1 2011-08-30 00:41:32 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
  2 2011-08-30 00:41:35 <gribble> Current Blocks: 143118 | Current Difficulty: 1805700.8361937 | Next Difficulty At Block: 143135 | Next Difficulty In: 17 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 hours, 59 minutes, and 38 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1778013.09632849
  3 2011-08-30 00:50:13 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r87ac3a006ffd cgminer/main.c: Provide much more smoothing of the short term rates.
  4 2011-08-30 00:50:14 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * re95006c216ae cgminer/README: Change recommendation to intensity 9 for dedicated miners.
  5 2011-08-30 01:09:47 <andyroo> ;;ticker
  6 2011-08-30 01:09:47 <gribble> Best bid: 8.7921, Best ask: 8.86988, Bid-ask spread: 0.07778, Last trade: 8.87089, 24 hour volume: 21828, 24 hour low: 8.65, 24 hour high: 9.27027
  7 2011-08-30 01:15:20 <andyroo> anyone know where i can find a AES vfs for sqlite
  8 2011-08-30 01:15:44 <andyroo> that is, an abstraction layer so i can save/load sqlite dbs that are aes encrypted
  9 2011-08-30 01:15:54 <Diablo-D3> andyroo: just use your OS's functionality for it
 10 2011-08-30 01:16:31 <andyroo> that would involve decryting the db and opening in the clear no?
 11 2011-08-30 01:16:45 <andyroo> and potentially cleartext would be saved to disk at some point
 12 2011-08-30 01:16:45 <Diablo-D3> not if its coded right.
 13 2011-08-30 01:17:04 <Diablo-D3> you do realize you can have encrypted disk partitions in most if not all modern OS, right?
 14 2011-08-30 01:17:11 <andyroo> yes,
 15 2011-08-30 01:17:24 <andyroo> but i'm not creating a disk partition for a sqlite db!
 16 2011-08-30 01:17:33 <Diablo-D3> you dont have to always
 17 2011-08-30 01:17:38 <Diablo-D3> you can loopback mount a disk image.
 18 2011-08-30 01:17:55 <andyroo> yeah, but i'd prefer to be as cross-platform as possible
 19 2011-08-30 01:18:05 <Diablo-D3> thats not going to happen then
 20 2011-08-30 01:18:48 <andyroo> well, here is an example of what i want: http://sqlcipher.net/
 21 2011-08-30 01:18:55 <andyroo> but that's under a funny license
 22 2011-08-30 01:19:45 <asher^> truecrypt?
 23 2011-08-30 01:20:11 <andyroo> i'd like a C library, optimally
 24 2011-08-30 01:20:33 <andyroo> i'm hoping to implement a wallet-storage library that i can write language bindings for
 25 2011-08-30 02:06:55 <andyroo> ;;ticker
 26 2011-08-30 02:06:55 <gribble> Best bid: 8.8502, Best ask: 8.87089, Bid-ask spread: 0.02069, Last trade: 8.85, 24 hour volume: 21542, 24 hour low: 8.65, 24 hour high: 9.23
 27 2011-08-30 02:34:45 <andyroo> ;;ticker
 28 2011-08-30 02:34:45 <gribble> Best bid: 8.87031, Best ask: 8.87089, Bid-ask spread: 0.000579999999999, Last trade: 8.87, 24 hour volume: 20800, 24 hour low: 8.65, 24 hour high: 9.15031
 29 2011-08-30 02:49:50 <coblee> ;;bc,stats
 30 2011-08-30 02:49:53 <gribble> Current Blocks: 143134 | Current Difficulty: 1805700.8361937 | Next Difficulty At Block: 143135 | Next Difficulty In: 1 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 10 minutes and 35 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1778110.86045120
 31 2011-08-30 02:50:05 <coblee> ooh!
 32 2011-08-30 02:50:16 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
 33 2011-08-30 02:50:19 <gribble> Current Blocks: 143134 | Current Difficulty: 1805700.8361937 | Next Difficulty At Block: 143135 | Next Difficulty In: 1 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 10 minutes and 35 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1778110.86045120
 34 2011-08-30 02:50:58 <nanotube> almost there!
 35 2011-08-30 02:51:23 <luke-jr> are we there yet?
 36 2011-08-30 02:51:38 <luke-jr> is the new difficulty sufficiently final yet?
 37 2011-08-30 02:54:49 <imsaguy> psh
 38 2011-08-30 02:54:56 <imsaguy> script it ftw
 39 2011-08-30 02:55:02 <nanotube> ++
 40 2011-08-30 02:55:08 <luke-jr> not that simple
 41 2011-08-30 02:55:15 <luke-jr> I have to make an educated guess :P
 42 2011-08-30 02:55:29 <luke-jr> and it only happens once every 2 weeks
 43 2011-08-30 02:55:30 <imsaguy> anything you're guessing at can be scripted
 44 2011-08-30 03:02:19 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
 45 2011-08-30 03:02:22 <gribble> Current Blocks: 143135 | Current Difficulty: 1805700.8361937 | Next Difficulty At Block: 143135 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 19 hours, 36 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1777774.48200146
 46 2011-08-30 03:03:32 <coblee> looks like the stats are confused around difficulty change :p
 47 2011-08-30 03:03:39 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
 48 2011-08-30 03:03:42 <gribble> Current Blocks: 143135 | Current Difficulty: 1805700.8361937 | Next Difficulty At Block: 143135 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1777774.48200146
 49 2011-08-30 03:03:59 <andyroo> it might only update every hour or something
 50 2011-08-30 03:04:29 <coblee> no, i mean next difficulty in 0 blocks, but it will take 2 weeks
 51 2011-08-30 03:05:03 <coblee> we already found block 143135. so difficulty should already be adjusted
 52 2011-08-30 03:06:10 <nanotube> coblee: yea yea, data is pulled from blockexplorer... so complain to bbe :)
 53 2011-08-30 03:06:23 <coblee> not complaining :)
 54 2011-08-30 03:06:32 <coblee> no real need to fix it either
 55 2011-08-30 03:06:51 <coblee> just found it funny that lots of places have problems during difficulty changes
 56 2011-08-30 03:08:58 <nanotube> heh
 57 2011-08-30 03:13:44 <bitfoo> ;;bc,stats
 58 2011-08-30 03:13:46 <gribble> Current Blocks: 143135 | Current Difficulty: 1805700.8361937 | Next Difficulty At Block: 143135 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1777774.48200146
 59 2011-08-30 03:16:05 <iuknown> i've been checking out the bitcoin code.  i've been impressed
 60 2011-08-30 03:19:13 <cjdelisle> I'm a c++ noob but I look at it and go o_O
 61 2011-08-30 03:19:48 <toffoo> what is impressive about it?
 62 2011-08-30 03:22:03 <andyroo> it's not bad, a little disorganized, IMHO
 63 2011-08-30 03:22:16 <andyroo> some neat crypto, though that's not really an attribute of the code
 64 2011-08-30 03:22:30 <iuknown> its just concise and does everything it needs to do
 65 2011-08-30 03:22:42 <iuknown> not difficult to understand
 66 2011-08-30 03:22:55 <iuknown> i'm learning a ton from reading it
 67 2011-08-30 03:24:00 <andyroo> it should have a stronger separation between the core and UI
 68 2011-08-30 03:24:23 <andyroo> so that people could, for example, write a web interface, or phone app, or something
 69 2011-08-30 03:24:34 <andyroo> and only have to throw out the GUI stuff
 70 2011-08-30 03:25:15 <iuknown> i am working on that right now actually
 71 2011-08-30 03:25:29 <andyroo> cool, good luck!
 72 2011-08-30 03:25:32 <iuknown> i agree with you
 73 2011-08-30 03:25:50 <andyroo> i would love to be able to hack a gtk UI onto it so that I wouldn't need the new wx lib
 74 2011-08-30 03:26:13 <iuknown> for the server?
 75 2011-08-30 03:26:14 <bitfoo> people use the rpc interface to write custom clients
 76 2011-08-30 03:26:14 <iuknown> or the client?
 77 2011-08-30 03:26:32 <iuknown> i think there might already be some java client libs for it
 78 2011-08-30 03:26:45 <andyroo> yes, but the btc client does more than rpc
 79 2011-08-30 03:26:51 <andyroo> it stores the block chain, wallet, etc
 80 2011-08-30 03:27:14 <bitfoo> ok, so you want something like a "libbitcoin"?
 81 2011-08-30 03:27:21 <andyroo> yes, exactly
 82 2011-08-30 03:27:30 <iuknown> i think i saw one of those earlier
 83 2011-08-30 03:27:37 <andyroo> preferable written in C, since that's easiest to do other language bindings
 84 2011-08-30 03:27:46 <andyroo> i have seen the "libbitcoin" on github, it's no good
 85 2011-08-30 03:27:47 <iuknown> https://gitorious.org/libbitcoin/libbitcoin
 86 2011-08-30 03:27:54 <iuknown> ah
 87 2011-08-30 03:28:03 <iuknown> i'm writing it in c#
 88 2011-08-30 03:28:10 <andyroo> it's C++, doesn't have a stable API
 89 2011-08-30 03:28:12 <iuknown> such an easy language to understand
 90 2011-08-30 03:28:17 <andyroo> has promise, but still a lot of work
 91 2011-08-30 03:28:24 <andyroo> i agree, i love c#
 92 2011-08-30 03:28:38 <andyroo> a lot of people don't, especially in the linux world
 93 2011-08-30 03:28:47 <iuknown> i wonder why
 94 2011-08-30 03:28:49 <cjdelisle> thing about c# is the same thing as java. If you don't have microsoft's stuff installed you can't use it
 95 2011-08-30 03:28:56 <iuknown> mono
 96 2011-08-30 03:29:02 <cjdelisle> is a joke
 97 2011-08-30 03:29:03 <andyroo> i have mono and gtk#
 98 2011-08-30 03:29:08 <iuknown> joke?
