1 2012-01-11 00:04:28 <denisx> what are the news for 0.5.2?
  2 2012-01-11 00:04:54 <luke-jr> denisx: waiting on Gavin
  3 2012-01-11 00:04:57 <luke-jr> for a Mac build
  4 2012-01-11 00:05:06 <denisx> luke-jr: no, I meant the changes
  5 2012-01-11 00:05:09 <luke-jr> also, I think he's the only one with access to upload it to SF
  6 2012-01-11 00:05:11 <luke-jr> oh
  7 2012-01-11 00:05:25 <luke-jr> connections over the internet when Bitcoin is being used with Tor (identity leak).[/li][li]Re-enable SSL support for the JSON-RPC interface (it was unintentionally disabled for the 0.5.0 and 0.5.1 release Linux binaries).[/li][li]Use the correct base transaction fee of 0.0005 BTC for accepting transactions into mined blocks (since 0.4.0, it was incorrectly accepting 0.0001 BTC which was only meant to be relayed).[/li][li]Don't show
  8 2012-01-11 00:05:26 <luke-jr> "IP" for transactions which are not necessarily IP transactions.[/li][li]Add new DNS seeds (maintained by Pieter Wuille and Luke Dashjr).[/li][/list]
  9 2012-01-11 00:05:28 <luke-jr> <.<
 10 2012-01-11 00:05:39 <sipa> denisx: 0.5.x is just bugfixes; we're working on 0.6 in the mean time
 11 2012-01-11 00:05:46 <denisx> ah, ok
 12 2012-01-11 00:14:17 <sytse> luke-jr: so, you're waiting on gavins go signal to tag the repo? Which revision is probably going to be v0.5.2?
 13 2012-01-11 00:14:29 <luke-jr> sytse: no, it's tagged.
 14 2012-01-11 00:14:41 <luke-jr> commit 7de7913abdbaa30f0ef6ad1b63508d3a8441d08f
 15 2012-01-11 00:14:47 <sytse> not in git://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git
 16 2012-01-11 00:14:55 <luke-jr> yeah, that's the development repo
 17 2012-01-11 00:14:59 <luke-jr> gotta pull from the stable repo
 18 2012-01-11 00:15:07 <sytse> what's the stable repo?
 19 2012-01-11 00:15:19 <luke-jr> https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/bitcoind-stable/
 20 2012-01-11 00:15:23 <luke-jr> git://gitorious.org/+bitcoin-stable-developers/bitcoin/bitcoind-stable.git
 21 2012-01-11 00:15:45 <sytse> ah, thx
 22 2012-01-11 00:15:46 <luke-jr> be sure to pull with --tags if you want those
 23 2012-01-11 00:25:28 <sytse> no cryptographically signed tag? Not good, luke-jr :P
 24 2012-01-11 00:25:45 <luke-jr> sytse: meh, does it really matter?
 25 2012-01-11 00:25:51 <luke-jr> I guess I can sign the next one
 26 2012-01-11 00:26:06 <luke-jr> but I mean, people are going to be auditing the code anyway&
 27 2012-01-11 00:27:00 <sytse> people auditing the code doesn't matter if you have no cryptographic proof they're talking about the same code ;-)
 28 2012-01-11 00:27:11 <sipa> git provides that proof
 29 2012-01-11 00:27:38 <sipa> as commit ids are cryptographic hashes of the tree history
 30 2012-01-11 00:27:42 <sytse> sure, but in that case, you'd need to say  Main: http://bitcoin.org/ | Wiki: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/ | Latest version: 0.5.1 *OLD VERSIONS HARM THE NETWORK AND YOUR SECURITY* | Bitcoin Development - We're here to help develop the Bitcoin system. All related discussions are welcome. | If you have a question, si
 31 2012-01-11 00:27:47 <sytse> 00:45:35 -!- diki [~dikidera@46.40.126.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
 32 2012-01-11 00:27:50 <sytse> 00:48:31 -!- toffoo [~tof@189.60.1.42] has joined #bitcoin-dev
 33 2012-01-11 00:27:52 <sytse> uh
 34 2012-01-11 00:27:53 <sytse> instead of v0.5.2
 35 2012-01-11 00:27:56 <sytse> 7de7913abdbaa30f0ef6ad1b63508d3a8441d08f
 36 2012-01-11 00:28:00 <sytse> because 'v0.5.2' means nothing
 37 2012-01-11 00:28:04 <sipa> true
 38 2012-01-11 00:28:05 <phantomcircuit> sipa, hello
 39 2012-01-11 00:28:27 <sipa> hi, phantomcircuit
 40 2012-01-11 00:29:48 <luke-jr> sytse: so I really need to re-tag this one for you? :p
 41 2012-01-11 00:31:58 <phantomcircuit> sipa, do you know the reasoning behind using seed nodes for all tor clients?
 42 2012-01-11 00:32:12 <sipa> hmm?
 43 2012-01-11 00:32:25 <phantomcircuit> if (mapAddresses.empty() && (GetTime() - nStart > 60 || fTor) && !fTestNet)
 44 2012-01-11 00:32:32 <phantomcircuit> net.cpp:1264
 45 2012-01-11 00:32:49 <sipa> i guess because they can't use dnsseeds?
 46 2012-01-11 00:33:03 <phantomcircuit> ok
 47 2012-01-11 00:33:10 <phantomcircuit> i'll add support for the tor dns resolver
 48 2012-01-11 00:33:14 <phantomcircuit> so that they can
 49 2012-01-11 00:40:51 <CIA-100> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Stefan Thomas master * r1a7fc9d / (13 files in 2 dirs): Fixed indents. - http://git.io/I_C19w https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib/commit/1a7fc9d063f864058809d06ef4542af40be3558f
 50 2012-01-11 00:45:24 <sytse> luke-jr: not for me, I was just teasing you :P
 51 2012-01-11 00:52:24 <sytse> so, now I'm running the official 0.5.2 version.. too bad it still says it's '0.5.2-beta'
 52 2012-01-11 00:53:13 <phantomcircuit> :)
 53 2012-01-11 00:53:54 <sipa> sytse: all versions below 1.0 will be beta
 54 2012-01-11 00:54:34 <sytse> oh ok
 55 2012-01-11 00:54:56 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: ptmhd opened issue 754 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/754>
 56 2012-01-11 00:55:06 <sytse> so a release is indistinguishable from an rc in terms of version number
 57 2012-01-11 00:55:46 <sipa> well, if the release candidate is good, it becomes the release :)
 58 2012-01-11 00:56:05 <sytse> whoops.
 59 2012-01-11 00:56:06 <luke-jr> sytse: yes, RCs become final by renaming them ;)
 60 2012-01-11 00:56:12 <sytse> that new issue sounds like a fail
 61 2012-01-11 00:56:27 <luke-jr> sytse: nah, it's known
 62 2012-01-11 00:56:45 <sytse> bit silly
 63 2012-01-11 00:57:05 <sytse> although then again, we don't have a trusted timestamp in blocks do we?
 64 2012-01-11 00:57:14 <luke-jr> sytse: the problem is, the inverse is a bug for those running the client when the txn is sent
 65 2012-01-11 00:58:43 <sytse> hm?
 66 2012-01-11 00:58:59 <sytse> just taking the timestamp of the block wouldn't cause too much trouble right?
 67 2012-01-11 00:59:05 <phantomcircuit> so
 68 2012-01-11 00:59:06 <luke-jr> yes, it did
 69 2012-01-11 00:59:11 <phantomcircuit> can i use apache license code?
 70 2012-01-11 00:59:11 <sytse> hmm
 71 2012-01-11 00:59:14 <luke-jr> issue 754 was caused by a bugfix
 72 2012-01-11 00:59:25 <sytse> ah.. where have I seen that before
 73 2012-01-11 00:59:26 <sytse> oh wait
 74 2012-01-11 00:59:28 <sytse> yesterday
 75 2012-01-11 00:59:30 <sytse> at work >:-)
 76 2012-01-11 01:00:08 <sytse> (bug caused by a 'bugfix' by just removing the code that crashes..)
 77 2012-01-11 01:00:10 <phantomcircuit> anybody?
 78 2012-01-11 01:00:23 <sipa> phantomcircuit: for?
 79 2012-01-11 01:00:33 <phantomcircuit> base32 encoding
 80 2012-01-11 01:00:47 <sytse> to put in the main bitcoin source tree?
