1 2011-09-04 00:00:13 <CIA-101> bitcoin: aldiyen * r0b1acaee5bc2 Phoenix-Miner-personal/ (ConsoleLogger.py phoenix.py): Cleanup changes to status line drawing behavior
  2 2011-09-04 00:19:40 <diki> phantomcircuit:so which channel was the discussion at with ben?
  3 2011-09-04 01:29:33 <Guilherme> Someone who understands deeply the block header?
  4 2011-09-04 01:30:43 <copumpkin> ask the question
  5 2011-09-04 01:30:47 <copumpkin> if someone knows the answer, they will answer
  6 2011-09-04 01:31:50 <Guilherme> I'm looking into the data field returned by getwork...
  7 2011-09-04 01:32:04 <Guilherme> It ends with 280.
  8 2011-09-04 01:32:45 <Guilherme> But, the block header has 641 bytes.
  9 2011-09-04 01:33:03 <Guilherme> *bits
 10 2011-09-04 01:33:07 <lianj> getwork is not the block header
 11 2011-09-04 01:33:23 <Guilherme> Yep.
 12 2011-09-04 01:35:07 <Guilherme> Block header seems to have 648 bits.
 13 2011-09-04 01:35:51 <Guilherme> So the SHA should append to the end of data 288 instead of 280.
 14 2011-09-04 01:48:35 <lfm> Guilherme Block headers are 80 bytes
 15 2011-09-04 01:48:47 <lfm> 640 bits
 16 2011-09-04 01:50:56 <lfm> ;;later send Guilherme Block headers are 80 bytes, 640 bits
 17 2011-09-04 01:50:57 <gribble> Error: The "Later" plugin is loaded, but there is no command named "send" in it.  Try "list Later" to see the commands in the "Later" plugin.
 18 2011-09-04 01:51:19 <gribble> notes, remove, and tell
 19 2011-09-04 01:51:19 <lfm> ;;list later
 20 2011-09-04 01:51:26 <lfm> ;;later tell Guilherme Block headers are 80 bytes, 640 bits
 21 2011-09-04 01:51:27 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 22 2011-09-04 01:51:53 <lfm> ;;help later
 23 2011-09-04 01:51:54 <gribble> Error: There is no command "later".
 24 2011-09-04 01:52:05 <gribble> (tell <nick> <text>) -- Tells the <nick> whatever <text> is. Use nested commands to your benefit here.
 25 2011-09-04 01:52:05 <lfm> ;;help tell
 26 2011-09-04 01:53:32 <someone42> lfm: the "Block headers" structure in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification lists a one-byte "txn_count" field
 27 2011-09-04 01:53:48 <someone42> yet https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.h#L796 doesn't seem to include this field
 28 2011-09-04 01:54:03 <lfm> someone well thats not part of the block header for calculating hashes
 29 2011-09-04 01:58:53 <forrestv> someone42, that txn_count field is send in 'headers' messages as 0 and in 'block' messages as the count of txns followed by the txns, but yeah, not used for hashing
 30 2011-09-04 02:03:20 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
 31 2011-09-04 02:03:21 <gribble> 143863
 32 2011-09-04 02:05:41 <CIA-101> bitcoin: aldiyen * re4b492dca467 Phoenix-Miner-personal/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Only abandon work if currentUnit is the one that the bad work came from; check that rollntime header value doesn't look like something that means 'false'
 33 2011-09-04 02:05:44 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * r12a167a3f142 cgminer/ (adl.c main.c): Implement menus to change temperature limits.
 34 2011-09-04 02:08:29 <someone42> forrestv: thanks
 35 2011-09-04 02:09:45 <forrestv> someone42, oh, and it is listed there - it's part of the structure serialized by the line mentioning 'vtx'
 36 2011-09-04 02:20:38 <lfm> whats otg
 37 2011-09-04 02:30:28 <forrestv> lfm, guessing it's "on the go"
 38 2011-09-04 02:35:08 <luke-jr> re luke-jr|otg?
 39 2011-09-04 02:35:09 <luke-jr> ye
 40 2011-09-04 04:36:11 <andyroo> ;;ticker
 41 2011-09-04 04:36:13 <gribble> Best bid: 8.3603, Best ask: 8.4021, Bid-ask spread: 0.0418, Last trade: 8.3603, 24 hour volume: 7250, 24 hour low: 8.35011, 24 hour high: 8.6699
 42 2011-09-04 04:45:42 <CIA-101> bitcoin: aldiyen * r755ca78965e4 Phoenix-Miner-personal/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Give each WorkUnit a unique identifier so we know to abandon WorkQueue's currentUnit even if it's a clone of the one that failed and not the original; minor code cleanup
 43 2011-09-04 05:52:21 <lfm> bc,mtgox
 44 2011-09-04 05:52:26 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
 45 2011-09-04 05:52:27 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":8.60905,"low":8.33,"avg":8.483260116,"vwap":8.456097456,"vol":6807,"last":8.37799,"buy":8.33,"sell":8.332}}
 46 2011-09-04 07:12:03 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
 47 2011-09-04 07:12:04 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":8.597,"low":8.31001,"avg":8.476055552,"vwap":8.451128453,"vol":6762,"last":8.36081,"buy":8.36,"sell":8.3608}}
 48 2011-09-04 10:00:43 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * rec8808d00429 cgminer/ (adl.c main.c miner.h): Implement setting the GPU engine clock speed of all devices or each device as a comma separated value.
 49 2011-09-04 10:10:43 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * r54bc30ceec9c cgminer/ (adl.c main.c miner.h): Implement setting the GPU memory clock speed of all devices or each device as a comma separated value.
 50 2011-09-04 10:10:44 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * r8ae273c56c22 cgminer/ (adl.c main.c miner.h): Implement setting the GPU voltage of all devices or each device as a comma separated value.
 51 2011-09-04 10:30:43 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * r3a5663cac11b cgminer/ (adl.c main.c miner.h): Implement setting the GPU fan speed of all devices or each device as a comma separated value.
