1 2012-03-05 00:04:35 <k9quaint> sipa: yes
  2 2012-03-05 00:06:57 <sipa> so all coins only appear in one transaction
  3 2012-03-05 00:07:50 <sipa> generated coins are only special in the sense that their corresponding transactions have no inputs, i.e. cannot be traced back further
  4 2012-03-05 00:08:45 <luke-jr> hum
  5 2012-03-05 00:08:53 <luke-jr> I guess Bitcoin is doing pretty good
  6 2012-03-05 00:09:14 <luke-jr> I just realized that my "nice" profit on reselling a BitFORCE FPGA miner & is a loss if measured in Bitcoins
  7 2012-03-05 00:10:02 <gmaxwell> hah
  8 2012-03-05 00:10:12 <splatster> wow
  9 2012-03-05 00:10:31 <sipa> heh?
 10 2012-03-05 00:10:39 <luke-jr> bought for 207 BTC (500 USD)
 11 2012-03-05 00:10:49 <luke-jr> about to sell for 170 BTC (800 USD)
 12 2012-03-05 00:11:05 <sipa> ha, nice
 13 2012-03-05 00:11:22 <luke-jr> having second thoughts on the sale now >_<
 14 2012-03-05 00:11:41 <sipa> basically, you lost on the device, but won in speculation
 15 2012-03-05 00:12:06 <sipa> from the viewpoint of bitcoin as base currency
 16 2012-03-05 00:12:11 <luke-jr> sipa: well, I don't *have* to sell the device yet <.<
 17 2012-03-05 00:12:47 <luke-jr> otoh, not sure it will break even if everyone's buying them now
 18 2012-03-05 00:15:02 <sipa> luke-jr: how many Mhash/s do they do in practice?
 19 2012-03-05 00:16:12 <luke-jr> ~820 MH/s on average, at 72 F ambient temp
 20 2012-03-05 00:16:30 <sipa> nice
 21 2012-03-05 00:16:49 <luke-jr> at higher ambient temps, they throttle by shutting off when necessary to cool down
 22 2012-03-05 00:17:53 <gribble> 22.2222222222
 23 2012-03-05 00:17:53 <sipa> ;;calc (72-32)*5/9
 24 2012-03-05 00:18:14 <sipa> (degrees celsius)
 25 2012-03-05 00:18:56 <splatster> ;;bids 4.85
 26 2012-03-05 00:18:57 <gribble> There are currently 6925.1382 bitcoins demanded at or over 4.85 USD, worth 33861.8439587 USD in total.
 27 2012-03-05 00:19:04 <Raccoon> What's the avg Hash/Coin these days?
 28 2012-03-05 00:19:27 <luke-jr> ~3.8 Tonal Temps fwiw ;)
 29 2012-03-05 00:19:43 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 820000
 30 2012-03-05 00:19:44 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 820000 Khps, given current difficulty of 1496978.5950256 , is 0.550962635551 BTC per day and 0.0229567764813 BTC per hour.
 31 2012-03-05 00:20:13 <sipa> ;;calc [bc,diff]*2**48/65535/50
 32 2012-03-05 00:20:14 <gribble> 1.28591444319e+14
 33 2012-03-05 00:20:40 <Raccoon> luke-jr: how many watts does it consume?
 34 2012-03-05 00:21:06 <sipa> Raccoon: 1.28 million billion hashes to generate 1 BTC
 35 2012-03-05 00:21:11 <luke-jr> Raccoon: not sure
 36 2012-03-05 00:21:33 <Raccoon> should get you a Kill-A-Watt :)
 37 2012-03-05 00:21:40 <luke-jr> I wouldn't mind :p
 38 2012-03-05 00:21:47 <sipa> luke-jr: how are tonal temps defined?
 39 2012-03-05 00:22:54 <luke-jr> sipa: 0 Tp = 0 C; 10 Tp = 100 C
 40 2012-03-05 00:23:13 <luke-jr> sipa: note that's tonal 10, aka decimal 16
 41 2012-03-05 00:23:29 <sipa> right :)
 42 2012-03-05 00:23:56 <Raccoon> well, at a $5/BTC market, the rig is worth roughly $1002.75 per annum, not counting energy costs.