 81 2012-01-11 01:01:05 <phantomcircuit> i'll use it for now and we can substitute something else later
 82 2012-01-11 01:01:09 <sipa> not sure how compatible it is with MIT; but that doesn't sound too hard to reimplement if necessary
 83 2012-01-11 01:01:19 <sipa> we already have self-written base64 code
 84 2012-01-11 01:01:45 <sytse> why would you want base32 anyway..
 85 2012-01-11 01:01:48 <luke-jr> Apache license might be a problem
 86 2012-01-11 01:02:05 <sytse> for making it easier to write down hashes?
 87 2012-01-11 01:02:18 <sipa> sytse: onion addresses
 88 2012-01-11 01:02:19 <phantomcircuit> sytse, tor .onion addresses
 89 2012-01-11 01:02:24 <sytse> ah
 90 2012-01-11 01:02:33 <sytse> that makes sense
 91 2012-01-11 01:02:47 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: if it's that extreme, please wrap Tor code in #ifdef USE_TOR
 92 2012-01-11 01:03:08 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, we'd just need to implement it ourselves
 93 2012-01-11 01:03:11 <phantomcircuit> it's fairly simple
 94 2012-01-11 01:03:14 <phantomcircuit> im just being lazy
 95 2012-01-11 01:03:23 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: I don't want the dead code
 96 2012-01-11 01:03:45 <sipa> phantomcircuit: so, basically you're changing the Lookup function to a) if it's an onion address, return the onioncat-wrapped-ipv6 address, and otherwise, if tor is in use, send it to tor for lookup?
 97 2012-01-11 01:04:07 <phantomcircuit> im going to do two things
 98 2012-01-11 01:04:11 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: are you parsing or printing?
 99 2012-01-11 01:04:30 <phantomcircuit> easiest is to listen on 127.0.0.1 when using tor so you can have hidden service connections forwarded
100 2012-01-11 01:05:03 <sipa> phantomcircuit: you'll also need to make sure that IsRoutable() allows those addresses
101 2012-01-11 01:05:17 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: are you parsing or printing?
102 2012-01-11 01:05:28 <phantomcircuit> just parsing to encode as ipv6
103 2012-01-11 01:05:40 <phantomcircuit> second is to set addrLocalHost to the ipv6 encoded hidden service address
104 2012-01-11 01:05:44 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah i figured
105 2012-01-11 01:05:49 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: C then
106 2012-01-11 01:05:58 <luke-jr> since C89
107 2012-01-11 01:06:07 <luke-jr> long int strtol(const char *nptr, char Qendptr, int base);
108 2012-01-11 01:06:12 <phantomcircuit> i have no idea what you're talking about
109 2012-01-11 01:06:18 <luke-jr> man strtol
110 2012-01-11 01:06:21 <luke-jr> it's standard C
111 2012-01-11 01:06:27 <luke-jr> it can parse base 32
112 2012-01-11 01:06:49 <sipa> luke-jr: base32 is a bit more complex than just what that function does
113 2012-01-11 01:06:59 <luke-jr> sipa: Tor uses a non-standard base32?
114 2012-01-11 01:07:15 <denisx> base32 does not use I and O
115 2012-01-11 01:07:30 <denisx> no, it does not use 0 and 1
116 2012-01-11 01:07:30 <phantomcircuit> https://code.google.com/p/google-authenticator/source/browse/libpam/base32.c
117 2012-01-11 01:07:31 <luke-jr> lame
118 2012-01-11 01:07:34 <sipa> no, but RFC4648 base32 is not just 0123456789+alpha
119 2012-01-11 01:07:40 <phantomcircuit> 018
120 2012-01-11 01:07:54 <sytse> base32 sounds ridiculously easy to implement, even compared to base64
121 2012-01-11 01:07:56 <phantomcircuit> im going to use that for now
122 2012-01-11 01:08:30 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: please don't :P
123 2012-01-11 01:08:44 <luke-jr> or whatever, we can just swap it before merge
124 2012-01-11 01:08:44 <phantomcircuit> it's easy to replace
125 2012-01-11 01:09:17 <luke-jr> can't ParseHex be made to work with any base easily?
126 2012-01-11 01:17:51 <phantomcircuit> if (fUseProxy || mapArgs.count("-connect") || fNoListen)
127 2012-01-11 01:18:03 <phantomcircuit> if you supply -connect addrLocalHost is set to 0.0.0.0 ?
128 2012-01-11 01:18:07 <phantomcircuit> that doesn't make sense
129 2012-01-11 01:20:16 <forrestv> phantomcircuit, if you're only making one outgoing connection, the local address is irrelevant
130 2012-01-11 01:20:32 <forrestv> so no point in divulging it... you might be trying to tunnel it or something?
131 2012-01-11 01:20:39 <phantomcircuit> except that doesn't set fNoListen
132 2012-01-11 01:20:46 <phantomcircuit> so you're still listening
133 2012-01-11 01:21:02 <forrestv> ah, i assumed -connect did
134 2012-01-11 01:22:22 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: -connect is supposed to be "just connect one place and be done"
135 2012-01-11 01:22:29 <luke-jr> advertising your IP solicits more connections
136 2012-01-11 01:22:39 <luke-jr> you MIGHT still want to listen for people who know your IP anyway
137 2012-01-11 01:22:47 <phantomcircuit> hmm i guess
138 2012-01-11 01:23:02 <phantomcircuit> seems like a lot of these should be their own tunables
139 2012-01-11 01:25:23 <luke-jr> in this case, it makes sense IMO
140 2012-01-11 01:49:46 <phantomcircuit> sytse, was that an offer to implement? :)
141 2012-01-11 01:51:51 <phantomcircuit> where are the obj/nogui/*.P files from?
142 2012-01-11 01:52:41 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: make
143 2012-01-11 01:52:54 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: ParseHex could easily be made general
144 2012-01-11 02:00:51 <afmatt> Hey ya'll - trying to setup a linux miner for the first time after a miserable failure at it last night. Getting the following error when trying to mine deepbit - " JSON-RPC call failed: {    "code": -1,    "message": "Deepbit.lib.InfoException: wrong login or password:" The username and PW for the worker are correct, any idea why it could be throwing this error? Command I'm running is "./minerd --threads $cpus --algo sse2_64 --u
145 2012-01-11 02:01:14 <luke-jr> afmatt: don't mine deepbit :P
146 2012-01-11 02:01:30 <luke-jr> also, minerdG?
147 2012-01-11 02:01:47 <afmatt> Deepbit having issues?
148 2012-01-11 02:01:58 <luke-jr> afmatt: DeepBit is too big
149 2012-01-11 02:02:05 <luke-jr> afmatt: #Eligius
150 2012-01-11 02:03:17 <doublec> afmatt: luke-jr neglects to mention he runs eligius
151 2012-01-11 02:03:26 <doublec> afmatt: and may be biased :)
152 2012-01-11 02:03:30 <luke-jr> doublec: everyone knows that :P
153 2012-01-11 02:04:04 <afmatt> Haha - I didn't but hey, I'm not opposed to running a different pool, understand the "too big" argument and actually agree w/ it
154 2012-01-11 02:04:55 <afmatt> haha
155 2012-01-11 02:05:12 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr maintree * r620baabfe8ac gentoo/net-p2p/ (11 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into maintree http://tinyurl.com/74zgkr8
156 2012-01-11 02:05:20 <luke-jr> you sound liek you're trying to CPU mine ;)
157 2012-01-11 02:05:33 <doublec> luke-jr: wouldn't you like a few thousand cpu  miners in your pool?
158 2012-01-11 02:05:42 <luke-jr> doublec: honestly, not really -.-
159 2012-01-11 02:05:46 <doublec> hehe
160 2012-01-11 02:07:44 <denisx> I have a botnet with thousands of cpu miners in my pool
161 2012-01-11 02:08:05 <denisx> that motivated me to speed up my pool
162 2012-01-11 02:08:18 <denisx> and I did! ;)
163 2012-01-11 02:08:36 <phantomcircuit> init.cpp:AppInit is still being used right?