 52 2011-09-04 11:00:42 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * rbd292258d306 cgminer/ (adl.c adl.h main.c miner.h): Add support for monitoring powertune setting.
 53 2011-09-04 11:10:41 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r6e22ff0df0a8 / (19 files in 9 dirs): Automatic internal blockchain organisation which triggers block verification.
 54 2011-09-04 11:20:43 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * r7711c6fbd588 cgminer/adl.c: Implement changing of powertune value from the GPU change settings menu.
 55 2011-09-04 11:20:44 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * r656bacc5a9d5 cgminer/adl.c: Get the value of powertune in get_stats.
 56 2011-09-04 11:21:02 <mabus> dude either really likes contributing or just commenting
 57 2011-09-04 11:23:38 <Graet> he's adding some major changes to his miner
 58 2011-09-04 11:24:17 <Diablo-D3> mabus has apparently never coded
 59 2011-09-04 11:24:40 <mabus> what makes you say that
 60 2011-09-04 11:25:44 <Diablo-D3> [09:21:02] <mabus> dude either really likes contributing or just commenting
 61 2011-09-04 11:25:51 <mabus> yes that is what i said
 62 2011-09-04 11:26:01 <Diablo-D3> this is what made me say that.
 63 2011-09-04 11:26:15 <mabus> what from that comment makes you infer something about my experience
 64 2011-09-04 11:27:41 <mabus> rather than pasting what i said, some logic might be appropriate
 65 2011-09-04 11:28:20 <mabus> i would argue that to gather experience job security is paramount. and for that we have code unmaintainability which includes a lack of commenting
 66 2011-09-04 11:28:50 <Diablo-D3> Your argument would be invalid, ck is not paid to write his mainer, and since it is on github it is one click away from being forked.
 67 2011-09-04 11:29:43 <mabus> how does that make my argument invalid
 68 2011-09-04 11:29:48 <mabus> for a pretend coder you suck at logic
 69 2011-09-04 11:30:23 <phantomcircuit> mabus, do you actually have sushi
 70 2011-09-04 11:30:45 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * r16d0b672e281 cgminer/ (main.c miner.h): Implement setting the GPU powertune value of all devices or each device as a comma separated value.
 71 2011-09-04 11:30:46 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * rfc7767b513cd cgminer/adl.c: Actually set the parameter passed value for powertune.
 72 2011-09-04 11:31:01 <mabus> no, sushi is overrated
 73 2011-09-04 11:31:12 <phantomcircuit> zomg gtfo
 74 2011-09-04 11:32:01 <Diablo-D3> mabus: Im a pretend coder now? lol.
 75 2011-09-04 11:39:34 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, i liked that
 76 2011-09-04 11:40:24 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: ?
 77 2011-09-04 11:40:38 <phantomcircuit> you being a pretend coder
 78 2011-09-04 11:40:55 <Diablo-D3> I must have epic pretend Java then
 79 2011-09-04 11:41:54 <phantomcircuit> lulz
 80 2011-09-04 11:42:13 <phantomcircuit> i have literally never written anything in java
 81 2011-09-04 11:42:26 <Diablo-D3> apparently neither have I
 82 2011-09-04 11:42:30 <mabus> you must make a lot of money. most indians i know are only kind of good at java
 83 2011-09-04 11:42:56 <phantomcircuit> lol
 84 2011-09-04 11:43:16 <Diablo-D3> yes, pretend money, lots of it
 85 2011-09-04 11:44:42 <phantomcircuit> zomg
 86 2011-09-04 11:44:48 <phantomcircuit> fire alarm is beeping
 87 2011-09-04 11:44:53 <phantomcircuit> >.>
 88 2011-09-04 11:45:03 <Diablo-D3> well reset it
 89 2011-09-04 11:46:10 <mabus> at my last apartment i stopped evacuating for those
 90 2011-09-04 11:46:21 <mabus> every month? really?
 91 2011-09-04 11:46:47 <mabus> especially annoying when you're working remote
 92 2011-09-04 11:48:44 <aldiyen> &job security depends on code unmaintainability?
 93 2011-09-04 11:48:47 <aldiyen> ahahahahaha
 94 2011-09-04 11:49:04 <Diablo-D3> aldiyen: well, thats why C++ was invented after all ;)
 95 2011-09-04 11:49:06 <mabus> in the consultant world
 96 2011-09-04 11:49:31 <mabus> http://thc.org/root/phun/unmaintain.html
 97 2011-09-04 11:51:15 <aldiyen> wait I can't tell if you're joking
 98 2011-09-04 11:51:26 <phantomcircuit> he isn't
 99 2011-09-04 11:52:29 <mabus> i am mostly
100 2011-09-04 11:54:12 <luke-jr> [09:24:17] <Diablo-D3> mabus has apparently never coded <-- I concur
101 2011-09-04 11:54:26 <mabus> i cant argue with a man of faith
102 2011-09-04 11:54:38 <luke-jr> job security is no excuse to do a poor job
103 2011-09-04 11:54:50 <mabus> clearly i was joking
104 2011-09-04 11:54:59 <luke-jr> nobody else thought so
105 2011-09-04 11:55:17 <mabus> i posted the referenced famous joke for anybody who has not read it
106 2011-09-04 11:56:01 <mabus> i cant be surprised a catholic can come to set conclusions without any sound logic
107 2011-09-04 12:16:56 <mabus> http://blog.e-gold.com/
108 2011-09-04 12:17:08 <mabus> accidental paste, ignore
109 2011-09-04 12:17:21 <cjdelisle> no
110 2011-09-04 12:18:39 <cjdelisle> wow that sucks
111 2011-09-04 12:19:12 <mabus> better than the nothing i was expecting account holders to get back
112 2011-09-04 12:21:03 <cjdelisle> If I understand correctly, there is a statute against coining money in the US whereas printing paper money is legal.
113 2011-09-04 12:23:39 <cjdelisle> Hence the action against the liberty dollar man. The words by the US attorney about him being a "domestic terrorist" were however, IMO, completely uncalled for and not aligned with their stated goal of remedying the situation.