 99 2011-08-30 03:29:09 <andyroo> haha, look at banshee
100 2011-08-30 03:29:12 <andyroo> hardly a joke
101 2011-08-30 03:29:29 <andyroo> it's very impressive and was developed ridiculously fast
102 2011-08-30 03:29:42 <iuknown> its open source
103 2011-08-30 03:29:50 <cjdelisle> also Sun really already has cornered the market on interpreted languages which pretend to be native.
104 2011-08-30 03:29:58 <iuknown> which is essential when doing this kind of stuff imo
105 2011-08-30 03:30:15 <andyroo> we don't need pretend nativity for the most part
106 2011-08-30 03:30:21 <andyroo> i've seen good apps written in python
107 2011-08-30 03:30:45 <iuknown> what is pretend nativity?
108 2011-08-30 03:30:48 <cjdelisle> same deal. John user ain't gonna install python nomatter how much you wish he would.
109 2011-08-30 03:31:16 <iuknown> i'd like to see the .net runtime on all devices.  i think its the best thing i've seen yet
110 2011-08-30 03:31:29 <andyroo> "pretend nativity" means bytecode and a CLR, that's all
111 2011-08-30 03:31:30 <iuknown> if there is better, i want to know about it
112 2011-08-30 03:31:36 <andyroo> whereas python needs an interpreter
113 2011-08-30 03:32:02 <iuknown> bytecode is transformed into machine language though, either at compile time or at runtime by the jit
114 2011-08-30 03:32:13 <iuknown> so it seems just as fast in that way
115 2011-08-30 03:32:20 <andyroo> nowadays, yes
116 2011-08-30 03:32:30 <andyroo> it took a long time to get to that kind of performance
117 2011-08-30 03:32:33 <cjdelisle> that explains why java is so fast
118 2011-08-30 03:32:39 <andyroo> haha
119 2011-08-30 03:32:40 <cjdelisle> erm I mean
120 2011-08-30 03:32:44 <cjdelisle> slow
121 2011-08-30 03:33:15 <iuknown> i imagine the slowness has more to do with the memory allocator than anything else
122 2011-08-30 03:33:23 <cjdelisle> no actually java is slow because it's safe
123 2011-08-30 03:33:50 <copumpkin> safe?
124 2011-08-30 03:33:52 <iuknown> you mean doing more memcopy than necessary due to lack of pointers?
125 2011-08-30 03:33:59 <andyroo> microsoft IL is safer than java and much faster
126 2011-08-30 03:33:59 <cjdelisle> I can do stuff in C that the java vm would never dream of letting me do and that stuff can make it fast as hell.
127 2011-08-30 03:34:30 <iuknown> ya i've been rewriting some of the bitcoin in c# and amazed how much more memcpy is necessary
128 2011-08-30 03:34:43 <iuknown> stuff like converting between a byte[] and a struct
129 2011-08-30 03:34:55 <andyroo> it's not actually necessary, but it takes time to learn the tricks
130 2011-08-30 03:35:05 <andyroo> i've forgotten them all tho ;P too much time in C
131 2011-08-30 03:35:29 <iuknown> i just love c# so much these days.  visual studio is so nice too
132 2011-08-30 03:35:54 <andyroo> um..
133 2011-08-30 03:36:03 <cjdelisle> creating a buffer of and treating it as an array of structures, java won't let you do that because of dangling pointer headaches and all other kinds of problems but that kind of thing can make it really fast.
134 2011-08-30 03:36:56 <andyroo> sounds like premature optimization to me
135 2011-08-30 03:37:10 <iuknown> i think all managed buffers are just handles to memory that can change behind the scenes at any point by freezing the thread and moving stuff in the background, so that restricts the kind of operations you can do
136 2011-08-30 03:37:11 <andyroo> or a bad data structure
137 2011-08-30 03:37:37 <cjdelisle> it's premature until you realize your app is fucking slow
138 2011-08-30 03:37:42 <cjdelisle> then it's too late
139 2011-08-30 03:37:49 <andyroo> no, then it's time to profile
140 2011-08-30 03:38:02 <cjdelisle> and pick a better language and rewrite
141 2011-08-30 03:38:13 <andyroo> well, if you started with java, yes
142 2011-08-30 03:38:39 <andyroo> but that's a mistake you only make once
143 2011-08-30 03:38:43 <cjdelisle> c# has all of the same safety features
144 2011-08-30 03:39:02 <cjdelisle> actually I was reading that it's slower than java which is pretty funny
145 2011-08-30 03:39:42 <andyroo> well, if i wanted safety, i would probably just use lisp
146 2011-08-30 03:39:53 <cjdelisle> pointer dereferencing takes time and typesafe languages do it constantly
147 2011-08-30 03:39:59 <andyroo> then i wouldn't be missing language features every other line
148 2011-08-30 03:40:22 <andyroo> pointer dereferencing is one opcode
149 2011-08-30 03:40:30 <cjdelisle> basicly all it's doing is waiting on memory lookups
150 2011-08-30 03:40:45 <cjdelisle> yea and one memory lookup takes ~500 cpu cycles
151 2011-08-30 03:41:01 <andyroo> depends on what level of cache you're in
152 2011-08-30 03:41:14 <andyroo> if everything is in L1 it's more like 10 cycles
153 2011-08-30 03:41:27 <cjdelisle> you're not in the cache because all those pointers take space too and so your app takes 800MB of ram
154 2011-08-30 03:41:47 <andyroo> well, that can be a pain to manage
155 2011-08-30 03:41:50 <andyroo> but it is possible
156 2011-08-30 03:41:54 <cjdelisle> slow
157 2011-08-30 03:42:57 <andyroo> so..in regards to libbitcoin, i was thinking we would store wallets in an aes-encrypted sqlite db
158 2011-08-30 03:43:18 <andyroo> we would need to put a bit of work into save/load, since sqlite doesn't support aes natively
159 2011-08-30 03:45:03 <cjdelisle> I'm not writing any code so take my advice with the salt it deserves but I'd put the wallet in json format and load it to a db temporarily.
160 2011-08-30 03:45:05 <andyroo> @gribble
161 2011-08-30 03:45:29 <andyroo> why store in json? why not just use a db?
162 2011-08-30 03:45:39 <andyroo> that seems like a completely unnecessary translation
163 2011-08-30 03:45:46 <cjdelisle> at least then people won't have to do all kinds of esoteric crap because one stupid bit got flipped in the wallet file.
164 2011-08-30 03:46:02 <andyroo> if it's encrypted, and it should be
165 2011-08-30 03:46:09 <andyroo> they're screwed if a bit flips anyway
166 2011-08-30 03:46:22 <cjdelisle> then you can't code
167 2011-08-30 03:46:43 <cjdelisle> (encrypt the keys individually)
168 2011-08-30 03:46:56 <andyroo> well, i could do that
169 2011-08-30 03:47:01 <cjdelisle> and only the private half of the key
170 2011-08-30 03:47:05 <iuknown> how about just store the wallet as a plain text file
171 2011-08-30 03:47:07 <andyroo> and then base-64 everything to store as ascii
172 2011-08-30 03:47:10 <iuknown> in json format
173 2011-08-30 03:47:17 <iuknown> no need for a database
174 2011-08-30 03:47:20 <cjdelisle> ^
175 2011-08-30 03:47:24 <iuknown> how many keys does a user have?
176 2011-08-30 03:47:35 <andyroo> the default client gives them 100 to start
177 2011-08-30 03:47:49 <andyroo> and then keeps them all as they are generated after every transaction
178 2011-08-30 03:47:51 <iuknown> its like bank accounts.  i don't have that many
179 2011-08-30 03:47:52 <cjdelisle> wallets get huge because noone dares ever throw out a key but that should be fixed
180 2011-08-30 03:48:15 <andyroo> first you say no need for a db, now you're suggesting throwing away data
181 2011-08-30 03:48:17 <iuknown> why generate new keys all the time?
182 2011-08-30 03:48:26 <cjdelisle> privacy
183 2011-08-30 03:48:30 <andyroo> ^
184 2011-08-30 03:48:41 <iuknown> does it really offer any additional privacy?
185 2011-08-30 03:48:45 <cjdelisle> "throwing away data"?
186 2011-08-30 03:48:47 <andyroo> somewhat
187 2011-08-30 03:49:02 <iuknown> seems like there is still a trail of transactions that can be followed
188 2011-08-30 03:49:03 <cjdelisle> You think it's a good idea to just keep every key you ever used?