164 2012-01-11 02:09:33 <phantomcircuit> nvm
165 2012-01-11 02:21:05 <yurtiskrol> wttup homiez
166 2012-01-11 02:21:44 <sytse> phantomcircuit: maybe later :P
167 2012-01-11 02:28:19 <phantomcircuit> bleh there is an incompatibility between this base32 and the onion cat base32
168 2012-01-11 02:28:44 <phantomcircuit> 88B6D779741BF8ECBCF6 vs 000000A8B6D779741BF8ECBCF6
169 2012-01-11 02:28:47 <phantomcircuit> so close
170 2012-01-11 02:29:23 <phantomcircuit> 10001000 10101000
171 2012-01-11 02:29:46 <luke-jr> lol
172 2012-01-11 02:30:28 <phantomcircuit> that's for rc3no6ludp4ozphw.onion btw
173 2012-01-11 02:31:50 <yurtiskrol> what is it? cp?
174 2012-01-11 02:32:25 <phantomcircuit> it will be a bitcoin node
175 2012-01-11 02:33:00 <yurtiskrol> cool
176 2012-01-11 02:33:40 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: does Tor support anycast?
177 2012-01-11 02:33:54 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, no
178 2012-01-11 02:34:11 <phantomcircuit> well
179 2012-01-11 02:34:14 <phantomcircuit> yes and no
180 2012-01-11 02:34:19 <phantomcircuit> the default client does not
181 2012-01-11 02:34:30 <phantomcircuit> but you could add support for it if you wanted
182 2012-01-11 02:34:43 <lianj> ruby -e 'p "rc3no6ludp4ozphw".to_i(32).to_s(32)' # meh
183 2012-01-11 02:34:52 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: lame
184 2012-01-11 02:35:16 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, out of the box it supports failover for hidden services
185 2012-01-11 02:35:22 <phantomcircuit> but you're talking like an hour to fail over
186 2012-01-11 02:35:26 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: not the same thing
187 2012-01-11 02:35:31 <phantomcircuit> yeah i know
188 2012-01-11 02:35:46 <luke-jr> anyone should be able to listen to an anycast address
189 2012-01-11 02:45:51 <lianj> phantomcircuit: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/gBCTELQxAPgWJ3TUsfMl/
190 2012-01-11 02:46:19 <phantomcircuit> lianj, cool now write it in c++
191 2012-01-11 02:46:31 <lianj> no, thats your choice :P
192 2012-01-11 02:47:17 <phantomcircuit> what is that?
193 2012-01-11 02:47:18 <phantomcircuit> go?
194 2012-01-11 02:47:41 <lianj> ruby
195 2012-01-11 02:49:59 <luke-jr> must die
196 2012-01-11 03:43:51 <afmatt> Anyone wanting to make a few bucks please check out this bitcoin related job on freelancer.com, need some help with setup and willing to pay to not have to deal with it. http://www.freelancer.com/projects/PHP-Javascript/Setup-bitcoin-mining-linux-server.html
197 2012-01-11 04:28:30 <phantomcircuit> sipa, if you were wondering the onioncat base32 encoding is wrong
198 2012-01-11 05:20:06 <kiba> gits
199 2012-01-11 05:20:09 <kiba> hey guys
200 2012-01-11 05:57:11 <phantomcircuit> sipa, uh am i losing my mind or is the 16 byte field the network uses not large enough for ipv6? (128/8 == 25)
201 2012-01-11 05:57:15 <phantomcircuit> ;;seen sipa
202 2012-01-11 05:57:16 <gribble> sipa was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 hours, 49 minutes, and 41 seconds ago: <sipa> no, but RFC4648 base32 is not just 0123456789+alpha
203 2012-01-11 06:04:36 <Graet> 8x25==200 check maths phantomcircuit :P
204 2012-01-11 06:04:43 <phantomcircuit> nvm
205 2012-01-11 06:04:47 <phantomcircuit> calculator set to hex
206 2012-01-11 06:04:59 <phantomcircuit> derp
207 2012-01-11 06:05:15 <Graet> hehe, i noticed without calculator :P
208 2012-01-11 06:05:29 <phantomcircuit> i cant do simple maths in my head
209 2012-01-11 06:05:33 <phantomcircuit> no idea why
210 2012-01-11 06:05:50 <cjdelisle> haha I been there
211 2012-01-11 06:06:24 <afmatt> Anyone wanting to make a few bucks please check out this bitcoin related job on freelancer.com, need some help with setup and willing to pay to not have to deal with it. http://www.freelancer.com/projects/PHP-Javascript/Setup-bitcoin-mining-linux-server.html - had a couple offers on chat that may work out but still looking
212 2012-01-11 06:10:29 <phantomcircuit> afmatt, why would anybody want to do that
213 2012-01-11 06:11:33 <afmatt> phantomcircuit: because they have access to the boxes already and want to make use of them
214 2012-01-11 06:11:59 <phantomcircuit> amazons gpu boxes are pay per usage
215 2012-01-11 06:12:09 <phantomcircuit> the only way it makes sense to do that is if you're not paying
216 2012-01-11 06:14:09 <Graet> or if u prepaid, have time left but project finished?
217 2012-01-11 06:15:16 <afmatt> I have access to one and possibly many more down the road
218 2012-01-11 06:22:06 <phantomcircuit> afmatt, lets say you have the cheapest GPU instance possible at $0.494 per hour
219 2012-01-11 06:23:25 <afmatt> phantomcircuit: Lets say I got the biggest instance GPU for free
220 2012-01-11 06:23:44 <phantomcircuit> there is no way to prepay for time like that
221 2012-01-11 06:23:59 <phantomcircuit> you can prepay for lower hourly rates
222 2012-01-11 06:34:02 <Diablo-D3> hahahaha
223 2012-01-11 06:34:05 <Diablo-D3> I totally broke something
224 2012-01-11 06:34:21 <Diablo-D3> Im getting 1.3ghash on my 5850
225 2012-01-11 06:35:21 <Diablo-D3> and its producing valid shares AND not hw erros
226 2012-01-11 06:38:55 <Diablo-D3> aww I fixed it :<
227 2012-01-11 06:44:08 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, figure out what you did and you'll be rich
228 2012-01-11 06:44:10 <phantomcircuit> :)
229 2012-01-11 06:44:26 <Diablo-D3> I accidently calculated the same thing multiple times and the compiler squashed it
230 2012-01-11 06:44:32 <Diablo-D3> so instead of four uints, it was 1.
231 2012-01-11 08:42:44 <CIA-100> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Stefan Thomas master * rde21042 / src/script.js : Fixes for Script.getInType and Script.simpleInPubKey. - http://git.io/AMxW8A https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib/commit/de21042bb75664df49213873a47ddac47f6a2655
232 2012-01-11 10:14:34 <davout> o hai
233 2012-01-11 10:18:03 <UukGoblin> oh, davout, nice to see you :-)
234 2012-01-11 10:18:09 <davout> :)
235 2012-01-11 10:18:18 <UukGoblin> are you awfully rich yet?
236 2012-01-11 10:18:38 <davout> haha no, i sold most of my coins when they were < 3$
237 2012-01-11 10:19:05 <UukGoblin> :-(
238 2012-01-11 10:19:19 <UukGoblin> I sold a tiny portion when they were $30
239 2012-01-11 10:19:28 <UukGoblin> should have sold more ;-[
240 2012-01-11 10:19:35 <davout> it's ok, i get to work fulltime on bitcoin now, and thats what a geeks life is all about
241 2012-01-11 10:19:41 <UukGoblin> ah, awesome
242 2012-01-11 10:19:54 <UukGoblin> I'm considering leaving my current job and doing something more fun
243 2012-01-11 10:20:08 <tcatm> davout: hey. do you still run bitcoincentral?
244 2012-01-11 10:20:10 <UukGoblin> I'm probably going to take a rest from coding though
245 2012-01-11 10:20:42 <davout> tcatm: yea
246 2012-01-11 10:20:57 <davout> all day, every day :D
247 2012-01-11 10:21:32 <davout> UukGoblin: do it, boredom is the only sin for which there is no forgiveness (wilde)
248 2012-01-11 10:22:35 <tcatm> it would be great if you could update the API to match bitcoincharts' new requirements so it can be listed again
249 2012-01-11 10:27:15 <davout> um, yea i'll have a look
250 2012-01-11 10:27:30 <tcatm> http://bitcoincharts.com/about/exchanges/
251 2012-01-11 10:27:39 <davout> i'm really really busy with getting an iphone app out the door but i'll definitely do something
252 2012-01-11 10:28:31 <davout> tcatm: are the attribute names mandatory or can you translate them ?