114 2011-09-04 12:25:21 <mabus> yeah that was unsettling
115 2011-09-04 12:28:38 <asher^> what nick does Meni Rosenfeld use on irc?
116 2011-09-04 12:36:07 <phantomcircuit> cjdelisle, he wasn't actually charged under that statute i believe he was charged under wire fraud statutes
117 2011-09-04 12:37:05 <cjdelisle> Was there an actual victim of this fraud or was it some vague statutory violation type of thing/
118 2011-09-04 12:37:07 <mabus> i thought he was also charged with counterfeiting
119 2011-09-04 12:38:12 <phantomcircuit> counterfeiting
120 2011-09-04 12:39:18 <phantomcircuit> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2.html
121 2011-09-04 12:39:27 <phantomcircuit> that too but i have no idea what that's trying to state
122 2011-09-04 12:39:41 <phantomcircuit> so
123 2011-09-04 12:39:48 <phantomcircuit> counterfeiting and minting coinage
124 2011-09-04 12:40:00 <mabus> On March 18, 2011, von NotHaus was found guilty on various counts, including the making of counterfeit coins.
125 2011-09-04 12:40:28 <cjdelisle> That statute is about principle vs. agent
126 2011-09-04 12:40:37 <phantomcircuit> his main problem was probably that he taunted them
127 2011-09-04 12:40:51 <cjdelisle> Trolling is not a criminal offense.
128 2011-09-04 12:40:53 <asher^> iirc the liberty dollar thing got in trouble becaues the word 'dollar' was used
129 2011-09-04 12:40:57 <mabus> http://www.courierpress.com/news/2011/mar/19/local-liberty-dollar-architect-found-guilty/
130 2011-09-04 12:41:21 <mabus> dollar is used by many non USD currencies
131 2011-09-04 12:41:29 <mabus> isn't even american in origin
132 2011-09-04 12:41:42 <asher^> sure
133 2011-09-04 12:41:51 <asher^> but this was someone inside the US making coins and using the word
134 2011-09-04 12:45:11 <cjdelisle> That article doesn't say anything about the statute they were charging over.
135 2011-09-04 12:45:46 <cjdelisle> Also where the fuck did they find a jury to convict that. They must have looked high and low for 12 people who would say yes to that.
136 2011-09-04 12:53:48 <cjdelisle> right you are, they went after him for counterfeiting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar#Indictment
137 2011-09-04 13:14:48 <Diablo-D3> [10:40:52] <asher^> iirc the liberty dollar thing got in trouble becaues the word 'dollar' was used
138 2011-09-04 13:14:58 <Diablo-D3> no, they got in trouble because the Fed saw them as a threat
139 2011-09-04 13:15:29 <Diablo-D3> the official reason was they got in trouble because the government claimed they were trying to pass it off as real money
140 2011-09-04 13:15:53 <Diablo-D3> which isnt true, the most primary selling point of the product was it is not money and cannot be confused with any form of legal tender
141 2011-09-04 13:16:14 <Diablo-D3> the government tried to say they own the liberty motif, which they dont
142 2011-09-04 13:16:24 <Diablo-D3> the use of the word dollar was secondary to that argument
143 2011-09-04 13:18:12 <cjdelisle> I would like to think that the government doesn't twist the law to fit their own desires but the fact that egold has had so much trouble too is also an indication that you are right.
144 2011-09-04 13:18:52 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle: dude, there is so much fucking evidence that the government knowingly and willfully twists the law that it isnt even worth considering the alternative of a straight honest government
145 2011-09-04 13:19:11 <asher^> ^
146 2011-09-04 13:19:26 <soap> Diablo-D3, so you're saying they didn't promise to rebase the value of the Liberty Dollar?
147 2011-09-04 13:19:38 <soap> Liberty Services didn
148 2011-09-04 13:19:50 <soap> 't promise to maintain parity?
149 2011-09-04 13:20:05 <asher^> if people start using currency other than their own theyd go out of business pretty quick
150 2011-09-04 13:20:06 <Diablo-D3> soap: nope. they were rebasing, but not because of that.
151 2011-09-04 13:20:06 <soap> My bad, wrong channel.
152 2011-09-04 13:20:33 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle: btw, in addition, they stole tons of gold and silver that was privately owned by individuals
153 2011-09-04 13:20:49 <Diablo-D3> it was sent to Liberty Dollar to be minted into coins for the owners of the metal
154 2011-09-04 13:20:58 <Diablo-D3> as in, it was not property of von NotHaus
155 2011-09-04 13:21:19 <makomk> cjdelisle: the actual victims were the companies and individuals that got passed "dollars" that weren't legal tender and were worth less than their precious metal content.
156 2011-09-04 13:21:31 <Diablo-D3> makomk: actually, thats the hilarity
157 2011-09-04 13:21:50 <Diablo-D3> the value of the coins FAR exceeds what an idiot thinks they're worth
158 2011-09-04 13:22:22 <cjdelisle> What is legal tender?
159 2011-09-04 13:22:29 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle: whatever the government says it is.
160 2011-09-04 13:22:35 <makomk> Diablo-D3: nope, he'd set the face value at something like 50% more than the value of the precious metal.
161 2011-09-04 13:22:42 <soap> is this not a discussion for #bitcoin and NOT #bitcoin-dev?
162 2011-09-04 13:23:12 <Diablo-D3> makomk: not entirely. it was sold at a premium of what it took to mint the coin
163 2011-09-04 13:23:23 <Diablo-D3> makomk: early runs had higher mark up
164 2011-09-04 13:23:50 <Diablo-D3> makomk: however, it took about a year and a half for the value of silver to catch up and exceed what it said on the coin
165 2011-09-04 13:24:10 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle: there is no negative sense of the term legal tender
166 2011-09-04 13:24:15 <cjdelisle> makomk: you said that people got passed "dollars" which were not legal tender, are you asserting that Federal Reserve notes are legal tender?
167 2011-09-04 13:24:43 <makomk> Diablo-D3: except before then he revalued them with a new face value that again exceeded the value of the precious metal.
