few days on and off writing up a simple overview/proposal
327 2011-08-16 08:34:16 <Graet> tell them to email graet@ozco.in - i'll drain them of dumb amounts of money and get it setup then
328 2011-08-16 08:34:20 <_Matthew_> They accepted it, but then you guys told us it was ridiculous
329 2011-08-16 08:34:21 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: if they're worried about spiking market prices, they could be buying stuff for the next year
330 2011-08-16 08:34:32 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: okay like, do you know what you are paying us miners for?
331 2011-08-16 08:34:39 <DiabloD3> you are renting computer time from us.
332 2011-08-16 08:34:47 <Graet> _Matthew_ a proposal based on incorrect/uninformed info is worthless
333 2011-08-16 08:34:50 <_Matthew_> How so?
334 2011-08-16 08:34:52 <DiabloD3> its no different than, say, going to amz and getting ec2 instances.
335 2011-08-16 08:34:59 <_Matthew_> If you stop generating coins does bitcoin die?
336 2011-08-16 08:35:05 <DiabloD3> yes.
337 2011-08-16 08:35:06 <DiabloD3> basically.
338 2011-08-16 08:35:13 <DiabloD3> if we stop maintaining the chain, bitcoin is dead.
339 2011-08-16 08:35:24 <DiabloD3> it takes a LOT of computation time to maintain the chain
340 2011-08-16 08:35:29 <DiabloD3> it is not cheap
341 2011-08-16 08:35:30 <_Matthew_> Can't it be maintained by transactions alone?
342 2011-08-16 08:35:38 <D0han> no, if you stop generating coins bitcoin still lives
343 2011-08-16 08:35:39 <mtrlt> transactions are in the block chain.
344 2011-08-16 08:35:40 <_Matthew_> I thought it was a dead pile of data
345 2011-08-16 08:35:47 <D0han> when you stop generating blocks, then it dies
346 2011-08-16 08:35:48 <DiabloD3> bitcoin mining, even when it stops producing coins, still needs to exist
347 2011-08-16 08:35:49 <mtrlt> the block chain contains all transactions
348 2011-08-16 08:35:56 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: mining produces new blocks
349 2011-08-16 08:35:57 <_Matthew_> o_O
350 2011-08-16 08:36:01 <_Matthew_> Ah
351 2011-08-16 08:36:02 <DiabloD3> with no new blocks, there are no new transactions
352 2011-08-16 08:36:05 <_Matthew_> There is just no REWARD for them, right?
353 2011-08-16 08:36:08 <DiabloD3> the production of btc is a side effect
354 2011-08-16 08:36:14 <_Matthew_> Later on I mean
355 2011-08-16 08:36:19 <DiabloD3> later on its fees only.
356 2011-08-16 08:36:21 <_Matthew_> well wtf
357 2011-08-16 08:36:25 <DiabloD3> right now its raw token production, aka btc
358 2011-08-16 08:36:26 <_Matthew_> What a shitty concept.
359 2011-08-16 08:36:27 <_Matthew_> lol
360 2011-08-16 08:36:39 <DiabloD3> not quite, what do you think secures the chain via proof of work?
361 2011-08-16 08:36:46 <DiabloD3> proof of a LOT of work.
362 2011-08-16 08:36:51 <DiabloD3> the more the better.
363 2011-08-16 08:36:53 <_Matthew_> I thought it was like signatures
364 2011-08-16 08:37:02 <DiabloD3> it is a signature of sorts
365 2011-08-16 08:37:11 <_Matthew_> I see though
366 2011-08-16 08:37:13 <DiabloD3> the proof of work is a cryptographic problem
367 2011-08-16 08:37:23 <DiabloD3> very very very hard to create, very very very easy to prove.
368 2011-08-16 08:37:27 <_Matthew_> I really do. I get how wrong I was about it originally. It makes sense with every sentence spoken here, really.
369 2011-08-16 08:37:45 <_Matthew_> I had assumed it was all crypto magic
370 2011-08-16 08:37:47 <DiabloD3> so, buying btc on the market is NOT just forex.