253 2012-01-11 10:28:39 <tcatm> also if you could email the full trade history for each currencypair in the same format to info@bitcoincharts.com that would be awesome
254 2012-01-11 10:29:54 <tcatm> they are mandatory now. there are just too many exchanges now so I can't have a different parser for each of them
255 2012-01-11 10:37:14 <davout> allright i'll whip something up today
256 2012-01-11 10:37:22 <davout> or tomorrow
257 2012-01-11 10:37:29 <davout> in any case should be in 2012
258 2012-01-11 10:37:36 <davout> ugh, why don't days have 72h
259 2012-01-11 10:37:39 <davout> :D
260 2012-01-11 11:10:35 <the_batman> can someone summarily explain to me how bitcoin will combat economic issues?
261 2012-01-11 11:10:52 <the_batman> I can't make the connection between bitcoin and overthrowing fiat, but I want to
262 2012-01-11 11:12:56 <MacRohard> basically it gets rid of fractional reserve
263 2012-01-11 11:14:04 <JFK911> does it
264 2012-01-11 11:14:08 <TD> the_batman: the argument essentially goes like this. a big chunk of the current economic problems, especially in europe, can be traced to the difficulty of controlling the power of whoever owns the mint
265 2012-01-11 11:14:14 <JFK911> i heard mtgox is fractional
266 2012-01-11 11:14:28 <JFK911> they have to be because they destroyed a bunch of coins with a bad transaction
267 2012-01-11 11:14:41 <MacRohard> they make profits
268 2012-01-11 11:14:49 <TD> if you look at what is happening in europe, basically governments have spent more than they take in via taxes for a long time and funded it with bond sales, which have been bought (largely) by banks, using their ability to 'print money'
269 2012-01-11 11:14:57 <JFK911> hm how is it different to Bank of America then
270 2012-01-11 11:15:01 <TD> JFK911: mt gox has a lot of profit. tux said it came out of that
271 2012-01-11 11:15:07 <JFK911> ah
272 2012-01-11 11:15:08 <MacRohard> they can easily eat a 1000btc loss or whatever it was
273 2012-01-11 11:15:36 <MacRohard> basically noone can run a fractional reserve in btc because there is no central bank to bail them out when they fail
274 2012-01-11 11:15:47 <JFK911> who needs to be bailed out
275 2012-01-11 11:15:53 <JFK911> id love to see someone sue over missing bitcoins
276 2012-01-11 11:15:59 <TD> the_batman: so now there are all kinds of gyrations to try and beat the systems that were put in place to beat profligate money-printing. lending money to banks then publically "suggesting" that they immediately relend it to governments, etc
277 2012-01-11 11:16:00 <JFK911> or get in trouble for stealing htem
278 2012-01-11 11:16:17 <JFK911> didnt stop mybitcoin!
279 2012-01-11 11:16:23 <coderrr> MacRohard, anyone can run a fractional reserve btc bank, but no one can print btc
280 2012-01-11 11:16:43 <MacRohard> coderrr, no one can run one honestly.
281 2012-01-11 11:16:51 <TD> the_batman: if you have something like bitcoin it's a much more robust system. there's no "wiggle room". so governments, businesses etc have to spend money that's actually invested, rather than printed
282 2012-01-11 11:17:00 <coderrr> MacRohard, ?, irrelevant
283 2012-01-11 11:17:22 <MacRohard> not really.
284 2012-01-11 11:17:30 <TD> the_batman: so in theory it should reduce the mis-allocation of resources you get in a highly inflationary system that's fuelled by bank credit
285 2012-01-11 11:17:39 <TD> the_batman: in practice, who knows. likely we will never find out.
286 2012-01-11 11:19:15 <the_batman> c/p into text editor
287 2012-01-11 11:19:17 <the_batman> will read after game
288 2012-01-11 11:19:18 <the_batman> ty
289 2012-01-11 11:19:43 <MacRohard> anyway if you don't keep your btc in a btc bank there's no way for the btc bank to defraud you
290 2012-01-11 11:20:08 <MacRohard> and since there's no central bank to bail them out, it isn't your problem when they inevitably fail and take all their customers down with them
291 2012-01-11 11:42:58 <the_batman> MacRohard, TD, coder, JFK911: what's the end-of-the-day problem of this fractional system? resources are misallocated? how so?
292 2012-01-11 11:43:32 <TD> consider a simple problem that it's important for society to solve convincingly - how do people save for when they are old and retired (pensions)
293 2012-01-11 11:43:45 <the_batman> communism
294 2012-01-11 11:43:50 <the_batman> I mean, save your earnings?
295 2012-01-11 11:44:00 <TD> well, ensure that after a life time of work, you can live well
296 2012-01-11 11:44:05 <the_batman> save up?
297 2012-01-11 11:44:30 <TD> societies current solution to this has a lot of problems. people pay into pension funds. because all currencies today inflate rapidly, the pension fund cannot simply keep the deposits safe and pay them back out when people get older
298 2012-01-11 11:44:49 <TD> instead the funds have to find investments that will at least match, preferably beat inflation over the long run
299 2012-01-11 11:45:03 <the_batman> yes
300 2012-01-11 11:45:19 <TD> this turns out to be very hard. inflation varies a lot. there's no guarantee there are stable, low risk investments that keep pace with inflation at any given time
301 2012-01-11 11:45:29 <TD> it also creates massive pools of wealth that are tempting to raid
302 2012-01-11 11:45:52 <TD> problem (1), pension funds can get into trouble if they calculate risk badly. my parents had a private pension scheme that collapsed.
303 2012-01-11 11:46:01 <the_batman> mm
304 2012-01-11 11:46:20 <the_batman> how does btc solve it?
305 2012-01-11 11:46:22 <TD> problem (2), pension funds often get raided, eg, the UK government is currently planning to "encourage" pension funds to invest in high speed rail links and other projects of questionable return
306 2012-01-11 11:46:31 <the_batman> o.O
307 2012-01-11 11:46:33 <the_batman> sketchy
308 2012-01-11 11:47:16 <TD> the absolutely critical NEED to invest comes from the fact that the currency inflates, and the inflation is compound (speeds up over time). if the currency did not inflate, you could simply save money over your lifespan, and then use those savings when you got older
309 2012-01-11 11:47:39 <TD> it would be a highly predictable form of savings
310 2012-01-11 11:47:40 <coderrr> yea, simply put, to retain your wealth, you have to take risks
311 2012-01-11 11:47:47 <the_batman> hold on now
312 2012-01-11 11:47:49 <TD> indeed. pension funds aren't even enough.
313 2012-01-11 11:47:52 <the_batman> if I wanna retain my personal wealth
314 2012-01-11 11:47:53 <TD> so people invest in houses, etc
315 2012-01-11 11:47:59 <the_batman> can't I just invest in an index fund?
316 2012-01-11 11:48:08 <the_batman> it won't work on a large scale, obviously
317 2012-01-11 11:48:14 <TD> most people are not sophisticated investors. so they tend to follow the herd. hence asset bubbles.
318 2012-01-11 11:48:19 <the_batman> ah
319 2012-01-11 11:48:24 <TD> well you want a solution that works for everyone
320 2012-01-11 11:48:29 <the_batman> (Im not a sophisticatd investor :)
321 2012-01-11 11:48:36 <phantomcircuit> investing in an index fund only works if a few people do it
322 2012-01-11 11:48:44 <phantomcircuit> otherwise you're basically just throwing away money
323 2012-01-11 11:48:50 <TD> consider the perfect solution - people are in control of how much they save for when they are older. it's guaranteed to be there for them, come rain or shine. ideally, their savings keep pace with the general growth in wealth of society
324 2012-01-11 11:48:59 <phantomcircuit> if everybody does it then the companies in the index become flush with cash
325 2012-01-11 11:49:09 <phantomcircuit> and proceed to purchase hookers and blow by the metric ton
326 2012-01-11 11:49:13 <TD> if you have a stable currency, you get that effect. with a fixed quantity of coins in circulation, as the wealth of society grows, each coins becomes worth a little bit more
327 2012-01-11 11:49:34 <TD> this is sometimes labelled "deflation" but that implies the currency shrinks. in fact wealth grows.
328 2012-01-11 11:49:39 <the_batman> I see
329 2012-01-11 11:49:44 <the_batman> what about price level stability?
