1 2012-02-13 00:34:41 <gmaxwell> can someone who uses the gui check to see if pressing "up" in the fee dialog still gets you to 1btc/1000 bytes?
  2 2012-02-13 00:35:44 <gmaxwell> also, can you see what happens if anything bad happens if you use ',' instead of a dot in the field? like 0,0005 ? does that result in 5btc paytx fee?
  3 2012-02-13 00:35:55 <BlueMatt> 2nd one: nothing bad should
  4 2012-02-13 00:36:14 <BlueMatt> the processing of numbers in guiutil fails on commas last I checked
  5 2012-02-13 00:38:16 <BlueMatt> can someone merge https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/490bef8bff62bebf5236ae271c2ac3fb4e849bbb the build warnings are really damn annoying
  6 2012-02-13 00:42:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, and it goes above 1 btc
  7 2012-02-13 00:42:32 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: doesnt let you type a comma, replaces it with a period
  8 2012-02-13 00:43:34 <gmaxwell> woot on the comma.. boo on the 1btc increments.
  9 2012-02-13 00:44:17 <BlueMatt> what, I shouldnt be allowed to put a 20 btc fee per kb if I want?
 10 2012-02-13 00:44:32 <gmaxwell> You should be allowed to, it shouldn't encourage it though.
 11 2012-02-13 00:44:48 <BlueMatt> it doesnt, it goes up by 0.001 increments
 12 2012-02-13 00:44:57 <gmaxwell> oh. good. I misunderstood you.
 13 2012-02-13 00:45:08 <gmaxwell> somenone had previously reported it going up by 1btc increments.
 14 2012-02-13 00:45:13 <BlueMatt> yea, there was a commit for that
 15 2012-02-13 00:45:50 <gmaxwell> Okay, I missed that commit.
 16 2012-02-13 01:03:13 <luke-jr> I think I backported that one to stable
 17 2012-02-13 01:06:46 <gmaxwell> Anyone know what the exact effect of the bug sipa fixed with wallet encryption an compressed public keys was?
 18 2012-02-13 01:08:07 <da2ce7> BlueMatt: maybe it should just compain an refuse to have a fee 1btc or larger...
 19 2012-02-13 01:08:41 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it looked like it wasn't copying the "is compressed" flag
 20 2012-02-13 01:09:00 <luke-jr> but I didn't look into it in detail, as I didn't have to backport it
 21 2012-02-13 01:09:11 <BlueMatt> da2ce7: I disagree, but...meh
 22 2012-02-13 01:09:24 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: nah, someone may actually want to dothat.
 23 2012-02-13 01:09:39 <gmaxwell> and if you're sending 1000 BTC a 1btc isn't really a big deal
 24 2012-02-13 01:09:46 <luke-jr> one of my pullreqs has a 'maximum automatic fee' for JSON-RPC :P
 25 2012-02-13 01:09:48 <gmaxwell> er a 1btc fee.
 26 2012-02-13 01:10:55 <gmaxwell> The maximum fee it can come up with is max(100*your specified fee,100*0.0005).
 27 2012-02-13 01:11:19 <gmaxwell> The coin selection code is a pita. It's impossible to change because its so damn interwoven.
 28 2012-02-13 01:11:47 <BlueMatt> so fix it ;)
 29 2012-02-13 01:12:00 <da2ce7> since we have all the data there already...why not set it to avg fee/kb for the last 1000 blocks or somthing...
 30 2012-02-13 01:12:47 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: haha. Then I, EvilMiner, mine a bunch of my own <1k transactions with 1000 btc fees.
 31 2012-02-13 01:13:19 <gmaxwell> It's silly, there isn't today any major reason to dork around with that knob except to be generous.
 32 2012-02-13 01:13:20 <da2ce7> gmaxwell: lol
 33 2012-02-13 01:13:57 <gmaxwell> Or to get slightly faster processing when you gotta pay _now_, but in that case, we really probably don't want a per KB knob, we just want a fee value.
 34 2012-02-13 01:14:40 <gmaxwell> Anyone play around with that setmininput thing litecoin has?
 35 2012-02-13 01:16:03 <da2ce7> gmaxwell: if we were really clever we could have a dialog that shows 'alocate a fee so that based on historical outstanding transactions my tx will confirm on average in x blocks (avg x*10min)"
 36 2012-02-13 01:16:30 <doublec> gmaxwell: namecoin has it too
 37 2012-02-13 01:16:31 <da2ce7> and users pick how quickly they want the tx to confirm on avg.
 38 2012-02-13 01:16:54 <doublec> gmaxwell: people used it to make spammed wallets usable
 39 2012-02-13 01:17:02 <doublec> other than that, not much feedback on it
 40 2012-02-13 01:17:38 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: That doesn't work so well because of the hidden factors: Miners mine their own txn for free (esp pools), Miners may insert stupid txn that distort your figures, Miners may process txn for free due to invisible external arrangements (luke/mtgox)
 41 2012-02-13 01:18:23 <gmaxwell> doublec: any idea of where the spammed wallets were becoming unusable? Was it because of txn failing due to hitting the maximum size or just because of the first pass through subset-sum taking a long time?
 42 2012-02-13 01:18:56 <doublec> gmaxwell: hitting size afaik
 43 2012-02-13 01:19:01 <gmaxwell> If its the first, I know how to do automatic setmininput, e.g. no configure knob.
 44 2012-02-13 01:19:04 <gmaxwell> sweet.
 45 2012-02-13 01:20:25 <gmaxwell> The idea would be start with mininput of 0. If you hit the maximum size, set the mininput to be greater than the smallest input you've selected, try again. Abort if you manage to get mininput up to the size of your output and you're still over the size limit.
 46 2012-02-13 01:20:54 <da2ce7> I think that https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/763  should maybe be counted as somewhat high priorty... it has been a issue for me b4.
 47 2012-02-13 01:21:02 <da2ce7> *why I opened it.
 48 2012-02-13 01:21:30 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: isn't it pretty obvious that it's not working?
 49 2012-02-13 01:21:57 <da2ce7> gmaxwell: no... becasue it dosn't complain that you cannot conenct to the proxy... it just silenty not works.
 50 2012-02-13 01:22:07 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: but it shows no connections, right?
 51 2012-02-13 01:22:08 <da2ce7> it could be that you have the wrong port. or anything.
 52 2012-02-13 01:22:30 <da2ce7> or not connected to the interent... or the proxy isn't working..
 53 2012-02-13 01:23:17 <da2ce7> sure... but you don't know if the issue is with your proxy settings... or the fact that the proxy cannot connect to the internt.
 54 2012-02-13 01:23:53 <gmaxwell> ah.
 55 2012-02-13 01:23:57 <gmaxwell> Patches accepted!
 56 2012-02-13 01:24:26 <gmaxwell> With that point, especially considering that tor can be a bit lossy, I can see the value.
 57 2012-02-13 01:40:28 <midnightmagic> da2ce7: if a proxy is configured, does bitcoind correct itself when you stop giving it a proxy config? (so it stops using the proxy?) or does it still remember the old proxy and try to use it regardless?
 58 2012-02-13 02:06:19 <da2ce7> midnightmagic: it trys to conenct to the proxy even if it nolonger exzists.
 59 2012-02-13 02:09:43 <gmaxwell> thats not what midnightmagic was asking.
 60 2012-02-13 02:09:57 <gmaxwell> He's asking if it keeps trying to use it when there is no proxy configured.
 61 2012-02-13 02:11:16 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: I think you could kinda get that behavior with any setting if you use the gui: The gui stores settings in the wallet. They become defaults. The commandline overrides them. If you don't use the gui anymore its not obvious where the settings are coming from.
 62 2012-02-13 02:48:47 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: please fix your mail server
 63 2012-02-13 02:49:02 <phantomcircuit> working on it right now
 64 2012-02-13 02:49:05 <phantomcircuit> hdd failed
 65 2012-02-13 02:49:09 <phantomcircuit> it's a mess
 66 2012-02-13 02:49:40 <gmaxwell> damnit. qmake crap doesn't correctly cope with not having the upnp libraries.
 67 2012-02-13 02:51:19 <midnightmagic> ah, quake. what a great game..
 68 2012-02-13 02:52:15 <phantomcircuit> lold
 69 2012-02-13 03:00:27 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: USE_UPNP=-
 70 2012-02-13 03:02:41 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: yea, figured that out dumb thing says it detects it but fails to cope.
 71 2012-02-13 03:02:52 <gmaxwell> also doesn't appear to support BOOST_LIB_SUFFIX
 72 2012-02-13 03:03:04 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: works on Gentoo :P
 73 2012-02-13 03:03:05 <luke-jr> I think
 74 2012-02-13 03:03:07 <luke-jr> <.<
 75 2012-02-13 03:04:30 <gmaxwell> it also needs -lrt on Fedora 16 apparently
 76 2012-02-13 03:24:49 <olp> ya and before you use make for bitcoin-qt you need to set the SUBLIBS variable if you wanna use custom libs.