 43 2012-03-05 00:24:18 <luke-jr> Raccoon: warranty is 6 months ;p
 44 2012-03-05 00:24:35 <luke-jr> Raccoon: also, you forget difficulty adjustments
 45 2012-03-05 00:24:39 <Raccoon> aye
 46 2012-03-05 00:24:45 <luke-jr> if everyone buys up on FPGAs, diff will shoot up
 47 2012-03-05 00:24:48 <Raccoon> just a roughtimate
 48 2012-03-05 00:25:00 <Raccoon> would be nifty to know the wattage
 49 2012-03-05 00:25:02 <luke-jr> I guess I should consider selling at a loss just to avoid the risk of a greater loss&
 50 2012-03-05 00:25:32 <luke-jr> otoh, if I can hack it to do other stuff, might have some other value
 51 2012-03-05 00:26:04 <Raccoon> use it to bruteforce mtgox's private keys
 52 2012-03-05 00:26:23 <luke-jr> Raccoon: impossible
 53 2012-03-05 00:26:29 <Raccoon> :)
 54 2012-03-05 00:26:54 <luke-jr> it's too bad Bitcoin didn't use some algorithm that could scale <.<
 55 2012-03-05 00:27:08 <luke-jr> ie, let the user/client decide whether 512 bit is appropriate or 8196 bit
 56 2012-03-05 00:36:24 <forrestv> luke-jr, something like that is possible, though it might not have the exact same properties - use multisig and require all signatures
 57 2012-03-05 00:36:43 <luke-jr> true
 58 2012-03-05 00:42:23 <Joric> https://github.com/joric/pyblockchain updated ) now it draws charts http://goo.gl/jAsjr
 59 2012-03-05 00:42:44 <gmaxwell> forrestv: only improves linearly, alas.
 60 2012-03-05 00:43:07 <gmaxwell> forrestv: at the same time the computational load of validation is a major consideration too.
 61 2012-03-05 01:02:15 <forrestv> ah, oops
 62 2012-03-05 02:44:26 <rebel> so I'm running 0.3.24-beta on ubuntu. can I just readd the bitcoin ppa, update bitcoin & everything will be fine?
 63 2012-03-05 04:28:05 <FaktioNN> When doing an API call to pull all receiving addresses, I get an empty set even though I specify to include empty address accounts. Don't all wallets start with one empty receiving address?
 64 2012-03-05 06:06:40 <draco49> Is there a way to list every addr in a wallet, including those that are not associated with a particular account, using bitcoind?
 65 2012-03-05 06:07:52 <Cory> "Listing the bitcoin addresses in your wallet is easily done via listreceivedbyaddress. It normally lists only addresses which already have received transactions, however you can list all the addresses by setting the first argument to 0, and the second one to true."
 66 2012-03-05 06:10:57 <draco49> thx Cory
 67 2012-03-05 06:11:12 <Cory> <3
 68 2012-03-05 09:15:45 <zeiris> How long does it normally take to synchronize with the network from a clean install?
 69 2012-03-05 09:16:17 <zeiris> On my EEEPC 1005HA, and 6 year old Toshiba Satellite laptop, it's taken like 10 hours to get to 87%. Possibly more.
 70 2012-03-05 09:29:20 <cyberdo> isn't that related to connection speed rather than CPU?
 71 2012-03-05 09:30:38 <sturles> CPU and disk I/O normally.
 72 2012-03-05 09:53:58 <libcoin> On an optimal connection time is used on database access and verification (ECC signature checks)
 73 2012-03-05 09:56:41 <denisx> what does the unlocked_until in getinfo stands for?
 74 2012-03-05 09:57:21 <denisx> for me it has always a value of zero, wallet unlocked or not
 75 2012-03-05 09:57:27 <libcoin> However, I have seen slow updates too, that resulted in some kind of bad mutex/thread management - I do a clean update on my MacBook Pro in about 60minutes using libcoin/bitcoind, with bitcoin/bitcoind it takes 3.5 hour. However, on other platforms the timing is more equal (see e.g. : https://github.com/ceptacle/libcoin/wiki/Performance-tests )
 76 2012-03-05 09:58:04 <libcoin> if you do a unlock of the wallet using RPC it will be unlocked for, say, 2 minutes
 77 2012-03-05 09:58:10 <libcoin> getinfo will show you the time left
 78 2012-03-05 09:58:19 <libcoin> (or should show you)
 79 2012-03-05 09:59:52 <denisx> I think this is not working
 80 2012-03-05 10:00:44 <libcoin> I'll have a look at the code and will create a ticket if needed - thanks for noticing!
 81 2012-03-05 10:05:12 <denisx> I have also a problem with bitcoind walletpassphrase xxx 120
 82 2012-03-05 10:05:23 <denisx> it says error: {"code":-1,"message":"value is type str, expected int"}
 83 2012-03-05 10:05:37 <denisx> when I do that again it says error: {"code":-17,"message":"Error: Wallet is already unlocked."}
 84 2012-03-05 10:10:25 <libcoin> Have you tried if the time you enter actually matches the time it is unlocked ?
 85 2012-03-05 10:10:50 <libcoin> (could be that the error comes from the client, that then converts to int and everything is then fine)
 86 2012-03-05 10:11:01 <denisx> how can I see that without starting a transaction?