371 2011-08-16 08:37:54 <_Matthew_> I hadn't realized it was a dumb brute force effort.
372 2011-08-16 08:37:55 <DiabloD3> its paying us for our services at market prices.
373 2011-08-16 08:37:59 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: yeah
374 2011-08-16 08:38:06 <DiabloD3> its so dumb that we drug gpus into the mix
375 2011-08-16 08:38:13 <DiabloD3> just to prevent any sort of attack on the chain
376 2011-08-16 08:38:22 <_Matthew_> I see
377 2011-08-16 08:38:29 <_Matthew_> So basically if you guys ever stop mining,
378 2011-08-16 08:38:33 <_Matthew_> you're just making it easier to hack?
379 2011-08-16 08:38:37 <_Matthew_> Fuck.
380 2011-08-16 08:38:51 <DiabloD3> yes, but there are millions of miners
381 2011-08-16 08:38:51 <_Matthew_> So Bitcoin in itself a kind of an eternal energy water.
382 2011-08-16 08:38:54 <_Matthew_> waster*
383 2011-08-16 08:39:13 <_Matthew_> I hadn't realized this before. I thought people were only mining to get coins.
384 2011-08-16 08:39:23 <_Matthew_> I didn't know you actually HAD to keep up the mining even aftrer the rewards stopped.
385 2011-08-16 08:39:24 <DiabloD3> people are mining to improve the integrity of the network
386 2011-08-16 08:39:30 <_Matthew_> I thought tranasctions alone would keep the network alive.
387 2011-08-16 08:39:38 <DiabloD3> well, eventually, tx alone will
388 2011-08-16 08:39:44 <_Matthew_> because of fees?
389 2011-08-16 08:39:44 <mtrlt> well no
390 2011-08-16 08:39:48 <DiabloD3> after btc creation stops, fees will be enough
391 2011-08-16 08:39:50 <mtrlt> you will have to mine.
392 2011-08-16 08:40:03 <DiabloD3> but BTC value may exceed 100 usd at that point
393 2011-08-16 08:40:17 <_Matthew_> Who is going to spend the same amount of money they do now for small profits just to keep Bitcoin alive?
394 2011-08-16 08:40:23 <gjs278> me
395 2011-08-16 08:40:24 <DiabloD3> I will.
396 2011-08-16 08:40:26 <_Matthew_> It seems like an eternal pit
397 2011-08-16 08:40:32 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: it costs me electricity.
398 2011-08-16 08:40:40 <mtrlt> that's what the difficulty is for
399 2011-08-16 08:40:42 <_Matthew_> I mean, I understand it perfectly right up until the point there are no rewards
400 2011-08-16 08:40:45 <mtrlt> if it's unprofitable, diff will go down
401 2011-08-16 08:40:51 <mtrlt> until it is profitable again
402 2011-08-16 08:40:58 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: okay, look at the banking industry
403 2011-08-16 08:40:58 <_Matthew_> Then people willstill have 100 GPU rigs mining for---what?
404 2011-08-16 08:41:11 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: their commercial fees are often sub-percent.
405 2011-08-16 08:41:20 <DiabloD3> yet they are the largest companies in the US.
406 2011-08-16 08:41:24 <DiabloD3> and VERY profitable.
407 2011-08-16 08:41:28 <_Matthew_> True.
408 2011-08-16 08:41:44 <_Matthew_> Okay I realize that services and transactions in combination with fees will keep the wheels turning,
409 2011-08-16 08:41:49 <DiabloD3> there are more people mining than work for, say, citigroup worlwide.
410 2011-08-16 08:41:53 <_Matthew_> but now I am confused by that comment about "people will still need to mine"
411 2011-08-16 08:42:01 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: mining produces new blocks
412 2011-08-16 08:42:08 <DiabloD3> without new blocks, there are no new transactions.
413 2011-08-16 08:42:11 <_Matthew_> Who in their right mind is going to spend the same amount of investment on electricity that they do now, for a 100% LOSS later?