168 2011-09-04 13:24:45 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle: the government wont arrest me for possessing counterfeit money for, say, having canadian dollars
169 2011-09-04 13:24:59 <Diablo-D3> makomk: yes, but he also bought back all the old coins
170 2011-09-04 13:25:30 <makomk> In exachange for new coins with the same metal content, but the new face value right?
171 2011-09-04 13:26:03 <Diablo-D3> yes, thats the inherit problem with having a face value
172 2011-09-04 13:26:11 <Diablo-D3> but not related to the government's argument.
173 2011-09-04 13:26:21 <Diablo-D3> "1 troy ounce of silver" IS a monetary value.
174 2011-09-04 13:26:26 <Diablo-D3> its like saying "1 dollar"
175 2011-09-04 13:27:19 <makomk> If he'd stamped 1 troy ounce on them I think it would've been legal.
176 2011-09-04 13:27:33 <Diablo-D3> makomk: well thats the thing
177 2011-09-04 13:27:36 <Diablo-D3> nothing he did was illegal
178 2011-09-04 13:27:44 <Diablo-D3> the claims of the government were not substantiated
179 2011-09-04 13:27:54 <makomk> The reason he didn't do that was that passing them off as US doallrs was an imprtant part of his business plan.
180 2011-09-04 13:28:07 <Diablo-D3> except he did not pass them off as US dollars
181 2011-09-04 13:28:19 <Diablo-D3> they do not look like US currency and cannot be confused with US currency
182 2011-09-04 13:28:56 <makomk> Diablo-D3: he was filmed, for a news item, paying for goods with them at a store that had never previously hearde of the Liberty Dollar by describing the coins as "the new dollar".
183 2011-09-04 13:29:11 <Diablo-D3> makomk: not that Im aware of, no.
184 2011-09-04 13:30:09 <Diablo-D3> makomk: because the store that he shopped at would also be in violation of the same set of laws they grabbed Liberty Dollar over
185 2011-09-04 13:30:26 <Diablo-D3> in addition, any company that accepts foreign currency would be illegal
186 2011-09-04 13:30:30 <Diablo-D3> no pesos, no cdns.
187 2011-09-04 13:31:07 <Diablo-D3> hell, the coins said on them "NOT legal tender"
188 2011-09-04 13:33:41 <cjdelisle> The coins looked governmentish, if true that he passed them to a store as "the new dollar" implying that they were government sanctioned, he probably was on morally shakey ground. If he had the metal to back those coins then he clearly meant to do right, there is no criminal scheme which ends in him sailing off to some island nation with millions in stolen loot.
189 2011-09-04 13:34:38 <cjdelisle> The government couldn't AFAIK provide anyone who claimed to be victimized by him so they, at least, bent the law to make him into a violator. The lack of clear criminal intent is another can of worms entirely.
190 2011-09-04 13:35:57 <cjdelisle> And my question, what is legal tender, remains unanswered by makomk.
191 2011-09-04 13:38:44 <noagendamarket> its not foreign currency because no government issues them
192 2011-09-04 13:39:30 <noagendamarket> how do you tell what s a foreign bitcoin and what isnt ?
193 2011-09-04 13:39:36 <edcba> ;;bc,mtgox
194 2011-09-04 13:39:36 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":8.579,"low":8.08,"avg":8.383467156,"vwap":8.318234099,"vol":10493,"last":8.16309,"buy":8.16655,"sell":8.20035}}
195 2011-09-04 13:39:57 <edcba> is volume low or bitcoin stabilized ?
196 2011-09-04 13:47:33 <MagicalTux> edcba: volume is always lower on weekends
197 2011-09-04 13:53:49 <edcba> but it's one week since it is 8.5
198 2011-09-04 13:55:10 <makomk> Diablo-D3: cjdelisle: see http://www.opencurrency.com/liberty-dollars-arrogance-ends-in-federal-guilty-verdict/ for the video in question...
199 2011-09-04 13:56:57 <makomk> (Also, technically legal tender just defines what kinds of money you're required to accept in settlement of a debt...)4;2~
200 2011-09-04 13:58:15 <lfm> makomk: note "liberty Dollars" not equal "Liberty Reserve"
201 2011-09-04 14:01:51 <cjdelisle> You're close to giving me an answer, I want to know if you classify Federal Reserve notes as legal tender and if not, what is. Also I would like to know your source because I don't have a reliable source on the answer to that question.
202 2011-09-04 14:02:43 <makomk> I suspect the issue has never come up....
203 2011-09-04 14:03:50 <cjdelisle> k so you don't know what is, you just know what isn't.
204 2011-09-04 14:05:15 <mabus> cjdelisle: legal tender is what you pay your taxes with
205 2011-09-04 14:06:14 <makomk> It appears they are legal tender actually, fairly clearly defined as such even.,
206 2011-09-04 14:06:33 <cjdelisle> sauce plz?
207 2011-09-04 14:06:56 <mabus> doesnt it say right on american bills? forgive me, i dont have any on me, i'm not american
208 2011-09-04 14:07:16 <lfm> ya but that doesnt make it law
209 2011-09-04 14:07:45 <makomk> Title 31, Chapter 51, Subchapter I, Section 5103 of the US Code.
210 2011-09-04 14:09:20 <makomk> I presume there's sone original bill dewfining this somewhere...
211 2011-09-04 14:09:38 <mabus> federal reserve act?
212 2011-09-04 14:09:55 <cjdelisle> Thx
213 2011-09-04 14:10:41 <cjdelisle> That's an interesting act since, it would seem, the Constitution compels the states not to accept it.
214 2011-09-04 14:11:56 <mabus> i think thats a fairly easy argument to win amongst the bitcoin community. convince everybody else.
215 2011-09-04 14:12:26 <cjdelisle> I'm not trying to make an argument about it, it's just a legal novelty.