 87 2012-03-05 10:11:36 <libcoin> do like you did: bitcoind walletpassphrase xxx 10
 88 2012-03-05 10:11:40 <libcoin> wait 10 sec
 89 2012-03-05 10:11:44 <denisx> ah, ok
 90 2012-03-05 10:11:46 <libcoin> and try again
 91 2012-03-05 10:14:12 <denisx> the timeout does not work
 92 2012-03-05 10:15:27 <libcoin> I will create a ticket
 93 2012-03-05 10:15:58 <denisx> thanks
 94 2012-03-05 10:18:59 <freeman5> Hey
 95 2012-03-05 10:19:14 <freeman5> can you help me for ecoinpool ? ^^
 96 2012-03-05 10:23:01 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gronager opened issue 916 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/916>
 97 2012-03-05 11:57:52 <denisx> is there somewhere something like a transaction disassembler?
 98 2012-03-05 11:58:03 <denisx> for something like that: 01000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ffffffff00ffffffff0100f2052a01000000434104c79d36929f092f388b6103fd66879083a124f8ab2dbbde91a3cc32d995e1ae5e8a6f7afe43d0d78fc588bba24c29b18f79ae8400d5c9d72deb2cdc18e9997201ac00000000
 99 2012-03-05 13:00:42 <lianj> denisx: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/bamE6QJ7fmmNqlYVB1cj/
100 2012-03-05 13:02:07 <denisx> lianj: thanks
101 2012-03-05 13:59:21 <freewil> can anyone tell me what this means in debug.log...
102 2012-03-05 13:59:22 <freewil> getblocks 47429 to 00000000000000000000 limit 1021
103 2012-03-05 13:59:52 <freewil> my client seems to be stuck on a block on testnet
104 2012-03-05 14:01:29 <sipa> testnet is quite broken after the new rule was introduced
105 2012-03-05 14:01:48 <sipa> too many nodes using the old rule
106 2012-03-05 14:07:06 <kinlo> perhaps it is time to restart testnet with 0.6?
107 2012-03-05 14:07:32 <kinlo> altough - the difficulty has dropped enough lately to use it for testing again
108 2012-03-05 14:08:58 <sipa> the problem is not the difficulty, the last change took care of that
109 2012-03-05 14:09:12 <sipa> the problem is that many invalid nodes remain, and their partial chains are still accepted
110 2012-03-05 14:09:19 <sipa> s/invalid/old/
111 2012-03-05 14:10:10 <kinlo> yeah, but you can only fix that by releasing the new version right?
112 2012-03-05 14:10:18 <kinlo> my testnet clients are still 0.5.x
113 2012-03-05 14:10:31 <gavinandresen> Then you're part of the problem
114 2012-03-05 14:11:06 <kinlo> I'm not running git - I'm running stable so I can test my other software against bitcoind with testnet coins that are easy to generate
115 2012-03-05 14:11:41 <kinlo> testnet is imho for both bitcoin development as well as development of other software talking to the bitcoin client
116 2012-03-05 14:11:45 <gavinandresen> You should probably be testing with a testnet-in-a-box setup
117 2012-03-05 14:12:03 <kinlo> probably :)
118 2012-03-05 14:12:24 <gavinandresen> Testnet as of right now is really for testing the new 0.6 features
119 2012-03-05 14:12:29 <kinlo> but asap as my current development project is fully in production, I will be upgrading to 0.6
120 2012-03-05 14:12:32 <sipa> gavinandresen: i think when the rules for testnet change in the future, it should really be reset as well
121 2012-03-05 14:12:43 <kinlo> I'll shutdown my testnet client so I won't disturb you :)
122 2012-03-05 14:12:49 <kinlo> untill I've upgraded it
123 2012-03-05 14:13:03 <gavinandresen> sipa:  probably.  Although a reset is just as disruptive as what is happening now
124 2012-03-05 14:13:33 <sipa> not really, nodes try to sync from the first node they connect to
125 2012-03-05 14:13:51 <sipa> if that node can give them 46000 valid blocks, they just get stuck afterwards
126 2012-03-05 14:14:24 <sipa> if that node can't give anything, i suppose it would fail sooner and find a new node faster
127 2012-03-05 14:14:28 <sipa> maybe...
128 2012-03-05 14:14:40 <gavinandresen> The new DoS code will make it fail pretty fast
129 2012-03-05 14:14:46 <gavinandresen> (and disconnect the old-rules peer)
130 2012-03-05 14:15:03 <gavinandresen> ... but the old peers don't have that new code, of course....