 77 2012-02-13 03:25:51 <luke-jr> uh, no? O.o
 78 2012-02-13 03:26:34 <olp> well thats what i had to do for 0.5.1 and 0.5.2
 79 2012-02-13 03:27:11 <olp> otherwise it would put /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu in front
 80 2012-02-13 03:27:31 <luke-jr> &
 81 2012-02-13 03:31:24 <olp> the Makefile generated by qmake has: LIBS          = $(SUBLIBS)  -L/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu -lminiupnpc -lssl ....etc
 82 2012-02-13 03:31:47 <olp> but this is on ubuntu
 83 2012-02-13 03:31:49 <luke-jr> oh
 84 2012-02-13 03:31:54 <luke-jr> well, you have to pass the options to qmake
 85 2012-02-13 03:31:55 <luke-jr> not make
 86 2012-02-13 03:32:09 <olp> ya maybe theres other ways
 87 2012-02-13 03:37:27 <olp> see if I set OPENSSL_LIB_PATH in the qmake config file, the Makefile gives me this:
 88 2012-02-13 03:37:29 <olp> LIBS          = $(SUBLIBS)  -L/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu -lminiupnpc -L/opt/piratepack/ver-1.4-4_1/share/ssl_build/lib -lssl -lcrypto
 89 2012-02-13 03:37:45 <olp> (the piratepack is my own package)
 90 2012-02-13 03:43:56 <luke-jr> qmake has a config file?
 91 2012-02-13 03:44:17 <olp> bitcoin-qt.pro
 92 2012-02-13 03:44:54 <luke-jr> that's not a config file -.-
 93 2012-02-13 03:45:01 <luke-jr> qmake option=foo
 94 2012-02-13 03:45:21 <gmaxwell> Hm. -checkblocks only took 96 seconds on a system with a spinning disk with cold caches. I think we should put that in its own thread and run it in the background at every startup.
 95 2012-02-13 03:45:44 <gmaxwell> It would solve the issues with corrupted blockchains that have cropped up here and there and reduce the riskyness of using blockchain dumps.
 96 2012-02-13 03:46:03 <olp> when your run qmake to compile bitcoin-qt, it reads that file Im assuming
 97 2012-02-13 03:46:34 <gmaxwell> (right now the blockchain dumps are extremely risky if miners use them should a bit error creep in, the network will split based on who has a copy of that error)
 98 2012-02-13 03:53:05 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: remember that guy who wanted to use a CDN to distribute blockchain dump images?
 99 2012-02-13 03:58:25 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: What name should I remember him under? FROTUSCI? trigliu? jiles-? nazguls? panujan? wistiu?  Or any of dozens of other ones?
100 2012-02-13 04:19:45 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: let us dub him llewxamg
101 2012-02-13 05:46:47 <finway> Hello, i just submitted an issue.
102 2012-02-13 05:46:54 <finway> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/830
103 2012-02-13 05:47:24 <gmaxwell> finway: is your cpu usage high?
104 2012-02-13 05:47:57 <finway> yes, 50%
105 2012-02-13 05:48:03 <finway> 15%
106 2012-02-13 05:48:11 <finway> 11%
107 2012-02-13 05:48:12 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: finway-china opened issue 830 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/830>
108 2012-02-13 05:49:06 <finway> now it's not
109 2012-02-13 05:51:49 <finway> 0%, but still stuck
110 2012-02-13 05:52:21 <gmaxwell> anything more appear in the debug log?
111 2012-02-13 05:54:17 <finway> updated!
112 2012-02-13 05:54:28 <finway> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/830
113 2012-02-13 05:54:50 <gmaxwell> is it still stuck?
114 2012-02-13 05:54:59 <finway> yeah, still stuck
115 2012-02-13 05:55:11 <finway> updated here :   https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/830
116 2012-02-13 05:57:34 <finway> ;;seen roconnor
117 2012-02-13 05:57:34 <gribble> roconnor was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 0 days, 16 hours, 12 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <roconnor> sipa, gmaxwell: I think I know how to turn 1000 confirmation coins back into 1 confirmation coins using duplicate transactions.
118 2012-02-13 10:29:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: the bug i fixed: encrypting a wallet with compressed keys in it would cause one to get a 'wallet corrupted' error after restarting
119 2012-02-13 10:55:54 <sje> sory if this is an old one....why are mined transactions not shown in the 'unconfirmed' balance when they are unconfirmed?
120 2012-02-13 11:28:09 <sje> how do i verify a signed message?
121 2012-02-13 11:28:58 <Dumb-_> does p2pool charge a fee?
122 2012-02-13 11:29:38 <sje> Dumb-_: p2pool gives a 'finders fee' of 0.25 btc to the person that finds the block
123 2012-02-13 11:30:08 <Dumb-_> what stops that person stealing the entire block?
124 2012-02-13 11:30:08 <sje> subtracted from all other miners proportional to their shares i believe
125 2012-02-13 11:30:28 <sje> the miners work on signing a block that has payouts to everyone
126 2012-02-13 11:30:41 <sje> other miners won't help you on a block that only goes to you :)
127 2012-02-13 11:31:27 <cjd> sje: perhaps a mined transaction shows up as unconfirmed for 100 blocks because it is not spendable for that amount of time?
128 2012-02-13 11:31:41 <cjd> I don't really know myself but it sounds plausible
129 2012-02-13 11:32:19 <sje> cjd - yeah no worries, but i'm wondering why it doesn't show in the 'unconfirmed balance' in the wallet section of the overview page
130 2012-02-13 11:36:58 <Graet> until the block matures and the coins are "generated" here is no balance to be unconfirmed :)
131 2012-02-13 11:38:44 <sje> Great: ty, i knew it would be something like that... :( now I need to add an 'immature mined' field to my client
132 2012-02-13 11:38:55 <Graet> :)
133 2012-02-13 11:38:57 <sje> and understand the rest of the bloody source code
134 2012-02-13 11:39:04 <Graet> heh gl man :)
135 2012-02-13 11:42:29 <sje> ok i got a good code question: wallet.cpp line 779 (latest github) - why is the conditional inverted, so
136 2012-02-13 11:42:30 <sje> if (!pcoin->IsFinal() || !pcoin->IsConfirmed())
137 2012-02-13 11:42:31 <sje> continue;
138 2012-02-13 11:42:37 <sje> why do that?!?
139 2012-02-13 11:43:38 <sje> (ha I guess  that means I can't be satoshi huh? :P )
140 2012-02-13 11:44:03 <sje> srsly, is there a reason for that?
141 2012-02-13 11:44:14 <cjd> the only difference between you and satoshi is a "did I"
142 2012-02-13 11:45:41 <sje> ha
143 2012-02-13 11:45:56 <sje> i wonder if there is some tricky magic hacker reason
144 2012-02-13 11:46:07 <sje> 'cause it looks dumb :)
145 2012-02-13 11:46:19 <Dumb-_> hey!
146 2012-02-13 11:49:18 <sje> sry ;)
147 2012-02-13 11:51:56 <edcba> what do you mean inverted ?
148 2012-02-13 11:52:45 <edcba> also if there is some trick it's a bad trick
149 2012-02-13 11:53:55 <sje> i mean why say 'if !a or !b continue; do x'
150 2012-02-13 11:54:04 <sje> instead of the simpler 'if a and b do x'
151 2012-02-13 11:54:24 <sje> edcba
152 2012-02-13 11:59:20 <Dumb-_> edcba?
153 2012-02-13 12:00:42 <edcba> ok
154 2012-02-13 12:01:00 <edcba> because doing if (a & b) requires a new level of indentation i guess :)
155 2012-02-13 12:02:33 <Joric> speaking of indentation, i hate tabs so much
156 2012-02-13 12:04:07 <Dumb-_> yeh someone should invent a language without indentation
157 2012-02-13 12:04:13 <Joric> it's all because of python, i guess
158 2012-02-13 12:04:41 <Joric> it's almost unbearable since i turned on 'display whitespace characters'
159 2012-02-13 12:05:22 <Joric> now i'm finding tabs everywhere and replacing them with 4 spaces
160 2012-02-13 12:05:34 <Dumb-_> why 4?