330 2012-01-11 11:49:49 <coderrr> so the moral is buy index funds and hook or deal drugs on the side
331 2012-01-11 11:49:50 <the_batman> the obvious problem
332 2012-01-11 11:49:51 <TD> so by the time you reach retirement, your savings can still buy you a decent life, even though you saved the coins decades ago
333 2012-01-11 11:50:04 <the_batman> lol
334 2012-01-11 11:50:09 <the_batman> mm
335 2012-01-11 11:50:40 <TD> in theory with a fixed currency pool and growing wealth, prices should drop slightly over time. this matches your intuition that as society gets smarter, bigger, more productive, things should get cheaper
336 2012-01-11 11:51:04 <TD> what we have today is the exact opposite - society gets smarter, bigger and more productive, yet everything gets more and more expensive over time. you keep up by ensuring your employer keeps giving you pay rises
337 2012-01-11 11:51:17 <sipa> hello davout
338 2012-01-11 11:51:34 <sipa> ow, didn't scroll down entirely
339 2012-01-11 11:51:36 <TD> this stops working if the job market changes, or the demand for your skills changes, or anything else happens that causes you to fall behind. hence the technique of imposing "pay freezes" for a few years that of course, after inflation, are really pay cuts.
340 2012-01-11 11:52:07 <TD> now all this assumes a country adopts bitcoins or something like it for a national currency. in practice the  chances of this happening is almost zero.
341 2012-01-11 11:52:21 <TD> so i tend to not worry about macro-economic arguments around bitcoin. see it as an interesting competitor to paypal instead.
342 2012-01-11 11:53:02 <the_batman> hmm
343 2012-01-11 11:53:48 <the_batman> so basically
344 2012-01-11 11:53:51 <the_batman> I get this now
345 2012-01-11 11:53:54 <the_batman> basically what youre saying
346 2012-01-11 11:54:19 <the_batman> is that the government abuses its ability to print money by creating money to serve its own interests at the expensive of currency holders?
347 2012-01-11 11:54:28 <TD> it's more complicated than that
348 2012-01-11 11:54:39 <the_batman> expense*
349 2012-01-11 11:54:55 <TD> in a democracy the interests of government and currency holders are somewhat aligned, given that in most countries most currency holders are citizens. the alignement is very far from perfect of course
350 2012-01-11 11:54:59 <the_batman> who else is in cahoots? I presume that's what you mean by more complicated
351 2012-01-11 11:55:13 <TD> and it's not exactly an "abuse". everyone knows this happens. it's just how the present day system works.
352 2012-01-11 11:55:20 <TD> and yes the mechanisms are obfuscated
353 2012-01-11 11:55:25 <TD> governments don't directly print money any more
354 2012-01-11 11:55:42 <TD> they issue bonds. banks buy the bonds. central banks too, often. both have the ability to create money, under different sets of rules
355 2012-01-11 11:55:44 <the_batman> fucking voernment
356 2012-01-11 11:56:05 <TD> which are constantly shifting, vary by region and are quite difficult to fully understand (some of the mechanisms are recursive and a lot of people have trouble with recursion)
357 2012-01-11 11:56:06 <the_batman> they're hoarding all the money
358 2012-01-11 11:56:13 <the_batman> im angry now
359 2012-01-11 11:56:28 <TD> the intent of these systems is to reduce the power of governments to print money, and those systems were created by ..... governments!
360 2012-01-11 11:56:30 <TD> so don't be too angry
361 2012-01-11 11:56:42 <TD> the people who run governments understand the temptation of owning the mint. that's why we have central banks in the first place.
362 2012-01-11 11:56:56 <the_batman> you dont sound so mad then
363 2012-01-11 11:57:05 <TD> of course "privatizing" the issuance of currency is a rather questionable solution, but before bitcoin was invented there weren't really any better solutions
364 2012-01-11 11:57:15 <TD> there was the gold standard, which was the historical solution
365 2012-01-11 11:57:32 <TD> but it's a pretty bizarre idea, if you think about it. lots of effort is expended to dig gold out of the ground. then it's dumped into another hole in the ground.
366 2012-01-11 11:57:47 <TD> where it acts purely as a limiter. and because gold is so scarce, difficult to divide, etc, you ended up with fractional overcommit
367 2012-01-11 11:57:56 <TD> and eventual collapse of the gold standard (for good reasons)
368 2012-01-11 11:58:06 <the_batman> lol
369 2012-01-11 11:58:08 <TD> these are difficult problems. the bitcoin solution is the best i've seen, but it'd require radical adjustments in society to adopt
370 2012-01-11 11:58:19 <the_batman> youve wholly convinced me against it
371 2012-01-11 11:58:23 <TD> and of course it's very new
372 2012-01-11 11:58:53 <coderrr> what are TD's January investment tips
373 2012-01-11 11:59:02 <the_batman> buy bitcoins
374 2012-01-11 11:59:35 <the_batman> TD thank you
375 2012-01-11 12:01:05 <TD> i don't have any investment tips. i don't see many good investment targets right now
376 2012-01-11 12:01:11 <TD> at least not for low risk investors
377 2012-01-11 12:01:21 <coderrr> :[
378 2012-01-11 12:01:28 <TD> this is part of the problem. right now there is a poverty of convincing investments, but everyone needs to invest anyway
379 2012-01-11 12:01:37 <TD> which is why the housing bubble is still alive and kicking in parts of europe
380 2012-01-11 12:10:17 <CIA-100> bitcoin: p2k * rce7dca9c90f2 ecoinpool/ (12 files in 4 dirs): Share Broker (WiP) and improvements http://tinyurl.com/7ngvw4j
381 2012-01-11 12:38:31 <davout> sipa: hello !
382 2012-01-11 14:05:27 <luke-jr> JFK911: no reason to think MtGox is fractional. they've taken some big losses, but they make that much money every week&
383 2012-01-11 14:07:27 <JFK911> mtgox killed all bitcoin value
384 2012-01-11 14:08:34 <luke-jr> JFK911: quite the contrary
385 2012-01-11 14:13:27 <JFK911> never forget june
386 2012-01-11 14:14:58 <luke-jr> JFK911: never forget that the person responsible is the thief,  not MtGox.
387 2012-01-11 14:16:32 <JFK911> funny.  leave your car unlocked, then call the police when items therein are stolen.  who will the police blame?
388 2012-01-11 14:18:03 <luke-jr> the thief.
389 2012-01-11 14:18:15 <JFK911> wishful thinking
390 2012-01-11 14:18:26 <luke-jr> also, you're ignoring that it was MtGox's old owner that left the car unlocked
391 2012-01-11 14:18:40 <helo> the insurance company may blame you, but the police won't charge you with the loss of your own posessions, they'll charge the theif if they catch him
392 2012-01-11 14:18:41 <luke-jr> and that the current MtGox had already hired someone to install locks
393 2012-01-11 14:18:45 <pierre`> which old owner ?
394 2012-01-11 14:19:05 <luke-jr> Jed McCaleb
395 2012-01-11 14:19:06 <JFK911> helo: the police will tell you you should have locked your car.  and probably won't even come meet you.
396 2012-01-11 14:19:17 <luke-jr> JFK911: no they won't.
397 2012-01-11 14:19:38 <luke-jr> JFK911: I forgot to close the garage door a few years back, and someone stole my wife and I's wallets
398 2012-01-11 14:19:56 <luke-jr> they didn't blame us at all
399 2012-01-11 14:20:11 <luke-jr> you have a right to property even if you don't lock it up
400 2012-01-11 14:20:45 <luke-jr> in fact, you *shouldn't* need to lock it up
401 2012-01-11 14:20:54 <luke-jr> it's only because of today's atheist society that you do
402 2012-01-11 14:21:44 <JFK911> jesus didn't save your wallet
403 2012-01-11 14:21:45 <helo> lol
404 2012-01-11 14:22:57 <pierre`> luke-jr: when you trade currencies (or digital datas), you have to secure your plateform. if you don't, it's your fault. you can't protect your infrastrcture against all threats but you have to mitigate basic threats (like sqli).
405 2012-01-11 14:22:58 <helo> it's only because all of these religious nuts making atheism the only rational mindset
406 2012-01-11 14:23:21 <JFK911> by luke's argument, i could buy a sloppy uranium mine and continue to run it unchanged.  then simply blame the previous owner when everyone in town sues me for polluting the land.
407 2012-01-11 14:24:34 <JFK911> we don't live in utopia, we live with other humans.  that means that if you don't take care of your stuff, you get to experience the tragedy of the commons.