216 2011-09-04 14:13:05 <lfm> I thot people decided bitcoin was more of a comodity than a currency under the law
217 2011-09-04 14:13:32 <mabus> but has a judge
218 2011-09-04 14:13:55 <lfm> not yet, I figgure not many judges have even heard of bitcoin
219 2011-09-04 14:14:38 <lfm> I think someone said they got a statement of some sort from a tax expert for it
220 2011-09-04 14:15:15 <mabus> tax expert = tax avoidance expert?
221 2011-09-04 14:15:38 <lfm> dunno if it was a real lawyer or an irs agent or what
222 2011-09-04 15:40:05 <forrestv> jgarzik, p2pool's first block with transactions: http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000002436bd2ae60d67d6fc0dce44deba2ad739619a3d364f6283e64 :P
223 2011-09-04 15:44:16 <luke-jr> forrestv: yeah, I saw that :x
224 2011-09-04 15:44:38 <luke-jr> forrestv: thanks to p2pool, I'm gonna have to make ljrbot more smart on picking which blocks to announce in #Eligius :P
225 2011-09-04 15:44:57 <forrestv> oh, i wish i'd seen that, haha
226 2011-09-04 15:45:15 <forrestv> what, before you had a rule to exclude them if they don't contain any additional transactions?
227 2011-09-04 15:45:35 <luke-jr> no
228 2011-09-04 15:45:45 <luke-jr> it's not a new problem
229 2011-09-04 15:45:58 <luke-jr> p2pool just doesn't find blocks often enough that it's made me fix it yet
230 2011-09-04 15:46:00 <luke-jr> :P
231 2011-09-04 15:46:10 <luke-jr> [12:40:57] <ljrbot> Blk 00000000000002436bd2ae60d67d6fc0dce44deba2ad739619a3d364f6283e64: 1HzT4B4pkaiYaSXwgCpXskqaqjKzmpxovJ 15.19928753 BTC, 17Ap2DfJd9h7192ZK3aGEZzS1eHZduRZ5w 10.43336182 BTC, 1EprnA7kA8uvUnkhvas1b4iXoDWWVgEHJL 5.39478469 BTC, 1M78kjyqcYChfs4S1kZwwc5Q98bFdHPrRP 5.04366513 BTC, 15KRNqCHN6yjSN9hBB7dt3Lgm1zhJeT4yY
232 2011-09-04 15:46:27 <forrestv> ah, :P
233 2011-09-04 15:54:01 <TD> forrestv: congratulations
234 2011-09-04 15:54:18 <TD> forrestv: hope you get a lot more hashers now
235 2011-09-04 15:54:22 <TD> forrestv: what was your fee on that block?
236 2011-09-04 15:54:25 <TD> feeling rich yet?
237 2011-09-04 15:56:01 <forrestv> TD, my payout from mining is an order of magnitude larger than my 'fee' ... so, no
238 2011-09-04 15:56:51 <forrestv> also, the fee is being revamped into an opt-out donation system :P
239 2011-09-04 15:57:19 <cjdelisle> I was thinking it would be fun to start a p2pool where the fee is optional but if you choose no then you have to pay more to other miners.
240 2011-09-04 15:57:45 <cjdelisle> So your choice is pay 1 unit to the other miners or keep half and give half to the creator.
241 2011-09-04 15:58:01 <cjdelisle> That would create all sorts of fun game theory stuff.
242 2011-09-04 15:58:24 <cjdelisle> You win by paying the fee but the whole pool wins by you not paying the fee.
243 2011-09-04 15:59:43 <phantomcircuit> changes nothing as everybody would pay the fee
244 2011-09-04 16:00:25 <TD> forrestv: cool :-)
245 2011-09-04 16:00:42 <cjdelisle> Ofc you can see from the other microblocks whether or not the other miners opted to pay so if they all did then you would because why should you help them?
246 2011-09-04 16:02:25 <cjdelisle> mm it would end up being a tragity of the commons thing and everyone would end up paying. It would be more interesting if there was a real dillema involved.
247 2011-09-04 16:16:01 <phantomcircuit> AlonzoTG, yeah take everything in bitcoind
248 2011-09-04 16:16:04 <phantomcircuit> and dont do that
249 2011-09-04 16:16:06 <phantomcircuit> :(
250 2011-09-04 16:50:39 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: LOL
251 2011-09-04 16:52:12 <Eliel> phantomcircuit: you mean 0.3.24 or 0.4.0rc1?
252 2011-09-04 16:53:00 <AlonzoTG> I thought 0.4 was supposed to have a build system? I just pulled my git but it still doesn't seem to have it.
253 2011-09-04 16:53:17 <vsrinivas> not yet. the autoconf bits aren't ready.
254 2011-09-04 16:53:30 <vsrinivas> 0.4's big ticket is wallet crypto
255 2011-09-04 16:53:41 <Eliel> there's also a lot of refactoring
256 2011-09-04 16:56:40 <luke-jr> it*
257 2011-09-04 16:57:02 <vsrinivas> luke-jr: github automatically does that;
258 2011-09-04 17:23:39 <luke-jr> vsrinivas: usually a human does it too
259 2011-09-04 17:34:44 <TD> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Smart_Property
260 2011-09-04 17:36:21 <TD> seems the forum is broken though
261 2011-09-04 17:37:13 <luke-jr> "if you own a car, it is probably required to come with an immobilizer."
262 2011-09-04 17:37:16 <luke-jr> wtf is an immobilizer
263 2011-09-04 17:37:20 <soap> LoJack
264 2011-09-04 17:37:39 <TD> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immobiliser
265 2011-09-04 17:37:41 <TD> spelling error
266 2011-09-04 17:37:51 <TD> should be british english :-)
267 2011-09-04 17:38:25 <luke-jr> TD: k, well they're not that common in sane countries that don't mandate crap like this by law
268 2011-09-04 17:38:40 <soap> do any countries mandate such things?
269 2011-09-04 17:38:52 <luke-jr> "Immobilisers have been mandatory in all new cars sold in Germany since 1 January 1998, in the United Kingdom since 1 October 1998, in Finland since 1998, in Australia since 2001 and in Canada since 2007"
270 2011-09-04 17:39:00 <soap> holy shit
271 2011-09-04 17:39:07 <luke-jr> and the Bitcoin page: "if you own a car, it is probably required to come with an immobilizer."