161 2012-02-13 12:06:11 <Joric> PEP8, and it looks good
162 2012-02-13 12:07:33 <sje> yes, i LOVE tabs
163 2012-02-13 12:08:10 <sje> edcba - the continue is indented
164 2012-02-13 12:08:51 <edcba> no i mean
165 2012-02-13 12:09:01 <edcba> if (!a || !b) continue;
166 2012-02-13 12:09:03 <edcba> bla();
167 2012-02-13 12:09:04 <edcba> foo();
168 2012-02-13 12:09:14 <edcba> the other way is
169 2012-02-13 12:09:20 <edcba> if (a & b) {
170 2012-02-13 12:09:23 <edcba> bla();
171 2012-02-13 12:09:25 <edcba> foo();
172 2012-02-13 12:09:26 <edcba> }
173 2012-02-13 12:09:30 <sje> yep gotcha
174 2012-02-13 12:09:57 <sje> i think it kinda deserves the indent :)
175 2012-02-13 12:10:15 <sje> conditional blocks are normally indented, after all
176 2012-02-13 12:11:15 <upb> i like to return early too
177 2012-02-13 12:11:26 <edcba> if you don't use the continue thing you end up having a cascade of if
178 2012-02-13 12:12:00 <sje> hm...yeah ok that's a point
179 2012-02-13 12:13:10 <Joric> threre's even a policy demanding { } for every conditional block
180 2012-02-13 12:13:29 <Joric> in java, i guess
181 2012-02-13 12:13:33 <Dumb-_> what does continue do in that context?
182 2012-02-13 12:13:40 <edcba> usually i do that if i don't put it in one line
183 2012-02-13 12:13:53 <edcba> continue jumps to }
184 2012-02-13 12:14:11 <Dumb-_> i thought that was just for loops?
185 2012-02-13 12:15:23 <upb> do {
186 2012-02-13 12:15:24 <upb> .....
187 2012-02-13 12:15:31 <upb> } while (0);
188 2012-02-13 12:15:33 <upb> megahack
189 2012-02-13 12:15:48 <Dumb-_> doesnt that cause indentation anyway
190 2012-02-13 12:16:11 <upb> just one level :)
191 2012-02-13 12:16:17 <edcba> hmm
192 2012-02-13 12:16:42 <upb> if you have n conditions and you can check each condition after some additional operations
193 2012-02-13 12:17:18 <upb> essentially its the same stuff thats used in lunux kernal with goto end;
194 2012-02-13 12:17:23 <upb> or out or whaever it was
195 2012-02-13 12:17:40 <edcba> ok it is in a BOOST_FOREACH
196 2012-02-13 12:17:58 <edcba> wait...
197 2012-02-13 12:17:59 <sje> yes with only that one condition for the 'continue'
198 2012-02-13 12:18:10 <sje> no BOOST_FOREACH
199 2012-02-13 12:18:19 <edcba> no it is in a for()
200 2012-02-13 12:18:25 <sje> just const iterator in a CRITICAL_BLOCK
201 2012-02-13 12:18:29 <sje> yes, just a for loop
202 2012-02-13 12:18:39 <edcba> just for one line...
203 2012-02-13 12:18:45 <edcba> indeed seems backward
204 2012-02-13 12:18:49 <sje> so you could haev
205 2012-02-13 12:18:50 <sje> if (pcoin->IsFinal() && pcoin->IsConfirmed())
206 2012-02-13 12:18:56 <sje> reads better :)
207 2012-02-13 12:19:16 <sje> but, it makes the following function almost as ugly :)
208 2012-02-13 12:19:18 <edcba> especially with the next function
209 2012-02-13 12:19:38 <edcba> if (!pcoin->IsFinal() || !pcoin->IsConfirmed())
210 2012-02-13 12:19:39 <sje> ha
211 2012-02-13 12:19:43 <edcba> if (pcoin->IsFinal() && pcoin->IsConfirmed())
212 2012-02-13 12:19:50 <edcba> nice...
213 2012-02-13 12:20:17 <sje> demorgan's law
214 2012-02-13 12:20:44 <edcba> i guess you could factorize those functions a bit...
215 2012-02-13 12:21:27 <Dumb-_> urgh why so complex?
216 2012-02-13 12:21:52 <Dumb-_> this aint a quadratic equation
217 2012-02-13 12:22:08 <edcba> because less code, less bugs
218 2012-02-13 12:25:45 <sje> THERE ARE GOTOS IN LINUX KERNEL?!?!
219 2012-02-13 12:26:39 <Joric> http://thorinoakenshield.net/the-hobbit-photo-gallery awesome
220 2012-02-13 12:27:04 <lianj> sje: gotos within a function are not evil..
221 2012-02-13 12:27:37 <Joric> i hate fantasy, i like robots more but it's pretty cool
222 2012-02-13 12:28:27 <cjd> gotos are not necessary in any code so generally if you see them, the code is a mess
223 2012-02-13 12:28:46 <lianj> cjd: not true
224 2012-02-13 12:29:29 <Dumb-_> can you do gotos between functions?
225 2012-02-13 12:29:39 <sipa> there are use cases for them imho, but they are few
226 2012-02-13 12:29:41 <sje> in cpp they're possibly worse than in c
227 2012-02-13 12:29:56 <sje> e.g. invoking destructors if jumping out of a block
228 2012-02-13 12:30:06 <sje> too dangerous :)
229 2012-02-13 12:30:30 <lianj> sipa: yea, and in the kernel they are no mess or lower its quality
230 2012-02-13 12:31:35 <sje> yes, there's an exception to every rule...but that's a pretty damn good rule
231 2012-02-13 12:31:37 <cjd> it was written by masters of the art, yes. but it is unmaintainable at best and contains buffer overflow vulns at worst
232 2012-02-13 12:32:01 <lianj> goto cleanup, if done right is totally valid
233 2012-02-13 12:32:05 <Joric> i'm supporting unmaintable and unexpandable game code since 2006
234 2012-02-13 12:32:33 <sje> lianj - will that support exceptions?
235 2012-02-13 12:32:57 <lianj> in C? :P
236 2012-02-13 12:33:16 <sje> yes - in c it's safer
237 2012-02-13 12:33:23 <sje> but this is bitcoin-dev :)
238 2012-02-13 12:33:40 <lianj> i dont care about c++ anw :D
239 2012-02-13 12:33:47 <sje> :)
240 2012-02-13 12:33:52 <makomk> Hmmmm. A thought - if transactions spending BIP 16 P2SH outputs pass IsStandard in older nodes and are forwarded by them, what stops the older nodes including them in blocks?
241 2012-02-13 12:33:54 <Joric> some companies still want me to make branding/port some even buy the source
242 2012-02-13 12:34:35 <Joric> it's absolutely terrifying and the most awful thing i wrote it myself
243 2012-02-13 12:34:52 <Joric> that's what happening when you have nothing but deadlines
244 2012-02-13 12:35:15 <cjd> yeap, deadlines ruin good practice
245 2012-02-13 12:39:05 <sje> what's wrong with this for my 'GetImmatureBalance' function?
246 2012-02-13 12:39:06 <sje> if (pcoin->GetBlocksToMaturity() > 0)
247 2012-02-13 12:39:07 <sje> nTotal += pcoin->GetCredit();
248 2012-02-13 12:39:22 <sje> doesn't work :(
249 2012-02-13 12:43:00 <sje> hm...it seems 'GetCredit' will only give my 0 if it's immature...arg
250 2012-02-13 12:43:53 <cjd> C > C++
251 2012-02-13 12:44:28 <cjd> (but only for one value of C)
252 2012-02-13 12:45:13 <Dumb-_> i think C++ > C
253 2012-02-13 12:45:25 <Dumb-_> for example... 5 > 4
254 2012-02-13 12:45:41 <Joric> by all means, captain
255 2012-02-13 12:45:46 <Joric> except purity
256 2012-02-13 12:45:51 <cjd> nerp, ++C > C for all but 1 value :P
257 2012-02-13 12:46:07 <Dumb-_> what value is that?
258 2012-02-13 12:46:33 <cjd> UINT32_MAX if C is a uint32_t
259 2012-02-13 12:47:33 <cjd> actually iirc there's some weirdness in how those rules are interpreted so in some cases it can even depend on the compiler
260 2012-02-13 12:47:50 <Dumb-_> hmm
261 2012-02-13 12:47:54 <Dumb-_> i was thinking for a float
262 2012-02-13 12:48:11 <Joric> i want bitcoin engine in plain c
263 2012-02-13 12:48:52 <Joric> that would be the real libcoin not all those deviations
264 2012-02-13 12:49:31 <cjd> I support bitcoinC
265 2012-02-13 12:50:15 <Dumb-_> i support antidisestablishmentarianism
266 2012-02-13 12:50:21 <Joric> never heard of bitcoinc
267 2012-02-13 12:51:26 <cjd> no threads, C++, no goto -- then it stands half a chance of not having broken patches included by incompetent coders
268 2012-02-13 12:52:57 <Dumb-_> your welcome to start the project yourself
269 2012-02-13 12:53:06 <Dumb-_> just replace all the clases with struct's n it should be good to go
270 2012-02-13 12:53:11 <Joric> http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus
271 2012-02-13 12:54:14 <sje> haha 400 BTC immature...better check the outputs are mine, huh? :)
272 2012-02-13 12:55:05 <cjd> haha
273 2012-02-13 12:58:14 <Dumb-_> immature?