189 2011-08-30 03:49:07 <andyroo> yes
190 2011-08-30 03:49:09 <cjdelisle> forevah
191 2011-08-30 03:49:18 <andyroo> yes, why not? they're not big
192 2011-08-30 03:49:28 <cjdelisle> I suppose I shouldn't expect any different :/
193 2011-08-30 03:49:33 <iuknown> i guess like a bank account, it becomes 'closed' when the balance is zero
194 2011-08-30 03:49:39 <iuknown> so there's no need to keep those zero-balance keys
195 2011-08-30 03:49:46 <cjdelisle> yea
196 2011-08-30 03:49:47 <andyroo> that's true
197 2011-08-30 03:49:57 <andyroo> but there's also no need to throw them away
198 2011-08-30 03:50:05 <cjdelisle> but people are parinoid that someone might pay a 10 year old key and then you would not have access to it
199 2011-08-30 03:50:14 <iuknown> is that what happens in a trans?  bitcoins get transfered to a new address on each transaction?
200 2011-08-30 03:50:23 <andyroo> that's not paranoia, that's perfectly reasonable
201 2011-08-30 03:50:31 <cjdelisle> k
202 2011-08-30 03:50:39 <cjdelisle> you go write libbitcoin in vbasic
203 2011-08-30 03:50:39 <iuknown> pay a 10 year old key?
204 2011-08-30 03:51:07 <andyroo> why are you being derisive?
205 2011-08-30 03:51:20 <andyroo> i've been programming for fifteen years - i know what i'm talking about
206 2011-08-30 03:51:20 <iuknown> what did you mean by pay a 10 year old key?
207 2011-08-30 03:51:40 <andyroo> bitcoin accounts are public keys
208 2011-08-30 03:51:53 <andyroo> you need the corresponding private key to spend money from them
209 2011-08-30 03:52:02 <andyroo> but only the public key to spend money TO them
210 2011-08-30 03:52:17 <andyroo> so if you lose a private key, any coins sent to that account are lost forever
211 2011-08-30 03:53:42 <iuknown> so that's what cj means then by someone paying a 10 year old account
212 2011-08-30 03:54:01 <iuknown> seems like nothing is going to stop someone from doing that though
213 2011-08-30 03:54:21 <andyroo> no, nothing will
214 2011-08-30 03:54:24 <iuknown> anybody could transfer money to a bogus key and essentially throw that money away
215 2011-08-30 03:54:31 <andyroo> yes, they could
216 2011-08-30 03:54:49 <iuknown> this is some fun stuff
217 2011-08-30 03:54:52 <andyroo> that's probably what happened to a lot of btc in 2008-2009, because people didn't know the value
218 2011-08-30 03:55:05 <iuknown> value?
219 2011-08-30 03:55:22 <iuknown> oh there are coins belonging to people that might be 'dead'
220 2011-08-30 03:55:25 <andyroo> now we have exchanges with fairly high volume
221 2011-08-30 03:55:48 <andyroo> but before then, people would slosh tens of thousands of btc amongst themselves
222 2011-08-30 03:55:52 <andyroo> because it was a neat thing to do
223 2011-08-30 03:56:28 <andyroo> and nobody was willing to trade goods, services or other currency for them
224 2011-08-30 03:57:13 <cacheson> hence the 10,000 BTC pizza
225 2011-08-30 03:57:26 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,mtgox
226 2011-08-30 03:57:27 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":9.15031,"low":8.65,"avg":8.876533799,"vwap":8.897935834,"vol":20271,"last":8.8405,"buy":8.8409,"sell":8.87289}}
227 2011-08-30 03:57:41 <cacheson> guy had trouble finding anyone to actually take the coins for the pizza at first
228 2011-08-30 03:58:04 <iuknown> moving to a new currency isn't an easy thing
229 2011-08-30 03:58:14 <andyroo> one of the regs on #bitcoin, i forget who, offered a 5btc bitbill as a tip
230 2011-08-30 03:58:19 <andyroo> and the waiter wouldn't take it
231 2011-08-30 03:58:31 <andyroo> this was a few weeks ago, when that was ~50 dollars
232 2011-08-30 03:58:41 <luke-jr> I offered a 1 BTC Bitbill as a tip when it was ~$12
233 2011-08-30 03:58:45 <luke-jr> vs $3 cash
234 2011-08-30 03:58:55 <andyroo> right, that's what i'm thinking of
235 2011-08-30 03:59:02 <andyroo> amazing how those numbers increased in my head
236 2011-08-30 03:59:06 <luke-jr> lol
237 2011-08-30 03:59:33 <andyroo> ;;asks 9
238 2011-08-30 03:59:34 <gribble> There are currently 3154.7659 bitcoins offered at or under 9.0 USD, worth 28364.0551057 USD in total.
239 2011-08-30 03:59:49 <andyroo> i wish this sell pressure would go away
240 2011-08-30 04:04:46 <andyroo> so, why can't i talk on #bitcoin right now?
241 2011-08-30 04:04:48 <andyroo> too full?
242 2011-08-30 04:12:38 <dooglus> once I've put a passphrase on my wallet, is there a way to go back to no passphrase, so I can use it again with the official released client?
243 2011-08-30 04:15:42 <andyroo> ;;ticker
244 2011-08-30 04:15:42 <gribble> Best bid: 8.8005, Best ask: 8.86, Bid-ask spread: 0.0595, Last trade: 8.8, 24 hour volume: 20392, 24 hour low: 8.65, 24 hour high: 9.15031
245 2011-08-30 04:24:02 <iuknown> there should be.  decrypting the wallet is in the code
246 2011-08-30 04:33:28 <dooglus> iuknown: thanks.  I've not built the client for a few weeks, but last I looked I couldn't see how to unencrypt it
247 2011-08-30 04:35:07 <iuknown> perhaps you use the 'change wallet passphrase' option
248 2011-08-30 04:35:48 <dooglus> iuknown: I see these rpc commands: walletpassphrase, walletpassphrasechange, walletlock, encryptwallet
249 2011-08-30 04:36:04 <dooglus> iuknown: I tried changing it to '', but it didn't unencrypt the wallet
250 2011-08-30 04:37:03 <dooglus> if (strOldWalletPass.length() < 1 || strNewWalletPass.length() < 1)
251 2011-08-30 04:37:13 <dooglus> the new length can't be zero...
252 2011-08-30 04:37:38 <iuknown> ya looks like it from code too
253 2011-08-30 06:06:02 <electronicmaji> http://tindeck.com/listen/hnek
254 2011-08-30 06:47:21 <lfm> ;;bc,estimate
255 2011-08-30 06:47:22 <gribble> 2573272.13284184
256 2011-08-30 06:47:31 <lfm> ;;bc,spotestimate
257 2011-08-30 06:47:35 <gribble> 1592395.08853
258 2011-08-30 06:48:09 <lfm> ;;bc,diff
259 2011-08-30 06:48:10 <gribble> 1777774.4820015
260 2011-08-30 06:55:59 <TuxBlackEdo> anyone here have jabber?
261 2011-08-30 06:56:54 <lfm> I have it, i never used it. it packaged in the distro I think
262 2011-08-30 08:06:38 <MobiusL> ;;bc,stats
263 2011-08-30 08:06:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 143174 | Current Difficulty: 1777774.4820015 | Next Difficulty At Block: 145151 | Next Difficulty In: 1977 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 17 hours, 23 minutes, and 45 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 2577603.58067034
264 2011-08-30 08:14:08 <erus`> who wants to hear my python joke?
265 2011-08-30 09:42:46 <fabiomiguel> I make php websites. Im accepting BTC
266 2011-08-30 09:56:01 <Meki333> hi man I have a question
267 2011-08-30 09:57:36 <Meki333> I used guiminer v2011-08-24 and I have an error
268 2011-08-30 10:01:11 <Meki333> If I mining on api2.bitcoin.cz then I have conestion error (all ports are opened) and when I mining on slush's pool then I have error 80190190
269 2011-08-30 10:02:55 <_flow_> Has there ever been a discussion about support for discovering peers via zeroconf?
270 2011-08-30 10:07:32 <slush> Meki333: hi. What is error 80190190 ?
271 2011-08-30 10:07:53 <slush> Meki333: You don't need to open any port for pooled mining...
272 2011-08-30 10:08:43 <Meki333> I dont know what is 80190190 error, but guiminre not work...
273 2011-08-30 10:09:02 <Meki333> guiminer*
274 2011-08-30 10:09:13 <slush> can you paste some error message here?
275 2011-08-30 10:11:46 <Meki333> 2011-08-30 14:10:08: Listener for "Default" started 2011-08-30 14:10:08: Listener for "Default": Traceback (most recent call last): 2011-08-30 14:10:08: Listener for "Default": File "poclbm.py", line 47, in <module> 2011-08-30 14:10:16: Listener for "test" shutting down
276 2011-08-30 10:12:19 <Meki333> and the 2 error is:
277 2011-08-30 10:13:32 <Meki333> 2011-08-30 14:10:20: Listener for "test" started 2011-08-30 14:10:21: Listener for "test": bitcoin-miner 0.13  Copyright (c) 2011 Ufasoft  http://ufasoft.com/open/bitcoin 2011-08-30 14:10:21: Listener for "test": Mining for http://api2.bitcoin.cz:8332 2011-08-30 14:10:21: Listener for "test": 2 threads
278 2011-08-30 10:14:01 <slush> This looks like some general miner error, not a network or pool error
279 2011-08-30 10:14:20 <slush> can you try another mining core, not SSE2, for example?