272 2011-09-04 17:39:39 <soap> And nobody has hacked the system yet and used it to attack someone?
273 2011-09-04 17:39:58 <luke-jr> I disagree that Immobilisers have anything to do with this "Smart Property" concept
274 2011-09-04 17:40:07 <soap> oh, this isn't lojack, this is stupid electronic key usage of the word immobilizer.
275 2011-09-04 17:40:20 <luke-jr> immobilisers just stop someone from physically taking property
276 2011-09-04 17:40:21 <soap> Lojack = remote immobilizer.
277 2011-09-04 17:40:38 <TD> yeah, it's just a cryptographic car key, essentially
278 2011-09-04 17:40:45 <TD> except it's usually integrated with a physical key
279 2011-09-04 17:40:46 <soap> This is an electronic key.  My Toyota has that.  Been done cracked years ago.  Worthless.
280 2011-09-04 17:40:59 <TD> well, apparently not, as most car thefts are of cars without them
281 2011-09-04 17:41:09 <JFK911> yeah the immos are rather effective
282 2011-09-04 17:41:14 <TD> these things always go through multiple generations
283 2011-09-04 17:41:20 <JFK911> the japanese ones are garbage but yet its not common for thieves to have these tools
284 2011-09-04 17:41:22 <soap> Going after low-hanging fruit doesn't mean the key is secure.
285 2011-09-04 17:41:33 <TD> given that modern smartcards are virtually unbeatable if you aren't a university or large tech firm, i'm guessing immos can stop most car thieves
286 2011-09-04 17:41:36 <luke-jr> TD: you don't have to outrun the bear, just the slowest of your friends
287 2011-09-04 17:41:51 <TD> good, modern ones anyway.
288 2011-09-04 17:42:12 <JFK911> the immo tags dont really implement cryptography though
289 2011-09-04 17:42:21 <TD> some do
290 2011-09-04 17:42:22 <TD> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immobiliser
291 2011-09-04 17:42:23 <JFK911> they rely on secrets which they usually exchange in the clear
292 2011-09-04 17:42:26 <TD> see the wikipedia article
293 2011-09-04 17:42:45 <TD> older ones just used a static secret in the clear
294 2011-09-04 17:42:54 <TD> these days it's possible to do full crypto on RFID powered circuits
295 2011-09-04 17:43:02 <JFK911> they don't
296 2011-09-04 17:43:05 <soap> the rolling code ones have been falling as well.
297 2011-09-04 17:43:27 <soap> I haven't heard of any honest handshaking ones dying, but I haven't read Bruce's blog for a quarter.
298 2011-09-04 17:44:20 <soap> my immobilizer is disabled by a ghetto remote-ignition package.
299 2011-09-04 17:45:03 <JFK911> what did you do, tape a key under the dash? :)
300 2011-09-04 17:45:18 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r879c2ca1bd56 gentoo/net-p2p/ (18 files in 4 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoind and net-p2p/wxbitcoin: 0.4.0_rc1
301 2011-09-04 17:45:22 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rbac66a82b381 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (10 files): net-p2p/bitcoind: Bump rev on 0.3.* because of bitcoin.init.d changes
302 2011-09-04 18:25:41 <CIA-101> bitcoin: aldiyen * r18fcbd95c03d Phoenix-Miner-personal/WorkQueue.py: When we think we've got work from an old block, unset lastBlock to avoid an indefinitely long repeating getwork call under some circumstances
303 2011-09-04 18:41:00 <xelister> all alternative bitcoins seem destroyed
304 2011-09-04 18:41:08 <JFK911> hooray
305 2011-09-04 18:41:17 <JFK911> i mean
306 2011-09-04 18:41:18 <xelister> actually bitcoin can share same fate one day
307 2011-09-04 18:41:21 <JFK911> told you so lol
308 2011-09-04 18:41:23 <JFK911> of course
309 2011-09-04 18:41:28 <JFK911> it is headed there now
310 2011-09-04 18:41:28 <xelister> destroyed by spike of difficulty
311 2011-09-04 18:41:36 <JFK911> look @ price drop
312 2011-09-04 18:41:42 <JFK911> miners will lose interest soon
313 2011-09-04 18:41:44 <JFK911> and fast
314 2011-09-04 18:41:45 <luke-jr> price hasn't dropped much in a while
315 2011-09-04 18:41:55 <xelister> yea that too. why do you think the price sinks into 8 ?
316 2011-09-04 18:41:56 <JFK911> 2-3 weeks isnt a long time
317 2011-09-04 18:42:05 <luke-jr> JFK911: it is for Bitcoin
318 2011-09-04 18:42:14 <xelister> caused by goxxings?
319 2011-09-04 18:42:22 <xelister> anyway, how about other retargeting algorithm
320 2011-09-04 18:42:41 <cjdelisle> lol
321 2011-09-04 18:42:53 <cjdelisle> thought you said how about other retarded algorithms
322 2011-09-04 18:42:53 <xelister> like - decrease possible ever 10 blocks
323 2011-09-04 18:43:21 <xelister> and if say 6 hours pass without any block - retarget immediatelly
324 2011-09-04 18:43:57 <JFK911> the first thing i'd do is run my clock twice as fgast
325 2011-09-04 18:44:00 <JFK911> *fast
326 2011-09-04 18:44:14 <xelister> rest of network will ignore your blocks same as now this is possible
327 2011-09-04 18:44:27 <luke-jr> JFK911: you can't.
328 2011-09-04 18:44:29 <cjdelisle> yea, you need some way for the network to agree on time and that's not very easy
329 2011-09-04 18:44:38 <JFK911> what cjdelise said
330 2011-09-04 18:44:42 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: network already agrees on time more or less
331 2011-09-04 18:44:43 <JFK911> *cjdelisle
332 2011-09-04 18:44:58 <xelister> we have the same problem now and it is solved
333 2011-09-04 18:45:47 <xelister> is there any good reason to not retarget even each block in emergency e.g. last block took over 3 hours to find
334 2011-09-04 18:45:57 <xelister> and perhaps even without waiting for a block
335 2011-09-04 18:46:17 <cjdelisle> How exactly does it work? the nodes all slap a timestamp on the block and nobody accepts a block if the timestamp is too far askew?