131 2012-03-05 14:15:44 <freewil> what is it about 0.5.x  that causes problems on testnet
132 2012-03-05 14:15:50 <gavinandresen> I WOULD like to have a testnet reset, pre-mined with a chain that contains all the corner-cases we can think of for block validation rules
133 2012-03-05 14:15:51 <freewil> and does it affect the realnet
134 2012-03-05 14:16:16 <sipa> freewil: the problem is that 0.5 is not 0.6, and it doesn't affect realnet
135 2012-03-05 14:16:21 <gavinandresen> freewil: there is a testnet-only rules change about block difficulty
136 2012-03-05 14:16:38 <sipa> gavinandresen's answer is probably more helpful :)
137 2012-03-05 14:16:45 <gavinandresen> freewil: ... designed so transactions always confirm on testnet within 20 or so minutes
138 2012-03-05 14:18:42 <freewil> oh well this is good to know
139 2012-03-05 14:58:03 <luke-jr> I suppose I should backport the testnet changes to 0.4 and 0.5
140 2012-03-05 15:05:24 <freewil> as long as 0.5.2 is the latest stable release - people will be using that on testnet
141 2012-03-05 15:10:13 <luke-jr> another solution could be a 0.6 rule that after <date>, the testnet magic numbers change
142 2012-03-05 15:10:27 <luke-jr> or something like that
143 2012-03-05 15:11:14 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: want to build 0.5.3rc3 ?
144 2012-03-05 15:13:39 <BlueMatt> we have one of those?
145 2012-03-05 15:14:40 <BlueMatt> yea, Ill do it sometime later today
146 2012-03-05 15:15:07 <luke-jr> k
147 2012-03-05 15:15:18 <luke-jr> I'll try to do a build too
148 2012-03-05 15:15:25 <copumpkin> ;;seen roconnor
149 2012-03-05 15:15:25 <gribble> roconnor was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 weeks, 3 days, 0 hours, 34 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <roconnor> Dear user n27pHgA6KioCvXUCdijzdFjeaa9kHA7kzi, Due to your violation of bitcoin TOS your asset has been frozen and your private key is being disclosed as 9afaa65b092e4c82ea752080bee6ce53398207dca480f64c82f32bdb7f85b7e5. Have a nice day, and thank you for using bitcoin.
150 2012-03-05 15:28:28 <lianj> bitcoin TOS?
151 2012-03-05 15:28:47 <luke-jr> lianj: pretty sure it was a joke
152 2012-03-05 15:28:58 <lianj> ah, haha. ok :)
153 2012-03-05 15:29:10 <BlueMatt> pretty sure? what you missed the whole block of code that uploads all private keys to gavin's server?
154 2012-03-05 15:29:27 <gavinandresen> ssshhhh
155 2012-03-05 15:30:08 <BlueMatt> oh, sorry
156 2012-03-05 15:30:20 <gavinandresen> Those private keys are 100% guaranteed to be there just in case, to keep the network safe.
157 2012-03-05 15:30:29 <lianj> ^^
158 2012-03-05 15:30:46 <gavinandresen> I really shouldn't joke like that, somebody will think we're serious....
159 2012-03-05 15:31:06 <luke-jr> btw, anyone check that the GitHub exploit wasn't used on Bitcoin's repos?
160 2012-03-05 15:31:18 <lianj> "TOS changes allow gavinandresen to keep key backups"
161 2012-03-05 15:31:23 <BlueMatt> meh, anyone who actually believes that (and that we would be so frank about it) probably cant do too much damage...
162 2012-03-05 15:31:40 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: wouldnt git notice when you fetch?
163 2012-03-05 15:31:52 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: not if it was a fast-forward :P
164 2012-03-05 15:32:08 <BlueMatt> wouldnt git mention that there was a fast-forward in the fetch?
165 2012-03-05 15:32:10 <gavinandresen> yes, git is pretty hack-proof, if git pull says up-to-date then there was no hack of the soruce
166 2012-03-05 15:32:11 <luke-jr> yes
167 2012-03-05 15:32:32 <luke-jr> I'm worried that someone could have possibly slipped something into an apparently harmless merge
168 2012-03-05 15:32:38 <luke-jr> I read every commit *except* merges
169 2012-03-05 15:33:47 <BlueMatt> as long as the head commitid didnt change, we should be good afaik
170 2012-03-05 15:34:03 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: the head changes all the time
171 2012-03-05 15:34:23 <BlueMatt> well changed aside from actual merges
172 2012-03-05 15:34:23 <gavinandresen> A bigger worry would be sourceforge getting compromised, and somebody slipping a modified bitcoin-setup.exe to every 100'th downloader
173 2012-03-05 15:34:30 <BlueMatt> (that happened during the attack)
174 2012-03-05 15:34:47 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: gitian-downloader ;)
175 2012-03-05 15:35:03 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: what if someone picked a random pull request that looked mature, created a merge commit that injected an exploit, then pushed that as Gavin?
176 2012-03-05 15:35:07 <BlueMatt> ofc gitian-downloader has to be downloaded and proven to be secure...
177 2012-03-05 15:35:25 <gavinandresen> gitian-downloader would definitely be good.  A multisig wallet would mitigate that threat, too....