280 2011-08-30 10:14:23 <Meki333> hmm, any help here? :D:D
281 2011-08-30 10:14:53 <Meki333> I am new, I dont know much about this
282 2011-08-30 10:15:36 <slush> what computer do you have? Do you have some GPU?
283 2011-08-30 10:16:02 <Meki333> C2D, but old GPU, it is PC in my work :D
284 2011-08-30 10:16:10 <Meki333> GPU is 7600gt
285 2011-08-30 10:16:43 <slush> hm, so you probably need CPU mining
286 2011-08-30 10:17:03 <slush> well, can you ask on miner forum? This really looks like some lowlevel error
287 2011-08-30 10:17:20 <Meki333> if guiminer use SSE2, then use CPUmining, isnt it?
288 2011-08-30 10:17:26 <slush> yes
289 2011-08-30 10:18:38 <molecular> I'm seeing some weird transactions: http://i.imgur.com/dMYSg.png <- anyone have an idea what these are? 0.01 BTC, like 20 of them
290 2011-08-30 10:19:21 <Meki333> I look on 2011-08-30 14:15:13: Running command: C:downloadminerguiminerminersufasoftitcoin-miner.exe -u username -p pass -o http://api2.bitcoin.cz:8332  and there is not my username and password... I dont need it for mining?
291 2011-08-30 10:19:45 <molecular> these addresses do not show in my address book
292 2011-08-30 10:20:06 <slush> Meki333: Then you need to fill correct username and password somewhere.
293 2011-08-30 10:20:44 <slush> I don't have windows and didn't see guiminer for long time, but must be a configuration tab for "test" listener somewhere
294 2011-08-30 10:22:05 <Meki333> Its my mistake, I dont write username and password on "test", but the error is still there...
295 2011-08-30 10:22:35 <slush> except username and password, the command line for miner looks fine
296 2011-08-30 10:23:05 <slush> so... please ask on forum, I don't know what happen here
297 2011-08-30 10:24:49 <Meki333> ok, thx... BTW do you know some cpuminer on windows?
298 2011-08-30 10:42:05 <fabiomiguel> how to track transations?
299 2011-08-30 10:42:08 <fabiomiguel> with php?
300 2011-08-30 10:42:20 <fabiomiguel> i mean what i should use?
301 2011-08-30 10:43:35 <asher^> more detail...
302 2011-08-30 10:51:12 <JFK911> use linux
303 2011-08-30 10:52:27 <kjj> all of the commands you can use on the command line are also RPC calls that your scripts can use
304 2011-08-30 11:37:59 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r421437c / (doc/run.md lib/peermanager.js man/run.1): Added new value "none" for --connect parameter. (+7 more commits...) - http://git.io/o3Xo2w
305 2011-08-30 11:48:17 <MobiusL> ;;bc,stats
306 2011-08-30 11:48:20 <gribble> Current Blocks: 143199 | Current Difficulty: 1777774.4820015 | Next Difficulty At Block: 145151 | Next Difficulty In: 1952 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 20 hours, 16 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 2257717.44736074
307 2011-08-30 11:58:30 <vegard> ...eh
308 2011-08-30 11:58:37 <vegard> ;;bc,diff
309 2011-08-30 11:58:38 <gribble> 1777774.4820015
310 2011-08-30 11:58:44 <vegard> ;;bc,estimate
311 2011-08-30 11:58:45 <gribble> 2257717.44736074
312 2011-08-30 11:58:52 <vegard> that's quite a jump.
313 2011-08-30 11:59:31 <UukGoblin> vegard, early estimates are always very inaccurate
314 2011-08-30 12:00:10 <vegard> ;;bc,diffchange
315 2011-08-30 12:00:11 <gribble> 26.9968418503 % estimated difficulty change this period
316 2011-08-30 12:00:25 <vegard> but it's not an early estimate, is it? we've had 4 days
317 2011-08-30 12:00:39 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,stats
318 2011-08-30 12:00:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 143199 | Current Difficulty: 1777774.4820015 | Next Difficulty At Block: 145151 | Next Difficulty In: 1952 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 20 hours, 16 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 2257717.44736074
319 2011-08-30 12:00:41 <vegard> hm. more like 3
320 2011-08-30 12:00:53 <vegard> thanks :)
321 2011-08-30 12:01:35 <UukGoblin> we've been on this diff for 64 blocks... that's like 10 hours
322 2011-08-30 12:02:02 <vegard> oh.
323 2011-08-30 12:02:18 <vegard> sorry.
324 2011-08-30 12:03:01 <UukGoblin> yeah the currentdiff is there since 6:15:03 GMT this morning (http://blockexplorer.com/b/143136)
325 2011-08-30 12:03:11 <UukGoblin> argh I mean 5:15:03 GMT
326 2011-08-30 12:06:20 <makomk> I think the estimated time till the next difficulty must be based on the incorrect estimate for the next difficulty...
327 2011-08-30 12:12:00 <UukGoblin> makomk, yes, both are based on the amount of work done since the last difficulty update... and the nature of work is highly random on its own
328 2011-08-30 12:12:29 <UukGoblin> graphs at http://bitcoin.sipa.be/ help you see what's going on there
329 2011-08-30 12:12:53 <UukGoblin> on the total computation speed, the 1-day window estimate you can see is very "jumpy"
330 2011-08-30 12:13:11 <UukGoblin> and there's only really been a green line hop since the last difficulty update
331 2011-08-30 12:13:16 <UukGoblin> so it's way too early to tell
332 2011-08-30 12:15:04 <nanotube> ;;bc,spotestimate
333 2011-08-30 12:15:06 <gribble> 1673943.86925
334 2011-08-30 12:15:15 <nanotube> is based on the 3d average (as per the sipa charts)
335 2011-08-30 12:15:54 <UukGoblin> ah, much better then
336 2011-08-30 12:37:38 <tcatm> gavinandresen: did you get my email about bitcoin.org?
337 2011-08-30 14:00:54 <xelister> FOREVER GOXXED ;_;
338 2011-08-30 14:01:19 <xelister> Bitomat.pl re-Launch Delays [a.k.a they frozen our money for weeks AGAIN] https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20402146-bitomat-pl-re-launch-delays   :{
339 2011-08-30 14:04:25 <BlueMatt> xelister: forever making a big deal out of each tiny misstep mtgox makes
340 2011-08-30 14:05:24 <xelister> BlueMatt:~170,000 USD of customers remains frozen
341 2011-08-30 14:06:07 <BlueMatt> and?
342 2011-08-30 14:06:33 <BlueMatt> Im sorry, but complaining that they are delaying by a day to get shit right is just bullshit
343 2011-08-30 14:06:34 <xelister> and it sucks when someone freezes all your money?
344 2011-08-30 14:07:18 <xelister> not when someone stolen/lost my money and the deadline is when someone will the fuck give it back
345 2011-08-30 14:08:31 <BlueMatt> you are so full of shit
346 2011-08-30 14:08:51 <BlueMatt> originally, no one was getting anything back
347 2011-08-30 14:09:14 <BlueMatt> shit takes time, and complaining that its going to slow is just fucking stupid
348 2011-08-30 14:10:15 <xelister> I don't care with orginally
349 2011-08-30 14:10:27 <xelister> since 2 weeks my account is on mtgox
350 2011-08-30 14:10:40 <BlueMatt> my point is: if it werent for mtgox you would have nothing, now you are getting something, so stop complaining
351 2011-08-30 14:10:44 <xelister> and once again it takes days longer to access money they promised I can access already
352 2011-08-30 14:11:01 <xelister> that is bullshit
353 2011-08-30 14:11:32 <BlueMatt> coding takes time, Im sorry that not everyone is a coding demigod who finishes large financial-quality coding and qa in an hour
354 2011-08-30 14:11:37 <xelister> if it werent for mtgox, the guy that stolen (or deleted) 170,000 usd would be already arrested probably
355 2011-08-30 14:11:50 <BlueMatt> funny
356 2011-08-30 14:12:06 <xelister> he reached a deal with mtgox, so now mtgox is responsible. And they given a date. And it slips. So classic goxxing
357 2011-08-30 14:12:30 <xelister> BlueMatt: what is funny? few people already reported to police, and they don't find it funny that important amount of money was stolen
358 2011-08-30 14:13:05 <xelister> (yeah possibly civil suit, not "arrested")
359 2011-08-30 14:13:09 <BlueMatt> yes, the guy could probably go for criminal negligence, but you would still come out with nothing, so why do you care?
360 2011-08-30 14:13:19 <xelister> why nothing?
361 2011-08-30 14:13:26 <BlueMatt> after lawyer fees, you might make a dollar or two
362 2011-08-30 14:13:29 <xelister> 2-3 good cars
363 2011-08-30 14:13:46 <BlueMatt> 2-3 cheap toy cars maybe
364 2011-08-30 14:13:51 <xelister> hm?