274 2012-02-13 12:58:17 <Dumb-_> what does that mean?
275 2012-02-13 13:00:12 <sje> mined but not deep enough in the block chain to be absolutely certain
276 2012-02-13 13:00:21 <Dumb-_> ohh
277 2012-02-13 13:01:02 <sje> mined coins need a longer confirmation period, because they don't have any inputs to check against (i guess)
278 2012-02-13 13:01:30 <Dumb-_> how long?
279 2012-02-13 13:01:37 <sje> 120 blocks
280 2012-02-13 13:02:05 <Dumb-_> 20 hours!!!
281 2012-02-13 13:02:14 <Dumb-_> i did not know this
282 2012-02-13 13:03:41 <sje> my client now shows immature :) woohoo
283 2012-02-13 13:41:42 <gmaxwell> sje: I don't see where you changed which transactions the GUI displays.
284 2012-02-13 13:41:42 <sje> i didn't change that
285 2012-02-13 13:42:01 <sje> the gui displays 'immature' mined 'transactions' already
286 2012-02-13 13:42:06 <sje> in the transaction list
287 2012-02-13 13:42:18 <sje> i only added that label to the overview
288 2012-02-13 13:42:20 <gmaxwell> Right, then I think you misunderstood me on the pull request. I believe the case right now is that the GUI displays immature transactions only after they're two deep.
289 2012-02-13 13:42:27 <makomk> gmaxwell: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63701.0
290 2012-02-13 13:42:33 <sje> i edited my comment there :)
291 2012-02-13 13:42:37 <makomk> BIP 16 is going to be interesting.
292 2012-02-13 13:42:49 <sje> they're still not available until they are 120 deep
293 2012-02-13 18:07:27 <Dumb_> i was just banned from #bitcoin for no reason
294 2012-02-13 18:07:38 <Dumb_> by phantomcircuit
295 2012-02-13 18:08:00 <Diablo-D3> because you ban evaded.
296 2012-02-13 18:08:15 <Dumb_> no i never
297 2012-02-13 18:08:33 <Graet> when? i couldnt find it in my scroll back
298 2012-02-13 18:08:43 <Dumb_> just a second ago Graet
299 2012-02-13 18:08:59 <Graet> um no when were you banned that u eveaded...
300 2012-02-13 18:09:26 <Diablo-D3> hes been banned for trolling before
301 2012-02-13 18:09:31 <Dumb_> i donno, he claims I was some person called Idiot
302 2012-02-13 18:09:40 <Diablo-D3> you are idiot and moron
303 2012-02-13 18:09:47 <Diablo-D3> your nicks, they fit a theme
304 2012-02-13 18:09:50 <Diablo-D3> very self depreciating
305 2012-02-13 18:09:57 <Dumb_> no, i just picked this name randomly
306 2012-02-13 18:10:50 <Dumb_> im a bit disappointed that I just got banned, i wanted to contribute to the discussion
307 2012-02-13 18:11:00 <Diablo-D3> okay, so why is your hostname the same as his? ;)
308 2012-02-13 18:11:00 <Dumb_> n hes not responding to my pms anymore
309 2012-02-13 18:11:23 <Dumb_> what, bt internet?
310 2012-02-13 18:11:31 <Dumb_> its a uk isp
311 2012-02-13 18:12:00 <Dumb_> if you guys wanted me to use a different name, you could have said so
312 2012-02-13 18:12:34 <pingdrive> well i guess its in your interest to find Idiot to absolve yourself then?
313 2012-02-13 18:12:55 <Dumb_> who is this idiot ?
314 2012-02-13 18:13:00 <Dumb_> can you give me his info?
315 2012-02-13 18:13:11 <pingdrive> i dont have it
316 2012-02-13 18:13:14 <pingdrive> sorry
317 2012-02-13 18:13:39 <Dumb_> im so upset
318 2012-02-13 18:14:07 <Dumb_> now i gotta find some guy i dont know to get unbanned?
319 2012-02-13 18:14:24 <pingdrive> bingo
320 2012-02-13 18:14:59 <pingdrive> proves how badly you want it
321 2012-02-13 18:15:18 <Dumb_> i just am interested in bitcoin
322 2012-02-13 18:15:24 <Graet> <gribble> idiot__ was last seen in #bitcoin 4 days, 21 hours, 34 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <Idiot__> i prefer salmon
323 2012-02-13 18:15:25 <Dumb_> n i dont like being accused of doing things that i havent done
324 2012-02-13 18:15:35 <Graet> banned 4 days ago and rebanned now?
325 2012-02-13 18:16:16 <BlueMatt_> wow, write to disk, wait about 1 minute, computer crash, and the file is gone...???
326 2012-02-13 18:16:20 <Graet> slow reaction time phantomcircuit this guys been in irc a couple of days....
327 2012-02-13 18:16:23 <BlueMatt_> thats some huge lag time there
328 2012-02-13 18:17:05 <Dumb_> is there anyone i can complain to?
329 2012-02-13 18:17:09 <BlueMatt> no
330 2012-02-13 18:17:15 <phantomcircuit> Graet, i banned him yesterday
331 2012-02-13 18:17:24 <pingdrive> the complaint department of bitcoin
332 2012-02-13 18:17:39 <pingdrive> #bitcoin-complaints
333 2012-02-13 18:17:44 <BlueMatt> please file a formal complain with your local /dev/null
334 2012-02-13 18:18:02 <BlueMatt> minimum 10 pages, single spaced, 12 pt times new roman
335 2012-02-13 18:18:08 <BlueMatt> in ms word 1995 format
336 2012-02-13 18:18:12 <lianj> padded with /dev/zero
337 2012-02-13 18:18:16 <Dumb_> theres no one there pingdrive
338 2012-02-13 18:18:31 <Dumb_> BlueMatt: thats not nice :(
339 2012-02-13 18:18:34 <pingdrive> you have to keep waiting
340 2012-02-13 18:18:37 <pingdrive> someone will join
341 2012-02-13 18:18:50 <pingdrive> i paged the right people, they said they are coming
342 2012-02-13 18:18:54 <Dumb_> you guys seem to be making fun of me
343 2012-02-13 18:19:03 <Dumb_> is this how u treat people?
344 2012-02-13 18:19:34 <Graet> unfortunately some do Dumb_
345 2012-02-13 18:19:39 <pingdrive> okay here we go again, not people only trolls
346 2012-02-13 18:19:53 <Dumb_> im not a troll
347 2012-02-13 18:19:59 <lianj> is this your first complain/argument on the internets?
348 2012-02-13 18:20:08 <Graet> he wasnt doing anything wrong,was engaging in conversation and was banned out of the blue...
349 2012-02-13 18:20:09 <pingdrive> lol
350 2012-02-13 18:20:12 <pingdrive> i knew youd say that
351 2012-02-13 18:20:26 <pingdrive> i hope its fun for the both of us
352 2012-02-13 18:20:32 <Dumb_> yeh Graet thank you
353 2012-02-13 18:20:43 <pingdrive> but seriously #bitcoin-complaints is your only hope now
354 2012-02-13 18:20:54 <Dumb_> the channel is empty
355 2012-02-13 18:21:22 <Dumb_> grr the guy who ddosed me is there
356 2012-02-13 18:21:27 <pingdrive> just keep waiting
357 2012-02-13 18:21:38 <BlueMatt> people join there when they feel like taking complaints, just wait
358 2012-02-13 18:21:41 <Dumb_> banned him
359 2012-02-13 18:21:55 <pingdrive> whoever's coming will take care of the guy to
360 2012-02-13 18:22:00 <pingdrive> dont worry
361 2012-02-13 18:22:11 <pingdrive> you're covered
362 2012-02-13 18:22:23 <Dumb_> oh
363 2012-02-13 18:22:34 <Dumb_> phantomcircuit said im banned forever too
364 2012-02-13 18:22:37 <Dumb_> isnt that a bit steep?
365 2012-02-13 18:22:47 <Dumb_> why permanent ban?
366 2012-02-13 18:22:53 <jercos> Breaking a promise is the fastest way to lose a friend
367 2012-02-13 18:22:58 <jercos> FOREVER
368 2012-02-13 18:23:29 <Dumb_> can i complain to a freenode staffer?