414 2011-08-16 08:42:27 <DiabloD3> depends how you define 100% loss
415 2011-08-16 08:42:32 <_Matthew_> Omg
416 2011-08-16 08:42:33 <DiabloD3> hardware is increasing in efficiency
417 2011-08-16 08:42:47 <_Matthew_> You're saying you'd spend $200 a month on an electric bill just to keep 'the chain safe
418 2011-08-16 08:42:48 <_Matthew_> ?
419 2011-08-16 08:42:55 <_Matthew_> No BTC rewards?
420 2011-08-16 08:43:02 <kinlo> soon there will be dedicated sha512 chips :p
421 2011-08-16 08:43:07 <_Matthew_> I'm 100% behind bitcoin, I love it.
422 2011-08-16 08:43:08 <DiabloD3> my computer doesnt use $200 a month on electricity.
423 2011-08-16 08:43:11 <_Matthew_> But even I know where to draw a line.
424 2011-08-16 08:43:15 <mtrlt> _Matthew_: miners will mine for transaction fees
425 2011-08-16 08:43:19 <mtrlt> what part of that did you not ge
426 2011-08-16 08:43:20 <mtrlt> t
427 2011-08-16 08:43:23 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: I pay maybe $10-15 a month to mine.
428 2011-08-16 08:43:25 <_Matthew_> The transaction fee part.
429 2011-08-16 08:43:38 <mtrlt> when you send btc, sometimes the client asks you to add a transaction fee
430 2011-08-16 08:43:40 <_Matthew_> Transaction fee is what is added to a transaction when I send BTC to you, right?
431 2011-08-16 08:43:44 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: eventually miners will turn their machines on and off in response to profitability
432 2011-08-16 08:43:49 <_Matthew_> Ah
433 2011-08-16 08:43:50 <mtrlt> the fee goes to the first miner that mines a block with your transaction included
434 2011-08-16 08:43:54 <_Matthew_> Now it makes sense again.
435 2011-08-16 08:44:05 <_Matthew_> So when I send BTc and it asks for a transaction fee,
436 2011-08-16 08:44:09 <_Matthew_> that fee is being added to the block?
437 2011-08-16 08:44:14 <_Matthew_> as a reward?
438 2011-08-16 08:44:18 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: we ONLY need to keep difficulty high enough to keep out attackers
439 2011-08-16 08:44:19 <mtrlt> the fee goes to the first miner that mines a block with your transaction included
440 2011-08-16 08:44:21 <mtrlt> as i already said
441 2011-08-16 08:44:28 <_Matthew_> Genius! My faith in Bitcoin is restored.
442 2011-08-16 08:44:32 <_Matthew_> lol
443 2011-08-16 08:44:37 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: we're like the third largest supercluster in the world
444 2011-08-16 08:44:58 <DiabloD3> there are no single "computers" (say, any single member of the top500) that come close.
445 2011-08-16 08:45:09 <DiabloD3> to attack bitcoin now is going to be extremely difficult.
446 2011-08-16 08:45:12 <_Matthew_> Now that you guys have helped wipe the mud from my eyes, I reiterate the original proposal
447 2011-08-16 08:45:15 <kinlo> kinda scares me, that a governement can still just boot up their supercluster and deliver a serious blow to bitcoin
448 2011-08-16 08:45:25 <DiabloD3> kinlo: but thats the thing, they cant
449 2011-08-16 08:45:26 <_Matthew_> There is a company that wants to use Bitcoin for internal trading, more of a pointer/share of REAL assets
450 2011-08-16 08:45:38 <_Matthew_> They don't want to send actual dollar bills around and back and forth overseas
451 2011-08-16 08:45:42 <kinlo> DiabloD3: you said we are the third larges supercluster
452 2011-08-16 08:45:42 <_Matthew_> Probably due to taxation and suchl
453 2011-08-16 08:45:43 <gjs278> the govt is too incompetent to setup a cluster large enough to attack bitcoins
454 2011-08-16 08:45:53 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: except btc is not valid as a tax haven.