365 2011-08-30 14:14:14 <xelister> with 1000+ people after you, probably including drug dealers etc
366 2011-08-30 14:14:29 <xelister> I think guy would realy do something to un-fuckup this
367 2011-08-30 14:14:40 <xelister> perhaps the wallet.dat would be magically found after all
368 2011-08-30 14:15:07 <BlueMatt> yea, split the (maybe) 50,000 you might get - 50% (at least) to lawyer and court costs, now split 25,000 among 1000+ people, hey 25$ each...wow
369 2011-08-30 14:15:20 <xelister> (or the guys is an idiot that doesnt backup 170,000 USD but at same time he is capable of single-handed developing entire exchange site that otherwise was very good working)
370 2011-08-30 14:15:42 <BlueMatt> developing a working (albeit probably not secure) site isnt hard
371 2011-08-30 14:15:50 <xelister> BlueMatt: in such case the person that lost/stolen/etc the money pays the lawyer charges, which btw are probably x10 lower in Poland then in USA
372 2011-08-30 14:16:48 <xelister> not backing up wallet.dat is most rookie of mistakes when making site hadling big amounts of BTC.  So I find it hard to belive it was just accident. Well, time will tell :)
373 2011-08-30 14:17:37 <BlueMatt> doesnt matter, as you pointed out, mtgox bought it, so they will refund money and nothing will come out of any kind of fees/court cases
374 2011-08-30 14:18:13 <xelister> yeap
375 2011-08-30 14:18:26 <xelister> since they bought it they are responsible
376 2011-08-30 14:18:35 <xelister> the money is still goxxed, therefore my orginal claim :)
377 2011-08-30 14:19:10 <xelister> btw, BlueMatt, what the fuck with freezing ALL YOUR MONEY is just "tiny problem"?  I had to borrow friend for his medical expenses since he had actually all money locked in btc at that monet heh
378 2011-08-30 14:19:32 <xelister> BlueMatt: you know what, you can prove your point
379 2011-08-30 14:19:38 <xelister> BlueMatt: transfer me 50 BTC
380 2011-08-30 14:19:43 <xelister> I will pay it back in 48 hours
381 2011-08-30 14:19:46 <BlueMatt> well if you stored enough money on bitomat to have a huge problem here, then you are just a fucking idiot
382 2011-08-30 14:19:50 <xelister> ( or a little longer.... problem, customer? :}}
383 2011-08-30 14:20:51 <BlueMatt> again: Im sorry coding doesnt happen as fast as you wish it would, and Im sorry that mtgox is being careful and making sure the code works properly and is secure, and Im also very sorry that you dont seem to understand any of that
384 2011-08-30 14:21:05 <xelister> BlueMatt: people trusting btc institutions as much as "reall currency" ones, are idiots now?
385 2011-08-30 14:21:37 <BlueMatt> to some extent, yes
386 2011-08-30 14:21:56 <BlueMatt> especially random sites that "work well" but really arent backed by anything
387 2011-08-30 14:21:57 <xelister> I think it was a in fact uncarefull.  But hopefully one day BTC will be fully trustworthy! And all cases of goxxing make this day come late.
388 2011-08-30 14:24:36 <xelister> yeah wishing for end of constant delays in getting OUR MONEY is trolling.... we should just use banks and usd like normal people
389 2011-08-30 14:26:02 <b4epoche> you should be glad you're even getting your money
390 2011-08-30 14:26:53 <xelister> funny, thought purpose of bitcoin is to stop arrogant banking dickheads
391 2011-08-30 14:27:13 <xelister> (or one of purposes)
392 2011-08-30 14:27:28 <BlueMatt> hahahaha
393 2011-08-30 14:27:42 <xelister> "you should be glad you're even getting your money" -- paypal
394 2011-08-30 14:27:51 <b4epoche> you give your money to people that store it in volatile media, you shouldn't expect much
395 2011-08-30 14:27:52 <BlueMatt> and you wonder why I called you an idiot
396 2011-08-30 14:28:22 <xelister> BlueMatt: say what now? bitcoin is not supposed to fix problems with paypal and other crap?
397 2011-08-30 14:28:39 <iddo> xelister: aren't you chatting in the wrong channel? why did you choose to bring up bitomat.pl in #bitcoin-dev instead of #mtgox or #bitcoin etc.?
398 2011-08-30 14:28:46 <xelister> perhaps not for you, but it seems many people promote it, and use it, like alternative to PP.
399 2011-08-30 14:29:40 <xelister> iddo: this was the channel for all talk, if you don't recall
400 2011-08-30 14:30:03 <iddo> hmm #bitcoin didn't use to exist?
401 2011-08-30 14:30:20 <xelister> in older days it was bootstrapping channel
402 2011-08-30 14:30:39 <iddo> #bitcoin you mean?
403 2011-08-30 14:31:01 <xelister> yeap, and -dev was basically for all talk
404 2011-08-30 14:31:14 <iddo> ok i didnt know
405 2011-08-30 14:31:24 <xelister> even today it retains the best users
406 2011-08-30 14:31:25 <xelister> like me
407 2011-08-30 14:31:29 <xelister> BlueMatt just left
408 2011-08-30 14:31:36 <xelister> unfortunatlly artz is missing
409 2011-08-30 14:32:19 <xelister> well I would say b4epoche,
410 2011-08-30 14:32:24 <xelister> <b4epoche> you should be glad you're even getting your money
411 2011-08-30 14:32:28 <xelister> b4epoche: fuck you with a cactus
412 2011-08-30 14:32:51 <xelister> this "you should be glad you're even getting your money" is what fucking paypal is seying. and why they suck
413 2011-08-30 14:33:10 <iddo> i'm not even sure whether it's legal for bitomat.pl to declare that they confiscated your money
414 2011-08-30 14:33:21 <xelister> iddo: yeah it is not
415 2011-08-30 14:33:32 <b4epoche> wow, I thought the US was the only place entitled assholes lived
416 2011-08-30 14:33:35 <xelister> now it was "sold" to mtgox (not legal, btw) and now mtgox is goxxing our 170,000 usd
417 2011-08-30 14:33:38 <iddo> i'm pretty sure that mybitcoins can legally declare that they confiscate your bitcoins
418 2011-08-30 14:33:53 <copumpkin> <xelister> b4epoche: fuck you with a cactus
419 2011-08-30 14:33:56 <copumpkin> I like that expression
420 2011-08-30 14:34:05 <iddo> same as e.g. dropbox or gmail can declare that they confiscate your data
421 2011-08-30 14:34:09 <lookdang> xelister :P
422 2011-08-30 14:34:16 <lookdang> how ya going?
423 2011-08-30 14:34:31 <b4epoche> he's in rare form
424 2011-08-30 14:34:56 <iddo> but paypal cannot declare than they confiscate your dollars, because they have to abide by financial regulation laws
425 2011-08-30 14:35:11 <xelister> iddo: PP is notorious for freezing peoples money
426 2011-08-30 14:35:25 <xelister> at least that's what everyone is saying
427 2011-08-30 14:35:28 <xelister> who uses PP
428 2011-08-30 14:35:39 <lookdang> :)
429 2011-08-30 14:35:51 <iddo> still, PP cannot just confiscate without a plausable reason, unlike mybitcoins
430 2011-08-30 14:35:52 <b4epoche> are you guys poking with your cacti?
431 2011-08-30 14:36:12 <lookdang> *getting kinky down in the -dev*
432 2011-08-30 14:36:12 <xelister> iddo: yeah
433 2011-08-30 14:36:19 <xelister> what I ment, is that this really sucks
434 2011-08-30 14:36:22 <xelister> and that I hate goxxing
435 2011-08-30 14:36:26 <lookdang> xelister, how is the btcfn project going?
436 2011-08-30 14:36:44 <xelister> like I hate mtgox goxxing 170,000 usd of polish users. and then BlueMatt says Im too picky and I should not care. wtf? anyone? :)
437 2011-08-30 14:36:55 <iddo> i guess mtgox and bitomat.pl also cannot just confiscate, because half of every trade is fiat money
438 2011-08-30 14:37:00 <xelister> lookdang: 2 weeks away
439 2011-08-30 14:37:07 <lookdang> woooot!
440 2011-08-30 14:37:08 <lookdang> :)
441 2011-08-30 14:37:21 <xelister> at least from some beta
442 2011-08-30 14:37:27 <iddo> xelister: maybe you could sue bitomat.pl ?
443 2011-08-30 14:37:33 <xelister> I hope fn stabilizes too
444 2011-08-30 14:37:34 <lookdang> making an announcement one stone
445 2011-08-30 14:37:43 <lookdang> or freetalk
446 2011-08-30 14:37:58 <xelister> lookdang: ok ;) btw good way to demask yourself but thanks:)   anyway people should use multiids for anonnets
447 2011-08-30 14:38:14 <b4epoche> xelister:  2 weeks you say&  let me take note of that
448 2011-08-30 14:38:19 <xelister> I almost give up on freetalk for now.. untill someone fixes speed of it
449 2011-08-30 14:38:36 <b4epoche> oh wait, no one really cares about what you're doing so no one will care when it's delayed
450 2011-08-30 14:39:03 <xelister> b4epoche: if so then what is your point?
451 2011-08-30 14:39:21 <lookdang> I have all the funds... I'll even find my pgp keys to pay the bounty.
452 2011-08-30 14:39:21 <xelister> I think delaying and freezing our money fucking sucks cocks
453 2011-08-30 14:39:29 <xelister> and mtgox is now totally notorious for doing that
454 2011-08-30 14:39:49 <xelister> they are not giving away money for free to polse, they made a DEAL with 3rd bigger exchange!