178 2012-03-05 15:35:32 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: nod, but Im hoping gavin would have noticed that...
179 2012-03-05 15:35:34 <BlueMatt> anyway...
180 2012-03-05 15:35:48 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: Id like to see auto-update on win32 via gitian
181 2012-03-05 15:36:16 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'd like to see win32 disappear
182 2012-03-05 15:36:21 <luke-jr> lol
183 2012-03-05 15:36:26 <BlueMatt> well, ok that too
184 2012-03-05 15:37:19 <gavinandresen> Catch y'all later, I've got to eat lunch then head out for a meeting.
185 2012-03-05 15:37:34 <BlueMatt> see ya
186 2012-03-05 15:42:01 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: mndrix opened pull request 917 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/917>
187 2012-03-05 17:54:00 <Raccoon> so which bitcoind flags do I want to run as a local json server?
188 2012-03-05 17:54:21 <Raccoon> or better than flags, .conf
189 2012-03-05 18:21:05 <BlueMatt> server
190 2012-03-05 18:21:08 <BlueMatt> or -server
191 2012-03-05 18:35:07 <[eval]> i can't seem to create a wiki account. also, the front page of the wiki has been spammed with some sort of jewelry/sunglasses spam.
192 2012-03-05 18:36:52 <BlueMatt> ask MagicalTux
193 2012-03-05 18:37:02 <BlueMatt> or maybe one of the other admins
194 2012-03-05 18:38:24 <[eval]> ok :) thanks!
195 2012-03-05 18:38:35 <lianj> https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=history # looks like Zhoucn9999 started on 24th till 26th, and stopped because none deleted it anymore
196 2012-03-05 19:15:18 <TD> i already emailed mark about it
197 2012-03-05 19:15:40 <Diablo-D3> what happened now?
198 2012-03-05 19:15:43 <Diablo-D3> do I have to rape someone?
199 2012-03-05 19:20:14 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, "Bitcoin uses cookies to log in users. You have cookies disabled. Please enable them and try again. "
200 2012-03-05 19:20:17 <phantomcircuit> wiki is broken
201 2012-03-05 19:20:42 <phantomcircuit> im guessing disk full or memcached down
202 2012-03-05 19:22:16 <[eval]> TD: thanks!
203 2012-03-05 19:31:58 <[eval]> hrm
204 2012-03-05 19:32:58 <[eval]> if tx replacement is re-enabled, it'd be good to show whether unconfirmed transactions are final or not
205 2012-03-05 19:33:56 <ziglir> :=0
206 2012-03-05 19:34:02 <ziglir> cool
207 2012-03-05 19:37:08 <TD> [eval]: np
208 2012-03-05 19:48:30 <ziglir> spammer took over the wiki
209 2012-03-05 19:53:00 <luke-jr> Warning: Unknown: open(/www/b/bi/bitcoin.it/sessions/sess_7b762a1881ba9b3800ea1eefdc4921b2, O_RDWR) failed: Read-only file system (30) in Unknown on line 0
210 2012-03-05 19:55:06 <jrmithdobbs> did you lose your target?
211 2012-03-05 19:55:07 <jrmithdobbs> heh
212 2012-03-05 19:55:11 <jrmithdobbs> always fun
213 2012-03-05 19:55:37 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, shared hosting?
214 2012-03-05 20:05:43 <helo> coincidence that -otc wiki is down too?
215 2012-03-05 20:09:44 <phantomcircuit> lol
216 2012-03-05 20:09:52 <phantomcircuit> skype is telling me it's tradehill's birthday
217 2012-03-05 20:09:58 <phantomcircuit> happy birth... oh wait
218 2012-03-05 20:13:18 <phantomcircuit> check?
219 2012-03-05 20:14:12 <mod6> thats good, luke-jr.
220 2012-03-05 20:14:56 <mod6> Good on them too for settling up with you.