369 2012-02-13 18:23:42 <pingdrive> of course
370 2012-02-13 18:24:00 <luke-jr> Dumb_: they won't care
371 2012-02-13 18:24:04 <Dumb_> whats the complaint email?
372 2012-02-13 18:24:14 <pingdrive> complaint@freenode.net
373 2012-02-13 18:24:18 <Dumb_> why not luke-jr?
374 2012-02-13 18:24:30 <luke-jr> Dumb_: Freenode staff don't have any permissions on #Bitcoin
375 2012-02-13 18:24:40 <BlueMatt> pingdrive: oh, dont send them to freenode staff
376 2012-02-13 18:24:58 <BlueMatt> freenode staff dont have time to deal with this shit
377 2012-02-13 18:25:18 <Dumb_> this shit? i just got banned for no reason?
378 2012-02-13 18:25:26 <jercos> Time, or domain. Freenode staff are also explicitly cut off from mucking around in channel issues that don't pertain to the network at large.
379 2012-02-13 18:25:26 <lianj> m( waaaaa
380 2012-02-13 18:25:28 <pingdrive> oh werd, Dumb_ scratch that, #bitcoin-complaints
381 2012-02-13 18:25:29 <luke-jr> Dumb_: phantomcircuit doesn't need a reason
382 2012-02-13 18:25:30 <BlueMatt> ok, thats not freenode's problem
383 2012-02-13 18:25:32 <pingdrive> instead
384 2012-02-13 18:25:44 <jercos> Dumb_: Nobody cares, you don't have a "right" to be in a channel, grow up, get a life.
385 2012-02-13 18:25:45 <Dumb_> what about gavin, can he do anything?
386 2012-02-13 18:25:53 <BlueMatt> no
387 2012-02-13 18:26:22 <Dumb_> jercos: yeh but I have a _right_ not to be accused of doing stuff I never did
388 2012-02-13 18:26:31 <luke-jr> I think he can, but I don't think I've ever seen him *in* #bitcoin let alone moderate it
389 2012-02-13 18:27:07 <luke-jr> Dumb_: then sue phantomcircuit for libel.
390 2012-02-13 18:27:14 <luke-jr> doesn't mean you get back into #bitcoin
391 2012-02-13 18:27:18 <jercos> Dumb_: Absolutely, that's slander. That doesn't mean you get to be in a channel, it means now you can sue someone for slander, because they attacked you in a manner of speaking.
392 2012-02-13 18:27:31 <jercos> Or libel yes, I guess this is a "print media" being text.
393 2012-02-13 18:27:55 <sipa> Dumb_: you claim you are not Idiot___ ?
394 2012-02-13 18:27:58 <Dumb_> no because if he didnt go around accusing random people of stuff, i wouldnt be banned
395 2012-02-13 18:28:02 <Dumb_> he could ban any of you guys next
396 2012-02-13 18:28:04 <sipa> or however many underscores after it?
397 2012-02-13 18:28:08 <jercos> But since that's a waste of your resources, I'd suggest just sucking it up and growing a pair, like everyone else.
398 2012-02-13 18:28:27 <jercos> Dumb_: So? Anyone with ops in a channel can ban anyone they want.
399 2012-02-13 18:28:50 <Dumb_> so, this is a public project... there should be some accountability
400 2012-02-13 18:29:10 <jercos> Case in point.
401 2012-02-13 18:29:42 <jercos> Dumb_: I'm not sure what part of this is a public project. Bitcoin itself? certainly not.
402 2012-02-13 18:30:09 <Dumb_> oh its a privately owned project now?
403 2012-02-13 18:30:21 <jercos> Sure. Satoshi has always owned it.
404 2012-02-13 18:30:40 <Dumb_> in that case none of you have the right to do anything without asking him
405 2012-02-13 18:30:40 <sipa> you're free to fork it, or implement an own client, though
406 2012-02-13 18:30:44 <sipa> or build services around it
407 2012-02-13 18:31:07 <jeremias> no one has right to anything
408 2012-02-13 18:31:09 <luke-jr> Bitcoin is a public protocol
409 2012-02-13 18:31:12 <luke-jr> not a project
410 2012-02-13 18:31:15 <jercos> Dumb_: Incorrect. You seem to have a rather black and white viewpoint on a brown issue. Are you perhaps, a privaleged white american?
411 2012-02-13 18:31:35 <Dumb_> look at my hostname, im from the uk
412 2012-02-13 18:31:38 <Dumb_> as ive mentioned before
413 2012-02-13 18:31:47 <jercos> Your hostname is slicehost. You can be where you want.
414 2012-02-13 18:31:59 <jercos> Erm ah never mind.
415 2012-02-13 18:32:09 <jercos> I'm confusing you with someone else who acts like you :p
416 2012-02-13 18:32:13 <Dumb_> i disagree jeremias
417 2012-02-13 18:32:17 <Dumb_> i think everyone has basic rights
418 2012-02-13 18:32:28 <Dumb_> and just because i choose to stand up for myself you guys seem to be criticising and mocking me
419 2012-02-13 18:32:29 <luke-jr> Dumb_: those don't include IRC
420 2012-02-13 18:32:34 <Graet> <jercos> I'm confusing you with someone else who acts like you :p  <, i think this is part of the problem
421 2012-02-13 18:32:39 <jercos> Dumb_: You think. So um, you make up rights, and so you get them?
422 2012-02-13 18:32:58 <Dumb_> and now i get kicked too
423 2012-02-13 18:33:00 <jercos> Dammit.
424 2012-02-13 18:33:03 <jercos> Dumb_: You think. So um, you make up rights, and so you get them?
425 2012-02-13 18:33:05 <Graet> sigh
426 2012-02-13 18:33:08 <BlueMatt> is it odd that i saw myself ping timeout? shouldnt I not see that since ive already lost connection?
427 2012-02-13 18:33:23 <jercos> BlueMatt: Not if you miss a ping, but retain connection.
428 2012-02-13 18:33:26 <Dumb_> jercos: the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happyness, to dignity and respect, theres lots
429 2012-02-13 18:33:33 <jercos> The server still sends an ERROR to the dead link before dropping it.
430 2012-02-13 18:33:36 <sipa> Dumb_: and with good reason; if i were op here, and you did nothing but complain about being banned in #bitcoin, i'd ban you here as well
431 2012-02-13 18:33:37 <luke-jr> Dumb_: that's American bs
432 2012-02-13 18:34:00 <Dumb_> theres a universal declaration of human rights too
433 2012-02-13 18:34:00 <jercos> Dumb_: Sounding more american by the minute. who are those rights, and not say, my right to a solid gold brick?
434 2012-02-13 18:34:09 <jercos> erm, why those rights*
435 2012-02-13 18:34:10 <luke-jr> Dumb_: there's a right to life, but none of that other stuff
436 2012-02-13 18:34:38 <jercos> BlueMatt: Awww, you're no fun. i was leading up to that >.>
437 2012-02-13 18:35:03 <BlueMatt> meh, why waste disk space on him in logs?
438 2012-02-13 18:35:38 <jercos> Why waste disk space logging #bitcoin-dev period? ;)
439 2012-02-13 18:35:59 <jercos> (because I have terabytes left on my log array)
440 2012-02-13 18:41:01 <Dumb_> that was not nice
441 2012-02-13 18:41:22 <sipa> Dumb_: maybe not, but if you keep complaining about it, it will happen again
442 2012-02-13 18:42:19 <luke-jr> Dumb_: there's a right to life, but none of that other stuff
443 2012-02-13 18:42:28 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: please stop
444 2012-02-13 18:43:09 <Dumb_> O_o
445 2012-02-13 18:43:16 <lianj> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
446 2012-02-13 18:46:17 <theymos> Is it true that IsStandard won't block BIP 16 enough to protect old miners? ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63701.0 ) This seems false to me.