455 2011-08-30 14:39:52 <iddo> xelister: why don't you sue bitomat.pl ?
456 2011-08-30 14:40:02 <xelister> iddo: some people did. Perhaps me too, perhaps not
457 2011-08-30 14:40:32 <b4epoche> it's amazing to me that you are so hostile to someone being so generous to you&  bitomat had /no/ real value to MtGox
458 2011-08-30 14:41:14 <xelister> if it had no value then they are making bad busienss decissions, their problem
459 2011-08-30 14:41:19 <xelister> b4epoche: ^
460 2011-08-30 14:41:21 <iddo> xelister: but if the person who ran bitomat.pl doesn't have money, what would the lawsuit accomplish? there wasn't gov insurance, unlike fiat money in a bank
461 2011-08-30 14:41:43 <xelister> but I think it was a good decission to take over 3rd largest exchange just using few months worth of profit
462 2011-08-30 14:42:01 <b4epoche> it was a bad business decision, and it especially seems so know that people are bitching
463 2011-08-30 14:42:01 <xelister> and for pr
464 2011-08-30 14:42:37 <b4epoche> I hope your money gets 'lost' in the transfer ;-)
465 2011-08-30 14:44:42 <iddo> xelister: do you think you are entitled to get your money back? or that mtgox is being generous?
466 2011-08-30 14:44:58 <xelister> b4epoche: that is so nice of you. I hope you choke on dick and die ^_^
467 2011-08-30 14:45:27 <xelister> iddo: mtgox said it bought bitomat.pl, bitomat.pl said mtgox bought them - so now whey are responsible. or who is?
468 2011-08-30 14:46:08 <iddo> xelister: do you think you are entitled to get your money back from anyone? or that whoever returns your money is being generous?
469 2011-08-30 14:46:35 <b4epoche> generously took over the mess they created seems like a more appropriate description
470 2011-08-30 14:46:42 <xelister> ok I missread iddo
471 2011-08-30 14:46:55 <xelister> I think it is a business
472 2011-08-30 14:47:11 <xelister> if my bank X is falling, and bank Y takes over it
473 2011-08-30 14:47:24 <xelister> I demand from Y
474 2011-08-30 14:47:25 <iddo> you're saying that whoever returns you your money is doing it out of his own self-interest?
475 2011-08-30 14:47:27 <xelister> it is not charity
476 2011-08-30 14:47:45 <lianj> its not a real business
477 2011-08-30 14:47:48 <xelister> mtgox making ~100,000 usd (monthly?) is not some guy that donates
478 2011-08-30 14:48:26 <xelister> lianj: making 100,000 usd per month is not a real business?  sir? u mad?
479 2011-08-30 14:49:02 <b4epoche> you have a citation for that number?
480 2011-08-30 14:49:02 <xelister> if it would be say opensource developer taking over some old project, and then delivering 6 months late, then yea I would be just a bit mad because THAT would be charity.
481 2011-08-30 14:49:06 <iddo> xelister: banks that deal with fiat money are insured by gov, so everyone gets his money back or they all fall together via hyperinflation, that's not the case with bitomat and mtgox
482 2011-08-30 14:49:41 <kjj> ok, just stop.  when someone says they are "buying" a business, that doesn't really tell you about the underlying details
483 2011-08-30 14:49:41 <xelister> b4epoche: http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/ -> 11 milion usd monthly volume. *1% comission (0.65% on both sides = ~1%)
484 2011-08-30 14:50:37 <iddo> xelister: you still didnt answer: entitled / generosity / self-interest ? which one is it?
485 2011-08-30 14:50:52 <xelister> iddo: hmm possibly.. but what this changes? ok if shop X sells me TV but it doesnt arrive and then shop Y takes over it, I will balme Y if it still is arriving late
486 2011-08-30 14:51:18 <xelister> especially when Y gives a date of servicing X customers
487 2011-08-30 14:51:30 <xelister> hey I just said I am goxxed again. that is all.  :)
488 2011-08-30 14:51:59 <iddo> xelister: if shop X goes bankrupt, you don't get your TV
489 2011-08-30 14:52:15 <xelister> yea
490 2011-08-30 14:52:35 <iddo> it's called counterparty risk
491 2011-08-30 14:52:39 <kjj> dude.  your bitcoins are fucking gone.  as in, they do not exist any more.  somsone is planning to give you new coins, and you are bitching that it is taking too long?
492 2011-08-30 14:52:43 <xelister> so would you blame Y or not if your TV is not arriving after takeover?
493 2011-08-30 14:52:59 <xelister> yeah why are you all such pussies as customers
494 2011-08-30 14:53:44 <xelister> if my TV is not arriving because it burned in horrible accident in shop X, I still want my TV from Y that bought up X, even if Y's CEO has to sit long time at nights with 1000 chinese orphants to make them by own bare hands =)
495 2011-08-30 14:54:15 <xelister> all this cases of "sorry I accidentially your bitcoin.... so long :}" really suck.
496 2011-08-30 14:54:30 <xelister> how is anyone going to then view btc as a serious business
497 2011-08-30 14:54:42 <iddo> yes i would blame Y in that scenario, but the question that you refuse to answer is whether it was generous of mtgox (Y in your scenario) to take X, or you think you are entitled to your money
498 2011-08-30 14:54:53 <iddo> s/take/take over
499 2011-08-30 14:55:12 <xelister> I do not think it was
500 2011-08-30 14:55:18 <xelister> well it depends on details
501 2011-08-30 14:55:26 <xelister> but would you view Y as generous here?
502 2011-08-30 14:55:28 <lianj> xelister: if X had written in tiny letters that they cant be blamed with loss, Y cant be blamed either ;)
503 2011-08-30 14:55:30 <xelister> if Y is a company not a person
504 2011-08-30 14:55:37 <iddo> you don't think mtgox is being generous?
505 2011-08-30 14:55:53 <xelister> how do you define generous
506 2011-08-30 14:56:11 <xelister> I think they did it for marketing, and taking over 3rd largest competition. Which is a smart move.
507 2011-08-30 14:56:12 <iddo> xelister: with your TV scenario with Y and X, it depends on whether it's profitable of Y to take over X
508 2011-08-30 14:56:37 <xelister> if mtgox wants to do soemthing unproffitable they can sponsor an orphanage
509 2011-08-30 14:56:58 <xelister> or donate 0.5 mln$ for some linux distro or TOR etc etc
510 2011-08-30 14:56:59 <iddo> ok fine so you think mtgox was acting in its own self-interest, rather than being generous
511 2011-08-30 14:57:07 <xelister> yeap
512 2011-08-30 14:57:18 <xelister> if it would be doing it against own interst then it would be stupid
513 2011-08-30 14:57:29 <xelister> and actually inestors would sue (if it would be company with investors)
514 2011-08-30 14:57:39 <xelister> or hidden investors (e.g. buddies) would
515 2011-08-30 14:58:03 <iddo> xelister: suppose for sake of argument that mtgox didnt decide to do it, do you think you're entitled to get your bitomat.pl money back?
516 2011-08-30 14:58:30 <xelister> generously it is when I donate say money to Freenet development
517 2011-08-30 14:58:42 <xelister> its anonymous
518 2011-08-30 14:58:44 <xelister> I will never profit from it
519 2011-08-30 14:59:18 <xelister> well perfectly generous it would be to donate to some orhpanage far far away, then one would really not profit from it ever even in a remote way.
520 2011-08-30 14:59:20 <xelister> :)
521 2011-08-30 14:59:45 <iddo> ok we established that you disagree with the idea that mtgox is being generous
522 2011-08-30 14:59:50 <kjj> you don't see any benefit to yourself by living in a world with less orphans?
523 2011-08-30 14:59:51 <xelister> iddo: companies do not "donate", they invest
524 2011-08-30 15:00:11 <xelister> yea generously it would be if owner/investor of mtgox would take out some money
525 2011-08-30 15:00:16 <xelister> pay some tax on income
526 2011-08-30 15:00:24 <xelister> and then donate to say that dude that burned bitomat.pl
527 2011-08-30 15:00:37 <iddo> xelister: suppose for sake of argument that mtgox didnt decide to do it, do you think you're entitled to get your bitomat.pl money back?
528 2011-08-30 15:00:43 <UukGoblin> that's not -dev at all, is it? ;-]
529 2011-08-30 15:01:11 <UukGoblin> imho, donating money to orphanages doesn't help reduce overpopulation at all
530 2011-08-30 15:01:18 <xelister> even then... when bill gates donates to that vaccine something in affrica, you think it is what? I guess it is PR. Didnt they setup an organization in Gate's name
531 2011-08-30 15:01:51 <xelister> UukGoblin: yeap, it was general "to orphanage" example. Best would be to donate money in a way so it really gets used correctly (not sure which way is best)
532 2011-08-30 15:02:05 <iddo> xelister: why don't you answer this question?
533 2011-08-30 15:02:06 <xelister> iddo: from bitomat.pl? sure
534 2011-08-30 15:02:14 <xelister> iddo: or rather, from it's owner
535 2011-08-30 15:02:29 <xelister> so sure mtgox action probably makes this easier
536 2011-08-30 15:02:40 <xelister> still it is not neseserly donation or anything
537 2011-08-30 15:02:46 <iddo> xelister: what if it was mybitcoins instead of bitomat ? still feel entitled?