408 2012-01-11 14:28:05 <helo> every crime in a big city is everyone's fault for living in highly populated areas. they could have just moved to a rural area, after all.
409 2012-01-11 14:29:50 <diki> Geniuses!!!
410 2012-01-11 14:29:53 <luke-jr> helo: Catholicism is, and always has been, completely rational
411 2012-01-11 14:29:59 <diki> Someone already wrote software to detect VRM temps
412 2012-01-11 14:30:00 <luke-jr> helo: atheism has never been
413 2012-01-11 14:30:06 <diki> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=10228.0;all
414 2012-01-11 14:30:09 <JFK911> rational?
415 2012-01-11 14:31:14 <JFK911> news flash: child abuse and endless blame are rational
416 2012-01-11 14:31:30 <gmaxwell> This is #bitcoin-dev.
417 2012-01-11 14:31:57 <luke-jr> JFK911: news flash: let's slander the Church for something done by non-Catholic priests
418 2012-01-11 14:32:04 <gmaxwell> Please take the not-even-vaguely-development-related talk elsewhere.
419 2012-01-11 14:35:37 <helo> i propose a patch that causes the source code to magically morph into the body and blood of bitcoin, instead of just compiling it
420 2012-01-11 14:46:01 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: the evidence is piling up against what you say :(
421 2012-01-11 15:09:22 <luke-jr> k9quaint: LOL
422 2012-01-11 15:09:27 <luke-jr> @ forum post
423 2012-01-11 15:30:14 <CIA-100> bitcoin: p2k * r2dad4e4f393d ecoinpool/apps/ (8 files in 4 dirs): Removed unknown SHA256 implementation http://tinyurl.com/7vvdkeg
424 2012-01-11 15:34:23 <devrandom> TD: good morning / evening
425 2012-01-11 15:35:51 <TD> hi
426 2012-01-11 15:36:50 <devrandom> TD: thanks for the serialization feedback
427 2012-01-11 15:37:20 <devrandom> TD: re private key format - are we guaranteed interoperability if we just put the raw private key bytes in there?
428 2012-01-11 15:37:35 <devrandom> (vs ASN.1)
429 2012-01-11 15:39:34 <TD> i think so
430 2012-01-11 15:42:43 <devrandom> TD: I guess ASN.1 encoding is pretty straightforward... it's version, curve, privkey, pubkey
431 2012-01-11 15:42:53 <devrandom> TD: curve seems useful
432 2012-01-11 15:43:15 <TD> it is always the same on bitcoin
433 2012-01-11 15:47:06 <devrandom> TD: okay, I'll remove the ASN.1 but add a version just in case
434 2012-01-11 15:47:37 <TD> maybe a type enum?
435 2012-01-11 15:47:45 <TD> we're more likely to see 'special' keys in future than different curves
436 2012-01-11 15:47:48 <TD> for instance threshold shares
437 2012-01-11 15:47:54 <devrandom> right
438 2012-01-11 15:47:57 <TD> deterministic keys, etc
439 2012-01-11 15:49:59 <devrandom> TD: there's no constructor that takes raw bytes...
440 2012-01-11 15:50:03 <devrandom> I'll create one
441 2012-01-11 16:22:58 <finway> Is TD Nefario?
442 2012-01-11 16:23:03 <TD> no
443 2012-01-11 16:23:55 <finway> Your earlier "deflation is good" elaboration was wonderful!
444 2012-01-11 16:24:29 <finway> Just want to say that.8
445 2012-01-11 16:36:23 <TD> thanks, i guess
446 2012-01-11 16:36:30 <TD> finway: thanks
447 2012-01-11 16:37:01 <finway> So we are going to make a huge split in Feb 15th ?  according to  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56969.0;topicseen
448 2012-01-11 16:37:20 <finway> last time i heard [Tycho] & luke-jr won't support P2SH?
449 2012-01-11 16:40:01 <finway> I think the voting results should be reported to the miners, so miners can choose to support P2SH or not by switching to the righ pools.
450 2012-01-11 16:44:26 <Joric> how are you gonna get 50% of users with that http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/versions.html
451 2012-01-11 16:45:29 <helo> looks like i won't :/
452 2012-01-11 16:47:06 <Joric> there's a plenty of v510 though didn't notice
453 2012-01-11 16:47:35 <Joric> what are those v710 v700 v610 ?
454 2012-01-11 16:55:13 <CIA-100> bitcoin: p2k * r7fb09418b2e2 ecoinpool/ (12 files in 6 dirs): Removed SolidCoin support due to licensing issues http://tinyurl.com/8yx6swp
455 2012-01-11 17:00:39 <finway> And i assume what P2SH is better than OP_EVAL is, P2SH does not cause a chain split ?
456 2012-01-11 17:00:54 <sipa> neither does
457 2012-01-11 17:01:04 <finway> And i assume what makes P2SH better than OP_EVAL is, P2SH does not cause a chain split ?
458 2012-01-11 17:01:15 <sipa> neither does
459 2012-01-11 17:02:20 <finway> Gavin said it does ? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56969.msg685098#msg685098
460 2012-01-11 17:03:07 <diki> Things are getting better and better
461 2012-01-11 17:03:16 <diki> pciutils for windows, ok
462 2012-01-11 17:03:16 <makomk> Both are equally able to cause a chain split.
463 2012-01-11 17:03:24 <diki> mmap wrapper for windows, ok
464 2012-01-11 17:03:39 <diki> If I can make this work, grabbing VRM temps will work on windows as well
465 2012-01-11 17:03:52 <finway> diki:nice
466 2012-01-11 17:04:12 <diki> And if conman finds a way to include it in cgminer, even better
467 2012-01-11 17:09:38 <diki> I hope I can figure how the equivalent of /dev/mem works in windows
468 2012-01-11 17:10:06 <Diablo-D3> well
469 2012-01-11 17:10:09 <Diablo-D3> the short of it is
470 2012-01-11 17:10:20 <Diablo-D3> you have to be running in safe mode to do that
471 2012-01-11 17:10:24 <Diablo-D3> not even administrator can do it
472 2012-01-11 17:10:26 <Diablo-D3> iirc, anyways
473 2012-01-11 17:10:47 <diki> afaik, googling says I dont
474 2012-01-11 17:11:35 <diki> Makes no sense though, cause accessing /dev/mem in linux is easy
475 2012-01-11 17:11:39 <pierce> is there a file descriptor that just lets you map memory in windows?
476 2012-01-11 17:11:54 <pierce> diki: well, these days you aren't supposed to be touching /dev/mem :-)
477 2012-01-11 17:12:04 <Diablo-D3> pierce: mingw has a fake mmap impl
478 2012-01-11 17:12:16 <diki> when you need low level hardware access, one has to
479 2012-01-11 17:13:02 <diki> Diablo-D3:mingw for windows or linux?
480 2012-01-11 17:13:04 <devrandom> TD: new iteration...
481 2012-01-11 17:13:23 <diki> because I am looking at a project of some sorts of mmap wrapper for windows
482 2012-01-11 17:13:36 <Diablo-D3> diki: mingw IS for windows you idiot
483 2012-01-11 17:13:40 <TD> diki: mmap wrapper?
484 2012-01-11 17:13:45 <Diablo-D3> on linux its just a cross comiler
485 2012-01-11 17:13:45 <pierce> for low level hardware access, I think you are supposed to be using a kernel module :-)
486 2012-01-11 17:13:45 <TD> devrandom: looking
487 2012-01-11 17:13:54 <TD> diki: why do you need to wrap mmap?
488 2012-01-11 17:13:58 <Diablo-D3> pierce: which windows doesnt have
489 2012-01-11 17:14:02 <Diablo-D3> even drivers are limited
490 2012-01-11 17:14:13 <Diablo-D3> I mean, its kind of depressing, as for kernels go, NT is pretty well written
491 2012-01-11 17:14:21 <Diablo-D3> its the win32 userland that fucks it up
492 2012-01-11 17:14:35 <Diablo-D3> dont believe me? install unix services for windows
493 2012-01-11 17:14:46 <diki> there is a program for linux called radeonvolt
494 2012-01-11 17:14:48 <Diablo-D3> it uses the NT kernel directly and doesnt use ANY win32 shit
495 2012-01-11 17:14:53 <devrandom> TD: that bitcoinj article is pretty intensive... nice.