221 2012-03-05 20:15:10 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: yes
222 2012-03-05 20:15:30 <luke-jr> I have some euro and other balances too, but no way to withdraw those :/
223 2012-03-05 20:15:57 <mod6> ouch :|
224 2012-03-05 20:17:47 <jrmithdobbs> mod6: i'm sure they'll settle up with people who's names will be recognizable by others as at least seeming credible, i wouldn't bet on much more than that
225 2012-03-05 20:18:11 <jrmithdobbs> but i'm pretty damned pessimistic
226 2012-03-05 20:35:11 <TD> it appears that the wikis stylesheet has vanished
227 2012-03-05 20:35:29 <TD> it's kind of interesting to see articles in web 1.0 style
228 2012-03-05 20:35:35 <TD> all it needs now is a grey background
229 2012-03-05 20:38:28 <BlueMatt> heh
230 2012-03-05 20:43:05 <[eval]> that or some butterfly animated cursors and rainbow unicorns on a pink background... after all, april fool's day is coming up :P
231 2012-03-05 20:43:37 <[eval]> wonder if someone will do an april fool's day BIP like the RFCs that IETF does :P
232 2012-03-05 20:44:04 <Diablo-D3> dont forget the win95 banners
233 2012-03-05 20:44:24 <BlueMatt> but I do think that would be funny
234 2012-03-05 20:44:53 <Diablo-D3> http://adterrasperaspera.com/images/banner1.gif
235 2012-03-05 20:44:55 <Diablo-D3> http://adterrasperaspera.com/images/banner3.gif
236 2012-03-05 20:45:12 <[eval]> though i'd rather spend my limited time trying figure out how to re-enable tx replacement :P
237 2012-03-05 20:45:31 <BlueMatt> heh
238 2012-03-05 20:50:36 <[eval]> playing with unit testing :P
239 2012-03-05 20:50:41 <BlueMatt> nice
240 2012-03-05 20:53:28 <someONEEE> Hello! I'm trying to figure out how the essence of the bitcoin system works. Been reading the white-paper (original doc of satoshi), stackexchange and more yet still didn't get it throughly, technically speaking. I'm also into running my own private network, sort of testing environment, so I'll have to generate my own "genesis" block etc'.
241 2012-03-05 20:53:34 <someONEEE> So, before I'm jumping into others' code (like the official C++ client) - is there any online doc I should be reading that would accelerate this process? Thank you!
242 2012-03-05 20:54:16 <someONEEE> (I'm coming from a developer perspective)
243 2012-03-05 20:55:17 <[eval]> the wiki has a lot of good (but sometimes incomplete/disorganized) info, too
244 2012-03-05 20:55:18 <midnightmagic> someONEEE: unfortunately, there's no one, polished doc which explains stuff in a way that is both intuitive, and fully technically correct. only the source code itself is, unfortunately, your authoritative guide.
245 2012-03-05 20:55:20 <helo> could you just start two nodes on a closed network, using -addnode x.x.x.x on both to add the other?
246 2012-03-05 20:55:30 <helo> and start with cpu mining enabled
247 2012-03-05 20:55:54 <helo> dunno about genesis block...
248 2012-03-05 20:55:55 <[eval]> helo: use -connect instead of -addnode to prevent trying to connect to realnet :P
249 2012-03-05 20:56:55 <helo> that would be fun...
250 2012-03-05 20:59:02 <someONEEE> I see. So I'm going to have to face it the "hard" way. Amazingly interesting thing. Thanks.
251 2012-03-05 21:00:58 <TD> someONEEE: if you have specific questions we'll be happy to answer them
252 2012-03-05 21:01:11 <TD> someONEEE: you may also want to look at bitcoinj. it implements a simpler form of the protocol in java
253 2012-03-05 21:01:21 <TD> i'd say the code is somewhat easier to navigate, though i am biased :)
254 2012-03-05 21:02:20 <lianj> yes, it is :)
255 2012-03-05 21:02:39 <someONEEE> @TD: Thank you that's one. Second, yes, been looking at briefly already, along with others.
256 2012-03-05 21:02:54 <someONEEE> * at it (the java client)
257 2012-03-05 21:08:24 <[eval]> TD: i like your NAC idea and also had the idea that DACs could be used for collaboratively contributing to mining fees
258 2012-03-05 21:09:14 <[eval]> although i like the idea of using a DAC to fund ASIC development too :P
259 2012-03-05 21:10:01 <TD> heh, yeah
260 2012-03-05 21:10:11 <TD> pragmatically kickstarter is probably a better platform for that today
261 2012-03-05 21:10:37 <TD> i look for applications that really benefit from the zero trust paradigm, apps you can't do in any other way
262 2012-03-05 21:10:50 <[eval]> true, but kickstarter doesn't allow DACs, just regular ACs
263 2012-03-05 21:11:29 <TD> right
264 2012-03-05 21:11:41 <BlueMatt> someONEEE: there are some pretty good technical interviews and podcasts which discussed bitcoin
265 2012-03-05 21:11:41 <TD> i've never been totally convinced by the game theory of DACs
266 2012-03-05 21:11:49 <BlueMatt> someONEEE: try looking for omega tau bitcoin (IIRC)
267 2012-03-05 21:11:55 <TD> i may be wrong, but i have a vague feeling there are no real world examples of such a contract
268 2012-03-05 21:12:08 <BlueMatt> yeay, thats the one: http://omegataupodcast.net/2011/03/59-bitcoin-a-digital-decentralized-currency/
269 2012-03-05 21:12:24 <[eval]> TD: i think you're right but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be :)
270 2012-03-05 21:12:53 <jrmithdobbs> TD: define dac/ac?