336 2011-09-04 18:46:41 <xelister> JFK911: it is not 2 weeks. ixcoin can take months to retarget, not it has like 1 block per day (x100 slower then it should be)
337 2011-09-04 18:46:48 <xelister> *now
338 2011-09-04 18:47:05 <xelister> cjdelisle: ye
339 2011-09-04 18:47:33 <JFK911> xelister: i meant 2-3 weeks ago btc were $10-$11; $8 is quite a drop
340 2011-09-04 18:47:42 <xelister> oh
341 2011-09-04 18:47:49 <JFK911> lol @ the other blockchains, though
342 2011-09-04 18:49:46 <cjdelisle> perhaps investers went to alt chains?
343 2011-09-04 18:50:19 <cjdelisle> perhaps it's still searching for equilibrium
344 2011-09-04 18:55:55 <sha256trust> I'm looking for the "oldest" version of the bitcoin client code on the net. Like the earliest public revision. I've been to "first commit" on Github, and also found a the first commit on Gitorious, but that's only aug30/2009.
345 2011-09-04 18:56:17 <xelister> sha256trust: seen the svn sources from sf.net ?
346 2011-09-04 18:57:28 <sha256trust> xelister: no, thanks. That seems to be the start.
347 2011-09-04 19:01:16 <xelister> hey homies
348 2011-09-04 19:01:25 <xelister> guys on #namecoin claim merged mining is possible
349 2011-09-04 19:01:27 <xelister> how come?
350 2011-09-04 19:01:42 <xelister> that one hash can at same time try to be a block in namecoin and bitcoin and other -coin.....
351 2011-09-04 19:01:45 <xelister> is that possible?
352 2011-09-04 19:02:12 <xelister> sha256(sha256(data)+nonce) < target,  where   data = hash( your_address + last-block-BTC )  or  data = hash( your_address + last-block-NMC )
353 2011-09-04 19:02:17 <tcatm> xelister: yes (requires some code to be written)
354 2011-09-04 19:02:39 <xelister> how you create data that satisfies both chains at once?   that would mean you can find X,Y so that hash(X+a) = hash(Y+b)  ... so it would mean you can break the hash (sha256 etc)
355 2011-09-04 19:03:00 <xelister> tcatm: on the math theory level, how is that possible? where above deducation that it's impossible is wrong
356 2011-09-04 19:03:06 <gmaxwell> ...
357 2011-09-04 19:03:14 <gmaxwell> xelister: because namecoin changed to make it possible.
358 2011-09-04 19:03:29 <xelister> changed how?
359 2011-09-04 19:03:38 <gmaxwell> xelister: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alternative_Chains
360 2011-09-04 19:03:42 <xelister> they allow to use last BTC block as previous blocK/
361 2011-09-04 19:03:43 <xelister> ?
362 2011-09-04 19:03:59 <gmaxwell> ...
363 2011-09-04 19:04:12 <gmaxwell> How about you quite down and go read a bit, its been extensively documented.
364 2011-09-04 19:05:01 <phantomcircuit> xelister, you simply include the bitcoin block hash in the namecoin header
365 2011-09-04 19:05:06 <xelister> gmaxwell: how about a no
366 2011-09-04 19:05:10 <phantomcircuit> then keep the namecoin header very low
367 2011-09-04 19:05:33 <xelister> phantomcircuit: ah so I guessed correctly =) yupie.
368 2011-09-04 19:05:40 <orkaa> Hi, I'm having problems connecting to the network
369 2011-09-04 19:05:48 <orkaa> using the latest linux version
370 2011-09-04 19:05:51 <orkaa> on 64bit debian
371 2011-09-04 19:06:08 <orkaa> it's just this all over the place: trying connection 64.22.103.150:8333 lastseen=-365325.1hrs lasttry=-365325.1hrs
372 2011-09-04 19:06:09 <phantomcircuit> orkaa, you mean you dont get 8 connections or that you dont get blocks
373 2011-09-04 19:06:19 <phantomcircuit> orkaa, the same ip?
374 2011-09-04 19:06:21 <orkaa> I get zero connections
375 2011-09-04 19:06:30 <orkaa> phantomcircuit: no, many different
376 2011-09-04 19:06:33 <orkaa> but the fun part is
377 2011-09-04 19:06:45 <orkaa> if I try to connect to those ips manually with telnet
378 2011-09-04 19:06:48 <orkaa> it works!
379 2011-09-04 19:06:48 <phantomcircuit> orkaa, the default timeout is 500 ms
380 2011-09-04 19:06:52 <xelister> orkaa: are you about some evil firewall
381 2011-09-04 19:06:54 <phantomcircuit> oh
382 2011-09-04 19:07:13 <phantomcircuit> orkaa, that's an odd error
383 2011-09-04 19:07:33 <orkaa> yep, and its been like this for ~8 hours
384 2011-09-04 19:07:53 <orkaa> any ideas?
385 2011-09-04 19:08:04 <phantomcircuit> which version are you using
386 2011-09-04 19:08:40 <orkaa> bitcoin-0.3.24/bin/64$ ./bitcoind
387 2011-09-04 19:09:32 <xelister> the wiki tried to make Nakamoto sounds like an actuall real person... cute ^_^
388 2011-09-04 19:11:27 <orkaa> phantomcircuit: I also get:
389 2011-09-04 19:11:28 <orkaa> IRC connect failed
390 2011-09-04 19:11:59 <orkaa> (it went to a few thousand seconds later.. :) )
391 2011-09-04 19:12:07 <phantomcircuit> orkaa, yeah ConnectSocket is failing for some reason
392 2011-09-04 19:13:01 <phantomcircuit> someone tried to make this code clearer and failed i suspect
393 2011-09-04 19:13:46 <orkaa> :)
394 2011-09-04 19:16:21 <phantomcircuit> orkaa, you wouldn't happen to have selinux on would you?