538 2011-08-30 15:02:51 <xelister> Sony makes it easier for you to get a 3D TV so what
539 2011-08-30 15:03:20 <xelister> iddo: hm? if mybitcoin ate people's money? yea they are entitled to get it back
540 2011-08-30 15:03:50 <iddo> xelister: with mybitcoins you shouldn't say "money", just say bitcoins
541 2011-08-30 15:03:59 <xelister> yeap bitcoin
542 2011-08-30 15:04:15 <iddo> xelister: i disagree with you
543 2011-08-30 15:04:15 <luke-jr> jgarzik: O.o
544 2011-08-30 15:04:34 <xelister> iddo: so what do you think
545 2011-08-30 15:04:36 <jgarzik> luke-jr: ?
546 2011-08-30 15:04:55 <iddo> if mybitcoins ate you bitcoins, you're not entitled to get them back
547 2011-08-30 15:05:10 <xelister> iddo: uh.. why so?
548 2011-08-30 15:05:27 <erus`> what came first
549 2011-08-30 15:05:33 <erus`> the bitcoin or the miner?
550 2011-08-30 15:06:27 <iddo> with mybitcoins, it's simply a case of you giving control over your private property (bitcoins) to someone else, while he was promising you whatever if was promising, and then he reneged on his promise... you didn't sign a contract with him
551 2011-08-30 15:07:04 <xelister> iddo: signed contract?
552 2011-08-30 15:07:18 <erus`> you can get the cyber police to backtrace the money
553 2011-08-30 15:07:25 <xelister> iddo: if you give me your camera to take your picture on vacation.. and then I run away with it instead is it ok? no contract ;)
554 2011-08-30 15:08:40 <iddo> so you will call the police in order to get your camera back?
555 2011-08-30 15:09:47 <xelister> yea I should
556 2011-08-30 15:09:54 <xelister> would you?
557 2011-08-30 15:10:12 <iddo> why don't you assume responsibilty for your own actions (trusting the person whom you gave the camera to), instead of involving police whose resources are funded by all tax payers
558 2011-08-30 15:10:28 <xelister> ??????? :o ?????
559 2011-08-30 15:10:40 <luke-jr> jgarzik: still waiting on those 2 pull reqs? :P
560 2011-08-30 15:10:44 <iddo> if that person stole your camera, then i agree that you should involve the police
561 2011-08-30 15:10:49 <xelister> because it is police job to take back stolen property?
562 2011-08-30 15:11:00 <luke-jr> xelister: if you weren't such a troll, I might have seriously considered loaning you 50 BTC for a few days :P
563 2011-08-30 15:11:02 <xelister> well what was stealing
564 2011-08-30 15:11:05 <iddo> xelister: but you gave him the camera
565 2011-08-30 15:11:23 <xelister> luke-jr: even if you where not troll, you can get at most 1 btc from me =)
566 2011-08-30 15:11:36 <luke-jr> iddo: verbal agreement is legally binding
567 2011-08-30 15:11:46 <xelister> actually luke-jr is right in this case ^
568 2011-08-30 15:12:09 <xelister> ofc depends on legal system, but by most legal systems. also it is "morally" the right thing
569 2011-08-30 15:12:33 <iddo> xelister: what is the scenario exactly? you gave him the camera and made it clear he should give it bank, and he agreed, and afterwards he changed his mind?
570 2011-08-30 15:12:41 <iddo> s/bank/back
571 2011-08-30 15:13:07 <xelister> you are on vacation, and you ask a stranger - hey can you make me a picture with my camer
572 2011-08-30 15:13:09 <xelister> -a
573 2011-08-30 15:13:43 <luke-jr> xelister: in that case, you chase after him and make an arrest yourself
574 2011-08-30 15:13:45 <iddo> ok interesting scenario
575 2011-08-30 15:13:55 <lianj> if you do valet parking and give the keys to a scammer instead, insureance wont cover you loss
576 2011-08-30 15:14:00 <xelister> luke-jr: yeah, but he is faster and stronger
577 2011-08-30 15:14:09 <luke-jr> xelister: that's what your gun is for
578 2011-08-30 15:14:10 <xelister> or you are average american, fat and a pussy :P
579 2011-08-30 15:14:21 <iddo> xelister: why did you trust him with your camera ?
580 2011-08-30 15:14:32 <xelister> luke-jr: you would shoot a guy that stolen you photo camera? in a crowded vacation spot? lol you troll you :)
581 2011-08-30 15:14:49 <luke-jr> xelister: :P
582 2011-08-30 15:14:49 <xelister> luke-jr: also you are arrested for heaving illegal weapon since it was in eu =)
583 2011-08-30 15:14:53 <luke-jr> iddo: pretty standard
584 2011-08-30 15:14:59 <luke-jr> xelister: sorry EU is so backward
585 2011-08-30 15:15:06 <xelister> USA
586 2011-08-30 15:15:21 <xelister> ah dont get me started lol
587 2011-08-30 15:15:47 <xelister> USA: heaving a means to murder someone is ok, but any erotica is wrrronnng.  "hey son don't watch this topless wemen, instead watch this people murdering eachother" ;)
588 2011-08-30 15:15:52 <xelister> but that is ot.
589 2011-08-30 15:16:32 <iddo> i remember forum thread about roommate who stole camera, posted picture and tried to shame her into giving it back, but even there they didn't involve the police i think
590 2011-08-30 15:16:39 <xelister> iddo: it is standard to ask someone to snap your photo with your camera on vacation, and lets assume you don't have the means to get it back yourself, then yeayou should ask police or something
591 2011-08-30 15:16:43 <luke-jr> xelister: yes, let's outlaw any tool can be abused for murder
592 2011-08-30 15:16:57 <luke-jr> xelister: nevermind the fact that a murderer won't be obeying that law in the first place
593 2011-08-30 15:17:19 <luke-jr> therefore, you leave only criminals with guns
594 2011-08-30 15:17:19 <xelister> luke-jr: actually I think the "erotica is worse then murder" part is what is fucked up with usa
595 2011-08-30 15:17:26 <xelister> yea I know
596 2011-08-30 15:17:36 <xelister> guns should be legal, also nercotics and erotica
597 2011-08-30 15:17:38 <luke-jr> xelister: nobody said "erotica" is worse than murder. they are both evil
598 2011-08-30 15:17:43 <xelister> prohibitions just gives opposite effect
599 2011-08-30 15:17:44 <nanotube> why is this conversation on -dev?
600 2011-08-30 15:17:49 <iddo> xelister: you use the word standard to mean you're entitled to legal protection? why not just admit that you trusted the wrong person and take the loss
601 2011-08-30 15:17:55 <xelister> nanotube: because we hope you will join o/
602 2011-08-30 15:17:57 <luke-jr> nanotube: cuz jgarzik is taking a long time to answer about my pull reqs? :p
603 2011-08-30 15:18:00 <nanotube> xelister: lol
604 2011-08-30 15:18:02 <xelister> nanotube: also Im too cool for bitcoin
605 2011-08-30 15:18:05 <xelister> #bitcoin
606 2011-08-30 15:18:13 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I'll get to those today
607 2011-08-30 15:18:24 <luke-jr> jgarzik: thanks
608 2011-08-30 15:18:26 <xelister> yea also we should trollin jgarzik usafag :P
609 2011-08-30 15:18:33 <xelister> luke-jr:  you should echo all my texts while he is still ignoring me
610 2011-08-30 15:18:47 <xelister> no but seriously the bitomat.pl IS ontopic.
611 2011-08-30 15:18:52 <luke-jr> xelister: hah, jgarzik is ignoring you? maybe a good idea&
612 2011-08-30 15:18:56 <luke-jr> no it isn't
613 2011-08-30 15:19:06 <luke-jr> this is -dev, not -police or -markettalk
614 2011-08-30 15:19:09 <nanotube> it is ontopic for #mtgox maybe, but certainly not for -dev
615 2011-08-30 15:19:15 <nanotube> or -police heh yea
616 2011-08-30 15:19:16 <xelister> so in summary I blame mtgox for goxxing bitomat.pl former users (that mtgox bought up)... opinions?
617 2011-08-30 15:19:18 <luke-jr> yeah, #mtgox makes the best sense
618 2011-08-30 15:19:32 <iddo> #mtgox-chat maybe:)
619 2011-08-30 15:19:43 <luke-jr> xelister: my opinion is that a few days delay is not a problem or liability
620 2011-08-30 15:19:53 <luke-jr> they had no obligation to give you an ETA in the first place
621 2011-08-30 15:19:56 <xelister> I just claim that
622 2011-08-30 15:20:04 <xelister> I'm goxxed aagaaaaaaaaain ;_;
623 2011-08-30 15:20:06 <xelister> :)
624 2011-08-30 15:20:18 <xelister> (actually, more my friend. I dont trust exchanges nowdays)
625 2011-08-30 15:20:26 <luke-jr> and it isn't "locking funds"-- that implies they are intentionally obstructing your access until further notice
626 2011-08-30 15:20:41 <xelister> luke-jr: didn't said it is intentionall
627 2011-08-30 15:20:47 <xelister> orginall goxxing also was not
628 2011-08-30 15:20:49 <luke-jr> that's what it means
629 2011-08-30 15:20:55 <luke-jr> goxxing is not a word
630 2011-08-30 15:21:04 <xelister> it is now =)
631 2011-08-30 15:21:07 <luke-jr> it has recently been invented as one meaning "got hacked"
632 2011-08-30 15:21:12 <luke-jr> which definitely is false here
633 2011-08-30 15:21:15 <xelister> "locking" means intentionall?