271 2012-03-05 21:13:01 <TD> [dominant] assurance contract
272 2012-03-05 21:13:06 <TD> as discussed on the wiki
273 2012-03-05 21:13:09 <[eval]> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assurance_contract <--
274 2012-03-05 21:14:10 <TD> other than funding community projects and network security, i haven't come up with any really interesting applications of assurance contracts
275 2012-03-05 21:14:16 <TD> but i'm sure they are out there
276 2012-03-05 21:14:24 <BlueMatt> other than mining?
277 2012-03-05 21:14:32 <[eval]> a DAC could be structured so that in the timelocked transaction, the entrepreneur's collateral can go partially to fees rather than completely to the funders
278 2012-03-05 21:14:39 <[eval]> that way you pay for network fees either way!
279 2012-03-05 21:14:59 <jrmithdobbs> TD: oh this is just the formal definition of things like kickstarter/dev bounties/etc
280 2012-03-05 21:15:07 <TD> could be, yes. but then why take part? the thing that makes it dominant is that the participants get a fee if the contract fails
281 2012-03-05 21:15:13 <TD> if it's not the participants getting a fee, it's not a DAC anymoe
282 2012-03-05 21:15:25 <[eval]> TD: the participants get a fee, but the network also gets a fee
283 2012-03-05 21:15:37 <TD> ok
284 2012-03-05 21:15:41 <someONEEE> @BlueMatt: Listening - thanks!
285 2012-03-05 21:15:58 <TD> one interesting use of ACs might be the real-time provisioning of entertainment, like an internet radio station
286 2012-03-05 21:16:19 <[eval]> true... an hourly (or daily) fundraiser
287 2012-03-05 21:16:27 <TD> the problem with internet radio is it has to be funded with either donations or ads. you can charge for access to the stream, but nothing stops somebody just relaying it for less than what you charge, undercutting you
288 2012-03-05 21:16:50 <TD> you could instead have a radio player that negotiates with other listeners to raise the required amount on a minute-by-minute basis, even
289 2012-03-05 21:17:00 <TD> if the contract fails then the radio station switches off
290 2012-03-05 21:17:12 <BlueMatt> hmm, interesting
291 2012-03-05 21:17:23 <TD> s/radio station/multiplayer video game etc/
292 2012-03-05 21:17:39 <[eval]> this is awesome but i have to cut out, gotta take the oldest to cub scouts :/ still, that's awesome... and for using DACs, it's somewhat similar to "matching funds" in donations
293 2012-03-05 21:18:00 <[eval]> so there's something close to a real world example of DACs
294 2012-03-05 21:18:06 <TD> yeah that's true
295 2012-03-05 21:18:51 <[eval]> so for a donations-only radio station as you describe, you could have a "patron" that runs the DAC and manages the donation to the radio station
296 2012-03-05 21:19:04 <[eval]> and it'd be similar to matching funds
297 2012-03-05 21:20:29 <TD> i guess (human) translations of web pages could be done in a similar fashion
298 2012-03-05 21:20:39 <TD> if you don't speak english you could configure your web browser with some bitcoins
299 2012-03-05 21:20:59 <TD> if you arrive at a page written in english your browser would automatically create a pledge to a translation firm
300 2012-03-05 21:21:11 <ziglir> interesting
301 2012-03-05 21:21:20 <TD> if enough people arrive simultaneously the pledges go over the cost of translation, triggering a real-time submission to a translation firm
302 2012-03-05 21:21:29 <TD> once it's complete the translation becomes available for free to whoever wants it
303 2012-03-05 21:24:23 <BlueMatt> hmm, fun
304 2012-03-05 21:24:58 <jimmy_birer> Hey guys
305 2012-03-05 21:25:03 <jimmy_birer> can someone explain mining to me?
306 2012-03-05 21:25:13 <jimmy_birer> Like,if i mine,who uses that power?
307 2012-03-05 21:25:21 <jimmy_birer> And why do i get coins for it?
308 2012-03-05 21:25:31 <kinlo> you should perhaps read the faq's on mining first
309 2012-03-05 21:25:39 <jimmy_birer> I read but didn`t understand
310 2012-03-05 21:25:41 <jimmy_birer> anything
311 2012-03-05 21:25:50 <jimmy_birer> it would be better if someone told me
312 2012-03-05 21:25:53 <BlueMatt> damn, the wiki is still down, it had a decent mining page
313 2012-03-05 21:26:05 <kinlo> eh, I just wanted to give him the link to that page
314 2012-03-05 21:26:12 <TD> google cache is your friend
315 2012-03-05 21:26:13 <[eval]> i wonder if it'd make sense to pitch DACs-instead-of-matching-funds to philanthropists
316 2012-03-05 21:26:14 <kinlo> that explains why it's not loading :
317 2012-03-05 21:26:36 <[eval]> i could see him and patri friedman using DACs to raise funds for seasteading instead of matching funds :P
318 2012-03-05 21:26:42 <jimmy_birer> google shows me no options
319 2012-03-05 21:26:46 <jimmy_birer> to read from cache
320 2012-03-05 21:26:52 <BlueMatt> TD: not in cache for some reason...