447 2012-02-13 18:48:52 <luke-jr> theymos: makomk seems to usually know what he's talking about in this area
448 2012-02-13 18:49:16 <luke-jr> it sounds logical
449 2012-02-13 18:49:31 <luke-jr> also sounds like a non-issue practically
450 2012-02-13 18:49:52 <luke-jr> when BIP 16/17 get adopted, the remaining miners will probably upgrade quickly
451 2012-02-13 18:50:05 <sipa> of course it is true
452 2012-02-13 18:50:17 <Dumb_> i dont think its true
453 2012-02-13 18:50:21 <luke-jr> however, I do wonder if BIP 16-related chnages might be responsible for the reported high CPU usage in 0.6rc1
454 2012-02-13 18:50:36 <sipa> if BIP16 is deployed after having a supermajority, any miner that doesn't upgrade is vulnerable to creating blocks that the rest won't accept
455 2012-02-13 18:50:58 <luke-jr> sipa: well, before there was a claim that IsStandard would protect against that in practice
456 2012-02-13 18:51:15 <sipa> ah, true
457 2012-02-13 18:51:20 <sipa> i think makomk is correct here, though
458 2012-02-13 18:51:34 <sipa> BIP16 inputs are standard
459 2012-02-13 18:51:38 <sipa> only the outputs aren't
460 2012-02-13 18:51:52 <luke-jr> BIP 17 inputs are not standard, BUT an attacker doesn't need to use valid inputs for this :/
461 2012-02-13 18:52:25 <sipa> right, it's not even relevant
462 2012-02-13 18:53:48 <luke-jr> if we had AreInputsStandard in older versions, it'd probably be immune
463 2012-02-13 18:54:22 <Dumb-_> wb BlueMatt
464 2012-02-13 18:54:48 <sipa> luke-jr: we do (though not by that name), it tests whether the scriptSig only has pushes
465 2012-02-13 18:54:48 <theymos> So the problem is that IsStandard doesn't look at full script pairs?
466 2012-02-13 18:54:54 <luke-jr> does anyone have a tool to measure flags in the last 1000 blocks?
467 2012-02-13 18:55:03 <BlueMatt> fun, apparently if you try to put a chart in a csv in libreoffice, it overwrites the original file with crap (or deletes it) and crashes my display driver...seriously WTF????
468 2012-02-13 18:55:05 <luke-jr> sipa: that doesn't check inputs
469 2012-02-13 18:55:37 <sipa> luke-jr: oh right, i see what you mean
470 2012-02-13 18:55:46 <luke-jr> sipa: AIUI, AreInputsStandard looks at the input txns and makes sure their scriptPubKeys are std
471 2012-02-13 18:56:17 <sipa> yes, you are right
472 2012-02-13 18:56:54 <luke-jr> anyhow, does anyone have a tool to measure flags in the last 1000 blocks? <.<
473 2012-02-13 18:58:12 <sipa> gavin has, afaik
474 2012-02-13 19:07:50 <luke-jr> hmm, 2% supporting BIP 17, 0% opposed
475 2012-02-13 19:08:21 <cjd> lol
476 2012-02-13 19:08:44 <luke-jr> Eligius is not the full 2%
477 2012-02-13 19:10:20 <luke-jr> 22% supporting BIP 16; 1.8% opposed
478 2012-02-13 19:10:49 <luke-jr> I think Deepbit is failing to express opposition to both :P
479 2012-02-13 19:11:23 <BlueMatt> heh
480 2012-02-13 19:11:36 <gmaxwell> hm. Is makomk really correct? any script that could spend a BIP16 output would have a script pubkey that looks like spending a pay to hash.
481 2012-02-13 19:11:42 <gmaxwell> Those aren't standard.
482 2012-02-13 19:12:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: old code only verifies whether an input only has pushes
483 2012-02-13 19:12:17 <sipa> to check standardness
484 2012-02-13 19:12:29 <gmaxwell> oh right. duh.
485 2012-02-13 19:12:49 <gmaxwell> I don't know why I keep getting confused about this. I had it right before.
486 2012-02-13 19:13:24 <luke-jr> lol
487 2012-02-13 19:14:20 <luke-jr> I don't think BIP 17 has to die yet, but I don't have the time nor reputation to do it justice& so unless someone else steps forward to be the new champion, I expect I will probably withdraw it this week
488 2012-02-13 19:15:19 <luke-jr> I still consider BIP 16's success to be a tragedy, but I need to move on to more important things
489 2012-02-13 19:17:05 <TD> i never cease to be amazed at what a hash the java community has made of logging
490 2012-02-13 19:17:22 <cjd> haha
491 2012-02-13 19:17:35 <Diablo-D3> FUCKING JAVA LOGGING
492 2012-02-13 19:17:40 <sipa> TD: i never got past using System.out.println...
493 2012-02-13 19:18:05 <Diablo-D3> sipa: heh, thats what I did
494 2012-02-13 19:18:06 <Diablo-D3> I was like
495 2012-02-13 19:18:16 <Diablo-D3> slf4j. but thats too big for DM. jul? no.
496 2012-02-13 19:18:20 <Diablo-D3> FUCK IT, PRINTF TIME
497 2012-02-13 19:18:26 <Diablo-D3> OLD SCHOOL NIGGERS!
498 2012-02-13 19:18:38 <Dumb_> racist :P
499 2012-02-13 19:18:51 <Diablo-D3> yes you are, Dumb_.
500 2012-02-13 19:19:35 <cjd> the more I do java, the more excited I am about javascript
501 2012-02-13 19:19:36 <TD> yeah, i am >< this close to just writing my own SLF4J backend
502 2012-02-13 19:19:45 <Diablo-D3> td: see, thats the great part
503 2012-02-13 19:19:50 <Diablo-D3> slf4j lets you write your OWN backend.
504 2012-02-13 19:19:59 <Diablo-D3> which solves the whole logging issue forever
505 2012-02-13 19:20:04 <Diablo-D3> one universal logging framework.
506 2012-02-13 19:21:12 <theymos> I'm taking a mandatory Java course now. Strikes me as a lot less elegant than C++ (especially the lack of RAII).
507 2012-02-13 19:21:31 <Dumb_> rati?
508 2012-02-13 19:21:37 <gmaxwell> theymos: Java is actually pretty smart. They took away the sharp edges.
509 2012-02-13 19:21:39 <Dumb_> raii?
510 2012-02-13 19:21:57 <Diablo-D3> fucking RAII
511 2012-02-13 19:22:05 <Diablo-D3> I hate that goddamned shit.
512 2012-02-13 19:22:08 <Diablo-D3> just use C, morons
513 2012-02-13 19:22:36 <Diablo-D3> people were using RAII-like techniques in C long before C++ ever existed
514 2012-02-13 19:23:51 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yea, ... with GOTO. ;)
515 2012-02-13 19:24:11 <Diablo-D3> hurrr.
516 2012-02-13 19:24:31 <sipa> there is one thing i really consider an improvement in C++ over C: destructors
517 2012-02-13 19:24:39 <Diablo-D3> sipa: C has those.
518 2012-02-13 19:24:48 <Dumb_> C does?
519 2012-02-13 19:24:51 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yes, it's calll "goto".
520 2012-02-13 19:25:11 <gmaxwell> (actually, C99 var arrays do reduce the need for that sort of thing but ::shrugs::)
521 2012-02-13 19:25:21 <gmaxwell> s/calll/called/
522 2012-02-13 19:25:31 <Diablo-D3> sipa: its called TypedeffedStruct_Free() or _Close() or whatever appropriate verbage.
523 2012-02-13 19:25:32 <phantomcircuit> goto err1;
524 2012-02-13 19:25:49 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: and no, I dont need to "catch" "exceptions" with goto
525 2012-02-13 19:25:50 <phantomcircuit> that's how openssl works
526 2012-02-13 19:25:54 <Diablo-D3> shit coded right will never need that.
527 2012-02-13 19:26:21 <TD> theymos: good c++ > bad java. however it's easy to write bad c++
528 2012-02-13 19:26:37 <Diablo-D3> good > bad in any language vs any other language
529 2012-02-13 19:26:37 <gmaxwell> what TD says.
530 2012-02-13 19:26:41 <TD> the problem isn't really the language
531 2012-02-13 19:26:47 <TD> though it has some annoying design decisions
532 2012-02-13 19:26:50 <Diablo-D3> the problem is the fucking coder
533 2012-02-13 19:26:51 <TD> it's more the frameworks that grow around it
534 2012-02-13 19:26:54 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: C++ is full of sharp edges.
535 2012-02-13 19:26:59 <Diablo-D3> TD: YES
536 2012-02-13 19:27:01 <Diablo-D3> EXACTLY
537 2012-02-13 19:27:02 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yea, well you can't always pick super ninjas.
538 2012-02-13 19:27:03 <TD> the java logging API is the most over-engineered piece of garbage i've seen for a long time
539 2012-02-13 19:27:04 <Diablo-D3> THE FUCKING COMMUNITY
540 2012-02-13 19:27:25 <sipa> Diablo-D3: ok, i'll rephrase: i consider automatically invoked destructors an improvement of C++ over C
541 2012-02-13 19:27:35 <phantomcircuit> TD, then clearly you haven't seen the python logging api
542 2012-02-13 19:27:39 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I dont cosider constructors a good language feature.