455 2011-08-16 08:45:54 <mtrlt> the govt is too incompetent to even know what bitcoin is
456 2011-08-16 08:45:56 <kinlo> DiabloD3: so you baiscally say there are 2 larger clusters that can be used for that
457 2011-08-16 08:46:06 <DiabloD3> kinlo: yes, but they run specific software.
458 2011-08-16 08:46:08 <kinlo> DiabloD3: I asume that they are in goverment hands those superclusters
459 2011-08-16 08:46:09 <DiabloD3> one is seti@home
460 2011-08-16 08:46:11 <DiabloD3> I forget what the other is.
461 2011-08-16 08:46:19 <DiabloD3> thats who our competition is.
462 2011-08-16 08:46:25 <DiabloD3> other clusters like us.
463 2011-08-16 08:46:26 <_Matthew_> BOINC projects?
464 2011-08-16 08:46:38 <kinlo> DiabloD3: it's not because they run a specific piece of software that they cannot be reassigned to btc's
465 2011-08-16 08:46:41 <_Matthew_> The largest is Seti
466 2011-08-16 08:46:51 <DiabloD3> we're doing 14 thash/sec
467 2011-08-16 08:47:10 <_Matthew_> They're measured in terraflops though. Seti is not comparable.
468 2011-08-16 08:47:13 <DiabloD3> 1 mhash ~= 1gbsec, so thats like 14 eb/sec.
469 2011-08-16 08:47:18 <_Matthew_> They do floating point.
470 2011-08-16 08:47:46 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: watts.
471 2011-08-16 08:47:47 <_Matthew_> If you can figure out a way to explain Seti@home in relation to Bitcoin, you can get Bitcoin into the Guiness book of world records.
472 2011-08-16 08:48:06 <_Matthew_> Right now the only thing standing between us and that is that Seti holds the current world record because it can be measured in Terraflops, and Bitcoin can't.
473 2011-08-16 08:48:20 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: btw, the way you compare stuff like that
474 2011-08-16 08:48:24 <DiabloD3> is you take a very common cpu
475 2011-08-16 08:48:30 <DiabloD3> see what it does with each
476 2011-08-16 08:48:42 <DiabloD3> and convert numbers back and forth
477 2011-08-16 08:48:54 <DiabloD3> we really are third.
478 2011-08-16 08:49:20 <DiabloD3> like, you could measure things in 3ghz P4 equivalency
479 2011-08-16 08:49:52 <DiabloD3> even with two apps that are both floating point, one may just work better than the other
480 2011-08-16 08:49:54 <_Matthew_> If I'm not bothering anybody, I want to ask some straight questions and if youguys can give me good one liners in response, I can either shut this company up and keep them from wasting their time with bitcoin, or I can make them boost our economy into the $100USD = 1BTC range
481 2011-08-16 08:49:56 <DiabloD3> you need a real world common benchmark
482 2011-08-16 08:50:18 <_Matthew_> Which I'm sure we'd all appreciate.
483 2011-08-16 08:50:31 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: ask questions.
484 2011-08-16 08:50:42 <kinlo> surely someone will be able to answer
485 2011-08-16 08:50:57 <_Matthew_> Why would setting up a separate block chain be less secure?
486 2011-08-16 08:51:10 <gjs278> it has less hash power, a lower difficulty, and can be taken over easier
487 2011-08-16 08:51:19 <_Matthew_> (Hint: It's obvious to me now too but I can't explain it well enough)
488 2011-08-16 08:51:45 <kinlo> to take over a chain, you must have the same amount of computing power as has been used to create it in the first place
489 2011-08-16 08:51:53 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: bitcoin's only flaw is someone with more computation power than everyone else
490 2011-08-16 08:51:58 <kinlo> small chains are therefore easily taken over
491 2011-08-16 08:52:07 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: small chains are VERY easy to hijack with trivial amounts of cpu time
492 2011-08-16 08:52:08 <kinlo> the main bitcoin chain is extreamly difficult
493 2011-08-16 08:52:24 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: this is why people are looking into storing non-transactions in the chain
494 2011-08-16 08:52:37 <DiabloD3> just for the protection
495 2011-08-16 08:53:52 <_Matthew_> Hold on, I'm making notes of everything you guys say
496 2011-08-16 08:56:41 <_Matthew_> Alright
497 2011-08-16 08:56:56 <_Matthew_> "I don't see a problem with the private network solution as there would be tens of thousands of computers and thus transactions involved from the beginning.  The companies we are talking about are quite large."