496 2012-01-11 17:14:53 <diki> doesnt seem to need any drivers
497 2012-01-11 17:14:59 <diki> but we will see
498 2012-01-11 17:15:04 <Diablo-D3> diki: it uses /dev/mem directly
499 2012-01-11 17:15:05 <devrandom> if anybody is interested: http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-01-2012/120110-bitcoin-for-beginners-3.html
500 2012-01-11 17:15:09 <Diablo-D3> on windows, you just use the existing programs
501 2012-01-11 17:15:13 <Diablo-D3> or libadl
502 2012-01-11 17:15:24 <diki> adl does not expose vrm temp
503 2012-01-11 17:15:29 <Diablo-D3> devrandom: does it mention DiabloMiner?
504 2012-01-11 17:15:34 <Diablo-D3> diki: no, but z-gpu does
505 2012-01-11 17:15:39 <diki> it's gpu-z
506 2012-01-11 17:15:43 <Diablo-D3> whatever
507 2012-01-11 17:15:52 <Diablo-D3> go figure out how gpu-z does it, and then backport it to linux
508 2012-01-11 17:16:02 <Diablo-D3> gpu-z can read lots of vrms radeonvolt cant
509 2012-01-11 17:16:03 <diki> gpu-z use i2c transfers
510 2012-01-11 17:16:07 <diki> *uses
511 2012-01-11 17:17:06 <diki> Diablo-D3:Anything that can be of use, is better than nothing
512 2012-01-11 17:17:18 <diki> adl is good, but when your VRMs fry at 122C, you need to act
513 2012-01-11 17:17:38 <Diablo-D3> 122c isnt fryworthy
514 2012-01-11 17:17:40 <Diablo-D3> 150c is
515 2012-01-11 17:17:55 <diki> lolwut?
516 2012-01-11 17:17:59 <Diablo-D3> 120c is normal for a VRM, especially when the GPU is at 85c.
517 2012-01-11 17:17:59 <diki> I'd rather not risk it
518 2012-01-11 17:18:00 <Diablo-D3> yup
519 2012-01-11 17:18:04 <jrmithdobbs> fix your cooling and ambient monitoring
520 2012-01-11 17:18:14 <Diablo-D3> you know how the maximum temp of a GPU is 120c before it fries?
521 2012-01-11 17:18:18 <jrmithdobbs> they're more useful
522 2012-01-11 17:18:19 <diki> I still have my little program to protect me
523 2012-01-11 17:18:20 <Diablo-D3> its 150c on most VRMs.
524 2012-01-11 17:18:28 <Diablo-D3> but you never want to reach those
525 2012-01-11 17:18:38 <Diablo-D3> so 85c GPU, 120c VRM, 85% fan.
526 2012-01-11 17:18:44 <diki> OR
527 2012-01-11 17:18:45 <devrandom> Diablo-D3: nope... I assume that since Diablo is ready to go thing, it's not as interesting for a programming article
528 2012-01-11 17:18:45 <TD> devrandom: rather than add the enum values together, why not treat it as a bit field
529 2012-01-11 17:18:56 <diki> 55 % fan, 80C GPU, 110C vrm
530 2012-01-11 17:19:13 <Diablo-D3> TD: in what language?
531 2012-01-11 17:19:25 <devrandom> java
532 2012-01-11 17:19:25 <Diablo-D3> java?
533 2012-01-11 17:19:30 <Diablo-D3> because java enums are fucking idiotic
534 2012-01-11 17:19:40 <Diablo-D3> I cant combine them into a bitfield like in C.
535 2012-01-11 17:19:45 <Diablo-D3> what the fuck is the point of that
536 2012-01-11 17:19:46 <TD> devrandom: i think extension data should not be dropped in a read/write cycle, but i agree that the mandatory field is a good idea if clients that don't understand the extension risk corrupting it
537 2012-01-11 17:20:08 <devrandom> I have a hybrid bit/sequence enum field...
538 2012-01-11 17:20:10 <devrandom> let me get a link
539 2012-01-11 17:20:11 <Diablo-D3> I use a static class with static final CAPITAL fields, and there, its a fucking #define.
540 2012-01-11 17:20:29 <Diablo-D3> when I get shit done, it gets done right.
541 2012-01-11 17:21:06 <TD> this is actually a protobuf enum
542 2012-01-11 17:21:29 <TD> devrandom: isGoodInvariants -> checkInvariants?
543 2012-01-11 17:21:35 <TD> i'm not sure what was wrong with the old name :)
544 2012-01-11 17:21:37 <Diablo-D3> Ive never used protobuf enums
545 2012-01-11 17:21:47 <devrandom> https://code.google.com/r/miron-bitcoinj/source/browse/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/WalletTransaction.java?name=wallet#26
546 2012-01-11 17:21:47 <TD> devrandom: or maybe isConsistent
547 2012-01-11 17:22:03 <Diablo-D3> isConsistent is kind of lame
548 2012-01-11 17:22:06 <devrandom> TD: I made it a boolean returning thing
549 2012-01-11 17:22:09 <devrandom> ok
550 2012-01-11 17:22:09 <Diablo-D3> although the best of the three
551 2012-01-11 17:22:22 <Diablo-D3> devrandom: "is" or "has" methods are almost guaranteed to return a bool
552 2012-01-11 17:22:35 <topi`> hi, my bitcoind has already taken >24 hours to download the blockchain, is this acceptable?
553 2012-01-11 17:22:36 <Diablo-D3> java has a very specific way of styling syntax
554 2012-01-11 17:22:42 <topi`> I see lots of these:
555 2012-01-11 17:22:46 <Diablo-D3> topi`: normal? yes. accceptable? no.
556 2012-01-11 17:22:48 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: acceptable, no, normal, yes
557 2012-01-11 17:22:50 <TD> devrandom: maybe include the extension name in the exception message, if it's mandatory
558 2012-01-11 17:22:57 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: jinx
559 2012-01-11 17:22:57 <topi`> how does this happen?
560 2012-01-11 17:23:18 <TD> devrandom: the rest LGTM
561 2012-01-11 17:23:20 <TD> devrandom: thanks!
562 2012-01-11 17:23:27 <devrandom> TD: thanks for the review...
563 2012-01-11 17:23:44 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: the p2p code isn't very smart at shuffling large chunks of data (like an initial blockchain download)
564 2012-01-11 17:23:50 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: is the short answer
565 2012-01-11 17:24:03 <TD> topi`: it's just a very intensive operation, to download and verify the entire block chain
566 2012-01-11 17:24:07 <topi`> jrmithdobbs: so, two peers provide the same block?
567 2012-01-11 17:24:12 <Joric> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDOcLros-w0 bitcoin vending machine - how safe are those instant transactions?
568 2012-01-11 17:24:12 <TD> topi`: ideally releases would come with the block chain in it
569 2012-01-11 17:24:21 <TD> topi`: i'm not sure why that isn't done
570 2012-01-11 17:24:24 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: if the first one you asked didn't answer quick enough, ya
571 2012-01-11 17:24:26 <devrandom> TD: Diablo-D3: so for the hybrid bit/sequence enum... the values that are mutually exclusive are sequenced and the values that are not are bit fields... if it's super annoying this way I can change it
572 2012-01-11 17:24:42 <topi`> TD: too big download, perhaps ;)
573 2012-01-11 17:24:44 <TD> devrandom: ok. it doesn't really matter
574 2012-01-11 17:24:49 <TD> topi`: you have to download it anyway
575 2012-01-11 17:25:19 <TD> devrandom: so to forcibly rewrite the history on my clone, i'd use "git push -f" ?
576 2012-01-11 17:25:31 <TD> after the "git reset --hard HEAD origin master"
577 2012-01-11 17:25:39 <jrmithdobbs> git pull -f you mean
578 2012-01-11 17:25:40 <TD> no, sorry, s/origin/upstream/
579 2012-01-11 17:25:53 <TD> jrmithdobbs: no i want to overwrite a remote repository
580 2012-01-11 17:25:58 <jrmithdobbs> oh, then yes
581 2012-01-11 17:25:59 <TD> *branch
582 2012-01-11 17:26:19 <TD> i got myself into a pickle with git
583 2012-01-11 17:27:41 <devrandom> the arg to git-reset is a commit
584 2012-01-11 17:27:48 <TD> git reset --hard upstream/master
585 2012-01-11 17:27:50 <TD> ?