543 2012-02-13 19:27:42 <phantomcircuit> i believe it's a clone plus some shit
544 2012-02-13 19:27:42 <TD> hah. i have not, it is true
545 2012-02-13 19:27:46 <Diablo-D3> they only make sense for objects
546 2012-02-13 19:27:55 <Diablo-D3> not all APIs will have objects
547 2012-02-13 19:27:59 <Diablo-D3> it wont make sense for them too
548 2012-02-13 19:28:01 <Diablo-D3> *to
549 2012-02-13 19:28:15 <Diablo-D3> td: you know why DiabloMiner is my first and last Java program?
550 2012-02-13 19:28:22 <TD> shock me
551 2012-02-13 19:28:37 <Diablo-D3> because of the fucking community
552 2012-02-13 19:28:45 <Diablo-D3> there is so much goddamned fucking broken shit in the javaverse
553 2012-02-13 19:28:52 <Diablo-D3> and you cant fix it because other shit depends on that broken shit
554 2012-02-13 19:28:57 <sipa> i believe there is a lot of broken stuff for any language
555 2012-02-13 19:28:59 <Diablo-D3> but if you go write your own you're wasting time
556 2012-02-13 19:29:11 <Diablo-D3> no, see, like, C HAS NO COMMUNITY
557 2012-02-13 19:29:13 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: dude, just use a LoggerFactoryFactory and give it the argument for simple logging. Done.
558 2012-02-13 19:29:22 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: thats TD's issue
559 2012-02-13 19:29:44 <sipa> lol @ FactoryFactory
560 2012-02-13 19:29:52 <TD> sipa: yeah the problem is the broken stuff in java is all industry standard and used by everything :)
561 2012-02-13 19:30:01 <Diablo-D3> td: theres no maven, theres make. jsut one make, not maven and ant and eclipse's shit and shit, its just make.
562 2012-02-13 19:30:10 <Diablo-D3> td: theres no 3000 libraries for httpd shit
563 2012-02-13 19:30:12 <TD> gmaxwell: did you mean: an AbstractLoggerFactoryBuilder?
564 2012-02-13 19:30:14 <Diablo-D3> theres not 20 xml parsers
565 2012-02-13 19:30:17 <Diablo-D3> there isnt 4 json parsers
566 2012-02-13 19:30:22 <TD> Diablo-D3: in fairness, make sucks as well, just in different ways
567 2012-02-13 19:30:24 <cjd> LOL
568 2012-02-13 19:30:28 <Diablo-D3> no, see
569 2012-02-13 19:30:30 <Diablo-D3> make doesnt suck
570 2012-02-13 19:30:36 <Diablo-D3> make has flaws which are 100% documented and known
571 2012-02-13 19:30:41 <makomk> Actually, I think there probably are about 4 JSON parsers for C, all of which suck in different ways
572 2012-02-13 19:30:43 <Diablo-D3> maven has FUCK YOU OF THE WEEK
573 2012-02-13 19:30:43 <gmaxwell> All I can say is: Not knowing shit about java and wading into someone elses java code is only slightly painful. Doing similar with C++ is pretty much pure pain.
574 2012-02-13 19:30:54 <sipa> and there are 100 extensions to make which may or may not resolve those issues
575 2012-02-13 19:31:05 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I never had that problem, and I suck at java
576 2012-02-13 19:31:10 <Diablo-D3> its python that does that
577 2012-02-13 19:31:14 <Diablo-D3> nothing in python makes sense
578 2012-02-13 19:31:27 <Diablo-D3> the syntax is retarded, the code generally leads to being nondescriptive
579 2012-02-13 19:31:33 <Diablo-D3> python should just be banned off the internet
580 2012-02-13 19:31:52 <gmaxwell> Shit, I tracked down and diagnosed a JVM bug with about 12 total hours java expirence. ... I think I'll never be able tell if I've screwed up or there is a compiler bug in C++ even in another 20 years of programming.
581 2012-02-13 19:32:11 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: thats another thing
582 2012-02-13 19:32:17 <Diablo-D3> I thought having a universal VM was great
583 2012-02-13 19:32:20 <Diablo-D3> I WAS WRONG
584 2012-02-13 19:32:20 <sipa> gmaxwell: http://abstrusegoose.com/249
585 2012-02-13 19:32:25 <gmaxwell> I think python's syntax is fine. :: <3 list comprehensions ::
586 2012-02-13 19:32:56 <TD> there are some very nice libraries in java
587 2012-02-13 19:33:06 <Diablo-D3> IT JUST MAKES IT WORSE
588 2012-02-13 19:33:10 <TD> joptsimple is pretty straightforward
589 2012-02-13 19:33:50 <Eliel> Diablo-D3: I think the problem with java was that it was artificially pushed all over the place before it was really finished. Now it's too late to fix.
590 2012-02-13 19:34:17 <TD> microsoft has evolved C# pretty well
591 2012-02-13 19:34:23 <TD> C# is what java should have been, imo
592 2012-02-13 19:34:39 <gmaxwell> TD: I get that impression too, except the "controlled by msft" part. ;)
593 2012-02-13 19:34:42 <sipa> TD: yes, they learned from Java's inconveniences well, imho
594 2012-02-13 19:34:55 <gmaxwell> yea, second gen > first gen. duh.
595 2012-02-13 19:35:10 <cjd> there was this promise made in the 90's, use java now and we'll make your application fast later with jit magic etc..
596 2012-02-13 19:35:44 <cjd> and now we have silly things like a boolean or a byte taking up 4 (or 8) bytes
597 2012-02-13 19:36:01 <Diablo-D3> seriously, I should just fucking recode DiabloMiner in C
598 2012-02-13 19:36:13 <sipa> Dumb_: you mean cgminer? *ducks*
599 2012-02-13 19:36:16 <sipa> eh
600 2012-02-13 19:36:18 <chmod755> boolean.....4 bytes?????
601 2012-02-13 19:36:21 <chmod755> lol?
602 2012-02-13 19:36:27 <cjd> yes
603 2012-02-13 19:36:35 <chmod755> boolean == 1 bit
604 2012-02-13 19:36:37 <cjd> or 8 bytes depending on whether the vm is 64 bit
605 2012-02-13 19:36:40 <sipa> cjd: that's an implementation issue, no?
606 2012-02-13 19:36:42 <chmod755> LMAO
607 2012-02-13 19:36:57 <BlueMatt> chmod755: name one language that actually uses 1 bit for a boolean
608 2012-02-13 19:37:07 <cjd> yeah implementation issue but the point is sunoracle just dosen't care
609 2012-02-13 19:37:11 <chmod755> BlueMatt: errr.... assembly?
610 2012-02-13 19:37:16 <BlueMatt> nope
611 2012-02-13 19:37:17 <copumpkin> chmod755: depends where
612 2012-02-13 19:37:17 <sipa> C's bitfields
613 2012-02-13 19:37:23 <cjd> and yes ram might be cheap but processor cache space is not
614 2012-02-13 19:37:35 <copumpkin> BlueMatt: certain kinds of Haskell arrays pack arrays of booleans
615 2012-02-13 19:37:42 <Diablo-D3> fucking faggots at freeode
616 2012-02-13 19:37:44 <copumpkin> but it depends what you want from them
617 2012-02-13 19:37:52 <copumpkin> sometimes it's faster to use unpacked ones
618 2012-02-13 19:37:53 <sipa> STL's vector<bool> uses 1 bit per element, iirc
619 2012-02-13 19:37:54 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok, but thats not really one boolean per bit, since you are doing 8 booleans per byte
620 2012-02-13 19:37:55 <helo> they do love the cock
621 2012-02-13 19:38:12 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok, stl vector wins there then
622 2012-02-13 19:38:21 <Diablo-D3> anyhow, as I was saying
623 2012-02-13 19:38:28 <Diablo-D3> java is dead to me
624 2012-02-13 19:38:31 <BlueMatt> still, I dont think there are any languages that actually have 1 bit/boolean if you arent packing many booleans
625 2012-02-13 19:38:34 <Diablo-D3> I just cant deal with all the stupid people that use it
626 2012-02-13 19:38:48 <copumpkin> BlueMatt: well, considering it's not possible to address single bits on most architectures, that doesn't surprise me :)
627 2012-02-13 19:38:56 <sipa> BlueMatt: you can't or you lose alignment
628 2012-02-13 19:39:13 <copumpkin> BlueMatt: however, in many assemblies, you might consider status bits as having one bit per boolean
629 2012-02-13 19:39:20 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: exactly, so complaining about bit = 4 bytes and saying "boolean == 1 bit" is invalid
630 2012-02-13 19:39:20 <copumpkin> something like the overflow bit
631 2012-02-13 19:39:24 <BlueMatt> (is my entire point)
632 2012-02-13 19:39:34 <copumpkin> yeah
633 2012-02-13 19:39:38 <cjd> once you start doing list.sort(function(a,b) { return a.val - b.val });  it's really hard to keep on liking the "everything is an object" java world
634 2012-02-13 19:39:40 <Diablo-D3> erm
635 2012-02-13 19:39:46 <Diablo-D3> boolean == 32 bits. clearly.