498 2011-08-16 08:56:59 <_Matthew_> This is something he said
499 2011-08-16 08:57:18 <_Matthew_> And this is where I see now that you guys are right in thinking he misunderstands Bitcoin
500 2011-08-16 08:57:34 <_Matthew_> How would I respond to this?
501 2011-08-16 08:57:41 <DiabloD3> what, only cpus?
502 2011-08-16 08:58:01 <_Matthew_> DiabloD3: He is a businessman, completely new to Bitcoin
503 2011-08-16 08:58:07 <DiabloD3> well if its only cpus, eh
504 2011-08-16 08:58:16 <DiabloD3> lets say 4 mhash per machine
505 2011-08-16 08:58:31 <_Matthew_> (Keep in mind, our biggest agenda would not be to tell him to stfu, but to provide a solution he can understand and re-explain to his higher-ups in order to convince them to buy into our main block-chain and thus improve our market)
506 2011-08-16 08:58:41 <DiabloD3> I can replace 1000 of those machines with, say, one box.
507 2011-08-16 08:58:43 <DiabloD3> give or take
508 2011-08-16 08:58:56 <_Matthew_> I know what you mean.
509 2011-08-16 08:59:01 <DiabloD3> two dozen loaded ultiminers could crush his network
510 2011-08-16 08:59:05 <DiabloD3> without even trying
511 2011-08-16 08:59:22 <_Matthew_> But he is under the impression he could keep it on a VPN
512 2011-08-16 08:59:27 <_Matthew_> and thus keep it internal
513 2011-08-16 08:59:30 <DiabloD3> sure, if he has no employees.
514 2011-08-16 08:59:33 <_Matthew_> I can already see his point of few
515 2011-08-16 08:59:36 <_Matthew_> view*
516 2011-08-16 08:59:48 <_Matthew_> Sorry, I have ADHD and often type phonetically.
517 2011-08-16 08:59:50 <DiabloD3> his largest threat are greedy assholes who work for him
518 2011-08-16 09:00:00 <vegard> graingert: oh, I wasn't suggesting that every transaction gives a reward
519 2011-08-16 09:00:03 <DiabloD3> which is great since we're the same way
520 2011-08-16 09:00:06 <_Matthew_> "In fact, the internal BTC would dwarf the external BTC market immediately."
521 2011-08-16 09:00:12 <_Matthew_> "My understanding is that there are approximately BTC 6-7 million today. Is that correct?"
522 2011-08-16 09:00:17 <_Matthew_> "At an exchange rate of 10 USD to the BTC using yesterday's open on BTC on the Mtgox exchange, that would be approximately USD 70 million worth of BTC on the market."
523 2011-08-16 09:00:28 <_Matthew_> "I would expect that the internal BTC market we are suggesting would be at least ten times this at the start."
524 2011-08-16 09:00:38 <DiabloD3> current block count is 141178, times 50
525 2011-08-16 09:00:53 <DiabloD3> so 7 million
526 2011-08-16 09:01:14 <_Matthew_> Is he right though?
527 2011-08-16 09:01:25 <_Matthew_> If they ahve that many transactions going, is Bitcoin better internally or externally for him?>
528 2011-08-16 09:01:28 <DiabloD3> well, does he WANT to buy $70m?
529 2011-08-16 09:01:34 <DiabloD3> like, at once?
530 2011-08-16 09:01:37 <_Matthew_> Yea
531 2011-08-16 09:01:39 <_Matthew_> And then sell them
532 2011-08-16 09:01:42 <DiabloD3> I am his new best friend.
533 2011-08-16 09:01:49 <_Matthew_> They don't want BTC
534 2011-08-16 09:01:55 <_Matthew_> They want it is a virtual exchange vehicle