586 2012-01-11 17:27:51 <devrandom> so maybe git reset --hard origin/master
587 2012-01-11 17:27:53 <devrandom> right
588 2012-01-11 17:28:09 <devrandom> then git push -f
589 2012-01-11 17:28:32 <TD> hmm. that's not quite right. how do i tell it to update its copy of upstream/master, without merging into my own branch?
590 2012-01-11 17:28:35 <devrandom> assuming origin is your remote personal repo
591 2012-01-11 17:28:42 <devrandom> git fetch upstream
592 2012-01-11 17:28:43 <TD> origin is my clone. upstream is the bitcoinj global master
593 2012-01-11 17:28:45 <TD> ah, fetch
594 2012-01-11 17:28:53 <TD> there we go
595 2012-01-11 17:29:51 <TD> ok, there we go. thanks devrandom and jrmithdobbs
596 2012-01-11 17:30:00 <TD> devrandom: so go ahead and merge that into master whenever you like
597 2012-01-11 17:30:19 <topi`> the initial few thousand blocks were very quick to download, so I thought the process wouldn't take two days...
598 2012-01-11 17:30:25 <TD> devrandom: i think before we release 0.4 we need to at least update all the examples and docs to point users at protobuf serialization, then fix the feb 20th flag day, and finally fix the compressed pubkeys
599 2012-01-11 17:30:30 <topi`> it seems they were downloaded in batches of 500 or so
600 2012-01-11 17:30:39 <TD> topi`: well, earlier blocks had less activity. if you don't want to wait, you can use MultiBit
601 2012-01-11 17:30:45 <TD> topi`: it will sync a LOT faster because it does less
602 2012-01-11 17:30:46 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: yes the got larger and more cpu intensive to verify around aug/sep 11
603 2012-01-11 17:30:47 <devrandom> np
604 2012-01-11 17:32:01 <TD> i'm really glad to see us get this though
605 2012-01-11 17:32:25 <TD> hopefully everyone can migrate to protobuf wallets over the next couple of months. should robustify things a lot
606 2012-01-11 17:32:50 <devrandom> TD: that sounds like a good plan
607 2012-01-11 17:33:03 <jrmithdobbs> protobuf wallets?
608 2012-01-11 17:33:15 <devrandom> TD: I was hoping to get feedback from Andreas, but I haven't heard from him yet
609 2012-01-11 17:33:36 <devrandom> TD: I suppose we can always iterate
610 2012-01-11 17:33:42 <TD> devrandom: he's probably just busy for a few days. i can't do much in the way of big changes until next week now
611 2012-01-11 17:33:51 <TD> i might get to some of the minor bugfixes tonight
612 2012-01-11 17:34:02 <TD> devrandom: but he wanted us to leave java serialization for a long time, so he should be happy :)
613 2012-01-11 17:34:12 <TD> jrmithdobbs: storing bitcoinj wallets as a protocol buffer instead of a java object stream
614 2012-01-11 17:34:22 <TD> latter is _extremely_ convenient, but that's about it. it's not very efficient or robust.
615 2012-01-11 17:34:38 <sipa> or portable
616 2012-01-11 17:34:43 <jrmithdobbs> oh, gotcha
617 2012-01-11 17:34:43 <TD> indeed
618 2012-01-11 17:34:48 <TD> well, java is pretty portable :)
619 2012-01-11 17:34:50 <jrmithdobbs> i missed the first half of the conversation ;p
620 2012-01-11 17:35:37 <devrandom> we hope the protobuf will be adopted by other clients maybe even by the Satoshi client
621 2012-01-11 17:36:05 <TD> i think the future direction for wallet formats is as full databases
622 2012-01-11 17:36:18 <TD> at least for the sort of things where the satoshi client is used
623 2012-01-11 17:36:27 <devrandom> https://code.google.com/r/miron-bitcoinj/source/browse/src/bitcoin.proto?name=wallet
624 2012-01-11 17:36:34 <TD> but for mobile clients protobufs are pretty good. too bad the proto2 library for java is so bloated
625 2012-01-11 17:36:37 <sipa> devrandom: i've had some mails with gary rowe concerning the portable walet format
626 2012-01-11 17:36:40 <devrandom> well, for wallet interchange...
627 2012-01-11 17:36:45 <TD> yeah, for interchange it's pretty good
628 2012-01-11 17:36:58 <TD> sometimes i wish we'd just released proto1 and got it over with
629 2012-01-11 17:37:16 <devrandom> ?
630 2012-01-11 17:37:24 <sipa> devrandom: but i personally am looking more towards a human-readable exchange format, rather than an efficient internal wallet format
631 2012-01-11 17:37:35 <devrandom> TD: oh, got it
632 2012-01-11 17:37:40 <CIA-100> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * rb462d89 / (3 files in 3 dirs): Updated vector argument to take layouts - http://git.io/-L7d4w https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner/commit/b462d89bfbc796bb633cf05847c2a828f9ad5536
633 2012-01-11 17:38:03 <devrandom> sipa: protobufs have a structured ascii format
634 2012-01-11 17:38:33 <sipa> hmm, interesting
635 2012-01-11 17:39:08 <TD> yeah they can be binary or ascii. though wallets are inherently binary structures
636 2012-01-11 17:39:17 <TD> so printing them as ascii has limited value beyond debugging, imho
637 2012-01-11 17:40:12 <devrandom> it's nice for forensics (how did my wallet get corrupted, etc.)
638 2012-01-11 17:41:54 <devrandom> TD: should I squash all the protobuf stuff into one commit?  or do you think the history of the past few days' development is useful?
639 2012-01-11 17:43:55 <TD> devrandom: it's fine
640 2012-01-11 17:43:59 <TD> devrandom: no need to squash
641 2012-01-11 17:44:59 <topi`> I understand that verifying the recent blocks takes up some CPU time, but my bitcoind has been steadily taking 4-5% cpu from the beginning and still ...
642 2012-01-11 17:45:20 <devrandom> TD: we should add the CIA link back...
643 2012-01-11 17:45:24 <topi`> I'd expect the cpu be pegged to higher numbers
644 2012-01-11 17:46:01 <TD> devrandom: yeah
645 2012-01-11 17:46:11 <TD> topi`: most of the time is spent waiting for disk io
646 2012-01-11 17:46:27 <TD> topi`: it's updating a consistent on disk database. so there's lots of flushing and things. as i said, if you don't like the delay, use MultiBit
647 2012-01-11 17:46:39 <TD> or grab a copy of the block chain database from elsewhere
648 2012-01-11 17:47:58 <devrandom> TD: pushed.  should I close issue #4 or #85?  or both?
649 2012-01-11 17:48:12 <TD> both
650 2012-01-11 17:48:14 <TD> yay! :)
651 2012-01-11 17:48:35 <TD> we should do some triage at some point. a few of these bugs are obsolete
652 2012-01-11 17:51:07 <devrandom> yup
653 2012-01-11 17:54:05 <jgarzik> current review of coinbaser posted on github pull request.
654 2012-01-11 17:56:59 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: Im still waiting on that triangle-area bitcoin dev group meetup ;)
655 2012-01-11 17:57:35 <JFK911> raleigh?  count me in
656 2012-01-11 17:59:16 <TD> devrandom: any idea what you want to work on next?
657 2012-01-11 18:02:31 <BlueMatt> JFK911: sounds good
658 2012-01-11 18:04:59 <devrandom> TD: not sure
659 2012-01-11 18:06:27 <devrandom> TD: maybe a stop-gap for tx fees?  (fixed fee)
660 2012-01-11 18:06:29 <TD> devrandom: i think the remaining Big Chunks of work needed for a truly great [mobile] client are real support for fees, and a circular block chain
661 2012-01-11 18:06:33 <TD> fixed fees is a very simple patch
662 2012-01-11 18:06:37 <TD> andreas has done it already
663 2012-01-11 18:06:54 <devrandom> TD: do we have to re-implement due to CLA?
664 2012-01-11 18:06:56 <TD> the next step is to ensure fees are sized appropriately for the transaction, but not worry about optimization
665 2012-01-11 18:07:02 <TD> yes, unfortunately so. luckily it's quite a trivial patch
666 2012-01-11 18:07:12 <TD> i've been meaning to refactor the wallet
667 2012-01-11 18:07:33 <TD> make some of the methods public, and change the interface so you can pass the wallet any arbitrary Transaction object and have it be completed