321 2012-03-05 21:27:05 <TD> annoying
322 2012-03-05 21:27:08 <jimmy_birer> So someone explain me what mining does
323 2012-03-05 21:27:17 <[eval]> k, i'm out for real now
324 2012-03-05 21:27:18 <TD> jimmy_birer: if you mine, you are using the electricity. it goes on your bill.
325 2012-03-05 21:27:22 <TD> [eval]: have a good evening
326 2012-03-05 21:27:46 <TD> jimmy_birer: you are turning that electricity into security for all bitcoin users. that's why you are rewarded with money.
327 2012-03-05 21:27:55 <jimmy_birer> Ah
328 2012-03-05 21:27:55 <TD> you provide a useful service -> you get compensated for it
329 2012-03-05 21:28:00 <jimmy_birer> thanks very much
330 2012-03-05 21:28:04 <jimmy_birer> that was all what i asked for
331 2012-03-05 21:28:19 <jimmy_birer> thanks for clearing it TD
332 2012-03-05 21:53:57 <midnightmagic> TD: I'd been very sternly told that an increase in hashrate in the form of a more efficient mining mechanism doesn't equate to additional protection for the network if that mechanism is available to the public, since it's also available to attackers.
333 2012-03-05 21:54:02 <midnightmagic> I lol'd at that..
334 2012-03-05 21:54:13 <TD> hum
335 2012-03-05 21:54:47 <nanotube> well, that depends on the cost of the mechanism.
336 2012-03-05 21:56:39 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: uh
337 2012-03-05 21:56:42 <Diablo-D3> wow thats bullshit
338 2012-03-05 21:57:07 <Diablo-D3> it makes it more difficult because even if the attackers have it, its not helping them enough
339 2012-03-05 21:57:38 <freewil> yeah i think the problem only exists if only the attackers have it
340 2012-03-05 21:57:52 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: the only valid reason for keeping a superior mechanism private would be personal advantage, and that only really works if you can keep it properly secret.
341 2012-03-05 21:57:59 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: oh and
342 2012-03-05 21:58:25 <Diablo-D3> even if you want to accept the premise that attacker growth is linear to global growth for any given enhancement...
343 2012-03-05 21:58:30 <Diablo-D3> (I dont, mind you)
344 2012-03-05 21:58:46 <Diablo-D3> global growth is NOT linear to attacker growth
345 2012-03-05 21:58:54 <Diablo-D3> attackers can produce enhancements that give them the edge
346 2012-03-05 21:58:58 <Diablo-D3> and NOT release them
347 2012-03-05 21:59:08 <copumpkin> *hax0rz
348 2012-03-05 21:59:12 <Diablo-D3> every enhancement people like me produce is one less enhancement they can use against us
349 2012-03-05 21:59:29 <Diablo-D3> there is no such thing as security in obscurity.
350 2012-03-05 21:59:56 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: YES, see that was what I was telling them. The venn diagram of the universe of enhancements wasn't connected to them.
351 2012-03-05 22:00:28 <midnightmagic> oh well.
352 2012-03-05 22:00:38 <Diablo-D3> thank god they have zero influence on bitcoin
353 2012-03-05 22:00:57 <Diablo-D3> otherwise I'd have to beat them with a crowbar while laughing at them, instead of just laughing at them by itself
354 2012-03-05 22:01:19 <midnightmagic> well..  i wouldn't say completely zero. just close to it.
355 2012-03-05 22:07:15 <helo> who are we laughing at?
356 2012-03-05 23:36:25 <someONEEE> BlueMatt: Great review Markus & Gavin. Thanks a lot once again!
357 2012-03-05 23:36:39 <sipa> review of what?
358 2012-03-05 23:36:51 <someONEEE> http://omegataupodcast.net/2011/03/59-bitcoin-a-digital-decentralized-currency/
359 2012-03-05 23:37:08 <someONEEE> Markus reviews Gavin about bitcoin
360 2012-03-05 23:37:36 <sipa> i've heard it before, i believe
361 2012-03-05 23:37:47 <BlueMatt> yea,  its pretty old
362 2012-03-05 23:37:54 <BlueMatt> I just remember it being good, so I always recommend it
363 2012-03-05 23:38:07 <phantomcircuit> review?
364 2012-03-05 23:38:10 <phantomcircuit> you mean interview
365 2012-03-05 23:38:11 <BlueMatt> interview
366 2012-03-05 23:38:30 <someONEEE> Yea, confused