636 2012-02-13 19:39:48 <copumpkin> you could store it in 1 byte, but then you lose alignment for some things
637 2012-02-13 19:39:57 <copumpkin> so most people just throw it in a native word
638 2012-02-13 19:39:59 <BlueMatt> yea
639 2012-02-13 19:40:07 <luke-jr> [15:38:28] <Diablo-D3> java is dead to me
640 2012-02-13 19:40:08 <luke-jr> troll?
641 2012-02-13 19:40:30 <theymos> [19/08/2010 02:19:36] <Diablo-D3> aceat64: well, it'd be nice if bitcoin was rewritten in java
642 2012-02-13 19:40:31 <theymos> :D
643 2012-02-13 19:40:39 <chmod755> LOL
644 2012-02-13 19:40:48 <helo> wow nice logfu
645 2012-02-13 19:40:49 <BlueMatt> heh
646 2012-02-13 19:40:49 <copumpkin> haskell's clearly where it's at
647 2012-02-13 19:40:49 <Diablo-D3> theymos: yeah, and now I no longer give a fuck about java
648 2012-02-13 19:40:53 <Diablo-D3> I just cant deal with it anymore
649 2012-02-13 19:40:58 <Diablo-D3> the language itself is great
650 2012-02-13 19:41:14 <Diablo-D3> but Im sure as fuck not going to write everything want myself so I can avoid importing stupidity
651 2012-02-13 19:41:23 <Diablo-D3> if Im going to do that, Ill rewrite everything in C
652 2012-02-13 19:41:24 <cjd> hahaha
653 2012-02-13 19:41:35 <helo> we should all aspire to judge languages not based on their merits
654 2012-02-13 19:41:57 <Diablo-D3> helo: yeah, like coding in a vacuum ever helped anyone
655 2012-02-13 19:42:01 <Diablo-D3> [03:41:18] <s3rk0n> ii kik u now baibai
656 2012-02-13 19:42:09 <Diablo-D3> [03:41:30] --- [s3rk0n] (~serkon@gateway/tor-sasl/s3rk0n) : serkon
657 2012-02-13 19:42:27 <Diablo-D3> [03:41:36] <Diablo-D3> dude, no one believes you.
658 2012-02-13 19:42:46 <cjd> for my project in C I wrote everything myself
659 2012-02-13 19:42:53 <cjd> so it all sucks but my bugs are mine :)
660 2012-02-13 19:43:26 <chmod755> cjd: develop your own bugs?
661 2012-02-13 19:43:38 <cjd> yes, and very carefully
662 2012-02-13 19:44:01 <TD> lol theymos wins
663 2012-02-13 19:44:43 <cjd> IMO C++'s constructor/destructor consept is kind of broken and garbage collection can never be smart enough to be fast
664 2012-02-13 19:45:01 <cjd> C's memory leaking pattern is obviously broken
665 2012-02-13 19:45:16 <BlueMatt> lets face it, every language is broken
666 2012-02-13 19:45:22 <BlueMatt> we should all go back to punch cards
667 2012-02-13 19:45:23 <TD> GC can be fast
668 2012-02-13 19:45:30 <TD> unreal engine uses it for its core (C++) heap
669 2012-02-13 19:45:40 <TD> does a mark/sweep GC fast enough to keep a stable 60fps
670 2012-02-13 19:45:50 <cjd> if you could tell GC what you meant to so then it could be much faster
671 2012-02-13 19:45:51 <TD> of course that takes care and recognition that objects aren't free
672 2012-02-13 19:45:54 <luke-jr> GC is a joke
673 2012-02-13 19:45:57 <luke-jr> just free properly
674 2012-02-13 19:46:11 <TD> "just free properly" is the cause of some truly wonderous hacks over the years
675 2012-02-13 19:47:03 <sipa> i'm quite amazed that bitcoin manages to have so little memory management problems
676 2012-02-13 19:47:43 <TD> modern c++ manages to avoid most of them. the biggest problems we have at work tend to be about uninitialized variables
677 2012-02-13 19:48:03 <sipa> yup!
678 2012-02-13 19:48:03 <TD> when memory leaks/corruptions occur it's almost always due to questionable combining of multi-threading and cross-thread callbacks
679 2012-02-13 19:48:09 <helo> python when programmer time is important, c/c++ when execution time is important... run like hell when memory usage is important
680 2012-02-13 19:48:27 <cjd> my solution is an allocator structure, allocators can allocate, fork off child allocators and free, when an allocator is freed, all of it's memory, all of it's children and all of their memory are freed.
681 2012-02-13 19:48:27 <TD> python is a win for programmer time when the project/teams are small
682 2012-02-13 19:48:46 <TD> once it gets large it gets too hard for new people to understand pieces of code in isolation and you begin to write python as if it was c++ to combat that
683 2012-02-13 19:48:47 <cjd> s/are/is/
684 2012-02-13 19:49:10 <TD> cjd: yeah that's quite common. objective-c relies on that
685 2012-02-13 19:49:34 <cjd> I don't see much use for either garbage collection or destructors
686 2012-02-13 19:49:55 <cjd> it actually makes C quite friendly in my experience
687 2012-02-13 19:50:01 <TD> GC simplifies a lot of things. especially when threads are involved
688 2012-02-13 19:50:14 <TD> i much prefer GCd to not, but it's nice to have RAII too. as usual D hits a great balance
689 2012-02-13 19:50:19 <TD> i just wish D[2] was actually usable
690 2012-02-13 19:50:23 <cjd> oh also you can hook functions to the allocator's free operation
691 2012-02-13 19:50:27 <TD> it'd be my perfect language if the toolchain and libraries weren't so flaky
692 2012-02-13 19:50:53 <gmaxwell> TD: D^3 perhaps.
693 2012-02-13 19:51:16 <cjd> so I have libevent timeouts and stuff which are cancelled onFree()
694 2012-02-13 19:52:26 <cjd> the only bug I have right now it my total memory consumption meter which is in the root allocator seems to be dropping until it becomes negative :/
695 2012-02-13 20:10:57 <helo> self optimizing, nice
696 2012-02-13 20:47:22 <Diablo-D3> well
697 2012-02-13 20:47:24 <Diablo-D3> that was fun
698 2012-02-13 20:49:38 <Diablo-D3> man fucking ISP
699 2012-02-13 20:50:08 <Diablo-D3> I missed out on trolling that douchebag
700 2012-02-13 21:05:55 <BlueMatt> wtf? apparently bitcoin is causing a segfault in libQtGui.so which kills my Xserv...
701 2012-02-13 21:06:13 <Diablo-D3> lolqt
702 2012-02-13 21:07:48 <luke-jr> wtf
703 2012-02-13 21:08:07 <BlueMatt> well half-killing x, it doesnt actually die, mouse still moves, but nothing else works
704 2012-02-13 21:08:19 <BlueMatt> no clicking no window refresh, etc
705 2012-02-13 21:08:32 <BlueMatt> also, cntl-alt-f1-6 doesnt open a terminal when that happens...
706 2012-02-13 21:08:42 <BlueMatt> so, maybe its not x, but kernel?
707 2012-02-13 21:08:50 <Diablo-D3> hrm
708 2012-02-13 21:08:57 <Diablo-D3> dunno, it shouldnt do that
709 2012-02-13 21:09:04 <BlueMatt> or maybe the qt segfault is a result of some other underlying cause
710 2012-02-13 21:09:19 <BlueMatt> (probably more likely, but then what is the cause that doesnt print to syslog?)
711 2012-02-13 21:10:08 <luke-jr> is X eating CPU?
712 2012-02-13 21:10:15 <BlueMatt> no way to tell after it happens
713 2012-02-13 21:10:20 <BlueMatt> all I can do is REISUB
714 2012-02-13 21:11:03 <Diablo-D3> ssh in
715 2012-02-13 21:11:13 <BlueMatt> from a computer I dont have
716 2012-02-13 21:11:36 <BlueMatt> also, its pretty erratic, not something that I can reproduce...
717 2012-02-13 21:11:49 <BlueMatt> though Ive only seen it when benchmarking bitcoin on tmpfs
718 2012-02-13 21:13:24 <BlueMatt> (could obv be a coincidence from high cpu <-> ram activity)
719 2012-02-13 21:21:58 <BlueMatt_> ffs
720 2012-02-13 21:22:02 <BlueMatt_> I guess I can no longer benchmark bitcoin...
721 2012-02-13 21:58:25 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened issue 832 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/832>
722 2012-02-13 22:03:29 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened issue 833 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/833>