634 2011-08-30 15:21:23 <luke-jr> yes
635 2011-08-30 15:21:25 <xelister> if you get a condition of dick locking in a vagina, is it too?
636 2011-08-30 15:21:37 <xelister> it's actuall medical condition btw =)
637 2011-08-30 15:22:14 <xelister> in any case, lets say my funds are inaccessible at mtgox.  AGAIN.   wish this would end =)
638 2011-08-30 15:22:23 <luke-jr> obviously words have different meanings in different contexts
639 2011-08-30 15:23:52 <xelister> what was the bug bug making < .3.24 insecure?
640 2011-08-30 15:23:55 <xelister> *big bug
641 2011-08-30 15:24:14 <luke-jr> xelister: that's bs to make people upgrade I think
642 2011-08-30 15:24:25 <nanotube> iirc, it was just problems with blockchain propagation
643 2011-08-30 15:24:28 <luke-jr> xelister: the real problem is that it doesn't transmit blocks right or something
644 2011-08-30 15:25:10 <nanotube> (i.e., due to larger block size, older clients dropped connections due to larger request size or some such)
645 2011-08-30 15:25:39 <xelister> is finally initiall download fast?
646 2011-08-30 15:25:56 <luke-jr> doubt it :P
647 2011-08-30 15:26:05 <xelister> trololo
648 2011-08-30 15:26:26 <nanotube> yes it is - if you grab the blockchain snapshot off somewhere :)
649 2011-08-30 15:26:33 <xelister> <satoshi> - if (recent_blocks > 65536) return;
650 2011-08-30 15:26:39 <xelister> <satoshi> + if (recent_blocks > 512) return;
651 2011-08-30 15:26:44 <xelister> <satoshi> // problem, users?
652 2011-08-30 15:26:51 <nanotube> heh
653 2011-08-30 15:27:08 <xelister> <satoshi> // I guess everyone will find it's a scam before block 100k anyway
654 2011-08-30 15:27:50 <luke-jr> xelister: https://bitly.com/rmzI3S
655 2011-08-30 15:28:12 <xelister> saved by flashblock.
656 2011-08-30 15:28:48 <xelister> speaking of slow, also the startup is slow
657 2011-08-30 15:28:51 <xelister> 2 minutes typically
658 2011-08-30 15:29:15 <xelister> obviously it is slowly reading&parsing entire chain on start
659 2011-08-30 15:38:32 <ThomasV> how is it possible to contribute negative hashrate to the network ? http://solidcoin.kicks-ass.org/graphs/graphs.html
660 2011-08-30 15:39:05 <lfm> ThomasV: um nope
661 2011-08-30 15:39:09 <ThomasV> this must be a secret weapon
662 2011-08-30 15:39:26 <copumpkin> This reflects the HashRate as reported by pools through their APIs or html pages.
663 2011-08-30 15:39:28 <lfm> maybe with a time machine
664 2011-08-30 15:39:36 <copumpkin> The unknown hashrate is determined by subtracting the sum of the pool-reported rates from the traditionally calculated block-based hashrate (see Notes in Hashrate Chart)
665 2011-08-30 15:39:40 <copumpkin> there you go
666 2011-08-30 15:39:59 <copumpkin> clearly one or more pools is overestimating their contribution
667 2011-08-30 15:40:03 <luke-jr> therefore, pools report a total combined hashrate greater than the total network estimate :P
668 2011-08-30 15:40:06 <ThomasV> so the pools are lying ?
669 2011-08-30 15:40:13 <copumpkin> or just miscalculating
670 2011-08-30 15:40:22 <luke-jr> there is no exact hashrate calculator
671 2011-08-30 15:40:29 <ThomasV> I see
672 2011-08-30 15:40:37 <lfm> copumpkin: or people are sending shares and holding back blocks to pools
673 2011-08-30 15:41:03 <lfm> none of which is really negative hashrate
674 2011-08-30 15:49:56 <ThomasV> tcatm: it would be nice to have a pie chart for the traded volume on exchanges in your list
675 2011-08-30 15:50:15 <ThomasV> eg. to visualize mtgox's share
676 2011-08-30 15:50:44 <ThomasV> it would probably need to be averaged on several days
677 2011-08-30 15:51:58 <luke-jr> 7-day rolling window?
678 2011-08-30 15:52:42 <ThomasV> yes, something like that. single day is not meaningful
679 2011-08-30 15:55:04 <ThomasV> the volume has been steadily increasing on exchanges using other currencies, such as btcchina.com or virtexcad
680 2011-08-30 15:55:18 <ThomasV> and virwox too
681 2011-08-30 15:55:33 <ciscoftw> problem with "http://svn.json-rpc.org/trunk/python-jsonrpc", suggestion(s) to access/install?
682 2011-08-30 15:58:37 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: bitcoinrpc
683 2011-08-30 15:58:45 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: is API-compatible mostly
684 2011-08-30 15:59:14 <ciscoftw> im going to be using rpc to talk to my headend machine, running the bt client/server...
685 2011-08-30 15:59:37 <ciscoftw> but i need to get python's json-rpc installed
686 2011-08-30 15:59:52 <jtaylor> for what?
687 2011-08-30 16:00:00 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: bitcoinrpc is API-compatible mostly
688 2011-08-30 16:00:19 <ciscoftw> so why would i want to use json-rpc, if i can use API's???
689 2011-08-30 16:00:53 <luke-jr> &
690 2011-08-30 16:01:19 <luke-jr> apparently you don't know how to write software, or don't know English.
691 2011-08-30 16:01:25 <ciscoftw> this is how i had it working a few weeks ago, perhaps there's a better way
692 2011-08-30 16:01:32 <ciscoftw> dude... wow. i'm a gd user, not a dev
693 2011-08-30 16:02:14 <luke-jr> RPC is a dev thing
694 2011-08-30 16:02:18 <ciscoftw> i was asking "why would you use rpc, if you could use an API"
695 2011-08-30 16:02:24 <ciscoftw> RPC is a protocol
696 2011-08-30 16:02:40 <ciscoftw> used for alot of things that want to leverage tcp
697 2011-08-30 16:02:53 <ciscoftw> ...maybe i could be a dev
698 2011-08-30 16:03:03 <luke-jr> and interfacing with RPC requires an API
699 2011-08-30 16:03:04 <luke-jr> duh
700 2011-08-30 16:03:19 <ciscoftw> si si
701 2011-08-30 16:04:13 <ciscoftw> so any suggestions to install from svn if i cant access the url?
702 2011-08-30 16:04:33 <lfm> ciscoftw: um, rpc IS an api
703 2011-08-30 16:05:03 <jtaylor> ciscoftw: its on git now so far I know
704 2011-08-30 16:05:05 <jtaylor> google it
705 2011-08-30 16:05:08 <jtaylor> github probably
706 2011-08-30 16:05:38 <ciscoftw> have to dl the source, or can i svn from github?
707 2011-08-30 16:06:00 <lfm> ciscoftw: um svn is the source
708 2011-08-30 16:06:16 <jtaylor> yes you actually can svn from github :)
709 2011-08-30 16:06:23 <jtaylor> but git is the prefered interface
710 2011-08-30 16:06:43 <ciscoftw> so you would use the command "git"???
711 2011-08-30 16:06:49 <ciscoftw> instead of svn?
712 2011-08-30 16:06:51 <jtaylor> git clone url
713 2011-08-30 16:07:07 <ciscoftw> :( can you give an example :(
714 2011-08-30 16:07:11 <ciscoftw> i suck, i know :(
715 2011-08-30 16:07:34 <ciscoftw> "svn checkout http://svn.json-rpc.org/trunk/python-jsonrpc"
716 2011-08-30 16:10:09 <lfm> ciscoftw: why dont you use bin?
717 2011-08-30 16:10:18 <ciscoftw> i found the github mirror.. whats the command to install via svn/git?
718 2011-08-30 16:10:28 <ciscoftw> bin? pastebin?
719 2011-08-30 16:10:40 <lfm> ciscoftw: precompiled binary
720 2011-08-30 16:10:51 <jtaylor> ciscoftw: thats probably correct one: bzr checkout http://bzr.json-rpc.org/trunk
721 2011-08-30 16:10:53 <ciscoftw> cant find it via any repo's
722 2011-08-30 16:11:04 <lfm> bitcoin.org
723 2011-08-30 16:11:10 <ciscoftw> naaa, thats the new one :(
724 2011-08-30 16:11:19 <ciscoftw> pretty sure i need to old one
725 2011-08-30 16:11:41 <lfm> why you need old, and you arnt getting old from git
726 2011-08-30 16:12:05 <ciscoftw> fournd url on GIT, whats command/method to install via GIT? "https://github.com/bmjames/python-jsonrpc.git"
727 2011-08-30 16:12:23 <jtaylor> git clone
728 2011-08-30 17:02:06 <upb> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/unsecure-directo