395 2011-09-04 19:16:32 <orkaa> phantomcircuit: no
396 2011-09-04 19:16:48 <orkaa> phantomcircuit: forgot to tell you, it worked when I first started the client
397 2011-09-04 19:16:55 <orkaa> it gathered around 45k blocks
398 2011-09-04 19:17:06 <phantomcircuit> so what's changed since then?
399 2011-09-04 19:17:14 <orkaa> _nothing_
400 2011-09-04 19:17:26 <orkaa> it was like, ctrl + c, arrow up, enter
401 2011-09-04 19:18:12 <xelister> maybe your OS does something strange.. try rebooting and so on? other p2p applications work fine?
402 2011-09-04 19:18:46 <orkaa> everything else is working just fine
403 2011-09-04 19:19:02 <orkaa> as I said, I can connect to the nodes manually
404 2011-09-04 19:19:10 <orkaa> just not through the client
405 2011-09-04 19:21:04 <phantomcircuit> lol the windows code here is just wrong
406 2011-09-04 19:21:22 <phantomcircuit> wait
407 2011-09-04 19:21:31 <phantomcircuit> right #define WSAGetLAstError
408 2011-09-04 19:21:34 <phantomcircuit> i hate that shit
409 2011-09-04 19:21:44 <orkaa> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=34066.0
410 2011-09-04 19:21:51 <orkaa> maybe this guy if affected :)
411 2011-09-04 19:21:55 <orkaa> is*
412 2011-09-04 19:22:54 <orkaa> at least his client joins irc
413 2011-09-04 19:22:55 <phantomcircuit> is that about when it stopped working for you as well?
414 2011-09-04 19:23:18 <orkaa> phantomcircuit: no, I installed it today
415 2011-09-04 19:23:25 <phantomcircuit> interesting
416 2011-09-04 19:24:45 <phantomcircuit> no idea
417 2011-09-04 19:24:55 <phantomcircuit> probably some kind of threading deadlock
418 2011-09-04 19:58:57 <iocor> while trying to graph every bitcoin transaction: a malloc call trying to allocate 18446744070129922048 bytes of ram failed....
419 2011-09-04 20:01:52 <soap> lol
420 2011-09-04 20:12:54 <luke-jr> iocor: been there, done that
421 2011-09-04 20:35:40 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * raf0026bf99e6 cgminer/adl.c: Change default hysteresis to 3 degrees for lower average fanspeeds.
422 2011-09-04 20:35:43 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * rf92a49fac0e0 cgminer/adl.c: Limit fanspeed to 85% properly when temperature is below overheat levels.
423 2011-09-04 20:52:00 <midnightmagic> i haven't been specifically following bug reports on bitcoind for a little while. is the github version head okay to run in production atm/
424 2011-09-04 20:52:35 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: by definition, head is going to be relatively untested
425 2011-09-04 20:52:52 <midnightmagic> yeah but any known bugs right now? like problems?
426 2011-09-04 20:52:57 <midnightmagic> i have no issue running untested code.
427 2011-09-04 20:53:13 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: yes
428 2011-09-04 20:53:13 <midnightmagic> but i'd prefer to avoid known flashing construction signs where possible. :)
429 2011-09-04 20:53:30 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: there's a laundry list of issues in 0.4.0_rc1
430 2011-09-04 20:55:05 <luke-jr> ;;bc,blocks
431 2011-09-04 20:55:06 <gribble> 143967
432 2011-09-04 20:55:17 <luke-jr> 62 connections and only 143963
433 2011-09-04 20:55:18 <luke-jr> :o
434 2011-09-04 20:59:09 <midnightmagic> interesting...
435 2011-09-04 21:00:17 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: deadlocks
436 2011-09-04 21:00:48 <midnightmagic> i thought those were all fixed back when Art did his audits?
437 2011-09-04 21:01:06 <jrmithdobbs> nope
438 2011-09-04 21:01:06 <midnightmagic> must be new ones.
439 2011-09-04 21:01:16 <jrmithdobbs> gavin reworked the locking code
440 2011-09-04 21:01:36 <midnightmagic> gah, and this introduced new locking problems or did it just expose old ones that weren't clear before?
441 2011-09-04 21:02:09 <jrmithdobbs> yes
442 2011-09-04 21:02:27 <midnightmagic> so both then. brutal.
443 2011-09-04 21:05:40 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * r2b9522b73298 cgminer/adl.c: Remove the safety checks in speed setting since confirmation is done first in the menu, then show the new current values after a short pause.
444 2011-09-04 21:10:30 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: seems there were new ones since 0.3.20
445 2011-09-04 21:10:38 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: gavin fixed those, but missed a couple I guess
446 2011-09-04 21:14:44 <wardearia> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41456.new#new
447 2011-09-04 22:12:58 <wardearia> It would be AWESOME if bitcoin.org showed developers/contributors similarly to http://git-scm.com/about (yay for suggestion at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41456.msg505026#msg505026)
448 2011-09-04 22:13:21 <wardearia> Including showing number of commits next to each name
449 2011-09-04 22:22:32 <luke-jr> wardearia: maybe for a dedicated page, but not for the small area on the frontpage
450 2011-09-04 22:22:43 <luke-jr> wardearia: also, that's very much single-project oriented
451 2011-09-04 22:22:50 <luke-jr> whereas Bitcoin is a community/distributed thing
452 2011-09-04 22:35:52 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * rc49106c6d894 cgminer/ (adl.c miner.h): Force the speed to high on startup and restore it to whatever the setting was on exit.
453 2011-09-04 22:35:54 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * r7767458e2756 cgminer/main.c: Add temperature to standard output where possible and use more compact output.
454 2011-09-04 22:50:17 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rb2255e038683 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (11 files): net-p2p/bitcoind: Bump rev on 0.3.* because of bitcoin.init.d changes
455 2011-09-04 23:05:47 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas adl_support * r417223fd6550 cgminer/main.c: Move and print at the same time in curses to avoid random trampling display errors.